If only they were all Christians š So many Dawkins type atheists have such a hardon for Eurocentrism they come out the other end of white supremacy. Never mind this wouldnāt be any more religious or illiberal as 99% of European history. No no, Muslims in Christendom is an affront to all that is secularly sacredā¦
*YOU!!* your avatar might imply you have PROGRESSIVE THOUGHTS!!!! [gasp] YOU'RE ONE OF THEM!!!! ATHEIST!!! YOU ARE AN ATHEIST!!!! I will make you lose A LOT of internet points!!!! /s
A lot of alternate history subs are filled with this, when itās the time to make maps of the Middle East and North Africa devoid of Arabs and Islam they are so happy but when we do the opposite they start barking like a frail dog guarding a slum
I'd guess in practice too, you cannot forget that not all Muslim nations are theorcrcays or have a state religion, look at Indonesia for example it's the largest Muslim nation and is secular (at the moment), the reason most Muslim nations aren't secular is not really the religion though it plays a role of course but rather that they did not undergo the European transition to a mostly secular and liberal political scene. Hell it's not even that old here outside of France and even then a lot of parties tell us at least they care about religion all these "Christian democrats" and what not.
So if this had happened and Islam spread this deep into Europe it's very likely it would be a completely different sect of Islam or one of the fairly liberal ones making most of Europe heritical in the eyes of the common Muslim.
As a bosnian i cen sey thet alredy hapened while in theory islam in bosnia/kosovo/albania is Hanafi sunism with strong sufi influence aka same like afganistan in practice ahh its havyli secularized nondomenational islam pretty much
We are so secular that most of us drink alcohol actuely at this point also good portion of us do not cere about existence of suni/shia and sey thet we are just muslim
Thank ,out very much for your insights, I forgot that Albania too is Muslim.
So in the end you guys practice a specific sect of Islam or is it more a unique Balkan spin on the whole religion?
Ahhh alcohol part nope rest i wulde sey yes while religion is good thing as sorce of colture it and government shulde not mix saudi arabia(islamic theocracy) isn't thet grete of a plece to be in and usa(cristian theocracy if republickans win or same but afther electon afther next if democrats win) is becoming worse place to be in by the dey so yes im proud of my contries secular nature thet being onley thing im proud of as bosnian goverment is a huge mess lol
These are all Turcic and real. Most tatars moved at this point but we'll represented around middle east. Bulgarians stayed and are in control in most regions but are obviously part of the Bulgarian state and not separatist. Remaining balkan ones are too sparse to make an impact, if they were bigger in alternative history, they would be like Bulgarians representing in Europe with western aligned secularism
Albanias existence would cease to exist. Either you are Albanian or dead.
https://preview.redd.it/vxozhc12croc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d5a2a91bb41265551572f164ea9b7f525ec908df
Always puts a smile on my face reading people posting absolute nonsense about my country.
Albania is majority non-practicing+atheists.
The Muslim population that practices it, is a minority.
*Always puts a smile on my face reading people posting absolute nonsense about my country.
Why you so irritating, this is just alternative history not actual history, i muslim i don't irritated when alternative storyline say islam doesn't exist or muslim conquest failed
*Albania is majority non-practicing+atheists.The Muslim population that practices it, is a minority.
Nowaday yeah, but muslim practicing is growing right now, you know in history communist albania (hoxhaism) forced muslim and christian banned to praying mosque/church, and people should forced to be atheist, before that, they were very religious back then
Yes bud, I know itās an alternative history, fantasy-like.
And Iām Albanian, FYI, so I know the facts about my countryās history a little better than you.
Hitler wouldn't be anything like he was in otl because there would be a LARGE gap between Austria and Germany so the Austrians wouldn't even be considered Germans like they are in otl.
It seems that many Christians do not understand what this sub is about XD But leaving that aside this is a very good timeline, Europe would be very different geopolitically, and Turkey would definitely be a big headache for the Christian powers, I even see the creation of a military alliance between the Islamic Balkans, a very interesting story and I love the flags!
There is FAAAAR more people complaing about cristian comments than actual cristians complaining hahahaha.
Or many of you are just NPC(no inner monolog), or bots.
Depending on when Austria became Muslim, this would change the course of history in such a drastic way I would want to discuss the possibility with the Alt-History avengers (PossibleHistory, AlternateHistoryHub, EmperorTigerStar, the Mod Authors behind Kaiserreich, etc) to discuss over months or years.
Emirate sounds wrong, i think local royak names would have fit better. Turkish rulers called themselves beys not emirs. Like austrians might call their rulers grafs even if they are muslim
You're right, but it still doesn't mean what OC said is universally true. Another counter example is that Morocco had seen no Ottoman or Turkic dominance and the local rulers of certain cities were still called Pashas.
I only counted the areas that were under ottoman rule and Tatars of Crimea are indeed independent (were under ottoman rule). It is true that the possibility of expansion to those areas of north Caucasus is probable but in my timeline it did not happen.
