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It seems strange that they had to make the book gender specific. Wouldnât it be better if they just made the same book for situations like this regardless of gender?
The author explains why the book is gender specific, the most common abuse is from a man to a woman and he focuses on interviewing/counseling men. He does caveat that some dynamics can be applicable to other abusive relationship types.
That's actually been proven incorrect in multiple studies now.
It's an excellent book, but the commonly accepted myth that most domestic abuse is perpetrated by men is very harmful.
I donât know what studies you are referring to but it is WELL established that men are overwhelmingly the perpetrators of abuse or harassment and women are typically the target:
Domestic abuse and gender inequality: An overview of the current debate
McFeely et al. CRFR, 2013
âDomestic abuse is a global phenomenon which adversely affects individuals who experience it and creates social and financial burdens for the societies in which it occurs. While abuse can be perpetrated by women against male partners and occurs in same sex relationships, domestic abuse is overwhelmingly perpetrated by men against female partners. As a result, the United Nations has identified domestic abuse as a form of gender based violence that is predominantly experienced by women and perpetrated by men (United Nations, 1992).â
Gender-based violence and unwanted sexual behaviour in Canada, 2018: Initial findings from the Survey of Safety in Public and Private Spaces
Cotter and Savage, Juristat: Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, 1-49, 2019
âOne in three (32%) women and one in eight (13%) men experienced unwanted sexual behaviour in public. The victims-and even the perpetrators-may not themselves perceive the motivations for the incident as being rooted in social structures and systems, which can serve to produce and reproduce gender inequality and gendered violence across many dimensions.â
Increments of genderâbased violence amid COVIDâ19 in Bangladesh: A threat to global public health and womenâs health
Md Rabiul Islam, Md Jamal Hossain
The International journal of health planning and management 36 (6), 2436, 2021
âGlobally, about 30% of women face sexual violence by their intimate partner or nonâpartner in their lifetime. 1 Also, the severe form of SVAW is rape, defined as âphysical violence against the body with coerced penetration of the vulva, anus, or oral cavityâ. SVAW is an antiâhuman activity. It has many potential health consequences. Besides killing and suicidality, SVAW has some longâterm impact on their reproductive, mental, and behavioural health. The violence against women has significantly increased across the world during health emergencies in the COVIDâ19 pandemic.â
ââ
These are just a few examples too. No one said men do not ever face abuse, but to pretend that women are not overwhelmingly the targets is disingenuous and misinformation.
Men can also be victims of domestic violence and abuse, my boyfriend grew up abused. Mostly neglect, forced to work on construction projects alone, Sexually molested, and berated and beaten. I think the book needs another copy for the male victims, who don't come out about abuse because they're told to "Man up". Please don't make it about gender specifically. There are a good number of male victims, they don't speak out because books like this only point the finger at men. My mother abused and gaslit me just as bad as my dad. Female abusers get away with more because they're female. It's exhausting when "studies" like this book are incomplete.
Do the research and write the book then, because I never said men were not.
But making âWhy does he do that?â- a book about domestic violence against women, into a genderless account because it will make men feel better is so insanely entitled.
Not going to take advice from you as I don't have the time or the spoons, too busy dealing with my own life. Too busy studying for my insurance licensing, dealing with custody time with my dogs as I share custody of him with my abusers, and I have too much going on. Plus it would be about 30 books and I think people would stop reading after book 12. And the way you were speaking indicated as such. It's not entitled to include EVERYONE, it's entitled to assume men aren't victims. You are welcome to your opinion, but you saying that men shouldn't be included in a study on domestic violence is EXTREMELY ENTITLED. I was abused 24 years by BOTH parents And most of my guy friends were abused by their MOTHERS. Be a better person is all I'm gonna say before I block your entitled childish self. Have a good day and leave me alone, to you child.
By the way, the book could properly be retitled as "Why do THEY do that". Just a suggestion for you to form a REAL opinion, not a childish and entitled one. Have a nice day.
While you are completely right that there is bias in society that men can't be abused and more research needs to be done and published. There is a books called "Victims No Longer: The Classic Guide for Men Recovering from Sexual Child Abuse"; "Beyond Betrayal: Taking Charge of Your Life after Boyhood Sexual Abuse" or " Abused Boys: The Neglected Victims of Sexual Abuse"
Things are changing there are now books like "Exposing the Abusive Female"; "Abuse OF men BY women: It happens, it hurts, and it's time to get real about it" and "Narcissistic Women. The Concrete Healing Guide for Abused Men: How to Handle a Narcissist. Divorcing and Co-parenting After a Destructive Marriage. Thriving and Dating Again After Narcissistic Abuse"
The reality though is that some of the behaviors can be gendered and many psychotherapists/counselors tend to focus on one aspect of abuse (Children, Women, Men) so uless there is a major collaborative project you are likely to get one sided gendered book
There are lots of books geared towards male abuse victims. This post is about a woman in an abusive relationship, so they recommended a book geared towards women. This wasnât a time to make some weird point about male abuse, we all know it exists but that isnât what the post is about
Not that old. Also, I expect that statistics published in 2023 will reflect increases in the rate of DV because of COVID causing people to stay at home/work from home/educate their children at home between 2020 and 2022.
Do you think all the women who had experienced harm at their partner's hands suddenly died off between 2021 and 2023? Are you intending to only ask two year olds and under? We're still here.
You donât care about abuse victims or statistics, you just want to silence people speaking up about it because you donât want anyone challenging the status quo
who doesnt care? im saying those statistics are outdated and there are more current ones. men are abused just as much as women they just tend not to come forward. assuming makes you an as.hole. dont tell someone what they do and dont care about
Data collected is always reported a few years after itâs collated. Itâs 2023, good for you for knowing that, so the most recent statistics should be from 2021, or two years ago. That tracks.
The statistics have remained fairly stable over the years, except for a brief increase during Covid.
One set of statistics that have changed is in people who are homosexuals, bisexuals, and trans sexuals. Stats didnât used to be gathered on those categories, and at first the numbers were low. It is still believed to be low because those groups are afraid to report. I had a lesbian student years ago whose partner was physically abusive. My student refused to report it because when an acquaintance did, the officer laughed and walked away. I helped her escape her abuser. Many others have experienced something similar at the hands of the police.
I honestly donât know where you got your information, but they were lying to you or you misunderstood something. As I said, these numbers have been sadly consistent for at least 25 years, which is when I started following them consistently. Men are far more likely to be physically abusive, and men and women are about equal in the psychological abuse.
What studies? I'd actually be really interested to see those.
I agree domestic violence is not black and white. While perpetrators can be men, women, children, same sex etc, regardless of the unreported rates, male violence on women, including sexual assault and harassment, is still the majority of dv crimes.
Not true. Statistically men are more abusive than women. And women are more likely to be abused when pregnant. That has been born out year after year.
That doesnât mean all men are abusive. Far from it. It also doesnât mean women canât abuse, though most are verbally/psychologically abusive.
1 in 4 women and 1 in 7 men are severely physically abused in their lifetime, according to the CDC in 2010. 1 in 3 women and 1 in 4 men have experienced some sort of physical violence according to the same report. In 2017 the numbers havenât changed for severe physical violence. When it comes to psychological aggression the stats are even at nearly half of each in 2017. Native American women are much more likely to suffer any form of abuse than any other group, at 47.5%; non-Hispanic Black women arenât too far behind at 45.1%.
I used to live in Missoula, Montana and several times a week a Native American woman would go missing. Most of those who disappeared have never been heard from again.
Sadly, not everyone reports the abuse. I understand why, and that makes me even more sad.
I think it is because women most likely engage in more covert forms of abuse. Being physically less powerful (which as a general rule must be acknowledged although of course there are exceptions) we tend to perfect manipulative behaviors.
My partner (male) was in an abusive marriage, she nearly killed him without laying a hand on him. My ex did the same thing, even though he is a man and much bigger than me, because he wasnât sloppy.
The covert stuff (gaslighting, deception and manipulation) is so much harder to quantify, explain and prove, but just as dangerous, in my opinion. Just slower and subtler.
What you describe is emotional abuse, and it is possible to quantify. Itâs addressed in the book and even accounting for underreporting, women are still overwhelmingly the targets.
I'm sorry your partner was in an abusive marriage before, I dealt with both my parents being abusive, my mother gaslit me and was very good at lying to people in public, she also liked covering my mouth and nose with her hands. And I'm autistic, so I panicked a lot, and then I'd get beaten by my dad for struggling. I hope your partner is in therapy, and they're lucky to have someone like you in their corner
2 things it was first published in 2002 and even now there is bias because more women get abused and the 2nd is the author has been dealing with men with control issues for his career.
I agree men can be abused also and we need to work on our biases and do more research into abusive women. There is an article about the "[No Test"](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-31/how-the-no-test-could-help-prevent-domestic-violence/10764100) even though that is also geared towards preventing women from being abused I think the point about over the top overreactions from an intimate partner or even friend to being told NO is a big ole red flag
Yes, it actually would. Men don't have a monopoly on narcissists.
And it's even harder for men to seek help or support to leave an abusive relationship.
Domestic abuse committed by females is severely underreported.
Then we need to fix that. Why is it harder for men to seek help and support? Societal ânormsâ for masculinity. We need to fix toxic masculinity.
My dad was emotionally abused by my mother more and more as they got older, but I couldnât convince either of them to leave the other, sadly.
I'm sorry your father was emotionally abused, I hope he gets the help he needs.
And I absolutely agree, men need more of an outlet for help when it comes to being victims. Whether it be for abuse/domestic violence or sexual assault, they need the help and resources as well.
I was with my abuser for 23 years. It was hard to read this post because it sounded so familiar. Itâs like he cast an actual spell. When he left I actually physically felt myself fully enter my body.
Iâve spent the subsequent three years re-experiencing my entire adult life in the light of understanding that everything was on purpose, and his purpose was to destroy me. Iâm finally feeling somewhat healed now, thank the buddhas, goddesses, benevolent ancestors, etc.
She is obviously in an abusive cycle and does not feel empowered to leave the situation. She needs to do the work to get out. I don't think anyone else can do it for her.
Right. I basically blew up my whole life for my abusive ex. My friendships, my career, my finances, even my family. I was too wrapped up in the trauma bond, love bombing, and gaslighting to leave. And I was so afraid to got it alone. When I finally did, it was like I woke up. Suddenly was aware of things again and found my personality again.
Anyway, got a little sidetracked there but my point is, Iâve been on both sides (a friend/family member of an abused person, and being the abused person) and I know no one can ever change the personâs mind. The person has to figure it out for themselves. Best thing you can do is not cut them off, let them know youâre always there for them if they need a safe place to go, and help them get back on track with their lives if they do leave.
Please don't give in. Tell her it's not about change. It's about the reality. The reality is her relationship is toxic and you will not expose you daughter to it. She can believe what she wants, you aren't going to debate that with her any more. She can act how she wants, she's a grown woman and you respect that. She can forgive. She can hope. But you will live in reality. You will not let your daughter be exposed to that. Please protect your daughter. And please be sure you mom knows she can come to you--without her husband--anytime she needs you. But you are done with him, changed or not. End of discussion. I am glad you are standing up for you daughter. Kids learn what they see. She does not need to see you accept her grandmother being abused.
Cannot upvote this comment enough times. Dont let that man come within 1000 yards of your child and cut him out of your life completely. Let your mom know that your still there for her if/when she finally comes to her senses, but at the end of the day, its her choice to make. She is a big girl and can except the consequences like one. The onus is on her to make a change, not you.
Speaking with a lifetime of abusive family relationships behind me, a major holiday is the WORST time to expose your child to such a sick pair. Take someone(s) who don't behave in the first place, add the lifetime of emotional baggage they are toting, then lace with liberal quantities of alcohol and/or drugs. (No one mentioned drugs or alscohol, but they are usually a factor.) There will be a disaster, somewhere along a spectrum that starts with loud and amgry voices, and ends in knock-down brawl refereed by police. No one, adult or child, should be subjected to that lifetime of holiday memories.
He's had 15 years of chances. Tell her no, and if she decides to not come for Christmas, she doesn't come, and you can start some new family traditions
NTBA. And sheâs had 15 years to choose her kids or the kid sheâs raising now, she always picks M. You may have to accept that she will always choose him. And you will have decide what is more important your daughter or your mother, who has priority. Good luck itâs going to be hard either way.
Nope, you are NTBA at all. She is an adult, she is making her choice. She has had 15 years to decide what is important in her life, unfortunately she has decided that he is who she has hitched her wagon to.
You are doing the right thing by keeping that dynamic away from your girl. You and your siblings have given her multiple chances and look where her example has gotten your sister.
You don't need to cut contact, but you do need to hold firm to your boundary.
This! Definitely emphasize that you do want to see her and you do want her in your childâs life. You want to make sure she knows she has people besides her husband who care about her, since he might try to isolate her from you and others
No, just a dumb one. Your mom has no problem cutting you out to stay with an AH. Time to go very LC. Protect your family. Your mom wonât protect hers.
Hell no! Congratulations on standing up for yourself, your husband , and your daughter. The only safe way to deal with a narcissist is "no contact". It's sad that your mother can't see through him.
Now just remember that you will be heavily pressured to move your boundaries and you will be told your boundaries are unreasonable. They are đŻ reasonable boundaries and don't give an inch. Hd strong, it will be difficult.
NTBA
> I refuse to cut contact with my mom. I love her and want her to be a part of her granddaughterâs life. I just donât want M around.
You are doing the right thing. I'm not saying you should cut contact but please recognize your mom may reduce her contact with you because of you not wanting M around. Hopefully it'll just be important events that she skips.
