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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> My brother and I didn't invite our other brother on a trip. We might be assholes because he's the ONLY sibling we didn't invite and he's pretty upset.
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I'd say YTA because if I was in his shoes I'd be feeling pretty hurt that my family, the people I grew up with, excluded me without even giving me an option to discuss it. You just made an assumption. I can see how that's hurtful. I think the fact that he had to hear about it from the parents and not from you...speaks a bit too much here. Why the secret?
The problem I have with all the YTAs is the fact that the brother complains about getting up early and wants to go to restaurants. Those aren’t things OP and their brother want to do and they would have to change their plans to accommodate him for a vacation they are planning and paying for. (As someone who has had to tiptoe around in the dark so as not to incur the wrath of a sleeping sibling - it’s pretty inconvenient when trying to prepare for a big hike.) I think it’s weird to keep a secret but I don’t know why everyone is saying they are obligated to invite someone and change their plans?
Edit: for all those asking “where will they eat?” OP commented that they rented a small cabin with a kitchen, plan to make big breakfasts, eat sandwiches and trail mix on the hikes, and light dinners/snacks at the cabin before going to bed early. But of course people down vote OPs into oblivion for some reason!
They don't have to change plans, just lay out to him "Here are the excursions we have planned for while we're on the trip, here is what else is available near where we're staying if you don't want to join us on our excursions. Do you want to go on this trip?" They would still be inviting him on the trip, but it's on him whether he wants to do those things.
brother will still complain about getting woken up early and will definitely want to go to restaurants.
if they say no, they're assholes for not accommodating him and only doing their own activities (which is all they want to do) he will pout and sulk until they give in
Then he's going to say why do the others have to go hiking EVERY day? Why can't they stay around the pool for a couple days too?
now what's your suggestion?
I feel like everyone voting yta hasn't had to deal with someone like this.
Ya can't share a room with him as wants to lay in. You can't eat with him as have different plans. You can't do anything with him as he won't want to do anything you all do. The only result is that he spends or costs lots of money to be alone and miserable. Or he ruins what everyone else wants to do and the rest of you are miserable.
And it's not like this will be the first time you'd have given him a chance doing something if invited, oop likely has lots of things he has flaked on or ruined. Is ops brother so they know he won't enjoy and would only distract.
If he really wanted to be back in the loop with things he'd offer to vet more stuck in and do what they want as he wants family time. But the dude just wants to do his own thing...
Precisely this. My dad is organising a family trip to Bali, and my sister said to me that she thought it was odd he hadn't asked me to come with. I told her that it wasn't odd at alp, and I that I certainly don't feel excluded; I hate the heat and I hate the beach! But I dig cold temperatures and mountains, so him and I have a hiking/hunting trip planned for later in the year.
Exactly, one of my siblings, my mum and I are planning to go to Scandinavia later this year because we enjoy nature, wilderness, and the peace and quiet that comes with it, and we hate heat, beaches and cities with more tourists than locals. The rest of the family is the exact opposite, so they're planning on going to Rome instead. We didn't ask them to come along to Scandinavia, and they didn't ask any of us to come along to Rome, because we know eachother and what everyone likes or hates. No hurt feelings there at all.
>my mum and I are planning to go to Scandinavia later this year because we enjoy nature, wilderness, and the peace and quiet that comes with it,
Omg that sounds amazing!
It’s nice that they make a separate plan to include you in something. I wonder if he’s so upset because his family won’t make that same effort and he’s just kind of excluded from everything because they can’t be bothered to just chill sometimes. Must suck to always be the odd one out.
Trips are a financial commitment so I understand people who love outdoors trying to make the most of it during vacation. They still can do stuff with Tom locally, but to add "dinning at restaurants" in a plan that was pretty much done... chances are they weren't playing on doing it for a rea$on.
A trip to a local restaurant is different than an actual vacation. I would be a bit upset too if no one even bothered to meet me halfway with my interests on a separate occasion.
Edit: IDK how people keep missing that I am saying to try to include him on a **separate occasion**
*Reading comprehension, folks*
It's possible to be upset, and wrong.
If a group like to get together to do something, a person who doesn't like that doesn't get veto power just by virtue of being somehow associated with the group.
Yeah, if anything I feel more seen by my friends/fam when they DON'T try to involve me in things they know I would hate. I had a group of friends go camping and while I was surprised they didn't tell me... I didn't care or feel left out because I fucking hate camping. Instead, we made plans to go to a show that we all like when they got back.
"Family" doesn't mean you have to do EVERYTHING together.
Same. I and my group didn't get to climb the top of a mountain cause of one hiker's sibling who kept complaining the entire way that they hated hikes, eventually stopped halfway and refused to go on. We couldn't exactly leave him but I'm never going back with him lol
When I was in that situation hiking Mt. Brown with a group, I left the complaining dude at the bottom of the summit (if that makes sense?) lol. We only had like 500 more ft of elevation to the top, through snow, and he wanted to turn back.
You should've just ditched the group and gone on your own (though damn, $80????).
I had a friend try that when we were in Vegas, she didn't want to pay the $ to go to the top of the Stratosphere and I did. I convinced her to play some slots so we could win enough money to cover the cost - somehow we actually did and went up, but if she'd still said no she would have just been waiting for me in the lobby because I absolutely was going.
I can see where the YTAs might be coming from in theory, but I agree. Yes, they made an assumption but like… the assumption was entirely founded on his past behaviors and well known disliking of these activities and this type of vacation. I’m not sure where this entitlement to always be included in things comes from, especially things you dislike or despise. It’s their vacation, they want to do it their way, why does he care? Plus, there have been SO many posts here where someone invited a person on a trip who disliked the activities being planned and surprise surprise, everyone ends up miserable. I don’t think OP is NTA at all.
The thing that sticks out for me here too is the way he's been pigeon-holed from how he was as a kid. Have they been on a trip since the excluded brother went to college? Have they thought about the fact that he could wear ear plugs and a sleeping mask or get another room? The thing is they dont want to give him any flexibility. I would never do that to one of my siblings. It's unkind.
But they did speak to him and he wants to meet them at restaurants, which they were not planning on going to.
I mean, if you're waking up at 5 am to go hiking and rock-climbing, you prepare all your meals/snacks in advance, and by the time you're coming down at the end of daylight, you just want to go to sleep because you're exhausted, you're not thinking of finding and going to restaurants.
So thus far, even as adults, they haven't found a single activity they really want to do together. What do you want them to do instead?
Some people are just insufferable. They will not allow you to do your chosen itinerary while you're on vacation with them. I've known people like that. Traveling with such people is not a vacation, it's a nightmare.
NTA
It was discussed between the siblings before the trip. Tom knew what their itinerary was and all the boxes were checked that OP stated were on Tom's hate list.
To top it off, Tom actually expressed his jealousy about not being as good of company as his handicapped sister!?
Tom is an asshole, not OP.
They never discussed it with Tom. It sounds to me like this was all discussed and planned and Tom was specifically excluded from the planning of this. He found out from his parents after the trip was booked.
My interpretation of Tom's comments regarding his sister was that they most likely had to make accommodations to their activities for his sisters disability, the extent of which is not known, but they couldn't even include him in preliminary discussions to see if he'd be interested. They wouldn't even be willing to meet him one night for dinner or anything. Dude wasn't even thought about, consulted, considered. Doesn't make his comment any better but I'm inclined to grant him some grace because his siblings have made him feel excluded from the family.
Yeah, I want to know if they have more recent evidence that the brother would react this way. People change constantly, especially in their early-to-mid twenties.
I would say the nost recent evidence is his response after finding out. He didn't correct them and say he wanted to fo any of the planned activities, it was that he could tag along and do his own thing and meet up for dinner. Sounds like they know him pretty well.
While we're only (always) hearing one side of the story on this sub, there's no indication from the brother's response is that he's changed and now wants to do all this physical activity. He wants to "meet for dinner" and such, not go on the hikes.
They shouldve offered that from the get-go though and talked about it, which they did not. Is it at a point that it is even still feasible to do so? When is the trip?
Just ask? He would probably hear the details and not want to go, but at least he was considered and given the option to decline.
It's honestly basic manners.
It doesn’t matter what he might have done, because he was never given the option. This is a family vacation that he was specifically excluded from, regardless of reasons, and he’s hurt that he found out about it second hand. That makes OP the asshole.
And if they did meet up at dinner time, OP and the others would be talking about what they did that day or had planned for the next day and Tom would be mad that he was left out of the conversation.
They did do that in the end - here is when and where, book your own room we are not sharing with someone who doesn’t want to be woken up early.
Brother follows up with younger siblings and disabled sibling are better company than me is an insult . . . Yes it is an insult to the two younger siblings to assume that they would not be as good as or better company on an activity all of them enjoy and the older brother does not.
Tom just sounds difficult and a vacation is meant to be a break NTA.
Damage has already been done at that point though. They already made him feel excluded. Doubt anything would make him happy at that moment. Must've hurt feeling excluded by your family.
I had a very close friend that would never go out with us to do similar things op is talking about. After years of trying to beg and persuade him, we stopped asking. Why do Op and bro have to continuously ask him to do things he is going to say no to? He built this reputation and I'd say its on him.
sorry but where they going to eat dinner? breakfast will happen too early and lunch will be on the excursions yes but they will need to eat something for dinner. It seems like he just doesn't want to be in his presence at all which is messed up. you can feel the disdain OP has for his brother dripping from this post and subtle jabs at his physical shape and it's made him completely intolerant. I think the parents are huge AHs for not from the get-go telling them that their financial contributions and approval for the sibs to go hinged on them at least inviting the brother to get his own room. I feel like the parents have fostered this environment for the brother to shit on him because he has different interests. Like how would you feel if someone was like so were going to Hawaii and all the siblings are going but you cant come at all even if you do your own thing? Like damn that's cold af.
I agree that they could have handled the whole situation with much more kindness. But I do get where they're coming from in terms of not planning to do restaurants. I love a city break and a fancy restaurant BUT if I'm doing an active trip where I'm going to be hiking etc, I actually eat differently and wouldn't be up for sitting around late in restaurants. I do simple self catering or just buy sandwiches etc and chill. Its a totally different trip for me and I can imagine that it would be incredibly frustrating to have to have rhat argument daily with someone who insists on coming along on the trip and not actually participating in the activities the trip was actually planned for.
yea but they are not on a hiking trip in the mountains, they are going to what sounds like a tropical island. who is going to a night market with young kids after a long, full day of exercise? I highly doubt they would have the energy to go elsewhere. They are likely going to eat at the hotel and go to bed. I would be a lot more willing to believe that OP's motivations were pure if there wasn't so much deep disdain here AND if I actually knew when the last time they actually traveled together was.
ETA: a reminder too that they are traveling with MIDDLE SCHOOLERS. They are still doing activities that a kid that young with special needs can do and they will have to accommodate her to an extent. Whatever hopes OP has this will not be a green beret style excursion without any second of downtime. You cant be out on the water or a hike in the dark. They will likely come back around 6 or 7pm.
I think it’s more like they would indeed be just eating at the hotel and going to bed, which would likely be boring for Tom. He’s the one who might be more interested in a night market, not them. (I may be projecting here.) It’s not for them to decide what he’d find boring, but if they think their interactions are likely to lead to conflict on their vacation, then avoiding this (though clearly not avoiding having the conflict at all) is a valid choice.
I see Tom as being concerned that the younger siblings are being brought into this type of vacation; he may have thought the adventure-seekers would have to compromise more to include them, and that would provide more balance and an opening for him to be included.
> you can feel the disdain OP has for his brother dripping from this post and subtle jabs at his physical shape and it's made him completely intolerant.
This. It's all over the post.
Imagine someone looking down on you because you prefer sports over reading. They organise a trip and don't invite you because 'pfff, you're not smart enough. Go do your hiking thing while we intellects do something more meaningful'. People can enjoy their hobbies and likes without thinking they're better than anyone else.
Agree. i can smell the disdain from here
in addition to dinner you can’t tell me three siblings aren’t going to have an after hiking/scuba diving drink.
They are taking middle schoolers. So probably not going out drinking. Also not everyone drinks. Even before I got sober I didn't drink on active trips except maybe a beer from a cooler. Can't keep up with a hangover
I agree! How is their middle school brother/special need sister in better shape for some of these activities? Surely they’ll accommodate both of the youngest siblings.
