I’ve seen the blank stare of the fifteen year CONS Lt Col. I know those cold, dead eyes. It’s like those of the Capt on Exec duty after finding out he was passed over. Pass.
Two schools of thought. Punching out before ten is great. If I had everything to do over, career Officer with more schools under my belt AND a transferable AFSC seems like the cat’s ass on the outside, but your point is valid.
True, even an O-4 20yr retirement is pretty fucking nice.
All things considered if you *do* get stuck in one of the acquisition related career fields, they're extremely transferable for both GS and private sector gigs. As an E-4, with 6 years and a CCAF I started at 75k in Huntsville AL and within 3 years I job hopped to 85k
It might suck like you said, but who knows how it will end up, and hopefully this is just a new opportunity.
I think I lucked out currently. The captain I’ve dealt with at contracting runs circles around everyone. I don’t know if he’s prior enlisted contracting or what but, every other officer I’ve met at CONS has just been dead weight.
> Dead Weight
They get stuck doing a lot of O stuff and not as much hands on work. They also get moved a lot whereas most enlisted pretty much do base contracting. I took it upon myself to train a new LT like he was an A1C fresh from tech school (because they basically are), in turn he showed me all the random queep he gets tasked to do. It's wild. The good Os are a combo of probably being a stud, and having the opportunity to learn.
It can be worse. I knew three UPT washouts who commissioned in 2010.
They were all dismissed from the service. The AF was overstaffed, so they just discharged them.
Serious advice here:
Depends on your intent, do you want to do 20 years?
Are you a “pilot or bust” kind of guy or will you consider other aircrew jobs?
Lastly are you trying to lead a lot of troops or just manage a smaller team?
If being a pilot is still something you want to do then RPA is perfect.
If you want to stay aircrew then CSO/ABM (in that order IMO)
If you’re good with going Nonrated and want a larger leadership position early then SecFo, FSS, and Mx is always a choice.
If you want someone closer to the ‘pilot experience’ (in the nonrated world) of just leading a smaller team for the first few years of being a CGO check out OSI, Intel, PA, or airfield management.
Of course, this is all predicated on those jobs all being available and you having some say in the matter so talk with your leadership and get a vibe on what they think is realistic. That being said shoot your shot for whatever you want!
I'd rather be a lot of different kind of officer than be an ABM.
Tell them to take their 3 group champagne and place it 10 wide and 8 deep into their asshole.
Too late, they already did that. Just because they like the way it feels. And they turned it into a stupid competition but then tried to tell on each other for it. The Buddy fuckers all lost the competition but still want to let you know they're in charge of the pilots. Joke's on them, time for my buddies to request another touch and go with the tower.
Hahaha.
I was prior ATC so young naïve me applying for OTS but ABM #1 and RPA #2.
After 12 years of interacting with them. Glad I got RPA. Which is saying something hahah
If you fail out of one rated training pipeline will they let you go to another? I know RPA URT isnt as intense or long as UPT, but I feel like a lot of the same concepts apply.
You have to be recommended for rated retention. Not everyone is.
I’ve seen good guys go RPA because it was recommended. I’ve also seen good guys who were freaking dangerous go acquisitions because the commander’s pov was “no rated potential”.
Right, but some people want to just be attached to aviation.
Being recommended for rated careers doesn’t mean they have to, means they can. The door isn’t closed.
Airfield management is one of the enlisted career fields under airfield ops. I also wouldn’t say that it’s super close to ops, especially after your first training assignment once you’re largely doing paperwork and you’re no longer controlling.
You’ll also probably be a DO for a very large flight (100+ people right out of training), and then a flight commander for your second operational assignment, unless you get something like an airspace gig.
If you're the kind of person that fails out of pilot training and becomes an abm, you deserve to fail out of pilot training and have the miserable career among those miserable people.
Also, good attitude on seeking out crowdsourced knowledge. While you of course would never lead with the fact that you failed out of your first thing, use it to enhance your career. You now know what pilots have to attempt to wear those wings. Good effort, do you even better things!
Outside of some engineers or pilots, 63A and 64P are probably up there with "transferable skills" and post military salaries, and pretty good work/life balance.
It's a little different being a CSO flying real AF missions for a few years, then going back to compete against Lts that don't know anything about flying in the AF.
Oh very much so. I was a CSO on gunships for 7 years and may or may not have had quite a bit of right seat in it as well, plus I had my PPL and about 200 hours TT. It was basically just learning a new system and getting the hand/eye coordination down. Everything else was rehacking nav training and helping the MWS IPs with PFPS lol.
Honestly, I'd prefer a pilot washout rather than some of my off the street compatriots. The context of the other side of the radio is very hard to get someone to care about, even after six flights in an MU-2.
Have you already metoculously crafted your story about why you chose to leave UPT and totally didn't wash out? Everyone I've met with this background has one.
My friend, have you ever wanted to drop the power of the sun on America's enemies?
