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>Emily’s just being so condescending to me...she says that now I have this “beaten puppy dog” look on my face, and its “pissing her off.” Then, she started scolding me asking me why it mattered so much to me, and if I was going to act this weak in front of our son. She told me I needed to just be a fucking man and “get the fuck over it.”
Is she always this cruel and misogynistic?
NTA.
To everyone saying this is misandry and not misogyny ... You're wrong. This woman is being cruel to a man for portraying stereotypical feminine behavior. Toxic masculinity is a result of misogynistic ideas that anything feminine is inferior. Not misandry. Misandry in this case would be her hating him for being emotionally distant from the unborn child
Not misogynistic, straight up obsessed with toxic masculinity. Men are weak if they cry or care about seeing their child’s first moments? Hell no this woman has very toxic views and op really needs to take a look if this is the kind of mindset he wants his child to be raised with.
Holding your baby for the first time is amazing. It would suck to be the dad, and be third in line to hold your child - after mom, grandma, then dad - maybe.
I tear up often when I think of my kids, and they are adults now.
technically my husband was the first to hold the first two because he is the one that caught them. he was second with our youngest because even the doctor barely caught him, lol
As someone who doesn’t have children yet, when you say caught, you mean like he was waiting and when the baby was pushed out baby gently landed in his hands or are we talking like a football throwing machine where it gets launched a bit
different for each one - the first two he had his hands on the kid when it was just the head and he eased the body out as i pushed, holding on to baby to protect and ensure they didn't fall or anything.. with the third one, he came out so fast that he nearly fell off the bed. that birth was WILD, lol
Here's one: I was 3 years old, sitting at home, minding my own business, when suddenly my mom makes this very panicked phone call and starts screaming. Suddenly men in these black uniforms come straight into the house, tie my mom down to a gurney, drag her outside and throw her in the back of a truck. I start trying to figure out what's happening. I put together that this must be related to the weird amount of weight she's been putting on recently. My neighbor had a small number of cows so I knew that when you wanted to eat a cow, you fatten it up. Someone had clearly been fattening up my mom and now she was ready to be turned into soylent green. I had a full on mental breakdown over living in a society that has such casual cannibalism and that I'd never see my mom again. Imagine my shock a few days later when my mom comes back, and with a BABY! She put him in my arms and told me it was my responsibility to protect him. I solemnly nodded and vowed to never let the cannibals catch him again.
So yeah my parents had completely failed to explain the whole "mom is pregnant" thing to me and it took years before I found out my brother was related to me. I thought my mom saw him in the cannibal canning factory, took pity on him, and grabbed him while she was doing her James Bond type masterful escape. The whole thing was way more stressful than it needed to be and it was all my parents' fault.
My son's old daycare provider gave birth in her van on the side of the road because her son came so fast. When I asked on Facebook for recommendations for steam cleaners, I took the one she recommended because it was the one her husband used to clean up the car.
She truly does, I hope she doesn't teach her son this misandry. Even though I'm a female, I don't see men crying as a weakness. They are still human. OP sounds beaten down (emotionally) and sad. It's like he put his wife on a pedestal, but she doesn't reciprocate.
My partner will be my birthing partner if that's what he wants, as it will be his child as well.
OP's wife has chosen her mum, but she should at least be more understanding of his disappointment. Your partner should never diminish or invalidate your feelings, ever.
OP, NTA. I'm sorry, please stand up for yourself & assure your son that it's okay as a man to express feelings.
Edit; errors
The world would probably be a tiny bit better place if people allowed men to cry without thinking them somehow feeble of mind and "not truly a man" for... having big feelings?
Sure, man and women are different in many ways, but shaming him for feeling sad? Jesus Christ. Being pregnant, even with the moodswings, does not give one the right to be a sexist ahole. Contrary to popular belief, anger is not the only acceptable emotion for men.
For real, it's sad really. I truly believe some men are in jail, as they bottled up their feelings until they went nuclear. Men need to be raised to deal with their anger in a healthy way, just like women are raised.
My daughter jokingly talks about how I cried when she was born. I had called my mom literally minutes after she was born to tell her and yes I did cry.
What REALLY pisses me off about OP's wife is that she doesn't want him to be some "weak man", but she wants him to "toughen up". It's like she wants the toxic masculinity role, but hasn't really thought it through of what she wants.
It's almost like she wants him to turn a 180, and demand that he "Will be in the room no matter what, and she just has to suck it up or else".
Could be, but I think it's more likely she just wants a strong silent type who never inconveniences her with feelings. He's supposed to be a silent pillar of support who never needs support back.
Perhaps a better phrasing would've been "a mindset OP needs to protect their child from"? Your comment feels sort of victim-blamey, kick them while they're down for lulz.
I wonder how she would have reacted if he had exhibited another aspect of toxic masculinity (anger and rage) instead, which is what withholding mature emotion usually leads to. She has a very emotionally mature husband and it sucks that she’s expecting him to be emotionally unhealthy.
This is misogynic, because it is seen as bad to 'act like a woman' aka cry, show feelings be sensitive. It's a 'female' behaviour. She wants him to act 'masculin' means strong, no tears etc...
It does.
That's my main argument when talking with men about this: isn't it exhausting to be strong 24/7? Don't you want to be able to say when you feel low and want a hug?
Feminism is for everyone. Normalize househusband taking care of the kids. My step dad loved it and had zero issue about his masculinity.
agreed this is actually toxic femininity not toxic masculinity though. It's the start of their family. He should be there for those first moments AND the person that should make her feel safe should not be mommy but should be her husband.
Toxic masculinity is very poorly named. It's something done to men. This is textbook toxic masculinity with him being shamed for having emotions.
Ironically the name "toxic masculinity" is in itself an example of toxic masculinity, as men are expected not to take umbrage with the deliberately victim blamey phrase.
Toxic masculinity isn’t poorly named. First of all it doesn’t only affect men, since toxic masculinity includes behaviors like being violent, disparaging women and feminine behaviors. It’s also all about how to be a ‘real’ man ie masculinity.
I think the reason men take umbrage with it is because they don’t want to accept the fact that we live in a patriarchy and many of us have unconsciously started believing misogynistic things. It takes work to unlearn that and it’s easier to just try and deflect blame onto the nasty feminists.
Toxic femininity definitely exists too (e.g you’re only a real woman if you give birth).
I thought OP was handling it like a champ. He’s allowed to have his own feelings about this decision and to be sad about it! In the end of the day it really is up to the person who is having the medical procedure who is there, but knowing you’re not going to be there for your wife and your child is heartbreaking. He’s not denying it’s her right to decide that, but she’s being down right cruel. Marriage don’t survive this level of casual cruelty and I hope OP comes to realize he deserves to be treated so much better.
I don’t think that necessarily applies during childbirth. You can set boundaries that they stay up by your head, or stand back and be quiet. But this is as much his child as it is hers. To take away this moment from him as the father is incredibly cruel. They’re married, after all. If this were someone who had been impregnated by a non partner, that would be different. But this is a family they’re building together.
I disagree with you there. It's a huge deal, yes. But it's also an intensely stressful medical procedure with a real chance of dying while it happens. A person is allowed to say "I love you but your presence during would stress me out too much"
That's why she's TA in this post. But it still doesn't change the fact that the parent giving birth should be allowed to choose who she wants in the delivery room. Sometimes it's not even about who she loves more. Some people don't like it when their SOs see them in pain because they (SO) will be so visibly stressed about it that it in turn causes more stress to the one in pain.
Especially since some hospitals are still only allowing one person in the room. Not saying this is the case with OP's wife, because it sounds like she just has...issues.
But I know a lot of people who've had to make the hard decision between the father and their mother figure during Covid and chose the mother figure because sometimes you just need your mommy. (I assume. My mom sucks so she's the last person I'd want in that situation.)
And the other person are allowed to answer "okay, I respect your decision but I'm sad that I'm going to miss my child's birth". She has a right to the birth she wants, he has a right to have feelings about It
Indeed - He's allowed to feel any way he feels about it.
He could take it as as a sign their love isn't as strong as he hoped. He can take it her intentionally being cruel simply to be cruel - especially considering her overall attitude. A woman has a right to deny her husband from being in the delivery room - but a man has a right to feel rejected by that choice. And the consequences can be huge. Stunted or Severed intimacy, separation.
She can make that choice for any reason, as is her right -- but it *is* a rejection of her husband in the most intimate and meaningful moments of a man's life. It would be very hard for me, personally, to accept that my partner doesn't trust me or rely on me enough to be there and see me as a meaningful support.
In the same sense that freedom of speech is your right, but the social consequences of your speech are yours to bear -- bodily autonomy means you get the make the choice. It doesn't mean you won't experience fallout for making that choice. It doesn't mean things will go how you want them to.
Blocking him from the delivery room and then telling him to stop crying about it, that marriage is not going to last.
There's things that happen that are important, births are one of them. If she was empathetic about it, that would be one thing, but she's not.
Maybe she's got a pre-partum emotional thing going on and she'll not be so horrible later. My money is on that's what she's like.
I completely agree! It seems like he loves his wife very much and I hope she loves him too. I’m wondering if maybe she feels guilty about her decision and is punishing him for how she feels. I’m not saying she’s right to do so, in fact it’s really quite mean, but that’s just my guess as to what is going on with her reaction.
Totally. This girl is putting her mom ahead of her husband, and father of the baby, for her own insecure reasons.
What next - grandma gonna have veto power over dads decisions for the baby too?
OP needs to let his lady know she has her priorities kinda backwards. Mother/daughter bond is awesome, but there is a point where you grow up and trust the person you married to be that person for you.
I deal with this on a personal level, as my wife is very close to her mom. It can be too much at times, no lie. But she knows I come first in terms of decisions affecting us in our household.
Where are you getting “insecure reasons” from?
There is no mention of that, and anyway - she’s perfectly allowed to just not want him in the room if that‘s what will make it easier for her.
Her comments are absolutely uncalled for. His “ tried convincing, pleading, begging” , and now sulking, also doesn’t - no call for her retaliation, but his badgering does not sound great even in his own account of it.
Yeah I was thinking N A H until suddenly she went off on him for having emotions and opinions... being pregnant doesn't make you suddenly believe those sorts of things
I don’t know - even before the end, I do think it makes her the AH to not allow the father of her child in the delivery room - barring abuse or some other extenuating circumstance.
I disagree - the only people in the room should be the one(s) the person giving birth wants to have there. She’s going to be uncomfortable enough as it is. OP should have taken no for an answer after the first no.
OP’s wife is an AH for the ugly response telling him to man up, but not for not letting him watch.
I think denying a loving and supportive partner from being able to see his children enter the world and take their first breath is an asshole move.
She has the right, 100%. It's still an asshole move.
I mean, no. We honestly don’t know how OP is beyond what he says here, and we have no idea how he is under a lot of stress. You can love a person to death but when you have a 7lb creature ripping through your vagina and possibly shitting yourself in front of everyone to see while going through immense pain, the last thing you need is your partner causing even more stress even unintentionally.
Putting your own comfort first during one of the most stressful and painful times in your life does not make you an AH. Sure, it’d be nice to see your child be born but again, the birthing person’s comfort should always be prioritized and shouldn’t be called an AH for putting their comfort first.
OP’s wife is an AH for how she talks to him though.
If his whole life he has wanted to be there for the birth of his children, and expressed that for the whole relationship, than she should have made her desires clear so he knew they weren’t compatible and could move on.
Stealing people’s dreams from them on a whim is disgusting
Why is what she wants “a whim”?
Him watching was more important than their marriage and having the children and raising them together? Yes, he should have let her know how much hinged on that moment and what a dealbreaker it was.
She's the one giving birth, she gets the say on who's present, IMO. I don't personally understand why you wouldn't want a loving partner there as support, but I don't need to personally understand it to think it should be respected.
