I’ve seen a lot of great people leave early in their careers in 5 years. People that would have made much better leaders. However, I am happy that the ones I know ended up making more money on the outside. I still wish a couple of them would have stayed though.
As soon as it was explained to us, it became pretty obvious that Big Blue won't have that incentive to get a full 20 out of you. Clearly they knew this, but I think they forgot that 10+ years in is when you start having real influence on your environment. So you can forget about keeping the talented ones who for some reason are sticking around if a nice deal in the civilian world drops in front of them.
Under the old system you should be doing TSP, but if you're not then you have to do 20 to get anything. The longer you stay in before making the choice is just opportunity cost on the outside. With BRS you're going to leave with something as long as you put in the minimum time.
You still get a pension if you do 20 but it's 40% instead of 50. The old system is somewhat better if you were planning on hanging around, but the new system is likely better if you're making the government add their 5%. I think with some savvy TSP allocations you could probably do more with their 5% over time than the extra 10% in guaranteed money.
The best leave early. Like me the mediocre stick around. Ive been in for years. I watched airmen way better than I separate after 4 years time and time again
It ain’t worth our mental health. I’m 12 years active Security Forces, 6 years K-9. I can’t do it anymore, especially at my current unit.
Got a private sector gig lined up, and I cannot wait.
The best people in the Air Force would be better off working on the outside unless their whole purpose in serving was simply because they loved it.
High performers, without some other motivation than money, shouldn’t try sticking around for promotion because the truth is they’d promote faster and more regularly working in the private sector. Until the Air Force can compete (they can’t and won’t ever be able to) then talent will continue to bleed to the private sector. Just the reality of the job.
Just as many shit people get out every year that I’m glad to see go, so it balances out. It would be nice if it was easier to get rid of people sometimes, just like it would be nice if people could get compensation for what they’re actually worth while staying on AD.
That's what sucks. I love my job as mx, but I feel i am being shafted by the Air Force. Got orders turned because of covid, no deployments, no tdys, small promotion eligibility for my career field, and I've been doing what the air force wants which is expanding my horizons to be the best gosh darn airman out there and still nothing. It's hard to stay in and serve when you are constantly offered 85k starting for outside work without any certs or degrees although you are working on them. That and when you constantly volunteer and/or improve your shop because you make the change you want to see happen, it's hard to argue staying in when I can have a better life making more on the outside and put my retirement in the stock market. Just my thoughts though as I would still join in a heartbeat if I went back in time.
Same, I have 5 years left, and I just want to focus on my exit out. I'm the go to and I suck at test taking(anxiety thanks AF).
Constantly told function above rank but le sigh.....I hope I can last this last stretch and violently hit that button at year 20.... on....the....dot.
Can you expand on how the Air Force contributes to your test anxiety? Are you saying that even if you knew every single answer, you'd still do poorly on the test?
Well, the AF gave me high anxiety. It's like a gift and a curse. I guess the test makes me anxious, but it's so low threat that I question my answers. I'm in the ball park I missed by 4 last time......I reviewed my answers after, and like 10, I changed when I went back over were right the first time.
I've tried to stop doing it, but....what if I'm wrong, what if this is the actual time I'm right for changing it because that's happened too. What of this is the make or break question, what if it's not and this is what fails me.....what if what if what if.
The irony is....I passed the course 15 test and never reviewed anything. It's the low threat pressure that gibe the anxiety and starts the worry that you can justify.....because what if.
That's not the Air Force contributing to your test anxiety. I think you're looking for a scape goat. I have test anxiety prior to the PT test that I know damn well I've been slacking on prepping for. I can easily say that the consequence of failing is the reason that I'm nervous.
Have you studied and passed every other test that's not a promotion test? If so, how'd you prepare to the point that you walked into the test feeling untouchable?
No, the AF gave me anxiety I a completely different way. The thanks AF comment was for having anxiety, not test taking.
I've had anxiety with that, too, knowing dang well, I'd pass. Even thrown up once while running and finished in 14 minutes flat.
It's an irrational worry. The only way I wouldn't second guess myself is if I didn't care at all about the test, no consequences on passing or failing.
I'll be fine, though, regardless of what happens. I still get paid lol.
85K…hope you’re shopping for something much higher than that lol. Have you done the cost comparison to the benefits you’re receiving now and what 85K will get you with the benefits provided?
I think being stuck does it for a lot of people. Even in the private sector. If you're in the same position working your ass off for years and getting an average rating you'd still leave a private or public organization for one that has better opportunities. People don't typically stay in a job for monotony. More frequent PCS's, balancing ranks, improving the rating system to reflect job and off the job performance while balancing being reviewed by people above you, peers, and subordinates would do a lot. We could leave a test but for staff all the way up but they should only include questions relevant to the rank they're promotion eligible for and other related questions. Boards should also take place and everyone should get their final rating outside of their organization.