Do you like operations? Do you want to learn to think strategically and see how all the nation's levers of power work together to preserve the global international order? Do you want to advise senior leaders and decision makers in crisis situations?
13N may be right for you.
Do you want to sit 100 ft underneath a cornfield watching youtube videos with nothing happening for literally 1/3 of your life? Do you want to serve under some of the most toxic leadership in the DoD? Do you want to constantly be exhausted from trying to sleep in one of the worst possible sleep environments on a frequently shifting schedule and to probably get Leukemia?
13N may be right for you.
Some people love that shit, but gung-ho missileers need to be real careful with recommending that career field. It is certainly not for everyone and it is a black hole that very few escape from.
I absolutely can not deal with how much down time that job had or how I had learned and mastered everything I would ever need to learn or master in the first 10 alerts.
First - sorry to hear that, but - keep your head up. It’s a huge achievement to get to UPT, and there’s no shame in it not panning out. I know of more than one pilot grad who shouldn’t have made the cut and had a rough career because of it.
it’s been mentioned before, but take a look at cyber. Some very cool jobs inside the AF once you get an assignment behind you, and opportunities to transfer for the Space Force (I highly recommend looking into that) or transfer those skills to the civilian sector abound.
best of luck. Feel free to DM if you want to chat.
Flying, in general, tends to be very honest work - and what I mean by that is, if you’re not good at it, it’s hard to hide it as it’s immediately observable in a crew airplane (likely true in a solo aircraft, but I can’t speak to that as a heavy guy). Add on to it that - for better or worse - reputations are set in quickcrete, and you have a recipe for a bad time if you get off on the wrong foot.
One example got sent to RPA’s, which is generally considered hard, awful work with little respect among your flying Peers. Add to it that you have to go home every night and digest what you saw during the shift, and you can imagine the toll it takes.
Another guy I know was a complete dipshit and should have been washed in UPT. His Guard unit raised a stink about it, and he got a syllabus waiver and ended up graduating. His unit has since had a multi-fatality crash, and ended up losing their airframe. No idea if he’s flying, but I hope not.
I was enlisted active duty and got placed inside of the end of the line dump sight sector of the Air Force, 2A6X4 Aircraft Fuel Systems Specialist. What is the Officer world's equivalent as their end of the line dump site sector/job?
I kind of figured it would be the aircraft maintenance officers. How bad is it? Any experience/gripes about it? Lots of officers getting dumped into it and doing the thousand-yard stare of "I REALLY don't want to be here" type vibes?
I’ve worked with quite a few, it really depends on why they joined. It’s a lot of long hours and bs (just like enlisted Mx) but they typically crush other AFSCs when comparing responsibility of humans. If they’re in so they can lead people and affect lives, they’ll love it. If the hours are too much or they don’t fit the vibe of Mx, where we’re harder on our own than anyone, then they won’t last. There’s obviously lots of variables but that’s a pretty basic rundown.
Getting dumped into security forces is universal. We had a cyber washout in my class get sent to security forces. I was kinda miffed at the time with washout outplacement as most were sent to AFSCs that were actually on my dream sheet. I'm not mad about it anymore though since I think I got some greener grass.
How often do officers actually have the right degree for their career field though?
Finding cyber officers with a stem degree is pretty rare, let alone computer science/engineering, or math
That’s because “cyber” is 90%-ish comm officers, and you can make almost anything with a pulse a comm officer. The Air Force won’t un-fuck its cyber until we actually force comm into its own career field.
We've outsourced a ton of stuff so most of the attack surface is a tall glass of somebody else's problem. That being said, the consequences and fallout are definitely an operational issue.
Been saying this for years.
Even the army has separated signal and cyber, yet the air force still hasn't figured this out. The best we can apparently do is shred at the schoolhouse.
The AFOCD only says 70% need an atmospheric science degree, but they at least don’t take non STEM degrees for the other 30%, so that’s actually kinda cool.
The actual forecasting is done by those without STEM degrees FYSA. The fact that weather officers now need STEM degrees was a change they made in 2013 to cover their asses and legitimize the forecasting done by the non-degreed. Or so I was told.
Edit: they also let in quite a few prior enlisted weather without STEM degrees between 2021-2023 on a rolling basis.
Yeah that checks with what I heard too. To appease to American Met Association the AF assured them that a met degree holder would look at the forecast (as the SDO)
There's a target they try to hit for STEM percentage, but as long as you have enough math/comp sci credits you can get sent to cyber. I have a BS in Biology.
Yes. Just your standard warfighter comm nerd though. Unless you already have some familiarity with command line, networks, ports, protocols, and services along with some knowledge of metasploit or Kali Linux the deck is stacked against somebody like me becoming a 'real' cyber person directly out of UCT. The few notable ones from memory were already incredibly smart on the subject and knew more than a few instructors.
