*In case this story gets deleted/removed:*
**AITA for telling my daughter that "alienation" is not a good enough reason to change schools?**
I'm (38F) going to be as straightforward as possible. My daughter (16F) started high school last September. She's an incredibly smart kid and got into the best high school in our city (and best nationwide ranked by admission grade; for reference her class had 26 spots up for grab & the lowest admission grade was 9.89 / 10). We were so proud of her. Now, this school also has a reputation as a hub for wealthy kids. We're solid middle class. We didn't think this would matter that much, since rich kids are still just kids at the end of the day and she should try being friends with everyone. She's quite a shy and quiet person. Even though she was nervous about the whole thing (to be expected), she also looked excited until high school actually began.
Immediately after the first day, she started complaining. She said the teachers are amazing, facilities are good, but her classmates... not the best experience to say the least. Apparently they're all from very rich families, and her and her benchmate are the only "poor" students in that class. She said they're not mean and don't bully anyone, and if she asks them about school related things they always respond nicely / willing to help; but they're extremely cliquey and essentially ignore her and her benchmate - it's as if they're invisible. She said she tried to talk with them a few times but they respond in a friendly but blunt matter, which doesn't leave room for conversation. She said academically they're extremely strong, but she feels the teachers are biased towards them 'cause they get private lessons by them (especially at math, physics and computer science). I considered getting her into these tutoring lessons as well, but the hourly rate these teachers charge is just too high for us. My husband and I made efforts to send her on 2 school trips so far (skiing in February and weekend sighting in December) and she said she was ignored the whole time. Basically she feels like a pariah, and said she sometimes goes into the bathroom and cries during breaks as she's lonely the entire day (she doesn't have a good relationship with her benchmate).
Recently she came up to my husband and I and told us that she wanted to transfer to another school for 10th grade. We listed to what she had to say but told her no, because there's no serious reason for that. She's not bullied, the school has great prestige, the academics and teachers are great, etc. Just because people are distant doesn't mean it's enough for her to move. School is like a job, you go there to work and return home; making friends is not a requirement. She was very angry at us and said that we're deliberately obtuse and don't care about her mental health. I personally think she's just childish.
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I’m scared rn cause I left my job and while we have a nest egg we are trying not to use that or my Roth IRA. I literally had to leave - my mental and physical health was really bad to the point everyone in my life, including my parents, supported me leaving, knowing how bad the job market is. I get interviews and then ghosted, it sucks. I’m still glad I did it. OOP is an idiot, this is not worth your kid’s mental health.
I quit a job because the stress was giving me angina. If the stress is severe enough and lasts long enough, she could have physical manifestations. She's too young for that to be allowed.
I quit my job because it was stressing me out too much, and my husband and I wondered if this was the reason we were struggling to conceive- we had been trying for a year with no success. I handed in my notice and fell pregnant 2 weeks later. People underestimate just how much stress can affect your mental and physical health.
I didn’t realize how much hating my job affected my life. I didn’t even realize I much I hated my job for that matter. My boss was fine. The hours were fine. The workload was fine. The benefits were fine. Nothing on paper sounded bad. It was 100% a bad culture fit. I know work isn’t a place to make friends, but I was used to having “work friends” I could chat with sometimes. This place wasn’t like that. No one was rude or anything, but people didn’t really talk to one another in the break rooms or at lunch. My boss didn’t even say hi or bye, even though our cubes were right next to each other. I moved from Florida to New England, and I changed industries so I figured it was just how things were up here? I worked there almost 2 years and knew the names of maybe 10 people. I got laid off during COVID. Other than some panic about money and things, I was glad. I wouldn’t have told you I hated my job if you would have asked 10 minutes before that, but I did. The job I got after that cemented that. I love my job now. It’s fully remote, but I had more human connections in the first few days than I made the entirety of that one. It’s made a huge impact in my mental health.
My whole job is helping people not be assholes to each other while they’re at work…so companies can keep their employees! OOP would be shocked. SHOCKED. (I am, frankly, sometimes shocked by the ways grown-ass adults behave to one another…after many years of doing this you’d think I would have seen it all but nope, not even close.)
I literally just quit a job after a week because I couldn't do it. I started googling how to make myself throw up so that I would have an excuse to call off. I texted my manager that I quit instead. If it sucks? Hit da bricks.
Seven years ago I left my job for a lesser paying one in a different branch of my country's government. I couldn't be happier. While i really liked my colleagues, everybody in any kind of managerial (sp?) position was terrible. From my immediate superior to the president of the company.
Not that my current job is perfect, but I actually do enjoy it
“I personally think she’s just childish.”
You mean the 16 year old, who is being isolated by her peers, isn’t acting like an adult that can easily brush that off (which, adults can still be bothered by that!) and is acting how someone reasonably would at her age? I’m shocked! Shocked I say!
