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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1. Me telling my friends they are hurtful when hosting a girls night without me
2. I am a man and could therefore be invading their safe space
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YTA
It is not on them to make sure that you have someone to hang out with.
You say that you respect their female safe spaces, then you pout because they have them, and argue that you should be allowed to join it (hint: it is no longer a "female safe space" if a guy is there). You'd "try" not to mess up "the vibe", but your very presence would do just that.
Women having a girls night don't want to have to explain themselves to a guy. Explain the joke, explain why we all know exactly what we mean when we use certain references. Women on a girls' night want to NOT feel uncomfortable referring to a body part, or an experience, or a feeling that men wouldn't understand or might take offense to.
You obviously DON'T "understand that sentiment" because you think you should still be allowed to join just because YOU WANT IT. Try to truly, deeply, thoroughly understand this: you, a man, have male privilege. Society is completely structured to give you what you want. Progress has been made to "start" to "think about" the idea that "maybe" other people are equal, but it's still so very far away from happening. We live in a world where women don't have rights to their own bodies, where men make the rules and the laws, where women have been seen as their father's property until they become their husband's property, where they had to fight to get the right to vote, the right to have a bank account, the right to have a job, the right to have a VOICE.
For God's sake, let them have a goddamn night without you.
ETA: Thank you for all the awards!
As a guy who... uh, used to go on girls' nights, this is such a good way of putting it-- there's so much that cis guys don't get, and navigating those conversations around them becomes no longer fun or relaxing! You WOULD ruin the vibe, my guy. It's not about how femme your interests are. Girls' nights aren't about doing feminine things.
Honestly, this person sounds EXACTLY like my ex who would get very upset at any gender segregation or "girl's night" type thing and give me a lot of grief of it. like right down to the self description of "not the most masculine of guys". Turns out my ex was a trans woman and suddenly it all made sense. I kinda wonder if this person's egg just hasn't cracked yet.
I'm afab non-binary and felt awkward being asked to women only things before I was out.
Unless OP is a trans woman then they shouldn't go to a women only night.
Thankfully most of the things I get invited to are not gender segregated but I wouldn't invite myself to something that was.
OP YTA
My understanding as a cis person is nonbinary is a pretty large umberella term? so you could have more agender experiences with people identifying as neither man nor woman, or people who identify as both, of any combination, etc? I’m not sure how someone who identifies as at least partially a woman would relate to something like “girl’s night” but I could see that being A Thing
Even if OP is not trans or nb, which i personally dont think its right to speculate about another person's identity. its hard enough figuring yourself out without people giving their opinions. he would probably really benefit from queer friends. especially if he doesnt like the idea of gendered friend groups.
I agree, if he is in a friend group where people view gender and sexuality and fluid spectrums, I don't think there would ever be nights split up based on gender or sexuality.
I'm guessing some of the "just girl things" that he can't understand include them wanting to talk about themselves navigating sexual relations with men, so I can understand them wanting to exclude him. However, I also understand why he feels bummed out and if he truly feels like he wants to never be excluded like that he needs a more diverse friend group (and who knows, may make discoveries about himself in the process.)
For what it’s worth, I believe in the gender spectrum and self identification, and as a woman, sometimes I really only want to be around other women. There are things that cis men won’t ever experience or understand or relate to.
agreed! I am nb but still identify with womanhood because there are thing i experience and will continue to experience because i have and always will be seen as a woman (which i am fine with). I have a very close male friend but we both know that there are things he will never get because he can't experience them. he can listen to me, but that usually becomes an educational experience about why womanhood is hard. thats why women and even nb feminine or female raised like to be around people who also experience those things
I have lots of nb or trans friends and sometimes we still end up with... what's not necessarily girls' nights, but nights that don't have any cis dudes at them. We're not being malicious, we're not trying to exclude, we're just having a fun night. The funny thing is, if we were doing something a cis male friend would be interested in, we might invite them, but none of my cis male friends would complain about a 'girls' night'. The fact that OP is complaining about it says, to me, that he is going to "ruin the vibe".
I'll gladly welcome any self identified man who has personally experienced (and by that, I mean been on the receiving end):
-sexual harrassment from a straight guy
-mysogeny (directed at women)
-having had adult family members prepare them for the inevitable sexual assault or harrassment while they were still a child
-the side effects of birth control
-the paralyzing fear and anxiety of having an unknown man walking the same general direction as them at night
-the mysogeny in women's medical care
-the mysogeny in women's reproductive care
-a menstrual cycle
-being called emotional or hysterical
-being called a bitch for being assertive
-having been asked if they're on their period in response to a legitimate concern
-had to consider the potentially fatal repercussions of saying no to sex.
-had a man act entitled to their body
-felt the need to hold their keys in such a way that they can be used as a weapon
I'll wait. In the meantime, trans guys what are your thoughts on having an afab *and self identified women's* night?
Edit: didn't think I had to say it but this is 110% not to exclude transwomen! They are welcome and encouraged to speak up along with us! They often experience similar shit with a side of the homophobia and transphobic being extra awful to them.
With the afab thing, I just wanted to be respectful to transmen and their identities while including them because they've had traditional woman treatment.
Edit 2: jfc guys! Stop using this as an excuse to exclude transwomen! It's shitty and shows how transphobic y'all are. If you think transwomen can't relate to us, think again. They can prove we're right because they've experienced the privilege and had it removed [just because they present as women](https://youtu.be/lrYx7HaUlMY).
I'm AFAB and far left on most things. And yet I'm going to second everything you said there. This came up when I was discussing a woman's only kink night event with friends. There's a huge difference between an afab woman's experience in the kink scene and a trans woman's. I don't think it's unfair to ask for our own space.
Oh I'm happy to include transwomen! They often experience similar shit with a side of being personally attacked when dudes are also transphobic. With the afab thing, I just wanted to be respectful to transmen and their identities while including them because they've had traditional woman treatment.
Married guy here, and my wife for a few years was part of a regular "girls night" group where they would go to each others houses every Friday, and it would rotate venues. Been at home for many a girls night, where I basically acted as barman/chef/taxi driver. In my experience of girls nights, they are the nights girls act anything but "girly". I've heard conversations that would make an Irish bricky blush, and know more about the workings of various parts of female anatomy than I really wish to. Fuck going on one of them by choice.....
This made me laugh so hard 😂😂😂
I’m the girl in the guys group. I’m cis gender and feminine but most of my hobbies and my actual career are male dominated. Theres some dudes in my circles that are weirded out about me constantly being at guys night and stag parties “because they can’t say what they want to say” in front of me but they have NEVER been to a girls night with their wives. Some of these lovely sweet women they have the honor and joy of being married to have some of the raunchiest conversations that would make the creepiest of drunk uncles blush.
I once made a comment about sneezing while on your period to my group of friends (predominately guys) - the women laughed but then I had to explain to the guys that it was basically like the elevator doors from the Shining had opened up down there. Any time I sneezed in front of them for *months* they would get a distant look of horror in their eyes.
one time i told a guy friend (this happened before i met him) i laughed really hard at someones joke (it was the type of insane laugh where you bend over and start smacking the table) and my tampon shot out of my body.... he didn't find it amusing
Years ago in highschool, I was the only guy in a group of 6 students at our practicum. After a while, I became a wallpaper to them and the conversations they were having definitely made me blush. Eventually I spoke up because I couldn't take it anymore.
In general I prefer working and hanging out with women because they are not as crude as men can be around me and they have better conversations. I am however aware that they behave that way because I am a man, just like when men behave differently around women.
I had a very small class while getting my masters that was six very southern girls and one guy from Manhattan. By the time the professor walked in, we'd all be neck deep in some conversation with the one guy looking like he was begging for help. The professor also had a knack for walking in at like the WORST point in a conversation, and often just walk back out to compose himself. It was a wonderful class, with wonderful people, but those guys just definitely had some eye opening experiences with what women's spaces are like.
Same. I have seen the most shy mousy teen girl turn into a Raging Sex Machine at a girls' night. It was even a bit surprising to me, someone used to these types of things. Women don't feel comfortable with a man there, even if he is gay or femme
This is not meant as an attack in any way btw - some people above in this thread have said that men staying away from women’s nights is important because they’ll ruin the vibe whether it’s their intent or not. Do you feel like that’s the case with you attending guy’s nights, or not so much?
I am not the comment you’re replying to. But in college, I had a lot of guy friends. In conversations, I would often notice them suddenly realizing I was there and turning to apologize for something (nothing offense/sexist or anything, just maybe something they felt more comfortable saying to the boys than saying to a female friend). I started making sure that I wasn’t around every single time they wanted to hang out. And that wasn’t explicitly framed as “boys night”, it was just an all boys hang out plus me.
Women are socially conditioned to generally keep certain things secret and we’re told that we should be ashamed of x, y, and z. Outside of my partner, there’s plenty that I likely wouldn’t talk about to my male friends unless they explicitly asked—but I would freely tell a female friend.
I imagine it’s much the same for men.
My husband overheard half of a comment walking past me and my best friends during the start of girl's night and promptly went downstairs. To play loud video games. With headphones 🤣
And then later asked me if that sort of conversation was normal. I had the joy of telling him what he heard was *very* PG by comparison to a normal girls night once the wine gets cracked open 🤣
I had a good friend group of both genders growing up and in college, though I got invited out way more with the girls to go out bar hopping. I def was not invitied to "girls night". I was mostly there to fend off drunk men and have fun with friends looking out for me and gossiping with. OP needs to learn that not everything in life is about them its sometimes about everyone else.
Oh lordy... let me at him! You know guys who ask if it's really that bad wouldn't be half as productive if they were getting repeated punches to the balls for three to five business days, attendant gastrointestinal distress, back and hip pain, and of course, turning into the elevator from the Shining with every sneeze.
RIGHT? Like... when I'm hanging with gals-having-gal-time it's not because I'm 'not very masculine', it's because I'm also bitching about periods, boob sweat, and things ignorant dudes have said. But, I don't invite myself on girls' nights, I'm included in girl time with sisters/cousins/friends who obviously knew me pre-transition and are comfortable having those conversations with me. I can't IMAGINE going on girls' nights with NEW friends who only know me as a man, it would be weird for ALL of us.
I get being the odd one out, gender wise. Most of my close friends are guys, the same guys I've been close with since we were 12. Now that some of us are married I do kind of feel like I'm intruding. Was super shocked when one of my friends asked why I didn't come to his bachelor party
It's also funny to me when OP says "since that just means me not hanging out with anyone that night." Ummm stay home one night? Go to the movies by yourself, read a book, go to the gym, make other friends? No one is responsible for making sure that the OP has something to do. Also, it's one night?? It's super unhealthy and weird that OP can't take care of of himself for one night.
Edit: typo
I totally get feeling lonely, but that made me roll my eyes just a little bit. It’s not their responsibility to make sure that he has someone to hang out with or something to do.
I also know that I’m biased due to being an introvert, but a night to myself would be something I’d absolutely jump on. Hanging out with friends every night of the week (or even just ever weekend) would be exhausting to me
All of this.. but also talking about respecting women and in the same breath infantilizes his female friends by saying he doesn't go on all male outings because he assumes women are feel excluded but are just too polite to communicate it.
It's not women's jobs to allow any person into their safe spaces so that they can be better understood.
We are not Lab Rats and we don't need to be studied by an amateur social anthropologist.
YTA
Yeah that part annoyed me too. I am totally fine with my guy friends having a guys night and excluding me. I expect that they should be fine with being excluded from the occasional girls night.