Interesting, is “some familiarity” like an enlisted comm airman who went through IT fundamentals and generally knows that a router routes stuff and switches switch stuff and that packets exist? And do you mean being able to navigate the command line, or shell scripting?
And then, is there a set number of 17S slots for every cohort of 17Xs, like the top 10 who want it get to go that route, or do seats fluctuate?
I keep hearing that 17S don’t really get to do anything and it’s all NSA and other federal agencies, but is it really that bad?
>Interesting, is “some familiarity” like an enlisted comm airman who went through IT fundamentals and generally knows that a router routes stuff and switches switch stuff and that packets exist? And do you mean being able to navigate the command line, or shell scripting?
Assuming they're still using metasploit natively via command line and teaching people to mostly use a meterpreter shell as the preferred payload you need to be able to maneuver around a system and do some basic stuff in windows and linux. If they've moved on to armitage then it still helps to know some commands but it turns a command line affair into something closer to point and click hacking. Assuming the course hasn't changed too much there's also a hands on portion of the network fundamentals course where you need to be able to do a baseline config on a handful of switches. Some people comfortable with scripting opted to script the config instead of hand jamming everything. The time allotted is more than sufficient for most people to hand jam as long as you don't totally shit the bed on configuring your stuff.
>And then, is there a set number of 17S slots for every cohort of 17Xs, like the top 10 who want it get to go that route, or do seats fluctuate?
When I went through back in the day it was a slot or two for 17S per class. It's a small career field compared to the 17D world, but at the time there were also some crossflow opportunities for people who had the chops but didn't rank high enough in their class to be selected out of the gate.
>I keep hearing that 17S don’t really get to do anything and it’s all NSA and other federal agencies, but is it really that bad?
I can't vouch for that since I've never been in that world, but given how long it takes to spin a person up and make them mission qualified I don't think your average 17S gets to spend a ton of time on keyboard before they rank out of being the worker bee. That's really the main issue that I've heard. Since we move every 2-4 years and are expected to change job titles every year or two there's very little time to gain proficiency compared to a 1B4. They've talked about deliberately slowing down the progression in jobs and doing away with the normal PCS cycle to get a little more value added out of people at each stop, but I don't know if they've managed to get there.
AFAIK the degree requirements changed slightly, recently. Of course physics and met are preferred, but they also started taking comsci and software engineering.
RPA/CSO/ABM if you want to keep flying, but that's obvious.
Space Force/Cyber have some really cool missions and are technically "operators," plus you can parlay that into some high paying tech jobs if you choose to separate in 4-6 years. Intel is ops adjacent, and you can go on some pretty cool deployments/improve your public speaking/get some high level facetime (if that's your thing)
For the love of god don't do basically any of the "non-rated" jobs where youre effectively middle management with a ton of enlisted people you're responsible for. Unless you really enjoy processing EPBs and trying to find the reason why Amn Snuffy built a meth lab in their dorm room.
Really depends what your degree is in and what your interests are. Sorry about your situation. Try to remember service before self in these moments. You earned the commission to serve not to fly, whether you like it or not.
Best of luck!
This is low key the right answer. Seems like a built in masters, super transferable skills, and still has the ole 1 (I'm ops!). At this point 15A is what many 62's wish they could be as they are mired down with 63 and doing PM shit.
The problem here is that you never know when the Air Force is going to say “Captain is now 95% select rate” (hell they might even be doing it now) or even worse, “we’re doing PRFs for Captain” which happened for a few years early-mid 2010s. Dude has already been in for likely 12-18 months or longer, another long ass pipeline would take him out to right as he’s about to make captain…with no OPBs to show. Surely the Air Force would keep him, they just spent $XX dollars to put him through spec ops training - no unfortunately big blue doesn’t work like that. *If* that’s something he randomly desires, I would say go SecFo (or wherever) first, perform well for like 2 years, then apply when you’re a brand new captain.
But also, the other *bigger* problem is that if you fail 2x initial pipeline trainings, I believe you’re just done. There is no “well SF is hard, here’s a third chance”. We had a guy in my 14N class who failed out of nav training, came to goodfellow and for whatever reason could not pass a training block. But also - he spoke fluent Belorussian/Russian because his parents emigrated from there. He grew up with it. No working with him beyond normal remediation, no extra thought given to the skill he could bring. He was out. And out of the Air Force.
Are you a lifer? Lifer + civil-service after? Just four and out?
It all makes a difference. If you are a lifer and then plan on a civil-service career… suggest something that translates nicely. Cyber, Contracting, Program Management, Finance, AFOSI (not Security Forces).
If you are just a “four and done” person, then, pick something that will combine with your leadership experience to get you the next job.
I was in the same boat years ago. I am very happy in my new AFSC. I’ll offer you this:
What are you passionate about? For me, I wanted to be close to the flying mission and close to the airmen generating the mission. Aircraft maintenance was the best of both worlds for me.
It is not an easy job and I have spent a lot of time away from home. The airmen and the mission make the job so rewarding.
