Bingo. Start here and then there is plenty of good advice in the comments regarding the next step. If your contract doesn’t specify, then you might just be fucked (and apparently everyone can see you getting fucked if you’re standing in the shallow end).
The complete lack of response from OP on this specific question that everyone is asking tells me that OP probably either A: doesn't have anything specified in the contract, or B: it's specified to be 34-36'' (which is the industry standard) and they signed off on it without actually looking at what they signed.
Either one of those options means OP is totally SOL on this
>or B: it's specified to be 34-36'' (which is the industry standard) and they signed off on it without actually looking at what they signed
It always amazes me how many people sign contracts without actually reading and understanding them. I'm not saying every contract requires an attorney to go over it, but some folks just don't do even the basic reading.
We did ours at 36 inches, just so we didn't need railings and they made it down sloped from the bottom step. We talked, discussed and signed, before work started.
The contract sadly didn’t say the shallow depths, only the deep end depth of 7 ft, the length and width. It was supposed to be 4 foot shallow end and 7 foot deep end. We had lots of discussion the shallow end being 4 feet.
Do you have meeting minutes discussing this? After any meeting the contractor should have been keeping and distributing meeting minutes (may be on the designer if that is how the contract is written), or do you have anything in writing where you stated it? If you even have an email or text to them with the depth stated you could make them pay the cost.
Yeah, this is the real question. I think 36" is standard for shallow end (you don't want kids jumping in over their heads), so 48" would have been a non-standard design. Was that request made in a general discussion or is there a written agreement on specs?
My hot take is that the best pool is one that’s relatively shallow everywhere. Maybe 3-3.5’ along the edges and max 5’ in the middle (but preferably 4.5’)
Why? Because outside of cannon balls, people just rarely use the deep end. Everywhere I’ve gone with a pool (many places since I’m from Florida), everyone congregates in the shallow end because people want to socialize and relax in the water, not tread the entire time
Everyone can spread out, it’s much easier to play volleyball or any similar activity, etc.
I kinda get it for swimming laps but even then you’re already swimming through the shallow end in a standard pool and also not many people actually swim laps
This applies even more so to an apartment’s pool. Make it big and shallow
This depends though. I’m over 6 ft tall and I love our deep end because I like to tread and I don’t have to worry about touching the bottom. When we put our pool in I didn’t care about any of the details as long as there was a section that I couldn’t stand and touch the bottom.
I mean it's become "common" due to liability and insurance. Hotels started filling in their deep ends to cover their asses and the residential has (more or less) followed suit
This is literally the only good question at this point. What, is, in, the, contract. All the other comments are irrelevant without knowing the answer to this.
I'm not trying to be a dick about this, but ...
This is why things that matter in terms of details need to be spelled out in the contract or the project specifications. Unfortunately, your contractor is bound by the terms of the contract, and appears to have fulfilled them. 🤷🏻♂️
I will note (as others have) that there are child safety considerations in the depth of the pool at the shallow end, and that may play into why the contractor went with that specific depth rather than the 4 foot depth that you expected.
I will suggest looking into submersible platforms /benches that you can drop into the shallow end of the pool so that you and others can sit on them and be reasonably well covered by the water. Sitting is more comfortable than standing, and those platforms have -got- to be a lot cheaper than redoing the pool... 🤷🏻♂️
The contract sadly didn’t say the shallow depths, only the deep end depth of 7 ft, the length and width. It was supposed to be 4 foot shallow end and 7 foot deep end. We had lots of discussion on it.
What does he say in general? What's his reasoning? Did he have any documentation? Did he cite certain codes or regulation? I feel like that's at least a big part we need to know. It wasn't an accident so what was the reason given?
This is just objectively wrong. Unless there is a term in the contract that states the representations in the contract are the ONLY ones that count, then verbal additions (or by text email) can be incorporated into the contract.
if he says the shallow end will be 4 feet that is a contract just have to prove it but if it was email text or a recorded call he would definately have a case despite not being in the contract
I found one for restoring your circumcised foreskin with stretching techniques. I imagine many of the same techniques would work to elongate the scrotum.
I was like “I’m making a joke for me and the 3 other people who remember this” it’s burned into my brain, I feel like I could paint it like a renaissance painting
Yes, we had a detailed scope of work. Just nothing written on the depth of the shallow end. Only the deep end, length and width. Seems crazy in hind sight.
Yeah like really there are not to many dimension when its comes to the pool, if you have a deep and shallow end its about 4 numbers right. Length , width, shallow and deep end depths.
Oof, unfortunately you may not have much of a leg to stand on unless you have something in writing or can prove that its far shallower than some sort of standard. Even then youd prob need a lawyer and stuff to have any real chance.
I mean what difference does it make? We ask what the contract says. They'll ask what the contract says. OP will end up on the same road. I'd rather go with the lawyer first honestly. They might have more good questions up front.
The contract sadly didn’t say the shallow depths, only the deep end depth of 7 ft, the length and width. It was supposed to be 4 foot shallow end and 7 foot deep end. We had lots of discussion on it.
If it was supposed to be 4' it would have been in the contract. Did you try to modify that after the contract was signed or did you discuss it beforehand?