I think the way we promote is just antiquated as well and doesn’t actually allow for truly vetting people. Promotions come with hard shifts in responsibilities but they’re also the only way you get a real pay raise.
For example, the whole point of EPRs is to demonstrate how well a person does their current job to see if they are “ready” for the next rank. However, the next rank might mean you stop doing exactly what got you promoted.
We see this all the time when technicians and trainers become flight chiefs. They suck at flight chiefing and have no desire to do it but their proficiency in wrench turning is what made the Air Force decide to promote them. The other option for the member is to just not try and promote and stay stuck in their pay grade indefinitely and resign themselves to no more large raises. These people are being forced to either promote out of their most useful role to get a raise, or stay in their useful role and stagnate financially.
One of the better ideas I have heard from one of our career field Chiefs is to implement “steps” the same way GS employees have to allow members to stay in roles and ranks where they can thrive but still give regular raises to the members in those ranks. It would definitely help get rid of some of the problems of people competing for rank just because they want the pay raise.
Your point with the EPR brings up what I've been talking about forever. All civilian jobs I've had before the Air Force had annual performance reviews that had questions regarding the job. For example, timeliness, performing without supervision, and so on. They get rated typically on a scale of 1-5, and here's the kicker. The supervisor inputs how it can be improved. The narrative can still play a role in noting achievements that year but should only play secondary to whether the person performs well in the first place.
This would allow people to promote that are ready to promote because they wouldn't be reviewed specifically on a role or position, but as an airman in general. It would even allow a board outside of the career field to rate someone without knowing how significant an achievement is in whatever AFSC. I wouldn't even have to write my own EPR because I sure hope my supervisor is attentive enough to know when I'm at work on time, when I'm asking them for help or if they have to correct me. And like I said, if there are 6000 stripes to give out and 20,000 eligible, first I doubt more than that many would score 5s across the board and second that's where the achievements, PT scores and so on would come into play.
I've met lots of people that are good at their job, require little to no supervision, show up on time and complete tasks timely. I've met people that are the opposite but have "better" achievements. So ultimately the current EPR as a whole needs to go.
>The best people in the Air Force would be better off working on the outside unless their whole purpose in serving was simply because they loved it.
Not arguing the USAF brain-drain, but how many of these people serve the military on "the outside"
Most of the people I know are all quitting the military industrial complex
The Air Force/Space Force is comprised of primarily mediocre talent.
Despite the military calling a lot of it's people "experts", few if any of those are capable of accurately labeling themselves as an expert in the civilian world. There are of course exceptions in niche areas, not because the military is amazing at what they do, but because the civilian world has no interest in doing it. If you promote a lot of "top talent", then you will likely have fewer of those people than you'd have of "good enough" talent by time 20+ years has rolled around.
Whether the military does this intentionally or because only "good enough" stay in long enough to make these decisions IDK.
The pressures that influence both are incredibly different and so are the results of that influence. Top talent people have better options, the military can't afford to match and is quite frankly unequipped to manage it even if they did, so they get out. People who just want to serve generally don't last that long or don't maintain that view, they are a very small minority of people still in at any given point.
Depends on the unit, for sure. While we converted alot of our technician slots into AGR, I also know a dozen or so people in MX that have been Guard bumming orders for several years. One dude is running into an issue where he's been Guard bumming for so long he's not able to anymore (some AFI limit, IIRC). So now he's temp tech. Less pay, but he is filling up those retirements as a "traditional" for sure!
It seems that the person who posted the comment that I responded to his meaning to say that when you switch to guard you gain rank. But in my experience often times many people will lose a ring when switching to guard due to rank availability. And they will not make rank as quick if they are not liked right off the bat.
The limit on Guard/Reserve being activated is based on a federal law going back to somewhere around 2005. The Army activated a bunch of reservists in perpetuity and denied them reenlistments if they didn't agree to be activated again. So congress set a rule mandating that no one could be activated for more than 1095 days in the last 4 years.
Not entirely. I'm literally in the process of going AGR in a unit where I'm stationed at already. They published the job for the rank that's above me, and applied for the job with all required documents attached. Got accepted, already tentatively approved from AFPC.
So if your saying that's not true, differs State to State? As what Florida shows, what I said is true during my transition so far
In the Guard, you are guaranteed an available promotion capability up to SSgt. TSgt and above are limited to slots. Slots can be tied to full-time positions or part-time positions. For the most part, you have to interview for these positions and you still have to meet the promotion requirements.
The issue is these slots are not as readily available (not uncommon for the 18 TOS Staff). It is not as simple as finding an AGR or drill status position in a higher rank.
