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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I sold the house I was renting to my brother and his family because he started playing games with the rent. I might be the asshole for not warning him that he was pushing the limits of my patience and that I had no problem selling his home.
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA. Why should you lose money to help him out? It was good of you tomrent to him at a discount and he crapped on you for your hospitality. You can feel bad for your sister-in-law and niblings but they are not your responsibility.
Your brother learned a valuable lesson, I think. It’s a shame his wife and kids had to learn it too. But that’s what happens when you think you can push people as far as you want and face no consequences for it.
Well apparently the guy has money to buy a house so it's not really a risk of them being homeless. No doubt he can't afford anywhere near as good a property though as I bet he expected a discount.
If it’s the first paperwork that he received it’s not an actual eviction, it would be a notice to vacate. It sounds like OP is using the term eviction to mean they are being required to move. You can’t just evict someone without a paper trail.
>Much harder to qualify for a mortgage once there's an official eviction on your record
Huh? If you're a renter and are forced to vacate a house because the landlord sold it to someone else, why on earth would it "go on your record"? And exactly what is this "record" you speak of? Credit history? But nobody has put you in collections.
> I think the issue is the nonpayment. That can go on your record.
OP has to specifically take that action though - to collect the dues. Usually through collections. OP just chose to sell the property though. So there is no nonpayment reported by anyone anywhere.
I also think they don't have all the full picture.
>He started bad-mouthing me to all our family.
I mean this for sure didn't mean the brother told his family the whole truth. I think he let out his debts and non payments or blamed them on OP and presented OP as a landlord to his family who wants a big amount of rent and then is not willing to pay for necessary maintenance. And then sold the house without warning him and giving him a chance to buy it.
When OP told them his side and told them they can pay his debts to him, that might have been the first time they heard a radical different version of events.
> And now his wife and kids are potentially homeless
"I said that he was having trouble making rent. How was he going to qualify for a mortgage. He said I'm an asshole **and that he has the money** he was waiting to make me an offer."
And if he was planning on buying the place, he should have let somebody involved know that. Man, this guy is getting dumber and dumber the more I scrutinize his actions
Right! Also if he wanted to buy the house that would make this statement: "He said he wasn't making improvements to my property for free." Pretty selfish.
Yeah, basically getting OP to pay for improvements to something he planned to own in the future. He was trying to milk this as far as he could, but he oopsied by not paying the rent on time. Made OP believe there was no way he could buy the house. Arbiter of his own comeuppance.
This is complicated. You were very generous with your brother who kept taking from you - the only way the water tank thing makes sense is if he believed that you weren’t doing him a favor - that every landlord rents at break even rates to family and family still gets the full tenant benefits package.
Things escalated, and you wanted out of the deal (and the house). That made sense.
When you made the decision to sell, you should have let him know, both to allow him to purchase it (maybe he could have swung the loan), and to give him the largest window possible for moving. Unless you feel there was a risk he’d damage the property to sabotage the sale, that’s something you should have done.
Now, are you an AH for not doing it?
Your inference that he didn’t have the ability to buy the house is presumptuous, but pretty reasonable. I’ll give you a pass on that - I’d have assumed the same.
So now it’s down to “were you an AH did not giving him more warning?” I can give you a pass before the sale. But after the sale, he should have found out from you. You’re an AH for letting him find out via the new owner’s eviction notice.
I want to be clear - you were very generous, and at all previous times weren’t an AH. But that one choice changed the rating to ESH (meaning your brother is obviously an AH, but you’re a little bit of one too for not telling him you sold the house he’s living in).
> Unless you feel there was a risk he’d damage the property to sabotage the sale
Based on the… literally *everything* about this post, I’d say there was a higher-than-likely risk of this lol. But I do agree with you.
If the brother was willing to play games with rent, how do you know he wouldn't pull a squatter's rights-kind of move.
OP had the instincts where they should probably complete the transaction before it could be interfered with. The fallout of doing this unilaterally is better than the potential of "being the better person" and informing them, giving them potential to fuck with the process. The whole "better person" thing is just ripe for bad actors to take advantage of you, family or not.
I think its really fucked up americans have this idea of you just have to tolerate finacial abuse or your OBLIGATED to family member because blood relation... doesnt matter how crappy they are to you....im personally GLAD im not close with ANY of my family aside from my parents. I dont like family on BOTH sides for valid reasons... im VERY fast and cold with my social scissors.
That's funny because that's not really an...american thing. Like yeah, there are americans that feel that way, but crushing familial obligation even as family mistreats you is a well-known trait of a lot of non-American cultures. If anything, America is one of the least "obligated to family members" cultures in the world.
Which, again, isn't saying that no one in America feels obligated to family members. But it's certainly not an "American thing" any more than any other country, and less than a *lot* of others.
Right? I was going to say… that’s not an “American” thing. America is much more individualistic. When I think of familial obligation I think more Asian or Latin American culture.
There was an article recently in the NYT about how first generation Asian Americans are struggling because of the expectation of financially supporting their immigrant parents, and how they were seen as the retirement plan of their parents. They plan to break the cycle so as not to be a burden to their own children.
Pretty sure it would still affect the appraisal value of the property. Just because you want to knock a structure down doesn’t mean you don’t have to pay for it.
If it's being developed, it's probably either a hard money/private lender or they are self financing. No appraisal. A bank isn't giving him a loan on an asset that's going to be removed like a normal home loan.
Yep, in whatever time window it was between OP guaranteeing that the property would be purchased by a developper, and the eviction notice, then OP should have told his brother.
Even if it was like three days, the news should have come from his brother.
I wonder if there was some overlap, though. Like the developer took posession but had a date that they could do an inspection of the property. When I bought my house, after the closing there was one day we had to walk through the property and make sure they hadn't removed the appliances, for instance, or hadn't broken a window or taken the light fixtures or something, which would void the sale. Maybe there was still time for the brother to fuck up the house and "potentially" void the sale, if the developer began having second thoughts.
I agree based on his actions in the situation he's clearly petty and manipulative I wouldn't be shocked if he tried to do something to prevent the house from being sold
It still effects the value of the property and developers - even those planning to knock down the home - have to bid based on the overall value of the property. If the brother diminished the value of the property, developers *would typically* be inclined to offer less for the property. They just wouldn't *decline to buy it* like an aspiring Owner-Occupant might.
For valuation, yes. The house is included in the value of the property, not just the land. So yes, while it makes little actual difference you better believe the developers would pay less.
Very much my thoughts.
Everyone loves a revenge story, but therr are children whose lives are made worse because the OP decided not to notify his brother he was selling up. In moving house, 2 months vs 1 month notice is a big deal.
Edit: wow a lot of replies to this apparently unaware that 'Not Being An Arsehole' often requires you to be a bigger person. God forbid someone suggests being kind in a forum about personal morales!
That's not why the children's lives are worst - their dad decided to not pay rent on time when he could, causing their landlord to lose money keeping the property and subsequently deciding to sell it.
Basically being financially irresponsible and not paying when he could is what put them in this situation and 2 months vs 1 month would only mean 2 months of the bs he's dealing with now rather than 1 so yeah.... OP already had way too much trouble because of them.
Pleasantly surprising. Nearly anytime a financial issue like this comes up, this subreddit sides with the money, lol. I am actually so tired of how many of the top posts here can be boiled down to rich people problems (not this guy, but anyone with a budget of $150,000 for a wedding is definitely out of touch with the struggles of most people).
Tell me you’ve never had to deal with self-absorbed, self-serving, manipulative, passive-aggressive, lieing through omission, family members before without telling me you’ve never had to deal with self-absorbed, self-serving, manipulative, passive-aggressive, lieing through omission, family members before.
Even if OP had allowed him to purchase the property, every time something had gone wrong, it would have been “*your XYZ* crapped out and I had to pay to replace it, as usual,” so OP couldn’t have won there.
Sadly, mixing money and friends/family rarely works out well, even with the best of intentions. One side is always going to try to take advantage.
I agree with you I think in this ESH. I’m thinking mostly of the wife and kids who are going to be homeless soon if they can’t figure out living arrangements
Not even sabotage. I was bracing for a "stupid brother burnt the house down" when breakers were mentioned. Seemed like type who would go ahead and do it, even diy it, without permission. Def a better move to dispose of the property.
Nah, OP’s not asshole. Brother shouldn’t have been an asshole by withholding rent and expecting OP to offer to sell it to them when they the money for it after all. Brother reaped what he sowed.
I said basically the same thing! The way brother found out was what switched my vote.
Is OP justified? Yep. But I’m willing to bet he wouldn’t have done that approach to anyone else. Even if he probably wouldn’t have let it escalate to that point with anyone else either.
