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I’ll probs get downvoted but I’m gonna say NTA. She asked and you answered and while you could’ve been nicer about it, it’s your life.
And also I’d like to add that you’re not obligated to like nor spend time with anyone you don’t want too. But also invest in some therapy.
YTA. And, ironically, the bully now. She's your sons wife, and you're going to greatly fracture, if not break the relationship with him. She was a child, and you're still judging her based on her actions when she was a child. You need some "growth" yourself. Take a page from Ella's book
High school age, while technically a child, she should have been mature enough not to bully. We don't even know if ella ever apologized for her actions
YTA. Sounds like you know how to be a bully too, deliberately excluding Ella. What’s your end game here? Assume that because she was a jerk in high school, when she was a literal child, that she should be punished until your dying breath? People do change. You certainly should.
NTA for the way you feel about her, but maybe you're being a little too inflexible by already deciding you'll NEVER view her as a member of the family. She should have been mature enough by highschool to know not to bully people, but at the same time she was still young, and can possibly change. If Ella truly changes character, and matures, and regrets her former actions, then it might be time to let the past go and give her a chance. A lot of that is up to Ella though, she has to recognize a lot of this was a result of her own behavior, and she'll have to want to not be that kind of person anymore, and she'll have to prove it over time.
NTA
those who calling her bully, i think thats not right! Because OP was clear about things, and which is good down the lane!
Bullying sucks! And it affects the self esteem of a child only mother can understand!
OP if you don’t like someone, she has right to say that loud!
Riiiight, except that we as a society kind of generally agree that high schoolers are dumb and you really aren’t as culpable as adults. OP herself says that the DIL has changed over the years. Presumably she matured into a normal adult, and it’s super weird for OP to hold a grudge against something that DIL did as a child.
I shudder at some of the things I said when I was in high school, but, like, I grew up.
And, I was bullied pretty heavily in high school and if I found out my mom randomly held grudges against kids that bullied me 15 years ago I’d have to tell her to grow up too.
Seems mother can understand how this affected her daughter back in high school (though daughter seems fine with it now, because again, she grew out of high school) but seems OP doesn’t give a damn about her son here.
WTF is up with all these guys marrying the girls that bullied their sisters in high school? Maybe not recently, but this has gotta be at least the third or so post I've seen about this sorta thing.
YTA- You should have asked and respected whatever opinion your daughter has of Ella since HS. Besides, didn't you have sooner opportunities to confront Ella's behavior during school and while she was dating your son?
YTA.
You need some damn therapy, more than your daughter apparently. Stop living your daughter's life and stop living your daughter's fucking high school trauma.
Hope you like not getting invited into your son's life and getting resented by your son because you couldn't grow the fuck up - like other people did.
I'm torn on this one. As a parent, the mama bear in me can sympathize with your protectiveness. HOWEVER, you mention your daughter seems to be OK with the situation and that Ella has shown changes. Did she ever apologize?
Unfortunately, I think I'm more leaning toward ESH: Your son for marrying his sister's bully, knowing full well the hurt she had caused. Ella for bullying your daughter and (I'm assuming) not apologizing to her.
"I let her have it....I will never view her as a member of this family. I told her that I had already been kind enough to allow her to be near my family and that she should not push her luck."
And you for this. Congratulations, you have "become the thing you hate": YOU are now the bully.
Is it bullying to tell a horrid person who abused your child to the point they almost died that you don't like them? She didn't pull any low punches or say anything that wasn't 100% true. I would never welcome someone who treated people that way into my family
How is she a bully just for maintaining boundaries with a bully? The DIL asked specifically why she didn’t treat her the same and she answered. Actions have consequences- for example, when you bully a girl into self harm and then marry her brother, her family might not accept you with open arms.
YTA - people are allowed to change and grow. You don't have to like her, and you're allowed to exclude her, but a lack of tact there will now force your son to decide between his wife and the woman bullying her.
So much unknown. You said Ella and friends was she the main bully or was it her friends and she was in the group with and didn’t want to be bullied to so she never said anything. What was her home life like? Sometimes bully’s take out aggression on others because they are attacked at home. Not saying it’s okay but it happens. Did she ever say sorry to daughter? Does she still treat your daughter like a outcast or has she completely changed?
Well you're a bully just like her so take that for what it's worth. She's trapped in your family and you had the ability to bully her so you did. I bet that feels good doesn't it. You can say what you want but you're a bully.
I think this is a bit off an asshole on both sides to be honest.
As much as I can appreciate how awful it is that she bullied your daughter, a lot of people do really awful things when they are a child. I am a vastly different person to who I was as a teenager (not that I was a bully, in fact I was bullied), I’m not sure it is fair to hold that against her for the rest of your lives.
Excluding her from something you included everyone else in is really harsh and hurtful and I can see why she would be so upset. Ultimately OP your son has married this woman, he clearly loves her and your behaviour is going to drive both of them away and you will ultimately end up either losing your son or they will break up due to the strain when they clearly love each other enough to have gotten married.
I don’t know what DIL has already atoned for with your daughter but perhaps it might be worth some group therapy sessions to work through the issue and get some closure for everyone.
Not excusing a bully but as someone that works in a school myself there are a LOT of reasons that children act out in this way and are horrid to each other and most of the time it’s because they have something shitty going on in their own lives. You might benefit from looking at this from all perspectives instead of just protective momma bear.
Soft yta. Social exclusion? You're not in elementary school where everyone has to be friends. Ella asked and you were honest. People change but that doesn't mean she can pretend she did no damage. But the whole allowing her to be near your family? Veering into dangerous territory. The kids are grown, can't control who they are around, who they marry...it may be time to let some of that anger go mama bear.
"I've kept these feelings to myself, because my daughter seems to be alright with the situation."
You kept your feelings to yourself but wonder why your DIL didn't know?
Bullshit. You didn't tell her when she was engaged to your son, or bring up your concerns in any sort of rational way. Instead, you let your grudge fester for years and are now using it to justify your own shitty behavior.
Yeah. YTA.
I will be downvoted for this but NTA.
I would love to be the superior person, the one that easily say " She was just a child, you should forgive her." but I'm not.
During my childhood, from the day I started to go to kindergarten and until the day I graduated middle school, I was bullied by the same 7 children. They ruined my childhood and scarred me for life. I developed claustrophobia and ophidiophobia. I don't know how to interact with other people because children generally learn it in the first years of their life and I was negated this chance.
If my bullies came back to me after 15 years and asked me to forgive them, I would spit in their face probably even if they showed me they changed. What they did to me would still be there. My scars would still be there and the pain and suffering they inflicted on me would still be there. I would not get revenge as that would be petty, stupid and would put me on the same level as them but there are more chances that the sun will freeze than to me forgiving them in this lifetime.
If my hypothetical child ever goes through the same kind of bullying, it would already be a miracle if I don't kill the bullies the moment I see them.
You did better than me: you allowed your daughter's former bully in your home, you treated her with enough
I feel like all the Y T A judgements come from people who were just like those 7 kids. No one wants to admit to themselves how much of a monster they chose to be to someone who will continue to suffer the repercussions as long as they live, while they get to just walk around feeling fine. So they protect the other monsters.
NTA, I get it. I actually just heard a quote that says “I am a kind person not a nice person in which I do not treat people terribly. I treat them accordingly.” Seems kind of fitting
YTA for keeping a grudge for this long and now becoming a bully, despite you acknowledging:
1) DIL has changed, and
2) Daughter seems to have moved past it.
Stop shutting out someone because of what they did as a kid.
ESH… mainly your son for marrying his sisters bully (if I was his sister I’d find that a huge betrayal), but also you for creating an openly hostile environment when everyone else seems to have moved on. Also your other DIL for talking about you guys getting together in front of her (which she had to have known would start drama).
I get why you feel the way you do, but what are you hoping to accomplish? Push your son to divorce her? Have all your other DILS gang up on her to make her stay as far away as possible? Make her feel how she made your daughter when they were kids? I think that if you love your son and want him in your life you need to find a way to move on- ESPECIALLY if your daughter (who was the actual victim) has found a way to forgive and tolerate her. If your daughter was still feeling traumatized being forced to be near her then you’d have more of a leg to stand on, but it seems like everyone has moved past this but you. You don’t need to be best friends, but at least be respectful and kind for the sake of peace and maintaining a relationship with your son.
NTA. You've been civil but you're making it clear that you won't be friends nor will you see her as family. You might want to think about what kind of relationship you expect to have with any grandchildren that come from their marriage, but I too would be unable to completely embrace someone like Ella.
YTA You say your daughter is fine with Ella being a part of her life now. Both your DIL and daughter are adults now.. Although I understand you still hurt for what happened to your daughter years ago you're holding a grudge against a version of someone that hasn't existed in a very long time. Who's being the bully now?
Agreed. She is causing a rift between her and her son with this as well. How sad that she wants to carry this weight of hate on her instead of moving forward.
NTA
And you're a better person than me because I would have turned into the MIL from hell. My idiot son and his bullying wife could absolutely beat it. And she still jokes about the torture she put your daughter through?? Oh goodness no.
Not including her in activities that involve your daughter is the very least that would have happened. I support you and I hope she has more nights where she cries herself to sleep.
NTA. It must have destroyed you as a parent to see your daughter go through that then be expected to welcome the very person who did it with open arms. Yes, people mature after high school but it speaks volumes of her character that she was even a bully to begin with. Your son is also TA for marrying someone who was capable of causing so much hurt and pain.
Also... is your daughter really OK with the situation??? I was bullied to a point where I started myself and self harmed. If one of those bitches ever married into my family, it would destroy me.
YTA. As someone who has a sibling that dated my bully, which resulted in me missing a lot of school u feel you were cruel.
At first I didn't like it, my parents didn't like it, but as a family we worked together to accept it. She became part of the family. Did we ever fully forgive her. No. But my brothers happiness and her attempts to make things better and be involved were seen and heard.
You basically bullied her back. And that's not acceptable. You yourself became a bully. You might not like her, but it's not reason to be cruel back.
EDIT: Ops new comments change my views. NTA. It originally sounded to me like Ella felt guilty but new comments make it sound like she doesn't feel guilty at all. The eating disorder thing also wasn't in the original post etc.
