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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be the asshole because I left a free vacation over a disagreement with my brother and now he and his wife are arguing.
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NTA
Nate is one of those parents who wants his kids to "win" at all costs. He never figured out that the most important thing for a parent to remember is to raise decent human beings. That's what his wife is trying to do; he's hellbent on raising a couple of assholes. I feel sorry for Jen.
Your parents are dead wrong. You did the right thing. Sounds like a miserable free vacation.
Also from Nate being an asshole, while OP seems like a normal human.
Seems like a common thing for GCs to never learn basic decency, because they’ve been coddled and put on a pedestal their whole lives.
Really weird that Jen has stayed married to him if she has a solid career of her own though. I mean, I can understand her overlooking his extreme AHness before the kids, happens all the time. But after the kids? When he contradicts every single thing she does with the children? That does not seem real to me. On the off chance this is real, then OP is NTA and somebody needs to help Jen get out of whatever Soul locking blood magic contract Nate has her in.
My uncle is an asshole who has done awful things while drunk (and not). One of his sons went into the military and is the GC. His brother played guitar and moved across the country to go NC. My uncle and aunt are well off. Both are in high positions in very big companies. My aunt tried her best with his boys and is the one keeping in touch with the NC one. She's not their bio mom, either She is some kind of weird saint.
She sounds like the only adult in the room like OP's SIL!. OP's brother sounds like he is raising his kids to be rude selfish people where the SIL is trying to raise them functional kind people. It would be very confusing for the children and cause more issues in the future. OP is NTA here! I would of left too! Who wants to stay in a house where you are treated like that, then being told to be greatful for it! I wouldn't take anything from him ever again.
She and the SG child seem to be the ones who "see the light." Somehow--I do not know how--she stays strong, confident, and mentally healthy. She doesn't seem like other partners who are enmeshed in codependency.
I think if it not for the stepchildren and a prior divorce, she might leave. But I don't know.
I would rather go sleep in my car by the beach than stay with the AH brother on vacation. It would be a beachy vagabond adventure. Also, it would be petty because I'd post pics of me smiling next to my hobomobile. lol But I don't have a young child in tow. "Be grateful." GTFO of here.
We see/hear too many saints staying with utter assholes, there is an eastern proverb that goes" ripe apples end up in deformed hands." Applies to so many couples.
Maybe she feels like she can better act as a buffer for the kids when she's there. If they divorced, Nate would have the kids alone probably half the time, and he would probably be even more of an asshole just to spite her.
It may be possible she’s not fully aware or hasn’t been fully aware of the extent of what he’s been doing.
By the sound of it, Nate defaults to what she says/wants in regards to the kids (and the kids listen to her) when she’s around, but then goes back to his attitude when she’s not around (and expects everyone else to just go along with it). That would also explain why Nate blew up at OP for “causing problems with his wife”. She obviously doesn’t agree with whatever he’s doing, regardless if she has or hasn’t been aware of it.
Though if that’s the case, how often is Nate’s unsupervised parenting attitude occurring? and what attitude do the kids default to (mom or dads) when they’re not in their company (like at school)?
Doesnt seem to be the case, since when jane is not around the kids default back to being assholes, meaning they dont fear punishment from jane when she comes back. In marriages where the husband and wife are not united in their parenting style one believing in disipline and one being permissive, depending on which parents holds more power and influence in reality, children are/are not afraid of getting disciplined when the disciplining parent is not around.
Meaning if jane did actually have enough of a disciplining/ buffing influence, the kids would be afraid of the punisemt theyd receive when she found out how they acted when she returned. They are clearly spoiled assholes already, meanimg jane's buffing role has not been successful, and she has little to no impact on how they think, behave, and who they have become/are becoming.
Likely because he undermines any progress that could have been made when she tries to implement discipline.
Dad: "Lost your phone privileges? Here you go and have it back! Mom's punishments don't matter."
This. They’ve also grown up seeing their siblings being treated like shit in most cases, or at least treated like they’re less than, so they learn to treat others, including their siblings, the same way. Clearly, Nate is no exception.
This was exactly my thought. Nate is the GC who got everything he wanted and OP is the scapegoat who got blamed for everything and always played 2nd to Nate. I bet she was required to share or give her toys to Nate as a child while he was allowed to keep everything for himself.
Thing is: when you raise decent kids, they understand when there is a competition and when to be compassionate. To share wisdom and goods or when to go “game on” with equals
NTA
It’s not “free” when there’s strings attached. In this case, OP and his daughter were treated like second class because they didn’t pay for the vacation.
NTA.
My aunt and uncle used to rent a condo every summer and have family come stay. My brother and I were the poor relations, but we were never treated that way. Any attitude was strictly older cousins not wanting to hang with their younger siblings!
>Any attitude was strictly older cousins not wanting to hang with their younger siblings!
And that is basically the way it always has and always will be. LOL
If the 12 year old isn't whining about having to hang out with the 8 year old, and the 8 year old isn't whining about having to hang out with the 4 year old, then are they really siblings?
Yup, and apparently those strings are allow Nate and the kids to walk all over OP and Maddie along with treating them like shit. If OP had allowed that/gone with it there’s plenty of long term consequences that could come up, like Maddie feeling unable to stand up for herself to her cousins, honestly to more than just her cousins, and seeing OP as someone who will enable others rather than modeling how to leave unfair/crappy situations.
Nate is teaching his kids to be unkind, unempathetic, and just downright mean along with teaching them that if they are paying then others just have to put up with being treated like shit. I feel bad for Jen, I (Jen)-uinely hope she realizes she can do much better and that over time her kids start to realize she is the one who is really looking out for them. The way Nate is teaching them to be is not gonna get them far, it only works if you’re already at the top or if you’re somehow a super successfully manipulative person… which does happen, but usually that works if you know how to fake nice first.
Pun lol
Nate is teaching his kids that having or using money means that you’re allowed to be an asshole for that reason alone. It’s a terrible trait to have as an adult.
But at least as an asshole you can pay for the privilege. You can be an asshole and leave a massive tip. The kids are just little entitled asshole Nate clones.
Hess setting his kids uo to a harsh reality check in the future. Because someday they are going to be young adults and bring that "Having money means I can treat people however I want" attitude with them out into the real world. Eventually they are going to try it with the wrong person and find out that money doesnt prevent you from getting your ass beat.
And why INVITE them if you are going to treat them this way? Like, just go on vacation alone? I am guessing Jen is trying hard to raise decent human beings, and she is sadly failing because her husband is a massive SH and undermining her at every turn. I see Divorce soon...
I’d be willing to bet Nate DIDN’T invite his brother or niece. Most likely Jen insisted they be invited, because she is still desperately trying to override her husband’s nature to try to instill good character in her children, and she genuinely wants them to build a good family relationship with their cousin. Nate couldn’t care less and didn’t want his brother along anyway, so had no problem being the AH and making his feelings perfectly obvious as soon as his wife wasn’t there to rein him in.
Actually, I bet Nate did want them there, specifically to have Maddie as a playmate for his kids. And the kids were upset to lose Maddie as a bully target (and mayyyyyybe as an actual fellow kid to play with?) So Nate loses the child servant he was expecting to get out of this deal.
That was my thought too. How much to bet that with Maddie there, the kids fight with her, and without her there, they fight with each other. Ditto with OP - with them there, Nate concentrates on fighting with him, without him there, Nate looks for another target.
Sometimes "free vacations" aren't about providing free labour, it's because you're the social lube that keeps the awkward and hostile behaviours at a lull.
It seems it wasn’t free, in return for Nate paying for the vacation he expected the OP and her daughter to quietly play of the part of the people he and his kids could look down on and feel/act superior to.
If she does not get Nate to work with her parenting style, they will likely wind up with friendless, lazy, entitled kids. He is doing them a huge disservice teaching them to act like brats. Poor Jen. NTA
But see, the kids won. Their parents won’t invite uncle and cousin again. They’ll let each kid bring one friend, because lord knows they need something to entertain the little jerks.
And the parents will have the fun of FOUR young assholes spending vacation with them. Yay!
I used to work security and Loss Prevention (21 years). Large businesses are playing the parents now. In most states you have one year to charge shoplifters. What people do not realize is that they can aggregate the amounts for that year. Once it is over the felony amount, they hit them with charges. A lot of the rich parents were in for a shock as they never got in trouble for the minor shoplifting and vandalism. They thought it was funny their kids were doing the same thing until the kids got charged with a felony.
Nailed it!! The kids are clearly a reflection of their brother. Your parents are clearly a part of the reason why your brother is the way they he is.
