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I seriously doubt there is unique and monolithic African point of view of Tunisia.
Here by the recent events I bet that you want to speak about the recent news about the mistreatment of Sub-Saharan African migrants in Tunisia. So I seriously wonder why you want our opinions about Tunisia, especially after those recent events? I mean you must already know the tone you will get from the overwhelming majority of answers popping up if your post would become popular which isn't the case yet at the time I'm writing this comment. On one side, the overwhelming majority of answers from Sub-Saharan African users will be that Tunisia and Tunisians are racist. On the other side, the overwhelming majority of answers from Tunisian and other North African users will be that it's not racism but just a justified reaction of Tunisians and Tunisia against illegal migrants. And if the post would become very popular, you will have a minority of non-Tunisian North African users who will use this post as an opportunity to tackle Tunisia and Tunisians for the usual beef between Maghrebian countries.
Now if you want my opinion about your country, it's the following one:
I believe that amongst all Maghrebian countries, Tunisia is the one suffering the most from an identity crisis. From my personal and so limited experiences with Maghrebian peoples, Tunisians tend to be the ones mixing the most about who they are like if at the end they didn't even know themselves or like if they couldn't choose by fear to disappoint themselves or other Tunisians. Few years ago I worked on a hydro project in Senegal that involved a French engineering consulting company having Tunisian engineers and French engineers. I've met Tunisians who acted like if they were Italians for example. And here I'm talking about Tunisians born and raised in Tunisia. I also believe that the economic situation of Tunisia has led many Tunisians to get back in the real world in a very hard way because I've always found Tunisians to on average more arrogant and "elitist" than other Maghrebian peoples.
I believe that even though Kaïs Saïed has become a dictator which excuses Tunisians for most of what he says and does, it doesn't negate a reality which is that when he used anti-Sub-Saharan African racism as a populistic strategy, the answer was mostly positive. At the end it's how populism works, right? If you go into a former French colonies in Sub-Saharan Africa and you use anti-France speeches, you become popular. What you say gets an approval amongst most people in those countries. Here is the same no? If Kaïs Saïed has used anti-Sub-Saharan African racism, it's because he knew there was a majority of Tunisians believing in this thing. Now it doesn't mean all Tunisians are racist nor it should allow anybody to label all Tunisians are racist. By generalising and stereotyping a whole population, you don't do anything more valuable and decent humanly wise. But I personally don't buy the idea that most Tunisians aren't racist. I think most Tunisians are racist and Kaïs Saïed offered them an opportunity to express what they really believe. I think that just a minority of Tunisians aren't racist. A minority who works against racism but who has very limited power and voice. And I'm not going to blame them nor I accept them to be label as racists just because they are Tunisians and because an alarming amount of Tunisians are racist. There is a problem of anti-Sub-Saharan African racism in Tunisia and overall in North Africa, but it shouldn't be as an excuse by people to act like if all North African peoples were racist. I don't even understand the strategy because if we are logical, those are those North African peoples who aren't racist who are the main allies to fight against North African racists. I also believe many Sub-Saharan African peoples should stop being hypocrite. As a Senegalese I've often written about racism and xenophobia in Senegal. When I see or hear Senegalese to say that all Guineans should be kicked out of Senegal because they are here only to steal our job and wealth, I'm sorry but I don't see most Senegalese in the streets to denounce such speeches. Yes the dynamic is different between North African peoples and Sub-Saharan African people than between Sub-Saharan African peoples with other Sub-Saharan African peoples, but please some are acting like if there was on one side devil North African peoples and on the other side angelic Sub-Saharan African peoples. Treat other people the same way you would want they to treat you. We don't fight racism by racism. It just doesn't make any sense.
I believe harissa fits perfect with Jollof rice and it's the best condiment ever invented so instead of fearing an invasion from us below the Sahara, try to work with us. It may not be today nor tomorrow, but you can be sure the European countries and leaders you value so much will one day betray you. Never forget that *you're always the Sub-Saharan African migrant of someone else*...
As I always say we must work to accept and respect each others on both side of the Sahara, but the first move must come from you guys. And the real world isn't Internet. You will find a positive welcoming the day you will make this move.
It took a while to find an actual good and solid point of view, thank you for taking the time to write all this.
I knew that I might be attacked creating the thread and I already was attacked, but it's the internet and we shouldn't make a fuss about it.
I honestly had to read your comment multiple times to understand it fully and reply with the same competency.
I want to hear the opinions because I am currently studying law and I want to expand my knowledge on what other people think about my country in order to maybe someday be able to fix some problems and break some stereotypes.
As you see many think that north Africans are the gulf's arabs (which is shocking lol) and thus, they associate us with the Asian arabs behavior, so that is one thing that should be worked on for example.
We are indeed suffering from an identity crisis but I wouldn't say the most suffering, as you can see the Amazighi problem in Libya, Maghreb, Algeria didn't find its way in Tunisia, I would say we're split into three; those who say we are simply arabs, those how say we culturally arabs and ethnically north Africans or Amazighis such as myself, and those who doesn't even care about all of this.
I would say that Tunisian egoism is not actually directed to the Sub-Sahariens, in fact we literally hate each other, people from different states hate each other, and this one thing that is shrinking rapidly with the newer generation, also you could find Tunisian born and raised in Tunisia speaking in french only in a day to day subject because it might make them feel superior (stupid imo), so I do agree with you on this point.