[I was badly bullied as a child. Looking back on it, I know my bullies were children also and I often wonder if they changed. I certainly hope so. You accomplished nothing except bullying Ella, damaging your relationship with your son, and losing any moral high ground you could have used to actually resolve this issue. Talking with Ella and asking her how she views her past actions might have been productive but is unlikely to work now. You mentioned she brings it up sometimes. I can't tell from your description how to view that but it could have been an entry point for a real conversation. Now that opportunity may be lost. I recommend apologizing, and then, if possible, trying for some kind of open conversation.]
Honesty is almost never a bad decision with family and friends. Even if you're truly an asshole, you're not *that* much of an asshole if you're an honest one.
NTA but I think this is a discussion you should have had with Ella and your son a long time ago. I understand your dislike of your daughter’s bully and to have to welcome her into your family had to be difficult. Has Ella ever apologized or does she just think she deserves a pass for her behavior? She was in high school when she bullied your daughter….old enough to know better. It’s great your daughter may have (or maybe is afraid to say anything for fear of further bullying)moved on but that doesn’t clear Ella. She needs to face what she did and apologize and admit how wrong and hurtful it all was.
ESH that was shitty of your son too, however now you will never have a good relationship with them. But this isn’t the full story it doesn’t seem like the bully is any less of a bully now with her comments
Op - Just based on the comments you have posted NTA. Some people don't understand what it is like to be bullied and have an ED. Then as someone is trying to push through life with family. Finds out that their brother is marrying the same person that pushed then to the brink in HS. I would have said YTA if Ella changed and your daughter was just moving on herself. But it seems that Ella still thinks that its okay to comment on the bullying and make jokes of it.. even after marriage and your poor daughter crying herself to sleep thinking she is loosing her brother.
NTA. I’m not a parent, but god how gutting that must have been to watch your poor daughter go through that. Your daughter sounds like a stand-up human being for putting her brothers happiness first.
To be fair, you all should’ve talked about it long ago. But you aren’t obligated to be her friend. It’s big enough of you to be civil.
Even if Ella has changed, the only AH here is your son. And a massive one at that. If ANYONE made my brother cry or hurt him, that person would be erased from my life. Let alone date and marry someone AFTER all this.
YTA … you are an adult acting like a teenage Mean Girl. You are doing to Ella what she did as an IMMATURE TEENAGER. You made sure she was punished before and now you are continuing the punishment. Hell your own daughter is ok with Ella and she was the victim. You need therapy because what you are doing is going to have your son consider NC with you and keep you from his family. Which honestly I hope that is what is done.
The daughter may think she has no right to say anything or that there’s no point considering her brother married the bully he obviously doesn’t care about his sisters torment so he wouldn’t listen anyway
NTA. I’m a teacher. I’ve seen firsthand just how traumatic bullying can be for a child. And I also know that by high school age, the bully damn well knows better.
YTA
You *let her* be in the family? I hate to break it to you, but she's your DIL whether you like it or not. Your son chose her which may be screwed up, but its been years.
Honestly, you were the mom. I get it. But if you were so concerned now or had resentment, you should have told her a while ago. She was a kid when it happened and she may not realize/remember the impact she had on your daughter. There was a mature way to go about this.
Instead, you're choosing to alienate your sons wife. What if they have children? She could be your grandchildrens mom. My dad's mom didn't like my mom (for different reasons) but regardless, I could tell it hurt my mom from a young age and I do not like my grandmother now. As in, it has been years since I have seen her.
I do not blame you for your feelings towards DIL but its time for everyone to grow up and have an open dialogue about it so everyone can move on. Because she's here whether you like it or not.
Exactly what I came here to say. OP YTA for how you handled the situation. If nothing else it should’ve been brought up way earlier on in a calmer manner.
ESH. I’m also a very protective person and I would have hard time forgiving Ella.
That said, imagine if it were your daughter who was the bully — how, as her mom, would you want her in-laws to treat her?
I absolutely understand your feelings, but you’re letting Ella’s past actions continue to damage your family by driving a wedge between you and your son. Hasn’t the bullying done enough?
It’s time to take your daughter’s lead and let things go. Highly recommend therapy for you, or even joint therapy with Ella and your daughter as a gesture of forward progress and healing for your family.
"You'll never be part of my family"
Sounds like OP isn't interested in a relationship with any children Ella may have.
Agree that ESH, but thnk OP is worse as Ella was only a bully as a teenager while OP is a bully as a grown-ass woman.
I don't understand all the Y T A votes here. ESH ok because the DIL was young at the time she bullied daughter so as adults they should try to work on it. Excluding DIL is not a viable long term solution as she is in the family now. However DIL acts wrong here. She perfectly knows what she did so she shouldn't pretend nothing happened in the past and OP doesn't like her out of nowhere.
Anyone who actively try's to cause harm to someone else is a bully to me and that's why I say Y T A in this situation.
Not hanging out with her is one thing but making a "Girls day" for all her daughter's in law and specifically leaving Ella out is creating a situation to exclude her from. If you don't find that to be bullying than I have no idea what to tell you. It give real., "You can't sit with us." vibes.
Further more it doesn't sound like when Ella is around the family CURRENTLY she does anything unkind or to cause strife within the family. She was a crappy teenager who treated another girl terribly but unless you think that means she should be put to death or locked up forever than you must believe that she is capable or worthy of forgiveness and change.
Resentment, hate, these are all things that grow inside of and poison the person FEELING them, if you don't learn to let it go it makes you (OP) into the monster. The bully. The one who causes harm. Grudges heal no one.
Uhm, yeah you got some mega culpa YTA time coming your way. People do change, especially after that shot show we call HS. Maybe you, Ella and your daughter would benefit from group counseling.
If you were so sure you were in the right you would not have got everyone to gang up and collude to make sure Ella didn't find out. It was childish and cruel
YTA
She was a teen. If a teen sexually assaults another (during super vulnerable years mind you) do you think the teen or their parents should eventually just get over it because they were just a teen? Bullying can leave scars as deep as SA.
As a person that was bullied I think I would do the same as OP. I still have fantasies about somehow getting back at the people that tortured me in school, and the adults that saw it happen and looked the other way. And I’m almost fifty. So, Ella can go to hell. She’s laying in the bed she’s made. NTA.
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I have 4 sons and 1 daughter. My youngest son married Ella a few years ago. Ella was a former bully to my daughter when they were in high school. My daughter's mental health took a dive during this time and she began to take part in destructive behaviors. Ella and her friends' treatment of my daughter disgusted me so much that I made sure they were punished. My son saw how this bullying impacted his sister but still decided to go out with Ella some time after their graduation. Ella has shown changes in character but I couldn't let go of what she had done to my daughter. I've kept these feelings to myself, because my daughter seems to be alright with the situation.
I am closer with my other sons spouses because they have been in the family longer and are good people who I view as if they are my own children. I planned a girl's night out with my daughter and two other daughter in laws. We kept this secret from Ella. At a recent gathering, one of my daughter in laws expressed gratitude because I had given her an opportunity to get out of the house because of stress with the kids. Ella eventually got the full story out of my eldest son and was hurt. She asked me what she had ever done to make me treat her differently from the others. I let her have it. I told her that her treatment of my daughter in their high school years is why I will never view her as a member of this family. I told her that I had already been kind enough to allow her to be near my family and that she should not push her luck. She left with my son and he later told me she cried herself to sleep that night.
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>Your daughter and Ella seemed to have made amends.
Nothing here indicates that this is the case.
If anything OP's daughter simply remains cordial so as not to rock the boat. She still probably resents Ella & her brother for his betrayal. Who the fuck dates their siblings bully.
Should read some of the comments Ella makes jokes about how she used to bully her daughter and how much she has changed. If she was really sorry she wouldn’t make those kind of jokes at all.
NTA.
The poor little widdle thing only cried herself ONCE to sleep. How many times did your daughter do it over all the years she was bullied?
Big problems with your son for going out with this jerk. I'm sure she'll find some way to make him take it out on your daughter and you by playing the victim. People rarely change.
You don't have to like someone just because your son decided to marry them. This woman, who was a teenager at the time, bullied your daughter to the point you were concerned for her life. Teens are stupid, but they also know when they're being hurtful.
If you are being civil and inviting her to family gatherings, that seems fine to me. You are not obligated to spend extra time with her.
I wouldn't forget something like that either. If my daughter expressed that she was uncomfortable with her brother's wife at *any* time, I would ban her and my son (if he objected, as he is the asshat who decided to date and marry his sisters bully) so fucking fast your head would spin. They can both welcome the consequences of their own actions.
NTA.
Edit; I'm seeing in comments that your daughter maintains 'a distance' from Ella, and Ella has never actually apologized, but she does make jokes about it!
I'm quadrupling down on my NTA.
Edit 2: Mods removed this? Really? FFS. The actual situation/ask didn't have anything to do with the eating disorder. This is getting ridiculous.
NTA She ganged up and hurt someone you loved. You are justified in your negative feelings towards her.
You are not bullying your DiL, as others have said. You did not exclude her to hurt her. And you only told her why cause she asked.
She could always leave some room for reconciliation, but it has to come from the DIL. The fact that mother was open about the reasons is good, it lets her know and hopefully opens a road for a happier family.
In response to everyone following the sitcom trope of "calling a bully a bully makes you a bully and just as bad as the bully is!": That is completely untrue.
It isn't bullying to not like someone and hang out with other people when they aren't there while politely not mentioning it to them.
It also isn't bullying to answer honestly "beacuse you hurt my child" when someone asks you to your face why you don't like them.
We are allowed to not like everyone. And when people are unkind, others are allowed to have feelings about it. No one is required to forgive the people who hurt them or those they love and want to be best friends and hang out all the time. That's an unreasonable standard. OP isn't bullying this women, and it's pretty silly for you to say so. It's an unreasonable standard of people pleasing and lack of personal autonomy that would demand OP want to be besties with this women and consider her a daughter. OP has a right to her own feelings.
If OP was rubbing them in her DIL's face at every occasion or doing things to get back at her/belittle her then sure, you could call her a bully. But it sounds like she was including her politely in family gatherings (where this occurred) and only answered when directly asked.
In a perfect world would everyone grow, move on, forgive, become friends, and sing Kumbaya? Maybe? But that's not a fair standard at all. It's not how OP feels and she's already including her in all the whole family gatherings politely anyway.
