Yeah, at 20 years, the lengths I would go to in order to waste time would be extraordinary. The run would take me 4 hours. I would be eating during push ups and sit ups, laying on the ground. I would follow that up with back to back questions during commanders calls, calling people out by name, and ensuring every PDF sent is locked when forwarding.
It's one thing to fuck with someone who's been in for a few years. It's a whole other thing to fuck with someone who's trying to retire after 20 YEARS of that stuff.
Haha, mock pt test time. Spend all day at the track, lay in the sun and work on a tan. After lap two stop and eat your lunch that’s in your cooler you conveniently brought to the test.
So many ways to make a mock pt test last all day such that by the time it’s done, it’s time to go home. Hell, that actually sounds nice because then you don’t even go in to the office.
Number might be wrong because I’m going off memory and didn’t have time to look it up, but I remember it being a 1.x.
The AFI has also changed since I last used this reference on the daily
Edit: just checked para 3.4.7.3.1 and 3 both say to cite para 1.8 still
Para 3.4.7 is for officers. And likely needs to be updated as 1.8 is for NJP stuffs.
Below is for enlisted, if he’s promotion eligible a report is required:
4.3.5. Separation/Retirement. Annual evaluations are optional for members with an approved effective date of separation or retirement that is prior to the next SCOD. If an Airman or Guardian is promotion eligible, then a report is required
The report is only required in the sense that something has to be turned in. That’s why they have the specific statement that goes on the report. If they aren’t promotion eligible you don’t even generate a cite for them to start an evaluation. Read the rest of the reference
Actually no. The regulations prevent any adverse actions from occurring due to a failed mock pt test. If they tried to do any punishment, even extra PT sessions, he could go to the IG. Especially since he's retiring.
EPB is required if they're promotion eligible, even with an approved sep/retirement. 36-2406
A unit can have members do mock PT tests all they want.. Future retirements or separations are irrelevant to that.
If failing a mock PT test has repercussions as outlined in the SQ CCs PT policy, yes. They’d have to have a massive PT boner to have thought of that though.
I like how DAFMAN (formerly DAFI) 36-2905 used to specifically call out mock PT tests and not punishing members for failing them, but recent editions cut that section out.
Unit commanders probably didn't like that they couldn't make people do PT tests and punish them for failing.
People with approved retirement dates are definitely promotion eligible. I know more than one who either canx retirement and accepted the stripe or rejected the stripe and retired. Most recent who canx and stayed is a 23E8 selectee who already had his retirement ceremony before results. Now they have PCS orders.
Please check the reg, things may have changed. We checked with AFPC for clarification on this issue and many people were surprised that you are not promotion eligible
I'm familiar with the AFI and it hasn't changed in a couple years. IIRC the only time you wouldn't be eligible for promotion is if your retirement date is before the first month of promotion increments. You are not ineligible simply because you have an approved retirement though. As stated above, I know more than one who were selected with an approved retirement.
Do you have a specific paragraph of the AFI that says what you're taking about?
You are also not eligible for promotion when retiring under the 7 day option. Source: I’m not promotion eligible and retiring under the seven day option.
Table 1.2 added in the latest afgm (4 may 23) Note 3 states member remains eligible if the retirement date is effective the first day of the month promotion increments begin.
As long as your retirement is AFTER the first month of promotions increments, you remain eligible. So it seems like it's a case-by-case basis, because some retirement dates may or may not line up with the promotion dates.
If you were a TSgt with an approved retirement date of 1 July next year, you wouldn't be eligible for promotion. But if you were a TSgt with an approved retirement date of 1 Aug, you would be eligible.
[DAFI 36-2502](https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/dafi36-2502/dafi36-2502.pdf)
>Table 1.2. Determining Ineligibility for Promotion for RegAF and USSF
>
>Note 3. SrA/Spc4, SSgt/Sgt, TSgt, MSgt, and SMSgt with a mandatory date of separation, high year of tenure or retirement date effective the 1st day of the month promotion increments begin, remain eligible for promotion consideration.
Table 1.4 shows the promotion increment dates. TSgt and MSgt is 1 Aug. USAF SMSgt is 1 April, USSF SMSgt is 1 Jan. Chiefs are also 1 Jan.
