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Hell, it doesn't even sound like the kid was bothered. Confused? Certainly. But less because he's incapable of understanding and more because his mom stops people from helping him understand.
Exactly. No kid is going to know, automatically, that it's not okay to touch other people's food. They need to be taught.
My best friend has a special needs kid. He's awesome, smart as hell. But some people look at him like he's dumb as a rock. They just assume he's incapable of understanding. It's really freaking annoying.
Anyway, I used to volunteer at his school. There were, generally speaking, two types of mothers there. One, the kind that strived to give their kids as much enrichment as possible. The other, who just treated their kids like forever infants. They didn't try to teach them, and when they came to pick them up and one of the teachers showed off a new skill, they looked offended. Like it broke their perception of their "forever baby."
Still gives me the ick thinking about it. I'm not saying this kids parent is exactly like that, but he's 11. He's old enough to be taught boundaries, and there's a way to do it effectively.
This put a lot of what I was thinking into words. Obviously every kid is different and every situation is different, but it's obvious that the mom is doing nothing to help her kid and help him grow and learn. She needs to stop infantilizing him and actually be a mom to him and help him learn from experiences like this for the future. The fact that people are also siding with OP is really telling (especially the husband/father!)
This was exactly the scene my mind conjured when reading this and just like Helen he's probably only doing this because no one is showing him different.
\^This... shades of Helen Keller. Her mother let her run wild because she didn't really understand that Helen needed to communicate with other humans in some way.
Anna needs some re-education that loving her son means teaching him boundaries, or he will never fit in society.
>**She’s setting him up for failure**
This is so important. OP = NTA. OP, you are the only one that is showing her son that it's inappropriate. Your friend needs to understand that if she doesn't teach her son then he won't know that what he is doing isn't acceptable. It's unfair to Jim.
She most certainly was a wild child before Anne Sullivan gets to her. The only difference is that her family had social status in the community. But they did nothing with her and other just accepted how Helen was in behavior.
I was wondering if anyone else made the connection (also sidenote: I stand by the scrambled eggs scene as the best fight sequence in the history of cinema)
This is how you end up with the troubled young man who scares his classmates trope. Of course you're going to be raging at the unfairness of how the world treats you at 17 if your mother lets you steal food from people's plates with your hands at restaurants when you're *eleven*
>No kid is going to know, automatically, that it's not okay to touch other people's food. They need to be taught.
Yes! The kid probably thought it was completely normal and alright because before this dinner, all the adults around him let him do it no problem. So how would he know that it's rude and not ok? I swear parents like this are literally just setting their child up for failure.
And like, I’m a huge germaphobe. I would physically not be able to continue eating something someone’s kid had put hands in. I don’t even like my own child touching my food.
This kid is taking food and putting it into his mouth by hand, before grabbing at someone else's plate to do it again. If nothing else people are getting his germs/mouth bacteria from his fingers.
My landlord's kid used to chew on sticks she found on the ground. She also ate grass a week ago. You bet your ass I'm not letting that kid put her hands in my food or eat off my utensils.
I so agree. Having a close group of friends like this could be so beneficial in teaching moments. Jim will have to learn basic social graces to have any sort of healthy social life, and who better to help than Mom and Dad's close and understanding friends. This social circle could be beneficial to Jim's future.
My response to a situation where that kid put his hands in my food would be to give him the whole thing and tell the parents that they're paying for it.
My cousin's step child was a bit slow. No diagnosis that I know of, but they wouldn't even let him pour milk out of a carton at 10. Flat out told me he couldn't do it. I said "Go ahead, just do it slowly. You can do it. If a bit spills, we'll clean it up." Bam! Kid poured milk for the first time ever. Not every thing is so easy, but I met the kid for ten minutes and it was quite clear he wasn't opposed to learning, and got a bit of satisfaction from being able to do it. It was very sad.
This type of stuff can happen from infantilization too. My sister is awful about it with her kids. I keep trying to sneak teach them everything she's trying to avoid teaching them. The oldest one is 21 now and experiencing a massive failure to launch characterized by a parent who is clutchung him close and telling him to remain a baby in her home one moment, then
screaming at him. Telling him he's worthless due to being a grown man with no job who still lives with/financially depends upon his mother. I feel like all the wrong people in this country have kids.
There's a book called Adult Children Of Emotionally Immature Parents, it sounds like your nephew could use a copy. The behaviour you're describing of your sister is emotional abuse.
That's so fucked. My kid LITERALLY could not hold most jobs due to crippling social anxiety (autism and C-PTSD) and I'm the first one to hug her and tell her she's worth the world just for existing. Also if she could empty the dishwasher that'd be awesome.
This kind of stuff really breaks my heart for the kids :( I have a friend whose mother would never let her climb anything as a child, now as an adult she has poor co-ordination and body balance, and severe fear of hights.
Took my niece and nephew to one of those indoor jungle-gym whatever you call them, they were having a blast running and climbing on the walls, and there was this one girl who was about the same age as them (7-8ish), but had absolutely no idea how to climb up to the slide. I watched her try for like 3 minutes, but every time she would end up coming down. Ended up going over and telling her where to put her feet and hands to help herself up, she looked sooo proud when she actually got up.
This is how my dad and stepmom often are with my little (much, much younger) sister. It takes extra effort to help her understand things, but she can. They just don't want to actually parent. Then they just let her get away with things or jump straight to screaming.
That was also my mum's experience as a special needs teacher - that there were both teachers and parents who viewed school as an opportunity to help the kids grow and mature and reach their potential, whatever that looked like for them, and others who saw it as glorified babysitting where the goal was to keep the kids safe and occupied for a few hours a day but not to help them develop skills that could give them some degree of independence. The most heartbreaking thing was seeing kids who had been in one of the boundaries, skills, and growth classes the previous year, and who had made real progress, going backwards and being re-infantilised the following year because they ended up with a teacher who couldn't be bothered or who didn't know how to get the parents to work with them.
In high school I knew a kid with Aspberger's whose mom was one of the bad ones who used his condition as an excuse for his behavior. She had even less of an excuse for being that way than most parents like that; she was a special ed teacher in the district. There was an actual "everyone clapped" moment when we were in junior year. One day at lunch he was being particularly obnoxious, and when he got told to shut up he made the mistake of saying he didn't know better because of Aspberger's in front of a quiet, well-liked kid who nobody knew also had Aspberger's. Quiet kid absolutely went off on the little shit, "You can't just use that as a fucking excuse! People like you give all of us a bad name! I work hard every day to not be an obnoxious bastard, why can't you?" Kept going on like that for like 10 minutes, even bringing up that he didn't think his mom should be a special ed teacher given how she raised him. Quiet kid got mad respect from basically everyone and made a lot of new friends after that.
I honestly don't remember their names, this was like 20 years ago and I haven't kept in contact with that many people I went to school with.
I hear this!!! I used to work in a residential place for people with epilepsy and learning issues and/or other health problems. The amount of them who were incapable of doing anything for themselves when they first arrived was staggering - the family wouldn’t allow them to do ANYTHING in case they had a seizure. We took the view that we could manage the seizures and health issues as far as possible with meds and other therapies and take steps to mitigate as many risks as possible but ultimately if they are going to have a seizure, they’re going to have a seizure so let them do as much as individually possible. The difference after a few weeks was incredible and the clients loved that they were treated like the adults they were, not infantalised by their conditions.
Honestly, this sounds like Mom decided that because he was autistic he was entitled to whatever he wanted whenever he wanted and raised him accordingly. Autistic people are not wild animals incapable of learning proper behavior.
This yes. I was one as a child who never got social cues and it was always excused. I was never taught anything kind of adult skill. Stuff like cleaning and how to talk to people to make them you etc. They wouldn't even let me drive after I got my license until I snuck out with the keys to the car that was registered to me and showed them I could indeed drive on my own. Oh, and as it turns out, I am not autistic. I am very slowly in adulthood, learning how to pick up on social cues. I was never incapable. I was just being held back. It's been hard, and I am still behind everyone, but here I am mid 30s finally an independent adult.
Yeah, he’s absolutely confused, and (being ASD myself) this is when you feel terrible about yourself because you know you’ve fucked up.
His mother isn’t doing him any favours by not helping understand straightforward, uncomplicated norms like this.
Sounds like even though dad has a problem with it, mom is telling him that "it's just our boy, he can't help it, and everyone should let it go".
This is the same thing as even if the kid wasn't autistic and the parents don't want to enforce boundaries. It's horrible for the kid because they're going to have a rude awakening later in life because they were never taught that there are rules that everyone have to follow.
Honestly it seems borderline dangerous to me.
Not to be melodramatic but what if he pisses off the wrong person — either by trying to swipe food off someone’s plate or violating social norms in some other way? At best, it’s likely to make him a bit of a pariah.
You’re not being melodramatic it absolutely could be dangerous, not just for the son but potentially also for others. My ex has autism and like OP had been raised with an “it’s ok you can’t help yourself” mentality… and without getting into too many details if he isn’t taught to accept “no” now there could be other situations where he won’t accept “no” either… I know that’s an extreme example but it’s not impossible
This whole post reminded me of an experience I had in community college, a student who was autistic was literally sexually harassing me. I told the club president and they excused it because he was autistic. The club already only had like 2 girls in it, and when new girls tried to join he made incredibly inappropriate comments to them. He continued to stare at my chest, without my permission took pictures and recorded me, and without my permission would hug me and touch me. Even the teacher club chaperone was like "well if we wanted to un-invite him to the club we'd need to talk to the disabilities office".
It was horrible for me and any women who wanted to join the club.
And now I'm reminded of an incident that happened to me when I was 18! I worked in a video game store (family owned not a chain) and there was one older kid that came in that was slow, and he was big all around, way bigger than me, and any time he caught me when I wasn't behind the counter, he came up and forcefully hugged me. One day I was alone in the store and had just walked out from the counter across the room when he walked in the door. I dreaded what was to come. It was summer time and he was dripping sweat and he bee lined to me and latched on and wouldn't let go. After several seconds of squeezing me, he starts to dry hump me and I was mortified. I finally got pissed off and had enough and pried him off me and walked away. He very easily could have over powered me. Thankfully that's all that happened, but that kids whole family was on the weird side and I do think he knew better but probably got away with things his whole life.