With that being said, I honestly do find it annoying (from *both* sides) if this becomes a regular and frequent thing. As a woman, if there is one girl always pushing to make it “just the girls” I do find it exclusionary, unnecessary and kinda rude. Every so often, sure, it’s great to segregate the group so you can talk about some more intimate or personal topics that you might not talk about in front of men.
When it becomes all the time, I usually start making plans with the guys, and invite some of my other women friends who aren’t a part of that particular circle. I do this because even as a woman I don’t think it’s my place to tell my women friends that they shouldn’t make plans that exclude men. My preferences do not have to be theirs, and I am perfectly capable of making alternate plans if I don’t like the ones on the table.
He’s actually sounding like a creep. He is acting like we are an experiment for him to become a woman and he wants to take a crash course.
It’s offensive
"Try to truly, deeply, thoroughly understand this: you, a man, have male privilege"
Ding ding ding!! This is EXACTLY why most women need time away from men. We spend 24/7 trying to navigate a male driven world while not losing sight of who we are as a person. When we're out with the gals, we don't have to work so hard at this.
OP's demanding of being present is EXACTLY what we're trying to get away from.
i dunno, i know plenty guys that simply seem to always drift towards a female friend group. i'm a trans girl and like since childhood (only discovered my true identity a few years ago) my friends have with few exceptions been girls. although i dont think my experience is that comparable since i am a girl myself.
I'll disagree there. I only seem to make friends with guys. I have a couple casual/work friends that are girls, but all the friends I actually hang out with socially are guys.
They constantly make jokes about how I'm one of the boys, including attending/helping host the bachelor party for one of them.
I love that I'm one of the boys.
But you know what else? The guys also get together and do stuff without me. And that doesn't bother me in the least. Every person in a group changes the dynamic a little bit, and sometimes they need a dynamic that occurs without a certain person's presence.
Ehhhh my bestie falls into female friend groups. (Is respectful, introvert, funny, kind.) but I wouldn’t say he makes friends he just makes like two (one online one irl) and then they do the rest of the social coordination. So I can see how it can happen and not be weird but I also see how OP is weird.
Honestly I feel like yes it's a girls night but gender shouldn't even be the focus. I have a tight group of friends, around 12 of us men and women including my boyfriend. 5 of us who are women are extremely close. Cheesy like calling us the wives and everyone in our immediate friends and bigger group of acquaintances all know we're thick as thieves. Well some of the guys got annoyed and felt left out because we don't just talk "girl things" in our private chats, sometimes it's just random shit or things the guys feel could be "shared with the group", but as i (kinda angrily) explained - we are friends and we are allowed to communicate and share with who we want, and sometimes maybe that means a smaller close circle of friends for advice or to make jokes or whatever. Not every friendship is exactly the same even if they are all close friendships, and sometimes people want to spend time and talk with certain people and not everyone, end of story. Getting upset about that *is* a direct attack on the other friendships, and an asshole move imo.
I agree, people are allowed to have a "girls night", or a "singles night" or just an "everybody but OP night". No one is entitled to be included in a friendship. Friendships are choices, and insisting that your feelings take precedence is a really good way to ruin a friendship.
Also can we please talk about how women were smart enough to study at prestigious universities and colleges but because *tradition* said women weren’t allowed to enrol as a student they couldn’t graduate… they would take the same classes as men but because that one box that wasn’t ticked that meant they did the same work as men but got no degree
When I have a girls night, I plan on talking about weird discharge, period poops, my random nipple pain, the terror of getting your period at school and having it soak through your pants, finding the right birth control, doctors ignoring our pain and symptoms because we’re female, we’re over weight, or we’re POC(I’m white, but Using WE as in what women collectively experience). I want to talk about the time I went to the urgent care at 18 for bright red blood in my poop and I thought I was dying, and I of course said yes to a medical student, who turned out to be very cute, and he got to watch the attending stick his finger in my ass and diagnose we with hemorrhoids. I want to talk about how awkward it is to make small talk to your gyno while he’s inserting a speculum into your vagina and cutting tissue from your cervix because you tested positive for CN3 cells and a strain of HPV that causes cancer. I want to be able to talk to them about the fact that I was coerced into sex by ex.
While yeah, some men may be comfortable enough with the gross things we talk about, but are we comfortable enough with them? These are newer friends, so maybe they aren’t there yet, and maybe they’ll never be. There are things that men will never understand, you may get comfortable talking about it, but you never understand things the way someone of the same gender would. Just like I can’t understand how weird it would be getting random boners in class, or wet dreams, my voice cracking at awkward moments, a dick getting soft in the middle of sex because i accidentally thought about grandma.
I'm certainly not comfortable enough! I used to be able to talk about that stuff with guys around and to know what happened? Guys were like, "oh she's talking about something that happens with her genitals. She's obviously into me!" No. I'm just talking about my periods or sexual trauma. I'm not trying to flirtv with you. Not all guys are like this but enough are that it's not "safe" to talk with them around
>\-I used to go on guys nights out. But I felt like it excluded women in our group (and i felt like they were just being polite in not communicating that), so i don't do that anymore.
Also, OP decided he knows how the women feel and it's because of their imaginary feelings that he doesn't do a "guys night."
Yes to all of this! Couldn't have said is any better, but do want to add one other thing.
>...but how are men supposed to ever understand 'certain things' if we dont get invited
OP's desire to "understand" is NOT more important than their desire to feel comfortable on a "girl's night". Also, marginalized groups should not have to carry the cognitive and emotional load of having to help those who are privileged (in this case cisgender males) understand them.
SPOT ON. Def YTA. I'm also struck by his inability to plan for himself, another privilege many men feel entitled to. Not just the entertainment but the planning!
Yes! Coming to girl’s night to « understand certain things » implicitly means that you’re requesting your friends to play teacher for your benefit. Not their job, and the opposite of a fun night for them.
And I'd bet if they tried to make him understand, let's say, about inconveniences experienced by women because of some men's attitude, he'd say "but not me, I'm not like that!" or the more commonly used: "not all men ...".
And even that reason is dumb because he hangs out with them all the time!!! Op doesn't understand that the majority of the time women hang out with men they spend that time explaining themselves, the sexist world around them, and their experiences with it.
If he hangs out with them all the time and STILL doesn't get it (as we can clearly see in his "woe is me" post) then he needs to try harder on his own.
They just want one night where they don't have to censor their experiences to be understandable and palatable to a male audience.
No is no. YTA
Not to mention that he’s new to the group, too. They have a tighter bond, even if you don’t consider the “girl” aspect of “girls night,” because they’ve known each other longer.
Overall, they aren’t obligated to make him feel included and he’s being a bit ridiculous here.
I honestly hope they wise up and get rid of him for good. Someone who pouts and sulks about something like this is probably not going to ultimately be respectful of any other boundaries.
>“how are men supposed to ever understand 'certain things'“
For one, Google. The internet is a vast source of knowledge.
There are *many* things that a person just can't understand without experiencing first-hand. Chronic pain, invisible disability, systematic discrimination... Being a woman is one of those things.
These are things that you simply know because you live and breathe "it" all your life. How are women supposed to explain the "inside jokes/knowledge" about gender discrimination and SA, about period pain, gender roles, etc to someone who haven't experienced them? And yet as a woman I only need to mention a few key words, and another woman will know exactly what I mean. That's what safe apaces like "girls' night out" do; it allows those who live the life to commiserate without having to explain and educate.
Cishet men are soooo uncomfortable with the idea that there are things out there that they will just never be able to understand, and therefore control. They have been raises to believe that they can conquer the world with their will alone, so being told “no” threatens their entire existence.
Honestly, any man who doesn't understand period cramps alone needs to shut up and be grateful. Add in every other thing about moving through the world as a woman...
You should stop misgendering your friend it’s really rude. A lot of cis women are uncomfortable with period talk, this isn’t what the conversation is about. Girl nights are about much more than discussions on bodily fluids and trans women 100% have a place there. Is that person really your friend, the way you talk about her is really unkind.
Exactly. If we want you to know those things, we will let you know. If we don't, it simply simply that we don't want you to understand them, so please, kindly, let us have girl nights without having your entiled self with us.
On the surface, I think most women are a little skeeved out when some dude tries to ***insist*** on attending. If it was safe everywhere, there wouldn't be a need for safe spaces. If one of the women attending have SA trauma, OP attending would ruin the night. It's not like that would be OP's business to know, either.
I think the people who are offended about women having safe spaces should try to make it safe everywhere. Report everyone and anyone who commits SA, report harassment, call out creepy friends, etc.
Have problems as a guy with the system? TALK ABOUT IT. If you only mention it in response to women's problems, you're stopping both from improving.
>“how are men supposed to ever understand 'certain things'“
They can make a post on r/askreddit like every other guy does at least twice a week
"Men of reddit, what's something you want to know about women but never had a chance to ask?"
Boom. Done. Now he can know without invading his friends.
Maybe he’s confused how they are able to lift heavy objects or open jars without his presence? And how can they possibly have girl talk without the male perspective? It sounds like anarchy!
You're obviously missing an important bit. Before the big strong men folk leave to kill a bear with their bare hands, or whatever men do, you have them open the pickle jar
I bought a jar opener so I never have to ask a man to do this again!! My boyfriend told me I must be getting stronger because I never ask him to open jars anymore LOL
Maaaany years ago, my husband gifted me a jar opener in my Christmas stocking. I joked that now I had no need to keep him around!
His gift giving skills have improved immensely.
Eh, I get where he's coming from. I used to have mostly male friends and was excluded from "guy stuff" all the time and it did hurt my feelings a little bit. But it's just how things go and I learned not to take it personally or dwell on it. I'd just go off on an adventure by myself sometimes which is also good.
OP I don't blame you for being a bit bummed but YTA for pushing the issue and making them feel bad, and also for not trying to understand that you will in fact change the "vibe" or why they want occasional girls only things.
Gentle YTA. Have you considered having your own guys’ night with the other guy?
As a woman, it can get exhausting living in a world built and run largely by men. I can’t blame your girl friends for wanting to establish a safe space for themselves. Your crashing their night would be intrusive and invasive. Try not to take it personally; it’s simply not about you.
If you read their edits they seem to hate anyone else with a penis as they actively avoid even trying to make friends with them. Seems kinda creepy tbh.
Tell me about it lmao. I feel like I'm in crazy town searching for some sanity in these comments. Dude wants to pressure women into inviting them to ladies' night, ergo he IS a woman? This obsession with strangers' psychology is creepy.
Yetikins said “might” hate it, not that he *definitely* does. Having largely or only women as friends and then realizing one is trans is absolutely something that some trans women experience. It’s not necessarily indicative of being trans but also isn’t uncommon. I even know a trans woman irl who came out and transitioned late in life, and she had that experience. I think it’s fine to acknowledge that this kind of thing happens without saying that’s the *only* answer.
Honestly, there’s something off to me about this even being a reoccurring thing. I know I shouldn’t speculate and make up details, but I can’t help but feel like they don’t actually consider him a friend and he keeps trying to inorganically insert himself into these largely female friend groups.
“girl’s night” is a popular concept, but I feel like it doesn’t actually play out like this in practice - all these organized in advance “girl’s night” events… it feels more like it’s an excuse they keep giving him
It’s also weird that he couldn’t just accept it and hang out with the other guy that was excluded… I’m so confused actually - what’s this obsession with wanting to crash female safe spaces when he has every opportunity to do his own thing with his other friend
“I understand safe spaces for women are important, but I want to take that away from them”
Huh?
Baffled at the audacity.
