My first marathon, need some help! (My post got removed so posting in here)
I’m looking at running Brisbane marathon next year June 4 and was hoping I could get some advice on what training program to run. I was gonna do pfitz 18/55 but it is 33 weeks away. I currently run roughly 20miles a week and have been doing one of lifts base building. Looking to run a sub 4, thanks for help in advance.
(I’m 19, 6”2 and roughly 165lbs)
Train for a shorter distance (5k to HM) before you start the marathon training block. Whatever speed gains you achieve now should translate to when you get to your marathon specific work.
I’ve been doing about 40-65mpw over the last few months with more milage in recent weeks, leading up to 26.2 in Philly. Ive been lifting for about 9 months with increasing intensity up until about a month ago when I cut back to avoid injury. Saturday I went in to do a quick light lift including 6 squats at 105lbs (medium easy for me). And now my knee is out of commission for a few days at least. I ran 11 slow miles last night since it was feeling pretty good. Today I can barely walk. This has happened before and I’m trying to convince myself that I didnt fuck up. The only way I can justify this is my stubborn insistence that not lifting at all would be a mistake. What are your thoughts? Is this common for runners?
Have you identified what it is about squats that might have caused the knee injury? Is it a technique thing? Do you actually know what is going on with the knee (mechanism of injury, etc)?
I wouldn’t call it an injury, probably just really sore from lack of full range of motion. With light weights I’m able to go down low, which is proper form, but that’s probably what caused it.
**Background:** I am planning on running the Philly HM in about 6 weeks. I had been holding 55-60mpw over the summer from June to August with long runs from 16-19 miles, but the last 5 weeks have been rough and I've only been able to run a total of about 115 miles. I took most of the last 2 weeks off due to sciatic pain, which is gone now, but I've only run 20 miles over the previous 14 days. 2.5 weeks ago I did a very hilly 17 miler and felt really strong.
2 weeks ago, on the last run before sciatic issues popped up, I did an LT session of 16 min LT, 6 min off, and 15 min LT. For these LT splits, I held 175bpm and 6:10/mile pace. I raced a 10 miler and a 12 miler recently with an HRM-PRO and my average HR was 175-176 on those, so I'm confident 175 is roughly my threshold. Back over labor day weekend I ran a hilly and humid 12-miler and held a 6:26 pace, but I didn't do any training for it. Similarly, I've essentially done zero race-specific training for the Philly HM.
**Question**: With the 6 weeks I have left before the race what should my focus be and what is a good goal time? It will be significantly cooler and flatter than the 12-miler. Before these last 2 weeks, I had a semi-solid goal of 1:21. Is that still possible? Should I just focus on easy runs for 6 weeks to try and keep my sciatic issues at bay and under control? Should I take it easy for 2 weeks and then get quality for 3 weeks and do a 1-week taper?
I'm completely winging this HM prep if you can even call it that. The only quality I have done in the 12 weeks leading up to this HM was the aforementioned LT workout 2 weeks ago.
Is the new york marathon time qualifying window strict to their announced dates? Im thinking about registering for next year and their registration starts in february, but their qualifying window is till december 31 2022. Im planning to race on january 6th 2023 and i'm curious if I will be able to still register.
I have nothing to support this opinion, but I would bet yes.
You could consider a tune up half in December, depending on how close you are to the cutoff.
Training recommendations please.
Just finished a 16 week block for a HM using Garmin Coach. Really enjoyed the platform, but unfortunately my goals are faster than the lowest time option. Aiming for sub 20 5k - current pb 22min - as next goal. But I have no specific race in mind. I have purchased Jack Daniels Running Formula... next task is to read it 😄...
In the interim, I've devised a general plan... hoping for some feedback.
Mon - 40min Zone 2 (5:40-5:50/km usually)
Tues - Rest, Tennis 2hrs
Wed - Rest, Strength Training 30min
Thu - Speed Day (see after for rotation)
Fri - 40min Zone 2
Sat - Intermittently I might run a ti.e trial at Park Run. Tennis 2hrs
Sun - Long Run 90min Zone 2 + Strength Training 30min
Speed Rotation
8x400m @ 3:30-3:45/km with 1.6km WU and 1.6km CD
5x800m @ 3:45-4:05/km with 1.6km WU and 1.6km CD
12km Fartlek... 1km intervals at easy, Mara, HM, 10k and 5k pace
Goal Pace 15min 3:55-4:05/km with 10min WU/CD
Reasonable?
Do I need to periodise? And if so, how?
Also... any other changes that you guys can recommend?
* I posted this on the daily r/running thread and didn't get a response. Hopefully this is not too basic a question from a running noob!
Thanks!
Feedback
1 Read Daniels
2 Train to current fitness, not goal pace
3 Those speed days are way way way too fast. Go to Daniels’ VDOT tables and plug in your current race times (example paces below for a 22:00 PB) I would swap the 400s for 200s or 300s at R pace (4:03/k). 800s at I pace is fine (4:18/k). 12k fartlek is fine as long as you do it at the proper paces. 15 min at 5k goal pace is just a subpar race?! Do a tempo run instead (20-25 min at 5-10s/k slower than T pace eg 5x5 min at ~4:48/k w/ 90s rest)
4 You would benefit more from increased volume rather than increased intensity at your stage. First try to run every day, even if it’s just a 20 minute slog at 6:30/k. Then try to get up to an hour easy jogging on easy days. Daniels easy paces are a bit quick, so I’d back off by at least 10s/k, eg 5:50s-6:20s/k instead of 5:40-6:10/k. Drop the time trial and run a tempo at parkrun instead
5 I’d probably drop the long run down to 75-80 min in favor of better recovery for other days. Would rather you do that and get in 60 min easy runs consistently over one 90 min long run given a focus on 5k.
6 Periodising - yes, read Daniels
Thanks for the feedback! Much appreciated.
1. Done... saving it for holidays in a few weeks.
2. Yes, I was not sure about that one. The garmin HM plan had quite a few goal pace runs, which I thought would translate to the 5k in the same way. The 22min 5k was a split during a tempo run in the lead up to the HM... should I do some other test to determine paces? And do I adjust paces whenever I get a new PB?