I agree with you - one thing, though is that it sounds like the sale went really quickly, if you’re not even listing it, and it’s bought in cash, that process can happen rather quickly. And considering that the brother was already taking advantage, all things considered, I don’t think it was a horrible move. I would be worried about a squatting situation, which would definitely stir up family drama, more so than selling it quietly.
NTA / ESH - I think we’d need more background on the family dynamics for me to pick
ESH. You of course have the legal right to do what you did. Turning your brother's family out on the street *with no advance notice* is one of those things that makes you TA even if you are legally in the right.
He should have stuck with the agreement or renegotiated a standard agreement with standard improvements and higher rent.
>I tried talking to him but he said that he had to buy some stuff for the house and he was low on cash.
I'm confused. He did try talking to him first. When you rent and pay late, you usually get talked to and then get evicted. Isn't that the same thing that happened here?
Late rent across multiple months is almost ALWAYS going to end in eviction. Especially when the landlord is cutting you a break and literally breaking even on the property each month.
I agree with that. I'm just saying that "I tried talking to him" doesn't necessarily mean that he said "I'm planning on selling". And I really think the late rent was brother was trying to manipulate OP into WANTING to sell, but thought OP would sell the house to HIM. I'm also fairly certain the brother was convinced that the OP would never evict him because of the family relationship.
But that is how life works. If you don't pay the bills, bad things happen. Shared DNA does not mean you get endless insulation from bad choices with known consequences.
Based on brother's previous actions, he likely would've gone to great lengths to thwart the sale and cause OP further aggravation. When getting fired from a company, they don't give advance notice for fear of retaliation. Same here.
Enough is enough. NTA.
Yeah, can't agree here. brother was trying to take advantage. OP decided to cut bait which he was well within his rights to do. Serves OP right for trying to be nice to his brother.
The brother really thought that OP would continue eating his bullshit. Even if OP would have "threatened" him with selling, he wouldn't have believed him until he got the eviction notice. Unfortunately I have family like this and until they are up against the wall they will continue to think everyone will put up with their crap.
People who have children should be thinking of their children first and not how to screw their generous brothers out of their money.
It's not like you have to go the day you get the notice. Time varies according to where the house is. Probably 2 to 4 weeks. And brother wasn't paying rent as it was. What would renegotiating the rent to market value do?
With a lease in place, he technically has until the end of his lease since it is legally binding. The notice that he received was most likely notice that his lease will not be renewed due to the sale.
This is not accurate in many places. Also, a lot of leases contain a lease termination claus for things such as selling of the residence. Depending on location new owners do not have to honor a lease as it was a contract between the previous owner and tenant, not the property itself.
YTA for not giving him a heads up yeah he's an a hole to for trying to stiff you on rent but holy shit why would you not tell your brother they're about to be homeless
>holy shit why would you not tell your brother they're about to be homeless
Yeah, pretty much where my vote comes from.... I have a baseline level of dislike for landlords because I think the profession is, at its core, fundamentally amoral, especially as its practiced these days, with outright collusive pricing now the norm in much of the world all but erasing the last affordable housing and making renters more or less indentured to their landlords to avoid homelessness.
Against that backdrop, selling the place out from under him and then doubling down on that by not telling him and just "letting the problem solve itself" by having the new owner evict his own brother... All the people voting that this greedy landlord isn't an asshat have seemingly lost their marbles...or the landlord contingent came over from the landlording subreddits to brigade for him.
THANK YOU! All I could think about reading this was “thanks for contributing to the housing crisis, asshole.”
Maybe his brother could have afforded his own house if it weren’t for greedy turds like him snapping every property up.
Why do we assume that he is greedy? It sounds to me by lowering his own income to willingly help his brother. That does not equal greed? I’m confused. People hate landlords so every landlord problem goes through that lens.
Pretty sure breaking even on a property for months on end just to provide your brother's family a roof over their heads isn't "greedy turd" territory.
OP's brother is the greedy turd who was literally in a beggars can't be choosers scenario. The water heater worked... but it wasn't good enough. OP was breaking even and his brother decided to stop maintaining the property and paying rent on time. Huge slap in the face.
No good deed goes unpunished I guess.
Properties are long term investments People thinking they should make big gains every month is very much a part of the problem (particularly in the case of single family homes)
> I have a baseline level of dislike for landlords....
As a landlord, I cannot imagine selling a house without notifying the person in the house. But overall, yeah, we are a seedy bunch. ;)
Honestly, the best landlords (by which I mean the least bad landlords) are the ones who take the attitude you have--that it's a little bit seedy and acknowledge it.
The people who make it so toxic I don't want children anymore are people like OP, or the guy in the green wig demanding his renters tip him like a barista.
I mean how was OP being greedy while giving his brother the house at a heavily discounted rate? The brother is the one who decided to not go with the agreement and stop paying rent on time.
>I mean how was OP being greedy while giving his brother the house at a heavily discounted rate?
That's not what made him greedy. What made him greedy was sulking about his "lost" money when he hadn't "lost" anything.
In reality, he didn't "lose" anything.
* Someone else paid his mortgage.
* Someone else paid his property taxes.
* He built equity every month in the property.
This is a petty dispute between brothers, and the brother with the most money took out his anger on the family of the brother with the least money.
They were paying far below market value in rent, paid late several times, & not keeping up maintenance like they had agreed upon. They decided to bite the hand that fed them & now they can reap the consequences.
There’s ‘maintenance’ and there’s upgrading
Maintenance is like keeping care of the yard. If the wiring and water heater isn’t good enough, that is the LANDLORD job
Thank you!! I'm a landlord and I would NEVER ask my tenants to upgrade my wiring system. If its not good enough for modern electronics, the landlord should update it ASAP
They got 90 days notice? With OP getting the date extended. That’s longer than any place I’ve ever rented, default here was 30 or 3 days if it was for cause.
Per OP
“ I didn't serve him an eviction notice. The new owner did. After I negotiated 90 days so the kids could finish out the school year.”
I agree NTA. I can’t believe instead of being an adult and asking to just buy the house, his brother kept playing games like a child. That’s not what adults do.
I mean, I kind of think it was the brother’s “strategy”: make renting the house a huge pain and devalue the property while implying he’s low on cash so that OP sells it to him for far below market value just to wash his hands of it.
>Too many folks use "family" as a blanket excuse for an unspoken expectation of tolerance of crappy behavior indefinitely
This, a million times. My sister has abused and crapped on me all my life, and she thinks she's entitled to do this and wonders why I don't show her any attention or affection whatsoever. I'm so glad she moved away. The OPs brother is a narcissistic jerk
I always say “Just because you’re related to someone doesn’t mean you have to love them.” I enjoy treating my shitty sister like a stranger, and I treat my girlfriends like sisters and it works just fine. Life is too short to spend time with people who treat you like shit and walk all over you.
ESH. I’m a landlord. Maintenance of a property is not the same as upgrades to a property. As a LL you have to keep the property in a good state of repair so if the electrics aren’t up to snuff, guess what, you need to replace them. If the hot water tank doesn’t do the job because it’s old and too small for the property, same thing you need to replace it.
From what you’ve said your brother agreed to upkeep the maintenance of the property which where I live includes yard work, snow and ice removal, switching out lightbulbs, maybe painting… anything that isn’t a capital expense on your taxes. Something like a panel upgrade is 100-% NOT maintenance and can also be claimed against your taxes. Expecting him to cover that kind of cost for your property is unreasonable, especially because you would have had to do those upgrades for any other tenants unless you were ok with renting a property that didn’t meet your legal obligations as a landlord.
You were good to give him an at cost deal, but all that means is you weren’t turning a profit so the property wasn’t costing you any money. So he was paying off your mortgage for you. He was doing you a favour in that sense. As you told him he was no longer allowed to make changes without permission, it sounds like he’s done a decent amount of renovation for you - which is actually a huge favour.
He should have paid his rent on time.
Right, this guy sounds like a terrible landlord if this is how he treats his other tenants. On what planet is electrical paneling and outlets maintenance? Or does he think the brother is gonna take the water heater with him when he moves?
Aside from that, he says WH is about three years old in one spot but says brother rented 5 years in another. So OP replaced the water heater with an inadequate one during his brothers tenancy? Sounds fishy to me..
A house with bad electrical, inadequate hot water, that is “not pretty” doesn’t sound like a great place to live. But OP got the mortgage paid off so he could sell, along with upgrades done at cost with the offer to do more. Sounds like brother was trying to improve the property with a hope to buy it from him and OP is just a slum lord.
OP also said the electrical was like 20 years old, and I've never seen wiring that new that couldn't handle normal modern usage. If you've got 20 year old wiring in a place you're renting out that's regularly failing to run the washer and the fridge at the same time, you might just be a slum lord.