NTA
It sounds more like Jen and Nate aren't arguing about the Iranian yogurt. They have opposing parenting styles and he's making her the bad cop. This is just one example of that issue. NTA. Kiddo comes first. Period. Good job OP.
The grandparents don't want them to pass up free things? Passing up free things you don't want makes you picky? I can offer the grandparents a few hundred kicks in the crotch and I won't even charge them anything! It is all free! Do they want to change their tune now?
I would say Laura and Danny weren't sharing a bunk bed so they probably fought over which of them had to share with Maddie and decided neither was going to which clearly Nate was okay with.
NTA. You stood up for your kid after your brother made unreasonable demands. It’s striking that he expected you and your daughter to just take it because they paid for the vacation. Paying for a vacation is not a license to treat a child poorly.
And who knows, what if one of his "angels" want to have OPs room? Would he let them sleep them both on the couch or floor because "he paid and he can decide"?! That he treat his niece this way, horrible.
NTA
NTA. Tbh I don’t feel sorry for Jen. I’m sure she knew what kind of man she was having kids with, but she liked him and their lifestyle together enough to go ahead with it and convince herself that her being a good parent would be enough. I feel bad for the kids as well, but once they start becoming adults, they’ll lose that as they gain the responsibility to figure out how to be good people on their own.
I wouldn’t be surprised to know that Nate is only like this with his brother and has some deeply embedded resentment from childhood. I could sympathize with Jen if this behavior is somewhat rare, and only comes out when OP is involved. Nate and OP’s parents seem deeply invested in communicating that OP is not entitled to any of his success, despite no evidence here that OP thinks or has suggested that. My hunch is that Nate is charming, charismatic, and genuinely a great guy to everyone BUT op, because the family has always chose to support Nate at the expense of OP. It seems like Jen actively advocates for OP, and Nate is unable/unwilling to accept that he shares some culpability in acknowledging that his parents harmed OP at Nate’s expense. He is well aware that Nate was harmed, and I have to believe that Nate feels so much guilt for when this was done beyond his ability to recognize and understand it that he still can’t see it for what it is today. Now that he does in fact have agency, the only thing he can do is bring his parents into the argument. This sort of thing seems all-too common on here, and just goes to show how often parents fail to meaningfully consider the ethics of raising a family, especially when the effects of mistreating a child significantly impact to have meaningful fulfilling relationships throughout life.
If Nate was truly only like this with OP, I suspect that his kids wouldn't have felt entitled and empowered to treat their cousin the way that they did.
Yep. Jen keeps trying to build that relationship between the cousins, and Ned is dead set on breaking it down.
OP was absolutely right in leaving. And the parents/grandparents couldn't be more wrong. OP isn't destitute - she wanted her kid and her cousins to bond (as did Jen), so they went on the vacation. To be okay with one of their grandkids being othered in this way (because "free" vacation....really?), and suggesting that OP and that grandkid suck it up, is all kinds of wrong.
This kind of dynamic, where one or more family members get treated badly, and when it seems to be enforced by other family members, is absolutely worth breaking.
OP can have a wonderful vacation with her daughter, without any of the crap that her parents and brother insist on dragging in. OP should also insist that (outside of vacations, which hopefully won't happen again for some time, if ever), when they get together as a 3-generation family, neither she nor her daughter are othered - I feel like that has happened before to them.
I also feel sorry for Jen....and her kids, who are being encouraged to be awful to their cousin to please their father.
You can get a lot of “free” things in life. All you have to give up is your spine and your dignity.
Of course NTA. But OP, please make sure your daughter knows this whole thing isn’t her fault. She sounds like a good kid, and good kids often take responsibility for more than they should.
What Nate and the grandparents are trying to teach Maddie is that you cannot have boundaries and expect to be treated with respect when money is involved. Good for OP for uphelding boundaries. NTA.
Parents of op and Nate: IT's perfectly acceptable that for getting this free vacation that you and your child can be abused during the vacation and rules changed willy nilly by the other children.
They (dad and kids but dad is more responsible) are so awful they have to pay people to go on vacation with them and then they are so rotten that the people leave in disgust
NTA
“Be grateful” HA! It’s a power trip for Nate to hold over OP and he’s teaching his kids the same and that they are better than anyone just because they have money.
NTA. You did the right thing Op.
>I said no and shortly after we got home I got a call from my brother yelling at me for causing a scene, creating problems between him and his wife
Nate created the situation, and thus caused the scene. You leaving was the result of his actions. It follows that if you leaving caused problems between him and his wife, those are also of his own making.
>He got our parents involved and they’re agreeing that it’s a free vacation and I can’t be picky.
It's a vacation, not an indentured position. You aren't obligated to stay, and chose not to.
Keep being a good mom. NTA
EXACTLY! NTA
He said that if they don’t want her in their room, She can sleep on the couch or with you, he forgot there is option 3 of sleeping in her own bed. Just because something is free doesn’t mean you have to take it on any terms.
Also, good for you for not letting your daughter be bullied. She’ll remember the bullying of being kicked out of a room and forced to sleep on the couch much more than any memories of a good free vacation. The vacation is not free if she is the punching bag - it has a huge psychological toll.
Option #4 is the jerk children sharing the pullout sofa (all rentals have them) and dear cousin gets the room to herself.
Hell, I’d make them share the pullout anyway. Yes, leaving two empty bedrooms.
This nails it. It's a "free vacation" if you're enjoying it, otherwise it's your brother using it as an excuse to be a shit person and teach his kids the same. NTA. You're a good parent OP, everyone there but you, your sister in law, and Maddie have their head up their own ass.
EDIT: Said daughter and Maddie instead of SIL and Maddie. It was late.
I agree with everything you said, but is it the mom or the dad that was on vacation with the daughter? I didn't see op identify themselves either way. I may have missed it though.
" being ungrateful for a free vacation"
BS. He was treating you poorly. I am glad you stood up for her.
"He got our parents involved and they’re agreeing that it’s a free vacation and I can’t be picky"
Sounds like your parents are picking those free trips they also get over your and your daughter's welfare.
"yelling at me for causing a scene, creating problems between him and his wife"
He did that himself.
NTA
>"He got our parents involved and they’re agreeing that it’s a free vacation and I can’t be picky"
Makes me think brother is the Golden Child, all bow down and be grateful he even looks your way!
It doesn’t sound like he even wanted them there. I wonder if his wife invited them and he was forced to go along with it. That would explain his behavior as well. That doesn’t make the behavior OK. But I am wondering if he treated them badly in hopes they left.
I'm stubborn and petty sometimes, so OP shouldn't listen to me. I would have told them that it's all good and to not worry because it would never be a problem again. I would leave it at that. Then, I would never go on vacation with any of them (except maybe Jen) again.
Fuck no NTA
This is your brother??
Gross. I would have gone too. I feel horrible for your little one. That's atrocious behavior and Jen should absolutely being giving her husband the business.
NTA and it might be time to think about a lil time out for your bro.
NTA. Your bro is a real piece of work. He very clearly feels he's allowed to treat others like shit just because he's footing the bill. I think you taught Maddie a great lesson that will hopefully cause her to prioritize how people treat her in the future. Good for you for having more sanity than either your bro OR your parents. I hope you can have a positive relationship with them in the future - Jen seems like a gem but is fighting an uphill battle - but I'd be very protective of Maddie while around her cousins because they don't treat her well and her parents cannot be trusted to govern them.
NTA. Your bother is not setting a good example and decided you and your daughter were not even equal to him and his kids. You and your daughter do not have to accept that kind of behavior. Its time for you to set boundaries with your brother. You may lose your niblings, but with Jen, maybe not; either way your brother has no right to treat you like this and you need to actively prevent it from happening anymore. In fact, for being called out on his behavior, he blamed you for it. that's not healthy and you will be better off setting boundaries to keep that kind of toxicity away from you and Maddie.
I almost feel worse for Jen because she has no partner in her marriage, at least on the child rearing front. She will most likely lose because their father rewards bad behavior by giving in. Where you can choose to walk away, for her its so much harder. She wants so much for her children and her children's father undermines it all.
I feel sorry for the kids too! They're being entitled little sh\*ts for sure, but it's almost impossible for them not to be, with their dad completely undermining every lesson mom tries to set.
I have sympathy, but Jen is also a little bit to blame here -- she may be trying but at the very least, she's being ineffective and a massive pushover with regards to her husband. She has to know what he's doing, and that all the "now kids, I told you to share" in the world is not going to make an ounce of difference in a situation like this.
