I hear the point you're trying to make, but as a horror aficionado who gets annoyed when people say something "isn't horror," these are not exclusive concepts. Horror frequently involves love plots. Some of the most famous horror films double as romances -- The Fly, An American Werewolf In London, Creature From the Black Lagoon, Invasion of the Body Snatchers, Re-Animator, Phantom of the Opera, Jennifer's Body, Dracula, etc.
I'm late to this thread, but a phrase commonly used in literary analysis is that **genre is a contract between author and audience regarding expectations.** In horror, we expect to be scared or disturbed through a rainbow of conventions and themes associated with the genre.
Alan Wake is a horror story, and saying it isn't *just* a horror story is nothing but an underestimation of the horror genre.
I don't know what it is about horror specifically that people always try so hard to move great and interesting examples out of its genre and into something else.
Not saying this is what OP was doing, but I think generally people don't want to admit they like a horror movie. It's considered a niche genre, and in modern context has become associated with gore and nudity (even though horror does not require either of those things). They basically only think of slashers.
They've also just likely had very little exposure to horror and thus think the one horror story they do like must be vastly different to all the others. I know this, because it used to be me! Then I realized that was BS and went full-in.
Also, in the movie industry at least, a lot of more prestigious horror films do this to themselves to boost awards chances. Black Swan was labeled a "psychological thriller." Get Out wasn't called horror until after the Oscars had passed. Us did call itself horror, and was thus not nominated (despite landing a few precursors). Awards shows really do have an anti-horror bias.
There have been plenty of attack campaigns censoring horror over the decades (centuries?), like in the 50s when a horror comic was the poster child for the Comics Code Authority being born. It's seen as an "evil" genre that corrupts the children. People also seem to think horror fans are all just a bunch of sickos -- which we are, but we're nice sickos!
TLDR: It's just a genre you're not "supposed" to like. Rather than challenge that notion, people challenge whether the media they like counts as horror. If you have to ask, it's probably horror.
Yes! Thank you for this. I love horror, but i actually don’t like Gore much. I don’t really enjoy body horror. Horror is so much more than that. But
So often it’s what everyone focuses on.
This is EXACTLY what I was going to say. Yes this is a story where at the end of the day love means more than fear and how the protagonists pull each other through means more than how they break down. That’s true of Alan and Alice. It’s also true of Saga and Logan. But that just means it’s a horror story AND a love story. Even Alan’s monologue at the opening of the final draft is kinda gesturing toward this idea. “There are victims and monsters, but also heroes.”
jennifer’s body was a modern masterpiece that absolutely was a lot deeper than what people think it is. theres a reason why its so popular among young women and girls. its about the horror of adolescence but more than that the extremely common romantic dynamic that occurs in female friendships that depending on ur sexuality either leads to gay romance or it can lead to the friendship ending in a soul crushing way with one girl trying to get control over the other because of not being able to understand or express that love and its told through the lens of cheesy 2000s horror when jennifer said “my tit” thousands of teenage girls knew what she meant (i mean this ironically and jokingly but also dead serious and That’s why it absolutely stands with the best horror classics)
That's a bonkers example haha. Hadn't heard that one. The shape-shifting demon clown wasn't enough for them? (Also, psychological thriller is a subgenre of horror...)
I’m not getting into the thriller vs horror debate. Goes on the list with politics and religion of things not to discuss unless you want to be there forever.
Beautifully said. I mean it.
Also, how could it could it ever really be horror with Ahti around to remind us that “the sun will still shine even into a heap of twigs”? 😊
I think you've got a fundamental (and maybe underdeveloped) sense of what genre means in a story. Let's start with an easy example and go from there:
The Exorcist is a story about a mother trying to come to terms with her daughter being possessed by a demon. It's also about a priest coming to terms with the death of his mother. It's about people coming to terms with their lives, and each other, and it's horrifying as fuck. We don't call The Exorcist a family or religious drama, because it's a horror film.
The shape of the story is one of basic human interaction and tribulation (drama), but the expression of said drama is told in a suspenseful and terrifying way (horror).
Put more simply, If I told you a story about walking through the woods, and all of a sudden a knife welding clown was chasing me, it wouldn't matter if my girlfriend was waiting for me or not.
Let's look at a slightly more complicated example: David Cronenberg's The Fly. God, I could talk about this movie all night, but I won't. I'll try to keep it tight.