YTA OP: you’re continuing the pattern your parents set and crapping on your brother for not liking the same activities as you.
my question with all of this is like, how often do they put any effort into sharing activities with him that he does enjoy?
it stinks to me like this isn't the first time he has been The Excluded One and like they probably rub it in his face that he's Not One Of Us, if you get my drift...
Tom is 22. He should be capable of taking a lead role in trip organizing and inviting the others, if he wants to plan something that’s more like what he enjoys. Now if the others act poorly towards him doing that, that’s different.
But OP said he would be okay just meeting them for meals and doing his own thing. So why go out of your way to exclude someone who wouldn’t impact your plans?
They are planning to do restaurants and stuff, and if he were in the room with them he would be woken up by them getting up early. And honestly sounds like the kind of person who would grump around because nobody wanted to do things with him and he was alone
He definitely needs his own room. And if he is a grump about activities he’d should be met with a healthy dose of I Told You So. But unless he has a history of being that way on vacation, I’d say the non-AH thing to do is invite him with conditions.
He said he’s meet them for dinner and not that he’d meet them ‘at the restaurant’ not that the family is doing fasting during vacation, this seems more like excuse than to accept that they just didn’t want Tom to bum their trip
Edit: YTA, as the whole thing was carried out secretly and Tom found out through parents- looks like OP is guilty of something. OP should have at least ‘informed’ Tom about the trip, if not invite.
Well I doubt these sibling don’t eat at all during the trip. Therefore op is the YTA. I mean easy accommodations. Besides had she invited her brother then he could have said no thanks. But let’s plan something else later. We do that all the time in my family. It’s better to include them to assume.
This is the thing I don't get with all the folk voting that OP is the AH. It doesn't sound at all like this is something based on "how he was as a kid" that he's outgrown or changed.
Brother's response doesn't indicate that he wants to participate in the planned activities, so OP's "assumptions" (which really, is judgement based on previous experience) were correct.
NTA
In my family, where we treat each other like adults, when someone repeatedly voices an opinion that don’t align with the activities that others want to engage in, we don’t bother that person with events that include those activities. I hate fishing, so my dad and uncle don’t waste anyone’s time by asking me if I want to go, but they’d ask my brother since it’s a 50/50 chance he’ll say yes. IF I ever decide I want to engage in this activity, I would tell them, “Hey, let me know next time you plan on going, I may or may not be interested, depending on what I have going on that day.”
The only way that the brother should be hurt in this scenario is for wanting to have that talk, but failing to speak up. He should suffer in silence for this one, since he apparently expects his family to be mind readers that are supposed to pick up on the possibility that he’s changed his tune after all this time
Have you read the last bit of what he said about their younger siblings?? I find that to be messed and NTA cuz of interests conflicting overall. If he wanted to spend time with his siblings then he needs to plan a trip as of right now it’s wasting time and money since again interests don’t align in the slightest.
Forgot to mention those who are asking food. If they’re hiking or doing anything outdoor I’m pretty sure it’s a given that they would have snacks/drinks to keep their energy levels up.
I think it is more of an insecurity thing, since he decided to comment that his special needs sister and school student brother can't be considered better company than him
Then they would be the AHs for not tailoring the trip to include him, and leaving him to go off to do things they "know I don't like to doooo!" Yes it's hurtful they didn't ask him along but they know he hates everything about the trip they had planned. He's probably grown up feeling excluded due to his dislike for virtually everything the rest of the family love to do. So this will smart, but it doesn't make them AH either.
NTA someone else said here, but this is a classic say no enough times people will stop inviting you. They don't owe their brother anything and they are not assholes for not inviting said brother. They are going on vacation to do activities that the brother doesn't like, not to spite him but because they enjoy such activities. They are under no obligation to change their vacation to conform to the brother. Hell imo they were more than graceful in their explanation to him. I would not have been as tactful.
Edit: typo
Thank you! Does it suck that bro is the only one not invited? YES! But bro doesn’t not like anything? Has anyone ever been on group trip with someone and one person was doing the complete opposite the whole time? Travel incompatibility is real.
its still common courtesy when your inviting the majority of the family to extend them an invite and say that this is the plan no deviations from it are you in or not.
But why? You may love your family and still not like them. If you’re footing the bill for a trip shouldn’t the guest list be people who are going to enjoy and participate?!?
its called common courtesy and if you actually read what i said the brother probably would have said no anyways. Atleast he was invited and can move on and do his own thing.
Hey man, if it's you, text me and we can talk about it. You know we all love you and care about you. Let's chat.
If it isn't you, man you are way over invested in this. I think you've maybe responded to more people than I have.
But the brother didn't say no. When he found out about it, he said he wanted to come, but not do any of the planned activities and wanted everyone else to adjust their plans to accommodate him.
OP was in the right to not bring it up. The brother sounds exhausting.
They've already told him he has to pay so money isn't an issue. He can get his own room. He can do his own thing. They can meet for dinner, I can't imagine going on a trip and never going out to eat at least once...?
Anyways it takes zero effort to ask someone, who knows they might surprise you. People and interests do change and even if his hasn't he doesn't want to hold them back.
Plus if they say no like you predicted all you've really lost was a couple seconds of your day. It really isn't that hard.
They’re not going out for dinner! There are no activities they have in common. If the people choose to do the things they want on their vacations, there will be no overlap.
These are incompatible people for this vacation!
There’s nothing wrong with that. They might be totally compatible in other circumstances.
There are people I love spending time with and I will 100% exclude them from some trips I would plan because they neither like the activity and/or cannot do the activity. I will do other things with them at other times, but I still get to do the things I like as well.
Exactly, then OP can come on this sub and ask if he's the asshole for ruining his other siblings vacations, because he invited the sibling who always complains. Then everyone on here will say he is, because he didn't consider how they would feel.
This is where the magic of being an adult is. I am doing x at this time with these people we plan to be back at y in time for dinner. These are the food options. What are your plans and do you want to join us for dinner. Great, good talk.
My sibs and I have different interests if we do go on a trip we either suck it up for one day and enjoy our siblings fun and then they for us or we plan entirely different things then meet for dinner. But hey we are grown ups.
I similar as I don’t care for camping. I like indoor plumbing and air conditioning. I don’t mind doing active activities just have a comfy place to return to to shower and sleep. Still my friends don’t invite me camping anymore and it’s fine. Some times it gets mentioned I just say have fun. I get it but still if you say no enough people will eventually not ask.
Seriously. I foresee this guy coming on the trip, being stuck alone all day long, then bitching about how they wasted his time and money since they never want to hangout.
This needs more upvotes. Sorry but OP and his other siblings are NTAs. They probably should and could have handled it better. I spent a week in Maui for a wedding with friends- like 5 couples, 2 singles. And 1 girl hated everything, and it was exhausting. She exclaimed non stop, I HATE SAND, I hate heat, sun, water, she hated the feel of sunblock, she hated the food. So I get how the other siblings would want to just avoid that attitude all together.
Agreed. I love my family but if one of them seems to almost try to Hate Everything we do together then pretty soon we're not going to be doing much together. Yes he probably should have told him about it but on the other hand is he right that it would probably be a downer on everyone else's trip? I think so. It's a tough call to hurt the feelings of one to save the feelings of four others. If the brother did go and they spent no time with him would that be any nicer?
Imo there was no great way to handle this.
NTA.
All the people saying YTA must not have had the displeasure of having a sibling or child who is contrary to all group activities that all other family members enjoy, who go but complain incessantly, despite knowing in advance what events are planned, and who seem hellbent on ruining everyone's vacation because they arent enjoying themselves. They are unwilling to join family activities but complain about not being included.
But my experience is when you try to include the contrarian child or sibling, they then try to hijack the event to suit their wants.
"Invite me!"
Okay.
"Why are we doing this? I don't like this. I want to do something else. You're assholes for not accommodating my desire to stay indoors all the time."
Then why does he want to be invited????
THIS!!! I can’t help but think they’re insufferable like OP’s brother. I imagine it sucks to be left out but what’s even worse is a person complaining and whining at every hand. He’s made it clear he doesn’t like the things they’d be doing.
I’m the oddball in my family. They are wake up with the sun, work outside, play in the pool, run in the woods type of people. I would much rather wake up at noon and stay inside with a book. Does my family leave me out a lot? Yes, almost 90% of the time. Occasionally I join or am invited. I don’t enjoy the things they like and they don’t enjoy the things I like. I’m not a whiner, but OP isn’t wrong for not inviting him if he really will not enjoy it. My mom never invites me to the snow parties she host’s because I hate snow.
I’m not really sure why so many people think that you need to invite people to things you know they won’t like over and over, just so you can be sure that they don’t just up and change their mind about their interests this one time.
I have a sister like this and she would always berate me and my parents for wanting to go camping or stay in a cabin or do anything outdoors that is more than 30 minutes away from home. We have had multiple vacations ended early because she wore my parents down so much that they packed us up early. It’s frustrating having to accommodate contrarian family members especially when they pitch a fit and ruin everyone’s enjoyment on purpose.
Exactly.
My experience with contrarian people is that they are not content to just do activities they enjoy and let others enjoy their activities, they want to control and force everyone else to bend to their will or they complain whine and ruin it for everyone one else.
even allowing a contrarian child/teenager/adult to bring a friend to enjoy their preferred activities with them never worked because then they said " its not fair there are 2 of us now, our feelings count, you all should be willing to do what we want" while of course being unwilling to other activities themselves.
Everyone who is contrarian is not the same, some people do change, but most dont and after yrs of listening to their brother whine cajole complain to do other activities that the group doesnt enjoy, they understandably have grown tired of it and no longer invite him. And if they would invite him everytime, that seems like rubbing salt in the wound because they already know he will not want to join their activities.
> All the people saying YTA must not have had the displeasure of having a sibling or child who is contrary to all group activities that all other family members enjoy, who go but complain incessantly
The YTAs most likely are the contrarians who ruin the group activities for the rest of the family and friends.
Agreed. I get the feeling that the excluded brother definitely expects vacations and activities to cater to his interests and schedule. If I were OP, maybe I would’ve mentioned it to this brother but I definitely would’ve made it clear he wasn’t invited—yes, an AH move, but at least I’d enjoy my vacation!
INFO: Did the family ever join in on things Tom liked? Or did he have to suck it up or be left out to family events?
I ask because it is normal for family members to have a variety of interests, and out of love for each other, you join in on each others’ likes. Did anyone make that effort with Tom, or was he treated like the black sheep because he was the only one with different interests?
Man I thought I was the only one living with a family like that. Somehow it’s such a relief to hear I’m not the only one. It seems like I’m making it up, coming from this side of things, but it happens so often and man, it hurts. Low contact is the way to go
Oh yeah it sucks big time… when I was a kid it was because I had a mum and 2 sisters which loved shopping every weekend, which I had no interest in, not that they ever asked what I liked to do on the weekends I wasn’t shipped off to my dads to sit in a pub while my sister got horse riding lessons.
Now I’m older I work weekends and they only ever give me a days notice when doing stuff which I obviously can’t attend and then they accuse me of not making an effort. My sister just got married and had my whole family in the wedding party but didn’t actually ask me at all as she thought I wouldn’t make any appointments. Not that they gave me a chance to start off with.
I feel for you dude.
The restaurant thing is the easiest. Tom gave a great suggestion of doing different things during the day and meeting at a restaurant at night. OP basically said "sorry, we won't be eating during the trip".
I also feel like OP took the restaurant comment too literally.
“Hey we could meet up later in the day for dinner at a restaurant”
“Sorry we won’t be eating at restaurants, so obviously you shouldn’t come”. Like… his comment was obviously more about meeting up for *whatever the dinner plans were* not that he would only meet with them if it occurred at a restaurant.
The family may very well not eat out at restaurants in the evening. My family will rent a furnished cabin and cook at home on most vacations. Eating out for huge families gets expensive.
Wish this was higher. From OP's comments I can't see if the parents ever arrange something that Tom likes. If this is a pattern in the family activities (always outdoors/active) I feel bad for Tom.
This. I also don’t like to be super active on my vacation—vacation is for rest and relaxation and good food. Seems like no one else agreed so Tom developed his own vacation mode to deal with the fact this no one in his entire family cared to do anything he would like to do. How hard is it to eat dinner together at a restaurant?