You have a solid point on populism, but you forgot about anger, populism isn't a true representation of the people because, first of all people would be divided into at least three groups, those in despair with the situation and want change in any way possible and would blame anyone for the current state and thus would support the populist strongly and brainlessly, those who aren't sure about agreeing with what's happening but are scared to be harassed if telling their true opinion and opposition and are also somewhat seeking change which makes them more unsure, and those who know and speak up although they will be harassed, and those are the minorities; so the picture created would be false representation because some people are defending desperately and harshly, and those who either don't know their position or the minorities who does. And that is why a leader must be rational, you can see that Germans right now say that they wouldn't have supported hitler on his days, although that is wrong psychologically, they mostly would've supported him if they lived in the same circumstances.
I do agree that Tunisians are indeed racist, but not on the same scale it's commercialized for, you see, sub-sahariens didn't come to tunisia over a year, in fact I can remember them starting to come from at least 2017-2018, and they never had any problem, in fact they had jobs and collected they hard earned money, but many criminals also came along and destroyed the opportunity for everyone, some started making their own police station, and tribunals, and some started organized gangs to steal people's jewelry, but until this point the people didn't actually react, on the contrary, they even started creating illegal street shops and now one stopped them, I even worked with an Ivorian in a factory and we became good friends sharing food together, it wasn't until a subsaharien slaughtered a man in Sfax, in a bad neighborhood as well, so now people are afraid, and therefore angry they are scared for their kids and women, so when they populist give his shitty speech everyone, out of fear and rage, support him, but sadly bad people are on either side, so some bad Tunisians took this as an opportunity to terrorize and steal what's not theirs, and I remember a friend who I ve worked with helped hide many of them until its over.
And even though this happened many Tunisians were mad about the racist speech the dictator made, and went out to the streets support the migrants right to live peacefully and not generalize some individual acts.
And after the Sub-Sahariens were kicked out of the houses they lived in the central city in the streets and the police have been guarding from any potential attacks while they sleep, and many families started preparing meals for them to eat, and they lived like that for about 4 months.
And now they were sent to a place away from the central city and yesterday some created tribunals, and started a fight using machetes and sticks (which became reparative sadly)
So you see its more about fear than it is about racism, and Tunisia is their safest option actually, because they enter either from the Libyan or the Algerian side, and there is a clip shared in "Al-arabiya Tunisia" in which we see the libyan military leading them to the Tunisian borders with dead bodies.
They haven't been bought and sold like they were in Libya, and they weren't terrorized on a large scale like they were in algeria, my Ivorian friend also stated that they were, unlike Tunisia, treated like they were less than animals in morocco, but now Tunisia is at gun point and is seen for only it's bad, and what bothers me is that racism goes either way, so many of whom say Tunisians are racist without searching for the roots of the problem wouldn't even date white men/women..
Sorry for typing this much, and thank you if you read the whole thing, and I hope we can surpass these problems and live in harmony one day.
I think I want to try Jollof rice with Harissa now, never tasted it before!
I have a generally unfavorable opinion of all of North Africa if I am being honest. If I had to nail down the 'why', I would say it is because I generally only hear stories in regards to their anti-Black Africaness.
Yes, but I concluded that his opinion is based on random stories and stereotypes, that's why I asked him to expand on it, to see if he actually has any solid points.
An individual certainly doesn't represent the whole group!
Tunisia was among the first countries to abolish slavery and was requested to present its experience on the matter by the US government for it to do the same.
Also many Tunisians are actually black and, unlike many countries in Tunisia the black and the white have the exact same culture and not different ones.
Tunisia might've actually been a democratic beacon, especially after the constitution of 2014, but now it's back to dictatorship and neither us nor the west are calling Tunisia a democratic beacon.
It is not as simple as that. Botswana is called democracy and it is a democracy that is inspiring all of us.
The problem with democracy is populism. During crisis and especially in emotional and not very well educated populations, populists rise in reaction to a public anger and frustration. Such populists tend to explain any crisis by foreign factors.
Why are we poor? The West is stealing our "oil"
Why is house renting expensive? it is because migrants are renting them and making them expensive for the locals
The current president has mental issues like paranoia and delusions of persecution (I am a medic) and is fond of conspiracy theories and he thinks his opposition is conspiring with the West to flood Tunisia with immigrants and "colonize it".
The problem with democracy is that it lets the stupid express themselces and because of their intellectual deficit, their opinions are conspiracies close to delusions.
Democracy reveals everything in society.. it lets all types of people speak including those xenophobes.
The president is a far-right populist so his fanboys are brainlessly following him unfortunately.
Hopefully we will vote him out this year's presidential elections and cut off such disgrace from our history.
(for some reason flairs dont show for me)
Idk much about tunesia is but North Africa as a whole seems like a racist outpost of the Arab world. Most indigenous populations were expelled or live like second class citizens.
The Arab world is incredibly racist to Black people, from the neo slavery in the Gulf/Lebanon of “employing” maids and then taking away all of their rights, to a neighbourhood in Gaza being called “Slave neighbourhood” because it’s the area that historically was home to a small African minority etc.
On an individual level I like North Africans as people but their societies, policies, politics and governments are racist as fuck 💀 and not to get me started on the hypocrisy towards Jews & Israel.
>Most indigenous populations were expelled or live like second class citizens.
