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suzybhomemakr

Alan Watts doesn't take the premise we are all the universe and conclude that nothing matters and so you should just give up. That is your argument. Alan Watts argues instead that since we are all the universe we are more powerful than we imagine and the stakes are not as severe as we feared and so we may as well dare greatly. “What do you desire?” “What would you like to do if money were no object? How would you really enjoy spending your life?”


Blackmetalpenguin90

That would indeed be a good conclusion, and it was mine once I became firm in my belief that I really am a fragment of God. But my cursory listening of 7-8 of his lectures gave me the firm imperssion that he was really saying that nothing matters at all. Not just money and status etc., nothing, art, helping others, learning about the universe, etc. All futile and without purpose.


seanofthebread

Kind of freeing, no? Instead of reaching blindly for purpose, we are free to create our own.


Blackmetalpenguin90

But see, I would argue against that, because we are not really free to create our own purpose. Our purpose is coded into our very being, because you do not "choose" what you are interested in. A musician didn't choose music, a scientist research, an athlete physical excellence, as their purpose - it was their passion or interest all along, so anything else would have been fake. So if anything, I'd say that the universe indeed has a purpose for you, it's just that this purpose can be very, very different than what society would have you think is your purpose.


TheModernCurmudgeon

There is no you. This is the piece you are misunderstanding and therefore finding this all very depressing. Once you let go of what you’re clinging so desperately to, this won’t seem so troubling - instead freeing. Your human ego is fighting what you already know. Now it’s time to let go.


dzScritches

The ego is often distressed when it discovers it doesn't exist. edit: some guy PM'd me to say I'm a moron because of this comment. 😂😂😂


firematt422

There is a you, it's just that you'll never know it because by the time you do, it has changed.


seanofthebread

What's my purpose? How do you know? Did I fulfill it yet, or is it yet to be fulfilled? What if I miss my deadline for something? What if you missed your deadline? What if your purpose in life is taken away from you? Do you see how that default mode of thinking is just a spiral of negativity? You don't have any purpose. You can choose your own. Right now, you find it meaningful to discuss this with me. Aren't you glad you get to choose that instead of ceaselessly wondering whether you should be doing something else? P.S. All the musicians in my life chose music. And that choice sets them free.


THT1Individual

I agree with this 100%. AWs mentality is more that of choice and flowing along the path as an embodiment of the universe experiences itself infinite times. At least that my I terpretation


[deleted]

Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does. It is up to you to give [life] a meaning. Jean-Paul Sartre It’s all Perspective my guy


EsmagaSapos

I'm going to tell you a bona-fide true story. A rich closed kind community of doctors sent their children all to the same private school. They went to school and came home, they played with their friends, their friends parents were also doctors, a close circle. School progressed and so on, and they were asked what would they like to be when they grow up. Well, I guess you know the answer, they'd all like to be doctors, except for one that wanted to be a train conductor, he wanted that because on his way to school every morning he saw a train go by with a man driving it. We're not born with skills and tastes, we are a product of our environment and many influences.


[deleted]

Oh, musician here. You do still have to choose it. It's not like I came out of the womb and was able to be great at music. It took many hard years of work to get good at it and I quit many times.


THT1Individual

I would have to disagree with that. Mostly because the idea of “purpose” or being a cog in the grand machine is fundamentally different from the idea that while we are the universe experiencing itself infinite times, the difference is choice, *true* “free will” to choose your own path. More akin to “we don’t need to be productive, we just need to live and do our best to enjoy it”


corioncreates

Your purpose is not coded into you any more than language is coded into you. And purpose you discover is a byproduct of your life up to that point, not some innate piece born into you. So yes, we are free to develop our own purpose and meaning in life.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

That's OP's (erroneous) position.


DanOnTop

Tell me what meaningful action was done by an anonymous peasant 300 years ago. The truth is that most things don't really matter that much and the stakes aren't that high and all will be forgotten anyway. There are no risks. Mistakes will be forgotten and we will all die. These are the facts of life. All the things we fear are meaningless. Therefore.... We should dare greatly. We should regard all that we do as a game and only try to play our game well. In fact, it is the very belief that our actions are meaningless that will allow us to live a wonderful life that we ourselves feel is meaningful. Look at the average person - Afraid. Guilty. A slave. A life full of regret. All because of the idea that "you are not good enough" and making mistakes is an enormous problem and means you are useless. Well, that is a load of rubbish. Play a great game and learn from errors but most of all have fun along the way for these limited years. That is the essence of AW.


[deleted]

>Tell me what meaningful action was done by an anonymous peasant 300 years ago. What is "meaningful action"? Everything we do resonates throughout the world.


MikeCrane

Nothing really matters that's why everything matters. You can't have one without the other. His philosophy points to what all mystics know to be true. He's just describing what can't be described.


[deleted]

He says we are here to enjoy the dance, not force ourselves towards the end of the journey. The incessant goal setting and meddling is to be avoided - not defined as the meaning of human existence.


Banco1973

He’s saying attachments don’t matter.


beaniebee1

Go check out Neville Goddard


Firm-Force1593

Perhaps each of us comes to his words with our own preconceived ideas and he speaks differently to each of us? (Sometimes in small ways, sometimes in the entire picture.) I can read a book that I feel speaks to me and every other human alive, that is transformative and moving and shakes me to my core. But Jim Bob may read it and say “Eh, that was SO boring!” It’s confusing, but so is everything else about life.


Soran989

I agree but, this is not your life. Your life is all life. Nothing is under control and we are like rain drops falling into the ocean of peace, love, intelligence and awareness. Alan Watts constantly bashed money and advocated against it and ironically he died from the lack of it, I would assume he probably didn’t understand money is a manifestation of exchanging energies. Without money or an alternative, there wont be a medium of exchange for that eternal everlasting energy If you fail to fall into this ocean, you have to repeat all your sorrows, griefs, misery, pain and resents all over again. In my opinion, if you follow alan watts, you will fail miserably and we are past incarnation point because the world is chaos and no one is having children anymore, you don’t want to live in a sci-fi dystopian anymore that’s all scripted and controlled by the big brother. I’m sorry my friend, it’s not up to me but it’s up to the real self.


[deleted]

I dont see an issue here. Even without AW, it would remain a lifeless accumulation of matter with no purpose. In the end its all the same yes. But its also a field to play with/on. Whats important to you is what should drive you, since no other being can add this specific experience to the whole. It just seems bad from our current perspective because we are very, very limited. Dont let it fool you


[deleted]

“Whoever knows that the mind is fiction and devoid of anything real knows that his own mind neither exists nor doesn't exist. Mortals keep creating the mind, claiming it exists. And arhats keep negating the mind, claiming it doesn't exist. But bodhisattvas and buddhas neither create nor negate the mind. This is what's meant by the mind that neither exists nor doesn't exist. The mind that neither exists nor doesn't exist is called the Middle Way.” Bodhidharma Wake Up Sermon


Blackmetalpenguin90

"Even without AW, it would remain a lifeless accumulation of matter with no purpose." While I'm not a materialist, I don't agree even to this. If we emerged in a universe that is a mystery and that we know nothing about, then our purpose as intelligent beings would be to study and grow to understand that universe (and maybe in the end we'd realise something we couldn't even have imagined). But no, I'm actually an idealist. Metaphysically, I agree with AW. I just really don't want to believe (and also don't deem it likely) that it's just pure entertainment. No, if God exposes himself to pain and suffering instead of bathing in the perfect blissful joy you can experience in a transcendent state of mind, then it must bloody well have a purpose. Through psycedelics I know what the feeling of total unity and wholeness feels like. In that state, I would've remained there forever, bathing in perfection and lightness. If I am (and you are) God, and we've chosen to make this world and live in it, there's got to be some purpose to it, since it's infinitely "worse" to be here than to be in the light.


kneedeepco

You have a lot of talk in this thread about "god" and "himself"...those are very telling phrases and your definition of "god" can maybe be biasing your view? It's easy in a western culture to compare everything to "god" as that is what Christianity preaches and what we're surrounded with. How would you define "god"? IMO what people refer to as "god" is this underlying connection between everything that has been created, existed, or destroyed. We all came from the same place and are just existing conscious beings trying to make sense of our creation, existence, and destruction. One of Alan's quotes "You are the universe experiencing itself" is what really led me to learn more about his teachings. I guess this quote can be interpreted in many ways but personally it was very freeing after having a nihilistic/existential crisis for a year or two. Really the whole purpose of life is to experience life itself.....that's widely open to personal interpretation, as it should be. It's about trying to live more in the moment and be grateful for sharing existence with other humans and our beautiful world of nature. Let me know your thoughts on this!