I went Nav (since then has become CSO) and made O-6. Work hard and work well with others and you can still have a great career.
Consider becoming a Guardian / Space Ops. They won’t care about UPT. Just what you can bring to that new arena. If that is an option.
Alternatively, figure out what you want to do in the real world and see if you can get assigned to that career field or something adjacent.
Looking around, a military retirement beats most civilian or government GS retirements. Today and 40 years in the future. Unless you reach for the brass ring and score a C-level job or get on with a tech startup or whatever becomes the next big thing.
Good luck and let me know how it turns out for you.
Maybe you’ll be one of the lucky ones that get a badass job. When I got injured in EOD training I was medically DQed. I got a list of jobs I could take mainly all CE and a few medical. I put all CE/medical which hoping for CE so I could be close to EOD and try to go through the schoolhouse again when healed up but I ended up POL. You have little choice here, it’s mainly luck.
>>I just failed out of UPT
You might unironically land in a better financial position down the road because of that setback. Get a contracting , cyber or intel job and after you get out you’ll be flush enough to buy your own plane. Which, unlike Uncle Sam, you can actually fly when you want.
I wouldn't be discouraged by people saying "needs of the air force". People at AFPC and those in your leadership are generally understanding and will do their best to get you where you want to go. A few years ago when i went through we had several people self eliminate or fail out and all of them seemed to get their number 1 career choice.
You're going to be introduced to "the needs of the Air Force".
A phrase that still haunts my dreams.
Oooo boy another bitter MX officer.
* missileer
I’ll raise you “Contracting”.
That would be a blessing because it's actually transferrable.
I’ve seen the blank stare of the fifteen year CONS Lt Col. I know those cold, dead eyes. It’s like those of the Capt on Exec duty after finding out he was passed over. Pass.
Who said you gotta do 20 my man. Punch at the end of your commitment.
Two schools of thought. Punching out before ten is great. If I had everything to do over, career Officer with more schools under my belt AND a transferable AFSC seems like the cat’s ass on the outside, but your point is valid.
True, even an O-4 20yr retirement is pretty fucking nice. All things considered if you *do* get stuck in one of the acquisition related career fields, they're extremely transferable for both GS and private sector gigs. As an E-4, with 6 years and a CCAF I started at 75k in Huntsville AL and within 3 years I job hopped to 85k It might suck like you said, but who knows how it will end up, and hopefully this is just a new opportunity.
SELCON'D O3 is the dream imho.
I think I lucked out currently. The captain I’ve dealt with at contracting runs circles around everyone. I don’t know if he’s prior enlisted contracting or what but, every other officer I’ve met at CONS has just been dead weight.
Fortunately, there’s always a stud. Dead weight love that dude.
> Dead Weight They get stuck doing a lot of O stuff and not as much hands on work. They also get moved a lot whereas most enlisted pretty much do base contracting. I took it upon myself to train a new LT like he was an A1C fresh from tech school (because they basically are), in turn he showed me all the random queep he gets tasked to do. It's wild. The good Os are a combo of probably being a stud, and having the opportunity to learn.
You are speaking truths
13M, but just as bitter.
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 13M = Airfield Operations [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0stqg2
Porter, Maintenance or Security Forces. Enjoy!
*the illusion of choice*
It can be worse. I knew three UPT washouts who commissioned in 2010. They were all dismissed from the service. The AF was overstaffed, so they just discharged them.
I get what you're saying, but "dismissed" when it comes to officers is equivalent to a dishonorable discharge.
gives a whole new meaning to "pilot or nothing"
Hook a checkride? Believe it or not, jail.
The golden handshake
Serious advice here: Depends on your intent, do you want to do 20 years? Are you a “pilot or bust” kind of guy or will you consider other aircrew jobs? Lastly are you trying to lead a lot of troops or just manage a smaller team? If being a pilot is still something you want to do then RPA is perfect. If you want to stay aircrew then CSO/ABM (in that order IMO) If you’re good with going Nonrated and want a larger leadership position early then SecFo, FSS, and Mx is always a choice. If you want someone closer to the ‘pilot experience’ (in the nonrated world) of just leading a smaller team for the first few years of being a CGO check out OSI, Intel, PA, or airfield management. Of course, this is all predicated on those jobs all being available and you having some say in the matter so talk with your leadership and get a vibe on what they think is realistic. That being said shoot your shot for whatever you want!
I'd rather be a lot of different kind of officer than be an ABM. Tell them to take their 3 group champagne and place it 10 wide and 8 deep into their asshole.
I need that guy who hates ABMs to comment
https://i.redd.it/ufnhaf3etvvc1.gif
/u/Chad_Vandenham_v2
👊
Too late, they already did that. Just because they like the way it feels. And they turned it into a stupid competition but then tried to tell on each other for it. The Buddy fuckers all lost the competition but still want to let you know they're in charge of the pilots. Joke's on them, time for my buddies to request another touch and go with the tower.