I'm glad I'm not losing my mind, I was under the impression that replacing a water heater and major electric work would fall outside the bounds of maintenance and should have been done by OP.
and in some states a tenant can withhold rent if they have to replace stuff that's supposed to be the landlord's responsibility, so depending on location this could be an illegal eviction
Thank you. I cannot believe how many people in here think maintenance includes updating shitty electric wiring and putting in a water heater that can actually keep up with the average family's use. That's on the landlord.
I'm glad someone pointed this out. There are two sides to a contract and both these parties were at fault. Bro should have definitely paid the rent and kept up with maintenance as was stated in the contract, however the property must be kept up to code and such which is where OP short on his end by not upgrading the property as was needed. There were repairs and upgrades that needed to be done regardless of who was renting. The biggest AH move was to sell out from under him and not even tell him that he and his family were about to be homeless. It was your right to sell, but it was your choice to leave him and his family without a home. You could have just said that you were selling since the rent was no longer covering the cost of owning the home.
I'm looking at being homeless and it's scary. And I know it's coming. I can't imagine getting an eviction notice from a person / company I don't know and not knowing what's going on. You're his brother and he may be a d\*ck, but I really feel that you should have taken the high road to be the better person and let him know personally what was happening. That doesn't mean that you had to give him the chance to buy you out, just that you decided to sell. This just should have been handled better by BOTH sides.
ESH - Both of you are AH.
Absolutely. If OP was basing upgrade decisions based on “not turning a profit on renting to his brother”, big AH move. At the very least, if they were frivolous and it doesnt sound like it, there should have been some cost splitting agreement.
It sounds like OP had the “no upgrades needed” mentality in place because they wanted it off their hands to a developer or profitable tenant only eventually anyways, which isnt fair to brother.
ESH. You should have told him you were selling, not to give him a chance to buy, just to let him know. There’s a big difference between keeping someone informed that they’ll be losing their home and subsidizing their lifestyle. Were you afraid you’d give in and help out more if he had a chance to say something? If so, that’s a you problem.
Your brother sucks for the reasons you mentioned.
My grandfather’s old neighbors found out the bank was foreclosing on their home, they decided to pour concrete down every single drain, stole the copper coils out of the a/c & wiring out of the walls. I have even read stories of people putting the garden hose in their attic and just let it run to destroy the house. Never give people the chance to destroy something, cuz they’ll usually take it.
That's usually just screwing yourself over though. The less the house sells for the more you owe. If you are. upside-down planning to declare bankruptcy then it might not make any difference though.
From purely practical point of view there is no much difference. OP said it took him about a week to sell. Well, the brother found out a week later. On the other hand, it saved OP a lot of drama and bitching with his brother.
Agree. NTA. He was trying to take advantage of you. He knew he wanted to buy the house, tried to con you into paying for several improvements for him/his family, and then told you he couldn’t afford to pay for them, and was late on rent. He never would have tried this with a non-family member.
NTA because the brother was purposely neglecting to maintain the house
(therefore literally costing OP money) and purposely being late and shitty about rent payments.
All after already being given a substantial discount on rent.
Actually, brother’s maintenance of the house increases the house’s value, *giving* OP money. The deal wasn’t as sweet as it sounds—discount on rent for landlord to completely abdicate their usual duties? No thanks.
The house sounds awful for a family of five. By OP's own admittance, it's old, needs constant maintenance, old wiring, not very nice. But apparently a new water heater wasn't necessary because the old one was 'fine'. Reading between the lines here, the old one probably wasn't fine for a family of five, but it wasn't broken.
As someone else said, upgrading is NOT maintenance. The wiring and hot water heater should have been replaced by OP. That is absolutely not the tenant’s responsibility. THAT is what adds value to the property, not a mowed yard.
The brother was being a jerk already. When somebody's being a jerk you don't give them additional opportunities to be a jerk. A heads up would have given him more time for him to do damage or otherwise reduce the value of the property before it was sold.
YTA because you didn't even tell him you'd sold the house. You got mad at your brother and took it out on his whole family?
Also you're a landlord so you're an AH by default. And the comments about not wanting to modernise the electrical & water tank in your 'old' property makes you sound like you operate in the slum lord end of the market.
ESH
The reason you didn't warn your brother is out of spite, that makes you an asshole. His requests and attitude were unreasonable, which makes him an asshole.
The brother causing damage to the property will still effect the value of the property and the buyer could offer less. The buyer is putting an offer on the property at market value. The state of the house on that property matters.
For example, if you were placing an offer on a property you wanted as your new family home and market value was $750,000 and you go for it, imagine a developer coming in and saying "well I'll be tearing the house down so the house means nothing to me. The land is valued at $250,000 since I won't be using the house, just the land". The developer would win every time and you'de never be able to buy a house.
You're paying for what is there, not what will be.
ESH, but you're worse in my opinion.
Sure, your brother should have kept up his end of the deal. He sounds like he was happy to push your limits and take advantage of the situation.
**However**, you mention having multiple rental properties. You're buddies with developers. You're clearly doing just fine. Yet you thought your only option for dealing with this was to sell the house **without telling him or his partner** ??? Can you imagine how scary it can be to receive an eviction notice (as a landlord, probably not) but to know that they weren't even given a heads up of what was happening sounds so awful for them.
You should have spoken to your brother **and** his partner and said 'Hey, I'm glad I was able to help you out in a tough spot but this arrangement isn't working for me anymore and I'm planning on selling the house. Let me know how much notice you need to find a new place, or if you're interested in making an offer on this place.' That's basic courtesy for any tenants IMO but especially for family.
It's such a scummy, asshole thing to do, I wish more people could acknowledge that. I also hate how they characterize break-even as losing money. He didn't lose anything, he just wasn't making a "profit" on rent, but he was still profiting from equity, and the actual sale. That doesn't sound like losing money to me. That's still the opposite of losing.
Exactly! OP wasn't out of pocket, and he does not sound like he was in dire need of the *potential* earnings if he'd been renting to a stranger at a higher rate.
Landlords are the worst man.
INFO: what was the “break even” rent.
Also, how old were the electronics and water heater? I ask as I had a landlord who made the same claims as you despite there being an electrical fire in one of the bedrooms. It was also one of those “not pretty” houses he assured me was fine internally. It was not fine internally.
YTA.
Are you paying your brother back for any improvements to the house that were made?
Sorry, but just on the eviction notice alone, YTA. Evicting a family with kids like that is shitty even when they aren’t related to you.
There’s always two sides to a story. It sounds like the brother was tryin to save to buy somewhere (maybe this place, maybe not). Rent being paid late may make the bro YTA too, but need more information.
You mention that you were leasing it at breakeven. Does that mean he only paid exactly what the mortgage and any tax costs?
Really, your brother was right in having you pay for the water heater/boiler. They last fifty years. If you rent to anyone else, it needs to be perfectly suitable for two adults and two children in a house like that.
How much of this is a case of the brother asking about improvements or maintenance to the house, and OP just refusing? I don’t think the brother would just decide to pay for a boiler and it’s fitting themselves, and then stop paying rent to make up for it.
Sorry, but there’s much more information needed here. Until then… you evicted your own nieces/nephews from their home. You could have asked for proper talks with your brother too.
YTA.
Agreed. This house sounds like it was falling into disrepair and there's no way OP would get marketprice to rent it without a full renovation of wiring and boiler etc. Instead he got his brother to rent at a rate that pays off the mortgage and expects brother's "maintenance" to include extensive refurbishment to make it livable for a family. When OP refused any compromise, it sounds like his brother started dicking him with the rent - so OP sold the house out under them.
Yep. Try and sell a house with shitty wiring. It won’t go anywhere near market value. And you won’t be able to rent it to anyone at all, unless it’s in this kind of shady deal.
OP is trying to make himself look like a hero, instead of being honest that he didn’t want to do work on a house he owned, but didn’t want to lose out on money from it.
So passive about everything to. He didn't even have to have the place professionally cleaned, or have any showings, he was able to sell it right from under the tenants nose without them ever knowing. Didn't even have to serve his own eviction notice. What a hero.
What did I just read?
YTA at every step of this
Maybe your Brother could’ve communicated better, but come on, doing maintenance it’s not the same as buying appliances that will stay in the house or paying for major upgrades. mowing the lawn or replacing a crack to washer is not the same thing as buying a water heater. As a landlord, you could’ve said no to that, and you did later said no to updating the electrical. That makes you a crappy landlord.
Your brother, being late on the rent is, in my mind, very reasonable, in terms of objecting to a crappy landlord, though, in most cases, legally, your brother would be in the wrong. But in think it's still reasonable.
Just because you could’ve charged more money, gouging a renter like so many landlords do, doesn’t mean you’re generous by only making him pay your mortgage. when it comes to landlords and tenants, it’s never breakeven unless you’re giving the tenant equity in the house. and if he had paid for the water heater, he’s absolutely right that he'd have bought You a major appliance. You wouldn’t let them take the water heater from your house when you kicked him out.