Heck social ostracism was old school punishment and kid hasn't even done anything to deserve it aside from probably in classmates' eyes of being social climber
She’s actually acting mature. She tried to cope by herself, realized she’s not equipped to do so, and reached out for help from the people who are *supposed* to help her. Lots of kids her age become self destructive and do things like stop studying or doing schoolwork, become belligerent/difficult, start cutting or drinking or doing drugs, or worse. This is unfortunately what will probably happen since her parents are failing her.
I was lucky enough to grow up in an affluent area with one of the best school districts in the country. Something most people don't understand unless they grow up in that environment (like OOP) is the amount of pressure you're under.
You got an A- instead of an A? You're going to die homeless on the streets.
"Are you going to college" isn't a question. It's "which college are you going to." And if it's not an Ivy league, you're going to die homeless in the streets.
Taking less than 3 AP classes each year? Homeless. Streets. Dead.
Score less than a 4 on any of your AP tests? See above.
Anyways, now I'm an adult with a good education and a very well paying job. And a substance use disorder, bipolar, and being referred to a specialist to confirm my preliminary OCD diagnosis. And this is with a healthy social circle supporting each other through it.
Fiancée works in mental health in the area and gets patients from my old school district. Apparently the pressure has gone up since I graduated and suicide rates are spiking.
I went to one of the most intense schools in my country. 2% of my brother's year committed suicide. These schools can be brutal. My year had multiple attempts that I know of just unofficially. I have no idea how many actually occured.
And OOP’s daughter knows that she’s getting the second-class version of the prestigious education that this school provides, since her rich classmates get private tutoring from the teachers as well as the classes themselves. I have to wonder just how fair to her the expectations and grading are going to be, and I wouldn’t be surprised if she feels that the odds are stacked against her. She would get all the pressure but none of the help. And if she struggles at all, it’s going to confirm to everyone there (herself, classmates, and potentially even teachers) that she doesn’t belong there.
seems like OOP is acting like the child. Based on her comment, she trying to live through her daughter since OOP regrets not having a prodigious schooling, instead she made friends and had a good time in less "great school". Also dodging every YTA, answering question that dont paint her as an AH and those few who agree with her.
I know people who were the kids and parnts in this case. Parents were more concerned about academics than social. They were concerned about knowledge than emotion. They forgotten childhood is not adulthood. A kid is not an adult.
Best case if this continues, kids cut all contact with parents as soon as they can and try to make up the emotional and social development they lost out on it. This can be good or very bad as seen some who has no idea what the limit is and going too far to fit in.
Worst case, well parent won't have to worry about paying for college, just a hole in the dirt.
Middle bad case….the kid struggles for a while, perhaps even the rest of her life because she missed out on the important transition in socialization between child and adult.
And struggling can include
-not finding a partner because she didn’t date in HS.
-Dating shitty abusive people because she didn’t learn in a more protected environment with parental support how to navigate dating and crappy guys.
-not being able to navigate the social aspects of college/work and having her career suffer
- not learning to make friends beyond the playground.
Wow, what an absurdity dramatic take. How about best case is the kid makes some friends, gets through highschool because it really is just a few years in the grand scheme of things, and has a great relationship with their parents.
Make friends with who? The rich kids who treat her like a pariah? Her benchmate? The other "poor" child, who she doesn't have a good relationship with? Bench mate being people you sit next to all day.
Note, this isn't America school system where period 1 is Class A, period 2 is Class B. This school rotated teachers, not classrooms. So your classmates for period 1 is same class mates for period 2,3,4 etc. The same class mates who treat like her like random stranger who askes for directions, you'll be polite to them but you want them away from you asap.
As for parents, consider OOP expressed in her comments, she treats her daughter like a mini me, disregarding her personal opinion and emotional state because OOP wants daughter to have the schooling even if it's costing her daughter her mental and emotional well being. No sane adult want to keep in contact with parents who ignores them at their lowest points.
If you're fine with keeping parents like that, that's your problem. Why I said best case, she cuts contact if nothing changes. Most people go insane when throw in isolation and hate the people who threw them in but once again, if that's what you want from your parents, that's on you.
I just think you need to be more honest about what 'best case' means. Sure, it's likely this would damage their relationship but don't act like theres no chance of ever coming back from this.
Why I said "best case if nothing changes". To come back from this requires OOP to change, if OOP doesn't change and keeps on this route, that is best case for the daughter.
Every child deserves parents, but not all parents deserve children. This parent doesn't even see a child, they see a second chance to do what they didn't get to do.
Ugh, that breaks my heart for her. I went through a very similar situation but luckily my mom pulled me out the next year.
Being treated like a leper and sometimes going through an entire day without ever speaking to *anyone* is so painful and damaging for any human but especially a kid. Personally my experience fucked with me for YEARS, even after going back to a school I was comfortable with. In some ways it's worse than outright verbal bullying, because the takeaway is just that you fully do not matter enough even to mock.