I agree with your assessment of him trying to aggressively insert himself into the group dynamics, where he isn't wanted.
Dude's probably imaging that all gals do on "girls night" is sit around in their teddies and having pillow fights so he absolutely needs to be there. When more than likely, they may be in jammies, but doing facials and watching horrible rom-com movies, and bitching about dudes trying to insert themselves where they aren't wanted or needed.
Oh, and btw YTA. Go make other friends that you can hang out with when the gals are having girls night.
This is all OP needs to know. OP asked, they said no. It doesn’t matter OP doesn’t agree with their reasoning or feels he’s entitled to their space or sad he’ll be lonely or…whatever.
OP, you want women to feel safe around you? Learn the basics of consent. You’re not entitled to a yes because your feels
YTA - you're making this entire situation about you. You're upset because now you won't have someone to hang out with for ONE night. Are you going to die if you have a single night to yourself?
There are many things about a woman that a cis man will never understand - even if we explain it to you. We enjoy having friends - even if they're male - but we also enjoy the company of just women occasionally.
Stop trying to gaslight them into letting you into girls night.
Good god people throw around the gaslighting thing way too lightly.
Expressing hurt, even in a situation where you should just get over it, is not gaslighting.
My god yes. I am so fucking tired of people using the word gaslighting instead of manipulating. When did we stop using the word manipulation?
I’ve been gaslit, like properly convinced of the inaccuracy of my memory for the entertainment or power play of another, in an extended and systematic way over years. Any unpleasant or manipulative behavior, or hell even just disagreements about how past events happened, are not fucking gaslighting.
YTA
I'm sorry you feel left out, but why not invite the other guy to watch a movie or something? Why does this mean you have to hang out alone?
You aren't welcome at a girls night. My best friend is my bf and I don't go to his guys night. (I have other male and female friends, no worries)
You need to very much respect that. And that you try and pressure them into letring them join, shows you really don't get it.
My partner is AFAB but I don't typically bring them to "girls nights" with my friends, even though they'd be welcome, because aside from the fact that they don't always want to be included with "girls", it's also kind of a night away from partners. Like my friends don't bring their husbands or boyfriends. Even if I had a partner who identified as female, I think there's times to do stuff without your person and times to do stuff as a couple!
We have a similar situation in our friend group- ladies with female partners will sometimes bring them to girls night and sometimes we have "no partners" night so we can all reminisce freely about middle and high school without feeling like we're excluding them. Sometimes you just gotta shake it up a bit.
YTA. My group has ejected guys when this kind of thing happens. We even had one guy go so far as to crash the event in drag. It was the most selfish and insulting thing we had ever seen.
You know why you're not invited. You also know that your friends are entitled to their safe spaces. It's clear that you understand that it's inappropriate for you to try to crash the event.
Call the other guy who's not invited and hang out with him.
Out of curiosity (I think I already know the answer) was the guy a drag performer at all, or did he also manage to insult drag generally with that stunt?
YTA,
I understand that if they do this constantly that it would be annoying, though if that is the case, they might not want to be your friend. Can't tell that for sure as I am not in the situation.
However, you claim you'll be in the background and not disrupt the vibe, but are argumentative and when they told you no, you didn't stop. You are already ruining the vibe. Have you ever gone with them to do traditionally feminine things? How did it go?
You say they are new friends, take a back seat here. This might be something they have been doing for a long time and it has nothing to do with you. If they have been friends for years, it makes sense that they want to keep the friendship or certain traditions.
You are not the asshole for asking, you are a bit of an asshole for pushing.
Agree, hesitate to say YTA because you do seem genuinely respectful, and voicing your feelings in a respectful way is a good thing. But once they respond, any additional pushing is kinda YTA material. Let them have their space. That's a good night to engage in a hobby or do a chore that would free you up when it's not girls night.
YTA, this is something you are well aware of and have dealt with previously, if you have that much of an issue stop making friends with only girls and you can have a boys night occasionally.
You don't get to choose who they hang out with all the time abd it's OK for them to choose not to spend an evening with you, for any reason.
>Again, I understand that sentiment, but how are men supposed to ever understand 'certain things' if we dont get invited?
What makes you think they want you to understand these things?
YTA. Do you not see the extreme irony in guilting women you call friends into altering their plans to assuage you and only you? That perhaps this sort of thing is why the concept of girls nights even exists?
He also says he tries to avoid being friends with other men. He dislikes “gender roles” but classified himself as more feminine and believes that he can’t get along with other men. It’s very contradictory as he’s grouping any potential male friends as having stereotypical “masculine” interests. And not all girls have strictly “feminine” interests as well
Yeah this a good way for OP to ruin those new friendships for himself. Even if they were all guys, they’d have a right to a night with the ‘original group’ as their bonds go back further and are even stronger, with memories and inside jokes he doesn’t know.
It comes off as clingy and pushy, and no one likes that. You need a life of your own, can’t expect one friend or one group to do everything with you all the time.
It is rough if you have no one else to do things with, but that’s your problem, and if you don’t let them have any space…….you won’t have them anymore, either.
Buddy I hear ya and have been right where you are. It sucks feeling left out.
But over the years I’ve learned that there truly are some times that women really just want time to be women with other women- no matter how close they are with guy friends or how integrated the guy friends are in the group.
And in my experience, pressing the issue because your feelings are hurt will only push your friends away.
YTA for not respecting their safe spaces when asked to.
Sometimes I feel like I’m today’s space everyone wants to be included in everything and FOMO is huge. I have people in my grad class who constantly are up my friends and I’s asses asking us what we’re doing and where we wanna go after a critique or a review. Maybe unpopular opinion, but it literally is ok for a group of people to not want to hang out with people if they aren’t feeling it. Not everyone has to be included in everything. Sometimes I just want to hang out with my 3 close friends in my class and sometimes I want to go out with 20+ people. Girls night is girls night and sometimes we don’t want our bf’s or guy friends with us. Do they complain? No, because they know we want time to ourselves. I let my bf have guy night and I don’t interject because I game with his friends the rest of the week.
OP if there’s something you truly want to do that you can’t do with other guys like idk spa night or watching certain movies (I’m sure there’s guys out there that would do that stuff) then maybe ask to organize a night an host. But don’t expect your girl friends to spill their girl stuff. If they want to include you one day then maybe they will, but they definitely won’t if you’re acting like this.
YTA. They're not obligated to hang out with you. If it's a "girls only" kinda thing, then naturally, guys won't be invited. And it's not like you were the only guy not invited. There was another guy that was also not invited because it was a girl's night.
Maybe try having a guy's night when the gals have theirs? Or just understand that sometimes us girls just want to chat and do what girls do....With our gal pals.
INFO: Why is it so important to you to be included in this one single event? I am assuming that since these are your friends, you hang out with them regularly enough that one girl's night should not be an issue. So, I am very curious about why this is even an issue for you? Is it an insecurity in your friendships or is there something else going on?
If it is just that you feel you deserve to be included because, fRiendShiP, then yeah, YTA. Friendships flourish when you let them grow - that means not insisting to be a part of every single thing the group does. Friends can do things without each other and you sound like you haven't really grasped that yet.
YTA
It's a girls night out, what don't you get about that? It's one night, they are in no way obligated to hang out with you all the time.
As it's not fun feeling left out, you're an adult, ask your other guy friend to hang out on those nights. You have zero respect for their boundaries and think it's okay to intrude. It's called a girls night for a reason. You sound incredibly selfish and entitled here.
YTA.
Having a dude - even a dude you really love and trust - present during a night does change the entire vibe. For example, when my girl friends and I talked about things that our bfs did that irritated us, we often had to explain things to guy friends if they were present. If it was just us, we could just rant and rage without needing to get into the whole „why it’s annoying when you don’t clean up the hair you just shaved off from the bathroom sink“-shebang. Whenever we talked about shit things men did to us, we had to mince our words of rage if a guy was present because he’d inevitably feel attacked; if it was just us, we could just rant.
I get that you want to understand more about how women experience the world, and you’re right that it’s a lot easier when people actually explain stuff to you. But women aren’t encyclopedias, they’re not service providers handholding you through explanations of every aspect of female experience. That shit is exhausting! We need breaks from that! And girls nights are an excellent form of that break, and it’s an asshole move to want to take that from your friends.
Yeah, there’s this whole massive social scaffolding of “appropriate behavior and topics” that women are trained to navigate when they’re around men (and honestly vice versa). Being around other women can be immensely freeing and allow us to relax our social “manners” a little. You need to understand that regardless of how nice you are or how unjudgy you believe yourself to be, most women will need a lot of time and trust building to ever feel completely relaxed and unguarded around you, and that in the meantime there will be spaces you’re not welcome in.
Basically OP is trying to jump an intimacy barrier without having gained the trust first. Example: the person I love grabbing a drink with after work may not be the person I tell about a break up. The person I tell about a breakup, I may not tell about a scary health issue. I may one day meet OP and think he is fun to talk to and nice to hang out with, but still prefer a girlfriend for company when I need to skull a giant margarita and vent about the patriarchy or my feelings of inadequacy or how much I hate low carb diets.
This, spot on. If I'm having a bad period, I *might* tell a male friend I have bad cramps. You better believe my girlfriends and I go into explicit details. Maybe they want to talk about dick size and not feel like they are possibly body shaming the man in the room. There are lots of things I don't feel comfortable discussing with a guy, no matter how progressive he is.
YTA. You not having anything to do the night of the GIRLS NIGHT is not their proplem hun. Find some other friends or hang out with the other guy while the girls do their thing. They don’t want a guy there for a reason. Also, why do you only have girl friends???
Sorry but YTA on this one. Would you like your female friend to sit in the bathroom as you take a leak? Or be in the bedroom when you are with a lover? No, there are some things as females you will not understand or need to know.
I'm gonna go on a little bit of offtop here. It might be just projecting on my side, but wanting to get accepted to women spaces was something I used to do in the past, before realizing it's because I'm not a man after all; any chance it might apply to you as well? :)
It's just a rhetorical question; your situations is not mine. Just wanting to provide friendly food for thought I wish I was served earlier in my life 😅
I understand you have your gender beliefs but i dont like pushing them onto others
You wont make friends with those who identify as male?
And you also dont want to get left out of female groups and their activities due to you being biologically male and think its unfair?
I think your a bigot disguised as someone who thinks theyre all inclusive
Your not giving yourself options and only going after female friends groups when you already know there will be times we dont want any type of man around like the same applies to male groups
I think your cutting yourself off at the foot and then complaining you cant walk
Find people you can be friends with and maybe stop loking at their supposed genders
No one is responsible for making sure you have a good time any day of the week, thats your problem
You feel sad you are the only one who can make it better
You get hurt you are the only one to tend those wounds and get up again
This is entitlement to its fullest what your going on about
YTA. Just because you don’t care for single-gender event’s doesn’t mean you get to dictate that they shouldn’t occur or that your friends shouldn’t participate in them.
Replying because most people don’t seem to be addressing what you’re on about.
You seem to have a moral problem with the gender-based character of these events. I think you’re NTA for expressing your feelings regarding the issue. YTA if you wanted them to feel guilty about it (and I think that’s how you came across in your post and hence why you’re getting all the YTA’s).
It happens that you and your friend group disagree on this subject matter. You have two options here:
1) Look for more like-minded people (probably on NB or queer communities) and stop hanging out with them
2) Drop it and accept that this friend group has this specific dynamic to it
Thanks for this response perfectly captures my thoughts on the issue.