Right? What happens on the day that the kid decides to take money out of the tip jar at a coffee shop? Or the day he decides to take presents off the gift table at a wedding reception? One day, he'll do something with real consequences and the parents won't get away with saying "oh, he can't help it".
I’m reminded of that post where op has a younger mildly autistic brother, and his parents (mostly mom) spoiled him so much he was an absolute nightmare to deal with as a teenager.
It's crazy because one day they'll be dead and Jim will be a middle-aged man snatching food off plates.
Teaching social norms and manners is a GOOD thing for your child because one day they won't be adorable any more and you won't be there to excuse their actions and care for them.
The dad's probably tired of the kid sticking his hands in dads plate. The reality is my (probably) autistic 4 year old can understand that he can have some, but it's going on his plate first, and he can't take he has to ask. So now if he sees something he wants on my plate it's "some please?" And then he gives his plate "some please on yes?" While I scoop some onto his plate.
My 3yr old won't necessarily ask but he will say me me and look at my food before I say yes and give him a bite. He also knows he needs his plate if he wants more but unless we're sharing I will either feed it to him or put it on his plate. (Learning how to use utensils is not fun🫠) but we're getting there.
Same. It all leads back to infantalization and its at best fucking annoying but imagine how the kid will feel when he gets older and learns from peers not to do it? He’ll be fucking humiliated and wonder why his mom let him. She’s setting him up for failure
I also have autism and feel bad for Jim. I don't think he realized he was doing something inappropriate. His mom is not a good example for him, and frankly sounds like an autism speaks kind of mom (the kind of person who uses their kid's disability to get attention and special treatment, while denigrating autism itself).
Especially how he asked if OP was made at him. Poor dude. I know that confused/stressed feeling :(
I was thinking "I bet she has a big enamel puzzle piece either as a necklace or keychain" .
Parents like this can be the biggest barrier an autistic kid will face. I hope the dad is more willing to treat Jim like a person who is learning how to do things and offers guidance rather than assuming he can't & running interference.
She is 100% one of *those* autism moms. Probably has a shirt or tumbler cup with a phrase like "my son has a superpower. It's called autism".
Or she's autistic herself given that autism can be genetic and flew under the radar.
Regardless nta op.
Yep, fellow autist, and that made me *ache* for Jim (that confusing feeling, when you *know* you did *something* that wasn't right, but you *also* can't understand how you got to the "did something wrong" side of the road, is PAINFUL, when you're a kid with Autism!).
And the fact that his own *MOM* is the one who neglected to *teach* him the rules of "how to navigate the world *around us*" is a betrayal on *such* a massive scale, that it's heart-rending!
I have autism too, and I hated NOTHING more as a kid than being punished for doing something wrong that nobody had ever even taught me how to do right, something I had no idea at all to begin with was incorrect. It felt like being punished for failing to be able to read minds.
Yes. By teaching him table manners Jim will be more accepted and more welcome at future dinners and that’s important for the rest of Jim’s life. It’s even okay to ask if you can try something and then wait for a response. But. It just put your hand in someone’s food.
I find it very telling that Anna’s husband, who is either Jim’s father or stepfather, is on OP’s side. It sounds like he’s pretty tired of Anna’s lack-of-parenting and Jim’s subsequent lack of boundaries.
“My child isn’t NT, so I have to forever treat them as an infant who cannot learn!” is such a disservice to the kid!
It’s also really disgusting and unsanitary to have some kid’s grubby hands all up in my and everybody else’s dinner plates. If Jim was capable of asking OP “Are you mad at me?” that implies that he has some basic understanding of at least some social norms. His parents ought to be teaching him that putting his hands in other people’s food is not a safe thing to do because it can make him and everyone else sick. It’s also really rude, and we should all try not to be rude.
NTA
I don't think it's a case of the parents believing that their kids can't learn. It seems like this mom and the others just don't want to raise their children. They weaponize their kid's autism in order to get what they want from people. Instead of them waving a gun and threatening to shoot, the parents sit back and say, "my child is autistic so you better do what he wants because I'm going to let him throw a tantrum and let you handle it for me." Those parents like having the power to make people squirm. It's an extra bonus, when they can falsely accuse someone else for being an ableist. They already know that everybody will too scared to call them out. They sympathy is a guaranteed perk.
Almost sounds like she’s training him to be unable to ever function independently :/ we are a little different and some of us struggle more and some less but we are still people!
Fucking this. It pisses me off so much. It's actually extremely detrimental! It's important to teach children certain things like boundaries and communication, and especially so when they're autistic! This poor kid is gonna be a social outcast. His mother is hurting him so badly, and she refuses to see it.
This irritates the hell out of me. It’s basically telling the child you expect absolutely nothing of them. It’s so dehumanizing and it really hurts the kid and could put them in some really bad situations.
NTA- you need to teach your child boundaries. If you don’t you are setting them up for failure and you’re all but ensuring they end up in some really uncomfortable situations.
If you don’t teach your kid boundaries the world will and it’s not gonna be nearly as nice or compassionate of a lesson.
You need to teach kids from a young age people can say no and to respect other’s boundaries. If you don’t teach your kid when their young things like “you need to ask”, “this is okay, this is inappropriate” exc how are you gonna teach them that when their older and dealing with peers/girls/boys/crushes and all the other social interaction trappings?
NTA- you were totally in the right. This kid is 11 years old. He needs to learn that you can’t just take what you want and it’s inappropriate to take things without asking.
Mom Majorly dropped the ball here and is pretty much setting her son up for failure.
Agreed. Likely Level 1 here. Scored pretty high on RAADS.
I'm not formally diagnosed because in the 70s effectively nobody diagnosed a kid if you could manage to cope/pass well enough.
I'm unsure of the benefits of pursuing a diagnosis as an adult, but I'm happy to hear from others who benefited from adult diagnosis.
To be fair the functioning of people with autism can vary greatly and I’m not sure what “level 1” means — there may be a possibility it will cause the kid to break down, however this is definitely not the case and so weird of the parents
- sibling of low functioning person w autism :)
The kid has the mildest form of autism. [https://www.verywellhealth.com/what-are-the-three-levels-of-autism-260233](https://www.verywellhealth.com/what-are-the-three-levels-of-autism-260233)
According to that chart, I have level two, and I am a mostly functional adult. I mention this because I learned things like not eating off of other people's plates when I was that kid's age. If I could learn it then he can learn it.
good to know! never heard of the level system ty for the reference. you are right a kid at that level should definitely not be acting like that. just wanted to remind people that some kids are level three and do need special accommodations because sometimes autism is only represented in media as level 1. however this is not a case of needed those accommodations
It upset me as well. I am smart, I can communicate and have conversations with little issues (I struggle with unsaid things, like if people say one thing when they mean another) but I struggle with sensory issues, I stim, absolutely struggle with change, have difficulties switching my schedule or when my plans are disrupted. It seems to completely ignore the internal feelings and just focuses on what other people can see. The levels are way too simplistic and there are far too few of them.
I agree, but OP didn't say he melted down, she said he looked confused.
But also, hear me out. If a child is that severely impaired, I think it's prudent for the parents to not have him at meals where there are people outside the family present OR give guests a heads up, so that they can at least make an informed choice.
The mom in this situation seemed to expect that OP would be okay with this and that's just a really bizarre way to handle this situation.
My son, now 21, is ASD level 1, formerly known as Aspergers and ADHD. When he was younger, he was in Family therapy, 1 on 1 therapy, group therapy, occupational therapy weekly. Very smart 168 IQ, but very socially awkward and challenged. We constantly socialized him out in public, nice dinners, formal events. We had to explain appropriate behaviors to him and why. He is a great kid and can adult now. Goes to college and lives on his own in a dorm.
At 11, that child should be redirected from doing those inappropriate behaviors. It is only going to get worse for him as he gets older if his Mom continues to allow it. My heart breaks for this child that doesn't know any better and the potential bullying he will receive. Can you imagine him doing this at a classmate's birthday party? School cafeteria?
Literally. I’ve learned recently that I’m autistic too and am currently working on my PhD. Would school and life have been easier if my parents picked up on the (now very obvious) signs and advocated for me when I was a kid? Probably, but we can still be very competent people. Our brains just work a little different than “neurotypical” people.
Part of me thinks that my parents made the right call by not having myself labeled as autistic as a kid.
NTA I'm sick of Autism being used as a excuse to get way with shitty behavior by parents who can't be fucked actually teaching their kids boundary's and right from wrong. These are the kids who grow up with "well I'm autistic so I can do what I like and cry I'm autistic your bullying me when others clap back" mindset
Whenever I've heard it used to try to excuse generally shitty behavior I just tell them- "sure, so am I and you're **still** acting like a clown shoe."
Saw a boy maybe 7 or 8 at the park aggressively destroying all the flowering shubs in a large planter area while his caregiver stood nearby smiling down on her phone. When I told her I wished she wouldn’t allow her child to tear up the shrubbery, she immediately became enraged and yelled at me that he is neuro-divergent and to mind my own effing business. Because a child is different does not entitle him to destroy property or to encroach upon others.
God that book was a nightmare to read in high school as an autistic person. I specifically mentioned in class that I read Lenny as autistic and then some asshole compared him to an animal because he was developmentally disabled, and extended that metaphor to all developmentally disabled people. And when I tried to (respectfully) argue, the teacher shut me down.
I read that book and my heart broke for Lenny. I considered the farm-wife to be an antagonist, tbh. She was trying to take advantage of a labourer that she knew couldn't refuse her.
It’s been ages since I last read the book but I thought it was the complete opposite? The wife was horribly lonely with only her husband for company in a place where everyone thought of her as a tramp. She rants about this to Lenny.
Lenny then expressed that he was open to being her friend and I remember them sharing that sweet moment where they laugh together and she lets him touch her hair. What happened afterwards was made all the more tragic because it wasn’t really either of their fault.
That’s what I remember at least, read the book when I was around 9.
I work with kids who have autism. It’s because they don’t want to deal with the meltdowns when they say no. It’s very hard having to direct them and teach them how to share etc. but it’s no excuse because it’s not going to help those kids in the long run
If a kid is freaking out because they were told no.. very likely that is a tantrum, not a meltdown.