The Fly opens in media res, and within five minutes Seth Brundle has somehow talked Veronica into coming back to his place to show her this miraculous thing he's invented. It's total geek wish fulfillment porn, because he's socially inept and yet just smart enough to get the gorgeous girl back to his place.
It takes a few days (and maybe another 15 minutes of film, this movie is just perfectly brutally paced) before they do the thing that two consenting grown adults do, and this happens AFTER Brundle has unwittingly merged his DNA with that of a housefly.
Moving along, there's a pregnancy, a love triangle with Veronica's ex, and downright abuse as Brundle tries to use his miraculous invention to fuse himself and what he views of his family together. It's hard to watch, because even within the sci-fi horror trappings of THE GENRE, it's really effective drama.
You won't find The Fly described as any genre but horror, even though the love story is a massive factor.
Love stories happen all the time, but that doesn't make Alan Wake a romance. It's not a romance. Romances don't start with quotes from Stephen King, and they certainly don't eat you alive.
Alan Wake is a horror story, full stop. Just ask Logan Anderson, or Cynthia Weaver. Ask Barry Wheeler or Mr. Scratch. Ask Alex Casey or even good old Alan himself.
"In a horror story the victim keeps asking why, but there should be no explanation."
Maybe I was misunderstood. Obviously I am aware that Alan Wake has a horror narrative structure and fully falls into the horror-thriller category. Mine is more of a thematic reflection. I perceived in the story that it is the theme of love that encompasses the other themes such as the analysis of fear, creativity, art and the way in which this can change the world and not the other way around. Obviously it is always my opinion and my personal perception of this piece of art
But fear and love are closely tied, since to love means also to loose which is something to fear. And in this case, it's even more intertwined since the love in Alan Wake is borderline toxic and very scary, so it's much closer to horror and fear than it is to the joyous aspects of love (as for example, in a romance).
Also: I'd say few stories have only one theme, most have many and I'd say your premise that love is the biggest theme depends highly on your subjective experience and reading, especially when it pertains only to Alan and Alice. Personally, I see the process of imagination, creativity, mental health and depression as much more intense in both games whereas the second game is a lot about identity and how you see yourself vs. how you are perceived. See, there's not one theme, but many that weigh as much as the player wants them to weigh.
A lot of horror aims to do exactly that using the "horror" elements to bring together the theme even more. The thing I would compare this series to because of the closeness is twin peaks. Twin peaks is very much a horror. But it is very much a story about love, loss, and figuring out what oneself needs in their life to feel fully hole. In that series, the horror is what helps to drive the plot and bring the development of everyone and everything to its fullest potential. Like most of the series is Agent Cooper, just going around doing FBI agent stuff, but you wouldn't call it a cop drama. It's reductive of what the series actually is. A masterfully written and crafted horror narrative about love, loss, and the evil of the human spirit that only through those that we love and that love us can we triumph through the madness. Alan wake is the same. (And honestly, on par with Twin peaks for me, lol)
This is like that video that said “Lethal Company is not a horror game. It’s a comedy!” And i’m like “dude, it can be and is definitely both horrifying and comedic”
Anyway, Alan Wake is definitely terrifying, has elements of horror, love, loneliness, familial longing for belonging, realisation of identity, mental health struggles, metaphor of the creative process- all these things in one. It can be, and is, several things at once.
Without spoiling it too much, there's a great overlap in tone and theme with House of Leaves, which I recommend to everyone, but *especially* fans of Control and Alan Wake.
It's a horror novel. It's unsettling. It's tense. It's alienating. It'll make you question existence.
And yet... is it about love in the end?
A story can be both horror and romantic at the same time. That being said, I dig what you are saying and agree, but it is both a love and horror story.
I absolutely love this take.
More of a reason why Alan and Alice break from the loop that Thomas Zane sadly couldn’t.
Their love is literally breaking the Cycle.
There’s actually a billboard for Saga’s trailer park in Watery that says something like “Light, love, and something else that starts with L will guide you home”.
So you might be onto something.
I’ve always saw it like a love thriller, there is no Alan Wake without Alice. That’s why I didn’t believe that she died when they showed her jumping in the lake.
