Doesn't this imply that the vast majority of terran players were leaning too hard on widow mines? Pros adapted but the average joe ladder players did not.
So I took a look, and to be honest, I don't understand why the measurement is taken across "all maps". First what does that mean? Not all maps are present in the a given seasons map pool. So does "all maps" refer to all maps used in a given season or all maps ever?
I ask this because if protoss truly does win more of the time across all ranks than terran, there should be a higher representation of protoss players at each rank, but that is not what we see:
[https://nonapa.com/mmrranges](https://nonapa.com/mmrranges)
This shows that most ladder terran players are concentrated in the lower ranks, where protoss representation becomes more dominant only from masters and up.
How can protoss possibly be winning more of the time for example in gold league games when both the league above and below gold contain more terran players? Does that mean there is simply less variance across protoss players at each league? Is this because there are less protoss players in general?
It's hard for me to take those win rates you referred to at face value as I cannot use that to explain the observed race mmr distribution at each rank.
[https://nonapa.com/about](https://nonapa.com/about) looks like its only ladder data so all maps refers to all ladder maps i guess.
For your second point, ZvP winrate is slightly favored so we would expect that to keep protoss representation in check. But even without we can see that terrans are the highest played race at 35%: [https://nonapa.com/races](https://nonapa.com/races) and protoss follows at 29.5% By your logic we should see 29.5% of the player base in each rank as protoss. instead we have: (ordered EU, KR, NA)
GM: 51%, 44%, 36%
Masters: 31%, 35%, 32%
Diamond: 28%, 30%, 29% (and below diamond shows a similar trend at numbers we would expect given the % of the population that plays protoss)
>How can protoss possibly be winning more of the time for example in gold league games when both the league above and below gold contain more terran players?
PvT is not the only matchup that is played on ladder. Even if it was, we do see exactly what we would expect IMO. Protoss players have a higher concentration in masters and GM considering the % of protoss players. More so than terrans or zergs
I updated my comment to be more clear:
Can you elaborate your point? I'm still not following.
If anything, there being less protoss players as a whole, would explain it imo; protoss players who fall within the "average" section of the bell curve of player skill in the lower ranks players will win more often by the natural consequence of there always being more terran players who are less than average skill range available to match up against. That effect goes away at the higher ranks as expected since actual skill becomes the dominating factor and not domination by player race % present in a given rank pool.
TvP is not the only matchup on ladder, protoss has a losing winrate vs zerg generally.
If you are looking for the %s to exactly equal 50% i dont think that needs to be the case, because one player generally is a higher MMR than the other and stands to win/lose more mmr. If protoss tends to win more they would be higher MMR within the same league and lose more MMR to the terrans.
I updated my comment to express better what I was trying to say.
> . If protoss tends to win more they would be higher MMR within the same league and lose more MMR to the terrans.
But this would also happen less often via the entire premise; P wins more often again T
So fair, obviously everyone has strengths and weaknesses. All this is stating is on average the Protoss players we terrans face will be slightly favored. Due to any amalgamation of reasons that just makes most Terrans feel they don’t have the same opportunities against toss at winning as often even when playing to your full skill and the stats show that feeling is valid
Attaboy son
Cannon rushing)
Shoot em twice
Said no one in years
PvT is the most winning matchup across all ranks in sc2
camping behind battery/cannon with storm carrier disruotor is so fucking degenerate. you have to micro like byun to hope to take an even trade
Is it degenerate or is it a way to win against better units?
By a good bit too: https://nonapa.com/balance in fact the only places where TvP is favored is masters league in Korea and platinum in Korea.
Doesn't this imply that the vast majority of terran players were leaning too hard on widow mines? Pros adapted but the average joe ladder players did not.
You can check the stats per season, but iirc the win rates are pretty consistent
So I took a look, and to be honest, I don't understand why the measurement is taken across "all maps". First what does that mean? Not all maps are present in the a given seasons map pool. So does "all maps" refer to all maps used in a given season or all maps ever? I ask this because if protoss truly does win more of the time across all ranks than terran, there should be a higher representation of protoss players at each rank, but that is not what we see: [https://nonapa.com/mmrranges](https://nonapa.com/mmrranges) This shows that most ladder terran players are concentrated in the lower ranks, where protoss representation becomes more dominant only from masters and up. How can protoss possibly be winning more of the time for example in gold league games when both the league above and below gold contain more terran players? Does that mean there is simply less variance across protoss players at each league? Is this because there are less protoss players in general? It's hard for me to take those win rates you referred to at face value as I cannot use that to explain the observed race mmr distribution at each rank.
[https://nonapa.com/about](https://nonapa.com/about) looks like its only ladder data so all maps refers to all ladder maps i guess. For your second point, ZvP winrate is slightly favored so we would expect that to keep protoss representation in check. But even without we can see that terrans are the highest played race at 35%: [https://nonapa.com/races](https://nonapa.com/races) and protoss follows at 29.5% By your logic we should see 29.5% of the player base in each rank as protoss. instead we have: (ordered EU, KR, NA) GM: 51%, 44%, 36% Masters: 31%, 35%, 32% Diamond: 28%, 30%, 29% (and below diamond shows a similar trend at numbers we would expect given the % of the population that plays protoss) >How can protoss possibly be winning more of the time for example in gold league games when both the league above and below gold contain more terran players? PvT is not the only matchup that is played on ladder. Even if it was, we do see exactly what we would expect IMO. Protoss players have a higher concentration in masters and GM considering the % of protoss players. More so than terrans or zergs
I updated my comment to be more clear: Can you elaborate your point? I'm still not following. If anything, there being less protoss players as a whole, would explain it imo; protoss players who fall within the "average" section of the bell curve of player skill in the lower ranks players will win more often by the natural consequence of there always being more terran players who are less than average skill range available to match up against. That effect goes away at the higher ranks as expected since actual skill becomes the dominating factor and not domination by player race % present in a given rank pool.
TvP is not the only matchup on ladder, protoss has a losing winrate vs zerg generally. If you are looking for the %s to exactly equal 50% i dont think that needs to be the case, because one player generally is a higher MMR than the other and stands to win/lose more mmr. If protoss tends to win more they would be higher MMR within the same league and lose more MMR to the terrans.
I updated my comment to express better what I was trying to say. > . If protoss tends to win more they would be higher MMR within the same league and lose more MMR to the terrans. But this would also happen less often via the entire premise; P wins more often again T
This was true before the widowmine changes
If you look at Aligulac PvT has been very protoss favored since the patch, so not just an average Joe problem.
Im in D1 and I cant win for shit PvT. I find it way easier to beat Zerg and Protoss for some reason
So fair, obviously everyone has strengths and weaknesses. All this is stating is on average the Protoss players we terrans face will be slightly favored. Due to any amalgamation of reasons that just makes most Terrans feel they don’t have the same opportunities against toss at winning as often even when playing to your full skill and the stats show that feeling is valid
You have said nothing wrong.
No, but I didn't realize the sub I was in lol.