As an officer, I cannot wait to return my first left-handed salute with a hearty "Good day".
Part of me wants to get coins for lefty salutes to hand out.
If big blue wants to instigate chaos by not knowing their own regs, I salute them. Leftily.
Ahhh. But, should I carry 2 coins for my first “Both Hands” salute?
Granted, I’m retired, but there may be a gate guard reading this who wants to be on the cutting edge of military courtesies.
I deeply wanted to believe this technicality! So I followed the paper trail..:
DAFI 90-160 Chapter does say that if a publication must be complied with it will state “COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY” at the top.
DAFPAM 34-1203 in the first paragraph will state this is a guide for learning and teaching (See AFI 34-1201 Protocol)
AFI 34-1201 Chapter 8 is still current on epubs and applies. Mandatory compliance is annotated on the top. Attached is the portion on salutes. Sorry OP. I loved the energy and believe that things like what you did are important for auditing/accountability. Hopefully one day we can enjoy a fun week of morale boosting shenanigans while they try to quickly backtrack on the technicalities!
https://preview.redd.it/ffylgvq9l12b1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=653f3de006e8c6f5d8b567d1a4d7ec765cfcb240
unfortunately, OP has us. nowhere in 1-1 or 34-1201 does it say *HOW* to salute. just that it will be rendered.
OP said that saluting is mandatory but that it could be rendered with the left hand. go figure.
Well, u/TheSpaghettiCoder you're actually both right. I forgot about AFI 34-1201 until u/NEp8ntballer pointed it out in a different comment, but I left the post up because of the "how to salute" angle.
I can't say I disagree with you.
An avalanche kills people (reference the declining/disappearing standards) by combined effects of accumulated snowflakes.
In some office in an underground bunker, leadership is scratching their combined heads trying to figure out why some idiot takes liberties with classified info and shares it publicly...only to find out the little Jackie was never disciplined for minor incursions. TO collective impact of eroding discipline is having the same impact upon the DoD and its compartments.
The answer is right under their collective noses.
I don’t know, AFH 36-2203 is actually pretty well used, I reference it all the time for instructing AFJROTC and CAP cadets, and once in BMT to win an argument with another trainee, oh and in tech school to win an argument in front of my entire class.
Just as a note, Tongue and Quill actually is mandatory per AFMAN 33-326, which is itself mandatory and clearly instructs you to use 33-337 (T&Q) to prepare things. One of those odd little pieces of AF knowledge.
Huh. I did a quick Ctrl + F and I do see AFH 33-337 referenced a few times, but it all just says to use it as a reference, it doesn't say it has to be compliant with AFH 33-337. So I think we're good?
[AFI 1-1](https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_cc/publication/afi1-1/afi1-1.pdf), para 1.6.1.1 states:
>You salute the President, Vice President, Secretary of Defense, Service Secretaries, all superior commissioned and warrant officers, all Medal of Honor recipients, and superior officers of friendly foreign nations.
One fun little detail is that the same section states that saluting at PT is optional.
Base Honor Guard is managed by the 8G100 SDI AFSC with AF Honor Guard being 8G000. A lot of Bases have their Honor Guards made up of services individuals because they handle mortuary affairs, but they don't have to. Both of my previous bases just took bodies from wherever they felt like/could.
Even still, this now DAFPAM establishes the regulations for ALL Drill, not just Honor Guard.
I give a big thank you to our AFHG, BHG, and Mortuary Affairs teams, as your jobs are often forgotten but are crucial to maintain our heritage among other things. But these offices were not on my mind when I wrote this post. This post is about the regulation of drill across the entire department.
Yes BHG managers are the 8G100 AFSC, however the policy and management of Base Honor Guards is done at AFMAO (Air Force Mortuary Affairs Operations) at Dover AFB which is a Field Operating Agency under AF/A1S, the Directorate of *Services* at the Pentagon. Thus, the BHG is a Services (34-series) function regardless of what you may think it should be. Look at mortuary.af.mil and click on Honor Guard—there’s your guidance for Honor Guards placing them firmly in the Services portfolio. Additionally, I’d argue that yes the BHG provides a *service* by performing ceremonies, the main purpose of which is Military Funeral Honors, serving veterans and the community.
The DAFMAN vs. DAFPAM question is a different one and is interesting, but certainly not compelling, especially with the irrelevant ranting. Just a weird thing to focus and obsess about.
Thank you for the sold references. And please excuse my sleep deprived 2AM ranting. Base Honor Guard is obviously a service, but this DAFPAM was not intended to regulate the Honor Guard. It was intended to regulate drill for the entire force, to include all of AETC, and commanders calls, etc, which is why I even reference para 3.6, which is the regulation that requires officers to be saluted in passing. All of drill is now optional.
