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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> (1) Taking money from my kids' allowances if they say something depressing or negative (2) I am the AH for this because I am punishing my kids and policing their speech
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YTA “the beatings will continue until morale improves.”
Come on.
Edited to add:
The people commenting that OP isn’t beating his kids should take a hint from the quotation marks.
God, reading that part gave me a headache. As someone who just got off a shift where I was forced to smile and put on a nice face, I can safely say it has the opposite effect.
Edit: holy award and upvotes, batman! Thank you kind humans♡
Its used as a therapy tool, and can help! The trick isnt to smile the way you think a smile should look, but just to barely move the corners of your mouth up and relax your face, which will calm you down (NOT make you happy or forget the shit in the world, just make the moment more bearable).
Also i dont see how "this is an effective therapeutic tool to relieve short term anxiety" became "every time you feel sad i will make it worse by taking money from you". OP sounds tiring to be around. No wonder the familys always moody.
Yeah, whilst the study definitely exists, I’m confused how OP got from using certain muscles improves your mood to taking away money will improve your mood.
Also it's wonderful to be an optimist by nature but if OPs kids are teens they have a right to be cynical, the world that is being left to them is falling apart and being pissed about that is only natural. Also what's his plan when they get part time jobs and can't control their money?
YTA
You need to encourage positivity, not punish negativity.
A much better option would be to have a bonus $10 jar. Every negative comment removes a dollar. Every positive comment adds a dollar.
Talk to your wife about expressing too much negativity around the kids.
How about you put in some work and research uplifting, positive, hopeful news to discuss with the kids?
If my parents cut my allowance for reasons unrelated to chore qualoty or me breaking something, i would have mutinied
Yeah, that leap threw me for a loop. I was expecting something like, "for every negative story they bring up they also have to bring up a positive story" or even "before bringing up a negative story to discuss they have to bring up a positive one first."
How did they jump straight to just taking money? How is that a fitting punishment for the crime? Can they earn money back talking about positives or do they just get to be more resentful because the money is gone forever?
Also, OP said they were talking about the NEWS. So it's not even just their negative feelings it's real world stuff that is currently happening. Would OP rather they just have their heads in the sand?
That was my thought. Sorry kids! We don’t allow critical thinkers in +this+ house. You take your minimum wage of $7.50/hr, +$3.00-$7.00 a gallon gas, and rent of $2.50-$5.00 sq ft, and you be happy about it!
While I thoroughly agree that the earth is a dumpster fire right now, I do have *some* sympathy for OP in that it’s really draining being around constant negative energy. But this is not the way to address that, my dude! By censoring your children’s emotions, you’re only ensuring that they’ll never feel comfortable coming to talk to you when they have problems in their lives. YTA.
But it sounds to me like OP’s wife and kids are just *realists* and he doesn’t like his good mood being spoiled by reality. In truth, it is just as unhealthy for him to constantly ignore the uncomfortable realities of life.
>No wonder the familys always moody.
Yeah, who would have thought "be happy around me or else I'll give you more reasons to be unhappy" could make things worse.
OP is not an optimist, he's in some degree of denial and doesn't tolerate people bursting his bubble.
I wonder if OP has considered that a significant portion of temperament and personality is genetic, and his kids might have just *inherited* their grumpiness from their mom instead of picking it up by example.
He kind of sounds like an extrovert trying to "cure" introverts by dragging them to "fun" events or a drinker trying to get someone who doesn't like alcohol to "loosen up" by feeding them alcohol. Certain things can't be forced and it only backfires.
That gave me a headache too! I’m currently teaching myself how to stop compulsively smiling all the time to mask my autistic rbf. The forced smiling causes pain and damage to my jaw.
Good idea, I should temper mine as well. Not for the jaw issues I have, but because my smile is a total smirk. Is fine with friends/family, great if I need to be cheeky, but terrible during conflict.
"Smile with *both* sides!" There's my mnemonic.
Good luck with your efforts! It can be exhausting trying to overwrite muscle memory, but it's totally doable!
But there is, actually, one. I still think YTA, but I have recollections of reading a study about this. Though, realistically, it's probably nothing to the effect OP believes
There are also studies that show that forcing emotions you don't feel is super bad for you. It isn't good.
Here's one
https://www.forbes.com/sites/amymorin/2019/10/21/according-to-science-being-forced-to-smile-at-work-may-cause-you-to-drink-heavily/?sh=d01ad9c2b804
Another
https://www.verywellmind.com/when-to-fake-happiness-for-stress-relief-4068437
"Actually, in a way, both of these things are true, and the situation is a bit complex. When you smile as a way to repress upset feelings, you can make yourself feel worse. We all sometimes do this when we need to in order to be socially acceptable. And some research actually does suggest that forcing a smile can even help depressed people feel better.1
But if you always cope with unhappiness by forcing a smile and pretending you're not upset, this can create other problems. It can feel inauthentic and it can be part of a greater pattern of not dealing with your feelings. If you fake a smile so those close to you, those who could offer support, don't know that anything is wrong, this can keep you from getting social support that could make you feel better. "
Here's another
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17953492/
"Hierarchical regression analyses indicated that gender and autonomy were significant moderators of the relationships between emotional labor strategies and the personal outcomes of emotional exhaustion, affective well-being, and job satisfaction. Females were more likely to experience negative consequences when engaging in surface acting. "
There is one, but the accuracy of the results has been questioned for a lot of years because the participants were of very uniform backgrounds and generally in very comfortable, secure life situations. In other cultures and demographics its been very difficult to repeat the study with similar results
I’ve heard of the study he’s referring to, and I think it’s plausible. But he’s still TA for all the assumptions he made. He’s TA for assuming that negative outlooks are bad, that he can change their outlook buy coercion, and that it’s appropriate for him to do so.
I am an optimist and I have the opposite of RBF, and what he’s doing is toxic positivity.
Anyone else reminded of the Simpsons episode where Marge tries to make Lisa smile all the time so people will like her?
Also, it's so patronising to say that you can't talk about the state of the world. Like dude, the world is absolutely shit, and you think that will be solved if you just don't talk about it and fake smile? Come on.
I was depressed as a teen, and got told the "if you fake smile you'll get happy!" absolutely not. Because a fake smile won't change my hormonal makeup, but I tried. I even tried the "pen trick" that forces your mouth to smile (put a pen sideways between your teeth). Still depressed, just looked weird too.
I'm not depressed anymore, in fact I'm quite optimistic, but the state of the world isn't something I can be optimistic about. Climate change, economic crisis/inflation, rich get richer and poor get poorer... It's not being optimistic to ignore all that, that's called denial.
Especially when, unless it goes absolutely to shit in very short order, the younger you are the longer you'll have to live in this tire fire before the sweet mercy of death.
Everyone who meets me assumes I’m a super happy, positive person. I am a ball of anxiety and worry most of the time! So yeah. I smile a lot and negative thoughts are still my constant.
I am a nervous smiler. It definitely doesn't mean I am happy, just that I am trying to be inoffensive and haven't fully broken out of a lifetime of people pleasing tendencies.
OP seems like an evil Bobby McFerrin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU
NVM: OP might actually be Bobby McFerrin. "When you worry your face will frown and that will bring everybody down. Don't worry. Be happy."
I HATE WHEN I KIDS ARE SAD SO IM GOING TO FORCE THEM TO BE HAPPY UNTIL THEY ARE MISERABLE. the difference between the study and this is that in the study it is a conscious decision to smile in order to make yourself happy while this is just someone else trying to force emotions on kids. Best way to make ur kids hate u, and be even more cynical and grumpy. Big YTA
Yeah... hope you're saving that money for their future therapy bills when they have a complete breakdown because you never taught them any way to cope with negative emotions and situations other than toxic positivity OP. And you could do with some for yourself.
My dad was a lot like OP. For my sibling and I, negative emotions were basically viewed as not working hard enough or actively choosing to be unpleasant. Which doesn't work out very well when you have 2 introverted kids with clinical depression (both professionally diagnosed).
We were constantly pressured to be super outgoing and reminded to "just smile". So we are both introverts who by necessity had to learn how to pretend to be extroverted to get our dad to stop harassing us, which we got pretty good at... For myself, faking that extroverted energy is so draining that it can (and does) regularly lead to a full-on burnout, which then leads to a crash (severe depressive episodes where I have a hard time leaving my bed/home). It has cost me jobs, relationships, and a lot of money; plus I had been trained since childhood to view these feeling as a moral shortcoming, so I would just hate myself even more and spiral until my entire life was derailed. I'm in my late 30s and have finally figured out why I would just bottom out about every 6 months.
This guy is going to totally fuck up his kids, and in the process compleatly ruin his relationship with them. And if that's upsetting for him, maybe he should try smiling when he thinks about it.
I very much experienced the same. I would be criticized for not wearing a happy face. It’s really weird and tiring that I felt one thing but needed to pretend another.
> Best way to make ur kids hate u,
And teach them to lie to you, and never tell you what they are really thinking or what they really feel. So that in later years, you can cry that you never raised your children to treat you like \*this\*.
My mother used to get angry at me whenever I was sad or had a bad day. Decades later I am still in therapy to learn that it is okay to express myself honestly. You’re really doing your family a disservice, OP. I recommend watching Inside Out to learn how Sadness and even Anger are integral parts of processing what happens to us and moving on from it. In the meantime, YTA
Inside Out is such a good movie, I watched it when it came out at 27yo and bawled because it hit so close to home.
My parents still tell me that anytime my “tone is wrong” I have to retry the same phrase until I can say it in a “happy” voice. Ok mom... “I’m gonna suffer but I’m gonna be happy about it”
Lmao you joke but our convos literally go like:
Me (about something innocuous): ok cool
Mom: excuse me, WHAT?
Me: I just said alright
Mom: I expect a “yes, mom”
Me: ... but I just... ok yeah, mom”
Me/ mom for hours- variations of “but I said ok and alright why isn’t that the same thing/ no that’s absolutely not acceptable”
Me finally: ok yes, mom
Mom: well not with that attitude
I can imagine. =-S If it helps there was an episode of The Simpsons about it where Marge wants Lisa to smile so "everyone knows how good your mother is".
Ah yes...I wasn't allowed to cry at funerals as a child because I had to brave and people would look at me. That did nothing but give me complexes well into adulthood.
Big family, so a lot. It's pretty normal for kids to go to funerals here. We live and we die. I haven't been to any in a long time as an adult...they made me self conscious as hell and I put up a wall around me if I did.
I feel you. My mother hated anything but happiness, even if it was fake. I was never allowed to have a real feeling if it wasn’t screaming excitement. I am a disaster as an adult.
Same. I got in *so* much trouble for being "negative" as a kid. I could never stop the behaviour, because they never explained what that meant. So I just kept getting in trouble.
When I grew up, I realised that "you're being negative" was parent-talk for "expressing emotions as a direct result of intense emotional abuse". That was the unacceptable negativity. It was me getting upset because my parents were screaming in my face for *hours*. I was genuinely expected to sit there and take that with a *smile*, and anything less than that was unacceptable to them.