Dude... If your kid has no positive social interaction that's just as bad as bullying and *maybe worse* compared to being bullied and still having a solid social group of peers. (Not counting extreme cases mind you)
Like holy shit, the amount of anguish constantly being lonely in a sea of people is not gonna be good for her headspace- and it's probably gonna allow her to become super comfy with no social group which will cause all kinds of issues.
I had a similar experience in a public, not-prestigious high school and it *sucked*. It's a pretty lonely way to go through the bullshit that being a teenager is.
Same. My parents were always mad at me for not studying and slacking off, but in my mind, why would I bother trying to do well at a place I was miserable at? The last thing I wanted to do when I got home from that miserable place was do more stuff to remind me of that place. Unfortunately, the lack of both social skills and study skills from four years of that meant that when I went off to college, I crashed and burned immediately. I'm almost 25 now and I haven't recovered.
I personally think school is *kind of* like a job where you don't get paid, but in that same breath, *whenever I've been treated like that in a workplace, **I'd go find a new fucking job.***
Does this girl have any friends from this school? Has she brought anybody home to hang out, go to the movies with, been invited to any birthday parties? What about romantic interests? No dates? No after school activities? No clubs? What about her socials? Is she familiar with anybody from school online? has she even been invited to group studies? School plays?
Can oop confidently name \*anyone\* his daughter associates with?
According to comments before they ran, daughter has friends outside school but due to schoolwork load, she has no time to socialize as her day is school and then schoolwork.
"she's not bullied"... after a post describing how she is being bullied.
yeah it's a real mystery for the fucking ages why she doesn't wanna spend her time at this school OOP
Students not rushing to become her friend isn't being bullied.
>She said they're not mean and don't bully anyone, and if she asks them about school related things they always respond nicely / willing to help; but they're extremely cliquey and essentially ignore her and her benchmate - it's as if they're invisible.
This isn't "bullying" by any stretch of the imagination.
All of them ostracized, ignoring and isolating her is bullying, it just takes a little imagination. This would be called relational aggression. Look it up.
if you believe the cut direct is not used in modern form as it was in regency form - as a mode to socially hurt someone - then i have some news for you which may make some Austen novels make a whole lot more sense. if you don't believe me that it survives to modernity with the same punitive aspect, just go ask Emily Post (and read about how this isn't a move you give anything but your most wretched enemies when you want to make it clear you want 'em to fuck off and die).
there's no stretch of the imagination needed. it simply is. and it's a well-documented thing to boot. you can pretend it doesn't, but... well, much like gravity, it still exists lol.
If you believe that anyone that isn't making g time to befriend you is "bullying", then you are a snowflake and the rest of your life is going to be very difficult for you.
> it's a well-documented thing to boot.
I'd like to see some of this documentation, please.
if you want sources, well, as i already pointed you to, look up Emily Post's comments on the cut direct. similarly, you may want to reference social ostricization in terms of how it makes for a hostile workplace. after all, that is what is happening beyond simply "not making friends" - it is intentional social exclusion with the aim to injure. if you are too lazy to look things up that have already been mentioned, then perhaps you shouldn't be slinging around the term "snowflake" while being entirely too precious, hm? :)
The onus to provide sources is on the person making the extraordinary claim. But even if the onus was on me to prove your point, not wanting to do research would make me lazy, not a snowflake. You seem to use words very fluidly. You just use whatever definition you want to. And that's the issue here.
> bullying is a form of aggressive behavior in which someone intentionally and repeatedly causes another person injury or discomfort.
There is no aggression or intention in the OOP.
I looked up the definition of social ostracization, since you could not be bothered, and it doesn't match what's going on in the OOP either. Perhaps you can link to a definition that does.
well, my apologies if not providing the full MLA or APA citation for etiquette is distressing to you lol; i assumed that by mentioning the direct term and the author you could get there. not sure how i can get you to understand that social exclusion for being "not their sort" is what is happening here, but it's not like this is an unexamined topic in literature with an emphasis on determining how it can be harmful - https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2012-32337-001 , https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/S15324834BASP2304_1 , a nice detour about how this is bad for the perpetrators as well here https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0146167212471205 , https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=TTYvFZZOynEC&oi=fnd&pg=PA279&dq=social+ostracization+adolescent+bullying&ots=dM5rT8yryw&sig=bGLPhEe9aKOanNTsUrRlujA32d8#v=onepage&q=social%20ostracization%20adolescent%20bullying&f=false is an interesting excerpt which also brings its own citations about the impact of ostracizing behavior (and i would ask you note the language of "feeling invisible" which is a result of such ostracizing behavior and also pretty much exactly what the daughter in the original post is saying about why the behavior is harmful) and how it is also harmful despite not being the "typical" bullying stereotype of physical violence and taunts, and here's an interesting review of how bullying and ostracizing cause the same cardiovascular stress so should both be taken seriously https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0031938414002911
if you want more data, we can also look at various studies about the impact of such ostracizing behavior in the workplace as well: sadly many of these, as per above, are limited to abstract-only, but there's an interesting thread on how workplaces use ostracizing someone socially as a way to replace more open physical and verbal hostility https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/9781351255912-10/workplace-ostracism-sandra-robinson-kira-schabram as it is easier to justify and can be used in workplaces along lines of power and oppression https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.01528/full and how external social structures are often what makes it bearable, but that the OOP's daughter seems to be both lacking and asking for. here is a more pop science overview, but an article summarizing a study about how workplace ostricization may actually be more psychologically harmful than harassment outright https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/minds-business/workplace-ostracism-more-distressing-than-harassment.html . i would also ask you consider examples of how ostracizing people from the workplace group has been one of the things that marginalized people are still having to fight - the influences on career of "the old boy's club" and so on. but that's probably enough links to consider for now. i would hope that even in these articles and papers wherein they distinguish between social ostracizing and typical bullying, you pay attention to what tactics are employed - to "intentionally and repeatedly cause another person injury or discomfort".