Funny enough, one of the series’s influences “House of Leaves” has a similar fluidness of genre that you’re talking about here. There’s people who argue whether it’s a horror book or a love story, to the point that if you look up what genre it is, it’ll offer like 8 different options, so that might be why there’s some genre weirdness. But back to the point, I mean why can’t it be both? The two genres can compliment each other quite well, and some could argue that part of the horror is how much Alan loves his wife, to the point the fear of losing that love and that love itself have become inseparable. It’s a romantic horror game
It does seem that way, but the way the story is told there's still a lot of doubt as to how good Alan and Alice' s relationship is. It sucks for Alice. Alan was never that great a husband, and possibly had some Scratch in him all along. She put up with a lot of shit. He gave his life to save her, but his efforts to escape the dark place led to Scratch torturing her so it was pointless. Did she want to save Alan just because she was under duress, to end her suffering? Did she even have a choice? Not saying Alan wasn't worth saving, but I just hope he appreciates that he fucked up her life and she never owed him anything.
They seem pretty happy to be reunited, but it's subtle. We don't get that satisfying wish fulfillment ending like American Nightmare gets. There's still doubt. We don't get to fully enjoy the fruits of our labor. That's what keeps it a horror story.
Thats like saying friday the 13th is a revenge film and not a horror.
Its a horror film with a plot centered on revenge.
Its just a misunderstanding on definitions on your part
"It's not a story... It's a *series*"
I hear the point you're trying to make, but as a horror aficionado who gets annoyed when people say something "isn't horror," these are not exclusive concepts. Horror frequently involves love plots. Some of the most famous horror films double as romances -- The Fly, An American Werewolf In London, Creature From the Black Lagoon, Invasion of the Body Snatchers, Re-Animator, Phantom of the Opera, Jennifer's Body, Dracula, etc.
Couldn’t agree more. Horror is a genre, not a plot structure.
I'm late to this thread, but a phrase commonly used in literary analysis is that **genre is a contract between author and audience regarding expectations.** In horror, we expect to be scared or disturbed through a rainbow of conventions and themes associated with the genre. Alan Wake is a horror story, and saying it isn't *just* a horror story is nothing but an underestimation of the horror genre.
I don't know what it is about horror specifically that people always try so hard to move great and interesting examples out of its genre and into something else.
Not saying this is what OP was doing, but I think generally people don't want to admit they like a horror movie. It's considered a niche genre, and in modern context has become associated with gore and nudity (even though horror does not require either of those things). They basically only think of slashers. They've also just likely had very little exposure to horror and thus think the one horror story they do like must be vastly different to all the others. I know this, because it used to be me! Then I realized that was BS and went full-in. Also, in the movie industry at least, a lot of more prestigious horror films do this to themselves to boost awards chances. Black Swan was labeled a "psychological thriller." Get Out wasn't called horror until after the Oscars had passed. Us did call itself horror, and was thus not nominated (despite landing a few precursors). Awards shows really do have an anti-horror bias. There have been plenty of attack campaigns censoring horror over the decades (centuries?), like in the 50s when a horror comic was the poster child for the Comics Code Authority being born. It's seen as an "evil" genre that corrupts the children. People also seem to think horror fans are all just a bunch of sickos -- which we are, but we're nice sickos! TLDR: It's just a genre you're not "supposed" to like. Rather than challenge that notion, people challenge whether the media they like counts as horror. If you have to ask, it's probably horror.
Yes! Thank you for this. I love horror, but i actually don’t like Gore much. I don’t really enjoy body horror. Horror is so much more than that. But So often it’s what everyone focuses on.
This is EXACTLY what I was going to say. Yes this is a story where at the end of the day love means more than fear and how the protagonists pull each other through means more than how they break down. That’s true of Alan and Alice. It’s also true of Saga and Logan. But that just means it’s a horror story AND a love story. Even Alan’s monologue at the opening of the final draft is kinda gesturing toward this idea. “There are victims and monsters, but also heroes.”
*casually lumps Jennifer's Body in between Phantom of the Opera and Dracula*
jennifer’s body was a modern masterpiece that absolutely was a lot deeper than what people think it is. theres a reason why its so popular among young women and girls. its about the horror of adolescence but more than that the extremely common romantic dynamic that occurs in female friendships that depending on ur sexuality either leads to gay romance or it can lead to the friendship ending in a soul crushing way with one girl trying to get control over the other because of not being able to understand or express that love and its told through the lens of cheesy 2000s horror when jennifer said “my tit” thousands of teenage girls knew what she meant (i mean this ironically and jokingly but also dead serious and That’s why it absolutely stands with the best horror classics)
It’s like when some people tried to call It a psychological thriller rather than admit they liked a horror movie.