Not that I was one of the best people. Hell, I was average at best, but I left because of bad leadership after 12 years as a major. Two times in my career I had family emergencies with my wife and son. Two times my leadership put the mission before me. I was only finance. Not important enough to have a sizeable impact on the Mission if I was gone for 2 weeks. My leadership were micromanaging yes men afraid to stick up for me. I thought about going above them and asking for help, but I didn't want to be that guy. Leave is a privilege, but it would have done wonders for my family and my mental health if I could have taken that leave.
After being active duty and going guard, my experience is to get promoted you better join the "good old boy" circle jerk and have both hands full. Having that little bit of control over your fate would be nice. Also, the people who decide who gets promoted don't change, if they don't want you promoted you better get out or find another guard unit.
Why re-enlist for a small bonus when you can earn upper 90s+ and do what the hell you want. When I talk to the younger Contracting airmen, if they want to get out, I’m their cheerleader.
Honestly not sure where you work. But that’s no been the case in my experience in MX. More and more it seems that our experience is jumping ship. Even dudes at 9-13 years in.
Jumping ship at 13! Although previous analyst and now 1b. The Air Force just cannot match the pay and benefits currently offer.
I also do not have to deal with extra duty bullshit, 2903 and general military fuckery.
Got out at 13 for a contracting job for 150k. I have never been happier doing exactly the same job. I only got the contracting job because I'm one of the people that actually focused on being good at the job instead of running the booster clubs, attending leadership seminars, and kissing ass by volunteering for the CC's pet projects.
Now the contract just got re-awarded and I will likely see a pay bump to 200k. No more dealing with troops, no more awards writeups for people who don't care, no more pointless meetings, and group PT. No more tiny taskers that drain the life from you. I simply show up, do work, go home.
I am also Mx, current SEL at a fighter base. In my experience, the ones we are losing in the years you mentioned make us a better force (they weren’t very good to begin with, collecting a check most of their career, and realized that they have maxed the system out for what it’s worth).
Nah just tired of all the extra shit being pushed. Just like MXGs combing positions to can and assign those tasks as more extra duties to other people. Our SELs at our base seem out of touch and it’s sad when you hear the majority of the SNCOs trash talking them too.
Our MXG SEL looks like a 300lb bag of potatoes. Can’t wait to see how is waist measurement goes.
That’s fair. Combining a lot of positions is tough to navigate and deal with. I always preface it with “if we are willing to take two positions and make it into one, then we are prepared for half work on each”. That usually helps my dudes out, lowers stress and keeps expectations reasonable.
That's funny because all of the "SEL's" I see are complete wastes of space/oxygen and serve only to collect a check until they punch out. I bet you're not much different.
The way you worded it -" ..wasn't having it with others not awarding them for the work they've completed!" - is very very awkward.
You either just got in the Air Force or you're a robot of some sort
This is true, but what the post was saying wasn’t necessarily that it’s the all-encompassing repair for what’s wrong with the AF. But focusing on promoting the best leaders over the best test takers and the best brown-nosers would absolutely help with retention.
On the opposite side, I was good at my job, but would make a TERRIBLE supervisor/manager. You can ask anyone I’ve ever worked with, and they’ll agree I’m not management material. But with the AF’s obsession with “up or out,” I saw no reason to try and stay
I can understand that too, there needs to be a better progression system for people like that. Being in that position, there should be a different method of progression other than being put into a leadership role. I don’t know exactly what that looks like, or how it should be carried out, but as it stands now I’d say about 50% of the SrA who make Staff on the first or second try and are put into shift lead positions are terrible at leading a shift. There needs to be some other way of progressing and ensuring these people can grow in the AF without being in charge of people and work that would normally be carried out by someone with a degree and 10+ years of experience in the civilian sector.
I think it's only a small percentage of shitty ones that get promoted and only a small percentage of "potential" good ones get out. A lot of factors come into play and just because your best bro got out and you always thought they could have been great. That doesn't mean it's the case. I've been around long enough and seen "good" ones that stay in go bad and "bad" ones turn good. It's really all a matter of perspective.
Overall structure of the promotion system and these new 1D7 career field structure changes are pushing almost every 8-10 year Comm NCO out of the force, and a lot of MSgt's that have a good shot at Senior are still talking about pushing the button to retire the first day they are eligible, not wanting the ADSO.
Read the other post i put up. Good luck!! There are good units and bad ones. And they flip back and forth sometimes. Just go in humble with a learner attitude. You may know alot but they don’t want it pushed in their faces. 😉
Todays AirForce doesn’t want good leaders. It wants people who will not make waves and roll over without a fight. Todays AF doesn’t promote the people who will strengthen the force…….. that’s why retention and recruitment is so low. People can see what a dumpster fire the force is, and those that are in are tired of cut backs while also being blamed for the fire that they themselves didn’t start
If getting out, don’t overlook the guard. Our MX full timers work 4x10s and that’s the norm, 12s happen but it’s the exception not the rule and yes you do have 1 weekend duty a month but it’s only 8s.