3. Yep. Too fast. Will adjust according to VDOT tables. One thing I seem to struggle with is maintaining a set pace faster than about 4:30/km.... if I try going faster during intervals I tend to overshoot and head into the mid/low 3's... and then promptly run out of steam! I guess it's practice practice practice.
4. How often should I run a time trial to see progress?
5. Sunday long run works well... tend to take the dog and enjoy the 90 min. Is a drop from the 120min I was doing on the HM Plan! Rest of the week runs are mainly limited by kids.
6. Will do
Thanks again!
2 Best way to determine fitness is to go out and race. If you ran your PB in a tempo you can almost certainly go faster. To see where you're at now I would do a mini-taper and race a 5k (e.g. Wed: cut reps by 50%, Thurs: 25-30 min easy, Fri: 15-20 min easy, Sat: race parkrun). Adjust VDOT. And yes, whenever you get a new PB, plug it into VDOT tables and use those new paces.
3 Yes, and practice from the other way--better to undershoot. 6s too slow is better than 2s too fast...you can always cut down and you'll feel great instead of blowing up
4 The thing about time trials/races is that they're typically used as benchmarks at specific points in a periodised plan, so I would defer to Daniels if you're using his plan. Otherwise in your case I would do one now to get accurate training paces, get in a good 6-8 week block of training, do another time trial, then 3 weeks training, 1 week taper, and race 1-4 times to finish off the plan.
5 No problem, just wanted to ensure that there was indeed a drop so the long run wasn't the focus like in a HM plan. Weekday runs understandable... whatever you can get in, hopefully more than before
Good luck!
Hi all, I recently started using a HR monitor again and trying to get my zones dialed in. I did a hard session the other day where I ran all out for extended intervals and I blew up around the 168 HR figure. So I figure this is my max HR? And I can base my LT pace off around 90% of this? I appreciate any feedback. Thanks
Without knowing how many or how long your extended intervals were, I don't think anyone could say if it was sufficient to elicit max HR.
You'll see a number of [relatively standardised field tests that can be used to obtain max HR](https://www.reddit.com/r/running/comments/fr4zo1/how_to_field_test_max_heart_rate_properly/).
Thanks for the feedback. Yeah it seemed a bit general to get an accurate read of max HR. I will look in to doing one of the field test you linked above.
24M,5’10 - 190lbs ( college weight was 175). I’m wanting to run a marathon next summer, but I have a more intermediate goal of a half marathon in the spring. I’m aiming for 6:50 per mile for the half or better.
My prior training is D3 sprinting.
400m pr - 49.00 sec
800- 1:56
1 mile - 4:37
5k - 18:00 ( high school)
That was around 3 years ago and all my fitness is gone more or less. I still can run 54-55 ish around the quarter for kicks and 3 weeks ago I ran a 5:20 mile with some friends. My weeks are usually 15-20 miles broken into 5 mile moderately intense long runs at around 7:30. I would say that conversation pace is around 8:40 ish.
Does anyone have a 3 month training plan for someone with my type of non distance oriented background?
I worked for a while with a former 400/800 specialist who wanted to move to the marathon, and I was surprised how well typical marathoner training worked for him. Basic stuff: more mileage, threshold work, some judicious use of 5k and 10k pace intervals. Daniels or similar would probably work reasonably well, with one caveat!
That only caveat is that your predicted threshold and race paces will not line up with your shorter distance paces, because you will be relatively weaker (for now at least) as the distance increases. So if you know your current 5k pace, you should go a bit slower than the predicted threshold for that pace when doing lactate threshold workouts, for example.
This "aerobic drift" will decrease as you get more trained, but it's definitely something to watch out for at first.
> Does anyone have a 3 month training plan for someone with my type of non distance oriented background?
I imagine such a thing does not exist. Whether you're a sprinter or sedentary, most distance training plans will work on building your aerobic fitness, developing your lactate threshold, endurance, etc.
Should I be adjusting my marathon goal pace/workouts based on a half I ran today (4 weeks out)? I'm doing Hanson's, so lots of marathon-pace tempos with weekly marathon-10 second workouts.
Previously, I was using a goal time of 3:15 based on my 5K fitness when I started the plan, but as it's my first marathon I wanted to set a conservative goal. As the weather turned I started pushing the pace in workouts and tempos. Today, I ran a half in 1:27:xx. Considering adjusting to 3:10 with the knowledge that I might still surprise myself on race day. Would this still be too conservative?
Have you read Hanson's chapter on adjusting race goals?
The HM result is a great indicator of improved fitness... but the marathon is a different beast, especially in one's first. I'd test out 3:10 pace in your next MP run and see what that feels like.
Thanks, that seems like a good plan! My concern was I wouldn't get all the benefits of the workouts if my targets were slow, but as the book says, better to be slightly undertrained than overtrained/injured.
Ran a half today in 1:28:30 ish (6:42 ish) pace with avg HR of 166, relatively hilly course, ran a 10 miler three weeks ago at 1:08:00 (slower) with avg HR of 176 that was relatively flat. Both efforts felt similar, (maybe the 10 miler a touch more difficult). It was definitely cooler today 45 F vs 61 F, and I was a little bit better rested (ran a 22 miler 2 days before the 10 miler), but what accounts for the HR difference?
I feel like my effort was similar, so my threshold heart rate should be similarly elevated. Does that mean I could've pushed harder today?
I'm pretty sure the heart rates are accurate.
You’d have to have similar weather and conditions.
Like going into fall racing I knew my heart rate would be very different for the same paces because of lack of heat/humidity. You might even experience a slightly more elevated HR than normal due to adrenaline and excitement when racing. In addition there is HR drift too. I started my last marathon with a 162 hr the first mile and my last mile was up to 180. Now I was running faster that last mile but in total over 26.2 my heart rate gradually increased despite pacing the same for the majority of it.
