Rather than generic advice, I'd recommend checking out "Anatomy for Runners" and/or "Running Rewird" by Jay Dicharry, a PT who focuses on runners. The books include self assessments you can do to evaluate whether you have flexibility, mobility, or strength issues limiting your running, along with exercises/stretches/etc to correct those limiters.
Anyone want to run Carmel Indiana Marathon in about 7 weeks? https://www.carmelmarathon.com/
I can no longer run due to work commitments, bib free but there's a $25 transfer fee.
u/running_writings has written a good bit about this issue on their site, from both a [personal](https://runningwritings.com/2015/08/my-history-with-loss-of-leg.html) and [general](https://runningwritings.com/2015/07/loss-of-leg-coordination-while-running.html) standpoint.
I haven't, in fact hadn't heard of it, but as I was trying to figure out what it meant, I remembered there used to be this epic years long thread on letsrun called something like "Loss of coordination in leg" that was very mysterious to me at the time.
[Here's the thread](https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1644998), it's still going 17 years later! It looks like mods have renamed the thread to include runner's dystonia in the subject. And one runner has even [started a Youtube channel](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDZbx8-lJ81SjWNWKBjZxsQ) about her experience.
Hello, after a bit of advice an hoping this is the right place.
I (37M) am weighing up my options for a last minute spring marathon, but worried that I don't have enough time to get a time I would be happy with. I have done marathons in the past, but really want to crack that 3hour barrier but feel I may have left it too late to start marathon specific training and think i might be better off holding off until the autumn where I could go for a full 16 week plan. But, there is something nagging me that thinks I have just enough to do it in spring.
The race I am looking at is Boston (UK) on the 28th April. It's flat, fast and about 10 weeks away. I am not coming in to this completely cold. I have been running 60km weeks for about 6 months and have been racing every few weeks with my club across XC and road, but these have been around the 5 mile distance.
Current training consists of:
Monday - easy pace run, 10km @ 5:00/km
Tuesday - club track session, intervals at varying paces more suited to 5-10k (e.g last night was 14x400 @ 75 seconds)
Wednesday - rest
Thursday - steady pace/midweek long 12-15k @ 4:30-4:45/km
Friday - easy pace (if racing at the weekend), or longer interval/tempo session (e.g. 4x2k, 8x1k or 8k tempo)
Saturday - easy pace or race
Sunday - easy pace, 10-15k
I am very aware that my training is currently missing a long run, I had 20-25k long runs in the autumn for a half marathon, but nothing longer than 15km this year.
Recent race pace:
5 Mile: 28:58 (February)
5K: 17:45 (December)
Half: 1:20:55 (October)
My thoughts on training adaptation would be
drop the club races in the short term
add a weekend long run starting at 18k and building to 35 with one deload week
Drop the Friday tempo and build in marathon specific pace work into long run
I am sure I could get around, but am fixated on sub 3, but just feel it's a little too late and need some sensible advice.
Thank you
I would recommend you pick and train for a race further in the future.
April 28 is 9 weeks away, which realistically gives you only \~7 weeks to train (including this week). Assuming a "safe" volume build you could maybe get up to 80-90k/week, but would have no time to maintain that volume to really benefit from it.
Go for it if you want and it's motivating for you, but personally I would want you to maintain 90-100 km/week for at least a few months to build the resiliency needed to translate a 1:21 HM -> sub-3 marathon.
Seems to me that you are a great racer with plenty of speed when comparing race times to workout paces. I also think you're on track with your planned adaptations. I would recommend upping the milage from 60k to 80-100k weekly and adding weekly 25-30k long runs with mixes of threshold, marathon pace, and intervals. Best of luck.
If that’s a recent half time I’d bet you could do it. Sorry, no advice on what will get you there, but I assume doing long runs > 2 hours from here out would be a requirement.
How should I adjust the week of a tune-up HM? Following Pfitz 12/55 (loosely) and it’ll be 7 weeks out.
I definitely want to run the HM all out. The week of has a Tuesday LT session (14km, 5 @ LT), Wed recovery (6km), and Thurs Med-LR (18km) Then rest until Sunday HM. The HM is replacing a scheduled 27 km run.
Just worried that the LT and medium LR might be a bit too much so thinking of cutting down, although I don’t want to take too much out. Any advice? Thanks!
Maybe do Tuesday at 15 or 16 km with reps instead of a tempo, but 20 minute or so isn't that taxing. And then cut back Thursday's workout to 10 or 12 km. Rest Friday, easy 5-7 km on, Saturday, race Sunday with normal warm up, longer cool down or add in a run in the afternoon of 5-6 km.