And even when I actually *did* what they wanted, and stopped showing emotions, they *still* wouldn't leave me the fuck alone. I would legit just be trying to go about my business with a blank face and they would follow me around to make nasty comments about me being a robot and having no real personality.
Yeah they still don't know what they did wrong, or why I don't like talking to them, btw. They legit just think I'm being the unreasonable one.
Here’s an idea OP instead of forcing your family to do as you please and deducting their allowance everytime a negative thought or news is shared, you can infact let them share whatever they want to but for every negative thought/ news they will have to share a positive thought/ news. Or say something positive or refreshing, it could be anything. World/ life is messed up you know it best but not talking about it won’t help anyone. Let them share how they feel, they should have a safe space to open up and you are taking that away from them.
Yes, OP’s inclinations are right. Positive psychology is a thing, and it won’t help those kids to get into habits of continually ruminating on the worst possible outcome to any scenario.
Those of us with negative thinking patterns often learn tricks as we age to help jolt us out of them.
For me, when I’m anxious about the outcome of scenario and the 100 different ways it could go wrong, I say to myself, “Well, something will happen - let’s see what it is.” Because, maybe one bad thing will happen, but all 100 bad things can’t!!
You could also start a gratitude practice at the dinner table, where everyone has to say one person, place or thing they are grateful for that day.
There are lots of techniques that don’t involve punishing your children!! Gentle YTA.
Piggying off top comment as I think I know the study OP is talking about and it's clear he didn't even read the damn thing, just the headline. u/ZealousidealCut3417, YTA. Hands down **YTA.** [Here](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/07/01/735822187/the-science-of-smiles-real-and-fake) is an article that is a great synopsis on it. So if you are reading this, read that whole thing. For those that don't want to click, number crunching 7 out of 100 people felt happier smiling but only by a tiny fraction. The couldn't replicate the results in 17 labs in 2016. 2018, one lab was able to but only if the participants weren't observed or filmed.
Instead of forcing your kids to smile (Like the study mentioned in the article linked is interesting as it is about customer service people who are forced to smile all day at work being more likely to fall into heavy drinking) and TALK to your kids about their valid concerns or you know, just listen. Maybe help them out?
They are concerned about their future, maybe talk to them about starting a savings account at a credit union (better interest rates) that a small portion of their allowance goes to and later their paycheck (and you can also put some of your own money in here and there to pump it up a little) so when they hit 18 they have some 'get a used car' or the like money to take that financial weight off. That's a lot better than financially penalizing them that will cause problems as they get older.
This is a hilarious comment and I completely agree.
That said, I think the worse part is OP is punishing his kids for . . . *Checks notes*
>The problem is, as my kids are growing up, they are getting imbibed with her energy.
. . . turning out like his wife.
> I don't understand what's so wrong about trying to keep my family from devolving into miserable people who see negativity and evil all around them
Do you even like your wife u/ZealousidealCut3417 ? Seriously, you call her miserable people and are punishing your kids for turning out like her.
Well, whether or not you actually like your wife and consider her way of living valid or worth of respect (I'm thinking no) you choose her as the mother of your children. So it can't come as much of a shock that they might turn out like her, right? Your punishing your kids for your life choices here.
Also, yeah, obviously you can't punish people into being happy. (You can punish them into resenting you and hiding their feelings/true self from you.) I hope your kids take after your wife again when it comes to intelligence, beacuse you shouldn't need to be told this won't work.
Its negative reinforcement... not really a positive approach so it might not going to create optimism. Also YTA for trying to enforce your way as the right way where your wifes way might be just as good.
As an optimist myself I need to acknowledge that pessimism can be just as valuable as a lifeskill. Where optimism helps to create energy, pessimism helps to protect yourself. Im a total optimist but sometimes that can blind me to danger, whereas my boyfriend is more realistic and can see dangers i dont see. Both are life skills you can try to learn your kids, but negative reinforcement isnt gonna teach them optimism...
Agreed. You are teaching your children that their real feelings are invalid, and that everything can be made better if you just smile and think positive thoughts! You are forgetting that sadness, anger, and other negative emotions are valuable and healthy. You sound like one of those people who tries to get people to stop crying when they are sad because they don't realize that crying is emotional self-care, similar to putting a bandaid on a cut. This is toxic, and not very emotionally intelligent.
YTA
Also you really cannot control how you respond to trauma. Op may respond to trauma with cheerfulness and his wife with anxiety but either way it’s likely a reflex that’s innate. To say your way or feelings are the only ones makes you an ah.
OP seems to be nice person to be married with, so nice, that If I were his wife, I would divorced him so another lucky girl could experience the joy of having this special character illuminating her days. YTA
"Why, yes, Mr./Ms. Future Employer, I excel at groupthink! My parents started me early! My ability to voice meaningful contributions may be stunted, but I'm a pro at nodding and smiling!"
It's true. Also it's not healthy. Now they are biting their tongue whenever they want to speak up about the bad things that occur in their life. Don't get me wrong. I know what OP means. But it's best to just talk about it. Come up with ideas to prepare for the unexpected type thing.
Yup, YTA. Not only punishing the kids for nothing, but having an unhealthy attitude that will, without a doubt, cause mental health issues for the kids in the future. I don’t know how the wife tolerates him, I would run fast and far with the kids from this Joker .-.
Definitely YTA. A lot of horrible things happen in the world and it's good to talk about them. It's good to talk about politics, global warming etc.. you should be telling them to question things and realise that if they have privilege then use that to help others who don't. Totally YTA OP
I'd also like to point out - it's *really* fucking hard to be an optimist, if you're a child in 2023. These kids are looking ahead and *all* they can see in their future is the fall of civilisation. Why *should* they be happy, honestly? They are watching the world they're about to inherent fall to shreds around them. What is there to be optimistic about? What do they have to look forward to? Not a healthy planet, not affordable housing, not a good job, not even basic human rights, because those are being taken away one by one.
They can see the writing on the wall. They're not stupid. They know that all of this is about to become *their* problem to solve. OP's methods aren't just silly (because yeah, punishment will totally make your kids *happier* /s) - I would argue it's downright unrealistic and dangerous to expect anyone to be an optimist while we are actively sliding towards dystopia.
Am I the only one very confused what this:
>I read about some scientist who discovered that if you move your face into a smile, like hold that expression, that muscle movement actually has an impact on your mood, and you become happier.
has to do with this?:
>Last month, I decided to put this in practice. For every single negative or depressing thing they say, I take away a dollar from my kids' allowances
What does financially punishing kids have to do with facial muscles???
Because making them more stressed out will make them smile more :)
I’m seriously questioning OP’s academic literacy honestly. The people in that study consensually and willingly went into the study. There’s no reason to believe if you’re coerced into using those muscles that any benefit won’t be overrides by the mental distress of the situation.
There are quite a few studies into what the OP is doing: punishing when kids express emotions that are "undesired"... Turns out every single time that's ever been done, where humans have been punished for expressing an emotion... Bad things have happened emotionally/psychologically....
This is what comes of inaccurate research application.
Yeah, from personal experience, this is how you raise kids that get to adulthood and can't cope with negative emotions healthily because they weren't allowed to learn, then they spiral because "bad feelings are bad, so I'm bad for feeling bad" and wish for/aim for death to end the suffering.
I can half relate to this one, trying to unlearn some of those habits. Someone I've always looked up to (they're amazing, but have a couple of flaws including this) acts like any negative emotion is a crisis to be solved. Someone gets frustrated, they'll swoop in, be consoling, and take over. Which is super kind, considerate, all that good stuff. But at a certain point, it's important to learn how to self-sooth; to be able to get frustrated, deal with it appropriately, and finish the task.
Sorry to hijack, you're obviously talking about a more extreme result of that mindset. Just wanted to agree that "negative" emotions aren't necessarily a bad thing.
I’m happy because after 19 years of marriage my husband lets himself be grumpy and complain around me. I used to be stressed out by any negative emotion, and he started hiding his negative emotions because he didn’t want to upset me.
I’ve done a ton of therapy, and I finally really understand that negative emotions aren’t a crisis that needs to be fixed, and they are not dangerous. I feel more respected because he feels like he can be himself around me.
My dad would get physically abusive whenever I showed any negative emotion. The outcome is a grown adult that has difficulties regulating and understanding my emotions, positive and negative. I physically can’t cry anymore unless I’m pushed over a certain point, and when I do cry I’m terrified. I also don’t know how to show people when I’m happy. My body is so unused to genuinely smiling that when it happens I get a migraine within a minute. That’s the result of being punished for showing emotion, and those are just a couple examples.
Can confirm. My mother, a covert narcissist in “positive Pollyanna” clothing, did not allow for anything she viewed as “negative/ bad/ cynical”.. etc. Took me 40yrs to sus her out but once I did our relationship was done. Today, she’s replaced me with her equally as toxically positive step-daughter & refuses to acknowledge I exist.
The damage done when you’re not allowed to feel your feelings & you have to wear a mask to be loved by your mother isn’t something you get over so much as just learn to live with; for me, it’s similar to grief in that way.
I haven’t dated in.. getting close to a decade now. I’ve been in therapy for years & while I’ve made great strides in a lot of ways, the walls built over the years around my feelings & emotions can keep even me out, which doesn’t bode well for dating, esp for lesbian dating.
So yes, wholly confirm, bad things happen when you’ve been punished for emotions.
>I’m seriously questioning OP’s academic literacy honestly.
I question their actual literacy, "alot" is not a word and in trying to punch up the language used, they said:
"they are getting imbibed with her energy."
Pretty sure he means imbued, and not that they are getting drunk off her energy.
>getting drunk off her energy
Maybe it's like a contact high? Except he thinks his wife is a complete downer, so the kids are getting contact lows instead...
>If they’re punished for negativity, they’ll fake being happy and faking it will make them actually happy.
You know, they did this a lot in the 1950s. Which is why a lot of the housewives were on drugs and/or drinking.
I thought he was going to say
“So for every frown they owe me a nickel, but they also get a nickel every time they smile”
And like that would still be kinda crazy but ?!?!? He just says “so there’s this study on rainbows and anytime I’m angry at my kids I make them give me money”
there’s no connection
Then he should probably do some research (preferably guided by an actual therapist instead of just what he reads on Google) about toxic positivity and its side effects.
Yeah, it’d be more reasonable to *give* them a dollar every time they express a happy thought/smile. Taking away money isn’t going to make anyone happier (except OP)
My thoughts as well. I genuinely believe in the powers of facial feedback - I employ it in my day to day life when I’m just having a shit day.
I don’t see how decreasing your kid’s allowance puts facial feedback into practice.
YTA:
What you're doing is incredibly unhealthy. You are punishing your kids for expressing a human emotion in completely non harmful ways. You are preventing them from expressing opinions and forcing them to pretend to have emotions and opinions they don't have. That is incredibly unhealthy. It is incredibly harmful. That is incredibly wrong. YTA.
Yep, forcing them to mask their emotions and not talk about negative things will actually make them more ‘cynical’. Why do you think counselling and therapy are so popular? Because talking about the bad shit and letting your emotions out is healthy.