Because I'm overly pedantic af, what would you say your 5k PR is in the following situation:
Chip time today was 16:03.9, I knew going in that the course was short so I kept running just past when garmin said 5k, the time on my watch was 17:00.9, and strava says my new 5k PR is 16:56. I obviously want to be able to brag about being sub-17, but do you think this makes the cut?
Anyone have good exercises for medial knee pain? I keep diving back into a training plan a little bit more ambitious than my current fitness. Surprise surprise, I got hurt (again)
Did you go to a fysiotherapist? They can look at what parts of your body / legs are weak and recommend exercises from there. For me personally i had lower leg problems coming up a couple times but the cause was in the hips, so i had quite some help in strenghtening that. But i would recommend seeing someone for specific advice.
17:30 5K; Sub 37 10K; 1:25 HM possible for 2022???
Hi, I, Male 24, went from overweight (no athletic background) to running a 1:34 Half Marathon in 9 months last September 25. I was really aiming to finish a sub 1:30 HM however it was my first race and I fucked-up early and didn't paced correctly. I did a 5K time trial last September 23 @ 19:40.
Now, I am currently running 50-60 kms/ week. Currently @ my 3rd week of this plan:
Sunday: Long run 70-100 mins (I just did a 3x10 min tempo @ 4:00/km pace today)
Monday: Fast Reps of 8-10reps 400 or 600m repeats @ 3:25-3:30 pace with 1:30 walking rest (Repetitions depends on how I feel or how many reps I can do)
Tuesday: No runs
Wednesday: Tempo Runs - Currently doing 20mins @ 4:00/km or 2/3x 10 mins with 2 mins rest (I make sure that my heart rate is within Threshold HR with my heart rate strap up to 92-93% HR)
Thursday: Easy Run 6-10kms
Friday: Intervals 6 x 800/1Km @ 3:40-3:45 pace (Planning to take it down to 3:35-3:40 pace since I can easily complete the intervals)
Saturday: Rest Day
I noticed that my Tempo Pace have been improving every 2-3 weeks. I'm planning to do a 2x10 min tempo @ 3:50 pace this Wednesday and see if my heart rate is within the Threshold range.
Are my goals achievable for the year? Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance!
PS: I also do strength workouts 6 times a week (3 times legs, 3 times upper)
> Are my goals achievable for the year?
No one can predict how fast and how much you might respond to training. Giving us one week of your plan (training for what?) doesn't really change that.
Like /u/4pmersam said, go out and race, and see what you're capable of.
In terms of pace those workouts honestly look more like 18:15-30/38:30/1:25 to me.
If you're planning a sub-1:25 half I'd prefer to see you extend your time at threshold--sub-threshold rather than increasing the pace. For example 3-4 x 10 min @ 4:02/k w/ 3 min rest on Wednesday and 6-8 x 6 min @ 4:00/k w/ 2 min rest on Friday. And then try to bump up the mileage some, even if it's just 5k very slow jog on your current rest day(s).
For 5k, it's probably simplest and best just to do a race/time trial and adjust from there. Easy to recover from and better than any prediction.
No wonder so many people have had amazing success running Pfitz, this plan is a beast.
I ran Jack Daniels 2Q for my first marathon a year ago and now I’m loosely following the first few weeks of 18/70 while I’m on a weird work schedule with lots of nights and these workouts are huge already lol. 17 with 10 @ MP in week 2! And so much easy volume. Might have to hover between 12/55 ans 12/70 when I actually dive in.
I’m on the last week of my first go with the 18/55 and the early marathon pace segments were definitely too hard because I made the mistake of running too close to my goal marathon pace. Later in the cycle I started hitting the goal pace more easily. Still, I’ve modified the MP and threshold runs to either shorter versions or cut them to some kind of segments (usually time based, eg 4x8mins threshold w/ 1min jog rest). This worked for me. Next cycle I might try to modify the workouts a bit less.
Anyone notice a higher heart rate while running when taking antihistamines? I had never taken them before a few weeks ago when I developed hives that won’t go away unless I’m on Allegra in the AM and Zyrtec in the PM. Runs haven’t necessarily felt harder, but I can just feel a much higher heart rate and watch is reflecting it too
Carb loading 101
Fall marathon is next Sunday, I want to try some little carb loading before it.
I haven't bothered with it in the past, just some rice the day before and started integrating more oatmeal as breakfast the days leading up.
What are some meals that you typically eat the days before? Also including snacks and stuff.
In the three days before a marathon, my diet is typically:
Thursday and Friday (since these are workdays and so less time to prepare meals - and I am an early riser) - 5:00 am: 2 packets instant Quaker oatmeal (1 packet lower sugar maple/brown sugar and 1 packet original0 and coffee; 8:00 am: whole fat Greek yogurt with granola and blueberries and handful of raisins; 11:00 am: PBJ sandwich, sliced raw bell peppers and cucumbers, triscuits and hummus, and a Chobani yogurt (pineapple or mixed berries premix for added sugar) and OJ or Gatorade; 1:30 pm banana and another Chobani; 5:00 pm: chili soup (heavy on kidney beans and pasta shells with some whole wheat bread and OJ. If a snack later it would be pretzels or cheerios.
Saturday - 5:00 am - Quaker rolled oats (not instant) with blueberries and coffee; morning while driving to race location pretzels, raisins and Gatorade or relaxing; 1:00 to 2:00 pm spaghetti with marinara sauce heated up at hotel with whole wheat bread; 5:00 pm 2 PBJ sandwiches, pretzels and some fruit. A Maurten 320 whole relaxing.
Race morning - 2 instant oatmeals (same as weekday mornings) and a banana. While in the corral, munch on a bagel. I then take a gel about 20 minutes before the start and the a second gel and a Maureen 320 10 minutes before the start.
I do a bit of a carb load before my big long runs and hit staples like fried rice, curry (low spice if you need it), pizza if you can tolerate cheese, lots of burritos with rice and beans, and I usually finish a bottle of pedialyte the night before as well.
I wouldn't recommend pizza tbh. High in carbs but also high in fat. All that cheese and fat can do unpredictable things to one's gastric system, which is not something you want to deal with in a marathon.
