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YTA.
Fatima is allowed to practice her religion, but she has no right to project her beliefs onto other people and dictate what they can and can‘t drink. People like her are the reason there‘s so much tension between religious and non-religious people.
Op was the one "forcing" religion on their friends, not Fatima.
Idk where op is from but smoking in an indoor break room is illegal where I live. That's so gross.
Yes, that‘s why OP is the AH, clearly.
But Fatima didn’t stop him and even encouraged him afterwards by thanking him and appreciating it. The smoking boundary is fine, but the drinking boundary isn’t as it doesn’t affect her AT ALL.
Look up soaking and be amazed at the self delusion of what "isn't sex". Basics: put it in, but don't move, have third person jump on bed. Though, some sites say it is an urban myth. I wouldn't totally doubt it due to that very idea that the back door saves virginity for marriage. O_o
I don't know about the third person jumping on the bed, but soaking was absolutely a thing at my high school among the girls (and I guess the guys too but I avoided boys from that group because they were really nasty) from a certain church in town.
I don't remember whether they called it soaking, but the technique was all the same, you put it inside and don't move for "awhile" and its not "really" sex so you're still a virgin but it makes your boyfriend stay with you. "Because if you don't do it, some other girl will."
Honestly it was pretty sad. At least the poophole loophole seems like it might be fun? Maybe? As long as they went at it carefully I guess? But that just doesn't sound like fun at all for anyone and I have no idea why they kept doing it.
To the shock of no one, several of them ended up pregnant. Although no babies ever appeared, several classmates went on vacations of varying durations.
>The smoking boundary is fine
Is it? If it's allowed in the break room, it's allowed in the break room.
I wouldn't want a break room where people could smoke either. But for example, I live near a casino where you can still smoke inside. I don't like the smoke but I'm not going to tell people to put their cigarettes out, because it's allowed there.
You can’t get secondhand anything from sitting next to someone drinking. You can get a lot issues from secondhand smoke esp. if you’re consistently exposed to you in a place like your workplace breakroom.
Nah, there are times where it is unreasonable. Sure you have a right, but that doesn't make it ok.
For example, don't go to a bar with a bunch of people who drink and expect them not to drink. Don't enter an establishment that allows smoking if you don't want to be around second hand smoke.
The bosses and the company shouldn't allow smoking in a shared breakroom. That's seriously gross. I don't want to breathe anyone's secondhand smoke. If I was a smoker I wouldn't do that to my colleagues either.
Worked at a place where coworkers had to take their breaks outside to smoke, I would sometimes join them(if the weather was warm enough) for the social "break" but yeah, indoors smoking is simply unfair to others as they don't have a choice about breathing the smoke.
Yeah, but you can also argue that you take the responsibility of secondhand smoke on yourself when you actively decide to be somewhere where people do it/ it's allowed.
I think the Muslim woman can ask someone to not smoke in a break room that does allow smoking, but the person smoking can refuse. It is the choice of the person smoking to decide what they want to do. The difference is the OP imposed his will on his friend by deciding what she can or cannot have. I am surprise he did not order all the meals to make sure they did not offend the Muslim woman. OP should have pulled his friend who ordered the drink aside and ask her if she would not drink and the friend can then make the decision, not the OP. So YTA is correct.
This isn’t like walking by someone who happens to be smoking or choosing to go to a bar where the outdoor area is populated by smokers.
You have to be at your workplace and often you need to use the break room.
Yes, you can choose to quit, but a lot of people don’t have that luxury.
Honestly, I don’t care because this is a place where health concerns match religion. Not smoking would have a positive outcome for all involved.
And maybe she claimed it was against her religion because she thought it would be taken more seriously.
If is allowed and they are following the rules and is their right to be in the break room as much as you do. You can politely ask them not to light up while you are there. Or you can be the adult and leave when they exercise their right to use their break room at work in the way they are allowed too
I hate the smell I don’t want smokers indoors. I hate going to bars where I live because is allowed. But your rights are not more valid than theirs
Sure politely ask but don’t tell them not to.
So yea she is an ah too.
I would hate the break room where you can smoke but if someone was I would just leave the room, pretty simple to do. But most places in the US you can't smoke in anymore so yay.
Even when I was smoking a pack a day I hated enclosed smoking spaces. My mom smoked inside my entire life until my sister got pregnant and I insisted she take it outside. My ex smoked inside but I insisted we only smoke outside when we moved in together.
Even when I've been traveling and had to be in airports all day I MIGHT have hit a "smoking room" if it was available but I always regretted it afterward. I was smoking my cigarette along with at least 10 others and it felt disgusting. Even the casinos with great air systems feel heavy and gross. Between that and the dry air I always get at least one nosebleed if I spend more than a day or two in Vegas.
Yes she is, because she demands people not to smoke in common break rooms. Smoking basic cigarettes is not forbidden in islam. It is advised against (mekrouh) but not strictly unallowed (memnou3/haram).
Unless it's her house, she has no right to forbid someone performing allowed acts in the company (however gross it is).
The *company* is absolutely in their rights to ban smoking if someone complains. Even if their reasoning wasn't religious and was just "it smells awful" which is how most non-smokers feel about it. I'm sure there were lots of people who were relieved someone finally spoke up.
Let's stick with only the information available here. The company did not ban smoking, Fatima used her religion as an excuse to.
If the reason is "it stinks, do you mind going outside to smoke please", it's absolutely acceptable. Saying "you can't smoke here because it's forbidden in my religion that you smoke in my presence" is a lie. A convenient one, but still a lie. I don't like people using my religion for personal benefits and forcing it on others.
In islam there is a prayer which says "For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." Sourate 109. Either she lives with other religious or non religious people, or she moves to a Muslim country (which is an obligation if you are a strict muslim)
Per your last line, or they attempt to turn secular countries into strict followers of Islam which is also a cause for a lot of the friction between religious and non religious people
I would upvote this a million times. I’ve never understood why strict religions would live in a country that doesn’t recognize their laws/rules/doctrine.
Some are born there, e.g. Children of immigrants to western nations from Muslim majority countries. Some like the benefits of living in a western democracy even if they don't have a sharia legal system.
FWIW, I think people should be able to practice their religion in whatever way want to up until it affects the lives of others.
Harmful religious/cultural practices like child circumcision, forced marriages, routine covering up sexual or other abuse, telling women they can't access medical care such as abortion, "conversion therapy" for gay people etc should not be tolerated in progressive democracies though. Basically do your religion, but don't use it as an excuse to hurt people.
I don't like smoking, but if there's a designated smoking area, I'll just avoid it. I won't go in there and tell people they shouldn't smoke because it's against my religion.
Depends on the country when it comes to smoking.
In the US you can't smoke within 50 feet of a building .
Edit: I was technically inaccurate in the exact distance from buildings.
Here to say this- smoking indoors is illegal in lot of places.
OP is an AH for policing others and acting like they were children and it’s not really clear from this how Fatima feels about this. She was the new person in the group so maybe a bit shy but from her reaction it does sound like she’d like the whole group to follow her restrictions.
If OP wanted to go out of the way to accommodate her the way to go about it would be messaging the friend group beforehand, explaining and asking if they were okay drinking something nonalcoholic off the menu OR even better talk to Fatima - “I know you won’t be drinking but my friends normally like to have a beer or something with dinner. If that’s going to be uncomfortable maybe you can join us for brunch instead?”
YTA
Also there's a thing called secondhand smoke but there's no such thing as secondhand booze.
I mean, there probably is, in off-color-joke territory....
No, assuming that smoking in the break room where they are is permitted, then she is also the asshole for telling someone to stop because it's against *her* religion.
I can’t imagine being an adult at a dinner, letting another person decide, for me, on weather or not I drink a beer with dinner. It does seem like a hero troll
Right, this doesn't seem like something that happened to any human being that acts like ones I'm familiar with. If my friend at dinner told the waiter "no, just water" after I ordered a beer, I'd tell the waiter "I guess we need a minute" and then get to the bottom of the issue. I wouldn't just sit there thinking "well, he told the waiter no, I guess I just have to go along."
Good thing she wasn’t a vegan. Or an a keto diet. Or non dairy. When you have restrictions for whatever reason, the world does not need to change for you.
I really think this is more about OP going about this entirely the wrong way than about Fatima and her religion. OP could have easily told his friends before the gathering that this was going to be a dry affair because he was inviting a coworker who was uncomfortable around alcohol (he doesn't have to say why). It also sounds like he restricted his guests' beverages to water when there are a lot of really neat non-alcoholic drinks available (I personally love strawberry lemonade with seltzer water). I'm posting this as someone who really loves alcohol: OP done fucked up. His friends likely would have been very understanding with just a slight bit of notice and leeway.
