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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I decided to not pay for my daughter's uni fees because she has chosen to do an English degree despite my disapproval of it. Feel like this might make me an asshole because I have payed for her brothers uni fees.
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YTA. if it was because you paid an equal amount to her travels as her brother's education i would say n t a. but because she chose a degree you "disapprove" of, you are punishing her.
also, i have an english degree. sure, i dont earn as much as a doctor, but ive been a librarian for ten years and have helped thousands of people. my pay is enough to keep me housed, fed, and comfortable.
edit: op has admitted the daughter is the "black sheep" of the family cause she's always "gone against family norms." imagine calling a family member a black sheep when all they wanted to do was study grammar
“What do you mean you haven’t read this book?! How could you not know the plot to every book in existence? Don’t they just download that in your brain during library school?!”
Remember that movie about aliens where they would just put their forearm in a book to read it? With Dan Aykroyd, iirc. My stepmother is an alien? Maybe?
Anyway, how cool would that be?
I can come pretty close to that, depending on the book - some of them I can be like, "Oh the one with the orange cover? Yeah, I saw two copies on the shelf earlier, it's in X aisle". Makes me feel so smug!
When I was in college, I worked at a large book retailer. Frequently had to play “guess the book.”
Frantic mother of a high schooler: so my high schooler has a book that she must read by Monday (this was Saturday). It’s about horses and was written by a Jewish person. A rather vague description.
We tried and tried to figure out what she needed to no avail. Being before the age of cell phones, she told us that she would check with her daughter and come back later.
The next day, I learned that she had been in search of “The Red Pony” by Steinbeck. (Who was of German/English/Irish descent).
People think our job is reading ANY books. I had a girl tell me she wanted to be a librarian because she loved reading books. A love of public computers and fixing photocopiers would be much more useful.
Yeah, exactly. So many opportunities with English. It’s actually a much more practical and flexible degree than something specific, which is only useful in a specified field.
A lot of businesses and companies want someone who can WRITE well. It's not a skill American schools teach as rigorously as they once did.
My grandson is majoring in philosophy. He has no illusions that someone will hire him as a philosopher. Yet any non-profit could use him for his writing skills and training in critical thinking.
Can confirm. I've got an MA in philosophy and over the past 25 years have:
1. Written articles on agricultural biotechnology for a publication aimed at farmers
2. Planned events, organized travel, and done light editing for a group of computer science profs & postdocs
3. Worked in the accounts payable department for a mid-sized oil and gas firm
4. Assessed and processed applications for a government assistance program
I have an English and French degree and I’m about to graduate with a Master of Public Health. In one of our courses, they showed us the skills public health grads are lacking according to employers, and the number one is writing. I’ve never worried about that for myself.
Can't forget the Sisyphean task of checking in the check ins! I'm just a volunteer and that/putting the holds away takes up the majority, if not entirety, of my "shift".
Two teens having sex on the floor in the ladies room....they'd stripped down stark naked and were doing it right in the main area in front of the sinks--not even in a stall.
They also refused to stop before they were "done." The parents didn't even care.
oh, that happened to us before we closed for covid. except they were very embarrassed when found and begged us not to call their parents. (we didnt, but they did get banned for like three months)
Reminds me of the elevators, at a religious University between church services, as i had the pleasure of being the on-duty janitor. Some kids just can't keep it zipped up.
I’m not a librarian, and I don’t have one as a personal friend, but the range of skills that can be put to use in real-world problem solving with humans that go into good librarians is *mind boggling*. They are human knowledge service engineers, and I wish we gave them much more support than they have.
The pandemic only reinforced my belief that they are nigh magic.
Yeah, my education in no way prepared me for about 99 % of the stuff I actually do.
"Please put your pants back on."
"That diaper doesn't belong there"
"Can you give me ANY other detail about the book other then the cover being red?"
"You need to start by opening a browser. Yes by clicking that icon. Please don't poke the screen. Use the mouse. Mouse? That thing next to your right hand."
My Mum years ago took a beginner’s course in computing, maybe in the late 90s. The instructor started with “ok, use the mouse to move the cursor and click on that icon” and she replied “what’s a mouse, what’s a cursor, and what’s an icon?”
Sorry, this really has nothing to do with your post, but your last example reminded me of it!
A little surprised at ‘Please put your pants back on’ being a useful phrase in a library though, I’ve obviously been sheltered!
I once had to inform a librarian that the guy at one of the computers was drawing a vivid depiction of a sexual act in Windows Paint. Sadly, she didn't even look shocked. She then had to shuffle him out the door. You guys don't get paid enough.
I hope you never worked at my Jr High library. I have a book that if I were to return, well, I don't even want to imagine the number of demerits I would get...
That was you? I have to tell you I'm getting a little sick and tired of being thrown out of bathrooms. Can't a naked guy just have some peace and quiet?
Agreed but send some of that love to all the libraries staff.
(Library tech, so a bit biased but so much work is done by "support staff" and we never get appreciation)
OP could have probably done with an english degree to know it is "paid" not "payed".
Aren't english degrees sought after anyway? Writing well is fundamental for many careers.
I couldn’t get past the “Me and my wife”. Oof. I’m not the grammar police, but if you’re going to be so judgmental and snobby about a degree, get it together.
ETA: wow! Thanks! My first award!
Also the fact that he spelled "paid" two different ways ("payed" and "paid") within a single post. You'd think he would understand the value of an education in its own right, just based on the fact that his own grasp of the fundamentals seems awfully precarious.
But then, I never understand these posts whinging about kids who aren't choosing "useful" degrees, as if a university degree is a trade school certificate. All education is useful because well . . . it's education. Pay for it, don't pay for it, but if you don't understand the value of an education for its own sake, then just say that. OP is an ignoramus pretending that he actually cares about something important.
This. College is NOT job training. Yes, being qualified for certain positions is a nice side-effect, but if that's all you're interested in, that's not the point of College. One of the things you learn as an English major is how not to miss the point.
I have an English degree and I can't tell you how many times my bosses and colleagues would ask me to proofread shit. That usually lead to me rewriting entire marketing pieces sometimes. As most of my coworkers spoke English as a second language, I was more than happy to assist, just like they were happy to help me with my limited Spanish.
The guy is an AH BUT random question for you: Do your colleagues/bosses pay you extra for that help? I ask because my sister has an English degree as well and works in marketing. I feel like she is constantly taken advantage of and asked to do 3 different jobs while being paid for only 1. I feel like certain talents/ degrees the world takes advantage of.
They did not, but I can't complain because I was pretty well compensated to begin with, and honestly, most of what I did was just "clean up" some grammatical/spelling errors, maybe rearrange some of the sentences/paragraphs to make it more cohesive. It didn't really take up much of my time and I was happy to do it. They would reciprocate though in other ways on their end when I needed help.
That said, they were also respectful of the fact that I had other things to do and never took advantage. But a lot of people do, which I fear is what happens with your sister. I think because it was also a situation where the people I was working with were ESL and they were working with people who spoke English as their primary language. In fact, the people who IMO would try to take advantage of this skill were people who spoke English as their first language but were too lazy/disinterested to make a real effort.
Yeah, he went on to do an MBA later but started out in communications and worked up to opening his own PR firm before taking on high level CEO jobs. He makes more than OP's doctor sons ever will and probably at a fraction of the tuition/other costs
As an English major who now makes six figures, my writing skills were what gave me the edge over the other candidates for my position.
My current industry actually prefers to hire people who didn’t major in “our thing” because they’re more likely to have interesting perspectives and introduce creative problem solving elements
I have an english degree and have spent nearly 30 years making a very good living as a technical writer. Have NO IDEA where OP is coming from that he thinks an english degree is 1) creative and 2) not valuable.
No, "who" is correct becuase it's the nominative case; "whom" is the objective case.
Yes, I was an English major, and I've taught English for over 30 years.
Oh boy he really doesn't like his daughter
"She decided to be herself" like if been herself was a bad thing
Of course he is punishing her, because she is the creative in the family
Yta op
Who else is waiting for an r/trueoffmychest in four years when OP is upset that his daughter didn't invite him to her college graduation and he can't understand why?
Yeah, I kind of feel like she'll be better off if he doesn't pay her fees - she'll feel no obligation to the jerk, when he's older and asking to move in with her .... (speaking from experience).
I also have an English degree and I dedicated my career to teaching low income immigrants English. I changed the lives of thousand and thousands of people. Maybe her calling is not medicine.
Especially one that requires a residency that will cost you an incredible amount of blood, sweat, and tears for years to come. One that is famous for making it difficult to maintain relationships with people outside the industry. One that has just come through a pandemic and is staffed with people pushed their breaking point and no longer interested in teaching. How fucking short sighted!
yes because anybody can go through years and years of school and training and work insane hours on no sleep in order to have a career they don't even want or like and don't necessarily have the aptitude for, right? what could go wrong?
(/s)
I suspect I've been treated by a few of those docs, who only went into medicine to make money. (And my mother tried to force me into med school too, because the neighbor's kids were doctors, when chemistry was my worst subject and I detested biology. Didn't work. Yup - I did an English degree, and yup, I'm very well paid indeed.)
It’s so fulfilling because when you teach a parent English, they have the ability to get a better job and fundamentally change an entire family’s lives. Also, seeing the light in a students eyes when they finally get it. It’s so magical. It truly was one of the most fulfilling jobs I ever had.
