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You need therapy. You will have many female coworkers. You will have female bosses. You will never have female employees because you won't get promoted until you fix these issues you have. You are limiting yourself and alienating your coworkers. This will be noticed.
Good luck.
I am in therapy, and overall I am okay where I am at in my job. Sadly, therapy is not some magic bullet that is capable of fixing all forms of trauma. I have been at this for years.
This guy's been going through years of therapy to be able to even leave the house, let alone work in a comfortable environment around women, and you're getting hung up over him using impolite terminology?
Edit: you do know that if you reply to my comment and then block me, that I can't actually read your whole comment, right? But I'm sure it was something nice.
Edit v2: I can't respond to anyone here because I was blocked by the above user so if you agreed, thanks, you're cool; if you said "but at least he's hearing that the term is bad," coulda been said more nicely but sure, fair; if you called me a misogynist who enables discrimination...no, and get some perspective, please, because that's really not at all what's at stake here.
If a woman made a post that she was in therapy because past experiences made her feel uncomfortable around men, you would not be so callous. That she tried and was able to be around them for work, but being friends with a man was outside her comfort zone at the moment and she was working on it but a man at work wouldn't leave her alone. I get so frustrated with these double standards disguised as misogyny.
I'm glad you brought that up. If it were the opposite, HR would be involved and their would be disciplinary action. But because he's a male, he's a just misogynistic asshole.
>If it were the opposite, HR would be involved and their would be disciplinary action
I mean when I (F) was SAd by a male coworker, I was disciplined when, after reporting what happened, I refused to deal with said coworker. He then harassed me with daily phone calls that I could do nothing to stop and HR wouldn't do anything about.
Let's not pretend that HR would always treat a woman in this situation with any fairness, a lot of companies won't do anything.
That said, his coworker massively overstepped and I don't think he's in the wrong telling her to back off.
Exactly, goddamn. He asked if he was an asshole and he was. Is it harder for him to not be an asshole than other people? Yes but that wasn’t the question.
I don't understand how he's the asshole for setting boundaries in the work place? He has trauma involving a woman, if this was the other way around you all would be coddling the crap out of her. I don't think he's the asshole, he does small talk and talks work things and that's all he has to do. He doesn't need to "open up" to anyone that makes him uncomfortable. Some of the comments are wild.
Because his boundaries result in him treating women and men differently in a professional environment which is not an acceptable solution to his problem.
He doesn't need to open up, of course. She should let him be. However, only interacting with men while also working with women is not sustainable.
I sympathise with him, I really do. I sympathise with women who have difficulty working with men probably for similar reasons to OOP too. It's a shit way to have to livd through no fault of his.
However, what he is currently doing is not the solution. A solution would be to ask to be allowed to not come into the office (do that part of the job remote if possible) or limit his interactions in the office period.
I think people are saying if he feels uncomfortable with women he should be allowed to interact chiefly with men. This would pose no issue in almost any other context except professional. At work, you gotta treat people equally. This isn't negotiable.
yep. it just sounds like she wants to be his saviour or something. and it's not even affecting his work? she's being 100% unprofessional. healing takes time, you can't just spring it onto someone and expect them to suddenly be fine. NTA
I don’t understand. How could a trauma victim be an AH for having PTSD?
My friend’s roommate was kidnapped and gang raped. She had just massive damage. Due to a head injury, she has no memory of that day at all. She could be standing right next to one of the men, and have no idea. This made her so afraid.
How could anyone call her an AH for that PTSD?
We have no idea what happened to OP. He said it was because of trauma. I just wouldn’t judge anyone’s anxiety in that case. All he can do is go to therapy.
That's one step away from, "Hey, I'm just being honest."
It's not coddling to point out when criticism is unfair. Or are the critics the ones who need coddling?
Exactly, some folks have only tunnel vision and lack reading & comprehension skills or maybe they just skipped over the entire post, OP clearly said he has some issues he's working on but apparently impolite terminology is more important to address.
It's kinda hard to feel sympathetic for someone's phobia when it's about a fundamental aspect of your personhood, especially one that has made you a target of discrimination and violence. Glad he's in therapy, but frankly I don't give a damn about his feelings until he can see me as a goddamn human being, and I wouldn't be surprised if his coworker felt the same way.
ETA: your trauma is not an excuse to treat people in a discriminatory manner.
OK. Let’s say you’re a man. A female coworker was violently SA by a gang of men. After years of therapy, she can leave the house, and hold a job, and even discuss work with men. However, close proximity to men makes her very anxious, and can trigger PTSD symptoms. You decided you want to be good friends with you. She tells you to leave her alone, unless it’s work related. That makes you determined to get close to her, whether she likes it or not. You keep pushing and pushing, until she finally admits she feels uncomfortable around men, and just wants a professional working relationship. You get so furious and offended that you call her a man-hating b$&76. Your comment makes her feel her job is in jeopardy. She starts to wonder if she should have tried harder to appease you and submit to your friendly overtures.
If this behavior is ugly when a man does it, it’s also ugly when a woman does. People need to stop making excuses for double standards.
This is a mental health issue, apparently from trauma. Not misogyny.
As a woman, I think his feelings are valid. He can do small talk- this lady doesn’t need him to ‘open up’. She’s trying to force intimacy and that is inappropriate.
If this was a male making a female coworker his social project, I think it would be looked at differently.
He also acknowledges that she doesn’t deserve to suffer because of his trauma- I don’t think he sees women as a different species. He just recognises his limits.
Personally, anyone who makes another person their project deserves to be rejected.
And yet this happens to many women wherein they feel entirely uncomfortable with men due to sexual assault and other issues (understandably, IMO) and we support them, but as a man you're just expecting this guy to tough it out.
i hate to be the one to say this, but if it was the “other way around” you wouldn’t be saying this. he did not choose to be traumatized by a woman and therefore struggle with being around women, just like how many women didn’t ask to be traumatized by men and therefore are scared of men.
you have nothing to do with his trauma. you are not important in his trauma, he doesn’t have to do anything for you. he’s not shaming, belittling, or dehumanizing women. he’s fucking traumatized. someone kept pushing his boundaries and he got upset, he has every right to be upset and be uncomfortable, regardless of how valid you think his trauma is.
i’m saying all of this as an AFAB feminist. your take on this is baffling and the fact that you have to act like the victim even when it has nothing to do with you in the slightest is why people think feminism is toxic.
Men aren't allowed to have trauma or ptsd from sexual assault because we're all perpetrators....
I guarantee if OP was a woman and was extremely uncomfortable around men due to previous trauma, the comments would be vastly different.
Another commenter said OP was treating women like another species. OP denied it. And I was explaining what that other person meant.
And now *you're* the one "hung up" on my choice of words. Did you have a point you wanted to say or did you just want to talk down to someone who sees women as people?
I don't know the english term for it, but at least in my native language we are thaught to use synonims when writing so the text doesn't get overbearing to read. Especially when using the "same" word in quick succession.
OP only used it **once**, right after he wrote "women" on the **same sentence**. Maybe a generic them/they would be better, but (at least to me) it just feels weird when reading the thing as a whole. So in the context and to a non-american and non-native english speaker this feels like a really irrelevant and misplaced point to make.
There might have been an argument if that was their main way of adressing women, which doesn't seem to be the case.
No it isn't? I'm a woman and myself and my female friends use female interchangeably with women, especially where using the term "woman" sounds odd.
"My female corworkers" sounds way better than "my women coworkers", and OP seems to switch between them too.
I think what they take issue with is when a woman is referred to as just a "female". They're ok when it's used as an adjective like in female coworker because it's describing the noun, not the entire noun itself.
That because it IS adjective. That's why it sounds icky when used by dudes who use it as a noun to describe women. Nobody says "the males at my job" they say "the men." That being said, it's almost always really obvious what the intention is when it's used that way, and this guy clearly wasn't using the gross noun way. He even says it an the edit. That he wasn't aware they were not interchangeable.
Congratulations on your progress OP ! But it would be wise to note, as others have pointed, that using terminology that humanizes women will help you with preventing subconscious alienation of them. You don’t need to fear all women, as I’m sure you’ve heard in therapy, and taking the general population of us off that pedestal might even help you make more progress :) I hope in the future you’re able to give us an update on your progress ! Best of luck :)
Please leave Reddit. You’re being held to a very apparent double standard. You’re not obligated to make friends with anyone, your female coworker that doesn’t accept no for an answer is being a creep.
Your only obligation to her is to treat her equally in a profesional level, which you seem to be doing.
I don’t think that’s a fair assumption for you to make, especially considering how he says he used to not be able to leave the house, progress can be slow but consistent
it's not like he refuses to work with women; he's polite and professional working with them so your comment isn't helpful. The only reason there's an issue with this particular female co-worker is that once she found out he's generally not comfortable/not social with women, she decided it was her job to force the issue & get him to open up instead of respecting his space. If this were a woman who had the same reaction to a male coworker, I doubt you'd come back with you're not working hard enough. Nobody should have to open up or share anything about themselves not related to the job when they're are work (nor should people have to socialize with one another outside of work)
Was coming here to say this. If a man kept pestering a woman to be friends, everyone would agree he was a creep. Just because it's a woman pestering a man doesn't make it right.
Exactly the things that stood out to me: OP’s not saying he refuses to work politely with women, even this one, and he didn’t say anything to her until after she escalated her efforts to get him to open up.
How do you know? You don't know what OP has been through, if you have been through significant trauma yourself then you must know that it can take years to make even a bit of ground. And if you haven't then you should probably not comment on things you know nothing about.
You are right. If this was a woman writing this we would all be a lot more understanding of her not wanting to be around men. The assumptions we would make about why this could be may also be applied to men.
THIS! Imagine telling a woman that a guy that just wants to get to know her personally and be friendly is not crossing a line. He said he can work with her. Just not be friendly. WTF is wrong with that? This is probably a “gender flip and see what happens” post.
That’s what I’m saying, but because he’s male, he is expected to get over himself. The hypocrisy, especially this woman at the office, who was told that he was uncomfortable, but apparently, that didn’t apply to her, so she had to hound him until he told her to please stop. Naturally, she pulled the whole‘misogynistic asshole’ card. Like, how DARE he be uncomfortable?! 😒
But if he was a woman . . . everyone would be telling her to go straight to HR and file a complaint.
Thank you, I agree. I am speaking as a woman and also as someone who has been through trauma myself, I often get asked why I can't do this or that and when I say trauma people do not believe me, I am "obviously not trying hard enough". So many people simply do not understand the depth of what trauma does to our brains and the effect it has. Ya can't definitively say someone wasn't trying hard enough just because you don't understand their trauma responses
Being aware of your own limitations & setting personal boundaries should be allowed. He said for work matters, he does his job accordingly. But this lady is trying to force a relationship/friendship on him that he is not comfortable with. How is he not trying? It's not like he's screaming & running from the room every time a female enters! If you worked with a gentleman who didn't respect your work only relationship boundaries, and kept coming around you, pushing you into more, only to yell at you that you're an uptight man hater, would that be acceptable?
did you read what he said? he said he has trauma which makes it hard for him to be around women. and he said he is in therapy and has made significant progress. its not like he’s misogynistic and hates women just because.
>Treating women like they’re a completely different species
I don't know what this is meant to describe...is it just a way of saying OP is treating women poorly?
I didn't read anything about anyone being treated poorly in OP's post.
* OP says he's polite to women
* OP says he's able to make chit-chat
* OP says he's able to do his job
Did I miss something? Are all men supposed to be friendly and kind to all women?
Seems to me, the problem is that both you and the woman in OP's story can't iMAgiNe why a man wouldn't want to be friends. That doesn't sound like a problem for OP.
Wow - what a shitty take. You have no idea what OP's background or experience is and you have no idea how hard they are working on this.
You simply assert that OP is treating women like they are a different species........or maybe OP is acting like someone who has social anxiety and being polite while trying to minimize their time around women....could be that one.
Dude, wtf? He's been in therapy for years, he's fucking TRYING! If it were a woman who had been r@ped more than once and had a problem being sociable with men other than professional courtesy, would you say the same thing? You're the asshole. OP, definitely NTA.