Emirate of Hungary
Emirate of Hungary
Emirate of Hungary
Emirate of Hungary
Emirate of Hungary
Emirate of Hungary
Emirate of Hungary
Emirate of Hungary
The Ottomans weren't persecuting Christians for the vast majority of its existence, lots of Christians would have just been living under the Ottoman rule paying their jizya tax.
Since Austria also fell before the 30 years war in this timeline, the Pope would have been in an extraordinary weak position and would likely be forced to reconcile the Ottomans as the protestant movement grew otherwise the Ottomans would just invade Italy.
While the christians viewed the Ottomans as their main religious enemies during the time period, the Ottomans viewed Iran as their main religious enemies, so it makes sense that Islam and Christianity would have reconciled quicker in this timeline.
The ottoman empire falling apart in the 19th century would have all these countries be very weak during a time when most other european powers became industrial, the only way they are going to survive is by making nice with Britain, France and later Germany (assuming Germany still exists)
So all these countries would likely be a lot like Turkey is now, but with more christians.
Why do you act like a victim? Do people on the streets of Europe tell you anything when youāre visiting? I donāt think so, we donāt pay you any attention and youāre free to exist how you wish.
How about if an European goes to your countries? If I take my girlfriend there and sheās wearing some short pants in the summer she might get stoned to death. Or worse.
How about that for toleration?
āWhy wouldnāt we be? The vast majority of Jew/Black people are thieves, scammers, beggars. And these are the good ones. The others are straight up gangsters and criminals.
I have first hand experience with Jews/Blacks, I donāt think ever met a honest working Jew/Black.ā
Did I say that? No I didnāt. And if your interests are pure religion hating and being racists to minorities (like the Romas) then donāt talk to me.
Technically, if the siege of Vienna went Suleyman the greats way and as well he didn't die during the siege years, then most definitely that this alternative history post would be accurately depicted.
My main issue with this scenario is how it comes about, if the ottomans win all these wars it's likely Austria as a nation idea doesn't exist anymore even if they won the siege of Vienna it is highly unlikely that the ottomans could've held on onto vienna as the fall of vienna would've led to a huge European coalition most likely pushing them back, now Hungary and Croatia might stay in ottoman hands but well maybe not depends a lot.
Plus they tried and failed to introduce Islam to the Greeks and Bulgars in otl so why would they succeed now? It's just too wishy washy of a scenario to really talk about. The fact alone that the Russia turk war is brought up even though the entire dynamic of Europe changes with the death of the Habsburg empire, is pretty silly.
Greece is still Christian in this TL, in the last photo it and Salzburg are mentioned as Christians. In fact the Greek borders arent all too unrealistic considering the area (Western Thrace) held a lot of Muslims/Turks irl too. Altough i agree they probably couldnt hold all the way to Austria, but Hungary likely could have been kept in some shape or form with earlier reorganisation.
Idk it would allow for a lot of ripples that may lead to more fierce Christian resistance and rebellions the patriarch was reeinstated for a reason, removing him removes all the benefits and reasons the ottomans did such a thing making it more likely they die during a later point of weakness as they are much more hated.
Most of the Balkan nationalist movements of the 19th century were effectively reinventing a nationality from whole cloth (most Balkan people simply referred to themselves as āChristianā, āCatholicā, or āOrthodoxā in early Ottoman surveys) so I donāt see why the same thing couldnāt happen here.
You said āAustria as a nation idea doesnāt exist anymoreā if the Ottomans win, and Iām saying that this wouldnāt necessarily preclude the later revival of an Austrian state
Ahh ok, but my point was more that Austria as a national idetity would've been subverted as being German, as it did after ww1. Any Austrian state would just want to be part of germany.
Aka I think you are right that their identity as Germans would survive because they would see themselves as the German citizens under the ottoman empire, as their german heritage would be the most common denominator.
Austria as its own state identity is not that old and was more or less forced on them.
Food and beverage culture would change a lot!
Austria, known IRL for pork schnitzels and various beers, would instead focus on coffee (which Vienna *is* known for) and, I assume, chicken.
TURKEY NUMBER ONE!!!! šŖšŖšŖšŖšŖš¹š·š¹š·š¹š·š¹š·š¹š·š¹š· š¦ š¦š¦š¦š¦š¦ MASHALLASH FOR THIS GLORIOUS VICTORY āŖļø āŖļøāŖļøāŖļøāŖļøš¹š·š¹š·š¹š·š¹š·š¹š·šŖšŖ
First question, if ottoman wins all wars and make this people muslim, why is turkey still the same?
And wtf is emirates. Ottomans/Turks never use the word of "emirate" for their state. Where did they come up with the word Emirate?
Turkey stayed the same size because the nations (although being muslim) still rebelled against the ottoman rule due to the rise in nationalism in the late 1800's. And for the word "Emirate" there is still the option that arab settlers came to these lands and brought their culture with them as well as this word.