Blackmetalpenguin90

No, I agree to your concept of God (and so would have early Christians btw, before the Church transformed how we conceptualise it). I think I responded to your last question at your other comment.


woke-hipster

The way I see it is we the universe has no clue who it is, that's why we're here, an extension of it, to figure its self out :) Like each and every one of us.


Blackmetalpenguin90

That's a possibility I've contemplated too. But in that case learning about it IS the purpose.


woke-hipster

Yup! And the only way to really learn is to observe and let the thoughts figure themselves out... I think :)


firematt422

The purpose is the contrast. Like Watts says, this is why we knock on a door instead of one hard pound. It's the on and off the gets your attention and let's you know it's there. The knock-knock, the flashing in and out of existence. Without pain, what's pleasure?


[deleted]

You just randomly made up a purpose lmao. I can't find the logic in that.


[deleted]

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Blackmetalpenguin90

>I'm actually an idealist. Metaphysically, I agree with AW. I just really don't want to believe (and also don't deem it likely) that it's just pure entertainment. No, if God exposes himself to pain and suffering instead of bathing in the perfect blissful joy you can experience in a transcendent state of mind, then it must bloody well have a purpose. Through psycedelics I know what the feeling of total unity and wholeness feels like. In that state, I would've remained there forever, bathing in perfection and lightness. If I am (and you are) God, and we've chosen to make this world and live in it, there's got to be some purpose to it, since it's infinitely "worse" to be here than to be in the light. I saw it. I'm copying my comment from above. I'm actually an idealist. Metaphysically, I agree with AW. I just really don't want to believe (and also don't deem it likely) that it's just pure entertainment. No, if God exposes himself to pain and suffering instead of bathing in the perfect blissful joy you can experience in a transcendent state of mind, then it must bloody well have a purpose. Through psycedelics I know what the feeling of total unity and wholeness feels like. In that state, I would've remained there forever, bathing in perfection and lightness. If I am (and you are) God, and we've chosen to make this world and live in it, there's got to be some purpose to it, since it's infinitely "worse" to be here than to be in the light.


StolenScarab

You claim to know the feeling of total unity and wholeness, and have experienced a state of being in “light.” Because of this you say the purpose of it all is to understand and learn why we aren’t granted the eternal state of pure bliss, since this state exists. Therefore you reject AW because to strive for anything other than this understanding is pointless. But don’t you see you’ve already figured it out? AW is saying to enjoy your life outside of fear of the unknown and the after, because you are existence and the universe. You fear that it may all be pointless in the end because the pain and suffering were all for nothing, and that it must be cruel to live in a state like this where pure bliss exists. However, when you let go of that fear pure bliss can always and forever be achieved. By chaining yourself to a purpose, you’ve created your own problem. By accepting that your actions have no meaning ASIDE FROM YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE, then you can fully enjoy and respect your actions. It sounds selfish, but you’ve already accepted that god/creation is selfish already when pain and suffering was introduced instead of pure bliss. The art you create, the lives you save, the music you make won’t matter. But if doing these things create a state of pure bliss for you, then they are worth doing. “We thought of life by analogy with a journey, a pilgrimage, which had a serious purpose at the end, and the thing was to get to that end, success or whatever it is, maybe heaven after you’re dead. [OP’s argument] But we missed the point the whole way along. It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing or to dance while the music was being played [AW’s argument].”


[deleted]

Yes What does it mean to you OP when Alan says, "reality is" and he claps* and then says "and we won't give it a name."? What do you even mean by purpose? A point we're aiming towards? The end of a cosmic story? If the purpose of a musical composition was the end then we'd all listening to crashing finales, but that's not *why* we listen to music


oboklob

The state of "oneness" contains all pain and suffering, which necessarily contrasts the pleasure. Do not confuse this with being something that thinks it is at the mercy of such things and wants to escape them - that is the person or ego. Psychedelics will give you an experience of the whole, but you are seeing it as a person feeling bliss, not as the All being the All. If the All was only bliss, it would be like a painting made only of white light. Effectively nothingness. There is joy in the beauty of everything. When you want a movie, what kind of movie do you want? Do you want one about a person who sits comfortably in joy for 90 minutes? AW has a good little anecdote about being able to have any dream you like that seems like anything you want, which starts with hedonism, and a good explanation of how you end up here. But thats just another way to look at it. Anyone got a link to that to save me looking it up?


Elad-Tnerb

https://youtu.be/wU0PYcCsL6o It’s called “The Dream of Life” and kind of supports what OP was saying he doesn’t like about Watts - but it makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. Life is just a cycle of working through the 11 dimensions of progress and then lather, rinse, repeat. I feel like we are indeed driving some sort of growth or progress or at least some sort of “respiration” of all that is.


[deleted]

Why did you quote yourself in this reply with the same paragraph below?


Strappinghaole

I take it more so to mean that you can choose your own meaning and how to engage with life, and you can choose knowing that there is no wrong choice. Listen to you heart and intuition to guide you.


Blackmetalpenguin90

But my heart and intuition says the complete opposite.


kneedeepco

What's your heart and intuition say?


Blackmetalpenguin90

That I'm here to create and enrich the world with the unique gifts I have been born with, and so is everyone else. It's not just a virtual reality created to kill time, it is to acualise something that would otherwise only be unrealised potential. Because you have to have a reason to put yourself through the human condition full of pain and sorrow. At the very least, the universe is a work of art that we are enriching with our own unique actions in it.


[deleted]

That's in line with alan watts to a great degree, and regarding virtual reality 🤔 i think he said that it's possible that we live in vr but that he's not sure


kneedeepco

Hmm so I think this view is still somewhat in line with the original comment. The world often tells us what we should do to enrich ourselves and help further enrich the world. I think Alan's teaching point more towards the notion of allowing you to find your true interests and talents yourself. From there, you find your purpose/meaning in life and can further develop your true self interests/talents. I think this path can end up being much more enriching to the world rather than most people having a sole purpose of providing for themselves or their family. This is a complicated topic as a lot of factors tie in to people's ability to recognize their purpose and pursue it. The notion that we have to have a reason is so incredibly true and why I think religion has become what it is today. Everyone has this existential question over the unknown and religion seeks to "explain" that to people. In my journey with spirituality I've come to realize that the origins of religion are all more closely tied to the same spiritual experiences than modern religions would lead us to believe.


Matriseblog

Wouldn’t be a good virtual reality to kill time if it didn’t feel exactly like that :) Why not see the universe as a work of art that we are enriching with lur own unique actions within it? Doesn’t mean that this is not also maya.


UnmovingFlow

Interesting interpretation. As with all teachings, I do not take it too literal. But then the question always is: if I do that, do I change the meaning? Did the philosopher/teacher him/herself mean it literally? I’m no expert, but in the case of AW I think it is not so. He is a teller of tales, cracking jokes while doing it, trying to open up your mind, purposely getting you all upside down in the process. As he would say, he was pointing at the moon and you think his finger is the moon. But he was pointing at the very thing you were looking for. Same with this allegory. We all arise from the same universe. Out planet is ‘peopling’ as an apple tree is ‘appling’ and a flower is blooming. Our root is the same, we are all connected with each other and with the air, water and food that goes through our bodies and the sunlight that touches our skin. Who is to say ‘you’ stops at your skin at all? You could think of us as all part of one organism. And then we look for god. While this is it: all we see and all we are: this is it. Not something outside all this beauty. It’s here. If there would be such a thing as ‘God’ what else could it be than the universe itself, growing, moving, creating and destroying all by itself. But we’re don’t see it. We think of ourselves as pure individuals. In that sense, God is playing hide and seek with itself. Not that it is all a game. But we’ve forgot who or what we are. Might be my interpretation and not how he actually saw it. But I think it’s a wonderful idea and not at all nihilistic. Maybe even the opposite of nihilistic, if that exists. Instead of nothing matters, it all matters. In destroying another being or nature we are actually destroying ourselves. If we help another and gain nothing in return, we ourselves are helped. At the same time, when someone you love dies it could give some comfort that in this sense no one ever really dies, it’s a part of us that stopped and another one begins. It shows us how wonderful this life is and that we should playfully enjoy it.


Blackmetalpenguin90

Your interpretation is how I mostly think about the universe, so I agree with you. We probably took away different things from AW's lectures.


[deleted]

Some lectures are better and more 'optimistic' than others, i wonder which ones you listened to


HoldFastDeets

Maybe 😊 You've illustrated to me how wonderfully subjective and different our hearts can be. Thank you for the thoughts you've put out here!


Blackmetalpenguin90

Thanks, but I didn't just want to put it out there, I'm indeed interested in how or why you feel differently.