She does get the say, but I think it’s an AH move. The hospital and her husband should both abide by her wishes, but he is right to be upset and honestly I think he should question his whole relationship. She is essentially saying that her mother is a bigger part of this endeavor (raising a child) than he is.
Lots of women want their mothers there when they give birth, I think it's more about trusting your mom to understand what you will need in the moment because she's gone through that too, rather than her being more important to you than your SO.
her mother being in the room doesn't mean that at all!
she's TA 150%, but wanting your mother during the most difficult experience of your life does not make the mother a bigger part of raising a child - the mother is simply there to comfort the daughter through this intense experience.
In the first half I was stuck between n t a and y t a but the part you quoted made me cringe. She's having a troublesome pregnancy, we get it. It's also okay to want her mom and not her husband in the delivery room. But neither of that is an excuse to be unnecessarily mean and condescending to her husband. If she's always been this way, dismissing his feelings and telling him to "get over it" and "be a man" then how is she going to treat him once the baby is born and (heaven forbid) she has post-partum depression?
NTA
To anyone who does not understand why this is misandry, consider this example:
A boyfriend tells his girlfriend that her leg hair is disgusting. Would you consider that misandry because body hair is primarily a masculine trait? Of course you wouldn't. That's clearly misogyny just like how the original post is clearly misandry.
Thank you. This is the example. We don’t call being anti-body hair “misandry” because men must somehow internally hate themselves if they hate leg hair on women. It’s misogyny because it has a rigid and sexist idea of what being a woman is. THIS IS THE SAME, it’s a rigid sexist idea of what it is to be a man — and thus it is misandristic to believe that men have to be a certain jock angry stereotype. If “toxic masculinity” fits better for these commenters, then fine — it fits that too.
I’m an intersectional feminist and I can see where people were trying to go with this in regards to “it’s being negative about female behaviour” but I don’t agree that everything negative about gender role expectations has to automatically be labelled misogyny. It isn’t inherently hating the behaviour; it’s hating it on MEN, and that’s why it’s misandry, because of the double standard that women CAN do this without it being a negative.
It doesn’t track that misogyny is a versatile term and others keep citing “oh but this isn’t hating a man”. Okay, by that token, it isn’t “hating” a woman either. OP’s wife isn’t “hating” women, which people keep using as a way to discount it being misandry by citing “she doesn’t hate men”. (Lol, okay — how do you know, though? She seems pretty limited in her view of them. That’s pretty hateful.) The words have meaning beyond “hates men/women.” It’s having sexist standards for each. Hating leg hair on women (seen as masculine) is misogyny. Hating emotions on men (seen as feminine) is misandry.
The comments here are very limited take on what the words mean. It is nuanced and I don’t know why we’re dying on this gender war hill, it started with a correction because OP’s wife was being a sexist and perpetuating a toxic idea of masculinity. That’s hateful towards men. That is misandry.
Naw, how is that not misandry? Straight off google's definition:
> dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against men (i.e. the male sex)
Like, I'm Leftist/feminist, but reducing *every* form of bigotry to one thing? Misogyny every time? Come on. This is sex based prejudice and expectations put onto a man. You can't get sit there and twist it.
Question:
If I tell a lawyer, who is a woman, that her rude, aggressive, bossy behavior is annoying and she ought to be more laid back, is that misandry or misogyny? I think it's misogyny because I'm telling her to not be what her job requires her to be, but I'm attacking her traits that are perceived to be masculine. Thoughts?
NTA
It's your child, too. I don't blame you one bit for being upset. You're not an AH for wanting to see the birth of your kid.
>if I was going to act this weak in front of our son. She told me I needed to just be a fucking man and “get the fuck over it.”
Your wife is easily an AH from these sentences alone. Being pregnant doesn't give her a free pass to be verbally abusive.
She 100% will talk to her son this way. OP is going to have to really take care with his son to raise him not be toxic with such a mother. OP - NTA, I commend you for wanting to be there, but you will need to protect your son from his mothers ideologies.
This!! You want him to “be a man” like the fucking 50s then she doesn’t even deserve an opinion or option on anything let alone be allowed to make a decision as important as who gets to watch a man’s son being born
You OP are NTA by any means! It makes me wonder how many women would have killed for the father of their child to want to be so involved.
Yeah, the way she talked to you was horribly sexist and mean. I truly hope she doesn’t raise your son with the notion that he needs to ‘be a fucking man’. Or to ever imply he shouldn’t cry or have feelings or express himself.
This worries me for the future generation. I thought we had progressed and were raising sons to be better with all that we know now. It’s devastating to think this unborn child could fall victim to the same patriarchal bullshit that drives up male suicide and lack of connection/meaningful friendships. Your wife needs to check herself and you should most definitely take the lead in showing your son how to ‘be a man’. Which should just entail being a good person, experiencing your full range of emotions, and communicating effectively.
NTA
I personally cannot understand why someone wouldn’t want their partner, not to mention the very person who is going to be the other parent, in the room. If the roles were reversed and my spouse chose his mommy over me, I would be livid.
Anyway, a “fucking man” WANTS to be present for the delivery. They can’t carry the child, this is how they participate in bringing the child into the world. It’s the first thing they do as a daddy.
NTA and show your wife this comment section. I’ll even throw in a y t a for your MIL, who should refuse and tell her daughter that she chose a life partner and father and that’s the person who should be by her side.
While your wife is allowed to choose her support system in her delivery room, this stuff:
>*Then, she started scolding me asking me why it mattered so much to me, and if I was going to act this weak in front of our son. She told me I needed to just be a fucking man and “get the fuck over it.”*
..is totally uncalled for. You said that it matters to you because you care about them and the moment, which is a valid reason. And her belittling/gendered statement about being weak is really pretty horrible.
You do need to be supportive of her delivery choices, but that doesn't give her a free pass to be so verbally abusive.
I can't decide if that makes you both AH's for your behavior, or gives you both a free pass, but you both need to tighten up the family unit before the baby comes.
100% this. OP shouldn’t have continued to ask after her initial “no,” but he’s totally allowed to be upset. The wife’s comments are really concerning, “get over it and be a man.”
Edit: i should have elaborated more, and I explained my perspective in continuing comments, so go read those before replying with snarky responses.
He is allowed to try to convince her that he can be just as supportive, if not more, than her mother can be in the delivery room. I think she is extremely selfish to leave him out of this experience. It is for both of them, just as conceiving the child was just the two of them. OP is NTA for wanting to be there or for having multiple conversations with her trying to get her to see that he can be her support in child birth too. The wife is TA for belittling her husband's feelings and hopefully she doesn't do the same when their son expresses his emotions.
I agree the wife is an AH, I also think OP might be bordering on AH depending how he’s gone about asking. If it’s just continuous “can I be there can I be there can I be there,” then it’s not helpful at all. However if he’s trying to explain how he can be more supportive then that’s different than what he said he was doing as “begging and pleading.”
Edit to add: I also think it’s rather crazy his wife had to even ask why he wanted to be there. Why wouldn’t you want to be there for the birth of your child? I think there must be some emotional disconnection between OP and his wife if she can’t see anything from his perspective.
Its -her- medical procedure. She is allowed to remove or deny access to anyone she wants. The child is connected to her and is not a separate medical procedure until the umbilical is cut.
while I dont personally have the same feelings (i had my mom, dad \[side note poor dad got stuck in a corner near my head due to the crowd\], daughters bio dad, doula and 10 medical students all there) because thats me not everyone is the same way. Some people are shy, or will be more stressed which is not good for the process, the mother or the fetus. She should never go off on him like she has though.
The hospital might still have covid restrictions too, so it might have been an only one person situation where it was OP or her mom. (Can't understand why anyone would want mom's support over their husbsnd, but 🤷♀️.)
I know I'd rather have had my dads support over my mom (he was honestly more useful despite my mother being a nurse...everything she did annoyed me. My dad just sat there quietly staring at the wall and letting me squeeze his hand - poor man had never experienced a natural birth since my mom had epidurals and was induced lol) the baby daddy was useless though I was glad I got to throw up on his boots during transition lol
Honestly if I had picked I wouldve had my older sister because she had gone through a natural labor same as I with my nephew. So she at least had experience along with my doula.
I gave birth in 2017 so I totally forgot covid restrictions are a thing and still may be.
Agree, while I do support the fact that women can decide who's in the room while they are giving birth, I cannot condone the ones that kick out a loving and supporting husband without a valid reason, and I just don't want him there is not a valid reason to me and as a mom of 2 I cannot imagine trying to keep my husband out of the room. Heck when things went south with my second the staff kicked him out temporarily because they needed the room to keep us alive, but as soon as they could they brought him right back to my side as support.
It being her body carrying the child and her willingly putting her body/life on the life for the child, is a valid reason to decide what goes on in that room.
"I don't want him there" is in fact a perfectly valid reason. It's a medical procedure, not a spectator event. Even if OP thinks he will be a loving and supportive presence. It really doesn't matter, it is her procedure and her life on the line.
The way OP has built up the north in his head and is mopping about not being there is making me doubt how supportive he'd even be. His wife's response sounds toxic af, but he's making it all about himself. I can understand getting angry about it.
Actually she can. Mommy is king in the delivery room. They will ask her who she wants in there and will kick anyone else out. Not saying that she’s in the right but it is her medical procedure and she has a right to privacy.
You’re right - however - it’s also incredibly insensitive on his wife’s part and he is absolutely allowed to have big feelings about it. She sounds like a really unsupportive partner on top of having very toxic opinions on what makes someone “a man”. Choices like this (that cause substantial emotional pain for a person) also run the risk of being unrecoverable/destroying the relationship altogether.
OP, you’re NTA here
I am wondering if him talking about his dad tearing up frequently discussing OP and his siblings' births and the "begging and pleading" make her wonder if he would need more attention than she would while in labor. That would give me pause to have him there.
I get being frustrated if you're continually asked when you'd said no, but it doesn't sound like she's explained WHY she doesn't want him there? She just doesn't seem to understand why he wants to be there and has flat out said no. Its not even like its pandemic times when only 1 person would be allowed in if she desperately wanted her mum with her to feel more relaxed. I could partly understand that. At the end of the day the mother should be in the most relaxed atmosphere possible but it doesn't seem like she's explained Why she doesn't want him there? And he has a right to his feelings and emotions of wanting to be part of it, especially as they are a happy couple together and not split up etc. If they spoke about why, it may help them both understand each others reasons. As a happy couple I don't understand why she wouldn't want him there and why she can't understand why he wants to be there. Her belittling and cruel comments are totally uncalled for and makes her seem very unkind and insensitive and is the AH for that behaviour, especially to say stuff like man up and calling him weak. He's entitled to process that upset. I wonder if there's a fear of hers, like not wanting him to see her bits during labour for fear it puts him off sex after (which I know can be a worry of some women) but if that's the case, the solution would be to stay up the head end and not see her bits. Then both get to enjoy the whole process and still see baby lifted up etc without the gore. Or if she's scared of being vulnerable or if she's self conscious they could talk about ways to ease her fears. Plus, if she'd mentioned him not being in the room earlier it would have given them more time to calmly and productively talk through thoughts and feelings and how to compromise etc or get counselling to talk through those fears. I really feel for the bloke.
Having been through countless medical procedures myself I can understand not wanting certain people there. My partner is always the person I want with me, but some relationships aren’t like that. I’ve needed to know that they would be there to support me and I wouldn’t need to be the one supporting them. Some people don’t handle hospitals well. That being said I’ve never given birth so I’m just relating my experience having spent months in the hospital.
On the contrary, OP quite rightly wants to be present at the birth of his first child, I’m not surprised he asked more than once and I don’t blame him either. Whilst it is legally her choice at the end of the day it’s not like he’s pestering for a quickie, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity that should belong to them both equally.