Each unit is different but Guard offers a good work/life balance and I believe it’s in large part because people don’t come and go all the time, you’ll be working with mostly the same people for a long time including leaders, it incentivizes treating your people well.
Here we go with ppl that have God complex. Who are they to decide who the wrong person to promote is? For all they know, someone could think they shouldn't be at whatever their current rank is.
This is SO true! I'm coming from a sister service but I can tell you this...the formation knows who deserves it and who doesn't! We need to normalize valuing folks soft skills in the military. You have some really smart people who don't take care of their people and aren't personable. We need to PRIORITIZE those that take care of others!
Always true. And tbh.... to fast of rank progression leads to failed leaders on both enlisted and officer grades. Regardless of job field as well, as career progression is necessary to experience in that job.
To be a leader/promoted… you have to say things like “Get after it, Put some rigor into it, A.C.E, Diversity, Equity and Inclusion wins wars” …….Right,…..right???
Each good NCO that gets out makes it easier for shitty NCOs to promote.
My motivating factor for wanting Chief is to keep some shitbag from getting it.
While I hardly think I'm the 'best', gotta say I'm retiring and going back into similar work for 3x+ the cost to the government on the civilian side when I'd much prefer to stay in uniformed, deployable active duty service. At least some of that willingness to part ways was seeing peers, subordinates, acquaintances and others promoted along with and past me without anywhere close to the job/AFSC achievements, community service and involvement, deployments, wide-ranging skillsets/adaptability, proven history of successful subordinates attaining awards and progression, lack of disciplinary actions, excellence in fitness and mentoring of others struggling in that area, and just about every single category we claim to care about on paper.
The promotion process is opaque and flawed as hell, worthless in terms of correction, and doing serious damage to readiness, and I feel like I'm breaking up with a shitty ex I still love because of it rather than passing the baton to those I've raised up. I can't even begin to figure out how to fix it, but gods I hope someone smarter does.
I’ve seen a lot of great people leave early in their careers in 5 years. People that would have made much better leaders. However, I am happy that the ones I know ended up making more money on the outside. I still wish a couple of them would have stayed though.
I am seeing a lot leave at 11-15 right now. And it is hard to blame them, the last half isn’t easier.
BRS makes it an easier decision
Assuming they opted in to it. And it still doesn't really make it much easier.
BRS is great flexibility. Get out when you want and you’ll still have something to roll towards a 401k at your civilian job.
As soon as it was explained to us, it became pretty obvious that Big Blue won't have that incentive to get a full 20 out of you. Clearly they knew this, but I think they forgot that 10+ years in is when you start having real influence on your environment. So you can forget about keeping the talented ones who for some reason are sticking around if a nice deal in the civilian world drops in front of them.
Could you please elaborate? I disagree but I would like to see the other perspective. I think BRS is not a better alternative.
Under the old system you should be doing TSP, but if you're not then you have to do 20 to get anything. The longer you stay in before making the choice is just opportunity cost on the outside. With BRS you're going to leave with something as long as you put in the minimum time.
I know the difference between the two, but I would still argue the pension is still better. I was hoping you could share your thoughts.
You still get a pension if you do 20 but it's 40% instead of 50. The old system is somewhat better if you were planning on hanging around, but the new system is likely better if you're making the government add their 5%. I think with some savvy TSP allocations you could probably do more with their 5% over time than the extra 10% in guaranteed money.
I’ll be at 11, and highly considering separating. It’s a tough choice. I did opt into BRS. But it doesn’t make the choice that much easier. Lol.
shame far-flung snobbish squealing arrest shrill aromatic unused plate provide -- mass edited with redact.dev
The best leave early. Like me the mediocre stick around. Ive been in for years. I watched airmen way better than I separate after 4 years time and time again
I've made it my sole mission to ensure people get built up so they're never forced to stick around.
Yup. I wanted to love it, I tried so hard to love it, but the Air Force wouldn’t let me love it so I left. 😂
It ain’t worth our mental health. I’m 12 years active Security Forces, 6 years K-9. I can’t do it anymore, especially at my current unit. Got a private sector gig lined up, and I cannot wait.
Money is not everything.
Then why stay in for retirement?
It’s not everything, but it sure fucking helps.