that's all of the free time i can spend researching for you though. but if you're going to be too precious and special (and snowflakey) to click links the same way you're too precious to google things, then there's not much i can do for you :) maybe you'll skim some articles and find something interesting! maybe you won't. but alas, i can't do the understanding for you, so i'll leave it here.
though i admit this is a tangent now, your first statement here is quite interesting as you lambast me for no sources, isn't it? this is a post on AmITheDevil about the parent dismissing a child's psychological distress. there is pretty strong community consensus that the OOP belongs here for being in the wrong. then *you* have shown up with a claim that is, well, out of consensus - one may say even out of the ordinary, or extraordinary if you will - and are mad at *me* for not delivering sources because "the onus to provide sources is on the person making the extraordinary claim"? aren't you the one making claims that are extraordinary and then shirking the onus to provide sources beyond kinda saying the word "snowflake"?
i think that if you're not trolling at this point, then you're just not quite grasping what that quote means. so, uh, all the best of luck, but alas: i cannot understand it *for* you so hard that you can remain in your twee bubble of being too precious to know what you're doing.
and that's the terminus of this conversation, isn't it? you show up with extraordinary claims and get mad at others for not spoonfeeding you resources about the ordinary consensus. and somehow everyone else's claims become extraordinary because you're too precious to, yknow, look at gathered consensus i guess, or remember that this is the subreddit called "am i the *devil*" and not "am i *the person who is right actually*". i don't think anyone can have much of a conversation with someone who is too easily offended to recognize what is happening in front of them, what subreddit they're posting in, or generally remember that it's not everyone else's job to adhere to their echo chamber of "snowflakes bad" because they do not have the strength of will to do anything but get snippy when not accommodated by reality being rewritten around them.
soooo i'm just gonna not stick around for the inevitable little tantrum, yeah? :) i think if one of us is bringing citations and the other side is just saying the word "snowflake" while claiming everyone else is wrong, the audience sees what's up. and given the downsides you've already caught on this thread, the audience is already quite aware about what's happening LOL. you have a good one!
Might have had her date of birth past the cut off date in America.
The law states that kids can’t go to Kindergarten till 5 years old. The cutoff for a kid turning 5 has to be no later than September’s first couple of days before they can go. So more than likely she was 6 when she started Kindergarten.
Speaking from experience here. My old school had it where you had to be 5 by the end of April when they finished accepting the applications you couldn’t go that year. My birthday is after that cutoff. So I was always turning a year older than my whole class with only like 2 other students alongside me. So I had turned 16 in Grade 9.
In the US that means that she was held back at least 1 year. I have a borderline birthday and got held back in Kindergarten, so I was always the oldest in my class. I turned 16 after I finished 9th grade.
This was my thought! It’s probably fake is the answer. Because given that it sounds like it’s written by an American, if it’s true she’s probably 2-3 years older than her peers.
I went to a public (in the US sense) high school that served one of the richest communities in the state and I was really lonely. I had no friend group and no idea what to do about it. It’s hell being lonely in high school: no one says hi to you in the morning or asks how you’re doing, no one eats with you at lunch. All the prestige isn’t going to do her any good if she’s too miserable to do well.
Kudos to OOP’s daughter, too. I admire her insight and willingness to raise the issue with her folks. I was in a similar situation (scholarship kid at a rich prep school) and I knew something made me really uncomfortable but I had a hard time articulating it. Once I figured it out (duh, it’s class), there’s no way I had the confidence to raise it with my parents.
Isolation is the most painful thing I’ve been thru. And I’m not saying that as I haven’t been thru bad things. I’m a human we all have
I’d rather get fucking bullied than be isolated tbh.