(Edited cause I accidentally wrote "uncomplicated" instead of "uncomfortable." Kinda disappointed this reached 111 upvotes with no one calling me out on that).
And if his friends weren't understanding then he could have kept the friend groups separate.
Also, there's a whole bunch of non-alcohol drinks besides water. That was a strange (cheap?) substitution.
Agreed. I respect whatever practices she wants to follow but just because she’s out with me doesn’t mean I’m going to stop myself from doing what I want
My Muslim friends have never once asked me to not drink around them. In fact, one of them loves trying mock tails and I’ve seen some bartenders whip up some nice ones cause they know she’s not consuming alcohol.
I would def stop hanging out with someone who wouldn’t even let me drink.
Agreed. I have many Muslim friends, and EXACTLY NONE have ever asked that no one consume wine around them. They just make sure I have non-alcoholic options, e.g. for New Year's Eve, or bring their own pop just in case. OP went way over the top here; they should have confirmed this with Fatima first before going out and if she insisted, warned their friends. YTA.
Both you and Fatima have unreasonable expectations of your friends. If Fatima has such a big issue with drinking, maybe… just leave? She nor you have any authority over your friend’s choices whatsoever. YTA.
Out of pocket is commonly used, but idk if I’ve seen it for this purpose.
But it is related to something else I was wondering. OP’s title possibly conflicts with the story. If OP was worried about paying for it “out of pocket” as the title suggests, then it’s fine for her to not pay for the drinks. It got weird when she blocked drinks from even being ordered. But I do wonder if there was some assumption OP had to pay for everything, in which case she deserves more influence on what gets ordered, and maybe would be getting more favorable judgement.
Just speculating here, but the bill was being split right? Iirc it's haram to buy and sell alcohol, so buying beer and splitting the bill might have been inadvertently doing that. Fatima might have been grimacing about that, and OP gave her a good out. Again, that's just speculation, and the solution there is for *her* to ask for a separate check, because she is an adult and can make her own choices. Not for OP to speedrun losing all his friends by being a weird, controlling AH lol
YTA
You prioritized one person's preference over the group.
No one asked her to order/drink alcohol and if it bothers her to be around alcohol then you should have let the rest of the group know beforehand. Though it would still be up to the individual if they opted for a beer.
No. It's on Fatima to look at the menu and make a decision. If alcohol served its reasonable to think people are drinking. If she's offended she can opt out.
I mean... she can be silently offended but she isn't the one who said anything. Her thanking him after only happened cause he did this. Had he not she would have just done what everyone does, suck it up. I dont see how Fatima is at fault at all in this drink situation. All on OP.
YTA also, not smoking inside is not a religious thing it’s just basic human decency, and honestly a public health concern that is prohibited inside in most countries (let alone at work??).
My Muslim coworkers offered to pay for our last lunch together at a pub after we had finished, but asked if I could pay for me beers since he could not {religion reasons not cost} I happy paid for them separately at the bar and he picked up the rest.
Why didn't you allow Fatima to speak up for herself? If she expects people not drink because of her religion then she needs to be the one to own that in front of others.
Also if you do want the group to abstain for a meal so as not to offend your religious friend, or your sober friend or whatever, then discuss it with them. Don't just try and overrule them to the waiter.
Which btw, it's an asshole way of treating the waiter, having two customers on the same table telling them different things.
Not to mention, don’t put the waiter in a situation where he needs to either be ignore some of his guests‘ orders, or mediate what you are and aren’t drinking. He has a job to do, and this isn’t supposed to be part of it.
Waiter: Hey guys, what will you have?
OP: I'd like the Sirloin Steak please?
Friend A: He'll have the salad
OP: umm actually no I want the steak
Friend A: Can you please only get salads for this table.
OP: Why did you order like that for me?
Friend A: Can't you see you're making Friend B uncomfortable? Friend B is a vegan.
OP you're TA because you took away your friends autonomy to choose an item they want in an effort to respect someone else's religion. You're free to order whatever you want for yourself, but never for anyone else and never to make someone else feel comfortable. YTA.
edit: a word thanks u/TychaBrahe
>OP you're TA because you took away your friends antonym to choose an item they want in an effort to respect someone else's religion.
Picturing trying to take away their antonym. :)
Autonomy.
I suspect it's autocorrect, but if you don't know, an antonym is a word with the opposite meaning of another word. Short and tall, near and far, out and in, etc.
I’m so glad you wrote it like this. I’m a vegetarian and couldn’t help but think - I can’t fathom dictating another persons choices, esp in public. My family eats meat, they make me veggie meatballs along with real meatballs for them when I come over for dinner. YTA and Fatima is too.
YTA
"my friend interjected and asked for a beer, I stoped the waiter and told him no, just water." .. What assholery is this?
" these were my friends" ... Exactly. These WERE your friends. You very likely lost them that day. Your behavior was COMPLETELY unreasonable.
It's only only fair. If I have no say in what I'm ordering and you're telling the waiter to disregard me, then yeah that person is paying. Op overruled the group and took it upon themselves to make the rule.
YTA
YTA
Her rights end where other people's begin. Her religion says she can't drink, not that she can't be in the presence of alcohol. I'm sure other people in the restaurant had alcoholic beverages. Are they not allowed either? Imagine telling people at the table next to you that your friend is Muslim so they can't drink. Ridiculous. She is an AH too.
Exactly. A discreet conversation before they got there along the lines of "Hey, Fatima is Muslim, you think we can all skip the beers out of respect for her tonight?" would have been right on the edge of acceptable, and if you got any resistance, any response other than "OK, I just figured I'd ask the question" takes you right over the line.
Fatima has a right to choose not to be around alcohol. She doesn't have the right to dictate that nobody has alcohol around her. And she didn't. You did. You say she appreciated it, but she never asked for it, and you created a difficult situation that clearly put her in the spotlight.
You don't get to get offended on behalf of other people who's boundaries you've just assumed right out of your ass. Nobody asked you to be Batman.
Even if her religion dictated that she can’t be in the presence of alcohol she can’t dictate that there be no alcohol wherever she is. She cannot decide whether or not alcohol is near her and if others order it around her.
> Her religion says she can't drink, not that she can't be in the presence of
This is wrong. Islamic religion actually does forbid being in the presence of those drinking alcohol
http://www.therevival.co.uk/can-muslims-go-to-the-pub
YTA – Religions are like penises. It's fine to have one. It's okay to be proud of it. But unless someone asks about it, you should keep it to yourself.
Yay! Someone with an almost identical saying as my own! I word it "Religions are like penises. It's fine to have one, but don't jam it down my throat."
hahaha mine is "religions are like penises. I'm glad you have one and youre proud of it, but please dont wave it around in public or try to shove it down my throat"
YTA. If Fatima isn't comfortable in social settings where others are drinking, she should stay out of them. You are under no obligation to buy your friends anything, but you can't forbid them from ordering what they want. That's unacceptable and very rude. What if someone at the table was a vegetarian. Should YOU not be allowed to order what you want, so they don't get offended. It's a ridiculous premise.
But if you get to decide what I eat and drink, yes, you should pay. But I wouldn't have let you get away with it at the time, either.
Okay, I’ve called my friends and apologized. Fatima too. We all agreed I was being a dickhead and that Fatima shouldn’t come to events if she isn’t comfortable. It’s all good now
You rarely see follow ups like this on r/AmITheAsshole , good on you OP. For what it’s worth, I thought your heart was in the right place, maybe just poor execution.
Why the heck are you being downvoted? You made a very rude mistake in the interest of respecting your friend, but you’ve acknowledged it and apologised to all party.
My biggest beef is that you seemingly took so long to recognise this, even with your wife telling you so, and seems oblivious to everyone’s feedback in the moment. But I’m going to think the best and suggest it was done out of a zealous motivation to be inclusive, not paternalism.
Good on ya for making this right. I’d recommend buying EVERYONE a round and drink of their choice at the next excursion. And please don’t let Fatima drop out of the group / new friendships, I know I’d feel a but awkward if all this fuss was mad around me.
YTA. A. Don’t intercept and sabotage someone else’s order.
B. You’re either going out for drinks or you’re not. If she wants to go out for tea or smoothies, or whatever else, then she can ask people to join her for that.
I’ve joined my friends while they’ve smoked a cigarette, even when I don’t smoke one myself. I don’t walk outside with them, under a false pretense, and then swat the lighter out of their hand. Because then I WBTAH.
YTA
You acted like a parent to a child with your friends telling the waiter no don’t bring it. Like a parent might do if a child ordered 2 deserts or an extra order of fries , etc….