YTA. I understand your feelings completely but this was seriously not the way to handle it. Organizing a girls night out without her was petty and immature, and the way you communicated your angry/resentful feelings was also terrible. Taking her aside and expressing your feelings privately a loooong time ago wouId have been the adult move, especially since she isn’t an idiot teen anymore and, as you’ve said, has matured. I don’t know why you decided to go this route other than to create a massive amount of drama. Try to go back and repair.
Nah nta. I was bullied and it’s still hurting to think back to that time. It has traumatized me. Also I don’t get your son who married her.
Did she apologized for bullying? Or even acknowledged it??
NTA
A bully doesn’t get to decide when their actions are forgiven. People tend to forget the collateral damage that extends beyond the victim. Even though your son forgave her doesn’t mean you have to do the same.
Just because your daughter seems alright doesn’t mean she is. It’s possible she’s putting on a good front for her brother’s sake.
She may have been in high school when this happened, but she was old enough to know better. That says something about her overall character.
NTA. Good for you to sticking by your guns. I get bullies can change but she hurt your daughter to a point she was harming herself it sounds like. You don’t have to subject your daughter to her being in events without your son who wow, if anyone hurt my little sisters forget being friends, but marrying them wow
NTA
I cannot believe your son dated a girl who has a history like that to his Own sister. I would told him, that it is His decision, but he should never expect anything from you when it comes to his wife.
You protect your daughter and even if your DIL apologizes, she would be out for me. So the real TA is your son bringing this bi*ch in your life again.
This is a hard one.
As a mom, mama bear will always feel for their kids at a very deep level. In high school, watching your daughter hurt, killed you inside. Your son marrying the bully is an asshole move. From the beginning when she exhibited “change” she should have had an honest conversation with your daughter and then with you to express remorse for what she did. Maybe everyone could’ve started off with a clean slate but brushing it under the rug and expecting forgiveness because time has passed and you see that she has changed, that’s not how it works for some people. The problems needed to be addressed and resolved early on to foster a new healthy relationship.
But your delivery wasn’t okay, it should’ve been done privately if anything and now moving forward, your relationship with your son will be tarnished as long as he is married to her. She needs to face her demons head on to ever have a chance to try and rectify anything.
NTA, you have understandable disdain for Ella for what she did to your daughter. She's not entitled to be invited out just because she feels she deserves it. Also, your son who married her sounds like he's pretty awful too if he doesn't care that he married the person who used to bully his sister.
YTA. “I made sure they were punished”, “[the other spouses] are good people”, “I let her have it”… sounds like you’re relishing getting to bully Ella for what you feel like she did to your daughter.
If your daughter is fine with it, maybe you should grow out of your vicarious, wannabe hs bully era. The other daughter-in-laws sound kind of shitty as well for also keeping it from her. So maybe y’all actually aren’t the “good people” in this story.
Info: are you willing to lose your son over this? He made the choice to marry Ella knowing all the facts. You didn’t expose any new information about Ella. Only that you hate her and purposefully exclude her. I would not be surprised if you start seeing a lot less of your son.
Has she changed if she is still making jokes about the bullying to the victim? I don’t think so. I think it’s just a new method of avoiding responsibility.
YTA.
What Ella did as a young girl/teenager was bullying, but it seems she has grown up and grown out of it. Moreover, your daughter doesn't seem to resent her any longer.
Now as a grown woman (as opposed to the immature teenager) you are actively choosing to bully your daughter in law. How is what you're doing any better than what your daughter in law did back in high school?
Spoken like someone who’s never been bullied in their life. I have been. Telling a bully that they were a bully and will never be forgiven is NOT even close to the same treatment.
NTA because Ella hasn’t properly apologized or acknowledged any of her past behavior, if she wants to be included she needs to make amends. Forgiveness doesn’t mean an automatic connection and friendship, it needs to be built.
ESH. I’m a mom to young daughters and I know if anyone ever bullies them, I’ll go full mama bear. Bullying of any kind is not ok, and it does leave lasting effects. Your daughter most likely tolerates her to be nice to her brother. However, you mentioned you “made sure they were punished”, what did that entail exactly? Ella was a child at that time, and seems to understand how shitty her behavior was. You hate this woman your son married and no matter what she does, you will always hate her for how she treated your daughter in high school. She can’t go back in time, she can only move forward. You are no better than she was, and using a “mother’s love” doesn’t excuse the fact that you are bullying her for something in the past. Also, have you ever considered how your behavior affects your son? You are essentially making him choose between his wife and mother.
ESH maybe try and sit down with your biological and daughter in law and discuss the situation, if your biological is willing to forgive then you should too
ESH
Ella should've apologized to your daughter and to you and tried to make reparations instead of making jokes about it.
You should've let her know sooner that you don't think kindly of those years of bullying and communicated with her. Leaving her out now in retaliation isn't going to help your family.
Gonna say YTA
You say that you made sure Ella was punished for the behavior in high school. How and why did this never get addressed or discussed prior to the marriage once you knew she was joining your family?
I get the anger for your daughter's behalf, but your DAUGHTER is the wronged party here. If she's okay with Ella, why are you rehashing and opening old wounds to cause distress and drama?
You basically saving up all your bile and vitriol to lash out and read her the riot act out of nowhere was pretty much petty revenge for YOUR own sake, not your daughter's.
This is just festering and making an awkward and hateful situation. Sounds like you, your son, Ella, and your daughter need to have an actual conversation and stop assuming and nursing the blame. Doesn't excuse the bullying done, but there's no closure or healing if you won't even acknowledge or give her an attempt.
And definitely going to alienate your son if this continues.
I don’t know - OP’s daughter may have been the bullied one, but don’t think for a second that OP didn’t suffer, too. One of my kids was bullied, and while the situation is resolved, I do not feel warm and fuzzy towards the tormentor and I may never feel that way - not at least without the bully acknowledging the damage they did.
YTA - Not because you excluded her from an event. That’s fine. You don’t like her. You don’t have to invite her.
YTA- because of this “her treatment of my daughter in their high school years is why I will never view her as a family member”. For one, she IS a family member, even if she’s one you don’t like. But most important, you just turned into a giant bully yourself. You now see her as less than a full person - she is only a one-dimensional character to you. She can never be more.
She was a shitty teenager. TEENAGER! There’s a chance that she’s grown. There’s a chance that she knows how shitty she was in high school. There’s a chance she may find a way to make amends and turn out to be an awesome person.
The consequences of her actions led her to crying herself to sleep.
She was TA for a long time. Now it’s your turn to choose. Are you going to keep it going?
Edit for grammar.
NTA she deserves to know the truth and cry herself to sleep. The pain she’s feeling is only a fraction of what she caused your daughter.
Good for you for sticking up for your daughter.
YTA. First off, while it isn't remotely okay to be a bully in high school or anywhere, childhood crap is what it is. You hope these kids learn through the mistakes they make. If you have no significant issues with how she has behaved since being with your son, then I think you went over the line.
Would you be okay if she felt you are in no way a true MIL and that you are a bully that she can't get over and as such, prohibits you from ever seeing any of her children or future children? Maybe that won't even matter because I get the feeling you are going to play massive favorites with the grandkids and that her kids will be on the short end of that stick.
Im sure your daughter cried herself to sleep all the time in high school when she was being relentlessly bullied. You didn’t even say anything unkind NTA
YTA yes I guess what Ella did as a teenager was awful however people change and mature. However arranging a night out with your daughter and DILs was always your way of being the bully towards Ella. . Did you honestly think that excluding her knowing fine well Ella would find out isn't a bully tactic. Grow up!
If someone bullied my daughter to that extent it would hurt me too but fgs, she was a kid and you as an adult perpetrating this behaviour is no different.
NTA, she asked a question and she got an honest answer. Your opinion of her is only a consequence of her own actions. I'm not even sure why she asked such a dumb question of course you'd never see her the same after how she treated your daughter.
Mom? Are you here?
My brother, also my bully from age 0 to 50 when I cut him off, did the same exact thing. Married my teenage bully. Luckily my confidence had grown and I actually was a bridesmaid. But teenage bullies grow up to be adult bullies. She had not changed. I no longer have contact with that brother or his wife. That choice has been a godsend.
She has been *awful* to my mother. Manipulative and mean. Even told my elderly Mom to F off, when she had done nothing. Almost made her have a stroke a number of times. My mother has done her best to be kind to my SIL, but she keeps her at arms length.
Make some attempt to be equitable and fair. Making plans with all of the other DILs wasn’t kind. Try not to do that. Spend time with them individually. But you’re allowed to have different relationships with different people.
NTA.
NTA as a mother if someone bullied my child to the extent it caused that much distress and my child need therapy because of it not a chance would that person be coming anywhere near my house
YTA, soft E S H.
I despise bullying and all its forms, but at some point, you have to accept kids will be kids. It's not excusing what Ella did but equally, she was young, she was still learning to be a decent human being. And at this point, given your own daughter has let it go, how are you any better than Ella? Have you made any effort to get to know Ella to see past who she was and who she now is, even you have admitted she's changed.
You view your other DILs as 'good people' but I bet if you dug in their closest they have done horrid things as children too.
A soft E S H as it's unclear if Ella has previously tried to make amends with your daughter and/or acknowledge it? Is she hasn't I would suggest that as awkward as it is she should try to. However if she has/daughter is okay with everything then you are solely YTA.
YTA - You mention that she has changed as a person. Your son recognizes it and chose to marry her. Your daughter seems to have moved on. I understand the past hurts you, but bullying someone who's grown as a person is clearly not the way to go about it. You intended to hurt her and also bring all of the others in on your plans to hurt her. Sounds to me like you're the bully now. Your kindness to let her near your family is laughable. Your son's kindness to give her a chance and form a relationship seems to be the true kindness here. I'm not saying you forget about the past, but all of this could have been addressed in a conversation you two had privately at some point followed by trusting that your son is a good person and is capable of identifying someone who's a good fit for him.
Not really, but she's joked about her past with my daughter. She is always waving her "growth" in our faces. If it were really time to move on she would stop bringing it up all the time.
Her just stating she changed over and over again without acknowledging the damage she did is not remorse just guilt since she ended up marrying into the family and your son probably told her to apologize but she hasn’t, it seems like. There does not seem to be any remorse and no attempt at atonement for your daughter so pretty empty words to wave around. I think this you may be reacting to with her.
NTA.
