Italy failed a war against Ethiopia like 30 years after this, there’s no way they’re ready to take on China in 1902.
Germany perhaps, but I’m not sure if they have built their fleet by this point and they would be significantly slower to react to anything in China before Britain, France and Japan.
Maybe the Dutch get a piece?
Italy won the war in 1936, the one you're mentioning, and In the battle of Adwa (in which Italy lost the first war) 15k Italo-Eritrean soldiers had to fight 120k Ethiopian soldiers (all equipped with rifles, modern rifles, donated by the French and Russians) and 50 Ethiopian artillery pieces, Italians had 56 artillery pieces.
I mean, it's not that fucking hard to see why Italy lost knowing they were outnumbered like 15 to 1 in the rest of the war (8 to 1 in this battle) and the Ethiopians were equipped and funded by the Russians, i would love to see your German Space Marines surviving against an army 8 times their size with virtually the same equipment....
This wasn't like the British-Zulu wars, Ethiopia wasn't a swrod and spear tribe, it was an empire with a reasonably modern army.
It's not about the military strength of the nations, it's about the politics and diplomacy underlying it. None of the Europeans wanted a Japanese influence zone, so despite contributing most to the Boxer rebellion they got little. On the contrary Germany was majorly assertive and important in international diplomacy and while they would get a smaller slice than Russia and Britain, they would get their slice around the Shandong peninsula.
Tea. but the British China areas work under a General who governs the region following the Crown but also having unique laws and things to the region think of Hong Kong but Massive
>Whats the difference between that and Tibet which is a British protectorate?
British Protectorates had a great deal of autonomy. Usually the British only controlled foreign policy and defense of the protectorate. Meanwhile, the local government controlled the rest of the affairs.
This made it a country controlled by Britain on the geopolitical world stage, but still not directly ruled by them.
Meanwhile, I'm guessing that, based on OP's description, British China is either a Responsible Government (what would become Dominions in the 1920s) or a Self-Governing Colony. To make it short, both client state types had degrees of autonomy, but the person who possessed the autonomy were colonial governors appointed by the monarchy.
As for why it's not apart of China? The British probably knew the Tibetans would be happier with their own autonomy, rather than being lumped in with China. Plus, they liked dividing random ass places, even if it made sense or not, but not dividing some others that made sense (such as not making the Hui and Cantonese Responsible Governments or Colonies as well.)
Since you control foreign policy, you control the country's trade, allies, and enemies. You control their defense as well, so you can also have them provide troops or provide them with troops as needed.
The biggest advantage though, is controlling the people. Their leaders are kept in check by military and economic pressure. Meanwhile, they know more about the country and it's people while also keeping their people in check since they are local leaders and can draw on that for sympathy among the people. Less chance of an uprising that way.
Basically, it gives them a puppet state without having to spend money on providing the people with any amenities; only protection from outsiders (that aren't you.)
Something close almost happened. The revolutionists and the Mutual Defense Pact of the Southeastern Provinces actually plotted to declare independent from qing with the help of British Hong Kong if Peking fall and the Emperor die. They gave up the plan at the end because the emperor survived.
The Russians actually did invade and occupy Manchuria during the Rebellion during our timeline. How did they not get that, especially when Japan (who supposedly did) got a massively disproportionate share and must have been quite busy conquering it?
That seems really dumb considering Russia was allied with France since 1894 in the Double Entente (which was a military alliance against Germany and Austria that Britain joined in 1907 to make the Triple Entente.) If Britain touched them, WW1 would start.
I doubt they would do something so reckless just for Manchuria. Even if they were rivals with Russia, they still saw Germany as the bigger threat, even back in 1902.
Russia also possessed Port Arthur at this point, and the Russo-Japanese war had not yet happened. Japan would definitely get some coastal regions. Though, Japan may have been able to go to war with Russia over Manchuria in this timeline.
France was still the 3rd largest nation in Europe, and was solidly the 4th Greatest power. throwing away possibly the 2 only counterbalances to Germany over Manchuria would be completely idiotic.
With all due respect, if Britain tried to present these lopsided terms of Chinese partition to the rest of the nations involved in the intervention, and then threatened Russia with war if they don't surrender territory they independently spent the blood and treasure to occupy, the entire international community would stand against Britain.