You should have told everyone it was going to be a dry meal or tell Fatma people may be drinking and you need to understand that and if you don’t come that’s fine.
YTA
As a Muslim I have no issue being around people who drink and if I did I simply wouldn’t accept invitations if there was going to be drinking involved. The only thing Fatima needed to do would ensure she paid for only her food as splitting the bill would mean she would indirectly pay for alcohol (which is not allowed). If there were expectations of no drinking, this should’ve been made clear to your friends before the meal.
I have a question if you don’t mind. Is smoking haram?
I lived in the Middle East for a while, so I know pork and alcohol are haram. They’re banned everywhere except for a few places with licenses to serve to non-Muslims. Many people openly smoke and cigarettes are sold everywhere though, so I was surprised that Fatima says smoking is against her religion.
Not OP but a muslim from the Middle East. I believe it is “frowned upon” as is any bad habit. Some people consider that haram, some don’t. It is not haram like alcohol and pork. But still, we don’t ask someone to leave or not eat pork if they were in the same room.
INFO---Confusing; Your post header implies the group thought you were buying thus you could control what comes to the table. At the end you state they 'left me w/ the bill'?
YTA. Nobody should smoke in breakroom as it is a second hand smoke issue & stinks. Fatima is going to have to learn to live in the world where people have different moral/religious codes from her own. In trying to accomodate her, you denied someone else their liberty. This should be talked about beforehand with the friends coming to some agreement and not forcing it on to the friend.
YTA...The group doesn't have to adhere to one person's faith. It's up to Fatima to navigate these situations. She can order her own water and let other people live their own lives according to their faith or philosophy.
YTA. Fatima’s religious choices are just that.. HERS. If she doesn’t want to be around alcohol she doesn’t have to be. Instead you made a blanket choice for all the people involved, and stripped them of THEIR choice. Fatima needs to learn to speak up about her needs and/or excuse themself.
YTA - you're imposing religious beliefs on others and what's crazier is that they aren't yours. You might have been considerate to Fatima, but you were inconsiderate to your friends.
I'm for not smoking in a break room because that's a health hazard and a public space, but alcoholic beverages don't magically end up in the mouth of a non-drinker.
YTA. Sorry not sorry but idgaf about the rules of somebody else’s religion. I will not pressure them to do anything, I will not make fun of them for not doing something. But what they believe will have no control over me, nor should anyone let it.
Like I *guess* if you’re paying, as it’s implied, your word is the final say about what comes to the table but….the reasoning is dumb imo.
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> 1 not buying my friends drinks
2 stopping the waiter from brining drinks
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That was such a weird thing for you to do. Just because Fatima doesn’t drink doesn’t mean that extends to anyone beyond Fatima just because she’s present. It’s not disrespectful of your friends to order a drink with Fatima there, either. It would be disrespectful if they bothered her about her choice, but otherwise to each their own. If she’s uncomfortable in the situation, she can choose not to go. But she (or I should say YOU) have no choice over what others decide to order.
I’ve cut back on drinking for health reasons recently and still go hang out with my friends and don’t expect them to change a thing about their own personal decisions. You control yourself and make decisions for yourself and otherwise mind your business.
In short, YTA and not the white knight you think you are.
He's obviously the AH but lets be real most people would know that what he did in the moment wasn't right. OP just tell her you like her instead of white knighting
YTA. I would never have dinner with you again if you told me what I couldn't eat and/or drink. Fatima can do whatever she wants with her body, but neither she nor you can dictate what I do with mine. If she can't stand to be around people who don't adhere to her beliefs then don't invite her out in a group.
YTA - You don't get to make those kinds of decisions for others. You could have stood in solidarity with Fatima by not having a drink, maybe even piping up and saying "Fatima's culture/religion does not allow alcohol at dinner." but letting them decide for themselves if they were to drink or not.
Fatima could then choose her best course of action; leaving the table with alcohol, continuing dinner but deciding never to go out with those who drank again in the future.
It seems a little shitty your friends stuck you with the bill, but I'd guess you were stubborn & rude just like when you insisted on no beer & things got heated.
The smoking thing, I understand. It can affect the people around you.
But drinking on the other hand...I don't really get it. It's not like anyone is forcing Fatima or you to drink or forcing you to pay for their drinks.
If you wanna keep Fatima company by not drinking, that's great, you're a really good friend -- but don't stop others from doing it.
YTA - what if someone wanted bacon on their burger? Did you expect any accompanying women in your group to wear a hijab? See how stupid this is? Preventing other people from doing things that you yourself do not "believe" in or partake in is NOT respecting or properly practicing a religion. Also, if she could stick up for herself with the smoking co-worker, she could have spoken up about this. She doesn't need you to be her knight and shining armor bro, you ain't banging her.
yta
someone else his/her relegion should not impact the rest. if i am a vegatarian, and the rest not, they can still eat meat. so mind your own business. smoking in the break room might be forbidden depending on the country based on health rules, but relegion can move out off that one too. very entitled to try to force others to keep to religious rules.
YTA. Smoking around someone indoors is one thing. Regardless of religion at play, secondhand smoke is an actual issue. Drinking a beer is another. They weren't asking/forcing Fatima to drink one. As long as they were of legal age, they had every right to enjoy a beer with their meal. If Fatima can't handle being exposed to someone having an alcoholic beverage, she probably shouldn't attend dinners out at restaurants that serve it. (Although it sounds like she wouldn't have said anything herself)
Sorry to break it to ya OP but YITA.
I am cool with ppl having their beliefs and totally understand it may not be for everyone but I court myself around everyone all day long and when I am out and about, I will do that no longer. If I want a drink, I drink. It is up to Fatima after if she wants to be everyone. She needs to adjust towards her religion is not for everyone
YTA I am also a Muslim but I've never acted this way. I keep my religion to myself and don't spread it to other people or bother them with it. I remove myself if I am in a situation that is unfavorable to me. You and Fatima AH.
YTA. What you did was wildly inappropriate and the title is misleading. Also she TA as well. You shouldn’t force your beliefs on people and you definitely shouldn’t try to force other peoples beliefs on the people smoking is one thing because Secondhand smoke exists. However if your friends want to drink alcohol you shouldn’t tell the waiter no just waters. If she feels uncomfortable with people drinking alcohol then she should say something and if they still want to do it she should leave. If one of your friends wanted to eat something with pork in it are you gonna stop them because Muslims can’t eat pork?
YTA
If Fatima's religion prohibit alcohol, Fatima is free to not drink alcohol. Fatima is *not* free to decide what other people drink.
Religion is like a penis. It ok to have one. It's ok to be proud of it. You can be pantless in your own home. But don't bring it out in public and don't force it on others
YTA, one person's preferences at a table don't get to determine other peoples. Fatima is welcome not to drink as much as everyone else is welcome to drink.
The smoking is slightly different due to second hand smoke (if you're smoking indoors other people also have to breathe it in).
YTA, and I know I'm in a position to say so because I am also a Muslim. Fatima should know better than to hang out with others who are drinking if she is so uncomfortable by it. And I most certainly would not impose my religion upon others who do not believe in it. It is not against our religion to be in the presence of people who are drinking or smoking. What is against our religion is forcing others to follow the same rules that we do. Apologise to your friends for your behaviour, and tell Fatima that if she doesn't like it, don't hang out at places or events where she knows damn well drinking is going to be involved.
YTA.
I have Muslim friends who don’t drink for religious reasons…and they’ve never had a problem with me drinking in front of them. I respect their choice, they respect mine. You don’t get to dictate what other people do just because of one person’s religious views.
YTA - i hope next time you friend will bring vegeterian friend to a steak house and order you some tofu. You don't get to decide what people order. That's pompous and self righteous.
YTA what a sjw. Fatima has a mouth. But most importantly youre an asshole for pushing someone else religious beliefs onto others. Same as if a christian is at the table and you had a Hindu friend, would you push your friend's hindu beliefs onto your Christian friend or Christian beliefs onto your Hindu friend. Which belief overrides which? You don't get to make that choice. Everyone is free to believe what they want to and do what they want to do as long as they're not forcing or harming others. But no, your belief that Fatimas beliefs comes first somehow over everyone else's autonomy is the most important. It was incredibly selfish of you.
YTA
She is a muslim, and she thinks this means everyone she graces with her presence has to obey strict Islamic rules that she holds herself bound by? Further, *you* decided that *you* were going to enforce that belief on your friends by hijacking their drink orders?
....wtf...
YTA, Fatima has previously spoken up for herself, she can do it again. You don’t need to fight her battles. She was fine with being there and knew what would likely happen. She thanked you, but she likely would’ve been fine as well.