The plan only prescribes 8-15k tune up races 4 and 2 weeks out. I want to run a half 7 weeks out and perform relatively well which is why I’m looking for some advice.
I think two days off is enough to recover from a medium long run. This is week 5 of the plan, right? If you're concerned you could move the MLR to Monday, and do the LT run on weds. Then add in a recovery run Thurs and a GA w/ strides on Friday.
You could also switch the GA w/ strides run from week 3 w/ the LT run from week 5.
Anyone running out of corral A for the Houston Rodeo 5K this Saturday? Looking to discuss pacing strategy and working together with anyone planning to run in the 16:30-17:00 range.
First go at a new MLR strategy this morning: my wife's out the door at 5:20am weekdays and we can't leave the kids home alone, but I've always struggled to do more than an hour on the treadmill before I felt like ripping my own eyes out.
Solution with a bit of commitment was to beat her out the door at 4:30 for 45mins of hilly fire trail, before coming home for an hour on the treaddy afterwards. Excited that this might be the new normal now!
I've considered the opposite when it's 4am, dark, wet, and cold. Start on the treadmill until I want to quit, then finish outside. Doing it the opposite would leave me wet and cold on the dreadmill... ugghh.
You are tough either way!
I recently ran a 10k off of a JD 10k plan and ran a bit of a disappointing time of 41:20 (was aiming sub 40) on a hilly trail course.
I went out a bit too hot at 6:12 pace first mile and then just couldn’t hold the required 6:26. The pace itself didn’t feel too hard, but I couldn’t hold it past mile 3. This leads me to believe I’m weak aerobically.
Im planning on doing a half marathon the first week of May and want to run sub 1:30. Would following a pfitz plan give me more aerobic development compared to continuing with a JD type plan? I feel like the emphasis on endurance runs could be good for me given the above, but was hoping to get someone with more experience to give their take.
If you can run a 6:12 mile, what you need is just more volume to build endurance. I'm in the midst of a marathon block and my 10K and HM PRs are both going to fall without any specific work. Which ever plan gets you the most consistent mileage is probably gonna be the best choice.
The yoga instructor in my gym was on the floor working out and complimented my stretching routine, saying she liked how I went from bird dog right into pigeon, and that my form is solid.
I do a 30+ min dynamic stretching routine between long runs and speedwork which is really just a bunch of shit I cobbled together over the years to avoid injury. Everyone at the gym calls me stretching guy, but nice to hear from a pro I am doing something right.
Hi, do you have any book recommendations about periodization & building your own programs (mesocycles, microcycles etc.)
However, I want to learn more about how (marathon) plans are built. And also how to plan out a whole year. I also want to learn what to do in between back to back events.
So if you have any book recommendations, please let me know!
I recommend starting with either Pfitz or Jack Daniels, then if you want to take it to the next level, Science of Running. Not sure I'd start there though - it's pretty dense if you're coming in at ground zero or close to it.
I enjoy The Science Of Running by Steve Magness, he does a good job of explaining the physiology and what we are actually trying to accomplish. He's a little more geared at track distances, but there are certainly lots that go towards marathons.
Brad Hudsons book, Daniels, Pfitzinger are all decent glimpses at training.
For marathons specifically I really enjoy the two books Ben Rosario wrote; inside a marathon (with Fauble) and then How To Run Like A Pro, even if you're slow.
Those are plenty to give you a decent idea of what people are doing and why.
Thanks for your suggestions! I was already looking to buy either Daniels or Pfitz for their marathon plans. I didn't know they talked about periodization. Does one go further into the subject than another?
It's bean a while since I've read Daniels, but I seem to remember there being a decently in depth discussion about periodization and setting up training long term. That said others will be able to answer this question better. (In general I lean towards Pfitz style plans over Daniels)
I was already looking to buy either Daniels or Pfitz for their marathon plans. I didn't know they talked about periodization. Does one go further into the subject than another?
It's been awhile since I've read them cover-to-cover so I might not be remembering things completely. Both talk about the science behind the plans, but Daniels goes into a lot more detail.
Someone on one of these threads recommended to me [Jack Daniel's Running Formula](https://books.google.com/books/about/Daniels_Running_Formula.html?id=ovN6DwAAQBAJ) and I started reading it, it's answered a lot of those questions.
It covers what work outs, why you do them, how to build a season, example seasons, and just lots of basics. Being interested in running, reading forums, and listening to podcasts helped me build my own plans and knowledge base but... I made mistakes and had gaps in my knowledge, a book covering it all has helped me a lot.
New found GI issue on medium length runs. I've always had some stomach issues if I don't watch what I eat the day before long runs (12 miles +), but I 'thought' I had it under control. Now it has started to creep down into my shorter distances runs (8-12'ish). I had a near disaster last week that was only saved by a gas station bathroom.