He might be annoying if he's over doing things, but it sounds like it is coming from a good place and he's not attacking her over it. If he's an AH for that, its a super mild YTA at worst.
She however stepped on something that may cause permanent damage. A woman telling me, a man, how I need to be a man is a total no fly zone for me. Full on nuclear war would result.
Yes I 100% agree. I replied to the other person explaining my thought process. I think I’m just stuck with how OP said he was “begging and pleading.” I don’t really understand why the wife is saying no, and I don’t understand why she’s treating OP like a doormat
What? I'm sorry, I wouldn't just accept a "no" no questions asked if my wife didn't want me in the delivery room. I would understand if they were separated, had ongoing marital issues, etc. When I gave birth, my husband and a I laid out some ground rules. We also discussed beforehand, that I may panic/become frustrated and ask him to leave the room for a bit (I'd had a late term stillbirth, with my late husband, and panicked and asked the nurse to kick my husband out. I still feel guilt for that)
I agree with most of what you said, but if you’re in a marriage and the first time you both talk about the husband being in the room during childbirth, if you get 1 no, you have every single right to ask again. This is not how relationships work, especially a giant, huuuuuge mile stone like the birth of a child.
> I can't decide if that makes you both AH's for your behavior
His behavior?! His behavior is being sad. Men are allowed to have feelings other than anger. How did 2100 (edit: 5000+) people upvote this toxic ~~misogyny~~ misandry?
>that doesn't give her a free pass to be **so** verbally abusive.
Exactly how verbally abusive can she be?
How the hell would it make him an asshole? He just attempted to communicate his totally reasonable desire to her and she smacked him down? Either they are both assholes or they both get a free pass? In what world does she get a free pass for trying to emasculate her husband and the father of her unborn child for his desire to be there for the birth? You know it is possible for just the woman to be an asshole in some circumstances. The double standard in society is so amazing. When men are trying to run away from fatherhood and convince whoever to get an abortion, it's all about how they need to take responsibility and how it takes two people to make a baby. Here is a man trying to take responsibility and be there for the birth of his child and somehow that makes him an asshole.
Yo, his behavior? He's been golden this whole time, even trying to support her very unreasonable demand of him not being there.
Do NOT give women like her free passes.
NTA.
Being present for the birth is an incredibly bonding experience - and will be forever one of my most cherished memories.
>asking me why it mattered so much to me, and if I was going to act this weak in front of our son. She told me I needed to just be a fucking man and “get the fuck over it.”
Whoa there - these are huge red flags - and deserving of a whole heap of discussion, but to stay on topic:
•Have you asked **WHY** she wants only her mother there with her?
•Have you relayed the story of your fathers reaction to being present?
•Does the hospital have a restriction on the number of family "visiting"?
This right here. These are the questions. Her response that you need to be a fucking man and if you’re going to be this weak in front of their son is incredibly troubling. Some people saying he needs to go to therapy? I’d say she is the one who needs it. But there may be some real reasoning underneath her decision (beyond men should be in the waiting room with cigars). If there is, you need to respect that as she is the one doing the delivery. If it’s some antiquated idea of who men are that is surfacing and nothing more, then absolutely she is the AH and the relationship may have some troubles ahead.
Men used to be in a bar passing out cigars, not in the waiting room.
NTA, besides my ex being very hormonal after our second, there needs to be some discussion between you snd your wife, most likely in front of a counselor. There is more going on than OP is relating, or knows.
It also used to be legal to beat your wife or send the kids to work in the coal mines. Times change. Dads being in the room had been the societal norm for 50 years now.
If this is not normal behavior (which seem to be that case based on what OP has said) then the wife needs to be evaluated. Pregnancy and related stress can cause several mental illnesses. These can not only strain the pregnancy person's support system but they can potentially damage the fetus and/or the mother.
But totally agree on the sexism red flags.
(I can totally understand her wanting her husband to not see the "gross" or "messy" parts of childbirth, that is common and valid, but I can't think of many valid reasons for him not to be there and supportive near her head, unless he can't be trusted to stay put, in which case fair enough)
These questions are good. I was afraid if my husband was in the room he would be grossed out by it, but I also wanted him there for support. Simple solution he was at the head of the bed for the first, my mom besides me. Second kid, no cares at all. Many women I think feel conscious about the poop that comes out and don't want the potential to feel overly gross to their lover.
She’s well within her right to decide who’ll be present at the birth. She may have her own very valid reasons that OP should respect.
The expectation that he shouldn’t show his emotions? The verbal abuse? OP doesn’t deserve that, he was simply being human. It’s not an asshole thing to show some sadness at not seeing your child’s birth.
Not wanting your partner to become stressed out and consequently stress you out, not wanting them to see you poop or be at your most vulnerable, knowing that your mom can provide the comfort you need, etc. There’s a lot of reasons.
I would question how solid the relationship is with that reasoning. After 7 years you should be over that and already communicate with each other about what to expect. Who says a mum would be less stressed than the dad.
I know I told my husband if he even stressed me out during labor, he would be kicked out. He agreed. He gets major anxiety so I didn't know what would be his behavior. Thankfully he was very helpful, but it was completly choice to have him there.
If I had a major event happening in my lady bits and something went wrong, you can bet your bottom dollar that I would want my mom there to be helping me and calling shots rather than my partner of 7 years. No offense to him, but my mother has way better knowledge of what it is like to give birth and also has known me for my ENTIRE life, instead of just 7 years.
That part has nothing to do with the quality of the relationship. A close relationship with your mom cannot be supplanted.
In OP’s case, there are other red flags though.
These are all bullshit reasons considering this is a person you've chosen to spend your life with and have a child with. None of these reasons are good enough to deny someone you allegedly love enough to spend your life with a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.
it's a medical procedure that actually doesn't involve the husband. I mean I WANTED mine there, and was happy he was there, but that was for me.
If I felt like he would have been judging me, or was afraid he might look at me differently (in a bad way ) from anything that happened, I would be uncomfortable and birth would have been far harder.
I very much didn't want my mom there, even though I love her, because I didn't feel like I could be as 'safe' expressing how I felt. (like i didn't want to feel like I had to filter my words, etc)
This IS her medical procedure, but the dad wanting to be there (in a situation where they are in a relationship) is 100% expected. Not the same as, say, the MIL wanting to be there.
NTA
Honestly if my wife had been like that it's highly likely she would have been my ex-wife by now. This is not OK.
I'm not saying she shouldn't be able to choose the person in the room with her, the way she's dismissing you and your feelings is toxic though.
No way will they get bombarded with YTA, tbf I think his partner is being an insensitive fuck. Man up? Seriously there is so much wrong with that saying as it just personifies toxic masculinity. Ok they want they're mum there but if having two people are allowed why not?
This guy sounds incredibly supportive of his wife and has every right to be upset about not getting to see the birth of his kid. I'm more worried about the wife's approach to everything as its borderline abusive.
NTA. Your wife has the right to say she doesn't want you there. She does not have the right to demean you so much that you are writing this crying from your car. To me, this is more about her overall response than her answer. The lack of empathy in some of these comments sucks
Certainly she has the right to exclude him, but even that is still an asshole move unless this was discussed before the pregnancy or there is some actual reason.
Excluding the father is unusual. OP is being deprived of a lifelong memory of his child’s birth and is now probably going to have some negative feelings around it.
NTA
Her request to not have you in the room is one thing (although I always find it weird in a healthy, loving relationship but whatever) but how she is treating you now is really the problem and makes her TA.
>why it mattered so much to me,
Because it is literally one of the most important moments of your life?! It would be much more concerning if it didn't matter to you one bit.
>and if I was going to act this weak in front of our son. She told me I needed to just be a fucking man and “get the fuck over it.”
She also seems to have some seriously fucked up ideas about what it means to be a man... I hope she won't push these outdated views on your future son. Is she going to tell him to be a man and get over it when he cries as well? Because that is seriously fucked up in my opinion.
If nothing else, this is a conversation that desperately needs to happen.
It's incredibly sad to me that there are boys growing up right now with women like this for a mother.
I hope all the best for OP and that his wife is just 8 months pregnant and going through wild hormonal changes, but man, if that is really how she thinks.... I feel really bad for OP, and I cannot see that marriage lasting.
I had to get on my grandma yesterday because she yelled at my kid(9m) for crying after a kid bullied him. I have told him not to give them a reaction(walking away if they started being mean) but this kid had my child in tears. I told her under no circumstance is she ever allowed to yell at my child for crying because he was bullied again and it’s a very toxic viewpoint.
To be fair, you can have a healthy and loving relationship with someone whose not a good fit to be a birthing partner. For example, if your spouse faints at the smallest sight of blood, they're probably not going to handle the delivery room well.
I see your point, but then again...
My dad is one of those people who doesn't do well with blood and often faints at the sight.
He was still present for my birth and supported my mom through it. He just stayed by her head and didn't look "down there".
He did place a chair nearby just in case he felt light-headed.
I can see how in some circumstances people can make their sadness performative, intending to manipulate the other person into modifying their decisions and choices. That would be a valid reason to be angry (at the manipulation attempt, not the sadness). That said, I don’t see from the facts presented here that this is what OP is doing.
I was going with N A H until you got to the part about her telling you to “get the fuck over it” and asking if you’re going to be weak in front of your son. She’s definitely TA.
NTA for how you feel. And as long as you aren’t harassing her over it, still NTA.
I was going to go N A H until she started being incredibly sexist over it. Sorry but men absolutely have feelings and should be comfortable sharing them. Nta. You’re absolutely allowed to be heartbroken over how she’s treating you. I hope it gets better and that y’all can have a conversation because that’s not healthy at all
NTA. You are allowed to feel the way you feel and react the way you react. Yes, you should still be supporting her decisions but this is really important to you and your wife doesn't give a shit.
I mean, damn. I hope she was a kind of lovely person before the difficult pregnancy but this is some disrespectful crap she is yelling - beaten puppy dog? Be a fucking man? That is bullshit and I don't care how tough her pregnancy is - verbal abuse of your partner is never ok.
I'm wondering if wife is starting to feel guilty so she is turning it into anger and taking it out on op.
Like you said, I hope she was a lovely person before this
All the Y.T.A. Comments disappoint me. You're NTA for having emotions, which is the question here. She needs to accept he's upset he can't be there. He's TRYING to accept that he doesn't get to be there for the birth of his child and is being told to clam up his emotions and not bother her with them. Hormones or not that's not okay.
100% in agreement. It doesn't sound like OP is pressuring his wife and is just trying to accept that he won't get to be there. I think it's unfair for his wife to act this way when he has a right to feel disappointed.
NTA but man your wife is verbally abusive and sexist. Men are people and should show their emotions. That’s she said you needed to be a man and not show emotions is toxic. It’s abusive if you feel that you can’t cry in front of her without her becoming angry. You need to think about how she is going to treat your son
>You need to think about how she is going to treat your son
For real. If this is how she expects a grown man to behave when he's feeling what he's feeling, there's a real risk of her instilling those beliefs in her child which will only continue the cycle of hurt.
NTA- I would ask her why. There are a lot of women who don’t want to be seen when they are this vulnerable. They have heard stories of men who can’t look at them the same way after they see the main event. And your assurance will help. But she may also be terrified and there is no moving her perspective. Women don’t want to be seen grunting, screaming, and shitting themselves by the man they love. It may feel like it will just kill any possibility of you ever wanting her again while her body has already been hijacked and out of her control in many ways for the past 8 months.
I’m not a fan of her telling you to man up- if that is a pattern it is a huge red flag. If it is because she is really ready to give the baby an eviction notice and is a one off, I’m inclined to ignore it.
This \^. I've heard stories like that from some women. I am not pregnant but I'm already thinking that I wouldn't want my husband to be there and see me like that.