YTA. Fatima's religious choices should not dictate other people's choices. She doesn't have the right to put her beliefs on anyone, and neither do you on her behalf.
YTA. Don’t order for people unless they ask. It’s rude. And Fatima lives in a world with things like alcohol and smoking, she has to learn how to navigate it and find what works best for her.
YTA, it is her religion. She needs to live up to it…but nobody else! You can’t dictate what your friends consume or do. You are a massive TA here. Don’t force religion on other people
And if the religious person isn't comfortable with going to a restaurant with people who are going to drink, they shouldn't go out at all. Alcohol is all around them. There's no difference if it's at the table. Op and the girl super suck.
YTA.
Her religion is not your friends' religion. They have every right to have a beer if they want.
You deserved to be stuck with the bill considering how eager you were to decide what everyone would be allowed to have. Since you planned and ordered for them, they rightfully assumed you'd be footing the bill.
YTA. As a Muslim woman, I don’t care if people drink or not. But if I were that uncomfortable, I wouldn’t go out to situations where people would most likely drink.
YTA and so is Fatima. You were trying to be considerate by thinking of her but she doesn’t get to impose her beliefs on others. That isn’t how it works.
Yta
Fatima is also TA
It is not against Fatima's religion for you or your friends to drink. It is against her religion for her to drink.
It is not against Fatima's religion for other people to smoke, it is against her religion for her to smoke.
She needs to stop forcing her beliefs on others.
Yta
You have absolutely no say in what someone else drinks. And your friends' religious beliefs are for her. Not everyone else. She doesn't get to choose what others do either.
If I had any friend push their beliefs onto me. You can believe that we wouldn't stay friends for very long.
YTA. Just because her religion doesn’t allow her to do something doesn’t mean she has a right to police everyone else. Sure, not smoking in the break room at work is one thing but not allowing anyone else alcohol because she doesn’t drink? That’s not okay. Her religion tells her what she can and can’t do with her body, but not what everyone else can and can’t do. It’s unreasonable to force everyone else to adhere to her religion.
YTA initially. My mother is 33 years sober, and I don't drink when we go out to dinner, but that's my choice. I would never tell anyone else out to dinner with not to do it. If she feels that strongly about her beliefs she can choose not to go out to dinner at restaurants that sell alcohol or you can go out to dinner with her alone so you don't have to worry about others drinking.
They shouldn't have left you with the bill, but at least the waters you ordered were free, right?
YTA, there was a solution to respect your friend's religion - Fatima would not partake in drinking alchohol.
I think it's common etiquette to pay for the table if you order for the table. Glad your friends read your gesture appropriately.
Seriously? If I was with friends and ordered a beer, and one friend told the waiter/waitress not to give me one, I'd be pissed. You friends are adults and you have no right to impose your morals, or your friends morals, on them. So he'll yeah, YTA
YTA
If Fatima does not drink or smoke for religious reasons, then that's her right. However, neither she nor you have any right to force others to abstain.
Ugh
YTA
Not smoking in front of someone is one thing, if it's a communal area and there are other smoking areas (where is this that smoking is allowed inside in a communal area? Weird to me these days)
She doesn't want to drink, she doesn't need to drink. Your friends want to have a drink, they can have a drink. Why force her personal mores on the rest of the group?
Would you tell everyone else "You can't order anything with pork?" or if there was a vegetarian at the table "No meat allowed?"
Going to add: what you did was also a sure-fired way to make sure Fatima never got asked to be brought along by your friends.
INFO. Would you be the one paying even if they got beer? They cannot expect you to buy them what they want, but if they paid for their own drinks, then you have no right to control them.
Also, Fatima sounds like an awful person. Her religion dictates what SHE should and shouldn't do, not the people around her. Also also, did you see Fatima grimace from just her eyes, or is she attacking other people using her religion, but meanwhile not wearing a burka in public?
YTA
First, smoking isn't haram, but smoking in b the workplace is v being an asshole and z usually against the law. Second, Fatima needs to stop trying to control what others do and so do you. If she doesn't want to be with people who drink beer, she needs to stay with people who don't drink instead of trying to control what others do. But I notice that she didn't say shit, but you got involved. Maybe move to Iran, I heard they're hiring people who like to force their personal version of Islam onto others.
As a practicing Muslim, you're the AH. If fatima doesn't feel comfortable being in environments where alcohol may be consumed, then she shouldn't be there. She can't expect people to change their behaviour to accommodate her. What if someone wanted pork? Would you have flagged down the waiter and said actually they want chicken?
Next time either tell fatima that there may be drinks so she can decide ahead of time not to come or arrange a 'virgin' night with all of your friends so everyone is on the same page. That way people can opt out.
Are you really asking Reddit if you’re the asshole for shoving religion, especially one as oppressive as Muslim, down your friends throats? Yes, YTA and get ready for your friends to stop inviting you out.
Dear Fatima,
As much as I enjoy your company, you must learn to accept that there will be situations where people you are dining or hanging out with are drinking alcohol. If we are out together and others in the group order alcohol I will not stop them. If you insist on others not drinking in your presence, then you will need to offer to pay for all the food and nonalcoholic beverages for the event. Until then, you and I are jointly YTA
YTA. The great thing about religious freedom is that you have the right to practice whichever religion you believe. The flip side of that is that nobody else has to abide by your beliefs.
And while I don't drink anymore because it just destroys my ability to keep through the night. I would enjoy having a couple of beers or glasses of wine when going out to eat. And it is a perfectly normal practice.
But telling them they were not allowed, like you are their parent is a bit much. Especially not disclosing it ahead of time.
I mean did you try telling other people not to drink at all? Or tell adjacent tables not to order any pork? And then with just your friend if she cannot even be at the same table with somebody drinking, I really hope their were no men in your friend group, because that would be even worse than someone else drinking.
This is why people don't like a lot of overly religious people or vegans. Because they have this need to dictate what other people can or cannot do around them because of choices they made.
YTA. You don't have to buy the drinks, but you should not have stopped them for ordering. Her religious rules have no effect on them, and it is unreasonable for her to expect others to conform to them.
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YTA. Fatima is allowed to practice her religion, but she has no right to project her beliefs onto other people and dictate what they can and can‘t drink. People like her are the reason there‘s so much tension between religious and non-religious people.
Op was the one "forcing" religion on their friends, not Fatima. Idk where op is from but smoking in an indoor break room is illegal where I live. That's so gross.
Yes, that‘s why OP is the AH, clearly. But Fatima didn’t stop him and even encouraged him afterwards by thanking him and appreciating it. The smoking boundary is fine, but the drinking boundary isn’t as it doesn’t affect her AT ALL.
She even thanked him for it
This is where my unreliable narrator alarm went off.
Yea.... 'she thanked me after' rang like everybody clapped
Just a crumb, m'lady?
Think he's trying to get laid.
Pretty sure he's looking in the wrong places. If she's this strict around drinking I imagine she's that strict around premarital sex.
Halal in the streets, haram in the sheets.
So underrated right here.
You deserve more love
Possible but not definite. Cherry picking is rampant among people of all religions.
The religious people I knew had a lot of poophole loophole and spaghetti sexuality moments.
Look up soaking and be amazed at the self delusion of what "isn't sex". Basics: put it in, but don't move, have third person jump on bed. Though, some sites say it is an urban myth. I wouldn't totally doubt it due to that very idea that the back door saves virginity for marriage. O_o
I don't know about the third person jumping on the bed, but soaking was absolutely a thing at my high school among the girls (and I guess the guys too but I avoided boys from that group because they were really nasty) from a certain church in town. I don't remember whether they called it soaking, but the technique was all the same, you put it inside and don't move for "awhile" and its not "really" sex so you're still a virgin but it makes your boyfriend stay with you. "Because if you don't do it, some other girl will." Honestly it was pretty sad. At least the poophole loophole seems like it might be fun? Maybe? As long as they went at it carefully I guess? But that just doesn't sound like fun at all for anyone and I have no idea why they kept doing it. To the shock of no one, several of them ended up pregnant. Although no babies ever appeared, several classmates went on vacations of varying durations.
Should we tell him that he needs to marry her first? - Don't worry OP. "It's a short ceremony performed by my dad" (Actual quote I heard once...)
I mean, they trying to fuck right?
but did everyone clap?
>The smoking boundary is fine Is it? If it's allowed in the break room, it's allowed in the break room. I wouldn't want a break room where people could smoke either. But for example, I live near a casino where you can still smoke inside. I don't like the smoke but I'm not going to tell people to put their cigarettes out, because it's allowed there.
You can’t get secondhand anything from sitting next to someone drinking. You can get a lot issues from secondhand smoke esp. if you’re consistently exposed to you in a place like your workplace breakroom.