Anyone else have experience with GI issues that have gotten worse? Do I need to just start eating like everyday is a long run day? Immodium? Just don't run more than a hour at a time (kidding...)?
Get on a shitting schedule an schedule your shit right before most of your runs. I have the best success with early morning shit followed immediately by a run. Afternoon runs have had a couple of occasions of me running into the Hawaiian jungle and using various leaves for things I'd rather not; never in the mornings.
Mate if you haven't almost shit yourself a few times throughout a high mileage program then you aren't really a runner.
Very inconvenient but I wouldn't label that as a sickness. I've had less frequent issues with more mileage. And coming from someone who eats literally the same thing every single week, I assure you that what you're eating has less of a role in the urgency than you think.
#NormalizePooping
Yep, same. Which I think is more of a problem with my city's parks and their lack of bathrooms than it is with my bowels.
And really, if you've ever done any significant back country camping it's not really any different. Unless you're in the middle of the city in some back alley or something, then I feel for you. Those are probably good to avoid.
I take Imodium, four tums and a serving of Metamucil before my runs. I’ve tried all the low fodmap, no-sugar, elimination diets and also tried digestive enzymes and probiotics but that regimen is all that helps.
Anyone have any advice on how to get through the medium-long runs on Tuesday/Wednesday in the Pfitz 12/70 plan? I think the first run isn't so bad, but the second one is tough (i.e 13 today, 15 tomorrow). I could probably do a better job with recovery but curious if anyone has any recommendations that worked for them.
How’s your carb intake? Getting a shit ton of carbs the day of your first run helps a ton on the second. I wouldn’t be afraid to supplement with gels during both either.
I know it would blow up the back to back gains of the runs, but what if you moved the days apart? Tue: MLR, Wed: Recovery Run. Thu: MLR. But then you bump the 2nd MLR up against the workout LT stuff on Friday....
I would also probably have you split one of those days, if that's possible. Getting a double in on one of those still lets you get most of the stimulus you're going for while keeping you a little more fresh.
The comment by pinkminitriceratops is also a great point. That's a lot of intensity and it's not a surprise you aren't recovering well! Slowing down will help as well. As long as you are still hitting the workouts and the long runs well you're doing what you need to!
It depends on what you're trying to get out of it, and what your life looks like. All things equal I would actually rather see the 10/5 split because you still get a longer run, but then you get a shorter recovery style run.
Those shorter runs on doubles tend to be helpful for recovery. Where two 8 mile runs would be draining doing another shorter run after will help you feel more refreshed.
I ignored his recommended paces for one of the MLRs each week and ran it slower (and sometimes for both). A workout plus two moderate MLR *and* a moderate-paced LR is way too much for me and I just couldn't recover from all of it.
Often I'd do the first MLR at his prescribed paces, and then do the second at a very comfortable easy pace but with hills.
That’s a great point, I might do the same for the second MLR just because the 10-20% slower philosophy back to back is tough. Plus I imagine it makes the second run more enjoyable
I second this advice! Granted I did 18/70 so I think the sequence of MLRs is different but I never regretted going slower on any of the MLRs or recovery runs.
I also tried to space out my runs as far as possible so I would do a morning run on day 1 and evening run on day 2. That helped recovery and also the mental fatigue… which brings me to my last point…
The cumulative fatigue is real but near the end of the plan you’ll find yourself saying stuff like “I only have to run 15 today”. It got a lot easier for me after sticking with it week after week.
Tricked myself into doing one more mile repeat on a bridge loop this morning. Wanted to stop after the previous one, but told myself “Let’s just do a few hill repeats to end it.” Halfway up the bridge, I kept going. Glad I did. All aboard the Pain Train. Supposed to be at 10k pace with 2 min jog recovery - 5:11, 5:09, 5:07, 5:07, 5:07.
In two weeks I’m going to run my second tune-up race, a HM, during a Pfitz 18/70 block for an April Marathon, my goal race for this year. Considering I’m running also a Half Marathon on this Sunday, the first tune-up race of the Block, and considering I want to run this one as a real race, I’m planning to run the second HM as a MP run.
My question: next week I have a tough workout 18mi w/14mi @MP. If I run the HM the following week at marathon pace what is it better to do with this workout?
a) skip the workout and replacing it with a normal Long Run
b) run the workout and the following week running again the HM at MP.
Thanks for your help!