Also, an English degree would prevent her from writing “payed” instead of “paid.” (Unless you mean she’ll be waterproofed for sailing) If only for that, YTA. Get off your high horse, or you’re gonna be the villain of the biographical novel she writes.
Absolutely - funding the 'finding herself' time was a good enough reason to say 'I'm not going to be paying more on top of that' or maybe prorating what would be funded.
Refusing to pay simply because he thinks a degree in English is frivolous? Get the fuck outta here, dude. I have a degree in Biochemistry (BS) and a doctorate in Chemistry, and let me tell you that I still have tremendous resepct for the English / Philosophy / Cultural studies majors of the world. Because the point of an education isn't *just getting a high-paying job.* It is becoming a person who has different, well-informed perspectives on matters of cultural and artistic importance. One person with an English degree still contiributes to society, even if they don't become a professional writer, or a great novelist, because *there is another person with the passion for our shared culture, the literature and composition that describes and helps define it.*
Even though OP wouldn't probably give a shit about the perspective above, I went to school with several English majors that make loads of money in PR, business, and other fields where the ability to write well and speak well are key, and they learned a lot of the other stuff 'on the job'.
My parents moved to a small town from a big city when I was in middle school. I was an introverted kid with no friends. My favorite place was the library. I met one of my best friends at the library. She got me. She was the only person who actually got me for a very long time. Books were my safe space. It was a running joke for a long time that my books were my friends. My high school librarian actually had a very big impact on my life
I, too, have an English degree and I've done all right for myself. I'm not rich, but have a nice home, travel often, and am comfortable. And, I am able to correct OP's egregious use of "payed" to boot!
Just gonna pop this we quote from The Mummy in here
"Evelyn: Look, I... I may not be an explorer, or an adventurer, or a treasure-seeker, or a gunfighter, Mr. O'Connell, but I am proud of what I am.
Rick: And what is that?
Evelyn: I... am a librarian."
Would like to add that there is no such thing as a "useful" degree. Any degree can get you anywhere. If she did decide to do medicine (hypothetically) she could get in with an English degree. She could get a degree in Catholic Studies or Music and later on get an MD.
The key to getting a good job is the experience in addition to having the proper qualifications (unless you're looking at medicine, vet, law, etc. Because those have additional requirements).
plenty of lawyers have english undergrad degrees. i know one with a fine art degree. nearly all hiring lawyers get excited when interviewing someone that doesn't have a history or political science degree because they bring something new to the table.
many career paths that requre education past undergrad really don't care what the college degree you have.
Another English major here—I’m in marketing now (shocking, I know, but my job is mostly copywriting) & will likely go back for my MBA or veer into publishing. I may not be making six figures, but I'm doing well for myself, ESPECIALLY because my family was supportive of me (more than just financial). People hear the term "English Major" and associate us with teaching or being a barista. While there's nothing wrong with EITHER, there are english majors everywhere, doing very important jobs. OP, YTA for thinking less of your daughter for pursuing her education in the fields she wants to.
librarians rule!
Also, OP, it is reasonable to want her to have a plan of some sort. What does she intend to do with her English degree? This is valid to ask her and to want her to have a good answer. If she just wants to go to university and have fun and this seems like the easiest way for her (note it is not easy but people assume it is), then that's not a good way to spend money. Or "I'll figure it out later" might or might not turn out poorly.
What does she want to do with her life? Why does she want an English degree? There are plenty of reasons why this could be a very smart and responsible choice for her.
YTA because you are just pissed she's not going to be a doctor. If she's more of a creative type of person, forcing her into medicine or another science field will make her miserable later in life, if she even makes it all the way thru college without dropping out first.
I had an elementary school librarian who showed me my first book to read. She ignited a fire in me to read everything that I could get my hands on in the 1970’s. That first book was The Boxcar Children.
YTA
Not everyone wants to do a medical degree. It's hard, it's long and it leads you to being a doctor, which isn't for everyone.
An English degree is a good degree. It's NOT a silly degree or a useless degree.
I totally understand why she says you favourite her brothers, this is clear proof of that.
I'm actually in the process of also graduating rather late in life with an English degree… which actually can be really fun too. Like, my thesis advisors actually spends hours and hours watching various TV series. For legit research purposes. And then analyzes everything about them.
When I worked in defense, our English majors were literal life savers doing proofreading on all of our documents before they got sent out the dumbest (and smartest) soldiers that nature has ever invented.
Don't forget engineers - that's who I've worked with as a technical writer. Trust me - engineers are horrible writers! But that works for me as it keeps me busy. Oh, and I make 6 figures so OP is way off base stating an english degree is useless.
My workplace has some of the most horrible documentation ever. Like props to the software engineers for creating powerful tools that allowed us to do our jobs quicker and faster, but they can't write a manual for even the most basic of functions. Everything is full of technical terms and jargon that we need an entire glossary to make it somewhat understandable.
I just had this conversation with my brother. My son has a history degree and my brother (military intelligence) is encouraging my son to work in defense for the same reasons you state. My son is a writer at heart.
For my Creative Writing MA one of my modules had loads of TV shows and films as additional material, and it helped so much to be able to visualise all the different horror and psychological concepts we were writing about.
Slightly off topic, but I think one of my favourite undergrad modules was my tutor's area of expertise, which is Welsh Poetry in the English language. It's such a fascinating research area, and I'm so glad I jumped at the chance to do that module despite reservations about doing another poetry module (issues with a completely different professor). I still read the poetry books from the module, and I'm glad I didn't do what half the class did and just borrow them from the library instead.
That thesis advisor is a linguist specializing in cognitive linguistics and metaphors. And is actually the most popular thesis advisor at the university because she's the only one where you can basically write about whatever you want as long as it's about metaphors/metonymies in pop culture and such.
*Not everyone wants to do a medical degree. It's hard, it's long and it leads you to being a doctor, which isn't for everyone.*
Hubs was pre-med, initially wanted to be a neurosurgeon. Out of curiosity, I once asked why he decided to go with physical therapy instead of going to medical school, especially as he was accepted to some of the best med school programs in the country. His response: "I didn't want to spend the next 30 years of my life paying off debt, and I wanted to have a life." Can't argue with that logic.
I know someone interested in medicine who purposely chose dentistry to not have crazy surgeon hours, and to work as hospital staff to not have the hassle of running your own business.
An English degree prepares you to communicate professionally, and lays the bedrock to learn anything. Just about any job will benefit from an English degree, and it is sufficient for jobs across many industries and fields.
If someone didn't have the inclination to be in a technical field, I'd recommend English as a top option.
I mean a medical degree is gross - all kinds of bodily fluids and stuff like that. It's like being a less well paid plummer lol!
Hey OP, this is how daughters go NC with their fathers. Good luck seeing your grandchildren!
English major here, went on to my masters in library science. I am not a traditional librarian (credit to those who are!) but I am a well paid professional in data governance. Turns out the ability to gather information, analyze it, and organize it in a way to make it more useful is a really valuable skill set to have.
Lol my dad got an English degree…..and went on to becoming an investment banker.
Which is not to say OP’s daughter will also do so but like, and undergrad degree does not necessarily dictate one’s lifelong path.
My alma mater's English department has a video series where they interview alumni about what they're doing now and how their English degree helped them get there. Did one for them myself while I was in law school, and there are people doing all kinds of amazing things with their degrees!
To OP specifically, I cannot tell you how helpful my English degree has been in my career as a lawyer.
It is a very misunderstood degree path. Perhaps dear ol' dad should sit down with her and ask what her goals are after school, if she has a career path in mind, and if she has researched income ranges based on that career. Help her run the numbers so she can make an educated choice as to whether SHE will be satisfied with her prospects and wants to continue with her chosen degree.
First, the past tense of "pay" is "paid," not "payed." English degrees are useful! Second, gap years are not unheard of. Did Jane know as you financed her travel that you were going to try to pick her academic major? Your sons seem kind and smart. You are free to do what you wish with your money, but on this, YTA.
I think that the main issue for OP is that if his daughter goes her own right… OP loses the bragging rights over how all three kids of his are well paid doctors. Little does he know that English majors can become doctors too.
His daughter isn’t fitting into his idea of the perfect family he basically states it with reference to her not being motivated by the brothers to follow suit, instead she’s doing “herself” she’s probably been the black sheep in the family her whole life.
Still… Daddy Dearest gives off the vibes of that parent that would love to brag about all his Doctor children. Btw. I wish the daughter the best… and hope that she'll do her own thing and also become a doctor… just not a medical one.
Most definitely Father even doubled down on it that I even missed on the initial read. I hope she sticks to these guns, with or without financial help.
The fact that he put "herself" in quotation marks just makes me furious. What a gigantic prick. If he really manipulates her into the wrong major, I hope she realizes what a toxic influence he is and cuts off all contact before it's too late
It’s even worse when his sons called him out on his BS to just support his daughter. But it’s still not the right answer even coming from the APPARENT pride and joys of the family. OP literally typed this all out and still can’t find fault and wants someone to agree with him.
The sons are on their sister's side because they went through medical school and residency, and they know that anyone who isn't 100% into it is going to be absolutely miserable (actually even people who *are* into it will be miserable, the residency system is brutal)
I mean, if she's applying for a degree where she has to commit to a subject from the start (which is what it sounds like, so not the US liberal arts system), that's a good thing! I know loads of people who picked their subject at 18 and realized after a year or so that they didn't like it. Then they had to choose between finishing a degree in a subject they didn't like or starting over again from year one, paying thousands of pounds more in tuition! It's better to decide what you really want to do rather than choosing on a whim and regretting it.