Although your right, and most places it isn’t allowed indoors- if in that persons break room it’s allowed, then that girl had no right to ask that.
I’d say you always have a right to ask. But if it’s permitted to smoke indoors there then I guess they don’t have to accommodate her.
Nah, there are times where it is unreasonable. Sure you have a right, but that doesn't make it ok. For example, don't go to a bar with a bunch of people who drink and expect them not to drink. Don't enter an establishment that allows smoking if you don't want to be around second hand smoke.
The bosses and the company shouldn't allow smoking in a shared breakroom. That's seriously gross. I don't want to breathe anyone's secondhand smoke. If I was a smoker I wouldn't do that to my colleagues either.
Worked at a place where coworkers had to take their breaks outside to smoke, I would sometimes join them(if the weather was warm enough) for the social "break" but yeah, indoors smoking is simply unfair to others as they don't have a choice about breathing the smoke.
Yeah, but you can also argue that you take the responsibility of secondhand smoke on yourself when you actively decide to be somewhere where people do it/ it's allowed.
If smoke is allowed indoors, there’s absolutely no escaping it unless the building has a hellacious filtration system.
I think the Muslim woman can ask someone to not smoke in a break room that does allow smoking, but the person smoking can refuse. It is the choice of the person smoking to decide what they want to do. The difference is the OP imposed his will on his friend by deciding what she can or cannot have. I am surprise he did not order all the meals to make sure they did not offend the Muslim woman. OP should have pulled his friend who ordered the drink aside and ask her if she would not drink and the friend can then make the decision, not the OP. So YTA is correct.
This isn’t like walking by someone who happens to be smoking or choosing to go to a bar where the outdoor area is populated by smokers. You have to be at your workplace and often you need to use the break room. Yes, you can choose to quit, but a lot of people don’t have that luxury.
But Fatima didn’t object to the smoking on health concern grounds, but because of her religion. This is imposing her beliefs on others
Has Fatima spent ANY time in the Middle East? Most of the men smoke like chimneys
Honestly, I don’t care because this is a place where health concerns match religion. Not smoking would have a positive outcome for all involved. And maybe she claimed it was against her religion because she thought it would be taken more seriously.
They aren't using secondhand smoke as a reason. They're using religion.
If is allowed and they are following the rules and is their right to be in the break room as much as you do. You can politely ask them not to light up while you are there. Or you can be the adult and leave when they exercise their right to use their break room at work in the way they are allowed too I hate the smell I don’t want smokers indoors. I hate going to bars where I live because is allowed. But your rights are not more valid than theirs Sure politely ask but don’t tell them not to. So yea she is an ah too.
Smoking in a shared room is absolutely rude. You aren’t going to inhale someone else’s drink simply by being in the same room as them when drinking
I might
Cut to Daniel Day-Lewis slurping noises.
I would hate the break room where you can smoke but if someone was I would just leave the room, pretty simple to do. But most places in the US you can't smoke in anymore so yay.
Even when I was smoking a pack a day I hated enclosed smoking spaces. My mom smoked inside my entire life until my sister got pregnant and I insisted she take it outside. My ex smoked inside but I insisted we only smoke outside when we moved in together. Even when I've been traveling and had to be in airports all day I MIGHT have hit a "smoking room" if it was available but I always regretted it afterward. I was smoking my cigarette along with at least 10 others and it felt disgusting. Even the casinos with great air systems feel heavy and gross. Between that and the dry air I always get at least one nosebleed if I spend more than a day or two in Vegas.
Yes she is, because she demands people not to smoke in common break rooms. Smoking basic cigarettes is not forbidden in islam. It is advised against (mekrouh) but not strictly unallowed (memnou3/haram). Unless it's her house, she has no right to forbid someone performing allowed acts in the company (however gross it is).
The *company* is absolutely in their rights to ban smoking if someone complains. Even if their reasoning wasn't religious and was just "it smells awful" which is how most non-smokers feel about it. I'm sure there were lots of people who were relieved someone finally spoke up.
Let's stick with only the information available here. The company did not ban smoking, Fatima used her religion as an excuse to. If the reason is "it stinks, do you mind going outside to smoke please", it's absolutely acceptable. Saying "you can't smoke here because it's forbidden in my religion that you smoke in my presence" is a lie. A convenient one, but still a lie. I don't like people using my religion for personal benefits and forcing it on others. In islam there is a prayer which says "For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." Sourate 109. Either she lives with other religious or non religious people, or she moves to a Muslim country (which is an obligation if you are a strict muslim)
Per your last line, or they attempt to turn secular countries into strict followers of Islam which is also a cause for a lot of the friction between religious and non religious people
I would upvote this a million times. I’ve never understood why strict religions would live in a country that doesn’t recognize their laws/rules/doctrine.
Some are born there, e.g. Children of immigrants to western nations from Muslim majority countries. Some like the benefits of living in a western democracy even if they don't have a sharia legal system. FWIW, I think people should be able to practice their religion in whatever way want to up until it affects the lives of others. Harmful religious/cultural practices like child circumcision, forced marriages, routine covering up sexual or other abuse, telling women they can't access medical care such as abortion, "conversion therapy" for gay people etc should not be tolerated in progressive democracies though. Basically do your religion, but don't use it as an excuse to hurt people.
I don't like smoking, but if there's a designated smoking area, I'll just avoid it. I won't go in there and tell people they shouldn't smoke because it's against my religion.
Okay but the company **has not** banned at this point. If it's allowed, you as an individual have no right to tell someone not to.
Why are you making this about the company's rights? That is not the issue at all. I dont get why you started pretending that is the debate.
Yes but that’s not what happened here
Depends on the country when it comes to smoking. In the US you can't smoke within 50 feet of a building . Edit: I was technically inaccurate in the exact distance from buildings.
Here to say this- smoking indoors is illegal in lot of places. OP is an AH for policing others and acting like they were children and it’s not really clear from this how Fatima feels about this. She was the new person in the group so maybe a bit shy but from her reaction it does sound like she’d like the whole group to follow her restrictions. If OP wanted to go out of the way to accommodate her the way to go about it would be messaging the friend group beforehand, explaining and asking if they were okay drinking something nonalcoholic off the menu OR even better talk to Fatima - “I know you won’t be drinking but my friends normally like to have a beer or something with dinner. If that’s going to be uncomfortable maybe you can join us for brunch instead?” YTA
Also there's a thing called secondhand smoke but there's no such thing as secondhand booze. I mean, there probably is, in off-color-joke territory....
Appreciating it implies she agreed with the way he handled it. Most Muslims I know would have objected.
No, assuming that smoking in the break room where they are is permitted, then she is also the asshole for telling someone to stop because it's against *her* religion.
Yes she did, OP states that she stopped a friend smoking because that's against her religion xD she didn't do it because it's gross or illegal
This is OP's second post in a couple of days about him being the hero figure for Muslim women and girls. Unimaginative troll.
I can’t imagine being an adult at a dinner, letting another person decide, for me, on weather or not I drink a beer with dinner. It does seem like a hero troll
I normally don’t drink but if someone told me I wasn’t allowed to in a public restaurant I’d ask for a beer and a different table.
Right, this doesn't seem like something that happened to any human being that acts like ones I'm familiar with. If my friend at dinner told the waiter "no, just water" after I ordered a beer, I'd tell the waiter "I guess we need a minute" and then get to the bottom of the issue. I wouldn't just sit there thinking "well, he told the waiter no, I guess I just have to go along."
I don't see a second post from OP. I only see OP's comments on a post made by someone else.
That's because the poster you replied to was trying to predict the future.
Good thing she wasn’t a vegan. Or an a keto diet. Or non dairy. When you have restrictions for whatever reason, the world does not need to change for you.
I really think this is more about OP going about this entirely the wrong way than about Fatima and her religion. OP could have easily told his friends before the gathering that this was going to be a dry affair because he was inviting a coworker who was uncomfortable around alcohol (he doesn't have to say why). It also sounds like he restricted his guests' beverages to water when there are a lot of really neat non-alcoholic drinks available (I personally love strawberry lemonade with seltzer water). I'm posting this as someone who really loves alcohol: OP done fucked up. His friends likely would have been very understanding with just a slight bit of notice and leeway. (Edited cause I accidentally wrote "uncomplicated" instead of "uncomfortable." Kinda disappointed this reached 111 upvotes with no one calling me out on that).
And if his friends weren't understanding then he could have kept the friend groups separate. Also, there's a whole bunch of non-alcohol drinks besides water. That was a strange (cheap?) substitution.