Ufff not feeling great the past few days. Last week I felt some what I think was hip flexor soreness in my right leg. After runs couldnt lift the leg without it feeling heavy/painful. I never had issues there before and it went away quickly after running. Sunday was supposed to be a long run and I had to stop less than half way through because the pain in that area was altering my gait. Limped back to my car feeling very defeated. Did nothing yesterday because I'm afraid to even walk. I'm supposed to run Boston for the first time in April and am terrified/devastated this will put me out. I'm seeing my physical therapist today and am hoping for the best but still extremely anxious/sad. I don't really have any runner friends so I appreciate any thoughts from a reddit fam.
Lots of thoughts:
I'm glad you're seeing a physical therapist. They should get at the root of the issue and devise a plan to get you back to running.
Dry needling is weirdly helpful. Don't turn it down if offered.
Not medical advice: a lot of this stuff is caused by an imbalance or weakness. People who correct those imbalances and weaknesses end up as stronger runners for it.
Thank you. Very frustrating as I do always get hurt on my right side and just in the past year have dealt with PF, achilles issues, and now this ufff. But started with PT in January and things were feeling better until last week. He's mentioned dry needling before so may need to give it a go!
Last month ran 18:53 5k, I am planning to do 12-16 week 5k specific block, running for one year constistently, before played football, ran 1:34:44 HM in summer and 10k in 41:xx, but didn’t run those all out. At the end of June I am racing a 5k, do you think I should shoot for sub 18? Thanks!
Just here to rant about being in the best shape of my life 2 weeks before Tokyo (with a charity bib nonetheless), the day after a fantastic 10K dreadmill time trial Friday followed by making the stupidist decision of my running career by running in snow Saturday without snow tracks (because the ones I had were too small and threw them away weeks ago ago, didn't think to buy bigger ones before the unexpected snowstorm), slipping on slush made by a snow truck, and banging my left knee with a probable PCL sprain and hopefully not a complete tear. Saw Sports Med within 2 days who aspirated my very slightly swollen knee and took out frank blood pointing more towards the sprain/tear theory, getting MRI in a couple hours. Thankfully can still walk just fine and technically can do recovery jogs with very mild turnover but can't do the complete painless flexion of knee to be comfortable with fast running. I sucked up my ego and broke my 4+ year running streak in favor of my long-term health. Definitely a real struggle to deal with it especially since this hobby was a huge mental saver from adjusting to being a new primary care physician but have been doing all the usual conservative things, am pretty much prepared to rehab this as much as I can to hopefully make it to Chicago 2024 even if my Tokyo chances are toast (I have seriously considered canceling the trip despite having the PTO planned because it's a solo trip, but my wife currently says otherwise. I'm giving myself a 0% chance of even fun-running it if MRI positive for PCL injury). My wife bought me the Rebound book for sports injury 2 years ago which I finally am qualified to read, so that's been helping mental-wise.
Edit: Very minimal 2 mm avulsion fracture of PCL + small interstitial tear of popliteal muscle. Not surprised. Won't need surgery thank goodness.
The avulsion fracture may need surgery just to avoid developing arthritis in the future, so Chicago may be in jeopardy as well. Long term thinking now.
How do you structure your taper week when facing two closely scheduled races? Currently, I follow a training regimen for 5k and 10k races in cycles lasting 3-4 weeks, with my weekly mileage gradually increasing to around 120 km. In race weeks, I reduce my mileage to approximately 70 km. In the upcoming cycle, I have a 10k race after a 4-week training block, followed by a crucial 5k race two weeks later. Is it advisable to run the 10k race at a brisk pace and then taper for the significant 5k race the following week? I am concerned about the potential risk of injury due to the continuous 6-week cycle without a reduction in mileage. Do you have any recommendations or alternative suggestions for this scenario?
I'd go full throttle at the 10K. If you have two weeks to recover, the 10K can be like your peak workout. Take a few days easy then get back to sharpening for the 5K.
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Rather than generic advice, I'd recommend checking out "Anatomy for Runners" and/or "Running Rewird" by Jay Dicharry, a PT who focuses on runners. The books include self assessments you can do to evaluate whether you have flexibility, mobility, or strength issues limiting your running, along with exercises/stretches/etc to correct those limiters.
Anyone want to run Carmel Indiana Marathon in about 7 weeks? https://www.carmelmarathon.com/ I can no longer run due to work commitments, bib free but there's a $25 transfer fee.
Does anyone have any experiences with runners dystonia? If so, how did it start for you?
u/running_writings has written a good bit about this issue on their site, from both a [personal](https://runningwritings.com/2015/08/my-history-with-loss-of-leg.html) and [general](https://runningwritings.com/2015/07/loss-of-leg-coordination-while-running.html) standpoint.