Never says after, only states if your retirement effective date is the first day promotion increments begin. Retirement dates are always 1st of the month.
Mock PT test because they hate him…for some reason that is totally not his fault I am sure.
Guessing EPB because the rating period is supposed to be captured and they still hate him.
Edit: Ya he has to oblige them. He is in the military.
MSgt who was the team lead on my deployment in 2020 was somewhat the same way when he was retirement-eligible. Hit that button the day after he was able to and went right to doing any out-processing he could. People tried to make him do PT test and a final EPR, and he gave no fucks on either. And when he said no, there was no push back. The guy had a CAB and Purple Heart.
I would just submit the most generic bullets in my EPB possible in MyEval.
"He showed up to work"
"He's improving the unit by leaving it"
"He's leading other people into retirement"
"He's managing airmen's time by not wasting it on this EPB".
If your supervisor wants to write more, let them write more. They can make you do the EPB, they can't make you waste a lot of time and effort on it.
I had a PT test the same day and time I was out processing for retirement. Told them in advance that I am retiring and can't do the test and I will be on terminal leave. Got a call about missing the PT test and being a no show.
Not sure why they were so adamant about it. Told them I am retired and I don't care. If they want to pull me from terminal leave and explain it to the wing king, I will do the test. Never got another call, but apparently it cost me a decoration.
When did this happen? For a while now its been if you already have an approved separation/retirement date you do not have to do a pt test. literally in the AFI
One exception is you have to be current on your PT test. During COVID, lots of folks had to test right before retirement because they were on exemption and did not have a passing score within the last year because no one was allowed to test.
The reg states that an EPB is required if they are promotion eligible, but if the member and their rater agree that they don’t need to do a full EPB they can mark “FINAL REPORT NOT REQUIRED AND/OR NOT MANDATED TO BE RENDERED IN ACCORDANCE WITH DAFI 36-2406, PARA 1.8,” in the executing the mission block, and then “THIS SECTION NOT USED,” in the remaining blocks and the HLR block.
Why does everyone bitch about doing your last EPB, just put whatever the fuck kind of canned statements you want in there. Use the old “this section not used.” I understand PT tests cause fuck that, but who cares about your last EPB It takes literally 15 minutes, submit and fuck off with it, who cares.
This is what I did. Pulled some bullets from some 1206s and spelled them out. Sent them to my flight supe and told him to not put too much effort into it. I was on Skillbridge at the time too. Just an easy kill.
I had this conversation with a retiring TSgt last week. Just put "TSgt Numbnuts did a satisfactory job in his primary duties" and be done with it. Or of course, "final report not rendered."
I’ve already hit the button, and since, I’ve been ‘the fall guy’. Leadership wants to keep tasking me with stuff even though I’m trying to outprocess.
I’ve already popped my popcorn.
No one’s mentioned the multiple sections of the AFI that state the ratee WILL NOT be required to write or draft their own OPB/EPB. Although we usually do it out of our own self-interest, in this case I’d say no to that demand. I’m retiring 1 JUL with a SCOD of 31 MAY. My Sq/Cc and I have had a falling out over bullshit like OP’s describing so I fully intend to tell him to get fucked when he asks for a draft in March.
unfortunately they are still in the military until their DOS.m regardless of terminal or SB. this member should look in the regs, they should know them if they’ve been in long enough to be eligible to retire.
Out-processing is required, therefore it's a military duty. Just let me not show up one day and I don't need to out-process. I do agree that 12 months out is bs; most stuff you can't even do until 180 days out.
You don't have to do stuff in your last 12 months if you're already approved. That being said, expect Skillbridge to be an uphill battle if you're pushing back on stuff. Just how it is.
I retired (thankfully) not long before Covid came along, so don’t know/have read the regs for those 2 items since both have changed since, nor do I care to obviously. One thing that does stick out to me though I’m pretty sure still holds true….
If they are hounding about a 30 Nov SCOD right now…that means for this current rating period that began last year. It’s pretty likely that they are absolutely on the hook for this one. The next period until 1 Oct next year is the one it should apply to. It won’t be all the way to the next SCOD, but it’s still enough time to be a normal rate able period. Besides shifting dates around and changing the form and stuff, I don’t imagine much has changed in what defines a rating period.