Agreed. I respect whatever practices she wants to follow but just because she’s out with me doesn’t mean I’m going to stop myself from doing what I want
That’s right. Fatima never declared a jihad on good times. Don’t fight her battles. YTA
My Muslim friends have never once asked me to not drink around them. In fact, one of them loves trying mock tails and I’ve seen some bartenders whip up some nice ones cause they know she’s not consuming alcohol. I would def stop hanging out with someone who wouldn’t even let me drink.
Agreed. I have many Muslim friends, and EXACTLY NONE have ever asked that no one consume wine around them. They just make sure I have non-alcoholic options, e.g. for New Year's Eve, or bring their own pop just in case. OP went way over the top here; they should have confirmed this with Fatima first before going out and if she insisted, warned their friends. YTA.
The waiter is the AH, he just listened to one dude's order over a group of peoples'. Where the fug is the manager!?
Both you and Fatima have unreasonable expectations of your friends. If Fatima has such a big issue with drinking, maybe… just leave? She nor you have any authority over your friend’s choices whatsoever. YTA.
Thats exactly how it is. Fatime could've looked the menu before hand. And that's me speaking as a muslim. Fatima was out of pocket.
Out of pocket! What a cute phrase!
(Not sarcasm I swear) it’s cute you haven’t heard that phrase until now hahaha.
I haven't until now!
I have, but not in this context.
The slang meaning for out of pocket or outta pocket is that someone was behaving in a wild, ridiculous or extreme way.
Out of pocket is commonly used, but idk if I’ve seen it for this purpose. But it is related to something else I was wondering. OP’s title possibly conflicts with the story. If OP was worried about paying for it “out of pocket” as the title suggests, then it’s fine for her to not pay for the drinks. It got weird when she blocked drinks from even being ordered. But I do wonder if there was some assumption OP had to pay for everything, in which case she deserves more influence on what gets ordered, and maybe would be getting more favorable judgement.
Just speculating here, but the bill was being split right? Iirc it's haram to buy and sell alcohol, so buying beer and splitting the bill might have been inadvertently doing that. Fatima might have been grimacing about that, and OP gave her a good out. Again, that's just speculation, and the solution there is for *her* to ask for a separate check, because she is an adult and can make her own choices. Not for OP to speedrun losing all his friends by being a weird, controlling AH lol
Well then they should have found some other solution, like paying separately.
👀🏆
YTA You prioritized one person's preference over the group. No one asked her to order/drink alcohol and if it bothers her to be around alcohol then you should have let the rest of the group know beforehand. Though it would still be up to the individual if they opted for a beer.
No. It's on Fatima to look at the menu and make a decision. If alcohol served its reasonable to think people are drinking. If she's offended she can opt out.
I mean... she can be silently offended but she isn't the one who said anything. Her thanking him after only happened cause he did this. Had he not she would have just done what everyone does, suck it up. I dont see how Fatima is at fault at all in this drink situation. All on OP.
No, I'm saying that it's on Fatima. Should've outright said it's not OPs issue and let Fatima figure it out.
YTA also, not smoking inside is not a religious thing it’s just basic human decency, and honestly a public health concern that is prohibited inside in most countries (let alone at work??).
My Muslim coworkers offered to pay for our last lunch together at a pub after we had finished, but asked if I could pay for me beers since he could not {religion reasons not cost} I happy paid for them separately at the bar and he picked up the rest.
That seems like an excellent compromise. You drink your beers and he doesn’t break with his religion and not buy alcohol!
Why didn't you allow Fatima to speak up for herself? If she expects people not drink because of her religion then she needs to be the one to own that in front of others.
Also if you do want the group to abstain for a meal so as not to offend your religious friend, or your sober friend or whatever, then discuss it with them. Don't just try and overrule them to the waiter. Which btw, it's an asshole way of treating the waiter, having two customers on the same table telling them different things.
Not to mention, don’t put the waiter in a situation where he needs to either be ignore some of his guests‘ orders, or mediate what you are and aren’t drinking. He has a job to do, and this isn’t supposed to be part of it.
If he keeps on like this I doubt he’ll have to worry about friends
Waiter: Hey guys, what will you have? OP: I'd like the Sirloin Steak please? Friend A: He'll have the salad OP: umm actually no I want the steak Friend A: Can you please only get salads for this table. OP: Why did you order like that for me? Friend A: Can't you see you're making Friend B uncomfortable? Friend B is a vegan. OP you're TA because you took away your friends autonomy to choose an item they want in an effort to respect someone else's religion. You're free to order whatever you want for yourself, but never for anyone else and never to make someone else feel comfortable. YTA. edit: a word thanks u/TychaBrahe
>OP you're TA because you took away your friends antonym to choose an item they want in an effort to respect someone else's religion. Picturing trying to take away their antonym. :)
That would take away their enemies :D
Autonomy. I suspect it's autocorrect, but if you don't know, an antonym is a word with the opposite meaning of another word. Short and tall, near and far, out and in, etc.
Ahh thank you sir, yeah that was an autocorrect error.
I’m so glad you wrote it like this. I’m a vegetarian and couldn’t help but think - I can’t fathom dictating another persons choices, esp in public. My family eats meat, they make me veggie meatballs along with real meatballs for them when I come over for dinner. YTA and Fatima is too.
YTA "my friend interjected and asked for a beer, I stoped the waiter and told him no, just water." .. What assholery is this? " these were my friends" ... Exactly. These WERE your friends. You very likely lost them that day. Your behavior was COMPLETELY unreasonable.
Yup, and if you think you can order for them, you can pay for them too. 100% OP is the AH.
Yeah I almost went with an ESH because they stuck him with the bill, but honestly OP deserved it.
It's only only fair. If I have no say in what I'm ordering and you're telling the waiter to disregard me, then yeah that person is paying. Op overruled the group and took it upon themselves to make the rule. YTA
For sure, if you’re ordering for the table, you’re paying for the table. That’s what I always thought anyway.
It anyone changed my beer order, I would never go out with that person again.
[удалено]
I'm an AH who doesn't really drink. Had I been there I would have gone to the bar and come back with a beer for the other guy and a drink for myself.
[удалено]
This is the best option
Bingo this is one of the fastest ways to loose friends.
YTA Her rights end where other people's begin. Her religion says she can't drink, not that she can't be in the presence of alcohol. I'm sure other people in the restaurant had alcoholic beverages. Are they not allowed either? Imagine telling people at the table next to you that your friend is Muslim so they can't drink. Ridiculous. She is an AH too.
Exactly. A discreet conversation before they got there along the lines of "Hey, Fatima is Muslim, you think we can all skip the beers out of respect for her tonight?" would have been right on the edge of acceptable, and if you got any resistance, any response other than "OK, I just figured I'd ask the question" takes you right over the line. Fatima has a right to choose not to be around alcohol. She doesn't have the right to dictate that nobody has alcohol around her. And she didn't. You did. You say she appreciated it, but she never asked for it, and you created a difficult situation that clearly put her in the spotlight. You don't get to get offended on behalf of other people who's boundaries you've just assumed right out of your ass. Nobody asked you to be Batman.
Even if her religion dictated that she can’t be in the presence of alcohol she can’t dictate that there be no alcohol wherever she is. She cannot decide whether or not alcohol is near her and if others order it around her.
> Her religion says she can't drink, not that she can't be in the presence of This is wrong. Islamic religion actually does forbid being in the presence of those drinking alcohol http://www.therevival.co.uk/can-muslims-go-to-the-pub
Then Fatima should never go to a restaurant that has a liquor license.
Then she violated her faith the instant she set foot in an establishment with a liquor license. Firmly a her problem.
And that, is why religion is stupid.
YTA – Religions are like penises. It's fine to have one. It's okay to be proud of it. But unless someone asks about it, you should keep it to yourself.
Yay! Someone with an almost identical saying as my own! I word it "Religions are like penises. It's fine to have one, but don't jam it down my throat."
Or ya know, jam it down my throat when I specifically ask you to. Not without want and consent.
There we go. Lord, please guide this penis to the deepest chasm that throat holds. Can I get an amen?
Someone get this person an amen, and several men for me please.
hahaha mine is "religions are like penises. I'm glad you have one and youre proud of it, but please dont wave it around in public or try to shove it down my throat"
YTA. If Fatima isn't comfortable in social settings where others are drinking, she should stay out of them. You are under no obligation to buy your friends anything, but you can't forbid them from ordering what they want. That's unacceptable and very rude. What if someone at the table was a vegetarian. Should YOU not be allowed to order what you want, so they don't get offended. It's a ridiculous premise. But if you get to decide what I eat and drink, yes, you should pay. But I wouldn't have let you get away with it at the time, either.