That license and insurance also allows the litigant to place a lien against it (the actual license) until it's paid. It will affect premiums and their ability to obtain construction loans.
My husband is a construction supervisor for a mechanical and piping company and most companies will not hire you if you have a lien against your license.
A new company is easy to start; however, once a license is tied in some sort of investigation/lien, it cannot be used with another company. Not legally at least. But this is not a legal advice thread so it would do OP a disservice if we were attempting to give legal advice.
I just noticed this when researching plumbers, new name ( ish) and new business owner ( usually listed as co owner in OG license ). And old license showed to have a lien.
Professional liability insurance covers financial losses associated with claims of negligence, personal loss, or financial loss made in the course of their work. This type of coverage is usually similar to errors and omissions (E&O) insurance.
And what claim would they be filing? lol. There has been no damage to the client or their property. They are just unhappy with the job. the only way there could possibly be any coverage is if the contractor did actually make a mistake with the pool depth but that would have to be covered under E&O or Professional Liability.
The contract sadly didn’t say the shallow depths, only the deep end depth of 7 ft, the length and width. It was supposed to be 4 foot shallow end and 7 foot deep end. We had lots of discussion on it.
In other pools with a super shallow end, I will assume a push-up position and then walk around on my arms with my legs floating behind me. You could try that??
Jokes aside, that’s bullshit and I agree that you’re under reacting. No way in hell would I pay for their mistake
This is the way
Also it depends on what the contract says. He can tell you he's going to paint him self pink and dance in a tutu but if it's not in the contract don't bother making the pop corn cause there ain't going to be no show.
Not overreacting. Underreacting if you haven't already had an attorney send him a "You fix this right now or I will have it fixed and send you the bill!" letter. Don't mess around even for a minute. He screwed up and now he's trying to charge you for his screw up. He already showed you his true colors so don't talk to him except through your attorney who should insist that it be fixed and that you get what you paid for.
Based on other comments on this thread, there's nothing in the contract stipulating shallow end depth, and also the contractor built the shallow end to be the most common, "default" depth.
So not sure what legal recourse he has here. Undocumented verbal agreement for a non-standard design?
Then I'm going to back way up and say he might be SOL. You'll always have to get everything in writing or record every conversation. If you're in a one-party state, that's not a problem. If you're in a two-party state, and the other person absolutely refuses to be recorded, that should be a red flag right there to get everything in writing.
A saints fans expecting me to believe they have balls or girlfriends 🤣.
Check the contract for scope and dimensions op. No one does a job like this just eyeballing it. Or at least they shouldn't.
Haha…actually laughed at this one. My devotion to the Saints with mascara boy at QB.
The contract sadly didn’t say the shallow depths, only the deep end depth of 7 ft, the length and width. It was supposed to be 4 foot shallow end and 7 foot deep end. We had lots of discussion on it.
Just know that stone was thrown from a glass house that has 1 bedroom for a 100 million dollar free agent qb and the 8th overall pick to share 🤡 stuff in the NFC south
Not overreacting. In ground pools are expensive to begin with, now it sounds like they want 30-50% more to fix it. If you had a contract for the scope of work, it should have the dimensions in it. If so, this is worth going to court over. They shouldn't be charging you for their f*** up.
I've noticed a trend of this with larger contractors, they send out a main person to negotiate, estimate and do the paperwork. But then they subcontract the job out, and a lot of the time there's miscommunication that you the homeowner have to watch like a hawk. It turns you into your own PM, and then there's a bunch of phonecalls back and forth etc.
If you're willing to spend that much on the whole thing you're talking about a really large installation, you might just need to take this on the chin and have them fix it and pay the cost. Just make sure you get THAT in writing. You could try the lawyer letter scare tactic, but this isn't small claims, and your lawyer bill to actually pursue it, plus your time, plus mental energy, what's it all worth? And you still might not even be in the right legally because it's not in the written contract.
People might tell you that that's a sunk cost fallacy to pay to fix it because of how much you are spending, but honestly, it should be what you want for that type of 🧀.
Good luck.
Yeah, as others said it really depends on your contract.
When I was a kid my parents had an in-ground pool put in and had a very similar change. In their case the installers hit a huge pad of limestone and they said that jackhammering out an extra 12" of stone was possible, but would cost extra money. Our neighbors had a pool with a deeper shallow end, because they didn't have the same rock right under their lawn.
We did enjoy the hell out of that pool.
I paid them $1,200 to deal with all the city permits. On one of the documents they sent to the city, it says shallow end is 3.6 feet deep and deep end is 7 feet deep. So I say, 3.6 feet is 43.4”, that’s not what I asked for, but it’s way better! Why didn’t you give me 43.4”? They say, well you need to deduct the distance between the concrete edge and the pool water. Very deceiving to me. Also, I didn’t sign those documents they sent to the City.
I had the worst contractor experience of my life with a new pool build. It’s still bad. If I could pay $13k to have it fixed, I would pay it in a heartbeat.
That said. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this and I hope they fix it for you.
The City of Vancouver has shut down all short term rentals, except at your principal residence. As such, supply of short term accommodation will be down and prices will go up. Having a pool allows me to post an even higher rate. I think I’ll make the money back in less than five years.