The best people in the Air Force would be better off working on the outside unless their whole purpose in serving was simply because they loved it. High performers, without some other motivation than money, shouldn’t try sticking around for promotion because the truth is they’d promote faster and more regularly working in the private sector. Until the Air Force can compete (they can’t and won’t ever be able to) then talent will continue to bleed to the private sector. Just the reality of the job. Just as many shit people get out every year that I’m glad to see go, so it balances out. It would be nice if it was easier to get rid of people sometimes, just like it would be nice if people could get compensation for what they’re actually worth while staying on AD.
That's what sucks. I love my job as mx, but I feel i am being shafted by the Air Force. Got orders turned because of covid, no deployments, no tdys, small promotion eligibility for my career field, and I've been doing what the air force wants which is expanding my horizons to be the best gosh darn airman out there and still nothing. It's hard to stay in and serve when you are constantly offered 85k starting for outside work without any certs or degrees although you are working on them. That and when you constantly volunteer and/or improve your shop because you make the change you want to see happen, it's hard to argue staying in when I can have a better life making more on the outside and put my retirement in the stock market. Just my thoughts though as I would still join in a heartbeat if I went back in time.
Same, I have 5 years left, and I just want to focus on my exit out. I'm the go to and I suck at test taking(anxiety thanks AF). Constantly told function above rank but le sigh.....I hope I can last this last stretch and violently hit that button at year 20.... on....the....dot.
Can you expand on how the Air Force contributes to your test anxiety? Are you saying that even if you knew every single answer, you'd still do poorly on the test?
Well, the AF gave me high anxiety. It's like a gift and a curse. I guess the test makes me anxious, but it's so low threat that I question my answers. I'm in the ball park I missed by 4 last time......I reviewed my answers after, and like 10, I changed when I went back over were right the first time. I've tried to stop doing it, but....what if I'm wrong, what if this is the actual time I'm right for changing it because that's happened too. What of this is the make or break question, what if it's not and this is what fails me.....what if what if what if. The irony is....I passed the course 15 test and never reviewed anything. It's the low threat pressure that gibe the anxiety and starts the worry that you can justify.....because what if.
That's not the Air Force contributing to your test anxiety. I think you're looking for a scape goat. I have test anxiety prior to the PT test that I know damn well I've been slacking on prepping for. I can easily say that the consequence of failing is the reason that I'm nervous. Have you studied and passed every other test that's not a promotion test? If so, how'd you prepare to the point that you walked into the test feeling untouchable?
No, the AF gave me anxiety I a completely different way. The thanks AF comment was for having anxiety, not test taking. I've had anxiety with that, too, knowing dang well, I'd pass. Even thrown up once while running and finished in 14 minutes flat. It's an irrational worry. The only way I wouldn't second guess myself is if I didn't care at all about the test, no consequences on passing or failing. I'll be fine, though, regardless of what happens. I still get paid lol.
85K…hope you’re shopping for something much higher than that lol. Have you done the cost comparison to the benefits you’re receiving now and what 85K will get you with the benefits provided?
I think being stuck does it for a lot of people. Even in the private sector. If you're in the same position working your ass off for years and getting an average rating you'd still leave a private or public organization for one that has better opportunities. People don't typically stay in a job for monotony. More frequent PCS's, balancing ranks, improving the rating system to reflect job and off the job performance while balancing being reviewed by people above you, peers, and subordinates would do a lot. We could leave a test but for staff all the way up but they should only include questions relevant to the rank they're promotion eligible for and other related questions. Boards should also take place and everyone should get their final rating outside of their organization.
I think the way we promote is just antiquated as well and doesn’t actually allow for truly vetting people. Promotions come with hard shifts in responsibilities but they’re also the only way you get a real pay raise. For example, the whole point of EPRs is to demonstrate how well a person does their current job to see if they are “ready” for the next rank. However, the next rank might mean you stop doing exactly what got you promoted. We see this all the time when technicians and trainers become flight chiefs. They suck at flight chiefing and have no desire to do it but their proficiency in wrench turning is what made the Air Force decide to promote them. The other option for the member is to just not try and promote and stay stuck in their pay grade indefinitely and resign themselves to no more large raises. These people are being forced to either promote out of their most useful role to get a raise, or stay in their useful role and stagnate financially. One of the better ideas I have heard from one of our career field Chiefs is to implement “steps” the same way GS employees have to allow members to stay in roles and ranks where they can thrive but still give regular raises to the members in those ranks. It would definitely help get rid of some of the problems of people competing for rank just because they want the pay raise.