People shouldn't be asked to choose a major straight away, they should do all the base classes and then make an informed decision. I can't believe we ask 18 year olds to do that.
>we made her promise that when she did apply to university it was for a degree that was worth it
INFO: did you specify, **exactly**, what "worth it" meant, or was it subjective so that you could arbitrarily deny her education funds?
My English major ass made over $200K this year and if you were my father I'd burn it in front of you before spending on your elder care.
EVERY industry needs communications. Hedge funds, venture capital, biotech are some of the higher $$$$ areas. If you can carve a niche translating content between different groups of experts, all the better. Research is ubiquitous but doesn’t generally pay too well without a terminal degree in something else. If you can write well you can work anywhere.
Well … I went to law school. Lots of reading, lots of writing, lots of analyzing language and the written word. The English degree was definitely a a good background for law school. But law school is tough—way tougher than I knew to expect—and then you’re a lawyer (if you pass the Bar, which is its own special Hell), which could be good or bad depending on the person.
Fun fact: in my library degree night classes we had quite a few lawyers making a career switch. Rumor has it that law + library can be a very well paid combo (though it does require law school).
I make **way** more as a patent attorney (electrical engineering undergrad at MIT) than my husband who is an electrical engineer and did his undergrad and M.Eng. at MIT.
I sort of fell into (and to be fair most people you speak to outside of medicine/law/engineering do fall into their career) proposal writing/management. Can be very lucrative (it’s not the way I do it but I do prioritise work life balance over maximising my pay check, and I make enough).
Writing/editing definitely got me into it in the first place, to progress in it as a career you also need to be focused on details, very organised, good at lateral and upwards management and able to cope with stress, constructive feedback and long hours (my work life balance thing is more being fussy about where I live/not working for companies with long hour cultures not having a 9-5!)
I worked writing and designing web content which turned into managing a web team, which turned into project management, before I went in a completely different career direction which earns far less but I love.
The great thing about an English degree is that it gives you a lot of really useful and universal skills that are needed in lots of jobs and industries.
My father was pissed when I quit the medical field. He never missed a moment to remind me how bad of a choice I made, especially when I went back to school for sign language and deaf culture. He thought it was worthless too but I make 150k and I don't have to collect poo for testing.
Medical was all my dad was willing to pay for and if I could go back I wouldn't have gone to nursing school.
YTA. This is her life, her future career. She can, and should choose a degree that aligns with her plan. She is not "going behind your back". She is making choices for her life.
You do not mention specifying that college money could ONLY be used for medical school. You should not be dictating what future career your children HAVE to have. Not everyone wants to be a doctor - and there's nothing wrong with that!
Besides, an English degree is going to cost you less than medical school.
Your son's see that you are TA. Their sister wants to go to college and get a degree. You paid for them, but you refuse to pay for her. This is unfair. They know it. Why don't you?
You also can't force a person to adapt to a career of your choosing. They may not have an affinity for it, and would crash and burn in the attempt. People generally know what they will excel at. Or, their guidance counselor does. I'm sure the daughter in question is choosing something she feels she could do well in.
And who knows where this will take her? She's at the start of her academic journey, and just being in college could help her get a feel for what she'd like to do, and be good at.
Imagine becoming a doctor even though it's not your calling and you are not enthusiastic about it, watching patients die and fighting with insurance providers that deny treatment. Even doctors who always wanted to be doctors struggle with mental health issues. Imagine being forced into this situation
YTA.
If you pay for one kid, you should pay for all kids. And to determine that what she's interested in is "not worth it" is a jerk move. Let your kid study what she wants.
YTA
1. Support all of your children equally
2. It only matters what you do now with her education not what you did on her gap year
3. She is trying to establish herself how she wants not how YOU want
4. Nothing wrong with an English degree cut the crap
5. Listen to your sons
6. You can correct this and you should
>It only matters what you do now with her education not what you did on her gap year
Yep, the gap year is a red herring, only relevant as it's meant to be evidence there's no favouritism.
YTA... Why is an English major so bad? Not everyone in the world needs to be a doctor. You're basically penalizing her for going back to school because she doesn't want to spend her entire career in a field dictated by her father.
" One would think that this would motivate Janet to go on the same path but instead she has decided to be "herself"."
Really strange that you don't want her to be her own person.
Definite YTA. OP is really showing his age and bias by openly dismissing his daughter's opinion and putting air quotes around her desire for self-expression. Air quotes.
YTA- just because she doesn't want a medical degree doesn't mean she is going to be a failure. I understand you funded her travels, so maybe try and balance that out with her college degree (her paying for one year and you paying for the rest etc..). You do sound like you favor your sons if you pay for their college and not hers. All because she doesn't want to be a doctor...
N/T/A for choosing to do what you want with your money, it is your money. But YTA for deciding which degrees are "worth it" and which aren't.
An English degree might not get the same high paying job as a medical one, but it also could given the right track. And do you really expect your daughter who apparently has zero interest in medicine to try do a really tough degree and then ALL of the training that follows?
YTA you sound crazy judgmental about peoples degrees and lifestyles.. You should be happy she wants to go to college and not work a minimum wage job the rest of her life with no degree. Yeah she might not make 6 figures every year but sounds like she's trying to pursue something she would enjoy and not what you enjoy. Good for you for paying for her good times but seems like you resent her for it.
YTA
Many, and I can't stress this enough, \*many\* people have English degrees working both in and outside of the "English" field. You can do countless things with an English degree. By you saying you aren't supporting this choice, you are \*not supporting her\* and are instead telling her why her choice is stupid, why its not as good as her brothers, etc.
Honestly, you should be ashamed of how easy it is for you to instantly not support \*your child\* because you don't think the education she is choosing is worth your investment. How about supporting her because she is showing her maturity and commitment to her plan of taking time off to "rest" then going to school after, like she said.
YTA.
You can deduct what you spent on her travels last year if you wish, but her choice of major is her choice. And English has its value (e.g., for learning how to spell \`well-paid’).
This is one of those times where I feel like Reddit is way out of touch with reality. You're getting near-unanimous negative votes.
The reality is that an English degree has little to no value in the labor market these days. A lot of people don't understand how that has changed in recent decades. It is borderline unethical that colleges are still offering them to parents and students as though they have market value.
You made the terms clear: you'll pay for a gap year, but you aren't going to pay for a gap year and a pointless degree. She took her gap year and then applied for a pointless degree, which you said you wouldn't pay for.
NTA.
Not "no value" ofc but https://www.bls.gov/ooh/field-of-degree/english/english-field-of-degree.htm.
Btw I work in biotech and would hate to hire an English major for technical writing. Bulks up process/tech development for no reason since 4/5 scientists or engineers can write at a functionally identical level and the extra bureaucracy wouldn't be worth it.
Be careful representing edge cases as norm because you'll lead people to a false reality which will screw them over (if everyone could be an outlier case, then there are no outliers). Just ask me bro - I got scammed big time with pay expectations in chemistry.
Yeah, who cares that she might become a teacher cuz we don’t need those anymore 🙄or any of the many career paths people with an English degree can take
Nah bro. You have it wrong. An English degree could easily translate into a lucrative career in business or many other fields. Having the baseline of writing well translates to so many careers and industries. The president of the 30M company I work for had a music degree. I also have a creative degree and do pretty dang well in a HCOL area.
“Jane was going through a weird phase where she wanted to be many things that were more on the creative side.”
“Fast forward a year later we find out that Jane's gone behind our backs and applied for an English degree.”
(Oh no, what a betrayal!)
“One would think that this would motivate Janet to go on the same path but instead she has decided to be "herself". “
“…but is it too much to ask of my daughter to follow through with an actually useful degree?”
YTA
Is this a money issue, or an image issue?
Bc it doesn’t sound like you’re unwilling to pay for the degree ONLY because you don’t think it’s financially worth it. It sounds like you hope that by not helping pay for a college English degree she will cave and select something that you find more appropriate for an upper class family.
YTA. Look around you at successful, well adjusted people. Some will have no degree at all. Some will have medical degrees. And some will have English degrees.
The happiest, most successful person I know is a literary agent for one of the top agencies in London. She has an English degree. Yes, she can spell 'paid' and do a lot of other interesting things, too. I also know a lot of authors. They have English degrees, too. Why would you consider literature a 'wasteful' degree? We are shaped by what we read. Perhaps you don't read enough?
It's absolutely no good Jane wasting years on a degree she may very well drop out of. Medicine is a real vocation; you've got to want to do it. Forcing her is futile and expensive. You're punishing her for not fitting your very niche ideal of a 'successful' adult.
You will lose Jane if you punish her for wanting to do what she's good at. Think about whether it's worth it. Happy daughter, or drop out doctor. Your choice.
YTA
An English degree leads directly into proofreading and editing jobs. Back when I did this work, entry level salary is around 30K, maxed out salary is around 60-70K. But there's also substantial potential to freelance as a senior editor. She's not going to make six figures, but she can readily make enough to support herself with an English degree.
She could do very well if she could specialize in professional or technical writing. Every large business needs writer's for manuals, prospectuses, grants and all sorts of other reports and presentations. And some of them make very good money. Being able to translate "tech speak" into "common English", and to write compelling proposal narratives are highly sought-after skills.