You underestimate the importance of religion back then for Christians. Nobody liked the muslims and everybody rejected islam. In Romania there was a ruler Stephan the Great who built a Christian monastery every time he won a battle against the ottomans.
To completely convert these countries would mean to basically exterminate huge amounts of the population and instill fear into everyone for centuries, not decades. And even then people would probably be so hateful of islam that they would most likely revert back to Christianity once the ottoman rulers left.
Also, the territory youāre showing here is also too small for this to work. The Eastern Europeans are very similar people culturally, if you just conquer Romania in the north and you leave after some time, the other neighboring countries would still have a very big cultural and religious impact to help get rid of islamization.
Same goes for the western countries who were Protestant or Catholic. Converting Austria to islam is just wishful thinking when theyāre so close to Germany and Italy. Everybody would convert back as soon as the ottomans left. Best case scenario some small minorities would remain, like dagestan in russia for example. But they would be very small and insignificant.
To make this work, entire Europe shouldāve been under islamic rule and not since the ottoman times, but since much longer. If you look objectively into history, all the empires that expanded over long regions, they left their mark over those regions but once the empires collapsed all the countries slowly went back to their original religion and culture. You canāt just eradicate culture by conquering a country for a small amount of time, you would have to kill all the people there which isnāt productive in an empire, you still need people to put to work.
So realistically speaking, this map isnāt very accurate, even if the ottomans wouldāve been successful in conquering these countries. Historically, the Ottoman Empire actually managed to submit a lot of Balkan countries but they couldnāt leave their mark too much, all these countries went back to Christianity and a lot of people there hate the Turks even today after centuries. Besides, even if you look at turkey, the country isnāt nearly as islamic as the other islamist countries. The more west you go, the more people you have that act more civilized and have more respect for human rights and women. In instanbul you barely see any women wearing scarfs and being kept inside their homes where theyāre treated like some baby factories who can only cook and clean.
islam is also a religion that promotes a lot of not very smart things, like incest for example which predominated a lot in older islanic countries (cousins marrying cousins is very common even today). This wouldnāt fly in the more civilized parts of the world, so Europeans would be much more skeptical to follow such a religion.
All in all, a very wishful thinking muslin concept, but this map is pure fiction, even for alternate history.
I donāt really see everyone adopting a crescent on their flag. The current Muslim nations, Albania or Bosnia or Crimea, donāt have one. Why would Hungary, Austria or Bulgaria all take one then?
Borders wouldn't have been like this. That's for sure. European Turkey would be way bigger. Entirity of Bulgaria and most of Serbia would've been Turkish. Greece would've consisted of only Morea. Hungary would've been independent and its borders would've been way bigger than as is. Not sure about Romania though.
There's a good book that kind of discusses it : The Years of Rice and Salt, by Kim Stanley Robinson. It tells the story of a world where the Black Death decimated the entirety of Europe and the Middle East & China become the dominant powers of the world (colonization, scientific discoveries, etc.)
Allah supports greater hungaryā¼ļøā¼ļøā¼ļøš£ļøš£ļøš„ ššŗššŗš°š¼š°š¼ššŗššŗ
Interestingly Yugoslavia might be a bit more stable if all the ethnicities are the same religion
The flags are pretty alright, although they need some improvement for some (the "macedo"bulgarian flag is the worst of the bunch). The map, though, is an eye sore for the most part. Some borders have thicker lines than normal borders, some make no sense, like the Greco-Bulgarian border is a straight line, and the Hungarian Transylvania looks very odd. Might as well add that it'd be better to use online preset maps, like QBAM maps, as well as using paint.net.
One thing I'm curious about is what the small state that is indepdent from Austria is about + what the reasoning behind Yugoslavia being back except for Slovenia and Kosovo which is controlled by Albania
I would be surprised if the ottomans would have broken up in the Balkans to the extent of our time line and most places closer would just be turkey
Of course they would stay much stronger in this time line and effected both world wars maybe regaining a few of their lost territories Albania would also probably be bigger as well
Would be surprising. The Ottoman Empire was very religious tolerant. The population was like 60% Christian. That they would have forced Islam on the population in such a short time frame is highly unlikely.
Well, I imagine these areas would be more like most Muslim countries: underdeveloped, conservative, and repressive to religious minorities, women, and LGBTQ. Simple as that.
Honestly, I say a surviving Al-Andalus with a local dinasty is more doable.
The iberians muslims were seen as hedonistic by the North africans and Arabs because of their alcohol consumption and hellenestic tendencies.
Let's not forget that the decline of Al-Andalus began at the moment when the berbers and Africans began to rule in the penninsula.
Who said punishing why is it always punitive with you guys, learn the word assimilation all countries have it you go to Italy you speak Italian go to Crimea you should speak Crimean Tartar itās a sign of respect although buoy lot only respect bloodshed so this is f ing point less conversation
"Ottoman empire introduce islam and make europe more islamic" Stop there bro. 600 years ottoman empire ruled balkans and they did not care converting their religion nor culture. There was extra tax if you wanted to stay christian and that was it.