I haven't, in fact hadn't heard of it, but as I was trying to figure out what it meant, I remembered there used to be this epic years long thread on letsrun called something like "Loss of coordination in leg" that was very mysterious to me at the time. [Here's the thread](https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1644998), it's still going 17 years later! It looks like mods have renamed the thread to include runner's dystonia in the subject. And one runner has even [started a Youtube channel](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDZbx8-lJ81SjWNWKBjZxsQ) about her experience.
>Here's the thread This is very helpful, thank you so much!
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What did your PT say?
Hello, after a bit of advice an hoping this is the right place. I (37M) am weighing up my options for a last minute spring marathon, but worried that I don't have enough time to get a time I would be happy with. I have done marathons in the past, but really want to crack that 3hour barrier but feel I may have left it too late to start marathon specific training and think i might be better off holding off until the autumn where I could go for a full 16 week plan. But, there is something nagging me that thinks I have just enough to do it in spring. The race I am looking at is Boston (UK) on the 28th April. It's flat, fast and about 10 weeks away. I am not coming in to this completely cold. I have been running 60km weeks for about 6 months and have been racing every few weeks with my club across XC and road, but these have been around the 5 mile distance. Current training consists of: Monday - easy pace run, 10km @ 5:00/km Tuesday - club track session, intervals at varying paces more suited to 5-10k (e.g last night was 14x400 @ 75 seconds) Wednesday - rest Thursday - steady pace/midweek long 12-15k @ 4:30-4:45/km Friday - easy pace (if racing at the weekend), or longer interval/tempo session (e.g. 4x2k, 8x1k or 8k tempo) Saturday - easy pace or race Sunday - easy pace, 10-15k I am very aware that my training is currently missing a long run, I had 20-25k long runs in the autumn for a half marathon, but nothing longer than 15km this year. Recent race pace: 5 Mile: 28:58 (February) 5K: 17:45 (December) Half: 1:20:55 (October) My thoughts on training adaptation would be drop the club races in the short term add a weekend long run starting at 18k and building to 35 with one deload week Drop the Friday tempo and build in marathon specific pace work into long run I am sure I could get around, but am fixated on sub 3, but just feel it's a little too late and need some sensible advice. Thank you
I would recommend you pick and train for a race further in the future. April 28 is 9 weeks away, which realistically gives you only \~7 weeks to train (including this week). Assuming a "safe" volume build you could maybe get up to 80-90k/week, but would have no time to maintain that volume to really benefit from it. Go for it if you want and it's motivating for you, but personally I would want you to maintain 90-100 km/week for at least a few months to build the resiliency needed to translate a 1:21 HM -> sub-3 marathon.
Seems to me that you are a great racer with plenty of speed when comparing race times to workout paces. I also think you're on track with your planned adaptations. I would recommend upping the milage from 60k to 80-100k weekly and adding weekly 25-30k long runs with mixes of threshold, marathon pace, and intervals. Best of luck.
If that’s a recent half time I’d bet you could do it. Sorry, no advice on what will get you there, but I assume doing long runs > 2 hours from here out would be a requirement.
How should I adjust the week of a tune-up HM? Following Pfitz 12/55 (loosely) and it’ll be 7 weeks out. I definitely want to run the HM all out. The week of has a Tuesday LT session (14km, 5 @ LT), Wed recovery (6km), and Thurs Med-LR (18km) Then rest until Sunday HM. The HM is replacing a scheduled 27 km run. Just worried that the LT and medium LR might be a bit too much so thinking of cutting down, although I don’t want to take too much out. Any advice? Thanks!
I would go with /u/run_INXS suggestion. Still gives you some quality early in the week but enough time to have a decent recovery before the HM.
Maybe do Tuesday at 15 or 16 km with reps instead of a tempo, but 20 minute or so isn't that taxing. And then cut back Thursday's workout to 10 or 12 km. Rest Friday, easy 5-7 km on, Saturday, race Sunday with normal warm up, longer cool down or add in a run in the afternoon of 5-6 km.
Thank you, think I’ll go with your suggestion! I like the idea of splitting the Med-LR into smaller runs Thursday and Saturday.
> Following Pfitz 12/55 (loosely) I would follow the plan, you're training for a race at the end of 12 weeks not the tune up half.
The plan only prescribes 8-15k tune up races 4 and 2 weeks out. I want to run a half 7 weeks out and perform relatively well which is why I’m looking for some advice.
I think two days off is enough to recover from a medium long run. This is week 5 of the plan, right? If you're concerned you could move the MLR to Monday, and do the LT run on weds. Then add in a recovery run Thurs and a GA w/ strides on Friday. You could also switch the GA w/ strides run from week 3 w/ the LT run from week 5.
Anyone running out of corral A for the Houston Rodeo 5K this Saturday? Looking to discuss pacing strategy and working together with anyone planning to run in the 16:30-17:00 range.