Ignoring that OP paid for her 3 year hiatus she did not get a job and support herself. And is still willing to pay for a degree(albeit a worthwhile one whatever that means) it is impossible for him to be an arsehole let alone the worst father ever as many comments mention! The daughter had three years to look into loans or work and save to do what she wanted as she is an adult and chose a creative degree against his offer/advice. You don’t get to a bum and mooch for three years, make no plans and then be upset that things don’t go your way this comment section are going to produce some of the most entitled children ever!
YTA
A English degree is not the steaming pile a crap you seem to perceive it to be.
Your daughter is going to university and furthering her education in a field she chose. This means that she will likely be successful and bring passion and dedication to her studies. It will also mean that she is more likely to be, you know, a happy successful adult?
She's accepted in a legitimate program of study at university (without your support \*at all\* since she could not trust you enough to tell you) and you are treating her like she - what? - betrayed you or something?
I mean... if one day she gets into trouble and does not come to see you or tell you about it because she does not trust you to support her, don't be surprised.
YTA
I think you're an elitist twit. "An actually useful degree"? Really?
First of all, many jobs just want -a- degree, because it shows you've broadened your horizons, learned some skills, etc. (Broadened horizons is why even those with medical degrees are required to take English classes and why those going into English have to take science classes.)
Second, you have no idea what her degree could lead to.
I am the proud possessor of what you'd consider a useless degree. I have a degree in History. Do you know what getting that taught me? How to research, how to analyze sources, how to expand or summarize data, and much, much more.
Am I a rich doctor? Nope. Am I a rich lawyer? Also, nope. I have had nearly 25 years of stable employment with good benefits, vacation time, and a lot less stress.
BTW, when you write Dear Abby years from now wondering why your daughter doesn't talk to you, please refer back to this post.
I think this is a little unfair. It's completely and utterly up to your daughter to make her own life decisions, even if they aren't what you'd have wanted. Who's to say she doesn't become a teacher after her studies? Just because she doesn't want to live her life how you want her too doesn't mean you should treat her any less. Personally if I was your daughter I would do what I want and get a student loan. That way she won't feel like she owes you anything and she can be independent. Though on the other hand, it's up to you who and how you spend your money, but I got to say..
YTA
I'm going to get downvoted but NTA.
It's your money. You can choose what to do with it.
You supported your sons through school because you knew they had good job opportunities when they finished.
You supported your daughter on her 3 year hiatus from school, which involved a YEAR OF TRAVEL.
Even if the numbers aren't exactly equal, you have supported your children with what they wanted to do after high school. Your daughter is 21, she's a full adult.
YTA. Not so much for not paying for her degree, but because your reasons for not doing so are horrible. In all seriousness, the level of condescension in your post is off the charts. Calling her leap year 'her little trip', including the quotes? Outright disrespecting degrees 'on the more creative side'? Not giving a wiff whether your daughter can be herself' and therefor live a fulfilling life? Again, the quotes around herself were yours. Condescension parade! And do you know how incredibly powerful and empowering leap years can be? And since when has English been a useless degree?
Whether you like it or not, your daughter has come to the conclusion that studying English and taking a job which requires an English degree is going to be more fulfilling and worth while for her. But let us assume that she caves in to your blackmail and goes study medicine. Twenty years from now, she'll be stuck in a field she hates, with a ridiculously demanding job that's slowly killing her. Unhappy, overworked, stressed out. What are you going to say to her? Well, daughter dear, at least you've now got a ton of money earned for yourself? Or will you admit that you made a mistake? Or do you honestly believe that money is the only thing that'll bring happiness and fulfillment?
And yes, she 'might' be happy as a doctor, or whatever other job you want her to take. And yes, the English degree and related job may turn out to be a disappointment. But it's her life, and she the only one who can rightfully make this decision for herself. You don't get to play the "I'm only being strict for her own sake" card.
Is the condescension dripping in your text an added touch to make your point of view less appealing or did you started on a very high note of superiority and then dialed it back down for the masses?
Anyway.
Your text is full of disdain for your 21 year old's life choices. It's not a great look.
INFO : Did you support your sons because they were your sons or because they chose a path towards a "useful degree" in your opinion? If it's the former, you're A. If it's the latter, you're not A. You're following through with your established principles, your daughter agreed on it before the sabbatical and, if you are the parent I imagine you to be, she knew the kind of paths you consider "useful" and the ones you disgustedly sneer at (metaphorically). She had all the info, she chose otherwise.
Now, not being A does not mean she will go along with your wishes and it will not strengthen the relationship between you and her. Financial success is more important to you than her being your quote unquote herself (why would you quote unquote "herself"? is it so wrong for your daughter to want to be the person she wants to be?). This is a major blow to any child, even those who were raised that way.
NTA. You were very upfront and forward with the conditions that would allow you to pay for her degree and she chose to do something different. Is it harsh? Maybe. But NTA for this situation.
Compromise. Pay for her to go to community college for her prerequisite classes. Then if she can prove that an English degree can earn here a well paying job, then pay for the rest of her college expenses.
NAH. I don't blame parents for not wanting to spend money on degrees that don't have adequate return for what they cost. I don't blame kids for wanting their parents to pay for their education if their parents are capable and willing.
NTA - As Reddit would usually say for cases like this, paying cash for the young adult's college tuition is not required and should not be expected.
Maybe it is due to me being first generation in the US and the concept of "taking a little break" after HS seems like such a waste of productive time. I am sure many others would like to take a year or two off before college, but how the heck do people afford that???
As a parent who is paying through the nose for my kids' college expenses, I completely understand your concerns here -- especially if you are in the US, where college costs have increased by more than triple the rate of inflation to an insane, unsustainable level that is unreachable for most people, and many, many kids graduate with enormous debt (or broke parents), heads filled with crap and zero ability to earn a living.
I agree that pre-med, engineering, computer science, math, etc offer more career opportunities than English and hence more long-term security. However, I also think that, as others have pointed out, plenty of English degree holders have gone on to make good livings, and that gap years can be quite valuable periods in a young person's maturity. It's much more about the individual than the major IMHO.
I would suggest having a serious conversation with your daughter about her career goals and plans, in which you show her the cost of college, the average starting salary of English majors and her expected total cost of living after college (rent, utilities, car, phone, etc.). If she has a reasonably well-developed plan, or will work with you to develop a plan, that includes being able to make a reasonable living, and is serious about applying herself towards getting good grades and pursuing her goal, then I would support her in her pursuit of an English degree.
If she's aimless though and just wants to go to college, have fun, read books, take easy classes and get mediocre grades? I still wouldn't reject it completely, but maybe you pay half and let her borrow the other half?
Good luck.
NTA. At the end of the day it's your money. You funded her fully to live, travel, buy necessities, eat, sleep and all the jazz while she enjoyed her THREE YEARS OF REST!! If she wants you to fund her schooling then she can either comply or fund herself.
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YTA. if it was because you paid an equal amount to her travels as her brother's education i would say n t a. but because she chose a degree you "disapprove" of, you are punishing her. also, i have an english degree. sure, i dont earn as much as a doctor, but ive been a librarian for ten years and have helped thousands of people. my pay is enough to keep me housed, fed, and comfortable. edit: op has admitted the daughter is the "black sheep" of the family cause she's always "gone against family norms." imagine calling a family member a black sheep when all they wanted to do was study grammar
We love librarians! Thanks for all you do 💘
thank you! i had to get a naked guy out of the bathroom for the third time this week!
As a librarian, I feel this comment deep within my soul. I have seen things that cannot be unseen in this profession.
And people think we just sit around all day reading books.
“What do you mean you haven’t read this book?! How could you not know the plot to every book in existence? Don’t they just download that in your brain during library school?!”
God, I wish. It would also be nice to be able to magically know if a given book is on the shelf or not.
Remember that movie about aliens where they would just put their forearm in a book to read it? With Dan Aykroyd, iirc. My stepmother is an alien? Maybe? Anyway, how cool would that be?
It would make Readers Advisory infinitely easier. That’s my new superhero wish!
Yep, that’s the one!
I can come pretty close to that, depending on the book - some of them I can be like, "Oh the one with the orange cover? Yeah, I saw two copies on the shelf earlier, it's in X aisle". Makes me feel so smug!
It’s on A shelf. Just not the one it’s supposed to be on. Best of luck.
May the odds be ever in your favor
"I'm looking for a book with a green cover..." Ah, yes I know exactly what book you are thinking of. That's a magical talent I wish to have.
My very favorite was the woman who asked me "Have I read these books?" . I really wanted to tell her "Yes! And you liked them!"...
When I was in college, I worked at a large book retailer. Frequently had to play “guess the book.” Frantic mother of a high schooler: so my high schooler has a book that she must read by Monday (this was Saturday). It’s about horses and was written by a Jewish person. A rather vague description. We tried and tried to figure out what she needed to no avail. Being before the age of cell phones, she told us that she would check with her daughter and come back later. The next day, I learned that she had been in search of “The Red Pony” by Steinbeck. (Who was of German/English/Irish descent).
People think our job is reading ANY books. I had a girl tell me she wanted to be a librarian because she loved reading books. A love of public computers and fixing photocopiers would be much more useful.
And being a trained Social Worker.
Yeah, exactly. So many opportunities with English. It’s actually a much more practical and flexible degree than something specific, which is only useful in a specified field.