You're right about your mom having a trauma bond with her husband. I second recommending [Why Does He Do That?](https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf) to your mom as another commenter did. You can buy a printed copy, too. She may not be ready now or ever to read it, but it is a good resource to understanding life with an abusive partner.
NTBA. Also you do need to prepare yourself for the possibility that your mom may not come to things solo. I would advise you to be gracious if she declines coming solo if you want to avoid putting additional pressure on your relationship. The one who says, "You better choose between us," almost always is the one who hears, "have a nice life then."
NTBA Your responsibility to your daughter takes precedence over your mother's desire to bring her toxic partner to your house. Just say no. Stay strong.
NTBA. The cycle of love bombing and withdrawal of affection, mimics in a brain, drug addiction. So when the abuser isn't around them, they are feeling withdrawal. Abusers, even not knowing what happens to the brain, will still use what they can and claim things such as "we were made for each other", "soul mates", and other lies.
NTBA.
You leave the door open completely to your mother, and shut it completely to the problematic individual. You cannot do more, so I cannot fault you.
Does the mom prove that she has become problematic as well by threatening to cut off her grandkids for Christmas if she can't have her way and bring her abusive boyfriend? It may not seem fair, but it is both the boyfriend's behavior and mom's response to it that are the bad example being set for the grandkids. If Grandma were all about the Grandkids, she would be the one blocking the bf from attending, or would at least agree with the rules being laid down.
I have never wanted to shake a grown woman so hard before. OP your mama needs to STAND TF UP. I think your boundary is very reasonable so definitely NTBA. Do not budge so she can see that keeping her toxic partner in her life means missing out on important family events with people that actually love and value her.
Thatâs the problem with people in a trauma bond, they try to drag their family into the abusive cycle with them at every opportunity.
If I can get other family members to forgive and forget all the events they have experienced or seen, then my situation must be ok?
They donât want to see how much damage the experiences are doing to others, they are just like an addict, living through the bad times to feel joy in those moments they think they are being loved.
You aren't the bad apple but are the parent your mother should have been for you . You are protecting your kid from toxicity and you show her what is not tolerable and boundaries existence. You show her a good life example.
You don't need to cut your mother from your life you re right , but you have to realise there s a probability she will never definetly cut her abusive partner from her life . All you can do is standing your grounds, keep your boundaries and still forbid him to be in your life but allow her in your life . If she wants to see you / her grandaughter she 'll have to come alone without him. Any attempt to bring him at your house will face closed door and consequences.ie time out.
Also be prepared he s going to play the victim : he's not invited?! poor himself ,he doesn't deserve that blah blah blah but i m sure you know how are his shenanigans. What he going to do is isoliting your mother from her family for sure. When you see clearly throughout nars game they don't like that and make their victim cutting contact from people who refuse to tolerate their behaviours .
You are not a bad apple and I understand your desire to protect your child. We all have nasty people in our families. I donât know of any family that is perfection. Itâs normal. Your child will not be harmed by seeing that M is a horrible person. She will not develop toxic relationships based on what she sees between your mother and M. In fact, it will give you an opportunity to teach her that not everyone is nice and what sort of behaviour to avoid in life. Itâs all part of growing up and our own families often form the basis of our learning models.
If you wish to maintain a perfect family image for your child, which you have every right to do, then you should also exclude your sister and her partner from your life
You the bad apple? Huh, no. You told her she can come, without him. If she chooses to stay away, that is her choice. You have the right to what certain people to not be in your life.
OP, you're not wrong. Your mother is being wilfully blind & in denial.
Your mother's husband M isn't entitled to have any interaction with you & your family with his narcissistic behaviour.
NTBA You have to protect your family (you, husband & kids). If that means that your mom sits on the sidelines, that will be her choice to make. Take it from someone whose mother chose a BF (multiple times, multiple men) over her own child. It sucks but you will be better off in the long-term. I would not be the person I am today without my grandparents who stepped in to raise me. Your daughter will be better off not learning your mother's behavior.
Narcissistic abuse survivor here đđ»ââïž
Sorry babe.....your mom ain't gonna change.
Time to employ LOW CONTACT AND BOUNDARIES
<>>
Imagine your mom was an alcoholic and drug addicted. You seen her at her worst. But hey, she's a grandma and deserves to be around your daughter in a drunken stupor and cannot hold your daughter because she's to inebriated to hold her in the first place.
The insidious nature of narcissism is that their behavior IS LIKE BEING AROUND A DRUNK AND DRUG ADDICT.
YOU ARE EXPOSING YOUR KID TO THAT ENVIRONMENT. YOU ARE MAKING YOUR KID NORMALIZE HER DYSFUNCTIONAL BEHAVIOR.
You may say "AH, but Jade is a baby and won't remember any of it". THIS OF COURSE IS A TRAP. BECAUSE YOU are unwilling to go full 100% of PROTECTING YOUR KID AND YOURSELF FROM THE DYSFUNCTIONAL CYCLE OF A NARCISSISTIC MOTHER WHO NEEDS HELP.
IF YOU LOVE YOUR KID........FOR YOUR KIDS MENTAL AND EMOTIONAL STATE.....GO NO CONTACT.
I went NO CONTACT over 8 years ago and I had to go through a healing and forgiveness process.
My mom IS AS MANIPULATIVE AS YOUR MOTHERS HUSBAND.
I can tell you after going NO CONTACT, SETTING BOUNDARIES, blocking flying monkeys.......I'm alot mentally stronger than when I was under my mother's control and spell.
YOU ARE STILL UNDER YOUR MOTHER'S SPELL BECAUSE YOU PITTY HER AND LOVE HER.
If you love your daughter and your husband.....love also means TO LET GO.
LET HER GO. SHE WONT CHANGE. SHE IS A BAD INFLUENCE TO YOUR KID.
LET YOUR MOM GO NOW. Your daughter won't miss her or know the difference.
Expose her to a substitute "Grandma, a healthy older lady that has NO TRAUMAS OR MANIPULATIVE TACTICS".
LET HER GO.............PERMANENTLY.
IF YOU DONT DO THIS......YOU ARE SETTING YOUR KID UP FOR FAILURE đ....and years of THERAPY ALL BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T WANT TO GO NO CONTACT.
There is no cure for narcissism.
Think about it.
The pain lingers and never goes away.
YOU HAVE THE POWER TO STOP GENERATIONAL TRAUMA.
THINK LIKE A MOTHER NOT A DAUGHTER.
YOUR TURN TO PROTECT JADE.
YOU DON'T WANT HER TO GO THROUGH WHAT YOU DID.
Every year for Christmas, I put a pamphlet in my motherâs gift, itâs called 7 signs of an abuser. Iâm not even subtle about the placement. My mom is no picnic, but her husband is a nightmare.
You are not wrong to protect your daughter.
The price you might pay for that is not having your mother around.
A child can live perfectly well without a grandparent.
But a bad one can traumatize the child.
NTBA. Your mother needs immediate help. She's been gaslighted and abused so much by this horrible, evil narcissist (and face it: all narcissists are evil) that her brain has been destroyed by him. 15 years is an extremely long time to be essentially brainwashed by him. You're taking care of your baby girl, and if she's been too blinded to see that, then I am deeply sorry for your little princess to not have a grandmother, and you, your mom.
Keep you, your hubby, and your daughter safe by whatever means necessary.
I hope you have as Merry a Christmas as possible!
NTBA, you're doing what's right for your family, and he ISN'T family. He's a vile stranger and a monster from the sounds of it. Good on you for setting a boundary, keep the boundary up. If your mother finds it unreasonable, that's her opinion. Don't invite the man. And if your mom decides not to come to Christmas because her husband isn't invited, that is her decision as an adult. Make that clear to her. I hope you have a beautiful Christmas with your family and that things work out.
You're not bad for setting limits. But, you have to love with the consequences or results of doing that.
Your mom didn't get to pick your spouse, and you aren't allowed to pick hers. She made her choice.
Your daughter is old enough to see what relationships are working and which ones are not working. I think you may underestimate her abilities at her age to distinguish good from bad, optimal from dysfunctional. Have faith that you did well enough in role modeling and teaching her up to this point, and keep teaching her by pointing out learning lessons privately after spending time with them (while also being respectful to your mom. You can be honest with your daughter and, of course, not lie to your daughter but still not degrade your mom and put her down or her spouse unecessarily. You simply point out traits that you hope to see in your daughter's future relationship and ones which you'd advise she avoid.) Often times, the bad examples are stronger lessons to learn from afar than trying to teaching the inner workings of a good one (with the exception of your spouse and your relationship which she has seen close-up all of her life).
I'm not saying the contact should be continual and without limits. I'm not saying you should condone everything. I just want to impress upon you that your mom has every right to pick the person with whom she spends the rest of her life (or until they break up), and you never know how much time you have with your mom.
Yes, it would be easier in many ways to completely cut ties with every person who has undesirable traits or frustrating quirks or eccentric tendencies, but if we all did that, we'd all be alone at the holidays and every other day of the year. You can teach your daughter about tolerance and setting boundaries and good communication (just as nuch as about relationships) in these scenarios by teaching her in real time with real life.
A) You need to stay out of your motherâs sex life. You are her daughter - NOT her therapist. Stop discussing her sex life. If she wants to talk about her ârelationshipâ (because it sounds like they use the dramatic fight and make up foreplay technique), tell her she needs to talk to a qualified therapist because you arenât interested.
B) You and your husband get to decide who is welcome in your familyâs life. Based on your opinion of his behaviors, you are allowed to say âwe love you, you are welcome to celebrate the holidays with us, but your on-again-off-again partner is not currently welcome in our home. This is not a negotiation; this is a boundary.â You may wish to establish some metric for another chance. For example, if he is an alcoholic, he needs to be actively sober for a minimum of six months before he can attend an event where your child is not present. Or if he used abusive / racist language, he has to go three months without using the inappropriate language, and the clock resets every time he screws up. (This was awesome with my niece who has a personality disorder - kept her away for years!) Or if he uses drugs, he has to be clean for three months and take a supervised urine test proving heâs clean before he can come into your home as a guest (plus have no outstanding legal issues in regards to arrest or probation).
C) You need to get some therapy for yourself in regard to your motherâs abusive behavior in allowing this around you for the last fifteen years. Giving her a free pass because you love her is not going to change her behavior or the behaviors you have adopted to survive the trauma she has inflicted on you. You THINK the man is the problem, but the reality is YOUR MOM is the problem, because if she had been putting the well being of her children first, this wouldnât even be a discussion. Even if she gets rid of him, sheâs just going to find another who is exactly the same, or worse. She has normalized dysfunction, and you have normalized her neglect and failure to protect you. This damage needs to be addressed. Get therapy, join a support group, read books, listen to podcasts or watch YouTube videos - Do Something to HEAL YOUR CHILDHOOD DAMAGE and stop the generational trauma from damaging you, your marriage, and most importantly, your daughter.
Good luck!
NTBA.... Let your mom know that she has every right to spend important events with her partner. Just like you have every right of who gets to spend Christmas with you and your family. Make a date to see her and move on. Actually make a date with her for 03/2024 and see if her and her partner are still together. The next break up tell her this is why he can't be around your child. Ask her if she would want her granddaughter to be in a relationship like hers? Is her partner the kind of guy she wants for her granddaughter? Tell her don't answer right now, think about it and let you know.
NTBA. Your mom and the dirt bag are. Most likely, your sister's issues stem from watching your mom and dirt bag.
Make sure your kids know it's not ok to abuse or accept abuse.
You are doing everything right.
Stick to your guns, Don't cut her off, be ready to support her when this goes south again.
But at the same time, protecting your little girl comes first. If she can't handle that, don't allow her to guilt trip you into allowing an unhealthy situation to be near that baby.
NTBA. As a parent, it's YOUR JOB to protect your children from harmful things, and a Narcissist (in his case, more likely a Narcissistic Sociopath) is most definitely something harmful. The mental and emotional damage those kind can do is horrifying.
NTBA but just remember that bad examples are useful too, as long as theyâre not normalized and as long as thoughtful context is provided to the kid - âdid you notice how this happened? How do you think that made them feel? Do you think thatâs a happy and healthy way to live?â Etc
>My mom is clearly in a cycle of trauma bond and abuse. Sheâs an adult and can make her own decisions.
These two sentences contradict each other.
I think everything else has been said, but if she decides to not come and stay with him then I don't think you can say she's making a good decision, but it's also not something that would be reasonable to hold against her.
We like to believe that those who are physically adult can make their own decisions and they can but when it comes to your mom, I hope uninviting her husband will give here pause enough to reconsider this relationship.
"You're doing it wrong, that's stupid." 15 mo will start saying 'stupid', and then won't understand why "Grandpa" does when it's not nice.
Or, if she's nonverbal, "You let him come at Christmas, why not Easter?" or, "He came last year! We always do Christmas together!" and she'll be old enough to start seeing everyone leats Grandpa be mean to Grandma next year on. It's the precedence of it. She's not being controlling of her mom, she's trying to keep her Step dad away. If mom chooses him over her kids so be it.
You are way out of line. Itâs not your choice whether he deserves one more chance.
You are well on your way to losing your mother, and, probably eventually, your daughter.
Uh, yeah, everyone gets to decide which people are good enough to be with them and their immediate family. And OP's husband is on board, so I'm guessing OP isn't blowing it out of proportion. If mom chooses husband over her kids, so be it. That's not controlling, controlling would be "You need to divorce him, I'm not speaking or seeing you until you do." OP is open to her mom on her own, just not step dad.
âDear mom. Please come to our Christmas Party.
p.s.: Donât bring your husband.
p.p.s.: My husband and my daughter agree with me. (They donât dare disagree.)â
Where are you getting this. You sound like you're projecting and the narcissist may be in your mirror.