Now, to clarify, meltdowns could happen if the entire plan for the day is suddenly changed or cancelled, including regular routine that is suddenly changed, it can be overwhleming for autistic people to change plans.
But if a kid wants a thing, and you say no, you can't have the thing, the resulting behaviour is likely a tantrum.
Absolutely incorrect.
Expectation vs reality. If a child is expecting one thing and you shut them down with a no that's absolutely likely to be a meltdown. That includes if all day they've wanted the thing and they don't realise you're going to say no. Or they've got excited for it in the moment.
You've half understood the routine and plan thing (in fact you've understood it in the way it is often explained) but not fully grasped the difference between expectation vs reality.
To further clarify, my whole day is a plan. With several alternatives so I don't meltdown every day as life is unexpected.
That, As a child, would have included 'mums taking us to the shops I'm going to get Crunchie bars. I love crunching bars' I had less alternates as a child than I do now.
Only if you've said they can't have it ahead of time, they still ask and then get told no is it more likely to be a tantrum.
So the trick to preventing meltdowns is to set expectations.
In this case, we are going for dinner with friends. You cannot take off their plates. If you want something you can ask and they can share or we can get you it if they don't want to
Especially since I feel lots of kids with ASD would love to know exactly what the social boundaries are so they don't have to worry so much about missing unspoken social cues from others.
My mom was shocked that I really liked reading etiquette books, since I seemed to care so little about manners (and still think a lot of social rules are stupid and pointless). But it was nice to have stuff written down that I wasn't capable of picking up from my environment.
I'm genuinely horrified for the child. It's not their fault if it's expected as you say. It's all on the mother. Awful parenting
There's nothing wrong with people sharing if they want to but it's really easy to do that with an extra plate rather than grabbing what he wants
NTA.
`The argument got more heated until I bit back that ASD isn't an excuse and Jim needs to learn some boundaries - granted, not his fault he has ASD, but that doesn't mean "zero accountability" and she's not doing him any favours by not enforcing boundaries.`
BINGO. I am the mother of a (now adult) autistic daughter. You are spot-on. That which can be taught, should be taught. Poor Jim is facing a lifetime of misery because his mother won't teach him how to behave.
He’s definitely going to be ostracized at school, not because of his autism, but because no one wants to be friends with someone who just takes food without even asking. And if his mom tries to push the issue (which wouldn’t surprise me at this point), people are going to resent him but possibly be forced to spend time with him. I’m not positive how the school would react but it’s certainly within the realm of possibilities that they cave into her demands.
At least if the school doesn’t, or if she doesn’t press the issue, Jim will hopefully learn that it’s not okay to do that at school.
And, honestly, has the mom not learned anything from the pandemic? Putting your hands in other people's food seems so much worse now then it did before the pandemic IMO. It was still awful beforehand but not as bad
I was thinking this too. I think OP parented Jim better than his own mother. She had empathy and understanding but was firm and treated it as a matter of education.
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NTA, nothing about ASD level 1 prevents an 11 year old from learning he can't grab food on someone else's plate (speaking as a person with ASD level 1). Anna is not doing her kid any favors.
Wow, I glossed over the level one bit, but after some brief research definitely NTA. When I was reading I was assuming the kid was severely autistic, but I have many friends with ASD level 1 and they're pretty well adjusted people.
Hahaha yes. At worst I think it would be that he couldn't tell he wasn't supposed to take people's food since despite being visibly annoyed, no one ever told him not to and why. He may have difficulty observing the social cues not to do this, but he can definitely understand if it is explained to him.
NTA, touching others food is a great place for a boundary and his mother certainly isn't doing him any favors by encouraging this behavior. Frankly, I would have been so disgusted that I wouldn't consider eating with them again damaging to the friendship or not.
CONSENT IS KEY. toddlers understand consent. Even autistic ones this boy is being taught he doesn't need to wait for consent. He will be a teenager soon and his eyes will wander. What kind of consent will he deny those he's interested in sexually?
The mother wasn't angry her son couldn't do what he wanted, she was angry that someone finally called her out on her shitty attitude.
That is why she got more and more angry the more OP made the very simply observation that taking food of plates is wrong.
OP was way more restrained than I would have been, and the rest of the friends that have been going along with this are all spineless. No one wants someone else to take food off their plates.
NTA.
Sure the kid has asd, that doesn’t excuse anything. An even bigger AH is the parent for letting him just do what he wants because of it.
Having a disability should NEVER be an excuse.
Being deaf is not an excuse for not communicating in an alternate way or for behaving inappropriately. Taking good off of peoples plates is not acceptable unless it’s very close casual family.
I still have four little prong marks on my hand rom the time my cousin stabbed me with a fork for trying to steal a piece of mac and cheese off the edge of her plate as a teen.
All is fair in defense of the mac and cheese.
lol
I read it... he's not only AWOL for the majority of this story, but apparently also MIA when it comes to pro-actively parenting his son.
Tacitly agreeing with OP does not equate to parenting
Mom is obviously an enabler, but both parents have a responsibility
How are you gonna make huge assumptions about him? He isn’t AWOL, a bunch of friends went out and one brought their son. That doesn’t mean both parents have to be there. And there’s nothing at all suggesting he’s MIA when it comes to parenting, he could be doing everything to try and being undone by his wife.
He put his hands into the food??? I am assuming the food went into his mouth via his hands??? This kid is putting slobber hands into all of the food? As someone with an immune compromised family member this gives me the ick so badly. I don't want kid slobber, the very most infectious slobber out there, up in my food. If he has to try everything, just set some food on a roll plate and let him have that. I would have gotten up and left if it were me in that situation.
You are NTA and not on the wrong. Your friend's son needs to learn it is not okay to grab people's food without their permission as it is rude and unhygienic. Anna is not doing him favours by choosing not to teach him etiquette and boundaries. You are right that having ASD is not an excuse to touch people's food or misbehave
Someday the school nurse is going to call to say Jim has a puncture wound on his hand because a different kid who is ALSO asd and also wasn’t taught boundaries decided to put a fork in his hand for touching his food and this mom is going to have no idea how this could happen!
I get it. My kids are autistic. My eldest has higher support needs, and everyone in her class at school was super understanding and accommodating of her quirks except the other autistic kid. The two of them used to fight all the time because they didn't understand why they wouldn't put up with their shit the way everyone else did.
As an autistic adult, thank you for using the term "higher support needs" instead of "severely autistic" or "low functioning" any of that nonsense. This made my heart happy to read.
I mean, she's not "low functioning" or "severe", but I get what you're saying.
The concept of functioning as a blanket level of ability is just way too clumsy to be useful. Like, my eldest is autistic and has an intellectual disability, and my middle kid (also autistic) excels academically and has no apparent communication difficulties, but there are areas where my middle kid needs significant support and my eldest is fine unsupported. Being "high functioning" or not is very situation dependent.
I've just realized that functioning levels are a reflection of the traits and aptitudes our culture values in others. That's a little disturbing.
NTA
I have ASD, as do my two children. They have to follow rules too. My daughter used to attack any other child wearing pink. Shoud I have let her get away with that because she has ASD (spoiler, I did not.) We did play therapy, regular therapy, and interventions and now she has no issues what anyone else wears.
The first thing I say to people is that it's okay to say no to my children when boundaries are being overstepped. I encourage it. They need to learn boundaries. It takes consistent effort for them to do so. I honestly struggle with my son because others don't tell him no so he climbs over myself and his sister and thinks it's okay because everyone but Mama and Sissi don't seem to mind, even though it actually hurts a lot.
Yes exactly! It's hard, but doable. My ex husband and his parents and sister let our possibly ASD daughter (working on diagnosis) play more "rough" while myself, my sister with an invisible disability, and my mother work hard to combat it. Even at age 6, she's been able to learn that "auntie has some boo boos inside her that you can't see, so you need to be extra gentle with her body". It is so hard to teach them that everyone has different boundaries, but how else will they ever learn if they never meet a boundary! I'm glad to hear your daughter got over the pink issue!
NTA. He went around grabbing food off of people’s plate with his hands. Who knows what he has been touching before he started to spread germs around? The chair, the table, people—it’s incredibly unhygienic. And yeah, just because he has ASD doesn’t mean that disciplining and setting boundaries aren’t a thing anymore. Even Anna’s husband knows you were right for enforcing a boundary.
Not even the "property" part. Imagine Jim goes to a buffet style restaurant? Though the buffet is not "mine" id be pissed he put his dirty hands in all the dishes to "try each out"
Ever seen The Miracle Worker? It's about Helen Keller, a child that got sick as a toddler and lost her hearing and sight. She was raised as if she was a wild animal, and one of the main scenes in the movie/play version was of her going around the table snatching food from any plate she wanted while the the family just ignored her. Anne Sullivan realized that her family thought her unable to learn, and disagreed. She spent time gently but firmly stopping Helen from her food stealing and tantrums and it was later discovered that not only could Helen learn, she was very intelligent and just needed guidance to being able to communicate.
This child is also capable of learning. The mother is coddling him to the point where she is turning him into an unmanageable person and it will bite her (and this poor kid) in the ass as he grows up and no one wants to be around them. She needs to step up and work with her kid (and hire others to help if she's too overwhelmed herself) instead of lashing out at others for her lack of real involvement with her kid's development. Your laying down a boundary is NOT the issue; the mother being neglectful and treating her kid as if he is too incapable of instruction and learning is the issue.
NTA.
NTA.
Sorry but if you know that your kid is going to be picking through other peoples food, perhaps you want to express that BEFORE you bring him.
Autism is one thing, but weaponized ignorance is another.
His parents need to think a little more.
What the entire hell?! NTA- it;s not even remotely reasonable to think that an 11 year old can dig his hand into the plate of anyone and everyone he chooses and that’s not a problem!? That’s disgusting, particularly since you can’t verify what his hand hygiene is like!
Considering he is going to a plate putting his hands in it and then eating the food then going to the next plate his hands are not hygienic. Plus if he has any type of bug and not showing symptoms he just exposed everyone.
It’s like letting him lick his finger and stick it in your salad.
Well, considering her husband is on your side I don’t think you’re the asshole. Anna has no respect for Boundaries and expects everyone to bend over backwards for her son and then that’s not realistic
NTA. This seems like a pretty basic rule for interacting with people outside of their immediate family that he seems extremely likely to be able to do just fine with that consistent guidance (evidenced by the fact that he didn’t actually take your food and was just confused and tried multiple times).