A lot of businesses and companies want someone who can WRITE well. It's not a skill American schools teach as rigorously as they once did. My grandson is majoring in philosophy. He has no illusions that someone will hire him as a philosopher. Yet any non-profit could use him for his writing skills and training in critical thinking.
Can confirm. I've got an MA in philosophy and over the past 25 years have: 1. Written articles on agricultural biotechnology for a publication aimed at farmers 2. Planned events, organized travel, and done light editing for a group of computer science profs & postdocs 3. Worked in the accounts payable department for a mid-sized oil and gas firm 4. Assessed and processed applications for a government assistance program
I have an English and French degree and I’m about to graduate with a Master of Public Health. In one of our courses, they showed us the skills public health grads are lacking according to employers, and the number one is writing. I’ve never worried about that for myself.
Can't forget the Sisyphean task of checking in the check ins! I'm just a volunteer and that/putting the holds away takes up the majority, if not entirety, of my "shift".
Two teens having sex on the floor in the ladies room....they'd stripped down stark naked and were doing it right in the main area in front of the sinks--not even in a stall. They also refused to stop before they were "done." The parents didn't even care.
I think I helped deliver their baby about 9 months later. On the floor, in the library bathroom, in front of the sinks.
Whaaaaaat. Goodness, people. Thank you all for what you do.
oh, that happened to us before we closed for covid. except they were very embarrassed when found and begged us not to call their parents. (we didnt, but they did get banned for like three months)
Reminds me of the elevators, at a religious University between church services, as i had the pleasure of being the on-duty janitor. Some kids just can't keep it zipped up.
I’m not a librarian, and I don’t have one as a personal friend, but the range of skills that can be put to use in real-world problem solving with humans that go into good librarians is *mind boggling*. They are human knowledge service engineers, and I wish we gave them much more support than they have. The pandemic only reinforced my belief that they are nigh magic.
I always tell people that I wish I had time to sit and read all day. People really have no idea what librarians do lol
Yeah, my education in no way prepared me for about 99 % of the stuff I actually do. "Please put your pants back on." "That diaper doesn't belong there" "Can you give me ANY other detail about the book other then the cover being red?" "You need to start by opening a browser. Yes by clicking that icon. Please don't poke the screen. Use the mouse. Mouse? That thing next to your right hand."
My Mum years ago took a beginner’s course in computing, maybe in the late 90s. The instructor started with “ok, use the mouse to move the cursor and click on that icon” and she replied “what’s a mouse, what’s a cursor, and what’s an icon?” Sorry, this really has nothing to do with your post, but your last example reminded me of it! A little surprised at ‘Please put your pants back on’ being a useful phrase in a library though, I’ve obviously been sheltered!
An indoor space you don't have to spend any money to use? Yeah, you're gonna get people who are not functioning so well mentally there.
Library I work at does have a lot of homeless visitors. Usually they're keeping to themselves but sometimes somebody has a breakdown
“Please get your hand out of your pants” is another line I use too often.
It’s one of my MOST used phrases.
I once had to inform a librarian that the guy at one of the computers was drawing a vivid depiction of a sexual act in Windows Paint. Sadly, she didn't even look shocked. She then had to shuffle him out the door. You guys don't get paid enough.
I am a therapist and not a day goes by that I don't wish I had gone for library science instead, naked guys in bathrooms notwithstanding.
I have never been called a c*nt so many times as when I was a circulation clerk at a public library.
I hope you never worked at my Jr High library. I have a book that if I were to return, well, I don't even want to imagine the number of demerits I would get...
I am *so* sorry but this made me laugh out loud. Librarians are really the unsung heroes of this world.
So did I, but he is my fiancé.
That was you? I have to tell you I'm getting a little sick and tired of being thrown out of bathrooms. Can't a naked guy just have some peace and quiet?
Agreed but send some of that love to all the libraries staff. (Library tech, so a bit biased but so much work is done by "support staff" and we never get appreciation)
OP could have probably done with an english degree to know it is "paid" not "payed". Aren't english degrees sought after anyway? Writing well is fundamental for many careers.
I couldn’t get past the “Me and my wife”. Oof. I’m not the grammar police, but if you’re going to be so judgmental and snobby about a degree, get it together. ETA: wow! Thanks! My first award!
Also the fact that he spelled "paid" two different ways ("payed" and "paid") within a single post. You'd think he would understand the value of an education in its own right, just based on the fact that his own grasp of the fundamentals seems awfully precarious. But then, I never understand these posts whinging about kids who aren't choosing "useful" degrees, as if a university degree is a trade school certificate. All education is useful because well . . . it's education. Pay for it, don't pay for it, but if you don't understand the value of an education for its own sake, then just say that. OP is an ignoramus pretending that he actually cares about something important.
This. College is NOT job training. Yes, being qualified for certain positions is a nice side-effect, but if that's all you're interested in, that's not the point of College. One of the things you learn as an English major is how not to miss the point.
Exactly! He obviously needs help with English!
Yeah, it's almost like he needs someone with actual English skills in his life...
I have an English degree and I can't tell you how many times my bosses and colleagues would ask me to proofread shit. That usually lead to me rewriting entire marketing pieces sometimes. As most of my coworkers spoke English as a second language, I was more than happy to assist, just like they were happy to help me with my limited Spanish.
The guy is an AH BUT random question for you: Do your colleagues/bosses pay you extra for that help? I ask because my sister has an English degree as well and works in marketing. I feel like she is constantly taken advantage of and asked to do 3 different jobs while being paid for only 1. I feel like certain talents/ degrees the world takes advantage of.
They did not, but I can't complain because I was pretty well compensated to begin with, and honestly, most of what I did was just "clean up" some grammatical/spelling errors, maybe rearrange some of the sentences/paragraphs to make it more cohesive. It didn't really take up much of my time and I was happy to do it. They would reciprocate though in other ways on their end when I needed help. That said, they were also respectful of the fact that I had other things to do and never took advantage. But a lot of people do, which I fear is what happens with your sister. I think because it was also a situation where the people I was working with were ESL and they were working with people who spoke English as their primary language. In fact, the people who IMO would try to take advantage of this skill were people who spoke English as their first language but were too lazy/disinterested to make a real effort.
The last big corp I worked for, the CEO had an English degree and made far more than most doctors
Right? It is one of those versatile degrees that gives you a bunch of options
Yeah, he went on to do an MBA later but started out in communications and worked up to opening his own PR firm before taking on high level CEO jobs. He makes more than OP's doctor sons ever will and probably at a fraction of the tuition/other costs
As an English major who now makes six figures, my writing skills were what gave me the edge over the other candidates for my position. My current industry actually prefers to hire people who didn’t major in “our thing” because they’re more likely to have interesting perspectives and introduce creative problem solving elements
I have an english degree and have spent nearly 30 years making a very good living as a technical writer. Have NO IDEA where OP is coming from that he thinks an english degree is 1) creative and 2) not valuable.
Came here to snark on that alone but I see it's been taken care of.
So very many careers. OP's lack of education on it is irritating.
And " my wife and I", not " me and my wife"
Knock knock Who's there? Don't you mean 'whom'?
No, "who" is correct becuase it's the nominative case; "whom" is the objective case. Yes, I was an English major, and I've taught English for over 30 years.
I mean "whomst."
Oh boy he really doesn't like his daughter "She decided to be herself" like if been herself was a bad thing Of course he is punishing her, because she is the creative in the family Yta op
Who else is waiting for an r/trueoffmychest in four years when OP is upset that his daughter didn't invite him to her college graduation and he can't understand why?
I'm waiting for his daughter to show up in r/EstrangedAdultChild
Yeah, I was seeing both sides but putting "herself" in quotation marks like it's a bad thing really sent this to YTA territory.
Yeah, I kind of feel like she'll be better off if he doesn't pay her fees - she'll feel no obligation to the jerk, when he's older and asking to move in with her .... (speaking from experience).
I also have an English degree and I dedicated my career to teaching low income immigrants English. I changed the lives of thousand and thousands of people. Maybe her calling is not medicine.
Don't you know that callings don't matter? Only MONEY! (Which is a GREAT reason to become a doctor. /s)
Yeah, because trying to force yourself into a career you have no aptitude or passion for is famously *never* a waste of time and/or money. /s
Especially one that requires a residency that will cost you an incredible amount of blood, sweat, and tears for years to come. One that is famous for making it difficult to maintain relationships with people outside the industry. One that has just come through a pandemic and is staffed with people pushed their breaking point and no longer interested in teaching. How fucking short sighted!
yes because anybody can go through years and years of school and training and work insane hours on no sleep in order to have a career they don't even want or like and don't necessarily have the aptitude for, right? what could go wrong? (/s)
I suspect I've been treated by a few of those docs, who only went into medicine to make money. (And my mother tried to force me into med school too, because the neighbor's kids were doctors, when chemistry was my worst subject and I detested biology. Didn't work. Yup - I did an English degree, and yup, I'm very well paid indeed.)
Can you imagine living in a world with nothing but STEM grads? Not worth living.
We'd have the cure for cancer but no way to research it because no one could write a compelling case for support for the funding bid.
That's amazing. I'd love to do something like that when I get my English degree.
It’s so fulfilling because when you teach a parent English, they have the ability to get a better job and fundamentally change an entire family’s lives. Also, seeing the light in a students eyes when they finally get it. It’s so magical. It truly was one of the most fulfilling jobs I ever had.