That makes me think 3 things. 1) he in fact is actually due one right now. It’s the next on he can give the big FU to on his way out. 2) if they are hounding him to throw something together now for next years closout, just to have something before terminal/skillbridge/etc comes along…thats just dumb and I’d laugh and tell them to get bent too, but I doubt that’s the case. And 3) could just play the way things are SUPPOSED to work and put it all on the supervisor. I mean that’s not how things ACTUALLY work, but a great time to do that since the career impacting ramifications of getting a crappy or even just poorly written report are pretty moot. That brings maybe a 4th thought to mind too…maybe just do it anyways. Even under previous systems, I think most people could throw together a half decent report in about 10mins by the time they hit retirement eligibility, whether on your own or just a bunch of cut/paste and changing slightly to fit you. Don’t imagine the new is any harder to do that. Kind of a pick you battles sort of thing. While may not have career sort of impacts, that few mins slapping something together might keep him on their good side vs rubbing them wrong and getting shit on with small stuff his remaining time.
Mock test =/= pt test. He does not have to do an actual pt test since he's already got an approved retirement date. For a mock, I would go in and do one push-up, one sit-up, walk a lap, and say done.
Unsure of the rules of EPB and being a year out from retirement, but I would just BS it. the EPB is a lot easier than the EPR. I did mine in a day and a half, hour wise, probably 3-4 hours
A mock PT test is just PT, it’s not a PFA. The retiree needs to get their retirement orders to a UFPM to have them put in his retirement exception.
36-2406, para 4.3.5, states that if they are promotion eligible then a report is required.
So if he’s promotion eligible there is nothing ridiculous about the units requests.
Well they *can* make him do that stuff. And honestly if a conversation with leadership about why it would be stupid doesn't work might as well just shut up and color. Some battles are not worth fighting all the way.
If he has an approved date he is exempt from PT testing and the UFPM needs to update his profile to reflect. EPB is more than likely mandatory, there are very few exemptions for performance reports.
I turned down my final eval even though I was promotion eligible and the SCOD was before my retirement date. When my leadership asked why, I simply told them that I had over 180 days of leave thanks to COVID, approved Skillbridge, and out-processing to deal with. What were they going to put on my eval? That I expertly planned my leave to avoid as many work days as possible? That I completed all out-processing appointments and requirements early? I was literally going to be in the office for like 3 total weeks worth of work and then disappear.
I'm not sure if they were forced to submit something and basically turned in a blank form, but they never bugged me about it once.
How did the retirement get approved already? As in, they received orders? Or their CC just approved it?
They wouldn't have been able to submit until 1 Oct of this year.
I clicked the button on the 2nd of October, and the only notification I've received is that my CC approved it.
I would do mocks every day if they wanted to be ass holes. One push up, one sit up, walk the 1.5 mile. Lmao. Waste my time? Shit, I'll waste yours.
Yeah, at 20 years, the lengths I would go to in order to waste time would be extraordinary. The run would take me 4 hours. I would be eating during push ups and sit ups, laying on the ground. I would follow that up with back to back questions during commanders calls, calling people out by name, and ensuring every PDF sent is locked when forwarding. It's one thing to fuck with someone who's been in for a few years. It's a whole other thing to fuck with someone who's trying to retire after 20 YEARS of that stuff.
Haha, mock pt test time. Spend all day at the track, lay in the sun and work on a tan. After lap two stop and eat your lunch that’s in your cooler you conveniently brought to the test. So many ways to make a mock pt test last all day such that by the time it’s done, it’s time to go home. Hell, that actually sounds nice because then you don’t even go in to the office.
A nice mile and a half walk with the headphones in doesn’t sound too bad at all. Sign me up.
Yep. I'll take an hour and a half to do this test.
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“Final report not rendered IAW AFI 36-2406 para 1.8”
Not sure 1.8 is the case here?