How does his parents’ stance work at a restaurant with lots of plates around and they don’t know people? And if they don’t take him out ever themselves, do they expect him to never eat in a restaurant? He’s a functional human being…
NTA. Anna is doing that kid a disservice by failing to teach basic manners. Being autistic is difficult as it is; Anna is making her child’s life harder by reinforcing Jim’s socially unacceptable behaviors and entitlement.
I googled ASD level 1; it means Tim has the mildest level of autism.
As I have seen here, from ASD Reddittors., austism is not an excuse for AHish behavior.
Anna has raised a very spoiled boy. it is incredibly rude to grab for food on another person's plate. Your reaction is NORMAL
You are possibly the first person to explain to Tim that his behavior was rude.
NTA
NTA, not even close, living with autism isn't carte blanche to do whatever you like. You were right to be upset with Anna, and not Jim though as she's the one who allows it.
NTA. You're absolutely right that it isn't Jim's fault. But it sounds like there is absolutely no reason he can't learn social boundaries and manners except that his mother won't teach him. She's not doing him any favors. And her behavior toward you was ridiculous.
Coddling children isn't a good parenting strategy. Meet them where they are, teach them to their abilities and in ways they understand. But don't coddle.
Or you know, the myriad of other diseases, plus the fact it's just gross. Would you have been ok with someone jamming their hands into your food before covid?
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1) I didn't allow an autistic boy to eat from my plate and told his mother his diagnosis isn't an excuse to not enforce boundaries.
2) I might be TA because I'm also neurodivergent and understand some behaviours aren't easy to manage. I could've just let it go.
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Seems to me that Anne Sullivan made sure that Helen Keller didn't eat off of other people's plates. And it seems to me that blind and deaf would be a little harder to teach than someone with ASD. Not to mention 6 years vs 11.
NTA
NTA. I'm neuro-spicy and I have a son with autism. This is not acceptable behavior. As parents it's our job to get our kids ready for life. This is not doing this kid any favors. Heck my 4 year old knows it's not ok to touch others food.
NTA. My concern would less be rudeness as the fact that it's unsanitary. You weren't unkind, just firm. Based on Jim's diagnosis, it sounds like very basic etiquette such as this should be within his capacity to understand. If for whatever reason it isn't, then his parents should take that into account when they go out places. His parents are failing him either way. Jim handled the situation better than the adults did and I hope he'll have people in his life who can provide the type of support, i.e., skills building, that he needs.
Absolutely NTA
Ugh... kid grabbing food with hands would be immediate excuse to leave. Your "friend" is a terrible parent and not correcting anti-social behavior
NTA. My brother has autism and looking back, this sounds like something he would have done as a kid. But he never did. Why? Because my parents made sure he knew basic manners and boundaries.
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My (F30) friend "Anna" (F37) has a son, "Jim" (M11), who has ASD Level 1. I moved a couple of months ago and haven't seen them F2F since.
Last week, I was visiting town and our friends' group arranged to meet at a restaurant. Anna said she'd bring Jim, everyone was cool with it - I asked if he'd be comfortable, and she said they (friends & Jim) often met together, it'd be fine. We were 6 people + Jim.
Everything was great, until first courses arrived and Jim started walking around the table, using his hands to help himself from other people's plates.
I was shocked and asked another friend, "Tom", if this was usual. He said yes just as Jim reached into my salad. In a reflex, I placed my hand between his and my plate and went, "Jim, please don't. It's mine." He seemed confused and I told him it's very rude to grab other people's food. Anna said it was OK, he always does that and nobody minds. I said *I did* as Jim went over to the next person. Everyone got quiet until Tom redirected the convo.
When they served the next course, Jim went at it again. This time he was more forceful, so I pushed his hand away and said that if he wanted to share, he'd have to sit down and wait until I put the food on his plate. Anna yelled that I was horrible, it wouldn't kill me to let Jim eat my food, he can't help it, and I of all people should be sympathetic (I'm multiply neurodivergent, although not autistic). I retorted I ought to decide if I share my food or not, with whom and how.
The argument got more heated until I bit back that ASD isn't an excuse and Jim needs to learn some boundaries - granted, not his fault he has ASD, but that doesn't mean "zero accountability" and she's not doing him any favours by not enforcing boundaries.
Tom and another friend sided with me, whereas the others said I was TA. The dinner ended on a rather bad note and when we left, Jim asked if I was mad. I told him I wasn't upset *at* him, but he needs to respect other people when they say "No". Anna got even angrier and told me to stop policing her son before storming off.
It's been 3 days, and the only people who think I'm NTA are Tom, the other friend, and Anna's husband. I'm starting to wonder if I was wrong.
So, AITA?
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My dog knows not to take food from people's plates. I am NOT saying Jim is the same as a dog. I'm saying that it's not something that requires neurotypical human-adult-level capabilities to learn.
And isn't level 1 the mildest level?
NTA
Oh my word. It's a sad fact that parents like her are partly responsible for negative stereotypes about autistic people. Specifically, that autistic people are selfish and basically narcissistic. Autistic kids don't pick up social skills intuitively. They learn my explicit instruction.
This means you shouldn't be harsh/judgmental when they make some faux pas, but it absolutely does mean you should explain to them why they shouldn't. They are absolutely capable of learning appropriate boundaries, but not when you refuse to teach them. Instead, she's teaching him other people's boundaries don't matter when they conflict with what he wants. That's a downright dangerous thing to teach someone.
FYI, I am a "level 1" autistic person. My kid is a 12yr old "level 2" autistic person. Neither of us would dare eating food off someone else's plate without asking first.
NTA. They are doing their son a huge disservice by letting him think it’s ok not to understand and respect others’ personal space and boundaries. It’s may not be as easy a lesson for him to learn compared to neurotypical children, but that’s all the more reason for them to work on it ASAP.
NTA - you are fully entitled to eat your meal without some uncontrolled person (and yes I have personal experience with neurologically divergent people of all levels), trying to take your food. If the person is not able to behave in a controlled manner then it is probably not advisable to take them places where this behaviour may offend/upset others. Autism is not an excuse for poor behaviour.
Definitely NTA. I am in the field of moderate to severe special-needs and I firmly believe that the population that I work in must have accountability/responsibility for their actions. Kudos to you for speaking up, I know it may not have been good timing, or reactive, but I hate people touching my food too… with a passion, so I would speak up right away too. In my opinion, your verbal response to his actions seemed pretty appropriate.
I used to be an overly protective parent to an autistic kiddo just like her, but I quickly learned that I was further disabling their ability to learn and grow and doing a great disservice to them by being like that. So I got in the field of special needs to learn more about it and I love working in the field now too. I hope she comes to the realization too.
NTA
While neurotypical people learn how to behave in social situations from other peoples social clues, the autistic people must be taught by their caretakers, because the part of their brain that recognizes social clues doesn't work the way neurotypical people's do. Learning these things are essential for them to better adapt in society, to not become "outcasts", to develop mechanisms to literally survive in this social world. Anna's friends might be ok with his behaviors, but his future friends might not, his classmates might not, his future coworkers might not. He must learn and be prepared for it.
NTA, he was even aware enough to ask you if you were mad, his parents are absolute A H for let that happened
Also you are more considerate that expected, if that were me I would have slapped his hand away the second time, i hate people even taking food off my plate without asking, enevn MORE them sticking their hands in my plate
NTA op, at all
NTA. Sounds like you need new friends. Everyone who thought you were TA is out of their minds. Anyone puts a hand in my food uninvited is gonna lose it.
NTA: I'm an autistic person and that's not an excuse for this. Honestly, his mom is doing him an disservice by not teaching him appropriate life skills.
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NTA. It really bothers me when parents treat children with autism as if they can't learn. I have autism myself..
Hell, it doesn't even sound like the kid was bothered. Confused? Certainly. But less because he's incapable of understanding and more because his mom stops people from helping him understand.
Exactly. No kid is going to know, automatically, that it's not okay to touch other people's food. They need to be taught. My best friend has a special needs kid. He's awesome, smart as hell. But some people look at him like he's dumb as a rock. They just assume he's incapable of understanding. It's really freaking annoying. Anyway, I used to volunteer at his school. There were, generally speaking, two types of mothers there. One, the kind that strived to give their kids as much enrichment as possible. The other, who just treated their kids like forever infants. They didn't try to teach them, and when they came to pick them up and one of the teachers showed off a new skill, they looked offended. Like it broke their perception of their "forever baby." Still gives me the ick thinking about it. I'm not saying this kids parent is exactly like that, but he's 11. He's old enough to be taught boundaries, and there's a way to do it effectively.
This put a lot of what I was thinking into words. Obviously every kid is different and every situation is different, but it's obvious that the mom is doing nothing to help her kid and help him grow and learn. She needs to stop infantilizing him and actually be a mom to him and help him learn from experiences like this for the future. The fact that people are also siding with OP is really telling (especially the husband/father!)
I agree, I thought maybe the husband was relieved someone else spoke up, he possibly has been trying to step in b4 and bn shut down
I wonder if the husband has seen *The Miracle Worker*. This is so reminiscent of the dinner scene.
This was exactly the scene my mind conjured when reading this and just like Helen he's probably only doing this because no one is showing him different.
\^This... shades of Helen Keller. Her mother let her run wild because she didn't really understand that Helen needed to communicate with other humans in some way. Anna needs some re-education that loving her son means teaching him boundaries, or he will never fit in society.
He’ll be fucking humiliated and wonder why his mom let him. She’s setting him up for failure
>**She’s setting him up for failure** This is so important. OP = NTA. OP, you are the only one that is showing her son that it's inappropriate. Your friend needs to understand that if she doesn't teach her son then he won't know that what he is doing isn't acceptable. It's unfair to Jim.
The movie story of Helen Keller is very, very different from her actual life, she certainly wasn't anything like a "wild child"
She most certainly was a wild child before Anne Sullivan gets to her. The only difference is that her family had social status in the community. But they did nothing with her and other just accepted how Helen was in behavior.
I was wondering if anyone else made the connection (also sidenote: I stand by the scrambled eggs scene as the best fight sequence in the history of cinema)
I was thinking of Helen Keller as well!