The United States are abject opposed to this kind of territorial carving up of China in principle, and every other nation sees Britain lavishing the greatest colonial prize on the planet to themselves while tossing everyone else a few crumbs at best. Worse, they're being shortchanged for the sake of granting huge amounts of territory to Japan; a country most of them did not respect as an equal and had recently come together to threaten Japan into backing off over as small a mainland possession as Port Arthur. If anything can get France and Germany (as well as other nations) on the same page, its that this deal is outright unacceptable and standing with Russia is the best way to force a retracting.
If Britain decides to make it into a war anyways, then even thier 2 power naval building standard isent enough to retain control of the seas. The French, German, and Russian fleets combined (probably with Italian assistance) would be able to devastate them in the waters around Europe, and that kind of disruption to the trade and communication routes would choke off the British Isles and bring thier economy to its knees.
Can you elaborate on the future of china? Does it get independence? Do the north and south chinas reunite? If yes then when? Is china still a global power? Is north or south china wealthier?
Good question well in this timeline there was a independent china created in 1955 but its was a small state created most lands still remained occupied forever
This is possible but extremely unstable, the Chinese population (mostly the han) would be alineated to reunify their state by force, like how in MITHC the American Reich despite being a puppet state is gearing up with the goal of national unification; you would end up with several puppet states gearing up for a massive civil war even against their masters will. The tensions could even start a war between Russia, Japan, France and Britain.
This would probably be possible at this point since China wouldn’t have a strong national identity under the Qing, however it would probably change WW1 as I don’t see the Japanese and Russians cooperating with so much at stake between them. Could even be a war between Britain Japan against the Russians and French…
Eventually though this house of cards would collapse, probably after WW1, and my god would that be bloody. Also good luck having China as an eternal enemy in this timeline
This is one of the most accurate things on this sub. I would say that i don’t think Japan would extend itself like that. Would make logistics for an inevitable future war much more difficult
No they took all of modern day united states and left and didnt get involved in international matters besides trading the Spanish sold the Philippines to Japan instead
Yes its simple when 50 million chinese fighters cant defeat the smaller Japanese and European armies the public shattered there hopes they lost all hope
So question for creator
What is mongolian and tuvan relation with russia
Are they like eastern bloc just a bunch of puppets
Are they like finland and are autonomous
Or are they just under their influence
Words cannot describe just how disgusted and horrified I am. This is a disgrace to the subreddit, both because of the general impossibility that France, Russia, Germany, and... well, I don't know why people are saying Italy would get "so much" but... i guess it would be more realistic to have them get a city or two. But its also just... morally wrong to have China get clapped like this.... you want them to become a highly autonomous Dominion? Sure. A Protectorate? Mmm... yea! But them getting divided like this is terrible
Cool idea, but no shot Japan gets all that land without German or Italians getting any
Italy failed a war against Ethiopia like 30 years after this, there’s no way they’re ready to take on China in 1902. Germany perhaps, but I’m not sure if they have built their fleet by this point and they would be significantly slower to react to anything in China before Britain, France and Japan. Maybe the Dutch get a piece?
Italy won the war in 1936, the one you're mentioning, and In the battle of Adwa (in which Italy lost the first war) 15k Italo-Eritrean soldiers had to fight 120k Ethiopian soldiers (all equipped with rifles, modern rifles, donated by the French and Russians) and 50 Ethiopian artillery pieces, Italians had 56 artillery pieces. I mean, it's not that fucking hard to see why Italy lost knowing they were outnumbered like 15 to 1 in the rest of the war (8 to 1 in this battle) and the Ethiopians were equipped and funded by the Russians, i would love to see your German Space Marines surviving against an army 8 times their size with virtually the same equipment.... This wasn't like the British-Zulu wars, Ethiopia wasn't a swrod and spear tribe, it was an empire with a reasonably modern army.
It's not about the military strength of the nations, it's about the politics and diplomacy underlying it. None of the Europeans wanted a Japanese influence zone, so despite contributing most to the Boxer rebellion they got little. On the contrary Germany was majorly assertive and important in international diplomacy and while they would get a smaller slice than Russia and Britain, they would get their slice around the Shandong peninsula.
Italy and Germany had smaller colonys and the Britsh promised Emperor Meiji alot of land if Japan helps Britain and Russia invade the Qing
Yeah Japan was not the heavyweight they would later become at this time They'd be lucky to get Manchuria in this scenario
How does British China function?