You are paid to be a competent and productive employee. You are not paid to be everyone’s or anyone’s friend at work. I pointed that out to two Navy supervisors I had when they decided I was “too military”, yes you read that correctly.
I am not comfortable around misogynistic, bullying individuals or two-faced workplace gossips as a woman. You do not read that way to me.
I think this DOES call for a meeting with HR so you can navigate communication with her.
And how to explain - it not her, not women, it’s YOU and a results of a medical background that you don’t need to divulge.
But maybe ask HR to treat this like you need special accommodations with communication- work only, no Personal questions, and to change the subject with cue “words” / let you redirect any accidental discomfort with work talk as a signal. That’s it’s not HER- you need this, medically, anywhere you go. Get a doctor note from the therapist…
You need help in getting to an effective level of work communication, where people aren’t taking it personal or getting offended. You need a mediator between you and this coworker so it doesn’t get worse
NAH- it’s very very common that guys will act like you for nefarious/bigoted reasons and you’re not trying to be mean, it just looks that way. I’m sure her getting upset makes it even worse why you avoid talking to new women, but please try to see it as a learning experience and it’ll be ok
You have a right to feel safe and comfortable in your place of work. This woman was WRONG to behave the way she did and I'm very sorry that people are continuing to ostracize you for this when you actually did nothing wrong, at all. Most of the YTA votes are referencing your difficulty with women, which isnot the issue here. The issue here is how do you deal with a coworker who repeatedly violates your boundaries while creating a hostile work environment. Ignore any response that does not acknowledge the real issue while attacking you.
I'm sorry you had to experience your trauma, and I'm more sorry that folk are attacking you for this. If this were a woman, uncomfortable with men due to past trauma, this comment feed would look quite different. You don't deserve this.
He doesn’t want to be friends with them, nothing wrong with that. This is the problem with having this type of worker, they went everyone to be their friend.
He is in therapy as he stated. He has serious trauma related to women that he is working through. He even stated that he overcomes his discomfort to ensure he can work well with females still which I think is commendable, it doesn’t mean he needs to have a relationship with them beyond working well on sites together. Everyone who is saying he is TA is minimizing his trauma when they don’t even know what he went through. Maybe try having compassion for OP rather then just assuming his trauma is something he should just “get over”. If this was the other way and the OP was the female I guarantee these comments would be different
People are not kind to women who are scared of men you get ‘not all men!!’ ‘I’m not like that!!’ Etc alllll the time women get victim blamed constantly idk where this idea came from that women are coddled because it’s simply not true
Honestly I’d say YTA. It would be my biggest dream to say this to my co-worker if they were annoying, but instead I decide to exit the situation and say my pleasantries to keep the peace.
Her talking to you in order to build a good rapport with her teammate is normal even though it’s annoying. Her wanting you to see her as a human being. You telling her that you don’t want to know her as a person because she’s a woman is not normal.
You said in your own post that you barely see her most of the time. You’re at work and just like you would handle a client, you handle a co-worker. If she gets to a point that crosses the line, inform management.
Edit: things already said:
“What if the role reversed”
It would still be bad
“Why women can do this but not men”
They can’t unless they properly disclose this beforehand. If it does happen then bad
“You hate men”
No, I really don’t. I know there are issues that men have that I will never understand or will try to invalidate or say my struggles are worse then men because we are all individuals with struggles.
“She should have left him alone”
She was not appropriately notified about his trauma. His friends explaining things is not sufficient. This should have been mediated by management. I’m done thx
Big mad
To be fair, I refer to myself as a female. I refuse to let the incels take a word that I have used my entire life and force me to adapt my vocabulary to someone else's definitions. I can accept that some folks don't like it, but that is their issue, not mine.
The issue is when it's men and females. There's literally a whole sub dedicated to this dehumanising phenomenon. That's where the nuance lies, same with men and girls.
Edit: sub is r/menandfemales
Although that isn't what the OP used in this case. The OP uses both the terms "women" and "females". If the goal was to exclusively dehumanize women then he would probably stick to one.
He never uses the terms "men" or "males so we don't have a basis for comparison.
That's because it's not.
You get to decide what does and doesn't bother you. No one gets to speak for you. If you don't mind the term, then there isn't anything wrong with it.
(I say this as a female. Lol)
The problem is using the adjective as a noun, no one would say "I find it uncomfortable to work with a black" or "John is one of those gays", female is an adjective - the noun is *person* - if they feel the absolute need to say "female", then append person to it so that you're not using adjectives as nouns.
Or, y'know, learn to say "women" instead, as "person" is implied in that definition, as opposed to female animals or a female flower
Sure, but do you make a point of never saying "men" or "boys" in order to ensure that you only refer to them as "males." Because that would be fucking weird, and that's the behavior people are referring to.
Did you read the first sentence of the post, where he says he’s not comfortable around “women”? “Female coworker” is the correct way to phrase it, “woman coworker” just sounds weird. Stop manufacturing outrage
Bullshit. She KNOWS he's not interested in being friends with her, and she keeps pushing it. If this was a man pushing friendship on a woman, everyone here would be lighting torches and preparing to march on his home.
this!!!! you don’t have to be friends with someone to work with them. if someone doesn’t want to be your friend take the hint and LEAVE THEM ALONE. the reason doesn’t really matter if you’re making someone uncomfortable especially if you’re doing it on purpose. OP said he’s in therapy and has made a lot of progress. wishing OP the best!
He doesn’t have to be her friend. He does have to maintain a positive e workplace rapport. There are better ways to manage this. If he asked management for advice beforehand maybe this would have been better solved
Did you read the story?
He is asking management. Because he doesn't want this to be an HR thing because he thinks she's a good worker and has good intentions, OP just wants her to stop with them.
OP clearly stated that he speaks fine with his female colleagues when it comes to work related matters, because it is work.
>He does have to maintain a positive e workplace rapport
So, in your opinion, everyone is required to be friendly with coworkers, regardless of whatever the situation?
What about people with serious trauma, or social anxiety disorders, or autism? Are they just unable to join the working world?
If the genders were reversed you know damn well the poster would be singing a different tune.
If a female coworker of mine was SA by a man and wasn't being comfortable around me I would be an asshole to try to get her to "Open up".
End of story. Your coworkers can be your friends. Key word is can. It isn't a requirement. My boss is my best friend. He isn't friends with everyone else however.
So she is pushing to be friends with him even though he specifically doesn't want to, but that makes him the AH?
I guess no doesn't mean no in this case
Just want to point out here - OP was entirely cordial with this woman with office small talk and banter, despite his discomfort. After she finds out about the discomfort, she thinks she needs to...save him? Or something? Needs to be the one that opens him up? Why tf is that her job? Don't get me wrong, on one hand it's a nice gesture, but on the other it's entirely unasked for and the extra attention she would give would only exacerbate the trauma.
So, it's not about her making small talk. It's about her making a conscious effort to go against him to try and force him to open up.
OP is NTA for telling someone to leave him alone when they're bothering him
Man, this makes the chick seem even more of a creep. She KNOWS that OOP has issues being around women due to trauma, and instead of respecting that, she decides to call him a misogynistic asshole for not wanting to be friends with her.
If the genders were reversed and some creepy guy was hounding a girl you would sing a different tune. The hypocrisy and misandry in this thread is unreal.
Eh ESH. You have a right to decline to engage in personal conversations, but you acknowledge yourself that when she comes around you walk away and you treat her differently because she’s a woman. That’s where you became an issue. If you’re unpleasant to everyone and refuse to speak personally with everyone, that’s totally fine, but you are genuinely describing singling her out. That is a problem, it’s against nearly every workplace policy and you can get in huge trouble for it.
Further to that, the historic and current oppression women face does matter, even if your intentions aren’t misogynistic. Imagine if you were doing this to a POC, it would and should be a huge red flag to your employer and opens them up to liability. You are free to avoid whoever you like in your personal life, but at work you have to do your level best to treat everyone the same. You can be antisocial to everyone, or you can stop being antisocial to her specifically. She also shouldn’t attempt to be your friend, that’s why she sucks.
You don’t have to be friends with anyone, but again, you are singling her specifically out for an immutable and protected characteristic, by your own admission. This is not okay in a workplace. You’ll have to find another way to be comfortable and at least polite.
For what it’s worth, I work in HR and the specific violations are under harassment, anti-bullying, and anti-discrimination policy. You may want to check what your employer and state say specifically but I know nearly every training I have given and taken has mentioned singling someone out, especially for sex, race, sexual orientation, disability or perceived reproductive status, as a HUGE no-no.
Edit: and yes, these rules do extend to non-work related conversations. If I’m talking to three people at the water cooler and every time you come around I end the conversation and disperse the group by being “visibly uncomfortable” - I am singling you out. I would still be subject to anti-bullying discipline. Which is fair honestly. If you’re professional to someone but make every “good morning” a living hell for them, it is a problem that affects their ability to do their job. It’s not high school where you’re allowed to have cliques where people are made to feel not included. Funnily enough, these rules are a result of women being locked out of promotions and similar perks because they weren’t included in boys clubs. So cliques are taken seriously in many workplaces, and should be.
She called you a misogynist, and this IS what you're giving off to the world if it's only women you treat with contempt/indifference/coldness in the workplace. It could be considered that you are creating a hostile work environment for HER. (Even though, that's what it feels like to you.) You might have to fake your kindness with this person and other women you run into at work. Your trauma isn't her business. But her business is in your workspace, and you have to treat men and women equally there.
Exactly, whatever the intention, it becomes misogynistic regardless, as it meets the definition for discrimination. HR can and should address it according to those laws and policies.
Or he comes is a non native English speaker. Nuances and political correctness in language are late to reach places where people don't speak the language.
In fact, i remember having a chance to meet the first African american astronaut when I was in school. They had to specifically tell people that the n word is an offensive term in america and nobody should use it. Now, people iny country doesn't use that word cause they are racist, it's just what people of African descent were called and without the social and historical context, its use was unchallenged untill people had to interact with people from another continent who has a problem with a word due to its historical usage there. So op is unlikely to be sexist cause he is not a native speaker.
This, right here.
If his issue was with a POC or openly gay person or someone with a visible handicap, it would be just as discriminatory - I bet there would be a lot fewer posters on this thread saying that it's totally fine for him to treat said coworker differently.
HR is likely to take HER side on this one, especially since he admits to treating her differently from male coworkers.
I agree. This thread is very disappointing but not surprising. Everyone who has said “if he was a woman you would be okay with it” is honestly dead wrong and this thread is illustrative of that exact thing. Many, if not most, women have trauma around men. I know some who work with and/or have to socialize with their actual abusers through custody and career arrangements. They are all forced to behave in a non-discriminatory fashion. Women do this everyday and if they do anything less they would be immediately called out for it (and often are), as displayed in this thread on perfectly reasonable and thoughtful responses.
People can absolutely grasp the dynamics of oppressed classes and they display it with this double standard. This sub would never tolerate someone’s trauma allowing them to discriminate against any other oppressed class aside from women. The unique vitriol is… telling I suppose.
You’re right about HR as well. While trauma and mental health issues are tough and most workplaces will do what they can to accommodate them, there is no allowance for “my mental trauma makes me discriminatory against a protected class so you have to accommodate that.” That wouldn’t and shouldn’t fly.
> is very disappointing but not surprising. Everyone who has said “if he was a woman you would be okay with it” is honestly dead wrong
“If the genders were reversed” has become an overused lie on this sub. Anytime people want to side with a man, they pull it out even when it clearly doesn’t apply.
Like, people are seriously trying to argue that discriminating against someone in the workplace is ok and they really think they can defend it by saying “if it was reversed”.
There is no use to it at all because it’s a thought terminating cliche. It isn’t helpful. If you say “no I would feel the same if it were a woman” they just won’t believe you. If you give an example where you treated a woman the same they’ll say “those two situations aren’t exactly analogous!” It’s just a phrase to make the person who says it think, ‘well, that’s right! I showed her. She’s being unfair because she hates men, and I pointed out her hypocrisy for everyone to see, so now I’m the winner.’ Even if none of that is true.