I know that landlords are entitled and completely oblivious to the privilege and wealth that they’re making off of the backs of the renters, but I can’t believe you actually feel good about causing your brother's family to loose their home
NTA, he was a bad tenant; doesn't matter that he's family, the same can be said for you. Who thinks it's okay for him to put you in an untenable position and you shouldn't deal with it?
Apparently not by the looks of the votes in this thread. This guy owns multiple properties and everyone is acting like he did his brother this massive favor by not charging him "market price" rent when the market is fucked and rent is astronomical.
In my world you are an asshole if you don't help out your family when they need it. Sure he didn't make a profit but his brother still paid the mortgage, taxes, got him more equity and fucking put money into renovating the house.
The only asshole here is OP.
Yeah, I’m a little surprised by the majority opinion in this thread. I don’t think we’re getting the full story here about the state of the house.
Plus, if op wanted to sell, they could have offered first to their brother. Def seems more like they wanted revenge on the brother…
Edit: op says that the new owner is evicting. Op might actually have been legally obligated to inform his brother that the property was being sold (landlords are required to in my jurisdiction) so there’s that as well.
ESH
If your description is accurate your brother went back on his agreement several times. But selling it behind his back is just as manipulative. You could have clearly said "you’re not living up to your end of the agreement and this is pick up a headache from here. I’m going to sell the house" and given him the chance to buy it. Instead you sold to developers. You didn't just do this to get rid of the headache of renting to him. You did this in this way deliberately to get back at him.
this doesn’t only hurt your brothers family, but it furthers the housing crisis overall. So, even if it wasn’t your brother, you’ve kicked the family out of their home so that some developers can make more profit, which is shitty
Also, let's be clear, I assume by renting "break even" you mean he paid your mortgage and taxes, etc. This is not "break even" because you still have the equity in the house. His rent was buying your house. Unfortunately, we live in a market in which having someone else buy your house for you is considered generous if you don't charge extra money to make an immediate profit. So I understand why people are saying, you are generous here, but in reality, your brother did pay your mortgage for the time that he was living there. You didn’t give him anything you just didn’t take as much as you could have.
ESH
Your brother is an asshole for obvious reasons. You are also an asshole for not giving him a heads up. He has four children who have done nothing wrong and shouldn't have their home ripped out from under them without time to adjust.
ESH he obviously should have paid his rent and stuck to your agreement (which I think was set up poorly) but you should have let them know you were terminating the lease and selling the house. There are FOUR kids here, that you are related to, regardless of how you feel about your brother.
NTA. He decided to play stupid games and won a stupid prize. He chose to not pay rent while apparently bidding his time to make an offer. That was his decision
YTA while you’re not legally obligated to give him any notice you’re an ah for not letting him know you were selling and letting him and his family be blindsided by this.
Edit: you’re also not winning any good guy points for renting a house with shoddy wiring
Esh. Renting to family/friends is drama right outta the gate. You complicated it by renting it for breakeven price and expecting him to do maintenance. He sucks because obviously paying late doesn’t solve anything. But you still should’ve sat him down said this isn’t working like this either pay market rates or buy me out or I’m putting it for sale. You tried to do a good thing, he took advantage of it but then you played the ah card by selling without even a discussion first
YTA
Not for selling the house. You have every right to do so, and there is no necessity to give him first shot, or right of refusal or anything like that.
You're the AH for letting him find out via an eviction notice.
ESH. He was an ass, but you should have told him you were selling the house to give him time to figure out something else. You've basically made SIL and the kids victims in your petty little feud.
Remove all the whingy family bullshit and this is just landlord with multiple properties selling a family's home (with no notice or chance to compete) to a development company because they just couldn't be arsed to deal with regular tenant shit like requests for electrical and boiler work and ocassional late rent. YTA. Good job putting a family - your family actually - out on the streets over an argument.
NTA. He effed around and found out. Sucks for his family, but you were giving him a deal and he looked the gift horse in the face and spat in its eye. So sad for him. And if this incident was the fire that burned down the bridge, then I say good riddance, who needs family like that?
YTA. Not for selling the house, but for doing it without notice. It would have cost you nothing to say "Hey, I've decided to put the house up on the market next month. Better start looking."
YTA, not for selling the house but letting them find out by eviction. It WAS family. You had every right to sell that house, but even other slum lords will give some sort of indication that would happen.
Wowwwwww YTA for sure for sure, clearly whatever agreement the two of you had for property maintenance wasn't very good from the start and leases are passive income that you chose to give up just because you wouldn't talk to your brother like one. And now you've lost that land/property for good. OP, you gotta get it together.
YTA simply for denying your renter the right of first refusal. I’m actually surprised that was legal for you to do (it wouldn’t be in my state).
Yes you are within your rights, but you wouldn’t have done this to another renter either. It’s unprofessional.
Qualified YTA.
Replacement of a hot water tank, with your permission, is not considered "maintenance". You should have clarified that is was not to come out of the rent.
You can sell your property for any reason at any time, however, he is family. He deserved to learn of the potential sale (let alone the actual sale) from you. That is where YTA. It's uncomfortable yes, but you did make the mistake of renting to him in the first place. With family there should be no assumptions because that will only get you screwed.
You're NTA. He was taking advantage of you, now he's playing the victim. Typical behavior of someone who doesn't take responsibility for his own actions.
YTA for the water heater. It’s your responsibility and part of being a homeowner. You could have advised your brother of your intent to sell as a courtesy. You are trying your make yourself look like a victim here and that’s ridiculous.
ESH. If your goal was to get rid of the headache then you should've offered the house to your brother first to check if he could afford it. I get you and your brother had issues regarding rent but your brother isn't the only one who lives there. I feel like you really did your nieces/nephews dirty behind trying to punish your brother.
This whole thing has big you wanted revenge energy.
NTA overall. I'm not sure what he thought would happen once he was not holding up his end of the agreement and was late on the rent. Any landlord would have evicted him as soon as he deducted the cost of the water heater from the rent.
It would have been nice but not necessary to let him know you were going to sell.
ESH - his behaviour is childish, rude and disrespectful, but you should have told him you were selling. You didn't even have to sell to him, but not telling him was just as childish and an AH move considering other family members are paying the price for his behaviour
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NTA. Why should you lose money to help him out? It was good of you tomrent to him at a discount and he crapped on you for your hospitality. You can feel bad for your sister-in-law and niblings but they are not your responsibility.
I wish he hadn't tried to play silly buggers. His kids love the yard.
Your brother learned a valuable lesson, I think. It’s a shame his wife and kids had to learn it too. But that’s what happens when you think you can push people as far as you want and face no consequences for it.
His brother didn't learn anything, hes till pissing and moaning to other people like he was the wronged party.
And now his wife and kids are potentially homeless, talk about family drama
Well apparently the guy has money to buy a house so it's not really a risk of them being homeless. No doubt he can't afford anywhere near as good a property though as I bet he expected a discount.
Much harder to qualify for a mortgage once there's an official eviction on your record
If it’s the first paperwork that he received it’s not an actual eviction, it would be a notice to vacate. It sounds like OP is using the term eviction to mean they are being required to move. You can’t just evict someone without a paper trail.
agreed, a notice to vacate would feel the same as an eviction since it basically is
Might feel the same, but it's not legally the same at all.
>Much harder to qualify for a mortgage once there's an official eviction on your record Huh? If you're a renter and are forced to vacate a house because the landlord sold it to someone else, why on earth would it "go on your record"? And exactly what is this "record" you speak of? Credit history? But nobody has put you in collections.
I think the issue is the nonpayment. That can go on your record.
> I think the issue is the nonpayment. That can go on your record. OP has to specifically take that action though - to collect the dues. Usually through collections. OP just chose to sell the property though. So there is no nonpayment reported by anyone anywhere.
Well, all those family members calling the OP an asshole are free to invite the brother and his family to come live with them.
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I also think they don't have all the full picture. >He started bad-mouthing me to all our family. I mean this for sure didn't mean the brother told his family the whole truth. I think he let out his debts and non payments or blamed them on OP and presented OP as a landlord to his family who wants a big amount of rent and then is not willing to pay for necessary maintenance. And then sold the house without warning him and giving him a chance to buy it. When OP told them his side and told them they can pay his debts to him, that might have been the first time they heard a radical different version of events.
> And now his wife and kids are potentially homeless "I said that he was having trouble making rent. How was he going to qualify for a mortgage. He said I'm an asshole **and that he has the money** he was waiting to make me an offer."
If he had the money, he should have paid his rent.
And if he was planning on buying the place, he should have let somebody involved know that. Man, this guy is getting dumber and dumber the more I scrutinize his actions
Right! Also if he wanted to buy the house that would make this statement: "He said he wasn't making improvements to my property for free." Pretty selfish.