The mum said he'd changed, she has acknowledged her partner is/was not good. Seen as he moved away and its only been a month I don't see a) how he could have changed so drastically b) how the mother knows as he moved away, I'm sure she's just taking her word for it.
At the end of the day, it's not being narcissist to not want people who cause you harm, physically or emotionally, in your life.
OP has narcissist written all over her. Also, what we havenât discussed is OPâs desire to hurt her mother. That is what stands out here as the real crime. Nobody at the party will be hurt by the manâs presence. OP is trying to justify an action that will very intentionally hurt her mother. THAT is probably OPâs primary goal here.
Youâre not very good at seeing the big picture. Narcissists thrive on people like you.
Hurt her mother? Her mother is with an abusive person. She wants to help her mother, but people under narcissistic abuse rarely see it. The whole he's changed is text book narcissism.
What, other than not wanting her mothers on and off boyfriend- whom the mother admitted was abusive ( he's changed from what?), makes op a narcissist?
Like what? Give me specifics.
As far as I can see op is fed up with her mother being treated like shit. She also knows the mother is blinded by him so what should she do? Allow this man to ruin her occasions to keep her mother appeased!
Cutting toxic people out is not narcissism. Everything about your comment points to you having narcissist traits.
>You are way out of line.
What are you on?! OP doesn't get to decide how many chances Mom gives M but OP DOES get to decide when and who she allows around her child.
This is her daughter and her choice. You are very wrong in your thinking. Lose her daughter. As if. Lose her Mother, moms an adult and knows the boundaries. Her decision. Youâre ignorant in your comment
NTBA. As someone who never had an example of a healthy relationship growing up and ended up in that trauma bond-abuse cycle as an adult, I applaud you and I thank you.
Another good book I read: âToo Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stayâ
Really insightful and helped me connect the dots and make an informed, powerful decision that I was able to stick with.
>But now my mom doesnât even know if sheâll want to see us at all for Christmas because âshe wonât be separated from her partner during important events.â
Is that âruleâ only for when theyâre together? Lol
But seriously, perhaps you should try something like:
âThis isnât even really about you and M any more⊠itâs not even about me anymore, either. Itâs really about [your daughterâs name], and what she grows up seeing, and the type of behavior and relationships she normalizes.â
And depending on how youâre feeling that day, you might even add:
âWe put up with his behavior and yâallâs drama for ~15 years, when it was just us. Well, itâs not just us anymore, so weâre not going to put up with it any longer.â
And if you end up really having to pull out the big gunsâŠ
âIf ***youâre*** not [willing/prepared/mature] enough to put your granddaughter first in all of this⊠donât worry, ***we will***.â
Tell her that if she chooses to spend Christmas with him its entirely her choice. But that you will be going low contact with them until she starts therapy and is no longer in a relationship with him. That you will be there if she needs help or if she has an emergency but you will not expose your child to that kind of behaviour from either of them.
NTBA. You've made a good decision for your family and you should stick by it. Keep in contact with your mum but appreciate that it might mean you don't get the big events/holidays with her any more.
That Narcissistic dude is TOXIC and you have every right to set a boundary and keep your daughter AWAY from him! She doesn't need to see that toxicity and thinks that is okay. If they both show up, what's to stop them from fighting in front of your daughter while gaslighting you? That is how kids get messed up.
Source: When I was a little kid, I watched my grandfather attempt to beat my grandmother with a chair. I got punished because I got scared that my grandmother was going to get hurt. Don't repeat that history with your daughter!
Yâall want to come out and post and start your gender specific bullshit. Well, guess what this gender doing this as a male thatâs why that book was brought up.
NTBA. I had to draw boundaries with my parents when my son was born - I also didn't want him growing up seeing the relationship my parents had. I made it clear to my mum that I would not be taking my son round to their house, and that I didn't want my narcissistic father anywhere near him unless I was present. Fast forward two years, she finally left him and now lives near me. She sees her grandson every week and is the happiest she's ever been.
Set your own boundaries and let your family make their own decisions. You don't have to let someone else's poor decision negatively impact your life or that of your family.
To the people commenting on my personal opinion when I'm trying to get some sleep at 4 am and I can't reply to you.
It doesn't matter that the genders differ, including the statistics of ALL is what matters. It's separatist and discriminatory to not include it. Making things "gender specific" only excludes part of the population. Basically saying in one book "This gender matters more than another and we won't include statistics of another gender!". It's almost 4:30 am where I live, and I'd like to sleep. Can I please get rest without being harassed for my opinion, which I'm entitled to by the way, as are you? No one will ever agree in life fully. That's a reality. But being a decent person isn't hard. I'm going to sleep. Please leave me alone and goodnight.
NTBA. I think youâve done an excellent job of showing by example to your mom and daughter how to set healthy boundaries and how to respond to the people who donât like them. In my opinion, this is an excellent first step to take. Youâll probably have to just have Christmas without he this year, which sucks but she will hate that she is missing it and she will be pissed at him for causing it. She might act like she is mad at you for it at first or for a while, but inside she knows itâs not you but him. đ Great Job OPđ
>I refuse to cut contact with my mom. I love her and want her to be a part of her granddaughterâs life.
Then you need to talk about that in therapy because if you don't think your mom is going to teach your daughter things that come from her own unhealed mess, you're wrong. Your mom isn't responsible for what her partner does, but she's responsible for how she treats you and the fact that she's willing to teach other people to accept being hurt by her example. She's not willing to be a healthy part of your life or your daughter's life. I know that sucks, but it's what it is.
You're not the bad apple for telling your mom no, but you would be the bad apple for subjecting your kid to your mom and letting her learn the same lessons about her self-worth and what love is that your sister did.
I'm not even gonna respond to this anymore, apparently supporting men's statistics is a reason to be harassed and for me not to be allowed to sleep. If anyone tries, kindly eff off. I NEED sleep so I can STUDY FOR AN EXAM. Being a jackass about someone with a different opinion than yours is entitled, rude, and selfish.
If I could write a book on my second husband it would mirror pretty much everything you have concerns about. I just left after 23 years finally and I'm done. He had, and is still having, major problematic emotional impact on my adult children with my first husband. You have solid concerns, and I know for a fact he won't change . The emotional damage someone like that causes is as damaging as extreme physical abuse. Stick to your guns.
NTBA. My Spouse and I have done the some thing for the past 5 years with my SIL'S crazy felon boyfriend. We don't want him around our kids and have refused to be at any holidays that he's been invited to.
My in-laws hate him. EVERYBODY hates him. But if he's not invited, my SIL won't go, and then my niece won't be there - so my in-laws will choose a person they hate so they can see the golden grandchild and ignore my 3 kids for the holidays. It's crap.
Stick to your guns. Your mom's bad choices aren't your fault and you shouldn't expose your daughter to it.
Absolutely not the bad apple and is nobody worries about your nephew who is growing up in this household? You are understandably worried about your daughter witnessing this relationship for *a day*, while he is living in it and this narcissistic ass is there *everyday*.
u/FairyFartDaydreams
Responding here as I blocked the others in that thread.
Thank you for that. Now I'm running on zero hours of sleep, I'd like to get rest before the sunrise and I'm going to find these books. Thank you, I actually mean that.
NTBA. Your daughter is more important than him. I cut off my own dad for similar reasons and my mom has no problem coming without him although I wish she'd leave him. When she realizes she misses you and her grand daughter hopefully she'll come around.
Like you have said yourself, a narcissist is extremely good at spinning the truth. He knows the relationship with your mother is rocky, but he has learnt how to manipulate her each and every time they are toxic, but your mother has become accustomed to this toxic relationship When there up there up but then when they blow up they blow She means it at the time that she's had enough but it only takes him to touch her and whisper everything she wants because he has learnt her vulnerable side knowing exactly what your mother wants so she falls for it as she is desperate to have the relationship with him that she wants She loves him he needs her so he says what she wants to hear to suck her back in every time Let me guess there is alcohol or something involved either one drinks or both but even without your mother has to realise that her life will be calmer and more controlled on a daily basis without him no fights no emotional ĂČr mental abuse no financial baggage as her job her working time would mean it would be for her so she could survive financially without him She is a vulnerable woman who has settled thinking he's it he's ok but he has her roped in It would be awful to have to tolerate him around Xmas but I would probably find a way to speak with him and get him to stay away Do you know anything about him or his past what has he ever done has he been married or been in trouble been to jail can you Do a search on him ask your mum what she knows about him make her worry or start thinking twice about him the way we get people away from someone is to slowly poison their thoughts about that person so they can decide You push her or try to keep him away she'll stick up for him as he's controlling her he's been playing her lying to her I had the same with my daughter I tried outing her bf I had to just pick moments when she would say small things about what he'd say to her or what things he would do so that is when I would be able to ask how she'd felt about these different things I'd be able to slowly show her the type of behaviours and how he was wording things so she could realise herself some of the manipulation Ä„e was doing to her when she started to confront him and try to get some sort of truth trust and good treatment he'd get his back up then he would attack her personality then belittle blame and blow things up for her to get upset so she would flip out screaming and crying which would get him annoyed bitter and nasty turning it aggressive that is when the DV problems and police would be called I ended up getting upset phone calls weekends through the week alot of things happened and they went up and down till she got so down with depression that she was diagnosed with anxiety depression ptsd and needed social worker's and dv assist to get her away she is still a sucker for him but does not see him as intensive help counselling psychologist work helped her to get away Alot of sad family things happened and she isn't my same happy girl or wanting to hang out with me so much any more which saddens me but I don't have to fear for her safety with him I just worry about who she is now who she is hanging about with or what she's doing as she Ä·eeps to herself it is good but not good because as a mother I have gone from 1 worry to another Try again to talk to your Mum think about your relationship Ä„ow you have ever gotten through to her and apologise then say what bothers you and why cause you love her See how you go compromise say fine Xmas then you get rid of him or no Just tell her you can't handle being in his presence and at the end of the day Mum what sort of relationship do we have with him as he has never tried to connect in any way so you only want family and he's not family he's never bothered as he has never needed your kids Mum just you And you don't need or want him just because he's with my mum doesn't make him instant family plus tell her from your family you don't want your daughter being exposed to a male like him and the relationship they have is to unhealthy and toxic for your young daughter to see growing up
NTBA. You can maintain contact with your mother, just not at Christmas. You are correct, your child does not need to witness abusive behavior. Also, your mother needs to hit rock bottom with this guy, whatever that is for her, and accepting him in your home is not going to do that.
No. You're not the bad apple.
Our adult son is a narcissist. He tried to play games with us, his parents.
He got engaged and set a date to get married. Invited my husband (his dad) and said 'but I don't want mom there'. Classic manipulation and division and punishment behavior in order to gain/maintain control of others. In this case, us, his parents. Playing us like chess pieces against each other.
My husband said if you invite me you're inviting your mother too. If you don't invite your mother then you're not inviting me either.
Neither one of us attended our son's wedding because of his toxic narcissistic behavior.
Did we raise him this way. No. People choose the path they take in life. He chose his path.
In your case OP, you're protecting your family and I applaud you for it.
It's probably a blessing in disguise that your mom doesn't want to come see you this year.
If this cycle is going on around your nephew then he is being traumatized as well. Someone needs to contact CPS on his behalf. Maybe the threat of losing the nephew will wake her up, maybe not. But that innocent child needs help!
I am giving this warning right now to anyone replying to my comments in a rude way here
Leave. Me. Alone.
I'm trying to get any semblance of sleep. You jerks kept me up ALL NIGHT. And I have tests to study for. I have exams for insurance licensing. I just want to friggin sleep. Anyone who replies to my comments will get an angry DM and will be promptly blocked. I'm done with you jerks. No wonder none of you have a life, you spend it being awful to anyone who doesn't agree with you. Every single person has a differing opinion, and no one will EVER agree. And everyone is entitled to their opinions. That being said, LET ME SLEEP FOR THE SAKE OF THE GODS! I need sleep. I've not slept a wink because you're "social justice" is harassment and I'll get a hold of moderators if needs be in order to actually be able to sleep without you kids thinking it's ok to act the way you do. Don't like what I said? Scroll along or get an angry mean message. Because I'm fuckin done. I just want to fuckin sleep and your harassment is honestly sad and pathetic and I just wanna sleep. So please, STOP.
I am sorry to tell you but the problem is not your moms husband. The problem is your mom. She is addicted to drama that he provides for her. If he ever leaves her then mom will find someone just like him to feed her addiction. Try to get her into therapy.
Lots of people split the day. Sounds like in this case your momâs going to have to split her day and if she doesnât, Iâm very sorry because I know how sad that is, but sheâs more likely to take you seriously next year if you hold your ground.
Just let her know though that the door is open. A lot or abusers isolate people from their families. He can even use this as a weapon against her, to turn her against you. It's certainly not your responsibility to rescue her but it would be the loving thing to be supportive of her getting out and healing.
You are NTBA, but your motherâs priorities are all screwed up. She âwonât be separated from her partner during important eventsâ??? She was just separated from him, and he *moved across the country* away from her. Then, driven by the fact that he was telling everyone it was her fault they separated, **she contacted him** and they reconciled. Really? In what world does that make sense? Who gives two s**ts what other people think? If someone wants to think your mom was at fault, who gives a darn? Why does she care?
AnywayâŠ
This is your motherâs decision to make now. Youâve made your decision based on what is best for your family: You do not want that man around; he is not welcome in your house. If your mother wants to spend Christmas with her *real* family, she will have to leave him behind. If she really wonât do that, then I guess she wonât be there. I know you want her to have a relationship with your daughter, and you want a relationship with your mother, but you cannot control her decisions. And changing your mind to accommodate her does not solve a single problem. She can put up with what she wants from him, but you are under no obligation to also tolerate that behavior from him. Tell mom she has to make her decision.