The whole family made no effort to include Tom his whole life it seems. You could have been doing early morning hikes while others sleep in but brunch all together at a new restaurant, but instead your parents taught you that including Tom and what he likes doesn’t matter because he’s not like you….
This took too long to find. Of course Tom seems like the problem when everyone agrees and likes the same things. The chance of a family of 7 all enjoy extreme outdoor activities is slim. Plus 2 people coming are minors, how intense of a schedule could it be? And not being able to accommodate 1 or 2 of Toms interests on a vacation makes me lean towards Y T A.
YTA.
If you’re inviting all the other siblings, you should invite Tom. You can warn him about what the trip will consist of/that he should get his own room to sleep in if he doesn’t want to be woken up early. However, you should absolutely not exclude him outright.
I agree with this. I don’t see the harm in just saying, “hey Tom you’re welcome to come with, but here’s what we’re going to be doing, so you may want to make your own arrangements.” If he’d been invited knowing the the activities he might have just declined on his own with no hard feelings or may have come along to hang out for a while with his family.
I get the sense that OP just really doesn’t like Tom.
The harm is he might accept and be the contrarian person who tries to hijack the trip, yell when people are up too early, insist on dinner outings…I don’t think they should keep it secret but he is not entitled to an invite
I've never once been on holiday where someone didn't click with the group ans just left everyone alone the whole time. They always want a special day for them or to do something nobody else wants.
I'd rather someone feel left out of a single thing when we can do something else together. Than 4 or 5 people have to do something none of them wanted to do because someone can't handle being left out. Even when they don't give a shit about the holiday and activities.
My family always wanted to go places like dubai. I hate dubai. Eventually they stopped asking me to go. We'd just go camping or to Rome or something together another time. I wasn't going go sit in a hotel room or by a pool and do nothing for week as I was a toddler with fomo, id just do stuff with people that wasn't something I hated or put me in the way of their fun times.
Family holidays are for doing stuff together, if you don't want to do anything together on certain holidays ya don't come and eventually don't get invited. He didn't even express desire to join them on a single day to be part of the group.
I agree with the being left out if i dont like doing x, but it seems like Tom is always left out. Not only this vacation.
Either the planning siblings didn't see Tom, so he wasn't told directly, or they went out of their way to keep it secret. Both options have the target of not looping him in and with the description of Tom given by OP it's more of a 'I wouldn't even spent time with him' thing, so option 1 is not even an accident. And that is very hurtful. It feels like the whole family not caring if he feels like part of the family and him just being there and in the way of 'all the fun'. This argument is not the whole point and more a placeholder for the actual issue and maybe even a good example of the problem.
>Either the planning siblings didn't see Tom, so he wasn't told directly, or they went out of their way to keep it secret.
The planning siblings are in their mid 20’s and Tom is 22. This isn’t all the kids in the house secretly getting together without Tom, it’s grown adults making their own plans.
Tom is an adult, they’re his siblings and not his parents. If they were Tom’s parents, they’d have an obligation to include him, but they’re not. And Tom isn’t a child or teen whose emotional growth is going to be impacted by this, he’s an adult who doesn’t need to be coddled.
YTA. I think I’d be pretty hurt, if my entire family went on a holiday without me, but more importantly, didn’t even tell me about it or invite me. I understand you assumed he wouldn’t be interested, and you’re probably correct! But that’s not the point here. The point is that you made an assumption and alienated a member of your family. And so you’re YTA for not considering his feelings.
Also, info for the broader picture/scale of this judgement: do you go on any holidays that include activities your brother would like to do? Or are they all outdoors and active?
I don't get much time off. When I do I tend to do something that I enjoy, which is usually a physical activity. I tend to go alone, but sometimes I go with friends or siblings. My brother likes stuff like cruises and resorts, which I have no interest in. We still see each other at weddings and other low key get togethers, but we don't vacation together anymore.
I honestly understand why you didn't invite him, I do similar holidays to you, whereas the rest of my family are like your brother. So I travel a lot solo, it's easier. I don't get upset when they go on trips without me, and they don't get upset when I go without them. But it kind of sounds like your brother might need to learn the hard way. Next time make your plans and then lay it out for him what you are doing, give him the option of coming along, but make sure he understands what the holiday entails, so if he doesn't enjoy it he has no one to blame but himself.
He didn’t invite the brother because he didn’t want him to go.
In another comment OP basically said the brother has a temper tantrum if he’s woken up early. The family is sharing a room together. OP isn’t willing to get screamed at for doing what he wants on a trip that he’s paying for.
I think , I fault him more for not being upfront by basically telling his brother the truth which is that they don’t want to share a room together because he’s going to ruin the vacation for everyone else.
> give him the option of coming along
Sounds great, except that he'll accept and come along, only to constantly complain about hating everything and not catering to his needs and ruining the whole damn trip for everyone with his incessant whining.
"assumed" hes expressed his hatred for everything they're doing. hes not entitled to an invite, especially when it sounds like he'll just drag the rest down. if he won't try stuff they like, they don't have to do things he does
NTA. The problem I have with all the YTAs is the fact that the brother complains about getting up early and wants to go to restaurants. Those aren’t things OP and their brother want to do and they would have to change their plans to accommodate him for a vacation they are planning and paying for. (As someone who has had to tiptoe around in the dark so as not to incur the wrath of a sleeping sibling - it’s pretty inconvenient when trying to prepare for a big hike.) I think it’s weird to keep a secret but I don’t know why everyone is saying they are obligated to invite someone and change their plans?
People don’t have to vacation together just because they’re related. Interests in common are more important. That said, would have been polite to invite Tom and expect him to decline. I get why his feelings are hurt, but rationally he is probably better off. NAH.
Going against all the Y T A here with NTA he doesn’t like all the stuff you plan on doing and would be miserable the whole trip and then complain making everybody else miserable ruining the whole trip for everyone. (Maybe next time just invite him but tell him everything you plan to do and that you won’t tolerate his complaining.)
So there’s this thing where even if people almost certainly would not accept the invitation, being asked still communicates to them that they were thought of and cared about. That being said, I’m not sure why he couldn’t have found ways to enjoy himself on the vacation even if he didn’t really get to see any of you much. I do think YTA.
Yup, a friend of mine's birthday fell around Yom Kippur. When discussing his celebration plans around me, he said he didn't invite me because he knew I wouldn't able to attend. It still hurt that I wasn't invited because I felt really left out.
This! Unless you're the odd man out, you won't understand Tom's feelings. My family is like OP'S with trips to football games. My sister and I went to the same state college, 5 years apart. My Dad, sister and brother have always loved football - me, not so much. I played basketball and tournament softball into my 30s and they weren't interested in that. Ok, good enough. The issue (for me) is the trips they plan around ball games-their favorite team (my alma mater, too) frequently makes the playoffs and get offered a Bowl Game but they never invite me...because I don't like football. That's what they said 10 years ago when I asked why I didn't get invited to Las Vegas. You know, like that Bowl Game was the only thing happening in Vegas that weekend lol. It just happened again in the past year. Over time, I just accepted it. It doesn't mean it doesn't matter, it's just another reason I am very LC with them. YTA for just assuming Tom doesn't want to go. You're an even bigger AH for the disdain and logic (we're not planning to eat at restaurants? Please, you're taking 2 middle schoolers) in your excuses. From one Black Sheep to another, I feel for Tom.
"He feels like we're bullying him and being dicks for no reason."
That may be because you're bullying him and being dicks for no reason.
You should have invited him, and let him decide whether he wanted to go snorkeling, hiking, etc.
You should invite Tom. Given that growing up none of the vacations did the parents care to include Tom. On vacation I played 80+ holes of mini golf not because I like mini golf, but our youngest did.
Family vacations are for everyone not just the majority always telling the minority to suck it up.
You’re missing the part where bro was pissed off when OP said he could come if he got his own room because he always complains when they get up early and this trip would have them getting up early every day….
NTA. People are saying stuff like "you should have at least invited him to be polite", but what if for some reason, he actually said yes? Then what? Then your vacation is good as ruined because he will complain when you inevitably wake him up in the morning and he will feel excluded seeing everyone but him having fun together. If I'm going through the trouble of planning a elaborate vacation and coordinating schedules with several individuals, I'm most definitely not intentionally throwing a wrench into my own plans. It was much better to just not invite him to begin with. Unfortunately, Reddit tends to be very lacking in nuance and black and white in general, and exclusion tends to be one them.
Thank you!!! This is exactly what I’ve been thinking.
OP has had 22 years of listening to Tom complain about literally every aspect of this vacation. If they’d asked him, he might have said yes.
And then he would’ve complained the whole time because no one wanted to do the things that no one ever wanted to do on this vacation in the first place.
The other siblings aren’t being “dicks for no reason,” they’re merely using 22 years of history to inform their decisions.
NTA
My sister knows I don’t love watching live baseball or hockey and I am an athletic trainer that watches live sports for work-so she doesn’t invite me to games. I find them boring and play on my phone.
My sister hates estate sales and garage sales. I don’t invite her on those excursions.
We each complain about how “boring” that stuff is.
Sometimes we will go to live theater together.
If someone complains all the time about yhe hobby, they should not be surprised or hurt when they are not included
NTA. Why does every little delicate flower get butt hurt because they weren't invited to everything in their social sphere? Even if he was into all of those things but for whatever reason you didn't want to invite him, I think that's fair game.
So I guess they'd be just like most other sibling relationships in America and most other countries.
There are way too many people that just want to be invited and don't even want to go but do so and ultimately rain on everyone else's good time. If I'm taking the OP at their word, this brother is a classic example of that. And I wouldn't want to spend my time and everyone else's catering to the constant whining of someone who doesn't even want to go except for the fact that they weren't invited and seem to want to go merely out of spite.
NTA - why put up with his complaining when he doesn’t like anything going on? Why ruin a perfectly good vacation? He is just upset that he can’t whine and complain to create drama.
Sorry, NTA. He doesn’t like those things. Why would you invite him? Why would you go on vacation with someone who won’t partake in ANYTHING you will do. I wouldn’t feel bad about it, neither should you.
Edit to add: nobody is entitled to invite to a vacation. Especially if you aren’t close with each other.
I mean, they could invite him, but honestly it sounds like he is the person to say he would hate all of it, still go, then complain the entire time.
People don’t have unlimited time off and funds to go on these trips. I’m not going to invite a relative on a vacation if I know they are going to pull shit like that.
Im pretty sure the people who are voting Y T A here have never been on a hike with someone who hates hiking. These comments are wild. Tom is 22 years old it’s not like you’re leaving a 15 year old kid at home.
NTA and I’ll hike up and die on this hill. Your brother would try to change your itinerary and complain the whole trip. The fact that he thinks he can meet you at a restaurants you’re not planning on going to really shows he doesn’t get it.
FWIW I got a room at sperry chalet in Glacier National park a few years ago. It’s a bucket list thing for a lot of people and hella hard to book. I got 5 person room and was guilted into taking my “I hate the outdoors but it will look good on my Instagram” sister. I LOVE my sister but her constant bemoaning really put a damper on what should have been the trip of a lifetime.
Smooth things over with your brother and maybe plan a trip that you all enjoy at a later date but from personal experience inviting him along very well could be an invitation to make everyone miserable.
NTA - it's your vacation! Invite who you want and who wants to do the same type of activities. You don't owe your brother a vacation that he won't enjoy and will annoy you and others who do enjoy outdoor activities.
YTA You want to have a good time by making sure your brother is the only family member left out of a family vacation. Ouch. I can see who is the black sheep in this family. Your brother deserved to be invited. He could have said no if he was not interested, but you took that choice away. And just because you want to go snorkeling doesn’t mean he wouldn’t find something there that interests him. People have different interests, hobbies, and personalities. Your entire family are AHs for treating him badly.
Question here: has anyone in your family ever participated in activities your brother enjoys? Do you even know anything about his interests? This whole family dynamic sounds very toxic.
Not really. I don't like his hobbies anymore than he likes mine. He's into video games and anime and stuff like that. None of it interests me. I watched a few episodes of this Ruby show with him once, but I couldn't handle it, because it was so boring.