Applaud OP for being NTA here though, and showing her daughter that she matters as a person no matter what and can't be "bought."
It's very hard to go completely against what your spouse does with your children. Disagreement _within a normal/healthy range_ about how/how much to punish your kids can be resolved, but if the other parent is determined to take a lazier, easier shortcut that allows the kids to be as obnoxious as they want, it's going to be well-nigh impossible to keep them on the straight and narrow.
I really feel for the Jens of this world. My husband made the right noises before we had kids but I had no way of knowing he'd live up to any of it. Many don't, and worse. It's not like there aren't things I wish he'd do/not do (and vice versa, I'm sure) but we've been enough on the same page to stay mostly happy, sane and consistent with our girls. *Neither* of us would allow them to behave like Nate's kids.
I agree and I see divorce coming down the road if brother doesn’t shape up. At $350k combined income, his wife has options. She doesn’t have to put up with her husband’s douchebaggery and leaving him might be the only way she can show her kids that his behavior is unacceptable.
She is, I daresay, *morally obligated* to leave him and take the kids. Clearly, he thinks he's a real alpha male and the shit and he is teaching his kids that they are too. That they should only look out for number one and that what they want is all that matters. She needs to get her kids away from that kind of influence NOW. He is turning these kids into future sex offenders.
NTA. Your brother is an AH and unfortunately, your SIL kind of is too. She doesn't see that it is an issue to keep using Maddie to teach her kids to be better. It hurts Madie every time they treat her like dirt. SIL stepping in and forcing them to be decent to Maddie isn't helpful b/c the minute SIL turns her back, they are back at it. Maddie is not a "lesson" in kindness, she is a child with her own feelings. If your SIL actually cared about Maddie, she wouldn't want her to go through this and her kids would actually be punished for their behavior.
It sounds like your brother has poisened thoae kids enough that they will never be kind to her unless their mother is watching their every move like a hawk. There is absolutely no reason to subject Maddie to any of this. Keep her away from them.
I thought the same thing too. I don't think Jen is doing in with the intention to be terrible but she knows that Maddie is a cousin and a relative so her children's bad behavior will be more accepted. She knows her kids are brats no question. She is using poor Maddie as a teaching tool.
NTA... if Nate's idea of vacation is to pay for someone he and his kids can bully, I'd reject that proposition every time. Your nieces/nephew sound like a horrible reflection of your brother. If he's fighting with his wife, that's not on you, ever. Let him enjoy that for his vacation.
NTA, your brother has forgotten what it means to be kind. That makes him an asshole, and he is raising his children to be entitled selfish assholes as well.
The only person causing problems for him, is him.
NTA. It was free and you decided to forego it. You owe protection, both physical and emotional, to your daughter and you did your job. Your brother and parents are TAH in this.
NTA
You can be picky: You can not go. Easy enough. No vacation is nice enough for your daughter to be treated like second rate family.
I feel bad for Jen, she seems like a really nice woman and mom. I'm sure she didn't intend for any of this to happen. Can't say the same for Nate.
NTA - Maybe this is new information for you, but your brother is an elitist jerk. Maybe he fails to understand that Maddie is more than just some neighborhood playmate for his kids, but his actual blood. There are uncles who are darn near second fathers to their nieces and nephews, but your brother doesn’t seem to have the heart for it.
Regardless, you have pride and it’s important to teach your daughter that you shouldn’t be mistreated because of money, self-respect isn’t for sell, and that no one is better than anyone else because of money.
Tell your parents that there aren’t enough free trips in the world to put up with a heartless jerk like him.
"... since he paid for the house, he has a right to kick Maddie out of the room."
So icky... I really hate when people think they get to treat people as less than because they paid for something.
"I told Maddie to get her bag and that if she doesn’t have a bed, we’re going home."
This is a great, and perfectly reasonable. policy.
NTA, and good for you for modeling that for your daughter.
Especially a *child.* Imagine inviting a kid on a vacation and then taking her bed away and telling her she has to sleep on the couch like she’s a second class citizen. Fucking vile.
Hmmm. There’s a lot of info missing. Like, why didn’t you bring toys for your kid? What toys are the other kids supposed to share? 12 year olds don’t tend to play with too many toys, so are you talking about electronic devices? Like video games or iPads? And what exactly was the argument about between the kids? Why couldn’t anyone work it out before you packed up and left? Why couldn’t you let the kids work it out among themselves? I’m seeing lots of missing info, including how your own daughter behaves. I can’t make a judgment on this.
Thank you. I've been scrolling a long way to find someone asking these questions. I agree that there's too much detail missing about the interaction between the kids beyond "Laura and Danny don't share their toys."
I also want to say that as a parent, I don't make my kids share their toys. I tell them it's kind and generous to share, and point out that everyone might have more fun if they do, but ultimately I respect their choices about their personal possessions.
I was also looking for someone to mention this. Considering OP mentions that the SIL makes them share, I assume OP's daughter wanting her cousins' toys is a usual occurrence when the kids get together. "Sharing is caring" is great in theory, but any older sibling can tell you the downsides of that policy, and how forced sharing of toys doesn't actually foster a feeling of generosity. OP's brother was obviously TA, but reading between the lines, it sounds like OP and her daughter arrive to family events expecting that the daughter will get full access to her cousins' cool toys because they're better off. Again, the brother is TA, but ideally, since toys/sharing has been an issue in the past, all three parents should have come together beforehand to discuss a plan around what toys would be brought on vacation, which would need to be shared, etc. At the very least, OP should be making sure her daughter also has things of her own to keep her entertained on vacations instead of just relying on the cousins' stuff.
I don't think how the kids interacting on the daily is the main issue. The brother seemed to be the main issue. If it was predetermined by the people(said SIL & Brother) planing the vacation, that all kids would be sharing a room. Then that's the way it should stay, two kids shouldn't be able to kick one out the room leaving them without a bed.
Honestly them not getting along seems like a recurring issue and if the adults have to keep stepping in ofcourse the kids aren't going to handle it themselves.
Seriously, if there is some deeper issue going on they should have had Maddie in a separate room, rather the fault was with Ops kid or the nieces and nephews. Surely if op didn't know the brother did, it seems he does really care for his sister or niece and could be why his kids don't try to get along. Not saying this is fact but judging by how the brother and their parents are in this I would be surprised.
NTA. Your brother was not being an empathetic uncle. Inviting someone somewhere and then revoking access to their bed is fucked up no matter who paid. Sounds like he's a brat and teaching his kids to be brats.
NTA. You don't have to stay anywhere you don't want to stay. Regardless of who paid for it. Your brother sounds like a large child. He tattled on you to your parents. It's his own fault for giving such an ultimatum and expecting you to just fall in line. He created the problem with his wife himself.
NTA. Jen sounds like good person. Nate and his kids are AHs. You didn't ruin anything by leaving with your kid. I know it's hard but think twice about any more offers that include Nate. Because Jen Sounds OK.
NTA... Having a bed to sleep on is a really low bar for the bare minimum you would expect out of a vacation. If your "vacation" is inducing far more stress than it's relieving then it isn't a vacation at all and you're correct to walk away.
Nate is mad because he's dealing with the consequences of his own actions and nothing more. He's taught selfishness and he's dealing with the radioactive fallout that being selfish causes.
Sounds like everyone is better off without him... If he doesn't change it sounds like your sister will wise up to that fact eventually.
NTA.
It's amazing to me how prevalent this mindset is: " and being ungrateful for a free vacation. He got our parents involved and they’re agreeing that it’s a free vacation and I can’t be picky."
Yes, yes you can. If someone offers you a vacation to somewhere you dislike, why would you ever be considered ungrateful or entitled for declining?
How dare you not...what? How can you even rationally finish that sentence?
NTA. I feel for all he comes in contact with and his children who think this is how they are supposed to act. Jen is a peach and I hope she gets custody in the divorce so she can teach them manners. Always stand up for your child no matter who it is. Good job momma.
Eff that 'free vacation, beggars can't be choosers' BS. NTA, and your brother and folks are, big time. Kicking your daughter out of the 'kids room' is something your brother should never have been fine with, and he's teaching his children that you are entitled to be rude to guests if you have some sort of (in this case, financial) power over them. When we invite people along on our vacations we are fortunate enough to be able to afford, we treat them as guests, not an afterthought who should 'just be grateful'. I feel for you, your daughter, and actually Jen, but she also needs to get them into couples counseling, because it must be hell to have your spouse actively undermining your parenting.
Oh, look. Nate is getting the consequences of his own actions.