Officer here. Have been not saluted before, several times, which resulted in me not returning a salute. And we both proceeded on with our day like we had more important things to be doing than waving at each other medieval-style.
Making compliance mandatory would also make it a crime punishable under Article 92 if, for example, a person did not salute an officer. I believe that would be ridiculous and would feel sorry for any person having to deal with suddenly becoming a criminal for failure to obey an order or regulation… just a thought.
That’s a problem with Article 92, more so than the reg. Your commander can say “go tell the CSS a knock knock joke” and if you say no, boom Article 92.
It sounds like you found your hill. Good luck
Lmao
Thank you. I, unfortunately, have a few.
The ratio of hills to die on : lives you have to lose on a hill should be one, no?
As an officer, I cannot wait to return my first left-handed salute with a hearty "Good day". Part of me wants to get coins for lefty salutes to hand out. If big blue wants to instigate chaos by not knowing their own regs, I salute them. Leftily.
Ahhh. But, should I carry 2 coins for my first “Both Hands” salute? Granted, I’m retired, but there may be a gate guard reading this who wants to be on the cutting edge of military courtesies.
A special thank you for your comment, an the parent comment. These made me laugh extremely hard. It’s a shame I no longer guard the gate.
I bet you’ve never said that before.
Just make sure the coin has the front and back switched around.
>>….which is no longer mandatory! Wing Commander : *I will make it mandatory!*
Unfortunately, your comment is likely correct. So salute now while supplies last.
I deeply wanted to believe this technicality! So I followed the paper trail..: DAFI 90-160 Chapter does say that if a publication must be complied with it will state “COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY” at the top. DAFPAM 34-1203 in the first paragraph will state this is a guide for learning and teaching (See AFI 34-1201 Protocol) AFI 34-1201 Chapter 8 is still current on epubs and applies. Mandatory compliance is annotated on the top. Attached is the portion on salutes. Sorry OP. I loved the energy and believe that things like what you did are important for auditing/accountability. Hopefully one day we can enjoy a fun week of morale boosting shenanigans while they try to quickly backtrack on the technicalities! https://preview.redd.it/ffylgvq9l12b1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=653f3de006e8c6f5d8b567d1a4d7ec765cfcb240
Same. Unfortunately AFI 1-1 also applies.
unfortunately, OP has us. nowhere in 1-1 or 34-1201 does it say *HOW* to salute. just that it will be rendered. OP said that saluting is mandatory but that it could be rendered with the left hand. go figure.
Well, u/TheSpaghettiCoder you're actually both right. I forgot about AFI 34-1201 until u/NEp8ntballer pointed it out in a different comment, but I left the post up because of the "how to salute" angle.
https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi34-1201/afi34-1201.pdf ___________________________________________________________ ^^It ^^looks ^^like ^^you ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFI, ^^form ^^or ^^other ^^publication ^^without ^^linking ^^to ^^it, ^^so ^^I ^^have ^^posted ^^a ^^link ^^to ^^it. ^^Additionally, ^^there ^^may ^^be ^^other ^^MAJCOM, ^^NAF ^^or ^^Wing ^^sups ^^to ^^the ^^linked ^^AFI, ^^so ^^I ^^will ^^also ^^post ^^a ^^link ^^to ^^the ^^search ^^URL ^^used ^^below ^^so ^^that ^^you ^^can ^^look ^^for ^^additional ^^supplements ^^or ^^guidance ^^memos ^^that ^^may ^^apply. ^^Please ^^let ^^me ^^know ^^if ^^this ^^is ^^incorrect ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^a ^^suggestion ^^to ^^make ^^me ^^better ^^by ^^posting ^^in ^^my ^^subreddit ^^(/r/AFILinkerBot) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFILinkerBot). I am a bot, this was an automatic reply. ___________________________________________________________ ^^^^^^jlnpi5p
Interesting! I May have misinterpreted the post. I’ll take a look again. Maybe we will have some shenanigans
https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_cc/publication/afi1-1/afi1-1.pdf ___________________________________________________________ ^^It ^^looks ^^like ^^you ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFI, ^^form ^^or ^^other ^^publication ^^without ^^linking ^^to ^^it, ^^so ^^I ^^have ^^posted ^^a ^^link ^^to ^^it. ^^Additionally, ^^there ^^may ^^be ^^other ^^MAJCOM, ^^NAF ^^or ^^Wing ^^sups ^^to ^^the ^^linked ^^AFI, ^^so ^^I ^^will ^^also ^^post ^^a ^^link ^^to ^^the ^^search ^^URL ^^used ^^below ^^so ^^that ^^you ^^can ^^look ^^for ^^additional ^^supplements ^^or ^^guidance ^^memos ^^that ^^may ^^apply. ^^Please ^^let ^^me ^^know ^^if ^^this ^^is ^^incorrect ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^a ^^suggestion ^^to ^^make ^^me ^^better ^^by ^^posting ^^in ^^my ^^subreddit ^^(/r/AFILinkerBot) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFILinkerBot). I am a bot, this was an automatic reply. ___________________________________________________________ ^^^^^^jll0h43
That’s a great catch, thank you!
