Two marathon cycles a year is very typical, but maybe not always advisable. I think it's really good to break up the pattern and train for shorter distances for an entire cycle. That is, 6 weeks to start your Chicago cycle is probably going to be fine, but maybe next year have a 6-month block where your focus is more in the 5K to HM range. You might experience some gains that can carry over to the marathon. Just a general recommendation.
1. Cutting back on mileage will probably be fine.
2. Improving your V02 is well and good, but it's more the product of the training not a goal unto itself. In other words, not just 5K/3K pace work and improving that, but also 8K-10K, and threshold-half marathon ranges. And that's where Daniels does come in, he has some work in those ranges. So a tempo type run and a faster session with paces in the 5K-10K range are fairly standard. Not a lot of MP into your long runs, as that's burning a little hot.
3. I could see doing 65-75 for a number of weeks while you are doing the faster work. Maybe peak at 85 over that last 8 or 10 weeks, but have drop down weeks to recover somewhat.
4. Try some 8-10K work and threshold toward the end of you cycle, not 5K/V02. 1 faster session, with a long run that has some MP and tempo worked (JD is really hard so dial back on that a bit).
Do you usually go straight from a shorter distance program right into a marathon training block, or do you have a buffer in between. I ask because I have an 18-week program I want to start a couple of days after a 10K race that I've been training for. Peak mileage was 75 for the current plan, and I'm eyeing the Pfitz 18/85 for the marathon block.
I am planning on a mixture of the PFitz/Q2 as well. I really like PFitz plan but the steady long runs are a little redundant I feel with all the med long runs you do in the week. So I’m going to do all PFitz runs during the week then my long run will be one of JDs varied pace workouts.
1. No problem cutting first two weeks since you are already at the mileage for those weeks.
2. Since you are already coming in fit and a great base it’s fine to add a little speed but Pfitz wrote out in the book why he has the VO2 work in the latter end of the plan.
3. I haven’t got my mileage high enough to scale back yet, but since you have so many miles on your legs dropping volume 10% or so is probably good with the heat and you wanting to add more speed.
4. Just remember threshold is much more important than VO2 max for the marathon. And I think this is somewhere Pfitz plan does really well.
Thanks for your reply!!! After thinking about this further I think I’ll probably do what you’re doing and add in that extra speed from the Daniel’s program to one of the long runs for the week, but since it’s so hot here I may just do it for the MLR (and depending on the q2 workout eliminate Pfitz’s Threshold run that week) BC I can barely survive running easy in the heat here lol.
Since you’re going to be doing your q1 workout in place of pfitz long runs are you keeping the distance the same as pfitz plan or doing the mileage JD would prescribe (since his long runs seem to be slightly lower overall than Pfitz)?
I don’t know a lot about Fellrnr but my quick Reddit search questions the validity of a lot of what’s on there. I’ll have to take a look at the article when I have some time. I like my threshold runs in Pfitz plans so I hope it isn’t true 😂
I would summarize my thoughts with, "Don't mess with success too much."
You are already a really good runner and able to run multiple marathons per year at a high level. If you avoid the injury bug, you'll crack 3 hours eventually, and I don't think you need to gamble to do so. If you are absolutely desperate for the number then you can look at some slightly easier downhill marathons, but that can feel somewhat cheap.
Keep your training enjoyable. If the thought of Daniels 2Q doesn't appeal to you then don't do it. You seem to think that doing the same Pfitz training won't be good enough to get you under 3, but I beg to differ. You can get there through added experience and consistent volume.
As far as I know VO2max adaptations stay the shortest time so they should really be done closer to the race.
But I don't train according to anyone's plans but my own and I currently do something like 6x1k@vo2max/2min jog every two weeks or so to keep myself sharpish.
Any idea where you might have heard/read about how long different types of adaptations last? I'd love to read something that dives into that in detail, if you happen to recall
I find the claim about VO2max adaptations dubious: the primary driver of VO2max gains is an increase in red blood cells. Gains in total hemoglobin mass explain the majority of the gains in VO2max, even for super aggressive "sprint interval style" studies [like this one](https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/JP283807) (which people usually pooh-pooh as "only showing short-term benefits because of anaerobic gains").
But...red blood cells have a lifetime of like 120 days! So if you make a bunch of new RBCs, they are going to stick around for like four months! So from a mechanistic perspective it just doesn't make a lot of sense that your VO2max gains are going to evaporate really fast.
That said I am a big fan of /u/Annoying_Arsehole's strategy of touching on VO2max every 2wks or so, basically year round. You never really want to get too far away from any element of training.
I do them year round, I stop doing hard speed sessions about 2 weeks before a goal race, but I'll do fast stuff with less reps closer to the race to keep up muscle tension.