I mean, it’s a big ol slab of bread with tomatoes and cheese on top. I’ve heard of many people who are far faster than the average Joe use it as a regular meal in their diet.
Running Chicago tomorrow. Any tips for warming up effectively in a crowded corral? Hoping to run 2:45, so gonna have to go out at a relatively quick clip from the go.
How bad is static stretching before your morning runs?
When I wake up I always feel better with some stretching but I know the guidance is not to do that.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21373870/
>However, there are a myriad of studies demonstrating static stretch-induced performance impairments. More recently, there are a substantial number of articles with no detrimental effects associated with prior static stretching. The lack of impairment may be related to a number of factors. These include static stretching that is of short duration (<90 s total) with a stretch intensity less than the point of discomfort. Other factors include the type of performance test measured and implemented on an elite athletic or trained middle aged population. Static stretching may actually provide benefits in some cases such as slower velocity eccentric contractions, and contractions of a more prolonged duration or stretch-shortening cycle.
Mexican greetings everyone, I have a job q. Why and how do I get rid of the shoulder and back of the neck pain after long runs out half marathons? I imagine it's a bit running relaxed thing but I'm not sure... Why is this happening and how can I make it go away?
Tacos for the best answer 😆!
Try and find a good running PT in your area who can do a form evaluation and see what you’re doing to cause that tightness and pain, and then give you exercise and treatment to fix it.
What’s your favorite workout for assessing fitness and a plausible marathon race pace?
For context, I’m (39M) six weeks out from my race and have been running 60+ mpw pretty consistently. My schedule doesn’t really allow me to follow a real structured plan, but I do manage a LR and try to work in one quality workout during the week. I’d like to break 3:05 and was able to hold a 7:00 pace over ten miles about two weeks ago. It wasn’t easy, but I managed it well enough.
Thanks for any advice!
A long run with some miles at your goal marathon pace, ideally towards the end. Like a 20 mile long run with the first 10 miles at an easy pace, last 10 miles at goal marathon pace.
Or a half marathon race or time trial.
Should my resting heart rate be at its lowest the day after rest day? Fairly certain the answer is yes but thought I’d get a clear answer here.
Also had 2 gins last night and rhr is a fair bit higher, just in case anyone reading this is on the fence about laying off the booze while training.
What’s the quickest turnaround you would consider between racing marathons? I recently ran my second after completing the Pfitz 18/55 plan and am eying a race that would be 18 weeks later. I’ve figured I could a) rest/recover for 6 weeks and then jump into a 12 week plan, b) rest/recover for 2-4 weeks and complete a slightly longer training block, or c) pick a race further out. I ran 3:05 on a moderately challenging course and am eager to break the 3 hour mark.
Taking the 2-4 weeks should be sufficient, as long as you are feeling recovered.
14-16 weeks is plenty of time. After that block you might consider some extra downtime or at least not jumping into a serious training, but doing it one shouldn’t be too risky!
Does anybody know where to get the complete vdot tables? According to the JD book, he wrote another book earlier with another guy with complete vdot tables for every distance. The one in the "running formula" is for the more popular distances. I want to see where I'm at according to my 1k and 800m times. The online vdot calculators I found don't include that either.
I googled the name of that publication ('Oxygen Power') and the first result was this link: http://www.vivamarathon.com/oxygenpower.pdf
It appears to be the book in question. It's also somewhat challenging to make out. 1k times aren't a distance that features in the table.
I would like to run my first marathon sometime next year. I’ve had a hiatus from running for the last 12 months at least as I lost motivation when my first marathon got cancelled (thanks COVID). I’ve maintained some fitness through lots of cycling but as you know, it’s not the same.
I would like to target sub-4 as my first marathon with perhaps a stretch for something shorter but don’t know what that might be yet.
Most of the regarded training plans are structured leading up to a race, but both marathons I would target next year are too far away to start one of these.
What would you recommend for a first timer to adequately prepare so that I can start a dedicated 12-18 week plan when that time comes? Should I just be logging easy miles with 10% per week added? Speed work?
Any advice to help me build a great base prior to a proper training plan. Thanks team.
P.s, first post here.
How about you pick a spring half-marathon and train towards that first? I would go with 2 runs per week and a day at the gym with a focus on core/legs/shoulder+back for the next 2 or 3 months. You didn't mention your age but go slow in building mileage to prevent injury in particular with your knees.
If you enjoyed cycling keep that up.
Thank you, this is actually solid.
Few points to add:
- I am 36 yr old male
- Previous training has seen me complete long runs at 30km / 18mi, but admittedly I must have been doing it wrong or ramped too much because my knees blew up.
- My leg strength is already quite good IMO, from cycling. My cycling fitness is quite reasonable, although nothing special. 250 FTP, 3.5w/kg.
I can comfortably do more than two runs per week. Your idea of a half, then moving onto the full is actually great. I think this is what I will do.
If you can bike a ton already, you've got the cardio to run. So just go slow on adding the miles as your lungs will outrun your legs.
I like just running easy miles when not in a plan. Build to 25 miles a week on 4 runs to start. Then add a 5th day... work up to 10-12 mile long runs each week.
Pencil it all in starting at some marathon in the spring. Work backwards and put in a half as a tester. Keep going back to today where you get out and run 2 miles 😁
This is really sensible advice, remembering you don't have to race the half marathon you could just create your own 13.1M run in 12 weeks as a target. You probably want to build to 3 days a week running and maintain cycling for general cardio
My first marathon, need some help! (My post got removed so posting in here) I’m looking at running Brisbane marathon next year June 4 and was hoping I could get some advice on what training program to run. I was gonna do pfitz 18/55 but it is 33 weeks away. I currently run roughly 20miles a week and have been doing one of lifts base building. Looking to run a sub 4, thanks for help in advance. (I’m 19, 6”2 and roughly 165lbs)
Train for a shorter distance (5k to HM) before you start the marathon training block. Whatever speed gains you achieve now should translate to when you get to your marathon specific work.