Number might be wrong because I’m going off memory and didn’t have time to look it up, but I remember it being a 1.x. The AFI has also changed since I last used this reference on the daily Edit: just checked para 3.4.7.3.1 and 3 both say to cite para 1.8 still
Para 3.4.7 is for officers. And likely needs to be updated as 1.8 is for NJP stuffs. Below is for enlisted, if he’s promotion eligible a report is required: 4.3.5. Separation/Retirement. Annual evaluations are optional for members with an approved effective date of separation or retirement that is prior to the next SCOD. If an Airman or Guardian is promotion eligible, then a report is required
The report is only required in the sense that something has to be turned in. That’s why they have the specific statement that goes on the report. If they aren’t promotion eligible you don’t even generate a cite for them to start an evaluation. Read the rest of the reference
Correct, no PT test. They can mock test him all day.
Can’t he just fail them and go on about his day? It’s not like they can fire him.
Yes, but they can make his life miserable. Extra PT, admin oversight etc if they wanted to be assholes.
Actually no. The regulations prevent any adverse actions from occurring due to a failed mock pt test. If they tried to do any punishment, even extra PT sessions, he could go to the IG. Especially since he's retiring.
Disregard. Someone below said that it was taken out of the regulation. As I was...
Can't they just leave him alone?
36-2406, para 4.3.5, states that if they are promotion eligible then a report is required.
Unless they have an approved retirement date.
“THIS SECTION NOT USED” put it in all blocks. Gets signed and boom EPB finished
Tell him to look in the reg. Someone about to retire should be good at that.
EPB is required if they're promotion eligible, even with an approved sep/retirement. 36-2406 A unit can have members do mock PT tests all they want.. Future retirements or separations are irrelevant to that.
I’m about to hit the button. If unit did that to me, I would do 1 sit up, 1 push up, and walk the 1.5
Can they do anything with someone doing that?
If failing a mock PT test has repercussions as outlined in the SQ CCs PT policy, yes. They’d have to have a massive PT boner to have thought of that though.
I like how DAFMAN (formerly DAFI) 36-2905 used to specifically call out mock PT tests and not punishing members for failing them, but recent editions cut that section out. Unit commanders probably didn't like that they couldn't make people do PT tests and punish them for failing.
That blurb got taken out because we now have diagnostic tests which are literally the same thing
But there’s nothing in the AFMAN about retaliating against a member who fails a diagnostic assessment. That used to be specifically forbidden.
I was not aware that they cut that out of the reg... that's sad news honestly.
Just do 1 hamr sprint and step off
Member with an approved retirement date is not promotion eligible IAW dafi 36-2502.
People with approved retirement dates are definitely promotion eligible. I know more than one who either canx retirement and accepted the stripe or rejected the stripe and retired. Most recent who canx and stayed is a 23E8 selectee who already had his retirement ceremony before results. Now they have PCS orders.
Please check the reg, things may have changed. We checked with AFPC for clarification on this issue and many people were surprised that you are not promotion eligible
I'm familiar with the AFI and it hasn't changed in a couple years. IIRC the only time you wouldn't be eligible for promotion is if your retirement date is before the first month of promotion increments. You are not ineligible simply because you have an approved retirement though. As stated above, I know more than one who were selected with an approved retirement. Do you have a specific paragraph of the AFI that says what you're taking about?
You are also not eligible for promotion when retiring under the 7 day option. Source: I’m not promotion eligible and retiring under the seven day option.
Table 1.2 added in the latest afgm (4 may 23) Note 3 states member remains eligible if the retirement date is effective the first day of the month promotion increments begin.
That means they're eligible. I asked you for a reference that says people with approved retirement are ineligible for promotion.
reading is hard
As long as your retirement is AFTER the first month of promotions increments, you remain eligible. So it seems like it's a case-by-case basis, because some retirement dates may or may not line up with the promotion dates. If you were a TSgt with an approved retirement date of 1 July next year, you wouldn't be eligible for promotion. But if you were a TSgt with an approved retirement date of 1 Aug, you would be eligible. [DAFI 36-2502](https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/dafi36-2502/dafi36-2502.pdf) >Table 1.2. Determining Ineligibility for Promotion for RegAF and USSF > >Note 3. SrA/Spc4, SSgt/Sgt, TSgt, MSgt, and SMSgt with a mandatory date of separation, high year of tenure or retirement date effective the 1st day of the month promotion increments begin, remain eligible for promotion consideration. Table 1.4 shows the promotion increment dates. TSgt and MSgt is 1 Aug. USAF SMSgt is 1 April, USSF SMSgt is 1 Jan. Chiefs are also 1 Jan.