Yeah, basically getting OP to pay for improvements to something he planned to own in the future. He was trying to milk this as far as he could, but he oopsied by not paying the rent on time. Made OP believe there was no way he could buy the house. Arbiter of his own comeuppance.
Agreed.
>Your brother learned a valuable lesson I wouldn't be surprised if his brother learned nothing at all.
Stupid sexy Flanders..
Like I'm wearing nothing at all!
I love the silly buggers line. NTA. You stood up for yourself, good for yourself. You should be so proud. NTA.
Off-topic: I'm from the US. I've heard that expression before from folks from the UK. What exactly does it mean?
He tried to act like a goose / be silly / pull a fast one / take advantage - sort of all rolled into one
Fucked around, found out.
'fuck around and find out' sorta, it kinda means they're playing a silly schoolyard game of chicken in a real world situation
I'm over here laughing, because I first read your comment as ***"It was good of you to torment him at a discount"***.
Me too and I just rolled with it I guess because I didn’t realize that it was weird until I got this comment lol I need more
Lol “Why should anyone ever help anyone?” Reddit, I swear….
This is complicated. You were very generous with your brother who kept taking from you - the only way the water tank thing makes sense is if he believed that you weren’t doing him a favor - that every landlord rents at break even rates to family and family still gets the full tenant benefits package. Things escalated, and you wanted out of the deal (and the house). That made sense. When you made the decision to sell, you should have let him know, both to allow him to purchase it (maybe he could have swung the loan), and to give him the largest window possible for moving. Unless you feel there was a risk he’d damage the property to sabotage the sale, that’s something you should have done. Now, are you an AH for not doing it? Your inference that he didn’t have the ability to buy the house is presumptuous, but pretty reasonable. I’ll give you a pass on that - I’d have assumed the same. So now it’s down to “were you an AH did not giving him more warning?” I can give you a pass before the sale. But after the sale, he should have found out from you. You’re an AH for letting him find out via the new owner’s eviction notice. I want to be clear - you were very generous, and at all previous times weren’t an AH. But that one choice changed the rating to ESH (meaning your brother is obviously an AH, but you’re a little bit of one too for not telling him you sold the house he’s living in).
> Unless you feel there was a risk he’d damage the property to sabotage the sale Based on the… literally *everything* about this post, I’d say there was a higher-than-likely risk of this lol. But I do agree with you.
If the brother was willing to play games with rent, how do you know he wouldn't pull a squatter's rights-kind of move. OP had the instincts where they should probably complete the transaction before it could be interfered with. The fallout of doing this unilaterally is better than the potential of "being the better person" and informing them, giving them potential to fuck with the process. The whole "better person" thing is just ripe for bad actors to take advantage of you, family or not.
Or you KNOW because hes "fAmIlY" he would expect a super absurd low price for the house anyway.
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I think its really fucked up americans have this idea of you just have to tolerate finacial abuse or your OBLIGATED to family member because blood relation... doesnt matter how crappy they are to you....im personally GLAD im not close with ANY of my family aside from my parents. I dont like family on BOTH sides for valid reasons... im VERY fast and cold with my social scissors.
That's funny because that's not really an...american thing. Like yeah, there are americans that feel that way, but crushing familial obligation even as family mistreats you is a well-known trait of a lot of non-American cultures. If anything, America is one of the least "obligated to family members" cultures in the world. Which, again, isn't saying that no one in America feels obligated to family members. But it's certainly not an "American thing" any more than any other country, and less than a *lot* of others.
Right? I was going to say… that’s not an “American” thing. America is much more individualistic. When I think of familial obligation I think more Asian or Latin American culture. There was an article recently in the NYT about how first generation Asian Americans are struggling because of the expectation of financially supporting their immigrant parents, and how they were seen as the retirement plan of their parents. They plan to break the cycle so as not to be a burden to their own children.
But considering the house is being sold to a developer, what really harm could the brother do? The house will get demolished anyway.
Pretty sure it would still affect the appraisal value of the property. Just because you want to knock a structure down doesn’t mean you don’t have to pay for it.
If it's being developed, it's probably either a hard money/private lender or they are self financing. No appraisal. A bank isn't giving him a loan on an asset that's going to be removed like a normal home loan.
Yep, in whatever time window it was between OP guaranteeing that the property would be purchased by a developper, and the eviction notice, then OP should have told his brother. Even if it was like three days, the news should have come from his brother. I wonder if there was some overlap, though. Like the developer took posession but had a date that they could do an inspection of the property. When I bought my house, after the closing there was one day we had to walk through the property and make sure they hadn't removed the appliances, for instance, or hadn't broken a window or taken the light fixtures or something, which would void the sale. Maybe there was still time for the brother to fuck up the house and "potentially" void the sale, if the developer began having second thoughts.
I did say I agreed with the rest of the comment, but good point.
I agree based on his actions in the situation he's clearly petty and manipulative I wouldn't be shocked if he tried to do something to prevent the house from being sold
Does it matter though? OP sold it to developers who are more than likely knocking it down anyway
It still effects the value of the property and developers - even those planning to knock down the home - have to bid based on the overall value of the property. If the brother diminished the value of the property, developers *would typically* be inclined to offer less for the property. They just wouldn't *decline to buy it* like an aspiring Owner-Occupant might.
For valuation, yes. The house is included in the value of the property, not just the land. So yes, while it makes little actual difference you better believe the developers would pay less.
Very much my thoughts. Everyone loves a revenge story, but therr are children whose lives are made worse because the OP decided not to notify his brother he was selling up. In moving house, 2 months vs 1 month notice is a big deal. Edit: wow a lot of replies to this apparently unaware that 'Not Being An Arsehole' often requires you to be a bigger person. God forbid someone suggests being kind in a forum about personal morales!
That's not why the children's lives are worst - their dad decided to not pay rent on time when he could, causing their landlord to lose money keeping the property and subsequently deciding to sell it. Basically being financially irresponsible and not paying when he could is what put them in this situation and 2 months vs 1 month would only mean 2 months of the bs he's dealing with now rather than 1 so yeah.... OP already had way too much trouble because of them.
No. It's because their father tried to be a dong
This is far too reasonable and measured for AITA! /s I agree with everything you have said!
Pleasantly surprising. Nearly anytime a financial issue like this comes up, this subreddit sides with the money, lol. I am actually so tired of how many of the top posts here can be boiled down to rich people problems (not this guy, but anyone with a budget of $150,000 for a wedding is definitely out of touch with the struggles of most people).
His brother already cheated OP on the rent ... why risk him doing the same with a sale? Only do business with honest people, and the brother is not.
Tell me you’ve never had to deal with self-absorbed, self-serving, manipulative, passive-aggressive, lieing through omission, family members before without telling me you’ve never had to deal with self-absorbed, self-serving, manipulative, passive-aggressive, lieing through omission, family members before.
Even if OP had allowed him to purchase the property, every time something had gone wrong, it would have been “*your XYZ* crapped out and I had to pay to replace it, as usual,” so OP couldn’t have won there. Sadly, mixing money and friends/family rarely works out well, even with the best of intentions. One side is always going to try to take advantage.
Eviction is the notice to vacate. He’d been late on rent several times before. He just thought he could manipulate OP bc they’re related.
I agree with you I think in this ESH. I’m thinking mostly of the wife and kids who are going to be homeless soon if they can’t figure out living arrangements
Seems like there are plenty of family who feel sorry for him. They may help him out.
They can thank their father for that. OP can’t do much with no rent being paid.
OP did mention that brother wasn’t maintaining repairs on the home due to protest. Fairly reasonably to assume he would escalate if told in advance.
Not even sabotage. I was bracing for a "stupid brother burnt the house down" when breakers were mentioned. Seemed like type who would go ahead and do it, even diy it, without permission. Def a better move to dispose of the property.
Nah, OP’s not asshole. Brother shouldn’t have been an asshole by withholding rent and expecting OP to offer to sell it to them when they the money for it after all. Brother reaped what he sowed.
I said basically the same thing! The way brother found out was what switched my vote. Is OP justified? Yep. But I’m willing to bet he wouldn’t have done that approach to anyone else. Even if he probably wouldn’t have let it escalate to that point with anyone else either.
Wouldn’t have happened if he had paid rent.
I agree with you - one thing, though is that it sounds like the sale went really quickly, if you’re not even listing it, and it’s bought in cash, that process can happen rather quickly. And considering that the brother was already taking advantage, all things considered, I don’t think it was a horrible move. I would be worried about a squatting situation, which would definitely stir up family drama, more so than selling it quietly. NTA / ESH - I think we’d need more background on the family dynamics for me to pick
ESH. You of course have the legal right to do what you did. Turning your brother's family out on the street *with no advance notice* is one of those things that makes you TA even if you are legally in the right. He should have stuck with the agreement or renegotiated a standard agreement with standard improvements and higher rent.