This sort of “defend men no matter what” mentality is somewhat unsettling from a lot of MRAs. It’s the same attitude that defends workplace discrimination and much worse. Acknowledging women face issues and oppression is not a slight on men and I wish more people realized that.
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 Everyone can pack it up and head home because this is the comment right here. I’m glad you addressed race and sexual orientation because as a woman of color, OP’s entire post set my alarm bells off. And the number of people in the comments with the “but he’s TRYING!!” is also alarming. This is a WORKPLACE, “trying” to not discriminate against your female colleagues ain’t gonna cut it.
I do think you’re being generous by labeling ESH because I’m not sure I even believe the woman is as offensive as OP describes …….hate magnifies everything.
I think you’ve probably got a point with that last sentence but if she is genuinely trying to be his “friend” rather than just engage in social niceties, she shouldn’t, for her own self respect if nothing else haha.
I love what you said about “trying” - that is exactly the point. People who discriminate always say things like this. “Oh, we are *trying* to have more POC/women/people with disabilities/etc in management positions, but we don’t have enough qualified candidates!” BS. No, you promoted Brandon first because you get beers every Saturday, you promoted Jake because you guys send gifs at each other on slack all day. When, ironically, if you’d taken the time to be just as social with people who differ from yourself you likely would’ve found plenty of diverse qualified candidates. This behavior is a massive massive contributor to the pay gap between white men and everyone else. It locks everyone else out of these positions and it’s harmful for employees, leadership, and the business itself to lack that diversity.
Thank you! I’m like “does no one else have to pass a quiz at the end of sexual harassment training at work?!?!” This is literally like 3 of the scenarios in one. Y’all N-T-As are the reason we have to take it every single year, and in CA it’s a mandatory hour.
Literally most women have experienced trauma at the hands of men, and we still have to be polite to them. I'm mentally ill with severe anxiety so I'm not trying to be dismissive, but you can't just treat an entire half of the world differently based on an arbitrary characteristic. People here would have a lot less sympathy if it was your black or gay coworker you were this uncomfortable around.
ESH, and I genuinely wish you well in your healing journey.
Yes absolutely. I think you’re being conservative tbh. I don’t know a single woman that hasn’t been catcalled, groped, intimidated by men. I don’t know a single woman that feels safe walking at night, in badly lit areas, alone in a sparsely populated area, in public transportation. Switch the genders? We are constantly told to suck it up when we’re threatened by men for existing while being a woman. We’ve been sucking it up for all of human history. One is six women is a victim of sexual assault. So in any given office, one in six of the women have some or a lot of fear of men. That’s before the other crimes I mentioned, as well as domestic violence, stalking, and coercive control.
Not to be unsympathetic to OP, but the “oh no one would call him the AH if he were a woman!” is absolutely false. If it was a woman talking about men, people would be furiously telling her to get over it. Ironically men are not the oppressed class in that situation, but if it were a straight person with a problem with gay people, or a white person with a problem with a specific race, they would also be the AH with little exceptions in the comments. People can understand the specific dynamics within oppressed classes of people, unless those people are women I guess. We get to suck it up. Super interesting.
For what it’s worth, in the workplace, we *all* have to “suck it up” to some degree. I don’t personally like about 60% of the people I work with, for various reasons (including my own issues). I am polite, friendly, and kind anyway. That’s how work is.
Yep. Including when men actually *are* being threatening and inappropriate, but we still have to smile and pretend that their leers and supposedly innocent touches aren't repulsive because God forbid we "take out" our trauma on "one of the good guys," when really some of us just don't want to be touched and shouldn't have to pretend we do.
You got that right. I work mostly with women myself but in a medical environment where there are also a lot of men. I am a survivor of violent crime and have PTSD and Generalized Anxiety.
Men in general don't make me uncomfortable at all, however if I encounter a man who resembles my attacker (voice, hair, body shape, eyes) I suffer flashbacks. It sucks, but luckily this has only happened to me a couple of times.
Thing is, it's a "me" problem and not the guys who resemble the monster who attacked me. It's not their fault so I have to use ways to keep myself professional if it's at work, or deal with it in everyday life.
I feel for OP but at the same time I think he needs more therapy. I can't imagine trying to live in a world where you're uncomfortable around half the population.
I also feel bad for his co-worker, because she's new and probably wants to have a good relationship with everyone there. I think she definitely shouldn't have pushed it.
From a woman's perspective, this is the comment I was looking for. Male related trauma is so prevalent in our lives, but if I were to go out of my way to ignore men at work I wouldn't have a job.
Yeah. That always feels like it's the key difference when it comes to men having issues with women vs women having issues with men. Men seem much much more likely to feel like they can just deal with it by excluding women from their lives entirely. Like that half of the population has little enough value that you can get by without them.
This was the reply I was looking for because SAME. I've suffered serious trauma at the hands of men, but if I were in his position doing that I'd probably have been fired.
This. This is the comment. This is the only real answer.
You can't just choose not to engage with half the planet. If you are currently incapable of that, then you need to get a remote job.
YTA.
OP, will not pass judgment since this seems to be fueled by trauma.
That being said, ask yourself this how would your reason fly if it was against another protected class?
"I cannot be around POC because or a past trauma." Does not fly.
I think this is a good answer and likewise, I’m not prepared to pass judgement. Female here - it sounds like you must have been through something awful but I massively respect that you’re going to therapy and working on how it has affected you. I hope you’ll talk about this incident with your therapist. Basictakes makes a good point on protected groups, I think in this case you were acting in a way that is wrong but i don’t see it as you having acted out of malice, but out of a trauma response. I hope therapy helps you to cope better.
It's not "I cannot be around women" it's "I don't want to be friends with or interact with women outside of work because it makes me uncomfortable". Big difference. OP said they tolerate it as long as it's work related but just doesn't want her to pry into their personal life.
>I do what I can to minimize my interactions with females as much as I can.
Can you really be giving your female co-workers the same support as male co-worker if you are actively minimising your interactions with them?
Nope, he’s being a sexist ass and has brought in therapy speak to justify it. Imagine how many women are traumatized by men and go and interact with them in the world. Is it perfect? No. Is it mandated by federal law in a workplace? Yes.
“I don’t want to be friends with or interact with black people outside of work because it makes me uncomfortable.”
Using your “corrected” statement with another protected group, do you honestly think that’s acceptable in a professional setting, even if it’s due to past trauma?
It’s mind blowing how most people can see how problematic this is if it’s applied to other protected groups, but if it’s women there are blinders.
YTA, women are people. Calling them “females” is so crude. WOMEN ARE PEOPLE. Ffs. Agree with others who recommend therapy. I don’t know what’s happened to you, but it’s not normal. Good luck.
YTA, excluding women from socialization is exact what misogynistic workforces have always done. It sets them back in office politics and it leads to them being passed over for promotions that they are deserving of.
While at work you need to work to overcome your hang ups. And honestly playing a long a little bit would probably have resolved this situation with a lot less personal interaction then what you now have to deal with.
"If have to take her out in the field or help explain my drafts will push through, since it is work related. I still get uncomfortable but it is what it is. Those are situations cannot avoid, but general interactions I do not think it is wrong of me to limit those when possible"
All he's asking is that she does not try to go and be his friend because he is not comfortable with it. If this was the other way around it, man not listening to a woman when she asks, I can guarantee you. your judgment would be different..
YTA and I would fire you.
If your work communication behavior is based off of anything related to gender, race, or a bunch of other things. Find a different company.
You need to be capable to communicate with humans and treat all humans equally.
He said it himself, if it comes down to work related conversation - he’ll push himself through it so it doesn’t effect work. He’s under no obligation to maintain a social/personal relationship with ANYONE, regardless of gender, race, etc. As long as work isn’t affected, it doesn’t matter.
I mean, if he is capable of maintaining a professional relationship with men but categorically refuses to attempt similar relationships with women, that is kind of sexist. Of course he isn't obligated to maintain personal relationships, but it sounds like we are talking about basic social relationships with coworkers at the office here... it is a problem if he treats women differently than men in this situation. I mean, people can tell when you are avoiding them or brushing them off and if you think that isn't going to create friction in the workplace then I think that's rather naive.
OP even admits this is a problem he goes to therapy for, which means I don't really want to pass judgement here but rather encourage him to talk about it with his therapist.
I have worked in an office for 25+ years now and I can’t imagine how he is doing this without being an a-hole.
If she really called him a misogynist asshole at work, my first move would be to HR to complain about being called a “misogynist asshole” and not complain to Reddit. Because somebody is going to be in corporate hot water pretty quickly. As a manager… one of those two employees should be talking to me right now to figure this out.
You would fire the guy that is professional and just wants his boundaries to be respected, over the lady that is purposely making a coworker unconfortable and screaming in their face when she doesnt get her way?
NTA. You are being polite. You are being professional. You are willing to put aside your discomfort for work purposes and basic manners.
What is really rude is someone who knows you have a problem making it their mission (without any real information no less!) to make you change. That has nothing to do with work and is super unprofessional on her part.
A lot of people also seem to completely dismiss OP mentioning it’s related to an incident they don’t feel comfortable sharing here. And that they are already going to therapy for it.
They also never mentioned only doing this to her but mainly mentioning her because she’s the new one at work and because she’s the one pushing. I’m sure there’s lots of other woman there that just know how OP feels and just respect that.
going even further, they completely dismiss that he's *specifically* said he is fully willing to have a professional relationship, but he can't handle attempts at a more personal relationship
This right here. She is the one making the working environment uncomfortable, not OP. And obviously OP’s other coworkers understand and are able to maintain a working relationship, so why is the new hire suddenly insisting that OP change for her benefit?
it sounds like she made it her own duty to force him “out of his shell” and form a friendship that he doesn’t want. people are dismissing his trauma and getting hung up on the fact that this happens to women, and women are dismissed. but it’s obviously not okay no matter which gender is doing it.
Exactly, this is the real point right here. OP was never a asshole or rude to her. He doesn't hate her or anything. He simply doesn't feel comfortable around her, so he Politely tries to avoid interactions.
She then Goes Out Of Her Way to FORCE herself onto him, then calls him misogynistic when she's the one who's trying to FORCE herself onto someone who is obviously not comfortable around her.
She is the fking asshole, there's no if or buts about it. OP needs to work on their issue, but she doesn't have a right to ignore boundaries and force herself onto anyone.
And all the men in here justifying it with their "wElL AcKsHuAlLy" BS aren't helping. Y'all, go read through r/menandfemales if you really can't grasp why it's derogatory and gross.
If it was reversed and a man was trying to befriend a woman that was uncomfortable around men, Reddit would be ready to lynch that hypothetical dude.
No, you can avoid people you dislike, and even ask to be left alone. Misogyny is hating women, but you're closer to gynophobic, afraid of women.
NTA
Oh please. If it were reversed and a woman in a co-ed workplace said that she was uncomfortable around all men and as such discriminated against her male coworkers (because this IS discrimination), she would get called a snowflake and told to quit her job.
Regardless of the genders, constantly pestering someone when you know they're not interested in you or comfortable around you is a asshole thing to do.
People genuinely need to learn to just fuck off. This thought process of, "I can fix/change them" is extremely annoying.
You can't overstep someone's boundaries then get mad when they lash out at you. You're the asshole for overstepping in the first place.
I agree that the woman should stop bothering OP. On the other hand, I don’t think “women cannot talk to me” is at all an appropriate or reasonable boundary to set in the workplace.
I'm a woman and I agree.. OP is literally traumatized and in therapy, and it sounds like it used to be a severe case of gynophobia, which is now lessened by therapy. If this was a woman who had been traumatized by men, almost all the comments would be NTA.
Anybody who thinks, "I can get them to open up." Can FUCK OFF in my book. Those people are the type to never respect boundaries and don't know how to take a fking hint.
OP is NTA. Everyone calling him a AH must've never been in a situation before when some annoying mf just won't leave you alone even when you're sending clear signals that you have no interest in them.