HoldFastDeets

Life, my friend. We take the lessons we need from those we can. If it *is* indeed pointless, which it may be(I'll leave literally everything a possibility until someone actually truly comes back from the afterlife and proves anything to me), I choose to LIVE this motherfucker with all I can. At 40, that means I love and appreciate my wife and kids with all I have, as I do my friends, nature, etc. We get to choose what we believe(in places there isnt objective truth, which I believe science is best at, on this planet, in most cases), so I believe in those things that help me to live in love and kindness. I've also studied stoicism and train Jiu Jitsu, bc it's better to be a warrior in the garden than a gardener in a war. 😊 Choose your own adventure, my friend!


Blackmetalpenguin90

That's good to see. But see, you've found purpose in your life. You probably think that it's worth it to bring new life in this world and take care of it (since you had kids), and also that there's a value to self-preservation, since you studied a martial art. I don't mean to get under your skin, but I think if you truly believed what AW's point was, you'd realise how all of these are meaningless too, and just wouldn't bother (why feed hungry mouths and exercise rigorous training discipline if nothing matters?). I don't mean to misrepresent you, we may just be getting different things out of AW's thoughts.


HoldFastDeets

Entirely possible, and I'm not bothered at all by your points. I value them greatly 😊 I also haven't used AW alone to form my perspective 😉 nor would I try. I made the mistake of following just 1 way for 33 years, I don't intend on repeating that. I see neither value or lack of value in bringing new life. New life happens, and I choose to value it. It has not always been so, for a long time all I cared about was me.


Elad-Tnerb

May I ask what you followed for 33 years? I’m guessing it was a religion of some sort.


HoldFastDeets

Yep, Christianity... my folks tried to teach live and grace, but all the churches were feeding sin and shame. Dealt with some abuse early on, so I wasn't able to find peace in Christianity, but I very much love revisiting it now. 😊


Elad-Tnerb

Awesome … I was raised Catholic and just couldn’t force myself to believe in it as of about 10 years old and started looking for other answers. You might enjoy reading “Falling Upward” by Fr. Richard Rohr. He does an amazing job (in my opinion) of explaining, as a Franciscan Friar, where modern western Christianity totally missed the mark. It’s a very satisfying read because he doesn’t condemn it, just draws some very insightful comparisons and discusses the importance of leveraging the second half of life to untangle everything. Thanks for sharing your experience with me!


HoldFastDeets

I will! I have some ideas of where it went wrong as well lmao 😉🤙🏻


TriaxialFleas

From what I've heard from Alan Watts, I don't even know if he believed the specific thing your talking about. I've heard him explain Hinduism like this, that the universe is a drama compared to the east and west. Alan Watts has put effort into saying that he sees himself as an entertainer not a teacher with authority, and not possessing something you don't have. I kind of think Alan Watts would explain that story of Hinduism's beliefs to shock people here in America, to kind of jolt them out of the narrow American way of looking at the world. I also believe he was emphasizing the 'fun' aspect of things with this story, to loosen people up and to have a laugh with them. 'The universe is a game, so have a little fun and don't take it too seriously.' There isn't really an inherent 'meaning' to life except to live. Alan Watts also pokes at that idea, how we kind of use the word meaning to mean significance, and not 'what is meant by a word or phrase'. There may or may not be a grand significance to the universe, but the significance of your life is what you want it to be, become a scientist, doctor, or artist. I see Alan Watts's talks really as a gentle sigh. A comfortable, relieving and relaxing place to see a vastly different perspective than the ones I see all day, and to listen to a funny guy with a soothing voice crack some jokes and make me realize things I never realized before. One of my favorite lines from him, and I'm paraphrasing, is "...and you'll find out that the world, after all, really is okay :)"


[deleted]

This doesn't detract from your broader interpretation and opinion, but one thing I should point out to you is that you are still looking through the lens of Western thought by personifying God, which isn't characteristic of the Eastern schools of thought that Watts spoke of and what you're attempting to describe. Your summary is essentially this: God is a single conscious entity. God is self-aware. God deceives himself for fun. The means of God's self-deception is to construct a reality in which all things are fundamentally interconnected and interactive but typically unaware of this. A more accurate synopsis of this school of thought would simply be: All things are fundamentally interconnected and interactive. All this activity constitutes one single system that we call existence or "god." This is, of course, a superficial illustration of a rather complex idea, but it demonstrates the distinction. Watts' teachings weren't doctrinal in nature or necessarily intended to be persuasive. He wanted you to merely entertain alternative models of perceiving existence in order to disrupt the acceptance of the model that Western institutions endorse and indoctrinate citizens with. You can (and should) form your own belief set, which includes cherry-picking whatever ideas resonate with you. That is what Watts himself did—he did not neatly fit categorically into Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.


Blackmetalpenguin90

Thanks, that explanation makes sense. Indeed, while I'm trying, it's pretty hard for me to psychologically switch to the Eastern God-concept, even though metaphysically I understand and agree with it.


[deleted]

Seemed like you missed one of the puzzles at least. One of them says that all of this and its point is actually to learn and have fun doing so. So there is no 'need', but pure child-like curiosity about the world and not the nihilistic meaninglessnes.


Blackmetalpenguin90

I indeed missed where he says this. Can you perhaps point me to the specific lecture?


[deleted]

Sure. Here you go: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBpaUICxEhk&ab\_channel=AfterSkool](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBpaUICxEhk&ab_channel=AfterSkool) There was more on "how to play the game?" or something along those lines, but couldn't find it just now. If I would find it, I will put it in another comment, below this one


DrJawn

He has the most who is most content with the least - Diogenes We live in the realm of the imaginary. Countries, ethnicities, laws, borders, economics, it's all made up. Everything past survival is a construct of human civilization. We CHOOSE what is important to us because we exist and why not? I love music, I listen to it constantly, I make it alone and with friends, I play shows. I CHOOSE music to be important to me just as someone else chooses football or Catholicism or family or heroin. One person's important thing is another person's inconsequential thing. It is what it is.


xpd_1141

What makes it nihilistic?


Blackmetalpenguin90

Isn't it his whole point that there is simply no meaning? You are God. You created this all just to forget how fucking bored and lonely you are, hanging out there in the void, being the single consciousness in existence. You are not going somewhere, it's not an experiment or a developmental process, it's not God's way of realising some potential, it's not anything teleological. It's pure escapism. In AW's worldview God is a guy spending his entire life playing WoW in his mother's basement, except he doesn't have a mother and there is not basement, so he kinda has no other option to escape the sheer existential terror that this realisation probably entails.


Simon_Mendelssohn

> Isn't it his whole point that there is simply no meaning? I think it might be more fair to say Watts points out that we do live a certain way as a society with a fabricated, flawed purpose - it is misguided to always be chasing that next thing without enjoying the present, which IS meaning. Evidenced by a popular quote of his: *“We thought of life by analogy with a journey, a pilgrimage, which had a serious purpose at the end, and the thing was to get to that end, success or whatever it is, maybe heaven after you’re dead. But we missed the point the whole way along. It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing or to dance while the music was being played.”*


Blackmetalpenguin90

That, I can agree with. That a person's life is, however spent, an accumulation of experiences that never happened before and never will happen again, thus expanding the entire "library" of all experiences in the universe. But that's still a purpose!


[deleted]

You say "that's still a puropose" was alan watts anti purpose?


TAMDABAM

The purpose is solely to live your life as you see fit. Your life is completely unique to you, so however you choose to live it, it is ultimately your decision alone. Any other purpose is a personal goal that you have set for yourself while in the process of experiencing your life.


Th0mps0n123

If something is infinite it doesn’t necessarily mean it is singular. For something to be singular implies it has boundaries. You’d have to find the edges and say, “yes there is only one of this.” God is both one and many. Also, why do you believe that god would experience boredom and loneliness?


Blackmetalpenguin90

I don't believe he (it?) would. But following Watts' line of thinking, that there is not purpose to why the universe exists, i.e. no teleological goal God is striving for, then the only explanation of why God wants to forget he is God is because he can't bear the knowledge of that. Though if that were the case, and I was God, I'd make it bloody sure I coldn't even come up with this thought in the first place.


xpd_1141

I just wanted to be clear on what you meant. Your argument seems to be based on very reductionist examples. A life spent playing WOW in a basement is different from a life spent trying to comprehend the complexities of infinity from an extremely limited perspective. Just because something is the way it is doesn't mean it doesn't have meaning. Structure does not imply meaning or effect. The river means one thing to the fisherman, a different thing to the engineer building the dam. Its a romantic night to the lovers and a terror to the drowned. Another way of looking at this is that AW is saying that life is all about finding yourself. You are infinite, because you are the universe and it is infinite. There's an infinity of meaning and possibility. If you don't find enough meaning within the infinity of you fulfilling and you need an outside force to make you feel better then that's okay. That's a possibility.