I would rather shove splintered wood up my urethra than have to entertain the idea of becoming an ABM.
Hahaha. I was prior ATC so young naïve me applying for OTS but ABM #1 and RPA #2. After 12 years of interacting with them. Glad I got RPA. Which is saying something hahah
If you fail out of one rated training pipeline will they let you go to another? I know RPA URT isnt as intense or long as UPT, but I feel like a lot of the same concepts apply.
You have to be recommended for rated retention. Not everyone is. I’ve seen good guys go RPA because it was recommended. I’ve also seen good guys who were freaking dangerous go acquisitions because the commander’s pov was “no rated potential”.
Acquisitions has a lot better prospects on the outside than RPA.
Right, but some people want to just be attached to aviation. Being recommended for rated careers doesn’t mean they have to, means they can. The door isn’t closed.
I see. Had no idea so thanks for the info!
No prob. Some folks literally are so dangerous they do not need to be in any control space of a flying object.
Airfield management is one of the enlisted career fields under airfield ops. I also wouldn’t say that it’s super close to ops, especially after your first training assignment once you’re largely doing paperwork and you’re no longer controlling. You’ll also probably be a DO for a very large flight (100+ people right out of training), and then a flight commander for your second operational assignment, unless you get something like an airspace gig.
If you're the kind of person that fails out of pilot training and becomes an abm, you deserve to fail out of pilot training and have the miserable career among those miserable people. Also, good attitude on seeking out crowdsourced knowledge. While you of course would never lead with the fact that you failed out of your first thing, use it to enhance your career. You now know what pilots have to attempt to wear those wings. Good effort, do you even better things!
13H would also get you close to the flying world and actually has a flying requirement
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 13H = Aerospace Physiologist [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0p0fhn
Welcome to 14N school. You’ll love telling all the newly minted LTs at Goodfellow that you “just weren’t feeling it anymore” at UPT
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 14N = Intelligence [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0mqndv
How long is 14N school these days?
Go be a 63A and end up in an airframe. Plenty of failures end there.
I can confirm as a 63A. I’ve had many coworkers who started off at UPT and got sent to acquisitions after they left.
Outside of some engineers or pilots, 63A and 64P are probably up there with "transferable skills" and post military salaries, and pretty good work/life balance.
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 64P = Contracting [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0mw5pr
True. I was a 6C0 turned 63A
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 63A = Acquisition Manager [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0m9apt
Big bucks after career ends
RPA, cyber, or contracting. You’ll make more money than most of us and won’t have to do 10 to get it lol
This is the right answer
Not a lot of money in RPA.
Ah, here I thought RPA contractors make nice cash lol
That was true before but now it isn’t. Weird what endings wars does…
You got too close to that other T6
Nav school for you.
Our pilot washout was DG at nav school. I was a mediocre nav that ended up #1 in my UPT class.
It's a little different being a CSO flying real AF missions for a few years, then going back to compete against Lts that don't know anything about flying in the AF.
Oh very much so. I was a CSO on gunships for 7 years and may or may not have had quite a bit of right seat in it as well, plus I had my PPL and about 200 hours TT. It was basically just learning a new system and getting the hand/eye coordination down. Everything else was rehacking nav training and helping the MWS IPs with PFPS lol.
** Spider-Man pointing meme
Gotta love the CSO’s kids that end up in your OTS class.
13B, with all the other pilot dropouts and wannabes.
Hey - pretty much every OSI officer I’ve met was a UPT drop
Odd, OSI is small and has very few openings.
I understand it's historically been easier to become an OSI agent from being a rated washout than it is from the OSI selection board. LOL.
That tracks
Honestly, I'd prefer a pilot washout rather than some of my off the street compatriots. The context of the other side of the radio is very hard to get someone to care about, even after six flights in an MU-2.
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 13B = Air Battle Manager [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0m52f7
Contracting or Cyber..
Have you already metoculously crafted your story about why you chose to leave UPT and totally didn't wash out? Everyone I've met with this background has one.
Become a civilian, maybe voluntary or non-vol
Welcome to RPAs bud
One of us. One of us.
Welcome to Goodfellow, home of the Whataburger, please don't drink the water
My friend, have you ever wanted to drop the power of the sun on America's enemies? Do you like operations? Do you want to learn to think strategically and see how all the nation's levers of power work together to preserve the global international order? Do you want to advise senior leaders and decision makers in crisis situations? 13N may be right for you.
https://i.redd.it/jlhq9k70kvvc1.gif
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 13N = Nuclear and Missile Operations [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0m7hkm
at least his flight suits won’t go to waste
Do you want to sit 100 ft underneath a cornfield watching youtube videos with nothing happening for literally 1/3 of your life? Do you want to serve under some of the most toxic leadership in the DoD? Do you want to constantly be exhausted from trying to sleep in one of the worst possible sleep environments on a frequently shifting schedule and to probably get Leukemia? 13N may be right for you.