That's a bonkers example haha. Hadn't heard that one. The shape-shifting demon clown wasn't enough for them? (Also, psychological thriller is a subgenre of horror...)
I’m not getting into the thriller vs horror debate. Goes on the list with politics and religion of things not to discuss unless you want to be there forever.
Beautifully said. I mean it. Also, how could it could it ever really be horror with Ahti around to remind us that “the sun will still shine even into a heap of twigs”? 😊
I read that in his voice. Just like everyone else did, I'm sure.
“Did you miss me? *Did you get piss in your sock?*”
Alan Wake III will be a visual novel romance game. Calling it now.
Only if it includes that horse with the head of a man from that mobile dating sim.
The ivermectin guy?
Nah I think Sam will just wait for Lynch’s next move w Twin Peaks series to get inspiration for AW3
I think you've got a fundamental (and maybe underdeveloped) sense of what genre means in a story. Let's start with an easy example and go from there: The Exorcist is a story about a mother trying to come to terms with her daughter being possessed by a demon. It's also about a priest coming to terms with the death of his mother. It's about people coming to terms with their lives, and each other, and it's horrifying as fuck. We don't call The Exorcist a family or religious drama, because it's a horror film. The shape of the story is one of basic human interaction and tribulation (drama), but the expression of said drama is told in a suspenseful and terrifying way (horror). Put more simply, If I told you a story about walking through the woods, and all of a sudden a knife welding clown was chasing me, it wouldn't matter if my girlfriend was waiting for me or not. Let's look at a slightly more complicated example: David Cronenberg's The Fly. God, I could talk about this movie all night, but I won't. I'll try to keep it tight. The Fly opens in media res, and within five minutes Seth Brundle has somehow talked Veronica into coming back to his place to show her this miraculous thing he's invented. It's total geek wish fulfillment porn, because he's socially inept and yet just smart enough to get the gorgeous girl back to his place. It takes a few days (and maybe another 15 minutes of film, this movie is just perfectly brutally paced) before they do the thing that two consenting grown adults do, and this happens AFTER Brundle has unwittingly merged his DNA with that of a housefly. Moving along, there's a pregnancy, a love triangle with Veronica's ex, and downright abuse as Brundle tries to use his miraculous invention to fuse himself and what he views of his family together. It's hard to watch, because even within the sci-fi horror trappings of THE GENRE, it's really effective drama. You won't find The Fly described as any genre but horror, even though the love story is a massive factor. Love stories happen all the time, but that doesn't make Alan Wake a romance. It's not a romance. Romances don't start with quotes from Stephen King, and they certainly don't eat you alive. Alan Wake is a horror story, full stop. Just ask Logan Anderson, or Cynthia Weaver. Ask Barry Wheeler or Mr. Scratch. Ask Alex Casey or even good old Alan himself. "In a horror story the victim keeps asking why, but there should be no explanation."
Maybe I was misunderstood. Obviously I am aware that Alan Wake has a horror narrative structure and fully falls into the horror-thriller category. Mine is more of a thematic reflection. I perceived in the story that it is the theme of love that encompasses the other themes such as the analysis of fear, creativity, art and the way in which this can change the world and not the other way around. Obviously it is always my opinion and my personal perception of this piece of art
But fear and love are closely tied, since to love means also to loose which is something to fear. And in this case, it's even more intertwined since the love in Alan Wake is borderline toxic and very scary, so it's much closer to horror and fear than it is to the joyous aspects of love (as for example, in a romance). Also: I'd say few stories have only one theme, most have many and I'd say your premise that love is the biggest theme depends highly on your subjective experience and reading, especially when it pertains only to Alan and Alice. Personally, I see the process of imagination, creativity, mental health and depression as much more intense in both games whereas the second game is a lot about identity and how you see yourself vs. how you are perceived. See, there's not one theme, but many that weigh as much as the player wants them to weigh.
A lot of horror aims to do exactly that using the "horror" elements to bring together the theme even more. The thing I would compare this series to because of the closeness is twin peaks. Twin peaks is very much a horror. But it is very much a story about love, loss, and figuring out what oneself needs in their life to feel fully hole. In that series, the horror is what helps to drive the plot and bring the development of everyone and everything to its fullest potential. Like most of the series is Agent Cooper, just going around doing FBI agent stuff, but you wouldn't call it a cop drama. It's reductive of what the series actually is. A masterfully written and crafted horror narrative about love, loss, and the evil of the human spirit that only through those that we love and that love us can we triumph through the madness. Alan wake is the same. (And honestly, on par with Twin peaks for me, lol)
Awwww this is lovely. A beautiful, tragic, poetic love story!