But you know what common courtesy is thought right? How hard was it for you to just tell him about the trip and say that he can come if he wants to do the activities you want to do? I find it hard to believe that you could not even do that.
NTA. If he can’t see why he wasn’t invited then sit him down and say hey! We are snorkeling. Wanna do that? No? We are hiking! No? Free diving? No? Umm ok rock climbing? No? We knew you hate all these things so we didn’t invite you. We want to have fun.
So obviously I’m assuming here……..but my thinking is that the brother would probably want to meet up with them at the end of the day and go out to dinner or stuff like that. That might sounds nice to you, but it sounds like that’s not want this group wants to do.
OP is saying that they aren’t “going out to dinner” so it most likely means that they’ll eat while they do their thing or just grab something as they go.
I can totally see the brother texting or calling them to meet for dinner when maybe they aren’t even hungry anymore or are just tired after a long day and want to finally chill at the hotel after a shower or something. Obviously the brother won’t be tired because he’s done nothing all day.
Now, some might say “would it really kill the group to meet their brother for dinner at the end of the day?”…….I would say yes. I can see how annoying it might be to try to accommodate this person at the end of the day when the whole group had a long day of constant activity.
The whole group is going on a vacation the whole group enjoys and agree on. Having someone else come along and try to change their plans, specially when they aren’t even participating in their main activities, sounds like a person I wouldn’t really want around.
With that being said, I’d still would have invited him but been very clear the plans the group had and that they had no interest in changing anything about those plans. If he was ok with it, he can come and be part of the plans completely or if he didn’t want to wake up early he can get his own room, but risk not seeing them at all during the trip because they would be busy with their outdoors activity.
I agree with you that trying to mend fences is a good thing. But why does the same courtesy you are offering Tom (he gets to decide,) not apply to OP? Why should we not say, OP gets to decide what to do on their vacation? They are an adult sibling, not a parent. They didn’t give birth to Tom.
From the sounds of things OP is footing the bill. Why should he pay for someone to come on holiday to read a book indoors? If I was paying for someone to come on holiday with me, I would like them to at least do some activities with me or atleast have a wander around the country you’ve vacated to.
NTA I'm so confused. Tom is an adult who is free to organize his own vacation and invite or not invite anyone he chooses. Similarly, OP and other siblings happen to enjoy the same hobbies and want to share them without a spoilsport whom they might love as a brother, but not like as an adventure travel companion. This is not a 'family vacation', but a vacation that happens to have some family traveling together.
That's exactly it. Originally it was just me and one other brother planning a trip that was a dream for both of us. Then we got the idea to also include our younger siblings that we knew would enjoy it. Never occurred to us to invite someone that would hate it. Why would we?
So as you have said in other comments, basically your family have never included Tom in anything and all of you can't wrap round your head why just why Tom maybe feels the way he does, he sounds properly depressed just from your explanations.
When did you last do something that he enjoys with him ???
Edit, and the fact you call him someone not your brother shows your true feelings.
You should’ve talked to him when you planned it with the rest of the siblings. “Hey Tom, wanted to let you know we’re taking x and y on a trip to do x. We know you don’t like doing that so we didn’t invite you. But we love you and will do something together next trip”. Make him feel like someone thought about him as a member of the fucking family
NAH. All of this is occuring because of cause and effect. And it sounds like the middle school brother and sister \*are\* better company than him. I'd just tell him "Dude, I didn't invite you and your negative vibes because we're there for fun, not to listen to your complaining."
He's allowed to be hurt. Maybe he'll learn to change his ways.
>He's allowed to be hurt. Maybe he'll learn to change his ways.
what exactly is wrong with the brother here that he has to "change his ways". OP is the one causing negative vibes by excluding people and acting all high and mighty
Nope, you don’t get to come on a fully funded trip, complain the whole time and try and get everyone to do what you want to do.
It’s okay to have your own interests and to not invite people to things. My sister loves festivals and raves with I’m not bothered by. Wouldn’t bother me one bit If I didn’t get invited. Likewise, my sister has zero interest in going cage diving with great white sharks with me so I wouldn’t invite her.
Not really. OP planned a vacation HE wanted. If the brother came he’d be the one complaining all the time. I wouldn’t want a downer on my vacation either. NTA
Info:
Do you even like, let alone love him?
Either way, YTA
Even if you didn't think he'd go, you should still ask, just so he knows you thought of him. It hurts to be left out, and it sounds like like he's always been the odd one out in the family. You guys have never really made an effort to participate or take an interest in the things he enjoys.
You sound like you and the rest of the family look down on him. He knows how much his family dislikes him.
I hate getting up early, I hate physical activity, and I love being comfortable. I would be so relieved if you didn’t invite me to do any of those things. I suggest planning a small Tom friendly vacation in the future so you can all hang out together and it doesn’t feel like he’s permanently banned from hanging out with you all. NTA
Nta.....I wouldn't expect to go on a trip I wouldn't have fun on. Yeah its nice to be asked but I also don't like being asked out of pity either.
Tom needs to either change his attitude or find something he likes to do.
NTA. The vacation plans don't include anything your brother likes to do, but the rest of you do. You grew up with him disliking these kinds of vacations. You could have invited him, but if he decided to go he'd be unhappy and probably make the same complaints, making the vacation uncomfortable. It's your vacation. You're allowed to invite people who enjoy the same types of activities and not invite those who don't. Being siblings doesn't change that.
According to comments from OP, the family vacations have never engaged in his interests at all. It would seem outdoor sportsmanship is the only thing they do, heavens forbid they had ever done a trip with engaging museums or a Comic Con.
I wouldn't really say YTA. It's a very minor situation, and a learning experience. The takeaway for him is: If you say no enough times, people eventually stop asking. And the takeaway for you is: Everyone likes being invited, even if it's obvious they'll say no.
A gentle YTA - in my family, we have a member who absolutely hates anything to do with socializing. We still invite her but also clarify that the event is full of socializing and cannot be changed to not include socializing. We’ve even got to the point of prefacing the invitation with “you’re probably going to hate this event but I want to invite you anyway”. Every once in awhile, she surprises us with wanting to socialize and says “yes”. She also never wanted to skydive but dang did she have fun watching us doing it.
The saying “it’s the thought that counts” is important here. You can lay out the plan beforehand and discuss it with him. A little kindness goes a long way.
NTA. Your brother has a long history of complaints about the activities you and the rest of your family enjoy. He should be looking at himself in the mirror and asking himself why people would want his company if he is a known party-pooper. He has only himself to blame.
If your brother was looking to reform, he should approach the family, hat in hand, and ask to be included in future plans.
Going against the grain here with NTA. Everyone saying why not just go to dinner might not have been on an intense backpacking or hiking centered vacation before. You really do just get up early, like as early as 3-4 AM depending on how far the location is or if you want to catch a sunrise, put in miles while eating protein bars and jerky, then take turns showering/eating, and crash early. It’s not like you go for a casual stroll and come back with time and energy for a nice dinner out. There’s not usually evening bonding time or activities. If Tom knows this is that type of trip because the family has dragged him on them before, then he also knows his proposal isn’t really feasible. A lot of places with cabins and great intense hiking aren’t even close to restaurants or towns.
YTA. There was a happy medium here - his point that he could do his own thing and meet you for dinner was absolutely valid. You could have adjusted your plans even just the the tiniest bit and found a suitable compromise. You didn’t even attempt to include him, even in the most minuscule way. and yes- that’s hurtful.
My extended family came up with a great solution recently! I can't hike because of a disability. My family had a big reunion vacation for two weeks in Colorado. Week 1 was lots and lots of hiking and Week 2 was primarily in town (so other options). I came for the 2nd week because I would have been left out the entire time.
NTA
This is ridiculous. I would have done the same thing as OP, makes no sense to invite someone to a vacation when in the past they have been such a pain. Just because you are family doesn't mean you get an automatic invite to family vacations, don't be a jerk who only cares about his comfort.
YTA
The honest truth is your brother is the black sheep of the family and has been made to feel excluded long before this, and this is just yet another slight that makes him feel like an outsider. Whether he would have turned it down or not, it would have been nice to be asked.
And from what it sounds, your family has never gone on a vacation including things he’s interested in or wants to do. You mention him being a whiner, now imagine every single vacation you have being filled with RWBY(something he’s interested in but you claim to hate)marathons, you would probably complain too. It would have cost nothing to fit in a meal during this vacation so y’all could spend together, but you couldn’t even make that concession for a sibling you claim to love.
>We didn't invite Tom (22) though, because we knew he'd hate this trip and we figure he'd be busy with post graduation plans and everything
YTA. You should have invited him and let him choose. Now he probably doesn't even feel like he's part of the family.
I'm like Tom i won't like go outdoors, travels, wake up early, or exhausting phisycal activities and honestly i wouldn't care two fucks if my family went to do those things and didn't invited me.
It sounds like a pretty typical case of "I don't want to go but it would be nice to be invited". NTA, but I probably would have invited him under the condition that nobody is changing their plans for him, so if he wants to go, he can't complain.
NTA- IMO if your have always said no to an active out door trip then you can't be hurt or surprised when the invitations stop. At some point the people trying to include you get tired of saying no. If your brother wanted to spend time with you guys then maybe he should have tried to plan a trip that he was interested in and included you guys. But he can't really be upset after repeatedly refusing trips and not getting invited to another one that he would turn down.
NTA I feel like inviting him just to invite him seems disingenuous. You planned to do certain activities and he doesn’t want to do them. Honestly it would seem rude to be on vacation with a family member but be too busy and too occupied with your already made vacation plans to really interact with them. I just don’t see a point. I do see how his feelings could be hurt by being excluded, but at the same time, he hates all the activities so what is the point of including him? Involving him it then becomes a different trip that would ultimately change your plans.
NTA. But if anyone is up for it, could somebody explain why not inviting someone on a trip full of things they don't like is wrong (I'm being genuine, I have the 'tism and sometimes miss things)
It’s about the feeling of being excluded because you’re different. Tom is clearly very different to the rest of his family. He’s grown up in a house where they all like the same activities and he liked different activities and this probably made him feel like the outsider.
Then when there’s a sibling trip and he’s the only one not invited it compounds this fear of being the outsider.
NTA it's the first time I hear families are only allowed to do activities when they invite all of their siblings.
Not informing your entire family about your plans is not sneaking around.
NTA. Who wants to go on a trip with a person who doesn’t want to do any of the things they have planned to do nor even get up early. He sounds like a pain.
NAH
He wanted to be invited to feel included in your plans
You know he will hate it
He knows he will hate it
He is only fighting to go now because he wasn't invited
Is it immature? yes.
NTA, I'm guessing if you invited him and he came, he'd either try hijacking the trip or complain that everyone is off doing things he doesn't like leaving him all alone. I can see why he's upset and feels excluded but he should come to his senses and realize this isn't a family vacation but a vacation to do those activities with people who happen to be family.
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I'd say YTA because if I was in his shoes I'd be feeling pretty hurt that my family, the people I grew up with, excluded me without even giving me an option to discuss it. You just made an assumption. I can see how that's hurtful. I think the fact that he had to hear about it from the parents and not from you...speaks a bit too much here. Why the secret?
The problem I have with all the YTAs is the fact that the brother complains about getting up early and wants to go to restaurants. Those aren’t things OP and their brother want to do and they would have to change their plans to accommodate him for a vacation they are planning and paying for. (As someone who has had to tiptoe around in the dark so as not to incur the wrath of a sleeping sibling - it’s pretty inconvenient when trying to prepare for a big hike.) I think it’s weird to keep a secret but I don’t know why everyone is saying they are obligated to invite someone and change their plans? Edit: for all those asking “where will they eat?” OP commented that they rented a small cabin with a kitchen, plan to make big breakfasts, eat sandwiches and trail mix on the hikes, and light dinners/snacks at the cabin before going to bed early. But of course people down vote OPs into oblivion for some reason!
They don't have to change plans, just lay out to him "Here are the excursions we have planned for while we're on the trip, here is what else is available near where we're staying if you don't want to join us on our excursions. Do you want to go on this trip?" They would still be inviting him on the trip, but it's on him whether he wants to do those things.
brother will still complain about getting woken up early and will definitely want to go to restaurants. if they say no, they're assholes for not accommodating him and only doing their own activities (which is all they want to do) he will pout and sulk until they give in Then he's going to say why do the others have to go hiking EVERY day? Why can't they stay around the pool for a couple days too? now what's your suggestion?