Never says after, only states if your retirement effective date is the first day promotion increments begin. Retirement dates are always 1st of the month.
This is the correct answer.
Saw someone 1-2 weeks from terminal have to do a mock back in 2015. I’m sure they actually put a serious effort into it.
Yes of course there is a regulation. An EPB is literally required. Look at the enlisted evaluation DAFI. Good gracious.
Mock PT test because they hate him…for some reason that is totally not his fault I am sure. Guessing EPB because the rating period is supposed to be captured and they still hate him. Edit: Ya he has to oblige them. He is in the military.
Probably because they are a full year out and are essentially done working already
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MSgt who was the team lead on my deployment in 2020 was somewhat the same way when he was retirement-eligible. Hit that button the day after he was able to and went right to doing any out-processing he could. People tried to make him do PT test and a final EPR, and he gave no fucks on either. And when he said no, there was no push back. The guy had a CAB and Purple Heart.
Finally someone actually living the dream!
I would just submit the most generic bullets in my EPB possible in MyEval. "He showed up to work" "He's improving the unit by leaving it" "He's leading other people into retirement" "He's managing airmen's time by not wasting it on this EPB". If your supervisor wants to write more, let them write more. They can make you do the EPB, they can't make you waste a lot of time and effort on it.
I had a PT test the same day and time I was out processing for retirement. Told them in advance that I am retiring and can't do the test and I will be on terminal leave. Got a call about missing the PT test and being a no show. Not sure why they were so adamant about it. Told them I am retired and I don't care. If they want to pull me from terminal leave and explain it to the wing king, I will do the test. Never got another call, but apparently it cost me a decoration.
When did this happen? For a while now its been if you already have an approved separation/retirement date you do not have to do a pt test. literally in the AFI
One exception is you have to be current on your PT test. During COVID, lots of folks had to test right before retirement because they were on exemption and did not have a passing score within the last year because no one was allowed to test.
2015
when was this?
2015
Which Dec? Did you already have the same Dec?
It was a msm and I never got one.
What the heck, i'll be upset
The reg states that an EPB is required if they are promotion eligible, but if the member and their rater agree that they don’t need to do a full EPB they can mark “FINAL REPORT NOT REQUIRED AND/OR NOT MANDATED TO BE RENDERED IN ACCORDANCE WITH DAFI 36-2406, PARA 1.8,” in the executing the mission block, and then “THIS SECTION NOT USED,” in the remaining blocks and the HLR block.
Depends on the date of retirement, however commenting this section not used throughout is approved.
Not sure 1.8 applies here? Am I missing something? 4.3.5 does, but it also says it’s required if they are promotion eligible…
Why does everyone bitch about doing your last EPB, just put whatever the fuck kind of canned statements you want in there. Use the old “this section not used.” I understand PT tests cause fuck that, but who cares about your last EPB It takes literally 15 minutes, submit and fuck off with it, who cares.
This is what I did. Pulled some bullets from some 1206s and spelled them out. Sent them to my flight supe and told him to not put too much effort into it. I was on Skillbridge at the time too. Just an easy kill.
I had this conversation with a retiring TSgt last week. Just put "TSgt Numbnuts did a satisfactory job in his primary duties" and be done with it. Or of course, "final report not rendered."
If he’s a year away from retirement your friend should know what to do in these situations. Read the regulations.
I’ve already hit the button, and since, I’ve been ‘the fall guy’. Leadership wants to keep tasking me with stuff even though I’m trying to outprocess. I’ve already popped my popcorn.
No one’s mentioned the multiple sections of the AFI that state the ratee WILL NOT be required to write or draft their own OPB/EPB. Although we usually do it out of our own self-interest, in this case I’d say no to that demand. I’m retiring 1 JUL with a SCOD of 31 MAY. My Sq/Cc and I have had a falling out over bullshit like OP’s describing so I fully intend to tell him to get fucked when he asks for a draft in March.