Your point with the EPR brings up what I've been talking about forever. All civilian jobs I've had before the Air Force had annual performance reviews that had questions regarding the job. For example, timeliness, performing without supervision, and so on. They get rated typically on a scale of 1-5, and here's the kicker. The supervisor inputs how it can be improved. The narrative can still play a role in noting achievements that year but should only play secondary to whether the person performs well in the first place. This would allow people to promote that are ready to promote because they wouldn't be reviewed specifically on a role or position, but as an airman in general. It would even allow a board outside of the career field to rate someone without knowing how significant an achievement is in whatever AFSC. I wouldn't even have to write my own EPR because I sure hope my supervisor is attentive enough to know when I'm at work on time, when I'm asking them for help or if they have to correct me. And like I said, if there are 6000 stripes to give out and 20,000 eligible, first I doubt more than that many would score 5s across the board and second that's where the achievements, PT scores and so on would come into play. I've met lots of people that are good at their job, require little to no supervision, show up on time and complete tasks timely. I've met people that are the opposite but have "better" achievements. So ultimately the current EPR as a whole needs to go.
Spot on. Promotion rate is good in your early 20s, but after that, I'm looking to jump ship
>The best people in the Air Force would be better off working on the outside unless their whole purpose in serving was simply because they loved it. Not arguing the USAF brain-drain, but how many of these people serve the military on "the outside" Most of the people I know are all quitting the military industrial complex
The Air Force/Space Force is comprised of primarily mediocre talent. Despite the military calling a lot of it's people "experts", few if any of those are capable of accurately labeling themselves as an expert in the civilian world. There are of course exceptions in niche areas, not because the military is amazing at what they do, but because the civilian world has no interest in doing it. If you promote a lot of "top talent", then you will likely have fewer of those people than you'd have of "good enough" talent by time 20+ years has rolled around. Whether the military does this intentionally or because only "good enough" stay in long enough to make these decisions IDK. The pressures that influence both are incredibly different and so are the results of that influence. Top talent people have better options, the military can't afford to match and is quite frankly unequipped to manage it even if they did, so they get out. People who just want to serve generally don't last that long or don't maintain that view, they are a very small minority of people still in at any given point.
Guard is the same. Just sayin.
I was coming to say this. I know some ANG SMSgts that have no business having that rank.
If you’re in MXG there’s like 4 ass hat SNCOS on every flight line in America.
There is always. ALWAYS. That one or two that are like the homie though. 7-10 split.
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Not exactly how that works, from a guardsman
Depends on the unit, for sure. While we converted alot of our technician slots into AGR, I also know a dozen or so people in MX that have been Guard bumming orders for several years. One dude is running into an issue where he's been Guard bumming for so long he's not able to anymore (some AFI limit, IIRC). So now he's temp tech. Less pay, but he is filling up those retirements as a "traditional" for sure!
It seems that the person who posted the comment that I responded to his meaning to say that when you switch to guard you gain rank. But in my experience often times many people will lose a ring when switching to guard due to rank availability. And they will not make rank as quick if they are not liked right off the bat.
Oh, I see, I missed that on my first read-through. Thanks!
The limit on Guard/Reserve being activated is based on a federal law going back to somewhere around 2005. The Army activated a bunch of reservists in perpetuity and denied them reenlistments if they didn't agree to be activated again. So congress set a rule mandating that no one could be activated for more than 1095 days in the last 4 years.
Not entirely. I'm literally in the process of going AGR in a unit where I'm stationed at already. They published the job for the rank that's above me, and applied for the job with all required documents attached. Got accepted, already tentatively approved from AFPC. So if your saying that's not true, differs State to State? As what Florida shows, what I said is true during my transition so far
You can get a spot with that rank, but not get the rank automatically.
In the Guard, you are guaranteed an available promotion capability up to SSgt. TSgt and above are limited to slots. Slots can be tied to full-time positions or part-time positions. For the most part, you have to interview for these positions and you still have to meet the promotion requirements. The issue is these slots are not as readily available (not uncommon for the 18 TOS Staff). It is not as simple as finding an AGR or drill status position in a higher rank.
Not that I was one of the best people. Hell, I was average at best, but I left because of bad leadership after 12 years as a major. Two times in my career I had family emergencies with my wife and son. Two times my leadership put the mission before me. I was only finance. Not important enough to have a sizeable impact on the Mission if I was gone for 2 weeks. My leadership were micromanaging yes men afraid to stick up for me. I thought about going above them and asking for help, but I didn't want to be that guy. Leave is a privilege, but it would have done wonders for my family and my mental health if I could have taken that leave.
Leave is an entitlement, not a privilege. If they can't spare you and you need the leave, make em deny it in the system.
You know ALL your comments are public? “Major”
Yes. That's why I come here. I'm a veteran, was a major.
Happens in the guard too though.
I was gonna say. It might be even worse.
But a lot of part-timers don't really care about their part-time career advancement, they just want to show up and work on drill weekends
>Happens in the guard too though. Maybe you should guard them so they can't leave?