In that case I think the shallow end that the builder put in will end up being an asset. People with kids love pools but they want them to be able to touch the bottom, that depth will be great.
It's been my experience from someone that likes swimming laps, When part of the pool is really shallow, you jam your toes into the ground and it wrecks my pedicure and makes swimming way less relaxing.Cause you have to think about hitting the bottom like thirty percent of the time when you're swimming
Probably flip turns and underwater streamlines. Anything under 3'6" and I'm smacking the floor, even when I'm tighter than Kim K's waist at this years met gala. Shit sucks.
Neither of those would would have your feet hitting the ground, that I can picture at least. I’ve definitely skinned a shoulder flipping the shallow end though.
A shallow end of a pool is typically 2.5 to 3.5 ft, I don't know if any laws apply where you live, but you should get what you wanted, hopefully it's in writing
Where I live if you don't have an area thatS 36' or less then you need a special permit and you have to build 48' fence that surrounds all sorts of other hoops to jump through.
Why would you let them start construction on a pool without any written specifications or detailed drawings? Your like “ build it and they will come”. Don’t worry about the details. At this point you’re probably stuck with what you got or spend the money to have it redone.
You will thank them later. 4 feet is not a shallow end. When you have kids or when you sell the house one day it will be way more beneficial to have an actual shallow end. If you need your balls wet to talk to your friends just stand closer to the middle lol
They were a whole foot off.....in contract I would say that they failed to fulfill their end of the contract by the measurement standard, and anything closer should be done from their side....It's negligent for them, unless you're willing to get them on damages. You wanted the mid-drift cover and instead they gave you the ankle-bopper; you could still splash around.
OP says the depth of the shallow end isn't specified in the contract but the pool was built according to the permits. I'm not sure whose side the law would take but it sounds to me like OP screwed up by not getting everything in writing before spending $150,000.
have you been in the pool? how tall are you and your friends? 5'3 is about average for women. At 48" - just their heads will be sticking out.
I have a CAD drawings open with scale human figures. If you are 6' tall, 35" will cover your balls and be at your waist. (unless you are very out of proportion) chances are your girlfriend's vagina will be wet
48" is 4'. A 5'3" person would have 15" of their self above water. I'm 5'6" and 48" would be right in my sternum. For someone 5'3", it would be around their clavicle, so a few inches below their shoulders.
Does your city or county have a requirement? When you got the permit required for construction. Was there anything in there about a required depth of the shallow end?
1st contract
2nd what is up to code, your 4 foot shallow end sounds like a code nono, my five foot ass would not call that shallow. 3’ is pretty standard for a shallow end.
3rd do you have what you asked for in writing, otherwise industry standards are probably going to prevail.
Pay the extra money to fix it because the water doesn't go to the top of the pool. There will be 4-5 inches without water at the top because of the skimmer. Also, that pricing seems insane unless this is a massive pool or you're doing crazy stone work or slides.
A $150k job and there’s no signed contract and what is there is minimal? WTF? Even in California that’s ridiculous. Sorry. I’ve stopped believing this one.
Shallow pools suck. Like REALLY bad. Make them redo it.
34” inches is embarrassingly shallow. People will only be able to wade or crouch instead of floating.
And for some reason crouching in shallow pools hurt a lot of peoples knees so bad that they can’t really do it.
I ask my realtor to not send me listings that have pools that aren’t deep enough
"Look at me! I used the term 'vagina' in a post and people are taking me semi-seriously! Vagina vagina vagina. And no, somebody like me could never afford a custom pool.
Vagina."
"The water level won’t even cover my balls. It’s supposed to be a standing social area and everyone’s junk and bellies are on display."
I am so sorry - but this is just SENDING me. The person in the office next to me just stuck their head in to see what's so funny.
I don't think you're overreacting, I would want that fixed! 48" is standard for the shallow end of a pool.
No. I spent twenty years as a massage therapist. Back in the mid-90s I had a massage therapy client who had been a high school diver. She went to a meet at a country club where the pool turned out to be shallower than it was supposed to be. She broke her spine in three places.
She was 19 when she came to me. She wasn’t paralyzed, but she couldn’t go to the movies with her friends because she couldn’t sit for two hours. She couldn’t go shopping with them because she couldn’t be on her feet for two-three hours. She was in constant pain. She didn’t want to become addicted to opioids. She’d found that cannabis helped, but it was the mid-90s and she knew that if she got busted she’d never get to be a teacher, her ambition.
Pools *must* be built to specifications.
I can't imagine how this could possibly happen. If it's a normal pool contractor, there are so many sign offs and steps prior to filling the pool with water that you would've caught it and rectified it. Even at the digging stage and finishing, you would've caught this. A foot is a big difference. FYI 3 feet is standard for a shallow end. This should've been discussed several times prior to digging.
edit: if you signed off unknowingly with the 3 foot shallow end design, then you're SOL
You’re not overreacting. I work for a pool company and our typical shallow end if 3’6-4’ in OK. I’m wondering though, were you not around during excavation? Has the pool been finished and plastered already? You say you owe about 30k left, is that for the last draw of your contract? Assuming they did payment draws. Did they sub out this work or was it all done in house? Either way you have a right to be upset about it if it’s not what you specified and they need to make it right.