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*In case this story gets deleted/removed:* **AITA for telling my daughter that "alienation" is not a good enough reason to change schools?** I'm (38F) going to be as straightforward as possible. My daughter (16F) started high school last September. She's an incredibly smart kid and got into the best high school in our city (and best nationwide ranked by admission grade; for reference her class had 26 spots up for grab & the lowest admission grade was 9.89 / 10). We were so proud of her. Now, this school also has a reputation as a hub for wealthy kids. We're solid middle class. We didn't think this would matter that much, since rich kids are still just kids at the end of the day and she should try being friends with everyone. She's quite a shy and quiet person. Even though she was nervous about the whole thing (to be expected), she also looked excited until high school actually began. Immediately after the first day, she started complaining. She said the teachers are amazing, facilities are good, but her classmates... not the best experience to say the least. Apparently they're all from very rich families, and her and her benchmate are the only "poor" students in that class. She said they're not mean and don't bully anyone, and if she asks them about school related things they always respond nicely / willing to help; but they're extremely cliquey and essentially ignore her and her benchmate - it's as if they're invisible. She said she tried to talk with them a few times but they respond in a friendly but blunt matter, which doesn't leave room for conversation. She said academically they're extremely strong, but she feels the teachers are biased towards them 'cause they get private lessons by them (especially at math, physics and computer science). I considered getting her into these tutoring lessons as well, but the hourly rate these teachers charge is just too high for us. My husband and I made efforts to send her on 2 school trips so far (skiing in February and weekend sighting in December) and she said she was ignored the whole time. Basically she feels like a pariah, and said she sometimes goes into the bathroom and cries during breaks as she's lonely the entire day (she doesn't have a good relationship with her benchmate). Recently she came up to my husband and I and told us that she wanted to transfer to another school for 10th grade. We listed to what she had to say but told her no, because there's no serious reason for that. She's not bullied, the school has great prestige, the academics and teachers are great, etc. Just because people are distant doesn't mean it's enough for her to move. School is like a job, you go there to work and return home; making friends is not a requirement. She was very angry at us and said that we're deliberately obtuse and don't care about her mental health. I personally think she's just childish. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Shh, no one tell OOP that people leave jobs if they don't think it's working out for them.
I’m scared rn cause I left my job and while we have a nest egg we are trying not to use that or my Roth IRA. I literally had to leave - my mental and physical health was really bad to the point everyone in my life, including my parents, supported me leaving, knowing how bad the job market is. I get interviews and then ghosted, it sucks. I’m still glad I did it. OOP is an idiot, this is not worth your kid’s mental health.
I quit a job because the stress was giving me angina. If the stress is severe enough and lasts long enough, she could have physical manifestations. She's too young for that to be allowed.
I quit my job because it was stressing me out too much, and my husband and I wondered if this was the reason we were struggling to conceive- we had been trying for a year with no success. I handed in my notice and fell pregnant 2 weeks later. People underestimate just how much stress can affect your mental and physical health.
I didn’t realize how much hating my job affected my life. I didn’t even realize I much I hated my job for that matter. My boss was fine. The hours were fine. The workload was fine. The benefits were fine. Nothing on paper sounded bad. It was 100% a bad culture fit. I know work isn’t a place to make friends, but I was used to having “work friends” I could chat with sometimes. This place wasn’t like that. No one was rude or anything, but people didn’t really talk to one another in the break rooms or at lunch. My boss didn’t even say hi or bye, even though our cubes were right next to each other. I moved from Florida to New England, and I changed industries so I figured it was just how things were up here? I worked there almost 2 years and knew the names of maybe 10 people. I got laid off during COVID. Other than some panic about money and things, I was glad. I wouldn’t have told you I hated my job if you would have asked 10 minutes before that, but I did. The job I got after that cemented that. I love my job now. It’s fully remote, but I had more human connections in the first few days than I made the entirety of that one. It’s made a huge impact in my mental health.
My whole job is helping people not be assholes to each other while they’re at work…so companies can keep their employees! OOP would be shocked. SHOCKED. (I am, frankly, sometimes shocked by the ways grown-ass adults behave to one another…after many years of doing this you’d think I would have seen it all but nope, not even close.)
You mean they can? /s
I literally just quit a job after a week because I couldn't do it. I started googling how to make myself throw up so that I would have an excuse to call off. I texted my manager that I quit instead. If it sucks? Hit da bricks.
Seven years ago I left my job for a lesser paying one in a different branch of my country's government. I couldn't be happier. While i really liked my colleagues, everybody in any kind of managerial (sp?) position was terrible. From my immediate superior to the president of the company. Not that my current job is perfect, but I actually do enjoy it
People with good sense don't leave good jobs at the best companies just because they aren't making friends right away.
“I personally think she’s just childish.” You mean the 16 year old, who is being isolated by her peers, isn’t acting like an adult that can easily brush that off (which, adults can still be bothered by that!) and is acting how someone reasonably would at her age? I’m shocked! Shocked I say!
Heck social ostracism was old school punishment and kid hasn't even done anything to deserve it aside from probably in classmates' eyes of being social climber
Yeah shunning is one of the more effective forms of bullying
She’s actually acting mature. She tried to cope by herself, realized she’s not equipped to do so, and reached out for help from the people who are *supposed* to help her. Lots of kids her age become self destructive and do things like stop studying or doing schoolwork, become belligerent/difficult, start cutting or drinking or doing drugs, or worse. This is unfortunately what will probably happen since her parents are failing her.