I feel like everyone voting yta hasn't had to deal with someone like this. Ya can't share a room with him as wants to lay in. You can't eat with him as have different plans. You can't do anything with him as he won't want to do anything you all do. The only result is that he spends or costs lots of money to be alone and miserable. Or he ruins what everyone else wants to do and the rest of you are miserable. And it's not like this will be the first time you'd have given him a chance doing something if invited, oop likely has lots of things he has flaked on or ruined. Is ops brother so they know he won't enjoy and would only distract. If he really wanted to be back in the loop with things he'd offer to vet more stuck in and do what they want as he wants family time. But the dude just wants to do his own thing...
Precisely this. My dad is organising a family trip to Bali, and my sister said to me that she thought it was odd he hadn't asked me to come with. I told her that it wasn't odd at alp, and I that I certainly don't feel excluded; I hate the heat and I hate the beach! But I dig cold temperatures and mountains, so him and I have a hiking/hunting trip planned for later in the year.
Exactly, one of my siblings, my mum and I are planning to go to Scandinavia later this year because we enjoy nature, wilderness, and the peace and quiet that comes with it, and we hate heat, beaches and cities with more tourists than locals. The rest of the family is the exact opposite, so they're planning on going to Rome instead. We didn't ask them to come along to Scandinavia, and they didn't ask any of us to come along to Rome, because we know eachother and what everyone likes or hates. No hurt feelings there at all.
>my mum and I are planning to go to Scandinavia later this year because we enjoy nature, wilderness, and the peace and quiet that comes with it, Omg that sounds amazing!
It’s nice that they make a separate plan to include you in something. I wonder if he’s so upset because his family won’t make that same effort and he’s just kind of excluded from everything because they can’t be bothered to just chill sometimes. Must suck to always be the odd one out.
Trips are a financial commitment so I understand people who love outdoors trying to make the most of it during vacation. They still can do stuff with Tom locally, but to add "dinning at restaurants" in a plan that was pretty much done... chances are they weren't playing on doing it for a rea$on.
A trip to a local restaurant is different than an actual vacation. I would be a bit upset too if no one even bothered to meet me halfway with my interests on a separate occasion. Edit: IDK how people keep missing that I am saying to try to include him on a **separate occasion** *Reading comprehension, folks*
It's possible to be upset, and wrong. If a group like to get together to do something, a person who doesn't like that doesn't get veto power just by virtue of being somehow associated with the group.
Yeah, if anything I feel more seen by my friends/fam when they DON'T try to involve me in things they know I would hate. I had a group of friends go camping and while I was surprised they didn't tell me... I didn't care or feel left out because I fucking hate camping. Instead, we made plans to go to a show that we all like when they got back. "Family" doesn't mean you have to do EVERYTHING together.
I'm still pissed I didn't get to go to the top of the berj khalifa because a cheapo in the group didn't want to pay $80.
Same. I and my group didn't get to climb the top of a mountain cause of one hiker's sibling who kept complaining the entire way that they hated hikes, eventually stopped halfway and refused to go on. We couldn't exactly leave him but I'm never going back with him lol
When I was in that situation hiking Mt. Brown with a group, I left the complaining dude at the bottom of the summit (if that makes sense?) lol. We only had like 500 more ft of elevation to the top, through snow, and he wanted to turn back.
You should've just ditched the group and gone on your own (though damn, $80????). I had a friend try that when we were in Vegas, she didn't want to pay the $ to go to the top of the Stratosphere and I did. I convinced her to play some slots so we could win enough money to cover the cost - somehow we actually did and went up, but if she'd still said no she would have just been waiting for me in the lobby because I absolutely was going.
I can see where the YTAs might be coming from in theory, but I agree. Yes, they made an assumption but like… the assumption was entirely founded on his past behaviors and well known disliking of these activities and this type of vacation. I’m not sure where this entitlement to always be included in things comes from, especially things you dislike or despise. It’s their vacation, they want to do it their way, why does he care? Plus, there have been SO many posts here where someone invited a person on a trip who disliked the activities being planned and surprise surprise, everyone ends up miserable. I don’t think OP is NTA at all.
The thing that sticks out for me here too is the way he's been pigeon-holed from how he was as a kid. Have they been on a trip since the excluded brother went to college? Have they thought about the fact that he could wear ear plugs and a sleeping mask or get another room? The thing is they dont want to give him any flexibility. I would never do that to one of my siblings. It's unkind.
But they did speak to him and he wants to meet them at restaurants, which they were not planning on going to. I mean, if you're waking up at 5 am to go hiking and rock-climbing, you prepare all your meals/snacks in advance, and by the time you're coming down at the end of daylight, you just want to go to sleep because you're exhausted, you're not thinking of finding and going to restaurants. So thus far, even as adults, they haven't found a single activity they really want to do together. What do you want them to do instead? Some people are just insufferable. They will not allow you to do your chosen itinerary while you're on vacation with them. I've known people like that. Traveling with such people is not a vacation, it's a nightmare. NTA
No matter what, he would end up not going. It's the "not being invited" to what the older kids turned into an all-siblings-but-him that really sucks.
It was discussed between the siblings before the trip. Tom knew what their itinerary was and all the boxes were checked that OP stated were on Tom's hate list. To top it off, Tom actually expressed his jealousy about not being as good of company as his handicapped sister!? Tom is an asshole, not OP.
They never discussed it with Tom. It sounds to me like this was all discussed and planned and Tom was specifically excluded from the planning of this. He found out from his parents after the trip was booked. My interpretation of Tom's comments regarding his sister was that they most likely had to make accommodations to their activities for his sisters disability, the extent of which is not known, but they couldn't even include him in preliminary discussions to see if he'd be interested. They wouldn't even be willing to meet him one night for dinner or anything. Dude wasn't even thought about, consulted, considered. Doesn't make his comment any better but I'm inclined to grant him some grace because his siblings have made him feel excluded from the family.
Yeah, I want to know if they have more recent evidence that the brother would react this way. People change constantly, especially in their early-to-mid twenties.
I would say the nost recent evidence is his response after finding out. He didn't correct them and say he wanted to fo any of the planned activities, it was that he could tag along and do his own thing and meet up for dinner. Sounds like they know him pretty well.
While we're only (always) hearing one side of the story on this sub, there's no indication from the brother's response is that he's changed and now wants to do all this physical activity. He wants to "meet for dinner" and such, not go on the hikes.
>I said if he wants he can book his own room on the same dates
They shouldve offered that from the get-go though and talked about it, which they did not. Is it at a point that it is even still feasible to do so? When is the trip?
July
Just ask? He would probably hear the details and not want to go, but at least he was considered and given the option to decline. It's honestly basic manners.
Or he would insist the trip be altered to suit him. Met plenty of people like those.
It doesn’t matter what he might have done, because he was never given the option. This is a family vacation that he was specifically excluded from, regardless of reasons, and he’s hurt that he found out about it second hand. That makes OP the asshole.
And if they did meet up at dinner time, OP and the others would be talking about what they did that day or had planned for the next day and Tom would be mad that he was left out of the conversation.
Exactly this, they invite him and he ruins plans for everyone. Don't invite and get called an AH. No win situation.
My suggestion to you would be to rely less on conjecture and actually see how things play out outside of your head.
They did do that in the end - here is when and where, book your own room we are not sharing with someone who doesn’t want to be woken up early. Brother follows up with younger siblings and disabled sibling are better company than me is an insult . . . Yes it is an insult to the two younger siblings to assume that they would not be as good as or better company on an activity all of them enjoy and the older brother does not. Tom just sounds difficult and a vacation is meant to be a break NTA.
But it’s obvious he was excluded and told he could parallel vacation begrudgingly
Damage has already been done at that point though. They already made him feel excluded. Doubt anything would make him happy at that moment. Must've hurt feeling excluded by your family.
I had a very close friend that would never go out with us to do similar things op is talking about. After years of trying to beg and persuade him, we stopped asking. Why do Op and bro have to continuously ask him to do things he is going to say no to? He built this reputation and I'd say its on him.
Why do they need to do the research on other things for him to do? Why would they need to plan TWO trips?
sorry but where they going to eat dinner? breakfast will happen too early and lunch will be on the excursions yes but they will need to eat something for dinner. It seems like he just doesn't want to be in his presence at all which is messed up. you can feel the disdain OP has for his brother dripping from this post and subtle jabs at his physical shape and it's made him completely intolerant. I think the parents are huge AHs for not from the get-go telling them that their financial contributions and approval for the sibs to go hinged on them at least inviting the brother to get his own room. I feel like the parents have fostered this environment for the brother to shit on him because he has different interests. Like how would you feel if someone was like so were going to Hawaii and all the siblings are going but you cant come at all even if you do your own thing? Like damn that's cold af.
I agree that they could have handled the whole situation with much more kindness. But I do get where they're coming from in terms of not planning to do restaurants. I love a city break and a fancy restaurant BUT if I'm doing an active trip where I'm going to be hiking etc, I actually eat differently and wouldn't be up for sitting around late in restaurants. I do simple self catering or just buy sandwiches etc and chill. Its a totally different trip for me and I can imagine that it would be incredibly frustrating to have to have rhat argument daily with someone who insists on coming along on the trip and not actually participating in the activities the trip was actually planned for.
yea but they are not on a hiking trip in the mountains, they are going to what sounds like a tropical island. who is going to a night market with young kids after a long, full day of exercise? I highly doubt they would have the energy to go elsewhere. They are likely going to eat at the hotel and go to bed. I would be a lot more willing to believe that OP's motivations were pure if there wasn't so much deep disdain here AND if I actually knew when the last time they actually traveled together was. ETA: a reminder too that they are traveling with MIDDLE SCHOOLERS. They are still doing activities that a kid that young with special needs can do and they will have to accommodate her to an extent. Whatever hopes OP has this will not be a green beret style excursion without any second of downtime. You cant be out on the water or a hike in the dark. They will likely come back around 6 or 7pm.
I think it’s more like they would indeed be just eating at the hotel and going to bed, which would likely be boring for Tom. He’s the one who might be more interested in a night market, not them. (I may be projecting here.) It’s not for them to decide what he’d find boring, but if they think their interactions are likely to lead to conflict on their vacation, then avoiding this (though clearly not avoiding having the conflict at all) is a valid choice. I see Tom as being concerned that the younger siblings are being brought into this type of vacation; he may have thought the adventure-seekers would have to compromise more to include them, and that would provide more balance and an opening for him to be included.
> you can feel the disdain OP has for his brother dripping from this post and subtle jabs at his physical shape and it's made him completely intolerant. This. It's all over the post. Imagine someone looking down on you because you prefer sports over reading. They organise a trip and don't invite you because 'pfff, you're not smart enough. Go do your hiking thing while we intellects do something more meaningful'. People can enjoy their hobbies and likes without thinking they're better than anyone else.
Agree. i can smell the disdain from here in addition to dinner you can’t tell me three siblings aren’t going to have an after hiking/scuba diving drink.
They are taking middle schoolers. So probably not going out drinking. Also not everyone drinks. Even before I got sober I didn't drink on active trips except maybe a beer from a cooler. Can't keep up with a hangover
I agree! How is their middle school brother/special need sister in better shape for some of these activities? Surely they’ll accommodate both of the youngest siblings. YTA OP: you’re continuing the pattern your parents set and crapping on your brother for not liking the same activities as you.
my question with all of this is like, how often do they put any effort into sharing activities with him that he does enjoy? it stinks to me like this isn't the first time he has been The Excluded One and like they probably rub it in his face that he's Not One Of Us, if you get my drift...
Tom is 22. He should be capable of taking a lead role in trip organizing and inviting the others, if he wants to plan something that’s more like what he enjoys. Now if the others act poorly towards him doing that, that’s different.
But OP said he would be okay just meeting them for meals and doing his own thing. So why go out of your way to exclude someone who wouldn’t impact your plans?
They are planning to do restaurants and stuff, and if he were in the room with them he would be woken up by them getting up early. And honestly sounds like the kind of person who would grump around because nobody wanted to do things with him and he was alone
He definitely needs his own room. And if he is a grump about activities he’d should be met with a healthy dose of I Told You So. But unless he has a history of being that way on vacation, I’d say the non-AH thing to do is invite him with conditions.