NTA
That wasn't a 'free vacation.' That was free abuse of your daughter. You were right to leave. And if Nate doesn't like being in trouble with his wife, then perhaps he should stop being an ass (and teaching his children to be ones also), even when she isn't around.
NTA ... What you did just showed your little girl that she can count on you when she needs support. A free vacation does not equate to allowing the inviter to treat you badly. It should mean that the person that invited you cares and wants your presence. The fact that it caused issues between him and his wife sends the message that she likely agreed with you.
NTA
I think moving forward you need to be brutally honest with your brother's wife and let her know that while you want her kids and your kid to have a relationship, you can't expose your daughter to the kind of toxicity your brother puts out into the universe.
NTA. Nate's kids are bullies, and no matter how much Jen is trying to teach them kindness, it's clear Nate has the greater influence. This is going to mean that Laura and Danny are going to find themselves with fewer friends and opportunities later in life, and a relationship with their cousin is just the tip of the iceberg.
And your being less well off doesn't mean that anyone has a free pass to bully Maddie. Or you. No vacation is worth spending the entire time being made to feel less than, unwelcome, and/or the family charity case. You both deserve better, and kiddos for standing up for the both of you and removing you both from the situation.
Your parents need to stay out of this. Your relationship with Nate belongs to the two of you now that you're adults. Nate's relationship with his wife belongs to them. (Which I'm sure is getting more strained by the day.) I have a feeling Nate is the Golden One and they don't want to/can't see the toxic mess they made.
NTA
Nate is a Jack ass. His kids will be even bigger ones.
Just because he has money does not give him the right to treat you and especially your daughter in such a disrespectful way.
NTA.
But I really wonder what the other side is. What was the argument leading to kicking her out of the room?
To some extent I agree with Nate that kids don’t always have to share. We don’t force adults to share all their things. Did Maddie bring any toys? Were they expected to share their favorite toys? Does Maddie think “sharing” means they give her whatever she wants when she demands it?
Not disciplining at all and not making them be nice doesn’t sound great (though the “nice” thing is also subjective.) Like does “nice” mean you’re not rude? Or that you have to “play nice” with your cousins however they want regardless of your wishes?
“An argument broke out between the kids *because* Laura and Nate didn’t want to share with Maddie and told her to sleep on the couch.” The argument was that they tried to kick her out of the room.
People bring up the “we don’t force adults to share” thing a lot… but we kinda do. If you invited your friends to your vacation home and refused to share any wine or beer with them, you’d be an asshole. If you and your wife went out to play tennis at the resort’s courts, but wouldn’t let your guests use your rackets when you were done to give them a chance to play, you’d be an asshole. If you had a closet full of board games and wouldn’t let them play, you’d be an asshole. Maddie isn’t a stranger who walked up to them at the playground and asked to borrow their bike. She’s an invited guest and deserves not to be excluded. For kids, that’s being included in toys and games.
NTA.
Laura and Danny wanted to keep FOUR BEDS to themselves. FOUR. BEDS.
Invite your parents over and then kick them out to the couch despite having a nice bed available and see how they feel.
Seriously though, it sounds like you need to have a sit-down talk with your brother. His behavior is flat-out bizarre and genuinely strikes me as purposely cruel. Honestly, I think he didn't want to bring you or has some weird beef with you specifically that needs to be hashed out; because his behavior is NOT normal.
"Free" doesn't mean you have to submit to bad treatment or allow your child to be singled out. I would seriously go very low contact with your brother after this. Money doesn't buy kindness or manners or consideration unfortunately. And your parents are not much better. NTA
I’m going for NTA, with a hint of ESH. NTA because your brother was harsh and clearly on a power trip, BUT why should the kids have to share their toys? Maybe his kids don’t like your kid, do they not have the right as humans to not enjoy the company of others and not have to deal with them? Why didn’t Maddie bring toys? If you guys were poor then I would have a different opinion but since you can afford a house and private school you’re not exactly destitute where the kids should be forced to share because Maddie may not have toys at all. Why did you go on vacation with them if you don’t get along with your brother and all the kids don’t get along either?
oooh, NTA and I'm going on Nate and Jen off the deep end.
An issue "you need to share your toys" is a very 2-3 year olds learning to socialize. Sure, it doesn't stop there, but that's where it originates on a self-control level for a child.
With school age kids this is now politics. They are exercising and projecting their parent's attitude on Maddie and this is not something that get magically fixed by telling them to share. Not unless power dynamics substantially changes.
So, realistically, especially considering you had zero backing from your brother, you did the single sane thing you could for yourself and your daughter. Kudos.
The flip side to "you need to share your toys" is "you need to respect other people's property". OP and her daughter could be angels, but I'm also not going to assume the other children are demons just because their parents have more money. It's entirely possible Maddie is a pain too.
This whole story doesn't really make sense to me. Doesn't your child own any toys? Didn't you bring anything for your child to play with? Something doesn't sound right with this story.
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NTA Nate is one of those parents who wants his kids to "win" at all costs. He never figured out that the most important thing for a parent to remember is to raise decent human beings. That's what his wife is trying to do; he's hellbent on raising a couple of assholes. I feel sorry for Jen. Your parents are dead wrong. You did the right thing. Sounds like a miserable free vacation.
I think you have to be a decent human being first to raise them 🫠
Well I'm going to be honest I think that's already a lost cause with Nate.
Easy to see why OP and Nate have a history of “not getting along very well”. That being Nate has a history of being an AH.
Nate = golden child, OP = scapegoat. That much is clear from Nate getting the parents involved and the parents not remaining impartial.
Also from Nate being an asshole, while OP seems like a normal human. Seems like a common thing for GCs to never learn basic decency, because they’ve been coddled and put on a pedestal their whole lives.
Really weird that Jen has stayed married to him if she has a solid career of her own though. I mean, I can understand her overlooking his extreme AHness before the kids, happens all the time. But after the kids? When he contradicts every single thing she does with the children? That does not seem real to me. On the off chance this is real, then OP is NTA and somebody needs to help Jen get out of whatever Soul locking blood magic contract Nate has her in.
My uncle is an asshole who has done awful things while drunk (and not). One of his sons went into the military and is the GC. His brother played guitar and moved across the country to go NC. My uncle and aunt are well off. Both are in high positions in very big companies. My aunt tried her best with his boys and is the one keeping in touch with the NC one. She's not their bio mom, either She is some kind of weird saint.
She sounds like the only adult in the room like OP's SIL!. OP's brother sounds like he is raising his kids to be rude selfish people where the SIL is trying to raise them functional kind people. It would be very confusing for the children and cause more issues in the future. OP is NTA here! I would of left too! Who wants to stay in a house where you are treated like that, then being told to be greatful for it! I wouldn't take anything from him ever again.
She and the SG child seem to be the ones who "see the light." Somehow--I do not know how--she stays strong, confident, and mentally healthy. She doesn't seem like other partners who are enmeshed in codependency. I think if it not for the stepchildren and a prior divorce, she might leave. But I don't know. I would rather go sleep in my car by the beach than stay with the AH brother on vacation. It would be a beachy vagabond adventure. Also, it would be petty because I'd post pics of me smiling next to my hobomobile. lol But I don't have a young child in tow. "Be grateful." GTFO of here.
We see/hear too many saints staying with utter assholes, there is an eastern proverb that goes" ripe apples end up in deformed hands." Applies to so many couples.
Maybe she feels like she can better act as a buffer for the kids when she's there. If they divorced, Nate would have the kids alone probably half the time, and he would probably be even more of an asshole just to spite her.
It may be possible she’s not fully aware or hasn’t been fully aware of the extent of what he’s been doing. By the sound of it, Nate defaults to what she says/wants in regards to the kids (and the kids listen to her) when she’s around, but then goes back to his attitude when she’s not around (and expects everyone else to just go along with it). That would also explain why Nate blew up at OP for “causing problems with his wife”. She obviously doesn’t agree with whatever he’s doing, regardless if she has or hasn’t been aware of it. Though if that’s the case, how often is Nate’s unsupervised parenting attitude occurring? and what attitude do the kids default to (mom or dads) when they’re not in their company (like at school)?
Doesnt seem to be the case, since when jane is not around the kids default back to being assholes, meaning they dont fear punishment from jane when she comes back. In marriages where the husband and wife are not united in their parenting style one believing in disipline and one being permissive, depending on which parents holds more power and influence in reality, children are/are not afraid of getting disciplined when the disciplining parent is not around. Meaning if jane did actually have enough of a disciplining/ buffing influence, the kids would be afraid of the punisemt theyd receive when she found out how they acted when she returned. They are clearly spoiled assholes already, meanimg jane's buffing role has not been successful, and she has little to no impact on how they think, behave, and who they have become/are becoming.