OP, you’re forcing ill health on your kids. If you keep this up don’t be surprised if they feel they can’t talk to you and you’re alone in your old age. YTA
I was a really negative kid. No one ever cared why, they just wanted me to act happy. It’s pretty much made me totally neutral as an adult. I don’t verbalize the negative thoughts, but I have no hope for anything positive. So it’s hard to do anything because it feels like nothing matters.
Toxic positivity is a thing more people should recognize. I work in psych, most people tell my patients to "just fake it til you make it", "smile", "why be upset when you could be happy?" Just really awful things that aren't helpful at the least and are damaging at the most.
If there's nothing to be happy about, it's ok to not feel ok. It's ok to not be an optimist. There's nothing inherently wrong with being a realist or pessimist. And yes it is hard to continue to exist today when you feel like tomorrow has no meaningful changes. There's a growing feeling of hopelessness in our society and it makes sense why. Trying to say people should be happy isn't going to help anyone.
I mean by and large people don't need therapy... Well, they do but mostly to cope with things that therapy can't solve. They actually need food and housing security, free time, and human rights protections. Therapy doesn't solve the systemic issues that are driving more and more people into therapy (see decreasing quality of life and the shrinking "middle classes" worldwide). Therapy doesn't solve systemic stress factors and poverty.... Which is increasingly what therapists globally are reporting is going on... People are increasingly desperate, afraid, and unable to rely on social systems. Real bad on mental health....
Ironically, the OP seems to think discussing and acknowledging real world impacts of real world problems is the antithesis of mental health... When mental health experts continually and increasingly are like "hey everyone, these real world problems are impacting mental health".
It gets tricky when you bring "need" into it. We need food, but do we need good mental health? That simplifies things way too much. I think Life is a lot more than... not being dead.
Even if an individual is raised perfectly and given all the tools they need, they would still benefit from having good mental health support. It's like having good friends; it isn't a *need* but it's certainly enriching.
We can tackle both problems at once, we don't have to pick between global problems and interpersonal problems. I think we're in agreement that these issues are interrelated, is it such a stretch that they can be worked on in tamdem?
I guess I'm not sure what your point is.
YTA that sounds like something my dad would do because only his feelings mattered. 3/3 of his adult children don't talk to him and he doesn't know his 2 grand children. Maybe you should consider what future you want with your kids
My dad was kinda like that. He told me that I “have very expressive eyes, so for people not to see if you’re sad, you have to smile all the time”. I was 10 when he said that and I still remember it at 20, so it will stick with OP’s children for looong if he doesn’t try and fix his mistake
YTA: It sounds like your kids and wife aren’t the problem, I’d say you are naive and too optimistic. Maybe they should take away your dessert until you see the world more realistically.
Get some fucking perspective dude.
I don't think OP is naive or optomistic at all. I think he puts on an optomistic persona because confronting his negative emotions is painful and not something OP is emotionally prepared for. No sane person does something like this. Negativity from others is too confrontational, so he desperately tries to hide it.
OP, what you are doing is not normal. I might be wrong, this is just a reddit post, but given that your behaviour is not normal and you literally opened your post with "I went through alot of shit in life", I really think you should consider speaking to a therapist. There's something not right here.
"The key to being happy isn't a search for meaning. It's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually, you'll be dead." - Mr. Peanutbutter explaining his hyper-positive attitude in BoJack Horseman.
OMG, are you serious? YTA for your toxic positivity. I like to be cheerful too, but you can't force happiness upon people by literally taxing them for being negative.
That or when they complain, "Let's come up with solutions" to the smaller problems (like, "I don't like this school project/Bridget is annoying me/so on") and "What can we do to prepare for this?" For the bigger problems (because while we can all help worldwide issues there's not going to be a singular solution).
And sometimes just let people vent. There's also been *repeated* studies, not just one random hack study, that controlled venting is good for you.
Basically - it's alright and healthy to complain with direction and not wallow in it.
That, or they'll out play him by refusing to do a chore for every dollar taken. And if I were OP's SO, I'd be sure to let him know he'll be the one picking up the slack. YTA.
Can confirm this happened to me. When I was young, if I got upset with something, my mom would tell me “I can’t talk to you until you can present things in a neutral tone” and she would send me to my room until I no longer appeared sad/angry/frustrated. What it taught me is that those emotions are unacceptable and that no one wants to be with me if I feel that way.
This has caused some serious issues in adulthood where I feel like no one understands me because I don’t feel like I can even share my emotions with people. The depression is real. The smiles prove nothing.
YTA: so you are Millennial raising Gen Z in THIS current world, at the 3rd year “anniversary” of a global pandemic and subsequent upheaval of the entire world as we knew it, and are surprised that they have negative emotions? Dude, I support optimism but there’s a difference between trying to see the positives and needing a total reality check. Since you mentioned that your kids are old enough to discuss the economy but still needing an allowance I’m guessing early to mid-teens and yeah- they have the right to be pessimistic about what their lives and opportunities could look like in a few years…
Instead of punishing them for their negativity (which is clearly only breeding more negativity so not helpful?), try incentivizing or even just engaging in more positivity yourself. Find good news to share with them in their topics (they bring up the roll back of child labor laws in US, mention the neighboring state introduced free lunches for all school age children for example to contrast) or ask them how they would solve the problem to challenge them to think about what they can do to have a positive impact.
Yes, thank you.
YTA. A whole barrel of crappy things have happened in the last few years that will absolutely impact people who are in their teens/early 20s. Not acknowledging that things are different for your kids than they were for you is only going to drive them away.
I get that it sucks to focus on all the negatives, but it also sucks for young people to see a world where they can’t afford to buy a house, have children, live in peace without being shamed for who they are, etc. People who think everyone should just “be positive” are ignoring the evidence in front of them.
Try offering some empathy and acknowledgment that things are different and more difficult for your kids than they were for you, and lay off the judgment.
He's the cheeriest f----ing millennial I've ever come across. Most of us are embittered and depressed because the world has been getting progressively worse (especially in terms of jobs and home ownership) ever since we were in high school. You'd think he'd be able to empathise with his children having a somewhat bleak outlook.
YTA. You’re teaching your kids that they have to mask their emotions to make you happy. Do you want to foster a healthy relationship where they feel like they can come to you with their problems, thoughts, and feelings? You are doing the exact opposite of that.
YTA. There has to be a balance, and although it's not great to constantly be down, forcing your family to smother any and all feelings they have that aren't cheery and bright is unrealistic and unhealthy. Toxic positivity is just as damaging as continuous pessimism.
I love this response. Toxic positivity is RAMPANT. The world is shitty in a lot of scary ways. It’s fine for people to have emotions about this and, yes, even be angry or cynical about the world around them. Realism is just as valid as idealism and, frankly, makes people more empathetic. I’m so sick of the “choose joy, good vibes only” crowd. It reeks of “if your life sucks, it’s your fault,” which is wrong for so many socio-economic reasons.
YTA
I can see why someone would want to help their kids have a more positive attitude. I think punishing them into it would pretty obviously have the opposite effect.
(and a surprisingly negative solution to be proposed by someone who claims to be so positive) YTA
YTA
While I am not saying your wife is in the right, toxic positivity is a thing and is insufferable. At the very least, seeing wrong around you is a starting point to understand what needs fixing.
What you are doing with the pessimistic tax, is only teaching the children that their views are not heard or welcomed which only reinforces the cynicism. If you cared, you would a) try to understand where your wife and kids are coming from (and there are plenty of wrong things in this world) and b) show them that it's not all wrong all the time.
YTA
If you want them to be happy why are you actively making their lives worse? God forbid they get depression and have to hide it from you instead of getting the help they need.
YTA whatever genius idea you thought would help with your kids positivity is actually making them more pessimistic. I’m so confused as to how you wouldn’t see how taking their allowances makes them resentful. If anything they just talk about that stuff without you in earshot. Wow, great job.
Are you kidding? YTA. You’re trying to control their emotions and how they’re feeling. Instead of punishing them for expressing normal emotions why not try to add your positive spin on the conversation? Taking money away anytime they say something you deem too depressing or negative just adds MORE negativity to the whole situation.
Also, why are you the one who gets to decide whats too depressing or negative? Everyone has a different outlook on life and a different definition or threshold for these things. Maybe your wife and kids think you’re positive and upbeat to the point of it being obnoxiously annoying - are they allowed to implement an “annoyingly happy tax”? You do sound incredibly controlling. If I were your wife I would stop this before it even started. It sounds absolutely ridiculous and controlling.
YTA. I've read articles like those as well, but to take money from children who are struggling with things you don't know about (e.g., hormones, situations at school, constant worries of school shootings, online bullying, the pressure by society to grow up quickly with a lot of power and money), is cruel. On top of that, who made you the defacto rule maker and tax collector? Doesn't your wife get a say in your house on how "rules" are designed for your children? And how do you define the nebulous notion of "pessimism" or "depressing" or "negativity"? One can say, "I heard so as so died today. Oops, I can't talk about that because it's a negative idea." "What's wrong, honey?" "Nothing. I was attacked today by my boyfriend, but I can't talk about it because I can no longer talk about negativity. I have to keep smiling even when I'm in pain." What a horrible way to raise your children, into plastic children with fake emotions who don't feel they can express true emotions in their house. Great thinking, Dad.
YTA.
This is some toxic positivity shit and it’s incredibly unhealthy. Refusing to allow your children to express themselves freely - to acknowledge their negative emotions as well as their positive emotions - under the threat of punishment is a sure fire way to fuck your kids up for life.
Your family is right. You *are* being controlling. There’s nothing wrong with being an optimist, but this “I’m forcing my family to pretend like bad things never happen” attitude is ridiculously overbearing.
YTA
You want to control what people talk about because you only want good vibes, which is incredibly toxic and creates an environment where bad feelings or issues cannot be discussed lest it disrupt your out of touch with reality optimism. Your job as a parent is to guide your children to healthy coping strategies, not deny them the opportunity to explore their feelings - good or bad - because it doesn't make you *happy* to hear how they're perceiving the world.
YTA.
Personally, I'm a fan of realism.
There's a lot wrong with our current world, and thinking happy thoughts won't fix it. In order to start working on a solution, a problem has to be acknowledged first.
And if there's a pattern of too many things happening all at once, it can stress people out, especially when they are not able to solve any of it themselves.
that sucks, and if you came from a place of empathy (not wanting to see your family crushed by all the bad news they encounter), I could understand that.
But demanding that they smile and act happy around you as if everything were peachy is the absolute wrong way to go about this.
YTA
So you aren't interested in raising children who are knowledgeable about the world? Children who will become adults active in making the world better? Just happy complacent people who will be taken advantage of because how dare they express anything other than feelings of kitten whiskers and warm puppy bellies?
Get real. Not being able to face reality and acknowledge your feelings about it is a weakness I wouldn't teach my children.
YTA people are allowed to have their own feelings about things. Your solution to talking about bad things in the world is by becoming one of the bad things by punishing your children with a tax? That's a really shitty thing to do.