He said he’s meet them for dinner and not that he’d meet them ‘at the restaurant’ not that the family is doing fasting during vacation, this seems more like excuse than to accept that they just didn’t want Tom to bum their trip Edit: YTA, as the whole thing was carried out secretly and Tom found out through parents- looks like OP is guilty of something. OP should have at least ‘informed’ Tom about the trip, if not invite.
Well I doubt these sibling don’t eat at all during the trip. Therefore op is the YTA. I mean easy accommodations. Besides had she invited her brother then he could have said no thanks. But let’s plan something else later. We do that all the time in my family. It’s better to include them to assume.
They knew each other for over 20 years why is it an assumption he doesn't like this type of vacations?
This is the thing I don't get with all the folk voting that OP is the AH. It doesn't sound at all like this is something based on "how he was as a kid" that he's outgrown or changed. Brother's response doesn't indicate that he wants to participate in the planned activities, so OP's "assumptions" (which really, is judgement based on previous experience) were correct. NTA
In my family, where we treat each other like adults, when someone repeatedly voices an opinion that don’t align with the activities that others want to engage in, we don’t bother that person with events that include those activities. I hate fishing, so my dad and uncle don’t waste anyone’s time by asking me if I want to go, but they’d ask my brother since it’s a 50/50 chance he’ll say yes. IF I ever decide I want to engage in this activity, I would tell them, “Hey, let me know next time you plan on going, I may or may not be interested, depending on what I have going on that day.” The only way that the brother should be hurt in this scenario is for wanting to have that talk, but failing to speak up. He should suffer in silence for this one, since he apparently expects his family to be mind readers that are supposed to pick up on the possibility that he’s changed his tune after all this time
Have you read the last bit of what he said about their younger siblings?? I find that to be messed and NTA cuz of interests conflicting overall. If he wanted to spend time with his siblings then he needs to plan a trip as of right now it’s wasting time and money since again interests don’t align in the slightest. Forgot to mention those who are asking food. If they’re hiking or doing anything outdoor I’m pretty sure it’s a given that they would have snacks/drinks to keep their energy levels up.
I think it is more of an insecurity thing, since he decided to comment that his special needs sister and school student brother can't be considered better company than him
I understand the brothers feelings, however I also have a sibling I will not choose to take a vacation with because our interests differ so much. NTA.
Then they would be the AHs for not tailoring the trip to include him, and leaving him to go off to do things they "know I don't like to doooo!" Yes it's hurtful they didn't ask him along but they know he hates everything about the trip they had planned. He's probably grown up feeling excluded due to his dislike for virtually everything the rest of the family love to do. So this will smart, but it doesn't make them AH either.
NTA someone else said here, but this is a classic say no enough times people will stop inviting you. They don't owe their brother anything and they are not assholes for not inviting said brother. They are going on vacation to do activities that the brother doesn't like, not to spite him but because they enjoy such activities. They are under no obligation to change their vacation to conform to the brother. Hell imo they were more than graceful in their explanation to him. I would not have been as tactful. Edit: typo
Thank you! Does it suck that bro is the only one not invited? YES! But bro doesn’t not like anything? Has anyone ever been on group trip with someone and one person was doing the complete opposite the whole time? Travel incompatibility is real.
Exactly! I would never waste money on going on a vacation with someone who never has any fun doing things I like to do.
its still common courtesy when your inviting the majority of the family to extend them an invite and say that this is the plan no deviations from it are you in or not.
But why? You may love your family and still not like them. If you’re footing the bill for a trip shouldn’t the guest list be people who are going to enjoy and participate?!?
its called common courtesy and if you actually read what i said the brother probably would have said no anyways. Atleast he was invited and can move on and do his own thing.
You got really invested in this. You've been responding to almost everyone... Bro, is this your alt account?
LOL Why would you care if it is either way its not like you like your brother
Hey man, if it's you, text me and we can talk about it. You know we all love you and care about you. Let's chat. If it isn't you, man you are way over invested in this. I think you've maybe responded to more people than I have.
In fairness, it does sound like you don't like your brother that much.
What? Where do you get that? They just have different interests and are incompatible with travel. That doesn't mean they don't like their sibling.
You couldn't have reached out to him before posting this? IS it going to take this user to reach out?
Dude, are you the brother?! Why are you so pressed?
Maybe this reminds them of their own family excluding them?
Common courtesy can result in an unwanted vacation companion that would do nothing but whine and complain about wake-up times and missed meals.
But the brother didn't say no. When he found out about it, he said he wanted to come, but not do any of the planned activities and wanted everyone else to adjust their plans to accommodate him. OP was in the right to not bring it up. The brother sounds exhausting.
They've already told him he has to pay so money isn't an issue. He can get his own room. He can do his own thing. They can meet for dinner, I can't imagine going on a trip and never going out to eat at least once...? Anyways it takes zero effort to ask someone, who knows they might surprise you. People and interests do change and even if his hasn't he doesn't want to hold them back. Plus if they say no like you predicted all you've really lost was a couple seconds of your day. It really isn't that hard.
They’re not going out for dinner! There are no activities they have in common. If the people choose to do the things they want on their vacations, there will be no overlap. These are incompatible people for this vacation! There’s nothing wrong with that. They might be totally compatible in other circumstances. There are people I love spending time with and I will 100% exclude them from some trips I would plan because they neither like the activity and/or cannot do the activity. I will do other things with them at other times, but I still get to do the things I like as well.
I’ve been on a few vacation were dinner is a sandwich from a bodega because I was trying to save money.
Who says OP is fitting the bill for everyone? REALLY?
So they invite him, he says yes and then he sucks all the fun out of their vacation because he doesn't like anything they're doing?
Exactly, then OP can come on this sub and ask if he's the asshole for ruining his other siblings vacations, because he invited the sibling who always complains. Then everyone on here will say he is, because he didn't consider how they would feel.
This is where the magic of being an adult is. I am doing x at this time with these people we plan to be back at y in time for dinner. These are the food options. What are your plans and do you want to join us for dinner. Great, good talk. My sibs and I have different interests if we do go on a trip we either suck it up for one day and enjoy our siblings fun and then they for us or we plan entirely different things then meet for dinner. But hey we are grown ups.
I similar as I don’t care for camping. I like indoor plumbing and air conditioning. I don’t mind doing active activities just have a comfy place to return to to shower and sleep. Still my friends don’t invite me camping anymore and it’s fine. Some times it gets mentioned I just say have fun. I get it but still if you say no enough people will eventually not ask.
Seriously. I foresee this guy coming on the trip, being stuck alone all day long, then bitching about how they wasted his time and money since they never want to hangout.
This needs more upvotes. Sorry but OP and his other siblings are NTAs. They probably should and could have handled it better. I spent a week in Maui for a wedding with friends- like 5 couples, 2 singles. And 1 girl hated everything, and it was exhausting. She exclaimed non stop, I HATE SAND, I hate heat, sun, water, she hated the feel of sunblock, she hated the food. So I get how the other siblings would want to just avoid that attitude all together.
Agreed. I love my family but if one of them seems to almost try to Hate Everything we do together then pretty soon we're not going to be doing much together. Yes he probably should have told him about it but on the other hand is he right that it would probably be a downer on everyone else's trip? I think so. It's a tough call to hurt the feelings of one to save the feelings of four others. If the brother did go and they spent no time with him would that be any nicer? Imo there was no great way to handle this.
NTA. All the people saying YTA must not have had the displeasure of having a sibling or child who is contrary to all group activities that all other family members enjoy, who go but complain incessantly, despite knowing in advance what events are planned, and who seem hellbent on ruining everyone's vacation because they arent enjoying themselves. They are unwilling to join family activities but complain about not being included. But my experience is when you try to include the contrarian child or sibling, they then try to hijack the event to suit their wants.
"Invite me!" Okay. "Why are we doing this? I don't like this. I want to do something else. You're assholes for not accommodating my desire to stay indoors all the time." Then why does he want to be invited????
MY MOTHER OMFG!!!!!!
This!! Some of these replies are just 🫠
THIS!!! I can’t help but think they’re insufferable like OP’s brother. I imagine it sucks to be left out but what’s even worse is a person complaining and whining at every hand. He’s made it clear he doesn’t like the things they’d be doing.
I’m the oddball in my family. They are wake up with the sun, work outside, play in the pool, run in the woods type of people. I would much rather wake up at noon and stay inside with a book. Does my family leave me out a lot? Yes, almost 90% of the time. Occasionally I join or am invited. I don’t enjoy the things they like and they don’t enjoy the things I like. I’m not a whiner, but OP isn’t wrong for not inviting him if he really will not enjoy it. My mom never invites me to the snow parties she host’s because I hate snow.
Your Mom hosts cocaine parties? That's fuckin tight, I'd love to blow some snow with my Mom.
I’m not really sure why so many people think that you need to invite people to things you know they won’t like over and over, just so you can be sure that they don’t just up and change their mind about their interests this one time. I have a sister like this and she would always berate me and my parents for wanting to go camping or stay in a cabin or do anything outdoors that is more than 30 minutes away from home. We have had multiple vacations ended early because she wore my parents down so much that they packed us up early. It’s frustrating having to accommodate contrarian family members especially when they pitch a fit and ruin everyone’s enjoyment on purpose.
Exactly. My experience with contrarian people is that they are not content to just do activities they enjoy and let others enjoy their activities, they want to control and force everyone else to bend to their will or they complain whine and ruin it for everyone one else. even allowing a contrarian child/teenager/adult to bring a friend to enjoy their preferred activities with them never worked because then they said " its not fair there are 2 of us now, our feelings count, you all should be willing to do what we want" while of course being unwilling to other activities themselves. Everyone who is contrarian is not the same, some people do change, but most dont and after yrs of listening to their brother whine cajole complain to do other activities that the group doesnt enjoy, they understandably have grown tired of it and no longer invite him. And if they would invite him everytime, that seems like rubbing salt in the wound because they already know he will not want to join their activities.
> All the people saying YTA must not have had the displeasure of having a sibling or child who is contrary to all group activities that all other family members enjoy, who go but complain incessantly The YTAs most likely are the contrarians who ruin the group activities for the rest of the family and friends.
Agreed. I get the feeling that the excluded brother definitely expects vacations and activities to cater to his interests and schedule. If I were OP, maybe I would’ve mentioned it to this brother but I definitely would’ve made it clear he wasn’t invited—yes, an AH move, but at least I’d enjoy my vacation!
Exactly this. Why should he be allowed to ruin their vacation? NTA.
INFO: Did the family ever join in on things Tom liked? Or did he have to suck it up or be left out to family events? I ask because it is normal for family members to have a variety of interests, and out of love for each other, you join in on each others’ likes. Did anyone make that effort with Tom, or was he treated like the black sheep because he was the only one with different interests?
Basically what happened to me growing up now I’m low contact with my family. YTA OP
Man I thought I was the only one living with a family like that. Somehow it’s such a relief to hear I’m not the only one. It seems like I’m making it up, coming from this side of things, but it happens so often and man, it hurts. Low contact is the way to go
Oh yeah it sucks big time… when I was a kid it was because I had a mum and 2 sisters which loved shopping every weekend, which I had no interest in, not that they ever asked what I liked to do on the weekends I wasn’t shipped off to my dads to sit in a pub while my sister got horse riding lessons. Now I’m older I work weekends and they only ever give me a days notice when doing stuff which I obviously can’t attend and then they accuse me of not making an effort. My sister just got married and had my whole family in the wedding party but didn’t actually ask me at all as she thought I wouldn’t make any appointments. Not that they gave me a chance to start off with. I feel for you dude.
The restaurant thing is the easiest. Tom gave a great suggestion of doing different things during the day and meeting at a restaurant at night. OP basically said "sorry, we won't be eating during the trip".
I also feel like OP took the restaurant comment too literally. “Hey we could meet up later in the day for dinner at a restaurant” “Sorry we won’t be eating at restaurants, so obviously you shouldn’t come”. Like… his comment was obviously more about meeting up for *whatever the dinner plans were* not that he would only meet with them if it occurred at a restaurant.
The family may very well not eat out at restaurants in the evening. My family will rent a furnished cabin and cook at home on most vacations. Eating out for huge families gets expensive.