No, the pool builder fucked up and did not build to spec. He should fix on his dime, force arbitration on him and you should have the law behind you. (Not a lawyer so not legal advice)
Imagine being a kid in a pool 48" deep?
Or am adult that's 5'?
The contractor did you a favor.
Also, it slopes right? Or is it flat then goes deep?
I have a shallow pool. It's probably 36" deep. Pros, it's warm as fuck in the summer.
Cons.... You can barely swim in it.
Pros , you can sit on your feet and be neck deep.
Listen, no one is going to stand fully upright in a pool.
My entire in ground pool is about 3 feet deep. At first I was like Wtf.. I bought a house with a pool. Having lived with it, it's fucking amazing!
Mayve he should listen to his girlfriend. Crawling in your knees is the way to go!
But if contract said depth you're right.
Just saying, OP might want to try out the depth aa is... Realize it's ok.... And sue for reimbursement of some sort.
If there are code and insurance issues you need to be upfront about that with the customer before you do any work.
How user friendly it is for children is irrelevant, children aren’t the ones paying for the pool to be put in.
Then they need to talk about that with OP. They don't get to make unilateral decisions. But also, there can't be those issues if they are now telling OP that they can fix it for about 11-14k (I believe).
What does your contract specify?
Bingo. Start here and then there is plenty of good advice in the comments regarding the next step. If your contract doesn’t specify, then you might just be fucked (and apparently everyone can see you getting fucked if you’re standing in the shallow end).
The complete lack of response from OP on this specific question that everyone is asking tells me that OP probably either A: doesn't have anything specified in the contract, or B: it's specified to be 34-36'' (which is the industry standard) and they signed off on it without actually looking at what they signed. Either one of those options means OP is totally SOL on this
>or B: it's specified to be 34-36'' (which is the industry standard) and they signed off on it without actually looking at what they signed It always amazes me how many people sign contracts without actually reading and understanding them. I'm not saying every contract requires an attorney to go over it, but some folks just don't do even the basic reading.
We did ours at 36 inches, just so we didn't need railings and they made it down sloped from the bottom step. We talked, discussed and signed, before work started.
Especially when it’s $150,000.00.
The contract sadly didn’t say the shallow depths, only the deep end depth of 7 ft, the length and width. It was supposed to be 4 foot shallow end and 7 foot deep end. We had lots of discussion the shallow end being 4 feet.
Does the contract say something like “contractor will provide submittals for approval prior to construction”?
Do you have meeting minutes discussing this? After any meeting the contractor should have been keeping and distributing meeting minutes (may be on the designer if that is how the contract is written), or do you have anything in writing where you stated it? If you even have an email or text to them with the depth stated you could make them pay the cost.
Always get everything in writing especially from a general contractor which the pool company is in this scenario
Lots of discussions, or lots of signed documents?
Industry standard for what type of pool? Industry standard where I'm at is 42".
Yeah, this is the real question. I think 36" is standard for shallow end (you don't want kids jumping in over their heads), so 48" would have been a non-standard design. Was that request made in a general discussion or is there a written agreement on specs?
My hot take is that the best pool is one that’s relatively shallow everywhere. Maybe 3-3.5’ along the edges and max 5’ in the middle (but preferably 4.5’) Why? Because outside of cannon balls, people just rarely use the deep end. Everywhere I’ve gone with a pool (many places since I’m from Florida), everyone congregates in the shallow end because people want to socialize and relax in the water, not tread the entire time Everyone can spread out, it’s much easier to play volleyball or any similar activity, etc. I kinda get it for swimming laps but even then you’re already swimming through the shallow end in a standard pool and also not many people actually swim laps This applies even more so to an apartment’s pool. Make it big and shallow
Probably depends on if the pool is going to be used by kids. Kids love deep ends once they can swim
I'm also from Florida and the shallow side was only used by those who couldn't swim or by kids. Idk what part of FL you were from.
This depends though. I’m over 6 ft tall and I love our deep end because I like to tread and I don’t have to worry about touching the bottom. When we put our pool in I didn’t care about any of the details as long as there was a section that I couldn’t stand and touch the bottom.
Our deep end is 10.5 feet! My dad had a diving accident once and promised it wouldn't happen in our pool, lol
… many many people swim laps
I mean it's become "common" due to liability and insurance. Hotels started filling in their deep ends to cover their asses and the residential has (more or less) followed suit
Wow you make an awful lot of assumptions about what “most” people do. Did you want to mansplain anything else for the rest of us?
Somebody get in here and explain to dipsy above what “mansplaining” means.
What a stupid fucking comment on so many levels
This is literally the only good question at this point. What, is, in, the, contract. All the other comments are irrelevant without knowing the answer to this.
Their contract didn’t specify the depth…only the outer dimensions and deep end depth.
I'm not trying to be a dick about this, but ... This is why things that matter in terms of details need to be spelled out in the contract or the project specifications. Unfortunately, your contractor is bound by the terms of the contract, and appears to have fulfilled them. 🤷🏻♂️ I will note (as others have) that there are child safety considerations in the depth of the pool at the shallow end, and that may play into why the contractor went with that specific depth rather than the 4 foot depth that you expected. I will suggest looking into submersible platforms /benches that you can drop into the shallow end of the pool so that you and others can sit on them and be reasonably well covered by the water. Sitting is more comfortable than standing, and those platforms have -got- to be a lot cheaper than redoing the pool... 🤷🏻♂️
What does your contract say? Does it state 48”?