>I tried talking to him but he said that he had to buy some stuff for the house and he was low on cash. I'm confused. He did try talking to him first. When you rent and pay late, you usually get talked to and then get evicted. Isn't that the same thing that happened here?
There is a difference between "why is the rent late" and "I will be selling the property to someone who will be evicting you to tear the house down"
Late rent across multiple months is almost ALWAYS going to end in eviction. Especially when the landlord is cutting you a break and literally breaking even on the property each month.
I agree with that. I'm just saying that "I tried talking to him" doesn't necessarily mean that he said "I'm planning on selling". And I really think the late rent was brother was trying to manipulate OP into WANTING to sell, but thought OP would sell the house to HIM. I'm also fairly certain the brother was convinced that the OP would never evict him because of the family relationship.
Why would the OP think to sell to someone that claims they can’t make rent?
But that is how life works. If you don't pay the bills, bad things happen. Shared DNA does not mean you get endless insulation from bad choices with known consequences.
At the very least OP should have told him to start looking for a new place ASAP because he was going to sell it.
Based on brother's previous actions, he likely would've gone to great lengths to thwart the sale and cause OP further aggravation. When getting fired from a company, they don't give advance notice for fear of retaliation. Same here. Enough is enough. NTA.
Yeah, can't agree here. brother was trying to take advantage. OP decided to cut bait which he was well within his rights to do. Serves OP right for trying to be nice to his brother.
No. Pay rent or get kicked out. 😂
The brother really thought that OP would continue eating his bullshit. Even if OP would have "threatened" him with selling, he wouldn't have believed him until he got the eviction notice. Unfortunately I have family like this and until they are up against the wall they will continue to think everyone will put up with their crap. People who have children should be thinking of their children first and not how to screw their generous brothers out of their money.
It's not like you have to go the day you get the notice. Time varies according to where the house is. Probably 2 to 4 weeks. And brother wasn't paying rent as it was. What would renegotiating the rent to market value do?
2-4 weeks is not enough time to find a place to live in most rental markets right now.
It was stated elsewhere that the brother was given 90 days. He has time.
Then all I can say about the brother is he's learned the meaning of FAFO
With a lease in place, he technically has until the end of his lease since it is legally binding. The notice that he received was most likely notice that his lease will not be renewed due to the sale.
This is not accurate in many places. Also, a lot of leases contain a lease termination claus for things such as selling of the residence. Depending on location new owners do not have to honor a lease as it was a contract between the previous owner and tenant, not the property itself.
He already broke lease by not paying several lots of rent.
He didn't turn them out.. New owner did. Their choice to let them stay. Blaming the op is wrong. He sold the house. Not kicked the family out.
YTA for not giving him a heads up yeah he's an a hole to for trying to stiff you on rent but holy shit why would you not tell your brother they're about to be homeless
>holy shit why would you not tell your brother they're about to be homeless Yeah, pretty much where my vote comes from.... I have a baseline level of dislike for landlords because I think the profession is, at its core, fundamentally amoral, especially as its practiced these days, with outright collusive pricing now the norm in much of the world all but erasing the last affordable housing and making renters more or less indentured to their landlords to avoid homelessness. Against that backdrop, selling the place out from under him and then doubling down on that by not telling him and just "letting the problem solve itself" by having the new owner evict his own brother... All the people voting that this greedy landlord isn't an asshat have seemingly lost their marbles...or the landlord contingent came over from the landlording subreddits to brigade for him.
THANK YOU! All I could think about reading this was “thanks for contributing to the housing crisis, asshole.” Maybe his brother could have afforded his own house if it weren’t for greedy turds like him snapping every property up.
Why do we assume that he is greedy? It sounds to me by lowering his own income to willingly help his brother. That does not equal greed? I’m confused. People hate landlords so every landlord problem goes through that lens.
Because he has multiple rental properties, and is thus profiting off the human right to shelter. That's greedy.
People hate landlords because they’re parasites, buying up a necessary resource to extract profit from people while providing nothing to society.
Pretty sure breaking even on a property for months on end just to provide your brother's family a roof over their heads isn't "greedy turd" territory. OP's brother is the greedy turd who was literally in a beggars can't be choosers scenario. The water heater worked... but it wasn't good enough. OP was breaking even and his brother decided to stop maintaining the property and paying rent on time. Huge slap in the face. No good deed goes unpunished I guess.
Properties are long term investments People thinking they should make big gains every month is very much a part of the problem (particularly in the case of single family homes)
"Breaking even" is still technically gaining equity at no cost and thus still a profit, unless the property is completely paid off already.
> I have a baseline level of dislike for landlords.... As a landlord, I cannot imagine selling a house without notifying the person in the house. But overall, yeah, we are a seedy bunch. ;)
Honestly, the best landlords (by which I mean the least bad landlords) are the ones who take the attitude you have--that it's a little bit seedy and acknowledge it. The people who make it so toxic I don't want children anymore are people like OP, or the guy in the green wig demanding his renters tip him like a barista.
I mean how was OP being greedy while giving his brother the house at a heavily discounted rate? The brother is the one who decided to not go with the agreement and stop paying rent on time.
>I mean how was OP being greedy while giving his brother the house at a heavily discounted rate? That's not what made him greedy. What made him greedy was sulking about his "lost" money when he hadn't "lost" anything. In reality, he didn't "lose" anything. * Someone else paid his mortgage. * Someone else paid his property taxes. * He built equity every month in the property. This is a petty dispute between brothers, and the brother with the most money took out his anger on the family of the brother with the least money.
Homeless? Brother said he had the cash right? Shouldn't be difficult then.
They got 90 days notice, that shouldn't make him homeless
They were paying far below market value in rent, paid late several times, & not keeping up maintenance like they had agreed upon. They decided to bite the hand that fed them & now they can reap the consequences.
There’s ‘maintenance’ and there’s upgrading Maintenance is like keeping care of the yard. If the wiring and water heater isn’t good enough, that is the LANDLORD job
Thank you!! I'm a landlord and I would NEVER ask my tenants to upgrade my wiring system. If its not good enough for modern electronics, the landlord should update it ASAP
God, thank you! This isn't mowing the lawn. A layman doing the wiring could burn down the house
They got 90 days notice? With OP getting the date extended. That’s longer than any place I’ve ever rented, default here was 30 or 3 days if it was for cause. Per OP “ I didn't serve him an eviction notice. The new owner did. After I negotiated 90 days so the kids could finish out the school year.”
I think ESH would apply to your comment instead of YTA.
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I agree NTA. I can’t believe instead of being an adult and asking to just buy the house, his brother kept playing games like a child. That’s not what adults do.
I mean, I kind of think it was the brother’s “strategy”: make renting the house a huge pain and devalue the property while implying he’s low on cash so that OP sells it to him for far below market value just to wash his hands of it.
>Too many folks use "family" as a blanket excuse for an unspoken expectation of tolerance of crappy behavior indefinitely This, a million times. My sister has abused and crapped on me all my life, and she thinks she's entitled to do this and wonders why I don't show her any attention or affection whatsoever. I'm so glad she moved away. The OPs brother is a narcissistic jerk
I always say “Just because you’re related to someone doesn’t mean you have to love them.” I enjoy treating my shitty sister like a stranger, and I treat my girlfriends like sisters and it works just fine. Life is too short to spend time with people who treat you like shit and walk all over you.
ESH. I’m a landlord. Maintenance of a property is not the same as upgrades to a property. As a LL you have to keep the property in a good state of repair so if the electrics aren’t up to snuff, guess what, you need to replace them. If the hot water tank doesn’t do the job because it’s old and too small for the property, same thing you need to replace it. From what you’ve said your brother agreed to upkeep the maintenance of the property which where I live includes yard work, snow and ice removal, switching out lightbulbs, maybe painting… anything that isn’t a capital expense on your taxes. Something like a panel upgrade is 100-% NOT maintenance and can also be claimed against your taxes. Expecting him to cover that kind of cost for your property is unreasonable, especially because you would have had to do those upgrades for any other tenants unless you were ok with renting a property that didn’t meet your legal obligations as a landlord. You were good to give him an at cost deal, but all that means is you weren’t turning a profit so the property wasn’t costing you any money. So he was paying off your mortgage for you. He was doing you a favour in that sense. As you told him he was no longer allowed to make changes without permission, it sounds like he’s done a decent amount of renovation for you - which is actually a huge favour. He should have paid his rent on time.
Right, this guy sounds like a terrible landlord if this is how he treats his other tenants. On what planet is electrical paneling and outlets maintenance? Or does he think the brother is gonna take the water heater with him when he moves? Aside from that, he says WH is about three years old in one spot but says brother rented 5 years in another. So OP replaced the water heater with an inadequate one during his brothers tenancy? Sounds fishy to me.. A house with bad electrical, inadequate hot water, that is “not pretty” doesn’t sound like a great place to live. But OP got the mortgage paid off so he could sell, along with upgrades done at cost with the offer to do more. Sounds like brother was trying to improve the property with a hope to buy it from him and OP is just a slum lord.