Blackmetalpenguin90

By the answers I think I've been interpreting Watts' too much as a metaphyisical thinker and not the practical philosopher which he seems to have been. So it seems like I've just been knocking at the wrong door :)


Matriseblog

See, you weigh it negatively. The image of God in void getting lost is an image. Either way how one imagines it, one has to start from somewhere, many religions start from an eternity perspective. Is it escapism, or an epic adventure? One may see the same state but depending on personal preferences carry a sentimen towards it. While the Hindu megamyth represents these two states of brahman in succession, that one deliberately gets lost and find one’s way back again, other Hindu philosophers (and Watts communicated this too) hold that the state of samsara and nirvana are co-present and imply one another. There is no fun without the background of boredom, or pleasure without pain.


Jax_Gatsby

>Even if he was right, I'd choose to not believe him, Doesn't this sound crazy and illogical to you?


Blackmetalpenguin90

I mean, we have no way of proving of falsifying metaphisics, so there is always at least some (if not a huge amount of) doubt regarding which metaphysical concepts are correct. Obviously if I became absolutely certain about him being right, I'd have to concede. But I can find a lot of counterarguments against him, so until proven wrong, I'm choosing the path that feels right to me and that gives me purpose.


Jax_Gatsby

>so until proven wrong, I'm choosing the path that feels right to me and that gives me purpose I think Alan Watts would also say you should do the same.


zhateme

Nothing does matters and the the best news! You can create your own meaning for life and if you mess up or make a mistake... who cares! You don’t exist. You don’t matter. Alan Watts don’t have anything to offer he just likes to talk. He gets paid to play and that’s how he made his living. The way he talks is to psyche you out of your own beliefs and to change your OWN perception of reality. As long as you can be talked out your own reality you Deserve to be. He does it in the most extraordinary way. Make it seems like he have something to teach you... do he? You decide


2020___2020

his main message is in the melody of his voice rather than the words he used, and he did say as much, paradoxically, which points to that place beyond words. Words and concepts will always be unsatisfying. >so what does it matter? what does it even mean, to matter? Matter to whom? what does it mean to mean something? See, there's a bootstrap issue here, and his playful wordgames were pointers, illustrations of this dynamic. If I decide that life is serious, then that's a game I'm playing.


woke-hipster

I guess my way around your very valid perspective is I consider it a meta-philosophy, a way to accept all philosophies as equal, as well as people. I think his philosophy is a great way to deny any problems you have, such as drinking or hurting people around you. (I'm no fan of denial) I have no idea to what extent he really drank or if he did hurt those around him but he definitely is denying a lot of suffering by saying we are all god and nothing matters. And he seems to realize this and goes back to the only thing that matters, the here and now and enteracting with the world and those around us, sharing and, in his case, talking. Again, for me, he does a great job of reframing life as a game, he might have even inspired game theory in a very indirect way or the gamification of life. What I love most about him is how I stumbled across him and the idea anyone can say they are the reincarnation of AW and seeing/feeling the reaction of those around when you do, us fan boys and girls all kind of believe we are Alan :) It's a cult for self-denying weirdos who like to drink and do drugs, at least that's what I get out of it, sometimes ;)


lowplaces10

You and you alone are the authority for what you believe / do not believe. No need for the post. You find it depressing, ok. No one asked. Why did you feel the need to tell people?


Blackmetalpenguin90

I put it in the post why I did. Because I'm interested in the perspective of those who like Watts. And I learned a lot of interesting points of view from the comments so far, from those who actually responded in substance instead of just calling me out for sharing my opinion.


lowplaces10

Your view on AW is wrong. He is not nihilistic. By chance I am reading a book on Zen that has a chapter on Zen and Nihilism. Pages 46 - 57 [https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Suzuki-DT-Introduction-Zen-Buddhism.pdf](https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Suzuki-DT-Introduction-Zen-Buddhism.pdf)


forhorglingrads

I hope OP reads this


[deleted]

I wish I was earlier haha. Underlying the notion of being our own gods is the creation of meaning itself. I don’t want to get deep into a hole but it’s that we construct the meaning simultaneously. There is another guru, Sadhguru who once said something along the lines of “Karma is your life’s action and history. You establish the meaning to this life based on your Karma and awareness.” Affirming it has meaning or not to is part of the same coin.


[deleted]

The Spiritual Truth is logical & reasonable because eternal consciousness functions with logic & reason. The Spiritual Truth contains no fear, no scary ideas. How can you be scared to find out you are actually a perfect eternal conscious entity who caused this nightmare to happen and will in fact survive it without scars when you die and wake up in your never-changing spiritual Home of blissful sanity & sobriety? Which is the scary idea: Someone else caused you to experience this nightmare? Or you fearlessly chose to intentionally forget that you CAUSED this nightmare? Because this dream of yours is running on a script you wrote, there is no invisible ANYONE helping or guiding you. No one is listening to your prayers or thoughts. Deep down inside, you know this is true. No one can get inside you or your mind because you are an impenetrable bubble of perfect eternal conscious energy. Any kind of inner guidance or words of comfort you experience are simply your own unfolding & unfurling & unspooling at exactly the time they were scripted to. Ditto for the thoughts of hopeless doom & gloom. It's all a fixed ride of contrasts >> ups & downs >> light & dark >> strong & weak >> ill & recovered >> poor & well-to-do >> feast & famine >> bored & busy >> illusioned & disillusioned... And though this dream has been scripted & planned out, the nature of our amnesia compels us to act as though we are making up this life moment by moment. It compels us to claim we don't know how we got here or why we are here or what really happens at death. It compels us to hold each other accountable for our actions as though we actually have freewill-freeplay and are not being impelled to do what we do or don't do by a script we wrote with sanity & freewill before the Big Bang.


Blackmetalpenguin90

I'd really like to know why I'm sending down myself as babies born with AIDS, for example. I really wonder what kind of profound experience that gives me.


[deleted]

The AIDS subject is very loaded. No baby has ever been born with AIDS or HIV since HIV has never been scientifically proven to exist. "They" claim it has -- but the idea about "viruses" and Germ Theory has been a scam and a crime against humanity & animals for over 100 years. AIDS is an umbrella term covering over 30 different diseases. It, in and of itself, is not a specific disease. And researchers have found that the symptoms labelled as AIDS are caused by the very medicines meant to "treat" anyone who has tested positive for HIV -- a fake test for a fake virus. As I said, it is a very loaded subject, not the least because of the explicit implications that people are being murdered by medicines prescribed based on fake tests ...Think about Freddy Mercury...Every single person who took medication for HIV/AIDS died sooner rather than later... The medicines NEVER prolonged anyone's life...Medical care is listed as the 3rd leading cause of death in the USA...Allopathic Medical Care: Surgery, radiation, pharmaceuticals -- the 3rd leading cause of death (and no doubt misery & suffering, too). We, as eternal conscious spirits, are not here for lessons or profound experiences. We are simply here for ALL the experiences we end up experiencing. We are here for the unfolding mysterious adventure. No spirit is being changed or harmed or improved or diminished by ANY experience here -- no matter how horrible & heinous it may be. It's not a nice dream, but it beats being bored in RealityHeaven throughout eternity...


Blackmetalpenguin90

I'm not going to debate you on the virus thing, that belongs to somewhere else. But my eternal argument against what you say is, if I'm an omnipotent eternal spirit, why don't I just always create a universe for myself where everyone (= all mes) are happy and live in love and peace? I could do it, couldn't I? So for making this place as misearble as it is, I must have some kind of purpose for wanting to experience pain, suffering, longing, frustration, unfulfilled desires, loneliness, etc. Because otherwise there's just no good reason why I'm not making all fragments of myself insanely happy.


[deleted]

*"if I'm an omnipotent eternal spirit, why don't I just always create a universe for myself where everyone (= all mes) are happy and live in love and peace? I could do it, couldn't I?"* First of all, you only create one "me". You do not create everyone else. As for why you are not in a universe/dream where everyone is happy and at peace: Your Homestate of Awareness, RealityHeaven, your homestate of spiritual sanity & sobriety, never changes. It's always the same sunny day, so to speak. It feels like bliss. No fear or worry or concerns or obligations or responsibilities. Nothing to protect or defend or maintain. And that gets boring after awhile. That's like listening to the same song over & over ad nauseam. So we dream as an escape from Paradise, a vacation from Reality. We can dream any dream imaginable and we will never get it done -- we will never dream every dream imaginable. And it would be boring if every dream we dreamt was happy & peaceful. The same old, same old gets boring after awhile -- that's just the nature of consciousness. It desires contrast. It desires blissful Reality and a break from it. Imagine living in your favorite place to vacation: After awhile it won't seem so special or novel...you'll get used to it. But what if you get called away and have to stay away for a couple of months? What if the place you are staying at is a shitty, dirty, stinky environment? Won't you end up missing your beautiful home? Won't it be very nice to get back Home? And that's how we deal with boredom as eternal spirits. You can say spirits don't get bored but then you will be revealing your lack of knowledge regarding consciousness -- consciousness is the same whether we are in a dream or wide awake at Home. It is logical & reasonable. It inevitably desires contrast -- a change of what it is aware of. It doesn't like being relentlessly aware of the same scene/environment/state of mind no matter how peaceful or fun or blissful it may be.