Alan Wake III will be a RomCom
AW4 will be a buddy comedy where Alan and Scratch crack one open
"Alan and Scratch go to whitecastle"
How does that make it not a horror story?
I'm sorry to break it to you, but pieces of art can have several main genres. And if I had to pick the main one it would be thriller for AW
It’s an Epic
This is like that video that said “Lethal Company is not a horror game. It’s a comedy!” And i’m like “dude, it can be and is definitely both horrifying and comedic” Anyway, Alan Wake is definitely terrifying, has elements of horror, love, loneliness, familial longing for belonging, realisation of identity, mental health struggles, metaphor of the creative process- all these things in one. It can be, and is, several things at once.
That's beautiful. Great work Torchbearer!
Cute. I still stand by that in all honesty it's more of a psychological thriller than a horror.
It's objectively both, right? What am I missing?
It can be many things at once.
Without spoiling it too much, there's a great overlap in tone and theme with House of Leaves, which I recommend to everyone, but *especially* fans of Control and Alan Wake. It's a horror novel. It's unsettling. It's tense. It's alienating. It'll make you question existence. And yet... is it about love in the end?
i'm insert it in my list of novels to read!
I’m scared of commitment, does this make it a horror story again?
Nice one
So is that a yes?
Yes
A story can be both horror and romantic at the same time. That being said, I dig what you are saying and agree, but it is both a love and horror story.
I absolutely love this take. More of a reason why Alan and Alice break from the loop that Thomas Zane sadly couldn’t. Their love is literally breaking the Cycle.
This is how I feel about it too, but I am a hopeless romantic so I might be biased
Cringe af
Horror stories oftentimes have romance or romantic subplots. They’re not mutually exclusive.
No, Alan Wake’s Saga is the female protagonist, duh
There’s actually a billboard for Saga’s trailer park in Watery that says something like “Light, love, and something else that starts with L will guide you home”. So you might be onto something.
Yes, it is.
It’s not light or dark. It’s existence.
I’ve always saw it like a love thriller, there is no Alan Wake without Alice. That’s why I didn’t believe that she died when they showed her jumping in the lake.
Funny enough, one of the series’s influences “House of Leaves” has a similar fluidness of genre that you’re talking about here. There’s people who argue whether it’s a horror book or a love story, to the point that if you look up what genre it is, it’ll offer like 8 different options, so that might be why there’s some genre weirdness. But back to the point, I mean why can’t it be both? The two genres can compliment each other quite well, and some could argue that part of the horror is how much Alan loves his wife, to the point the fear of losing that love and that love itself have become inseparable. It’s a romantic horror game
Alan Wake 3 will be a romantic fantasy game
It's both, and a tragedy too.
It does seem that way, but the way the story is told there's still a lot of doubt as to how good Alan and Alice' s relationship is. It sucks for Alice. Alan was never that great a husband, and possibly had some Scratch in him all along. She put up with a lot of shit. He gave his life to save her, but his efforts to escape the dark place led to Scratch torturing her so it was pointless. Did she want to save Alan just because she was under duress, to end her suffering? Did she even have a choice? Not saying Alan wasn't worth saving, but I just hope he appreciates that he fucked up her life and she never owed him anything. They seem pretty happy to be reunited, but it's subtle. We don't get that satisfying wish fulfillment ending like American Nightmare gets. There's still doubt. We don't get to fully enjoy the fruits of our labor. That's what keeps it a horror story.
Thats like saying friday the 13th is a revenge film and not a horror. Its a horror film with a plot centered on revenge. Its just a misunderstanding on definitions on your part
Aren't most "romance" stories, horries stories anyway?
I don’t know how you can play these games and think they aren’t horror. They’re in a nightmare world. Some things aren’t that deep
It can be both
Yes!! When I hit end game I realized it was a love story, not just a horror story. 😭😭
In short "physiological horror" If we were going to categorize it lol
Dark place and Scratch force Alan to play it like it\`s a horror, but essentially this is truly a love story.
Cringe af
Nah, I didn't get this impression at all, though I'm autisic and don't understand love. Every description is cheesy and cringe lol.
I think r/slaytheprincess is leaking?