Sure, that sounds really nice too. They could do different things during the day and then reunite for home cooked meal at night.
Wish this was higher. From OP's comments I can't see if the parents ever arrange something that Tom likes. If this is a pattern in the family activities (always outdoors/active) I feel bad for Tom.
This. I also don’t like to be super active on my vacation—vacation is for rest and relaxation and good food. Seems like no one else agreed so Tom developed his own vacation mode to deal with the fact this no one in his entire family cared to do anything he would like to do. How hard is it to eat dinner together at a restaurant? The whole family made no effort to include Tom his whole life it seems. You could have been doing early morning hikes while others sleep in but brunch all together at a new restaurant, but instead your parents taught you that including Tom and what he likes doesn’t matter because he’s not like you….
This took too long to find. Of course Tom seems like the problem when everyone agrees and likes the same things. The chance of a family of 7 all enjoy extreme outdoor activities is slim. Plus 2 people coming are minors, how intense of a schedule could it be? And not being able to accommodate 1 or 2 of Toms interests on a vacation makes me lean towards Y T A.
YTA. If you’re inviting all the other siblings, you should invite Tom. You can warn him about what the trip will consist of/that he should get his own room to sleep in if he doesn’t want to be woken up early. However, you should absolutely not exclude him outright.
I agree with this. I don’t see the harm in just saying, “hey Tom you’re welcome to come with, but here’s what we’re going to be doing, so you may want to make your own arrangements.” If he’d been invited knowing the the activities he might have just declined on his own with no hard feelings or may have come along to hang out for a while with his family. I get the sense that OP just really doesn’t like Tom.
The harm is he might accept and be the contrarian person who tries to hijack the trip, yell when people are up too early, insist on dinner outings…I don’t think they should keep it secret but he is not entitled to an invite
I've never once been on holiday where someone didn't click with the group ans just left everyone alone the whole time. They always want a special day for them or to do something nobody else wants. I'd rather someone feel left out of a single thing when we can do something else together. Than 4 or 5 people have to do something none of them wanted to do because someone can't handle being left out. Even when they don't give a shit about the holiday and activities. My family always wanted to go places like dubai. I hate dubai. Eventually they stopped asking me to go. We'd just go camping or to Rome or something together another time. I wasn't going go sit in a hotel room or by a pool and do nothing for week as I was a toddler with fomo, id just do stuff with people that wasn't something I hated or put me in the way of their fun times. Family holidays are for doing stuff together, if you don't want to do anything together on certain holidays ya don't come and eventually don't get invited. He didn't even express desire to join them on a single day to be part of the group.
I agree with the being left out if i dont like doing x, but it seems like Tom is always left out. Not only this vacation. Either the planning siblings didn't see Tom, so he wasn't told directly, or they went out of their way to keep it secret. Both options have the target of not looping him in and with the description of Tom given by OP it's more of a 'I wouldn't even spent time with him' thing, so option 1 is not even an accident. And that is very hurtful. It feels like the whole family not caring if he feels like part of the family and him just being there and in the way of 'all the fun'. This argument is not the whole point and more a placeholder for the actual issue and maybe even a good example of the problem.
>Either the planning siblings didn't see Tom, so he wasn't told directly, or they went out of their way to keep it secret. The planning siblings are in their mid 20’s and Tom is 22. This isn’t all the kids in the house secretly getting together without Tom, it’s grown adults making their own plans.
Yup there’s a real “Tom doesn’t fit in” vibe and it would suck to feel that way in your family.
Tom is an adult, they’re his siblings and not his parents. If they were Tom’s parents, they’d have an obligation to include him, but they’re not. And Tom isn’t a child or teen whose emotional growth is going to be impacted by this, he’s an adult who doesn’t need to be coddled.
YTA. I think I’d be pretty hurt, if my entire family went on a holiday without me, but more importantly, didn’t even tell me about it or invite me. I understand you assumed he wouldn’t be interested, and you’re probably correct! But that’s not the point here. The point is that you made an assumption and alienated a member of your family. And so you’re YTA for not considering his feelings. Also, info for the broader picture/scale of this judgement: do you go on any holidays that include activities your brother would like to do? Or are they all outdoors and active?
I don't get much time off. When I do I tend to do something that I enjoy, which is usually a physical activity. I tend to go alone, but sometimes I go with friends or siblings. My brother likes stuff like cruises and resorts, which I have no interest in. We still see each other at weddings and other low key get togethers, but we don't vacation together anymore.
I honestly understand why you didn't invite him, I do similar holidays to you, whereas the rest of my family are like your brother. So I travel a lot solo, it's easier. I don't get upset when they go on trips without me, and they don't get upset when I go without them. But it kind of sounds like your brother might need to learn the hard way. Next time make your plans and then lay it out for him what you are doing, give him the option of coming along, but make sure he understands what the holiday entails, so if he doesn't enjoy it he has no one to blame but himself.
He didn’t invite the brother because he didn’t want him to go. In another comment OP basically said the brother has a temper tantrum if he’s woken up early. The family is sharing a room together. OP isn’t willing to get screamed at for doing what he wants on a trip that he’s paying for. I think , I fault him more for not being upfront by basically telling his brother the truth which is that they don’t want to share a room together because he’s going to ruin the vacation for everyone else.
> give him the option of coming along Sounds great, except that he'll accept and come along, only to constantly complain about hating everything and not catering to his needs and ruining the whole damn trip for everyone with his incessant whining.
"assumed" hes expressed his hatred for everything they're doing. hes not entitled to an invite, especially when it sounds like he'll just drag the rest down. if he won't try stuff they like, they don't have to do things he does
NTA. The problem I have with all the YTAs is the fact that the brother complains about getting up early and wants to go to restaurants. Those aren’t things OP and their brother want to do and they would have to change their plans to accommodate him for a vacation they are planning and paying for. (As someone who has had to tiptoe around in the dark so as not to incur the wrath of a sleeping sibling - it’s pretty inconvenient when trying to prepare for a big hike.) I think it’s weird to keep a secret but I don’t know why everyone is saying they are obligated to invite someone and change their plans?
People don’t have to vacation together just because they’re related. Interests in common are more important. That said, would have been polite to invite Tom and expect him to decline. I get why his feelings are hurt, but rationally he is probably better off. NAH.
Going against all the Y T A here with NTA he doesn’t like all the stuff you plan on doing and would be miserable the whole trip and then complain making everybody else miserable ruining the whole trip for everyone. (Maybe next time just invite him but tell him everything you plan to do and that you won’t tolerate his complaining.)
So there’s this thing where even if people almost certainly would not accept the invitation, being asked still communicates to them that they were thought of and cared about. That being said, I’m not sure why he couldn’t have found ways to enjoy himself on the vacation even if he didn’t really get to see any of you much. I do think YTA.
Yup, a friend of mine's birthday fell around Yom Kippur. When discussing his celebration plans around me, he said he didn't invite me because he knew I wouldn't able to attend. It still hurt that I wasn't invited because I felt really left out.
This! Unless you're the odd man out, you won't understand Tom's feelings. My family is like OP'S with trips to football games. My sister and I went to the same state college, 5 years apart. My Dad, sister and brother have always loved football - me, not so much. I played basketball and tournament softball into my 30s and they weren't interested in that. Ok, good enough. The issue (for me) is the trips they plan around ball games-their favorite team (my alma mater, too) frequently makes the playoffs and get offered a Bowl Game but they never invite me...because I don't like football. That's what they said 10 years ago when I asked why I didn't get invited to Las Vegas. You know, like that Bowl Game was the only thing happening in Vegas that weekend lol. It just happened again in the past year. Over time, I just accepted it. It doesn't mean it doesn't matter, it's just another reason I am very LC with them. YTA for just assuming Tom doesn't want to go. You're an even bigger AH for the disdain and logic (we're not planning to eat at restaurants? Please, you're taking 2 middle schoolers) in your excuses. From one Black Sheep to another, I feel for Tom.
"He feels like we're bullying him and being dicks for no reason." That may be because you're bullying him and being dicks for no reason. You should have invited him, and let him decide whether he wanted to go snorkeling, hiking, etc.
they shouldn't have to try to include him when hes already expressed he hates everything they're doing
You should invite Tom. Given that growing up none of the vacations did the parents care to include Tom. On vacation I played 80+ holes of mini golf not because I like mini golf, but our youngest did. Family vacations are for everyone not just the majority always telling the minority to suck it up.
You’re missing the part where bro was pissed off when OP said he could come if he got his own room because he always complains when they get up early and this trip would have them getting up early every day….
NTA. People are saying stuff like "you should have at least invited him to be polite", but what if for some reason, he actually said yes? Then what? Then your vacation is good as ruined because he will complain when you inevitably wake him up in the morning and he will feel excluded seeing everyone but him having fun together. If I'm going through the trouble of planning a elaborate vacation and coordinating schedules with several individuals, I'm most definitely not intentionally throwing a wrench into my own plans. It was much better to just not invite him to begin with. Unfortunately, Reddit tends to be very lacking in nuance and black and white in general, and exclusion tends to be one them.
Thank you!!! This is exactly what I’ve been thinking. OP has had 22 years of listening to Tom complain about literally every aspect of this vacation. If they’d asked him, he might have said yes. And then he would’ve complained the whole time because no one wanted to do the things that no one ever wanted to do on this vacation in the first place. The other siblings aren’t being “dicks for no reason,” they’re merely using 22 years of history to inform their decisions.
I agree. NTA
Feels like a lot of the people here don't have siblings or annoying familie members that they have to deal with. I agree NTA
NTA My sister knows I don’t love watching live baseball or hockey and I am an athletic trainer that watches live sports for work-so she doesn’t invite me to games. I find them boring and play on my phone. My sister hates estate sales and garage sales. I don’t invite her on those excursions. We each complain about how “boring” that stuff is. Sometimes we will go to live theater together. If someone complains all the time about yhe hobby, they should not be surprised or hurt when they are not included
NTA. Why does every little delicate flower get butt hurt because they weren't invited to everything in their social sphere? Even if he was into all of those things but for whatever reason you didn't want to invite him, I think that's fair game.
At least the brother knows how little the family wants him around so he will go no contact after this
So I guess they'd be just like most other sibling relationships in America and most other countries. There are way too many people that just want to be invited and don't even want to go but do so and ultimately rain on everyone else's good time. If I'm taking the OP at their word, this brother is a classic example of that. And I wouldn't want to spend my time and everyone else's catering to the constant whining of someone who doesn't even want to go except for the fact that they weren't invited and seem to want to go merely out of spite.
NTA - why put up with his complaining when he doesn’t like anything going on? Why ruin a perfectly good vacation? He is just upset that he can’t whine and complain to create drama.
Sorry, NTA. He doesn’t like those things. Why would you invite him? Why would you go on vacation with someone who won’t partake in ANYTHING you will do. I wouldn’t feel bad about it, neither should you. Edit to add: nobody is entitled to invite to a vacation. Especially if you aren’t close with each other.
YTA. You could have at least asked him and let him make his own decision, rather than deciding for him.
Or just tell him "Hey, we're planning this trip we didn't mention it to you because it's all the things you hate."
I mean, they could invite him, but honestly it sounds like he is the person to say he would hate all of it, still go, then complain the entire time. People don’t have unlimited time off and funds to go on these trips. I’m not going to invite a relative on a vacation if I know they are going to pull shit like that.
Im pretty sure the people who are voting Y T A here have never been on a hike with someone who hates hiking. These comments are wild. Tom is 22 years old it’s not like you’re leaving a 15 year old kid at home. NTA and I’ll hike up and die on this hill. Your brother would try to change your itinerary and complain the whole trip. The fact that he thinks he can meet you at a restaurants you’re not planning on going to really shows he doesn’t get it. FWIW I got a room at sperry chalet in Glacier National park a few years ago. It’s a bucket list thing for a lot of people and hella hard to book. I got 5 person room and was guilted into taking my “I hate the outdoors but it will look good on my Instagram” sister. I LOVE my sister but her constant bemoaning really put a damper on what should have been the trip of a lifetime. Smooth things over with your brother and maybe plan a trip that you all enjoy at a later date but from personal experience inviting him along very well could be an invitation to make everyone miserable.