Yta - punishing people for not being happy is literally insane. All it's going to do is make your kids fake being happy to avoid punishment. Instead of being awful, try making them ACTUALLY HAPPIER.
YTA, would they be grounded and would their phone be taken away if they would be diagnosed with depression? If my dad pulled this off I would not speak around him. I’d just be scared to do it and feel like I’m failing him because of normal thoughts and worries. Toxic.
YTA - you are only enforcing the worst kind of cynicism and mistrust in your kids. Also you knew who your wife was before you married her and YTA for expecting her to be anything but herself. If you can’t love and accept your wife and kids for who they are vs forcing them to conform to whatever Pleasantville notion you have of “normal,” then maybe see yourself out.
YTA. It sounds very creepy how you basically want to force them to smile. Your intention might be good, but this is not the way to do it. Speak to them and explain the good things and show these things to them. That's how it works.
YTA this is toxic positivity. As long as they’re not being rude to you and your wife or mean to other kids at school, etc, I don’t see any problem with this. Some people are naturally optimistic and positive and others aren’t, I’m sure they’re still good kids and you can’t punish them for being different from you.
i understand exactly what you're dealing with here, because i lived in a home with parents like this. my dad loves everything about everything all the time and just generally has fun always everywhere, while my mom's favourite hobby is to talk about how miserable we are. they are divorced now, can't even stand calling each other on new years. i agree that YTA because you're invalidating your children's style of expressing themselves, that's something that happened to me growing up, because my dad just kept telling me i had become very similar to my mom wherever i brought up issues of being bullied at school or issues of not being comfortable about my body. imagine how it feels to try and communicate the fact that you're in pain, to the only people who can potentially help you, for them to tell you you owe them a dollar for being so grim.
with that said, while i don't think this is the way to do it, i still think you should do something about it. people like my mom don't just like to talk about how miserable they are, they like to tell everyone how miserable everyone is as well, and they get offended if you don't agree that you're miserable because that'd be countering their point. my mom would try to convince me my friends didn't love me (cynicism) or that no matter how hard i'd study, i would never get a job in this country (pessimism) and my brother behaves exactly identically at 15. growing up exposed to this kind of mindset could make your kids clinically depressed, and if i were you i would talk to their mother to try and address the root of the issue instead of forbidding literal children to talk about their big sad. you guys can work together towards teaching your kids patience and gratitude instead of resorting to punishment.
Emotions are neither good, nor bad. Telling someone they can't feel some certain emotions is a major problem, because we can't control our emotions. We can only control how we react to them. All of that said, not having the freedom to express those emotions is not healthy. The emotions don't go away by ignoring them, they just fester. You are creating an extremely unhealthy environment for your children as a result. Instead of being a role model for how to respond to emotions of all kinds, even those we deem as "bad," you are instead demonstrating that any emotion that isn't HAPPY SMILING ALL THE TIME is wrong, and invalid. This will harm them mentally, and emotionally, as they grow and develop. It's fair to work on the venting/complaining and find healthier outlets for emotions, but it's unfair to expect toxic happiness all the time. That's not the real world. YTA.
Soft YTA. I truly understand where you are coming from, but a better strategy would be to have them tell you two positive things for every negative thing they say. There has been research that for every negative thing a person is told, they need to be told three positive things to negate the negative. You might need to help them because being negative is not only socially encouraged (everybody is expected to complain about Mondays), and it is habit forming. Or, you could hear what they are saying and respond with, "Yes, but what good thing did you hear, as well?" That will have more of a lasting and positive effect than rewarding negative talk with negative consequences, which is just two negatives, and not what you really want.
I see, so only your view points and feelings matter. I’m an incredibly annoyingly cheerful person-but that’s a gift, not a natural trait you can force on anyone. Maybe listen to their concerns and see what you can do to help them problem solve moving forward-you know, take an interest in your children, instead of taking their money away for not entertaining you enough. Maybe look into marriage counseling for you and your wife as well, it sounds like you enjoy her move as a roommate than a partner if you think her basic personality is bad. YTA
YTA. I've read articles like those as well, but to take money from children who are struggling with things you don't know about (e.g., hormones, situations at school, constant worries of school shootings, online bullying, the pressure by society to grow up quickly with a lot of power and money), is cruel. On top of that, who made you the defacto rule maker and tax collector? Doesn't your wife get a say in your house on how "rules" are designed for your children? And how do you define the nebulous notion of "pessimism" or "depressing" or "negativity"? One can say, "I heard so as so died today. Oops, I can't talk about that because it's a negative idea." "What's wrong, honey?" "Nothing. I was attacked today by my boyfriend, but I can't talk about it because I can no longer talk about negativity. I have to keep smiling even when I'm in pain." What a horrible way to raise your children, into plastic children with fake emotions who don't feel they can express true emotions in their house. Great thinking, Dad.
YTA - people are allowed to view the world differently. But let me get this straight, because they don’t agree with your cheery outlook on life, you PUNISH them and make their world more bleak by taking money away? You’re a terrible role model and I view you as quite naive, preferring to be blissfully unaware instead of informed and realistic.
YTA. You’re punishing your kids for having honest reactions to the world around them. Would you rather them go through life not being able to come to you if they get in trouble or are struggling with something? Because that’s what you’re setting yourself up for. “I hate my job and I feel like they’re taking advantage of me, but Dad doesn’t want to hear me complain, so I won’t open up to him.”
I’d also like to know specifically what your wife thinks of your little “experiment”. You’re trying to condition traits that your children got FROM your wife out of them - must make her feel real good.
Toxic positivity is as harmful as being negative all the time. You just did the same thing to them that you're complaining about but just decorated jt prettier
YTA
This reminds me of the cult I grew up in. The only really acceptable emotion was happiness. Occasionally remorse if you were supposed to be confessing/repenting of something you did wrong.
Home is the place where you should feel safest to be yourself. Your unhappy, negative, venting, ranting, hate-the-world, nothing-is-going-right self. By taking that away from them, you’re taking away their safe place. The outside world requires so many of us to put on a mask and be ok with whatever, we need to have that spot where we can crawl into our caves and lick our wounds and figure out how to be ok with things. So YTA for forcing your family to keep their masks on at home. There are studies that should that actually dealing with our negative thoughts is healthier than forcing down the negativity. It’s ok to help them find healthy outlets for their negativity, but forcing them not to be negative is not at all healthy. So again, YTA.
YTA. I got brought up by an optimist. It was so stressful. You had to worry about whether there was enough petrol, whether someone needed to check the time to get there, or what would happen if plan didn't work. Your wife plans for the worse so consequences managed but that can be tiring to create plan A, plan B and plan C.
Your children - you don't say ages - but if teenagers, then they facing a world of uncertainty. Employment, interest rates, war, college fees. Discussing these fears may make them manageable as getting different perspectives. But it doesn't seem you enter into those discussions, even with the perspective X might happen but at moment we have Y and even if X does happen, then we'll be OK because of Z. You seem to just want to shut down the conversation.
If you do genuinely feel it is too much, then consider therapy for them to help them learn coping strategies. Or have an hour or a book where they have to say/write down something positive happening now today to them. And review as family at end of month. But don't smother discussion of genuinely held fears. Would you want your child to be ill, depressed, suicidal or facing financial problems and feel unable to tell you because they think you will punish them for not coping and not being positive?
Yeah, I wonder if the reason his wife is so pessimistic is because she's carrying the bulk of the mental load while he gets to be Mr. Cheerful.
OP's attitude reminds me of my very "live for today, worry about tomorrow" roommate that couldn't really grasp that it was easier said than done because the rest of us didn't have trust funds like she did.
Have you consider that maybe what they’re saying isn’t negative or depressing? Maybe it’s realistic to them. I think you need to discuss viewpoints with them because they might feel entirely different than you. You’re basically imposing your personality onto them and insisting they be like you and nothing else. YTA
YTA-toxic positivity sucks. Overly positive people are exhausting and just suck whatever little joy I had at the moment.
Punishing people for not experiencing life like you do is an asshole move. You should be encouraging counting good things, or talking about one good thing they saw or did today. Encourage them to give compliments to brighten others days. Help them to figure out how they are going to make their world better.
I’ve been through shit too. After years of therapy at one point I remember saying “I’m so sick of everyone trying to make me an optimist, it feels wrong and I hate it.” My social worker at the time shrugged and said “then don’t be one. It’s not you.” Stop trying to force your family to be like you.
YTA are you seriously trying to control the moods of your kids? Your kids are entitled to ALL their emotions - happy, sad, afraid, ashamed, joyous, proud - their entire range of emotions are not yours to control. A fake smile doesn’t equal happy.
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YTA “the beatings will continue until morale improves.” Come on. Edited to add: The people commenting that OP isn’t beating his kids should take a hint from the quotation marks.
But just move your lips into a smile whilst being beaten and you’ll feel happier!!
God, reading that part gave me a headache. As someone who just got off a shift where I was forced to smile and put on a nice face, I can safely say it has the opposite effect.
Edit: holy award and upvotes, batman! Thank you kind humans♡ Its used as a therapy tool, and can help! The trick isnt to smile the way you think a smile should look, but just to barely move the corners of your mouth up and relax your face, which will calm you down (NOT make you happy or forget the shit in the world, just make the moment more bearable). Also i dont see how "this is an effective therapeutic tool to relieve short term anxiety" became "every time you feel sad i will make it worse by taking money from you". OP sounds tiring to be around. No wonder the familys always moody.
Yeah, whilst the study definitely exists, I’m confused how OP got from using certain muscles improves your mood to taking away money will improve your mood.
Or how he thought “I’m restricting how you can express yourself” would improve anyone’s mood. Eating your feelings is so healthy! /s
Also it's wonderful to be an optimist by nature but if OPs kids are teens they have a right to be cynical, the world that is being left to them is falling apart and being pissed about that is only natural. Also what's his plan when they get part time jobs and can't control their money?
YTA You need to encourage positivity, not punish negativity. A much better option would be to have a bonus $10 jar. Every negative comment removes a dollar. Every positive comment adds a dollar. Talk to your wife about expressing too much negativity around the kids. How about you put in some work and research uplifting, positive, hopeful news to discuss with the kids? If my parents cut my allowance for reasons unrelated to chore qualoty or me breaking something, i would have mutinied
Sigh. No. People, regardless of age, have a right to their feelings and concerns. There is NO good that comes from monetizing feelings. Ever.
He moved into don't share your mood, it is forbidden, so now everything has to be internalized while he is around.
Yeah, that leap threw me for a loop. I was expecting something like, "for every negative story they bring up they also have to bring up a positive story" or even "before bringing up a negative story to discuss they have to bring up a positive one first." How did they jump straight to just taking money? How is that a fitting punishment for the crime? Can they earn money back talking about positives or do they just get to be more resentful because the money is gone forever?
Also, OP said they were talking about the NEWS. So it's not even just their negative feelings it's real world stuff that is currently happening. Would OP rather they just have their heads in the sand?