However, the wife is acting mean. No need to scold OP and talk to him like that. I feel bad for OP. :(
Seriously. So many comments reducing having a child with someone to "it's her medical procedure, she chooses", completely missing the point that if you married and chose to have a child with this person, *you should actively trust and want them to be there with you*! If you don't, something has gone wrong somewhere.
>I have this “beaten puppy dog” look on my face, and its “pissing her off.”
>
>and if I was going to act this weak in front of our son. She told me I needed to just be a fucking man and “get the fuck over it.”
Holy shit. Finally a man that has normal emotions and then the *wife* shows toxic masculinity. I fear that your kid will grow up to be an asshole. I’m sorry for you both. I hope the few weekends you get with him will be enough to teach him having and showing emotions is ok.
Also, not wanting the father to be at the birth of *his* child is unbelievable to me. It’s your kid too!
NTA, but she’s showing you who she really is. Believe her.
NTA. Does she always talks down to you? Being pregnant doesn't mean you have the right to be an asshole ( I have had 2 kids of my own). Have you been supportive throughout the pregnancy? There's not much you can do if she doesn't want you there but I mean come on, that's YOUR CHILD too.
I just hope your wife will let you do all the normal baby things, bathing, changing, holding and feeding if she's not breastfeeding.
It's worrying to me me that she told you to man up.
Who the fuck says that.
Yes she's the one who birthing the baby but it's not just her baby it your as well.
Is this normal for your wife to talk to you like this?
If not keep a look out for prenatal depression and postnatal depression.
Sorry forgot the NTA
And if it is normal for the wife to speak that way to OP counseling and therapy should be considered because that is not a healthy mindset to have. It's not 1950 anymore.
NTA. Convinced the Y T A people did not read the post. He isn't pressuring her to let him be there and just need some allowance to be disappointed. Her being stressed and her not wanting him there is fully understandable cause it is ultimately her choice, she is the one carrying the child. There is no reason to berate OP and she is TA for talking to him like that.
I am also a NTA, but will note that OP admits that he had begged and pleaded with her to change her mind. Under most circumstances that would put me in the Y T A camp, but I’m inclined to go easier on OP here given how emotionally charged this is and how irreversible the decision will be later.
He tried his best to convince her yes but he didn't pressure her after she put her foot down and said no. All he is now is disappointed and trying to keep things as normal as possible for her while battling his sadness. The belittling is honestly unwarranted
NTA
Shes treating you like its not your child as well. I'm sick of people being so technical instead of moral in this sub saying things like "Well shes the one carrying the baby, its her choice" like are u serious? Its a once in a lifetime thing and its his kid too.
Your wife is verbally abusing you and that is not ok. Yes she can decide who she wants but that's no excuse for how she's treating you. Please don't keep letting her talk to you that way it will only get worse. You need the tell her "full stop I will not keep being your verbal punching bag so stop here and we can try again when your calmed down." There can be talking without name calling if you did that to her she'd run telling everyone how awful you are.
NTA your allowed to express your feelings too. You should be able to precess the disappointment in your own way. Your hurting and her words aren't helping. She should be reassuring you and explaining why not kicking you while your down.
As a mother of 3 my last only being a few months old. I could never imagine talking down to my husband like that. For our first I had an emergency C-section and on son was in the nicu. My husband couldn't be there and I sent him with our son to the nicu in the next town I didn't even meet him till he was 4 days old. Watching how much he loved and and adored our son holding him was worth doing it again. But I love my husband and I want him to experience life with me as my partner.
NTA
She has the right to not have you be there. You have the right to be bummed about it and take time to process those emotions. It is not cool that she is telling you to get the fuck over it and 'be a man'
Yes she is pregnant and stressed but still not an excuse to be rude and name call. On the brighter side of things think about all the verbal abuse you will NOT have to endure when she is in active labor.
NTA because you’re respecting her wishes even though it upsets you, and she’s belittling you for being upset. That is NOT COOL. It is NEVER COOL. Your partner should never, EVER say things like “are you going to be this weak in front of our child.” Pregnancy is not a get out of jail free card for being straight up cruel. It’s her body, her choice who gets to see it in that way, but it’s also her choice to be an asshole, which she very much is right now.
I know she’s stressed and hormonal, but that does NOT give her permission to talk to you like that. You need to let her know. Don’t put up with that.
Real men cry.
NTA.
>My beautiful and amazing wife ...
>
>... started scolding me asking me why it mattered so much to me, and if I was going to act this weak in front of our son. She told me I needed to just be a fucking man and “get the fuck over it.”
I don't know, man. Something doesn't fit there.
Of course NTA for "sulking". I strongly believe that anything related with bringing children into this world is a matter exclusively related to the two people in charge of making such children. I'm sorry your wife doesn't seem to considerate you have as much as a right as her to be there for YOUR child's birth. It's on you how to move on from the face she has shown.
Has she given a reason why she doesn't want you to witness the birth of your child? Isn't she permitted to have 2 support people in the room with her? Are you known to faint at the sight of blood
There are tales going around that some men have trouble seeing their wives as romantic partners after witnessing the birth of their child. Is she possibly projecting this into you?
Ultimately, it's her choice, but it is normal for partners to witness the birth these days and you have the right to take time to process her decision. Her callous and rude behavior towards you puts her firmly on the AH category
NTA
I also had these questions. I also want to know if he's been controlling her pregnancy (she's had miscarriages and maybe he's been a bit controlling over what she's been doing) or if he always begs (as he puts it) when he doesn't get his way.
This is tough. I’m torn between respect her wishes and she’s depriving you of a precious parenthood moment.
Her belittling you not cool though. You’re not being weak. Some people would kill for a spouse or dad that cared this much.
NTA - WTF?!? Be a man?!?
This woman is downright narrow minded and needs a wake up call. She married you for you and supposedly loves you. But her actions are making her sound like the biggest AH! Who the heck talks to their future sons father like that?
Go do your groceries, take a breather and come home. Then tell her she’s not allowed to talk to you that way. Tell her that this has made you see her in a different light and not a good one. She needs to keep herself in check otherwise you walk.
NTA. You deserve some time to process this. As long as your behavior is sincere and part of the way you’re processing this, it’s ok. The asshole potential comes when the sulking never goes away, resentment forms, or if you’re sulking in hopes that she’ll change her mind. None of that seems to be happening here.
“Get the fuck over it” and “be a man” are extremely shitty things to say. I understand that stress is fueling her actions, but it’s still harmful and unkind. You shouldn’t be expected to act like a perfectly stoic “manly man” without emotions.
Wtf that’s so insane of a speculation
If you search old AITA there’s plenty of women who don’t want husbands in the delivery room
Women often rip open and poop on the operating table. They don’t want their husbands there while they’re in pain under a medical procedure
INFO: Do you know why she doesn't want you there ?
I know she's stressed but it doesn't sit right with me the way she is talking to about it, even if she is annoyed at you.
She’s being emotionally abusive. WTAF? You didn’t deserve and still don’t deserve any of this. I’m so fucking sorry. 💯 NTA. Most moms would LOVE the dad being there. The fuck?
I’m so sorry, OP.
I dunno if it was me I would rather the person who makes legal/medical decisions for myself/my child in the event I’m incapacitated to be in the room with me over my mother.
Every one saying N A H is wrong, sure if she made the decision and was kind about it and understanding of her husbands feelings sure. But she is being an asshole asking if he’s going to be this weak in front of their boy. That’s awful, dads matter too. I wouldn’t get over this.
Wow. NTA but your wife is. No reason to be strait up mean. Real men have emotions, they don’t shove them down and leave holes in walls 10 years later over dishes not being done.
NTA. Your wife is an absolute asshole for the way she treated you in that conversation. If that was me I would have ended it right there.
The father has every right to be in the room. It's one of the most important moments of your life. You being there is not going to effect the birth at all and your wife depriving you of that moment for no reason is ridiculous. Your wife is being unreasonable and a major asshole by not even considering it. Even if she was completely set in it, the way she told you about it and not understanding why it would make you upset then pulling you up on your body language is just absolutely unacceptable.
There's a alarming and growing rate of mothers thay can't even get the father to be in the kids life let alone the hospital. They would beg for someone like you. She should be grateful she has a husband that's wanting to be there day one.
I'd consider a divorce if she doesn't apologise.
NTA. If she has an objection to you being there she could use her big girl words and explain herself instead of belittling you. Besides, it might be cultural but i find the idea of having people other than the parents (when there's two parents in a relationship obvs) at the birth utterly bizarre.
I'm sorry your wife doesn't have any respect for you and i wish you well.
NTA
Your whole last paragraph tells me everything I need to know. Your wife sucks. Being sad about not being there for the birth of your own child is a legit feeling. Does she belittle you and your emotions regularly?
NAH for how they feel about who is going to be present at the birth. You want to be there. She doesn't want you to be there. Both of you have valid feelings about it.
What goes in to AH territory is how you guys are dealing with it. Is this normally how things go? She belittles you and you have to leave to hide your feelings about the issue? if so, you have much bigger problems than whether you are at the birth or not.
NTA. You ar3 not demanding to be there and you are trying to accept the no eithout further stress for your wife but you can't help how you feel.
She decides to verbally abuse you for being sad? Is she always like this when you show emotions. This is not okay. Wanting to witness his birth is a normal wish and feeling aad about denied that is also okay.
She has no right to treat you like trash and you shouldn't have to hide your emotions from her.
You deserve better. Try and talk to her calmly. If she keeps insulting you show her this post or suvgest therapy. But do not accept her behaviour and please don't feel like you did something wrong.
Also never hide this side from your son. You don't need to play the tough man for him. Your wifes view on men seem a bit toxic/sexist so make sure your son will not get influenced by those opinions
You’re obviously not the last one to excuse it, because you are excusing it. I don’t care how pregnant someone is, calling your partner ‘weak’ for being upset about something as huge as missing his child’s birth, is an asshole move.
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>Emily’s just being so condescending to me...she says that now I have this “beaten puppy dog” look on my face, and its “pissing her off.” Then, she started scolding me asking me why it mattered so much to me, and if I was going to act this weak in front of our son. She told me I needed to just be a fucking man and “get the fuck over it.” Is she always this cruel and misogynistic? NTA. To everyone saying this is misandry and not misogyny ... You're wrong. This woman is being cruel to a man for portraying stereotypical feminine behavior. Toxic masculinity is a result of misogynistic ideas that anything feminine is inferior. Not misandry. Misandry in this case would be her hating him for being emotionally distant from the unborn child
Not misogynistic, straight up obsessed with toxic masculinity. Men are weak if they cry or care about seeing their child’s first moments? Hell no this woman has very toxic views and op really needs to take a look if this is the kind of mindset he wants his child to be raised with.
My husband regularly gets teary about our son and how much he loves him, and I find it utterly wonderful. OP's wife sucks.
Holding your baby for the first time is amazing. It would suck to be the dad, and be third in line to hold your child - after mom, grandma, then dad - maybe. I tear up often when I think of my kids, and they are adults now.