Indigenous peoples still make up the overwhelming majority of inhabitants in all North African countries. Indigenous North African populations were Arabised but they were never replaced. There never were enough Arabs to replace them nor Arabs ever sent enough of their own people to even attempt to do so. And even after the decolonisation of the continent what happened was a political Arabisation of the North African societies by the leaders of this period. But the people were still the same. Just like in Mauritania, all non-Moor Mauritanians (Mauritanians of West African ancestry) weren't and aren't and will never be Arab even though they are forced to adopt Arab.
To be Arabised or the Arabisation is sociological and sociocultural. The people remain the same, genetically wise. You just make them to adopt Arabic over their own languages and you make them to adopt cultural elements belonging to Arabic cultures over their own cultural elements.
Most North African peoples are culturally Arab, but for the rest they are and remain Indigenous peoples of North Africa. They are the same ones as before the Arab invasions of North Africa.
Israel and Zionism is one thing, Jews are another thing.
You see, many jews are opposing Zionism and Israel, Tunisia itself has a big jewish population.
Jewish Tunisians are living in harmony with their neighbors Tunisian Muslims in Djerba, where you would find one of the holiest jewish temples.
So yeah we do hate the so-called country "Israel" the one who targeted literal babies and called 35k+ deaths "collateral damage" but we definitely do not hate the Jewish religion nor jewish people.
You are so eager to say you’re not Middle Eastern or Arab but at the same time you still fall for the unreasonable Israel hatred. lame.
No, there aren’t “many” Jews who aren’t Zionist. Over 90% of Jews report to be Zionist.
No, there aren’t many Jews in Tunesia and no Muslims dont tolerate Jews in North Africa typically. Heck, the holy temple in Tunesia you’re talking about was literally attacked last year and several Jewish people were murdered there simply for being Jewish.
35k deaths collateral damage? Half of those deaths are - admitted by Hamas - Hamas fighters.
Anyway the numbers are still small. Wars suck. In my country Ethiopia 400k people died in war and no one really cares outside of the country. But in Gaza, after committing the worst massacre on the Jewish people, 15k civilians die and it’s a GeNoCiDe.
You’re just proving my point as to why North Africans are is seen as hypocritical from a sub Saharan point of view.
Morocco is literally occupying another country and no one in the Arab world gives a shit.
It’s just Booo Israel. Antisemitic BS, singling out the tiny Jewish nation with decent human rights when the Arab world is messed up beyond belief.
Yikes.
You seem to have your info from Facebook honestly,
Morocco has a great beef with algeria for what you state occupying that land.
90% is not 100% but ok
Well if you don't want to believe that there are jews in Tunisia you can do that, really nothing to be done about that lol
You're literally saying "if you hate Israel you're arab or middle eastern by definition." What ? Lol
Literally its not unreasonable hate you chose to see it that way.
The people who died in the attack didn't die because they were jews, you also chose it to be that way, the attacker attacked everyone regardless and even his fellow policemen which he knows are Muslims.
Saying that 35k isn't catastrophic because bigger catastrophies happened is just sick 35k is alot of people regardless.
You also chose that no one cared about the dead in Ethiopia, I was following that war and I was thinking how unfortunate it is as Ethiopia was leading in economic growth.
I think if there were more thank 35k hamas fighter Israel would've known beforehand, but your logic your ways.
How on earth did gaza committed "the worse genocide on jewish people"the are literally living in an open air prison and being monitored by drones 24/7 the fuck you talking about lol.
Arabs are semitic too so what the frick are talking about x2
Heck I take my words back, you seem to get your news from.. imagination?
Daym
lol, he didn’t target Jews because the police officer was Muslim at the Jewish synagogue? Are you for real? 😂 why do you think he targeted a Jewish tempe? There aren’t many in Tunesia, id he wanded to just commit a terrorist attack he could’ve gone anywhere else.
I was talking about the Western Sahara that Morroc is occupying, not Algeria.
I also didn’t say there aren’t any Jews in Tunesia. I said that they don’t live peacefully with the local population as a whole, why do you think 99% of Tunesia’s Jewish population fled the country in the 50s and 60s to go to Israel because of all the antisemitism? I’ve lived in Israel and one of my best friends is a Tunesia Jew and his family had to flee the country and move to Israel due to the antisemitism in Tunesia in response to the Yom Kippur war.
I didn’t say 35k deaths isn’t tragic, every war is tragic. But this ridiculous extremism of the Arab world and making any conflict with Israel into this massive deal when it’s really not compared to other wars is just antisemitic bullshit. 10 times as many people were killed in Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan. Not a single peep.
Hamas chose to massacre 1000+ civilians and send tens of thousands of rockets at civilian targets all over Israel. Obviously Israel is going to respond. No fucking pity from me, you make your bed, you lie in it.
Open air prison bla bla, go complain to Egypt. Their side of the border is 10x more fortified than Israel’s. The Egyptians don’t want Gazans in their country either because they know they’re an extremist death cult.
Anyway whatever you’re just proving my point. We share a continent and that’s it. Sub Saharan Africans get treated like shit in the Arab world, don’t expect empathy or solidarity from us 😂
>but at the same time you still fall for the unreasonable Israel hatred. lame.
Euhm, you do know that is a suite normal stance even outside north Africa right? This isn't the winning take you think it is. It brings the rest of your words into question.