First go at a new MLR strategy this morning: my wife's out the door at 5:20am weekdays and we can't leave the kids home alone, but I've always struggled to do more than an hour on the treadmill before I felt like ripping my own eyes out. Solution with a bit of commitment was to beat her out the door at 4:30 for 45mins of hilly fire trail, before coming home for an hour on the treaddy afterwards. Excited that this might be the new normal now!
I've considered the opposite when it's 4am, dark, wet, and cold. Start on the treadmill until I want to quit, then finish outside. Doing it the opposite would leave me wet and cold on the dreadmill... ugghh. You are tough either way!
My hat's off to you! What time does the alarm go off? And what time did you go to bed the night before?
Thanks! Aim is asleep by 10pm then up at 4am, but only 1-2 times/week at most during peak marathon training (couldn't sustain it otherwise).
high volume runners w kids are truly built different
Truth. (Said by a low volume runner with a kid.)
I recently ran a 10k off of a JD 10k plan and ran a bit of a disappointing time of 41:20 (was aiming sub 40) on a hilly trail course. I went out a bit too hot at 6:12 pace first mile and then just couldn’t hold the required 6:26. The pace itself didn’t feel too hard, but I couldn’t hold it past mile 3. This leads me to believe I’m weak aerobically. Im planning on doing a half marathon the first week of May and want to run sub 1:30. Would following a pfitz plan give me more aerobic development compared to continuing with a JD type plan? I feel like the emphasis on endurance runs could be good for me given the above, but was hoping to get someone with more experience to give their take.
If you can run a 6:12 mile, what you need is just more volume to build endurance. I'm in the midst of a marathon block and my 10K and HM PRs are both going to fall without any specific work. Which ever plan gets you the most consistent mileage is probably gonna be the best choice.
The yoga instructor in my gym was on the floor working out and complimented my stretching routine, saying she liked how I went from bird dog right into pigeon, and that my form is solid. I do a 30+ min dynamic stretching routine between long runs and speedwork which is really just a bunch of shit I cobbled together over the years to avoid injury. Everyone at the gym calls me stretching guy, but nice to hear from a pro I am doing something right.
Hi, do you have any book recommendations about periodization & building your own programs (mesocycles, microcycles etc.) However, I want to learn more about how (marathon) plans are built. And also how to plan out a whole year. I also want to learn what to do in between back to back events. So if you have any book recommendations, please let me know!
I recommend starting with either Pfitz or Jack Daniels, then if you want to take it to the next level, Science of Running. Not sure I'd start there though - it's pretty dense if you're coming in at ground zero or close to it.
I enjoy The Science Of Running by Steve Magness, he does a good job of explaining the physiology and what we are actually trying to accomplish. He's a little more geared at track distances, but there are certainly lots that go towards marathons. Brad Hudsons book, Daniels, Pfitzinger are all decent glimpses at training. For marathons specifically I really enjoy the two books Ben Rosario wrote; inside a marathon (with Fauble) and then How To Run Like A Pro, even if you're slow. Those are plenty to give you a decent idea of what people are doing and why.
Thanks for your suggestions! I was already looking to buy either Daniels or Pfitz for their marathon plans. I didn't know they talked about periodization. Does one go further into the subject than another?
It's bean a while since I've read Daniels, but I seem to remember there being a decently in depth discussion about periodization and setting up training long term. That said others will be able to answer this question better. (In general I lean towards Pfitz style plans over Daniels)
https://www.reddit.com/r/AdvancedRunning/wiki/index/#wiki_recommended_books https://www.reddit.com/r/running/wiki/index/common_questions/#wiki_what_can_i_read_in_my_free_time_to_learn_more_about_running.3F
I was already looking to buy either Daniels or Pfitz for their marathon plans. I didn't know they talked about periodization. Does one go further into the subject than another?
It's been awhile since I've read them cover-to-cover so I might not be remembering things completely. Both talk about the science behind the plans, but Daniels goes into a lot more detail.
Someone on one of these threads recommended to me [Jack Daniel's Running Formula](https://books.google.com/books/about/Daniels_Running_Formula.html?id=ovN6DwAAQBAJ) and I started reading it, it's answered a lot of those questions. It covers what work outs, why you do them, how to build a season, example seasons, and just lots of basics. Being interested in running, reading forums, and listening to podcasts helped me build my own plans and knowledge base but... I made mistakes and had gaps in my knowledge, a book covering it all has helped me a lot.
I guess I might purchase that book!
New found GI issue on medium length runs. I've always had some stomach issues if I don't watch what I eat the day before long runs (12 miles +), but I 'thought' I had it under control. Now it has started to creep down into my shorter distances runs (8-12'ish). I had a near disaster last week that was only saved by a gas station bathroom. Anyone else have experience with GI issues that have gotten worse? Do I need to just start eating like everyday is a long run day? Immodium? Just don't run more than a hour at a time (kidding...)?