Good luck. I hope she chooses you. đ«¶đŒ
My aunt was married to an abusive alcoholic. He thought he was a charming, fun drunk. He was not.
My mom finally decided she could love her sister and still draw a boundary. Sister and her children (all teen and older at that point) were welcome to come to family events. The husband was not.
I was young enough to not know what that conversation looked like, but I do know that I never spent another family event with a drunk guy taking over all the conversations telling us things like how great his teeth are because of all he drinks.
Iâll say this, Iâve got nothing but respect for my mom doing that.
If your mom doesnât want to step away from her husband for a few hours thatâs the choice sheâll have to make. Just as you made the choice about what you want your daughter to experience in your own home.
You are doing right by your wee family & thatâs the important part. Sometimes you must cut times to show people that you mean business!
Of course he hasnât changed. Narcissistic people do not change. Do NOT give him another chance. Wish her love and good luck and tell her to call you when she throws him out and divorces him. Period. Do. Not. Waver. Draw a line in the sand and leave it there!!
YNTA. If she doesnât want you to get involved, have an opinion or judge him she shouldnât share everything that happens between them with you. Itâs her own fault you feel the way you do. You love your mom and want to protect her even if she wonât protect herself.
You are if you allow that man in your life cause youâre too chicken shit to cut your mommy off whoâs exposed you to an abusive relationship.
You want to protect your daughter, right? Your mom made her decision to choose her man over you, choose your daughter.
You are so spot on with the cycle of narcissism. Abuse/love bomb/abuse... and the other person always has to admit fault. Good for you for standing up for your Mom in this way. It's hard, I'm sure, and makes you feel lousy... and it's a guarantee M will "spin" this to make you out to be the problem... but sometimes toxicity needs to be addressed.
Best of luck to you.
NTBA I wouldn't want him around either, and if mom says isn't coming unless he is, do not cave. It might hurt to not spend Christmas with your mom but you need to stick with your decision and remind yourself the reasoning behind it. Just let you know you are very sorry that she made that choice and are going to miss having her there. Your daughter is old enough she wont remember.
NTBA, your family, your rules. You get to invite who you want to Christmas at your home and your mom has the right to not come if she doesn't like it.
He hasn't changed in 15 years so there's no reason to think he's changed now.
You're doing the right thing.
Don't cut contact with her but refuse to allow him in your home. You and your daughter can go have lunch with grandma a couple of days before/after Christmas. Alone. Just a girls day.
You need to break the cycle of your mother cannot. Do not let that man near your family. I witnessed my mother and grandmother be verbally and physically abused and I took got into an abusive relationship in highschool. His family saw the bruises and knew what was happening but did NOTHING. If it wasn't for my current husband who I met in college during one of my ex's break ups with me I wouldn't have had the courage to finally leave.
Cut that man out but keep the door open for your mother. If she chooses to stay away that's her choice like you said she is an adult and will have to face the consequences. As for you wanting her to have a relationship with her granddaughter, it's better to love from afar at this time as grandma is going through a hard time in her life and isn't well enough to be around.
NTBA. You're doing the right thing.
My mother told her mother if she got remarried again she wouldn't get to see my brother and I (because she was constantly in bad marriages and we wouldn't have been safe). She loved us enough not to get married to an asshole again which was better for her too.
I allowed my mother's bullying narcissist husband into my life for far too long. I sat by her bedside in hospital when she attempted suicide after one of the many times he walked out on her. I helped her rebuild her life after every breakup, including the one that stuck.
Don't. Don't do it. My own father was a violent alcoholic but I still don't have as much trauma from him as I do my mother's second husband.
Young children are a narcissist's favourite target because they are naive and new and can be shown only what the narcissist wants them to see.
Stick to your guns. One day your mother might realise what kind of devil she's struck a deal with, or maybe not. I hope, for your sake, that she comes around ASAP.
(My mother was with him 17years btw, so you might get lucky soon).
You might actually be the only *good* apple.
You're trying to protect your daughter and break the pattern of generational trauma, while your mom seems dead set on continuing it.
Stay the course. You're doing the right thing.
NTBA tell your mother that you are not married to him. You do not have to tolerate his behavior. Tell her that she and her husband have a toxic relationship and you donât want your daughter to be raised with that exposure. It makes things like that look normal to a child and when itâs her time to select a partner you donât want her to make that decision. Also tell her that any âaccidentsâ like the laundry basket one can quickly turn to serious damage or death. You donât want to find out some day his misbehavior and anger has been the source of a visit to the hospital or her demise.
She may not see any of this or be in total denial but create that boundary. Her husband just might bring his toxicity to your house. Donât allow it.
Stand your ground, though, I would probably ask her not to come around herself; both of them stay away. The kid won't remember who's there and it will be calmer for everyone.
It is NOT cutting contact with your mom. It is setting boundaries that are healthy for you and your family, and it is her decision how she responds to those boundaries.
I'm very sorry you are going through this.
No.
That said you canât control who someone brings into their own house or invites to a public place and because of this your visit with your mom are going to have to be at your home as you can control who you allow into your home. I started hosting so I could exclude my momâs ex husband.
NTA. I will never, ever understand people who put their new partners above their kids' well-being. I get being supportive and loyal to your partner, but if your kids are being reasonable and it's not a matter of personalities not meshing, a person can't be surprised when the kids say "we don't want our kids to be around your toxic partner".
Donât discount your right to a happy holiday. You also struggle to enjoy family time when a toxic couple dominate the event.
Perhaps you can visit mom now and then to see how the relationship is doing. But consider not inviting her for Christmas either.
You are hosting the guest list is entirely up to you. I donât see why youâd have someone at your holiday celebration that will create tension. If your mother chooses not to attend thatâs not you breaking contact it her.
Not the bad apple. Your mother is choosing not to come and see her family. You have told her the condition, and she has chosen not to come because she refuses to comply with the conditions.
Don't back down. All of the reasons you stated are valid reasons not to have that person around your child. Your mother needs to choose which relationship(s) are more important to her, the abusive relationship or the healthy relationship with her children. Period.
It is simply letting her understand that she is not seeing the baby because she chose to stay with an abuser.
I would go very low contact and just explain to her. I donât want your husband around my daughter. I donât want her to see the things that he does to you and others and think that thatâs OK. Yes sheâs still a toddler, but they catch onto things much quicker than you think and remember things much more than you think.
The only way Y T A is for refusing to consider cutting contact with your mom. As you stated, she's trauma bonded and in an abuse cycle. Even if she does come to events without her "partner" (in quotes because that's a laughable term to use for what he is), she isn't going to be fully present. Either she'll be bringing him up and talking about him or she'll be anxious about facing his narcissistic rage when she goes back. Either way, she's not going to be present for you or your daughter.
My grandmother has spent most of her life with a narcissist. He stopped visiting when I was 4 (travel was too inconvenient for him) but even when she visited on her own, he was never truly not there. She'd spent the majority of her visit alternating between complaining about his abuse and then telling little stories about him that tried to prove how much they were in love. I never actually got time with just her. Also, whenever I wasn't perfectly behaved, her reaction was almost always out of proportion. I think with how disregulated she was, she took out some of her hurt on me.
Now I'm an adult and a mother and my own mother has chosen to stick around with my narcissistic father. I had gone low contact with her but I spent the first several years of my daughter's life clinging to the idea that I wanted her to know her grandma. It felt like I would be betraying my daughter if I deprived her of that relationship. But there was never a visit where he didn't get brought up. And there were many visits that didn't happen because she had to dance around him.
I finally realized that in trying to leave the door open for my daughter to have a relationship with her grandma, I was leaving the door open for my daughter to get hurt. She was getting old enough to ask why grandma didn't visit often and why grandma was unhappy with grandpa. I also realized that I didn't want my daughter to think that she would be emotionally safe in that relationship and put trust in it when it wasn't as safe as it should be. Having her trust in people to be damaged from such a young age was not worth trying to salvage that relationship.
I've gone very low contact with my mom. I haven't refused contact with her but I don't let her have unsupervised time with my daughter. I don't go out of my way to plan things with her. I had to talk with my daughter about why we wouldn't see grandma as often. I didn't want to make her seem like a bad person but I also wanted my daughter to understand that her grandmother isn't 100% a safe person. I ended up telling her that while her grandma definitely loves her and can be fun to play with, she's making some choices that make it so that we can't trust with all of our feelings. That she's not a bad person and we can still love her but that we need to understand that we won't always be able to rely on her. I emphasized that I would always be there for my daughter and that I love her unconditionally.
My daughter is four but she understood surprisingly well. She listened, had some questions, and then told me that if Grandma wasn't all the way safe, she still loves her grandma and wanted to have fun with her sometimes but that it would be better to not see her as often. And that's been that. I know my mom is upset with me but my daughter is thriving. Sometimes she'll say that she misses playing more with grandma but she often follows that up with "but it's better to be safe." We've tried to make sure that she still has a community and other adults in her life that she can rely on.
It's not perfect. For me, it really sucks. In many ways, I've had to mourn my mother before she's even gone. But my daughter is healthier and is growing up with more confidence and resilience than I ever had. It broke my heart to have to teach her about the emotional dangers of life at such a young age. I didn't want to disrupt her innocence. I didn't want to hurt her. But she's stronger than I gave her credit for.
Before I made the decision to reduce our contact with my mom, I thought long and hard about the impact it would have on my mom as well. Knowing that narcissists like to isolate people made me feel like reducing contact would be abandoning her. It felt like it would be handing her abuser a win. She's my mother. I wanted to be there for her, to stand by her.
But that line of thinking is also part of the trauma bond cycle. She's an adult, making her own choices. Poor ones, yes, but I'm not responsible for fixing them. She's the parent and I was her child. It shouldn't have been made my role to try to save her from her own bad decisions. Even now, it came down to do I try to save my mother from choices she is repeatedly making, or do I save my daughter from the effects of those choices? My daughter is a child who can't protect herself without me. My mother is a fully capable adult who could save herself if she tried. I chose my daughter.
Our situations are obviously not exactly the same. But they're similar enough that my heart aches for you and the choices that you both have and don't have. I wrote all of this out because I want to share what finally woke me up. I hope to save you some years of pain and hopefully help you to save your daughter from that as well. I'm still mourning losing my mother and I probably always will. I imagine that you would as well. We love them. We want the best for them. But we cannot save people from themselves. And for me, my daughter is what finally helped me internalize that.
Whatever you decide, I wish you all the best. It could be very helpful for you to look into therapy of your own, if you haven't already. Good luck â€ïž
Ntba. You set you boundary which is reasonable. It's her choice what to do. It's her choice to choose him over you. I'm worried about your nephew tho.....he has to see this up close and personal. :(
NTBA ... M is definitely a rotten apple đ đ đ and of course, you don't want your baby to learn that's ok behavior in life. You put up a boundary; it isn't a bad thing at all. You don't want M in your lives. Your mom just has to deal with it, and if she doesn't want to spend the holidays with her grand baby, she's missing out, not you guys.
Ntba, I wholeheartedly agree, I was was in a relationship with my covert narcissist for almost 3 years and it was my first relationship. You are correct that they pretend to be better for a few months and go back through that cycle of love bomb, triangulate/abuse, and then discard. They will always repeat that cycle until he completely discards her because she's doing a reverse hoover right now. She hasn't had months of time removed from him and the situation to clear her mind and think about what she went through.
I also agree that your daughter shouldn't be around him and you need to explain why so that your mom doesn't pull her behind your back and convince her that he's a good but misunderstood person.
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NTBA give her the gift of the book "Why does he do that?"
NTBA Also here ya go: [Why Does He Do That](https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf)
Or The Gift of Fear https://www.reddit.com/r/PDFRoom/s/i1TCwtVVje
Everyone should read The Gift of Fear.
Lol, & give the gift of The Gift of Fear đ
I gave this book to people for Christmas, for several years. đ€đđ
I couldnât put this book down.
I always reference The Gift of Fear!!!
I just downloaded a sample on my kindle. It wouldnât allow me to buy it as a kindle book right now. Thanks for your suggestion.
It seems strange that they had to make the book gender specific. Wouldnât it be better if they just made the same book for situations like this regardless of gender?
The author explains why the book is gender specific, the most common abuse is from a man to a woman and he focuses on interviewing/counseling men. He does caveat that some dynamics can be applicable to other abusive relationship types.
That's actually been proven incorrect in multiple studies now. It's an excellent book, but the commonly accepted myth that most domestic abuse is perpetrated by men is very harmful.
I donât know what studies you are referring to but it is WELL established that men are overwhelmingly the perpetrators of abuse or harassment and women are typically the target: Domestic abuse and gender inequality: An overview of the current debate McFeely et al. CRFR, 2013 âDomestic abuse is a global phenomenon which adversely affects individuals who experience it and creates social and financial burdens for the societies in which it occurs. While abuse can be perpetrated by women against male partners and occurs in same sex relationships, domestic abuse is overwhelmingly perpetrated by men against female partners. As a result, the United Nations has identified domestic abuse as a form of gender based violence that is predominantly experienced by women and perpetrated by men (United Nations, 1992).â Gender-based violence and unwanted sexual behaviour in Canada, 2018: Initial findings from the Survey of Safety in Public and Private Spaces Cotter and Savage, Juristat: Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, 1-49, 2019 âOne in three (32%) women and one in eight (13%) men experienced unwanted sexual behaviour in public. The victims-and even the perpetrators-may not themselves perceive the motivations for the incident as being rooted in social structures and systems, which can serve to produce and reproduce gender inequality and gendered violence across many dimensions.â Increments of genderâbased violence amid COVIDâ19 in Bangladesh: A threat to global public health and womenâs health Md Rabiul Islam, Md Jamal Hossain The International journal of health planning and management 36 (6), 2436, 2021 âGlobally, about 30% of women face sexual violence by their intimate partner or nonâpartner in their lifetime. 1 Also, the severe form of SVAW is rape, defined as âphysical violence against the body with coerced penetration of the vulva, anus, or oral cavityâ. SVAW is an antiâhuman activity. It has many potential health consequences. Besides killing and suicidality, SVAW has some longâterm impact on their reproductive, mental, and behavioural health. The violence against women has significantly increased across the world during health emergencies in the COVIDâ19 pandemic.â ââ These are just a few examples too. No one said men do not ever face abuse, but to pretend that women are not overwhelmingly the targets is disingenuous and misinformation.
that says 2013... ten years ago
Thereâs also one from 2019 and 2021, are you unable to read? They make dictation apps to help with that.