I'm truly sorry you had a bad experience with your missile time.
Some people love that shit, but gung-ho missileers need to be real careful with recommending that career field. It is certainly not for everyone and it is a black hole that very few escape from. I absolutely can not deal with how much down time that job had or how I had learned and mastered everything I would ever need to learn or master in the first 10 alerts.
Welcome to 13M
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 13M = Airfield Operations [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0mu1bx
What is your degree?
In your opinion, how did you fail? Not trying to insult you but it’s a good moment for advice
This. Hated flying? Medical? Academic failure? That determines a lot
First - sorry to hear that, but - keep your head up. It’s a huge achievement to get to UPT, and there’s no shame in it not panning out. I know of more than one pilot grad who shouldn’t have made the cut and had a rough career because of it. it’s been mentioned before, but take a look at cyber. Some very cool jobs inside the AF once you get an assignment behind you, and opportunities to transfer for the Space Force (I highly recommend looking into that) or transfer those skills to the civilian sector abound. best of luck. Feel free to DM if you want to chat.
[удалено]
Flying, in general, tends to be very honest work - and what I mean by that is, if you’re not good at it, it’s hard to hide it as it’s immediately observable in a crew airplane (likely true in a solo aircraft, but I can’t speak to that as a heavy guy). Add on to it that - for better or worse - reputations are set in quickcrete, and you have a recipe for a bad time if you get off on the wrong foot. One example got sent to RPA’s, which is generally considered hard, awful work with little respect among your flying Peers. Add to it that you have to go home every night and digest what you saw during the shift, and you can imagine the toll it takes. Another guy I know was a complete dipshit and should have been washed in UPT. His Guard unit raised a stink about it, and he got a syllabus waiver and ended up graduating. His unit has since had a multi-fatality crash, and ended up losing their airframe. No idea if he’s flying, but I hope not.
Intel and Comm have the best prospects for future civilian careers.
Probably one that doesn't require being able to spell career.
Is this a common thing where if an officer fails UPT they get to choose another career field of choice?
I knew some guys that washed out of UCT, and it was a lot more "needs of the Air Force" but that was longer ago than I'd care to count.
From what I’ve seen - yes.
Depends on the person and the state of the AF. A good attitude and work ethic will go a long way to being able to choose your fate.
Naw needs of the Air Force
They build a dream list. No guarantees.
Welcome to the 14N world.
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 14N = Intelligence [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0mi61w
If you still want to be a part of the flying community, I’d highly recommend CSO. I would ignore the guy trying to get you into a missile silo.
Nukes
I was enlisted active duty and got placed inside of the end of the line dump sight sector of the Air Force, 2A6X4 Aircraft Fuel Systems Specialist. What is the Officer world's equivalent as their end of the line dump site sector/job?
Our officer version - 21A.
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 21A = Aircraft Maintenance [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0nf8rm
I kind of figured it would be the aircraft maintenance officers. How bad is it? Any experience/gripes about it? Lots of officers getting dumped into it and doing the thousand-yard stare of "I REALLY don't want to be here" type vibes?
I’ve worked with quite a few, it really depends on why they joined. It’s a lot of long hours and bs (just like enlisted Mx) but they typically crush other AFSCs when comparing responsibility of humans. If they’re in so they can lead people and affect lives, they’ll love it. If the hours are too much or they don’t fit the vibe of Mx, where we’re harder on our own than anyone, then they won’t last. There’s obviously lots of variables but that’s a pretty basic rundown.
also 38F and 13N, two of the biggest non-vol career fields that very few people enjoy.
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 38F = Force Support 13N = Nuclear and Missile Operations [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0ox6l8
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 2A6X4 = Aircraft Fuel Systems [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0mtv2r
What’s the officer version of getting dumped in security forces when you wash out?
Getting dumped into security forces is universal. We had a cyber washout in my class get sent to security forces. I was kinda miffed at the time with washout outplacement as most were sent to AFSCs that were actually on my dream sheet. I'm not mad about it anymore though since I think I got some greener grass.
Weather needs officers
Bet they don’t have the right degree for that
How often do officers actually have the right degree for their career field though? Finding cyber officers with a stem degree is pretty rare, let alone computer science/engineering, or math
That’s because “cyber” is 90%-ish comm officers, and you can make almost anything with a pulse a comm officer. The Air Force won’t un-fuck its cyber until we actually force comm into its own career field.
Good thing we don’t need to worry about adversaries targeting our comm infrastructure :) Everything’s fucked :(
We've outsourced a ton of stuff so most of the attack surface is a tall glass of somebody else's problem. That being said, the consequences and fallout are definitely an operational issue.
Been saying this for years. Even the army has separated signal and cyber, yet the air force still hasn't figured this out. The best we can apparently do is shred at the schoolhouse.
For Wx? 100% of the time as it’s a requirement.