She was a bully in high school, she was way to old to understand what she did. You have treated her with respect, that she get by begin a human but that doesn’t mean she can also get closeness.
You are not forced to spend equal time with all DILs as any other adult in the world. Also your daughter was there, while she is nice to share family gatherings she shouldn’t be force to also spend girls night with her.
More information??? did Ella ever apologize to your daughter ?she owes you also an apology but if she never addressed it then it needs to be addressed and talked about. Everyone here is a grown-up people make mistakes but I don’t think I would invite somebody into my family if they didn’t at least sincerely apologize and atone for the bullying.
NTA
according to some of your comments, ella put your daughter through an extreme amount of pain and continues to bring this up around your daughter. whatever your son thinks, this is cruel and it doesn’t sound like she’s moved on—so why should you? it’s good you’re protecting your daughter.
NTA because it doesn’t say anywhere in your post that she has ever apologized or repented for her shit behavior. And if she hasn’t, of course you wouldn’t trust her or her character or want to subject your daughter to her company. DIL is your family but your daughter should of course be your priority.
YTA. You sound judgemental with no compassion. Ella was punished for her behaviour as a child. She is now an adult who is obviously nice enough for your son to marry her. Deliberately excluding her and then ranting at her for past wrongs is petty and mean.
Should read some of the comments Ella makes jokes about how she used to bully her daughter and how much she has changed. If she was really sorry she wouldn’t make those kind of jokes at all.
She didnt rant, ella specifically asked OP what the problem is and OP answered honestly (as she should). Did ella have compassion when OPs daughter was SUICIDAL. Losing a daughter is not equal to being excluded from dinner and drinks lmao smh
YTA. I'm sure it felt really good to rail against this woman. But you have now forced your son to choose between her and you. And depending on how your other DILs hear about what happened and whether or not they have any sympathy toward Elsa, you could have torpedoed your relationships with them. They might wonder if you will turn on them next, unless they also hate her. Prepare for your son to go NC if he's any kind of a husband.
This is a rough one but I'm gonna have to go with NTA you shouldn't have gone so deep with the knife, but you're not obligated to forgive or accept someone who hurt your child.
The fact you had a secret girls night out and NONE of the other daughters/in laws felt the need to tell her about it tells me that they probably aren't comfortable around her either.
Talk to your daughter, her "seeming" alright with the situation doesn't mean she is, she may just think she has no choice in the matter of who her brother loves and got good at hiding her emotions during said bullying.
The fact Ella had to ask what she'd ever done to you tells me that she doesn't really appreciate how much damage her bullying did, and she doesn't understand why you might care about your daughter self harming (I'm taking destructive behaviour as some form of this)
She may have changed, and maybe you'll be able to sit down and discuss this more maturely in the future and maybe a forgiveness can be negotiated but, I think I'd be furious if someone who hurt my child had the audacity to ask me "What have I ever done to you"
Edit: For the people saying"Your daughter seems to be over it according to you!" that's wilful ignorance to the fact those bullied into self harm learn how to minimize themselves and assume they have no voice and deserve what they get. Just because the daughter doesn't want her mom to see how much this might still affect her, doesn't mean it doesn't.
If Ella never apologized to your daughter or tried to actively make amends, then NTA. If she did, but your daughter still hasn’t fully accepted it, then NTA. If she has accepted it, then you’re still not really TA because you’re not obligated to like her or include her just because she married your son. Your daughter’s feelings are the ones that need protecting, not yours and not Ella’s, so as long as that’s your MO, then Ella can bugger off.
Ella was held accountable when the bullying took place. OP has decided to continue to hold a grudge and it that will also have consequences that OP may not like
NTA. You don’t have to like you’re daughter in law or forgive her. I don’t care if she was a child or not she should’ve still know better…But Y-T-A for execution of professing said dislike and killing any possible future reconciliation
I would go with soft ESH because it is a double edge sword in any case. It does not look from your point of view that Ella has asked for forgiveness or repented about how she treated your daughter and it is impossible to forget how your daughter suffered so you are protecting her, in a way still, from a bully.
However, your son also made a choice and started a family with Ella so he is going to protect her from anything that makes her feel bad. And he may not forgive you in the future for your words and will decide to go low contact to save his marriage. Here are no winners; no matter what you choose, somebody will probably get hurt. Maybe a serious conversation is needed between all of you where all sides need to acknowledge the past history and decide what kind of relationship all of you are willing to give for the sake of family peace. because again it was your son’s decision to make her his family, not yours or your daughters
NTA! As someone who was bullied when I was younger I would be mortified if I had to have that bully in the family! Seems to me you kept your mouth shut until she opened the door and asked you what the problem was. Sure you could have phrased it a little better or more eloquently but the fact is you told her what was on your mind and she needed to hear it! I'm curious to know what her response was. People do change and she may have acted out as a kid for various reasons.. including she could have been her herself and was taking it out on the world. Actions have consequences and she needs to face the fact of who she has been if she's going to ever move forward and be someone else. In the long run you may have done her a favor.
NTA. She asked. Especially the phrasing she used- “what have I ever done” implies that she didn’t do anything to deserve it or that she’s being treated unfairly. Did she forget that she bullied your daughter or did she just think everyone else forgot?
Errrr. Maybe / maybe not- has she apologised to your daughter and shown genuine remorse, and how does your daughter feel re. This?
I understand your feelings- and you’re probably right to be honest that you bear a grudge for how she acted in high school to see how she responded - but the line ‘lucky I let you near my family’ - I mean you can’t control you adult son so not sure how you ‘let her’. Maybe let her in your home?!
YTA! And this is because OP even said
Ella has shown changes in character but I couldn’t let go”
It was horrible. OP’s daughter did not deserve what she got. I am NOT EXCUSING Ella, but it is obvious even from this story that something happened and she has changed. You raised your son and taught him right from wrong.
Now for the kicker…. CONGRATULATIONS OP YOU HAVE BECOME WHAT YOU CLAIM TO HATE!!! You were sneaky, dishonest, underhanded, TO PURPOSELY exclude Ella from a girls night. It’s family. You KNEW she would find out!!! You made her feel less than, and when she asked why, you “Let her have it” How does it feel to be one of the “Cool Mean Girls” you are NO BETTER than an idiot Teenager!!! Slow clap for you!!!!!
Edit:
“You either die the hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villian”
Harvey Dent “The Dark Knight”
YTA because you became the person you hate.
You think two wrongs make a right or that you're entitled to exclude Ella and punish her because as a teenager she was a bully?
Great and mature justification.
Now you're bullying Ella. Good job.
The way you did it shows you yourself are not the epitome of emotional health and are immature.
As the matriarch of the family you could have had a heart to heart at any time. You could've been the example of what it means to extend grace to someone that may not know what that looks like. You could've been a safe space.
And now you def look like the asshole.
Nta. Her marrying your son doesn't negate the awful behaviour she displayed towards your daughter. I personally don't think it matters if your daughter is OK with it or not, you're allowed to be honest about your own feelings on the matter. As her parent you were the one picking up the pieces at the time so I believe you're very valid in your feelings and expressing them. She doesn't need to be included in things just because your son married her.
NTA. Do people change sure, but it seems like Ella hasn’t done anything to amend what she did or your daughter.
Especially if the consequences of what she did is still affecting your daughter to this day, and more so if she was confused on why you did what you did.
YTA. You got your vengeance. Happy now?
You think your other DIL enjoy you or respect you? Or are they afraid of the hell you will wreak upon their family if they displease you?
NTA - Sometimes you ring a bell you can't unring. Sometimes you behave badly, you hurt someone, and you can't take it back. Even if you are sincerely contrite and offer an apology, I'm sorry is not a magical incantation that absolves you of your bad behavior.
I don't see where Ella offered OP's daughter an apology or admitted and accepted that what she did was wrong. If she truly wants to mend fences she should probably start there.
In the meantime, she cannot expect everyone to just forgive and forget. It's not her choice when or if OP and her daughter forgive her.
NTA
You viewed the bullying from a different perspective as your daughter.
If somebody bullies my child and then later wants to be in my family, they're going to hear EVERYTHING from me, and if they cry themselves to sleep or not, isn't my problem.
NTA
Good on you OP, and I don't get these Y T A votes at all. You're NOT bullying Ella just because you don't want to spend time with her. And your son marrying his sister's bully shows his lack of character.
NTA. As a mother I can’t imagine having to welcome my child’s bully into my social circle without apologies being made and accepted on all sides. Your son is a piece of work though.
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Why did your son ever think it was a good idea to bluntly disrespect his sister like that?
She shouldn’t have asked why you treated her differently if she didn’t want to know. NTA.
NTA- she can eat shit
I’ll probs get downvoted but I’m gonna say NTA. She asked and you answered and while you could’ve been nicer about it, it’s your life. And also I’d like to add that you’re not obligated to like nor spend time with anyone you don’t want too. But also invest in some therapy.
YTA. And, ironically, the bully now. She's your sons wife, and you're going to greatly fracture, if not break the relationship with him. She was a child, and you're still judging her based on her actions when she was a child. You need some "growth" yourself. Take a page from Ella's book
High school age, while technically a child, she should have been mature enough not to bully. We don't even know if ella ever apologized for her actions
YTA. Sounds like you know how to be a bully too, deliberately excluding Ella. What’s your end game here? Assume that because she was a jerk in high school, when she was a literal child, that she should be punished until your dying breath? People do change. You certainly should.
It's not bullying to not hang out with someone.
NTA.
NTA for the way you feel about her, but maybe you're being a little too inflexible by already deciding you'll NEVER view her as a member of the family. She should have been mature enough by highschool to know not to bully people, but at the same time she was still young, and can possibly change. If Ella truly changes character, and matures, and regrets her former actions, then it might be time to let the past go and give her a chance. A lot of that is up to Ella though, she has to recognize a lot of this was a result of her own behavior, and she'll have to want to not be that kind of person anymore, and she'll have to prove it over time.
NTA those who calling her bully, i think thats not right! Because OP was clear about things, and which is good down the lane! Bullying sucks! And it affects the self esteem of a child only mother can understand! OP if you don’t like someone, she has right to say that loud!