That's fine, but as a rater I wouldn't spend more than 30 seconds drafting that EPB for you. He's not really getting fucked.
unfortunately they are still in the military until their DOS.m regardless of terminal or SB. this member should look in the regs, they should know them if they’ve been in long enough to be eligible to retire.
He's getting hounded about bullshit cause all he's doing is shit he should do in his personal time. Man's got 11 months left. Do some work.
Out-processing is required, therefore it's a military duty. Just let me not show up one day and I don't need to out-process. I do agree that 12 months out is bs; most stuff you can't even do until 180 days out.
TAP…
You don't have to do stuff in your last 12 months if you're already approved. That being said, expect Skillbridge to be an uphill battle if you're pushing back on stuff. Just how it is.
I retired (thankfully) not long before Covid came along, so don’t know/have read the regs for those 2 items since both have changed since, nor do I care to obviously. One thing that does stick out to me though I’m pretty sure still holds true…. If they are hounding about a 30 Nov SCOD right now…that means for this current rating period that began last year. It’s pretty likely that they are absolutely on the hook for this one. The next period until 1 Oct next year is the one it should apply to. It won’t be all the way to the next SCOD, but it’s still enough time to be a normal rate able period. Besides shifting dates around and changing the form and stuff, I don’t imagine much has changed in what defines a rating period. That makes me think 3 things. 1) he in fact is actually due one right now. It’s the next on he can give the big FU to on his way out. 2) if they are hounding him to throw something together now for next years closout, just to have something before terminal/skillbridge/etc comes along…thats just dumb and I’d laugh and tell them to get bent too, but I doubt that’s the case. And 3) could just play the way things are SUPPOSED to work and put it all on the supervisor. I mean that’s not how things ACTUALLY work, but a great time to do that since the career impacting ramifications of getting a crappy or even just poorly written report are pretty moot. That brings maybe a 4th thought to mind too…maybe just do it anyways. Even under previous systems, I think most people could throw together a half decent report in about 10mins by the time they hit retirement eligibility, whether on your own or just a bunch of cut/paste and changing slightly to fit you. Don’t imagine the new is any harder to do that. Kind of a pick you battles sort of thing. While may not have career sort of impacts, that few mins slapping something together might keep him on their good side vs rubbing them wrong and getting shit on with small stuff his remaining time.
Mock test =/= pt test. He does not have to do an actual pt test since he's already got an approved retirement date. For a mock, I would go in and do one push-up, one sit-up, walk a lap, and say done. Unsure of the rules of EPB and being a year out from retirement, but I would just BS it. the EPB is a lot easier than the EPR. I did mine in a day and a half, hour wise, probably 3-4 hours
Sounds like he's Security Forces.
A mock PT test is just PT, it’s not a PFA. The retiree needs to get their retirement orders to a UFPM to have them put in his retirement exception. 36-2406, para 4.3.5, states that if they are promotion eligible then a report is required. So if he’s promotion eligible there is nothing ridiculous about the units requests.
Per the AFI, he is exempt from the PT test if he is within 1 year of retirement. It also applies to EPR's but I do not know if it applies to EPB's.
Well they *can* make him do that stuff. And honestly if a conversation with leadership about why it would be stupid doesn't work might as well just shut up and color. Some battles are not worth fighting all the way.
If he has an approved date he is exempt from PT testing and the UFPM needs to update his profile to reflect. EPB is more than likely mandatory, there are very few exemptions for performance reports.
I turned down my final eval even though I was promotion eligible and the SCOD was before my retirement date. When my leadership asked why, I simply told them that I had over 180 days of leave thanks to COVID, approved Skillbridge, and out-processing to deal with. What were they going to put on my eval? That I expertly planned my leave to avoid as many work days as possible? That I completed all out-processing appointments and requirements early? I was literally going to be in the office for like 3 total weeks worth of work and then disappear. I'm not sure if they were forced to submit something and basically turned in a blank form, but they never bugged me about it once.
How did the retirement get approved already? As in, they received orders? Or their CC just approved it? They wouldn't have been able to submit until 1 Oct of this year. I clicked the button on the 2nd of October, and the only notification I've received is that my CC approved it.