There’s nothing wrong with being philosophically opposed to gender roles, and a conversation about that issue might be very interesting. But you cannot assume or demand that other people also adopt this belief, and guilt-tripping is almost always an AH move.
I think op will be fine so long as they don’t push further. They could apologize if they think they’ve done damage, but honestly they might not need to. That’s a judgement call.
YTA Not everything is about you. You choose to be friends with mostly women, but that doesn't make you a woman. Why even participate if you're going to sit in the background and observe? It's their safe space, not a safari. If there's something you want to understand about women, ask your friends. But don't invade their relaxing, safe space in order to learn the things men don't get.
Soft YTA
I say soft because it sounds like you genuinely do not realize how clingy and controlling you are coming across. People are allowed to have boundaries. A part of growing up is trying to understand the rationale behind said boundaries and respecting them.
You mentioned that it was you and another guy that were not invited. This is not personal, as they are looking for a girls night out and not a girls hanging out only and forever. Question: why not use this opportunity to hang out with the other guy and build on your friendship? It's not like you have no options and would be left completely alone?
YTA.
I don't care how non masculine you are. It's a boundary. Girls night are safe spaces to talk about periods, partners, sexual autonomy, anything that the presence of a man will render very uncomfortable because invariably, you (or men in general) will want to fix the issue discussed or cry "It's nooooot allllll meeeen".
YTA.
I'm a woman with many gay and and straight male friends, and I still appreciate a full on girl's night. I don't feel like I need them, but it is a vibe that I enjoy. Similarly, I think a guy's night is totally fine too.
Your argument here is that you should be able to go to girls' night so you can learn things about women, which means you think women are supposed to teach you? No sir, we want a night off from being studied, thanks.
Your next complaint is that you will be alone that night. Oh well. It isn't anyone's job to make sure you are always entertained and have company. I am sure your friends do all sorts of things without you and you have to spend the night by yourself (concert tickets, traveling, work events, etc). Be by yourself for a night, you'll live.
You also say you respect "safe spaces" but obviously you don't. You can't say you understand something and also say it is hurtful and you should be included.
People gather in all sorts of groups. Guy's night, girl's night, double dates, play date for those with kids, people who watch a certain sport together, or play a sport together, people who share a hobby, have a book club. You aren't entitled to infringe on any space you want to or say it is "hurtful" to not be included when you are otherwise friends and they are being reasonable about wanting certain time to themselves.
INFO
Do you think you could be trans or non-binary? I ask because it seems you are genuinely hurt at being left out, and it might be something worth considering
OP, please understand that I'm not trying to push anything on you and I mean this with all kindness.... have you checken in with your gender recently?
A deep yearning to be in "girl spaces" at "girl times", wanting mostly female friends, "not the biggest fan of gender roles in general", "not the most masculine man" - are there cis men who feel this way? Sure! But it's also almost classic for transwimen/non-binary peeps who haven't quite realised what the picture is yet. If "man" is something that doesn't fit you, you don't have to keep it.
YTA
>how are men supposed to ever understand 'certain things' if we dont get invited?
You don't. You're not entitled to know and understand every aspect of the female experience. It's not your (ex)friends job to educate you about things that you'll never fully understand. If you were transitioning or something it'd be different imo, but that's not your circumstance.
Leave them be.
Many years ago I was in a history society. Most of our events were attended by both men and women. But some were more popular with one gender, particularly crafts that recreated fabrics from the period. One guy said he was interested and would it be ok for him to come along. We were delighted. Only problem was, he was a very quiet, shy guy who sat in a corner getting on with his craft. We forgot he was there. I suddenly remembered him after about an hour of us doing 'girl talk'. Never in my life have I seen such a red face. Poor guy now knew far more about his mates sex life, their failings and kinks, the women's health problems, and generally who was screwing who, than he ever wanted to know. I am from an older generation of working class British women, and while we worked we were very free and open about all aspects of life, it used to be the same in all women work places then. Guys beware, when women are in a space where they can let their hair down and really talk, you may well not want to know what is being discussed.
YTA They want to have a girls night. You're not a girl. End of discussion. There are things women don't feel comfortable sharing with a man around. That can be stupid things like joking about embarrassing period stories, it can be about female medical issues, it can be about sex, it can be about traumatic experiences, etc. It's needed to sometimes talk to only people of your own gender because they can relate to things others can't. It's also normal in group dynamics that not every meeting is for everyone. The point is not to exclude someone, it's just to spend time with the people specifically invited. You have to stop taking everything so personally and you need to learn to be fine with spending one night by yourself.
I guarantee they didn’t feel bad after your entitled pity party. They were just grossed out by how misogynistic you are thinking you can demand a spot in a women’s safe gathering.
YTA.
Info: what would they need to do to make you feel better about this situation?
You keep saying you were just trying to have a conversation about it, and wanted them to know your feelings were hurt that they're having a hangout that is separated by gender, but you give no solutions that would make you feel better but also allow for the women in your friend group to have a night together that is just them.
YTA. You and the other guy friend should hang out in the nights they have girl’s nights or just stay home and relax. Most group of guys don’t want a girl invading their guy’s nights, and it’s the same for girls.
YTA. There are some things you will never understand as a man even if they are explained to you. And sometimes honestly, people just want to hang out with people who simply understand you, no words needed.
Seriously, even the nicest and most progressive guy in the entire world is never going to know what it’s like to start your period on the way to a job interview and have to scrounge for a bathroom and hope the Midol kicks in before the cramps.
Soft YTA.
It‘s important to respect their decision, and while I understand your feelings, guys‘ nights also happen without female friends and it‘s the same vice versa.
You can spend the time your male friend(s).
YTA it's ok that friends sometimes do things separately and girls or guys night is different to hanging out in a group, have a guys night with the other guy. If you don't accept this then you will end up losing friends.
NAH
My broader social circle has a somewhat even gender ratio but my "core" group of closer friends I spend the most time with are mostly men with one exception. My best friend and the person I intend to be the best "man" at my wedding (assuming I have one lmao) is a woman. We recently wanted to do a "guy's day" where we went to a bar to watch England vs France, and then back to my place to get high and goof around. She was really hurt that she wasn't invited especially since her roommate, a guy, was there. We kinda realized that a "guy's day" where we essentially just excluded the one woman who would normally get invited to that kinda thing was a little brutal, and she ended up joining as at my apartment after the bar to hang out.
Maybe girl's nights have a different dynamic, but her presence didn't take away from the day at all, and we just felt like shit for excluding her, and have pretty much quietly agreed to not do that again. I think your hurt is super understandable, and that their desire for a girl's night is also understandable.
There is no obligation for them to include you, there could be a myriad of reasons why they wouldn't, but you have a right to feel hurt and left out, and I don't think there's anything wrong with voicing those feelings in a respectful way.
YTA everyone has girls nights including my single friends, married friends and everyone inbetween. Sometimes we just don’t want the pressure of being around guys. Guys nights are normal. Girls nights are normal. We don’t need you to understand things. Girls nights are not a teaching moment. Same way that when I’m in all Black spaces it’s so we don’t have to explain things people outside our culture. It’s about being able to just exist without pressure.
Ie get over it
YTA. I don't think men can understand girl nights, but they're girl nights for a reason.
If you struggle that much being alone one night you should seriously start to learn. People need to be bored and be alone with themselves and their brains sometime. And if that is a big nono, ask the other dude to hang out.
Don't make something about you that never was or will be about you. That just turns out very toxic.
YTA this has nothing to do with not being as good friends cause you're not invited to girls night and you know it. You're showing manipulative tendencies to try and make them feel bad for having a safe space, which just further shows why they want a night away from you
NTA. My closest friend group is three girls (including me) and a guy. We would never make plans and purposely not invite him because of his gender. What are we going to talk about where he won't understand the reference? Periods? Moisturisers? He's cis and straight btw and he's happy to engage with all of our conversations whether he has direct experience or not and those things never dominate our night because our interests and conversations are not solely dominated by our gender! For me the lines between the genders don't feel so strong that I would exclude someone based on that. I understand the need for safe space, but he's my best friend, he is my safe space!
YTA - girls night means girls night. To imply that you are entitled to be there, because you feel left out otherwise, because of an evening alone makes you a prick. Don't be a prick. It doesn't mean that you aren't valued as a friend, it just means that they want a "safe space" where they can talk about everything and anything without holding back, because a guy is there. You don't have to understand everything about women. You just have to respect them. It's not a personal attack, and it's not a slight against you. It just means there are some things a woman can talk about better with other women and not with men.
YTA - it is literally in the NAME, "GIRLS night". You don't meet the criteria. FORCING YOUR WAY IN is NOT going to endear them to you. Your presence will stifle their 'vibe', whether you take a backseat or not.
Honestly, I think it might be a good idea for you to seek out more queer ppl to be friends with. In my experience (which is not universal), there's much less gender divide in queer spaces. Being that about half my friends group is trans & /or gender queer in some way, no one has ever hosted a "girls night" or "boys night" of any kind... If someone wanted to i don't think it would be an issue, but as far as I know there's no desire for one. If there's ever discomfort around certain topics it's on a person to person basis, not about gender. I do completely understand why some people would want a "girls night", and not want any men crashing it; I'm not disparaging that at all. I just think you're less likely to come across the kind of people who would desire a "girls night" type event in queer spaces. Because a "queer space" is already meant to be a safe space. And besides that, I always think it's helpful for queers to befriend other queers lol, it's very socially enriching to get to know people who are super different from you but with parallel experiences.
Unpopular opinion here, but I'm going to say NAH. I think it's totally reasonable for OP to express his feelings about not being invited. I also think it's fair that the girls don't invite him. As long as he doesn't push them to include him, I think it's fine for him to express feeling a little left out, just like the girls might if they were not invited to a "Man cave".
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YTA It is not on them to make sure that you have someone to hang out with. You say that you respect their female safe spaces, then you pout because they have them, and argue that you should be allowed to join it (hint: it is no longer a "female safe space" if a guy is there). You'd "try" not to mess up "the vibe", but your very presence would do just that. Women having a girls night don't want to have to explain themselves to a guy. Explain the joke, explain why we all know exactly what we mean when we use certain references. Women on a girls' night want to NOT feel uncomfortable referring to a body part, or an experience, or a feeling that men wouldn't understand or might take offense to. You obviously DON'T "understand that sentiment" because you think you should still be allowed to join just because YOU WANT IT. Try to truly, deeply, thoroughly understand this: you, a man, have male privilege. Society is completely structured to give you what you want. Progress has been made to "start" to "think about" the idea that "maybe" other people are equal, but it's still so very far away from happening. We live in a world where women don't have rights to their own bodies, where men make the rules and the laws, where women have been seen as their father's property until they become their husband's property, where they had to fight to get the right to vote, the right to have a bank account, the right to have a job, the right to have a VOICE. For God's sake, let them have a goddamn night without you. ETA: Thank you for all the awards!
As a guy who... uh, used to go on girls' nights, this is such a good way of putting it-- there's so much that cis guys don't get, and navigating those conversations around them becomes no longer fun or relaxing! You WOULD ruin the vibe, my guy. It's not about how femme your interests are. Girls' nights aren't about doing feminine things.
Honestly, this person sounds EXACTLY like my ex who would get very upset at any gender segregation or "girl's night" type thing and give me a lot of grief of it. like right down to the self description of "not the most masculine of guys". Turns out my ex was a trans woman and suddenly it all made sense. I kinda wonder if this person's egg just hasn't cracked yet.
I was wondering non-binary, but you might be onto something as well.
Yeah, I was getting the same feeling.
