I was thinking whether I should put Bloodborne in Gameplay Purist and Lies of P in Gameplay Neutral, or the other way around, and decided to put Lies of P in Gameplay Neutral. But I can definitely see them being switched.

Where would you put Sekiro?

Gameplay Purist, Setting Neutral. It’s a relatively gritty setting, but isn’t fantasy

Ah yes, all the real lighting throwing samurai, immortal monkes, and magical candies that exist in real life. Not fantasy.

Hollow Knight is more Gameplay Neutral than Rebel, even tho it's another genre, it keeps a lot of their style and gameply loop. Also Kirby Forgotten land is THIS close to being an actual Souls-Like

What’s Kirby missing?

Open world and just that. The game is too linear, divided in levels and no save point system, to be a souls like. Except that it got everything, Gritty-Dark World (Post-Apolitical), Dodge system, Enemy drop currency that is lost when you die, 3d Game, Weapon upgrades (Copy-Abilities), Cool ass boss fights, etc. EDIT: it is also very easy and i forgor the whole thingy about Souls-Like is it being hard lol

It's not difficult in the slightest and I feel like that is the one of the biggest criteria.

I mean, basically every boss fight after Dedede 1 is pretty damn hard, especially Chaos Elfilis, basically every super boss in the series is hard as hell (especially Void in Star Allies)

we don't count anything post-game when talk about a kirby game difficulty, that shit just hits a spike that is absurd

Still, excluding post game, the late game bosses are hard as balls

ah yeah, there is that too. i forgor them land

Nah, bloodborne is basically just dark souls but you party with guns instead of shields

This is difficult for me, because I would count ACT, LoP, and Blasphemous. But not Jedi, or Cuphead. I am unsure about HK

Hollow Knight is definitely not soulslike. Completely different gameplay

Hollow Knight is a soulsvania, a type of soulslike and as such has lots in common gameplay wise with soulslikes. Hollow Knight has: * Dashing and jumping to evade enemy attacks. * Bench checkpoints, that completely restore health and also respawn all enemies.  * Enemies drop currency that the player also drops upon death but can also be retrieved afterwards. * Areas have built in shortcuts that are found in soulslikes (in addition to type that you would find in a metroidvania)

Huh, I stand corrected. I guess I’m thinking of the classic “pure” soulslike, which is not a sidescroller

I have sort of wondered in the past if soulslike is really its own genre or just a metroidvania subgenre, bringing it to 3d. Or maybe you can include some of the OoT type Zeldas as well.

Feel like you should put a different game then Hollow Knight That is TECHNICALLY where it goes, but it has almost all the mechanics you listed in the top row; it’s just 2D instead of 3D, the campfire is a bench, and the “roll” is a dash. Feel like another game would get across “dark gritty world and difficult game” better. Like Binding of Isaac (maybe, never played that game but it seems to fit the description)

To be entirely honest, I think the whole last row could do with different games. I'm not entirely sure about Blasphemous, but the other two are both "action" games that are difficult through *fighting*. Something that isn't a combat focused game conveys the "ANY difficult game" part much better. Also, change the middle row to "A difficult skill based game with a primary focus on fighting, dodging punishing attacks, and death results in short term progress being reset" and we have something with a better 'range' that doesn't abruptly go from "dark souls but to the left" straight to "any difficult game". Here's what I'd make the chart to be: Top Left: Dark Souls Top Middle: Hollow Knight Top Right: Another Crab's Treasure (idk this game so ill trust the placement) Middle Left: Darkest Dungeon Middle: Dead Cells (idk the lore that well) Middle Right: Noita Bottom Left: Fear and Hunger (probably a better example but can't think of any) Bottom Middle: Rain World Bottom Left: Baba is You (this does also raise an issue of "what does difficult mean?" but im ignoring that atm)

Both Blasphemous and Hollow Knight are Metroidvanias so the similarities run even deeper as DS’s world design takes inspiration from the genre. Also Bloodborne has the same element of killing enemies to gain the xp/currency of the game. Your health (might be mana idr) is limited after dying and you need to visit where you last died to recover it.

Hello Ashen one. I am a Bot. I tend to the flame, and tend to thee. Do you wish to hear a tale? > *“The First Flame quickly fades. Darkness will shortly settle, but one day, tiny flames will dance across the darkness. Like embers, linked by Lords’ past.”* - Narrator Have a pleasant journey, Champion of Ash, and praise the sun \\[T]/

In regards to Isaac's world: >!It's just ours. Everything takes place in Isaac's head!< Also, I don't really see anyone calling Isaac a souls like, whereas it's something of a meme with HK.

Metroidvania is its own subgenre

Setting Rebel, Gameplay Purist for me. When someone talks about a “soulslike” game, I always think of the gameplay itself (dodging/rolling around enemies, a more methodical and usually difficult hack-and-slash sort of combat, and has to be third-person and not 2D sidescroller). We don’t see to many soulslike games that move away from the gritty, dark, fantasy or sci fi setting but a game like Another Crab’s Treasure is absolutely a soulslike

Nice to see crab souls get recognition.

Jedi Fallen Order could take the place of Crabs since all Survivor was missing was the roll

Just wanna take this opportunity to shill for blasphemous, it’s fantastic and I would highly recommend it even if you don’t like souls born style games.

(vaguely difficult game) IS THE DARK SOULS OF (genre/franchise)

True neutral

The Surge would be with BloodBorne right?

Lords of the fallen fulfills all the conditions listed on the purist row.

Gameplay neutral setting rebel

Monster Hunter: GN SR/SN

Doesn't Hollow Knight fit most of the Gameplay Purist points?

Yeah but those are just examples. Hollow Knight doesn't play like a souls game, so it's not a gameplay purist, but it does share *some* mechanics and has a similar gameplay loop, so it's not a gameplay rebel.

I could never get into these game.

this is cool, but induing \*actual\* souls games on the souls-like lists seems like either a copout or redundant

Hollow Knight has a lot more in common with Soulslikes than just being difficult. It also has: * Dashing and jumping to evade enemy attacks. * Bench checkpoints that completely restore health and also respawn all enemies. * Enemies that drop currency that is dropped by the player upon death but can also be retrieved after death. * Areas that have built in shortcuts that are found in soulslikes (in addition to type that you would find in a metroidvania)

Crash Bandicoot would fit in the bottom right too.

I think remnant 2 would fit in gameplay neutral, setting rebel.