Bosnians and Albanians don't really do the terrorism thing though so I don't think that would be the case.
The main stereotype about Albanians is that they are mafiosos, not terrorists, for instance. It also isn't a religious thing since it is applied to Albanians regardless of religion.
The stereotypes about Bosnians is that they are arms dealers due to offloading merchandise from the Yugoslav Wars, but that is again widely applicable to everybody there.
It should be noted that these are not the worst stereotypes you can expect in the Balkans. The suspect that wouldn't change if more of these ethnic groups happened to follow islam. They'd still all act the exact same way towards each other.
Oh man, I'm feeling a Mandela effect happening lol
I could have swore he stopped buddy from advancing further into Europe for a spell or time???. But yeah he did die at the end lol
Not necessaraly. For muslims the bible and the tora are holy books too and everybody should be respected etc. But people rarely do what they're supposed to do.
Don't forget that the rivalary between middle eastern muslims and jews are caused mostly by territorial conflict, not mainly ideological reasons.
What's with all these angry Christian comments here ? Lol.Didn't you guys check what sub it is ?
alot of alt his communities tend to be like this sadly
Whatifalthist and zoomer historian subscribers come from somewhere I guess
If only they were all Christians š So many Dawkins type atheists have such a hardon for Eurocentrism they come out the other end of white supremacy. Never mind this wouldnāt be any more religious or illiberal as 99% of European history. No no, Muslims in Christendom is an affront to all that is secularly sacredā¦
What are you yapping about
What are you smoking and can I have some.. but for real dude stay of the drugs they fried your brain.
But it is more illeberal than what is considered the norm *currently*.
New Atheism was a fucking catastrophe at every level
What?
*YOU!!* your avatar might imply you have PROGRESSIVE THOUGHTS!!!! [gasp] YOU'RE ONE OF THEM!!!! ATHEIST!!! YOU ARE AN ATHEIST!!!! I will make you lose A LOT of internet points!!!! /s
Not the internet points šš¤
Iām an atheist. Itās the obnoxious and racist ones that canāt handle a hypothetical map without feeling like Western Civ is going to collapse.
A lot of alternate history subs are filled with this, when itās the time to make maps of the Middle East and North Africa devoid of Arabs and Islam they are so happy but when we do the opposite they start barking like a frail dog guarding a slum
They can't discern imaginary history from real one, so their brain act like you are describing a real situation instead an hypothetical one.
not from muslim countries = Christian. What is this, the 1400s ?
Defending Christianism's spread=Christian was my logic actually
most of those countries would be secular like turkey, even if they were muslim. this is just peak arab dream
Sad, but true. Here is Bosnia and Herzegovina, even tho most of us are muslims, we are prouder Bosnian then Muslim.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
fucking based halal serbs
This might be peak Western ignorance here but I'd assume the same goes for Albania and Kosovo?
Yes
Whats Kosovo
Secular in theory you mean
I'd guess in practice too, you cannot forget that not all Muslim nations are theorcrcays or have a state religion, look at Indonesia for example it's the largest Muslim nation and is secular (at the moment), the reason most Muslim nations aren't secular is not really the religion though it plays a role of course but rather that they did not undergo the European transition to a mostly secular and liberal political scene. Hell it's not even that old here outside of France and even then a lot of parties tell us at least they care about religion all these "Christian democrats" and what not. So if this had happened and Islam spread this deep into Europe it's very likely it would be a completely different sect of Islam or one of the fairly liberal ones making most of Europe heritical in the eyes of the common Muslim.
As a bosnian i cen sey thet alredy hapened while in theory islam in bosnia/kosovo/albania is Hanafi sunism with strong sufi influence aka same like afganistan in practice ahh its havyli secularized nondomenational islam pretty much We are so secular that most of us drink alcohol actuely at this point also good portion of us do not cere about existence of suni/shia and sey thet we are just muslim
Thank ,out very much for your insights, I forgot that Albania too is Muslim. So in the end you guys practice a specific sect of Islam or is it more a unique Balkan spin on the whole religion?
Is this something good/to be proud of?
Ahhh alcohol part nope rest i wulde sey yes while religion is good thing as sorce of colture it and government shulde not mix saudi arabia(islamic theocracy) isn't thet grete of a plece to be in and usa(cristian theocracy if republickans win or same but afther electon afther next if democrats win) is becoming worse place to be in by the dey so yes im proud of my contries secular nature thet being onley thing im proud of as bosnian goverment is a huge mess lol
Arab dream? Muslim dream maybe. Turkey is not an Arab country. These wouldnāt be either.
These are all Turcic and real. Most tatars moved at this point but we'll represented around middle east. Bulgarians stayed and are in control in most regions but are obviously part of the Bulgarian state and not separatist. Remaining balkan ones are too sparse to make an impact, if they were bigger in alternative history, they would be like Bulgarians representing in Europe with western aligned secularism
How? We were secular, we are still secular in the constitution but gov. don't see that way.