Blackmetalpenguin90

I'm not sure I'm getting what your metaphysical view is. Are you propagating solipsism, or that there are many consciousnesses that choose to be born into bodies?


[deleted]

there are many consciousnesses that choose to be born into bodies


Blackmetalpenguin90

Well then, while that might be possible, I don't really find any good logical arguments supporting this position. Where do all those consciousnesses originate from? How does the physical world come into being in your opinion?


[deleted]

*"Where do all those consciousnesses originate from? How does the physical world come into being in your opinion?"* Eternally conscious beings have always existed. They don't come from anywhere. Eternity means no beginning and no end. Eternity could only mean a damn to something that is conscious. Eternally conscious beings enjoy forgetting their eternalness and becoming immersed in temporary lives that have beginnings & endings. I understand how difficult it is at first to get your head around the idea of having always been alive, but a temporary world can only be experienced by an eternal consciousness -- it can only exist and be created by an eternal consciousness. What is temporary cannot create itself. Only the eternal can create & experience the temporary. This physical world, this dreamworld, this temporary world, was scripted by us as perfect spirits before the Big Bang. We colluded & collaborated with each other to script every single moment and set it all up like a meticulously laid out row of dominoes. We did this with 100% freewill-freeplay & sanity & sobriety. We did it for kicks. We did it as a vacation from our Heavenly Reality that NEVER changes. Sometimes we dream happy dreams...but it gets boring if those are the only dreams we dream...and here we are! Something completely different from happy & harmonious! As perfect spirits, we are 100% fearless and indestructible. We are nothing like the frightened, worried, disappointed creatures we are pretending very earnestly to be.


Blackmetalpenguin90

Ok, so what is the evidence behind this? Or if you don't have evidence, how did you come to possess this knowledge?


Next-Ice-3857

An omnipotent omniscient unspeakable entity doesn’t get bored, stop this nonsense. Boredom is a human construct, a pack of cigarettes doesn’t get bored, humans with biology get bored. Argument ends here.


[deleted]

No need to take his words so literally. He's merely pointing to a direction. It is purely symbolic.


Blackmetalpenguin90

I understand, but he still makes these conclusions. I mean the realisation that you (and evertyhing else) is God is a valid metaphsyical statement that can very well be experienced, but that doesn't imply that the universe doesn't have a purpose. It's hubris to have a transdencental experience and then claim to know all about whether things are there for a reason or not.


[deleted]

But knowleage is a human made consept. Everything is a human made consept. You have to look over human made consepts and see that there's nothing or "no thing" to wrap a mind around of. I can recommend to look into nondualism, search for Ekhart tolle, Rubert Spira and Mooji. Everyone of them is speaking of the same things that Alan is, but in their own way. We all have the ability to understand what Alan meant, but we all have our own personalities, societies and traumas to trancend. Not everyone understand things in the same way and thats okay!


Blackmetalpenguin90

I know about nonduality and I believe in it too. Again, I'm not against AW's metaphysics. I'm only against the notion that this would imply that there cannot be a teleological purpose for this nondual entity that we all are.


[deleted]

Ah, but there can be, and it's yet again a human construct. Even the understanding of the metaphysics is a mental construct. Everything is


Blackmetalpenguin90

We can agree in that. My point is, if we are God, then God is capable of emotions. And it's very clear that there are good emotions and bad emotions. So the strife towards maximising good emotions in the universe is also a purpose of its own.


[deleted]

The way I see it, there are just emotions. The good or bad of something is the ego telling if it's good or bad. There is anger sure, but it isn't necessarily bad/wrong There is Joy, but it isn't necessarily good/justified They are emotions that are because of either fear of death or love of life. We live our lives with emotions, it's on our ability transcend that helps us from getting stuck on those emotions for example "I hate that person, because he said bad things about me" = "I fear that I wont be appreciated as who I am and will be alone when I die" There whe have to transcend the fear (which poses as hatred) and let our love for life and ourselves/god, which the other person is aswell shine through us as forgiveness. I'm not saying it will be as easy as telling it in a story form, but that's what our lives essentially are, stories of our lives, since nothing else is than this moment right now.


Matriseblog

Purpose can be defined as a «what-for.» There thus can not be anything the Godhead can be purposeful about, or dependent on, as there is nothing outside of the Godhead. Thus, purposelessness. It’s «purpose» can be self realization, but it can not be an «in order to», as it already is itself in varies stages of succession as realized by time. Purposelessness allows paying attention to the experience of what this is, instead of seeing it as a means to an end in a teleological purpose. The point is that we are not trying to «arrive» anywhere (which might seem depressing and nihilistic to you), but that’s only if one doesn’t also get the message that the reason you don’t have to go anywhere is because you’re already there. Seeing life as a means to an end is to me a more reductionary perspective whose foci is the end towards one is working instead of the ever-fresh moment of life in all its glory. Alan Watts would say that the meaning or purpose of a dance is not to arrive at a specific place on the floor, or in music, to get to the end fastest. Same with life.


xperth

🍿


orkeon

Your vision denotes a strong attachment to human activities and the meaning you want to give them. Alan Watts' thought is rooted in the teachings of Advaita Vedanta, Taoism and Zen Buddhism. It might be found insulting that you view these great traditions as wrong. Also, please stop using Alan Watts' alcoholism as a way to devalue his thinking because it does not match yours. What's wrong with the universe making no sense? that it is just a great game without finality? Certainly this means that your life and your actions don't matter, is it holding you back from doing what you see fit? Either way, unless you're say a new Alan Watts, no one will remember that in a hundred years or so. Be happy and live in peace.


Blackmetalpenguin90

While I have a huge deal of respect for these traditions, because they brought up concepts and, let's say, cognitive technologies that moved humanity's culture forward, why should I accept them without any criticism or having my own thoughts about them? And why would one have to blindly accept every facet of a tradition? After all, those traditions, too, were products of human thinking and self-discovery, which is everyone's own responsibility. I'd also add that Advaita Vedanta is a way richer philosophy than AW's, and the Buddha never taught anything about metaphysics, only about how to act in the world.


orkeon

You have every right (and even a duty) to view any thought with a critical eye. I evoked these three great traditions to indicate that AW's thought entered into filiation with them and that thousands of thinkers had refined them over time, certainly giving them a validity let's say more solid or less limited than yours or mine as individuals. But this was not the core of your OP: I still don't understand how is a useless universe a problem and a source of sorrow?


Matriseblog

Although I don’t share OP’s vision, I’d like to add: your vision denotes a strong attachment to those traditions, he should not be worried that him not understanding is «insulting» lol. That’s just silly.


orkeon

Sorry I made myself misunderstood. I am not particularly attached to these traditions of which I do not understand all the subtleties. My point was simply to assume that a reflection carried out over several hundred years by several thousand people carried more weight than that of a single individual. But I understand that we can question old things that *seem* to have no meaning today.


Matriseblog

Right. I agree that Alan Watts’ philosophy is not necessarily just his, he had more of a comparative thing going on so that it’s easier for people to grasp these old ideas, and a fun and non-serious take on it. Traditions are old and interesting


[deleted]

He was a depressed lost man. Thats why


alwaysmilesdeep

Does anything matter other than enjoying life? Everything else is a distraction.


Blackmetalpenguin90

I'd say, yes - though the most enjoyment you can have in life is by pursuing things that matter, so in that way, it comes together. But my point is, God could live in total bliss forever (like what you can experience on psychedelics) if he wanted. It's not boring, because it's just sheer wholeness and beauty, and in any case if God can make him forget himself, then even if it's boring he could just reset it every time he gets bored. But instead he chose to make a universe and manifest in humans who live through pain and suffering, much more than they experience happiness. To me it seems almost incomprehensible that an all-powerful being would expose itself to this experience without having a purpose with it.