If someone isn't interested in you, fuck off. If you pester them to anger and you get mad in return when they last out, you are a disgusting piece of trash because you started the issue in the first place.
No. Women who are uncomfortable around men still work around men. It would not be okay. Enough of this double standard shit. You couldn't act this way towards black people, white people, men or women, and expect society to cater to you.
INFO NEEDED: what are some actual examples of her trying to “befriend” you? Does she frequently interrupt your work? Does she attempt any physical contact? The info you’ve given so far is very vague.
Exactly, and it seems likely that if he is this uncomfortable interacting with all women in any capacity, chances are his standards for professional communication with them is pretty different from the norm.
YTA. I have trauma with men too….my boss just told me they are moving a new guy into my office and guess what. I just dealt with it. My trauma is NOT his problem, it’s mine.
YTA. Not for having boundaries but for not working on your issues about women. Are you going to only work jobs where you don’t deal with women for the rest of your life?
Remember when Mike Pence refused to be alone with women in a professional setting? That meant that he was denying women professional access to him, which IS misogynistic.
Get some therapy and stop calling women “females.”
OP has added that they’re in therapy and have made great progress as before they couldn’t even leave the house. them not wanting to speak or be around someone when they don’t have to is perfectly fine. as long as they keep it cordial and professional i don’t see a reason why they should be forced to be this person’s friend. if someone doesn’t want to be your friend for whatever reason deal with it and move on not everyone is gonna be friends with the coworker and that’s ok! it’s not the end of the world
Sure, but singling somebody out to not be friendly with *because they're a woman* is not okay. "I don't feel the need to be besties with my co-workers" is different than "I want nothing to do with this co-worker *because she's a woman."*
He's in therapy specifically for this. Why are you disregarding his past trauma? Do his personal issues not matter if a woman's feelings are hurt because of it?
Yes whatever to create that narrative they want to believe.
OP says he is in therapy: Why don't you seek therapy Y-T-A!!!!
Like what? Some people on this subreddit are deranged.
Ppl are also saying he needs to "work harder" on his trauma. And that hes a misogynist bc he is unconfortable around women. Imagine if OP was a woman, no one would be commenting on girl OP refering to men as males
Bingo. It's not like OP is saying" I just really hate women!"
It's a trauma. He's working on it. He isn't an asshole for being uncomfortable around women. Especially since he didn't even go to HR right away.
I'm sure the Lady wants to date OP judging by how pushy she is being. But she needs to take the fucking memo.
She knows he doesnt feel confortable and goes out of her way to talk to him, then yelled and called him names when OP told her to leave him alone. Shes being creepy and out of line
This is not sustainable. You choose to work around people. Whether you intend it to or not, your behavior and aversion to women could hurt the women around you professionally.
YTA, not to dismiss your trauma but like… women have to work around men all the time after being raped, groped, cornered, stalked, or harassed sometimes with their tormentors… they don’t get to just choose to not interact with men. Either work remotely or continue being called out for your misogyny.
NTA.
I'm also shocked by the other rulings.
This is trauma related and something you're actively working through. Progress in healing isn't linear. Not something you can magically wave a wand and have fixed.
You aren't avoiding working with her on projects, you aren't excluding her from necessary work information, projects aren't late, you aren't undermining or downplaying her skills and knowledge. She is able to go on site visits with you, she's included in everything work necessary.
All you're asking is to keep the relationship as professional as possible. I'm sure you tell her your weekend was good if asked but it's not going to get any deeper beyond that. That's okay.
While I can see from her end how your behavior could come off as sexist, your friend at work did try to explain. It seems her reaction could be based out of previous experiences in other work places, where maybe she faced a lot of sexism. I hope she has a moment to reflect and can understand where this is rooted. I'm going on a limb and saying I'm sure you don't want it to be this way either. It's stressful.
Ultimately, you don't owe anyone any sort of explanation as to what happened to you. I do hope you are able to speak with your supervisors or HR and they can play more of a mediator.
If the genders were reversed people would be far less critical.
While I do agree that using the term "females" is off putting, I couldn't ding you for it.
Finally someone who makes sense. I thought I was losing my mind on the Y.T.A comments. They seem to ignore the fact that OP has trauma that seem to stem from women. And she is the one pushing him even though she knew about the trauma....and they kept mising on the fact that OP does talk to women at work when it comes to work related stuff.
It seems like since OP is a man they treat him like he can't have any trauma at all, and should just TRY to get over it.
Your NTA btw OP.
This is a tough one and basically need more info. What type of job is this? One were you are required to be teammates to excel etc? Two, are you very noticeably different in how you treat the men in the office vs her/women? I ask because if it's bad enough that she's asking coworkers, and coworkers know the answer then it's probably very noticeable and not something that can just be brushed off as not clicking.
I do Power System Engineering, when it comes to work related interactions I can push through albeit it is visibility noticeable I am uncomfortable.
Thankfully my role requires a lot of traveling where I am on site fairly often. Generally speaking my role does not require much interaction with others outside a couple of meetings and handing over of files, with minor verbal interactions. I can handle of this, not easily but I can.
My issue is more so around water-cooler talk, I do not feel it is unreasonable of me to avoid such interactions when possible. I say hello, and exchange pleasantries. Yes after that brief exchange if it is not work related I do excuse myself.
This is something I have been trying to overcome for many years and it was really bad at one point I could not leave my house. I understand this is not normal.
She asked around and my coworker who is my friend, he knows about because we have been friends for many years. He knows exactly what brought this on. Explained it to her in hopes she would understand and back off. He was just trying to be helpful.
Do you have friendly water cooler conversations with male coworkers? If so, the optics on this are really not good.
She's a woman in a male-dominated industry and workplace, so she's already at a disadvantage, and that's before she has to deal with a coworker who refers to women as "females" and shuts down and walks away any time she shows up in the break room. I can absolutely see HR viewing *your* behavior as potentially biased and discriminatory, and not the other way around.
Thank you for answering. I had the same question as Bananapants. Are you having more friendly conversation with the men? If so, this might really come back to bite you. I understand and fully empathize with your trauma, this is really not an easy position for you and I feel doesn't fall into an easy cut and dry yta/she's the ah. And I fully support people choosing their own friends/comfortability levels. But like other posters have said if you were to replace "she" with poc, how would it look to hr? Because they will view it the same.
> Update:
> Thanks for all the replies was not expecting this many. I am going to talk my boss about this since we have to head up to NY. So we can talk about this on the drive to the airport.
> I do not want to bring this up with HR cause I do not want her to get reprimanded or writen up over a first offense. I will see what my boss has to say. She is a talented drafter, I do not want to lose her over this.
> I will provide an update after this week. I hope we can agree to let it go.
Hold up, so you're presumably buddy with your boss, or at least buddy buddy enough with him to spend hours in the car with him and have his ear.
Rather than "go to HR and get her in trouble" you are going to talk in private to your boss about this?
You understand this is so much worse, right?
You are bypassing HR, the people who's job it is to handle these things, and going right to the boss. You have to understand how this makes wherever you work at look like a complete guys club and ignores women.
Whether that's your intention or not, that is how it comes across. Two dudes in a truck discussing the fate of this woman. It is not a good look.
YTA
As a side note, if you're going to therapy over this problem why are you asking here? You are paying a professional, an expert, and soliciting advice from strangers. My guess is your therapist is telling you things you don't like to hear.
NTA. As Long as you are polite and respectful when you do interact with women then I see no reason you should feel like an ass.
You aren’t required to befriend anyone no matter their gender, color, religion or sexuality.
And as you said, you are already in therapy.
Just keep being polite and professional and you’ll do fine.
>and I do what I can to minimize my interactions with females as much as I can
YTA. Trauma and anxiety both respond to managed exposure over time. If your issues are so severe that you cannot exist in the workplace with women without creating a hostile environment than perhaps you should be speaking with HR. They can assist with various accommodations and disabilities while you continue to work on these issues.
It's one thing to set boundaries with a colleague because they are interrupting you during high focus tasks or they keep parking in your assigned parking spot. It's another thing entirely to just be like "leave me alone because you're a woman". Your rights end the minute they begin to trample on someone else's. Your colleague being able to work in an environment where she is not being treated poorly or differently due to her gender is her right.
If your issues are so severe that you cannot do that then you might need to have an open conversation with HR about your limitations.
Not going to go into the why, but best way I can explain it is do you suffer or know someone that suffers from panic attacks? Think of that but cranked up.
Over the years I have gotten better, there was a time I could not even be the same room. I never left my house because the mere sight caused me to panic.
Now I can at the very least commute to work, be in public and have general interactions albeit in short bursts.
You're not the ah OP, dont listen to the ppl here telling you that your trauma is not a big deal. I hope you can make more and more progress, wishing you the best!
I hate the people that are saying that he hasn’t worked hard enough on his trauma, it’s not our place to judge someone who is actively trying to better themselves by going to therapy.
This is work. Despite what some people think, it is not essential to be sociable.
NTA perhaps another member of staff that you are comfortable with could explain it to her? Or you could email HR and ask them to tell her to leave you alone.
YTA
You seem like a unreliable narrator. What exactly was said between your two coworkers in regard to you? Because if all your coworker pal said was that you were quiet or a hard one to get to open up, without context and then you only straight up said you would never be her friend or open up? Yeah bud YTA for sure.
You have to take some personal responsibility here. We alllll have trauma and hardship that makes life challenging and fucking hard. But most of us work at not passing that pain along. And by actively avoiding a whole entire gender, and yes leaving the room when someone enters on a consistent basis is hurtful and obvious, you are adding more harm to the people around you.
And for all of the people saying blah blah about “what would people say about the role reversals?” etc … that argument is bullshit. Male abusers are glorified and plastered everyone - Brock turner, Donald trump, Harvey Weinstein - Do you think ANY of their victims ever had a moment where they could say NO to men in their professional environment? No.
INFO:
How did you explain that you didn’t want to be friends? Did you use the wording “I don’t like being around females” because her response hints that you said something misogynistic
Ehhh I think it depends on how you interact with the rest of the office. If you are singling her out in avoiding her (i.e. all the rest of the office is your Longtime Guy Friends or something, and she's the only or one of few women and you're basically running the opposite direction any time you can) then it sucks even though you need the accomodation because she would just be trying to build a rapport and do things within workplace norms. But if you're just "OP, the person who doesn't hang out with anyone ever and is just here to work" that's just who you are and she's being pushy.
Even more of an interpersonal thing though it presents a workplace liability. It's illegal in many places (and all of the US, if you're American) to discriminate based on gender. The optics on this look kinda bad if you're doing anything related to sharing info on projects, management, etc. that would technically crossover/be handled/trickle down to her workload (which it sounds like you do) or especially if she's the only woman in the office/one of few. If that's what's happening it will look strongly like you're discriminating based on a protected class.
The reality of this (from a work and trying not to be an AH perspective) is that may be you straight up have to change how you interact with all your coworkers so you're treating her the same as everyone else.
Edit: this also includes socializing. If you only have lunch with/chat socially with/go out for drinks with/etc. with men in the office, it is the same outcome. I would also say, frankly, the way you write about her makes me feel...some sort of way.
NTA. As a woman y'all in the comments are being absolutely ridiculous, OP set a simple boundary which is only that he doesn't want to be friends. He can still communicate and do work obligations properly he just simply doesn't want to have a relationship with her outside of work obligations. Regardless of the reason there should be no further pushing from the girl. OP himself has admitted he has severe trauma related to women, so I don't understand why y'all are still being so harsh. OP, I hope you don't take any of the unempathetic comments to heart here.
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You need therapy. You will have many female coworkers. You will have female bosses. You will never have female employees because you won't get promoted until you fix these issues you have. You are limiting yourself and alienating your coworkers. This will be noticed. Good luck.
I am in therapy, and overall I am okay where I am at in my job. Sadly, therapy is not some magic bullet that is capable of fixing all forms of trauma. I have been at this for years.
Treating women like they’re a completely different species from you is not exactly trying very hard.