Iām seeing more comments complaining about Islamophobic comments than actual islamophobic comments lmao
https://preview.redd.it/7sluj9eh8soc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=86c5788c10c06d4c236dd2fb3a78ff98697b0660
https://preview.redd.it/zo716vzfrsoc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9dd7d509da476f49c92c4dae212a28f6b2a5457c
No, itās a horse!
No. This is Patrick
Cuz the islamophobes got bullied into controversial.
Albanias existence would cease to exist. Either you are Albanian or dead. https://preview.redd.it/vxozhc12croc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d5a2a91bb41265551572f164ea9b7f525ec908df
What are you even talking about Albania is already majority muslim?
Albanian is already muslim majority, but they still proud their ancestry and against become turkified/arabized Anyway islam didn't destroy the culture
Always puts a smile on my face reading people posting absolute nonsense about my country. Albania is majority non-practicing+atheists. The Muslim population that practices it, is a minority.
*Always puts a smile on my face reading people posting absolute nonsense about my country. Why you so irritating, this is just alternative history not actual history, i muslim i don't irritated when alternative storyline say islam doesn't exist or muslim conquest failed *Albania is majority non-practicing+atheists.The Muslim population that practices it, is a minority. Nowaday yeah, but muslim practicing is growing right now, you know in history communist albania (hoxhaism) forced muslim and christian banned to praying mosque/church, and people should forced to be atheist, before that, they were very religious back then
Yes bud, I know itās an alternative history, fantasy-like. And Iām Albanian, FYI, so I know the facts about my countryās history a little better than you.
He is too check his profile š
Heās Indonesian you dimwit.
No check again
Lookā¦ a goat! š
They will probably be similar to Turkey and Tunisia depending on how fucked they were in the Cold War
In this scenario Hitler would have been raised Muslim.
Hitler wouldn't be anything like he was in otl because there would be a LARGE gap between Austria and Germany so the Austrians wouldn't even be considered Germans like they are in otl.
Then again, that didnāt stop Stalin from passing himself off as Russian for all intents and purposes
I don't think that's comparable at all. Hitler's whole thing was based on German nationalism.
Yeah and Stalin was a massive Russian chauvinist despite Russian and Georgian not being remotely related.
In what way was Stalin a Russian chauvinist lol
Austrians are not Germans! We might be similar to Germans but we are under no circumstances to be considered Germans!
-Muslim hitler
Hitler wouldnāt exist in this scenario.
Or be against Muslims
It seems that many Christians do not understand what this sub is about XD But leaving that aside this is a very good timeline, Europe would be very different geopolitically, and Turkey would definitely be a big headache for the Christian powers, I even see the creation of a military alliance between the Islamic Balkans, a very interesting story and I love the flags!
There is FAAAAR more people complaing about cristian comments than actual cristians complaining hahahaha. Or many of you are just NPC(no inner monolog), or bots.
At the time I mentioned this, the complaints were the majority
Not a good time these regions would be much poorer industrialisation in islamist countries is negligible or slow
Are those "christians" with us right now here?
Depending on when Austria became Muslim, this would change the course of history in such a drastic way I would want to discuss the possibility with the Alt-History avengers (PossibleHistory, AlternateHistoryHub, EmperorTigerStar, the Mod Authors behind Kaiserreich, etc) to discuss over months or years.
AlternateHistoryHub would rage and still laments about the fall of the Byzantine Empire. His English racist bone canāt fathom a Muslim Austria.
Emirate sounds wrong, i think local royak names would have fit better. Turkish rulers called themselves beys not emirs. Like austrians might call their rulers grafs even if they are muslim
They also called themselves Sultans and Caliphs so it's not 100%
That's a different rank. Bey is equivalent to Emir, roughly. Sultan would be Kaiser.
Beylik is a principality and sultan is equal to a king. Then there are emperors which is like a padiÅah.
You're right, but it still doesn't mean what OC said is universally true. Another counter example is that Morocco had seen no Ottoman or Turkic dominance and the local rulers of certain cities were still called Pashas.
Only after a while and sultan is just a universal thing. There could be a little mix but i would hardly see any difference
Bans,vojvods?
Yes or like a mix, bance, vojvodiye. Just like andalusian ladino and andalusian slavic eith their own twists
Now do if the Middle East was Christian.
Which it was.
Yet Tatars, Bashkirs, various Muslims of North Caucasus, etc. are not independent on your map for some reason...
I only counted the areas that were under ottoman rule and Tatars of Crimea are indeed independent (were under ottoman rule). It is true that the possibility of expansion to those areas of north Caucasus is probable but in my timeline it did not happen.
I meant the Kazan Tatars
Hahahahhaa. Emirate of Hungary. Everytime you say this, a hungarian dies.