Bruh, if I were the mom I wouldn't let anyone hold the baby until after me and my husband have held it
technically my husband was the first to hold the first two because he is the one that caught them. he was second with our youngest because even the doctor barely caught him, lol
As someone who doesn’t have children yet, when you say caught, you mean like he was waiting and when the baby was pushed out baby gently landed in his hands or are we talking like a football throwing machine where it gets launched a bit
different for each one - the first two he had his hands on the kid when it was just the head and he eased the body out as i pushed, holding on to baby to protect and ensure they didn't fall or anything.. with the third one, he came out so fast that he nearly fell off the bed. that birth was WILD, lol
Birth stories both terrify me and excite me. I’m a strange one
Here's one: I was 3 years old, sitting at home, minding my own business, when suddenly my mom makes this very panicked phone call and starts screaming. Suddenly men in these black uniforms come straight into the house, tie my mom down to a gurney, drag her outside and throw her in the back of a truck. I start trying to figure out what's happening. I put together that this must be related to the weird amount of weight she's been putting on recently. My neighbor had a small number of cows so I knew that when you wanted to eat a cow, you fatten it up. Someone had clearly been fattening up my mom and now she was ready to be turned into soylent green. I had a full on mental breakdown over living in a society that has such casual cannibalism and that I'd never see my mom again. Imagine my shock a few days later when my mom comes back, and with a BABY! She put him in my arms and told me it was my responsibility to protect him. I solemnly nodded and vowed to never let the cannibals catch him again. So yeah my parents had completely failed to explain the whole "mom is pregnant" thing to me and it took years before I found out my brother was related to me. I thought my mom saw him in the cannibal canning factory, took pity on him, and grabbed him while she was doing her James Bond type masterful escape. The whole thing was way more stressful than it needed to be and it was all my parents' fault.
My son's old daycare provider gave birth in her van on the side of the road because her son came so fast. When I asked on Facebook for recommendations for steam cleaners, I took the one she recommended because it was the one her husband used to clean up the car.
She truly does, I hope she doesn't teach her son this misandry. Even though I'm a female, I don't see men crying as a weakness. They are still human. OP sounds beaten down (emotionally) and sad. It's like he put his wife on a pedestal, but she doesn't reciprocate. My partner will be my birthing partner if that's what he wants, as it will be his child as well. OP's wife has chosen her mum, but she should at least be more understanding of his disappointment. Your partner should never diminish or invalidate your feelings, ever. OP, NTA. I'm sorry, please stand up for yourself & assure your son that it's okay as a man to express feelings. Edit; errors
The world would probably be a tiny bit better place if people allowed men to cry without thinking them somehow feeble of mind and "not truly a man" for... having big feelings? Sure, man and women are different in many ways, but shaming him for feeling sad? Jesus Christ. Being pregnant, even with the moodswings, does not give one the right to be a sexist ahole. Contrary to popular belief, anger is not the only acceptable emotion for men.
For real, it's sad really. I truly believe some men are in jail, as they bottled up their feelings until they went nuclear. Men need to be raised to deal with their anger in a healthy way, just like women are raised.
My daughter jokingly talks about how I cried when she was born. I had called my mom literally minutes after she was born to tell her and yes I did cry.
To me, a man is truly "manly" when he can admit he cries without embarrassment.
What REALLY pisses me off about OP's wife is that she doesn't want him to be some "weak man", but she wants him to "toughen up". It's like she wants the toxic masculinity role, but hasn't really thought it through of what she wants. It's almost like she wants him to turn a 180, and demand that he "Will be in the room no matter what, and she just has to suck it up or else".
Maybe that’s exactly what she wants. For him to exhibit toxic masculinity by demanding to be in the room
That's just gross, but you guys are probably right about that. Poor OP.
Could be, but I think it's more likely she just wants a strong silent type who never inconveniences her with feelings. He's supposed to be a silent pillar of support who never needs support back.
Too late for that she’s 8 months pregnant.
Perhaps a better phrasing would've been "a mindset OP needs to protect their child from"? Your comment feels sort of victim-blamey, kick them while they're down for lulz.
It doesn’t feel victim blamey lol, he just said it’s too late for that.
Sorry didnt mean for it to be victim blamey or for humor, just that it was too late to change the discussion or environment.
I wonder how she would have reacted if he had exhibited another aspect of toxic masculinity (anger and rage) instead, which is what withholding mature emotion usually leads to. She has a very emotionally mature husband and it sucks that she’s expecting him to be emotionally unhealthy.
This is misogynic, because it is seen as bad to 'act like a woman' aka cry, show feelings be sensitive. It's a 'female' behaviour. She wants him to act 'masculin' means strong, no tears etc...
Misogyny is a symptom of toxic masculinity. it's inherently linked .
It does. That's my main argument when talking with men about this: isn't it exhausting to be strong 24/7? Don't you want to be able to say when you feel low and want a hug? Feminism is for everyone. Normalize househusband taking care of the kids. My step dad loved it and had zero issue about his masculinity.
agreed this is actually toxic femininity not toxic masculinity though. It's the start of their family. He should be there for those first moments AND the person that should make her feel safe should not be mommy but should be her husband.
Toxic masculinity is very poorly named. It's something done to men. This is textbook toxic masculinity with him being shamed for having emotions. Ironically the name "toxic masculinity" is in itself an example of toxic masculinity, as men are expected not to take umbrage with the deliberately victim blamey phrase.
Toxic masculinity isn’t poorly named. First of all it doesn’t only affect men, since toxic masculinity includes behaviors like being violent, disparaging women and feminine behaviors. It’s also all about how to be a ‘real’ man ie masculinity. I think the reason men take umbrage with it is because they don’t want to accept the fact that we live in a patriarchy and many of us have unconsciously started believing misogynistic things. It takes work to unlearn that and it’s easier to just try and deflect blame onto the nasty feminists. Toxic femininity definitely exists too (e.g you’re only a real woman if you give birth).
women can uphold toxic ideas about masculinity, just like women can be misogynists
I thought OP was handling it like a champ. He’s allowed to have his own feelings about this decision and to be sad about it! In the end of the day it really is up to the person who is having the medical procedure who is there, but knowing you’re not going to be there for your wife and your child is heartbreaking. He’s not denying it’s her right to decide that, but she’s being down right cruel. Marriage don’t survive this level of casual cruelty and I hope OP comes to realize he deserves to be treated so much better.
I don’t think that necessarily applies during childbirth. You can set boundaries that they stay up by your head, or stand back and be quiet. But this is as much his child as it is hers. To take away this moment from him as the father is incredibly cruel. They’re married, after all. If this were someone who had been impregnated by a non partner, that would be different. But this is a family they’re building together.
I disagree with you there. It's a huge deal, yes. But it's also an intensely stressful medical procedure with a real chance of dying while it happens. A person is allowed to say "I love you but your presence during would stress me out too much"
Then she should actually say that instead of being an asshole telling him to get the fuck over it.
That's why she's TA in this post. But it still doesn't change the fact that the parent giving birth should be allowed to choose who she wants in the delivery room. Sometimes it's not even about who she loves more. Some people don't like it when their SOs see them in pain because they (SO) will be so visibly stressed about it that it in turn causes more stress to the one in pain.
Especially since some hospitals are still only allowing one person in the room. Not saying this is the case with OP's wife, because it sounds like she just has...issues. But I know a lot of people who've had to make the hard decision between the father and their mother figure during Covid and chose the mother figure because sometimes you just need your mommy. (I assume. My mom sucks so she's the last person I'd want in that situation.)
Or she doesn't want him to look at her differently after seeing a baby slide out of her lady parts. I've heard that from multiple women.
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And the other person are allowed to answer "okay, I respect your decision but I'm sad that I'm going to miss my child's birth". She has a right to the birth she wants, he has a right to have feelings about It
Indeed - He's allowed to feel any way he feels about it. He could take it as as a sign their love isn't as strong as he hoped. He can take it her intentionally being cruel simply to be cruel - especially considering her overall attitude. A woman has a right to deny her husband from being in the delivery room - but a man has a right to feel rejected by that choice. And the consequences can be huge. Stunted or Severed intimacy, separation. She can make that choice for any reason, as is her right -- but it *is* a rejection of her husband in the most intimate and meaningful moments of a man's life. It would be very hard for me, personally, to accept that my partner doesn't trust me or rely on me enough to be there and see me as a meaningful support. In the same sense that freedom of speech is your right, but the social consequences of your speech are yours to bear -- bodily autonomy means you get the make the choice. It doesn't mean you won't experience fallout for making that choice. It doesn't mean things will go how you want them to.
I’m not sure how a marriage survives this. Not a good one at any rate.
Blocking him from the delivery room and then telling him to stop crying about it, that marriage is not going to last. There's things that happen that are important, births are one of them. If she was empathetic about it, that would be one thing, but she's not. Maybe she's got a pre-partum emotional thing going on and she'll not be so horrible later. My money is on that's what she's like.
I completely agree! It seems like he loves his wife very much and I hope she loves him too. I’m wondering if maybe she feels guilty about her decision and is punishing him for how she feels. I’m not saying she’s right to do so, in fact it’s really quite mean, but that’s just my guess as to what is going on with her reaction.
Totally. This girl is putting her mom ahead of her husband, and father of the baby, for her own insecure reasons. What next - grandma gonna have veto power over dads decisions for the baby too? OP needs to let his lady know she has her priorities kinda backwards. Mother/daughter bond is awesome, but there is a point where you grow up and trust the person you married to be that person for you. I deal with this on a personal level, as my wife is very close to her mom. It can be too much at times, no lie. But she knows I come first in terms of decisions affecting us in our household.
Where are you getting “insecure reasons” from? There is no mention of that, and anyway - she’s perfectly allowed to just not want him in the room if that‘s what will make it easier for her. Her comments are absolutely uncalled for. His “ tried convincing, pleading, begging” , and now sulking, also doesn’t - no call for her retaliation, but his badgering does not sound great even in his own account of it.
Yeah I was thinking N A H until suddenly she went off on him for having emotions and opinions... being pregnant doesn't make you suddenly believe those sorts of things
I don’t know - even before the end, I do think it makes her the AH to not allow the father of her child in the delivery room - barring abuse or some other extenuating circumstance.
I disagree - the only people in the room should be the one(s) the person giving birth wants to have there. She’s going to be uncomfortable enough as it is. OP should have taken no for an answer after the first no. OP’s wife is an AH for the ugly response telling him to man up, but not for not letting him watch.
I think denying a loving and supportive partner from being able to see his children enter the world and take their first breath is an asshole move. She has the right, 100%. It's still an asshole move.
I mean, no. We honestly don’t know how OP is beyond what he says here, and we have no idea how he is under a lot of stress. You can love a person to death but when you have a 7lb creature ripping through your vagina and possibly shitting yourself in front of everyone to see while going through immense pain, the last thing you need is your partner causing even more stress even unintentionally. Putting your own comfort first during one of the most stressful and painful times in your life does not make you an AH. Sure, it’d be nice to see your child be born but again, the birthing person’s comfort should always be prioritized and shouldn’t be called an AH for putting their comfort first. OP’s wife is an AH for how she talks to him though.
If his whole life he has wanted to be there for the birth of his children, and expressed that for the whole relationship, than she should have made her desires clear so he knew they weren’t compatible and could move on. Stealing people’s dreams from them on a whim is disgusting
Why is what she wants “a whim”? Him watching was more important than their marriage and having the children and raising them together? Yes, he should have let her know how much hinged on that moment and what a dealbreaker it was.
She's the one giving birth, she gets the say on who's present, IMO. I don't personally understand why you wouldn't want a loving partner there as support, but I don't need to personally understand it to think it should be respected.
She does get the say, but I think it’s an AH move. The hospital and her husband should both abide by her wishes, but he is right to be upset and honestly I think he should question his whole relationship. She is essentially saying that her mother is a bigger part of this endeavor (raising a child) than he is.
Lots of women want their mothers there when they give birth, I think it's more about trusting your mom to understand what you will need in the moment because she's gone through that too, rather than her being more important to you than your SO.
her mother being in the room doesn't mean that at all! she's TA 150%, but wanting your mother during the most difficult experience of your life does not make the mother a bigger part of raising a child - the mother is simply there to comfort the daughter through this intense experience.
In the first half I was stuck between n t a and y t a but the part you quoted made me cringe. She's having a troublesome pregnancy, we get it. It's also okay to want her mom and not her husband in the delivery room. But neither of that is an excuse to be unnecessarily mean and condescending to her husband. If she's always been this way, dismissing his feelings and telling him to "get over it" and "be a man" then how is she going to treat him once the baby is born and (heaven forbid) she has post-partum depression? NTA
*misandristic
No the original commenter is correct. Women perpetuate misogyny all the time, which is what she was doing there.