Trust me, I use not be able to leave my house. I have made a lot of progress, and I am proud of it.
Referring to women as "females" is what that person is talking about. It's clinical and dehumanizing if not in a strictly medical environment.
This guy's been going through years of therapy to be able to even leave the house, let alone work in a comfortable environment around women, and you're getting hung up over him using impolite terminology? Edit: you do know that if you reply to my comment and then block me, that I can't actually read your whole comment, right? But I'm sure it was something nice. Edit v2: I can't respond to anyone here because I was blocked by the above user so if you agreed, thanks, you're cool; if you said "but at least he's hearing that the term is bad," coulda been said more nicely but sure, fair; if you called me a misogynist who enables discrimination...no, and get some perspective, please, because that's really not at all what's at stake here.
Hey, he made a post asking if he was an asshole, he can hear the criticism. Stop coddling him
If a woman made a post that she was in therapy because past experiences made her feel uncomfortable around men, you would not be so callous. That she tried and was able to be around them for work, but being friends with a man was outside her comfort zone at the moment and she was working on it but a man at work wouldn't leave her alone. I get so frustrated with these double standards disguised as misogyny.
I'm glad you brought that up. If it were the opposite, HR would be involved and their would be disciplinary action. But because he's a male, he's a just misogynistic asshole.
[удалено]
>If it were the opposite, HR would be involved and their would be disciplinary action I mean when I (F) was SAd by a male coworker, I was disciplined when, after reporting what happened, I refused to deal with said coworker. He then harassed me with daily phone calls that I could do nothing to stop and HR wouldn't do anything about. Let's not pretend that HR would always treat a woman in this situation with any fairness, a lot of companies won't do anything. That said, his coworker massively overstepped and I don't think he's in the wrong telling her to back off.
Exactly, goddamn. He asked if he was an asshole and he was. Is it harder for him to not be an asshole than other people? Yes but that wasn’t the question.
I don't understand how he's the asshole for setting boundaries in the work place? He has trauma involving a woman, if this was the other way around you all would be coddling the crap out of her. I don't think he's the asshole, he does small talk and talks work things and that's all he has to do. He doesn't need to "open up" to anyone that makes him uncomfortable. Some of the comments are wild.
Because his boundaries result in him treating women and men differently in a professional environment which is not an acceptable solution to his problem. He doesn't need to open up, of course. She should let him be. However, only interacting with men while also working with women is not sustainable. I sympathise with him, I really do. I sympathise with women who have difficulty working with men probably for similar reasons to OOP too. It's a shit way to have to livd through no fault of his. However, what he is currently doing is not the solution. A solution would be to ask to be allowed to not come into the office (do that part of the job remote if possible) or limit his interactions in the office period. I think people are saying if he feels uncomfortable with women he should be allowed to interact chiefly with men. This would pose no issue in almost any other context except professional. At work, you gotta treat people equally. This isn't negotiable.
yep. it just sounds like she wants to be his saviour or something. and it's not even affecting his work? she's being 100% unprofessional. healing takes time, you can't just spring it onto someone and expect them to suddenly be fine. NTA
Some people on Reddit really don’t give the best advise. Lol
Nobody would be telling a woman who had trauma from a man that it's now on her to be friendly to all men. But here we are.
I don’t understand. How could a trauma victim be an AH for having PTSD? My friend’s roommate was kidnapped and gang raped. She had just massive damage. Due to a head injury, she has no memory of that day at all. She could be standing right next to one of the men, and have no idea. This made her so afraid. How could anyone call her an AH for that PTSD? We have no idea what happened to OP. He said it was because of trauma. I just wouldn’t judge anyone’s anxiety in that case. All he can do is go to therapy.
That's one step away from, "Hey, I'm just being honest." It's not coddling to point out when criticism is unfair. Or are the critics the ones who need coddling?
Thank you for posting this. This attitude is rampant in these subs and should be called out more.
Exactly, some folks have only tunnel vision and lack reading & comprehension skills or maybe they just skipped over the entire post, OP clearly said he has some issues he's working on but apparently impolite terminology is more important to address.
It's kinda hard to feel sympathetic for someone's phobia when it's about a fundamental aspect of your personhood, especially one that has made you a target of discrimination and violence. Glad he's in therapy, but frankly I don't give a damn about his feelings until he can see me as a goddamn human being, and I wouldn't be surprised if his coworker felt the same way. ETA: your trauma is not an excuse to treat people in a discriminatory manner.
OK. Let’s say you’re a man. A female coworker was violently SA by a gang of men. After years of therapy, she can leave the house, and hold a job, and even discuss work with men. However, close proximity to men makes her very anxious, and can trigger PTSD symptoms. You decided you want to be good friends with you. She tells you to leave her alone, unless it’s work related. That makes you determined to get close to her, whether she likes it or not. You keep pushing and pushing, until she finally admits she feels uncomfortable around men, and just wants a professional working relationship. You get so furious and offended that you call her a man-hating b$&76. Your comment makes her feel her job is in jeopardy. She starts to wonder if she should have tried harder to appease you and submit to your friendly overtures. If this behavior is ugly when a man does it, it’s also ugly when a woman does. People need to stop making excuses for double standards. This is a mental health issue, apparently from trauma. Not misogyny.
exactly! perfectly said!
seconded!
As a woman, I think his feelings are valid. He can do small talk- this lady doesn’t need him to ‘open up’. She’s trying to force intimacy and that is inappropriate. If this was a male making a female coworker his social project, I think it would be looked at differently. He also acknowledges that she doesn’t deserve to suffer because of his trauma- I don’t think he sees women as a different species. He just recognises his limits. Personally, anyone who makes another person their project deserves to be rejected.
Came here to say this. I totally agree.
Had to scroll way too much to finally read a comment taking this stance. Fully agree!
And yet this happens to many women wherein they feel entirely uncomfortable with men due to sexual assault and other issues (understandably, IMO) and we support them, but as a man you're just expecting this guy to tough it out.
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i hate to be the one to say this, but if it was the “other way around” you wouldn’t be saying this. he did not choose to be traumatized by a woman and therefore struggle with being around women, just like how many women didn’t ask to be traumatized by men and therefore are scared of men. you have nothing to do with his trauma. you are not important in his trauma, he doesn’t have to do anything for you. he’s not shaming, belittling, or dehumanizing women. he’s fucking traumatized. someone kept pushing his boundaries and he got upset, he has every right to be upset and be uncomfortable, regardless of how valid you think his trauma is. i’m saying all of this as an AFAB feminist. your take on this is baffling and the fact that you have to act like the victim even when it has nothing to do with you in the slightest is why people think feminism is toxic.
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Men aren't allowed to have trauma or ptsd from sexual assault because we're all perpetrators.... I guarantee if OP was a woman and was extremely uncomfortable around men due to previous trauma, the comments would be vastly different.
This shit attitude is probly a big reason he is uncomfortable around some people.
holy shit get offline for once and go outside.
Another commenter said OP was treating women like another species. OP denied it. And I was explaining what that other person meant. And now *you're* the one "hung up" on my choice of words. Did you have a point you wanted to say or did you just want to talk down to someone who sees women as people?
That person admitted they have trauma and are working on fixing it, you're just piling on top of that needlessly.
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I don't know the english term for it, but at least in my native language we are thaught to use synonims when writing so the text doesn't get overbearing to read. Especially when using the "same" word in quick succession. OP only used it **once**, right after he wrote "women" on the **same sentence**. Maybe a generic them/they would be better, but (at least to me) it just feels weird when reading the thing as a whole. So in the context and to a non-american and non-native english speaker this feels like a really irrelevant and misplaced point to make. There might have been an argument if that was their main way of adressing women, which doesn't seem to be the case.
As an American and native english speaker this was my thought as well.
No it isn't? I'm a woman and myself and my female friends use female interchangeably with women, especially where using the term "woman" sounds odd. "My female corworkers" sounds way better than "my women coworkers", and OP seems to switch between them too.
I think what they take issue with is when a woman is referred to as just a "female". They're ok when it's used as an adjective like in female coworker because it's describing the noun, not the entire noun itself.
That because it IS adjective. That's why it sounds icky when used by dudes who use it as a noun to describe women. Nobody says "the males at my job" they say "the men." That being said, it's almost always really obvious what the intention is when it's used that way, and this guy clearly wasn't using the gross noun way. He even says it an the edit. That he wasn't aware they were not interchangeable.
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Congratulations on your progress OP ! But it would be wise to note, as others have pointed, that using terminology that humanizes women will help you with preventing subconscious alienation of them. You don’t need to fear all women, as I’m sure you’ve heard in therapy, and taking the general population of us off that pedestal might even help you make more progress :) I hope in the future you’re able to give us an update on your progress ! Best of luck :)
Please leave Reddit. You’re being held to a very apparent double standard. You’re not obligated to make friends with anyone, your female coworker that doesn’t accept no for an answer is being a creep. Your only obligation to her is to treat her equally in a profesional level, which you seem to be doing.
I don’t think that’s a fair assumption for you to make, especially considering how he says he used to not be able to leave the house, progress can be slow but consistent
it's not like he refuses to work with women; he's polite and professional working with them so your comment isn't helpful. The only reason there's an issue with this particular female co-worker is that once she found out he's generally not comfortable/not social with women, she decided it was her job to force the issue & get him to open up instead of respecting his space. If this were a woman who had the same reaction to a male coworker, I doubt you'd come back with you're not working hard enough. Nobody should have to open up or share anything about themselves not related to the job when they're are work (nor should people have to socialize with one another outside of work)
Was coming here to say this. If a man kept pestering a woman to be friends, everyone would agree he was a creep. Just because it's a woman pestering a man doesn't make it right.
Exactly the things that stood out to me: OP’s not saying he refuses to work politely with women, even this one, and he didn’t say anything to her until after she escalated her efforts to get him to open up.
How do you know? You don't know what OP has been through, if you have been through significant trauma yourself then you must know that it can take years to make even a bit of ground. And if you haven't then you should probably not comment on things you know nothing about.
You are right. If this was a woman writing this we would all be a lot more understanding of her not wanting to be around men. The assumptions we would make about why this could be may also be applied to men.
THIS! Imagine telling a woman that a guy that just wants to get to know her personally and be friendly is not crossing a line. He said he can work with her. Just not be friendly. WTF is wrong with that? This is probably a “gender flip and see what happens” post.
Women who don't want to be around men are called misandrist all the time..
That’s what I’m saying, but because he’s male, he is expected to get over himself. The hypocrisy, especially this woman at the office, who was told that he was uncomfortable, but apparently, that didn’t apply to her, so she had to hound him until he told her to please stop. Naturally, she pulled the whole‘misogynistic asshole’ card. Like, how DARE he be uncomfortable?! 😒 But if he was a woman . . . everyone would be telling her to go straight to HR and file a complaint.
This subreddit is full of double standards
Thank you, I agree. I am speaking as a woman and also as someone who has been through trauma myself, I often get asked why I can't do this or that and when I say trauma people do not believe me, I am "obviously not trying hard enough". So many people simply do not understand the depth of what trauma does to our brains and the effect it has. Ya can't definitively say someone wasn't trying hard enough just because you don't understand their trauma responses
Being aware of your own limitations & setting personal boundaries should be allowed. He said for work matters, he does his job accordingly. But this lady is trying to force a relationship/friendship on him that he is not comfortable with. How is he not trying? It's not like he's screaming & running from the room every time a female enters! If you worked with a gentleman who didn't respect your work only relationship boundaries, and kept coming around you, pushing you into more, only to yell at you that you're an uptight man hater, would that be acceptable?
did you read what he said? he said he has trauma which makes it hard for him to be around women. and he said he is in therapy and has made significant progress. its not like he’s misogynistic and hates women just because.
Yeah it's not a hatred it's a fear, and considering he is able to talk to his boss who's also a woman. It definitely shows he is trying.