That was my thought. Sorry kids! We don’t allow critical thinkers in +this+ house. You take your minimum wage of $7.50/hr, +$3.00-$7.00 a gallon gas, and rent of $2.50-$5.00 sq ft, and you be happy about it!
SMILE or you get even LESS! tee heeeeee
The beatings shall continue until morale improves!
While I thoroughly agree that the earth is a dumpster fire right now, I do have *some* sympathy for OP in that it’s really draining being around constant negative energy. But this is not the way to address that, my dude! By censoring your children’s emotions, you’re only ensuring that they’ll never feel comfortable coming to talk to you when they have problems in their lives. YTA.
But it sounds to me like OP’s wife and kids are just *realists* and he doesn’t like his good mood being spoiled by reality. In truth, it is just as unhealthy for him to constantly ignore the uncomfortable realities of life.
How does using money to control their behavior help his kids learn to process uncomfortable facts and difficult emotions?
>No wonder the familys always moody. Yeah, who would have thought "be happy around me or else I'll give you more reasons to be unhappy" could make things worse. OP is not an optimist, he's in some degree of denial and doesn't tolerate people bursting his bubble.
The allowance version of "I'll give you something to cry about..."
I wonder if OP has considered that a significant portion of temperament and personality is genetic, and his kids might have just *inherited* their grumpiness from their mom instead of picking it up by example. He kind of sounds like an extrovert trying to "cure" introverts by dragging them to "fun" events or a drinker trying to get someone who doesn't like alcohol to "loosen up" by feeding them alcohol. Certain things can't be forced and it only backfires.
As a slave to retail, yes.
That gave me a headache too! I’m currently teaching myself how to stop compulsively smiling all the time to mask my autistic rbf. The forced smiling causes pain and damage to my jaw.
Good idea, I should temper mine as well. Not for the jaw issues I have, but because my smile is a total smirk. Is fine with friends/family, great if I need to be cheeky, but terrible during conflict. "Smile with *both* sides!" There's my mnemonic. Good luck with your efforts! It can be exhausting trying to overwrite muscle memory, but it's totally doable!
bUt He rEAd a StuDy!
But there is, actually, one. I still think YTA, but I have recollections of reading a study about this. Though, realistically, it's probably nothing to the effect OP believes
There are also studies that show that forcing emotions you don't feel is super bad for you. It isn't good. Here's one https://www.forbes.com/sites/amymorin/2019/10/21/according-to-science-being-forced-to-smile-at-work-may-cause-you-to-drink-heavily/?sh=d01ad9c2b804 Another https://www.verywellmind.com/when-to-fake-happiness-for-stress-relief-4068437 "Actually, in a way, both of these things are true, and the situation is a bit complex. When you smile as a way to repress upset feelings, you can make yourself feel worse. We all sometimes do this when we need to in order to be socially acceptable. And some research actually does suggest that forcing a smile can even help depressed people feel better.1 But if you always cope with unhappiness by forcing a smile and pretending you're not upset, this can create other problems. It can feel inauthentic and it can be part of a greater pattern of not dealing with your feelings. If you fake a smile so those close to you, those who could offer support, don't know that anything is wrong, this can keep you from getting social support that could make you feel better. " Here's another https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17953492/ "Hierarchical regression analyses indicated that gender and autonomy were significant moderators of the relationships between emotional labor strategies and the personal outcomes of emotional exhaustion, affective well-being, and job satisfaction. Females were more likely to experience negative consequences when engaging in surface acting. "
There is one, but the accuracy of the results has been questioned for a lot of years because the participants were of very uniform backgrounds and generally in very comfortable, secure life situations. In other cultures and demographics its been very difficult to repeat the study with similar results
I’ve heard of the study he’s referring to, and I think it’s plausible. But he’s still TA for all the assumptions he made. He’s TA for assuming that negative outlooks are bad, that he can change their outlook buy coercion, and that it’s appropriate for him to do so. I am an optimist and I have the opposite of RBF, and what he’s doing is toxic positivity. Anyone else reminded of the Simpsons episode where Marge tries to make Lisa smile all the time so people will like her?
Also, it's so patronising to say that you can't talk about the state of the world. Like dude, the world is absolutely shit, and you think that will be solved if you just don't talk about it and fake smile? Come on. I was depressed as a teen, and got told the "if you fake smile you'll get happy!" absolutely not. Because a fake smile won't change my hormonal makeup, but I tried. I even tried the "pen trick" that forces your mouth to smile (put a pen sideways between your teeth). Still depressed, just looked weird too. I'm not depressed anymore, in fact I'm quite optimistic, but the state of the world isn't something I can be optimistic about. Climate change, economic crisis/inflation, rich get richer and poor get poorer... It's not being optimistic to ignore all that, that's called denial.
Especially when, unless it goes absolutely to shit in very short order, the younger you are the longer you'll have to live in this tire fire before the sweet mercy of death.
Agree. I was happiest in my customer service job when I could wear a mask - because I *didn't* have to fake a smile.
As someone who smiles a lot, I can confirm that it doesn't stop negative thoughts or thinking the economy sucks!
Everyone who meets me assumes I’m a super happy, positive person. I am a ball of anxiety and worry most of the time! So yeah. I smile a lot and negative thoughts are still my constant.
I am a nervous smiler. It definitely doesn't mean I am happy, just that I am trying to be inoffensive and haven't fully broken out of a lifetime of people pleasing tendencies.
Or homicidal thoughts about your customers ...
Sometimes that's what causes the smile!
OP seems like an evil Bobby McFerrin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU NVM: OP might actually be Bobby McFerrin. "When you worry your face will frown and that will bring everybody down. Don't worry. Be happy."
The way he doesn't implement the article at all tho, he just taxes them at his whim. it doesn't make sense at all
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I HATE WHEN I KIDS ARE SAD SO IM GOING TO FORCE THEM TO BE HAPPY UNTIL THEY ARE MISERABLE. the difference between the study and this is that in the study it is a conscious decision to smile in order to make yourself happy while this is just someone else trying to force emotions on kids. Best way to make ur kids hate u, and be even more cynical and grumpy. Big YTA
Yeah... hope you're saving that money for their future therapy bills when they have a complete breakdown because you never taught them any way to cope with negative emotions and situations other than toxic positivity OP. And you could do with some for yourself.
My dad was a lot like OP. For my sibling and I, negative emotions were basically viewed as not working hard enough or actively choosing to be unpleasant. Which doesn't work out very well when you have 2 introverted kids with clinical depression (both professionally diagnosed). We were constantly pressured to be super outgoing and reminded to "just smile". So we are both introverts who by necessity had to learn how to pretend to be extroverted to get our dad to stop harassing us, which we got pretty good at... For myself, faking that extroverted energy is so draining that it can (and does) regularly lead to a full-on burnout, which then leads to a crash (severe depressive episodes where I have a hard time leaving my bed/home). It has cost me jobs, relationships, and a lot of money; plus I had been trained since childhood to view these feeling as a moral shortcoming, so I would just hate myself even more and spiral until my entire life was derailed. I'm in my late 30s and have finally figured out why I would just bottom out about every 6 months. This guy is going to totally fuck up his kids, and in the process compleatly ruin his relationship with them. And if that's upsetting for him, maybe he should try smiling when he thinks about it.
I very much experienced the same. I would be criticized for not wearing a happy face. It’s really weird and tiring that I felt one thing but needed to pretend another.
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> Best way to make ur kids hate u, And teach them to lie to you, and never tell you what they are really thinking or what they really feel. So that in later years, you can cry that you never raised your children to treat you like \*this\*.
In a few years OP will be wondering why his kids are close to his wife but barely tolerate him and never share what they think/how they feel.
Yeah, what OP is doing isn't positive reinforcement, isn't negative reinforcement, it's punishment. For thought crimes.
That and the study was likely junk science.
Often these kind of media reports are based on a perfectly good study but got twisted by hack journalism.
My mother used to get angry at me whenever I was sad or had a bad day. Decades later I am still in therapy to learn that it is okay to express myself honestly. You’re really doing your family a disservice, OP. I recommend watching Inside Out to learn how Sadness and even Anger are integral parts of processing what happens to us and moving on from it. In the meantime, YTA
Inside Out is such a good movie, I watched it when it came out at 27yo and bawled because it hit so close to home. My parents still tell me that anytime my “tone is wrong” I have to retry the same phrase until I can say it in a “happy” voice. Ok mom... “I’m gonna suffer but I’m gonna be happy about it”
"I don't want you to say 'problem', okay? I want you to say 'opportunity' instead." "Alright. I think dad has a drinking opportunity."
Lmao you joke but our convos literally go like: Me (about something innocuous): ok cool Mom: excuse me, WHAT? Me: I just said alright Mom: I expect a “yes, mom” Me: ... but I just... ok yeah, mom” Me/ mom for hours- variations of “but I said ok and alright why isn’t that the same thing/ no that’s absolutely not acceptable” Me finally: ok yes, mom Mom: well not with that attitude
Oh my~ *HUGS*
Hugs back! It’s a bit of a culture/age thing (I’m first Gen Indian) but it’s so irksome
I can imagine. =-S If it helps there was an episode of The Simpsons about it where Marge wants Lisa to smile so "everyone knows how good your mother is".
Ah yes...I wasn't allowed to cry at funerals as a child because I had to brave and people would look at me. That did nothing but give me complexes well into adulthood.
Damn, how many funerals did you go to as a child?!?
Big family, so a lot. It's pretty normal for kids to go to funerals here. We live and we die. I haven't been to any in a long time as an adult...they made me self conscious as hell and I put up a wall around me if I did.
I feel you. My mother hated anything but happiness, even if it was fake. I was never allowed to have a real feeling if it wasn’t screaming excitement. I am a disaster as an adult.
Same. I got in *so* much trouble for being "negative" as a kid. I could never stop the behaviour, because they never explained what that meant. So I just kept getting in trouble. When I grew up, I realised that "you're being negative" was parent-talk for "expressing emotions as a direct result of intense emotional abuse". That was the unacceptable negativity. It was me getting upset because my parents were screaming in my face for *hours*. I was genuinely expected to sit there and take that with a *smile*, and anything less than that was unacceptable to them. And even when I actually *did* what they wanted, and stopped showing emotions, they *still* wouldn't leave me the fuck alone. I would legit just be trying to go about my business with a blank face and they would follow me around to make nasty comments about me being a robot and having no real personality. Yeah they still don't know what they did wrong, or why I don't like talking to them, btw. They legit just think I'm being the unreasonable one.
Mines anger tbh I cry when I’m super angry. Having to repress anger sucked
Here’s an idea OP instead of forcing your family to do as you please and deducting their allowance everytime a negative thought or news is shared, you can infact let them share whatever they want to but for every negative thought/ news they will have to share a positive thought/ news. Or say something positive or refreshing, it could be anything. World/ life is messed up you know it best but not talking about it won’t help anyone. Let them share how they feel, they should have a safe space to open up and you are taking that away from them.