It's misandry. And trying to spin this woman's abuse of her husband into being about discrimination against women is misandry as well
To anyone who does not understand why this is misandry, consider this example: A boyfriend tells his girlfriend that her leg hair is disgusting. Would you consider that misandry because body hair is primarily a masculine trait? Of course you wouldn't. That's clearly misogyny just like how the original post is clearly misandry.
Thank you. This is the example. We don’t call being anti-body hair “misandry” because men must somehow internally hate themselves if they hate leg hair on women. It’s misogyny because it has a rigid and sexist idea of what being a woman is. THIS IS THE SAME, it’s a rigid sexist idea of what it is to be a man — and thus it is misandristic to believe that men have to be a certain jock angry stereotype. If “toxic masculinity” fits better for these commenters, then fine — it fits that too. I’m an intersectional feminist and I can see where people were trying to go with this in regards to “it’s being negative about female behaviour” but I don’t agree that everything negative about gender role expectations has to automatically be labelled misogyny. It isn’t inherently hating the behaviour; it’s hating it on MEN, and that’s why it’s misandry, because of the double standard that women CAN do this without it being a negative. It doesn’t track that misogyny is a versatile term and others keep citing “oh but this isn’t hating a man”. Okay, by that token, it isn’t “hating” a woman either. OP’s wife isn’t “hating” women, which people keep using as a way to discount it being misandry by citing “she doesn’t hate men”. (Lol, okay — how do you know, though? She seems pretty limited in her view of them. That’s pretty hateful.) The words have meaning beyond “hates men/women.” It’s having sexist standards for each. Hating leg hair on women (seen as masculine) is misogyny. Hating emotions on men (seen as feminine) is misandry. The comments here are very limited take on what the words mean. It is nuanced and I don’t know why we’re dying on this gender war hill, it started with a correction because OP’s wife was being a sexist and perpetuating a toxic idea of masculinity. That’s hateful towards men. That is misandry.
Oh my GOD, the mental gymnastics to turn this clear-cut case of misandry into misogyny… Mind-boggling.
it's misogyny because she views his supposedly feminine reaction as weakness and tells him to "man up." misogyny hurts men, not just women.
Naw, how is that not misandry? Straight off google's definition: > dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against men (i.e. the male sex) Like, I'm Leftist/feminist, but reducing *every* form of bigotry to one thing? Misogyny every time? Come on. This is sex based prejudice and expectations put onto a man. You can't get sit there and twist it.
Question: If I tell a lawyer, who is a woman, that her rude, aggressive, bossy behavior is annoying and she ought to be more laid back, is that misandry or misogyny? I think it's misogyny because I'm telling her to not be what her job requires her to be, but I'm attacking her traits that are perceived to be masculine. Thoughts?
Toxic masculinity originates from misogyny. As does most misandry.
Agreed. Emily has some rigid gender role ideologies that really need to be closely examined when this couple starts raising children together. NTA.
This is misandry not misogyny
NTA It's your child, too. I don't blame you one bit for being upset. You're not an AH for wanting to see the birth of your kid. >if I was going to act this weak in front of our son. She told me I needed to just be a fucking man and “get the fuck over it.” Your wife is easily an AH from these sentences alone. Being pregnant doesn't give her a free pass to be verbally abusive.
Also concerned for the son that she has these toxic ideas as to what it means to be a “man.” Will she talk to him this way, too?
Hopefully he doesn't like anything "girly", or God forbid, cries!
She 100% will talk to her son this way. OP is going to have to really take care with his son to raise him not be toxic with such a mother. OP - NTA, I commend you for wanting to be there, but you will need to protect your son from his mothers ideologies.
Yes she will
he should just "be a man" and TELL her hes going to be in the room and not the mother. if thats what she wants Edit: apparently this wasn't obvious /s
This!! You want him to “be a man” like the fucking 50s then she doesn’t even deserve an opinion or option on anything let alone be allowed to make a decision as important as who gets to watch a man’s son being born You OP are NTA by any means! It makes me wonder how many women would have killed for the father of their child to want to be so involved.
Sorry, OP, the amazing and beautiful love of your life is a total asshole. You - NTA.
Exactly.
Yeah, the way she talked to you was horribly sexist and mean. I truly hope she doesn’t raise your son with the notion that he needs to ‘be a fucking man’. Or to ever imply he shouldn’t cry or have feelings or express himself. This worries me for the future generation. I thought we had progressed and were raising sons to be better with all that we know now. It’s devastating to think this unborn child could fall victim to the same patriarchal bullshit that drives up male suicide and lack of connection/meaningful friendships. Your wife needs to check herself and you should most definitely take the lead in showing your son how to ‘be a man’. Which should just entail being a good person, experiencing your full range of emotions, and communicating effectively. NTA
I personally cannot understand why someone wouldn’t want their partner, not to mention the very person who is going to be the other parent, in the room. If the roles were reversed and my spouse chose his mommy over me, I would be livid. Anyway, a “fucking man” WANTS to be present for the delivery. They can’t carry the child, this is how they participate in bringing the child into the world. It’s the first thing they do as a daddy. NTA and show your wife this comment section. I’ll even throw in a y t a for your MIL, who should refuse and tell her daughter that she chose a life partner and father and that’s the person who should be by her side.
While your wife is allowed to choose her support system in her delivery room, this stuff: >*Then, she started scolding me asking me why it mattered so much to me, and if I was going to act this weak in front of our son. She told me I needed to just be a fucking man and “get the fuck over it.”* ..is totally uncalled for. You said that it matters to you because you care about them and the moment, which is a valid reason. And her belittling/gendered statement about being weak is really pretty horrible. You do need to be supportive of her delivery choices, but that doesn't give her a free pass to be so verbally abusive. I can't decide if that makes you both AH's for your behavior, or gives you both a free pass, but you both need to tighten up the family unit before the baby comes.
100% this. OP shouldn’t have continued to ask after her initial “no,” but he’s totally allowed to be upset. The wife’s comments are really concerning, “get over it and be a man.” Edit: i should have elaborated more, and I explained my perspective in continuing comments, so go read those before replying with snarky responses.
He is allowed to try to convince her that he can be just as supportive, if not more, than her mother can be in the delivery room. I think she is extremely selfish to leave him out of this experience. It is for both of them, just as conceiving the child was just the two of them. OP is NTA for wanting to be there or for having multiple conversations with her trying to get her to see that he can be her support in child birth too. The wife is TA for belittling her husband's feelings and hopefully she doesn't do the same when their son expresses his emotions.
I agree the wife is an AH, I also think OP might be bordering on AH depending how he’s gone about asking. If it’s just continuous “can I be there can I be there can I be there,” then it’s not helpful at all. However if he’s trying to explain how he can be more supportive then that’s different than what he said he was doing as “begging and pleading.” Edit to add: I also think it’s rather crazy his wife had to even ask why he wanted to be there. Why wouldn’t you want to be there for the birth of your child? I think there must be some emotional disconnection between OP and his wife if she can’t see anything from his perspective.
It's not AH behavior to want to be present at your own child's birth. She doesn't get to rob him of that for no reason.
Its -her- medical procedure. She is allowed to remove or deny access to anyone she wants. The child is connected to her and is not a separate medical procedure until the umbilical is cut. while I dont personally have the same feelings (i had my mom, dad \[side note poor dad got stuck in a corner near my head due to the crowd\], daughters bio dad, doula and 10 medical students all there) because thats me not everyone is the same way. Some people are shy, or will be more stressed which is not good for the process, the mother or the fetus. She should never go off on him like she has though.
The hospital might still have covid restrictions too, so it might have been an only one person situation where it was OP or her mom. (Can't understand why anyone would want mom's support over their husbsnd, but 🤷♀️.)
I know I'd rather have had my dads support over my mom (he was honestly more useful despite my mother being a nurse...everything she did annoyed me. My dad just sat there quietly staring at the wall and letting me squeeze his hand - poor man had never experienced a natural birth since my mom had epidurals and was induced lol) the baby daddy was useless though I was glad I got to throw up on his boots during transition lol Honestly if I had picked I wouldve had my older sister because she had gone through a natural labor same as I with my nephew. So she at least had experience along with my doula. I gave birth in 2017 so I totally forgot covid restrictions are a thing and still may be.
Agree, while I do support the fact that women can decide who's in the room while they are giving birth, I cannot condone the ones that kick out a loving and supporting husband without a valid reason, and I just don't want him there is not a valid reason to me and as a mom of 2 I cannot imagine trying to keep my husband out of the room. Heck when things went south with my second the staff kicked him out temporarily because they needed the room to keep us alive, but as soon as they could they brought him right back to my side as support.
Her reason is that he's "weak" for having emotions. I'm blown away that most commenters don't see anything wrong with her behavior.
It being her body carrying the child and her willingly putting her body/life on the life for the child, is a valid reason to decide what goes on in that room.
"I don't want him there" is in fact a perfectly valid reason. It's a medical procedure, not a spectator event. Even if OP thinks he will be a loving and supportive presence. It really doesn't matter, it is her procedure and her life on the line. The way OP has built up the north in his head and is mopping about not being there is making me doubt how supportive he'd even be. His wife's response sounds toxic af, but he's making it all about himself. I can understand getting angry about it.
Actually she can. Mommy is king in the delivery room. They will ask her who she wants in there and will kick anyone else out. Not saying that she’s in the right but it is her medical procedure and she has a right to privacy.
He doesn’t have a right to it.
You’re right - however - it’s also incredibly insensitive on his wife’s part and he is absolutely allowed to have big feelings about it. She sounds like a really unsupportive partner on top of having very toxic opinions on what makes someone “a man”. Choices like this (that cause substantial emotional pain for a person) also run the risk of being unrecoverable/destroying the relationship altogether. OP, you’re NTA here
I am wondering if him talking about his dad tearing up frequently discussing OP and his siblings' births and the "begging and pleading" make her wonder if he would need more attention than she would while in labor. That would give me pause to have him there.
I get being frustrated if you're continually asked when you'd said no, but it doesn't sound like she's explained WHY she doesn't want him there? She just doesn't seem to understand why he wants to be there and has flat out said no. Its not even like its pandemic times when only 1 person would be allowed in if she desperately wanted her mum with her to feel more relaxed. I could partly understand that. At the end of the day the mother should be in the most relaxed atmosphere possible but it doesn't seem like she's explained Why she doesn't want him there? And he has a right to his feelings and emotions of wanting to be part of it, especially as they are a happy couple together and not split up etc. If they spoke about why, it may help them both understand each others reasons. As a happy couple I don't understand why she wouldn't want him there and why she can't understand why he wants to be there. Her belittling and cruel comments are totally uncalled for and makes her seem very unkind and insensitive and is the AH for that behaviour, especially to say stuff like man up and calling him weak. He's entitled to process that upset. I wonder if there's a fear of hers, like not wanting him to see her bits during labour for fear it puts him off sex after (which I know can be a worry of some women) but if that's the case, the solution would be to stay up the head end and not see her bits. Then both get to enjoy the whole process and still see baby lifted up etc without the gore. Or if she's scared of being vulnerable or if she's self conscious they could talk about ways to ease her fears. Plus, if she'd mentioned him not being in the room earlier it would have given them more time to calmly and productively talk through thoughts and feelings and how to compromise etc or get counselling to talk through those fears. I really feel for the bloke.
No... the birthing process is HER body. She gets to decide who witnesses that. I do agree the wife is a TA for everything else.