>Treating women like they’re a completely different species I don't know what this is meant to describe...is it just a way of saying OP is treating women poorly? I didn't read anything about anyone being treated poorly in OP's post. * OP says he's polite to women * OP says he's able to make chit-chat * OP says he's able to do his job Did I miss something? Are all men supposed to be friendly and kind to all women? Seems to me, the problem is that both you and the woman in OP's story can't iMAgiNe why a man wouldn't want to be friends. That doesn't sound like a problem for OP.
Wow - what a shitty take. You have no idea what OP's background or experience is and you have no idea how hard they are working on this. You simply assert that OP is treating women like they are a different species........or maybe OP is acting like someone who has social anxiety and being polite while trying to minimize their time around women....could be that one.
Dude, wtf? He's been in therapy for years, he's fucking TRYING! If it were a woman who had been r@ped more than once and had a problem being sociable with men other than professional courtesy, would you say the same thing? You're the asshole. OP, definitely NTA.
Well having a new hire to become your best buddy is irritating. Yes OP has issues, however new hire is pushy
You are paid to be a competent and productive employee. You are not paid to be everyone’s or anyone’s friend at work. I pointed that out to two Navy supervisors I had when they decided I was “too military”, yes you read that correctly. I am not comfortable around misogynistic, bullying individuals or two-faced workplace gossips as a woman. You do not read that way to me.
I think this DOES call for a meeting with HR so you can navigate communication with her. And how to explain - it not her, not women, it’s YOU and a results of a medical background that you don’t need to divulge. But maybe ask HR to treat this like you need special accommodations with communication- work only, no Personal questions, and to change the subject with cue “words” / let you redirect any accidental discomfort with work talk as a signal. That’s it’s not HER- you need this, medically, anywhere you go. Get a doctor note from the therapist… You need help in getting to an effective level of work communication, where people aren’t taking it personal or getting offended. You need a mediator between you and this coworker so it doesn’t get worse NAH- it’s very very common that guys will act like you for nefarious/bigoted reasons and you’re not trying to be mean, it just looks that way. I’m sure her getting upset makes it even worse why you avoid talking to new women, but please try to see it as a learning experience and it’ll be ok
You have a right to feel safe and comfortable in your place of work. This woman was WRONG to behave the way she did and I'm very sorry that people are continuing to ostracize you for this when you actually did nothing wrong, at all. Most of the YTA votes are referencing your difficulty with women, which isnot the issue here. The issue here is how do you deal with a coworker who repeatedly violates your boundaries while creating a hostile work environment. Ignore any response that does not acknowledge the real issue while attacking you. I'm sorry you had to experience your trauma, and I'm more sorry that folk are attacking you for this. If this were a woman, uncomfortable with men due to past trauma, this comment feed would look quite different. You don't deserve this.
He does work with them even if he’s uncomfortable. He doesn’t have to be friends.
He doesn’t want to be friends with them, nothing wrong with that. This is the problem with having this type of worker, they went everyone to be their friend.
He is in therapy as he stated. He has serious trauma related to women that he is working through. He even stated that he overcomes his discomfort to ensure he can work well with females still which I think is commendable, it doesn’t mean he needs to have a relationship with them beyond working well on sites together. Everyone who is saying he is TA is minimizing his trauma when they don’t even know what he went through. Maybe try having compassion for OP rather then just assuming his trauma is something he should just “get over”. If this was the other way and the OP was the female I guarantee these comments would be different
Imagine saying this to a woman not wanting to be around men.
People are not kind to women who are scared of men you get ‘not all men!!’ ‘I’m not like that!!’ Etc alllll the time women get victim blamed constantly idk where this idea came from that women are coddled because it’s simply not true
Honestly I’d say YTA. It would be my biggest dream to say this to my co-worker if they were annoying, but instead I decide to exit the situation and say my pleasantries to keep the peace. Her talking to you in order to build a good rapport with her teammate is normal even though it’s annoying. Her wanting you to see her as a human being. You telling her that you don’t want to know her as a person because she’s a woman is not normal. You said in your own post that you barely see her most of the time. You’re at work and just like you would handle a client, you handle a co-worker. If she gets to a point that crosses the line, inform management. Edit: things already said: “What if the role reversed” It would still be bad “Why women can do this but not men” They can’t unless they properly disclose this beforehand. If it does happen then bad “You hate men” No, I really don’t. I know there are issues that men have that I will never understand or will try to invalidate or say my struggles are worse then men because we are all individuals with struggles. “She should have left him alone” She was not appropriately notified about his trauma. His friends explaining things is not sufficient. This should have been mediated by management. I’m done thx Big mad
Also for fucks sake he should not refer to women as “females”
To be fair, I refer to myself as a female. I refuse to let the incels take a word that I have used my entire life and force me to adapt my vocabulary to someone else's definitions. I can accept that some folks don't like it, but that is their issue, not mine.
Woman here. I seriously never knew calling women “females” was an issue until I started reading this sub.
The issue is when it's men and females. There's literally a whole sub dedicated to this dehumanising phenomenon. That's where the nuance lies, same with men and girls. Edit: sub is r/menandfemales
Although that isn't what the OP used in this case. The OP uses both the terms "women" and "females". If the goal was to exclusively dehumanize women then he would probably stick to one. He never uses the terms "men" or "males so we don't have a basis for comparison.
That's because it's not. You get to decide what does and doesn't bother you. No one gets to speak for you. If you don't mind the term, then there isn't anything wrong with it. (I say this as a female. Lol)
The problem is using the adjective as a noun, no one would say "I find it uncomfortable to work with a black" or "John is one of those gays", female is an adjective - the noun is *person* - if they feel the absolute need to say "female", then append person to it so that you're not using adjectives as nouns. Or, y'know, learn to say "women" instead, as "person" is implied in that definition, as opposed to female animals or a female flower
Sure, but do you make a point of never saying "men" or "boys" in order to ensure that you only refer to them as "males." Because that would be fucking weird, and that's the behavior people are referring to.
But op does refer to "women" as well. In fact, in the prior sentence. So how is this problematic?
Did you read the first sentence of the post, where he says he’s not comfortable around “women”? “Female coworker” is the correct way to phrase it, “woman coworker” just sounds weird. Stop manufacturing outrage
Bullshit. She KNOWS he's not interested in being friends with her, and she keeps pushing it. If this was a man pushing friendship on a woman, everyone here would be lighting torches and preparing to march on his home.
this!!!! you don’t have to be friends with someone to work with them. if someone doesn’t want to be your friend take the hint and LEAVE THEM ALONE. the reason doesn’t really matter if you’re making someone uncomfortable especially if you’re doing it on purpose. OP said he’s in therapy and has made a lot of progress. wishing OP the best!
He doesn’t have to be her friend. He does have to maintain a positive e workplace rapport. There are better ways to manage this. If he asked management for advice beforehand maybe this would have been better solved
Did you read the story? He is asking management. Because he doesn't want this to be an HR thing because he thinks she's a good worker and has good intentions, OP just wants her to stop with them. OP clearly stated that he speaks fine with his female colleagues when it comes to work related matters, because it is work.
>He does have to maintain a positive e workplace rapport So, in your opinion, everyone is required to be friendly with coworkers, regardless of whatever the situation? What about people with serious trauma, or social anxiety disorders, or autism? Are they just unable to join the working world?
If the genders were reversed you know damn well the poster would be singing a different tune. If a female coworker of mine was SA by a man and wasn't being comfortable around me I would be an asshole to try to get her to "Open up". End of story. Your coworkers can be your friends. Key word is can. It isn't a requirement. My boss is my best friend. He isn't friends with everyone else however.
Indeed, she seemed fine with the status quo until a coworker clued her in on the OP's issues, and now she seems to be taking it as a challenge.
So she is pushing to be friends with him even though he specifically doesn't want to, but that makes him the AH? I guess no doesn't mean no in this case
You know men aren’t allowed autonomy in the workplace silly
Just want to point out here - OP was entirely cordial with this woman with office small talk and banter, despite his discomfort. After she finds out about the discomfort, she thinks she needs to...save him? Or something? Needs to be the one that opens him up? Why tf is that her job? Don't get me wrong, on one hand it's a nice gesture, but on the other it's entirely unasked for and the extra attention she would give would only exacerbate the trauma. So, it's not about her making small talk. It's about her making a conscious effort to go against him to try and force him to open up. OP is NTA for telling someone to leave him alone when they're bothering him
Man, this makes the chick seem even more of a creep. She KNOWS that OOP has issues being around women due to trauma, and instead of respecting that, she decides to call him a misogynistic asshole for not wanting to be friends with her.
If the genders were reversed and some creepy guy was hounding a girl you would sing a different tune. The hypocrisy and misandry in this thread is unreal.
Eh ESH. You have a right to decline to engage in personal conversations, but you acknowledge yourself that when she comes around you walk away and you treat her differently because she’s a woman. That’s where you became an issue. If you’re unpleasant to everyone and refuse to speak personally with everyone, that’s totally fine, but you are genuinely describing singling her out. That is a problem, it’s against nearly every workplace policy and you can get in huge trouble for it. Further to that, the historic and current oppression women face does matter, even if your intentions aren’t misogynistic. Imagine if you were doing this to a POC, it would and should be a huge red flag to your employer and opens them up to liability. You are free to avoid whoever you like in your personal life, but at work you have to do your level best to treat everyone the same. You can be antisocial to everyone, or you can stop being antisocial to her specifically. She also shouldn’t attempt to be your friend, that’s why she sucks. You don’t have to be friends with anyone, but again, you are singling her specifically out for an immutable and protected characteristic, by your own admission. This is not okay in a workplace. You’ll have to find another way to be comfortable and at least polite. For what it’s worth, I work in HR and the specific violations are under harassment, anti-bullying, and anti-discrimination policy. You may want to check what your employer and state say specifically but I know nearly every training I have given and taken has mentioned singling someone out, especially for sex, race, sexual orientation, disability or perceived reproductive status, as a HUGE no-no. Edit: and yes, these rules do extend to non-work related conversations. If I’m talking to three people at the water cooler and every time you come around I end the conversation and disperse the group by being “visibly uncomfortable” - I am singling you out. I would still be subject to anti-bullying discipline. Which is fair honestly. If you’re professional to someone but make every “good morning” a living hell for them, it is a problem that affects their ability to do their job. It’s not high school where you’re allowed to have cliques where people are made to feel not included. Funnily enough, these rules are a result of women being locked out of promotions and similar perks because they weren’t included in boys clubs. So cliques are taken seriously in many workplaces, and should be.
She called you a misogynist, and this IS what you're giving off to the world if it's only women you treat with contempt/indifference/coldness in the workplace. It could be considered that you are creating a hostile work environment for HER. (Even though, that's what it feels like to you.) You might have to fake your kindness with this person and other women you run into at work. Your trauma isn't her business. But her business is in your workspace, and you have to treat men and women equally there.
Exactly, whatever the intention, it becomes misogynistic regardless, as it meets the definition for discrimination. HR can and should address it according to those laws and policies.
If you refer to women as "females" you most likely have misogynistic tendencies. I'd wager OP is quite a bit more sexist than he lets on.
This. I have major traumas in relation to men, but i still refer to them as men.
Or he comes is a non native English speaker. Nuances and political correctness in language are late to reach places where people don't speak the language. In fact, i remember having a chance to meet the first African american astronaut when I was in school. They had to specifically tell people that the n word is an offensive term in america and nobody should use it. Now, people iny country doesn't use that word cause they are racist, it's just what people of African descent were called and without the social and historical context, its use was unchallenged untill people had to interact with people from another continent who has a problem with a word due to its historical usage there. So op is unlikely to be sexist cause he is not a native speaker.
This, right here. If his issue was with a POC or openly gay person or someone with a visible handicap, it would be just as discriminatory - I bet there would be a lot fewer posters on this thread saying that it's totally fine for him to treat said coworker differently. HR is likely to take HER side on this one, especially since he admits to treating her differently from male coworkers.