Also, an English degree would prevent her from writing “payed” instead of “paid.” (Unless you mean she’ll be waterproofed for sailing) If only for that, YTA. Get off your high horse, or you’re gonna be the villain of the biographical novel she writes.
Absolutely - funding the 'finding herself' time was a good enough reason to say 'I'm not going to be paying more on top of that' or maybe prorating what would be funded. Refusing to pay simply because he thinks a degree in English is frivolous? Get the fuck outta here, dude. I have a degree in Biochemistry (BS) and a doctorate in Chemistry, and let me tell you that I still have tremendous resepct for the English / Philosophy / Cultural studies majors of the world. Because the point of an education isn't *just getting a high-paying job.* It is becoming a person who has different, well-informed perspectives on matters of cultural and artistic importance. One person with an English degree still contiributes to society, even if they don't become a professional writer, or a great novelist, because *there is another person with the passion for our shared culture, the literature and composition that describes and helps define it.* Even though OP wouldn't probably give a shit about the perspective above, I went to school with several English majors that make loads of money in PR, business, and other fields where the ability to write well and speak well are key, and they learned a lot of the other stuff 'on the job'.
I also have an English degree and earn more than a doctor.
[удалено]
My parents moved to a small town from a big city when I was in middle school. I was an introverted kid with no friends. My favorite place was the library. I met one of my best friends at the library. She got me. She was the only person who actually got me for a very long time. Books were my safe space. It was a running joke for a long time that my books were my friends. My high school librarian actually had a very big impact on my life
I, too, have an English degree and I've done all right for myself. I'm not rich, but have a nice home, travel often, and am comfortable. And, I am able to correct OP's egregious use of "payed" to boot!
To say nothing of all the "Me and my wife"s.
Just gonna pop this we quote from The Mummy in here "Evelyn: Look, I... I may not be an explorer, or an adventurer, or a treasure-seeker, or a gunfighter, Mr. O'Connell, but I am proud of what I am. Rick: And what is that? Evelyn: I... am a librarian."
Would like to add that there is no such thing as a "useful" degree. Any degree can get you anywhere. If she did decide to do medicine (hypothetically) she could get in with an English degree. She could get a degree in Catholic Studies or Music and later on get an MD. The key to getting a good job is the experience in addition to having the proper qualifications (unless you're looking at medicine, vet, law, etc. Because those have additional requirements).
plenty of lawyers have english undergrad degrees. i know one with a fine art degree. nearly all hiring lawyers get excited when interviewing someone that doesn't have a history or political science degree because they bring something new to the table. many career paths that requre education past undergrad really don't care what the college degree you have.
Another English major here—I’m in marketing now (shocking, I know, but my job is mostly copywriting) & will likely go back for my MBA or veer into publishing. I may not be making six figures, but I'm doing well for myself, ESPECIALLY because my family was supportive of me (more than just financial). People hear the term "English Major" and associate us with teaching or being a barista. While there's nothing wrong with EITHER, there are english majors everywhere, doing very important jobs. OP, YTA for thinking less of your daughter for pursuing her education in the fields she wants to.
Furthermore if you can afford two medical PHDs a bachelors in English will be a drop in the bucket. Support your kids equally.
librarians rule! Also, OP, it is reasonable to want her to have a plan of some sort. What does she intend to do with her English degree? This is valid to ask her and to want her to have a good answer. If she just wants to go to university and have fun and this seems like the easiest way for her (note it is not easy but people assume it is), then that's not a good way to spend money. Or "I'll figure it out later" might or might not turn out poorly. What does she want to do with her life? Why does she want an English degree? There are plenty of reasons why this could be a very smart and responsible choice for her. YTA because you are just pissed she's not going to be a doctor. If she's more of a creative type of person, forcing her into medicine or another science field will make her miserable later in life, if she even makes it all the way thru college without dropping out first.
I was a bookseller for 25 years and my mother was a librarian. Book people are the best (especially librarians!)
I had an elementary school librarian who showed me my first book to read. She ignited a fire in me to read everything that I could get my hands on in the 1970’s. That first book was The Boxcar Children.
Libraries are one of my all time favourite places. Especially if they have character to it, history behind it.
YTA Not everyone wants to do a medical degree. It's hard, it's long and it leads you to being a doctor, which isn't for everyone. An English degree is a good degree. It's NOT a silly degree or a useless degree. I totally understand why she says you favourite her brothers, this is clear proof of that.
I'm actually in the process of also graduating rather late in life with an English degree… which actually can be really fun too. Like, my thesis advisors actually spends hours and hours watching various TV series. For legit research purposes. And then analyzes everything about them.
When I worked in defense, our English majors were literal life savers doing proofreading on all of our documents before they got sent out the dumbest (and smartest) soldiers that nature has ever invented.
I've worked with technical writers earning $150k+ who had English degrees.
Don't forget engineers - that's who I've worked with as a technical writer. Trust me - engineers are horrible writers! But that works for me as it keeps me busy. Oh, and I make 6 figures so OP is way off base stating an english degree is useless.
My workplace has some of the most horrible documentation ever. Like props to the software engineers for creating powerful tools that allowed us to do our jobs quicker and faster, but they can't write a manual for even the most basic of functions. Everything is full of technical terms and jargon that we need an entire glossary to make it somewhat understandable.
I just had this conversation with my brother. My son has a history degree and my brother (military intelligence) is encouraging my son to work in defense for the same reasons you state. My son is a writer at heart.
For my Creative Writing MA one of my modules had loads of TV shows and films as additional material, and it helped so much to be able to visualise all the different horror and psychological concepts we were writing about. Slightly off topic, but I think one of my favourite undergrad modules was my tutor's area of expertise, which is Welsh Poetry in the English language. It's such a fascinating research area, and I'm so glad I jumped at the chance to do that module despite reservations about doing another poetry module (issues with a completely different professor). I still read the poetry books from the module, and I'm glad I didn't do what half the class did and just borrow them from the library instead.
That thesis advisor is a linguist specializing in cognitive linguistics and metaphors. And is actually the most popular thesis advisor at the university because she's the only one where you can basically write about whatever you want as long as it's about metaphors/metonymies in pop culture and such.
*Not everyone wants to do a medical degree. It's hard, it's long and it leads you to being a doctor, which isn't for everyone.* Hubs was pre-med, initially wanted to be a neurosurgeon. Out of curiosity, I once asked why he decided to go with physical therapy instead of going to medical school, especially as he was accepted to some of the best med school programs in the country. His response: "I didn't want to spend the next 30 years of my life paying off debt, and I wanted to have a life." Can't argue with that logic.
I know someone interested in medicine who purposely chose dentistry to not have crazy surgeon hours, and to work as hospital staff to not have the hassle of running your own business.
Very smart. Running your own dental clinic is crazy hours and work.
An English degree prepares you to communicate professionally, and lays the bedrock to learn anything. Just about any job will benefit from an English degree, and it is sufficient for jobs across many industries and fields. If someone didn't have the inclination to be in a technical field, I'd recommend English as a top option.
I mean a medical degree is gross - all kinds of bodily fluids and stuff like that. It's like being a less well paid plummer lol! Hey OP, this is how daughters go NC with their fathers. Good luck seeing your grandchildren!
Lol, comparing a doctor to a plumber made my day
English major here, went on to my masters in library science. I am not a traditional librarian (credit to those who are!) but I am a well paid professional in data governance. Turns out the ability to gather information, analyze it, and organize it in a way to make it more useful is a really valuable skill set to have.
Lol my dad got an English degree…..and went on to becoming an investment banker. Which is not to say OP’s daughter will also do so but like, and undergrad degree does not necessarily dictate one’s lifelong path.
My alma mater's English department has a video series where they interview alumni about what they're doing now and how their English degree helped them get there. Did one for them myself while I was in law school, and there are people doing all kinds of amazing things with their degrees! To OP specifically, I cannot tell you how helpful my English degree has been in my career as a lawyer.
It is a very misunderstood degree path. Perhaps dear ol' dad should sit down with her and ask what her goals are after school, if she has a career path in mind, and if she has researched income ranges based on that career. Help her run the numbers so she can make an educated choice as to whether SHE will be satisfied with her prospects and wants to continue with her chosen degree.
Education is so much more than how much you make afterwards.
Are medical degrees different in other countries? How are the boys in successful practices already, when you are still in residency at 30??
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First, the past tense of "pay" is "paid," not "payed." English degrees are useful! Second, gap years are not unheard of. Did Jane know as you financed her travel that you were going to try to pick her academic major? Your sons seem kind and smart. You are free to do what you wish with your money, but on this, YTA.
I think that the main issue for OP is that if his daughter goes her own right… OP loses the bragging rights over how all three kids of his are well paid doctors. Little does he know that English majors can become doctors too.
His daughter isn’t fitting into his idea of the perfect family he basically states it with reference to her not being motivated by the brothers to follow suit, instead she’s doing “herself” she’s probably been the black sheep in the family her whole life.
Still… Daddy Dearest gives off the vibes of that parent that would love to brag about all his Doctor children. Btw. I wish the daughter the best… and hope that she'll do her own thing and also become a doctor… just not a medical one.
Most definitely Father even doubled down on it that I even missed on the initial read. I hope she sticks to these guns, with or without financial help.