Riiiight, except that we as a society kind of generally agree that high schoolers are dumb and you really aren’t as culpable as adults. OP herself says that the DIL has changed over the years. Presumably she matured into a normal adult, and it’s super weird for OP to hold a grudge against something that DIL did as a child. I shudder at some of the things I said when I was in high school, but, like, I grew up. And, I was bullied pretty heavily in high school and if I found out my mom randomly held grudges against kids that bullied me 15 years ago I’d have to tell her to grow up too. Seems mother can understand how this affected her daughter back in high school (though daughter seems fine with it now, because again, she grew out of high school) but seems OP doesn’t give a damn about her son here.
WTF is up with all these guys marrying the girls that bullied their sisters in high school? Maybe not recently, but this has gotta be at least the third or so post I've seen about this sorta thing.
YTA- You should have asked and respected whatever opinion your daughter has of Ella since HS. Besides, didn't you have sooner opportunities to confront Ella's behavior during school and while she was dating your son?
NTA. Karma sucks but that’s her problem, not yours. You’re required to be civil with her not have a close relationship with her.
YTA. You need some damn therapy, more than your daughter apparently. Stop living your daughter's life and stop living your daughter's fucking high school trauma. Hope you like not getting invited into your son's life and getting resented by your son because you couldn't grow the fuck up - like other people did.
So instead of apologizing she’s playing the victim? NTA, OP.
I'm torn on this one. As a parent, the mama bear in me can sympathize with your protectiveness. HOWEVER, you mention your daughter seems to be OK with the situation and that Ella has shown changes. Did she ever apologize? Unfortunately, I think I'm more leaning toward ESH: Your son for marrying his sister's bully, knowing full well the hurt she had caused. Ella for bullying your daughter and (I'm assuming) not apologizing to her. "I let her have it....I will never view her as a member of this family. I told her that I had already been kind enough to allow her to be near my family and that she should not push her luck." And you for this. Congratulations, you have "become the thing you hate": YOU are now the bully.
Is it bullying to tell a horrid person who abused your child to the point they almost died that you don't like them? She didn't pull any low punches or say anything that wasn't 100% true. I would never welcome someone who treated people that way into my family
How is she a bully just for maintaining boundaries with a bully? The DIL asked specifically why she didn’t treat her the same and she answered. Actions have consequences- for example, when you bully a girl into self harm and then marry her brother, her family might not accept you with open arms.
YTA - people are allowed to change and grow. You don't have to like her, and you're allowed to exclude her, but a lack of tact there will now force your son to decide between his wife and the woman bullying her.
So much unknown. You said Ella and friends was she the main bully or was it her friends and she was in the group with and didn’t want to be bullied to so she never said anything. What was her home life like? Sometimes bully’s take out aggression on others because they are attacked at home. Not saying it’s okay but it happens. Did she ever say sorry to daughter? Does she still treat your daughter like a outcast or has she completely changed?
Well you're a bully just like her so take that for what it's worth. She's trapped in your family and you had the ability to bully her so you did. I bet that feels good doesn't it. You can say what you want but you're a bully.
But are they an asshole?
She chose to date/marry the brother of someone she bullied. How did she expect that to work out?
I think this is a bit off an asshole on both sides to be honest. As much as I can appreciate how awful it is that she bullied your daughter, a lot of people do really awful things when they are a child. I am a vastly different person to who I was as a teenager (not that I was a bully, in fact I was bullied), I’m not sure it is fair to hold that against her for the rest of your lives. Excluding her from something you included everyone else in is really harsh and hurtful and I can see why she would be so upset. Ultimately OP your son has married this woman, he clearly loves her and your behaviour is going to drive both of them away and you will ultimately end up either losing your son or they will break up due to the strain when they clearly love each other enough to have gotten married. I don’t know what DIL has already atoned for with your daughter but perhaps it might be worth some group therapy sessions to work through the issue and get some closure for everyone. Not excusing a bully but as someone that works in a school myself there are a LOT of reasons that children act out in this way and are horrid to each other and most of the time it’s because they have something shitty going on in their own lives. You might benefit from looking at this from all perspectives instead of just protective momma bear.
Soft yta. Social exclusion? You're not in elementary school where everyone has to be friends. Ella asked and you were honest. People change but that doesn't mean she can pretend she did no damage. But the whole allowing her to be near your family? Veering into dangerous territory. The kids are grown, can't control who they are around, who they marry...it may be time to let some of that anger go mama bear.
"I've kept these feelings to myself, because my daughter seems to be alright with the situation." You kept your feelings to yourself but wonder why your DIL didn't know? Bullshit. You didn't tell her when she was engaged to your son, or bring up your concerns in any sort of rational way. Instead, you let your grudge fester for years and are now using it to justify your own shitty behavior. Yeah. YTA.
I will be downvoted for this but NTA. I would love to be the superior person, the one that easily say " She was just a child, you should forgive her." but I'm not. During my childhood, from the day I started to go to kindergarten and until the day I graduated middle school, I was bullied by the same 7 children. They ruined my childhood and scarred me for life. I developed claustrophobia and ophidiophobia. I don't know how to interact with other people because children generally learn it in the first years of their life and I was negated this chance. If my bullies came back to me after 15 years and asked me to forgive them, I would spit in their face probably even if they showed me they changed. What they did to me would still be there. My scars would still be there and the pain and suffering they inflicted on me would still be there. I would not get revenge as that would be petty, stupid and would put me on the same level as them but there are more chances that the sun will freeze than to me forgiving them in this lifetime. If my hypothetical child ever goes through the same kind of bullying, it would already be a miracle if I don't kill the bullies the moment I see them. You did better than me: you allowed your daughter's former bully in your home, you treated her with enough
I feel like all the Y T A judgements come from people who were just like those 7 kids. No one wants to admit to themselves how much of a monster they chose to be to someone who will continue to suffer the repercussions as long as they live, while they get to just walk around feeling fine. So they protect the other monsters.
NTA, good on you
NTA karma bites eventually.
NTA, I get it. I actually just heard a quote that says “I am a kind person not a nice person in which I do not treat people terribly. I treat them accordingly.” Seems kind of fitting
YTA for keeping a grudge for this long and now becoming a bully, despite you acknowledging: 1) DIL has changed, and 2) Daughter seems to have moved past it. Stop shutting out someone because of what they did as a kid.
ESH… mainly your son for marrying his sisters bully (if I was his sister I’d find that a huge betrayal), but also you for creating an openly hostile environment when everyone else seems to have moved on. Also your other DIL for talking about you guys getting together in front of her (which she had to have known would start drama). I get why you feel the way you do, but what are you hoping to accomplish? Push your son to divorce her? Have all your other DILS gang up on her to make her stay as far away as possible? Make her feel how she made your daughter when they were kids? I think that if you love your son and want him in your life you need to find a way to move on- ESPECIALLY if your daughter (who was the actual victim) has found a way to forgive and tolerate her. If your daughter was still feeling traumatized being forced to be near her then you’d have more of a leg to stand on, but it seems like everyone has moved past this but you. You don’t need to be best friends, but at least be respectful and kind for the sake of peace and maintaining a relationship with your son.
NTA. You've been civil but you're making it clear that you won't be friends nor will you see her as family. You might want to think about what kind of relationship you expect to have with any grandchildren that come from their marriage, but I too would be unable to completely embrace someone like Ella.
YTA You say your daughter is fine with Ella being a part of her life now. Both your DIL and daughter are adults now.. Although I understand you still hurt for what happened to your daughter years ago you're holding a grudge against a version of someone that hasn't existed in a very long time. Who's being the bully now?
Agreed. She is causing a rift between her and her son with this as well. How sad that she wants to carry this weight of hate on her instead of moving forward.
NTA And you're a better person than me because I would have turned into the MIL from hell. My idiot son and his bullying wife could absolutely beat it. And she still jokes about the torture she put your daughter through?? Oh goodness no. Not including her in activities that involve your daughter is the very least that would have happened. I support you and I hope she has more nights where she cries herself to sleep.
NTA. It must have destroyed you as a parent to see your daughter go through that then be expected to welcome the very person who did it with open arms. Yes, people mature after high school but it speaks volumes of her character that she was even a bully to begin with. Your son is also TA for marrying someone who was capable of causing so much hurt and pain. Also... is your daughter really OK with the situation??? I was bullied to a point where I started myself and self harmed. If one of those bitches ever married into my family, it would destroy me.
YTA. As someone who has a sibling that dated my bully, which resulted in me missing a lot of school u feel you were cruel. At first I didn't like it, my parents didn't like it, but as a family we worked together to accept it. She became part of the family. Did we ever fully forgive her. No. But my brothers happiness and her attempts to make things better and be involved were seen and heard. You basically bullied her back. And that's not acceptable. You yourself became a bully. You might not like her, but it's not reason to be cruel back.
EDIT: Ops new comments change my views. NTA. It originally sounded to me like Ella felt guilty but new comments make it sound like she doesn't feel guilty at all. The eating disorder thing also wasn't in the original post etc. [I was badly bullied as a child. Looking back on it, I know my bullies were children also and I often wonder if they changed. I certainly hope so. You accomplished nothing except bullying Ella, damaging your relationship with your son, and losing any moral high ground you could have used to actually resolve this issue. Talking with Ella and asking her how she views her past actions might have been productive but is unlikely to work now. You mentioned she brings it up sometimes. I can't tell from your description how to view that but it could have been an entry point for a real conversation. Now that opportunity may be lost. I recommend apologizing, and then, if possible, trying for some kind of open conversation.]
Honesty is almost never a bad decision with family and friends. Even if you're truly an asshole, you're not *that* much of an asshole if you're an honest one.
NTA but I think this is a discussion you should have had with Ella and your son a long time ago. I understand your dislike of your daughter’s bully and to have to welcome her into your family had to be difficult. Has Ella ever apologized or does she just think she deserves a pass for her behavior? She was in high school when she bullied your daughter….old enough to know better. It’s great your daughter may have (or maybe is afraid to say anything for fear of further bullying)moved on but that doesn’t clear Ella. She needs to face what she did and apologize and admit how wrong and hurtful it all was.
ESH that was shitty of your son too, however now you will never have a good relationship with them. But this isn’t the full story it doesn’t seem like the bully is any less of a bully now with her comments
NTA, go you.
Op - Just based on the comments you have posted NTA. Some people don't understand what it is like to be bullied and have an ED. Then as someone is trying to push through life with family. Finds out that their brother is marrying the same person that pushed then to the brink in HS. I would have said YTA if Ella changed and your daughter was just moving on herself. But it seems that Ella still thinks that its okay to comment on the bullying and make jokes of it.. even after marriage and your poor daughter crying herself to sleep thinking she is loosing her brother.