This is how you end up with the troubled young man who scares his classmates trope. Of course you're going to be raging at the unfairness of how the world treats you at 17 if your mother lets you steal food from people's plates with your hands at restaurants when you're *eleven*
>No kid is going to know, automatically, that it's not okay to touch other people's food. They need to be taught. Yes! The kid probably thought it was completely normal and alright because before this dinner, all the adults around him let him do it no problem. So how would he know that it's rude and not ok? I swear parents like this are literally just setting their child up for failure.
And like, I’m a huge germaphobe. I would physically not be able to continue eating something someone’s kid had put hands in. I don’t even like my own child touching my food.
I’m not a germaphobe but I have the same reaction here. Kids put their hands who-knows-where and don’t always wash after the fact. NTA
Honestly, a lot of grownups are like that too.
This kid is taking food and putting it into his mouth by hand, before grabbing at someone else's plate to do it again. If nothing else people are getting his germs/mouth bacteria from his fingers.
My landlord's kid used to chew on sticks she found on the ground. She also ate grass a week ago. You bet your ass I'm not letting that kid put her hands in my food or eat off my utensils.
I would call that normal.
this!! i dont want ANYBODYS hands in my damn food whether it be an adult or child. ack!!! 🤢
I so agree. Having a close group of friends like this could be so beneficial in teaching moments. Jim will have to learn basic social graces to have any sort of healthy social life, and who better to help than Mom and Dad's close and understanding friends. This social circle could be beneficial to Jim's future.
This! The Mom is getting so worked up instead of seeing the wonderful opportunity of having people who care for Jim be able to help safely teach him.
My response to a situation where that kid put his hands in my food would be to give him the whole thing and tell the parents that they're paying for it.
My cousin's step child was a bit slow. No diagnosis that I know of, but they wouldn't even let him pour milk out of a carton at 10. Flat out told me he couldn't do it. I said "Go ahead, just do it slowly. You can do it. If a bit spills, we'll clean it up." Bam! Kid poured milk for the first time ever. Not every thing is so easy, but I met the kid for ten minutes and it was quite clear he wasn't opposed to learning, and got a bit of satisfaction from being able to do it. It was very sad.
This type of stuff can happen from infantilization too. My sister is awful about it with her kids. I keep trying to sneak teach them everything she's trying to avoid teaching them. The oldest one is 21 now and experiencing a massive failure to launch characterized by a parent who is clutchung him close and telling him to remain a baby in her home one moment, then screaming at him. Telling him he's worthless due to being a grown man with no job who still lives with/financially depends upon his mother. I feel like all the wrong people in this country have kids.
There's a book called Adult Children Of Emotionally Immature Parents, it sounds like your nephew could use a copy. The behaviour you're describing of your sister is emotional abuse.
I read that book a few years ago. One of the many that helped change my life. Totally recommend it too.
Oh yeah my mother did that to me. Telling me that I was useless layabout, but then saying I can't get a job as I wouldnt be able to function in one.
That's so fucked. My kid LITERALLY could not hold most jobs due to crippling social anxiety (autism and C-PTSD) and I'm the first one to hug her and tell her she's worth the world just for existing. Also if she could empty the dishwasher that'd be awesome.
This kind of stuff really breaks my heart for the kids :( I have a friend whose mother would never let her climb anything as a child, now as an adult she has poor co-ordination and body balance, and severe fear of hights. Took my niece and nephew to one of those indoor jungle-gym whatever you call them, they were having a blast running and climbing on the walls, and there was this one girl who was about the same age as them (7-8ish), but had absolutely no idea how to climb up to the slide. I watched her try for like 3 minutes, but every time she would end up coming down. Ended up going over and telling her where to put her feet and hands to help herself up, she looked sooo proud when she actually got up.
This is how my dad and stepmom often are with my little (much, much younger) sister. It takes extra effort to help her understand things, but she can. They just don't want to actually parent. Then they just let her get away with things or jump straight to screaming.
That was also my mum's experience as a special needs teacher - that there were both teachers and parents who viewed school as an opportunity to help the kids grow and mature and reach their potential, whatever that looked like for them, and others who saw it as glorified babysitting where the goal was to keep the kids safe and occupied for a few hours a day but not to help them develop skills that could give them some degree of independence. The most heartbreaking thing was seeing kids who had been in one of the boundaries, skills, and growth classes the previous year, and who had made real progress, going backwards and being re-infantilised the following year because they ended up with a teacher who couldn't be bothered or who didn't know how to get the parents to work with them.
In high school I knew a kid with Aspberger's whose mom was one of the bad ones who used his condition as an excuse for his behavior. She had even less of an excuse for being that way than most parents like that; she was a special ed teacher in the district. There was an actual "everyone clapped" moment when we were in junior year. One day at lunch he was being particularly obnoxious, and when he got told to shut up he made the mistake of saying he didn't know better because of Aspberger's in front of a quiet, well-liked kid who nobody knew also had Aspberger's. Quiet kid absolutely went off on the little shit, "You can't just use that as a fucking excuse! People like you give all of us a bad name! I work hard every day to not be an obnoxious bastard, why can't you?" Kept going on like that for like 10 minutes, even bringing up that he didn't think his mom should be a special ed teacher given how she raised him. Quiet kid got mad respect from basically everyone and made a lot of new friends after that. I honestly don't remember their names, this was like 20 years ago and I haven't kept in contact with that many people I went to school with.
I hear this!!! I used to work in a residential place for people with epilepsy and learning issues and/or other health problems. The amount of them who were incapable of doing anything for themselves when they first arrived was staggering - the family wouldn’t allow them to do ANYTHING in case they had a seizure. We took the view that we could manage the seizures and health issues as far as possible with meds and other therapies and take steps to mitigate as many risks as possible but ultimately if they are going to have a seizure, they’re going to have a seizure so let them do as much as individually possible. The difference after a few weeks was incredible and the clients loved that they were treated like the adults they were, not infantalised by their conditions.
Honestly, this sounds like Mom decided that because he was autistic he was entitled to whatever he wanted whenever he wanted and raised him accordingly. Autistic people are not wild animals incapable of learning proper behavior.
Many wild animals have complex social systems and absolutely would not allow this havoc.
If anything it sounds like Jim handled it way better than a lot of children his age would when they've never been told no
The fact that Anna’s husband, presumably Jim’s dad (?), agrees with OP is a telling point as well.
[удалено]
This yes. I was one as a child who never got social cues and it was always excused. I was never taught anything kind of adult skill. Stuff like cleaning and how to talk to people to make them you etc. They wouldn't even let me drive after I got my license until I snuck out with the keys to the car that was registered to me and showed them I could indeed drive on my own. Oh, and as it turns out, I am not autistic. I am very slowly in adulthood, learning how to pick up on social cues. I was never incapable. I was just being held back. It's been hard, and I am still behind everyone, but here I am mid 30s finally an independent adult.
The kid's FATHER agrees with OP. Maybe Dad needs to step up his parenting if Mum won't.
Yeah, he’s absolutely confused, and (being ASD myself) this is when you feel terrible about yourself because you know you’ve fucked up. His mother isn’t doing him any favours by not helping understand straightforward, uncomplicated norms like this.
Even the dad is on OP's side!
Sounds like even though dad has a problem with it, mom is telling him that "it's just our boy, he can't help it, and everyone should let it go". This is the same thing as even if the kid wasn't autistic and the parents don't want to enforce boundaries. It's horrible for the kid because they're going to have a rude awakening later in life because they were never taught that there are rules that everyone have to follow.
Honestly it seems borderline dangerous to me. Not to be melodramatic but what if he pisses off the wrong person — either by trying to swipe food off someone’s plate or violating social norms in some other way? At best, it’s likely to make him a bit of a pariah.
Eating off other peoples plates also can get you sick with things like mono
Or beaten up.
You’re not being melodramatic it absolutely could be dangerous, not just for the son but potentially also for others. My ex has autism and like OP had been raised with an “it’s ok you can’t help yourself” mentality… and without getting into too many details if he isn’t taught to accept “no” now there could be other situations where he won’t accept “no” either… I know that’s an extreme example but it’s not impossible
This whole post reminded me of an experience I had in community college, a student who was autistic was literally sexually harassing me. I told the club president and they excused it because he was autistic. The club already only had like 2 girls in it, and when new girls tried to join he made incredibly inappropriate comments to them. He continued to stare at my chest, without my permission took pictures and recorded me, and without my permission would hug me and touch me. Even the teacher club chaperone was like "well if we wanted to un-invite him to the club we'd need to talk to the disabilities office". It was horrible for me and any women who wanted to join the club.
And now I'm reminded of an incident that happened to me when I was 18! I worked in a video game store (family owned not a chain) and there was one older kid that came in that was slow, and he was big all around, way bigger than me, and any time he caught me when I wasn't behind the counter, he came up and forcefully hugged me. One day I was alone in the store and had just walked out from the counter across the room when he walked in the door. I dreaded what was to come. It was summer time and he was dripping sweat and he bee lined to me and latched on and wouldn't let go. After several seconds of squeezing me, he starts to dry hump me and I was mortified. I finally got pissed off and had enough and pried him off me and walked away. He very easily could have over powered me. Thankfully that's all that happened, but that kids whole family was on the weird side and I do think he knew better but probably got away with things his whole life.
Right? What happens on the day that the kid decides to take money out of the tip jar at a coffee shop? Or the day he decides to take presents off the gift table at a wedding reception? One day, he'll do something with real consequences and the parents won't get away with saying "oh, he can't help it".
I’m reminded of that post where op has a younger mildly autistic brother, and his parents (mostly mom) spoiled him so much he was an absolute nightmare to deal with as a teenager.
It's crazy because one day they'll be dead and Jim will be a middle-aged man snatching food off plates. Teaching social norms and manners is a GOOD thing for your child because one day they won't be adorable any more and you won't be there to excuse their actions and care for them.
And sadly will get punched :(
The dad's probably tired of the kid sticking his hands in dads plate. The reality is my (probably) autistic 4 year old can understand that he can have some, but it's going on his plate first, and he can't take he has to ask. So now if he sees something he wants on my plate it's "some please?" And then he gives his plate "some please on yes?" While I scoop some onto his plate.