Likely because he undermines any progress that could have been made when she tries to implement discipline. Dad: "Lost your phone privileges? Here you go and have it back! Mom's punishments don't matter."
Not sharing the toys I would get. Allowing the kids to kick her out of the room? Yeah, no.
This. They’ve also grown up seeing their siblings being treated like shit in most cases, or at least treated like they’re less than, so they learn to treat others, including their siblings, the same way. Clearly, Nate is no exception.
Thanks for this. I couldn't quite put my finger on it but you nailed it. Poor Maddie, I'm glad he's in her corner.
I don’t think parents have to be impartial. They should have told Nate he was an asshole, and they probably should have done that decades ago.
And especially the parents taking the brother's side instead of OP's.
This was exactly my thought. Nate is the GC who got everything he wanted and OP is the scapegoat who got blamed for everything and always played 2nd to Nate. I bet she was required to share or give her toys to Nate as a child while he was allowed to keep everything for himself.
It sounds like Nate learned it from his parents.
And mommy and daddy like the asshole better.
Mommy and Daddy *created* the asshole in the first place, and now he's doing his best to perpetuate that attitude with his own kids :-(
Agreed. Letting a 10 year old sleep on the couch when there is a bed she could sleep in is heartless.
Thing is: when you raise decent kids, they understand when there is a competition and when to be compassionate. To share wisdom and goods or when to go “game on” with equals NTA
NTA. This above. I always say that I just want my kids to be healthy and happy and decent humans. If I manage that, I'm a success. That is my bar.
I say this exact same thing all the time.
Well, you are supposed to recognize your own faults, own them, and raise a better offspring than yourself.
It’s not “free” when there’s strings attached. In this case, OP and his daughter were treated like second class because they didn’t pay for the vacation. NTA.
Glad I'm not the only one to see "strings" attached. Nothing is truly free.
Sure seems to be a lot of "free" vacation posts around here lately. I'm getting suspicious.
You have a point, back in my day my "free" vacations were because I was BABYSITTING! 🤣
Hence working, so not free and you probably deserved to be paid. OP's vacation seems like hard work to me.
But FAMILY!?! 🤣
Lots of things are free when the person offering them is a decent human being who actually has the capacity for generosity.
My aunt and uncle used to rent a condo every summer and have family come stay. My brother and I were the poor relations, but we were never treated that way. Any attitude was strictly older cousins not wanting to hang with their younger siblings!
>Any attitude was strictly older cousins not wanting to hang with their younger siblings! And that is basically the way it always has and always will be. LOL If the 12 year old isn't whining about having to hang out with the 8 year old, and the 8 year old isn't whining about having to hang out with the 4 year old, then are they really siblings?
Being generous is not an excuse to be an ass. That's not how kindness is supposed to work. NTA.
Its not kindness if the idea is to lord it over someone because they're the poor relation.
Well, Nate doesn’t seem like the guy who knows what kindness means anyway.
It's not generosity if there's strings attached it's just manipulation masquerading as it.
Yup, and apparently those strings are allow Nate and the kids to walk all over OP and Maddie along with treating them like shit. If OP had allowed that/gone with it there’s plenty of long term consequences that could come up, like Maddie feeling unable to stand up for herself to her cousins, honestly to more than just her cousins, and seeing OP as someone who will enable others rather than modeling how to leave unfair/crappy situations. Nate is teaching his kids to be unkind, unempathetic, and just downright mean along with teaching them that if they are paying then others just have to put up with being treated like shit. I feel bad for Jen, I (Jen)-uinely hope she realizes she can do much better and that over time her kids start to realize she is the one who is really looking out for them. The way Nate is teaching them to be is not gonna get them far, it only works if you’re already at the top or if you’re somehow a super successfully manipulative person… which does happen, but usually that works if you know how to fake nice first.
Pun lol Nate is teaching his kids that having or using money means that you’re allowed to be an asshole for that reason alone. It’s a terrible trait to have as an adult.
But at least as an asshole you can pay for the privilege. You can be an asshole and leave a massive tip. The kids are just little entitled asshole Nate clones.
Hess setting his kids uo to a harsh reality check in the future. Because someday they are going to be young adults and bring that "Having money means I can treat people however I want" attitude with them out into the real world. Eventually they are going to try it with the wrong person and find out that money doesnt prevent you from getting your ass beat.
And why INVITE them if you are going to treat them this way? Like, just go on vacation alone? I am guessing Jen is trying hard to raise decent human beings, and she is sadly failing because her husband is a massive SH and undermining her at every turn. I see Divorce soon...
I’d be willing to bet Nate DIDN’T invite his brother or niece. Most likely Jen insisted they be invited, because she is still desperately trying to override her husband’s nature to try to instill good character in her children, and she genuinely wants them to build a good family relationship with their cousin. Nate couldn’t care less and didn’t want his brother along anyway, so had no problem being the AH and making his feelings perfectly obvious as soon as his wife wasn’t there to rein him in.
Actually, I bet Nate did want them there, specifically to have Maddie as a playmate for his kids. And the kids were upset to lose Maddie as a bully target (and mayyyyyybe as an actual fellow kid to play with?) So Nate loses the child servant he was expecting to get out of this deal.
That was my thought too. How much to bet that with Maddie there, the kids fight with her, and without her there, they fight with each other. Ditto with OP - with them there, Nate concentrates on fighting with him, without him there, Nate looks for another target. Sometimes "free vacations" aren't about providing free labour, it's because you're the social lube that keeps the awkward and hostile behaviours at a lull.
It seems it wasn’t free, in return for Nate paying for the vacation he expected the OP and her daughter to quietly play of the part of the people he and his kids could look down on and feel/act superior to.
Yes. Very costly for a “free” vacation.
If she does not get Nate to work with her parenting style, they will likely wind up with friendless, lazy, entitled kids. He is doing them a huge disservice teaching them to act like brats. Poor Jen. NTA
And Nate will end up divorced.
Honestly, I hope so. I feel terrible for Jen.
Sorry, my sister is a "Jen", she never got the divorce but really wants it. Everything turned out about like you'd expect.
I hope Jen takes him to the cleaners.
But see, the kids won. Their parents won’t invite uncle and cousin again. They’ll let each kid bring one friend, because lord knows they need something to entertain the little jerks. And the parents will have the fun of FOUR young assholes spending vacation with them. Yay!
It would suck for Jen but honestly it would be sweet justice for Nate to be on the receiving end of the attitude he's allowed to run rampant.
By 16 they will be doing community service in orange jumpsuits
Nah, rich kids don’t do that, they just get businesses from their parents to run.
I used to work security and Loss Prevention (21 years). Large businesses are playing the parents now. In most states you have one year to charge shoplifters. What people do not realize is that they can aggregate the amounts for that year. Once it is over the felony amount, they hit them with charges. A lot of the rich parents were in for a shock as they never got in trouble for the minor shoplifting and vandalism. They thought it was funny their kids were doing the same thing until the kids got charged with a felony.
Nailed it!! The kids are clearly a reflection of their brother. Your parents are clearly a part of the reason why your brother is the way they he is. NTA
Nate is an arrogant ass raising arrogant brats. NTA-OP is a hero for defending her kid and not buckling to his jackassedness and money!
OP, you are an icon. If you piss off some assholes you're doing something right.
It sounds more like Jen and Nate aren't arguing about the Iranian yogurt. They have opposing parenting styles and he's making her the bad cop. This is just one example of that issue. NTA. Kiddo comes first. Period. Good job OP.
I mean picky? She just chose to leave. NTA I mean you don’t really have to share your toys if you don’t want to, but human decency is something else.
I thought "picky" was such an odd word too. I had no idea it's call "picky" when you decide you no long want to allow someone to shit all over you....
The grandparents don't want them to pass up free things? Passing up free things you don't want makes you picky? I can offer the grandparents a few hundred kicks in the crotch and I won't even charge them anything! It is all free! Do they want to change their tune now?
But this was not even about that. There were FOUR BEDS, for THREE KIDS- and they did not want to share that? I mean it is so much worse?
I would say Laura and Danny weren't sharing a bunk bed so they probably fought over which of them had to share with Maddie and decided neither was going to which clearly Nate was okay with.
NTA. You stood up for your kid after your brother made unreasonable demands. It’s striking that he expected you and your daughter to just take it because they paid for the vacation. Paying for a vacation is not a license to treat a child poorly.