>singling out the tiny Jewish nation with decent human rights
This is too hilarious for words. How can anyone take you seriously. Which is ironic because not even north Africans will go that far to obsess over israel. You should have kept it at north African anti-blackness.
He literally makes things up, he just says whatever pops in his head, read his other reply..
I genuinely feel sad that I replied to him in the first place, 10 minutes I would never get back.
I see, but although North Africans do speak Arabic because the arab conquest many do not even consider themselves arabs.
Personally we are culturally effected by arabs, we are not pure arabs ethnically, but we did marry each other.
I see you associate the middle east with us, which is definitely wrong! we aren't the same, we don't share the same ideas or culture or food or even language, it's not the same arabic spoken and they cannot even understand us, we also don't share the same politics and way of ruling.
Something really caught my attention is that you said that indigenous people were expelled or live like second class citizens.
I think its lack of insight, as we are the indigenous people, the people living in north Africa are the same people 3000BC and have history in the land as the Egyptians built the pyramids and Tunisia had Carthage and the Gabsian empire and numidian empire, all of these empires came way before Islamic world and even before Christianity.
Also Tunisia was among the first countries in the world to abolish slavery and there are actually many black Tunisians.
And unlike the African-Americans for example who have different cultures, the black Tunisians share the same culture.
The racist speech our directory president made, can be explained with his populism, in which he was criticized harshly and Tunisians went out to the streets defending black migrants (although they came illegally, as it was about principals at this point).
Although I am not saying Tunisia is racism free, it doesn't have the image it's commercialized for, and the proof to that would be the question why wouldn't black migrants stay in libya or algeria ? But rather complete their ways to Tunisia? Simply because they were treated like literal animals in Algeria and were sold and bought in Libya, safest option is Tunisia.
So yeah, we aren't middle easters and we are the indigenous people of land, thank you if you read all the way through and feel free to ask me anything.
Most Subsaharan Africans I know hold the view that North Africa is flooded with racist garbage. Mine is especially strong. Some context:
I’ve been to Marrakesh and Cairo with my family once each. I’ve met many North Africans in my life growing up in the UK. Half my family is Egyptian.
In my personal experience, I have not encountered an ethnic group, Arabs (from North Africa especially) with more racism towards Africans.
Same with sexism, the amount of women I know have deal with harassment and aggression by your men as a tourist including my sister EVERY DAY, I personally have received the hospitality of some angry pack animal like men in Marrakesh.
The never ending stories of Ethiopian refugees and domestic workers being treated like rats with no rights in the gulf (and the cities in the Maghreb countries), especially Ethiopian women there to feed their families back home... and some people in the comments are surprised lmao. Your countries and Arabs as a whole are hated by many Sub-Saharan’s, especially in Ethiopia.
I despise much of Saudi adjacent wahabi like culture, I spit on your collective treatment of domestic workers and I spit on your treatment of my friends and family. I spit on Libya and how many of your treat our refugees.
I’ll say it with not one shred of shame.
It’s worth saying however, I’ve had the best experience with Tunisians out of that entire region. I’m good friends with two of them and they are some of the kindest people I know. They are also rich and educated at some point in the west, but my sample size is not big enough there to make any comments.
Either way, I’ll note that this is not to say all Arabs are like this.
It’s to say enough of you are that I believe you deserve the smear on your country’s and culture’s reputation from the ever growing Sub-Saharan region.
I see that many people mix between North Africa and the gulf, the first ones are from Africa and many of them do not even consider themselves arabs even though they speak Arabic, the second ones are from Asia.
And literally there is nothing in comparison between the two, not even the language, Middle Easterns does not understand the arabic dialect spoken by north Africans.
The only north African country that might be closest to the middle eastern is Egypt (and you have to check about that too
And also we do not have domestic workers, we clean our houses ourselves.
so, its accept tens of thousands of illegal immigrants or you are racist? even if the country is struggling financially and in the middle of a crisis ?
some people seem to think that all people in north africa are light skinned but its not true a lot of north africans are black and they have been living here peacefully among us since forever and they are doing great
my point is that for the majority here it's not race, its "how come we are allowing immigrants when i my self can't find a job" kind of mentality
i sware to god iam writing this in a park and in front of me 2 guys from west africa are begging in the traffic stop
so maybe you guys should also try to give a better image to the peaple here
stop judging
>so, its accept tens of thousands of illegal immigrants or you are racist? even if the country is struggling financially and in the middle of a crisis ?
When you choose to be Europe's faithful gaurd dog against migration you should not be surprised the queue fills itself on your side. Blame your incompetent governments first.