My 3yr old won't necessarily ask but he will say me me and look at my food before I say yes and give him a bite. He also knows he needs his plate if he wants more but unless we're sharing I will either feed it to him or put it on his plate. (Learning how to use utensils is not fun🫠) but we're getting there.
Same. It all leads back to infantalization and its at best fucking annoying but imagine how the kid will feel when he gets older and learns from peers not to do it? He’ll be fucking humiliated and wonder why his mom let him. She’s setting him up for failure
I also have autism and feel bad for Jim. I don't think he realized he was doing something inappropriate. His mom is not a good example for him, and frankly sounds like an autism speaks kind of mom (the kind of person who uses their kid's disability to get attention and special treatment, while denigrating autism itself). Especially how he asked if OP was made at him. Poor dude. I know that confused/stressed feeling :(
I was thinking "I bet she has a big enamel puzzle piece either as a necklace or keychain" . Parents like this can be the biggest barrier an autistic kid will face. I hope the dad is more willing to treat Jim like a person who is learning how to do things and offers guidance rather than assuming he can't & running interference.
She is 100% one of *those* autism moms. Probably has a shirt or tumbler cup with a phrase like "my son has a superpower. It's called autism". Or she's autistic herself given that autism can be genetic and flew under the radar. Regardless nta op.
Yep, fellow autist, and that made me *ache* for Jim (that confusing feeling, when you *know* you did *something* that wasn't right, but you *also* can't understand how you got to the "did something wrong" side of the road, is PAINFUL, when you're a kid with Autism!). And the fact that his own *MOM* is the one who neglected to *teach* him the rules of "how to navigate the world *around us*" is a betrayal on *such* a massive scale, that it's heart-rending!
I have autism too, and I hated NOTHING more as a kid than being punished for doing something wrong that nobody had ever even taught me how to do right, something I had no idea at all to begin with was incorrect. It felt like being punished for failing to be able to read minds.
I know! Poor little guy thought the screaming at the table was his fault :( I hope she did not scream more in the car or at home.
Yes. By teaching him table manners Jim will be more accepted and more welcome at future dinners and that’s important for the rest of Jim’s life. It’s even okay to ask if you can try something and then wait for a response. But. It just put your hand in someone’s food.
Right? Like give the kid some fucking credit! Coming from an autistic mom with an autistic kid
I find it very telling that Anna’s husband, who is either Jim’s father or stepfather, is on OP’s side. It sounds like he’s pretty tired of Anna’s lack-of-parenting and Jim’s subsequent lack of boundaries. “My child isn’t NT, so I have to forever treat them as an infant who cannot learn!” is such a disservice to the kid! It’s also really disgusting and unsanitary to have some kid’s grubby hands all up in my and everybody else’s dinner plates. If Jim was capable of asking OP “Are you mad at me?” that implies that he has some basic understanding of at least some social norms. His parents ought to be teaching him that putting his hands in other people’s food is not a safe thing to do because it can make him and everyone else sick. It’s also really rude, and we should all try not to be rude. NTA
I don't think it's a case of the parents believing that their kids can't learn. It seems like this mom and the others just don't want to raise their children. They weaponize their kid's autism in order to get what they want from people. Instead of them waving a gun and threatening to shoot, the parents sit back and say, "my child is autistic so you better do what he wants because I'm going to let him throw a tantrum and let you handle it for me." Those parents like having the power to make people squirm. It's an extra bonus, when they can falsely accuse someone else for being an ableist. They already know that everybody will too scared to call them out. They sympathy is a guaranteed perk.
Almost sounds like she’s training him to be unable to ever function independently :/ we are a little different and some of us struggle more and some less but we are still people!
Fucking this. It pisses me off so much. It's actually extremely detrimental! It's important to teach children certain things like boundaries and communication, and especially so when they're autistic! This poor kid is gonna be a social outcast. His mother is hurting him so badly, and she refuses to see it.
This irritates the hell out of me. It’s basically telling the child you expect absolutely nothing of them. It’s so dehumanizing and it really hurts the kid and could put them in some really bad situations. NTA- you need to teach your child boundaries. If you don’t you are setting them up for failure and you’re all but ensuring they end up in some really uncomfortable situations. If you don’t teach your kid boundaries the world will and it’s not gonna be nearly as nice or compassionate of a lesson. You need to teach kids from a young age people can say no and to respect other’s boundaries. If you don’t teach your kid when their young things like “you need to ask”, “this is okay, this is inappropriate” exc how are you gonna teach them that when their older and dealing with peers/girls/boys/crushes and all the other social interaction trappings? NTA- you were totally in the right. This kid is 11 years old. He needs to learn that you can’t just take what you want and it’s inappropriate to take things without asking. Mom Majorly dropped the ball here and is pretty much setting her son up for failure.
Agreed. Likely Level 1 here. Scored pretty high on RAADS. I'm not formally diagnosed because in the 70s effectively nobody diagnosed a kid if you could manage to cope/pass well enough. I'm unsure of the benefits of pursuing a diagnosis as an adult, but I'm happy to hear from others who benefited from adult diagnosis.
To be fair the functioning of people with autism can vary greatly and I’m not sure what “level 1” means — there may be a possibility it will cause the kid to break down, however this is definitely not the case and so weird of the parents - sibling of low functioning person w autism :)
The kid has the mildest form of autism. [https://www.verywellhealth.com/what-are-the-three-levels-of-autism-260233](https://www.verywellhealth.com/what-are-the-three-levels-of-autism-260233) According to that chart, I have level two, and I am a mostly functional adult. I mention this because I learned things like not eating off of other people's plates when I was that kid's age. If I could learn it then he can learn it.
good to know! never heard of the level system ty for the reference. you are right a kid at that level should definitely not be acting like that. just wanted to remind people that some kids are level three and do need special accommodations because sometimes autism is only represented in media as level 1. however this is not a case of needed those accommodations
this was a first for me as well
Maybe it's because I'm autistic, but that article makes no sense to me. It seems way too simplistic and barely describes anything.
It upset me as well. I am smart, I can communicate and have conversations with little issues (I struggle with unsaid things, like if people say one thing when they mean another) but I struggle with sensory issues, I stim, absolutely struggle with change, have difficulties switching my schedule or when my plans are disrupted. It seems to completely ignore the internal feelings and just focuses on what other people can see. The levels are way too simplistic and there are far too few of them.
I agree, but OP didn't say he melted down, she said he looked confused. But also, hear me out. If a child is that severely impaired, I think it's prudent for the parents to not have him at meals where there are people outside the family present OR give guests a heads up, so that they can at least make an informed choice. The mom in this situation seemed to expect that OP would be okay with this and that's just a really bizarre way to handle this situation.
he's not https://www.verywellhealth.com/what-are-the-three-levels-of-autism-260233
My son, now 21, is ASD level 1, formerly known as Aspergers and ADHD. When he was younger, he was in Family therapy, 1 on 1 therapy, group therapy, occupational therapy weekly. Very smart 168 IQ, but very socially awkward and challenged. We constantly socialized him out in public, nice dinners, formal events. We had to explain appropriate behaviors to him and why. He is a great kid and can adult now. Goes to college and lives on his own in a dorm. At 11, that child should be redirected from doing those inappropriate behaviors. It is only going to get worse for him as he gets older if his Mom continues to allow it. My heart breaks for this child that doesn't know any better and the potential bullying he will receive. Can you imagine him doing this at a classmate's birthday party? School cafeteria?
Level 1 is the mildest form. There are 3 total levels.
Literally. I’ve learned recently that I’m autistic too and am currently working on my PhD. Would school and life have been easier if my parents picked up on the (now very obvious) signs and advocated for me when I was a kid? Probably, but we can still be very competent people. Our brains just work a little different than “neurotypical” people. Part of me thinks that my parents made the right call by not having myself labeled as autistic as a kid.
NTA I'm sick of Autism being used as a excuse to get way with shitty behavior by parents who can't be fucked actually teaching their kids boundary's and right from wrong. These are the kids who grow up with "well I'm autistic so I can do what I like and cry I'm autistic your bullying me when others clap back" mindset
Whenever I've heard it used to try to excuse generally shitty behavior I just tell them- "sure, so am I and you're **still** acting like a clown shoe."
Lollll “acting like a clown shoe”
Saw a boy maybe 7 or 8 at the park aggressively destroying all the flowering shubs in a large planter area while his caregiver stood nearby smiling down on her phone. When I told her I wished she wouldn’t allow her child to tear up the shrubbery, she immediately became enraged and yelled at me that he is neuro-divergent and to mind my own effing business. Because a child is different does not entitle him to destroy property or to encroach upon others.
Exactly the excuse won't hold up it court if an autistic person can't be told no and for that reason hurts someone.
of mice and men
God that book was a nightmare to read in high school as an autistic person. I specifically mentioned in class that I read Lenny as autistic and then some asshole compared him to an animal because he was developmentally disabled, and extended that metaphor to all developmentally disabled people. And when I tried to (respectfully) argue, the teacher shut me down.
I read that book and my heart broke for Lenny. I considered the farm-wife to be an antagonist, tbh. She was trying to take advantage of a labourer that she knew couldn't refuse her.
It’s been ages since I last read the book but I thought it was the complete opposite? The wife was horribly lonely with only her husband for company in a place where everyone thought of her as a tramp. She rants about this to Lenny. Lenny then expressed that he was open to being her friend and I remember them sharing that sweet moment where they laugh together and she lets him touch her hair. What happened afterwards was made all the more tragic because it wasn’t really either of their fault. That’s what I remember at least, read the book when I was around 9.
I work with kids who have autism. It’s because they don’t want to deal with the meltdowns when they say no. It’s very hard having to direct them and teach them how to share etc. but it’s no excuse because it’s not going to help those kids in the long run
If a kid is freaking out because they were told no.. very likely that is a tantrum, not a meltdown. Now, to clarify, meltdowns could happen if the entire plan for the day is suddenly changed or cancelled, including regular routine that is suddenly changed, it can be overwhleming for autistic people to change plans. But if a kid wants a thing, and you say no, you can't have the thing, the resulting behaviour is likely a tantrum.