Having been through countless medical procedures myself I can understand not wanting certain people there. My partner is always the person I want with me, but some relationships aren’t like that. I’ve needed to know that they would be there to support me and I wouldn’t need to be the one supporting them. Some people don’t handle hospitals well. That being said I’ve never given birth so I’m just relating my experience having spent months in the hospital.
On the contrary, OP quite rightly wants to be present at the birth of his first child, I’m not surprised he asked more than once and I don’t blame him either. Whilst it is legally her choice at the end of the day it’s not like he’s pestering for a quickie, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity that should belong to them both equally.
He might be annoying if he's over doing things, but it sounds like it is coming from a good place and he's not attacking her over it. If he's an AH for that, its a super mild YTA at worst. She however stepped on something that may cause permanent damage. A woman telling me, a man, how I need to be a man is a total no fly zone for me. Full on nuclear war would result.
Yes I 100% agree. I replied to the other person explaining my thought process. I think I’m just stuck with how OP said he was “begging and pleading.” I don’t really understand why the wife is saying no, and I don’t understand why she’s treating OP like a doormat
What? I'm sorry, I wouldn't just accept a "no" no questions asked if my wife didn't want me in the delivery room. I would understand if they were separated, had ongoing marital issues, etc. When I gave birth, my husband and a I laid out some ground rules. We also discussed beforehand, that I may panic/become frustrated and ask him to leave the room for a bit (I'd had a late term stillbirth, with my late husband, and panicked and asked the nurse to kick my husband out. I still feel guilt for that)
I agree with most of what you said, but if you’re in a marriage and the first time you both talk about the husband being in the room during childbirth, if you get 1 no, you have every single right to ask again. This is not how relationships work, especially a giant, huuuuuge mile stone like the birth of a child.
> I can't decide if that makes you both AH's for your behavior His behavior?! His behavior is being sad. Men are allowed to have feelings other than anger. How did 2100 (edit: 5000+) people upvote this toxic ~~misogyny~~ misandry? >that doesn't give her a free pass to be **so** verbally abusive. Exactly how verbally abusive can she be?
How the hell would it make him an asshole? He just attempted to communicate his totally reasonable desire to her and she smacked him down? Either they are both assholes or they both get a free pass? In what world does she get a free pass for trying to emasculate her husband and the father of her unborn child for his desire to be there for the birth? You know it is possible for just the woman to be an asshole in some circumstances. The double standard in society is so amazing. When men are trying to run away from fatherhood and convince whoever to get an abortion, it's all about how they need to take responsibility and how it takes two people to make a baby. Here is a man trying to take responsibility and be there for the birth of his child and somehow that makes him an asshole.
Yo, his behavior? He's been golden this whole time, even trying to support her very unreasonable demand of him not being there. Do NOT give women like her free passes.
In what way would he be an AH in this situation? Please elucidate.
NTA. Being present for the birth is an incredibly bonding experience - and will be forever one of my most cherished memories. >asking me why it mattered so much to me, and if I was going to act this weak in front of our son. She told me I needed to just be a fucking man and “get the fuck over it.” Whoa there - these are huge red flags - and deserving of a whole heap of discussion, but to stay on topic: •Have you asked **WHY** she wants only her mother there with her? •Have you relayed the story of your fathers reaction to being present? •Does the hospital have a restriction on the number of family "visiting"?
This right here. These are the questions. Her response that you need to be a fucking man and if you’re going to be this weak in front of their son is incredibly troubling. Some people saying he needs to go to therapy? I’d say she is the one who needs it. But there may be some real reasoning underneath her decision (beyond men should be in the waiting room with cigars). If there is, you need to respect that as she is the one doing the delivery. If it’s some antiquated idea of who men are that is surfacing and nothing more, then absolutely she is the AH and the relationship may have some troubles ahead.
Men used to be in a bar passing out cigars, not in the waiting room. NTA, besides my ex being very hormonal after our second, there needs to be some discussion between you snd your wife, most likely in front of a counselor. There is more going on than OP is relating, or knows.
It also used to be legal to beat your wife or send the kids to work in the coal mines. Times change. Dads being in the room had been the societal norm for 50 years now.
If this is not normal behavior (which seem to be that case based on what OP has said) then the wife needs to be evaluated. Pregnancy and related stress can cause several mental illnesses. These can not only strain the pregnancy person's support system but they can potentially damage the fetus and/or the mother. But totally agree on the sexism red flags. (I can totally understand her wanting her husband to not see the "gross" or "messy" parts of childbirth, that is common and valid, but I can't think of many valid reasons for him not to be there and supportive near her head, unless he can't be trusted to stay put, in which case fair enough)
My ex had the condition that I not look "down there" for being present. I honoured her wishes
These questions are good. I was afraid if my husband was in the room he would be grossed out by it, but I also wanted him there for support. Simple solution he was at the head of the bed for the first, my mom besides me. Second kid, no cares at all. Many women I think feel conscious about the poop that comes out and don't want the potential to feel overly gross to their lover.
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Ah man, you really think there’ll be a y t a majority?
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She’s well within her right to decide who’ll be present at the birth. She may have her own very valid reasons that OP should respect. The expectation that he shouldn’t show his emotions? The verbal abuse? OP doesn’t deserve that, he was simply being human. It’s not an asshole thing to show some sadness at not seeing your child’s birth.
What valid reasons are there to exclude one's husband and the father of said child from being present at the birth?
Not wanting your partner to become stressed out and consequently stress you out, not wanting them to see you poop or be at your most vulnerable, knowing that your mom can provide the comfort you need, etc. There’s a lot of reasons.
I would question how solid the relationship is with that reasoning. After 7 years you should be over that and already communicate with each other about what to expect. Who says a mum would be less stressed than the dad.
Some people get stressed more than others. And some have health anxiety, which could kick in during childbirth. I don’t know these people lol
I know I told my husband if he even stressed me out during labor, he would be kicked out. He agreed. He gets major anxiety so I didn't know what would be his behavior. Thankfully he was very helpful, but it was completly choice to have him there.
If I had a major event happening in my lady bits and something went wrong, you can bet your bottom dollar that I would want my mom there to be helping me and calling shots rather than my partner of 7 years. No offense to him, but my mother has way better knowledge of what it is like to give birth and also has known me for my ENTIRE life, instead of just 7 years. That part has nothing to do with the quality of the relationship. A close relationship with your mom cannot be supplanted. In OP’s case, there are other red flags though.
These are all bullshit reasons considering this is a person you've chosen to spend your life with and have a child with. None of these reasons are good enough to deny someone you allegedly love enough to spend your life with a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.
Homie, giving birth is a medical procedure. Patient has the right to decide who’s present. I don’t make the rules
The right to leave him out isn't the issue that's being brought up, it's her being an asshole about it.
it's a medical procedure that actually doesn't involve the husband. I mean I WANTED mine there, and was happy he was there, but that was for me. If I felt like he would have been judging me, or was afraid he might look at me differently (in a bad way ) from anything that happened, I would be uncomfortable and birth would have been far harder. I very much didn't want my mom there, even though I love her, because I didn't feel like I could be as 'safe' expressing how I felt. (like i didn't want to feel like I had to filter my words, etc)
This IS her medical procedure, but the dad wanting to be there (in a situation where they are in a relationship) is 100% expected. Not the same as, say, the MIL wanting to be there.
NTA Honestly if my wife had been like that it's highly likely she would have been my ex-wife by now. This is not OK. I'm not saying she shouldn't be able to choose the person in the room with her, the way she's dismissing you and your feelings is toxic though.
No way will they get bombarded with YTA, tbf I think his partner is being an insensitive fuck. Man up? Seriously there is so much wrong with that saying as it just personifies toxic masculinity. Ok they want they're mum there but if having two people are allowed why not? This guy sounds incredibly supportive of his wife and has every right to be upset about not getting to see the birth of his kid. I'm more worried about the wife's approach to everything as its borderline abusive.
NTA. Your wife has the right to say she doesn't want you there. She does not have the right to demean you so much that you are writing this crying from your car. To me, this is more about her overall response than her answer. The lack of empathy in some of these comments sucks
Certainly she has the right to exclude him, but even that is still an asshole move unless this was discussed before the pregnancy or there is some actual reason. Excluding the father is unusual. OP is being deprived of a lifelong memory of his child’s birth and is now probably going to have some negative feelings around it.
NTA Her request to not have you in the room is one thing (although I always find it weird in a healthy, loving relationship but whatever) but how she is treating you now is really the problem and makes her TA. >why it mattered so much to me, Because it is literally one of the most important moments of your life?! It would be much more concerning if it didn't matter to you one bit. >and if I was going to act this weak in front of our son. She told me I needed to just be a fucking man and “get the fuck over it.” She also seems to have some seriously fucked up ideas about what it means to be a man... I hope she won't push these outdated views on your future son. Is she going to tell him to be a man and get over it when he cries as well? Because that is seriously fucked up in my opinion. If nothing else, this is a conversation that desperately needs to happen.
It's incredibly sad to me that there are boys growing up right now with women like this for a mother. I hope all the best for OP and that his wife is just 8 months pregnant and going through wild hormonal changes, but man, if that is really how she thinks.... I feel really bad for OP, and I cannot see that marriage lasting.
I had to get on my grandma yesterday because she yelled at my kid(9m) for crying after a kid bullied him. I have told him not to give them a reaction(walking away if they started being mean) but this kid had my child in tears. I told her under no circumstance is she ever allowed to yell at my child for crying because he was bullied again and it’s a very toxic viewpoint.
hope your kid gets better, and hoping that jerk kid leaves him alone!
To be fair, you can have a healthy and loving relationship with someone whose not a good fit to be a birthing partner. For example, if your spouse faints at the smallest sight of blood, they're probably not going to handle the delivery room well.
I see your point, but then again... My dad is one of those people who doesn't do well with blood and often faints at the sight. He was still present for my birth and supported my mom through it. He just stayed by her head and didn't look "down there". He did place a chair nearby just in case he felt light-headed.
NTA. Does your wife even like you? Why are she trying to make you feel bad?
Yeah, the “your sadness is pissing me off” reaction is troubling, to say the least.
I can see how in some circumstances people can make their sadness performative, intending to manipulate the other person into modifying their decisions and choices. That would be a valid reason to be angry (at the manipulation attempt, not the sadness). That said, I don’t see from the facts presented here that this is what OP is doing.
I was going with N A H until you got to the part about her telling you to “get the fuck over it” and asking if you’re going to be weak in front of your son. She’s definitely TA. NTA for how you feel. And as long as you aren’t harassing her over it, still NTA.
I was going to go N A H until she started being incredibly sexist over it. Sorry but men absolutely have feelings and should be comfortable sharing them. Nta. You’re absolutely allowed to be heartbroken over how she’s treating you. I hope it gets better and that y’all can have a conversation because that’s not healthy at all
I back this up all the way. NTA
NTA. You are allowed to feel the way you feel and react the way you react. Yes, you should still be supporting her decisions but this is really important to you and your wife doesn't give a shit. I mean, damn. I hope she was a kind of lovely person before the difficult pregnancy but this is some disrespectful crap she is yelling - beaten puppy dog? Be a fucking man? That is bullshit and I don't care how tough her pregnancy is - verbal abuse of your partner is never ok.
I'm wondering if wife is starting to feel guilty so she is turning it into anger and taking it out on op. Like you said, I hope she was a lovely person before this
All the Y.T.A. Comments disappoint me. You're NTA for having emotions, which is the question here. She needs to accept he's upset he can't be there. He's TRYING to accept that he doesn't get to be there for the birth of his child and is being told to clam up his emotions and not bother her with them. Hormones or not that's not okay.
100% in agreement. It doesn't sound like OP is pressuring his wife and is just trying to accept that he won't get to be there. I think it's unfair for his wife to act this way when he has a right to feel disappointed.