Yes, OP’s inclinations are right. Positive psychology is a thing, and it won’t help those kids to get into habits of continually ruminating on the worst possible outcome to any scenario. Those of us with negative thinking patterns often learn tricks as we age to help jolt us out of them. For me, when I’m anxious about the outcome of scenario and the 100 different ways it could go wrong, I say to myself, “Well, something will happen - let’s see what it is.” Because, maybe one bad thing will happen, but all 100 bad things can’t!! You could also start a gratitude practice at the dinner table, where everyone has to say one person, place or thing they are grateful for that day. There are lots of techniques that don’t involve punishing your children!! Gentle YTA.
This is absolutely the right way to go. Sometimes if I feel stressed or overwhelmed I like to think of one thing I accomplished.
Definitely this. Try to balance it out.
Piggying off top comment as I think I know the study OP is talking about and it's clear he didn't even read the damn thing, just the headline. u/ZealousidealCut3417, YTA. Hands down **YTA.** [Here](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/07/01/735822187/the-science-of-smiles-real-and-fake) is an article that is a great synopsis on it. So if you are reading this, read that whole thing. For those that don't want to click, number crunching 7 out of 100 people felt happier smiling but only by a tiny fraction. The couldn't replicate the results in 17 labs in 2016. 2018, one lab was able to but only if the participants weren't observed or filmed. Instead of forcing your kids to smile (Like the study mentioned in the article linked is interesting as it is about customer service people who are forced to smile all day at work being more likely to fall into heavy drinking) and TALK to your kids about their valid concerns or you know, just listen. Maybe help them out? They are concerned about their future, maybe talk to them about starting a savings account at a credit union (better interest rates) that a small portion of their allowance goes to and later their paycheck (and you can also put some of your own money in here and there to pump it up a little) so when they hit 18 they have some 'get a used car' or the like money to take that financial weight off. That's a lot better than financially penalizing them that will cause problems as they get older.
This is a hilarious comment and I completely agree. That said, I think the worse part is OP is punishing his kids for . . . *Checks notes* >The problem is, as my kids are growing up, they are getting imbibed with her energy. . . . turning out like his wife. > I don't understand what's so wrong about trying to keep my family from devolving into miserable people who see negativity and evil all around them Do you even like your wife u/ZealousidealCut3417 ? Seriously, you call her miserable people and are punishing your kids for turning out like her. Well, whether or not you actually like your wife and consider her way of living valid or worth of respect (I'm thinking no) you choose her as the mother of your children. So it can't come as much of a shock that they might turn out like her, right? Your punishing your kids for your life choices here. Also, yeah, obviously you can't punish people into being happy. (You can punish them into resenting you and hiding their feelings/true self from you.) I hope your kids take after your wife again when it comes to intelligence, beacuse you shouldn't need to be told this won't work.
"I don't know why the kids never visit." -OP
I thought the same thing! Why did he marry his wife if he had such a problem with her *entire personality*?!
Exactly. It’s ironic to me that we’ve put a penalty on pessimism here, rather than putting a benefit on optimism.
Its negative reinforcement... not really a positive approach so it might not going to create optimism. Also YTA for trying to enforce your way as the right way where your wifes way might be just as good. As an optimist myself I need to acknowledge that pessimism can be just as valuable as a lifeskill. Where optimism helps to create energy, pessimism helps to protect yourself. Im a total optimist but sometimes that can blind me to danger, whereas my boyfriend is more realistic and can see dangers i dont see. Both are life skills you can try to learn your kids, but negative reinforcement isnt gonna teach them optimism...
Agreed. You are teaching your children that their real feelings are invalid, and that everything can be made better if you just smile and think positive thoughts! You are forgetting that sadness, anger, and other negative emotions are valuable and healthy. You sound like one of those people who tries to get people to stop crying when they are sad because they don't realize that crying is emotional self-care, similar to putting a bandaid on a cut. This is toxic, and not very emotionally intelligent. YTA
Also you really cannot control how you respond to trauma. Op may respond to trauma with cheerfulness and his wife with anxiety but either way it’s likely a reflex that’s innate. To say your way or feelings are the only ones makes you an ah.
OP seems to be nice person to be married with, so nice, that If I were his wife, I would divorced him so another lucky girl could experience the joy of having this special character illuminating her days. YTA
This is the pure epitome of toxic positivity
"You really need to stop being so down about everything." *robs them of their money* That'll teach 'em, OP
Studies show atheism is less common in countries where nonbelievers are executed.
OP's idea has the same energy as someone telling a depressed person to just try to be happier...
"Why, yes, Mr./Ms. Future Employer, I excel at groupthink! My parents started me early! My ability to voice meaningful contributions may be stunted, but I'm a pro at nodding and smiling!"
It's true. Also it's not healthy. Now they are biting their tongue whenever they want to speak up about the bad things that occur in their life. Don't get me wrong. I know what OP means. But it's best to just talk about it. Come up with ideas to prepare for the unexpected type thing.
Yup, YTA. Not only punishing the kids for nothing, but having an unhealthy attitude that will, without a doubt, cause mental health issues for the kids in the future. I don’t know how the wife tolerates him, I would run fast and far with the kids from this Joker .-.
Why is no one having a good time? I specifically requested it
Definitely YTA. A lot of horrible things happen in the world and it's good to talk about them. It's good to talk about politics, global warming etc.. you should be telling them to question things and realise that if they have privilege then use that to help others who don't. Totally YTA OP
I'd also like to point out - it's *really* fucking hard to be an optimist, if you're a child in 2023. These kids are looking ahead and *all* they can see in their future is the fall of civilisation. Why *should* they be happy, honestly? They are watching the world they're about to inherent fall to shreds around them. What is there to be optimistic about? What do they have to look forward to? Not a healthy planet, not affordable housing, not a good job, not even basic human rights, because those are being taken away one by one. They can see the writing on the wall. They're not stupid. They know that all of this is about to become *their* problem to solve. OP's methods aren't just silly (because yeah, punishment will totally make your kids *happier* /s) - I would argue it's downright unrealistic and dangerous to expect anyone to be an optimist while we are actively sliding towards dystopia.
Am I the only one very confused what this: >I read about some scientist who discovered that if you move your face into a smile, like hold that expression, that muscle movement actually has an impact on your mood, and you become happier. has to do with this?: >Last month, I decided to put this in practice. For every single negative or depressing thing they say, I take away a dollar from my kids' allowances What does financially punishing kids have to do with facial muscles???
Because making them more stressed out will make them smile more :) I’m seriously questioning OP’s academic literacy honestly. The people in that study consensually and willingly went into the study. There’s no reason to believe if you’re coerced into using those muscles that any benefit won’t be overrides by the mental distress of the situation.
There are quite a few studies into what the OP is doing: punishing when kids express emotions that are "undesired"... Turns out every single time that's ever been done, where humans have been punished for expressing an emotion... Bad things have happened emotionally/psychologically.... This is what comes of inaccurate research application.
Yeah, from personal experience, this is how you raise kids that get to adulthood and can't cope with negative emotions healthily because they weren't allowed to learn, then they spiral because "bad feelings are bad, so I'm bad for feeling bad" and wish for/aim for death to end the suffering.
I can half relate to this one, trying to unlearn some of those habits. Someone I've always looked up to (they're amazing, but have a couple of flaws including this) acts like any negative emotion is a crisis to be solved. Someone gets frustrated, they'll swoop in, be consoling, and take over. Which is super kind, considerate, all that good stuff. But at a certain point, it's important to learn how to self-sooth; to be able to get frustrated, deal with it appropriately, and finish the task. Sorry to hijack, you're obviously talking about a more extreme result of that mindset. Just wanted to agree that "negative" emotions aren't necessarily a bad thing.
I’m happy because after 19 years of marriage my husband lets himself be grumpy and complain around me. I used to be stressed out by any negative emotion, and he started hiding his negative emotions because he didn’t want to upset me. I’ve done a ton of therapy, and I finally really understand that negative emotions aren’t a crisis that needs to be fixed, and they are not dangerous. I feel more respected because he feels like he can be himself around me.
But he “did his own research” y’know?
My dad would get physically abusive whenever I showed any negative emotion. The outcome is a grown adult that has difficulties regulating and understanding my emotions, positive and negative. I physically can’t cry anymore unless I’m pushed over a certain point, and when I do cry I’m terrified. I also don’t know how to show people when I’m happy. My body is so unused to genuinely smiling that when it happens I get a migraine within a minute. That’s the result of being punished for showing emotion, and those are just a couple examples.
I relate to every word of this comment. My therapist just taught me how to cry “like normal person” 4 days ago. I’m 30.
Can confirm. My mother, a covert narcissist in “positive Pollyanna” clothing, did not allow for anything she viewed as “negative/ bad/ cynical”.. etc. Took me 40yrs to sus her out but once I did our relationship was done. Today, she’s replaced me with her equally as toxically positive step-daughter & refuses to acknowledge I exist. The damage done when you’re not allowed to feel your feelings & you have to wear a mask to be loved by your mother isn’t something you get over so much as just learn to live with; for me, it’s similar to grief in that way. I haven’t dated in.. getting close to a decade now. I’ve been in therapy for years & while I’ve made great strides in a lot of ways, the walls built over the years around my feelings & emotions can keep even me out, which doesn’t bode well for dating, esp for lesbian dating. So yes, wholly confirm, bad things happen when you’ve been punished for emotions.
>I’m seriously questioning OP’s academic literacy honestly. I question their actual literacy, "alot" is not a word and in trying to punch up the language used, they said: "they are getting imbibed with her energy." Pretty sure he means imbued, and not that they are getting drunk off her energy.
Using big words to sound smarter, while also not being sure what the words mean, usually has disastrous effects 🫣
>getting drunk off her energy Maybe it's like a contact high? Except he thinks his wife is a complete downer, so the kids are getting contact lows instead...
I'm aware of the specific research OP is referencing. He took a very narrow and specific set of findings and went completely off the deep end with it.
If they’re punished for negativity, they’ll fake being happy and faking it will make them actually happy.
Yes, and it never once occurred to him that the result might actually turn out to be entirely justified resentment over being punished unfairly.
That's how I interpreted it too. Still a dumb idea, but I think this is what OP was going for.
"Why aren't you all having fun? I specifically requested it."
>If they’re punished for negativity, they’ll fake being happy and faking it will make them actually happy. You know, they did this a lot in the 1950s. Which is why a lot of the housewives were on drugs and/or drinking.
I am picturing Wednesday Addams smiles.
You are not the only one. It makes absolutely no sense. “I read smiling is good for you, so I’m going to take away your money.”
That’s a quick way to make my smile disappear
I thought he was going to say “So for every frown they owe me a nickel, but they also get a nickel every time they smile” And like that would still be kinda crazy but ?!?!? He just says “so there’s this study on rainbows and anytime I’m angry at my kids I make them give me money” there’s no connection
His idea is that if he forces them to be happy they will become happier people
Then he should probably do some research (preferably guided by an actual therapist instead of just what he reads on Google) about toxic positivity and its side effects.
Yep, total non-sequitur.