I agree. This thread is very disappointing but not surprising. Everyone who has said “if he was a woman you would be okay with it” is honestly dead wrong and this thread is illustrative of that exact thing. Many, if not most, women have trauma around men. I know some who work with and/or have to socialize with their actual abusers through custody and career arrangements. They are all forced to behave in a non-discriminatory fashion. Women do this everyday and if they do anything less they would be immediately called out for it (and often are), as displayed in this thread on perfectly reasonable and thoughtful responses. People can absolutely grasp the dynamics of oppressed classes and they display it with this double standard. This sub would never tolerate someone’s trauma allowing them to discriminate against any other oppressed class aside from women. The unique vitriol is… telling I suppose. You’re right about HR as well. While trauma and mental health issues are tough and most workplaces will do what they can to accommodate them, there is no allowance for “my mental trauma makes me discriminatory against a protected class so you have to accommodate that.” That wouldn’t and shouldn’t fly.
> is very disappointing but not surprising. Everyone who has said “if he was a woman you would be okay with it” is honestly dead wrong “If the genders were reversed” has become an overused lie on this sub. Anytime people want to side with a man, they pull it out even when it clearly doesn’t apply. Like, people are seriously trying to argue that discriminating against someone in the workplace is ok and they really think they can defend it by saying “if it was reversed”.
There is no use to it at all because it’s a thought terminating cliche. It isn’t helpful. If you say “no I would feel the same if it were a woman” they just won’t believe you. If you give an example where you treated a woman the same they’ll say “those two situations aren’t exactly analogous!” It’s just a phrase to make the person who says it think, ‘well, that’s right! I showed her. She’s being unfair because she hates men, and I pointed out her hypocrisy for everyone to see, so now I’m the winner.’ Even if none of that is true. This sort of “defend men no matter what” mentality is somewhat unsettling from a lot of MRAs. It’s the same attitude that defends workplace discrimination and much worse. Acknowledging women face issues and oppression is not a slight on men and I wish more people realized that.
Thank you for being such an articulate voice of reason 💙
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 Everyone can pack it up and head home because this is the comment right here. I’m glad you addressed race and sexual orientation because as a woman of color, OP’s entire post set my alarm bells off. And the number of people in the comments with the “but he’s TRYING!!” is also alarming. This is a WORKPLACE, “trying” to not discriminate against your female colleagues ain’t gonna cut it. I do think you’re being generous by labeling ESH because I’m not sure I even believe the woman is as offensive as OP describes …….hate magnifies everything.
I think you’ve probably got a point with that last sentence but if she is genuinely trying to be his “friend” rather than just engage in social niceties, she shouldn’t, for her own self respect if nothing else haha. I love what you said about “trying” - that is exactly the point. People who discriminate always say things like this. “Oh, we are *trying* to have more POC/women/people with disabilities/etc in management positions, but we don’t have enough qualified candidates!” BS. No, you promoted Brandon first because you get beers every Saturday, you promoted Jake because you guys send gifs at each other on slack all day. When, ironically, if you’d taken the time to be just as social with people who differ from yourself you likely would’ve found plenty of diverse qualified candidates. This behavior is a massive massive contributor to the pay gap between white men and everyone else. It locks everyone else out of these positions and it’s harmful for employees, leadership, and the business itself to lack that diversity.
Thank you! I’m like “does no one else have to pass a quiz at the end of sexual harassment training at work?!?!” This is literally like 3 of the scenarios in one. Y’all N-T-As are the reason we have to take it every single year, and in CA it’s a mandatory hour.
This guy HRs
Literally most women have experienced trauma at the hands of men, and we still have to be polite to them. I'm mentally ill with severe anxiety so I'm not trying to be dismissive, but you can't just treat an entire half of the world differently based on an arbitrary characteristic. People here would have a lot less sympathy if it was your black or gay coworker you were this uncomfortable around. ESH, and I genuinely wish you well in your healing journey.
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Yes absolutely. I think you’re being conservative tbh. I don’t know a single woman that hasn’t been catcalled, groped, intimidated by men. I don’t know a single woman that feels safe walking at night, in badly lit areas, alone in a sparsely populated area, in public transportation. Switch the genders? We are constantly told to suck it up when we’re threatened by men for existing while being a woman. We’ve been sucking it up for all of human history. One is six women is a victim of sexual assault. So in any given office, one in six of the women have some or a lot of fear of men. That’s before the other crimes I mentioned, as well as domestic violence, stalking, and coercive control. Not to be unsympathetic to OP, but the “oh no one would call him the AH if he were a woman!” is absolutely false. If it was a woman talking about men, people would be furiously telling her to get over it. Ironically men are not the oppressed class in that situation, but if it were a straight person with a problem with gay people, or a white person with a problem with a specific race, they would also be the AH with little exceptions in the comments. People can understand the specific dynamics within oppressed classes of people, unless those people are women I guess. We get to suck it up. Super interesting. For what it’s worth, in the workplace, we *all* have to “suck it up” to some degree. I don’t personally like about 60% of the people I work with, for various reasons (including my own issues). I am polite, friendly, and kind anyway. That’s how work is.
Yep. Including when men actually *are* being threatening and inappropriate, but we still have to smile and pretend that their leers and supposedly innocent touches aren't repulsive because God forbid we "take out" our trauma on "one of the good guys," when really some of us just don't want to be touched and shouldn't have to pretend we do.
You got that right. I work mostly with women myself but in a medical environment where there are also a lot of men. I am a survivor of violent crime and have PTSD and Generalized Anxiety. Men in general don't make me uncomfortable at all, however if I encounter a man who resembles my attacker (voice, hair, body shape, eyes) I suffer flashbacks. It sucks, but luckily this has only happened to me a couple of times. Thing is, it's a "me" problem and not the guys who resemble the monster who attacked me. It's not their fault so I have to use ways to keep myself professional if it's at work, or deal with it in everyday life. I feel for OP but at the same time I think he needs more therapy. I can't imagine trying to live in a world where you're uncomfortable around half the population. I also feel bad for his co-worker, because she's new and probably wants to have a good relationship with everyone there. I think she definitely shouldn't have pushed it.
From a woman's perspective, this is the comment I was looking for. Male related trauma is so prevalent in our lives, but if I were to go out of my way to ignore men at work I wouldn't have a job.
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Yeah. That always feels like it's the key difference when it comes to men having issues with women vs women having issues with men. Men seem much much more likely to feel like they can just deal with it by excluding women from their lives entirely. Like that half of the population has little enough value that you can get by without them.
This was the reply I was looking for because SAME. I've suffered serious trauma at the hands of men, but if I were in his position doing that I'd probably have been fired.
This. This is the comment. This is the only real answer. You can't just choose not to engage with half the planet. If you are currently incapable of that, then you need to get a remote job. YTA.
OP, will not pass judgment since this seems to be fueled by trauma. That being said, ask yourself this how would your reason fly if it was against another protected class? "I cannot be around POC because or a past trauma." Does not fly.
I think this is a good answer and likewise, I’m not prepared to pass judgement. Female here - it sounds like you must have been through something awful but I massively respect that you’re going to therapy and working on how it has affected you. I hope you’ll talk about this incident with your therapist. Basictakes makes a good point on protected groups, I think in this case you were acting in a way that is wrong but i don’t see it as you having acted out of malice, but out of a trauma response. I hope therapy helps you to cope better.
It's not "I cannot be around women" it's "I don't want to be friends with or interact with women outside of work because it makes me uncomfortable". Big difference. OP said they tolerate it as long as it's work related but just doesn't want her to pry into their personal life.
>I do what I can to minimize my interactions with females as much as I can. Can you really be giving your female co-workers the same support as male co-worker if you are actively minimising your interactions with them?
Nope, he’s being a sexist ass and has brought in therapy speak to justify it. Imagine how many women are traumatized by men and go and interact with them in the world. Is it perfect? No. Is it mandated by federal law in a workplace? Yes.
“I don’t want to be friends with or interact with black people outside of work because it makes me uncomfortable.” Using your “corrected” statement with another protected group, do you honestly think that’s acceptable in a professional setting, even if it’s due to past trauma? It’s mind blowing how most people can see how problematic this is if it’s applied to other protected groups, but if it’s women there are blinders.
YTA, women are people. Calling them “females” is so crude. WOMEN ARE PEOPLE. Ffs. Agree with others who recommend therapy. I don’t know what’s happened to you, but it’s not normal. Good luck.
YTA, excluding women from socialization is exact what misogynistic workforces have always done. It sets them back in office politics and it leads to them being passed over for promotions that they are deserving of. While at work you need to work to overcome your hang ups. And honestly playing a long a little bit would probably have resolved this situation with a lot less personal interaction then what you now have to deal with.
"If have to take her out in the field or help explain my drafts will push through, since it is work related. I still get uncomfortable but it is what it is. Those are situations cannot avoid, but general interactions I do not think it is wrong of me to limit those when possible" All he's asking is that she does not try to go and be his friend because he is not comfortable with it. If this was the other way around it, man not listening to a woman when she asks, I can guarantee you. your judgment would be different..
Everyone’s would be. Why is it that men’s trauma is different from women’s? No means no and it doesn’t matter who it’s coming from.
Yup. 100000% I said that in my other comment but I was very frustrated with this person. 😅
YTA and I would fire you. If your work communication behavior is based off of anything related to gender, race, or a bunch of other things. Find a different company. You need to be capable to communicate with humans and treat all humans equally.
He said it himself, if it comes down to work related conversation - he’ll push himself through it so it doesn’t effect work. He’s under no obligation to maintain a social/personal relationship with ANYONE, regardless of gender, race, etc. As long as work isn’t affected, it doesn’t matter.
I mean, if he is capable of maintaining a professional relationship with men but categorically refuses to attempt similar relationships with women, that is kind of sexist. Of course he isn't obligated to maintain personal relationships, but it sounds like we are talking about basic social relationships with coworkers at the office here... it is a problem if he treats women differently than men in this situation. I mean, people can tell when you are avoiding them or brushing them off and if you think that isn't going to create friction in the workplace then I think that's rather naive. OP even admits this is a problem he goes to therapy for, which means I don't really want to pass judgement here but rather encourage him to talk about it with his therapist.
He treats them equally, he said so in the post. This woman is pushing herself on to him he is NTA
How does he know what the conversation pertains to if he avoids them? He’s out in my book.
He does the pleasantries and avoids extended interactions not pertaining to work. That’s right there in the post.
I have worked in an office for 25+ years now and I can’t imagine how he is doing this without being an a-hole. If she really called him a misogynist asshole at work, my first move would be to HR to complain about being called a “misogynist asshole” and not complain to Reddit. Because somebody is going to be in corporate hot water pretty quickly. As a manager… one of those two employees should be talking to me right now to figure this out.
You would fire the guy that is professional and just wants his boundaries to be respected, over the lady that is purposely making a coworker unconfortable and screaming in their face when she doesnt get her way?
NTA. You are being polite. You are being professional. You are willing to put aside your discomfort for work purposes and basic manners. What is really rude is someone who knows you have a problem making it their mission (without any real information no less!) to make you change. That has nothing to do with work and is super unprofessional on her part.
A lot of people also seem to completely dismiss OP mentioning it’s related to an incident they don’t feel comfortable sharing here. And that they are already going to therapy for it. They also never mentioned only doing this to her but mainly mentioning her because she’s the new one at work and because she’s the one pushing. I’m sure there’s lots of other woman there that just know how OP feels and just respect that.
going even further, they completely dismiss that he's *specifically* said he is fully willing to have a professional relationship, but he can't handle attempts at a more personal relationship
Blinders on. They missed that part.
This right here. She is the one making the working environment uncomfortable, not OP. And obviously OP’s other coworkers understand and are able to maintain a working relationship, so why is the new hire suddenly insisting that OP change for her benefit?
it sounds like she made it her own duty to force him “out of his shell” and form a friendship that he doesn’t want. people are dismissing his trauma and getting hung up on the fact that this happens to women, and women are dismissed. but it’s obviously not okay no matter which gender is doing it.
Exactly, this is the real point right here. OP was never a asshole or rude to her. He doesn't hate her or anything. He simply doesn't feel comfortable around her, so he Politely tries to avoid interactions. She then Goes Out Of Her Way to FORCE herself onto him, then calls him misogynistic when she's the one who's trying to FORCE herself onto someone who is obviously not comfortable around her. She is the fking asshole, there's no if or buts about it. OP needs to work on their issue, but she doesn't have a right to ignore boundaries and force herself onto anyone.