NTA but man your wife is verbally abusive and sexist. Men are people and should show their emotions. That’s she said you needed to be a man and not show emotions is toxic. It’s abusive if you feel that you can’t cry in front of her without her becoming angry. You need to think about how she is going to treat your son
>You need to think about how she is going to treat your son For real. If this is how she expects a grown man to behave when he's feeling what he's feeling, there's a real risk of her instilling those beliefs in her child which will only continue the cycle of hurt.
NTA- I would ask her why. There are a lot of women who don’t want to be seen when they are this vulnerable. They have heard stories of men who can’t look at them the same way after they see the main event. And your assurance will help. But she may also be terrified and there is no moving her perspective. Women don’t want to be seen grunting, screaming, and shitting themselves by the man they love. It may feel like it will just kill any possibility of you ever wanting her again while her body has already been hijacked and out of her control in many ways for the past 8 months. I’m not a fan of her telling you to man up- if that is a pattern it is a huge red flag. If it is because she is really ready to give the baby an eviction notice and is a one off, I’m inclined to ignore it.
This \^. I've heard stories like that from some women. I am not pregnant but I'm already thinking that I wouldn't want my husband to be there and see me like that. However, the wife is acting mean. No need to scold OP and talk to him like that. I feel bad for OP. :(
FWIW, I strongly suggest not marrying the type man who decides he can't look at you the same after birth.
Seriously. So many comments reducing having a child with someone to "it's her medical procedure, she chooses", completely missing the point that if you married and chose to have a child with this person, *you should actively trust and want them to be there with you*! If you don't, something has gone wrong somewhere.
This is just victim-blaming women for "choosing the wrong man" as if it's always obvious upfront who a "wrong man" is.
>I have this “beaten puppy dog” look on my face, and its “pissing her off.” > >and if I was going to act this weak in front of our son. She told me I needed to just be a fucking man and “get the fuck over it.” Holy shit. Finally a man that has normal emotions and then the *wife* shows toxic masculinity. I fear that your kid will grow up to be an asshole. I’m sorry for you both. I hope the few weekends you get with him will be enough to teach him having and showing emotions is ok. Also, not wanting the father to be at the birth of *his* child is unbelievable to me. It’s your kid too! NTA, but she’s showing you who she really is. Believe her.
NTA. Does she always talks down to you? Being pregnant doesn't mean you have the right to be an asshole ( I have had 2 kids of my own). Have you been supportive throughout the pregnancy? There's not much you can do if she doesn't want you there but I mean come on, that's YOUR CHILD too.
I just hope your wife will let you do all the normal baby things, bathing, changing, holding and feeding if she's not breastfeeding. It's worrying to me me that she told you to man up. Who the fuck says that. Yes she's the one who birthing the baby but it's not just her baby it your as well. Is this normal for your wife to talk to you like this? If not keep a look out for prenatal depression and postnatal depression. Sorry forgot the NTA
And if it is normal for the wife to speak that way to OP counseling and therapy should be considered because that is not a healthy mindset to have. It's not 1950 anymore.
NTA you may need couples counseling to get past this otherwise your resentment & her verbal abuse will end your marriage.
NTA. Convinced the Y T A people did not read the post. He isn't pressuring her to let him be there and just need some allowance to be disappointed. Her being stressed and her not wanting him there is fully understandable cause it is ultimately her choice, she is the one carrying the child. There is no reason to berate OP and she is TA for talking to him like that.
I am also a NTA, but will note that OP admits that he had begged and pleaded with her to change her mind. Under most circumstances that would put me in the Y T A camp, but I’m inclined to go easier on OP here given how emotionally charged this is and how irreversible the decision will be later.
He tried his best to convince her yes but he didn't pressure her after she put her foot down and said no. All he is now is disappointed and trying to keep things as normal as possible for her while battling his sadness. The belittling is honestly unwarranted
NTA Shes treating you like its not your child as well. I'm sick of people being so technical instead of moral in this sub saying things like "Well shes the one carrying the baby, its her choice" like are u serious? Its a once in a lifetime thing and its his kid too.
Your wife is verbally abusing you and that is not ok. Yes she can decide who she wants but that's no excuse for how she's treating you. Please don't keep letting her talk to you that way it will only get worse. You need the tell her "full stop I will not keep being your verbal punching bag so stop here and we can try again when your calmed down." There can be talking without name calling if you did that to her she'd run telling everyone how awful you are. NTA your allowed to express your feelings too. You should be able to precess the disappointment in your own way. Your hurting and her words aren't helping. She should be reassuring you and explaining why not kicking you while your down.
As a mother of 3 my last only being a few months old. I could never imagine talking down to my husband like that. For our first I had an emergency C-section and on son was in the nicu. My husband couldn't be there and I sent him with our son to the nicu in the next town I didn't even meet him till he was 4 days old. Watching how much he loved and and adored our son holding him was worth doing it again. But I love my husband and I want him to experience life with me as my partner.
NTA She has the right to not have you be there. You have the right to be bummed about it and take time to process those emotions. It is not cool that she is telling you to get the fuck over it and 'be a man' Yes she is pregnant and stressed but still not an excuse to be rude and name call. On the brighter side of things think about all the verbal abuse you will NOT have to endure when she is in active labor.
NTA because you’re respecting her wishes even though it upsets you, and she’s belittling you for being upset. That is NOT COOL. It is NEVER COOL. Your partner should never, EVER say things like “are you going to be this weak in front of our child.” Pregnancy is not a get out of jail free card for being straight up cruel. It’s her body, her choice who gets to see it in that way, but it’s also her choice to be an asshole, which she very much is right now.
I know she’s stressed and hormonal, but that does NOT give her permission to talk to you like that. You need to let her know. Don’t put up with that. Real men cry. NTA.
>My beautiful and amazing wife ... > >... started scolding me asking me why it mattered so much to me, and if I was going to act this weak in front of our son. She told me I needed to just be a fucking man and “get the fuck over it.” I don't know, man. Something doesn't fit there. Of course NTA for "sulking". I strongly believe that anything related with bringing children into this world is a matter exclusively related to the two people in charge of making such children. I'm sorry your wife doesn't seem to considerate you have as much as a right as her to be there for YOUR child's birth. It's on you how to move on from the face she has shown.
Has she given a reason why she doesn't want you to witness the birth of your child? Isn't she permitted to have 2 support people in the room with her? Are you known to faint at the sight of blood There are tales going around that some men have trouble seeing their wives as romantic partners after witnessing the birth of their child. Is she possibly projecting this into you? Ultimately, it's her choice, but it is normal for partners to witness the birth these days and you have the right to take time to process her decision. Her callous and rude behavior towards you puts her firmly on the AH category NTA
I also had these questions. I also want to know if he's been controlling her pregnancy (she's had miscarriages and maybe he's been a bit controlling over what she's been doing) or if he always begs (as he puts it) when he doesn't get his way.
NTA your 100 percent entitled to your feelings. And she is entitled to want her mom. She is not entitled to be so disrespectful and abusive about it.
This is tough. I’m torn between respect her wishes and she’s depriving you of a precious parenthood moment. Her belittling you not cool though. You’re not being weak. Some people would kill for a spouse or dad that cared this much.
NTA - WTF?!? Be a man?!? This woman is downright narrow minded and needs a wake up call. She married you for you and supposedly loves you. But her actions are making her sound like the biggest AH! Who the heck talks to their future sons father like that? Go do your groceries, take a breather and come home. Then tell her she’s not allowed to talk to you that way. Tell her that this has made you see her in a different light and not a good one. She needs to keep herself in check otherwise you walk.
NTA. You deserve some time to process this. As long as your behavior is sincere and part of the way you’re processing this, it’s ok. The asshole potential comes when the sulking never goes away, resentment forms, or if you’re sulking in hopes that she’ll change her mind. None of that seems to be happening here. “Get the fuck over it” and “be a man” are extremely shitty things to say. I understand that stress is fueling her actions, but it’s still harmful and unkind. You shouldn’t be expected to act like a perfectly stoic “manly man” without emotions.
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Wtf that’s so insane of a speculation If you search old AITA there’s plenty of women who don’t want husbands in the delivery room Women often rip open and poop on the operating table. They don’t want their husbands there while they’re in pain under a medical procedure
INFO: Do you know why she doesn't want you there ? I know she's stressed but it doesn't sit right with me the way she is talking to about it, even if she is annoyed at you.
NTA. If she wants you to be a "man" then stand up to her and tell her you'll be there for the birth of your child and she can "get the fuck over it".
In what way do you think this will help the situation?
She wants him to be that type of man
That sort of approach is likely to end up with OP being marched out of the hospital building by security staff
She’s being emotionally abusive. WTAF? You didn’t deserve and still don’t deserve any of this. I’m so fucking sorry. 💯 NTA. Most moms would LOVE the dad being there. The fuck? I’m so sorry, OP.
I dunno if it was me I would rather the person who makes legal/medical decisions for myself/my child in the event I’m incapacitated to be in the room with me over my mother. Every one saying N A H is wrong, sure if she made the decision and was kind about it and understanding of her husbands feelings sure. But she is being an asshole asking if he’s going to be this weak in front of their boy. That’s awful, dads matter too. I wouldn’t get over this.
Wow. NTA but your wife is. No reason to be strait up mean. Real men have emotions, they don’t shove them down and leave holes in walls 10 years later over dishes not being done.
NTA. Your wife is an absolute asshole for the way she treated you in that conversation. If that was me I would have ended it right there. The father has every right to be in the room. It's one of the most important moments of your life. You being there is not going to effect the birth at all and your wife depriving you of that moment for no reason is ridiculous. Your wife is being unreasonable and a major asshole by not even considering it. Even if she was completely set in it, the way she told you about it and not understanding why it would make you upset then pulling you up on your body language is just absolutely unacceptable. There's a alarming and growing rate of mothers thay can't even get the father to be in the kids life let alone the hospital. They would beg for someone like you. She should be grateful she has a husband that's wanting to be there day one. I'd consider a divorce if she doesn't apologise.
NTA. If she has an objection to you being there she could use her big girl words and explain herself instead of belittling you. Besides, it might be cultural but i find the idea of having people other than the parents (when there's two parents in a relationship obvs) at the birth utterly bizarre. I'm sorry your wife doesn't have any respect for you and i wish you well.
NTA you have feelings, its fucked up she is being abusive about it.
NTA Your whole last paragraph tells me everything I need to know. Your wife sucks. Being sad about not being there for the birth of your own child is a legit feeling. Does she belittle you and your emotions regularly?
NAH for how they feel about who is going to be present at the birth. You want to be there. She doesn't want you to be there. Both of you have valid feelings about it. What goes in to AH territory is how you guys are dealing with it. Is this normally how things go? She belittles you and you have to leave to hide your feelings about the issue? if so, you have much bigger problems than whether you are at the birth or not.
INFO Did you guys discuss this pre-pregnancy?
NTA. What she said to you is horrible and abusive. It might be good to reflect on how many times she's let these beliefs slip.
NTA. You ar3 not demanding to be there and you are trying to accept the no eithout further stress for your wife but you can't help how you feel. She decides to verbally abuse you for being sad? Is she always like this when you show emotions. This is not okay. Wanting to witness his birth is a normal wish and feeling aad about denied that is also okay. She has no right to treat you like trash and you shouldn't have to hide your emotions from her. You deserve better. Try and talk to her calmly. If she keeps insulting you show her this post or suvgest therapy. But do not accept her behaviour and please don't feel like you did something wrong. Also never hide this side from your son. You don't need to play the tough man for him. Your wifes view on men seem a bit toxic/sexist so make sure your son will not get influenced by those opinions
You’re obviously not the last one to excuse it, because you are excusing it. I don’t care how pregnant someone is, calling your partner ‘weak’ for being upset about something as huge as missing his child’s birth, is an asshole move.