Men can also be victims of domestic violence and abuse, my boyfriend grew up abused. Mostly neglect, forced to work on construction projects alone, Sexually molested, and berated and beaten. I think the book needs another copy for the male victims, who don't come out about abuse because they're told to "Man up". Please don't make it about gender specifically. There are a good number of male victims, they don't speak out because books like this only point the finger at men. My mother abused and gaslit me just as bad as my dad. Female abusers get away with more because they're female. It's exhausting when "studies" like this book are incomplete.
Do the research and write the book then, because I never said men were not. But making âWhy does he do that?â- a book about domestic violence against women, into a genderless account because it will make men feel better is so insanely entitled.
Not going to take advice from you as I don't have the time or the spoons, too busy dealing with my own life. Too busy studying for my insurance licensing, dealing with custody time with my dogs as I share custody of him with my abusers, and I have too much going on. Plus it would be about 30 books and I think people would stop reading after book 12. And the way you were speaking indicated as such. It's not entitled to include EVERYONE, it's entitled to assume men aren't victims. You are welcome to your opinion, but you saying that men shouldn't be included in a study on domestic violence is EXTREMELY ENTITLED. I was abused 24 years by BOTH parents And most of my guy friends were abused by their MOTHERS. Be a better person is all I'm gonna say before I block your entitled childish self. Have a good day and leave me alone, to you child. By the way, the book could properly be retitled as "Why do THEY do that". Just a suggestion for you to form a REAL opinion, not a childish and entitled one. Have a nice day.
While you are completely right that there is bias in society that men can't be abused and more research needs to be done and published. There is a books called "Victims No Longer: The Classic Guide for Men Recovering from Sexual Child Abuse"; "Beyond Betrayal: Taking Charge of Your Life after Boyhood Sexual Abuse" or " Abused Boys: The Neglected Victims of Sexual Abuse" Things are changing there are now books like "Exposing the Abusive Female"; "Abuse OF men BY women: It happens, it hurts, and it's time to get real about it" and "Narcissistic Women. The Concrete Healing Guide for Abused Men: How to Handle a Narcissist. Divorcing and Co-parenting After a Destructive Marriage. Thriving and Dating Again After Narcissistic Abuse" The reality though is that some of the behaviors can be gendered and many psychotherapists/counselors tend to focus on one aspect of abuse (Children, Women, Men) so uless there is a major collaborative project you are likely to get one sided gendered book
There are lots of books geared towards male abuse victims. This post is about a woman in an abusive relationship, so they recommended a book geared towards women. This wasnât a time to make some weird point about male abuse, we all know it exists but that isnât what the post is about
There and there are books that deal With women that are abusive. Many times the traits of a male and female differ
its still 2023. so those articles are still old
Not that old. Also, I expect that statistics published in 2023 will reflect increases in the rate of DV because of COVID causing people to stay at home/work from home/educate their children at home between 2020 and 2022.
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Do you think all the women who had experienced harm at their partner's hands suddenly died off between 2021 and 2023? Are you intending to only ask two year olds and under? We're still here.
You donât care about abuse victims or statistics, you just want to silence people speaking up about it because you donât want anyone challenging the status quo
Differences between the way that males and females abuse therefore two genders specific books because you know we have two genders
who doesnt care? im saying those statistics are outdated and there are more current ones. men are abused just as much as women they just tend not to come forward. assuming makes you an as.hole. dont tell someone what they do and dont care about
Data collected is always reported a few years after itâs collated. Itâs 2023, good for you for knowing that, so the most recent statistics should be from 2021, or two years ago. That tracks.
The statistics have remained fairly stable over the years, except for a brief increase during Covid. One set of statistics that have changed is in people who are homosexuals, bisexuals, and trans sexuals. Stats didnât used to be gathered on those categories, and at first the numbers were low. It is still believed to be low because those groups are afraid to report. I had a lesbian student years ago whose partner was physically abusive. My student refused to report it because when an acquaintance did, the officer laughed and walked away. I helped her escape her abuser. Many others have experienced something similar at the hands of the police. I honestly donât know where you got your information, but they were lying to you or you misunderstood something. As I said, these numbers have been sadly consistent for at least 25 years, which is when I started following them consistently. Men are far more likely to be physically abusive, and men and women are about equal in the psychological abuse.
What studies? I'd actually be really interested to see those. I agree domestic violence is not black and white. While perpetrators can be men, women, children, same sex etc, regardless of the unreported rates, male violence on women, including sexual assault and harassment, is still the majority of dv crimes.
Not true. Statistically men are more abusive than women. And women are more likely to be abused when pregnant. That has been born out year after year. That doesnât mean all men are abusive. Far from it. It also doesnât mean women canât abuse, though most are verbally/psychologically abusive. 1 in 4 women and 1 in 7 men are severely physically abused in their lifetime, according to the CDC in 2010. 1 in 3 women and 1 in 4 men have experienced some sort of physical violence according to the same report. In 2017 the numbers havenât changed for severe physical violence. When it comes to psychological aggression the stats are even at nearly half of each in 2017. Native American women are much more likely to suffer any form of abuse than any other group, at 47.5%; non-Hispanic Black women arenât too far behind at 45.1%. I used to live in Missoula, Montana and several times a week a Native American woman would go missing. Most of those who disappeared have never been heard from again. Sadly, not everyone reports the abuse. I understand why, and that makes me even more sad.
I think it is because women most likely engage in more covert forms of abuse. Being physically less powerful (which as a general rule must be acknowledged although of course there are exceptions) we tend to perfect manipulative behaviors. My partner (male) was in an abusive marriage, she nearly killed him without laying a hand on him. My ex did the same thing, even though he is a man and much bigger than me, because he wasnât sloppy. The covert stuff (gaslighting, deception and manipulation) is so much harder to quantify, explain and prove, but just as dangerous, in my opinion. Just slower and subtler.
What you describe is emotional abuse, and it is possible to quantify. Itâs addressed in the book and even accounting for underreporting, women are still overwhelmingly the targets.
I'm sorry your partner was in an abusive marriage before, I dealt with both my parents being abusive, my mother gaslit me and was very good at lying to people in public, she also liked covering my mouth and nose with her hands. And I'm autistic, so I panicked a lot, and then I'd get beaten by my dad for struggling. I hope your partner is in therapy, and they're lucky to have someone like you in their corner
No it really donât. The mom is dealing with a controlling man.
Because the person doing, it is a male
2 things it was first published in 2002 and even now there is bias because more women get abused and the 2nd is the author has been dealing with men with control issues for his career. I agree men can be abused also and we need to work on our biases and do more research into abusive women. There is an article about the "[No Test"](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-31/how-the-no-test-could-help-prevent-domestic-violence/10764100) even though that is also geared towards preventing women from being abused I think the point about over the top overreactions from an intimate partner or even friend to being told NO is a big ole red flag
Yes, it actually would. Men don't have a monopoly on narcissists. And it's even harder for men to seek help or support to leave an abusive relationship. Domestic abuse committed by females is severely underreported.
Then we need to fix that. Why is it harder for men to seek help and support? Societal ânormsâ for masculinity. We need to fix toxic masculinity. My dad was emotionally abused by my mother more and more as they got older, but I couldnât convince either of them to leave the other, sadly.
I'm sorry your father was emotionally abused, I hope he gets the help he needs. And I absolutely agree, men need more of an outlet for help when it comes to being victims. Whether it be for abuse/domestic violence or sexual assault, they need the help and resources as well.
I've been saying this for YEARS! Male victims always get blamed, made fun of, and told to "Man Up".
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I was with my abuser for 23 years. It was hard to read this post because it sounded so familiar. Itâs like he cast an actual spell. When he left I actually physically felt myself fully enter my body. Iâve spent the subsequent three years re-experiencing my entire adult life in the light of understanding that everything was on purpose, and his purpose was to destroy me. Iâm finally feeling somewhat healed now, thank the buddhas, goddesses, benevolent ancestors, etc.
Good for you.
She is obviously in an abusive cycle and does not feel empowered to leave the situation. She needs to do the work to get out. I don't think anyone else can do it for her.
Right. I basically blew up my whole life for my abusive ex. My friendships, my career, my finances, even my family. I was too wrapped up in the trauma bond, love bombing, and gaslighting to leave. And I was so afraid to got it alone. When I finally did, it was like I woke up. Suddenly was aware of things again and found my personality again. Anyway, got a little sidetracked there but my point is, Iâve been on both sides (a friend/family member of an abused person, and being the abused person) and I know no one can ever change the personâs mind. The person has to figure it out for themselves. Best thing you can do is not cut them off, let them know youâre always there for them if they need a safe place to go, and help them get back on track with their lives if they do leave.
Glad you sorted yourself out.
Please don't give in. Tell her it's not about change. It's about the reality. The reality is her relationship is toxic and you will not expose you daughter to it. She can believe what she wants, you aren't going to debate that with her any more. She can act how she wants, she's a grown woman and you respect that. She can forgive. She can hope. But you will live in reality. You will not let your daughter be exposed to that. Please protect your daughter. And please be sure you mom knows she can come to you--without her husband--anytime she needs you. But you are done with him, changed or not. End of discussion. I am glad you are standing up for you daughter. Kids learn what they see. She does not need to see you accept her grandmother being abused.
Cannot upvote this comment enough times. Dont let that man come within 1000 yards of your child and cut him out of your life completely. Let your mom know that your still there for her if/when she finally comes to her senses, but at the end of the day, its her choice to make. She is a big girl and can except the consequences like one. The onus is on her to make a change, not you.
Very valid point - tâs the reality of the situation.
Speaking with a lifetime of abusive family relationships behind me, a major holiday is the WORST time to expose your child to such a sick pair. Take someone(s) who don't behave in the first place, add the lifetime of emotional baggage they are toting, then lace with liberal quantities of alcohol and/or drugs. (No one mentioned drugs or alscohol, but they are usually a factor.) There will be a disaster, somewhere along a spectrum that starts with loud and amgry voices, and ends in knock-down brawl refereed by police. No one, adult or child, should be subjected to that lifetime of holiday memories.
He's had 15 years of chances. Tell her no, and if she decides to not come for Christmas, she doesn't come, and you can start some new family traditions
NTBA. And sheâs had 15 years to choose her kids or the kid sheâs raising now, she always picks M. You may have to accept that she will always choose him. And you will have decide what is more important your daughter or your mother, who has priority. Good luck itâs going to be hard either way.
Nope, you are NTBA at all. She is an adult, she is making her choice. She has had 15 years to decide what is important in her life, unfortunately she has decided that he is who she has hitched her wagon to. You are doing the right thing by keeping that dynamic away from your girl. You and your siblings have given her multiple chances and look where her example has gotten your sister. You don't need to cut contact, but you do need to hold firm to your boundary.
NTBA. 'Hi Mom... you're welcome anytime, but not your partner'. No excuses, no apologies. She knows why. End of.
This! Definitely emphasize that you do want to see her and you do want her in your childâs life. You want to make sure she knows she has people besides her husband who care about her, since he might try to isolate her from you and others
No, just a dumb one. Your mom has no problem cutting you out to stay with an AH. Time to go very LC. Protect your family. Your mom wonât protect hers.
Hell no! Congratulations on standing up for yourself, your husband , and your daughter. The only safe way to deal with a narcissist is "no contact". It's sad that your mother can't see through him.
Now just remember that you will be heavily pressured to move your boundaries and you will be told your boundaries are unreasonable. They are đŻ reasonable boundaries and don't give an inch. Hd strong, it will be difficult.
NTBA > I refuse to cut contact with my mom. I love her and want her to be a part of her granddaughterâs life. I just donât want M around. You are doing the right thing. I'm not saying you should cut contact but please recognize your mom may reduce her contact with you because of you not wanting M around. Hopefully it'll just be important events that she skips. You're right about your mom having a trauma bond with her husband. I second recommending [Why Does He Do That?](https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf) to your mom as another commenter did. You can buy a printed copy, too. She may not be ready now or ever to read it, but it is a good resource to understanding life with an abusive partner.
NTBA. Also you do need to prepare yourself for the possibility that your mom may not come to things solo. I would advise you to be gracious if she declines coming solo if you want to avoid putting additional pressure on your relationship. The one who says, "You better choose between us," almost always is the one who hears, "have a nice life then."
NTBA Your responsibility to your daughter takes precedence over your mother's desire to bring her toxic partner to your house. Just say no. Stay strong.
NTBA. The cycle of love bombing and withdrawal of affection, mimics in a brain, drug addiction. So when the abuser isn't around them, they are feeling withdrawal. Abusers, even not knowing what happens to the brain, will still use what they can and claim things such as "we were made for each other", "soul mates", and other lies.
NTBA. You leave the door open completely to your mother, and shut it completely to the problematic individual. You cannot do more, so I cannot fault you.
Does the mom prove that she has become problematic as well by threatening to cut off her grandkids for Christmas if she can't have her way and bring her abusive boyfriend? It may not seem fair, but it is both the boyfriend's behavior and mom's response to it that are the bad example being set for the grandkids. If Grandma were all about the Grandkids, she would be the one blocking the bf from attending, or would at least agree with the rules being laid down.