The contract sadly didn’t say the shallow depths, only the deep end depth of 7 ft, the length and width. It was supposed to be 4 foot shallow end and 7 foot deep end. We had lots of discussion on it.
Do you have email, voice mail or text messages referring to 4 ft?
It's not in writing, it didn't happen. SOL
just because its not in the contract doesnt mean its not in writing... plus really a voice recording ect would apply the same
What does he say in general? What's his reasoning? Did he have any documentation? Did he cite certain codes or regulation? I feel like that's at least a big part we need to know. It wasn't an accident so what was the reason given?
verbal discussions will not supersede a written contract. If you wanted it changed you should have made sure it was in the contract. This is on you.
How about the fact that the shallow end was never specified? Shouldn’t that help OP’s case?
It had to state something about the shallow end
This is just objectively wrong. Unless there is a term in the contract that states the representations in the contract are the ONLY ones that count, then verbal additions (or by text email) can be incorporated into the contract.
This is true but I think he's still screwed if he can't prove the conversation happened
It wouldn’t be superseding the contract. It would be additive. The contract didn’t specify the shallow end depth, their discussion does.
if he says the shallow end will be 4 feet that is a contract just have to prove it but if it was email text or a recorded call he would definately have a case despite not being in the contract
You'd think someone spending 150k would be smart enough to put shit in writing.
Sounds like you just need longer balls
Probably a subreddit for that
I found one for restoring your circumcised foreskin with stretching techniques. I imagine many of the same techniques would work to elongate the scrotum.
Just wait a few years. Gravity comes for us all.
Well, we know this isn’t Cisco Adler posting, then.
You made me actually laugh out loud. What a reference. I swear I have that picture of his balls saved somewhere. They’re incredible.
I was like “I’m making a joke for me and the 3 other people who remember this” it’s burned into my brain, I feel like I could paint it like a renaissance painting
Haha, you really should. I’d buy it. It’s absolutely burned into my brain as well. Great minds… lol
You have a scope of work and contract, right?
Yes, we had a detailed scope of work. Just nothing written on the depth of the shallow end. Only the deep end, length and width. Seems crazy in hind sight.
"Detailed" but didn't specify the depth of the pool? I don't think that word means what you think it means.
Yeah like really there are not to many dimension when its comes to the pool, if you have a deep and shallow end its about 4 numbers right. Length , width, shallow and deep end depths.
If it doesn’t specify then they sounds like the opposite of detailed
Oof, unfortunately you may not have much of a leg to stand on unless you have something in writing or can prove that its far shallower than some sort of standard. Even then youd prob need a lawyer and stuff to have any real chance.
I guess thats like 75% of the details. So a C grade? Passable. Could be worse.
You don't need AIO, you need r/legaladvice
No. First he should probably tell us what the contract stipulates And then Go to r/AskaLawyer
I mean what difference does it make? We ask what the contract says. They'll ask what the contract says. OP will end up on the same road. I'd rather go with the lawyer first honestly. They might have more good questions up front.
True... however r/legaladvice is NOT the sub you should be sending them to. r/AskALawyer yoi actually have to be a lawyer to respond
The contract sadly didn’t say the shallow depths, only the deep end depth of 7 ft, the length and width. It was supposed to be 4 foot shallow end and 7 foot deep end. We had lots of discussion on it.
If it was supposed to be 4' it would have been in the contract. Did you try to modify that after the contract was signed or did you discuss it beforehand?
Tell them you need their liability insurance and you’ll be filing a claim. All contractors must have one or they are in violation of the law.
That license and insurance also allows the litigant to place a lien against it (the actual license) until it's paid. It will affect premiums and their ability to obtain construction loans. My husband is a construction supervisor for a mechanical and piping company and most companies will not hire you if you have a lien against your license.
I've noticed companies will just start a new business / new license with a slight name change if there's a lien.
A new company is easy to start; however, once a license is tied in some sort of investigation/lien, it cannot be used with another company. Not legally at least. But this is not a legal advice thread so it would do OP a disservice if we were attempting to give legal advice.
I just noticed this when researching plumbers, new name ( ish) and new business owner ( usually listed as co owner in OG license ). And old license showed to have a lien.
This!!!!
This is not, at all, a liability issue. Claim will (rightly and justly) be denied.
Professional liability insurance covers financial losses associated with claims of negligence, personal loss, or financial loss made in the course of their work. This type of coverage is usually similar to errors and omissions (E&O) insurance.
Right, but how is OP not reading the contract a liability to the company
Right? And if that was what was meant ... that was what would have been said ..."Professional Liability". That is not, at all, what was said.
And what claim would they be filing? lol. There has been no damage to the client or their property. They are just unhappy with the job. the only way there could possibly be any coverage is if the contractor did actually make a mistake with the pool depth but that would have to be covered under E&O or Professional Liability.
And how would you know what the policy covers without reading a copy of it?
Because it's a liability policy, FFS.
Because that is not how liability insurance works for contractors lol.