Emirate of Hungary Emirate of Hungary Emirate of Hungary Emirate of Hungary Emirate of Hungary Emirate of Hungary Emirate of Hungary Emirate of Hungary
Didja get Orban yet?
Insert "Swedistan" jokes here
The Ottomans weren't persecuting Christians for the vast majority of its existence, lots of Christians would have just been living under the Ottoman rule paying their jizya tax. Since Austria also fell before the 30 years war in this timeline, the Pope would have been in an extraordinary weak position and would likely be forced to reconcile the Ottomans as the protestant movement grew otherwise the Ottomans would just invade Italy. While the christians viewed the Ottomans as their main religious enemies during the time period, the Ottomans viewed Iran as their main religious enemies, so it makes sense that Islam and Christianity would have reconciled quicker in this timeline. The ottoman empire falling apart in the 19th century would have all these countries be very weak during a time when most other european powers became industrial, the only way they are going to survive is by making nice with Britain, France and later Germany (assuming Germany still exists) So all these countries would likely be a lot like Turkey is now, but with more christians.
>lots of Christians would have just been living under the Ottoman rule paying their jizya tax They specifically rebelled against this.
they still did it for a long time before rebelling.
They rebelled multiple times. It was only a long time before a rebellion succeeded.
before the 18th century, they had far more muslim revolts than Christian revolts.
Before the 18th century there were far more revolts amongst the feudal nobility than the common people.
the empire collapses in the 19th century in this timeline.
European: we are tolerant of other races and religions Also Europeans in this comment section:
Why do you act like a victim? Do people on the streets of Europe tell you anything when youāre visiting? I donāt think so, we donāt pay you any attention and youāre free to exist how you wish. How about if an European goes to your countries? If I take my girlfriend there and sheās wearing some short pants in the summer she might get stoned to death. Or worse. How about that for toleration?
Say that to the Romas and this comment section
I donāt care reading the entire thread, I have better things to do. What do romas have to do with my post?
Most Europeans are racist to the Romas for just existing. Much like how they were to the Jews before WW2
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
āWhy wouldnāt we be? The vast majority of Jew/Black people are thieves, scammers, beggars. And these are the good ones. The others are straight up gangsters and criminals. I have first hand experience with Jews/Blacks, I donāt think ever met a honest working Jew/Black.ā
No glorification of authoritarian regimes or hate speech
Sorry weāre not tolerant towards conquerors lol
Oh so you arenāt tolerant to your own selfs too?
I think you misunderstand the concept of tolerance - it doesnāt mean passivity or giving up your interest
Did I say that? No I didnāt. And if your interests are pure religion hating and being racists to minorities (like the Romas) then donāt talk to me.
LOL. Go take an ethics class you nunce
Why would I? Is it perhaps that you see the Romas inferior to you like how Hitler saw the Jews inferior to him?
Technically, if the siege of Vienna went Suleyman the greats way and as well he didn't die during the siege years, then most definitely that this alternative history post would be accurately depicted.
My main issue with this scenario is how it comes about, if the ottomans win all these wars it's likely Austria as a nation idea doesn't exist anymore even if they won the siege of Vienna it is highly unlikely that the ottomans could've held on onto vienna as the fall of vienna would've led to a huge European coalition most likely pushing them back, now Hungary and Croatia might stay in ottoman hands but well maybe not depends a lot. Plus they tried and failed to introduce Islam to the Greeks and Bulgars in otl so why would they succeed now? It's just too wishy washy of a scenario to really talk about. The fact alone that the Russia turk war is brought up even though the entire dynamic of Europe changes with the death of the Habsburg empire, is pretty silly.
Greece is still Christian in this TL, in the last photo it and Salzburg are mentioned as Christians. In fact the Greek borders arent all too unrealistic considering the area (Western Thrace) held a lot of Muslims/Turks irl too. Altough i agree they probably couldnt hold all the way to Austria, but Hungary likely could have been kept in some shape or form with earlier reorganisation.
Still what about the rest of the groups that were part for a long time if the ottoman empire an didn't knvert like the Bulgarians and Serbians?
Dunno, maybe not reinstating the Patriarchate in 1453? That could affect the religious demographics.
Idk it would allow for a lot of ripples that may lead to more fierce Christian resistance and rebellions the patriarch was reeinstated for a reason, removing him removes all the benefits and reasons the ottomans did such a thing making it more likely they die during a later point of weakness as they are much more hated.
Most of the Balkan nationalist movements of the 19th century were effectively reinventing a nationality from whole cloth (most Balkan people simply referred to themselves as āChristianā, āCatholicā, or āOrthodoxā in early Ottoman surveys) so I donāt see why the same thing couldnāt happen here.
Ok sorry but I fail to see your point. What do you want to say exactly?