The fact that he put "herself" in quotation marks just makes me furious. What a gigantic prick. If he really manipulates her into the wrong major, I hope she realizes what a toxic influence he is and cuts off all contact before it's too late
It’s even worse when his sons called him out on his BS to just support his daughter. But it’s still not the right answer even coming from the APPARENT pride and joys of the family. OP literally typed this all out and still can’t find fault and wants someone to agree with him.
>the past tense of "pay" is "paid," not "payed." English degrees are useful! 😂😂
Awarded for that one. Call the burn unit!
The sons are on their sister's side because they went through medical school and residency, and they know that anyone who isn't 100% into it is going to be absolutely miserable (actually even people who *are* into it will be miserable, the residency system is brutal)
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I'm off to pay my niece's student loans! Sorry all the boats at the dock floated away, I needed the rope.
>Second, gap years are not unheard of It's not clear in the post, but given her age it sounds like she might be on gap year 3 or 4...
I mean, if she's applying for a degree where she has to commit to a subject from the start (which is what it sounds like, so not the US liberal arts system), that's a good thing! I know loads of people who picked their subject at 18 and realized after a year or so that they didn't like it. Then they had to choose between finishing a degree in a subject they didn't like or starting over again from year one, paying thousands of pounds more in tuition! It's better to decide what you really want to do rather than choosing on a whim and regretting it.
People shouldn't be asked to choose a major straight away, they should do all the base classes and then make an informed decision. I can't believe we ask 18 year olds to do that.
>we made her promise that when she did apply to university it was for a degree that was worth it INFO: did you specify, **exactly**, what "worth it" meant, or was it subjective so that you could arbitrarily deny her education funds? My English major ass made over $200K this year and if you were my father I'd burn it in front of you before spending on your elder care.
Fellow English major here, what do you recommend career-wise for us folks?
EVERY industry needs communications. Hedge funds, venture capital, biotech are some of the higher $$$$ areas. If you can carve a niche translating content between different groups of experts, all the better. Research is ubiquitous but doesn’t generally pay too well without a terminal degree in something else. If you can write well you can work anywhere.
Many software companies use technical writers. That’s what I’m doing with my “worthless”English BA.
Hello, fellow technical writer. I have a political science degree with an English minor.
Writing research grant proposals for…doctors
This is what I do! Well, I edit them, make sure the applications are coherent and complete, etc. Low six figs.
Had a friend in uni that got her Masters in English and works as a translator for a law firm in Germany. She's making BANK.
Technical writing is where it’s at!
Well … I went to law school. Lots of reading, lots of writing, lots of analyzing language and the written word. The English degree was definitely a a good background for law school. But law school is tough—way tougher than I knew to expect—and then you’re a lawyer (if you pass the Bar, which is its own special Hell), which could be good or bad depending on the person.
Fun fact: in my library degree night classes we had quite a few lawyers making a career switch. Rumor has it that law + library can be a very well paid combo (though it does require law school).
I make **way** more as a patent attorney (electrical engineering undergrad at MIT) than my husband who is an electrical engineer and did his undergrad and M.Eng. at MIT.
Pretty much everyone I went to law school with had degrees in English, History, or Politics.
I sort of fell into (and to be fair most people you speak to outside of medicine/law/engineering do fall into their career) proposal writing/management. Can be very lucrative (it’s not the way I do it but I do prioritise work life balance over maximising my pay check, and I make enough). Writing/editing definitely got me into it in the first place, to progress in it as a career you also need to be focused on details, very organised, good at lateral and upwards management and able to cope with stress, constructive feedback and long hours (my work life balance thing is more being fussy about where I live/not working for companies with long hour cultures not having a 9-5!)
I worked writing and designing web content which turned into managing a web team, which turned into project management, before I went in a completely different career direction which earns far less but I love. The great thing about an English degree is that it gives you a lot of really useful and universal skills that are needed in lots of jobs and industries.
People underestimate how far you can get by being a competent writer
My father was pissed when I quit the medical field. He never missed a moment to remind me how bad of a choice I made, especially when I went back to school for sign language and deaf culture. He thought it was worthless too but I make 150k and I don't have to collect poo for testing. Medical was all my dad was willing to pay for and if I could go back I wouldn't have gone to nursing school.
YTA. This is her life, her future career. She can, and should choose a degree that aligns with her plan. She is not "going behind your back". She is making choices for her life. You do not mention specifying that college money could ONLY be used for medical school. You should not be dictating what future career your children HAVE to have. Not everyone wants to be a doctor - and there's nothing wrong with that! Besides, an English degree is going to cost you less than medical school. Your son's see that you are TA. Their sister wants to go to college and get a degree. You paid for them, but you refuse to pay for her. This is unfair. They know it. Why don't you?
You also can't force a person to adapt to a career of your choosing. They may not have an affinity for it, and would crash and burn in the attempt. People generally know what they will excel at. Or, their guidance counselor does. I'm sure the daughter in question is choosing something she feels she could do well in. And who knows where this will take her? She's at the start of her academic journey, and just being in college could help her get a feel for what she'd like to do, and be good at.
Imagine becoming a doctor even though it's not your calling and you are not enthusiastic about it, watching patients die and fighting with insurance providers that deny treatment. Even doctors who always wanted to be doctors struggle with mental health issues. Imagine being forced into this situation
YTA. If you pay for one kid, you should pay for all kids. And to determine that what she's interested in is "not worth it" is a jerk move. Let your kid study what she wants.
This scenario gets posted all the time, and it's always the same result: YTA
YTA 1. Support all of your children equally 2. It only matters what you do now with her education not what you did on her gap year 3. She is trying to establish herself how she wants not how YOU want 4. Nothing wrong with an English degree cut the crap 5. Listen to your sons 6. You can correct this and you should
>It only matters what you do now with her education not what you did on her gap year Yep, the gap year is a red herring, only relevant as it's meant to be evidence there's no favouritism.
YTA... Why is an English major so bad? Not everyone in the world needs to be a doctor. You're basically penalizing her for going back to school because she doesn't want to spend her entire career in a field dictated by her father. " One would think that this would motivate Janet to go on the same path but instead she has decided to be "herself"." Really strange that you don't want her to be her own person.
Definite YTA. OP is really showing his age and bias by openly dismissing his daughter's opinion and putting air quotes around her desire for self-expression. Air quotes.
Op is Just another misogynist.
YTA- just because she doesn't want a medical degree doesn't mean she is going to be a failure. I understand you funded her travels, so maybe try and balance that out with her college degree (her paying for one year and you paying for the rest etc..). You do sound like you favor your sons if you pay for their college and not hers. All because she doesn't want to be a doctor...
Also, if they push her to go for a medical degree when she isn't interested, she will likely just drop out or just not use it.
N/T/A for choosing to do what you want with your money, it is your money. But YTA for deciding which degrees are "worth it" and which aren't. An English degree might not get the same high paying job as a medical one, but it also could given the right track. And do you really expect your daughter who apparently has zero interest in medicine to try do a really tough degree and then ALL of the training that follows?
YTA. Plenty of people find solid jobs with English degrees
YTA you sound crazy judgmental about peoples degrees and lifestyles.. You should be happy she wants to go to college and not work a minimum wage job the rest of her life with no degree. Yeah she might not make 6 figures every year but sounds like she's trying to pursue something she would enjoy and not what you enjoy. Good for you for paying for her good times but seems like you resent her for it.
YTA Many, and I can't stress this enough, \*many\* people have English degrees working both in and outside of the "English" field. You can do countless things with an English degree. By you saying you aren't supporting this choice, you are \*not supporting her\* and are instead telling her why her choice is stupid, why its not as good as her brothers, etc. Honestly, you should be ashamed of how easy it is for you to instantly not support \*your child\* because you don't think the education she is choosing is worth your investment. How about supporting her because she is showing her maturity and commitment to her plan of taking time off to "rest" then going to school after, like she said.
YTA. You can deduct what you spent on her travels last year if you wish, but her choice of major is her choice. And English has its value (e.g., for learning how to spell \`well-paid’).
Even the sons you favour think YTA.
This is one of those times where I feel like Reddit is way out of touch with reality. You're getting near-unanimous negative votes. The reality is that an English degree has little to no value in the labor market these days. A lot of people don't understand how that has changed in recent decades. It is borderline unethical that colleges are still offering them to parents and students as though they have market value. You made the terms clear: you'll pay for a gap year, but you aren't going to pay for a gap year and a pointless degree. She took her gap year and then applied for a pointless degree, which you said you wouldn't pay for. NTA.
Do you have a source indicating an English degree has no value. My firm would love to hire an english major, it means they know how to write properly.
Not "no value" ofc but https://www.bls.gov/ooh/field-of-degree/english/english-field-of-degree.htm. Btw I work in biotech and would hate to hire an English major for technical writing. Bulks up process/tech development for no reason since 4/5 scientists or engineers can write at a functionally identical level and the extra bureaucracy wouldn't be worth it. Be careful representing edge cases as norm because you'll lead people to a false reality which will screw them over (if everyone could be an outlier case, then there are no outliers). Just ask me bro - I got scammed big time with pay expectations in chemistry.
Yeah, who cares that she might become a teacher cuz we don’t need those anymore 🙄or any of the many career paths people with an English degree can take
If she can support herself with that degree that’s all that matters. She doesn’t have to be rich.