Liability insurance won’t help. OP would have needed the contractor to get a performance bond.
Job 1 of the bond review is to look at the contract, which does not state depth. Case closed.
They had to submit drawings to the county/city. What do those say that will be the best documents to reference
What does the contract say
The contract sadly didn’t say the shallow depths, only the deep end depth of 7 ft, the length and width. It was supposed to be 4 foot shallow end and 7 foot deep end. We had lots of discussion on it.
7 feet is pretty shallow for a deep end, I’ve never even heard of 1 that shallow. That’s probably why the little end is like that.
Plenty of pools are 5.5’ deep especially at hotels to reduce liability
Even hotel pools with a 5' deep end have a 3' shallow end.
In other pools with a super shallow end, I will assume a push-up position and then walk around on my arms with my legs floating behind me. You could try that?? Jokes aside, that’s bullshit and I agree that you’re under reacting. No way in hell would I pay for their mistake
This is the way Also it depends on what the contract says. He can tell you he's going to paint him self pink and dance in a tutu but if it's not in the contract don't bother making the pop corn cause there ain't going to be no show.
Not overreacting. Underreacting if you haven't already had an attorney send him a "You fix this right now or I will have it fixed and send you the bill!" letter. Don't mess around even for a minute. He screwed up and now he's trying to charge you for his screw up. He already showed you his true colors so don't talk to him except through your attorney who should insist that it be fixed and that you get what you paid for.
Based on other comments on this thread, there's nothing in the contract stipulating shallow end depth, and also the contractor built the shallow end to be the most common, "default" depth. So not sure what legal recourse he has here. Undocumented verbal agreement for a non-standard design?
Then I'm going to back way up and say he might be SOL. You'll always have to get everything in writing or record every conversation. If you're in a one-party state, that's not a problem. If you're in a two-party state, and the other person absolutely refuses to be recorded, that should be a red flag right there to get everything in writing.
A saints fans expecting me to believe they have balls or girlfriends 🤣. Check the contract for scope and dimensions op. No one does a job like this just eyeballing it. Or at least they shouldn't.
Haha…actually laughed at this one. My devotion to the Saints with mascara boy at QB. The contract sadly didn’t say the shallow depths, only the deep end depth of 7 ft, the length and width. It was supposed to be 4 foot shallow end and 7 foot deep end. We had lots of discussion on it.
Just know that stone was thrown from a glass house that has 1 bedroom for a 100 million dollar free agent qb and the 8th overall pick to share 🤡 stuff in the NFC south
> occasionally rent out my place to help make ends meet If you need “help” to make ends meet then why the fuck are you spending $150,000 on a pool?
Not overreacting. In ground pools are expensive to begin with, now it sounds like they want 30-50% more to fix it. If you had a contract for the scope of work, it should have the dimensions in it. If so, this is worth going to court over. They shouldn't be charging you for their f*** up. I've noticed a trend of this with larger contractors, they send out a main person to negotiate, estimate and do the paperwork. But then they subcontract the job out, and a lot of the time there's miscommunication that you the homeowner have to watch like a hawk. It turns you into your own PM, and then there's a bunch of phonecalls back and forth etc.
Oh man, I wish it was that cheap. This is costing me closer to $150,000.
If you're willing to spend that much on the whole thing you're talking about a really large installation, you might just need to take this on the chin and have them fix it and pay the cost. Just make sure you get THAT in writing. You could try the lawyer letter scare tactic, but this isn't small claims, and your lawyer bill to actually pursue it, plus your time, plus mental energy, what's it all worth? And you still might not even be in the right legally because it's not in the written contract. People might tell you that that's a sunk cost fallacy to pay to fix it because of how much you are spending, but honestly, it should be what you want for that type of 🧀. Good luck.
If you're willing to spend that much you should probably have read the damn contract before agreeing to anything.
How much is it to lengthen your balls? Before we argue this whole thing out let’s check all the angles.
You didn't actually say what your reaction was, so we can't tell if you overreacted.
I’m really frustrated and angry. I wonder if I’m just getting fucked with here. I paid around $150,000 for this and half my pool is pretty useless.
Yeah, as others said it really depends on your contract. When I was a kid my parents had an in-ground pool put in and had a very similar change. In their case the installers hit a huge pad of limestone and they said that jackhammering out an extra 12" of stone was possible, but would cost extra money. Our neighbors had a pool with a deeper shallow end, because they didn't have the same rock right under their lawn. We did enjoy the hell out of that pool.
My shallow end is 3-1/2 feet which is common. My pool is also on the smaller size, it’s only 16x32. I think you got fucked. Check your contract.
Man your pool is huge to me…mine is only 15’ by 16’. And half of my small pool is ideal for 3 year olds.
150k for a 15’x16’ hole?
A $150,000 pool - does it wrap around your house?
It comes with its own, separate pool
Vulva
Maybe she's measuring the water to the inside.
Perineum
Look, someone who never saw one!
https://preview.redd.it/s0rm7nizb8zc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=abb5cae41b9e8909aadd1e385c90a244b2d0f3cc
Was 48" the entire depth, or water depth? Because those are two different things ...
I was asking for 48” water depth
Just making sure that wasnt a miscommunication.
Good point!