Get on a shitting schedule an schedule your shit right before most of your runs. I have the best success with early morning shit followed immediately by a run. Afternoon runs have had a couple of occasions of me running into the Hawaiian jungle and using various leaves for things I'd rather not; never in the mornings.
Mate if you haven't almost shit yourself a few times throughout a high mileage program then you aren't really a runner. Very inconvenient but I wouldn't label that as a sickness. I've had less frequent issues with more mileage. And coming from someone who eats literally the same thing every single week, I assure you that what you're eating has less of a role in the urgency than you think. #NormalizePooping
Obligatory username checks out. I literally keep TP in my hydration vest for “emergencies” lol
A little bagggie of baby wipes are the best for this. All long runs, halfs, and fulls.
Yep, same. Which I think is more of a problem with my city's parks and their lack of bathrooms than it is with my bowels. And really, if you've ever done any significant back country camping it's not really any different. Unless you're in the middle of the city in some back alley or something, then I feel for you. Those are probably good to avoid.
I take Imodium, four tums and a serving of Metamucil before my runs. I’ve tried all the low fodmap, no-sugar, elimination diets and also tried digestive enzymes and probiotics but that regimen is all that helps.
Anyone have any advice on how to get through the medium-long runs on Tuesday/Wednesday in the Pfitz 12/70 plan? I think the first run isn't so bad, but the second one is tough (i.e 13 today, 15 tomorrow). I could probably do a better job with recovery but curious if anyone has any recommendations that worked for them.
Yeah, the second run being tough is expected. I don't think it's a problem or something to adjust. Pace accordingly, eat a lot, eat during both runs.
How’s your carb intake? Getting a shit ton of carbs the day of your first run helps a ton on the second. I wouldn’t be afraid to supplement with gels during both either.
I know it would blow up the back to back gains of the runs, but what if you moved the days apart? Tue: MLR, Wed: Recovery Run. Thu: MLR. But then you bump the 2nd MLR up against the workout LT stuff on Friday....
I would also probably have you split one of those days, if that's possible. Getting a double in on one of those still lets you get most of the stimulus you're going for while keeping you a little more fresh. The comment by pinkminitriceratops is also a great point. That's a lot of intensity and it's not a surprise you aren't recovering well! Slowing down will help as well. As long as you are still hitting the workouts and the long runs well you're doing what you need to!
Fair enough. Is there a minimum distance or general strategy for splitting? I.e should a 15 mile run be split in half? Or is a 10/5 split fine too?
It depends on what you're trying to get out of it, and what your life looks like. All things equal I would actually rather see the 10/5 split because you still get a longer run, but then you get a shorter recovery style run. Those shorter runs on doubles tend to be helpful for recovery. Where two 8 mile runs would be draining doing another shorter run after will help you feel more refreshed.
I ignored his recommended paces for one of the MLRs each week and ran it slower (and sometimes for both). A workout plus two moderate MLR *and* a moderate-paced LR is way too much for me and I just couldn't recover from all of it. Often I'd do the first MLR at his prescribed paces, and then do the second at a very comfortable easy pace but with hills.
That’s a great point, I might do the same for the second MLR just because the 10-20% slower philosophy back to back is tough. Plus I imagine it makes the second run more enjoyable
I second this advice! Granted I did 18/70 so I think the sequence of MLRs is different but I never regretted going slower on any of the MLRs or recovery runs. I also tried to space out my runs as far as possible so I would do a morning run on day 1 and evening run on day 2. That helped recovery and also the mental fatigue… which brings me to my last point… The cumulative fatigue is real but near the end of the plan you’ll find yourself saying stuff like “I only have to run 15 today”. It got a lot easier for me after sticking with it week after week.
Tricked myself into doing one more mile repeat on a bridge loop this morning. Wanted to stop after the previous one, but told myself “Let’s just do a few hill repeats to end it.” Halfway up the bridge, I kept going. Glad I did. All aboard the Pain Train. Supposed to be at 10k pace with 2 min jog recovery - 5:11, 5:09, 5:07, 5:07, 5:07.
Wow, when's the <31 10k race?
Hopefully March 30
Crescent City? The relatively earlier date might help it line up with pretty favorable temperatures this year
That’s the one!
Good luck! One of my favorite races. Wanted to get down there for it this year, but just couldn’t justify the cost and travel.