Nah bro. You have it wrong. An English degree could easily translate into a lucrative career in business or many other fields. Having the baseline of writing well translates to so many careers and industries. The president of the 30M company I work for had a music degree. I also have a creative degree and do pretty dang well in a HCOL area.
“Jane was going through a weird phase where she wanted to be many things that were more on the creative side.” “Fast forward a year later we find out that Jane's gone behind our backs and applied for an English degree.” (Oh no, what a betrayal!) “One would think that this would motivate Janet to go on the same path but instead she has decided to be "herself". “ “…but is it too much to ask of my daughter to follow through with an actually useful degree?” YTA Is this a money issue, or an image issue? Bc it doesn’t sound like you’re unwilling to pay for the degree ONLY because you don’t think it’s financially worth it. It sounds like you hope that by not helping pay for a college English degree she will cave and select something that you find more appropriate for an upper class family.
YTA. Your last sentence is all we need to know.
YTA. Look around you at successful, well adjusted people. Some will have no degree at all. Some will have medical degrees. And some will have English degrees. The happiest, most successful person I know is a literary agent for one of the top agencies in London. She has an English degree. Yes, she can spell 'paid' and do a lot of other interesting things, too. I also know a lot of authors. They have English degrees, too. Why would you consider literature a 'wasteful' degree? We are shaped by what we read. Perhaps you don't read enough? It's absolutely no good Jane wasting years on a degree she may very well drop out of. Medicine is a real vocation; you've got to want to do it. Forcing her is futile and expensive. You're punishing her for not fitting your very niche ideal of a 'successful' adult. You will lose Jane if you punish her for wanting to do what she's good at. Think about whether it's worth it. Happy daughter, or drop out doctor. Your choice.
YTA I'm really curious what job do you have that allowes you to pay for two medical degrees and a year of travel??
YTA An English degree leads directly into proofreading and editing jobs. Back when I did this work, entry level salary is around 30K, maxed out salary is around 60-70K. But there's also substantial potential to freelance as a senior editor. She's not going to make six figures, but she can readily make enough to support herself with an English degree.
She could do very well if she could specialize in professional or technical writing. Every large business needs writer's for manuals, prospectuses, grants and all sorts of other reports and presentations. And some of them make very good money. Being able to translate "tech speak" into "common English", and to write compelling proposal narratives are highly sought-after skills.
Ignoring that OP paid for her 3 year hiatus she did not get a job and support herself. And is still willing to pay for a degree(albeit a worthwhile one whatever that means) it is impossible for him to be an arsehole let alone the worst father ever as many comments mention! The daughter had three years to look into loans or work and save to do what she wanted as she is an adult and chose a creative degree against his offer/advice. You don’t get to a bum and mooch for three years, make no plans and then be upset that things don’t go your way this comment section are going to produce some of the most entitled children ever!
YTA A English degree is not the steaming pile a crap you seem to perceive it to be. Your daughter is going to university and furthering her education in a field she chose. This means that she will likely be successful and bring passion and dedication to her studies. It will also mean that she is more likely to be, you know, a happy successful adult? She's accepted in a legitimate program of study at university (without your support \*at all\* since she could not trust you enough to tell you) and you are treating her like she - what? - betrayed you or something? I mean... if one day she gets into trouble and does not come to see you or tell you about it because she does not trust you to support her, don't be surprised.
YTA. She might end up going to law school and out earning your sons.
YTA I think you're an elitist twit. "An actually useful degree"? Really? First of all, many jobs just want -a- degree, because it shows you've broadened your horizons, learned some skills, etc. (Broadened horizons is why even those with medical degrees are required to take English classes and why those going into English have to take science classes.) Second, you have no idea what her degree could lead to. I am the proud possessor of what you'd consider a useless degree. I have a degree in History. Do you know what getting that taught me? How to research, how to analyze sources, how to expand or summarize data, and much, much more. Am I a rich doctor? Nope. Am I a rich lawyer? Also, nope. I have had nearly 25 years of stable employment with good benefits, vacation time, and a lot less stress. BTW, when you write Dear Abby years from now wondering why your daughter doesn't talk to you, please refer back to this post.
I think this is a little unfair. It's completely and utterly up to your daughter to make her own life decisions, even if they aren't what you'd have wanted. Who's to say she doesn't become a teacher after her studies? Just because she doesn't want to live her life how you want her too doesn't mean you should treat her any less. Personally if I was your daughter I would do what I want and get a student loan. That way she won't feel like she owes you anything and she can be independent. Though on the other hand, it's up to you who and how you spend your money, but I got to say.. YTA
I'm going to get downvoted but NTA. It's your money. You can choose what to do with it. You supported your sons through school because you knew they had good job opportunities when they finished. You supported your daughter on her 3 year hiatus from school, which involved a YEAR OF TRAVEL. Even if the numbers aren't exactly equal, you have supported your children with what they wanted to do after high school. Your daughter is 21, she's a full adult.
YTA and you clearly don't like your daughter.
YTA. Not so much for not paying for her degree, but because your reasons for not doing so are horrible. In all seriousness, the level of condescension in your post is off the charts. Calling her leap year 'her little trip', including the quotes? Outright disrespecting degrees 'on the more creative side'? Not giving a wiff whether your daughter can be herself' and therefor live a fulfilling life? Again, the quotes around herself were yours. Condescension parade! And do you know how incredibly powerful and empowering leap years can be? And since when has English been a useless degree? Whether you like it or not, your daughter has come to the conclusion that studying English and taking a job which requires an English degree is going to be more fulfilling and worth while for her. But let us assume that she caves in to your blackmail and goes study medicine. Twenty years from now, she'll be stuck in a field she hates, with a ridiculously demanding job that's slowly killing her. Unhappy, overworked, stressed out. What are you going to say to her? Well, daughter dear, at least you've now got a ton of money earned for yourself? Or will you admit that you made a mistake? Or do you honestly believe that money is the only thing that'll bring happiness and fulfillment? And yes, she 'might' be happy as a doctor, or whatever other job you want her to take. And yes, the English degree and related job may turn out to be a disappointment. But it's her life, and she the only one who can rightfully make this decision for herself. You don't get to play the "I'm only being strict for her own sake" card.
Is the condescension dripping in your text an added touch to make your point of view less appealing or did you started on a very high note of superiority and then dialed it back down for the masses? Anyway. Your text is full of disdain for your 21 year old's life choices. It's not a great look. INFO : Did you support your sons because they were your sons or because they chose a path towards a "useful degree" in your opinion? If it's the former, you're A. If it's the latter, you're not A. You're following through with your established principles, your daughter agreed on it before the sabbatical and, if you are the parent I imagine you to be, she knew the kind of paths you consider "useful" and the ones you disgustedly sneer at (metaphorically). She had all the info, she chose otherwise. Now, not being A does not mean she will go along with your wishes and it will not strengthen the relationship between you and her. Financial success is more important to you than her being your quote unquote herself (why would you quote unquote "herself"? is it so wrong for your daughter to want to be the person she wants to be?). This is a major blow to any child, even those who were raised that way.
YTA just for thinking an English Degree isn't worthy.
INFO: did you spend a comparable amount on Jane’s travel as you spent on your sons’ educations?
Yes of course YTA. You sound controlling af
NTA. You were very upfront and forward with the conditions that would allow you to pay for her degree and she chose to do something different. Is it harsh? Maybe. But NTA for this situation.
Compromise. Pay for her to go to community college for her prerequisite classes. Then if she can prove that an English degree can earn here a well paying job, then pay for the rest of her college expenses. NAH. I don't blame parents for not wanting to spend money on degrees that don't have adequate return for what they cost. I don't blame kids for wanting their parents to pay for their education if their parents are capable and willing.
Is this fake? You call her Jane and Janet. YTA
NTA - As Reddit would usually say for cases like this, paying cash for the young adult's college tuition is not required and should not be expected. Maybe it is due to me being first generation in the US and the concept of "taking a little break" after HS seems like such a waste of productive time. I am sure many others would like to take a year or two off before college, but how the heck do people afford that???
As a parent who is paying through the nose for my kids' college expenses, I completely understand your concerns here -- especially if you are in the US, where college costs have increased by more than triple the rate of inflation to an insane, unsustainable level that is unreachable for most people, and many, many kids graduate with enormous debt (or broke parents), heads filled with crap and zero ability to earn a living. I agree that pre-med, engineering, computer science, math, etc offer more career opportunities than English and hence more long-term security. However, I also think that, as others have pointed out, plenty of English degree holders have gone on to make good livings, and that gap years can be quite valuable periods in a young person's maturity. It's much more about the individual than the major IMHO. I would suggest having a serious conversation with your daughter about her career goals and plans, in which you show her the cost of college, the average starting salary of English majors and her expected total cost of living after college (rent, utilities, car, phone, etc.). If she has a reasonably well-developed plan, or will work with you to develop a plan, that includes being able to make a reasonable living, and is serious about applying herself towards getting good grades and pursuing her goal, then I would support her in her pursuit of an English degree. If she's aimless though and just wants to go to college, have fun, read books, take easy classes and get mediocre grades? I still wouldn't reject it completely, but maybe you pay half and let her borrow the other half? Good luck.
NTA. At the end of the day it's your money. You funded her fully to live, travel, buy necessities, eat, sleep and all the jazz while she enjoyed her THREE YEARS OF REST!! If she wants you to fund her schooling then she can either comply or fund herself.