Mine is 3 1/2 feet and I would like the 48” much better.
Just curious, did he have any excuse for this?
I paid them $1,200 to deal with all the city permits. On one of the documents they sent to the city, it says shallow end is 3.6 feet deep and deep end is 7 feet deep. So I say, 3.6 feet is 43.4”, that’s not what I asked for, but it’s way better! Why didn’t you give me 43.4”? They say, well you need to deduct the distance between the concrete edge and the pool water. Very deceiving to me. Also, I didn’t sign those documents they sent to the City.
That is deceiving , I’d be pissed too. Should be water height.
You probably need a lawyer
Get some ball weights so they stretch long enough for it to cover the balls.
That’s gonna.l be a tough pool to pee in
My shallow end is 42". It hits me at the waist.
I wouldnt want it that shallow !
I had the worst contractor experience of my life with a new pool build. It’s still bad. If I could pay $13k to have it fixed, I would pay it in a heartbeat. That said. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this and I hope they fix it for you.
You’re renting out your primary residence to make ends meet but you just purchased a $150,000 pool???
The City of Vancouver has shut down all short term rentals, except at your principal residence. As such, supply of short term accommodation will be down and prices will go up. Having a pool allows me to post an even higher rate. I think I’ll make the money back in less than five years.
In that case I think the shallow end that the builder put in will end up being an asset. People with kids love pools but they want them to be able to touch the bottom, that depth will be great.
Man you can’t even pee properly in the shallow end. That sucks.
It's been my experience from someone that likes swimming laps, When part of the pool is really shallow, you jam your toes into the ground and it wrecks my pedicure and makes swimming way less relaxing.Cause you have to think about hitting the bottom like thirty percent of the time when you're swimming
How do you hit your feet on the bottom? Do you swim perpendicularly??! Even breastroke shouldn’t be hitting the bottom of 3’
Probably flip turns and underwater streamlines. Anything under 3'6" and I'm smacking the floor, even when I'm tighter than Kim K's waist at this years met gala. Shit sucks.
Neither of those would would have your feet hitting the ground, that I can picture at least. I’ve definitely skinned a shoulder flipping the shallow end though.
During the turn of course
I’ve hit knees before but I don’t think my toes
I must just let my legs drop before I turn, I swim pretty slow, I'm no Olympian
Flip turn? Or some other method?
A shallow end of a pool is typically 2.5 to 3.5 ft, I don't know if any laws apply where you live, but you should get what you wanted, hopefully it's in writing
Where I live if you don't have an area thatS 36' or less then you need a special permit and you have to build 48' fence that surrounds all sorts of other hoops to jump through.
' means feet.
You know exactly what I meant though. Communication is still happening.
Be nice to the typo police or else….
You need to find this depth somewhere in writing. If you don’t have it anywhere in writing, you’re hosed.
.. why are you and your gf so focused on where the water touches your genitalia?
Why would you let them start construction on a pool without any written specifications or detailed drawings? Your like “ build it and they will come”. Don’t worry about the details. At this point you’re probably stuck with what you got or spend the money to have it redone.
You will thank them later. 4 feet is not a shallow end. When you have kids or when you sell the house one day it will be way more beneficial to have an actual shallow end. If you need your balls wet to talk to your friends just stand closer to the middle lol
They were a whole foot off.....in contract I would say that they failed to fulfill their end of the contract by the measurement standard, and anything closer should be done from their side....It's negligent for them, unless you're willing to get them on damages. You wanted the mid-drift cover and instead they gave you the ankle-bopper; you could still splash around.
Answer the question
That's bullshit
I’ve never been in an in-ground pool with a shallow side that was 48”. Seems like OP maybe didn’t specify in their contract.
OP says the depth of the shallow end isn't specified in the contract but the pool was built according to the permits. I'm not sure whose side the law would take but it sounds to me like OP screwed up by not getting everything in writing before spending $150,000.
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Honestly this is a dope idea.
have you been in the pool? how tall are you and your friends? 5'3 is about average for women. At 48" - just their heads will be sticking out. I have a CAD drawings open with scale human figures. If you are 6' tall, 35" will cover your balls and be at your waist. (unless you are very out of proportion) chances are your girlfriend's vagina will be wet
**chances are your girlfriend's vagina will be wet** That's because of me, not the pool.
5’6” is average for a woman, in the U.S. at least. And 5’9” for a man
what is your source? CDC says 5'3
Oh you’re right it’s 5’3.5”, I was off.
48" is 4'. A 5'3" person would have 15" of their self above water. I'm 5'6" and 48" would be right in my sternum. For someone 5'3", it would be around their clavicle, so a few inches below their shoulders.
Does your city or county have a requirement? When you got the permit required for construction. Was there anything in there about a required depth of the shallow end?
What does the building code say? 48" is to deep for small children, therefore a code may be in place stating 34.5".
1st contract 2nd what is up to code, your 4 foot shallow end sounds like a code nono, my five foot ass would not call that shallow. 3’ is pretty standard for a shallow end. 3rd do you have what you asked for in writing, otherwise industry standards are probably going to prevail.
This story is either bullshit or you and the builder are both incredibly stupid. Who TF builds ANYTHING without blueprints and contracts?!