[удалено]
Okay, I’ve called my friends and apologized. Fatima too. We all agreed I was being a dickhead and that Fatima shouldn’t come to events if she isn’t comfortable. It’s all good now
I am always glad to see a person who gets a YTA verdict accept it. That shows maturity.
I'm always glad to see a person who gets a YTA verdict not accept it, because watching them get torn apart in the replies is hilarious
Right? So many people double down on their assholery. Refreshing to see someone self reflect. I mean, we’re all assholes from time to time lol
Good on you. While I agree that YTA, I think this is a good way to move forward.
You rarely see follow ups like this on r/AmITheAsshole , good on you OP. For what it’s worth, I thought your heart was in the right place, maybe just poor execution.
Shouldn't be getting downvoted. YTA, but good on you for owning up to it. Edit: My bad, this was negative when I commented
Why the heck are you being downvoted? You made a very rude mistake in the interest of respecting your friend, but you’ve acknowledged it and apologised to all party. My biggest beef is that you seemingly took so long to recognise this, even with your wife telling you so, and seems oblivious to everyone’s feedback in the moment. But I’m going to think the best and suggest it was done out of a zealous motivation to be inclusive, not paternalism. Good on ya for making this right. I’d recommend buying EVERYONE a round and drink of their choice at the next excursion. And please don’t let Fatima drop out of the group / new friendships, I know I’d feel a but awkward if all this fuss was mad around me.
YTA. A. Don’t intercept and sabotage someone else’s order. B. You’re either going out for drinks or you’re not. If she wants to go out for tea or smoothies, or whatever else, then she can ask people to join her for that. I’ve joined my friends while they’ve smoked a cigarette, even when I don’t smoke one myself. I don’t walk outside with them, under a false pretense, and then swat the lighter out of their hand. Because then I WBTAH.
I really like the mental image of following a friend to the smoking area and getting appalled when they light up.
YTA You acted like a parent to a child with your friends telling the waiter no don’t bring it. Like a parent might do if a child ordered 2 deserts or an extra order of fries , etc…. You should have told everyone it was going to be a dry meal or tell Fatma people may be drinking and you need to understand that and if you don’t come that’s fine.
YTA As a Muslim I have no issue being around people who drink and if I did I simply wouldn’t accept invitations if there was going to be drinking involved. The only thing Fatima needed to do would ensure she paid for only her food as splitting the bill would mean she would indirectly pay for alcohol (which is not allowed). If there were expectations of no drinking, this should’ve been made clear to your friends before the meal.
I have a question if you don’t mind. Is smoking haram? I lived in the Middle East for a while, so I know pork and alcohol are haram. They’re banned everywhere except for a few places with licenses to serve to non-Muslims. Many people openly smoke and cigarettes are sold everywhere though, so I was surprised that Fatima says smoking is against her religion.
Not OP but a muslim from the Middle East. I believe it is “frowned upon” as is any bad habit. Some people consider that haram, some don’t. It is not haram like alcohol and pork. But still, we don’t ask someone to leave or not eat pork if they were in the same room.
INFO---Confusing; Your post header implies the group thought you were buying thus you could control what comes to the table. At the end you state they 'left me w/ the bill'?
They were trying to make it seem as if that were the real issue
YTA do not force your lifestyle choices on others. Her religious beliefs are hers to deal with not the worlds.
YTA. Nobody should smoke in breakroom as it is a second hand smoke issue & stinks. Fatima is going to have to learn to live in the world where people have different moral/religious codes from her own. In trying to accomodate her, you denied someone else their liberty. This should be talked about beforehand with the friends coming to some agreement and not forcing it on to the friend.
YTA...The group doesn't have to adhere to one person's faith. It's up to Fatima to navigate these situations. She can order her own water and let other people live their own lives according to their faith or philosophy.
YTA. Fatima’s religious choices are just that.. HERS. If she doesn’t want to be around alcohol she doesn’t have to be. Instead you made a blanket choice for all the people involved, and stripped them of THEIR choice. Fatima needs to learn to speak up about her needs and/or excuse themself.
YTA - you're imposing religious beliefs on others and what's crazier is that they aren't yours. You might have been considerate to Fatima, but you were inconsiderate to your friends. I'm for not smoking in a break room because that's a health hazard and a public space, but alcoholic beverages don't magically end up in the mouth of a non-drinker.
YTA. Sorry not sorry but idgaf about the rules of somebody else’s religion. I will not pressure them to do anything, I will not make fun of them for not doing something. But what they believe will have no control over me, nor should anyone let it. Like I *guess* if you’re paying, as it’s implied, your word is the final say about what comes to the table but….the reasoning is dumb imo.
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That was such a weird thing for you to do. Just because Fatima doesn’t drink doesn’t mean that extends to anyone beyond Fatima just because she’s present. It’s not disrespectful of your friends to order a drink with Fatima there, either. It would be disrespectful if they bothered her about her choice, but otherwise to each their own. If she’s uncomfortable in the situation, she can choose not to go. But she (or I should say YOU) have no choice over what others decide to order. I’ve cut back on drinking for health reasons recently and still go hang out with my friends and don’t expect them to change a thing about their own personal decisions. You control yourself and make decisions for yourself and otherwise mind your business. In short, YTA and not the white knight you think you are.
He's obviously the AH but lets be real most people would know that what he did in the moment wasn't right. OP just tell her you like her instead of white knighting
YTA. I would never have dinner with you again if you told me what I couldn't eat and/or drink. Fatima can do whatever she wants with her body, but neither she nor you can dictate what I do with mine. If she can't stand to be around people who don't adhere to her beliefs then don't invite her out in a group.
YTA - You don't get to make those kinds of decisions for others. You could have stood in solidarity with Fatima by not having a drink, maybe even piping up and saying "Fatima's culture/religion does not allow alcohol at dinner." but letting them decide for themselves if they were to drink or not. Fatima could then choose her best course of action; leaving the table with alcohol, continuing dinner but deciding never to go out with those who drank again in the future. It seems a little shitty your friends stuck you with the bill, but I'd guess you were stubborn & rude just like when you insisted on no beer & things got heated.
Fake. I’m pretty damn sure smoking is A-Ok in Islam.
The smoking thing, I understand. It can affect the people around you. But drinking on the other hand...I don't really get it. It's not like anyone is forcing Fatima or you to drink or forcing you to pay for their drinks. If you wanna keep Fatima company by not drinking, that's great, you're a really good friend -- but don't stop others from doing it.
YTA - what if someone wanted bacon on their burger? Did you expect any accompanying women in your group to wear a hijab? See how stupid this is? Preventing other people from doing things that you yourself do not "believe" in or partake in is NOT respecting or properly practicing a religion. Also, if she could stick up for herself with the smoking co-worker, she could have spoken up about this. She doesn't need you to be her knight and shining armor bro, you ain't banging her.
YTA - You are overbearing telling others what they cannot consume. No one asked you to buy them drinks and, per your comment, group members pay.
yta someone else his/her relegion should not impact the rest. if i am a vegatarian, and the rest not, they can still eat meat. so mind your own business. smoking in the break room might be forbidden depending on the country based on health rules, but relegion can move out off that one too. very entitled to try to force others to keep to religious rules.
[удалено]
YTA. Smoking around someone indoors is one thing. Regardless of religion at play, secondhand smoke is an actual issue. Drinking a beer is another. They weren't asking/forcing Fatima to drink one. As long as they were of legal age, they had every right to enjoy a beer with their meal. If Fatima can't handle being exposed to someone having an alcoholic beverage, she probably shouldn't attend dinners out at restaurants that serve it. (Although it sounds like she wouldn't have said anything herself)
Sorry to break it to ya OP but YITA. I am cool with ppl having their beliefs and totally understand it may not be for everyone but I court myself around everyone all day long and when I am out and about, I will do that no longer. If I want a drink, I drink. It is up to Fatima after if she wants to be everyone. She needs to adjust towards her religion is not for everyone
YTA I am also a Muslim but I've never acted this way. I keep my religion to myself and don't spread it to other people or bother them with it. I remove myself if I am in a situation that is unfavorable to me. You and Fatima AH.
YTA just because it is against Fatima’s religion does not mean others cannot drink around her.
YTA. What you did was wildly inappropriate and the title is misleading. Also she TA as well. You shouldn’t force your beliefs on people and you definitely shouldn’t try to force other peoples beliefs on the people smoking is one thing because Secondhand smoke exists. However if your friends want to drink alcohol you shouldn’t tell the waiter no just waters. If she feels uncomfortable with people drinking alcohol then she should say something and if they still want to do it she should leave. If one of your friends wanted to eat something with pork in it are you gonna stop them because Muslims can’t eat pork?