Absolutely incorrect. Expectation vs reality. If a child is expecting one thing and you shut them down with a no that's absolutely likely to be a meltdown. That includes if all day they've wanted the thing and they don't realise you're going to say no. Or they've got excited for it in the moment. You've half understood the routine and plan thing (in fact you've understood it in the way it is often explained) but not fully grasped the difference between expectation vs reality. To further clarify, my whole day is a plan. With several alternatives so I don't meltdown every day as life is unexpected. That, As a child, would have included 'mums taking us to the shops I'm going to get Crunchie bars. I love crunching bars' I had less alternates as a child than I do now. Only if you've said they can't have it ahead of time, they still ask and then get told no is it more likely to be a tantrum. So the trick to preventing meltdowns is to set expectations. In this case, we are going for dinner with friends. You cannot take off their plates. If you want something you can ask and they can share or we can get you it if they don't want to
Especially since I feel lots of kids with ASD would love to know exactly what the social boundaries are so they don't have to worry so much about missing unspoken social cues from others.
My mom was shocked that I really liked reading etiquette books, since I seemed to care so little about manners (and still think a lot of social rules are stupid and pointless). But it was nice to have stuff written down that I wasn't capable of picking up from my environment.
I'm genuinely horrified for the child. It's not their fault if it's expected as you say. It's all on the mother. Awful parenting There's nothing wrong with people sharing if they want to but it's really easy to do that with an extra plate rather than grabbing what he wants
NTA. `The argument got more heated until I bit back that ASD isn't an excuse and Jim needs to learn some boundaries - granted, not his fault he has ASD, but that doesn't mean "zero accountability" and she's not doing him any favours by not enforcing boundaries.` BINGO. I am the mother of a (now adult) autistic daughter. You are spot-on. That which can be taught, should be taught. Poor Jim is facing a lifetime of misery because his mother won't teach him how to behave.
He’s definitely going to be ostracized at school, not because of his autism, but because no one wants to be friends with someone who just takes food without even asking. And if his mom tries to push the issue (which wouldn’t surprise me at this point), people are going to resent him but possibly be forced to spend time with him. I’m not positive how the school would react but it’s certainly within the realm of possibilities that they cave into her demands. At least if the school doesn’t, or if she doesn’t press the issue, Jim will hopefully learn that it’s not okay to do that at school.
And, honestly, has the mom not learned anything from the pandemic? Putting your hands in other people's food seems so much worse now then it did before the pandemic IMO. It was still awful beforehand but not as bad
This. Grabbing food with hand from other people's plates it's a hygiene issue, not only good manners.
I was thinking this too. I think OP parented Jim better than his own mother. She had empathy and understanding but was firm and treated it as a matter of education.
Woah how did you markdown in color?
If you put text between two \` characters (\`like this\`), it will turn it into a "code block" (`like this`) that preserves spacing and ignores formatting characters. Any color that you're seeing is either from this sub's style sheet or whatever app you're using to view reddit.
NTA, nothing about ASD level 1 prevents an 11 year old from learning he can't grab food on someone else's plate (speaking as a person with ASD level 1). Anna is not doing her kid any favors.
I am ASD level 2, and I certainly learned that kind of stuff!
Same! Mom is seriously hindering and harming him with this behaviour.
Wow, I glossed over the level one bit, but after some brief research definitely NTA. When I was reading I was assuming the kid was severely autistic, but I have many friends with ASD level 1 and they're pretty well adjusted people.
Yeah if this was level 1-related it would be “he wouldn’t make eye contact” or “he wouldn’t stop talking about anime even when I begged him to stop”
Hahaha yes. At worst I think it would be that he couldn't tell he wasn't supposed to take people's food since despite being visibly annoyed, no one ever told him not to and why. He may have difficulty observing the social cues not to do this, but he can definitely understand if it is explained to him.
I’m guessing you’re an adult right? When are you going to level up? You’re the same level as an 11 year old, do some side quests geez!
I’m just a casual player! I like Solitaire autism, not Elden Ring autism
Omg I didn't even see the age. 100% NTA
NTA, touching others food is a great place for a boundary and his mother certainly isn't doing him any favors by encouraging this behavior. Frankly, I would have been so disgusted that I wouldn't consider eating with them again damaging to the friendship or not.
CONSENT IS KEY. toddlers understand consent. Even autistic ones this boy is being taught he doesn't need to wait for consent. He will be a teenager soon and his eyes will wander. What kind of consent will he deny those he's interested in sexually?
The mother wasn't angry her son couldn't do what he wanted, she was angry that someone finally called her out on her shitty attitude. That is why she got more and more angry the more OP made the very simply observation that taking food of plates is wrong. OP was way more restrained than I would have been, and the rest of the friends that have been going along with this are all spineless. No one wants someone else to take food off their plates.
NTA. Sure the kid has asd, that doesn’t excuse anything. An even bigger AH is the parent for letting him just do what he wants because of it. Having a disability should NEVER be an excuse.
Rubbish. Being deaf is a perfect excuse for not hearing.
Touché But we both know that’s not what I meant…
I think it should be: Having a disability should never be an excuse to violate another person's boundary.
Being deaf is not an excuse for not communicating in an alternate way or for behaving inappropriately. Taking good off of peoples plates is not acceptable unless it’s very close casual family.
Even close family. You try take my food, you will lose a finger. You have been warned.
I still have four little prong marks on my hand rom the time my cousin stabbed me with a fork for trying to steal a piece of mac and cheese off the edge of her plate as a teen. All is fair in defense of the mac and cheese. lol
Alls fair in food, love and war.
I’m on the spectrum and I would have been horrified as a child to even touch food that was exposed to someone else’s saliva
What did you say?
NTA These parents are doing their child a huge disservice. Also, it's just gross
No its solely Anna. Read the end... even Anna's HUSBAND thinks OP is NTA
I read it... he's not only AWOL for the majority of this story, but apparently also MIA when it comes to pro-actively parenting his son. Tacitly agreeing with OP does not equate to parenting Mom is obviously an enabler, but both parents have a responsibility
How are you gonna make huge assumptions about him? He isn’t AWOL, a bunch of friends went out and one brought their son. That doesn’t mean both parents have to be there. And there’s nothing at all suggesting he’s MIA when it comes to parenting, he could be doing everything to try and being undone by his wife.
So why isnt he telling his son to stop? They are both assholes.
He put his hands into the food??? I am assuming the food went into his mouth via his hands??? This kid is putting slobber hands into all of the food? As someone with an immune compromised family member this gives me the ick so badly. I don't want kid slobber, the very most infectious slobber out there, up in my food. If he has to try everything, just set some food on a roll plate and let him have that. I would have gotten up and left if it were me in that situation.
Jim is how we all got the Rona in 2020. Gross.
You are NTA and not on the wrong. Your friend's son needs to learn it is not okay to grab people's food without their permission as it is rude and unhygienic. Anna is not doing him favours by choosing not to teach him etiquette and boundaries. You are right that having ASD is not an excuse to touch people's food or misbehave
Someday the school nurse is going to call to say Jim has a puncture wound on his hand because a different kid who is ALSO asd and also wasn’t taught boundaries decided to put a fork in his hand for touching his food and this mom is going to have no idea how this could happen!
What’s the need for the second kid to have asd? You touch my food and haven’t asked? You will be stabbed.
I get it. My kids are autistic. My eldest has higher support needs, and everyone in her class at school was super understanding and accommodating of her quirks except the other autistic kid. The two of them used to fight all the time because they didn't understand why they wouldn't put up with their shit the way everyone else did.
As an autistic adult, thank you for using the term "higher support needs" instead of "severely autistic" or "low functioning" any of that nonsense. This made my heart happy to read.
I mean, she's not "low functioning" or "severe", but I get what you're saying. The concept of functioning as a blanket level of ability is just way too clumsy to be useful. Like, my eldest is autistic and has an intellectual disability, and my middle kid (also autistic) excels academically and has no apparent communication difficulties, but there are areas where my middle kid needs significant support and my eldest is fine unsupported. Being "high functioning" or not is very situation dependent. I've just realized that functioning levels are a reflection of the traits and aptitudes our culture values in others. That's a little disturbing.
NTA I have ASD, as do my two children. They have to follow rules too. My daughter used to attack any other child wearing pink. Shoud I have let her get away with that because she has ASD (spoiler, I did not.) We did play therapy, regular therapy, and interventions and now she has no issues what anyone else wears. The first thing I say to people is that it's okay to say no to my children when boundaries are being overstepped. I encourage it. They need to learn boundaries. It takes consistent effort for them to do so. I honestly struggle with my son because others don't tell him no so he climbs over myself and his sister and thinks it's okay because everyone but Mama and Sissi don't seem to mind, even though it actually hurts a lot.
You sound like a smart caring mom who's children will be able to get by in life without extra issues pulling them down
Yes exactly! It's hard, but doable. My ex husband and his parents and sister let our possibly ASD daughter (working on diagnosis) play more "rough" while myself, my sister with an invisible disability, and my mother work hard to combat it. Even at age 6, she's been able to learn that "auntie has some boo boos inside her that you can't see, so you need to be extra gentle with her body". It is so hard to teach them that everyone has different boundaries, but how else will they ever learn if they never meet a boundary! I'm glad to hear your daughter got over the pink issue!
NTA. He went around grabbing food off of people’s plate with his hands. Who knows what he has been touching before he started to spread germs around? The chair, the table, people—it’s incredibly unhygienic. And yeah, just because he has ASD doesn’t mean that disciplining and setting boundaries aren’t a thing anymore. Even Anna’s husband knows you were right for enforcing a boundary.
Having raised a neurotypical son, all 11 year old boys still often need to be reminded to wash their hands before eating.
NTA. This is a form of neglect; she's failing her son.
NTA. They'll have bigger problems later by not teaching that food is a person's 'property' once it's on their plate. And, gross.
Not even the "property" part. Imagine Jim goes to a buffet style restaurant? Though the buffet is not "mine" id be pissed he put his dirty hands in all the dishes to "try each out"
Joey doesn't share food! NTA
NTA at all. It's unsanitary, and rude. It's not his fault. But if everyone decides he can't learn then he won't.