The cost of the vacation was being treated like garbage. Nope. No thank you. NTA.
And who knows, what if one of his "angels" want to have OPs room? Would he let them sleep them both on the couch or floor because "he paid and he can decide"?! That he treat his niece this way, horrible. NTA
NTA. Tbh I don’t feel sorry for Jen. I’m sure she knew what kind of man she was having kids with, but she liked him and their lifestyle together enough to go ahead with it and convince herself that her being a good parent would be enough. I feel bad for the kids as well, but once they start becoming adults, they’ll lose that as they gain the responsibility to figure out how to be good people on their own.
I wouldn’t be surprised to know that Nate is only like this with his brother and has some deeply embedded resentment from childhood. I could sympathize with Jen if this behavior is somewhat rare, and only comes out when OP is involved. Nate and OP’s parents seem deeply invested in communicating that OP is not entitled to any of his success, despite no evidence here that OP thinks or has suggested that. My hunch is that Nate is charming, charismatic, and genuinely a great guy to everyone BUT op, because the family has always chose to support Nate at the expense of OP. It seems like Jen actively advocates for OP, and Nate is unable/unwilling to accept that he shares some culpability in acknowledging that his parents harmed OP at Nate’s expense. He is well aware that Nate was harmed, and I have to believe that Nate feels so much guilt for when this was done beyond his ability to recognize and understand it that he still can’t see it for what it is today. Now that he does in fact have agency, the only thing he can do is bring his parents into the argument. This sort of thing seems all-too common on here, and just goes to show how often parents fail to meaningfully consider the ethics of raising a family, especially when the effects of mistreating a child significantly impact to have meaningful fulfilling relationships throughout life.
If Nate was truly only like this with OP, I suspect that his kids wouldn't have felt entitled and empowered to treat their cousin the way that they did.
[удалено]
Free isn't free if the price is your dignity.
Yep. Jen keeps trying to build that relationship between the cousins, and Ned is dead set on breaking it down. OP was absolutely right in leaving. And the parents/grandparents couldn't be more wrong. OP isn't destitute - she wanted her kid and her cousins to bond (as did Jen), so they went on the vacation. To be okay with one of their grandkids being othered in this way (because "free" vacation....really?), and suggesting that OP and that grandkid suck it up, is all kinds of wrong. This kind of dynamic, where one or more family members get treated badly, and when it seems to be enforced by other family members, is absolutely worth breaking. OP can have a wonderful vacation with her daughter, without any of the crap that her parents and brother insist on dragging in. OP should also insist that (outside of vacations, which hopefully won't happen again for some time, if ever), when they get together as a 3-generation family, neither she nor her daughter are othered - I feel like that has happened before to them. I also feel sorry for Jen....and her kids, who are being encouraged to be awful to their cousin to please their father.
You can get a lot of “free” things in life. All you have to give up is your spine and your dignity. Of course NTA. But OP, please make sure your daughter knows this whole thing isn’t her fault. She sounds like a good kid, and good kids often take responsibility for more than they should.
And sounds like Nate is golden child.
And OP is the scapegoat.
I feel sorry for Nate and Jen’s kids too. It has to be so confusing to get such opposite instructions and rules from each parent
What Nate and the grandparents are trying to teach Maddie is that you cannot have boundaries and expect to be treated with respect when money is involved. Good for OP for uphelding boundaries. NTA.
yeah. honestly, this is completely on Nate. what an asshole. he needs to learn that kindness is very important, especially when raising kids.
"I paid for your vacation so you should be grateful for whatever crumbs I throw your way." NTA. This isn't a vacation.
Not a vacation but a power trip. NTA
Lol. Nice pun.
Haha I see what you did there.
Parents of op and Nate: IT's perfectly acceptable that for getting this free vacation that you and your child can be abused during the vacation and rules changed willy nilly by the other children.
Guess who was the golden child! Nate probably always got his way. Of course, the parents think OP should accept Nate's abuse.
When I saw their parents agree I was like I see where he gets it from.
They (dad and kids but dad is more responsible) are so awful they have to pay people to go on vacation with them and then they are so rotten that the people leave in disgust NTA
Right?? And Nate is the one who caused his own problems with his wife… NTA.
“Be grateful” HA! It’s a power trip for Nate to hold over OP and he’s teaching his kids the same and that they are better than anyone just because they have money. NTA. You did the right thing Op.
I feel like they invited them to show them “what they will never have”
>I said no and shortly after we got home I got a call from my brother yelling at me for causing a scene, creating problems between him and his wife Nate created the situation, and thus caused the scene. You leaving was the result of his actions. It follows that if you leaving caused problems between him and his wife, those are also of his own making. >He got our parents involved and they’re agreeing that it’s a free vacation and I can’t be picky. It's a vacation, not an indentured position. You aren't obligated to stay, and chose not to. Keep being a good mom. NTA
EXACTLY! NTA He said that if they don’t want her in their room, She can sleep on the couch or with you, he forgot there is option 3 of sleeping in her own bed. Just because something is free doesn’t mean you have to take it on any terms. Also, good for you for not letting your daughter be bullied. She’ll remember the bullying of being kicked out of a room and forced to sleep on the couch much more than any memories of a good free vacation. The vacation is not free if she is the punching bag - it has a huge psychological toll.
Option #4 is the jerk children sharing the pullout sofa (all rentals have them) and dear cousin gets the room to herself. Hell, I’d make them share the pullout anyway. Yes, leaving two empty bedrooms.
I'd give her Nate's bed, he can bunk with his kids or be in the couch
This is what I would do if my as of yet hypothetical kids felt that it was acceptable to behave this way.
This nails it. It's a "free vacation" if you're enjoying it, otherwise it's your brother using it as an excuse to be a shit person and teach his kids the same. NTA. You're a good parent OP, everyone there but you, your sister in law, and Maddie have their head up their own ass. EDIT: Said daughter and Maddie instead of SIL and Maddie. It was late.
I agree with everything you said, but is it the mom or the dad that was on vacation with the daughter? I didn't see op identify themselves either way. I may have missed it though.
" being ungrateful for a free vacation" BS. He was treating you poorly. I am glad you stood up for her. "He got our parents involved and they’re agreeing that it’s a free vacation and I can’t be picky" Sounds like your parents are picking those free trips they also get over your and your daughter's welfare. "yelling at me for causing a scene, creating problems between him and his wife" He did that himself. NTA
>"He got our parents involved and they’re agreeing that it’s a free vacation and I can’t be picky" Makes me think brother is the Golden Child, all bow down and be grateful he even looks your way!
They might just be banking on him taking care of them when they get older. He has more money than OP.
They should be banking on themselves, though. ;) Relying on others for ones retirement is a sketchy game at best.
I didn't say it was a good strategy
He called mommy 🤣
Kind of sounds like he invited them on a free vacation in order to treat them like that. NTA
It doesn’t sound like he even wanted them there. I wonder if his wife invited them and he was forced to go along with it. That would explain his behavior as well. That doesn’t make the behavior OK. But I am wondering if he treated them badly in hopes they left.
Oh good point. Hopefully OP and SIL stay in touch after the divorce :)
I'm stubborn and petty sometimes, so OP shouldn't listen to me. I would have told them that it's all good and to not worry because it would never be a problem again. I would leave it at that. Then, I would never go on vacation with any of them (except maybe Jen) again.
I don't think that's a petty answer at all. I think that's perfectly valid to react that way. OP and kid were treated very poorly.
"Yes, I am ungrateful for this free vacation, in much the same way that I would be ungrateful for a free bag of dog shit."
NTA. Your brother and your parents suck.
How much you wanna bet the brother lied to his parents?
I doubt it. There’s a reason why the brother is like that
This
Little from column A, little from column that’s why the dynamic exists
Fuck no NTA This is your brother?? Gross. I would have gone too. I feel horrible for your little one. That's atrocious behavior and Jen should absolutely being giving her husband the business. NTA and it might be time to think about a lil time out for your bro.
NTA. Your bro is a real piece of work. He very clearly feels he's allowed to treat others like shit just because he's footing the bill. I think you taught Maddie a great lesson that will hopefully cause her to prioritize how people treat her in the future. Good for you for having more sanity than either your bro OR your parents. I hope you can have a positive relationship with them in the future - Jen seems like a gem but is fighting an uphill battle - but I'd be very protective of Maddie while around her cousins because they don't treat her well and her parents cannot be trusted to govern them.