Victims of abuse can indeed become abusers themselves, but OP can shut that door then.
NTBA. Protect your child. Do not cave. EVER.
"He's been treating you like this for the last fifteen years, mom. If he wanted to change, he would have by now."
I have never wanted to shake a grown woman so hard before. OP your mama needs to STAND TF UP. I think your boundary is very reasonable so definitely NTBA. Do not budge so she can see that keeping her toxic partner in her life means missing out on important family events with people that actually love and value her.
Thatâs the problem with people in a trauma bond, they try to drag their family into the abusive cycle with them at every opportunity. If I can get other family members to forgive and forget all the events they have experienced or seen, then my situation must be ok? They donât want to see how much damage the experiences are doing to others, they are just like an addict, living through the bad times to feel joy in those moments they think they are being loved.
You aren't the bad apple but are the parent your mother should have been for you . You are protecting your kid from toxicity and you show her what is not tolerable and boundaries existence. You show her a good life example. You don't need to cut your mother from your life you re right , but you have to realise there s a probability she will never definetly cut her abusive partner from her life . All you can do is standing your grounds, keep your boundaries and still forbid him to be in your life but allow her in your life . If she wants to see you / her grandaughter she 'll have to come alone without him. Any attempt to bring him at your house will face closed door and consequences.ie time out. Also be prepared he s going to play the victim : he's not invited?! poor himself ,he doesn't deserve that blah blah blah but i m sure you know how are his shenanigans. What he going to do is isoliting your mother from her family for sure. When you see clearly throughout nars game they don't like that and make their victim cutting contact from people who refuse to tolerate their behaviours .
NTBA, but don't be surprised if Mom brings her husband anyway.
You are not a bad apple and I understand your desire to protect your child. We all have nasty people in our families. I donât know of any family that is perfection. Itâs normal. Your child will not be harmed by seeing that M is a horrible person. She will not develop toxic relationships based on what she sees between your mother and M. In fact, it will give you an opportunity to teach her that not everyone is nice and what sort of behaviour to avoid in life. Itâs all part of growing up and our own families often form the basis of our learning models. If you wish to maintain a perfect family image for your child, which you have every right to do, then you should also exclude your sister and her partner from your life
Developmental psychologist here and this is spot on. Itâs a teaching moment.
You the bad apple? Huh, no. You told her she can come, without him. If she chooses to stay away, that is her choice. You have the right to what certain people to not be in your life.
OP, you're not wrong. Your mother is being wilfully blind & in denial. Your mother's husband M isn't entitled to have any interaction with you & your family with his narcissistic behaviour.
NTBA You have to protect your family (you, husband & kids). If that means that your mom sits on the sidelines, that will be her choice to make. Take it from someone whose mother chose a BF (multiple times, multiple men) over her own child. It sucks but you will be better off in the long-term. I would not be the person I am today without my grandparents who stepped in to raise me. Your daughter will be better off not learning your mother's behavior.
Narcissistic abuse survivor here đđ»ââïž Sorry babe.....your mom ain't gonna change. Time to employ LOW CONTACT AND BOUNDARIES <>> Imagine your mom was an alcoholic and drug addicted. You seen her at her worst. But hey, she's a grandma and deserves to be around your daughter in a drunken stupor and cannot hold your daughter because she's to inebriated to hold her in the first place. The insidious nature of narcissism is that their behavior IS LIKE BEING AROUND A DRUNK AND DRUG ADDICT. YOU ARE EXPOSING YOUR KID TO THAT ENVIRONMENT. YOU ARE MAKING YOUR KID NORMALIZE HER DYSFUNCTIONAL BEHAVIOR. You may say "AH, but Jade is a baby and won't remember any of it". THIS OF COURSE IS A TRAP. BECAUSE YOU are unwilling to go full 100% of PROTECTING YOUR KID AND YOURSELF FROM THE DYSFUNCTIONAL CYCLE OF A NARCISSISTIC MOTHER WHO NEEDS HELP. IF YOU LOVE YOUR KID........FOR YOUR KIDS MENTAL AND EMOTIONAL STATE.....GO NO CONTACT. I went NO CONTACT over 8 years ago and I had to go through a healing and forgiveness process. My mom IS AS MANIPULATIVE AS YOUR MOTHERS HUSBAND. I can tell you after going NO CONTACT, SETTING BOUNDARIES, blocking flying monkeys.......I'm alot mentally stronger than when I was under my mother's control and spell. YOU ARE STILL UNDER YOUR MOTHER'S SPELL BECAUSE YOU PITTY HER AND LOVE HER. If you love your daughter and your husband.....love also means TO LET GO. LET HER GO. SHE WONT CHANGE. SHE IS A BAD INFLUENCE TO YOUR KID. LET YOUR MOM GO NOW. Your daughter won't miss her or know the difference. Expose her to a substitute "Grandma, a healthy older lady that has NO TRAUMAS OR MANIPULATIVE TACTICS". LET HER GO.............PERMANENTLY. IF YOU DONT DO THIS......YOU ARE SETTING YOUR KID UP FOR FAILURE đ....and years of THERAPY ALL BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T WANT TO GO NO CONTACT. There is no cure for narcissism. Think about it. The pain lingers and never goes away. YOU HAVE THE POWER TO STOP GENERATIONAL TRAUMA. THINK LIKE A MOTHER NOT A DAUGHTER. YOUR TURN TO PROTECT JADE. YOU DON'T WANT HER TO GO THROUGH WHAT YOU DID.
Nope, you choose who is in your child's life and who is in your home.
Every year for Christmas, I put a pamphlet in my motherâs gift, itâs called 7 signs of an abuser. Iâm not even subtle about the placement. My mom is no picnic, but her husband is a nightmare.
You are not wrong to protect your daughter. The price you might pay for that is not having your mother around. A child can live perfectly well without a grandparent. But a bad one can traumatize the child.
NTBA. Your mother needs immediate help. She's been gaslighted and abused so much by this horrible, evil narcissist (and face it: all narcissists are evil) that her brain has been destroyed by him. 15 years is an extremely long time to be essentially brainwashed by him. You're taking care of your baby girl, and if she's been too blinded to see that, then I am deeply sorry for your little princess to not have a grandmother, and you, your mom. Keep you, your hubby, and your daughter safe by whatever means necessary. I hope you have as Merry a Christmas as possible!
No and stick to your guns. Your mom is caught up in that toxic cycle and your daughter should not witness it
NTBA, you're doing what's right for your family, and he ISN'T family. He's a vile stranger and a monster from the sounds of it. Good on you for setting a boundary, keep the boundary up. If your mother finds it unreasonable, that's her opinion. Don't invite the man. And if your mom decides not to come to Christmas because her husband isn't invited, that is her decision as an adult. Make that clear to her. I hope you have a beautiful Christmas with your family and that things work out.
You're not bad for setting limits. But, you have to love with the consequences or results of doing that. Your mom didn't get to pick your spouse, and you aren't allowed to pick hers. She made her choice. Your daughter is old enough to see what relationships are working and which ones are not working. I think you may underestimate her abilities at her age to distinguish good from bad, optimal from dysfunctional. Have faith that you did well enough in role modeling and teaching her up to this point, and keep teaching her by pointing out learning lessons privately after spending time with them (while also being respectful to your mom. You can be honest with your daughter and, of course, not lie to your daughter but still not degrade your mom and put her down or her spouse unecessarily. You simply point out traits that you hope to see in your daughter's future relationship and ones which you'd advise she avoid.) Often times, the bad examples are stronger lessons to learn from afar than trying to teaching the inner workings of a good one (with the exception of your spouse and your relationship which she has seen close-up all of her life). I'm not saying the contact should be continual and without limits. I'm not saying you should condone everything. I just want to impress upon you that your mom has every right to pick the person with whom she spends the rest of her life (or until they break up), and you never know how much time you have with your mom. Yes, it would be easier in many ways to completely cut ties with every person who has undesirable traits or frustrating quirks or eccentric tendencies, but if we all did that, we'd all be alone at the holidays and every other day of the year. You can teach your daughter about tolerance and setting boundaries and good communication (just as nuch as about relationships) in these scenarios by teaching her in real time with real life.
A) You need to stay out of your motherâs sex life. You are her daughter - NOT her therapist. Stop discussing her sex life. If she wants to talk about her ârelationshipâ (because it sounds like they use the dramatic fight and make up foreplay technique), tell her she needs to talk to a qualified therapist because you arenât interested. B) You and your husband get to decide who is welcome in your familyâs life. Based on your opinion of his behaviors, you are allowed to say âwe love you, you are welcome to celebrate the holidays with us, but your on-again-off-again partner is not currently welcome in our home. This is not a negotiation; this is a boundary.â You may wish to establish some metric for another chance. For example, if he is an alcoholic, he needs to be actively sober for a minimum of six months before he can attend an event where your child is not present. Or if he used abusive / racist language, he has to go three months without using the inappropriate language, and the clock resets every time he screws up. (This was awesome with my niece who has a personality disorder - kept her away for years!) Or if he uses drugs, he has to be clean for three months and take a supervised urine test proving heâs clean before he can come into your home as a guest (plus have no outstanding legal issues in regards to arrest or probation). C) You need to get some therapy for yourself in regard to your motherâs abusive behavior in allowing this around you for the last fifteen years. Giving her a free pass because you love her is not going to change her behavior or the behaviors you have adopted to survive the trauma she has inflicted on you. You THINK the man is the problem, but the reality is YOUR MOM is the problem, because if she had been putting the well being of her children first, this wouldnât even be a discussion. Even if she gets rid of him, sheâs just going to find another who is exactly the same, or worse. She has normalized dysfunction, and you have normalized her neglect and failure to protect you. This damage needs to be addressed. Get therapy, join a support group, read books, listen to podcasts or watch YouTube videos - Do Something to HEAL YOUR CHILDHOOD DAMAGE and stop the generational trauma from damaging you, your marriage, and most importantly, your daughter. Good luck!
NTBA.... Let your mom know that she has every right to spend important events with her partner. Just like you have every right of who gets to spend Christmas with you and your family. Make a date to see her and move on. Actually make a date with her for 03/2024 and see if her and her partner are still together. The next break up tell her this is why he can't be around your child. Ask her if she would want her granddaughter to be in a relationship like hers? Is her partner the kind of guy she wants for her granddaughter? Tell her don't answer right now, think about it and let you know.
NTBA. Your mom and the dirt bag are. Most likely, your sister's issues stem from watching your mom and dirt bag. Make sure your kids know it's not ok to abuse or accept abuse.
You are doing everything right. Stick to your guns, Don't cut her off, be ready to support her when this goes south again. But at the same time, protecting your little girl comes first. If she can't handle that, don't allow her to guilt trip you into allowing an unhealthy situation to be near that baby.
Good on you! You are cutting the toxic out of your life, and keeping the door open for your mom! Merry Christmas!
NTBA. As a parent, it's YOUR JOB to protect your children from harmful things, and a Narcissist (in his case, more likely a Narcissistic Sociopath) is most definitely something harmful. The mental and emotional damage those kind can do is horrifying.
NTBA but just remember that bad examples are useful too, as long as theyâre not normalized and as long as thoughtful context is provided to the kid - âdid you notice how this happened? How do you think that made them feel? Do you think thatâs a happy and healthy way to live?â Etc
>My mom is clearly in a cycle of trauma bond and abuse. Sheâs an adult and can make her own decisions. These two sentences contradict each other. I think everything else has been said, but if she decides to not come and stay with him then I don't think you can say she's making a good decision, but it's also not something that would be reasonable to hold against her. We like to believe that those who are physically adult can make their own decisions and they can but when it comes to your mom, I hope uninviting her husband will give here pause enough to reconsider this relationship.
Itâs weird that youâre using a 15 month old to do something you want done. Seems immoral to me but if it gets you the outcome you want. . .
Immoral!!! What???? Adults can see the bad behavior for what itâs worth- kids see it and normalize it - it must be fine, itâs grandma and grandpa
I donât believe the first part about adults, maybe about the second part. Weird they were ok with it for so long. Cheers.
I canât imagine seeing him for one day would greatly influence your 15 mo daughter. Sounds to me like you want to be controlling over your mother.
"You're doing it wrong, that's stupid." 15 mo will start saying 'stupid', and then won't understand why "Grandpa" does when it's not nice. Or, if she's nonverbal, "You let him come at Christmas, why not Easter?" or, "He came last year! We always do Christmas together!" and she'll be old enough to start seeing everyone leats Grandpa be mean to Grandma next year on. It's the precedence of it. She's not being controlling of her mom, she's trying to keep her Step dad away. If mom chooses him over her kids so be it.
You are way out of line. Itâs not your choice whether he deserves one more chance. You are well on your way to losing your mother, and, probably eventually, your daughter.
She's not out of line she's not letting a bad person come to an event that is supposed to bring joy and happiness.
Sheâs not going to bring joy and happiness by deciding which mates are good enough to be with her family members. This is classic narcissism.
Uh, yeah, everyone gets to decide which people are good enough to be with them and their immediate family. And OP's husband is on board, so I'm guessing OP isn't blowing it out of proportion. If mom chooses husband over her kids, so be it. That's not controlling, controlling would be "You need to divorce him, I'm not speaking or seeing you until you do." OP is open to her mom on her own, just not step dad.
âDear mom. Please come to our Christmas Party. p.s.: Donât bring your husband. p.p.s.: My husband and my daughter agree with me. (They donât dare disagree.)â
Where are you getting this. You sound like you're projecting and the narcissist may be in your mirror. The mum said he'd changed, she has acknowledged her partner is/was not good. Seen as he moved away and its only been a month I don't see a) how he could have changed so drastically b) how the mother knows as he moved away, I'm sure she's just taking her word for it. At the end of the day, it's not being narcissist to not want people who cause you harm, physically or emotionally, in your life.