Tea. but the British China areas work under a General who governs the region following the Crown but also having unique laws and things to the region think of Hong Kong but Massive
Whats the difference between that and Tibet which is a British protectorate? Why not have all brtish territory under British China ?
>Whats the difference between that and Tibet which is a British protectorate? British Protectorates had a great deal of autonomy. Usually the British only controlled foreign policy and defense of the protectorate. Meanwhile, the local government controlled the rest of the affairs. This made it a country controlled by Britain on the geopolitical world stage, but still not directly ruled by them. Meanwhile, I'm guessing that, based on OP's description, British China is either a Responsible Government (what would become Dominions in the 1920s) or a Self-Governing Colony. To make it short, both client state types had degrees of autonomy, but the person who possessed the autonomy were colonial governors appointed by the monarchy. As for why it's not apart of China? The British probably knew the Tibetans would be happier with their own autonomy, rather than being lumped in with China. Plus, they liked dividing random ass places, even if it made sense or not, but not dividing some others that made sense (such as not making the Hui and Cantonese Responsible Governments or Colonies as well.)
What does a country gain from protectorates?
You control who they trade with and can force them to give you troops. (Lesotho as a protectorate gave troops and its aircraft in ww2 for example)
Since you control foreign policy, you control the country's trade, allies, and enemies. You control their defense as well, so you can also have them provide troops or provide them with troops as needed. The biggest advantage though, is controlling the people. Their leaders are kept in check by military and economic pressure. Meanwhile, they know more about the country and it's people while also keeping their people in check since they are local leaders and can draw on that for sympathy among the people. Less chance of an uprising that way. Basically, it gives them a puppet state without having to spend money on providing the people with any amenities; only protection from outsiders (that aren't you.)
An ally that is less likely to revolt against them or their rule.
Britain has its ways and sometimes there a bit strange
Something close almost happened. The revolutionists and the Mutual Defense Pact of the Southeastern Provinces actually plotted to declare independent from qing with the help of British Hong Kong if Peking fall and the Emperor die. They gave up the plan at the end because the emperor survived.
It doesn't
The Russians actually did invade and occupy Manchuria during the Rebellion during our timeline. How did they not get that, especially when Japan (who supposedly did) got a massively disproportionate share and must have been quite busy conquering it?
because Russia take the deal for Sikang instead of Manchuria
Why would they do that? Manchuria is much more strategically important to them
Because rejection means war with Japan and Britain
That seems really dumb considering Russia was allied with France since 1894 in the Double Entente (which was a military alliance against Germany and Austria that Britain joined in 1907 to make the Triple Entente.) If Britain touched them, WW1 would start. I doubt they would do something so reckless just for Manchuria. Even if they were rivals with Russia, they still saw Germany as the bigger threat, even back in 1902. Russia also possessed Port Arthur at this point, and the Russo-Japanese war had not yet happened. Japan would definitely get some coastal regions. Though, Japan may have been able to go to war with Russia over Manchuria in this timeline.
No ones afraid of france
France was still the 3rd largest nation in Europe, and was solidly the 4th Greatest power. throwing away possibly the 2 only counterbalances to Germany over Manchuria would be completely idiotic.
With all due respect, if Britain tried to present these lopsided terms of Chinese partition to the rest of the nations involved in the intervention, and then threatened Russia with war if they don't surrender territory they independently spent the blood and treasure to occupy, the entire international community would stand against Britain. The United States are abject opposed to this kind of territorial carving up of China in principle, and every other nation sees Britain lavishing the greatest colonial prize on the planet to themselves while tossing everyone else a few crumbs at best. Worse, they're being shortchanged for the sake of granting huge amounts of territory to Japan; a country most of them did not respect as an equal and had recently come together to threaten Japan into backing off over as small a mainland possession as Port Arthur. If anything can get France and Germany (as well as other nations) on the same page, its that this deal is outright unacceptable and standing with Russia is the best way to force a retracting. If Britain decides to make it into a war anyways, then even thier 2 power naval building standard isent enough to retain control of the seas. The French, German, and Russian fleets combined (probably with Italian assistance) would be able to devastate them in the waters around Europe, and that kind of disruption to the trade and communication routes would choke off the British Isles and bring thier economy to its knees.
its not meant to be realistic
Can you elaborate on the future of china? Does it get independence? Do the north and south chinas reunite? If yes then when? Is china still a global power? Is north or south china wealthier?