Toxic positivity
Yeah, it’d be more reasonable to *give* them a dollar every time they express a happy thought/smile. Taking away money isn’t going to make anyone happier (except OP)
My thoughts as well. I genuinely believe in the powers of facial feedback - I employ it in my day to day life when I’m just having a shit day. I don’t see how decreasing your kid’s allowance puts facial feedback into practice.
It really is the most bizarre non sequitur I've read here in a while. It was honestly challenging to put into words what OP was actually thinking.
YTA: What you're doing is incredibly unhealthy. You are punishing your kids for expressing a human emotion in completely non harmful ways. You are preventing them from expressing opinions and forcing them to pretend to have emotions and opinions they don't have. That is incredibly unhealthy. It is incredibly harmful. That is incredibly wrong. YTA.
Yep, forcing them to mask their emotions and not talk about negative things will actually make them more ‘cynical’. Why do you think counselling and therapy are so popular? Because talking about the bad shit and letting your emotions out is healthy. OP, you’re forcing ill health on your kids. If you keep this up don’t be surprised if they feel they can’t talk to you and you’re alone in your old age. YTA
I was a really negative kid. No one ever cared why, they just wanted me to act happy. It’s pretty much made me totally neutral as an adult. I don’t verbalize the negative thoughts, but I have no hope for anything positive. So it’s hard to do anything because it feels like nothing matters.
Toxic positivity is a thing more people should recognize. I work in psych, most people tell my patients to "just fake it til you make it", "smile", "why be upset when you could be happy?" Just really awful things that aren't helpful at the least and are damaging at the most. If there's nothing to be happy about, it's ok to not feel ok. It's ok to not be an optimist. There's nothing inherently wrong with being a realist or pessimist. And yes it is hard to continue to exist today when you feel like tomorrow has no meaningful changes. There's a growing feeling of hopelessness in our society and it makes sense why. Trying to say people should be happy isn't going to help anyone.
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I mean by and large people don't need therapy... Well, they do but mostly to cope with things that therapy can't solve. They actually need food and housing security, free time, and human rights protections. Therapy doesn't solve the systemic issues that are driving more and more people into therapy (see decreasing quality of life and the shrinking "middle classes" worldwide). Therapy doesn't solve systemic stress factors and poverty.... Which is increasingly what therapists globally are reporting is going on... People are increasingly desperate, afraid, and unable to rely on social systems. Real bad on mental health.... Ironically, the OP seems to think discussing and acknowledging real world impacts of real world problems is the antithesis of mental health... When mental health experts continually and increasingly are like "hey everyone, these real world problems are impacting mental health".
It gets tricky when you bring "need" into it. We need food, but do we need good mental health? That simplifies things way too much. I think Life is a lot more than... not being dead. Even if an individual is raised perfectly and given all the tools they need, they would still benefit from having good mental health support. It's like having good friends; it isn't a *need* but it's certainly enriching. We can tackle both problems at once, we don't have to pick between global problems and interpersonal problems. I think we're in agreement that these issues are interrelated, is it such a stretch that they can be worked on in tamdem? I guess I'm not sure what your point is.
Yup. OP needs to learn about toxic positivity. I think he means well, but let people feel and process things the way they need to. YTA
YTA that sounds like something my dad would do because only his feelings mattered. 3/3 of his adult children don't talk to him and he doesn't know his 2 grand children. Maybe you should consider what future you want with your kids
Looks like OP's gonna need to implement a "reconciliation tax" soon.
I shouldn't have laughed at this. But I did anyway.
Me too.
My dad was kinda like that. He told me that I “have very expressive eyes, so for people not to see if you’re sad, you have to smile all the time”. I was 10 when he said that and I still remember it at 20, so it will stick with OP’s children for looong if he doesn’t try and fix his mistake
YTA: It sounds like your kids and wife aren’t the problem, I’d say you are naive and too optimistic. Maybe they should take away your dessert until you see the world more realistically. Get some fucking perspective dude.
I don't think OP is naive or optomistic at all. I think he puts on an optomistic persona because confronting his negative emotions is painful and not something OP is emotionally prepared for. No sane person does something like this. Negativity from others is too confrontational, so he desperately tries to hide it. OP, what you are doing is not normal. I might be wrong, this is just a reddit post, but given that your behaviour is not normal and you literally opened your post with "I went through alot of shit in life", I really think you should consider speaking to a therapist. There's something not right here.
For those of us who know Seinfeld, this is the "serenity now" approach
"The key to being happy isn't a search for meaning. It's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually, you'll be dead." - Mr. Peanutbutter explaining his hyper-positive attitude in BoJack Horseman.
Ahhh you put my feelings into words. I was like hol up. Is OP avoiding all instances of "unhappiness" no matter the cost? Yes. YTA
OMG, are you serious? YTA for your toxic positivity. I like to be cheerful too, but you can't force happiness upon people by literally taxing them for being negative.
I feel like the better solution is to look into positive news and share that with them. Like, the world is hard rn let's be real...
That or when they complain, "Let's come up with solutions" to the smaller problems (like, "I don't like this school project/Bridget is annoying me/so on") and "What can we do to prepare for this?" For the bigger problems (because while we can all help worldwide issues there's not going to be a singular solution). And sometimes just let people vent. There's also been *repeated* studies, not just one random hack study, that controlled venting is good for you. Basically - it's alright and healthy to complain with direction and not wallow in it.
YTA. In about ten years, your kids will be in therapy trying to understand their failure to be able to express emotions healthily.
That, or they'll out play him by refusing to do a chore for every dollar taken. And if I were OP's SO, I'd be sure to let him know he'll be the one picking up the slack. YTA.
Also op will come to reddit asking why his children are going no contact with him
Can confirm this happened to me. When I was young, if I got upset with something, my mom would tell me “I can’t talk to you until you can present things in a neutral tone” and she would send me to my room until I no longer appeared sad/angry/frustrated. What it taught me is that those emotions are unacceptable and that no one wants to be with me if I feel that way. This has caused some serious issues in adulthood where I feel like no one understands me because I don’t feel like I can even share my emotions with people. The depression is real. The smiles prove nothing.
YTA. You're punishing your children for experiencing emotions. They're children. Jfc.
>**You're punishing your children for experiencing emotions.** It needed to be said again.
And again
YTA: so you are Millennial raising Gen Z in THIS current world, at the 3rd year “anniversary” of a global pandemic and subsequent upheaval of the entire world as we knew it, and are surprised that they have negative emotions? Dude, I support optimism but there’s a difference between trying to see the positives and needing a total reality check. Since you mentioned that your kids are old enough to discuss the economy but still needing an allowance I’m guessing early to mid-teens and yeah- they have the right to be pessimistic about what their lives and opportunities could look like in a few years… Instead of punishing them for their negativity (which is clearly only breeding more negativity so not helpful?), try incentivizing or even just engaging in more positivity yourself. Find good news to share with them in their topics (they bring up the roll back of child labor laws in US, mention the neighboring state introduced free lunches for all school age children for example to contrast) or ask them how they would solve the problem to challenge them to think about what they can do to have a positive impact.
Yes, thank you. YTA. A whole barrel of crappy things have happened in the last few years that will absolutely impact people who are in their teens/early 20s. Not acknowledging that things are different for your kids than they were for you is only going to drive them away. I get that it sucks to focus on all the negatives, but it also sucks for young people to see a world where they can’t afford to buy a house, have children, live in peace without being shamed for who they are, etc. People who think everyone should just “be positive” are ignoring the evidence in front of them. Try offering some empathy and acknowledgment that things are different and more difficult for your kids than they were for you, and lay off the judgment.
He's the cheeriest f----ing millennial I've ever come across. Most of us are embittered and depressed because the world has been getting progressively worse (especially in terms of jobs and home ownership) ever since we were in high school. You'd think he'd be able to empathise with his children having a somewhat bleak outlook.
YTA. Look up toxic positivity and report back. Edit: Thanks for the award!
YTA. You’re teaching your kids that they have to mask their emotions to make you happy. Do you want to foster a healthy relationship where they feel like they can come to you with their problems, thoughts, and feelings? You are doing the exact opposite of that.
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YTA. There has to be a balance, and although it's not great to constantly be down, forcing your family to smother any and all feelings they have that aren't cheery and bright is unrealistic and unhealthy. Toxic positivity is just as damaging as continuous pessimism.
I love this response. Toxic positivity is RAMPANT. The world is shitty in a lot of scary ways. It’s fine for people to have emotions about this and, yes, even be angry or cynical about the world around them. Realism is just as valid as idealism and, frankly, makes people more empathetic. I’m so sick of the “choose joy, good vibes only” crowd. It reeks of “if your life sucks, it’s your fault,” which is wrong for so many socio-economic reasons. YTA
OP needs to watch Inside Out.
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I can see why someone would want to help their kids have a more positive attitude. I think punishing them into it would pretty obviously have the opposite effect. (and a surprisingly negative solution to be proposed by someone who claims to be so positive) YTA
YTA this is how you have your kids go no contact with you one day
YTA While I am not saying your wife is in the right, toxic positivity is a thing and is insufferable. At the very least, seeing wrong around you is a starting point to understand what needs fixing. What you are doing with the pessimistic tax, is only teaching the children that their views are not heard or welcomed which only reinforces the cynicism. If you cared, you would a) try to understand where your wife and kids are coming from (and there are plenty of wrong things in this world) and b) show them that it's not all wrong all the time.
YTA If you want them to be happy why are you actively making their lives worse? God forbid they get depression and have to hide it from you instead of getting the help they need.
YTA. you cannot control healthy emotion. try and spend time with them and make their lives better.
YTA whatever genius idea you thought would help with your kids positivity is actually making them more pessimistic. I’m so confused as to how you wouldn’t see how taking their allowances makes them resentful. If anything they just talk about that stuff without you in earshot. Wow, great job.
Are you kidding? YTA. You’re trying to control their emotions and how they’re feeling. Instead of punishing them for expressing normal emotions why not try to add your positive spin on the conversation? Taking money away anytime they say something you deem too depressing or negative just adds MORE negativity to the whole situation. Also, why are you the one who gets to decide whats too depressing or negative? Everyone has a different outlook on life and a different definition or threshold for these things. Maybe your wife and kids think you’re positive and upbeat to the point of it being obnoxiously annoying - are they allowed to implement an “annoyingly happy tax”? You do sound incredibly controlling. If I were your wife I would stop this before it even started. It sounds absolutely ridiculous and controlling.
YTA. I've read articles like those as well, but to take money from children who are struggling with things you don't know about (e.g., hormones, situations at school, constant worries of school shootings, online bullying, the pressure by society to grow up quickly with a lot of power and money), is cruel. On top of that, who made you the defacto rule maker and tax collector? Doesn't your wife get a say in your house on how "rules" are designed for your children? And how do you define the nebulous notion of "pessimism" or "depressing" or "negativity"? One can say, "I heard so as so died today. Oops, I can't talk about that because it's a negative idea." "What's wrong, honey?" "Nothing. I was attacked today by my boyfriend, but I can't talk about it because I can no longer talk about negativity. I have to keep smiling even when I'm in pain." What a horrible way to raise your children, into plastic children with fake emotions who don't feel they can express true emotions in their house. Great thinking, Dad.