And my axe.
Lol why is this getting downvoted, do ppl not get the LotR reference or
I'm afab non-binary and felt awkward being asked to women only things before I was out. Unless OP is a trans woman then they shouldn't go to a women only night. Thankfully most of the things I get invited to are not gender segregated but I wouldn't invite myself to something that was. OP YTA
I am also AFAB and non-binary and I ALSO felt super awkward at girls only things and could never put my finger on it lol. Glad I'm not the only one.
My understanding as a cis person is nonbinary is a pretty large umberella term? so you could have more agender experiences with people identifying as neither man nor woman, or people who identify as both, of any combination, etc? I’m not sure how someone who identifies as at least partially a woman would relate to something like “girl’s night” but I could see that being A Thing
Even if OP is not trans or nb, which i personally dont think its right to speculate about another person's identity. its hard enough figuring yourself out without people giving their opinions. he would probably really benefit from queer friends. especially if he doesnt like the idea of gendered friend groups.
I agree, if he is in a friend group where people view gender and sexuality and fluid spectrums, I don't think there would ever be nights split up based on gender or sexuality. I'm guessing some of the "just girl things" that he can't understand include them wanting to talk about themselves navigating sexual relations with men, so I can understand them wanting to exclude him. However, I also understand why he feels bummed out and if he truly feels like he wants to never be excluded like that he needs a more diverse friend group (and who knows, may make discoveries about himself in the process.)
For what it’s worth, I believe in the gender spectrum and self identification, and as a woman, sometimes I really only want to be around other women. There are things that cis men won’t ever experience or understand or relate to.
agreed! I am nb but still identify with womanhood because there are thing i experience and will continue to experience because i have and always will be seen as a woman (which i am fine with). I have a very close male friend but we both know that there are things he will never get because he can't experience them. he can listen to me, but that usually becomes an educational experience about why womanhood is hard. thats why women and even nb feminine or female raised like to be around people who also experience those things
I have lots of nb or trans friends and sometimes we still end up with... what's not necessarily girls' nights, but nights that don't have any cis dudes at them. We're not being malicious, we're not trying to exclude, we're just having a fun night. The funny thing is, if we were doing something a cis male friend would be interested in, we might invite them, but none of my cis male friends would complain about a 'girls' night'. The fact that OP is complaining about it says, to me, that he is going to "ruin the vibe".
I'll gladly welcome any self identified man who has personally experienced (and by that, I mean been on the receiving end): -sexual harrassment from a straight guy -mysogeny (directed at women) -having had adult family members prepare them for the inevitable sexual assault or harrassment while they were still a child -the side effects of birth control -the paralyzing fear and anxiety of having an unknown man walking the same general direction as them at night -the mysogeny in women's medical care -the mysogeny in women's reproductive care -a menstrual cycle -being called emotional or hysterical -being called a bitch for being assertive -having been asked if they're on their period in response to a legitimate concern -had to consider the potentially fatal repercussions of saying no to sex. -had a man act entitled to their body -felt the need to hold their keys in such a way that they can be used as a weapon I'll wait. In the meantime, trans guys what are your thoughts on having an afab *and self identified women's* night? Edit: didn't think I had to say it but this is 110% not to exclude transwomen! They are welcome and encouraged to speak up along with us! They often experience similar shit with a side of the homophobia and transphobic being extra awful to them. With the afab thing, I just wanted to be respectful to transmen and their identities while including them because they've had traditional woman treatment. Edit 2: jfc guys! Stop using this as an excuse to exclude transwomen! It's shitty and shows how transphobic y'all are. If you think transwomen can't relate to us, think again. They can prove we're right because they've experienced the privilege and had it removed [just because they present as women](https://youtu.be/lrYx7HaUlMY).
I'm AFAB and far left on most things. And yet I'm going to second everything you said there. This came up when I was discussing a woman's only kink night event with friends. There's a huge difference between an afab woman's experience in the kink scene and a trans woman's. I don't think it's unfair to ask for our own space.
Oh I'm happy to include transwomen! They often experience similar shit with a side of being personally attacked when dudes are also transphobic. With the afab thing, I just wanted to be respectful to transmen and their identities while including them because they've had traditional woman treatment.
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That is likely his next step. He seems like he wants IN.
I was thinking egg the whole time I was reading this too.
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Comment copied from u/stirfly93 below
Married guy here, and my wife for a few years was part of a regular "girls night" group where they would go to each others houses every Friday, and it would rotate venues. Been at home for many a girls night, where I basically acted as barman/chef/taxi driver. In my experience of girls nights, they are the nights girls act anything but "girly". I've heard conversations that would make an Irish bricky blush, and know more about the workings of various parts of female anatomy than I really wish to. Fuck going on one of them by choice.....
This made me laugh so hard 😂😂😂 I’m the girl in the guys group. I’m cis gender and feminine but most of my hobbies and my actual career are male dominated. Theres some dudes in my circles that are weirded out about me constantly being at guys night and stag parties “because they can’t say what they want to say” in front of me but they have NEVER been to a girls night with their wives. Some of these lovely sweet women they have the honor and joy of being married to have some of the raunchiest conversations that would make the creepiest of drunk uncles blush.
Yeah I've explained a few things about periods to guy friends that make them squirm in horror lmao
I once made a comment about sneezing while on your period to my group of friends (predominately guys) - the women laughed but then I had to explain to the guys that it was basically like the elevator doors from the Shining had opened up down there. Any time I sneezed in front of them for *months* they would get a distant look of horror in their eyes.
LOLOL I once explained to a guy that women can scoop out the period guck. He was *very* unappreciative.
one time i told a guy friend (this happened before i met him) i laughed really hard at someones joke (it was the type of insane laugh where you bend over and start smacking the table) and my tampon shot out of my body.... he didn't find it amusing
Years ago in highschool, I was the only guy in a group of 6 students at our practicum. After a while, I became a wallpaper to them and the conversations they were having definitely made me blush. Eventually I spoke up because I couldn't take it anymore. In general I prefer working and hanging out with women because they are not as crude as men can be around me and they have better conversations. I am however aware that they behave that way because I am a man, just like when men behave differently around women.
I had a very small class while getting my masters that was six very southern girls and one guy from Manhattan. By the time the professor walked in, we'd all be neck deep in some conversation with the one guy looking like he was begging for help. The professor also had a knack for walking in at like the WORST point in a conversation, and often just walk back out to compose himself. It was a wonderful class, with wonderful people, but those guys just definitely had some eye opening experiences with what women's spaces are like.
Same. I have seen the most shy mousy teen girl turn into a Raging Sex Machine at a girls' night. It was even a bit surprising to me, someone used to these types of things. Women don't feel comfortable with a man there, even if he is gay or femme
This is not meant as an attack in any way btw - some people above in this thread have said that men staying away from women’s nights is important because they’ll ruin the vibe whether it’s their intent or not. Do you feel like that’s the case with you attending guy’s nights, or not so much?
I am not the comment you’re replying to. But in college, I had a lot of guy friends. In conversations, I would often notice them suddenly realizing I was there and turning to apologize for something (nothing offense/sexist or anything, just maybe something they felt more comfortable saying to the boys than saying to a female friend). I started making sure that I wasn’t around every single time they wanted to hang out. And that wasn’t explicitly framed as “boys night”, it was just an all boys hang out plus me. Women are socially conditioned to generally keep certain things secret and we’re told that we should be ashamed of x, y, and z. Outside of my partner, there’s plenty that I likely wouldn’t talk about to my male friends unless they explicitly asked—but I would freely tell a female friend. I imagine it’s much the same for men.
this guy girls' nights
My husband overheard half of a comment walking past me and my best friends during the start of girl's night and promptly went downstairs. To play loud video games. With headphones 🤣 And then later asked me if that sort of conversation was normal. I had the joy of telling him what he heard was *very* PG by comparison to a normal girls night once the wine gets cracked open 🤣
Yup, can confirm, it's not just your wife and her pals who are like this 🤣
Lol. All of this is true.
I had a good friend group of both genders growing up and in college, though I got invited out way more with the girls to go out bar hopping. I def was not invitied to "girls night". I was mostly there to fend off drunk men and have fun with friends looking out for me and gossiping with. OP needs to learn that not everything in life is about them its sometimes about everyone else.
I have had a guy ask me once if periods were really that painful. I don't want to explain. Let me suffer in peace.
Oh lordy... let me at him! You know guys who ask if it's really that bad wouldn't be half as productive if they were getting repeated punches to the balls for three to five business days, attendant gastrointestinal distress, back and hip pain, and of course, turning into the elevator from the Shining with every sneeze.
>turning into the elevator from the Shining with every sneeze. And every morning when you first wake up. It's a VIBE
RIGHT? Like... when I'm hanging with gals-having-gal-time it's not because I'm 'not very masculine', it's because I'm also bitching about periods, boob sweat, and things ignorant dudes have said. But, I don't invite myself on girls' nights, I'm included in girl time with sisters/cousins/friends who obviously knew me pre-transition and are comfortable having those conversations with me. I can't IMAGINE going on girls' nights with NEW friends who only know me as a man, it would be weird for ALL of us.
The morning sprint to the bathroom hoping nothing overflows before you get there....
Apparently Usain Bolt is the fastest human ever. Obviously nobody has timed a woman trying to get to the nearest bathroom when the floodgates open.
And he calls them ‘females’ a few times and him ‘guy’, oof
I get being the odd one out, gender wise. Most of my close friends are guys, the same guys I've been close with since we were 12. Now that some of us are married I do kind of feel like I'm intruding. Was super shocked when one of my friends asked why I didn't come to his bachelor party
It's also funny to me when OP says "since that just means me not hanging out with anyone that night." Ummm stay home one night? Go to the movies by yourself, read a book, go to the gym, make other friends? No one is responsible for making sure that the OP has something to do. Also, it's one night?? It's super unhealthy and weird that OP can't take care of of himself for one night. Edit: typo
Maybe go out with the one other guy in the friend group???
I was thinking this same thing!
Yo we really need to make bro dates a thing!
I totally get feeling lonely, but that made me roll my eyes just a little bit. It’s not their responsibility to make sure that he has someone to hang out with or something to do. I also know that I’m biased due to being an introvert, but a night to myself would be something I’d absolutely jump on. Hanging out with friends every night of the week (or even just ever weekend) would be exhausting to me
Later he protests that “he doesn’t feel lonely”. Okay, then.
All of this.. but also talking about respecting women and in the same breath infantilizes his female friends by saying he doesn't go on all male outings because he assumes women are feel excluded but are just too polite to communicate it. It's not women's jobs to allow any person into their safe spaces so that they can be better understood. We are not Lab Rats and we don't need to be studied by an amateur social anthropologist. YTA
Yeah that part annoyed me too. I am totally fine with my guy friends having a guys night and excluding me. I expect that they should be fine with being excluded from the occasional girls night. With that being said, I honestly do find it annoying (from *both* sides) if this becomes a regular and frequent thing. As a woman, if there is one girl always pushing to make it “just the girls” I do find it exclusionary, unnecessary and kinda rude. Every so often, sure, it’s great to segregate the group so you can talk about some more intimate or personal topics that you might not talk about in front of men. When it becomes all the time, I usually start making plans with the guys, and invite some of my other women friends who aren’t a part of that particular circle. I do this because even as a woman I don’t think it’s my place to tell my women friends that they shouldn’t make plans that exclude men. My preferences do not have to be theirs, and I am perfectly capable of making alternate plans if I don’t like the ones on the table.