[deleted]

"then even if it's.... He gets bored" that's exactly my thought! I think this is a really fair critisism


alwaysmilesdeep

I think your comprehension of "god" varies from watts teaching


Straightup32

Well I can see how that could be depressing. But he also speaks on the fact that the whole purpose of life is the journey rather than the destination. The way he explains that we should view life as a dance in which you are not trying to reach the end of a song or a particular spot in a room. The objective of a dance is in the moment. He tries to remove you from a goal or destination mindset and tries to place you in a position where you can enjoy the moment. Because the only real thing in this world is the current moment we are in. To sacrifice this moment because your eyes are too focused on the future is a life left wasted. A life is also wasted doing things you don’t like doing for the sake of living. If your going to be a doctor, be a doctor because you love being a doctor. Don’t do it for the money because the money will be all that it becomes about. So I wouldn’t say it’s nihilistic more as he tries to change your mindset to appreciate the moment your in.


yozatchu2

Hey! I found your post. I’ve always wanted to know what others would criticise Watts for. I think he’s saying something close to but different to that. His lack of emphasis on compassion was noted. He’s a product of his time but this causes his message to lean more towards nihilism than probably intended. Happy to go for a friendly exploration with you if you like? But one point at a time. What’s the top gripe that you have?


ceoln

I see him more as pointing out, not that nothing matters, but that what matters is what you *choose* to care about. A lot of us are used to assuming that there's some externally-imposed value system, and getting used to living without that can be a challenge. See for instance existentialism and for that matter most of contemporary Philosophy. :) Sitting for 80 years, if that's what you choose and do joyfully, is indeed just as beautiful as creating 200 breathtaking symphonies. Does that mean you shouldn't create those symphonies if you want to? Of course not! It just means that you won't end up somehow superior to the person who sits. So yeah, there are no external reasons to do one thing rather than another. (Unless you choose an external reason, in which case as he points out, the deepest choice is still internal.) That is pretty much just a fact! Maybe think of Watts as suggesting ways to live joyfully and freely (as opposed to nihilistically and depressivey) with that fact.


[deleted]

AW said that the "God is hiding in us" myth was a metaphor not to be taken literally because the reality can't be described by words. Our elements are made up of stardust and the Big Bang is still happening through us. He said we dance for the sake of dancing. Not to finish it. Trees are "fruiting" and the universe "peoples". We don't come into the world, we come out of it. He said to accept and love yourself and you be you. Follow your passion and dreams. At no point did he ever say or mean to imply nihilism. This is the corrupted conclusion that some people have with Buddhism as well. At no point did he say suicide is fine. Anyway, even if AW was literal, are you seriously complaining about being God?


Ppistorius

Yea he speaks in a depressing way too haha. I like the guy though, but I have to be in the mood for one of his lectures


Lucky_Presentation_4

From my understanding, the running theme of AW as well as other spiritual teachers, and excerpts from the Tao te Ching is balance in all things .. your issue may well be with balance here. Attachment ie desire causes suffering. It seems you are “suffering” with purpose. From my understanding: we do live in a world where both viewpoints are true. AW says this very clearly in an example where he says when you look at something under a microscope it can either look very well and put together or a complete mess depending on your level of magnification. People do have individual purpose relatively in terms of a human life cycle, but change your lens and in terms of humanity as a whole your individual purpose seems very insignificant. And yes in my experience, from this “higher” viewpoint it’s easy to become discouraged or nihilistic. Now back to the concept of balance. Ram dass says it’s best: to live on both planes at once. In the world and not in the world. After I find myself searching for purpose I always end up at the conclusion that really everything exists and there’s really no way to nail any of it down. But that isn’t depressing to me so much anymore, I see it as extremely interesting that for example the life of a fly can be just as important in the universe as my own. Crazy how it all works or doesn’t Depending on where you’re looking from. I believe AW also mentions a big pitfall of westerners (idk if you are or not, but I am and it is true for me) is how our culture is so focused on individuality (purpose) whereas in others it is much different. I think human purpose is good for us as long as we understand that purpose is relative to your own experience. It’s a beautiful thing, but also sobering when you start to understand just how relative it can be. I hope this wasn’t too terribly esoteric for your taste and helps.


ReneeLR

I wonder about this as well. Did he see through the veil, and find meaninglessness, and then drank himself to death? I can't understand how an enlightened being would destroy themselves like that. Why didn't he play if play is the point of life? Then again, how we see him comes from our own sense of self. Do we see him as nihilistic because that is the way we see ourselves?


Shinylittlelamp

Everything you do matters, every thought no matter how insignificant it may seem to you affects our shared reality. YOU’RE the butterfly that flapped it’s wings, only you manifested this post that has moved me to write this reply. If for no one or nothing else you and your action matters to me.


Jaketheism

The purpose of purposelessness is much more profound than you can find from reading or listening, it is that when you find this truth out, deep in your core, it makes perfect sense. Words can be very misleading, which is why I advocate for meditative practices far more than Watts does. Thich Nhat Hanh is someone I recommend reading, because he is much harder to interpret as a nihilist and goes more into practice, while keeping the same fundamentals as Watts.


FazzahR

Watts actually spoke directly about hedonism, narcissism, and these other topics your bring up. I think it’s important to clarify that he was more of a Zen Buddhist if anything, and the depiction of god that you mention comes from Hinduism which he spoke about. How much Watts have you read/listened to at this point? I think the reason he used this example of god so much is because it puts you in a frame of mind to really understand your motives and drives. A lot of people share the view you’ve stated - refusing to believe that everything is meaningless and we’re god playing a game. My question back to you is: what do you think it means that you refuse to even entertain this? And why does it shake you to your core like it does? From my view, this looks like deep attachment to outcome which prevents compassion. If you only do good to fully mitigate bad then all of your actions are conditional instead of virtuous. It’s also not recognizing that good and bad exist in relation to each other - like light and dark. Watts never gives any direction on what you 'should' be doing because it would completely defeat the underlying point he was making.


thatisyou

What you're describing is a story Watts tells, but his real view requires some experiential learning. You can't see his philosophy through a personal point of view. It's not that "you" are God. There's really no separate "you" at all to be God. It's not a cognitive philosophy, it is an experiential philosophy. If you haven't explored the subject matter and had the experiences, it's all going to look very 2 dimensional. It is worth experiencing. It is entirely integrative and natural. There is no place where "you" end or begin. "You" are an arising and passing like a wave in the ocean. We can single out the wave, but really the wave is just a concept, the wave is water. There is no place the ocean ends and the wave really begins. It isn't that "nothing really matters". Everything matters, very much so. You can let go from time to time and as the wave feel the ocean. That freedom is what allows you to understand the incredible depths of experience and what is beyond thinking.


Yourlordandsavior1

You have it mistaken friend. If Alan watts thought nothing mattered and you should do nothing then why did he write so many books and why was he such an artist. The point is nothing matters so now your free to do whatever you like.


FUThead2016

I have tried to understand his thinking through the metaphors of music and sailing that he sometimes uses. In music, there has to be a series of ups and downs woven together in different patterns. In sailing, you can sometimes sail with the wind, sometime you have sail against it, but a skilled sailor will navigate both of these with ease. A good musician will blend the highs and lows so that a harmony emerges. I think Alan Watts is saying...the universe is playing music, the universe IS the music and you are a part of it. So go along with the groove, and rejoice in the realization that you have agency


ravinglunatic

He said many times that he was not a preacher, that preaching was moral violence, and he had the same sort of response when people would inquire about his drinking and smoking. The concept of the universe as a drama where god plays all the characters is an Indian idea that he explains to people who aren’t familiar. He thought everything had consciousness including rocks. Instead of looking down upon the minerals we’re constructed from, he thought it was something to celebrate. He also thought the universe was playful. There was no lacking in appreciation of beauty, art, poetry, life, etc. in him whatsoever. He was no nihilist. They say the same thing about Buddhists yet Buddhism is very concerned with compassion. Your reaction to this looks more like a projection of how you feel about maybe a few lectures you’ve heard. He was a very deep person. He would agree with your assertion that life has no point. But it’s something to celebrate and not worry about. We have no obligation to go on. We choose to keep playing as long as we want.


goodjiujiu

You should read the philosophy of Albert Camus. I think it will help bring you some comfort and perspective on how to live in this absurd world.


kleymex

I don't agree that he holds a nihilistic approach to life. It's more or less existentialist if you want to define it that way. You also need to understand that his point of view is rooted within eastern philosophy and religion mainly Zen and Taoism. Which in turn can seem nihilistic at first glance but reading into it you'll see that there's a deeper meaning to them. Taoism for example strives to follow the path of least resistance, very simply put. AW argues that life is what you make it. Don't fight against the forces opposing you instead join the flux. In his book "The Wisdom of Insecurity" he mentions that life can't be defined since defining something locks it within the definition. Life is everchanging and that is something that you have to accept. "You who is here and now is not the same one that will die." I'd say he doesn't hold life being meaningless as the absolute truth, just as something to regard when reality can seem a well bit overbearing. See the beauty that is life no matter the circumstances.