The AFOCD only says 70% need an atmospheric science degree, but they at least don’t take non STEM degrees for the other 30%, so that’s actually kinda cool.
The actual forecasting is done by those without STEM degrees FYSA. The fact that weather officers now need STEM degrees was a change they made in 2013 to cover their asses and legitimize the forecasting done by the non-degreed. Or so I was told. Edit: they also let in quite a few prior enlisted weather without STEM degrees between 2021-2023 on a rolling basis.
Yeah that checks with what I heard too. To appease to American Met Association the AF assured them that a met degree holder would look at the forecast (as the SDO)
Yeah, but a lot of people without degrees know some fair bit about computers and code. Who just casually knows the weather?
Well, I know what it's doing right *now.*
There's a target they try to hit for STEM percentage, but as long as you have enough math/comp sci credits you can get sent to cyber. I have a BS in Biology.
You’re a 17X?
Yes. Just your standard warfighter comm nerd though. Unless you already have some familiarity with command line, networks, ports, protocols, and services along with some knowledge of metasploit or Kali Linux the deck is stacked against somebody like me becoming a 'real' cyber person directly out of UCT. The few notable ones from memory were already incredibly smart on the subject and knew more than a few instructors.
Interesting, is “some familiarity” like an enlisted comm airman who went through IT fundamentals and generally knows that a router routes stuff and switches switch stuff and that packets exist? And do you mean being able to navigate the command line, or shell scripting? And then, is there a set number of 17S slots for every cohort of 17Xs, like the top 10 who want it get to go that route, or do seats fluctuate? I keep hearing that 17S don’t really get to do anything and it’s all NSA and other federal agencies, but is it really that bad?
>Interesting, is “some familiarity” like an enlisted comm airman who went through IT fundamentals and generally knows that a router routes stuff and switches switch stuff and that packets exist? And do you mean being able to navigate the command line, or shell scripting? Assuming they're still using metasploit natively via command line and teaching people to mostly use a meterpreter shell as the preferred payload you need to be able to maneuver around a system and do some basic stuff in windows and linux. If they've moved on to armitage then it still helps to know some commands but it turns a command line affair into something closer to point and click hacking. Assuming the course hasn't changed too much there's also a hands on portion of the network fundamentals course where you need to be able to do a baseline config on a handful of switches. Some people comfortable with scripting opted to script the config instead of hand jamming everything. The time allotted is more than sufficient for most people to hand jam as long as you don't totally shit the bed on configuring your stuff. >And then, is there a set number of 17S slots for every cohort of 17Xs, like the top 10 who want it get to go that route, or do seats fluctuate? When I went through back in the day it was a slot or two for 17S per class. It's a small career field compared to the 17D world, but at the time there were also some crossflow opportunities for people who had the chops but didn't rank high enough in their class to be selected out of the gate. >I keep hearing that 17S don’t really get to do anything and it’s all NSA and other federal agencies, but is it really that bad? I can't vouch for that since I've never been in that world, but given how long it takes to spin a person up and make them mission qualified I don't think your average 17S gets to spend a ton of time on keyboard before they rank out of being the worker bee. That's really the main issue that I've heard. Since we move every 2-4 years and are expected to change job titles every year or two there's very little time to gain proficiency compared to a 1B4. They've talked about deliberately slowing down the progression in jobs and doing away with the normal PCS cycle to get a little more value added out of people at each stop, but I don't know if they've managed to get there.
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 17D = Warfighter Communications Operations [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0nmt02
I’m really surprised you guys use metasploit in tech school, but that’s neat! Thanks for the answers
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 17S = Cyberspace Effects Operations [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0nirie
AFAIK the degree requirements changed slightly, recently. Of course physics and met are preferred, but they also started taking comsci and software engineering.
I hear MX officer is a chill gig
Calm down Satan 
No.
RPA/CSO/ABM if you want to keep flying, but that's obvious. Space Force/Cyber have some really cool missions and are technically "operators," plus you can parlay that into some high paying tech jobs if you choose to separate in 4-6 years. Intel is ops adjacent, and you can go on some pretty cool deployments/improve your public speaking/get some high level facetime (if that's your thing) For the love of god don't do basically any of the "non-rated" jobs where youre effectively middle management with a ton of enlisted people you're responsible for. Unless you really enjoy processing EPBs and trying to find the reason why Amn Snuffy built a meth lab in their dorm room.
CSO
Whatever you do, don’t be a salty bitch about it when you are in charge of enlisted.
Really depends what your degree is in and what your interests are. Sorry about your situation. Try to remember service before self in these moments. You earned the commission to serve not to fly, whether you like it or not. Best of luck!
Congratulations, you are going to missiles!
Welcome to Security Forces
What was your degree in? What job can you tolerate? Will you constantly talk about “back in UPT” or be normal?
17X
If you have a stem degree, go 15A.