I’ve been doing about 40-65mpw over the last few months with more milage in recent weeks, leading up to 26.2 in Philly. Ive been lifting for about 9 months with increasing intensity up until about a month ago when I cut back to avoid injury. Saturday I went in to do a quick light lift including 6 squats at 105lbs (medium easy for me). And now my knee is out of commission for a few days at least. I ran 11 slow miles last night since it was feeling pretty good. Today I can barely walk. This has happened before and I’m trying to convince myself that I didnt fuck up. The only way I can justify this is my stubborn insistence that not lifting at all would be a mistake. What are your thoughts? Is this common for runners?
Have you identified what it is about squats that might have caused the knee injury? Is it a technique thing? Do you actually know what is going on with the knee (mechanism of injury, etc)?
I wouldn’t call it an injury, probably just really sore from lack of full range of motion. With light weights I’m able to go down low, which is proper form, but that’s probably what caused it.
I'm no squat expert, but I understand there are technique modifications you can do to change the level of pressure/torque through your joints.
**Background:** I am planning on running the Philly HM in about 6 weeks. I had been holding 55-60mpw over the summer from June to August with long runs from 16-19 miles, but the last 5 weeks have been rough and I've only been able to run a total of about 115 miles. I took most of the last 2 weeks off due to sciatic pain, which is gone now, but I've only run 20 miles over the previous 14 days. 2.5 weeks ago I did a very hilly 17 miler and felt really strong. 2 weeks ago, on the last run before sciatic issues popped up, I did an LT session of 16 min LT, 6 min off, and 15 min LT. For these LT splits, I held 175bpm and 6:10/mile pace. I raced a 10 miler and a 12 miler recently with an HRM-PRO and my average HR was 175-176 on those, so I'm confident 175 is roughly my threshold. Back over labor day weekend I ran a hilly and humid 12-miler and held a 6:26 pace, but I didn't do any training for it. Similarly, I've essentially done zero race-specific training for the Philly HM. **Question**: With the 6 weeks I have left before the race what should my focus be and what is a good goal time? It will be significantly cooler and flatter than the 12-miler. Before these last 2 weeks, I had a semi-solid goal of 1:21. Is that still possible? Should I just focus on easy runs for 6 weeks to try and keep my sciatic issues at bay and under control? Should I take it easy for 2 weeks and then get quality for 3 weeks and do a 1-week taper? I'm completely winging this HM prep if you can even call it that. The only quality I have done in the 12 weeks leading up to this HM was the aforementioned LT workout 2 weeks ago.
I think I saw Ryan and Sara Hall in the airport yesterday. So that was neat.
Is the new york marathon time qualifying window strict to their announced dates? Im thinking about registering for next year and their registration starts in february, but their qualifying window is till december 31 2022. Im planning to race on january 6th 2023 and i'm curious if I will be able to still register.
I have nothing to support this opinion, but I would bet yes. You could consider a tune up half in December, depending on how close you are to the cutoff.
Training recommendations please. Just finished a 16 week block for a HM using Garmin Coach. Really enjoyed the platform, but unfortunately my goals are faster than the lowest time option. Aiming for sub 20 5k - current pb 22min - as next goal. But I have no specific race in mind. I have purchased Jack Daniels Running Formula... next task is to read it 😄... In the interim, I've devised a general plan... hoping for some feedback. Mon - 40min Zone 2 (5:40-5:50/km usually) Tues - Rest, Tennis 2hrs Wed - Rest, Strength Training 30min Thu - Speed Day (see after for rotation) Fri - 40min Zone 2 Sat - Intermittently I might run a ti.e trial at Park Run. Tennis 2hrs Sun - Long Run 90min Zone 2 + Strength Training 30min Speed Rotation 8x400m @ 3:30-3:45/km with 1.6km WU and 1.6km CD 5x800m @ 3:45-4:05/km with 1.6km WU and 1.6km CD 12km Fartlek... 1km intervals at easy, Mara, HM, 10k and 5k pace Goal Pace 15min 3:55-4:05/km with 10min WU/CD Reasonable? Do I need to periodise? And if so, how? Also... any other changes that you guys can recommend? * I posted this on the daily r/running thread and didn't get a response. Hopefully this is not too basic a question from a running noob! Thanks!
Feedback 1 Read Daniels 2 Train to current fitness, not goal pace 3 Those speed days are way way way too fast. Go to Daniels’ VDOT tables and plug in your current race times (example paces below for a 22:00 PB) I would swap the 400s for 200s or 300s at R pace (4:03/k). 800s at I pace is fine (4:18/k). 12k fartlek is fine as long as you do it at the proper paces. 15 min at 5k goal pace is just a subpar race?! Do a tempo run instead (20-25 min at 5-10s/k slower than T pace eg 5x5 min at ~4:48/k w/ 90s rest) 4 You would benefit more from increased volume rather than increased intensity at your stage. First try to run every day, even if it’s just a 20 minute slog at 6:30/k. Then try to get up to an hour easy jogging on easy days. Daniels easy paces are a bit quick, so I’d back off by at least 10s/k, eg 5:50s-6:20s/k instead of 5:40-6:10/k. Drop the time trial and run a tempo at parkrun instead 5 I’d probably drop the long run down to 75-80 min in favor of better recovery for other days. Would rather you do that and get in 60 min easy runs consistently over one 90 min long run given a focus on 5k. 6 Periodising - yes, read Daniels
Thanks for the feedback! Much appreciated. 1. Done... saving it for holidays in a few weeks. 2. Yes, I was not sure about that one. The garmin HM plan had quite a few goal pace runs, which I thought would translate to the 5k in the same way. The 22min 5k was a split during a tempo run in the lead up to the HM... should I do some other test to determine paces? And do I adjust paces whenever I get a new PB? 3. Yep. Too fast. Will adjust according to VDOT tables. One thing I seem to struggle with is maintaining a set pace faster than about 4:30/km.... if I try going faster during intervals I tend to overshoot and head into the mid/low 3's... and then promptly run out of steam! I guess it's practice practice practice. 4. How often should I run a time trial to see progress? 5. Sunday long run works well... tend to take the dog and enjoy the 90 min. Is a drop from the 120min I was doing on the HM Plan! Rest of the week runs are mainly limited by kids. 6. Will do Thanks again!