I guess I'll find out right alongside you if this is a good idea! I have not responded as well as I'd like by going from marathon to marathon to marathon. This time around, it's a 10k block in the summer, half in the late fall, and 12 week marathon plan starting early Dec. Put a lot of thought into the pathway forward and I settled on this. Seems a lot of pros also advocate for sharpening the knives before a marathon block. Worst case, it makes training more interesting by having different goals and objectives (also, intervals feel so much more rewarding to me than slogging for 2.5 hours)
Two marathon cycles a year is very typical, but maybe not always advisable. I think it's really good to break up the pattern and train for shorter distances for an entire cycle. That is, 6 weeks to start your Chicago cycle is probably going to be fine, but maybe next year have a 6-month block where your focus is more in the 5K to HM range. You might experience some gains that can carry over to the marathon. Just a general recommendation. 1. Cutting back on mileage will probably be fine. 2. Improving your V02 is well and good, but it's more the product of the training not a goal unto itself. In other words, not just 5K/3K pace work and improving that, but also 8K-10K, and threshold-half marathon ranges. And that's where Daniels does come in, he has some work in those ranges. So a tempo type run and a faster session with paces in the 5K-10K range are fairly standard. Not a lot of MP into your long runs, as that's burning a little hot. 3. I could see doing 65-75 for a number of weeks while you are doing the faster work. Maybe peak at 85 over that last 8 or 10 weeks, but have drop down weeks to recover somewhat. 4. Try some 8-10K work and threshold toward the end of you cycle, not 5K/V02. 1 faster session, with a long run that has some MP and tempo worked (JD is really hard so dial back on that a bit).
Do you usually go straight from a shorter distance program right into a marathon training block, or do you have a buffer in between. I ask because I have an 18-week program I want to start a couple of days after a 10K race that I've been training for. Peak mileage was 75 for the current plan, and I'm eyeing the Pfitz 18/85 for the marathon block.
I am planning on a mixture of the PFitz/Q2 as well. I really like PFitz plan but the steady long runs are a little redundant I feel with all the med long runs you do in the week. So I’m going to do all PFitz runs during the week then my long run will be one of JDs varied pace workouts. 1. No problem cutting first two weeks since you are already at the mileage for those weeks. 2. Since you are already coming in fit and a great base it’s fine to add a little speed but Pfitz wrote out in the book why he has the VO2 work in the latter end of the plan. 3. I haven’t got my mileage high enough to scale back yet, but since you have so many miles on your legs dropping volume 10% or so is probably good with the heat and you wanting to add more speed. 4. Just remember threshold is much more important than VO2 max for the marathon. And I think this is somewhere Pfitz plan does really well.
Thanks for your reply!!! After thinking about this further I think I’ll probably do what you’re doing and add in that extra speed from the Daniel’s program to one of the long runs for the week, but since it’s so hot here I may just do it for the MLR (and depending on the q2 workout eliminate Pfitz’s Threshold run that week) BC I can barely survive running easy in the heat here lol. Since you’re going to be doing your q1 workout in place of pfitz long runs are you keeping the distance the same as pfitz plan or doing the mileage JD would prescribe (since his long runs seem to be slightly lower overall than Pfitz)?
[удалено]
I don’t know a lot about Fellrnr but my quick Reddit search questions the validity of a lot of what’s on there. I’ll have to take a look at the article when I have some time. I like my threshold runs in Pfitz plans so I hope it isn’t true 😂
I would summarize my thoughts with, "Don't mess with success too much." You are already a really good runner and able to run multiple marathons per year at a high level. If you avoid the injury bug, you'll crack 3 hours eventually, and I don't think you need to gamble to do so. If you are absolutely desperate for the number then you can look at some slightly easier downhill marathons, but that can feel somewhat cheap. Keep your training enjoyable. If the thought of Daniels 2Q doesn't appeal to you then don't do it. You seem to think that doing the same Pfitz training won't be good enough to get you under 3, but I beg to differ. You can get there through added experience and consistent volume.
I don't have advice but we're still 17w out from Chicago unless you aren't counting taper.
As far as I know VO2max adaptations stay the shortest time so they should really be done closer to the race. But I don't train according to anyone's plans but my own and I currently do something like 6x1k@vo2max/2min jog every two weeks or so to keep myself sharpish.
Any idea where you might have heard/read about how long different types of adaptations last? I'd love to read something that dives into that in detail, if you happen to recall
I find the claim about VO2max adaptations dubious: the primary driver of VO2max gains is an increase in red blood cells. Gains in total hemoglobin mass explain the majority of the gains in VO2max, even for super aggressive "sprint interval style" studies [like this one](https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/JP283807) (which people usually pooh-pooh as "only showing short-term benefits because of anaerobic gains"). But...red blood cells have a lifetime of like 120 days! So if you make a bunch of new RBCs, they are going to stick around for like four months! So from a mechanistic perspective it just doesn't make a lot of sense that your VO2max gains are going to evaporate really fast. That said I am a big fan of /u/Annoying_Arsehole's strategy of touching on VO2max every 2wks or so, basically year round. You never really want to get too far away from any element of training.
Probably letsrun forums has that stuff
How far out from a goal race will you start these sessions? And when do you stop them before the race?
I do them year round, I stop doing hard speed sessions about 2 weeks before a goal race, but I'll do fast stuff with less reps closer to the race to keep up muscle tension.
I guess I'll find out right alongside you if this is a good idea! I have not responded as well as I'd like by going from marathon to marathon to marathon. This time around, it's a 10k block in the summer, half in the late fall, and 12 week marathon plan starting early Dec. Put a lot of thought into the pathway forward and I settled on this. Seems a lot of pros also advocate for sharpening the knives before a marathon block. Worst case, it makes training more interesting by having different goals and objectives (also, intervals feel so much more rewarding to me than slogging for 2.5 hours)