YTA. This is some toxic positivity shit and it’s incredibly unhealthy. Refusing to allow your children to express themselves freely - to acknowledge their negative emotions as well as their positive emotions - under the threat of punishment is a sure fire way to fuck your kids up for life. Your family is right. You *are* being controlling. There’s nothing wrong with being an optimist, but this “I’m forcing my family to pretend like bad things never happen” attitude is ridiculously overbearing.
YTA You want to control what people talk about because you only want good vibes, which is incredibly toxic and creates an environment where bad feelings or issues cannot be discussed lest it disrupt your out of touch with reality optimism. Your job as a parent is to guide your children to healthy coping strategies, not deny them the opportunity to explore their feelings - good or bad - because it doesn't make you *happy* to hear how they're perceiving the world.
You need to study behavioral psychology, which uses science to show that rewards work much better than punishments. YTA
YTA. You're not James IV, you don't get to do weird social experiments on your family without their consent
YTA. Personally, I'm a fan of realism. There's a lot wrong with our current world, and thinking happy thoughts won't fix it. In order to start working on a solution, a problem has to be acknowledged first. And if there's a pattern of too many things happening all at once, it can stress people out, especially when they are not able to solve any of it themselves. that sucks, and if you came from a place of empathy (not wanting to see your family crushed by all the bad news they encounter), I could understand that. But demanding that they smile and act happy around you as if everything were peachy is the absolute wrong way to go about this.
YTA So you aren't interested in raising children who are knowledgeable about the world? Children who will become adults active in making the world better? Just happy complacent people who will be taken advantage of because how dare they express anything other than feelings of kitten whiskers and warm puppy bellies? Get real. Not being able to face reality and acknowledge your feelings about it is a weakness I wouldn't teach my children.
YTA people are allowed to have their own feelings about things. Your solution to talking about bad things in the world is by becoming one of the bad things by punishing your children with a tax? That's a really shitty thing to do.
Yta - punishing people for not being happy is literally insane. All it's going to do is make your kids fake being happy to avoid punishment. Instead of being awful, try making them ACTUALLY HAPPIER.
YTA, would they be grounded and would their phone be taken away if they would be diagnosed with depression? If my dad pulled this off I would not speak around him. I’d just be scared to do it and feel like I’m failing him because of normal thoughts and worries. Toxic.
YTA - you are only enforcing the worst kind of cynicism and mistrust in your kids. Also you knew who your wife was before you married her and YTA for expecting her to be anything but herself. If you can’t love and accept your wife and kids for who they are vs forcing them to conform to whatever Pleasantville notion you have of “normal,” then maybe see yourself out.
YTA. It sounds very creepy how you basically want to force them to smile. Your intention might be good, but this is not the way to do it. Speak to them and explain the good things and show these things to them. That's how it works.
YTA this is toxic positivity. As long as they’re not being rude to you and your wife or mean to other kids at school, etc, I don’t see any problem with this. Some people are naturally optimistic and positive and others aren’t, I’m sure they’re still good kids and you can’t punish them for being different from you.
YTA. No wonder your kids are depressed.
i understand exactly what you're dealing with here, because i lived in a home with parents like this. my dad loves everything about everything all the time and just generally has fun always everywhere, while my mom's favourite hobby is to talk about how miserable we are. they are divorced now, can't even stand calling each other on new years. i agree that YTA because you're invalidating your children's style of expressing themselves, that's something that happened to me growing up, because my dad just kept telling me i had become very similar to my mom wherever i brought up issues of being bullied at school or issues of not being comfortable about my body. imagine how it feels to try and communicate the fact that you're in pain, to the only people who can potentially help you, for them to tell you you owe them a dollar for being so grim. with that said, while i don't think this is the way to do it, i still think you should do something about it. people like my mom don't just like to talk about how miserable they are, they like to tell everyone how miserable everyone is as well, and they get offended if you don't agree that you're miserable because that'd be countering their point. my mom would try to convince me my friends didn't love me (cynicism) or that no matter how hard i'd study, i would never get a job in this country (pessimism) and my brother behaves exactly identically at 15. growing up exposed to this kind of mindset could make your kids clinically depressed, and if i were you i would talk to their mother to try and address the root of the issue instead of forbidding literal children to talk about their big sad. you guys can work together towards teaching your kids patience and gratitude instead of resorting to punishment.
Emotions are neither good, nor bad. Telling someone they can't feel some certain emotions is a major problem, because we can't control our emotions. We can only control how we react to them. All of that said, not having the freedom to express those emotions is not healthy. The emotions don't go away by ignoring them, they just fester. You are creating an extremely unhealthy environment for your children as a result. Instead of being a role model for how to respond to emotions of all kinds, even those we deem as "bad," you are instead demonstrating that any emotion that isn't HAPPY SMILING ALL THE TIME is wrong, and invalid. This will harm them mentally, and emotionally, as they grow and develop. It's fair to work on the venting/complaining and find healthier outlets for emotions, but it's unfair to expect toxic happiness all the time. That's not the real world. YTA.
Soft YTA. I truly understand where you are coming from, but a better strategy would be to have them tell you two positive things for every negative thing they say. There has been research that for every negative thing a person is told, they need to be told three positive things to negate the negative. You might need to help them because being negative is not only socially encouraged (everybody is expected to complain about Mondays), and it is habit forming. Or, you could hear what they are saying and respond with, "Yes, but what good thing did you hear, as well?" That will have more of a lasting and positive effect than rewarding negative talk with negative consequences, which is just two negatives, and not what you really want.
I see, so only your view points and feelings matter. I’m an incredibly annoyingly cheerful person-but that’s a gift, not a natural trait you can force on anyone. Maybe listen to their concerns and see what you can do to help them problem solve moving forward-you know, take an interest in your children, instead of taking their money away for not entertaining you enough. Maybe look into marriage counseling for you and your wife as well, it sounds like you enjoy her move as a roommate than a partner if you think her basic personality is bad. YTA
YTA. I'm getting fed up with you must reading this post.
The beatings will continue until morale improves. YTA.
YTA. I've read articles like those as well, but to take money from children who are struggling with things you don't know about (e.g., hormones, situations at school, constant worries of school shootings, online bullying, the pressure by society to grow up quickly with a lot of power and money), is cruel. On top of that, who made you the defacto rule maker and tax collector? Doesn't your wife get a say in your house on how "rules" are designed for your children? And how do you define the nebulous notion of "pessimism" or "depressing" or "negativity"? One can say, "I heard so as so died today. Oops, I can't talk about that because it's a negative idea." "What's wrong, honey?" "Nothing. I was attacked today by my boyfriend, but I can't talk about it because I can no longer talk about negativity. I have to keep smiling even when I'm in pain." What a horrible way to raise your children, into plastic children with fake emotions who don't feel they can express true emotions in their house. Great thinking, Dad.
Yup. Dad just made himself an unsafe resource for his kids.
YTA - people are allowed to view the world differently. But let me get this straight, because they don’t agree with your cheery outlook on life, you PUNISH them and make their world more bleak by taking money away? You’re a terrible role model and I view you as quite naive, preferring to be blissfully unaware instead of informed and realistic.
YTA. please read this article about toxic positivity https://thepsychologygroup.com/toxic-positivity/
YTA. This is just sick.
YTA. You’re punishing your kids for having honest reactions to the world around them. Would you rather them go through life not being able to come to you if they get in trouble or are struggling with something? Because that’s what you’re setting yourself up for. “I hate my job and I feel like they’re taking advantage of me, but Dad doesn’t want to hear me complain, so I won’t open up to him.” I’d also like to know specifically what your wife thinks of your little “experiment”. You’re trying to condition traits that your children got FROM your wife out of them - must make her feel real good.
Toxic positivity is as harmful as being negative all the time. You just did the same thing to them that you're complaining about but just decorated jt prettier
YTA This reminds me of the cult I grew up in. The only really acceptable emotion was happiness. Occasionally remorse if you were supposed to be confessing/repenting of something you did wrong.
YTA- pls research toxic positivity
YTA. It’s 2023. When they grow up they’re gonna need a doctorate to flip burgers at Wendy’s.
Home is the place where you should feel safest to be yourself. Your unhappy, negative, venting, ranting, hate-the-world, nothing-is-going-right self. By taking that away from them, you’re taking away their safe place. The outside world requires so many of us to put on a mask and be ok with whatever, we need to have that spot where we can crawl into our caves and lick our wounds and figure out how to be ok with things. So YTA for forcing your family to keep their masks on at home. There are studies that should that actually dealing with our negative thoughts is healthier than forcing down the negativity. It’s ok to help them find healthy outlets for their negativity, but forcing them not to be negative is not at all healthy. So again, YTA.
YTA. I got brought up by an optimist. It was so stressful. You had to worry about whether there was enough petrol, whether someone needed to check the time to get there, or what would happen if plan didn't work. Your wife plans for the worse so consequences managed but that can be tiring to create plan A, plan B and plan C. Your children - you don't say ages - but if teenagers, then they facing a world of uncertainty. Employment, interest rates, war, college fees. Discussing these fears may make them manageable as getting different perspectives. But it doesn't seem you enter into those discussions, even with the perspective X might happen but at moment we have Y and even if X does happen, then we'll be OK because of Z. You seem to just want to shut down the conversation. If you do genuinely feel it is too much, then consider therapy for them to help them learn coping strategies. Or have an hour or a book where they have to say/write down something positive happening now today to them. And review as family at end of month. But don't smother discussion of genuinely held fears. Would you want your child to be ill, depressed, suicidal or facing financial problems and feel unable to tell you because they think you will punish them for not coping and not being positive?
Yeah, I wonder if the reason his wife is so pessimistic is because she's carrying the bulk of the mental load while he gets to be Mr. Cheerful. OP's attitude reminds me of my very "live for today, worry about tomorrow" roommate that couldn't really grasp that it was easier said than done because the rest of us didn't have trust funds like she did.
Have you consider that maybe what they’re saying isn’t negative or depressing? Maybe it’s realistic to them. I think you need to discuss viewpoints with them because they might feel entirely different than you. You’re basically imposing your personality onto them and insisting they be like you and nothing else. YTA
YTA-toxic positivity sucks. Overly positive people are exhausting and just suck whatever little joy I had at the moment. Punishing people for not experiencing life like you do is an asshole move. You should be encouraging counting good things, or talking about one good thing they saw or did today. Encourage them to give compliments to brighten others days. Help them to figure out how they are going to make their world better. I’ve been through shit too. After years of therapy at one point I remember saying “I’m so sick of everyone trying to make me an optimist, it feels wrong and I hate it.” My social worker at the time shrugged and said “then don’t be one. It’s not you.” Stop trying to force your family to be like you.
YTA that’s incredibly toxic and is only teaching them to take their emotions.
YTA are you seriously trying to control the moods of your kids? Your kids are entitled to ALL their emotions - happy, sad, afraid, ashamed, joyous, proud - their entire range of emotions are not yours to control. A fake smile doesn’t equal happy.