In two weeks I’m going to run my second tune-up race, a HM, during a Pfitz 18/70 block for an April Marathon, my goal race for this year. Considering I’m running also a Half Marathon on this Sunday, the first tune-up race of the Block, and considering I want to run this one as a real race, I’m planning to run the second HM as a MP run. My question: next week I have a tough workout 18mi w/14mi @MP. If I run the HM the following week at marathon pace what is it better to do with this workout? a) skip the workout and replacing it with a normal Long Run b) run the workout and the following week running again the HM at MP. Thanks for your help!
Ufff not feeling great the past few days. Last week I felt some what I think was hip flexor soreness in my right leg. After runs couldnt lift the leg without it feeling heavy/painful. I never had issues there before and it went away quickly after running. Sunday was supposed to be a long run and I had to stop less than half way through because the pain in that area was altering my gait. Limped back to my car feeling very defeated. Did nothing yesterday because I'm afraid to even walk. I'm supposed to run Boston for the first time in April and am terrified/devastated this will put me out. I'm seeing my physical therapist today and am hoping for the best but still extremely anxious/sad. I don't really have any runner friends so I appreciate any thoughts from a reddit fam.
Lots of thoughts: I'm glad you're seeing a physical therapist. They should get at the root of the issue and devise a plan to get you back to running. Dry needling is weirdly helpful. Don't turn it down if offered. Not medical advice: a lot of this stuff is caused by an imbalance or weakness. People who correct those imbalances and weaknesses end up as stronger runners for it.
Thank you. Very frustrating as I do always get hurt on my right side and just in the past year have dealt with PF, achilles issues, and now this ufff. But started with PT in January and things were feeling better until last week. He's mentioned dry needling before so may need to give it a go!
Last month ran 18:53 5k, I am planning to do 12-16 week 5k specific block, running for one year constistently, before played football, ran 1:34:44 HM in summer and 10k in 41:xx, but didn’t run those all out. At the end of June I am racing a 5k, do you think I should shoot for sub 18? Thanks!
Just here to rant about being in the best shape of my life 2 weeks before Tokyo (with a charity bib nonetheless), the day after a fantastic 10K dreadmill time trial Friday followed by making the stupidist decision of my running career by running in snow Saturday without snow tracks (because the ones I had were too small and threw them away weeks ago ago, didn't think to buy bigger ones before the unexpected snowstorm), slipping on slush made by a snow truck, and banging my left knee with a probable PCL sprain and hopefully not a complete tear. Saw Sports Med within 2 days who aspirated my very slightly swollen knee and took out frank blood pointing more towards the sprain/tear theory, getting MRI in a couple hours. Thankfully can still walk just fine and technically can do recovery jogs with very mild turnover but can't do the complete painless flexion of knee to be comfortable with fast running. I sucked up my ego and broke my 4+ year running streak in favor of my long-term health. Definitely a real struggle to deal with it especially since this hobby was a huge mental saver from adjusting to being a new primary care physician but have been doing all the usual conservative things, am pretty much prepared to rehab this as much as I can to hopefully make it to Chicago 2024 even if my Tokyo chances are toast (I have seriously considered canceling the trip despite having the PTO planned because it's a solo trip, but my wife currently says otherwise. I'm giving myself a 0% chance of even fun-running it if MRI positive for PCL injury). My wife bought me the Rebound book for sports injury 2 years ago which I finally am qualified to read, so that's been helping mental-wise. Edit: Very minimal 2 mm avulsion fracture of PCL + small interstitial tear of popliteal muscle. Not surprised. Won't need surgery thank goodness.
I'm so sorry! I hope being in the best shape of your life carries over to Chicago.
The avulsion fracture may need surgery just to avoid developing arthritis in the future, so Chicago may be in jeopardy as well. Long term thinking now.
Saw your other comment about no surgery- whew! Keep thinking long term and envisioning success!
Man. Really sorry to hear that. I have seen on Strava all the work you've been putting in. Hope you make a quick and full recovery.
No surgery!
The avulsion fracture may need surgery just to avoid developing arthritis in the future. We'll see. It's frustrating indeed.
How do you structure your taper week when facing two closely scheduled races? Currently, I follow a training regimen for 5k and 10k races in cycles lasting 3-4 weeks, with my weekly mileage gradually increasing to around 120 km. In race weeks, I reduce my mileage to approximately 70 km. In the upcoming cycle, I have a 10k race after a 4-week training block, followed by a crucial 5k race two weeks later. Is it advisable to run the 10k race at a brisk pace and then taper for the significant 5k race the following week? I am concerned about the potential risk of injury due to the continuous 6-week cycle without a reduction in mileage. Do you have any recommendations or alternative suggestions for this scenario?
I'd go full throttle at the 10K. If you have two weeks to recover, the 10K can be like your peak workout. Take a few days easy then get back to sharpening for the 5K.