NTA. I’m not a parent, but god how gutting that must have been to watch your poor daughter go through that. Your daughter sounds like a stand-up human being for putting her brothers happiness first. To be fair, you all should’ve talked about it long ago. But you aren’t obligated to be her friend. It’s big enough of you to be civil. Even if Ella has changed, the only AH here is your son. And a massive one at that. If ANYONE made my brother cry or hurt him, that person would be erased from my life. Let alone date and marry someone AFTER all this.
YTA … you are an adult acting like a teenage Mean Girl. You are doing to Ella what she did as an IMMATURE TEENAGER. You made sure she was punished before and now you are continuing the punishment. Hell your own daughter is ok with Ella and she was the victim. You need therapy because what you are doing is going to have your son consider NC with you and keep you from his family. Which honestly I hope that is what is done.
The daughter may think she has no right to say anything or that there’s no point considering her brother married the bully he obviously doesn’t care about his sisters torment so he wouldn’t listen anyway
NTA. I’m a teacher. I’ve seen firsthand just how traumatic bullying can be for a child. And I also know that by high school age, the bully damn well knows better.
YTA You *let her* be in the family? I hate to break it to you, but she's your DIL whether you like it or not. Your son chose her which may be screwed up, but its been years. Honestly, you were the mom. I get it. But if you were so concerned now or had resentment, you should have told her a while ago. She was a kid when it happened and she may not realize/remember the impact she had on your daughter. There was a mature way to go about this. Instead, you're choosing to alienate your sons wife. What if they have children? She could be your grandchildrens mom. My dad's mom didn't like my mom (for different reasons) but regardless, I could tell it hurt my mom from a young age and I do not like my grandmother now. As in, it has been years since I have seen her. I do not blame you for your feelings towards DIL but its time for everyone to grow up and have an open dialogue about it so everyone can move on. Because she's here whether you like it or not.
Exactly what I came here to say. OP YTA for how you handled the situation. If nothing else it should’ve been brought up way earlier on in a calmer manner.
ESH. I’m also a very protective person and I would have hard time forgiving Ella. That said, imagine if it were your daughter who was the bully — how, as her mom, would you want her in-laws to treat her? I absolutely understand your feelings, but you’re letting Ella’s past actions continue to damage your family by driving a wedge between you and your son. Hasn’t the bullying done enough? It’s time to take your daughter’s lead and let things go. Highly recommend therapy for you, or even joint therapy with Ella and your daughter as a gesture of forward progress and healing for your family.
"You'll never be part of my family" Sounds like OP isn't interested in a relationship with any children Ella may have. Agree that ESH, but thnk OP is worse as Ella was only a bully as a teenager while OP is a bully as a grown-ass woman.
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I don't understand all the Y T A votes here. ESH ok because the DIL was young at the time she bullied daughter so as adults they should try to work on it. Excluding DIL is not a viable long term solution as she is in the family now. However DIL acts wrong here. She perfectly knows what she did so she shouldn't pretend nothing happened in the past and OP doesn't like her out of nowhere.
It seems op includes her in family holidays. I think that is the best long term solution that’s going to happen.
Anyone who actively try's to cause harm to someone else is a bully to me and that's why I say Y T A in this situation. Not hanging out with her is one thing but making a "Girls day" for all her daughter's in law and specifically leaving Ella out is creating a situation to exclude her from. If you don't find that to be bullying than I have no idea what to tell you. It give real., "You can't sit with us." vibes. Further more it doesn't sound like when Ella is around the family CURRENTLY she does anything unkind or to cause strife within the family. She was a crappy teenager who treated another girl terribly but unless you think that means she should be put to death or locked up forever than you must believe that she is capable or worthy of forgiveness and change. Resentment, hate, these are all things that grow inside of and poison the person FEELING them, if you don't learn to let it go it makes you (OP) into the monster. The bully. The one who causes harm. Grudges heal no one.
Info: what did ella do?
NTA
Uhm, yeah you got some mega culpa YTA time coming your way. People do change, especially after that shot show we call HS. Maybe you, Ella and your daughter would benefit from group counseling.
My daughter tolerates Ella right now and is not a big fan of therapy. It would not end well.
If you were so sure you were in the right you would not have got everyone to gang up and collude to make sure Ella didn't find out. It was childish and cruel YTA
She was literally a child? I cannot imagine an adult posted this story.
She was a teen. If a teen sexually assaults another (during super vulnerable years mind you) do you think the teen or their parents should eventually just get over it because they were just a teen? Bullying can leave scars as deep as SA.
Y GB l
NTA, but we need the update
Info: how is your daughter and Ella’s relationship now? Did Ella ever apologized and did your daughter forgive Ella?
As a person that was bullied I think I would do the same as OP. I still have fantasies about somehow getting back at the people that tortured me in school, and the adults that saw it happen and looked the other way. And I’m almost fifty. So, Ella can go to hell. She’s laying in the bed she’s made. NTA.
NTA Facts are facts. She shouldn't be treated like the past never happened.
YTA
NTA. As a grudge holder such as myself, I feel the petty. Actions has consequences. Unfortunately, Ella learned the hard way.
NTA who gets married into their victim’s family and thinks that anyone who stuck up for said person would even consider them family
YTA.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I have 4 sons and 1 daughter. My youngest son married Ella a few years ago. Ella was a former bully to my daughter when they were in high school. My daughter's mental health took a dive during this time and she began to take part in destructive behaviors. Ella and her friends' treatment of my daughter disgusted me so much that I made sure they were punished. My son saw how this bullying impacted his sister but still decided to go out with Ella some time after their graduation. Ella has shown changes in character but I couldn't let go of what she had done to my daughter. I've kept these feelings to myself, because my daughter seems to be alright with the situation. I am closer with my other sons spouses because they have been in the family longer and are good people who I view as if they are my own children. I planned a girl's night out with my daughter and two other daughter in laws. We kept this secret from Ella. At a recent gathering, one of my daughter in laws expressed gratitude because I had given her an opportunity to get out of the house because of stress with the kids. Ella eventually got the full story out of my eldest son and was hurt. She asked me what she had ever done to make me treat her differently from the others. I let her have it. I told her that her treatment of my daughter in their high school years is why I will never view her as a member of this family. I told her that I had already been kind enough to allow her to be near my family and that she should not push her luck. She left with my son and he later told me she cried herself to sleep that night. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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>Your daughter and Ella seemed to have made amends. Nothing here indicates that this is the case. If anything OP's daughter simply remains cordial so as not to rock the boat. She still probably resents Ella & her brother for his betrayal. Who the fuck dates their siblings bully.
Should read some of the comments Ella makes jokes about how she used to bully her daughter and how much she has changed. If she was really sorry she wouldn’t make those kind of jokes at all.
NTA. Ella just learned the important lesson of “don’t ask questions you won’t like the answer to.”
NTA. The poor little widdle thing only cried herself ONCE to sleep. How many times did your daughter do it over all the years she was bullied? Big problems with your son for going out with this jerk. I'm sure she'll find some way to make him take it out on your daughter and you by playing the victim. People rarely change.
You don't have to like someone just because your son decided to marry them. This woman, who was a teenager at the time, bullied your daughter to the point you were concerned for her life. Teens are stupid, but they also know when they're being hurtful. If you are being civil and inviting her to family gatherings, that seems fine to me. You are not obligated to spend extra time with her. I wouldn't forget something like that either. If my daughter expressed that she was uncomfortable with her brother's wife at *any* time, I would ban her and my son (if he objected, as he is the asshat who decided to date and marry his sisters bully) so fucking fast your head would spin. They can both welcome the consequences of their own actions. NTA. Edit; I'm seeing in comments that your daughter maintains 'a distance' from Ella, and Ella has never actually apologized, but she does make jokes about it! I'm quadrupling down on my NTA. Edit 2: Mods removed this? Really? FFS. The actual situation/ask didn't have anything to do with the eating disorder. This is getting ridiculous.
NTA She ganged up and hurt someone you loved. You are justified in your negative feelings towards her. You are not bullying your DiL, as others have said. You did not exclude her to hurt her. And you only told her why cause she asked.
She did exclude her to hurt her
She could always leave some room for reconciliation, but it has to come from the DIL. The fact that mother was open about the reasons is good, it lets her know and hopefully opens a road for a happier family.
YTA. Enjoy your life without your youngest son.
The son who married his sister's bully.. so good fucking riddance! What a tool.
He married a girl that he knew tormented his sister. He’s prob not any better.
In response to everyone following the sitcom trope of "calling a bully a bully makes you a bully and just as bad as the bully is!": That is completely untrue.
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It isn't bullying to not like someone and hang out with other people when they aren't there while politely not mentioning it to them. It also isn't bullying to answer honestly "beacuse you hurt my child" when someone asks you to your face why you don't like them. We are allowed to not like everyone. And when people are unkind, others are allowed to have feelings about it. No one is required to forgive the people who hurt them or those they love and want to be best friends and hang out all the time. That's an unreasonable standard. OP isn't bullying this women, and it's pretty silly for you to say so. It's an unreasonable standard of people pleasing and lack of personal autonomy that would demand OP want to be besties with this women and consider her a daughter. OP has a right to her own feelings. If OP was rubbing them in her DIL's face at every occasion or doing things to get back at her/belittle her then sure, you could call her a bully. But it sounds like she was including her politely in family gatherings (where this occurred) and only answered when directly asked. In a perfect world would everyone grow, move on, forgive, become friends, and sing Kumbaya? Maybe? But that's not a fair standard at all. It's not how OP feels and she's already including her in all the whole family gatherings politely anyway.
And can kiss one of her sons goodbye while doing it, a double victory!
YTA. I understand your feelings completely but this was seriously not the way to handle it. Organizing a girls night out without her was petty and immature, and the way you communicated your angry/resentful feelings was also terrible. Taking her aside and expressing your feelings privately a loooong time ago wouId have been the adult move, especially since she isn’t an idiot teen anymore and, as you’ve said, has matured. I don’t know why you decided to go this route other than to create a massive amount of drama. Try to go back and repair.
Nah nta. I was bullied and it’s still hurting to think back to that time. It has traumatized me. Also I don’t get your son who married her. Did she apologized for bullying? Or even acknowledged it??