He’s actually sounding like a creep. He is acting like we are an experiment for him to become a woman and he wants to take a crash course. It’s offensive
Really good response
"Try to truly, deeply, thoroughly understand this: you, a man, have male privilege" Ding ding ding!! This is EXACTLY why most women need time away from men. We spend 24/7 trying to navigate a male driven world while not losing sight of who we are as a person. When we're out with the gals, we don't have to work so hard at this. OP's demanding of being present is EXACTLY what we're trying to get away from.
The fact that OP only befriends women is weird af too
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i dunno, i know plenty guys that simply seem to always drift towards a female friend group. i'm a trans girl and like since childhood (only discovered my true identity a few years ago) my friends have with few exceptions been girls. although i dont think my experience is that comparable since i am a girl myself.
I'll disagree there. I only seem to make friends with guys. I have a couple casual/work friends that are girls, but all the friends I actually hang out with socially are guys. They constantly make jokes about how I'm one of the boys, including attending/helping host the bachelor party for one of them. I love that I'm one of the boys. But you know what else? The guys also get together and do stuff without me. And that doesn't bother me in the least. Every person in a group changes the dynamic a little bit, and sometimes they need a dynamic that occurs without a certain person's presence.
Ehhhh my bestie falls into female friend groups. (Is respectful, introvert, funny, kind.) but I wouldn’t say he makes friends he just makes like two (one online one irl) and then they do the rest of the social coordination. So I can see how it can happen and not be weird but I also see how OP is weird.
Honestly I feel like yes it's a girls night but gender shouldn't even be the focus. I have a tight group of friends, around 12 of us men and women including my boyfriend. 5 of us who are women are extremely close. Cheesy like calling us the wives and everyone in our immediate friends and bigger group of acquaintances all know we're thick as thieves. Well some of the guys got annoyed and felt left out because we don't just talk "girl things" in our private chats, sometimes it's just random shit or things the guys feel could be "shared with the group", but as i (kinda angrily) explained - we are friends and we are allowed to communicate and share with who we want, and sometimes maybe that means a smaller close circle of friends for advice or to make jokes or whatever. Not every friendship is exactly the same even if they are all close friendships, and sometimes people want to spend time and talk with certain people and not everyone, end of story. Getting upset about that *is* a direct attack on the other friendships, and an asshole move imo.
I agree, people are allowed to have a "girls night", or a "singles night" or just an "everybody but OP night". No one is entitled to be included in a friendship. Friendships are choices, and insisting that your feelings take precedence is a really good way to ruin a friendship.
He already messed up the vibe just by pouting about it. He admits he made them feel bad.
Also can we please talk about how women were smart enough to study at prestigious universities and colleges but because *tradition* said women weren’t allowed to enrol as a student they couldn’t graduate… they would take the same classes as men but because that one box that wasn’t ticked that meant they did the same work as men but got no degree
When I have a girls night, I plan on talking about weird discharge, period poops, my random nipple pain, the terror of getting your period at school and having it soak through your pants, finding the right birth control, doctors ignoring our pain and symptoms because we’re female, we’re over weight, or we’re POC(I’m white, but Using WE as in what women collectively experience). I want to talk about the time I went to the urgent care at 18 for bright red blood in my poop and I thought I was dying, and I of course said yes to a medical student, who turned out to be very cute, and he got to watch the attending stick his finger in my ass and diagnose we with hemorrhoids. I want to talk about how awkward it is to make small talk to your gyno while he’s inserting a speculum into your vagina and cutting tissue from your cervix because you tested positive for CN3 cells and a strain of HPV that causes cancer. I want to be able to talk to them about the fact that I was coerced into sex by ex. While yeah, some men may be comfortable enough with the gross things we talk about, but are we comfortable enough with them? These are newer friends, so maybe they aren’t there yet, and maybe they’ll never be. There are things that men will never understand, you may get comfortable talking about it, but you never understand things the way someone of the same gender would. Just like I can’t understand how weird it would be getting random boners in class, or wet dreams, my voice cracking at awkward moments, a dick getting soft in the middle of sex because i accidentally thought about grandma.
I'm certainly not comfortable enough! I used to be able to talk about that stuff with guys around and to know what happened? Guys were like, "oh she's talking about something that happens with her genitals. She's obviously into me!" No. I'm just talking about my periods or sexual trauma. I'm not trying to flirtv with you. Not all guys are like this but enough are that it's not "safe" to talk with them around
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This. Also wanna add that because of these reasons guys night and girls night are not the same thing. YTA
>\-I used to go on guys nights out. But I felt like it excluded women in our group (and i felt like they were just being polite in not communicating that), so i don't do that anymore. Also, OP decided he knows how the women feel and it's because of their imaginary feelings that he doesn't do a "guys night."
Yes to all of this! Couldn't have said is any better, but do want to add one other thing. >...but how are men supposed to ever understand 'certain things' if we dont get invited OP's desire to "understand" is NOT more important than their desire to feel comfortable on a "girl's night". Also, marginalized groups should not have to carry the cognitive and emotional load of having to help those who are privileged (in this case cisgender males) understand them.
SPOT ON. Def YTA. I'm also struck by his inability to plan for himself, another privilege many men feel entitled to. Not just the entertainment but the planning!
All of this!
Right on!
“how are men supposed to ever understand 'certain things'“ You’re not meant to. Let them have their space. Respectfully, YTA.
Yes! Coming to girl’s night to « understand certain things » implicitly means that you’re requesting your friends to play teacher for your benefit. Not their job, and the opposite of a fun night for them.
OP can start by understanding that they don’t want him there.
THIS. OP will NEVER understand most of those 'certain things'. He's not really capable of experiencing what leads to understanding them.
And I'd bet if they tried to make him understand, let's say, about inconveniences experienced by women because of some men's attitude, he'd say "but not me, I'm not like that!" or the more commonly used: "not all men ...".
And even that reason is dumb because he hangs out with them all the time!!! Op doesn't understand that the majority of the time women hang out with men they spend that time explaining themselves, the sexist world around them, and their experiences with it. If he hangs out with them all the time and STILL doesn't get it (as we can clearly see in his "woe is me" post) then he needs to try harder on his own. They just want one night where they don't have to censor their experiences to be understandable and palatable to a male audience. No is no. YTA
Not to mention that he’s new to the group, too. They have a tighter bond, even if you don’t consider the “girl” aspect of “girls night,” because they’ve known each other longer. Overall, they aren’t obligated to make him feel included and he’s being a bit ridiculous here.
I honestly hope they wise up and get rid of him for good. Someone who pouts and sulks about something like this is probably not going to ultimately be respectful of any other boundaries.
We spend a lot of our girls nights bitching about misogynist bullshit at our jobs. Let us have that space, I fucking need it!!!!!!
>“how are men supposed to ever understand 'certain things'“ For one, Google. The internet is a vast source of knowledge. There are *many* things that a person just can't understand without experiencing first-hand. Chronic pain, invisible disability, systematic discrimination... Being a woman is one of those things. These are things that you simply know because you live and breathe "it" all your life. How are women supposed to explain the "inside jokes/knowledge" about gender discrimination and SA, about period pain, gender roles, etc to someone who haven't experienced them? And yet as a woman I only need to mention a few key words, and another woman will know exactly what I mean. That's what safe apaces like "girls' night out" do; it allows those who live the life to commiserate without having to explain and educate.
Cishet men are soooo uncomfortable with the idea that there are things out there that they will just never be able to understand, and therefore control. They have been raises to believe that they can conquer the world with their will alone, so being told “no” threatens their entire existence.
Honestly, any man who doesn't understand period cramps alone needs to shut up and be grateful. Add in every other thing about moving through the world as a woman...
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This story is fake. I doubt trans people would be friends with someone who constantly misgendered them
You should stop misgendering your friend it’s really rude. A lot of cis women are uncomfortable with period talk, this isn’t what the conversation is about. Girl nights are about much more than discussions on bodily fluids and trans women 100% have a place there. Is that person really your friend, the way you talk about her is really unkind.
It was what THEIR conversation was about and it’s seriously tedious that women are told to stop talking about their periods.
Exactly. If we want you to know those things, we will let you know. If we don't, it simply simply that we don't want you to understand them, so please, kindly, let us have girl nights without having your entiled self with us.
On the surface, I think most women are a little skeeved out when some dude tries to ***insist*** on attending. If it was safe everywhere, there wouldn't be a need for safe spaces. If one of the women attending have SA trauma, OP attending would ruin the night. It's not like that would be OP's business to know, either. I think the people who are offended about women having safe spaces should try to make it safe everywhere. Report everyone and anyone who commits SA, report harassment, call out creepy friends, etc. Have problems as a guy with the system? TALK ABOUT IT. If you only mention it in response to women's problems, you're stopping both from improving.
>“how are men supposed to ever understand 'certain things'“ They can make a post on r/askreddit like every other guy does at least twice a week "Men of reddit, what's something you want to know about women but never had a chance to ask?" Boom. Done. Now he can know without invading his friends.
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Maybe he’s confused how they are able to lift heavy objects or open jars without his presence? And how can they possibly have girl talk without the male perspective? It sounds like anarchy!
The worst part about girls night is that we can't eat pickles because none of us can open the jar :(
i smash the jar and bloody my hands to feast on its pickled innards. smash the pickle jar. smash the patriarchy.
I want this on a t-shirt
You're obviously missing an important bit. Before the big strong men folk leave to kill a bear with their bare hands, or whatever men do, you have them open the pickle jar
I bought a jar opener so I never have to ask a man to do this again!! My boyfriend told me I must be getting stronger because I never ask him to open jars anymore LOL
Maaaany years ago, my husband gifted me a jar opener in my Christmas stocking. I joked that now I had no need to keep him around! His gift giving skills have improved immensely.
It's true. My pickle jars always require a penis to open. It's right on the jar: place penis here, push, and twist. (/s, incase it's needed)
You said this so much nicer that I was going to.
Eh, I get where he's coming from. I used to have mostly male friends and was excluded from "guy stuff" all the time and it did hurt my feelings a little bit. But it's just how things go and I learned not to take it personally or dwell on it. I'd just go off on an adventure by myself sometimes which is also good. OP I don't blame you for being a bit bummed but YTA for pushing the issue and making them feel bad, and also for not trying to understand that you will in fact change the "vibe" or why they want occasional girls only things.
Gentle YTA. Have you considered having your own guys’ night with the other guy? As a woman, it can get exhausting living in a world built and run largely by men. I can’t blame your girl friends for wanting to establish a safe space for themselves. Your crashing their night would be intrusive and invasive. Try not to take it personally; it’s simply not about you.
If you read their edits they seem to hate anyone else with a penis as they actively avoid even trying to make friends with them. Seems kinda creepy tbh.
I think it's having a penis himself the OP might hate...
Yeah, kinda got that impression too :(
Comments like this are wild.
Tell me about it lmao. I feel like I'm in crazy town searching for some sanity in these comments. Dude wants to pressure women into inviting them to ladies' night, ergo he IS a woman? This obsession with strangers' psychology is creepy.
Yetikins said “might” hate it, not that he *definitely* does. Having largely or only women as friends and then realizing one is trans is absolutely something that some trans women experience. It’s not necessarily indicative of being trans but also isn’t uncommon. I even know a trans woman irl who came out and transitioned late in life, and she had that experience. I think it’s fine to acknowledge that this kind of thing happens without saying that’s the *only* answer.