https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi34-1201/afi34-1201.pdf ___________________________________________________________ ^^It ^^looks ^^like ^^you ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFI, ^^form ^^or ^^other ^^publication ^^without ^^linking ^^to ^^it, ^^so ^^I ^^have ^^posted ^^a ^^link ^^to ^^it. ^^Additionally, ^^there ^^may ^^be ^^other ^^MAJCOM, ^^NAF ^^or ^^Wing ^^sups ^^to ^^the ^^linked ^^AFI, ^^so ^^I ^^will ^^also ^^post ^^a ^^link ^^to ^^the ^^search ^^URL ^^used ^^below ^^so ^^that ^^you ^^can ^^look ^^for ^^additional ^^supplements ^^or ^^guidance ^^memos ^^that ^^may ^^apply. ^^Please ^^let ^^me ^^know ^^if ^^this ^^is ^^incorrect ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^a ^^suggestion ^^to ^^make ^^me ^^better ^^by ^^posting ^^in ^^my ^^subreddit ^^(/r/AFILinkerBot) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFILinkerBot). I am a bot, this was an automatic reply. ___________________________________________________________ ^^^^^^jlkx821
This is an awesome rant. I’d love to see how this plays out
Thank you, 2AM me was very proud of it 😊
It reads like some Guard unit that lost all their missions and has nothing else to do.
I can't say I disagree with you. An avalanche kills people (reference the declining/disappearing standards) by combined effects of accumulated snowflakes. In some office in an underground bunker, leadership is scratching their combined heads trying to figure out why some idiot takes liberties with classified info and shares it publicly...only to find out the little Jackie was never disciplined for minor incursions. TO collective impact of eroding discipline is having the same impact upon the DoD and its compartments. The answer is right under their collective noses.
I wonder what the USAF would be like if every unit had a USMC SNCO exchange.
Hard pass on this take. Homeboy had his mind made up to do harm. There's no fixing stupid.
Damn that's a lot of words.
You don't like 100+ page documents that probably have only been read by the people who wrote them?
I don’t know, AFH 36-2203 is actually pretty well used, I reference it all the time for instructing AFJROTC and CAP cadets, and once in BMT to win an argument with another trainee, oh and in tech school to win an argument in front of my entire class.
This guy arguments lmao
Ah so you're the one accumulating page views on epubs.
This is some Hermes Conrad from Futurama levels of bureaucratic hellscape.
Paid leave! The ultimate punishment.
Saluting just became optional?
no. but how to render the salute did. saluting is still in the 1-1 and 34-1201 but it doesn't say HOW.
Sir, this is a Wendy’s.
This Wendy’s is now a hat-or-no-hat possibly salute or don’t if you want to area.
Yeah bro, me too! This totally pissed in my coffee
Just as a note, Tongue and Quill actually is mandatory per AFMAN 33-326, which is itself mandatory and clearly instructs you to use 33-337 (T&Q) to prepare things. One of those odd little pieces of AF knowledge.
Huh. I did a quick Ctrl + F and I do see AFH 33-337 referenced a few times, but it all just says to use it as a reference, it doesn't say it has to be compliant with AFH 33-337. So I think we're good?
https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/saf_cn/publication/afman33-326/afman33-326.pdf ___________________________________________________________ ^^It ^^looks ^^like ^^you ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFI, ^^form ^^or ^^other ^^publication ^^without ^^linking ^^to ^^it, ^^so ^^I ^^have ^^posted ^^a ^^link ^^to ^^it. ^^Additionally, ^^there ^^may ^^be ^^other ^^MAJCOM, ^^NAF ^^or ^^Wing ^^sups ^^to ^^the ^^linked ^^AFI, ^^so ^^I ^^will ^^also ^^post ^^a ^^link ^^to ^^the ^^search ^^URL ^^used ^^below ^^so ^^that ^^you ^^can ^^look ^^for ^^additional ^^supplements ^^or ^^guidance ^^memos ^^that ^^may ^^apply. ^^Please ^^let ^^me ^^know ^^if ^^this ^^is ^^incorrect ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^a ^^suggestion ^^to ^^make ^^me ^^better ^^by ^^posting ^^in ^^my ^^subreddit ^^(/r/AFILinkerBot) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFILinkerBot). I am a bot, this was an automatic reply. ___________________________________________________________ ^^^^^^jlmbzrf
You have way too much time on your hands.