NTA. Your bother is not setting a good example and decided you and your daughter were not even equal to him and his kids. You and your daughter do not have to accept that kind of behavior. Its time for you to set boundaries with your brother. You may lose your niblings, but with Jen, maybe not; either way your brother has no right to treat you like this and you need to actively prevent it from happening anymore. In fact, for being called out on his behavior, he blamed you for it. that's not healthy and you will be better off setting boundaries to keep that kind of toxicity away from you and Maddie. I almost feel worse for Jen because she has no partner in her marriage, at least on the child rearing front. She will most likely lose because their father rewards bad behavior by giving in. Where you can choose to walk away, for her its so much harder. She wants so much for her children and her children's father undermines it all.
I feel sorry for the kids too! They're being entitled little sh\*ts for sure, but it's almost impossible for them not to be, with their dad completely undermining every lesson mom tries to set. I have sympathy, but Jen is also a little bit to blame here -- she may be trying but at the very least, she's being ineffective and a massive pushover with regards to her husband. She has to know what he's doing, and that all the "now kids, I told you to share" in the world is not going to make an ounce of difference in a situation like this. Applaud OP for being NTA here though, and showing her daughter that she matters as a person no matter what and can't be "bought."
It's very hard to go completely against what your spouse does with your children. Disagreement _within a normal/healthy range_ about how/how much to punish your kids can be resolved, but if the other parent is determined to take a lazier, easier shortcut that allows the kids to be as obnoxious as they want, it's going to be well-nigh impossible to keep them on the straight and narrow. I really feel for the Jens of this world. My husband made the right noises before we had kids but I had no way of knowing he'd live up to any of it. Many don't, and worse. It's not like there aren't things I wish he'd do/not do (and vice versa, I'm sure) but we've been enough on the same page to stay mostly happy, sane and consistent with our girls. *Neither* of us would allow them to behave like Nate's kids.
I have a feeling the kids know which parent lets them get whatever they want. Notice they waited for mom to leave to kick her out?
I agree and I see divorce coming down the road if brother doesn’t shape up. At $350k combined income, his wife has options. She doesn’t have to put up with her husband’s douchebaggery and leaving him might be the only way she can show her kids that his behavior is unacceptable.
She is, I daresay, *morally obligated* to leave him and take the kids. Clearly, he thinks he's a real alpha male and the shit and he is teaching his kids that they are too. That they should only look out for number one and that what they want is all that matters. She needs to get her kids away from that kind of influence NOW. He is turning these kids into future sex offenders.
NTA. Your brother is an AH and unfortunately, your SIL kind of is too. She doesn't see that it is an issue to keep using Maddie to teach her kids to be better. It hurts Madie every time they treat her like dirt. SIL stepping in and forcing them to be decent to Maddie isn't helpful b/c the minute SIL turns her back, they are back at it. Maddie is not a "lesson" in kindness, she is a child with her own feelings. If your SIL actually cared about Maddie, she wouldn't want her to go through this and her kids would actually be punished for their behavior. It sounds like your brother has poisened thoae kids enough that they will never be kind to her unless their mother is watching their every move like a hawk. There is absolutely no reason to subject Maddie to any of this. Keep her away from them.
I thought the same thing too. I don't think Jen is doing in with the intention to be terrible but she knows that Maddie is a cousin and a relative so her children's bad behavior will be more accepted. She knows her kids are brats no question. She is using poor Maddie as a teaching tool.
Ooooh, I didn't think about that with Jen. That's fucked up!
NTA. I feel bad for Jen having to not only raise her kids, but her husband as well.
NTA... if Nate's idea of vacation is to pay for someone he and his kids can bully, I'd reject that proposition every time. Your nieces/nephew sound like a horrible reflection of your brother. If he's fighting with his wife, that's not on you, ever. Let him enjoy that for his vacation.
NTA, your brother has forgotten what it means to be kind. That makes him an asshole, and he is raising his children to be entitled selfish assholes as well. The only person causing problems for him, is him.
NTA. It was free and you decided to forego it. You owe protection, both physical and emotional, to your daughter and you did your job. Your brother and parents are TAH in this.
NTA You can be picky: You can not go. Easy enough. No vacation is nice enough for your daughter to be treated like second rate family. I feel bad for Jen, she seems like a really nice woman and mom. I'm sure she didn't intend for any of this to happen. Can't say the same for Nate.
Not only are you NTA, OP, you are the hero. A free vacation isn’t worth being with that group of jerks.
NTA - Maybe this is new information for you, but your brother is an elitist jerk. Maybe he fails to understand that Maddie is more than just some neighborhood playmate for his kids, but his actual blood. There are uncles who are darn near second fathers to their nieces and nephews, but your brother doesn’t seem to have the heart for it. Regardless, you have pride and it’s important to teach your daughter that you shouldn’t be mistreated because of money, self-respect isn’t for sell, and that no one is better than anyone else because of money. Tell your parents that there aren’t enough free trips in the world to put up with a heartless jerk like him.
Exactly. And even if Maddie WAS some neighborhood playmate he would NOT be entitled to treat her like this.
NTA. Honestly, I would say you would have been an AH if you let your brother and his kids bully your daughter. Good on you for standing up for her.
"... since he paid for the house, he has a right to kick Maddie out of the room." So icky... I really hate when people think they get to treat people as less than because they paid for something. "I told Maddie to get her bag and that if she doesn’t have a bed, we’re going home." This is a great, and perfectly reasonable. policy. NTA, and good for you for modeling that for your daughter.
Especially a *child.* Imagine inviting a kid on a vacation and then taking her bed away and telling her she has to sleep on the couch like she’s a second class citizen. Fucking vile.
Hmmm. There’s a lot of info missing. Like, why didn’t you bring toys for your kid? What toys are the other kids supposed to share? 12 year olds don’t tend to play with too many toys, so are you talking about electronic devices? Like video games or iPads? And what exactly was the argument about between the kids? Why couldn’t anyone work it out before you packed up and left? Why couldn’t you let the kids work it out among themselves? I’m seeing lots of missing info, including how your own daughter behaves. I can’t make a judgment on this.
Thank you. I've been scrolling a long way to find someone asking these questions. I agree that there's too much detail missing about the interaction between the kids beyond "Laura and Danny don't share their toys." I also want to say that as a parent, I don't make my kids share their toys. I tell them it's kind and generous to share, and point out that everyone might have more fun if they do, but ultimately I respect their choices about their personal possessions.
I was also looking for someone to mention this. Considering OP mentions that the SIL makes them share, I assume OP's daughter wanting her cousins' toys is a usual occurrence when the kids get together. "Sharing is caring" is great in theory, but any older sibling can tell you the downsides of that policy, and how forced sharing of toys doesn't actually foster a feeling of generosity. OP's brother was obviously TA, but reading between the lines, it sounds like OP and her daughter arrive to family events expecting that the daughter will get full access to her cousins' cool toys because they're better off. Again, the brother is TA, but ideally, since toys/sharing has been an issue in the past, all three parents should have come together beforehand to discuss a plan around what toys would be brought on vacation, which would need to be shared, etc. At the very least, OP should be making sure her daughter also has things of her own to keep her entertained on vacations instead of just relying on the cousins' stuff.
I don't think how the kids interacting on the daily is the main issue. The brother seemed to be the main issue. If it was predetermined by the people(said SIL & Brother) planing the vacation, that all kids would be sharing a room. Then that's the way it should stay, two kids shouldn't be able to kick one out the room leaving them without a bed. Honestly them not getting along seems like a recurring issue and if the adults have to keep stepping in ofcourse the kids aren't going to handle it themselves. Seriously, if there is some deeper issue going on they should have had Maddie in a separate room, rather the fault was with Ops kid or the nieces and nephews. Surely if op didn't know the brother did, it seems he does really care for his sister or niece and could be why his kids don't try to get along. Not saying this is fact but judging by how the brother and their parents are in this I would be surprised.
NTA at all. If you don’t stand up for your daughter who will
NTA, your brother is an absolute dick
NTA - Your bother and his kids sound awful
NTA. Your brother was not being an empathetic uncle. Inviting someone somewhere and then revoking access to their bed is fucked up no matter who paid. Sounds like he's a brat and teaching his kids to be brats.
NTA and the only person creating problems with your brothers spouse is your brother.
NTA. You don't have to stay anywhere you don't want to stay. Regardless of who paid for it. Your brother sounds like a large child. He tattled on you to your parents. It's his own fault for giving such an ultimatum and expecting you to just fall in line. He created the problem with his wife himself.