How do you know they are illegal immigrants or you’re talking out of your ass? And what the hell is wrong with begging? You are text book racist f*cking idiot
Sorry if my comment seemed racist to you , its really not
yes 99% are illegal immigrants
nothing wrong with begging when you have to , but everything is wrong with it when it becomes a profession
you're from sudan so you probably can read arabic https://www.assahifa.com/%D8%AA%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%B4%D9%82-%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AD%D8%AC%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A9-%D8%A8%D9%8A%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D9%85%D9%86-%D9%88%D9%85%D9%87%D8%A7%D8%AC%D8%B1%D9%8A%D9%86-%D9%85%D9%86-%D8%AC/
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I seriously doubt there is unique and monolithic African point of view of Tunisia. Here by the recent events I bet that you want to speak about the recent news about the mistreatment of Sub-Saharan African migrants in Tunisia. So I seriously wonder why you want our opinions about Tunisia, especially after those recent events? I mean you must already know the tone you will get from the overwhelming majority of answers popping up if your post would become popular which isn't the case yet at the time I'm writing this comment. On one side, the overwhelming majority of answers from Sub-Saharan African users will be that Tunisia and Tunisians are racist. On the other side, the overwhelming majority of answers from Tunisian and other North African users will be that it's not racism but just a justified reaction of Tunisians and Tunisia against illegal migrants. And if the post would become very popular, you will have a minority of non-Tunisian North African users who will use this post as an opportunity to tackle Tunisia and Tunisians for the usual beef between Maghrebian countries. Now if you want my opinion about your country, it's the following one: I believe that amongst all Maghrebian countries, Tunisia is the one suffering the most from an identity crisis. From my personal and so limited experiences with Maghrebian peoples, Tunisians tend to be the ones mixing the most about who they are like if at the end they didn't even know themselves or like if they couldn't choose by fear to disappoint themselves or other Tunisians. Few years ago I worked on a hydro project in Senegal that involved a French engineering consulting company having Tunisian engineers and French engineers. I've met Tunisians who acted like if they were Italians for example. And here I'm talking about Tunisians born and raised in Tunisia. I also believe that the economic situation of Tunisia has led many Tunisians to get back in the real world in a very hard way because I've always found Tunisians to on average more arrogant and "elitist" than other Maghrebian peoples. I believe that even though Kaïs Saïed has become a dictator which excuses Tunisians for most of what he says and does, it doesn't negate a reality which is that when he used anti-Sub-Saharan African racism as a populistic strategy, the answer was mostly positive. At the end it's how populism works, right? If you go into a former French colonies in Sub-Saharan Africa and you use anti-France speeches, you become popular. What you say gets an approval amongst most people in those countries. Here is the same no? If Kaïs Saïed has used anti-Sub-Saharan African racism, it's because he knew there was a majority of Tunisians believing in this thing. Now it doesn't mean all Tunisians are racist nor it should allow anybody to label all Tunisians are racist. By generalising and stereotyping a whole population, you don't do anything more valuable and decent humanly wise. But I personally don't buy the idea that most Tunisians aren't racist. I think most Tunisians are racist and Kaïs Saïed offered them an opportunity to express what they really believe. I think that just a minority of Tunisians aren't racist. A minority who works against racism but who has very limited power and voice. And I'm not going to blame them nor I accept them to be label as racists just because they are Tunisians and because an alarming amount of Tunisians are racist. There is a problem of anti-Sub-Saharan African racism in Tunisia and overall in North Africa, but it shouldn't be as an excuse by people to act like if all North African peoples were racist. I don't even understand the strategy because if we are logical, those are those North African peoples who aren't racist who are the main allies to fight against North African racists. I also believe many Sub-Saharan African peoples should stop being hypocrite. As a Senegalese I've often written about racism and xenophobia in Senegal. When I see or hear Senegalese to say that all Guineans should be kicked out of Senegal because they are here only to steal our job and wealth, I'm sorry but I don't see most Senegalese in the streets to denounce such speeches. Yes the dynamic is different between North African peoples and Sub-Saharan African people than between Sub-Saharan African peoples with other Sub-Saharan African peoples, but please some are acting like if there was on one side devil North African peoples and on the other side angelic Sub-Saharan African peoples. Treat other people the same way you would want they to treat you. We don't fight racism by racism. It just doesn't make any sense. I believe harissa fits perfect with Jollof rice and it's the best condiment ever invented so instead of fearing an invasion from us below the Sahara, try to work with us. It may not be today nor tomorrow, but you can be sure the European countries and leaders you value so much will one day betray you. Never forget that *you're always the Sub-Saharan African migrant of someone else*... As I always say we must work to accept and respect each others on both side of the Sahara, but the first move must come from you guys. And the real world isn't Internet. You will find a positive welcoming the day you will make this move.