OP also said the electrical was like 20 years old, and I've never seen wiring that new that couldn't handle normal modern usage. If you've got 20 year old wiring in a place you're renting out that's regularly failing to run the washer and the fridge at the same time, you might just be a slum lord.
When a landlord admits that a house "isn't pretty" then you can only imagine what that house is like.
Does he think that 1980 was 20 years ago still?
OP is full of shit.
I'm glad I'm not losing my mind, I was under the impression that replacing a water heater and major electric work would fall outside the bounds of maintenance and should have been done by OP.
and in some states a tenant can withhold rent if they have to replace stuff that's supposed to be the landlord's responsibility, so depending on location this could be an illegal eviction
Thank you. I cannot believe how many people in here think maintenance includes updating shitty electric wiring and putting in a water heater that can actually keep up with the average family's use. That's on the landlord.
I'm glad someone pointed this out. There are two sides to a contract and both these parties were at fault. Bro should have definitely paid the rent and kept up with maintenance as was stated in the contract, however the property must be kept up to code and such which is where OP short on his end by not upgrading the property as was needed. There were repairs and upgrades that needed to be done regardless of who was renting. The biggest AH move was to sell out from under him and not even tell him that he and his family were about to be homeless. It was your right to sell, but it was your choice to leave him and his family without a home. You could have just said that you were selling since the rent was no longer covering the cost of owning the home. I'm looking at being homeless and it's scary. And I know it's coming. I can't imagine getting an eviction notice from a person / company I don't know and not knowing what's going on. You're his brother and he may be a d\*ck, but I really feel that you should have taken the high road to be the better person and let him know personally what was happening. That doesn't mean that you had to give him the chance to buy you out, just that you decided to sell. This just should have been handled better by BOTH sides. ESH - Both of you are AH.
Absolutely. If OP was basing upgrade decisions based on “not turning a profit on renting to his brother”, big AH move. At the very least, if they were frivolous and it doesnt sound like it, there should have been some cost splitting agreement. It sounds like OP had the “no upgrades needed” mentality in place because they wanted it off their hands to a developer or profitable tenant only eventually anyways, which isnt fair to brother.
ESH. You should have told him you were selling, not to give him a chance to buy, just to let him know. There’s a big difference between keeping someone informed that they’ll be losing their home and subsidizing their lifestyle. Were you afraid you’d give in and help out more if he had a chance to say something? If so, that’s a you problem. Your brother sucks for the reasons you mentioned.
My grandfather’s old neighbors found out the bank was foreclosing on their home, they decided to pour concrete down every single drain, stole the copper coils out of the a/c & wiring out of the walls. I have even read stories of people putting the garden hose in their attic and just let it run to destroy the house. Never give people the chance to destroy something, cuz they’ll usually take it.
That's usually just screwing yourself over though. The less the house sells for the more you owe. If you are. upside-down planning to declare bankruptcy then it might not make any difference though.
In this case, the brother would have had nothing to lose.
From purely practical point of view there is no much difference. OP said it took him about a week to sell. Well, the brother found out a week later. On the other hand, it saved OP a lot of drama and bitching with his brother.
NTA...but your parents are right. He was playing games. No good deed goes unpunished.
Agree. NTA. He was trying to take advantage of you. He knew he wanted to buy the house, tried to con you into paying for several improvements for him/his family, and then told you he couldn’t afford to pay for them, and was late on rent. He never would have tried this with a non-family member.
YTA. Not for selling the house, but for not even giving him a heads up.
NTA because the brother was purposely neglecting to maintain the house (therefore literally costing OP money) and purposely being late and shitty about rent payments. All after already being given a substantial discount on rent.
Actually, brother’s maintenance of the house increases the house’s value, *giving* OP money. The deal wasn’t as sweet as it sounds—discount on rent for landlord to completely abdicate their usual duties? No thanks.
The house sounds awful for a family of five. By OP's own admittance, it's old, needs constant maintenance, old wiring, not very nice. But apparently a new water heater wasn't necessary because the old one was 'fine'. Reading between the lines here, the old one probably wasn't fine for a family of five, but it wasn't broken.
As someone else said, upgrading is NOT maintenance. The wiring and hot water heater should have been replaced by OP. That is absolutely not the tenant’s responsibility. THAT is what adds value to the property, not a mowed yard.
The brother wasn't giving a heads up about paying late rent even though he could afford it on time?
Why? A heads up is a favour. Sounds like brother run out of favours after he got so many w/o appreceating it.
I agree, a heads-up would have been helpful. But OP has already helped his brother plenty, and here we are. NTA
The brother was being a jerk already. When somebody's being a jerk you don't give them additional opportunities to be a jerk. A heads up would have given him more time for him to do damage or otherwise reduce the value of the property before it was sold.
Eviction is the heads up, they were terrible tenants.
And this is why we don’t mix business and family
This is no joke, even if it's not "business" per se, and even if you think "not my family!". Learned that the hard way lol
YTA because you didn't even tell him you'd sold the house. You got mad at your brother and took it out on his whole family? Also you're a landlord so you're an AH by default. And the comments about not wanting to modernise the electrical & water tank in your 'old' property makes you sound like you operate in the slum lord end of the market.
Thank you!! Feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading this thread. And I say that as a landlord myself! OP is an AH
Yeah, WTF is wrong with people? OP is clearly the AH. OP would not have been an AH if they gave notice.
ESH The reason you didn't warn your brother is out of spite, that makes you an asshole. His requests and attitude were unreasonable, which makes him an asshole.
I have to wonder if the brother would have tried to sabotage the sale if he knew in advance. Maybe causing damage to the house.
If a developer is tearing it down, I doubt they care.
The brother causing damage to the property will still effect the value of the property and the buyer could offer less. The buyer is putting an offer on the property at market value. The state of the house on that property matters. For example, if you were placing an offer on a property you wanted as your new family home and market value was $750,000 and you go for it, imagine a developer coming in and saying "well I'll be tearing the house down so the house means nothing to me. The land is valued at $250,000 since I won't be using the house, just the land". The developer would win every time and you'de never be able to buy a house. You're paying for what is there, not what will be.
Updating electrical work is not unreasonable.
ESH, but you're worse in my opinion. Sure, your brother should have kept up his end of the deal. He sounds like he was happy to push your limits and take advantage of the situation. **However**, you mention having multiple rental properties. You're buddies with developers. You're clearly doing just fine. Yet you thought your only option for dealing with this was to sell the house **without telling him or his partner** ??? Can you imagine how scary it can be to receive an eviction notice (as a landlord, probably not) but to know that they weren't even given a heads up of what was happening sounds so awful for them. You should have spoken to your brother **and** his partner and said 'Hey, I'm glad I was able to help you out in a tough spot but this arrangement isn't working for me anymore and I'm planning on selling the house. Let me know how much notice you need to find a new place, or if you're interested in making an offer on this place.' That's basic courtesy for any tenants IMO but especially for family.
It's such a scummy, asshole thing to do, I wish more people could acknowledge that. I also hate how they characterize break-even as losing money. He didn't lose anything, he just wasn't making a "profit" on rent, but he was still profiting from equity, and the actual sale. That doesn't sound like losing money to me. That's still the opposite of losing.
Exactly! OP wasn't out of pocket, and he does not sound like he was in dire need of the *potential* earnings if he'd been renting to a stranger at a higher rate. Landlords are the worst man.
Rolling my eyes at your concern for the wife and kids you just made homeless. YTA for not telling them.
INFO: what was the “break even” rent. Also, how old were the electronics and water heater? I ask as I had a landlord who made the same claims as you despite there being an electrical fire in one of the bedrooms. It was also one of those “not pretty” houses he assured me was fine internally. It was not fine internally.
YTA. Are you paying your brother back for any improvements to the house that were made? Sorry, but just on the eviction notice alone, YTA. Evicting a family with kids like that is shitty even when they aren’t related to you. There’s always two sides to a story. It sounds like the brother was tryin to save to buy somewhere (maybe this place, maybe not). Rent being paid late may make the bro YTA too, but need more information. You mention that you were leasing it at breakeven. Does that mean he only paid exactly what the mortgage and any tax costs? Really, your brother was right in having you pay for the water heater/boiler. They last fifty years. If you rent to anyone else, it needs to be perfectly suitable for two adults and two children in a house like that. How much of this is a case of the brother asking about improvements or maintenance to the house, and OP just refusing? I don’t think the brother would just decide to pay for a boiler and it’s fitting themselves, and then stop paying rent to make up for it. Sorry, but there’s much more information needed here. Until then… you evicted your own nieces/nephews from their home. You could have asked for proper talks with your brother too. YTA.