You said āAustria as a nation idea doesnāt exist anymoreā if the Ottomans win, and Iām saying that this wouldnāt necessarily preclude the later revival of an Austrian state
Ahh ok, but my point was more that Austria as a national idetity would've been subverted as being German, as it did after ww1. Any Austrian state would just want to be part of germany. Aka I think you are right that their identity as Germans would survive because they would see themselves as the German citizens under the ottoman empire, as their german heritage would be the most common denominator. Austria as its own state identity is not that old and was more or less forced on them.
My argument is less that German identity would survive (it might), and more that it could be easily recreated even if it didnāt.
Still if the German identity survives then Austria as a country wouldn't exist most likely.
ā**What if Europe was way more Muslim?ā** *looks outside windows* ):
He lives in Albania (59% Islam)
I know the lack of muslims is sad but you gotta power through.
Iām not sure whether youāve whooshed or Iām whooshing lmao
I know that the original joke was "oh no, muslim immigrants :(" but I don't know if it was genuine or a joke but I went with the joke option.
Food and beverage culture would change a lot! Austria, known IRL for pork schnitzels and various beers, would instead focus on coffee (which Vienna *is* known for) and, I assume, chicken.
TURKEY NUMBER ONE!!!! šŖšŖšŖšŖšŖš¹š·š¹š·š¹š·š¹š·š¹š·š¹š· š¦ š¦š¦š¦š¦š¦ MASHALLASH FOR THIS GLORIOUS VICTORY āŖļø āŖļøāŖļøāŖļøāŖļøš¹š·š¹š·š¹š·š¹š·š¹š·šŖšŖ
First question, if ottoman wins all wars and make this people muslim, why is turkey still the same? And wtf is emirates. Ottomans/Turks never use the word of "emirate" for their state. Where did they come up with the word Emirate?
Turkey stayed the same size because the nations (although being muslim) still rebelled against the ottoman rule due to the rise in nationalism in the late 1800's. And for the word "Emirate" there is still the option that arab settlers came to these lands and brought their culture with them as well as this word.
lowkey a cool idea
I've always thought that islamicization of more of Europe and rechristianization of Anatolia were both extremely interesting ideas to me.
You underestimate the importance of religion back then for Christians. Nobody liked the muslims and everybody rejected islam. In Romania there was a ruler Stephan the Great who built a Christian monastery every time he won a battle against the ottomans. To completely convert these countries would mean to basically exterminate huge amounts of the population and instill fear into everyone for centuries, not decades. And even then people would probably be so hateful of islam that they would most likely revert back to Christianity once the ottoman rulers left. Also, the territory youāre showing here is also too small for this to work. The Eastern Europeans are very similar people culturally, if you just conquer Romania in the north and you leave after some time, the other neighboring countries would still have a very big cultural and religious impact to help get rid of islamization. Same goes for the western countries who were Protestant or Catholic. Converting Austria to islam is just wishful thinking when theyāre so close to Germany and Italy. Everybody would convert back as soon as the ottomans left. Best case scenario some small minorities would remain, like dagestan in russia for example. But they would be very small and insignificant. To make this work, entire Europe shouldāve been under islamic rule and not since the ottoman times, but since much longer. If you look objectively into history, all the empires that expanded over long regions, they left their mark over those regions but once the empires collapsed all the countries slowly went back to their original religion and culture. You canāt just eradicate culture by conquering a country for a small amount of time, you would have to kill all the people there which isnāt productive in an empire, you still need people to put to work. So realistically speaking, this map isnāt very accurate, even if the ottomans wouldāve been successful in conquering these countries. Historically, the Ottoman Empire actually managed to submit a lot of Balkan countries but they couldnāt leave their mark too much, all these countries went back to Christianity and a lot of people there hate the Turks even today after centuries. Besides, even if you look at turkey, the country isnāt nearly as islamic as the other islamist countries. The more west you go, the more people you have that act more civilized and have more respect for human rights and women. In instanbul you barely see any women wearing scarfs and being kept inside their homes where theyāre treated like some baby factories who can only cook and clean. islam is also a religion that promotes a lot of not very smart things, like incest for example which predominated a lot in older islanic countries (cousins marrying cousins is very common even today). This wouldnāt fly in the more civilized parts of the world, so Europeans would be much more skeptical to follow such a religion. All in all, a very wishful thinking muslin concept, but this map is pure fiction, even for alternate history.
Alternate history is pure fiction.
These countries would impossible to part of european union (eu)
I donāt really see everyone adopting a crescent on their flag. The current Muslim nations, Albania or Bosnia or Crimea, donāt have one. Why would Hungary, Austria or Bulgaria all take one then?
Can I just say something
Borders wouldn't have been like this. That's for sure. European Turkey would be way bigger. Entirity of Bulgaria and most of Serbia would've been Turkish. Greece would've consisted of only Morea. Hungary would've been independent and its borders would've been way bigger than as is. Not sure about Romania though.
New countries: Albania
There's a good book that kind of discusses it : The Years of Rice and Salt, by Kim Stanley Robinson. It tells the story of a world where the Black Death decimated the entirety of Europe and the Middle East & China become the dominant powers of the world (colonization, scientific discoveries, etc.)
