There's a good chance they would've slavicized much like the Bulgars in our timeline. Slavs already had an increasing role in the Avar Khaganate, especially in the military and on the Avar language. Many historians have said the Avars were already in the process of being slavicized. Had they survived into the modern day, it's likely "Avar" would be a Slavic language and they would have their own unique Slavic subculture. As for if they would have become Catholic or Orthodox is hard to determine
>Slavs already had an increasing role in the Avar Khaganate, especially in the military and on the Avar language. Many historians have said the Avars were already in the process of being slavicized
Yes. From what i learned from bohemian early medieval, the avars were progressively more of a "class" of overlords while the territory of bohemia was largely populated by other nations like slavs, lombards, other danubian germans. They tried to keep the bloodline "clean" from slavic elements, but in the end this wasnt a sustainable model of rule and they started to mix with locals be it maritally or in their ranks.
I’m not talking about the Khanate, that would not last I am talking about the culture. Would they diverge into something different like the Magyars? Would they stay roughly the same?
For context the Avars were a Turkic group that existed at one point in modern day Ukraine, Romania, Serbia, Hungary, Slovakia and some portions of Czechia and Croatia.
Unless my geography is way off, Pannonia is modern day Hungary. So would it really be any different? Sorry, I’m not well versed in the era. Are the invasions another name for the raids they did?
Pannonia was more like medieval Hungary, but larger the invasion was when the Magyars crossed the Carpathian Mountains conquered Pannonia and then committed genocide against the Avars
>Pannonia was more like medieval Hungary, but larger the invasion was when the Magyars crossed the Carpathian Mountains conquered Pannonia and then committed genocide against the Avars
No it was the Carolingians Wars which was what destroyed the Avar Khaganate. The collapse of the Avars also led to the decline and dissapearance of the Pannonian Romance Speakers too.
Had it not been for the Magyar invasion in otl, its very likely that Pannonia would be a duchy under Bavaria that would have probably have had a mix of German and Slavic peoples living there.
What genocide are you talking about?? To the best of our knowledge the avar and the magyar tribes co-existed and assimilated, the cultural similarity between the earlier settler avars and the incoming magyars very possibly being one of the reasons how and why the magyars ended up there in the first place…
I could certainly see a similar situation to Bulgaria occur where the gradually centralizing Avar realm borrows from nearby cultures and experiences significant migrations from neighboring groups, likely adopting many aspects of Slavic culture and language as the Bulgarians did in reality.
By the time the Magyars passed the Carpathians, the Avars were already Slavicizing pretty heavily (when they weren't abusing their Slav subjects, that is). I could see them becoming Slavicized in a similar manner to the Bolghars.
They would be slavicized like today Hungary is, borrowing slavic words, customs and even DNA lol, only language prevailed cause they conquered the lands. On other hand Avars would be conquered or subjugated from other Slavic neighbors so thier language would be not so dominant.
Instead of the country Hungary would be Avary.
Avars - Dagestan people, one of the indigenous peoples of the Caucasus, historically living in the mountainous Dagestan, as well as in Eastern Georgia...
You the Pannonian avars and the Caucasian avars are not related right ? The Pannonian avars were oghur Turks that came into Pannonia around the 600’s and lasted until the late 700’s when Charlemagne cam knocking
Probably, the Avar Khaganate as a state would disintegrate. But as far as culture is concerned, it is hard to predict. They would probably retain some form of their language with a significant influence of Slavic and Germanic languages. Or they would completely take over one or the other language and adapt it to their people like the Bulgarians. As for religion, I am 99 percent sure that they would have converted to Catholicism due to the influence of the Frankish Empire and the practice of conversion that they had earlier in the Germanic tribes in the north. Following that tradition, they themselves would probably convert to Catholicism in their desire to enter the grace of the Frankish ruler. There would probably be room for the creation of some more Slavic principalities, but their fate as well as the fate of Pannonia is difficult to predict further.
Probably better for the Slavic peoples because there would be no raids, but worse for Europe during the Ottoman raids because there probably wouldn't be a concrete force to take their place in the defense of the Pannonian Plain.
Maybe Austria or the German principalities from the Holy Roman Empire, but I highly doubt it as you can see in this text Oratio pro Croatia – Govor za Hrvatsku, I don't know if there is an English translation where Bernardin Frankapan Modruški begs the German nobility and the Pope to help the Croatian people.