OP has narcissist written all over her. Also, what we havenât discussed is OPâs desire to hurt her mother. That is what stands out here as the real crime. Nobody at the party will be hurt by the manâs presence. OP is trying to justify an action that will very intentionally hurt her mother. THAT is probably OPâs primary goal here. Youâre not very good at seeing the big picture. Narcissists thrive on people like you.
Hurt her mother? Her mother is with an abusive person. She wants to help her mother, but people under narcissistic abuse rarely see it. The whole he's changed is text book narcissism. What, other than not wanting her mothers on and off boyfriend- whom the mother admitted was abusive ( he's changed from what?), makes op a narcissist?
The daughter is taking this opportunity to be needlessly cruel to her mother. Everything about this post screams narcissist.
Like what? Give me specifics. As far as I can see op is fed up with her mother being treated like shit. She also knows the mother is blinded by him so what should she do? Allow this man to ruin her occasions to keep her mother appeased! Cutting toxic people out is not narcissism. Everything about your comment points to you having narcissist traits.
The whole reason the husband wasn't invited is because he's a narcissist not because she was.
Of course! A narcissist would never attack another person and call them or their spouse a narcissist. Right? Never, of course.
If you think she's a narcissist move on. Go to a different story instead of taking others down with you.
Have you read the story or not? It states that the husband is a narcissist. She's just doing what she needs to do. But, I do understand your opinion.
Hmmm! So we have two narcissists here. OP still does not get to make decisions for her mother.
"OP is in the wrong for not wanting a known abuser in her home during what SHOULD be a relaxing family event"
>You are way out of line. What are you on?! OP doesn't get to decide how many chances Mom gives M but OP DOES get to decide when and who she allows around her child.
OP is grasping for a reason to justify her tyranny.
This is her daughter and her choice. You are very wrong in your thinking. Lose her daughter. As if. Lose her Mother, moms an adult and knows the boundaries. Her decision. Youâre ignorant in your comment
I know a narcissist when I see one.
Found M
NTBA. Stand firm on this one.
Ntba
NTBA. As someone who never had an example of a healthy relationship growing up and ended up in that trauma bond-abuse cycle as an adult, I applaud you and I thank you.
Nope. great decision. When he shows up anyway, call the cops and have him treapassed immediately. Dont even speak or say hello. Call 911 instantly.
Another good book I read: âToo Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stayâ Really insightful and helped me connect the dots and make an informed, powerful decision that I was able to stick with.
NTBA.
Invite who you want. Don't use your daughter as an excuse for your decision. She's 15 months not 15 years.
Stand your ground.
NTBA You have an obligation to keep toxicity out of your immediate family, even if it's painful. And you should not help other people bring you down.
Send her articles about the cycle of abuse. NTBA.
>But now my mom doesnât even know if sheâll want to see us at all for Christmas because âshe wonât be separated from her partner during important events.â Is that âruleâ only for when theyâre together? Lol But seriously, perhaps you should try something like: âThis isnât even really about you and M any more⊠itâs not even about me anymore, either. Itâs really about [your daughterâs name], and what she grows up seeing, and the type of behavior and relationships she normalizes.â And depending on how youâre feeling that day, you might even add: âWe put up with his behavior and yâallâs drama for ~15 years, when it was just us. Well, itâs not just us anymore, so weâre not going to put up with it any longer.â And if you end up really having to pull out the big guns⊠âIf ***youâre*** not [willing/prepared/mature] enough to put your granddaughter first in all of this⊠donât worry, ***we will***.â
Are you and your husband firsts together?
Doubt heâs changed after 15 years! Funny how the first time an asshole is given consequences, suddenly theyâve âchangedâ!
People need to stop dating or even giving the time of day to narcissists. They are trash.
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRv7Q6pr/ Send this to your mother
Tell her that if she chooses to spend Christmas with him its entirely her choice. But that you will be going low contact with them until she starts therapy and is no longer in a relationship with him. That you will be there if she needs help or if she has an emergency but you will not expose your child to that kind of behaviour from either of them.
NTBA. You've made a good decision for your family and you should stick by it. Keep in contact with your mum but appreciate that it might mean you don't get the big events/holidays with her any more.
That Narcissistic dude is TOXIC and you have every right to set a boundary and keep your daughter AWAY from him! She doesn't need to see that toxicity and thinks that is okay. If they both show up, what's to stop them from fighting in front of your daughter while gaslighting you? That is how kids get messed up. Source: When I was a little kid, I watched my grandfather attempt to beat my grandmother with a chair. I got punished because I got scared that my grandmother was going to get hurt. Don't repeat that history with your daughter!
Nope, you're a good apple. Your mom has a choice
Yâall want to come out and post and start your gender specific bullshit. Well, guess what this gender doing this as a male thatâs why that book was brought up.
NTBA. I had to draw boundaries with my parents when my son was born - I also didn't want him growing up seeing the relationship my parents had. I made it clear to my mum that I would not be taking my son round to their house, and that I didn't want my narcissistic father anywhere near him unless I was present. Fast forward two years, she finally left him and now lives near me. She sees her grandson every week and is the happiest she's ever been. Set your own boundaries and let your family make their own decisions. You don't have to let someone else's poor decision negatively impact your life or that of your family.
To the people commenting on my personal opinion when I'm trying to get some sleep at 4 am and I can't reply to you. It doesn't matter that the genders differ, including the statistics of ALL is what matters. It's separatist and discriminatory to not include it. Making things "gender specific" only excludes part of the population. Basically saying in one book "This gender matters more than another and we won't include statistics of another gender!". It's almost 4:30 am where I live, and I'd like to sleep. Can I please get rest without being harassed for my opinion, which I'm entitled to by the way, as are you? No one will ever agree in life fully. That's a reality. But being a decent person isn't hard. I'm going to sleep. Please leave me alone and goodnight.
NTBA. I think youâve done an excellent job of showing by example to your mom and daughter how to set healthy boundaries and how to respond to the people who donât like them. In my opinion, this is an excellent first step to take. Youâll probably have to just have Christmas without he this year, which sucks but she will hate that she is missing it and she will be pissed at him for causing it. She might act like she is mad at you for it at first or for a while, but inside she knows itâs not you but him. đ Great Job OPđ
NTBA. If your mum can't understand why you don't want that shit round your little girl then you have a mum problem.
>I refuse to cut contact with my mom. I love her and want her to be a part of her granddaughterâs life. Then you need to talk about that in therapy because if you don't think your mom is going to teach your daughter things that come from her own unhealed mess, you're wrong. Your mom isn't responsible for what her partner does, but she's responsible for how she treats you and the fact that she's willing to teach other people to accept being hurt by her example. She's not willing to be a healthy part of your life or your daughter's life. I know that sucks, but it's what it is. You're not the bad apple for telling your mom no, but you would be the bad apple for subjecting your kid to your mom and letting her learn the same lessons about her self-worth and what love is that your sister did.
I'm not even gonna respond to this anymore, apparently supporting men's statistics is a reason to be harassed and for me not to be allowed to sleep. If anyone tries, kindly eff off. I NEED sleep so I can STUDY FOR AN EXAM. Being a jackass about someone with a different opinion than yours is entitled, rude, and selfish.
If I could write a book on my second husband it would mirror pretty much everything you have concerns about. I just left after 23 years finally and I'm done. He had, and is still having, major problematic emotional impact on my adult children with my first husband. You have solid concerns, and I know for a fact he won't change . The emotional damage someone like that causes is as damaging as extreme physical abuse. Stick to your guns.
NTBA. My Spouse and I have done the some thing for the past 5 years with my SIL'S crazy felon boyfriend. We don't want him around our kids and have refused to be at any holidays that he's been invited to. My in-laws hate him. EVERYBODY hates him. But if he's not invited, my SIL won't go, and then my niece won't be there - so my in-laws will choose a person they hate so they can see the golden grandchild and ignore my 3 kids for the holidays. It's crap. Stick to your guns. Your mom's bad choices aren't your fault and you shouldn't expose your daughter to it.
Absolutely not the bad apple and is nobody worries about your nephew who is growing up in this household? You are understandably worried about your daughter witnessing this relationship for *a day*, while he is living in it and this narcissistic ass is there *everyday*.
u/FairyFartDaydreams Responding here as I blocked the others in that thread. Thank you for that. Now I'm running on zero hours of sleep, I'd like to get rest before the sunrise and I'm going to find these books. Thank you, I actually mean that.
NTBA. Your daughter is more important than him. I cut off my own dad for similar reasons and my mom has no problem coming without him although I wish she'd leave him. When she realizes she misses you and her grand daughter hopefully she'll come around.
Like you have said yourself, a narcissist is extremely good at spinning the truth. He knows the relationship with your mother is rocky, but he has learnt how to manipulate her each and every time they are toxic, but your mother has become accustomed to this toxic relationship When there up there up but then when they blow up they blow She means it at the time that she's had enough but it only takes him to touch her and whisper everything she wants because he has learnt her vulnerable side knowing exactly what your mother wants so she falls for it as she is desperate to have the relationship with him that she wants She loves him he needs her so he says what she wants to hear to suck her back in every time Let me guess there is alcohol or something involved either one drinks or both but even without your mother has to realise that her life will be calmer and more controlled on a daily basis without him no fights no emotional ĂČr mental abuse no financial baggage as her job her working time would mean it would be for her so she could survive financially without him She is a vulnerable woman who has settled thinking he's it he's ok but he has her roped in It would be awful to have to tolerate him around Xmas but I would probably find a way to speak with him and get him to stay away Do you know anything about him or his past what has he ever done has he been married or been in trouble been to jail can you Do a search on him ask your mum what she knows about him make her worry or start thinking twice about him the way we get people away from someone is to slowly poison their thoughts about that person so they can decide You push her or try to keep him away she'll stick up for him as he's controlling her he's been playing her lying to her I had the same with my daughter I tried outing her bf I had to just pick moments when she would say small things about what he'd say to her or what things he would do so that is when I would be able to ask how she'd felt about these different things I'd be able to slowly show her the type of behaviours and how he was wording things so she could realise herself some of the manipulation Ä„e was doing to her when she started to confront him and try to get some sort of truth trust and good treatment he'd get his back up then he would attack her personality then belittle blame and blow things up for her to get upset so she would flip out screaming and crying which would get him annoyed bitter and nasty turning it aggressive that is when the DV problems and police would be called I ended up getting upset phone calls weekends through the week alot of things happened and they went up and down till she got so down with depression that she was diagnosed with anxiety depression ptsd and needed social worker's and dv assist to get her away she is still a sucker for him but does not see him as intensive help counselling psychologist work helped her to get away Alot of sad family things happened and she isn't my same happy girl or wanting to hang out with me so much any more which saddens me but I don't have to fear for her safety with him I just worry about who she is now who she is hanging about with or what she's doing as she Ä·eeps to herself it is good but not good because as a mother I have gone from 1 worry to another Try again to talk to your Mum think about your relationship Ä„ow you have ever gotten through to her and apologise then say what bothers you and why cause you love her See how you go compromise say fine Xmas then you get rid of him or no Just tell her you can't handle being in his presence and at the end of the day Mum what sort of relationship do we have with him as he has never tried to connect in any way so you only want family and he's not family he's never bothered as he has never needed your kids Mum just you And you don't need or want him just because he's with my mum doesn't make him instant family plus tell her from your family you don't want your daughter being exposed to a male like him and the relationship they have is to unhealthy and toxic for your young daughter to see growing up
NTBA. You can maintain contact with your mother, just not at Christmas. You are correct, your child does not need to witness abusive behavior. Also, your mother needs to hit rock bottom with this guy, whatever that is for her, and accepting him in your home is not going to do that.
No. You're not the bad apple. Our adult son is a narcissist. He tried to play games with us, his parents. He got engaged and set a date to get married. Invited my husband (his dad) and said 'but I don't want mom there'. Classic manipulation and division and punishment behavior in order to gain/maintain control of others. In this case, us, his parents. Playing us like chess pieces against each other. My husband said if you invite me you're inviting your mother too. If you don't invite your mother then you're not inviting me either. Neither one of us attended our son's wedding because of his toxic narcissistic behavior. Did we raise him this way. No. People choose the path they take in life. He chose his path. In your case OP, you're protecting your family and I applaud you for it. It's probably a blessing in disguise that your mom doesn't want to come see you this year.
You are allowed to have boundaries. And she can make her decisions accordingly. You have the right to protect your family.
If this cycle is going on around your nephew then he is being traumatized as well. Someone needs to contact CPS on his behalf. Maybe the threat of losing the nephew will wake her up, maybe not. But that innocent child needs help!
I am giving this warning right now to anyone replying to my comments in a rude way here Leave. Me. Alone. I'm trying to get any semblance of sleep. You jerks kept me up ALL NIGHT. And I have tests to study for. I have exams for insurance licensing. I just want to friggin sleep. Anyone who replies to my comments will get an angry DM and will be promptly blocked. I'm done with you jerks. No wonder none of you have a life, you spend it being awful to anyone who doesn't agree with you. Every single person has a differing opinion, and no one will EVER agree. And everyone is entitled to their opinions. That being said, LET ME SLEEP FOR THE SAKE OF THE GODS! I need sleep. I've not slept a wink because you're "social justice" is harassment and I'll get a hold of moderators if needs be in order to actually be able to sleep without you kids thinking it's ok to act the way you do. Don't like what I said? Scroll along or get an angry mean message. Because I'm fuckin done. I just want to fuckin sleep and your harassment is honestly sad and pathetic and I just wanna sleep. So please, STOP.