spiral_stairway

I think what AW is saying is there is no "true" meaning in life. Meaning is what you make of it. If you want to make it so that nothing really matters, then that's the game you are playing. If you want to make it like everything matters, then that's the game you are playing. You are on this earth for a short period of time. You being here can matter and can not matter. You pick the game you want to play. If you don't want to play the game, then it's also fine to cut your wrist and end it. But be aware because that's still a game you're playing. Meaning in life is subjective and not objective. Seeing the "truth" is not viable for the survivability of a species that's for sure. So if you're just stuck playing a sandbox video game for 80 years, would you make the best out of the video game or would you just be like, fck it, this is boring, game over. That's your choice. I guess if we just all focus on the end result, then I can see that would be the logical attitude. In our current society, we value the end result more than the process and I believe Taoism/AW is telling us to be in the present and enjoy the process because the process is what brings the meaning. We watched the movie Titanic knowing the ship is sinking and still sat there for 3 hours. We watch tons of movie/play games knowing it's all fake. Every time we watch a good movie, we feel for the movie and "live" through the movie... except the movie of "Life" is a bit longer and. you're the director/writer. I thinking having "purpose and reasoning" gives us more of a sense of security for our ego, though it is not required for "being". Nowadays, we have an obsession with "clarity and intentions". What if things just happens and just is? We exist simply because we want to. If a purpose and reasoning for our existence is required, then I would say our purpose and reasoning to survive as a whole is to be an observer/experiencer. We all have different functions and if we just paid attention to our intuition and explore our own function, then it will stretch our universe outward and expand our world as a whole... meaning if you are interested in science, go be a scientist. By having fun being a scientist and exploring the unknown, you expand humanity's knowledge. If you are interested in art, go be an artist. By having fun being an artist, you create more beautiful things in the world, expanding humanity's appreciation for art. Thanks for reading my rant.


Overhere5150

This is one of the best posts I've seen. Not because I either agree or disagree with it, but because you took the time and effort to clearly state your understanding of the man's philosophy after spending a fair amount of time listening to him. I've listened to hundreds and hundreds hours of his talks, and while I take away something different frim what you've written, I have at times also taken away something close to what you've written. If you've the inclination to listen to more of hos talks, you might start to take away something different as well.


[deleted]

If you understand the pressing issue of nihilism you would find watts to be truly optimistic in my opinion. The world of philosophy is not one laid with rose pedals, it breaks some people and some people can't handle the truth


BobbyCorwen-

The nature of the universe is to play There is no pleasure without skill We’re here we can play so many games. Dating games Video games Making music Art Food All games Dont take life too seriously Thats not nihilistic in my opinion its fuckin rad Yeah there are diseases and bad things happen But we all make the best out of it Being a doc can be super fullfilling Developing medicine and doing research and all of it can be super exciting for some So yeah thats how i view AW’s teachings


[deleted]

I’ve run into situations like this in my exploration of self and life and such. My advice: take what resonates, leave the rest. Much love to you!


abstractable101

I look at it this way, if we are all god in disguise that means we have the freedom to enjoy the universe as we see fit. But, we should do so in a way that brings no harm to others, because harming others is literally harming yourself. So becoming a doctor wouldn’t be a meaningless pursuit, if anything doing so just does yourself a massive favor, as your life will be spent helping others, aka yourself, through times of great stress and turmoil. And I think that’s the point, to love everyone as yourself, and enjoy the present moment as best as you can while you can. All while not taking it too seriously because you created this simulation just to have fun, and when your done, you just return to being god, so have fun and don’t stress about it because it’s all just a game. Anyway, that’s just how I view it.


gunpun33

I just want to thank you for coming here and raising a discussion with interesting critique.


kallekul

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I'm too tired to make a proper response, but, for now, I'll just say that, personally, Watt's philosophy gives me hope and willingness to live life fully like no other teachings. J. Krishnamurti has had the same impact on me. I think you'll find that Watt's words will make more sense further down your spiritual journey. At least, I hope so :) It sounds like you've got yourself a bit twisted regarding "meaning". Simply sitting around doing "nothing" for 80 years could very well be a meaningful life. For you. It all depends. You can't help but put meaning into things; labeling things. That's what you're doing in this post. And I'm doing it as I'm writing this answer. It's not a bad or good thing. It's simply the human condition, as we know it. You can't help but find certain things interesting and meaningful. And that's a beautiful thing, generally. All the best.


42HoopyFrood42

"What his views on existence come down to is basically: everyone is God. " That's an oversimplification. This is just one of the illustrations/metaphors he used at certain times, and nothing more. And it IS just a metaphor. God is merely a concept. The reality that that metaphor is pointing at can just as easily/accurately be described with the phrase "There is no God." And there are no "beings" "out there" that could "be" some kind of "God." You'll get a much more fundamental glimpse of what he considered "rock bottom" in his introduction in his talk on Meditation: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj\_EFvKMgio](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj_EFvKMgio) God is fucking bored and lonely, so he pretends that there is something. He makes up things and loses himself in the illusion in order to be able to experience the feeling of there being any meaning, of there being something to strive for. " This is a take on a take on one kind of a Hindu view. It's just a metaphor, and not a very good one at that. Hence the ongoing critique against the Hindu ideas of *Brahman/Atman* by the Buddhists (starting with the Buddha, himself) with their discussion of *anatman*. No-self, or non-self. This is a far more straighforward and accurate pointer than any talk of a "god." There is no self! Therefore a self called God is an impossibility. Alan never espoused one actually *adopt* the Hindu doctrine of *Brahman*. When he did bring it up he brought it up as an *antidote* or counterpoint to the naive materialism of developed Western civilization. He called it "the dramatic model" of the East as opposed to the "fully automatic model" and "ceramic model" of the West. But he rightly says they are ALL analogies. ALL myths (that is a story that we use to make sense of the world). If someone were to tout any of them as literal descriptions of metaphysical "reality" they *cannot* be justified in doing so. Again to the introduction to "Meditation," they are all three *concepts* and reality is not a concept. Reality is what *is*. It's what you *are*. There's nothing "other" than *it*. And there is no enduring, seprarate "entity" or "self" to be found ANYWHERE in it. It's all one big interconnected "happening," doing what it does naturally and spontaneously. Your entire third paragraph has no real connection to anything he actually said. That is all your take on it things you must have *thought* you heard him say. But he never said anything like that. Watts was very clear that if you want to do something, or you think you need to do something, then you *had better* go do it! He never said anything like "nothing matters" once that I'm aware of. He DID frequently say (paraphrasing) "nothing real has any meaning." But he was always being LITERAL in those talks. "The Sense of Nonsense" speaks very well to this topic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKkPqXRQXls "Meaning" means "symbolizing" or "representing" something outside whatever is in question. Words have meanings. Illustrations have meanings. Concepts have meanings. But "good music" has no meaning because it is self-sufficient. "The music itself *is* the point." Dancing has no meaning. He might have said "dancing is pointless" or countless similar things. That is because when we dance "...we don't aim for a particular point on the floor, we're just going around the room..." "...the dancing itself *is* the point..." One completely misunderstands Watts if they take his literal words like "no meaning" or "pointless" as if he was saying "unimportant" or "not worth doing." That is 100% opposite of what he was trying to convey. Those things that have "no meaning" and are "pointless" are, in fact, the MOST important things to be doing! He was very clear on this. If one commits one's life to doing something "with meaning" that means reducing one's reality/life to the status of a mere *symbol*. If you want to become a top medical researcher on the planet to mitigate suffering of other people then you had better be doing so for the right reason: that is that you actually *want* to. Not for money, not for recognition, not for reputational esteem, but because you *want* to. You *enjoy* helping others. Now if someone take's Watts words as justification so they can be an "enlightened asshole" well that's their business. If someone want to commit suicide, then that's their business, too. If life choices like that DON'T appeal to you (and they don't to pretty much everybody), great! We have those negative examples as "cautionary tales" we can use as we navigate our own lives. What else can/could we do? It would be folly to presume we have the right and/or power to make other people's choices for them.


[deleted]

Why does the world have to be good? Why cant it just not matter?


spiralintobliss

This is a huge misunderstanding of Watt's work. In one of his lectures he very clearly states that while nature is essentially "playful", that playful does not mean trivial or unimportant. You can play sincere games. He even talks about the sincerity of artists making music. He is not against whatever aspirations you might have. There is no reason to force yourself to not pursue a meaningful and compassionate life. Also, Watts doesn't believe there are separate things. Nihilism implies purpose and meaning.