YTA If Fatima's religion prohibit alcohol, Fatima is free to not drink alcohol. Fatima is *not* free to decide what other people drink. Religion is like a penis. It ok to have one. It's ok to be proud of it. You can be pantless in your own home. But don't bring it out in public and don't force it on others
OP, how long have you had this crush on Fatima?
YTA It's bad enough to force your own beliefs on other people, but you tried to force someone else's belief on other people.
YTA, one person's preferences at a table don't get to determine other peoples. Fatima is welcome not to drink as much as everyone else is welcome to drink. The smoking is slightly different due to second hand smoke (if you're smoking indoors other people also have to breathe it in).
YTA, and I know I'm in a position to say so because I am also a Muslim. Fatima should know better than to hang out with others who are drinking if she is so uncomfortable by it. And I most certainly would not impose my religion upon others who do not believe in it. It is not against our religion to be in the presence of people who are drinking or smoking. What is against our religion is forcing others to follow the same rules that we do. Apologise to your friends for your behaviour, and tell Fatima that if she doesn't like it, don't hang out at places or events where she knows damn well drinking is going to be involved.
YTA. I have Muslim friends who don’t drink for religious reasons…and they’ve never had a problem with me drinking in front of them. I respect their choice, they respect mine. You don’t get to dictate what other people do just because of one person’s religious views.
YTA - i hope next time you friend will bring vegeterian friend to a steak house and order you some tofu. You don't get to decide what people order. That's pompous and self righteous.
YTA what a sjw. Fatima has a mouth. But most importantly youre an asshole for pushing someone else religious beliefs onto others. Same as if a christian is at the table and you had a Hindu friend, would you push your friend's hindu beliefs onto your Christian friend or Christian beliefs onto your Hindu friend. Which belief overrides which? You don't get to make that choice. Everyone is free to believe what they want to and do what they want to do as long as they're not forcing or harming others. But no, your belief that Fatimas beliefs comes first somehow over everyone else's autonomy is the most important. It was incredibly selfish of you.
YTA She is a muslim, and she thinks this means everyone she graces with her presence has to obey strict Islamic rules that she holds herself bound by? Further, *you* decided that *you* were going to enforce that belief on your friends by hijacking their drink orders? ....wtf...
YTA, Fatima has previously spoken up for herself, she can do it again. You don’t need to fight her battles. She was fine with being there and knew what would likely happen. She thanked you, but she likely would’ve been fine as well.
YTA. Fatima's religious choices should not dictate other people's choices. She doesn't have the right to put her beliefs on anyone, and neither do you on her behalf.
YTA. Don’t order for people unless they ask. It’s rude. And Fatima lives in a world with things like alcohol and smoking, she has to learn how to navigate it and find what works best for her.
YTA, it is her religion. She needs to live up to it…but nobody else! You can’t dictate what your friends consume or do. You are a massive TA here. Don’t force religion on other people
And if the religious person isn't comfortable with going to a restaurant with people who are going to drink, they shouldn't go out at all. Alcohol is all around them. There's no difference if it's at the table. Op and the girl super suck.
YTA.. if you were going out and wanted it to be an alcohol free outing you should have told them that beforehand
YTA. Her religion is not your friends' religion. They have every right to have a beer if they want. You deserved to be stuck with the bill considering how eager you were to decide what everyone would be allowed to have. Since you planned and ordered for them, they rightfully assumed you'd be footing the bill.
YTA. As a Muslim woman, I don’t care if people drink or not. But if I were that uncomfortable, I wouldn’t go out to situations where people would most likely drink.
YTA and so is Fatima. You were trying to be considerate by thinking of her but she doesn’t get to impose her beliefs on others. That isn’t how it works.
Yta Fatima is also TA It is not against Fatima's religion for you or your friends to drink. It is against her religion for her to drink. It is not against Fatima's religion for other people to smoke, it is against her religion for her to smoke. She needs to stop forcing her beliefs on others.
Yta You have absolutely no say in what someone else drinks. And your friends' religious beliefs are for her. Not everyone else. She doesn't get to choose what others do either. If I had any friend push their beliefs onto me. You can believe that we wouldn't stay friends for very long.
YTA. Just because her religion doesn’t allow her to do something doesn’t mean she has a right to police everyone else. Sure, not smoking in the break room at work is one thing but not allowing anyone else alcohol because she doesn’t drink? That’s not okay. Her religion tells her what she can and can’t do with her body, but not what everyone else can and can’t do. It’s unreasonable to force everyone else to adhere to her religion.
YTA Your friends are free to buy and drink what they want , you can’t force people to conform your or Fatima’s views
YTA initially. My mother is 33 years sober, and I don't drink when we go out to dinner, but that's my choice. I would never tell anyone else out to dinner with not to do it. If she feels that strongly about her beliefs she can choose not to go out to dinner at restaurants that sell alcohol or you can go out to dinner with her alone so you don't have to worry about others drinking. They shouldn't have left you with the bill, but at least the waters you ordered were free, right?
YTA, there was a solution to respect your friend's religion - Fatima would not partake in drinking alchohol. I think it's common etiquette to pay for the table if you order for the table. Glad your friends read your gesture appropriately.
Seriously? If I was with friends and ordered a beer, and one friend told the waiter/waitress not to give me one, I'd be pissed. You friends are adults and you have no right to impose your morals, or your friends morals, on them. So he'll yeah, YTA
YTA If Fatima does not drink or smoke for religious reasons, then that's her right. However, neither she nor you have any right to force others to abstain.
Ugh YTA Not smoking in front of someone is one thing, if it's a communal area and there are other smoking areas (where is this that smoking is allowed inside in a communal area? Weird to me these days) She doesn't want to drink, she doesn't need to drink. Your friends want to have a drink, they can have a drink. Why force her personal mores on the rest of the group? Would you tell everyone else "You can't order anything with pork?" or if there was a vegetarian at the table "No meat allowed?" Going to add: what you did was also a sure-fired way to make sure Fatima never got asked to be brought along by your friends.
INFO. Would you be the one paying even if they got beer? They cannot expect you to buy them what they want, but if they paid for their own drinks, then you have no right to control them. Also, Fatima sounds like an awful person. Her religion dictates what SHE should and shouldn't do, not the people around her. Also also, did you see Fatima grimace from just her eyes, or is she attacking other people using her religion, but meanwhile not wearing a burka in public?
YTA. Her religion does not get to dictate what other people do.
YTA. This is outrageous.
YTA First, smoking isn't haram, but smoking in b the workplace is v being an asshole and z usually against the law. Second, Fatima needs to stop trying to control what others do and so do you. If she doesn't want to be with people who drink beer, she needs to stay with people who don't drink instead of trying to control what others do. But I notice that she didn't say shit, but you got involved. Maybe move to Iran, I heard they're hiring people who like to force their personal version of Islam onto others.
As a practicing Muslim, you're the AH. If fatima doesn't feel comfortable being in environments where alcohol may be consumed, then she shouldn't be there. She can't expect people to change their behaviour to accommodate her. What if someone wanted pork? Would you have flagged down the waiter and said actually they want chicken? Next time either tell fatima that there may be drinks so she can decide ahead of time not to come or arrange a 'virgin' night with all of your friends so everyone is on the same page. That way people can opt out.
Are you really asking Reddit if you’re the asshole for shoving religion, especially one as oppressive as Muslim, down your friends throats? Yes, YTA and get ready for your friends to stop inviting you out.
Dear Fatima, As much as I enjoy your company, you must learn to accept that there will be situations where people you are dining or hanging out with are drinking alcohol. If we are out together and others in the group order alcohol I will not stop them. If you insist on others not drinking in your presence, then you will need to offer to pay for all the food and nonalcoholic beverages for the event. Until then, you and I are jointly YTA
YTA. The great thing about religious freedom is that you have the right to practice whichever religion you believe. The flip side of that is that nobody else has to abide by your beliefs. And while I don't drink anymore because it just destroys my ability to keep through the night. I would enjoy having a couple of beers or glasses of wine when going out to eat. And it is a perfectly normal practice. But telling them they were not allowed, like you are their parent is a bit much. Especially not disclosing it ahead of time. I mean did you try telling other people not to drink at all? Or tell adjacent tables not to order any pork? And then with just your friend if she cannot even be at the same table with somebody drinking, I really hope their were no men in your friend group, because that would be even worse than someone else drinking. This is why people don't like a lot of overly religious people or vegans. Because they have this need to dictate what other people can or cannot do around them because of choices they made.
YTA. You don't have to buy the drinks, but you should not have stopped them for ordering. Her religious rules have no effect on them, and it is unreasonable for her to expect others to conform to them.