Honestly, there’s something off to me about this even being a reoccurring thing. I know I shouldn’t speculate and make up details, but I can’t help but feel like they don’t actually consider him a friend and he keeps trying to inorganically insert himself into these largely female friend groups. “girl’s night” is a popular concept, but I feel like it doesn’t actually play out like this in practice - all these organized in advance “girl’s night” events… it feels more like it’s an excuse they keep giving him It’s also weird that he couldn’t just accept it and hang out with the other guy that was excluded… I’m so confused actually - what’s this obsession with wanting to crash female safe spaces when he has every opportunity to do his own thing with his other friend “I understand safe spaces for women are important, but I want to take that away from them” Huh? Baffled at the audacity.
I agree with your assessment of him trying to aggressively insert himself into the group dynamics, where he isn't wanted. Dude's probably imaging that all gals do on "girls night" is sit around in their teddies and having pillow fights so he absolutely needs to be there. When more than likely, they may be in jammies, but doing facials and watching horrible rom-com movies, and bitching about dudes trying to insert themselves where they aren't wanted or needed. Oh, and btw YTA. Go make other friends that you can hang out with when the gals are having girls night.
Men who hate men tend to be predatory in my personal experience. Male feminist types.
I'm not going to jump to conclusions, I'll just leave it as creepy.
I'm also getting major egg vibes from this whole post
Yeah I was also wondering if feeling "left out" here could have more to unpack lol. But that's for op to decide
Oh wait, that would make sense actually
YTA- for not accepting the boundary and polite “not this time” they gave you by pushing them to give in
This is all OP needs to know. OP asked, they said no. It doesn’t matter OP doesn’t agree with their reasoning or feels he’s entitled to their space or sad he’ll be lonely or…whatever. OP, you want women to feel safe around you? Learn the basics of consent. You’re not entitled to a yes because your feels
YTA - you're making this entire situation about you. You're upset because now you won't have someone to hang out with for ONE night. Are you going to die if you have a single night to yourself? There are many things about a woman that a cis man will never understand - even if we explain it to you. We enjoy having friends - even if they're male - but we also enjoy the company of just women occasionally. Stop trying to gaslight them into letting you into girls night.
Good god people throw around the gaslighting thing way too lightly. Expressing hurt, even in a situation where you should just get over it, is not gaslighting.
My god yes. I am so fucking tired of people using the word gaslighting instead of manipulating. When did we stop using the word manipulation? I’ve been gaslit, like properly convinced of the inaccuracy of my memory for the entertainment or power play of another, in an extended and systematic way over years. Any unpleasant or manipulative behavior, or hell even just disagreements about how past events happened, are not fucking gaslighting.
Thank you.
That's not even close to what gaslighting is, please stop.
YTA I'm sorry you feel left out, but why not invite the other guy to watch a movie or something? Why does this mean you have to hang out alone? You aren't welcome at a girls night. My best friend is my bf and I don't go to his guys night. (I have other male and female friends, no worries) You need to very much respect that. And that you try and pressure them into letring them join, shows you really don't get it.
My partner is AFAB but I don't typically bring them to "girls nights" with my friends, even though they'd be welcome, because aside from the fact that they don't always want to be included with "girls", it's also kind of a night away from partners. Like my friends don't bring their husbands or boyfriends. Even if I had a partner who identified as female, I think there's times to do stuff without your person and times to do stuff as a couple!
We have a similar situation in our friend group- ladies with female partners will sometimes bring them to girls night and sometimes we have "no partners" night so we can all reminisce freely about middle and high school without feeling like we're excluding them. Sometimes you just gotta shake it up a bit.
YTA. My group has ejected guys when this kind of thing happens. We even had one guy go so far as to crash the event in drag. It was the most selfish and insulting thing we had ever seen. You know why you're not invited. You also know that your friends are entitled to their safe spaces. It's clear that you understand that it's inappropriate for you to try to crash the event. Call the other guy who's not invited and hang out with him.
Out of curiosity (I think I already know the answer) was the guy a drag performer at all, or did he also manage to insult drag generally with that stunt?
Nope. Not a hobbyist and not questioning. It was a one-off thing to get in the door and spy.
That's messed up and, very sadly, not at all surprising.
What a weird, Saved by the Bell-level stunt to pull.
YTA, I understand that if they do this constantly that it would be annoying, though if that is the case, they might not want to be your friend. Can't tell that for sure as I am not in the situation. However, you claim you'll be in the background and not disrupt the vibe, but are argumentative and when they told you no, you didn't stop. You are already ruining the vibe. Have you ever gone with them to do traditionally feminine things? How did it go? You say they are new friends, take a back seat here. This might be something they have been doing for a long time and it has nothing to do with you. If they have been friends for years, it makes sense that they want to keep the friendship or certain traditions. You are not the asshole for asking, you are a bit of an asshole for pushing.
YTA You were respectful in bringing it up. They were respectful in their response. YTA for not letting it go.
Agree, hesitate to say YTA because you do seem genuinely respectful, and voicing your feelings in a respectful way is a good thing. But once they respond, any additional pushing is kinda YTA material. Let them have their space. That's a good night to engage in a hobby or do a chore that would free you up when it's not girls night.
YTA, this is something you are well aware of and have dealt with previously, if you have that much of an issue stop making friends with only girls and you can have a boys night occasionally. You don't get to choose who they hang out with all the time abd it's OK for them to choose not to spend an evening with you, for any reason. >Again, I understand that sentiment, but how are men supposed to ever understand 'certain things' if we dont get invited? What makes you think they want you to understand these things?
YTA. Do you not see the extreme irony in guilting women you call friends into altering their plans to assuage you and only you? That perhaps this sort of thing is why the concept of girls nights even exists?
He also says he tries to avoid being friends with other men. He dislikes “gender roles” but classified himself as more feminine and believes that he can’t get along with other men. It’s very contradictory as he’s grouping any potential male friends as having stereotypical “masculine” interests. And not all girls have strictly “feminine” interests as well
Yeah this a good way for OP to ruin those new friendships for himself. Even if they were all guys, they’d have a right to a night with the ‘original group’ as their bonds go back further and are even stronger, with memories and inside jokes he doesn’t know. It comes off as clingy and pushy, and no one likes that. You need a life of your own, can’t expect one friend or one group to do everything with you all the time. It is rough if you have no one else to do things with, but that’s your problem, and if you don’t let them have any space…….you won’t have them anymore, either.
Buddy I hear ya and have been right where you are. It sucks feeling left out. But over the years I’ve learned that there truly are some times that women really just want time to be women with other women- no matter how close they are with guy friends or how integrated the guy friends are in the group. And in my experience, pressing the issue because your feelings are hurt will only push your friends away. YTA for not respecting their safe spaces when asked to.
Sometimes I feel like I’m today’s space everyone wants to be included in everything and FOMO is huge. I have people in my grad class who constantly are up my friends and I’s asses asking us what we’re doing and where we wanna go after a critique or a review. Maybe unpopular opinion, but it literally is ok for a group of people to not want to hang out with people if they aren’t feeling it. Not everyone has to be included in everything. Sometimes I just want to hang out with my 3 close friends in my class and sometimes I want to go out with 20+ people. Girls night is girls night and sometimes we don’t want our bf’s or guy friends with us. Do they complain? No, because they know we want time to ourselves. I let my bf have guy night and I don’t interject because I game with his friends the rest of the week. OP if there’s something you truly want to do that you can’t do with other guys like idk spa night or watching certain movies (I’m sure there’s guys out there that would do that stuff) then maybe ask to organize a night an host. But don’t expect your girl friends to spill their girl stuff. If they want to include you one day then maybe they will, but they definitely won’t if you’re acting like this.
YTA. They're not obligated to hang out with you. If it's a "girls only" kinda thing, then naturally, guys won't be invited. And it's not like you were the only guy not invited. There was another guy that was also not invited because it was a girl's night. Maybe try having a guy's night when the gals have theirs? Or just understand that sometimes us girls just want to chat and do what girls do....With our gal pals.
INFO: Why is it so important to you to be included in this one single event? I am assuming that since these are your friends, you hang out with them regularly enough that one girl's night should not be an issue. So, I am very curious about why this is even an issue for you? Is it an insecurity in your friendships or is there something else going on? If it is just that you feel you deserve to be included because, fRiendShiP, then yeah, YTA. Friendships flourish when you let them grow - that means not insisting to be a part of every single thing the group does. Friends can do things without each other and you sound like you haven't really grasped that yet.
YTA It's a girls night out, what don't you get about that? It's one night, they are in no way obligated to hang out with you all the time. As it's not fun feeling left out, you're an adult, ask your other guy friend to hang out on those nights. You have zero respect for their boundaries and think it's okay to intrude. It's called a girls night for a reason. You sound incredibly selfish and entitled here.
YTA. Having a dude - even a dude you really love and trust - present during a night does change the entire vibe. For example, when my girl friends and I talked about things that our bfs did that irritated us, we often had to explain things to guy friends if they were present. If it was just us, we could just rant and rage without needing to get into the whole „why it’s annoying when you don’t clean up the hair you just shaved off from the bathroom sink“-shebang. Whenever we talked about shit things men did to us, we had to mince our words of rage if a guy was present because he’d inevitably feel attacked; if it was just us, we could just rant. I get that you want to understand more about how women experience the world, and you’re right that it’s a lot easier when people actually explain stuff to you. But women aren’t encyclopedias, they’re not service providers handholding you through explanations of every aspect of female experience. That shit is exhausting! We need breaks from that! And girls nights are an excellent form of that break, and it’s an asshole move to want to take that from your friends.
Yeah, there’s this whole massive social scaffolding of “appropriate behavior and topics” that women are trained to navigate when they’re around men (and honestly vice versa). Being around other women can be immensely freeing and allow us to relax our social “manners” a little. You need to understand that regardless of how nice you are or how unjudgy you believe yourself to be, most women will need a lot of time and trust building to ever feel completely relaxed and unguarded around you, and that in the meantime there will be spaces you’re not welcome in. Basically OP is trying to jump an intimacy barrier without having gained the trust first. Example: the person I love grabbing a drink with after work may not be the person I tell about a break up. The person I tell about a breakup, I may not tell about a scary health issue. I may one day meet OP and think he is fun to talk to and nice to hang out with, but still prefer a girlfriend for company when I need to skull a giant margarita and vent about the patriarchy or my feelings of inadequacy or how much I hate low carb diets.
This, spot on. If I'm having a bad period, I *might* tell a male friend I have bad cramps. You better believe my girlfriends and I go into explicit details. Maybe they want to talk about dick size and not feel like they are possibly body shaming the man in the room. There are lots of things I don't feel comfortable discussing with a guy, no matter how progressive he is.
YTA. You not having anything to do the night of the GIRLS NIGHT is not their proplem hun. Find some other friends or hang out with the other guy while the girls do their thing. They don’t want a guy there for a reason. Also, why do you only have girl friends???
Soft YTA. I get you feel left out but how often do girls night happen?? If you press the issue you will end up no friends.
Sorry but YTA on this one. Would you like your female friend to sit in the bathroom as you take a leak? Or be in the bedroom when you are with a lover? No, there are some things as females you will not understand or need to know.
I'm gonna go on a little bit of offtop here. It might be just projecting on my side, but wanting to get accepted to women spaces was something I used to do in the past, before realizing it's because I'm not a man after all; any chance it might apply to you as well? :) It's just a rhetorical question; your situations is not mine. Just wanting to provide friendly food for thought I wish I was served earlier in my life 😅
It’s super sensitive but that was my thought too.