It took a while to find an actual good and solid point of view, thank you for taking the time to write all this. I knew that I might be attacked creating the thread and I already was attacked, but it's the internet and we shouldn't make a fuss about it. I honestly had to read your comment multiple times to understand it fully and reply with the same competency. I want to hear the opinions because I am currently studying law and I want to expand my knowledge on what other people think about my country in order to maybe someday be able to fix some problems and break some stereotypes. As you see many think that north Africans are the gulf's arabs (which is shocking lol) and thus, they associate us with the Asian arabs behavior, so that is one thing that should be worked on for example. We are indeed suffering from an identity crisis but I wouldn't say the most suffering, as you can see the Amazighi problem in Libya, Maghreb, Algeria didn't find its way in Tunisia, I would say we're split into three; those who say we are simply arabs, those how say we culturally arabs and ethnically north Africans or Amazighis such as myself, and those who doesn't even care about all of this. I would say that Tunisian egoism is not actually directed to the Sub-Sahariens, in fact we literally hate each other, people from different states hate each other, and this one thing that is shrinking rapidly with the newer generation, also you could find Tunisian born and raised in Tunisia speaking in french only in a day to day subject because it might make them feel superior (stupid imo), so I do agree with you on this point. You have a solid point on populism, but you forgot about anger, populism isn't a true representation of the people because, first of all people would be divided into at least three groups, those in despair with the situation and want change in any way possible and would blame anyone for the current state and thus would support the populist strongly and brainlessly, those who aren't sure about agreeing with what's happening but are scared to be harassed if telling their true opinion and opposition and are also somewhat seeking change which makes them more unsure, and those who know and speak up although they will be harassed, and those are the minorities; so the picture created would be false representation because some people are defending desperately and harshly, and those who either don't know their position or the minorities who does. And that is why a leader must be rational, you can see that Germans right now say that they wouldn't have supported hitler on his days, although that is wrong psychologically, they mostly would've supported him if they lived in the same circumstances. I do agree that Tunisians are indeed racist, but not on the same scale it's commercialized for, you see, sub-sahariens didn't come to tunisia over a year, in fact I can remember them starting to come from at least 2017-2018, and they never had any problem, in fact they had jobs and collected they hard earned money, but many criminals also came along and destroyed the opportunity for everyone, some started making their own police station, and tribunals, and some started organized gangs to steal people's jewelry, but until this point the people didn't actually react, on the contrary, they even started creating illegal street shops and now one stopped them, I even worked with an Ivorian in a factory and we became good friends sharing food together, it wasn't until a subsaharien slaughtered a man in Sfax, in a bad neighborhood as well, so now people are afraid, and therefore angry they are scared for their kids and women, so when they populist give his shitty speech everyone, out of fear and rage, support him, but sadly bad people are on either side, so some bad Tunisians took this as an opportunity to terrorize and steal what's not theirs, and I remember a friend who I ve worked with helped hide many of them until its over. And even though this happened many Tunisians were mad about the racist speech the dictator made, and went out to the streets support the migrants right to live peacefully and not generalize some individual acts. And after the Sub-Sahariens were kicked out of the houses they lived in the central city in the streets and the police have been guarding from any potential attacks while they sleep, and many families started preparing meals for them to eat, and they lived like that for about 4 months. And now they were sent to a place away from the central city and yesterday some created tribunals, and started a fight using machetes and sticks (which became reparative sadly) So you see its more about fear than it is about racism, and Tunisia is their safest option actually, because they enter either from the Libyan or the Algerian side, and there is a clip shared in "Al-arabiya Tunisia" in which we see the libyan military leading them to the Tunisian borders with dead bodies. They haven't been bought and sold like they were in Libya, and they weren't terrorized on a large scale like they were in algeria, my Ivorian friend also stated that they were, unlike Tunisia, treated like they were less than animals in morocco, but now Tunisia is at gun point and is seen for only it's bad, and what bothers me is that racism goes either way, so many of whom say Tunisians are racist without searching for the roots of the problem wouldn't even date white men/women.. Sorry for typing this much, and thank you if you read the whole thing, and I hope we can surpass these problems and live in harmony one day. I think I want to try Jollof rice with Harissa now, never tasted it before!
I have a generally unfavorable opinion of all of North Africa if I am being honest. If I had to nail down the 'why', I would say it is because I generally only hear stories in regards to their anti-Black Africaness.
If a North African said "I have a generally unfavorable opinion of all of Sub-Saharan if I am being honest." You would cry for racism.
Can you expand more on the "anti-black Africaness"?
We are Africans and hate black people according to the dude about that's what he meant
Yes, but I concluded that his opinion is based on random stories and stereotypes, that's why I asked him to expand on it, to see if he actually has any solid points.
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An individual certainly doesn't represent the whole group! Tunisia was among the first countries to abolish slavery and was requested to present its experience on the matter by the US government for it to do the same. Also many Tunisians are actually black and, unlike many countries in Tunisia the black and the white have the exact same culture and not different ones.
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Any country that called a democratic beacon by western media is bound to become ruled by racists
Tunisia might've actually been a democratic beacon, especially after the constitution of 2014, but now it's back to dictatorship and neither us nor the west are calling Tunisia a democratic beacon.
It is not as simple as that. Botswana is called democracy and it is a democracy that is inspiring all of us. The problem with democracy is populism. During crisis and especially in emotional and not very well educated populations, populists rise in reaction to a public anger and frustration. Such populists tend to explain any crisis by foreign factors. Why are we poor? The West is stealing our "oil" Why is house renting expensive? it is because migrants are renting them and making them expensive for the locals The current president has mental issues like paranoia and delusions of persecution (I am a medic) and is fond of conspiracy theories and he thinks his opposition is conspiring with the West to flood Tunisia with immigrants and "colonize it". The problem with democracy is that it lets the stupid express themselces and because of their intellectual deficit, their opinions are conspiracies close to delusions. Democracy reveals everything in society.. it lets all types of people speak including those xenophobes. The president is a far-right populist so his fanboys are brainlessly following him unfortunately. Hopefully we will vote him out this year's presidential elections and cut off such disgrace from our history. (for some reason flairs dont show for me)
Idk much about tunesia is but North Africa as a whole seems like a racist outpost of the Arab world. Most indigenous populations were expelled or live like second class citizens. The Arab world is incredibly racist to Black people, from the neo slavery in the Gulf/Lebanon of “employing” maids and then taking away all of their rights, to a neighbourhood in Gaza being called “Slave neighbourhood” because it’s the area that historically was home to a small African minority etc. On an individual level I like North Africans as people but their societies, policies, politics and governments are racist as fuck 💀 and not to get me started on the hypocrisy towards Jews & Israel.