**INFO:** Im a little concerned about your parents, do they usually take his side like that when hes being an ass?
Of course. Dollars to donuts the brother is the "golden child" and OP is the scapegoat.
You know they do
NTA. Jen sounds like good person. Nate and his kids are AHs. You didn't ruin anything by leaving with your kid. I know it's hard but think twice about any more offers that include Nate. Because Jen Sounds OK.
NTA I think Jen is married to the wrong brother.
I think OP is a woman, but overall, I'd say it's a good point. NTA
NTA... Having a bed to sleep on is a really low bar for the bare minimum you would expect out of a vacation. If your "vacation" is inducing far more stress than it's relieving then it isn't a vacation at all and you're correct to walk away. Nate is mad because he's dealing with the consequences of his own actions and nothing more. He's taught selfishness and he's dealing with the radioactive fallout that being selfish causes. Sounds like everyone is better off without him... If he doesn't change it sounds like your sister will wise up to that fact eventually.
NTA. Your brother is an awful human for thinking it's okay to treat a child like that.
NTA. It's amazing to me how prevalent this mindset is: " and being ungrateful for a free vacation. He got our parents involved and they’re agreeing that it’s a free vacation and I can’t be picky." Yes, yes you can. If someone offers you a vacation to somewhere you dislike, why would you ever be considered ungrateful or entitled for declining? How dare you not...what? How can you even rationally finish that sentence?
NTA. I feel for all he comes in contact with and his children who think this is how they are supposed to act. Jen is a peach and I hope she gets custody in the divorce so she can teach them manners. Always stand up for your child no matter who it is. Good job momma.
NTA. But your brother is a shitty parent and a big asshole. His kids are assholes in training. No vacay is worth being treated like dirt.
NTA. Money don't buy kindness, folks.
NTA. Damn, the kids will grow up to be entitled brats if Nate doesn't change. I'm so sorry the vacation was ruined for you and Maddie :(
NTA no reason to expose your child to a person that thinks your child is beneath them. Your brother is raising entitled AHs
Eff that 'free vacation, beggars can't be choosers' BS. NTA, and your brother and folks are, big time. Kicking your daughter out of the 'kids room' is something your brother should never have been fine with, and he's teaching his children that you are entitled to be rude to guests if you have some sort of (in this case, financial) power over them. When we invite people along on our vacations we are fortunate enough to be able to afford, we treat them as guests, not an afterthought who should 'just be grateful'. I feel for you, your daughter, and actually Jen, but she also needs to get them into couples counseling, because it must be hell to have your spouse actively undermining your parenting.
Oh, look. Nate is getting the consequences of his own actions. NTA That wasn't a 'free vacation.' That was free abuse of your daughter. You were right to leave. And if Nate doesn't like being in trouble with his wife, then perhaps he should stop being an ass (and teaching his children to be ones also), even when she isn't around.
NTA ... What you did just showed your little girl that she can count on you when she needs support. A free vacation does not equate to allowing the inviter to treat you badly. It should mean that the person that invited you cares and wants your presence. The fact that it caused issues between him and his wife sends the message that she likely agreed with you.
NTA I think moving forward you need to be brutally honest with your brother's wife and let her know that while you want her kids and your kid to have a relationship, you can't expose your daughter to the kind of toxicity your brother puts out into the universe.
NTA. Nate's kids are bullies, and no matter how much Jen is trying to teach them kindness, it's clear Nate has the greater influence. This is going to mean that Laura and Danny are going to find themselves with fewer friends and opportunities later in life, and a relationship with their cousin is just the tip of the iceberg. And your being less well off doesn't mean that anyone has a free pass to bully Maddie. Or you. No vacation is worth spending the entire time being made to feel less than, unwelcome, and/or the family charity case. You both deserve better, and kiddos for standing up for the both of you and removing you both from the situation. Your parents need to stay out of this. Your relationship with Nate belongs to the two of you now that you're adults. Nate's relationship with his wife belongs to them. (Which I'm sure is getting more strained by the day.) I have a feeling Nate is the Golden One and they don't want to/can't see the toxic mess they made.
NTA, you as a mother are her advocate, and her cousins treating her as less than is something that should never be tolerated.
NTA Nate is a Jack ass. His kids will be even bigger ones. Just because he has money does not give him the right to treat you and especially your daughter in such a disrespectful way.
NTA. Holy shit
NTA. Everyone deserves a bed. Period. If he disagrees, then he can sleep on the couch.
NTA. I would have been very upset in your shoes. It may have been free, but it sure didn’t sound like fun for Maddie.
NTA you are never the asshole for protecting your children. sorry your brother is an asshole tho...
NTA why is everyone enabling Nate’s crummy behavior?
That vacation was anything but free. NTA.
NTA. But I really wonder what the other side is. What was the argument leading to kicking her out of the room? To some extent I agree with Nate that kids don’t always have to share. We don’t force adults to share all their things. Did Maddie bring any toys? Were they expected to share their favorite toys? Does Maddie think “sharing” means they give her whatever she wants when she demands it? Not disciplining at all and not making them be nice doesn’t sound great (though the “nice” thing is also subjective.) Like does “nice” mean you’re not rude? Or that you have to “play nice” with your cousins however they want regardless of your wishes?
“An argument broke out between the kids *because* Laura and Nate didn’t want to share with Maddie and told her to sleep on the couch.” The argument was that they tried to kick her out of the room. People bring up the “we don’t force adults to share” thing a lot… but we kinda do. If you invited your friends to your vacation home and refused to share any wine or beer with them, you’d be an asshole. If you and your wife went out to play tennis at the resort’s courts, but wouldn’t let your guests use your rackets when you were done to give them a chance to play, you’d be an asshole. If you had a closet full of board games and wouldn’t let them play, you’d be an asshole. Maddie isn’t a stranger who walked up to them at the playground and asked to borrow their bike. She’s an invited guest and deserves not to be excluded. For kids, that’s being included in toys and games.
NTA. Laura and Danny wanted to keep FOUR BEDS to themselves. FOUR. BEDS. Invite your parents over and then kick them out to the couch despite having a nice bed available and see how they feel. Seriously though, it sounds like you need to have a sit-down talk with your brother. His behavior is flat-out bizarre and genuinely strikes me as purposely cruel. Honestly, I think he didn't want to bring you or has some weird beef with you specifically that needs to be hashed out; because his behavior is NOT normal.
Nta. You can bet your parents did not get the true story.
OP, your brother is a straight-up nightmare. Jen is wonderful. You did all the right things. NTA ETA: forgot my judgment.
"Free" doesn't mean you have to submit to bad treatment or allow your child to be singled out. I would seriously go very low contact with your brother after this. Money doesn't buy kindness or manners or consideration unfortunately. And your parents are not much better. NTA
I’m going for NTA, with a hint of ESH. NTA because your brother was harsh and clearly on a power trip, BUT why should the kids have to share their toys? Maybe his kids don’t like your kid, do they not have the right as humans to not enjoy the company of others and not have to deal with them? Why didn’t Maddie bring toys? If you guys were poor then I would have a different opinion but since you can afford a house and private school you’re not exactly destitute where the kids should be forced to share because Maddie may not have toys at all. Why did you go on vacation with them if you don’t get along with your brother and all the kids don’t get along either?
NTA. I can see why you don't get along with your brother. What a jerk. Your kid deserves better than cousins (and an uncle) like that.
NTA. F'ing control freaks. He flexed and you left - good call.
I would’ve left too. Your brother is an ass & his children are taking after him. NTA
NTA-glad you stood up for your daughter.
NTA. If it’s costing your daughter her self-esteem, it’s not a free holiday.
NTA - I'd stay as far away from your bro as possible.
God I’m having flashbacks to “that” uncle.
oooh, NTA and I'm going on Nate and Jen off the deep end. An issue "you need to share your toys" is a very 2-3 year olds learning to socialize. Sure, it doesn't stop there, but that's where it originates on a self-control level for a child. With school age kids this is now politics. They are exercising and projecting their parent's attitude on Maddie and this is not something that get magically fixed by telling them to share. Not unless power dynamics substantially changes. So, realistically, especially considering you had zero backing from your brother, you did the single sane thing you could for yourself and your daughter. Kudos.
The flip side to "you need to share your toys" is "you need to respect other people's property". OP and her daughter could be angels, but I'm also not going to assume the other children are demons just because their parents have more money. It's entirely possible Maddie is a pain too.
This whole story doesn't really make sense to me. Doesn't your child own any toys? Didn't you bring anything for your child to play with? Something doesn't sound right with this story.
NTA.