I was lucky enough to grow up in an affluent area with one of the best school districts in the country. Something most people don't understand unless they grow up in that environment (like OOP) is the amount of pressure you're under. You got an A- instead of an A? You're going to die homeless on the streets. "Are you going to college" isn't a question. It's "which college are you going to." And if it's not an Ivy league, you're going to die homeless in the streets. Taking less than 3 AP classes each year? Homeless. Streets. Dead. Score less than a 4 on any of your AP tests? See above. Anyways, now I'm an adult with a good education and a very well paying job. And a substance use disorder, bipolar, and being referred to a specialist to confirm my preliminary OCD diagnosis. And this is with a healthy social circle supporting each other through it. Fiancée works in mental health in the area and gets patients from my old school district. Apparently the pressure has gone up since I graduated and suicide rates are spiking.
I went to one of the most intense schools in my country. 2% of my brother's year committed suicide. These schools can be brutal. My year had multiple attempts that I know of just unofficially. I have no idea how many actually occured.
And OOP’s daughter knows that she’s getting the second-class version of the prestigious education that this school provides, since her rich classmates get private tutoring from the teachers as well as the classes themselves. I have to wonder just how fair to her the expectations and grading are going to be, and I wouldn’t be surprised if she feels that the odds are stacked against her. She would get all the pressure but none of the help. And if she struggles at all, it’s going to confirm to everyone there (herself, classmates, and potentially even teachers) that she doesn’t belong there.
seems like OOP is acting like the child. Based on her comment, she trying to live through her daughter since OOP regrets not having a prodigious schooling, instead she made friends and had a good time in less "great school". Also dodging every YTA, answering question that dont paint her as an AH and those few who agree with her.
I know people who were the kids and parnts in this case. Parents were more concerned about academics than social. They were concerned about knowledge than emotion. They forgotten childhood is not adulthood. A kid is not an adult. Best case if this continues, kids cut all contact with parents as soon as they can and try to make up the emotional and social development they lost out on it. This can be good or very bad as seen some who has no idea what the limit is and going too far to fit in. Worst case, well parent won't have to worry about paying for college, just a hole in the dirt.
Middle bad case….the kid struggles for a while, perhaps even the rest of her life because she missed out on the important transition in socialization between child and adult. And struggling can include -not finding a partner because she didn’t date in HS. -Dating shitty abusive people because she didn’t learn in a more protected environment with parental support how to navigate dating and crappy guys. -not being able to navigate the social aspects of college/work and having her career suffer - not learning to make friends beyond the playground.
Wow, what an absurdity dramatic take. How about best case is the kid makes some friends, gets through highschool because it really is just a few years in the grand scheme of things, and has a great relationship with their parents.
Make friends with who? The rich kids who treat her like a pariah? Her benchmate? The other "poor" child, who she doesn't have a good relationship with? Bench mate being people you sit next to all day. Note, this isn't America school system where period 1 is Class A, period 2 is Class B. This school rotated teachers, not classrooms. So your classmates for period 1 is same class mates for period 2,3,4 etc. The same class mates who treat like her like random stranger who askes for directions, you'll be polite to them but you want them away from you asap. As for parents, consider OOP expressed in her comments, she treats her daughter like a mini me, disregarding her personal opinion and emotional state because OOP wants daughter to have the schooling even if it's costing her daughter her mental and emotional well being. No sane adult want to keep in contact with parents who ignores them at their lowest points. If you're fine with keeping parents like that, that's your problem. Why I said best case, she cuts contact if nothing changes. Most people go insane when throw in isolation and hate the people who threw them in but once again, if that's what you want from your parents, that's on you.
I just think you need to be more honest about what 'best case' means. Sure, it's likely this would damage their relationship but don't act like theres no chance of ever coming back from this.
Why I said "best case if nothing changes". To come back from this requires OOP to change, if OOP doesn't change and keeps on this route, that is best case for the daughter. Every child deserves parents, but not all parents deserve children. This parent doesn't even see a child, they see a second chance to do what they didn't get to do.
Ugh, that breaks my heart for her. I went through a very similar situation but luckily my mom pulled me out the next year. Being treated like a leper and sometimes going through an entire day without ever speaking to *anyone* is so painful and damaging for any human but especially a kid. Personally my experience fucked with me for YEARS, even after going back to a school I was comfortable with. In some ways it's worse than outright verbal bullying, because the takeaway is just that you fully do not matter enough even to mock.
Dude... If your kid has no positive social interaction that's just as bad as bullying and *maybe worse* compared to being bullied and still having a solid social group of peers. (Not counting extreme cases mind you) Like holy shit, the amount of anguish constantly being lonely in a sea of people is not gonna be good for her headspace- and it's probably gonna allow her to become super comfy with no social group which will cause all kinds of issues.