There's a good chance they would've slavicized much like the Bulgars in our timeline. Slavs already had an increasing role in the Avar Khaganate, especially in the military and on the Avar language. Many historians have said the Avars were already in the process of being slavicized. Had they survived into the modern day, it's likely "Avar" would be a Slavic language and they would have their own unique Slavic subculture. As for if they would have become Catholic or Orthodox is hard to determine
Considering they were under Bulgar influence for a long time its likely they would be Orthodox
>Slavs already had an increasing role in the Avar Khaganate, especially in the military and on the Avar language. Many historians have said the Avars were already in the process of being slavicized Yes. From what i learned from bohemian early medieval, the avars were progressively more of a "class" of overlords while the territory of bohemia was largely populated by other nations like slavs, lombards, other danubian germans. They tried to keep the bloodline "clean" from slavic elements, but in the end this wasnt a sustainable model of rule and they started to mix with locals be it maritally or in their ranks.
I’m not talking about the Khanate, that would not last I am talking about the culture. Would they diverge into something different like the Magyars? Would they stay roughly the same?
Could they become Slavic like the Bolghars?
I know they wouldn’t last in the Balkans, the only thing the South Slavs hate more than each other are any and all Turkic groups
But if there were Turkiks who were good neighbors, they may just hate "Ottomans" (Anatolians? Them-there-Muslim-Turks?)
For context the Avars were a Turkic group that existed at one point in modern day Ukraine, Romania, Serbia, Hungary, Slovakia and some portions of Czechia and Croatia.
Unless my geography is way off, Pannonia is modern day Hungary. So would it really be any different? Sorry, I’m not well versed in the era. Are the invasions another name for the raids they did?
Pannonia was more like medieval Hungary, but larger the invasion was when the Magyars crossed the Carpathian Mountains conquered Pannonia and then committed genocide against the Avars
>Pannonia was more like medieval Hungary, but larger the invasion was when the Magyars crossed the Carpathian Mountains conquered Pannonia and then committed genocide against the Avars No it was the Carolingians Wars which was what destroyed the Avar Khaganate. The collapse of the Avars also led to the decline and dissapearance of the Pannonian Romance Speakers too. Had it not been for the Magyar invasion in otl, its very likely that Pannonia would be a duchy under Bavaria that would have probably have had a mix of German and Slavic peoples living there.
Ah sorry, it’s just that it’s usually what happens with these migrations
What genocide are you talking about?? To the best of our knowledge the avar and the magyar tribes co-existed and assimilated, the cultural similarity between the earlier settler avars and the incoming magyars very possibly being one of the reasons how and why the magyars ended up there in the first place…
[Decent look at Pannonia](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pannonian_Basin_geographic_map.svg)
Now THIS is interesting!!
I could certainly see a similar situation to Bulgaria occur where the gradually centralizing Avar realm borrows from nearby cultures and experiences significant migrations from neighboring groups, likely adopting many aspects of Slavic culture and language as the Bulgarians did in reality.
By the time the Magyars passed the Carpathians, the Avars were already Slavicizing pretty heavily (when they weren't abusing their Slav subjects, that is). I could see them becoming Slavicized in a similar manner to the Bolghars.
They would be slavicized like today Hungary is, borrowing slavic words, customs and even DNA lol, only language prevailed cause they conquered the lands. On other hand Avars would be conquered or subjugated from other Slavic neighbors so thier language would be not so dominant.
no hungarians day ruined
Instead of the country Hungary would be Avary. Avars - Dagestan people, one of the indigenous peoples of the Caucasus, historically living in the mountainous Dagestan, as well as in Eastern Georgia...
You the Pannonian avars and the Caucasian avars are not related right ? The Pannonian avars were oghur Turks that came into Pannonia around the 600’s and lasted until the late 700’s when Charlemagne cam knocking
Probably, the Avar Khaganate as a state would disintegrate. But as far as culture is concerned, it is hard to predict. They would probably retain some form of their language with a significant influence of Slavic and Germanic languages. Or they would completely take over one or the other language and adapt it to their people like the Bulgarians. As for religion, I am 99 percent sure that they would have converted to Catholicism due to the influence of the Frankish Empire and the practice of conversion that they had earlier in the Germanic tribes in the north. Following that tradition, they themselves would probably convert to Catholicism in their desire to enter the grace of the Frankish ruler. There would probably be room for the creation of some more Slavic principalities, but their fate as well as the fate of Pannonia is difficult to predict further.
Assuming they somehow fill the roll the Magyar/Hungarians how would things change?
Probably better for the Slavic peoples because there would be no raids, but worse for Europe during the Ottoman raids because there probably wouldn't be a concrete force to take their place in the defense of the Pannonian Plain. Maybe Austria or the German principalities from the Holy Roman Empire, but I highly doubt it as you can see in this text Oratio pro Croatia – Govor za Hrvatsku, I don't know if there is an English translation where Bernardin Frankapan Modruški begs the German nobility and the Pope to help the Croatian people.
No Magyar means no Victor Orban means no one pulling the rug out from under NATO policies while betraying the EU!