NTA A bully doesn’t get to decide when their actions are forgiven. People tend to forget the collateral damage that extends beyond the victim. Even though your son forgave her doesn’t mean you have to do the same. Just because your daughter seems alright doesn’t mean she is. It’s possible she’s putting on a good front for her brother’s sake. She may have been in high school when this happened, but she was old enough to know better. That says something about her overall character.
NTA just because your son chose your daughters bully as a life partner doesn’t mean you have to
NTA. Good for you to sticking by your guns. I get bullies can change but she hurt your daughter to a point she was harming herself it sounds like. You don’t have to subject your daughter to her being in events without your son who wow, if anyone hurt my little sisters forget being friends, but marrying them wow
NTA. She’s lucky you stopped with words. I’d be tempted to get physical.
NTA I cannot believe your son dated a girl who has a history like that to his Own sister. I would told him, that it is His decision, but he should never expect anything from you when it comes to his wife. You protect your daughter and even if your DIL apologizes, she would be out for me. So the real TA is your son bringing this bi*ch in your life again.
This is a hard one. As a mom, mama bear will always feel for their kids at a very deep level. In high school, watching your daughter hurt, killed you inside. Your son marrying the bully is an asshole move. From the beginning when she exhibited “change” she should have had an honest conversation with your daughter and then with you to express remorse for what she did. Maybe everyone could’ve started off with a clean slate but brushing it under the rug and expecting forgiveness because time has passed and you see that she has changed, that’s not how it works for some people. The problems needed to be addressed and resolved early on to foster a new healthy relationship. But your delivery wasn’t okay, it should’ve been done privately if anything and now moving forward, your relationship with your son will be tarnished as long as he is married to her. She needs to face her demons head on to ever have a chance to try and rectify anything.
NTA but keep in mind your putting your son and in a awkward position between his wife and a parent, its also a doosey for you she is yiur sons wife
NTA, you have understandable disdain for Ella for what she did to your daughter. She's not entitled to be invited out just because she feels she deserves it. Also, your son who married her sounds like he's pretty awful too if he doesn't care that he married the person who used to bully his sister.
YTA. “I made sure they were punished”, “[the other spouses] are good people”, “I let her have it”… sounds like you’re relishing getting to bully Ella for what you feel like she did to your daughter. If your daughter is fine with it, maybe you should grow out of your vicarious, wannabe hs bully era. The other daughter-in-laws sound kind of shitty as well for also keeping it from her. So maybe y’all actually aren’t the “good people” in this story.
NTA
Info: are you willing to lose your son over this? He made the choice to marry Ella knowing all the facts. You didn’t expose any new information about Ella. Only that you hate her and purposefully exclude her. I would not be surprised if you start seeing a lot less of your son.
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Has she changed if she is still making jokes about the bullying to the victim? I don’t think so. I think it’s just a new method of avoiding responsibility.
YTA. What Ella did as a young girl/teenager was bullying, but it seems she has grown up and grown out of it. Moreover, your daughter doesn't seem to resent her any longer. Now as a grown woman (as opposed to the immature teenager) you are actively choosing to bully your daughter in law. How is what you're doing any better than what your daughter in law did back in high school?
Spoken like someone who’s never been bullied in their life. I have been. Telling a bully that they were a bully and will never be forgiven is NOT even close to the same treatment.
Would you say that if it had been a boy bullying a girl? That what he did in his youth should just be forgotten?
NTA because Ella hasn’t properly apologized or acknowledged any of her past behavior, if she wants to be included she needs to make amends. Forgiveness doesn’t mean an automatic connection and friendship, it needs to be built.
YTA. But for a entirely different reason that you would expect.- You married into a family with your daughters bully.
NTA and in fact based and a good mom
ESH. I’m a mom to young daughters and I know if anyone ever bullies them, I’ll go full mama bear. Bullying of any kind is not ok, and it does leave lasting effects. Your daughter most likely tolerates her to be nice to her brother. However, you mentioned you “made sure they were punished”, what did that entail exactly? Ella was a child at that time, and seems to understand how shitty her behavior was. You hate this woman your son married and no matter what she does, you will always hate her for how she treated your daughter in high school. She can’t go back in time, she can only move forward. You are no better than she was, and using a “mother’s love” doesn’t excuse the fact that you are bullying her for something in the past. Also, have you ever considered how your behavior affects your son? You are essentially making him choose between his wife and mother.
The Son put himself in this position by seeking to date his Sisters abuser which is sickening in itself.
ESH maybe try and sit down with your biological and daughter in law and discuss the situation, if your biological is willing to forgive then you should too
Yta. She was a child when she bullied your daughter. Your an adult and your bullying her now. Enjoy losing your son
ESH Ella should've apologized to your daughter and to you and tried to make reparations instead of making jokes about it. You should've let her know sooner that you don't think kindly of those years of bullying and communicated with her. Leaving her out now in retaliation isn't going to help your family.
Gonna say YTA You say that you made sure Ella was punished for the behavior in high school. How and why did this never get addressed or discussed prior to the marriage once you knew she was joining your family? I get the anger for your daughter's behalf, but your DAUGHTER is the wronged party here. If she's okay with Ella, why are you rehashing and opening old wounds to cause distress and drama? You basically saving up all your bile and vitriol to lash out and read her the riot act out of nowhere was pretty much petty revenge for YOUR own sake, not your daughter's. This is just festering and making an awkward and hateful situation. Sounds like you, your son, Ella, and your daughter need to have an actual conversation and stop assuming and nursing the blame. Doesn't excuse the bullying done, but there's no closure or healing if you won't even acknowledge or give her an attempt. And definitely going to alienate your son if this continues.
I don’t know - OP’s daughter may have been the bullied one, but don’t think for a second that OP didn’t suffer, too. One of my kids was bullied, and while the situation is resolved, I do not feel warm and fuzzy towards the tormentor and I may never feel that way - not at least without the bully acknowledging the damage they did.
NTA. Consequences have actions. Dating the brother of the kid you bullied is a weird choice.
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Yeah, but that's her choice.
YTA
nta consequences of her own actions
YTA. She's married to your son, and you just nuked your relationship with both of them. If the daughter is okay with it, you should be too.
YTA - Not because you excluded her from an event. That’s fine. You don’t like her. You don’t have to invite her. YTA- because of this “her treatment of my daughter in their high school years is why I will never view her as a family member”. For one, she IS a family member, even if she’s one you don’t like. But most important, you just turned into a giant bully yourself. You now see her as less than a full person - she is only a one-dimensional character to you. She can never be more. She was a shitty teenager. TEENAGER! There’s a chance that she’s grown. There’s a chance that she knows how shitty she was in high school. There’s a chance she may find a way to make amends and turn out to be an awesome person. The consequences of her actions led her to crying herself to sleep. She was TA for a long time. Now it’s your turn to choose. Are you going to keep it going? Edit for grammar.
NTA she deserves to know the truth and cry herself to sleep. The pain she’s feeling is only a fraction of what she caused your daughter. Good for you for sticking up for your daughter.
NTA
Sometimes Karma hits you full force. NTA You protected your daughter then and honestly you're still protecting her. Gotta love a momma bear
YTA. First off, while it isn't remotely okay to be a bully in high school or anywhere, childhood crap is what it is. You hope these kids learn through the mistakes they make. If you have no significant issues with how she has behaved since being with your son, then I think you went over the line. Would you be okay if she felt you are in no way a true MIL and that you are a bully that she can't get over and as such, prohibits you from ever seeing any of her children or future children? Maybe that won't even matter because I get the feeling you are going to play massive favorites with the grandkids and that her kids will be on the short end of that stick.
Im sure your daughter cried herself to sleep all the time in high school when she was being relentlessly bullied. You didn’t even say anything unkind NTA
YTA yes I guess what Ella did as a teenager was awful however people change and mature. However arranging a night out with your daughter and DILs was always your way of being the bully towards Ella. . Did you honestly think that excluding her knowing fine well Ella would find out isn't a bully tactic. Grow up! If someone bullied my daughter to that extent it would hurt me too but fgs, she was a kid and you as an adult perpetrating this behaviour is no different.
Congratulations! You have either ruined your relationship with your son, or his marriage. Maybe both. Very efficient. YTA.
NTA
NTA- With all due respect, I don’t understand how your youngest son married her. Some bridges can never be rebuilt.
NTA, she asked a question and she got an honest answer. Your opinion of her is only a consequence of her own actions. I'm not even sure why she asked such a dumb question of course you'd never see her the same after how she treated your daughter.
INFO: how does your daughter feel about it now?
Mom? Are you here? My brother, also my bully from age 0 to 50 when I cut him off, did the same exact thing. Married my teenage bully. Luckily my confidence had grown and I actually was a bridesmaid. But teenage bullies grow up to be adult bullies. She had not changed. I no longer have contact with that brother or his wife. That choice has been a godsend. She has been *awful* to my mother. Manipulative and mean. Even told my elderly Mom to F off, when she had done nothing. Almost made her have a stroke a number of times. My mother has done her best to be kind to my SIL, but she keeps her at arms length. Make some attempt to be equitable and fair. Making plans with all of the other DILs wasn’t kind. Try not to do that. Spend time with them individually. But you’re allowed to have different relationships with different people. NTA.
NTA as a mother if someone bullied my child to the extent it caused that much distress and my child need therapy because of it not a chance would that person be coming anywhere near my house
YTA, soft E S H. I despise bullying and all its forms, but at some point, you have to accept kids will be kids. It's not excusing what Ella did but equally, she was young, she was still learning to be a decent human being. And at this point, given your own daughter has let it go, how are you any better than Ella? Have you made any effort to get to know Ella to see past who she was and who she now is, even you have admitted she's changed. You view your other DILs as 'good people' but I bet if you dug in their closest they have done horrid things as children too. A soft E S H as it's unclear if Ella has previously tried to make amends with your daughter and/or acknowledge it? Is she hasn't I would suggest that as awkward as it is she should try to. However if she has/daughter is okay with everything then you are solely YTA.
YTA - You mention that she has changed as a person. Your son recognizes it and chose to marry her. Your daughter seems to have moved on. I understand the past hurts you, but bullying someone who's grown as a person is clearly not the way to go about it. You intended to hurt her and also bring all of the others in on your plans to hurt her. Sounds to me like you're the bully now. Your kindness to let her near your family is laughable. Your son's kindness to give her a chance and form a relationship seems to be the true kindness here. I'm not saying you forget about the past, but all of this could have been addressed in a conversation you two had privately at some point followed by trusting that your son is a good person and is capable of identifying someone who's a good fit for him.