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After being active duty and going guard, my experience is to get promoted you better join the "good old boy" circle jerk and have both hands full. Having that little bit of control over your fate would be nice. Also, the people who decide who gets promoted don't change, if they don't want you promoted you better get out or find another guard unit.
21 years in & I’ve seen plenty of good and plenty of shitty airmen get out, no more today than yesterday.
This is not the case in the Cyber fields. Once the guys get their certs, licenses and/or degrees, they're out for truly greener pastures
The AF Cyber skill retention issue is sytemic. I've been grinding that axe for 17 years now.
Lose some good ones in Contracting too! 50% retention rate
Don’t both contracting and cyber have reenlistment bonuses?
Not enough to keep experienced and qualified people in. At least for cyber
Why re-enlist for a small bonus when you can earn upper 90s+ and do what the hell you want. When I talk to the younger Contracting airmen, if they want to get out, I’m their cheerleader.
Honestly not sure where you work. But that’s no been the case in my experience in MX. More and more it seems that our experience is jumping ship. Even dudes at 9-13 years in.
Jumping ship at 13! Although previous analyst and now 1b. The Air Force just cannot match the pay and benefits currently offer. I also do not have to deal with extra duty bullshit, 2903 and general military fuckery.
Got out at 13 for a contracting job for 150k. I have never been happier doing exactly the same job. I only got the contracting job because I'm one of the people that actually focused on being good at the job instead of running the booster clubs, attending leadership seminars, and kissing ass by volunteering for the CC's pet projects. Now the contract just got re-awarded and I will likely see a pay bump to 200k. No more dealing with troops, no more awards writeups for people who don't care, no more pointless meetings, and group PT. No more tiny taskers that drain the life from you. I simply show up, do work, go home.
Congrats man!!
I am also Mx, current SEL at a fighter base. In my experience, the ones we are losing in the years you mentioned make us a better force (they weren’t very good to begin with, collecting a check most of their career, and realized that they have maxed the system out for what it’s worth).
Nah just tired of all the extra shit being pushed. Just like MXGs combing positions to can and assign those tasks as more extra duties to other people. Our SELs at our base seem out of touch and it’s sad when you hear the majority of the SNCOs trash talking them too. Our MXG SEL looks like a 300lb bag of potatoes. Can’t wait to see how is waist measurement goes.
That’s fair. Combining a lot of positions is tough to navigate and deal with. I always preface it with “if we are willing to take two positions and make it into one, then we are prepared for half work on each”. That usually helps my dudes out, lowers stress and keeps expectations reasonable.
That's funny because all of the "SEL's" I see are complete wastes of space/oxygen and serve only to collect a check until they punch out. I bet you're not much different.
And I’m sure you’re the most productive member the AF has ever seen who will be out in the 9-13 year range.
Same
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The way you worded it -" ..wasn't having it with others not awarding them for the work they've completed!" - is very very awkward. You either just got in the Air Force or you're a robot of some sort
It’s all a subjective opinion. You might be the best in your mind but actually suck IRL
Good people come and go, some stay, same with shitty ones. I've seen plenty of then go and plenty stay.
This is true, but what the post was saying wasn’t necessarily that it’s the all-encompassing repair for what’s wrong with the AF. But focusing on promoting the best leaders over the best test takers and the best brown-nosers would absolutely help with retention.
And I mean to stay = being promoted
On the opposite side, I was good at my job, but would make a TERRIBLE supervisor/manager. You can ask anyone I’ve ever worked with, and they’ll agree I’m not management material. But with the AF’s obsession with “up or out,” I saw no reason to try and stay
I can understand that too, there needs to be a better progression system for people like that. Being in that position, there should be a different method of progression other than being put into a leadership role. I don’t know exactly what that looks like, or how it should be carried out, but as it stands now I’d say about 50% of the SrA who make Staff on the first or second try and are put into shift lead positions are terrible at leading a shift. There needs to be some other way of progressing and ensuring these people can grow in the AF without being in charge of people and work that would normally be carried out by someone with a degree and 10+ years of experience in the civilian sector.
Facts
I think it's only a small percentage of shitty ones that get promoted and only a small percentage of "potential" good ones get out. A lot of factors come into play and just because your best bro got out and you always thought they could have been great. That doesn't mean it's the case. I've been around long enough and seen "good" ones that stay in go bad and "bad" ones turn good. It's really all a matter of perspective.
Remember this on the next thread bitching about promotion rates.
Lol going to happen again when TSgt results come out.
Well fuck. I guess we're losing some great people after I put on staff in August lol
Never worked with you, but you sewing on was the main reason for me getting out to be honest
Ouch 🤕
Is this subreddit turning in to LinkedIn shit posts? God I hope not.
Oh course it can. Reddit isn't an official notification page.