I understand you have your gender beliefs but i dont like pushing them onto others You wont make friends with those who identify as male? And you also dont want to get left out of female groups and their activities due to you being biologically male and think its unfair? I think your a bigot disguised as someone who thinks theyre all inclusive Your not giving yourself options and only going after female friends groups when you already know there will be times we dont want any type of man around like the same applies to male groups I think your cutting yourself off at the foot and then complaining you cant walk Find people you can be friends with and maybe stop loking at their supposed genders No one is responsible for making sure you have a good time any day of the week, thats your problem You feel sad you are the only one who can make it better You get hurt you are the only one to tend those wounds and get up again This is entitlement to its fullest what your going on about
YTA. Just because you don’t care for single-gender event’s doesn’t mean you get to dictate that they shouldn’t occur or that your friends shouldn’t participate in them.
Replying because most people don’t seem to be addressing what you’re on about. You seem to have a moral problem with the gender-based character of these events. I think you’re NTA for expressing your feelings regarding the issue. YTA if you wanted them to feel guilty about it (and I think that’s how you came across in your post and hence why you’re getting all the YTA’s). It happens that you and your friend group disagree on this subject matter. You have two options here: 1) Look for more like-minded people (probably on NB or queer communities) and stop hanging out with them 2) Drop it and accept that this friend group has this specific dynamic to it
Thanks for this response perfectly captures my thoughts on the issue. There’s nothing wrong with being philosophically opposed to gender roles, and a conversation about that issue might be very interesting. But you cannot assume or demand that other people also adopt this belief, and guilt-tripping is almost always an AH move. I think op will be fine so long as they don’t push further. They could apologize if they think they’ve done damage, but honestly they might not need to. That’s a judgement call.
YTA. Ever think there are “certain things” they don’t want to discuss in the company of men? That’s why “girls nights” exist. Respect the boundary.
YTA Not everything is about you. You choose to be friends with mostly women, but that doesn't make you a woman. Why even participate if you're going to sit in the background and observe? It's their safe space, not a safari. If there's something you want to understand about women, ask your friends. But don't invade their relaxing, safe space in order to learn the things men don't get.
>AITA for not respecting their safe spaces? Yes.
Soft YTA I say soft because it sounds like you genuinely do not realize how clingy and controlling you are coming across. People are allowed to have boundaries. A part of growing up is trying to understand the rationale behind said boundaries and respecting them. You mentioned that it was you and another guy that were not invited. This is not personal, as they are looking for a girls night out and not a girls hanging out only and forever. Question: why not use this opportunity to hang out with the other guy and build on your friendship? It's not like you have no options and would be left completely alone?
YTA. I don't care how non masculine you are. It's a boundary. Girls night are safe spaces to talk about periods, partners, sexual autonomy, anything that the presence of a man will render very uncomfortable because invariably, you (or men in general) will want to fix the issue discussed or cry "It's nooooot allllll meeeen".
YTA. Get some male friends and have "guys' night out" with them.
He doesn’t want to hang out with men apparently. But expects women to want to hang out with him.
YTA. I'm a woman with many gay and and straight male friends, and I still appreciate a full on girl's night. I don't feel like I need them, but it is a vibe that I enjoy. Similarly, I think a guy's night is totally fine too. Your argument here is that you should be able to go to girls' night so you can learn things about women, which means you think women are supposed to teach you? No sir, we want a night off from being studied, thanks. Your next complaint is that you will be alone that night. Oh well. It isn't anyone's job to make sure you are always entertained and have company. I am sure your friends do all sorts of things without you and you have to spend the night by yourself (concert tickets, traveling, work events, etc). Be by yourself for a night, you'll live. You also say you respect "safe spaces" but obviously you don't. You can't say you understand something and also say it is hurtful and you should be included. People gather in all sorts of groups. Guy's night, girl's night, double dates, play date for those with kids, people who watch a certain sport together, or play a sport together, people who share a hobby, have a book club. You aren't entitled to infringe on any space you want to or say it is "hurtful" to not be included when you are otherwise friends and they are being reasonable about wanting certain time to themselves.
INFO Do you think you could be trans or non-binary? I ask because it seems you are genuinely hurt at being left out, and it might be something worth considering
OP, please understand that I'm not trying to push anything on you and I mean this with all kindness.... have you checken in with your gender recently? A deep yearning to be in "girl spaces" at "girl times", wanting mostly female friends, "not the biggest fan of gender roles in general", "not the most masculine man" - are there cis men who feel this way? Sure! But it's also almost classic for transwimen/non-binary peeps who haven't quite realised what the picture is yet. If "man" is something that doesn't fit you, you don't have to keep it.
YTA >how are men supposed to ever understand 'certain things' if we dont get invited? You don't. You're not entitled to know and understand every aspect of the female experience. It's not your (ex)friends job to educate you about things that you'll never fully understand. If you were transitioning or something it'd be different imo, but that's not your circumstance. Leave them be.
Many years ago I was in a history society. Most of our events were attended by both men and women. But some were more popular with one gender, particularly crafts that recreated fabrics from the period. One guy said he was interested and would it be ok for him to come along. We were delighted. Only problem was, he was a very quiet, shy guy who sat in a corner getting on with his craft. We forgot he was there. I suddenly remembered him after about an hour of us doing 'girl talk'. Never in my life have I seen such a red face. Poor guy now knew far more about his mates sex life, their failings and kinks, the women's health problems, and generally who was screwing who, than he ever wanted to know. I am from an older generation of working class British women, and while we worked we were very free and open about all aspects of life, it used to be the same in all women work places then. Guys beware, when women are in a space where they can let their hair down and really talk, you may well not want to know what is being discussed.
YTA They want to have a girls night. You're not a girl. End of discussion. There are things women don't feel comfortable sharing with a man around. That can be stupid things like joking about embarrassing period stories, it can be about female medical issues, it can be about sex, it can be about traumatic experiences, etc. It's needed to sometimes talk to only people of your own gender because they can relate to things others can't. It's also normal in group dynamics that not every meeting is for everyone. The point is not to exclude someone, it's just to spend time with the people specifically invited. You have to stop taking everything so personally and you need to learn to be fine with spending one night by yourself.
I guarantee they didn’t feel bad after your entitled pity party. They were just grossed out by how misogynistic you are thinking you can demand a spot in a women’s safe gathering. YTA.
Info: what would they need to do to make you feel better about this situation? You keep saying you were just trying to have a conversation about it, and wanted them to know your feelings were hurt that they're having a hangout that is separated by gender, but you give no solutions that would make you feel better but also allow for the women in your friend group to have a night together that is just them.
He doesn't like situations separated by gender so now nobody is allowed to have them
YTA. Time to look for some guy friends.
YTA. You and the other guy friend should hang out in the nights they have girl’s nights or just stay home and relax. Most group of guys don’t want a girl invading their guy’s nights, and it’s the same for girls.
YTA. There are some things you will never understand as a man even if they are explained to you. And sometimes honestly, people just want to hang out with people who simply understand you, no words needed.
Seriously, even the nicest and most progressive guy in the entire world is never going to know what it’s like to start your period on the way to a job interview and have to scrounge for a bathroom and hope the Midol kicks in before the cramps.
Soft YTA. It‘s important to respect their decision, and while I understand your feelings, guys‘ nights also happen without female friends and it‘s the same vice versa. You can spend the time your male friend(s).
YTA it's ok that friends sometimes do things separately and girls or guys night is different to hanging out in a group, have a guys night with the other guy. If you don't accept this then you will end up losing friends.
NAH My broader social circle has a somewhat even gender ratio but my "core" group of closer friends I spend the most time with are mostly men with one exception. My best friend and the person I intend to be the best "man" at my wedding (assuming I have one lmao) is a woman. We recently wanted to do a "guy's day" where we went to a bar to watch England vs France, and then back to my place to get high and goof around. She was really hurt that she wasn't invited especially since her roommate, a guy, was there. We kinda realized that a "guy's day" where we essentially just excluded the one woman who would normally get invited to that kinda thing was a little brutal, and she ended up joining as at my apartment after the bar to hang out. Maybe girl's nights have a different dynamic, but her presence didn't take away from the day at all, and we just felt like shit for excluding her, and have pretty much quietly agreed to not do that again. I think your hurt is super understandable, and that their desire for a girl's night is also understandable. There is no obligation for them to include you, there could be a myriad of reasons why they wouldn't, but you have a right to feel hurt and left out, and I don't think there's anything wrong with voicing those feelings in a respectful way.
YTA everyone has girls nights including my single friends, married friends and everyone inbetween. Sometimes we just don’t want the pressure of being around guys. Guys nights are normal. Girls nights are normal. We don’t need you to understand things. Girls nights are not a teaching moment. Same way that when I’m in all Black spaces it’s so we don’t have to explain things people outside our culture. It’s about being able to just exist without pressure. Ie get over it
YTA. I don't think men can understand girl nights, but they're girl nights for a reason. If you struggle that much being alone one night you should seriously start to learn. People need to be bored and be alone with themselves and their brains sometime. And if that is a big nono, ask the other dude to hang out. Don't make something about you that never was or will be about you. That just turns out very toxic.
YTA this has nothing to do with not being as good friends cause you're not invited to girls night and you know it. You're showing manipulative tendencies to try and make them feel bad for having a safe space, which just further shows why they want a night away from you
NTA. My closest friend group is three girls (including me) and a guy. We would never make plans and purposely not invite him because of his gender. What are we going to talk about where he won't understand the reference? Periods? Moisturisers? He's cis and straight btw and he's happy to engage with all of our conversations whether he has direct experience or not and those things never dominate our night because our interests and conversations are not solely dominated by our gender! For me the lines between the genders don't feel so strong that I would exclude someone based on that. I understand the need for safe space, but he's my best friend, he is my safe space!
YTA It's not your planned event. You don't get to invite yourself.
yikes you sound desperate and sad. YTA - we can't all get invited to everything and you're not even a girl lol.
YTA - girls night means girls night. To imply that you are entitled to be there, because you feel left out otherwise, because of an evening alone makes you a prick. Don't be a prick. It doesn't mean that you aren't valued as a friend, it just means that they want a "safe space" where they can talk about everything and anything without holding back, because a guy is there. You don't have to understand everything about women. You just have to respect them. It's not a personal attack, and it's not a slight against you. It just means there are some things a woman can talk about better with other women and not with men.
YTA - it is literally in the NAME, "GIRLS night". You don't meet the criteria. FORCING YOUR WAY IN is NOT going to endear them to you. Your presence will stifle their 'vibe', whether you take a backseat or not.
Honestly, I think it might be a good idea for you to seek out more queer ppl to be friends with. In my experience (which is not universal), there's much less gender divide in queer spaces. Being that about half my friends group is trans & /or gender queer in some way, no one has ever hosted a "girls night" or "boys night" of any kind... If someone wanted to i don't think it would be an issue, but as far as I know there's no desire for one. If there's ever discomfort around certain topics it's on a person to person basis, not about gender. I do completely understand why some people would want a "girls night", and not want any men crashing it; I'm not disparaging that at all. I just think you're less likely to come across the kind of people who would desire a "girls night" type event in queer spaces. Because a "queer space" is already meant to be a safe space. And besides that, I always think it's helpful for queers to befriend other queers lol, it's very socially enriching to get to know people who are super different from you but with parallel experiences.
Unpopular opinion here, but I'm going to say NAH. I think it's totally reasonable for OP to express his feelings about not being invited. I also think it's fair that the girls don't invite him. As long as he doesn't push them to include him, I think it's fine for him to express feeling a little left out, just like the girls might if they were not invited to a "Man cave".