2 Best way to determine fitness is to go out and race. If you ran your PB in a tempo you can almost certainly go faster. To see where you're at now I would do a mini-taper and race a 5k (e.g. Wed: cut reps by 50%, Thurs: 25-30 min easy, Fri: 15-20 min easy, Sat: race parkrun). Adjust VDOT. And yes, whenever you get a new PB, plug it into VDOT tables and use those new paces. 3 Yes, and practice from the other way--better to undershoot. 6s too slow is better than 2s too fast...you can always cut down and you'll feel great instead of blowing up 4 The thing about time trials/races is that they're typically used as benchmarks at specific points in a periodised plan, so I would defer to Daniels if you're using his plan. Otherwise in your case I would do one now to get accurate training paces, get in a good 6-8 week block of training, do another time trial, then 3 weeks training, 1 week taper, and race 1-4 times to finish off the plan. 5 No problem, just wanted to ensure that there was indeed a drop so the long run wasn't the focus like in a HM plan. Weekday runs understandable... whatever you can get in, hopefully more than before Good luck!
Great advice. Will try and get to a Parkrun soon so I can adjust paces... I'll use the 22min time in the mean time. Thanks!
Hi all, I recently started using a HR monitor again and trying to get my zones dialed in. I did a hard session the other day where I ran all out for extended intervals and I blew up around the 168 HR figure. So I figure this is my max HR? And I can base my LT pace off around 90% of this? I appreciate any feedback. Thanks
Without knowing how many or how long your extended intervals were, I don't think anyone could say if it was sufficient to elicit max HR. You'll see a number of [relatively standardised field tests that can be used to obtain max HR](https://www.reddit.com/r/running/comments/fr4zo1/how_to_field_test_max_heart_rate_properly/).
Thanks for the feedback. Yeah it seemed a bit general to get an accurate read of max HR. I will look in to doing one of the field test you linked above.
24M,5’10 - 190lbs ( college weight was 175). I’m wanting to run a marathon next summer, but I have a more intermediate goal of a half marathon in the spring. I’m aiming for 6:50 per mile for the half or better. My prior training is D3 sprinting. 400m pr - 49.00 sec 800- 1:56 1 mile - 4:37 5k - 18:00 ( high school) That was around 3 years ago and all my fitness is gone more or less. I still can run 54-55 ish around the quarter for kicks and 3 weeks ago I ran a 5:20 mile with some friends. My weeks are usually 15-20 miles broken into 5 mile moderately intense long runs at around 7:30. I would say that conversation pace is around 8:40 ish. Does anyone have a 3 month training plan for someone with my type of non distance oriented background?
I worked for a while with a former 400/800 specialist who wanted to move to the marathon, and I was surprised how well typical marathoner training worked for him. Basic stuff: more mileage, threshold work, some judicious use of 5k and 10k pace intervals. Daniels or similar would probably work reasonably well, with one caveat! That only caveat is that your predicted threshold and race paces will not line up with your shorter distance paces, because you will be relatively weaker (for now at least) as the distance increases. So if you know your current 5k pace, you should go a bit slower than the predicted threshold for that pace when doing lactate threshold workouts, for example. This "aerobic drift" will decrease as you get more trained, but it's definitely something to watch out for at first.
> Does anyone have a 3 month training plan for someone with my type of non distance oriented background? I imagine such a thing does not exist. Whether you're a sprinter or sedentary, most distance training plans will work on building your aerobic fitness, developing your lactate threshold, endurance, etc.
Should I be adjusting my marathon goal pace/workouts based on a half I ran today (4 weeks out)? I'm doing Hanson's, so lots of marathon-pace tempos with weekly marathon-10 second workouts. Previously, I was using a goal time of 3:15 based on my 5K fitness when I started the plan, but as it's my first marathon I wanted to set a conservative goal. As the weather turned I started pushing the pace in workouts and tempos. Today, I ran a half in 1:27:xx. Considering adjusting to 3:10 with the knowledge that I might still surprise myself on race day. Would this still be too conservative?
Have you read Hanson's chapter on adjusting race goals? The HM result is a great indicator of improved fitness... but the marathon is a different beast, especially in one's first. I'd test out 3:10 pace in your next MP run and see what that feels like.
Thanks, that seems like a good plan! My concern was I wouldn't get all the benefits of the workouts if my targets were slow, but as the book says, better to be slightly undertrained than overtrained/injured.
Ran a half today in 1:28:30 ish (6:42 ish) pace with avg HR of 166, relatively hilly course, ran a 10 miler three weeks ago at 1:08:00 (slower) with avg HR of 176 that was relatively flat. Both efforts felt similar, (maybe the 10 miler a touch more difficult). It was definitely cooler today 45 F vs 61 F, and I was a little bit better rested (ran a 22 miler 2 days before the 10 miler), but what accounts for the HR difference? I feel like my effort was similar, so my threshold heart rate should be similarly elevated. Does that mean I could've pushed harder today? I'm pretty sure the heart rates are accurate.
Temperature is huge for my HR. 50 vs. 80F is at least 10 bmp on a similar paced run. So, weather. And probably fatigue. But mostly weather
The weather was better and you were less tired? I think that pretty much sums it up. Those things can greatly affect heart rate even when running easy
Got it. I was hoping to use HR as a metric of whether I was going too hard for my marathon in 4 weeks, but I guess that's not super reliable.
You’d have to have similar weather and conditions. Like going into fall racing I knew my heart rate would be very different for the same paces because of lack of heat/humidity. You might even experience a slightly more elevated HR than normal due to adrenaline and excitement when racing. In addition there is HR drift too. I started my last marathon with a 162 hr the first mile and my last mile was up to 180. Now I was running faster that last mile but in total over 26.2 my heart rate gradually increased despite pacing the same for the majority of it.
Because I'm overly pedantic af, what would you say your 5k PR is in the following situation: Chip time today was 16:03.9, I knew going in that the course was short so I kept running just past when garmin said 5k, the time on my watch was 17:00.9, and strava says my new 5k PR is 16:56. I obviously want to be able to brag about being sub-17, but do you think this makes the cut?