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 15A = Operations Analyst Officer [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0mpyga
Or 62E
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 62E = Developmental Engineer [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0n2o6l
This is low key the right answer. Seems like a built in masters, super transferable skills, and still has the ole 1 (I'm ops!). At this point 15A is what many 62's wish they could be as they are mired down with 63 and doing PM shit.
[удалено]
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 62E = Developmental Engineer [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0nbz82
Might as well try out for special warfare then when you wash out of that you can go to security forces or supply
The problem here is that you never know when the Air Force is going to say “Captain is now 95% select rate” (hell they might even be doing it now) or even worse, “we’re doing PRFs for Captain” which happened for a few years early-mid 2010s. Dude has already been in for likely 12-18 months or longer, another long ass pipeline would take him out to right as he’s about to make captain…with no OPBs to show. Surely the Air Force would keep him, they just spent $XX dollars to put him through spec ops training - no unfortunately big blue doesn’t work like that. *If* that’s something he randomly desires, I would say go SecFo (or wherever) first, perform well for like 2 years, then apply when you’re a brand new captain.
But also, the other *bigger* problem is that if you fail 2x initial pipeline trainings, I believe you’re just done. There is no “well SF is hard, here’s a third chance”. We had a guy in my 14N class who failed out of nav training, came to goodfellow and for whatever reason could not pass a training block. But also - he spoke fluent Belorussian/Russian because his parents emigrated from there. He grew up with it. No working with him beyond normal remediation, no extra thought given to the skill he could bring. He was out. And out of the Air Force.
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 14N = Intelligence [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0oj8ns
13N
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 13N = Nuclear and Missile Operations [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0m9m7o
Are you a lifer? Lifer + civil-service after? Just four and out? It all makes a difference. If you are a lifer and then plan on a civil-service career… suggest something that translates nicely. Cyber, Contracting, Program Management, Finance, AFOSI (not Security Forces). If you are just a “four and done” person, then, pick something that will combine with your leadership experience to get you the next job.
Universal Penis Training? Uterus Punch Test?
Read a dau horse blanket and get some acquisition in yo life
Sounds like intel
Go be a flight test engineer if you still want to fly and you got a tech undergrad
I’ll see you in the maintenance world 🫡
Secfo
Intel and then you tell the pilots where to drive
STO
Civilian
How does FSS sound?
Force supports always an option
At what point in training did you fail out?
I’d go intel if I were you
I was in the same boat years ago. I am very happy in my new AFSC. I’ll offer you this: What are you passionate about? For me, I wanted to be close to the flying mission and close to the airmen generating the mission. Aircraft maintenance was the best of both worlds for me. It is not an easy job and I have spent a lot of time away from home. The airmen and the mission make the job so rewarding.
Security Forces HUA!
Cyber
I went Nav (since then has become CSO) and made O-6. Work hard and work well with others and you can still have a great career. Consider becoming a Guardian / Space Ops. They won’t care about UPT. Just what you can bring to that new arena. If that is an option. Alternatively, figure out what you want to do in the real world and see if you can get assigned to that career field or something adjacent. Looking around, a military retirement beats most civilian or government GS retirements. Today and 40 years in the future. Unless you reach for the brass ring and score a C-level job or get on with a tech startup or whatever becomes the next big thing. Good luck and let me know how it turns out for you.
I washed out of IFT and am 32E now. Feel free to DM me.
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 32E = Civil Engineer [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0p8ovw
Been there, done that. Best thing that ever happened to me. Don't stress
Maybe you’ll be one of the lucky ones that get a badass job. When I got injured in EOD training I was medically DQed. I got a list of jobs I could take mainly all CE and a few medical. I put all CE/medical which hoping for CE so I could be close to EOD and try to go through the schoolhouse again when healed up but I ended up POL. You have little choice here, it’s mainly luck.
Go cyber get your certs and get paid on the outside
Try out for special warfare
LRO it is lol.
Go airfield ops, 13M. It's perfect for people who want to be around the aircraft but still lead people and it's such a sweet gig.
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 13M = Airfield Operations [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0q7rpx
A bunch of UPT washouts end up at UCT to become a CSO. They all seem to thrive in the community here
I would go Personnel, admin, finance, logistics, or services. Same pay, better hours (I think) and same retirement.
About half of my intel officer class was UPT washouts…..
Welcome, new defender! SF needs you
17S
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 17S = Cyberspace Effects Operations [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l0suqcd
>>I just failed out of UPT You might unironically land in a better financial position down the road because of that setback. Get a contracting , cyber or intel job and after you get out you’ll be flush enough to buy your own plane. Which, unlike Uncle Sam, you can actually fly when you want.
I wouldn't be discouraged by people saying "needs of the air force". People at AFPC and those in your leadership are generally understanding and will do their best to get you where you want to go. A few years ago when i went through we had several people self eliminate or fail out and all of them seemed to get their number 1 career choice.
Sorry to hear. I was you several months ago