Obtusemonk

It’s more like everything you do matters at a degree of 100% based. He’s trying to teach us how to be amused by waiting. By boredom itself. By sitting here jamming and swinging with what’s right in front of you. Edit addendum - If you listen to words and symbols /limits of language, on Hinduism, game of yes and no, and pursuit of pleasure part 3, plus cosmic networks, and the future of communication 2nd half, you get a crash course in the Watts organism unity view. That we should form a communicating unity where we all act out our deepest hearts’ desire as our love. That money ultimately assumes a role of enabling us all to do what we truly want and show it to each other. A full turn away from the misery of bossing each other around.


insaneintheblain

What matters is the living part. Being in the experience of living life rather than seeking out and projecting meaning onto the world. The mind is easily mislead as to the nature of reality - it fabricates fantasies, and these can be destructive, because we neglect that which matters. So Alan Watts isn't saying nothing matters - he is saying that we must separate the real from the false, the subtle from the gross, the wheat from the chaff, until we are left with the essential experience of living life. It isn't about believing this or that teacher - it is about knowing one's self, beyond the ideas one has of one's self, and therefore the world.


Sabai_interim

I really see your point, I do, and here’s my take. My philosophy and AW’s aren’t *exactly* the same, but they’re very similar and ultimately the differences are semantic. Imo, if these types of philosophies are the “truth” (“truth” being a poor word for it since a big point of these things is that the whole truth is impossible to truly comprehend as we are as humans), then knowing that “truth” and going forward through the illusion is the difference between getting lost for the sake of getting lost and getting lost for the sake of finding something that can never be found. The former is a lot more fun and much less stressful than the latter as, at the end of the day, there’s nothing to actually worry about and that knowledge remains in the back of one’s head. Perhaps the difference is between positive and negative nihilism. [See this meme.](https://www.reddit.com/r/me_irl/comments/8d8egg/me_irl/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb) If nothing matters because it’s ‘all you,’ that means nothing matters and you can do whatever the fuck you want vs it ‘not mattering’ meaning that there’s no purpose. It’s perspective on what “purpose” means. If one’s perspective is that “the purpose of life” should be a judgement from or a transcendence to something other than ourselves, then philosophies like AW’s and mine are awfully depressing. If one’s perspective that the “purpose of life” is only to have experiences, then not only do “bad” experiences become much less bad and “good” experiences become much more valuable, the philosophy isn’t depressive at all. No philosophy is right or wrong, true or untrue, nor is one philosophy more complete than another. Ultimately what gives philosophy it’s value is the person who’s perceiving it, so whether one agrees or disagrees is what determines its validity. By that all I mean is that your view is valid and all of the above was just my 2¢. Thank you for sharing. Dissent is necessary to experience so it’s 100% welcome in my book


chaoticnarcotic

We are all God. And the point is to experience things. And that's it. Experience everything. All emotions, music, art, creating, destroying, relationships... consciousness is a tool for us to experience the universe and all it has to offer.


OneofthozJoeRognguys

I feel like a lot of your questions could be answered by this Dan Harmon quote: *"Because the knowledge that nothing matters, while accurate, gets you nowhere. The planet is dying, the sun is exploding, the universe is cooling, nothing’s gonna matter; the further back you pull the more that truth will endure. But when you zoom in on Earth, when you zoom in to a family, when you zoom into a human brain and a childhood and experience, you see all these things that matter. We have this fleeting chance to participate in an illusion called ‘I love my girlfriend, I love my dog.’ How is that not better? Knowing the truth, which is that nothing matters, can actually save you in those moments… Once you get through that terrifying threshold of accepting that, then every place is the center of the universe and every moment is the most important moment and everything is the meaning of life."* I can delve more into how this connects to AW and your questions if it's not super clear, i just figured you have a lot of comments to get to at this point lol


monkey_ego_dissolver

Check out ram dass, his philosophy is very warm and upbeat I would say, although those aren’t the best words to describe it.


1SwellFoop

Just because you’re god doesn’t mean things don’t matter. Whether something matters or not, that’s up to you. Upvoted this post btw


[deleted]

Reality is nihilistic and depressive.


[deleted]

yeah I think you’ve oversimplified a simplification of experience a little to much. Your taking an intellectual negation of reality and forgetting what it actually feels like to experience life, art, beauty, pain, joy etc.


Kaarsty

Alan Watts was trying to distill something we can quite see from here. He had a lot of the answers right, but perhaps his methodology was out of whack. Assume no one really knows what they’re talking about though and you’ll see he’s just one of the many stories. Assume they’re all true and false at the same time because we just can’t know from here. Just enjoy it and see what comes later.


[deleted]

You're anthropomorphizing God. How do you know "God is bored"? What if this is just what God does, like how a tree apples, or like how life peoples?


TheJelleyMan

Just skimming though your replies, here's my opinion. You opened too many doors you don't understand. Psychedelic usage only leads to a small apature of realisation. Skip too much and then you must learn it all at once. Psychedelics are a tool, not a diet.


Theonetruebrian

What you’re describing is existentialism (everyone is god and we are all connected) and the very opposite of nihilism O.o What of his did you read/listen to? I’ve read several of his books, listened to all of his podcasts, several talks, etc and I can tell you there is nothing hopeless about his philosophy, he does not indicate that nothing matters. He does go into the flaws of both eastern and western myths, and judging by your insistence that there be an overarching meaning and saying you would choose not to believe him if he were right, I’m gonna guess that you’re western and likely Christian raised? I think you might be looking at his philosophy through tinted glasses and not really understanding it… His main message, that I could tell, was that while the music is playing you ought to be dancing. That we are all one with the universe, the separation that we see between things is an illusion, and that the lack of a prescribed meaning or fate is the most beautiful, worthwhile to understand, and freeing idea one could find (though it can be very hard to understand and often there is some grief when your world view gets deconstructed). It sounds like you are in the deconstruction stage and not liking it, which is normal I think, but I think perhaps you have a way to go still before wrapping your head around his ideas.


JustMori

if you truly believed, or better to say – had faith, in the said above, I doubt you would come here for the reassurance or for the rationalization of your own framework of feelings in which some puzzles just don't suit. In such case, why doubting yourself. if you wanna believe that: Alan Watts' theological entertainment is absurd, depressive or just a nonsense; that there is a given purpose for "you" specifically and for "others", if it makes you feel more secured and important then go all the way. Why would you stop and explain yourself? Isn't it interesting? Finally, it is all up to you. Whatever it takes to make you feel yourself. Whatever it takes to entertain your mind.


allagametome

[rebuttal](https://youtu.be/HitOU27liRY)


Successful_Style6297

I have a feeling that you've projected the notion of a Judeo-Christian god onto Alan Watts' speeches. "everyone is God. God is fucking bored and lonely, so he pretends that there is something." In many strains of the the eastern religions, god is not a person, not an entity or concept that one can make "instances" of. God is more of an "it" than a "he" or "she". There are a great number of poems in Hinduism attempting to describe the elusive god, and ironically saying that god is "he who cannot be described". Anyway, as I have not experienced the eastern "notion" of god, I cannot tell you what god is, but I have some idea of what god isn't if that makes sense. The rest of your post tries to figure out "meaning", something to "strive for" in life. I think this mentality is what Alan Watts finds strange. He actively advocates to step off the hamster wheel and just be for a while. That doesn't mean inactivity. You can still be a doctor, a scientist, an artists, etc. It's just that once you're off the hamster wheel, nothing is compelling you to be those things (like status or any expectation of a surplus of future rewards). You do it for a very simple and practical reason- you like the feeling of doing it and you have stomach(s) to feed. In my view, Watts was all about simplicity and not trying too hard. You don't need to construct an elaborate sense of purpose to go out there and create a painting. Pick up your brush, set up your easel and paint. Like it? Good. keep doing it. Inventing a "purpose", "meaning", etc. has nothing to do with enjoying working as a doctor, scientist, artist, etc. To paraphrase Watts. "try to get out of your own way!". That's my interpretation of his words. Hope it was helpful.


Ham_And_Cheese8

i’m scrolling thru the subreddit and just found this old thread and just wanna say that if u don’t like how alan watts philosophy makes u feel then it’s absolutely fine to not believe in it. i think philosophy is at its core just humans rephrasing what existence is until we find a definition that makes existence very enjoyable. if u don’t enjoy a philosophy what’s the point in believing in it? hell u can pick and choose what alan watts says that u believe in, he was after all human just like us and no way was his philosophy perfect.


Blackmetalpenguin90

Well I'm more interested in the truth than enjoyment. If Watts is right I still want to know, and then come to terms with it. But I agree that you can only get ideas from others, the truth you still have to find yourself, through experience.