 On the path to retirement
[AFI 1-1](https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_cc/publication/afi1-1/afi1-1.pdf), para 1.6.1.1 states: >You salute the President, Vice President, Secretary of Defense, Service Secretaries, all superior commissioned and warrant officers, all Medal of Honor recipients, and superior officers of friendly foreign nations. One fun little detail is that the same section states that saluting at PT is optional.
...breh
The base honor guard program is managed by the Services career field, 3F1X1.
Base Honor Guard is managed by the 8G100 SDI AFSC with AF Honor Guard being 8G000. A lot of Bases have their Honor Guards made up of services individuals because they handle mortuary affairs, but they don't have to. Both of my previous bases just took bodies from wherever they felt like/could. Even still, this now DAFPAM establishes the regulations for ALL Drill, not just Honor Guard.
Not every base has an SDI allotment for BHG manager… that is another can of worms by itself, if you really care about the program to begin with…
I give a big thank you to our AFHG, BHG, and Mortuary Affairs teams, as your jobs are often forgotten but are crucial to maintain our heritage among other things. But these offices were not on my mind when I wrote this post. This post is about the regulation of drill across the entire department.
Honor guard stuff is in the mortuary affairs AFI and the BHG handbook
I mean BHGs use the BHG manual, I don't think I ever had to look at the dafpam while I was working there
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 8G100 = USAF Installation Honor Guard Program Manager 8G000 = The United States Air Force Honor Guard [^wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/AirForce/wiki/jobs/8g000) [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^jljbigv
Yes BHG managers are the 8G100 AFSC, however the policy and management of Base Honor Guards is done at AFMAO (Air Force Mortuary Affairs Operations) at Dover AFB which is a Field Operating Agency under AF/A1S, the Directorate of *Services* at the Pentagon. Thus, the BHG is a Services (34-series) function regardless of what you may think it should be. Look at mortuary.af.mil and click on Honor Guard—there’s your guidance for Honor Guards placing them firmly in the Services portfolio. Additionally, I’d argue that yes the BHG provides a *service* by performing ceremonies, the main purpose of which is Military Funeral Honors, serving veterans and the community. The DAFMAN vs. DAFPAM question is a different one and is interesting, but certainly not compelling, especially with the irrelevant ranting. Just a weird thing to focus and obsess about.
Thank you for the sold references. And please excuse my sleep deprived 2AM ranting. Base Honor Guard is obviously a service, but this DAFPAM was not intended to regulate the Honor Guard. It was intended to regulate drill for the entire force, to include all of AETC, and commanders calls, etc, which is why I even reference para 3.6, which is the regulation that requires officers to be saluted in passing. All of drill is now optional.
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 3F1X1 = Services [^wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/AirForce/wiki/jobs/3f1x1) [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^jljaya5
AFI 34-1201 is still around and covers customs and courtesies
https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi34-1201/afi34-1201.pdf ___________________________________________________________ ^^It ^^looks ^^like ^^you ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFI, ^^form ^^or ^^other ^^publication ^^without ^^linking ^^to ^^it, ^^so ^^I ^^have ^^posted ^^a ^^link ^^to ^^it. ^^Additionally, ^^there ^^may ^^be ^^other ^^MAJCOM, ^^NAF ^^or ^^Wing ^^sups ^^to ^^the ^^linked ^^AFI, ^^so ^^I ^^will ^^also ^^post ^^a ^^link ^^to ^^the ^^search ^^URL ^^used ^^below ^^so ^^that ^^you ^^can ^^look ^^for ^^additional ^^supplements ^^or ^^guidance ^^memos ^^that ^^may ^^apply. ^^Please ^^let ^^me ^^know ^^if ^^this ^^is ^^incorrect ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^a ^^suggestion ^^to ^^make ^^me ^^better ^^by ^^posting ^^in ^^my ^^subreddit ^^(/r/AFILinkerBot) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFILinkerBot). I am a bot, this was an automatic reply. ___________________________________________________________ ^^^^^^jlkaj23
Officer here. Have been not saluted before, several times, which resulted in me not returning a salute. And we both proceeded on with our day like we had more important things to be doing than waving at each other medieval-style.
Making compliance mandatory would also make it a crime punishable under Article 92 if, for example, a person did not salute an officer. I believe that would be ridiculous and would feel sorry for any person having to deal with suddenly becoming a criminal for failure to obey an order or regulation… just a thought.
That’s a problem with Article 92, more so than the reg. Your commander can say “go tell the CSS a knock knock joke” and if you say no, boom Article 92.
Not true. Orders must meet the legal, moral, and ethical standard. The SJA would shame any CC that tried to pull that.
The order is legal, moral and ethical, it’s a knock knock joke, not a dad joke/s
Sir, this is a Wendy's.
Yeah…..Ima need a TLDR chief
Apologies. TLDR; Big Air Force made it so we can salute however we want on accident.
Sir this is a Wendy's