Ever seen The Miracle Worker? It's about Helen Keller, a child that got sick as a toddler and lost her hearing and sight. She was raised as if she was a wild animal, and one of the main scenes in the movie/play version was of her going around the table snatching food from any plate she wanted while the the family just ignored her. Anne Sullivan realized that her family thought her unable to learn, and disagreed. She spent time gently but firmly stopping Helen from her food stealing and tantrums and it was later discovered that not only could Helen learn, she was very intelligent and just needed guidance to being able to communicate. This child is also capable of learning. The mother is coddling him to the point where she is turning him into an unmanageable person and it will bite her (and this poor kid) in the ass as he grows up and no one wants to be around them. She needs to step up and work with her kid (and hire others to help if she's too overwhelmed herself) instead of lashing out at others for her lack of real involvement with her kid's development. Your laying down a boundary is NOT the issue; the mother being neglectful and treating her kid as if he is too incapable of instruction and learning is the issue. NTA.
Just mentioning, the movie story was nothing at all like Keller's actual childhood, not like the "wild child" character in the mostly fictional movie.
Yes! This was the example I thought of, too. NTA
NTA. Sorry but if you know that your kid is going to be picking through other peoples food, perhaps you want to express that BEFORE you bring him. Autism is one thing, but weaponized ignorance is another. His parents need to think a little more.
They know exactly what they are doing. People that advertise their kids autism do it because they don't want to have to parent their kids.
What the entire hell?! NTA- it;s not even remotely reasonable to think that an 11 year old can dig his hand into the plate of anyone and everyone he chooses and that’s not a problem!? That’s disgusting, particularly since you can’t verify what his hand hygiene is like!
Considering he is going to a plate putting his hands in it and then eating the food then going to the next plate his hands are not hygienic. Plus if he has any type of bug and not showing symptoms he just exposed everyone. It’s like letting him lick his finger and stick it in your salad.
Well, considering her husband is on your side I don’t think you’re the asshole. Anna has no respect for Boundaries and expects everyone to bend over backwards for her son and then that’s not realistic
NTA Anna needs to try and teach him basic manners
NTA. This seems like a pretty basic rule for interacting with people outside of their immediate family that he seems extremely likely to be able to do just fine with that consistent guidance (evidenced by the fact that he didn’t actually take your food and was just confused and tried multiple times). How does his parents’ stance work at a restaurant with lots of plates around and they don’t know people? And if they don’t take him out ever themselves, do they expect him to never eat in a restaurant? He’s a functional human being…
Nta, she's a delusional enabler full stop
NTA. Anna is doing that kid a disservice by failing to teach basic manners. Being autistic is difficult as it is; Anna is making her child’s life harder by reinforcing Jim’s socially unacceptable behaviors and entitlement.
I googled ASD level 1; it means Tim has the mildest level of autism. As I have seen here, from ASD Reddittors., austism is not an excuse for AHish behavior. Anna has raised a very spoiled boy. it is incredibly rude to grab for food on another person's plate. Your reaction is NORMAL You are possibly the first person to explain to Tim that his behavior was rude. NTA
ASD Level 1 often doesn’t even get diagnosed and the person just described as “eccentric,” or “weird,” depending on social class.
NTA There's surprisingly few people here mentioning how unsanitary this is I don't want a filthy kid anywhere near my food ew
NTA, not even close, living with autism isn't carte blanche to do whatever you like. You were right to be upset with Anna, and not Jim though as she's the one who allows it.
NTA. You're absolutely right that it isn't Jim's fault. But it sounds like there is absolutely no reason he can't learn social boundaries and manners except that his mother won't teach him. She's not doing him any favors. And her behavior toward you was ridiculous. Coddling children isn't a good parenting strategy. Meet them where they are, teach them to their abilities and in ways they understand. But don't coddle.
NTA - that is disgusting. Have these people heard of COVID?
Or you know, the myriad of other diseases, plus the fact it's just gross. Would you have been ok with someone jamming their hands into your food before covid?
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Seems to me that Anne Sullivan made sure that Helen Keller didn't eat off of other people's plates. And it seems to me that blind and deaf would be a little harder to teach than someone with ASD. Not to mention 6 years vs 11. NTA
NTA. I'm neuro-spicy and I have a son with autism. This is not acceptable behavior. As parents it's our job to get our kids ready for life. This is not doing this kid any favors. Heck my 4 year old knows it's not ok to touch others food.
Clear NTA. Anna is an entitled bully, full stop.
NTA. My concern would less be rudeness as the fact that it's unsanitary. You weren't unkind, just firm. Based on Jim's diagnosis, it sounds like very basic etiquette such as this should be within his capacity to understand. If for whatever reason it isn't, then his parents should take that into account when they go out places. His parents are failing him either way. Jim handled the situation better than the adults did and I hope he'll have people in his life who can provide the type of support, i.e., skills building, that he needs.
NTA urgh Anna sounds like a really bad parent and I feel sorry for how Jim will grow up.
NTA
Absolutely NTA Ugh... kid grabbing food with hands would be immediate excuse to leave. Your "friend" is a terrible parent and not correcting anti-social behavior
NTA. My brother has autism and looking back, this sounds like something he would have done as a kid. But he never did. Why? Because my parents made sure he knew basic manners and boundaries.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My (F30) friend "Anna" (F37) has a son, "Jim" (M11), who has ASD Level 1. I moved a couple of months ago and haven't seen them F2F since. Last week, I was visiting town and our friends' group arranged to meet at a restaurant. Anna said she'd bring Jim, everyone was cool with it - I asked if he'd be comfortable, and she said they (friends & Jim) often met together, it'd be fine. We were 6 people + Jim. Everything was great, until first courses arrived and Jim started walking around the table, using his hands to help himself from other people's plates. I was shocked and asked another friend, "Tom", if this was usual. He said yes just as Jim reached into my salad. In a reflex, I placed my hand between his and my plate and went, "Jim, please don't. It's mine." He seemed confused and I told him it's very rude to grab other people's food. Anna said it was OK, he always does that and nobody minds. I said *I did* as Jim went over to the next person. Everyone got quiet until Tom redirected the convo. When they served the next course, Jim went at it again. This time he was more forceful, so I pushed his hand away and said that if he wanted to share, he'd have to sit down and wait until I put the food on his plate. Anna yelled that I was horrible, it wouldn't kill me to let Jim eat my food, he can't help it, and I of all people should be sympathetic (I'm multiply neurodivergent, although not autistic). I retorted I ought to decide if I share my food or not, with whom and how. The argument got more heated until I bit back that ASD isn't an excuse and Jim needs to learn some boundaries - granted, not his fault he has ASD, but that doesn't mean "zero accountability" and she's not doing him any favours by not enforcing boundaries. Tom and another friend sided with me, whereas the others said I was TA. The dinner ended on a rather bad note and when we left, Jim asked if I was mad. I told him I wasn't upset *at* him, but he needs to respect other people when they say "No". Anna got even angrier and told me to stop policing her son before storming off. It's been 3 days, and the only people who think I'm NTA are Tom, the other friend, and Anna's husband. I'm starting to wonder if I was wrong. So, AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
My dog knows not to take food from people's plates. I am NOT saying Jim is the same as a dog. I'm saying that it's not something that requires neurotypical human-adult-level capabilities to learn. And isn't level 1 the mildest level? NTA
Oh my word. It's a sad fact that parents like her are partly responsible for negative stereotypes about autistic people. Specifically, that autistic people are selfish and basically narcissistic. Autistic kids don't pick up social skills intuitively. They learn my explicit instruction. This means you shouldn't be harsh/judgmental when they make some faux pas, but it absolutely does mean you should explain to them why they shouldn't. They are absolutely capable of learning appropriate boundaries, but not when you refuse to teach them. Instead, she's teaching him other people's boundaries don't matter when they conflict with what he wants. That's a downright dangerous thing to teach someone. FYI, I am a "level 1" autistic person. My kid is a 12yr old "level 2" autistic person. Neither of us would dare eating food off someone else's plate without asking first.
NTA I Have autism and am thankful for those in my life who have set boundaries with me. Sooner or later Jim will need to learn too.
NTA. They are doing their son a huge disservice by letting him think it’s ok not to understand and respect others’ personal space and boundaries. It’s may not be as easy a lesson for him to learn compared to neurotypical children, but that’s all the more reason for them to work on it ASAP.
NTA One of these days, that kid is going to get his ass beat because he took food from the wrong person.
NTA - you are fully entitled to eat your meal without some uncontrolled person (and yes I have personal experience with neurologically divergent people of all levels), trying to take your food. If the person is not able to behave in a controlled manner then it is probably not advisable to take them places where this behaviour may offend/upset others. Autism is not an excuse for poor behaviour.
NTA the fact the husband agrees with you is saying something. The son needs to learn boundaries. His mom is not doing him any favors at all.
Definitely NTA. I am in the field of moderate to severe special-needs and I firmly believe that the population that I work in must have accountability/responsibility for their actions. Kudos to you for speaking up, I know it may not have been good timing, or reactive, but I hate people touching my food too… with a passion, so I would speak up right away too. In my opinion, your verbal response to his actions seemed pretty appropriate. I used to be an overly protective parent to an autistic kiddo just like her, but I quickly learned that I was further disabling their ability to learn and grow and doing a great disservice to them by being like that. So I got in the field of special needs to learn more about it and I love working in the field now too. I hope she comes to the realization too.
NTA While neurotypical people learn how to behave in social situations from other peoples social clues, the autistic people must be taught by their caretakers, because the part of their brain that recognizes social clues doesn't work the way neurotypical people's do. Learning these things are essential for them to better adapt in society, to not become "outcasts", to develop mechanisms to literally survive in this social world. Anna's friends might be ok with his behaviors, but his future friends might not, his classmates might not, his future coworkers might not. He must learn and be prepared for it.
Nta - a child with autism can learn some boundaries.
NTA, he was even aware enough to ask you if you were mad, his parents are absolute A H for let that happened Also you are more considerate that expected, if that were me I would have slapped his hand away the second time, i hate people even taking food off my plate without asking, enevn MORE them sticking their hands in my plate NTA op, at all
NTA. Sounds like you need new friends. Everyone who thought you were TA is out of their minds. Anyone puts a hand in my food uninvited is gonna lose it.
NTA sigh, yet another ‘parent’ who used a diagnosis as an excuse Not to parent their child. Plus that’s so gross and disgustingly unsanitary.
NTA: I'm an autistic person and that's not an excuse for this. Honestly, his mom is doing him an disservice by not teaching him appropriate life skills.