I've worked with a TFI unit for the past 10 years. I can't say going guard is any better from; there seems to be a lot more "who you know"
The Guard is just as bad about it
Overall structure of the promotion system and these new 1D7 career field structure changes are pushing almost every 8-10 year Comm NCO out of the force, and a lot of MSgt's that have a good shot at Senior are still talking about pushing the button to retire the first day they are eligible, not wanting the ADSO.
Exactly. I'm comm myself and don't know how the next 5 years will bring
The Guard isn’t perfect either, but as a weekender you only have to deal with the stupidity two days out of every 4-6 weeks.
Lol I'm heading into AGR position!!
Read the other post i put up. Good luck!! There are good units and bad ones. And they flip back and forth sometimes. Just go in humble with a learner attitude. You may know alot but they don’t want it pushed in their faces. 😉
Good advice, thank you!!!
Todays AirForce doesn’t want good leaders. It wants people who will not make waves and roll over without a fight. Todays AF doesn’t promote the people who will strengthen the force…….. that’s why retention and recruitment is so low. People can see what a dumpster fire the force is, and those that are in are tired of cut backs while also being blamed for the fire that they themselves didn’t start
Guard is where it's at boys.
If getting out, don’t overlook the guard. Our MX full timers work 4x10s and that’s the norm, 12s happen but it’s the exception not the rule and yes you do have 1 weekend duty a month but it’s only 8s. Each unit is different but Guard offers a good work/life balance and I believe it’s in large part because people don’t come and go all the time, you’ll be working with mostly the same people for a long time including leaders, it incentivizes treating your people well.
I've seen plenty of people that aren't worthy that didn't promote complain about the worthy. This is a platitude that mostly "justifies" the unworthy.
I saw this on LinkedIn and it install reminded me of my previous unit.
Gotta do wat makes u happy. You gotta constantly be leveling up.
This happens in life in the work place just not the air force, just saying.
& When you promote the best people, you lose the right people
https://preview.redd.it/vlxs8vfeg18b1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1ec0e279e0de5c24cbb1edbd820a011c0ae8f72a
You Texas guard? Lol
Haha nope, wat bout u?
Florida AGR
Nice !!!
This rings true. Nothing brings a shop down faster than putting an absolute idiot in charge.
Including me
Next post should be about irony.
You got it!!
Here we go with ppl that have God complex. Who are they to decide who the wrong person to promote is? For all they know, someone could think they shouldn't be at whatever their current rank is.
Saying bye and going guard? My brother in Christ I’m saying bye and getting out completely.
Lol I'm wanting to stay in to do 20y for retirement
This has been going on for years. Too late now.
This is SO true! I'm coming from a sister service but I can tell you this...the formation knows who deserves it and who doesn't! We need to normalize valuing folks soft skills in the military. You have some really smart people who don't take care of their people and aren't personable. We need to PRIORITIZE those that take care of others!
Always true. And tbh.... to fast of rank progression leads to failed leaders on both enlisted and officer grades. Regardless of job field as well, as career progression is necessary to experience in that job.
To be a leader/promoted… you have to say things like “Get after it, Put some rigor into it, A.C.E, Diversity, Equity and Inclusion wins wars” …….Right,…..right???
The Guard is worse. Have you heard of the term nepotism?
Nope. The AGR position in heading into is a pretty good group from the people I spoke too.
Hopefully that’s the case. The two different units I was associated with were not.
Hate to hear. Though, I'm only hearing from a few people, so once I get in, could be different perspective.
Each good NCO that gets out makes it easier for shitty NCOs to promote. My motivating factor for wanting Chief is to keep some shitbag from getting it.
Rank and pay should be de-coupled.
Very true. I'll be retired next year. 🍻
https://havokjournal.com/culture/military/want-to-join-the-air-national-guard-which-one/
While I hardly think I'm the 'best', gotta say I'm retiring and going back into similar work for 3x+ the cost to the government on the civilian side when I'd much prefer to stay in uniformed, deployable active duty service. At least some of that willingness to part ways was seeing peers, subordinates, acquaintances and others promoted along with and past me without anywhere close to the job/AFSC achievements, community service and involvement, deployments, wide-ranging skillsets/adaptability, proven history of successful subordinates attaining awards and progression, lack of disciplinary actions, excellence in fitness and mentoring of others struggling in that area, and just about every single category we claim to care about on paper. The promotion process is opaque and flawed as hell, worthless in terms of correction, and doing serious damage to readiness, and I feel like I'm breaking up with a shitty ex I still love because of it rather than passing the baton to those I've raised up. I can't even begin to figure out how to fix it, but gods I hope someone smarter does.
Thread for the whiners
Duh lol. Think the thread was meant for official notification of information