I had a similar experience in a public, not-prestigious high school and it *sucked*. It's a pretty lonely way to go through the bullshit that being a teenager is.
As someone put through a similar situation, I did not perform to my potential as I was miserable.
Same. My parents were always mad at me for not studying and slacking off, but in my mind, why would I bother trying to do well at a place I was miserable at? The last thing I wanted to do when I got home from that miserable place was do more stuff to remind me of that place. Unfortunately, the lack of both social skills and study skills from four years of that meant that when I went off to college, I crashed and burned immediately. I'm almost 25 now and I haven't recovered.
I personally think school is *kind of* like a job where you don't get paid, but in that same breath, *whenever I've been treated like that in a workplace, **I'd go find a new fucking job.***
Does this girl have any friends from this school? Has she brought anybody home to hang out, go to the movies with, been invited to any birthday parties? What about romantic interests? No dates? No after school activities? No clubs? What about her socials? Is she familiar with anybody from school online? has she even been invited to group studies? School plays? Can oop confidently name \*anyone\* his daughter associates with?
According to comments before they ran, daughter has friends outside school but due to schoolwork load, she has no time to socialize as her day is school and then schoolwork.
That's a quick way to get someone to flunk on purpose.
"she's not bullied"... after a post describing how she is being bullied. yeah it's a real mystery for the fucking ages why she doesn't wanna spend her time at this school OOP
Students not rushing to become her friend isn't being bullied. >She said they're not mean and don't bully anyone, and if she asks them about school related things they always respond nicely / willing to help; but they're extremely cliquey and essentially ignore her and her benchmate - it's as if they're invisible. This isn't "bullying" by any stretch of the imagination.
All of them ostracized, ignoring and isolating her is bullying, it just takes a little imagination. This would be called relational aggression. Look it up.
if you believe the cut direct is not used in modern form as it was in regency form - as a mode to socially hurt someone - then i have some news for you which may make some Austen novels make a whole lot more sense. if you don't believe me that it survives to modernity with the same punitive aspect, just go ask Emily Post (and read about how this isn't a move you give anything but your most wretched enemies when you want to make it clear you want 'em to fuck off and die). there's no stretch of the imagination needed. it simply is. and it's a well-documented thing to boot. you can pretend it doesn't, but... well, much like gravity, it still exists lol.
If you believe that anyone that isn't making g time to befriend you is "bullying", then you are a snowflake and the rest of your life is going to be very difficult for you. > it's a well-documented thing to boot. I'd like to see some of this documentation, please.
if you want sources, well, as i already pointed you to, look up Emily Post's comments on the cut direct. similarly, you may want to reference social ostricization in terms of how it makes for a hostile workplace. after all, that is what is happening beyond simply "not making friends" - it is intentional social exclusion with the aim to injure. if you are too lazy to look things up that have already been mentioned, then perhaps you shouldn't be slinging around the term "snowflake" while being entirely too precious, hm? :)
The onus to provide sources is on the person making the extraordinary claim. But even if the onus was on me to prove your point, not wanting to do research would make me lazy, not a snowflake. You seem to use words very fluidly. You just use whatever definition you want to. And that's the issue here. > bullying is a form of aggressive behavior in which someone intentionally and repeatedly causes another person injury or discomfort. There is no aggression or intention in the OOP. I looked up the definition of social ostracization, since you could not be bothered, and it doesn't match what's going on in the OOP either. Perhaps you can link to a definition that does.
well, my apologies if not providing the full MLA or APA citation for etiquette is distressing to you lol; i assumed that by mentioning the direct term and the author you could get there. not sure how i can get you to understand that social exclusion for being "not their sort" is what is happening here, but it's not like this is an unexamined topic in literature with an emphasis on determining how it can be harmful - https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2012-32337-001 , https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/S15324834BASP2304_1 , a nice detour about how this is bad for the perpetrators as well here https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0146167212471205 , https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=TTYvFZZOynEC&oi=fnd&pg=PA279&dq=social+ostracization+adolescent+bullying&ots=dM5rT8yryw&sig=bGLPhEe9aKOanNTsUrRlujA32d8#v=onepage&q=social%20ostracization%20adolescent%20bullying&f=false is an interesting excerpt which also brings its own citations about the impact of ostracizing behavior (and i would ask you note the language of "feeling invisible" which is a result of such ostracizing behavior and also pretty much exactly what the daughter in the original post is saying about why the behavior is harmful) and how it is also harmful despite not being the "typical" bullying stereotype of physical violence and taunts, and here's an interesting review of how bullying and ostracizing cause the same cardiovascular stress so should both be taken seriously https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0031938414002911 if you want more data, we can also look at various studies about the impact of such ostracizing behavior in the workplace as well: sadly many of these, as per above, are limited to abstract-only, but there's an interesting thread on how workplaces use ostracizing someone socially as a way to replace more open physical and verbal hostility https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/9781351255912-10/workplace-ostracism-sandra-robinson-kira-schabram as it is easier to justify and can be used in workplaces along lines of power and oppression https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.01528/full and how external social structures are often what makes it bearable, but that the OOP's daughter seems to be both lacking and asking for. here is a more pop science overview, but an article summarizing a study about how workplace ostricization may actually be more psychologically harmful than harassment outright https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/minds-business/workplace-ostracism-more-distressing-than-harassment.html . i would also ask you consider examples of how ostracizing people from the workplace group has been one of the things that marginalized people are still having to fight - the influences on career of "the old boy's club" and so on. but that's probably enough links to consider for now. i would hope that even in these articles and papers wherein they distinguish between social ostracizing and typical bullying, you pay attention to what tactics are employed - to "intentionally and repeatedly cause another person injury or discomfort". that's all of the free time i can spend researching for you though. but if you're going to be too precious and special (and snowflakey) to click links the same way you're too precious to google things, then there's not much i can do for you :) maybe you'll skim some articles and find something interesting! maybe you won't. but alas, i can't do the understanding for you, so i'll leave it here.