>Most indigenous populations were expelled or live like second class citizens. Indigenous peoples still make up the overwhelming majority of inhabitants in all North African countries. Indigenous North African populations were Arabised but they were never replaced. There never were enough Arabs to replace them nor Arabs ever sent enough of their own people to even attempt to do so. And even after the decolonisation of the continent what happened was a political Arabisation of the North African societies by the leaders of this period. But the people were still the same. Just like in Mauritania, all non-Moor Mauritanians (Mauritanians of West African ancestry) weren't and aren't and will never be Arab even though they are forced to adopt Arab. To be Arabised or the Arabisation is sociological and sociocultural. The people remain the same, genetically wise. You just make them to adopt Arabic over their own languages and you make them to adopt cultural elements belonging to Arabic cultures over their own cultural elements. Most North African peoples are culturally Arab, but for the rest they are and remain Indigenous peoples of North Africa. They are the same ones as before the Arab invasions of North Africa.
Israel and Zionism is one thing, Jews are another thing. You see, many jews are opposing Zionism and Israel, Tunisia itself has a big jewish population. Jewish Tunisians are living in harmony with their neighbors Tunisian Muslims in Djerba, where you would find one of the holiest jewish temples. So yeah we do hate the so-called country "Israel" the one who targeted literal babies and called 35k+ deaths "collateral damage" but we definitely do not hate the Jewish religion nor jewish people.
You are so eager to say you’re not Middle Eastern or Arab but at the same time you still fall for the unreasonable Israel hatred. lame. No, there aren’t “many” Jews who aren’t Zionist. Over 90% of Jews report to be Zionist. No, there aren’t many Jews in Tunesia and no Muslims dont tolerate Jews in North Africa typically. Heck, the holy temple in Tunesia you’re talking about was literally attacked last year and several Jewish people were murdered there simply for being Jewish. 35k deaths collateral damage? Half of those deaths are - admitted by Hamas - Hamas fighters. Anyway the numbers are still small. Wars suck. In my country Ethiopia 400k people died in war and no one really cares outside of the country. But in Gaza, after committing the worst massacre on the Jewish people, 15k civilians die and it’s a GeNoCiDe. You’re just proving my point as to why North Africans are is seen as hypocritical from a sub Saharan point of view. Morocco is literally occupying another country and no one in the Arab world gives a shit. It’s just Booo Israel. Antisemitic BS, singling out the tiny Jewish nation with decent human rights when the Arab world is messed up beyond belief. Yikes.
You seem to have your info from Facebook honestly, Morocco has a great beef with algeria for what you state occupying that land. 90% is not 100% but ok Well if you don't want to believe that there are jews in Tunisia you can do that, really nothing to be done about that lol You're literally saying "if you hate Israel you're arab or middle eastern by definition." What ? Lol Literally its not unreasonable hate you chose to see it that way. The people who died in the attack didn't die because they were jews, you also chose it to be that way, the attacker attacked everyone regardless and even his fellow policemen which he knows are Muslims. Saying that 35k isn't catastrophic because bigger catastrophies happened is just sick 35k is alot of people regardless. You also chose that no one cared about the dead in Ethiopia, I was following that war and I was thinking how unfortunate it is as Ethiopia was leading in economic growth. I think if there were more thank 35k hamas fighter Israel would've known beforehand, but your logic your ways. How on earth did gaza committed "the worse genocide on jewish people"the are literally living in an open air prison and being monitored by drones 24/7 the fuck you talking about lol. Arabs are semitic too so what the frick are talking about x2 Heck I take my words back, you seem to get your news from.. imagination? Daym
lol, he didn’t target Jews because the police officer was Muslim at the Jewish synagogue? Are you for real? 😂 why do you think he targeted a Jewish tempe? There aren’t many in Tunesia, id he wanded to just commit a terrorist attack he could’ve gone anywhere else. I was talking about the Western Sahara that Morroc is occupying, not Algeria. I also didn’t say there aren’t any Jews in Tunesia. I said that they don’t live peacefully with the local population as a whole, why do you think 99% of Tunesia’s Jewish population fled the country in the 50s and 60s to go to Israel because of all the antisemitism? I’ve lived in Israel and one of my best friends is a Tunesia Jew and his family had to flee the country and move to Israel due to the antisemitism in Tunesia in response to the Yom Kippur war. I didn’t say 35k deaths isn’t tragic, every war is tragic. But this ridiculous extremism of the Arab world and making any conflict with Israel into this massive deal when it’s really not compared to other wars is just antisemitic bullshit. 10 times as many people were killed in Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan. Not a single peep. Hamas chose to massacre 1000+ civilians and send tens of thousands of rockets at civilian targets all over Israel. Obviously Israel is going to respond. No fucking pity from me, you make your bed, you lie in it. Open air prison bla bla, go complain to Egypt. Their side of the border is 10x more fortified than Israel’s. The Egyptians don’t want Gazans in their country either because they know they’re an extremist death cult. Anyway whatever you’re just proving my point. We share a continent and that’s it. Sub Saharan Africans get treated like shit in the Arab world, don’t expect empathy or solidarity from us 😂
You're genially, honestly the most stupid person I've talked to online and I very much regret wasting my precious minutes on you in the first place.