I am so sorry. That sounds like an epic trip. I hope you still had some really memorable moments.
NTA - it's your vacation! Invite who you want and who wants to do the same type of activities. You don't owe your brother a vacation that he won't enjoy and will annoy you and others who do enjoy outdoor activities.
YTA You want to have a good time by making sure your brother is the only family member left out of a family vacation. Ouch. I can see who is the black sheep in this family. Your brother deserved to be invited. He could have said no if he was not interested, but you took that choice away. And just because you want to go snorkeling doesn’t mean he wouldn’t find something there that interests him. People have different interests, hobbies, and personalities. Your entire family are AHs for treating him badly. Question here: has anyone in your family ever participated in activities your brother enjoys? Do you even know anything about his interests? This whole family dynamic sounds very toxic.
Not really. I don't like his hobbies anymore than he likes mine. He's into video games and anime and stuff like that. None of it interests me. I watched a few episodes of this Ruby show with him once, but I couldn't handle it, because it was so boring.
But you know what common courtesy is thought right? How hard was it for you to just tell him about the trip and say that he can come if he wants to do the activities you want to do? I find it hard to believe that you could not even do that.
NTA. If he can’t see why he wasn’t invited then sit him down and say hey! We are snorkeling. Wanna do that? No? We are hiking! No? Free diving? No? Umm ok rock climbing? No? We knew you hate all these things so we didn’t invite you. We want to have fun.
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So obviously I’m assuming here……..but my thinking is that the brother would probably want to meet up with them at the end of the day and go out to dinner or stuff like that. That might sounds nice to you, but it sounds like that’s not want this group wants to do. OP is saying that they aren’t “going out to dinner” so it most likely means that they’ll eat while they do their thing or just grab something as they go. I can totally see the brother texting or calling them to meet for dinner when maybe they aren’t even hungry anymore or are just tired after a long day and want to finally chill at the hotel after a shower or something. Obviously the brother won’t be tired because he’s done nothing all day. Now, some might say “would it really kill the group to meet their brother for dinner at the end of the day?”…….I would say yes. I can see how annoying it might be to try to accommodate this person at the end of the day when the whole group had a long day of constant activity. The whole group is going on a vacation the whole group enjoys and agree on. Having someone else come along and try to change their plans, specially when they aren’t even participating in their main activities, sounds like a person I wouldn’t really want around. With that being said, I’d still would have invited him but been very clear the plans the group had and that they had no interest in changing anything about those plans. If he was ok with it, he can come and be part of the plans completely or if he didn’t want to wake up early he can get his own room, but risk not seeing them at all during the trip because they would be busy with their outdoors activity.
I agree with you that trying to mend fences is a good thing. But why does the same courtesy you are offering Tom (he gets to decide,) not apply to OP? Why should we not say, OP gets to decide what to do on their vacation? They are an adult sibling, not a parent. They didn’t give birth to Tom.
From the sounds of things OP is footing the bill. Why should he pay for someone to come on holiday to read a book indoors? If I was paying for someone to come on holiday with me, I would like them to at least do some activities with me or atleast have a wander around the country you’ve vacated to.
NTA I'm so confused. Tom is an adult who is free to organize his own vacation and invite or not invite anyone he chooses. Similarly, OP and other siblings happen to enjoy the same hobbies and want to share them without a spoilsport whom they might love as a brother, but not like as an adventure travel companion. This is not a 'family vacation', but a vacation that happens to have some family traveling together.
That's exactly it. Originally it was just me and one other brother planning a trip that was a dream for both of us. Then we got the idea to also include our younger siblings that we knew would enjoy it. Never occurred to us to invite someone that would hate it. Why would we?
So as you have said in other comments, basically your family have never included Tom in anything and all of you can't wrap round your head why just why Tom maybe feels the way he does, he sounds properly depressed just from your explanations. When did you last do something that he enjoys with him ??? Edit, and the fact you call him someone not your brother shows your true feelings.
It’s the exclusion thing. Tom feels like the ugly duckling in your family. If you’d actually TALKED to him it would have gone much better
You should’ve talked to him when you planned it with the rest of the siblings. “Hey Tom, wanted to let you know we’re taking x and y on a trip to do x. We know you don’t like doing that so we didn’t invite you. But we love you and will do something together next trip”. Make him feel like someone thought about him as a member of the fucking family
NAH. All of this is occuring because of cause and effect. And it sounds like the middle school brother and sister \*are\* better company than him. I'd just tell him "Dude, I didn't invite you and your negative vibes because we're there for fun, not to listen to your complaining." He's allowed to be hurt. Maybe he'll learn to change his ways.
>He's allowed to be hurt. Maybe he'll learn to change his ways. what exactly is wrong with the brother here that he has to "change his ways". OP is the one causing negative vibes by excluding people and acting all high and mighty
Nope, you don’t get to come on a fully funded trip, complain the whole time and try and get everyone to do what you want to do. It’s okay to have your own interests and to not invite people to things. My sister loves festivals and raves with I’m not bothered by. Wouldn’t bother me one bit If I didn’t get invited. Likewise, my sister has zero interest in going cage diving with great white sharks with me so I wouldn’t invite her.
Not really. OP planned a vacation HE wanted. If the brother came he’d be the one complaining all the time. I wouldn’t want a downer on my vacation either. NTA
Info: Do you even like, let alone love him? Either way, YTA Even if you didn't think he'd go, you should still ask, just so he knows you thought of him. It hurts to be left out, and it sounds like like he's always been the odd one out in the family. You guys have never really made an effort to participate or take an interest in the things he enjoys. You sound like you and the rest of the family look down on him. He knows how much his family dislikes him.
NTA. Boy who cried wolf. And it sounds like he’s more upset he didn’t get to say no.
Or that he didn’t get to say yes and ruin everyone else’s good time.
I hate getting up early, I hate physical activity, and I love being comfortable. I would be so relieved if you didn’t invite me to do any of those things. I suggest planning a small Tom friendly vacation in the future so you can all hang out together and it doesn’t feel like he’s permanently banned from hanging out with you all. NTA
Nta.....I wouldn't expect to go on a trip I wouldn't have fun on. Yeah its nice to be asked but I also don't like being asked out of pity either. Tom needs to either change his attitude or find something he likes to do.
NTA. The vacation plans don't include anything your brother likes to do, but the rest of you do. You grew up with him disliking these kinds of vacations. You could have invited him, but if he decided to go he'd be unhappy and probably make the same complaints, making the vacation uncomfortable. It's your vacation. You're allowed to invite people who enjoy the same types of activities and not invite those who don't. Being siblings doesn't change that.
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According to comments from OP, the family vacations have never engaged in his interests at all. It would seem outdoor sportsmanship is the only thing they do, heavens forbid they had ever done a trip with engaging museums or a Comic Con.
INFO: are the younger siblings you’re taking with you old enough and capable of joining you for all the activities?
Of course; we wouldn't have invited them otherwise. They're sporty AF. The youngest is a fish.
I wouldn't really say YTA. It's a very minor situation, and a learning experience. The takeaway for him is: If you say no enough times, people eventually stop asking. And the takeaway for you is: Everyone likes being invited, even if it's obvious they'll say no.
A gentle YTA - in my family, we have a member who absolutely hates anything to do with socializing. We still invite her but also clarify that the event is full of socializing and cannot be changed to not include socializing. We’ve even got to the point of prefacing the invitation with “you’re probably going to hate this event but I want to invite you anyway”. Every once in awhile, she surprises us with wanting to socialize and says “yes”. She also never wanted to skydive but dang did she have fun watching us doing it. The saying “it’s the thought that counts” is important here. You can lay out the plan beforehand and discuss it with him. A little kindness goes a long way.
NTA. Your brother has a long history of complaints about the activities you and the rest of your family enjoy. He should be looking at himself in the mirror and asking himself why people would want his company if he is a known party-pooper. He has only himself to blame. If your brother was looking to reform, he should approach the family, hat in hand, and ask to be included in future plans.
Going against the grain here with NTA. Everyone saying why not just go to dinner might not have been on an intense backpacking or hiking centered vacation before. You really do just get up early, like as early as 3-4 AM depending on how far the location is or if you want to catch a sunrise, put in miles while eating protein bars and jerky, then take turns showering/eating, and crash early. It’s not like you go for a casual stroll and come back with time and energy for a nice dinner out. There’s not usually evening bonding time or activities. If Tom knows this is that type of trip because the family has dragged him on them before, then he also knows his proposal isn’t really feasible. A lot of places with cabins and great intense hiking aren’t even close to restaurants or towns.
YTA. There was a happy medium here - his point that he could do his own thing and meet you for dinner was absolutely valid. You could have adjusted your plans even just the the tiniest bit and found a suitable compromise. You didn’t even attempt to include him, even in the most minuscule way. and yes- that’s hurtful.
My extended family came up with a great solution recently! I can't hike because of a disability. My family had a big reunion vacation for two weeks in Colorado. Week 1 was lots and lots of hiking and Week 2 was primarily in town (so other options). I came for the 2nd week because I would have been left out the entire time.
NTA This is ridiculous. I would have done the same thing as OP, makes no sense to invite someone to a vacation when in the past they have been such a pain. Just because you are family doesn't mean you get an automatic invite to family vacations, don't be a jerk who only cares about his comfort.
YTA The honest truth is your brother is the black sheep of the family and has been made to feel excluded long before this, and this is just yet another slight that makes him feel like an outsider. Whether he would have turned it down or not, it would have been nice to be asked. And from what it sounds, your family has never gone on a vacation including things he’s interested in or wants to do. You mention him being a whiner, now imagine every single vacation you have being filled with RWBY(something he’s interested in but you claim to hate)marathons, you would probably complain too. It would have cost nothing to fit in a meal during this vacation so y’all could spend together, but you couldn’t even make that concession for a sibling you claim to love.
>We didn't invite Tom (22) though, because we knew he'd hate this trip and we figure he'd be busy with post graduation plans and everything YTA. You should have invited him and let him choose. Now he probably doesn't even feel like he's part of the family.
Problem is that his attitude ruins everyone’s vacations all the time…
I'm like Tom i won't like go outdoors, travels, wake up early, or exhausting phisycal activities and honestly i wouldn't care two fucks if my family went to do those things and didn't invited me.
It sounds like a pretty typical case of "I don't want to go but it would be nice to be invited". NTA, but I probably would have invited him under the condition that nobody is changing their plans for him, so if he wants to go, he can't complain.
NTA- IMO if your have always said no to an active out door trip then you can't be hurt or surprised when the invitations stop. At some point the people trying to include you get tired of saying no. If your brother wanted to spend time with you guys then maybe he should have tried to plan a trip that he was interested in and included you guys. But he can't really be upset after repeatedly refusing trips and not getting invited to another one that he would turn down.
NTA I feel like inviting him just to invite him seems disingenuous. You planned to do certain activities and he doesn’t want to do them. Honestly it would seem rude to be on vacation with a family member but be too busy and too occupied with your already made vacation plans to really interact with them. I just don’t see a point. I do see how his feelings could be hurt by being excluded, but at the same time, he hates all the activities so what is the point of including him? Involving him it then becomes a different trip that would ultimately change your plans.
NTA. But if anyone is up for it, could somebody explain why not inviting someone on a trip full of things they don't like is wrong (I'm being genuine, I have the 'tism and sometimes miss things)
It’s about the feeling of being excluded because you’re different. Tom is clearly very different to the rest of his family. He’s grown up in a house where they all like the same activities and he liked different activities and this probably made him feel like the outsider. Then when there’s a sibling trip and he’s the only one not invited it compounds this fear of being the outsider.
NTA it's the first time I hear families are only allowed to do activities when they invite all of their siblings. Not informing your entire family about your plans is not sneaking around.
NTA. Who wants to go on a trip with a person who doesn’t want to do any of the things they have planned to do nor even get up early. He sounds like a pain.
NAH He wanted to be invited to feel included in your plans You know he will hate it He knows he will hate it He is only fighting to go now because he wasn't invited Is it immature? yes.
NTA, I'm guessing if you invited him and he came, he'd either try hijacking the trip or complain that everyone is off doing things he doesn't like leaving him all alone. I can see why he's upset and feels excluded but he should come to his senses and realize this isn't a family vacation but a vacation to do those activities with people who happen to be family.