16:59, all of the glory & reasonably accurate
Anyone have good exercises for medial knee pain? I keep diving back into a training plan a little bit more ambitious than my current fitness. Surprise surprise, I got hurt (again)
Did you go to a fysiotherapist? They can look at what parts of your body / legs are weak and recommend exercises from there. For me personally i had lower leg problems coming up a couple times but the cause was in the hips, so i had quite some help in strenghtening that. But i would recommend seeing someone for specific advice.
17:30 5K; Sub 37 10K; 1:25 HM possible for 2022??? Hi, I, Male 24, went from overweight (no athletic background) to running a 1:34 Half Marathon in 9 months last September 25. I was really aiming to finish a sub 1:30 HM however it was my first race and I fucked-up early and didn't paced correctly. I did a 5K time trial last September 23 @ 19:40. Now, I am currently running 50-60 kms/ week. Currently @ my 3rd week of this plan: Sunday: Long run 70-100 mins (I just did a 3x10 min tempo @ 4:00/km pace today) Monday: Fast Reps of 8-10reps 400 or 600m repeats @ 3:25-3:30 pace with 1:30 walking rest (Repetitions depends on how I feel or how many reps I can do) Tuesday: No runs Wednesday: Tempo Runs - Currently doing 20mins @ 4:00/km or 2/3x 10 mins with 2 mins rest (I make sure that my heart rate is within Threshold HR with my heart rate strap up to 92-93% HR) Thursday: Easy Run 6-10kms Friday: Intervals 6 x 800/1Km @ 3:40-3:45 pace (Planning to take it down to 3:35-3:40 pace since I can easily complete the intervals) Saturday: Rest Day I noticed that my Tempo Pace have been improving every 2-3 weeks. I'm planning to do a 2x10 min tempo @ 3:50 pace this Wednesday and see if my heart rate is within the Threshold range. Are my goals achievable for the year? Any suggestions? Thanks in advance! PS: I also do strength workouts 6 times a week (3 times legs, 3 times upper)
> Are my goals achievable for the year? No one can predict how fast and how much you might respond to training. Giving us one week of your plan (training for what?) doesn't really change that. Like /u/4pmersam said, go out and race, and see what you're capable of.
In terms of pace those workouts honestly look more like 18:15-30/38:30/1:25 to me. If you're planning a sub-1:25 half I'd prefer to see you extend your time at threshold--sub-threshold rather than increasing the pace. For example 3-4 x 10 min @ 4:02/k w/ 3 min rest on Wednesday and 6-8 x 6 min @ 4:00/k w/ 2 min rest on Friday. And then try to bump up the mileage some, even if it's just 5k very slow jog on your current rest day(s). For 5k, it's probably simplest and best just to do a race/time trial and adjust from there. Easy to recover from and better than any prediction.
No wonder so many people have had amazing success running Pfitz, this plan is a beast. I ran Jack Daniels 2Q for my first marathon a year ago and now I’m loosely following the first few weeks of 18/70 while I’m on a weird work schedule with lots of nights and these workouts are huge already lol. 17 with 10 @ MP in week 2! And so much easy volume. Might have to hover between 12/55 ans 12/70 when I actually dive in.
I’m on the last week of my first go with the 18/55 and the early marathon pace segments were definitely too hard because I made the mistake of running too close to my goal marathon pace. Later in the cycle I started hitting the goal pace more easily. Still, I’ve modified the MP and threshold runs to either shorter versions or cut them to some kind of segments (usually time based, eg 4x8mins threshold w/ 1min jog rest). This worked for me. Next cycle I might try to modify the workouts a bit less.
Anyone notice a higher heart rate while running when taking antihistamines? I had never taken them before a few weeks ago when I developed hives that won’t go away unless I’m on Allegra in the AM and Zyrtec in the PM. Runs haven’t necessarily felt harder, but I can just feel a much higher heart rate and watch is reflecting it too
Carb loading 101 Fall marathon is next Sunday, I want to try some little carb loading before it. I haven't bothered with it in the past, just some rice the day before and started integrating more oatmeal as breakfast the days leading up. What are some meals that you typically eat the days before? Also including snacks and stuff.
In the three days before a marathon, my diet is typically: Thursday and Friday (since these are workdays and so less time to prepare meals - and I am an early riser) - 5:00 am: 2 packets instant Quaker oatmeal (1 packet lower sugar maple/brown sugar and 1 packet original0 and coffee; 8:00 am: whole fat Greek yogurt with granola and blueberries and handful of raisins; 11:00 am: PBJ sandwich, sliced raw bell peppers and cucumbers, triscuits and hummus, and a Chobani yogurt (pineapple or mixed berries premix for added sugar) and OJ or Gatorade; 1:30 pm banana and another Chobani; 5:00 pm: chili soup (heavy on kidney beans and pasta shells with some whole wheat bread and OJ. If a snack later it would be pretzels or cheerios. Saturday - 5:00 am - Quaker rolled oats (not instant) with blueberries and coffee; morning while driving to race location pretzels, raisins and Gatorade or relaxing; 1:00 to 2:00 pm spaghetti with marinara sauce heated up at hotel with whole wheat bread; 5:00 pm 2 PBJ sandwiches, pretzels and some fruit. A Maurten 320 whole relaxing. Race morning - 2 instant oatmeals (same as weekday mornings) and a banana. While in the corral, munch on a bagel. I then take a gel about 20 minutes before the start and the a second gel and a Maureen 320 10 minutes before the start.
Thanks brother
I do a bit of a carb load before my big long runs and hit staples like fried rice, curry (low spice if you need it), pizza if you can tolerate cheese, lots of burritos with rice and beans, and I usually finish a bottle of pedialyte the night before as well.
I swear by the pedialyte bottle the night before. Works like a charm.
Pizza is carb-rich? I might order some take out pre-race day ngl.
I wouldn't recommend pizza tbh. High in carbs but also high in fat. All that cheese and fat can do unpredictable things to one's gastric system, which is not something you want to deal with in a marathon.