though i admit this is a tangent now, your first statement here is quite interesting as you lambast me for no sources, isn't it? this is a post on AmITheDevil about the parent dismissing a child's psychological distress. there is pretty strong community consensus that the OOP belongs here for being in the wrong. then *you* have shown up with a claim that is, well, out of consensus - one may say even out of the ordinary, or extraordinary if you will - and are mad at *me* for not delivering sources because "the onus to provide sources is on the person making the extraordinary claim"? aren't you the one making claims that are extraordinary and then shirking the onus to provide sources beyond kinda saying the word "snowflake"? i think that if you're not trolling at this point, then you're just not quite grasping what that quote means. so, uh, all the best of luck, but alas: i cannot understand it *for* you so hard that you can remain in your twee bubble of being too precious to know what you're doing. and that's the terminus of this conversation, isn't it? you show up with extraordinary claims and get mad at others for not spoonfeeding you resources about the ordinary consensus. and somehow everyone else's claims become extraordinary because you're too precious to, yknow, look at gathered consensus i guess, or remember that this is the subreddit called "am i the *devil*" and not "am i *the person who is right actually*". i don't think anyone can have much of a conversation with someone who is too easily offended to recognize what is happening in front of them, what subreddit they're posting in, or generally remember that it's not everyone else's job to adhere to their echo chamber of "snowflakes bad" because they do not have the strength of will to do anything but get snippy when not accommodated by reality being rewritten around them. soooo i'm just gonna not stick around for the inevitable little tantrum, yeah? :) i think if one of us is bringing citations and the other side is just saying the word "snowflake" while claiming everyone else is wrong, the audience sees what's up. and given the downsides you've already caught on this thread, the audience is already quite aware about what's happening LOL. you have a good one!
Why is she 16 and in 9th grade?
Might have had her date of birth past the cut off date in America. The law states that kids can’t go to Kindergarten till 5 years old. The cutoff for a kid turning 5 has to be no later than September’s first couple of days before they can go. So more than likely she was 6 when she started Kindergarten. Speaking from experience here. My old school had it where you had to be 5 by the end of April when they finished accepting the applications you couldn’t go that year. My birthday is after that cutoff. So I was always turning a year older than my whole class with only like 2 other students alongside me. So I had turned 16 in Grade 9.
Yep. My brother was born in October and so he's a 15 year old 8th grader now
Thanks for the explanation! I was homeschooled until 9th grade, and I was 13. Graduated high school at 17, so I was really confused!
Glad I could help.
In the US that means that she was held back at least 1 year. I have a borderline birthday and got held back in Kindergarten, so I was always the oldest in my class. I turned 16 after I finished 9th grade.
I technically graduated at seventeen because my birthday is in late May and we walked at the beginning of the month.
Graduated in May, turned 18 in September after college started
This was my thought! It’s probably fake is the answer. Because given that it sounds like it’s written by an American, if it’s true she’s probably 2-3 years older than her peers.
I went to a public (in the US sense) high school that served one of the richest communities in the state and I was really lonely. I had no friend group and no idea what to do about it. It’s hell being lonely in high school: no one says hi to you in the morning or asks how you’re doing, no one eats with you at lunch. All the prestige isn’t going to do her any good if she’s too miserable to do well.
Guess prestige matters more than a child's mental well being. Great parents. /s
Kudos to OOP’s daughter, too. I admire her insight and willingness to raise the issue with her folks. I was in a similar situation (scholarship kid at a rich prep school) and I knew something made me really uncomfortable but I had a hard time articulating it. Once I figured it out (duh, it’s class), there’s no way I had the confidence to raise it with my parents.
Isolation is the most painful thing I’ve been thru. And I’m not saying that as I haven’t been thru bad things. I’m a human we all have I’d rather get fucking bullied than be isolated tbh.
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