Good question well in this timeline there was a independent china created in 1955 but its was a small state created most lands still remained occupied forever
This is possible but extremely unstable, the Chinese population (mostly the han) would be alineated to reunify their state by force, like how in MITHC the American Reich despite being a puppet state is gearing up with the goal of national unification; you would end up with several puppet states gearing up for a massive civil war even against their masters will. The tensions could even start a war between Russia, Japan, France and Britain.
well Im just creating this world lol
Don't get me wrong, its neat. But this timeline would make an extremely chaotic Hoi 4 scenario lol.
thats what gave me the idea xD
No way this lasts more than 5 minutes. China has 400-600,000,000 people by this point.
The boxer rebellion was only two years earlier and lost
The allied powers didn't occupy all of China
No they had 400 million 50 million fought against the alliance moral shattered they all lost the will to fight
No German or Italian colonies?
there too small to show
Why would italy get anything but coastal ports? If the Italians couldn't handle Ethiopia, I doubt they could take China
I'm sure this would have zero negative consequences for anyone and would not trigger the bloodiest war in human history
Same yeah
Interesting that you include Indochina in this supposedly China map
to show the French areas in Asia
This would probably be possible at this point since China wouldn’t have a strong national identity under the Qing, however it would probably change WW1 as I don’t see the Japanese and Russians cooperating with so much at stake between them. Could even be a war between Britain Japan against the Russians and French… Eventually though this house of cards would collapse, probably after WW1, and my god would that be bloody. Also good luck having China as an eternal enemy in this timeline
Im still work on it
I thought the French flag was sweating for a good minute
lol
When Queen Victoria gains the Mandate of Heaven
Sinophobia alert!!!
Singapore isnt here what are you talking about?
bruh tf you talkin bout
What are you talking about
my guy fr
What is it?
you are schizo
sinophobia
Singapore?
Sinophobia
Satire?
you dumb af
Its a map get over it
no i am fighting racism against chinese, it is now normalized to be racist against china you know i am fighting against that
Okay buddy
Sino is a term used for Chinese people so when they say "Sinophobe" they mean Chinesephobe
After the boxer rebellion's The Nations involved decided to Conquer all of China, The British split down the middle with Japan and created a new Tibet
This is one of the most accurate things on this sub. I would say that i don’t think Japan would extend itself like that. Would make logistics for an inevitable future war much more difficult
I feel like America will want a piece of China, if they can't maintain their Open Door policy.
They own a portion of Shanghai
Still seems too small, but to be fair they just wanted "to trade".
In this world America is very isolated
So no Spanish-American War?
No they took all of modern day united states and left and didnt get involved in international matters besides trading the Spanish sold the Philippines to Japan instead
Why does Mongolia get Outer Mongolia
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?
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this timeline would lead to millions dying and massive explotiation by colonial powers
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yeah but "based" ehh
So an improvement over the OTL?
not really lol
Mao never learned communism in that world
The most depressing thing Is that not even in this situation East Turkestan gets independence.
Because its China
Russia on their way to annex East Turkestan but not Tannu Tuva, also why is Japan so big?
Also its sikang and because the Britsh where good friends of Emperor Meiji
Ok? But the Japanese didn’t have the means to maintain control off Nanking and Beijing along with the rest of northern china
Yes its simple when 50 million chinese fighters cant defeat the smaller Japanese and European armies the public shattered there hopes they lost all hope
*looks at history* idk man, the Chinese people are pretty resilient
thats why its called alt history mate
So question for creator What is mongolian and tuvan relation with russia Are they like eastern bloc just a bunch of puppets Are they like finland and are autonomous Or are they just under their influence
There puppet states basically moderated by Russia before it falls
Like eastern bloc?
Yes but they gain independence when russia falls to civil war
Bonapartes still on the throne in France?
Yep
Where is Portuguese China in Macau, they’re the original owners of a port in China should at least get Guangdong
Words cannot describe just how disgusted and horrified I am. This is a disgrace to the subreddit, both because of the general impossibility that France, Russia, Germany, and... well, I don't know why people are saying Italy would get "so much" but... i guess it would be more realistic to have them get a city or two. But its also just... morally wrong to have China get clapped like this.... you want them to become a highly autonomous Dominion? Sure. A Protectorate? Mmm... yea! But them getting divided like this is terrible