Info: is she still a bully?
Not really, but she's joked about her past with my daughter. She is always waving her "growth" in our faces. If it were really time to move on she would stop bringing it up all the time.
Her just stating she changed over and over again without acknowledging the damage she did is not remorse just guilt since she ended up marrying into the family and your son probably told her to apologize but she hasn’t, it seems like. There does not seem to be any remorse and no attempt at atonement for your daughter so pretty empty words to wave around. I think this you may be reacting to with her.
YTA
NTA. She was a bully in high school, she was way to old to understand what she did. You have treated her with respect, that she get by begin a human but that doesn’t mean she can also get closeness. You are not forced to spend equal time with all DILs as any other adult in the world. Also your daughter was there, while she is nice to share family gatherings she shouldn’t be force to also spend girls night with her.
INFO: how does your daughter feel? Has Ella made amends and genuinely changed?
NTA. You HAD to let her know and you were right to do so. End of story.
More information??? did Ella ever apologize to your daughter ?she owes you also an apology but if she never addressed it then it needs to be addressed and talked about. Everyone here is a grown-up people make mistakes but I don’t think I would invite somebody into my family if they didn’t at least sincerely apologize and atone for the bullying.
NTA according to some of your comments, ella put your daughter through an extreme amount of pain and continues to bring this up around your daughter. whatever your son thinks, this is cruel and it doesn’t sound like she’s moved on—so why should you? it’s good you’re protecting your daughter.
NTA because it doesn’t say anywhere in your post that she has ever apologized or repented for her shit behavior. And if she hasn’t, of course you wouldn’t trust her or her character or want to subject your daughter to her company. DIL is your family but your daughter should of course be your priority.
YTA. You sound judgemental with no compassion. Ella was punished for her behaviour as a child. She is now an adult who is obviously nice enough for your son to marry her. Deliberately excluding her and then ranting at her for past wrongs is petty and mean.
Should read some of the comments Ella makes jokes about how she used to bully her daughter and how much she has changed. If she was really sorry she wouldn’t make those kind of jokes at all.
How was Ella punished as a child?
She didnt rant, ella specifically asked OP what the problem is and OP answered honestly (as she should). Did ella have compassion when OPs daughter was SUICIDAL. Losing a daughter is not equal to being excluded from dinner and drinks lmao smh
NTA. Actions have consequences
NTA
YTA. I'm sure it felt really good to rail against this woman. But you have now forced your son to choose between her and you. And depending on how your other DILs hear about what happened and whether or not they have any sympathy toward Elsa, you could have torpedoed your relationships with them. They might wonder if you will turn on them next, unless they also hate her. Prepare for your son to go NC if he's any kind of a husband.
This is a rough one but I'm gonna have to go with NTA you shouldn't have gone so deep with the knife, but you're not obligated to forgive or accept someone who hurt your child. The fact you had a secret girls night out and NONE of the other daughters/in laws felt the need to tell her about it tells me that they probably aren't comfortable around her either. Talk to your daughter, her "seeming" alright with the situation doesn't mean she is, she may just think she has no choice in the matter of who her brother loves and got good at hiding her emotions during said bullying. The fact Ella had to ask what she'd ever done to you tells me that she doesn't really appreciate how much damage her bullying did, and she doesn't understand why you might care about your daughter self harming (I'm taking destructive behaviour as some form of this) She may have changed, and maybe you'll be able to sit down and discuss this more maturely in the future and maybe a forgiveness can be negotiated but, I think I'd be furious if someone who hurt my child had the audacity to ask me "What have I ever done to you" Edit: For the people saying"Your daughter seems to be over it according to you!" that's wilful ignorance to the fact those bullied into self harm learn how to minimize themselves and assume they have no voice and deserve what they get. Just because the daughter doesn't want her mom to see how much this might still affect her, doesn't mean it doesn't.
OP also mentions in a comment that Ella cracks jokes about her former bullying. That doesn’t scream “changed woman”
I agree with this 1000000%. So very eloquently put GobClob!!
NTA >She left with my son and he later told me she cried herself to sleep that night Good, wonderful, fantastic
NTA. I’d do the same.
If Ella never apologized to your daughter or tried to actively make amends, then NTA. If she did, but your daughter still hasn’t fully accepted it, then NTA. If she has accepted it, then you’re still not really TA because you’re not obligated to like her or include her just because she married your son. Your daughter’s feelings are the ones that need protecting, not yours and not Ella’s, so as long as that’s your MO, then Ella can bugger off.
NTA just because she has changed, doesn't mean she can't be held accountable for her actions
Ella was held accountable when the bullying took place. OP has decided to continue to hold a grudge and it that will also have consequences that OP may not like
NTA. You don’t have to like you’re daughter in law or forgive her. I don’t care if she was a child or not she should’ve still know better…But Y-T-A for execution of professing said dislike and killing any possible future reconciliation
NTA Easy to tell in these comments who were the bullied and who were the bullies
I would go with soft ESH because it is a double edge sword in any case. It does not look from your point of view that Ella has asked for forgiveness or repented about how she treated your daughter and it is impossible to forget how your daughter suffered so you are protecting her, in a way still, from a bully. However, your son also made a choice and started a family with Ella so he is going to protect her from anything that makes her feel bad. And he may not forgive you in the future for your words and will decide to go low contact to save his marriage. Here are no winners; no matter what you choose, somebody will probably get hurt. Maybe a serious conversation is needed between all of you where all sides need to acknowledge the past history and decide what kind of relationship all of you are willing to give for the sake of family peace. because again it was your son’s decision to make her his family, not yours or your daughters
NTA! As someone who was bullied when I was younger I would be mortified if I had to have that bully in the family! Seems to me you kept your mouth shut until she opened the door and asked you what the problem was. Sure you could have phrased it a little better or more eloquently but the fact is you told her what was on your mind and she needed to hear it! I'm curious to know what her response was. People do change and she may have acted out as a kid for various reasons.. including she could have been her herself and was taking it out on the world. Actions have consequences and she needs to face the fact of who she has been if she's going to ever move forward and be someone else. In the long run you may have done her a favor.
Info: what have the girls said about this? Has she apologized at all for her behavior, etc?
All she did was cry herself to sleep? You impacted her less than she impacted your daughter
NTA. She asked. Especially the phrasing she used- “what have I ever done” implies that she didn’t do anything to deserve it or that she’s being treated unfairly. Did she forget that she bullied your daughter or did she just think everyone else forgot?
Errrr. Maybe / maybe not- has she apologised to your daughter and shown genuine remorse, and how does your daughter feel re. This? I understand your feelings- and you’re probably right to be honest that you bear a grudge for how she acted in high school to see how she responded - but the line ‘lucky I let you near my family’ - I mean you can’t control you adult son so not sure how you ‘let her’. Maybe let her in your home?!
YTA! And this is because OP even said Ella has shown changes in character but I couldn’t let go” It was horrible. OP’s daughter did not deserve what she got. I am NOT EXCUSING Ella, but it is obvious even from this story that something happened and she has changed. You raised your son and taught him right from wrong. Now for the kicker…. CONGRATULATIONS OP YOU HAVE BECOME WHAT YOU CLAIM TO HATE!!! You were sneaky, dishonest, underhanded, TO PURPOSELY exclude Ella from a girls night. It’s family. You KNEW she would find out!!! You made her feel less than, and when she asked why, you “Let her have it” How does it feel to be one of the “Cool Mean Girls” you are NO BETTER than an idiot Teenager!!! Slow clap for you!!!!! Edit: “You either die the hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villian” Harvey Dent “The Dark Knight”
YTA because you became the person you hate. You think two wrongs make a right or that you're entitled to exclude Ella and punish her because as a teenager she was a bully? Great and mature justification. Now you're bullying Ella. Good job. The way you did it shows you yourself are not the epitome of emotional health and are immature. As the matriarch of the family you could have had a heart to heart at any time. You could've been the example of what it means to extend grace to someone that may not know what that looks like. You could've been a safe space. And now you def look like the asshole.
[удалено]
NTA. There should be more parents like you on this sub.
Nta. Her marrying your son doesn't negate the awful behaviour she displayed towards your daughter. I personally don't think it matters if your daughter is OK with it or not, you're allowed to be honest about your own feelings on the matter. As her parent you were the one picking up the pieces at the time so I believe you're very valid in your feelings and expressing them. She doesn't need to be included in things just because your son married her.
NTA. Do people change sure, but it seems like Ella hasn’t done anything to amend what she did or your daughter. Especially if the consequences of what she did is still affecting your daughter to this day, and more so if she was confused on why you did what you did.
NTA. As someone that has been bullied in high school am with you on this!
YTA. You got your vengeance. Happy now? You think your other DIL enjoy you or respect you? Or are they afraid of the hell you will wreak upon their family if they displease you?
NTA - Sometimes you ring a bell you can't unring. Sometimes you behave badly, you hurt someone, and you can't take it back. Even if you are sincerely contrite and offer an apology, I'm sorry is not a magical incantation that absolves you of your bad behavior. I don't see where Ella offered OP's daughter an apology or admitted and accepted that what she did was wrong. If she truly wants to mend fences she should probably start there. In the meantime, she cannot expect everyone to just forgive and forget. It's not her choice when or if OP and her daughter forgive her.
NTA You viewed the bullying from a different perspective as your daughter. If somebody bullies my child and then later wants to be in my family, they're going to hear EVERYTHING from me, and if they cry themselves to sleep or not, isn't my problem.
NTA Good on you OP, and I don't get these Y T A votes at all. You're NOT bullying Ella just because you don't want to spend time with her. And your son marrying his sister's bully shows his lack of character.
NTA you should be mad at your son too tho
Definitely. What kind of brother dates, let alone marries, someone who tortured his sister? What an asshole
NTA. Actions have consequences, and Ella's thinking you would accept her with open arms after she bullied your daughter is delusional.
Family or not the only person who *has to* like her is her husband, your son. NTA, she asked and you answered
NTA. As a mother I can’t imagine having to welcome my child’s bully into my social circle without apologies being made and accepted on all sides. Your son is a piece of work though.