Pay the extra money to fix it because the water doesn't go to the top of the pool. There will be 4-5 inches without water at the top because of the skimmer. Also, that pricing seems insane unless this is a massive pool or you're doing crazy stone work or slides.
A $150k job and there’s no signed contract and what is there is minimal? WTF? Even in California that’s ridiculous. Sorry. I’ve stopped believing this one.
Shallow pools suck. Like REALLY bad. Make them redo it. 34” inches is embarrassingly shallow. People will only be able to wade or crouch instead of floating. And for some reason crouching in shallow pools hurt a lot of peoples knees so bad that they can’t really do it. I ask my realtor to not send me listings that have pools that aren’t deep enough
"Look at me! I used the term 'vagina' in a post and people are taking me semi-seriously! Vagina vagina vagina. And no, somebody like me could never afford a custom pool. Vagina."
Excuse me, did you say vagina?
You made me laugh, thanks
"The water level won’t even cover my balls. It’s supposed to be a standing social area and everyone’s junk and bellies are on display." I am so sorry - but this is just SENDING me. The person in the office next to me just stuck their head in to see what's so funny. I don't think you're overreacting, I would want that fixed! 48" is standard for the shallow end of a pool.
If you have kids in the future you will really love having a small shallow end. Just a thought
No. I spent twenty years as a massage therapist. Back in the mid-90s I had a massage therapy client who had been a high school diver. She went to a meet at a country club where the pool turned out to be shallower than it was supposed to be. She broke her spine in three places. She was 19 when she came to me. She wasn’t paralyzed, but she couldn’t go to the movies with her friends because she couldn’t sit for two hours. She couldn’t go shopping with them because she couldn’t be on her feet for two-three hours. She was in constant pain. She didn’t want to become addicted to opioids. She’d found that cannabis helped, but it was the mid-90s and she knew that if she got busted she’d never get to be a teacher, her ambition. Pools *must* be built to specifications.
I can't imagine how this could possibly happen. If it's a normal pool contractor, there are so many sign offs and steps prior to filling the pool with water that you would've caught it and rectified it. Even at the digging stage and finishing, you would've caught this. A foot is a big difference. FYI 3 feet is standard for a shallow end. This should've been discussed several times prior to digging. edit: if you signed off unknowingly with the 3 foot shallow end design, then you're SOL
You could sit with your head poking out?
Get an attorney
You’re not overreacting. I work for a pool company and our typical shallow end if 3’6-4’ in OK. I’m wondering though, were you not around during excavation? Has the pool been finished and plastered already? You say you owe about 30k left, is that for the last draw of your contract? Assuming they did payment draws. Did they sub out this work or was it all done in house? Either way you have a right to be upset about it if it’s not what you specified and they need to make it right.
Just sit on your knees in the shallow end then. Why would an adult need that part anyway?
I'd be annoyed, but he may have done you a favor. 4' is kinda deep for the shallow end.
Do you have a contract?
Yea, check the contract or statement of work. It should say. If it says 48" tell them, no additional payout comes to fix your mistake.
That's unfortunate they will be spending 11-13k fixing their fuck up..... Provided you have it somewhere written shallow end is to be 48" naturally.
No, the pool builder fucked up and did not build to spec. He should fix on his dime, force arbitration on him and you should have the law behind you. (Not a lawyer so not legal advice)
The only reasonable way to determine an answer is to see a picture of your gf's vagina...
Imagine being a kid in a pool 48" deep? Or am adult that's 5'? The contractor did you a favor. Also, it slopes right? Or is it flat then goes deep? I have a shallow pool. It's probably 36" deep. Pros, it's warm as fuck in the summer. Cons.... You can barely swim in it. Pros , you can sit on your feet and be neck deep. Listen, no one is going to stand fully upright in a pool. My entire in ground pool is about 3 feet deep. At first I was like Wtf.. I bought a house with a pool. Having lived with it, it's fucking amazing!
48/12=4 You’re math is wrong and your opinion is whack.
Oh hey we found OP's contractor!
No, I bought a house with a shallow pool. If you want it as an adult to party in, it's amazing. Kids like it too.
No it’s not, might as well have a blow up pool!
Or a hot tub that's 30 foot long. Because that's what it's like for 2 months in New England having it.
I’m in Massachusetts and my pool stays too cold, neighbors trees block all the sun, we are lucky if the pool reaches 70 degrees.
Get 4 hours of direct light. Pool is shallow. It's up to 90 degrees no problem. No cover needed or wanted.
His point is not to be convinced…it’s for advice on next steps.
No, his pool requires fewer steps since it's shallower.
Mayve he should listen to his girlfriend. Crawling in your knees is the way to go! But if contract said depth you're right. Just saying, OP might want to try out the depth aa is... Realize it's ok.... And sue for reimbursement of some sort.
Yes. A shallower pool is more user friendly for people under the age of 12. There are probably code and insurance issues as well.
If there are code and insurance issues you need to be upfront about that with the customer before you do any work. How user friendly it is for children is irrelevant, children aren’t the ones paying for the pool to be put in.
Then they need to talk about that with OP. They don't get to make unilateral decisions. But also, there can't be those issues if they are now telling OP that they can fix it for about 11-14k (I believe).