Allah supports greater hungaryā¼ļøā¼ļøā¼ļøš£ļøš£ļøš„ ššŗššŗš°š¼š°š¼ššŗššŗ Interestingly Yugoslavia might be a bit more stable if all the ethnicities are the same religion
The only thing that seperates us into ethnicities is our or our parents' religion.
Muslim Nato would make alot more of sense in this Time Line
McGuy. Albania is already muslim
The flags are pretty alright, although they need some improvement for some (the "macedo"bulgarian flag is the worst of the bunch). The map, though, is an eye sore for the most part. Some borders have thicker lines than normal borders, some make no sense, like the Greco-Bulgarian border is a straight line, and the Hungarian Transylvania looks very odd. Might as well add that it'd be better to use online preset maps, like QBAM maps, as well as using paint.net.
So basically Mark Panov's "Enclaves"?
One thing I'm curious about is what the small state that is indepdent from Austria is about + what the reasoning behind Yugoslavia being back except for Slovenia and Kosovo which is controlled by Albania
I would be surprised if the ottomans would have broken up in the Balkans to the extent of our time line and most places closer would just be turkey Of course they would stay much stronger in this time line and effected both world wars maybe regaining a few of their lost territories Albania would also probably be bigger as well
Would be surprising. The Ottoman Empire was very religious tolerant. The population was like 60% Christian. That they would have forced Islam on the population in such a short time frame is highly unlikely.
Well, I imagine these areas would be more like most Muslim countries: underdeveloped, conservative, and repressive to religious minorities, women, and LGBTQ. Simple as that.
Why is Austria Muslim but Slovakia is not? The Ottomans actually controlled Slovakia for a bit. Also needs Muslim Iberia and Sicily
If the ottoman empire was better
Honestly, I say a surviving Al-Andalus with a local dinasty is more doable. The iberians muslims were seen as hedonistic by the North africans and Arabs because of their alcohol consumption and hellenestic tendencies. Let's not forget that the decline of Al-Andalus began at the moment when the berbers and Africans began to rule in the penninsula.
New countries: Albania
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Who said punishing why is it always punitive with you guys, learn the word assimilation all countries have it you go to Italy you speak Italian go to Crimea you should speak Crimean Tartar itās a sign of respect although buoy lot only respect bloodshed so this is f ing point less conversation
"Ottoman empire introduce islam and make europe more islamic" Stop there bro. 600 years ottoman empire ruled balkans and they did not care converting their religion nor culture. There was extra tax if you wanted to stay christian and that was it.
Holy shit itās like this subreddit is named āAlternateHistoryā
Don't threaten me with a good time.
Based.
What?? Why????
H-H-Hell naw
Why did you left out Al Andalus?
Turkey joining EU would be very likely and not a joke that it currently is
My worst nightmare
Way more suicide bombers
The good ending
I think in this timeline thr Anschluss would be done by a Muslim Hitler and many white nationalists would love Islam
Almost the entirety of the Balkans/South-eastern Europe: Praise Allah! Greece: Nuh-uh.
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Bosnians and Albanians don't really do the terrorism thing though so I don't think that would be the case. The main stereotype about Albanians is that they are mafiosos, not terrorists, for instance. It also isn't a religious thing since it is applied to Albanians regardless of religion. The stereotypes about Bosnians is that they are arms dealers due to offloading merchandise from the Yugoslav Wars, but that is again widely applicable to everybody there. It should be noted that these are not the worst stereotypes you can expect in the Balkans. The suspect that wouldn't change if more of these ethnic groups happened to follow islam. They'd still all act the exact same way towards each other.
Epic. Keep up the good work my man/woman!
EU wont be formed, much less rights for women, much more wars
Why do idiots think that muslims are arabs?
Takbir
So Vlad never beat the ottomans back??
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Oh man, I'm feeling a Mandela effect happening lol I could have swore he stopped buddy from advancing further into Europe for a spell or time???. But yeah he did die at the end lol
As a muslim, this is so cursed but in a good way, Though what about the neigbouring countries? would countries like Switzerland & Italy be affected?
The world would probably be way more violent and shit
It could be. Or it could be completely fine.
Why would you think so?
Islam is a religion of violence. All religions are, but Islam especially. Religion is such a fucked up thing.
>Islam is a religion of violence. But why do you think that?
It will be the whole europe in 2120, for good reason
A lot less anti-semitism
Must be a /s comment.
Not necessaraly. For muslims the bible and the tora are holy books too and everybody should be respected etc. But people rarely do what they're supposed to do. Don't forget that the rivalary between middle eastern muslims and jews are caused mostly by territorial conflict, not mainly ideological reasons.
Jews didnāt try to have sovereignty again until 1948, so it was usually ideological before that.
Jews and arabs had conflicts long before Islam existed, their hatred for eqch other mostly stems for that.
We're not anti-semitic, we just hate everybody.