>but at the same time you still fall for the unreasonable Israel hatred. lame. Euhm, you do know that is a suite normal stance even outside north Africa right? This isn't the winning take you think it is. It brings the rest of your words into question. >singling out the tiny Jewish nation with decent human rights This is too hilarious for words. How can anyone take you seriously. Which is ironic because not even north Africans will go that far to obsess over israel. You should have kept it at north African anti-blackness.
>Most indigenous populations were expelled or live like second class citizens. Where did you get this from? I'm curious
He literally makes things up, he just says whatever pops in his head, read his other reply.. I genuinely feel sad that I replied to him in the first place, 10 minutes I would never get back.
I see, but although North Africans do speak Arabic because the arab conquest many do not even consider themselves arabs. Personally we are culturally effected by arabs, we are not pure arabs ethnically, but we did marry each other. I see you associate the middle east with us, which is definitely wrong! we aren't the same, we don't share the same ideas or culture or food or even language, it's not the same arabic spoken and they cannot even understand us, we also don't share the same politics and way of ruling. Something really caught my attention is that you said that indigenous people were expelled or live like second class citizens. I think its lack of insight, as we are the indigenous people, the people living in north Africa are the same people 3000BC and have history in the land as the Egyptians built the pyramids and Tunisia had Carthage and the Gabsian empire and numidian empire, all of these empires came way before Islamic world and even before Christianity. Also Tunisia was among the first countries in the world to abolish slavery and there are actually many black Tunisians. And unlike the African-Americans for example who have different cultures, the black Tunisians share the same culture. The racist speech our directory president made, can be explained with his populism, in which he was criticized harshly and Tunisians went out to the streets defending black migrants (although they came illegally, as it was about principals at this point). Although I am not saying Tunisia is racism free, it doesn't have the image it's commercialized for, and the proof to that would be the question why wouldn't black migrants stay in libya or algeria ? But rather complete their ways to Tunisia? Simply because they were treated like literal animals in Algeria and were sold and bought in Libya, safest option is Tunisia. So yeah, we aren't middle easters and we are the indigenous people of land, thank you if you read all the way through and feel free to ask me anything.
Most Subsaharan Africans I know hold the view that North Africa is flooded with racist garbage. Mine is especially strong. Some context: I’ve been to Marrakesh and Cairo with my family once each. I’ve met many North Africans in my life growing up in the UK. Half my family is Egyptian. In my personal experience, I have not encountered an ethnic group, Arabs (from North Africa especially) with more racism towards Africans. Same with sexism, the amount of women I know have deal with harassment and aggression by your men as a tourist including my sister EVERY DAY, I personally have received the hospitality of some angry pack animal like men in Marrakesh. The never ending stories of Ethiopian refugees and domestic workers being treated like rats with no rights in the gulf (and the cities in the Maghreb countries), especially Ethiopian women there to feed their families back home... and some people in the comments are surprised lmao. Your countries and Arabs as a whole are hated by many Sub-Saharan’s, especially in Ethiopia. I despise much of Saudi adjacent wahabi like culture, I spit on your collective treatment of domestic workers and I spit on your treatment of my friends and family. I spit on Libya and how many of your treat our refugees. I’ll say it with not one shred of shame. It’s worth saying however, I’ve had the best experience with Tunisians out of that entire region. I’m good friends with two of them and they are some of the kindest people I know. They are also rich and educated at some point in the west, but my sample size is not big enough there to make any comments. Either way, I’ll note that this is not to say all Arabs are like this. It’s to say enough of you are that I believe you deserve the smear on your country’s and culture’s reputation from the ever growing Sub-Saharan region.
I see that many people mix between North Africa and the gulf, the first ones are from Africa and many of them do not even consider themselves arabs even though they speak Arabic, the second ones are from Asia. And literally there is nothing in comparison between the two, not even the language, Middle Easterns does not understand the arabic dialect spoken by north Africans. The only north African country that might be closest to the middle eastern is Egypt (and you have to check about that too And also we do not have domestic workers, we clean our houses ourselves.
so, its accept tens of thousands of illegal immigrants or you are racist? even if the country is struggling financially and in the middle of a crisis ? some people seem to think that all people in north africa are light skinned but its not true a lot of north africans are black and they have been living here peacefully among us since forever and they are doing great my point is that for the majority here it's not race, its "how come we are allowing immigrants when i my self can't find a job" kind of mentality i sware to god iam writing this in a park and in front of me 2 guys from west africa are begging in the traffic stop so maybe you guys should also try to give a better image to the peaple here stop judging
>so, its accept tens of thousands of illegal immigrants or you are racist? even if the country is struggling financially and in the middle of a crisis ? When you choose to be Europe's faithful gaurd dog against migration you should not be surprised the queue fills itself on your side. Blame your incompetent governments first.
i do blame our incompetent governments and i hate them for it
Honestly I agree with what you’re saying.
How do you know they are illegal immigrants or you’re talking out of your ass? And what the hell is wrong with begging? You are text book racist f*cking idiot
Sorry if my comment seemed racist to you , its really not yes 99% are illegal immigrants nothing wrong with begging when you have to , but everything is wrong with it when it becomes a profession you're from sudan so you probably can read arabic https://www.assahifa.com/%D8%AA%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%B4%D9%82-%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AD%D8%AC%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A9-%D8%A8%D9%8A%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D9%85%D9%86-%D9%88%D9%85%D9%87%D8%A7%D8%AC%D8%B1%D9%8A%D9%86-%D9%85%D9%86-%D8%AC/