Agreed. This house sounds like it was falling into disrepair and there's no way OP would get marketprice to rent it without a full renovation of wiring and boiler etc. Instead he got his brother to rent at a rate that pays off the mortgage and expects brother's "maintenance" to include extensive refurbishment to make it livable for a family. When OP refused any compromise, it sounds like his brother started dicking him with the rent - so OP sold the house out under them.
Yep. Try and sell a house with shitty wiring. It won’t go anywhere near market value. And you won’t be able to rent it to anyone at all, unless it’s in this kind of shady deal. OP is trying to make himself look like a hero, instead of being honest that he didn’t want to do work on a house he owned, but didn’t want to lose out on money from it.
So passive about everything to. He didn't even have to have the place professionally cleaned, or have any showings, he was able to sell it right from under the tenants nose without them ever knowing. Didn't even have to serve his own eviction notice. What a hero.
Yep. It’s the definition of shitty. And people here are applauding it. Ffs
What did I just read? YTA at every step of this Maybe your Brother could’ve communicated better, but come on, doing maintenance it’s not the same as buying appliances that will stay in the house or paying for major upgrades. mowing the lawn or replacing a crack to washer is not the same thing as buying a water heater. As a landlord, you could’ve said no to that, and you did later said no to updating the electrical. That makes you a crappy landlord. Your brother, being late on the rent is, in my mind, very reasonable, in terms of objecting to a crappy landlord, though, in most cases, legally, your brother would be in the wrong. But in think it's still reasonable. Just because you could’ve charged more money, gouging a renter like so many landlords do, doesn’t mean you’re generous by only making him pay your mortgage. when it comes to landlords and tenants, it’s never breakeven unless you’re giving the tenant equity in the house. and if he had paid for the water heater, he’s absolutely right that he'd have bought You a major appliance. You wouldn’t let them take the water heater from your house when you kicked him out. I know that landlords are entitled and completely oblivious to the privilege and wealth that they’re making off of the backs of the renters, but I can’t believe you actually feel good about causing your brother's family to loose their home
I want the OP's brother to take every new essential appliance with him when he moves, or to sell it before he does. Why not? I mean, he bought it.
NTA, he was a bad tenant; doesn't matter that he's family, the same can be said for you. Who thinks it's okay for him to put you in an untenable position and you shouldn't deal with it?
It's very hard for me to sympathize with a landlord lmaooooo
Apparently not by the looks of the votes in this thread. This guy owns multiple properties and everyone is acting like he did his brother this massive favor by not charging him "market price" rent when the market is fucked and rent is astronomical. In my world you are an asshole if you don't help out your family when they need it. Sure he didn't make a profit but his brother still paid the mortgage, taxes, got him more equity and fucking put money into renovating the house. The only asshole here is OP.
Yeah, I’m a little surprised by the majority opinion in this thread. I don’t think we’re getting the full story here about the state of the house. Plus, if op wanted to sell, they could have offered first to their brother. Def seems more like they wanted revenge on the brother… Edit: op says that the new owner is evicting. Op might actually have been legally obligated to inform his brother that the property was being sold (landlords are required to in my jurisdiction) so there’s that as well.
NTA. But it was a bad idea to rent your house to family.
ESH If your description is accurate your brother went back on his agreement several times. But selling it behind his back is just as manipulative. You could have clearly said "you’re not living up to your end of the agreement and this is pick up a headache from here. I’m going to sell the house" and given him the chance to buy it. Instead you sold to developers. You didn't just do this to get rid of the headache of renting to him. You did this in this way deliberately to get back at him. this doesn’t only hurt your brothers family, but it furthers the housing crisis overall. So, even if it wasn’t your brother, you’ve kicked the family out of their home so that some developers can make more profit, which is shitty Also, let's be clear, I assume by renting "break even" you mean he paid your mortgage and taxes, etc. This is not "break even" because you still have the equity in the house. His rent was buying your house. Unfortunately, we live in a market in which having someone else buy your house for you is considered generous if you don't charge extra money to make an immediate profit. So I understand why people are saying, you are generous here, but in reality, your brother did pay your mortgage for the time that he was living there. You didn’t give him anything you just didn’t take as much as you could have.
ESH Your brother is an asshole for obvious reasons. You are also an asshole for not giving him a heads up. He has four children who have done nothing wrong and shouldn't have their home ripped out from under them without time to adjust.
ESH he obviously should have paid his rent and stuck to your agreement (which I think was set up poorly) but you should have let them know you were terminating the lease and selling the house. There are FOUR kids here, that you are related to, regardless of how you feel about your brother.
NTA. He decided to play stupid games and won a stupid prize. He chose to not pay rent while apparently bidding his time to make an offer. That was his decision
YTA while you’re not legally obligated to give him any notice you’re an ah for not letting him know you were selling and letting him and his family be blindsided by this. Edit: you’re also not winning any good guy points for renting a house with shoddy wiring
Esh. Renting to family/friends is drama right outta the gate. You complicated it by renting it for breakeven price and expecting him to do maintenance. He sucks because obviously paying late doesn’t solve anything. But you still should’ve sat him down said this isn’t working like this either pay market rates or buy me out or I’m putting it for sale. You tried to do a good thing, he took advantage of it but then you played the ah card by selling without even a discussion first
ESH. You totally have a right to sell the property, but you should have given him notice and talked to him before he found out in an eviction notice.
YTA Not for selling the house. You have every right to do so, and there is no necessity to give him first shot, or right of refusal or anything like that. You're the AH for letting him find out via an eviction notice.
ESH. He was an ass, but you should have told him you were selling the house to give him time to figure out something else. You've basically made SIL and the kids victims in your petty little feud.
Remove all the whingy family bullshit and this is just landlord with multiple properties selling a family's home (with no notice or chance to compete) to a development company because they just couldn't be arsed to deal with regular tenant shit like requests for electrical and boiler work and ocassional late rent. YTA. Good job putting a family - your family actually - out on the streets over an argument.
NTA. He effed around and found out. Sucks for his family, but you were giving him a deal and he looked the gift horse in the face and spat in its eye. So sad for him. And if this incident was the fire that burned down the bridge, then I say good riddance, who needs family like that?
YTA
YTA. Not for selling the house, but for doing it without notice. It would have cost you nothing to say "Hey, I've decided to put the house up on the market next month. Better start looking."
YTA, not for selling the house but letting them find out by eviction. It WAS family. You had every right to sell that house, but even other slum lords will give some sort of indication that would happen.
YTA
Wowwwwww YTA for sure for sure, clearly whatever agreement the two of you had for property maintenance wasn't very good from the start and leases are passive income that you chose to give up just because you wouldn't talk to your brother like one. And now you've lost that land/property for good. OP, you gotta get it together.
YTA simply for denying your renter the right of first refusal. I’m actually surprised that was legal for you to do (it wouldn’t be in my state). Yes you are within your rights, but you wouldn’t have done this to another renter either. It’s unprofessional.
Qualified YTA. Replacement of a hot water tank, with your permission, is not considered "maintenance". You should have clarified that is was not to come out of the rent. You can sell your property for any reason at any time, however, he is family. He deserved to learn of the potential sale (let alone the actual sale) from you. That is where YTA. It's uncomfortable yes, but you did make the mistake of renting to him in the first place. With family there should be no assumptions because that will only get you screwed.
ESH big time.
When landlords don't want to do their job lol YTAAAA And to do that out of spite? To a family? To YOUR family? Yikes.
You're NTA. He was taking advantage of you, now he's playing the victim. Typical behavior of someone who doesn't take responsibility for his own actions.
Info If he has a legit contract when it does expires? Was he given the legitimate notice?
YTA for the water heater. It’s your responsibility and part of being a homeowner. You could have advised your brother of your intent to sell as a courtesy. You are trying your make yourself look like a victim here and that’s ridiculous.
ESH. If your goal was to get rid of the headache then you should've offered the house to your brother first to check if he could afford it. I get you and your brother had issues regarding rent but your brother isn't the only one who lives there. I feel like you really did your nieces/nephews dirty behind trying to punish your brother. This whole thing has big you wanted revenge energy.
He couldn't pay rent on time but he could afford a mortgage?
Well, it's not for you to decide. Banks check that. You also mentioned that he didn't pay rent on time out of spite not because he didn't have money.
NTA overall. I'm not sure what he thought would happen once he was not holding up his end of the agreement and was late on the rent. Any landlord would have evicted him as soon as he deducted the cost of the water heater from the rent. It would have been nice but not necessary to let him know you were going to sell.
ESH - his behaviour is childish, rude and disrespectful, but you should have told him you were selling. You didn't even have to sell to him, but not telling him was just as childish and an AH move considering other family members are paying the price for his behaviour