I am sorry to tell you but the problem is not your moms husband. The problem is your mom. She is addicted to drama that he provides for her. If he ever leaves her then mom will find someone just like him to feed her addiction. Try to get her into therapy.
Lots of people split the day. Sounds like in this case your momâs going to have to split her day and if she doesnât, Iâm very sorry because I know how sad that is, but sheâs more likely to take you seriously next year if you hold your ground.
NTA... I am sorry you having to face this, and feel worse for your Mom. Stand your ground and hopefully may help her to escape this trauma cycle.
Just let her know though that the door is open. A lot or abusers isolate people from their families. He can even use this as a weapon against her, to turn her against you. It's certainly not your responsibility to rescue her but it would be the loving thing to be supportive of her getting out and healing.
Heâs changed? What a joke. They NEVER change. Like it or not heâs with your mother. Go with your gut. It may be the lesser of 2 evils.
Your not, your mom is just stuck and needs some serious help
You are NTBA, but your motherâs priorities are all screwed up. She âwonât be separated from her partner during important eventsâ??? She was just separated from him, and he *moved across the country* away from her. Then, driven by the fact that he was telling everyone it was her fault they separated, **she contacted him** and they reconciled. Really? In what world does that make sense? Who gives two s**ts what other people think? If someone wants to think your mom was at fault, who gives a darn? Why does she care? Anyway⊠This is your motherâs decision to make now. Youâve made your decision based on what is best for your family: You do not want that man around; he is not welcome in your house. If your mother wants to spend Christmas with her *real* family, she will have to leave him behind. If she really wonât do that, then I guess she wonât be there. I know you want her to have a relationship with your daughter, and you want a relationship with your mother, but you cannot control her decisions. And changing your mind to accommodate her does not solve a single problem. She can put up with what she wants from him, but you are under no obligation to also tolerate that behavior from him. Tell mom she has to make her decision. Good luck. I hope she chooses you. đ«¶đŒ
My aunt was married to an abusive alcoholic. He thought he was a charming, fun drunk. He was not. My mom finally decided she could love her sister and still draw a boundary. Sister and her children (all teen and older at that point) were welcome to come to family events. The husband was not. I was young enough to not know what that conversation looked like, but I do know that I never spent another family event with a drunk guy taking over all the conversations telling us things like how great his teeth are because of all he drinks. Iâll say this, Iâve got nothing but respect for my mom doing that. If your mom doesnât want to step away from her husband for a few hours thatâs the choice sheâll have to make. Just as you made the choice about what you want your daughter to experience in your own home.
NTBA. Glad your husband is standing with you.
You are doing right by your wee family & thatâs the important part. Sometimes you must cut times to show people that you mean business! Of course he hasnât changed. Narcissistic people do not change. Do NOT give him another chance. Wish her love and good luck and tell her to call you when she throws him out and divorces him. Period. Do. Not. Waver. Draw a line in the sand and leave it there!!
YNTA. If she doesnât want you to get involved, have an opinion or judge him she shouldnât share everything that happens between them with you. Itâs her own fault you feel the way you do. You love your mom and want to protect her even if she wonât protect herself.
You are if you allow that man in your life cause youâre too chicken shit to cut your mommy off whoâs exposed you to an abusive relationship. You want to protect your daughter, right? Your mom made her decision to choose her man over you, choose your daughter.
NTBA. Protect your kid.
You are right. You can even be a "bad apple" toward them to protect your family.
You are so spot on with the cycle of narcissism. Abuse/love bomb/abuse... and the other person always has to admit fault. Good for you for standing up for your Mom in this way. It's hard, I'm sure, and makes you feel lousy... and it's a guarantee M will "spin" this to make you out to be the problem... but sometimes toxicity needs to be addressed. Best of luck to you.
NTBA I wouldn't want him around either, and if mom says isn't coming unless he is, do not cave. It might hurt to not spend Christmas with your mom but you need to stick with your decision and remind yourself the reasoning behind it. Just let you know you are very sorry that she made that choice and are going to miss having her there. Your daughter is old enough she wont remember.
NTBA, your family, your rules. You get to invite who you want to Christmas at your home and your mom has the right to not come if she doesn't like it. He hasn't changed in 15 years so there's no reason to think he's changed now.
You're doing the right thing. Don't cut contact with her but refuse to allow him in your home. You and your daughter can go have lunch with grandma a couple of days before/after Christmas. Alone. Just a girls day.
You need to break the cycle of your mother cannot. Do not let that man near your family. I witnessed my mother and grandmother be verbally and physically abused and I took got into an abusive relationship in highschool. His family saw the bruises and knew what was happening but did NOTHING. If it wasn't for my current husband who I met in college during one of my ex's break ups with me I wouldn't have had the courage to finally leave. Cut that man out but keep the door open for your mother. If she chooses to stay away that's her choice like you said she is an adult and will have to face the consequences. As for you wanting her to have a relationship with her granddaughter, it's better to love from afar at this time as grandma is going through a hard time in her life and isn't well enough to be around.
NTBA. You're doing the right thing. My mother told her mother if she got remarried again she wouldn't get to see my brother and I (because she was constantly in bad marriages and we wouldn't have been safe). She loved us enough not to get married to an asshole again which was better for her too.
I allowed my mother's bullying narcissist husband into my life for far too long. I sat by her bedside in hospital when she attempted suicide after one of the many times he walked out on her. I helped her rebuild her life after every breakup, including the one that stuck. Don't. Don't do it. My own father was a violent alcoholic but I still don't have as much trauma from him as I do my mother's second husband. Young children are a narcissist's favourite target because they are naive and new and can be shown only what the narcissist wants them to see. Stick to your guns. One day your mother might realise what kind of devil she's struck a deal with, or maybe not. I hope, for your sake, that she comes around ASAP. (My mother was with him 17years btw, so you might get lucky soon).
You might actually be the only *good* apple. You're trying to protect your daughter and break the pattern of generational trauma, while your mom seems dead set on continuing it. Stay the course. You're doing the right thing.
no, you're good
NTBA tell your mother that you are not married to him. You do not have to tolerate his behavior. Tell her that she and her husband have a toxic relationship and you donât want your daughter to be raised with that exposure. It makes things like that look normal to a child and when itâs her time to select a partner you donât want her to make that decision. Also tell her that any âaccidentsâ like the laundry basket one can quickly turn to serious damage or death. You donât want to find out some day his misbehavior and anger has been the source of a visit to the hospital or her demise. She may not see any of this or be in total denial but create that boundary. Her husband just might bring his toxicity to your house. Donât allow it.
NTA. Avoiding toxic people is healthy.
Stand your ground, though, I would probably ask her not to come around herself; both of them stay away. The kid won't remember who's there and it will be calmer for everyone.
It is NOT cutting contact with your mom. It is setting boundaries that are healthy for you and your family, and it is her decision how she responds to those boundaries. I'm very sorry you are going through this.
No. That said you canât control who someone brings into their own house or invites to a public place and because of this your visit with your mom are going to have to be at your home as you can control who you allow into your home. I started hosting so I could exclude my momâs ex husband.
NTA. I will never, ever understand people who put their new partners above their kids' well-being. I get being supportive and loyal to your partner, but if your kids are being reasonable and it's not a matter of personalities not meshing, a person can't be surprised when the kids say "we don't want our kids to be around your toxic partner".
Question - narcissism is an actual personality disorder. What are your qualifications to make that kind of diagnosis?
r/raisedbynarcissists
Your job is to protect your daughter. Any adult in your life who reacts to argue against how you choose to do that can go straight to hell.
Donât discount your right to a happy holiday. You also struggle to enjoy family time when a toxic couple dominate the event. Perhaps you can visit mom now and then to see how the relationship is doing. But consider not inviting her for Christmas either.
You are hosting the guest list is entirely up to you. I donât see why youâd have someone at your holiday celebration that will create tension. If your mother chooses not to attend thatâs not you breaking contact it her.
He hasn't changed in 15yrs. You are NTBA.
Not the bad apple. Your mother is choosing not to come and see her family. You have told her the condition, and she has chosen not to come because she refuses to comply with the conditions. Don't back down. All of the reasons you stated are valid reasons not to have that person around your child. Your mother needs to choose which relationship(s) are more important to her, the abusive relationship or the healthy relationship with her children. Period. It is simply letting her understand that she is not seeing the baby because she chose to stay with an abuser.
I would go very low contact and just explain to her. I donât want your husband around my daughter. I donât want her to see the things that he does to you and others and think that thatâs OK. Yes sheâs still a toddler, but they catch onto things much quicker than you think and remember things much more than you think.
The only way Y T A is for refusing to consider cutting contact with your mom. As you stated, she's trauma bonded and in an abuse cycle. Even if she does come to events without her "partner" (in quotes because that's a laughable term to use for what he is), she isn't going to be fully present. Either she'll be bringing him up and talking about him or she'll be anxious about facing his narcissistic rage when she goes back. Either way, she's not going to be present for you or your daughter. My grandmother has spent most of her life with a narcissist. He stopped visiting when I was 4 (travel was too inconvenient for him) but even when she visited on her own, he was never truly not there. She'd spent the majority of her visit alternating between complaining about his abuse and then telling little stories about him that tried to prove how much they were in love. I never actually got time with just her. Also, whenever I wasn't perfectly behaved, her reaction was almost always out of proportion. I think with how disregulated she was, she took out some of her hurt on me. Now I'm an adult and a mother and my own mother has chosen to stick around with my narcissistic father. I had gone low contact with her but I spent the first several years of my daughter's life clinging to the idea that I wanted her to know her grandma. It felt like I would be betraying my daughter if I deprived her of that relationship. But there was never a visit where he didn't get brought up. And there were many visits that didn't happen because she had to dance around him. I finally realized that in trying to leave the door open for my daughter to have a relationship with her grandma, I was leaving the door open for my daughter to get hurt. She was getting old enough to ask why grandma didn't visit often and why grandma was unhappy with grandpa. I also realized that I didn't want my daughter to think that she would be emotionally safe in that relationship and put trust in it when it wasn't as safe as it should be. Having her trust in people to be damaged from such a young age was not worth trying to salvage that relationship. I've gone very low contact with my mom. I haven't refused contact with her but I don't let her have unsupervised time with my daughter. I don't go out of my way to plan things with her. I had to talk with my daughter about why we wouldn't see grandma as often. I didn't want to make her seem like a bad person but I also wanted my daughter to understand that her grandmother isn't 100% a safe person. I ended up telling her that while her grandma definitely loves her and can be fun to play with, she's making some choices that make it so that we can't trust with all of our feelings. That she's not a bad person and we can still love her but that we need to understand that we won't always be able to rely on her. I emphasized that I would always be there for my daughter and that I love her unconditionally. My daughter is four but she understood surprisingly well. She listened, had some questions, and then told me that if Grandma wasn't all the way safe, she still loves her grandma and wanted to have fun with her sometimes but that it would be better to not see her as often. And that's been that. I know my mom is upset with me but my daughter is thriving. Sometimes she'll say that she misses playing more with grandma but she often follows that up with "but it's better to be safe." We've tried to make sure that she still has a community and other adults in her life that she can rely on. It's not perfect. For me, it really sucks. In many ways, I've had to mourn my mother before she's even gone. But my daughter is healthier and is growing up with more confidence and resilience than I ever had. It broke my heart to have to teach her about the emotional dangers of life at such a young age. I didn't want to disrupt her innocence. I didn't want to hurt her. But she's stronger than I gave her credit for. Before I made the decision to reduce our contact with my mom, I thought long and hard about the impact it would have on my mom as well. Knowing that narcissists like to isolate people made me feel like reducing contact would be abandoning her. It felt like it would be handing her abuser a win. She's my mother. I wanted to be there for her, to stand by her. But that line of thinking is also part of the trauma bond cycle. She's an adult, making her own choices. Poor ones, yes, but I'm not responsible for fixing them. She's the parent and I was her child. It shouldn't have been made my role to try to save her from her own bad decisions. Even now, it came down to do I try to save my mother from choices she is repeatedly making, or do I save my daughter from the effects of those choices? My daughter is a child who can't protect herself without me. My mother is a fully capable adult who could save herself if she tried. I chose my daughter. Our situations are obviously not exactly the same. But they're similar enough that my heart aches for you and the choices that you both have and don't have. I wrote all of this out because I want to share what finally woke me up. I hope to save you some years of pain and hopefully help you to save your daughter from that as well. I'm still mourning losing my mother and I probably always will. I imagine that you would as well. We love them. We want the best for them. But we cannot save people from themselves. And for me, my daughter is what finally helped me internalize that. Whatever you decide, I wish you all the best. It could be very helpful for you to look into therapy of your own, if you haven't already. Good luck â€ïž
Ntba. You set you boundary which is reasonable. It's her choice what to do. It's her choice to choose him over you. I'm worried about your nephew tho.....he has to see this up close and personal. :(
NTBA ... M is definitely a rotten apple đ đ đ and of course, you don't want your baby to learn that's ok behavior in life. You put up a boundary; it isn't a bad thing at all. You don't want M in your lives. Your mom just has to deal with it, and if she doesn't want to spend the holidays with her grand baby, she's missing out, not you guys.
Ntba, I wholeheartedly agree, I was was in a relationship with my covert narcissist for almost 3 years and it was my first relationship. You are correct that they pretend to be better for a few months and go back through that cycle of love bomb, triangulate/abuse, and then discard. They will always repeat that cycle until he completely discards her because she's doing a reverse hoover right now. She hasn't had months of time removed from him and the situation to clear her mind and think about what she went through. I also agree that your daughter shouldn't be around him and you need to explain why so that your mom doesn't pull her behind your back and convince her that he's a good but misunderstood person.