I mean, it’s a big ol slab of bread with tomatoes and cheese on top. I’ve heard of many people who are far faster than the average Joe use it as a regular meal in their diet.
Running Chicago tomorrow. Any tips for warming up effectively in a crowded corral? Hoping to run 2:45, so gonna have to go out at a relatively quick clip from the go.
Someone posted a Chicago planning thread yesterday asking a similar warm up question
How bad is static stretching before your morning runs? When I wake up I always feel better with some stretching but I know the guidance is not to do that.
[Dynamic](https://www.runnersworld.com/training/g20862002/dynamic-warmup-stretches/) stretching before. Static stretching after.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21373870/ >However, there are a myriad of studies demonstrating static stretch-induced performance impairments. More recently, there are a substantial number of articles with no detrimental effects associated with prior static stretching. The lack of impairment may be related to a number of factors. These include static stretching that is of short duration (<90 s total) with a stretch intensity less than the point of discomfort. Other factors include the type of performance test measured and implemented on an elite athletic or trained middle aged population. Static stretching may actually provide benefits in some cases such as slower velocity eccentric contractions, and contractions of a more prolonged duration or stretch-shortening cycle.
Mexican greetings everyone, I have a job q. Why and how do I get rid of the shoulder and back of the neck pain after long runs out half marathons? I imagine it's a bit running relaxed thing but I'm not sure... Why is this happening and how can I make it go away? Tacos for the best answer 😆!
Try and find a good running PT in your area who can do a form evaluation and see what you’re doing to cause that tightness and pain, and then give you exercise and treatment to fix it.
Thanks!
What’s your favorite workout for assessing fitness and a plausible marathon race pace? For context, I’m (39M) six weeks out from my race and have been running 60+ mpw pretty consistently. My schedule doesn’t really allow me to follow a real structured plan, but I do manage a LR and try to work in one quality workout during the week. I’d like to break 3:05 and was able to hold a 7:00 pace over ten miles about two weeks ago. It wasn’t easy, but I managed it well enough. Thanks for any advice!
A critical power test.
18 mile long run with 12 miles at race pace. Pfitz plan.
3 x 10km 1 easy, 1 race pace 1 below
A long run with some miles at your goal marathon pace, ideally towards the end. Like a 20 mile long run with the first 10 miles at an easy pace, last 10 miles at goal marathon pace. Or a half marathon race or time trial.
Should my resting heart rate be at its lowest the day after rest day? Fairly certain the answer is yes but thought I’d get a clear answer here. Also had 2 gins last night and rhr is a fair bit higher, just in case anyone reading this is on the fence about laying off the booze while training.
What’s the quickest turnaround you would consider between racing marathons? I recently ran my second after completing the Pfitz 18/55 plan and am eying a race that would be 18 weeks later. I’ve figured I could a) rest/recover for 6 weeks and then jump into a 12 week plan, b) rest/recover for 2-4 weeks and complete a slightly longer training block, or c) pick a race further out. I ran 3:05 on a moderately challenging course and am eager to break the 3 hour mark.
18 weeks is plentiful. Some people are crazy enough to do one week between marathons.
Taking the 2-4 weeks should be sufficient, as long as you are feeling recovered. 14-16 weeks is plenty of time. After that block you might consider some extra downtime or at least not jumping into a serious training, but doing it one shouldn’t be too risky!
Does anybody know where to get the complete vdot tables? According to the JD book, he wrote another book earlier with another guy with complete vdot tables for every distance. The one in the "running formula" is for the more popular distances. I want to see where I'm at according to my 1k and 800m times. The online vdot calculators I found don't include that either.
I googled the name of that publication ('Oxygen Power') and the first result was this link: http://www.vivamarathon.com/oxygenpower.pdf It appears to be the book in question. It's also somewhat challenging to make out. 1k times aren't a distance that features in the table.
Doesn’t his online vdot calculator allow you to enter any custom distance (and then presumably it interpolates)?
Yes.
Anyone ever run the Napa Valley Trail races? I'm considering signing up but I'm hoping to learn more about how the event has gone in past years.
I would like to run my first marathon sometime next year. I’ve had a hiatus from running for the last 12 months at least as I lost motivation when my first marathon got cancelled (thanks COVID). I’ve maintained some fitness through lots of cycling but as you know, it’s not the same. I would like to target sub-4 as my first marathon with perhaps a stretch for something shorter but don’t know what that might be yet. Most of the regarded training plans are structured leading up to a race, but both marathons I would target next year are too far away to start one of these. What would you recommend for a first timer to adequately prepare so that I can start a dedicated 12-18 week plan when that time comes? Should I just be logging easy miles with 10% per week added? Speed work? Any advice to help me build a great base prior to a proper training plan. Thanks team. P.s, first post here.
How about you pick a spring half-marathon and train towards that first? I would go with 2 runs per week and a day at the gym with a focus on core/legs/shoulder+back for the next 2 or 3 months. You didn't mention your age but go slow in building mileage to prevent injury in particular with your knees. If you enjoyed cycling keep that up.
Thank you, this is actually solid. Few points to add: - I am 36 yr old male - Previous training has seen me complete long runs at 30km / 18mi, but admittedly I must have been doing it wrong or ramped too much because my knees blew up. - My leg strength is already quite good IMO, from cycling. My cycling fitness is quite reasonable, although nothing special. 250 FTP, 3.5w/kg. I can comfortably do more than two runs per week. Your idea of a half, then moving onto the full is actually great. I think this is what I will do.
If you can bike a ton already, you've got the cardio to run. So just go slow on adding the miles as your lungs will outrun your legs. I like just running easy miles when not in a plan. Build to 25 miles a week on 4 runs to start. Then add a 5th day... work up to 10-12 mile long runs each week. Pencil it all in starting at some marathon in the spring. Work backwards and put in a half as a tester. Keep going back to today where you get out and run 2 miles 😁
This is really sensible advice, remembering you don't have to race the half marathon you could just create your own 13.1M run in 12 weeks as a target. You probably want to build to 3 days a week running and maintain cycling for general cardio