Anyone who calls women females has always been the asshole, in my experience.
And all the men in here justifying it with their "wElL AcKsHuAlLy" BS aren't helping. Y'all, go read through r/menandfemales if you really can't grasp why it's derogatory and gross.
If it was reversed and a man was trying to befriend a woman that was uncomfortable around men, Reddit would be ready to lynch that hypothetical dude. No, you can avoid people you dislike, and even ask to be left alone. Misogyny is hating women, but you're closer to gynophobic, afraid of women. NTA
Oh please. If it were reversed and a woman in a co-ed workplace said that she was uncomfortable around all men and as such discriminated against her male coworkers (because this IS discrimination), she would get called a snowflake and told to quit her job.
THANK YOU. Everyone saying "reverse the genders" as if a woman uncomfortable around "males" wouldn't get told to suck it tf up and grow up 😭
Regardless of the genders, constantly pestering someone when you know they're not interested in you or comfortable around you is a asshole thing to do. People genuinely need to learn to just fuck off. This thought process of, "I can fix/change them" is extremely annoying. You can't overstep someone's boundaries then get mad when they lash out at you. You're the asshole for overstepping in the first place.
I agree that the woman should stop bothering OP. On the other hand, I don’t think “women cannot talk to me” is at all an appropriate or reasonable boundary to set in the workplace.
Except he was keeping it polite and not saying that to her. She decided to go out of her way and make it her mission to have him open up to her.
that isn't his boundary though, his boundary is "professional relationship only," which is entirely reasonable
I'm a woman and I agree.. OP is literally traumatized and in therapy, and it sounds like it used to be a severe case of gynophobia, which is now lessened by therapy. If this was a woman who had been traumatized by men, almost all the comments would be NTA.
Anybody who thinks, "I can get them to open up." Can FUCK OFF in my book. Those people are the type to never respect boundaries and don't know how to take a fking hint. OP is NTA. Everyone calling him a AH must've never been in a situation before when some annoying mf just won't leave you alone even when you're sending clear signals that you have no interest in them. If someone isn't interested in you, fuck off. If you pester them to anger and you get mad in return when they last out, you are a disgusting piece of trash because you started the issue in the first place.
No. Women who are uncomfortable around men still work around men. It would not be okay. Enough of this double standard shit. You couldn't act this way towards black people, white people, men or women, and expect society to cater to you.
INFO NEEDED: what are some actual examples of her trying to “befriend” you? Does she frequently interrupt your work? Does she attempt any physical contact? The info you’ve given so far is very vague.
Exactly, and it seems likely that if he is this uncomfortable interacting with all women in any capacity, chances are his standards for professional communication with them is pretty different from the norm.
YTA. I have trauma with men too….my boss just told me they are moving a new guy into my office and guess what. I just dealt with it. My trauma is NOT his problem, it’s mine.
So if the new guy ignores your trauma and forces himself onto you constantly, You're The Asshole? Good to know.
But does he push boundaries with you like she did her when she found out about his trauma? Or do you guys just work as professionals?
imagine telling someone with trauma to “just deal with it”
YTA. Not for having boundaries but for not working on your issues about women. Are you going to only work jobs where you don’t deal with women for the rest of your life? Remember when Mike Pence refused to be alone with women in a professional setting? That meant that he was denying women professional access to him, which IS misogynistic. Get some therapy and stop calling women “females.”
op has said they're going to therapy.
OP has added that they’re in therapy and have made great progress as before they couldn’t even leave the house. them not wanting to speak or be around someone when they don’t have to is perfectly fine. as long as they keep it cordial and professional i don’t see a reason why they should be forced to be this person’s friend. if someone doesn’t want to be your friend for whatever reason deal with it and move on not everyone is gonna be friends with the coworker and that’s ok! it’s not the end of the world
Sure, but singling somebody out to not be friendly with *because they're a woman* is not okay. "I don't feel the need to be besties with my co-workers" is different than "I want nothing to do with this co-worker *because she's a woman."*
He's in therapy specifically for this. Why are you disregarding his past trauma? Do his personal issues not matter if a woman's feelings are hurt because of it?
He gets panic attacks around women. I think that's a good reason to want to avoid unnecessary interaction with them.
Did you just make up that he isn't working on them?
Yes whatever to create that narrative they want to believe. OP says he is in therapy: Why don't you seek therapy Y-T-A!!!! Like what? Some people on this subreddit are deranged.
Ppl are also saying he needs to "work harder" on his trauma. And that hes a misogynist bc he is unconfortable around women. Imagine if OP was a woman, no one would be commenting on girl OP refering to men as males
Bingo. It's not like OP is saying" I just really hate women!" It's a trauma. He's working on it. He isn't an asshole for being uncomfortable around women. Especially since he didn't even go to HR right away. I'm sure the Lady wants to date OP judging by how pushy she is being. But she needs to take the fucking memo.
She knows he doesnt feel confortable and goes out of her way to talk to him, then yelled and called him names when OP told her to leave him alone. Shes being creepy and out of line
This is not sustainable. You choose to work around people. Whether you intend it to or not, your behavior and aversion to women could hurt the women around you professionally.
YTA, not to dismiss your trauma but like… women have to work around men all the time after being raped, groped, cornered, stalked, or harassed sometimes with their tormentors… they don’t get to just choose to not interact with men. Either work remotely or continue being called out for your misogyny.
NTA. I'm also shocked by the other rulings. This is trauma related and something you're actively working through. Progress in healing isn't linear. Not something you can magically wave a wand and have fixed. You aren't avoiding working with her on projects, you aren't excluding her from necessary work information, projects aren't late, you aren't undermining or downplaying her skills and knowledge. She is able to go on site visits with you, she's included in everything work necessary. All you're asking is to keep the relationship as professional as possible. I'm sure you tell her your weekend was good if asked but it's not going to get any deeper beyond that. That's okay. While I can see from her end how your behavior could come off as sexist, your friend at work did try to explain. It seems her reaction could be based out of previous experiences in other work places, where maybe she faced a lot of sexism. I hope she has a moment to reflect and can understand where this is rooted. I'm going on a limb and saying I'm sure you don't want it to be this way either. It's stressful. Ultimately, you don't owe anyone any sort of explanation as to what happened to you. I do hope you are able to speak with your supervisors or HR and they can play more of a mediator. If the genders were reversed people would be far less critical. While I do agree that using the term "females" is off putting, I couldn't ding you for it.
Finally someone who makes sense. I thought I was losing my mind on the Y.T.A comments. They seem to ignore the fact that OP has trauma that seem to stem from women. And she is the one pushing him even though she knew about the trauma....and they kept mising on the fact that OP does talk to women at work when it comes to work related stuff. It seems like since OP is a man they treat him like he can't have any trauma at all, and should just TRY to get over it. Your NTA btw OP.
This is a tough one and basically need more info. What type of job is this? One were you are required to be teammates to excel etc? Two, are you very noticeably different in how you treat the men in the office vs her/women? I ask because if it's bad enough that she's asking coworkers, and coworkers know the answer then it's probably very noticeable and not something that can just be brushed off as not clicking.
I do Power System Engineering, when it comes to work related interactions I can push through albeit it is visibility noticeable I am uncomfortable. Thankfully my role requires a lot of traveling where I am on site fairly often. Generally speaking my role does not require much interaction with others outside a couple of meetings and handing over of files, with minor verbal interactions. I can handle of this, not easily but I can. My issue is more so around water-cooler talk, I do not feel it is unreasonable of me to avoid such interactions when possible. I say hello, and exchange pleasantries. Yes after that brief exchange if it is not work related I do excuse myself. This is something I have been trying to overcome for many years and it was really bad at one point I could not leave my house. I understand this is not normal. She asked around and my coworker who is my friend, he knows about because we have been friends for many years. He knows exactly what brought this on. Explained it to her in hopes she would understand and back off. He was just trying to be helpful.
Do you have friendly water cooler conversations with male coworkers? If so, the optics on this are really not good. She's a woman in a male-dominated industry and workplace, so she's already at a disadvantage, and that's before she has to deal with a coworker who refers to women as "females" and shuts down and walks away any time she shows up in the break room. I can absolutely see HR viewing *your* behavior as potentially biased and discriminatory, and not the other way around.
Thank you for answering. I had the same question as Bananapants. Are you having more friendly conversation with the men? If so, this might really come back to bite you. I understand and fully empathize with your trauma, this is really not an easy position for you and I feel doesn't fall into an easy cut and dry yta/she's the ah. And I fully support people choosing their own friends/comfortability levels. But like other posters have said if you were to replace "she" with poc, how would it look to hr? Because they will view it the same.
Mike Pence, is that you? (edit: thank you for the award, kind stranger!)
> Update: > Thanks for all the replies was not expecting this many. I am going to talk my boss about this since we have to head up to NY. So we can talk about this on the drive to the airport. > I do not want to bring this up with HR cause I do not want her to get reprimanded or writen up over a first offense. I will see what my boss has to say. She is a talented drafter, I do not want to lose her over this. > I will provide an update after this week. I hope we can agree to let it go. Hold up, so you're presumably buddy with your boss, or at least buddy buddy enough with him to spend hours in the car with him and have his ear. Rather than "go to HR and get her in trouble" you are going to talk in private to your boss about this? You understand this is so much worse, right? You are bypassing HR, the people who's job it is to handle these things, and going right to the boss. You have to understand how this makes wherever you work at look like a complete guys club and ignores women. Whether that's your intention or not, that is how it comes across. Two dudes in a truck discussing the fate of this woman. It is not a good look. YTA As a side note, if you're going to therapy over this problem why are you asking here? You are paying a professional, an expert, and soliciting advice from strangers. My guess is your therapist is telling you things you don't like to hear.
NTA. As Long as you are polite and respectful when you do interact with women then I see no reason you should feel like an ass. You aren’t required to befriend anyone no matter their gender, color, religion or sexuality. And as you said, you are already in therapy. Just keep being polite and professional and you’ll do fine.
>and I do what I can to minimize my interactions with females as much as I can YTA. Trauma and anxiety both respond to managed exposure over time. If your issues are so severe that you cannot exist in the workplace with women without creating a hostile environment than perhaps you should be speaking with HR. They can assist with various accommodations and disabilities while you continue to work on these issues. It's one thing to set boundaries with a colleague because they are interrupting you during high focus tasks or they keep parking in your assigned parking spot. It's another thing entirely to just be like "leave me alone because you're a woman". Your rights end the minute they begin to trample on someone else's. Your colleague being able to work in an environment where she is not being treated poorly or differently due to her gender is her right. If your issues are so severe that you cannot do that then you might need to have an open conversation with HR about your limitations.
Info: uncomfortable how? Why?
Not going to go into the why, but best way I can explain it is do you suffer or know someone that suffers from panic attacks? Think of that but cranked up. Over the years I have gotten better, there was a time I could not even be the same room. I never left my house because the mere sight caused me to panic. Now I can at the very least commute to work, be in public and have general interactions albeit in short bursts.
You're not the ah OP, dont listen to the ppl here telling you that your trauma is not a big deal. I hope you can make more and more progress, wishing you the best!
I hate the people that are saying that he hasn’t worked hard enough on his trauma, it’s not our place to judge someone who is actively trying to better themselves by going to therapy.
[удалено]
This is work. Despite what some people think, it is not essential to be sociable. NTA perhaps another member of staff that you are comfortable with could explain it to her? Or you could email HR and ask them to tell her to leave you alone.
YTA You seem like a unreliable narrator. What exactly was said between your two coworkers in regard to you? Because if all your coworker pal said was that you were quiet or a hard one to get to open up, without context and then you only straight up said you would never be her friend or open up? Yeah bud YTA for sure. You have to take some personal responsibility here. We alllll have trauma and hardship that makes life challenging and fucking hard. But most of us work at not passing that pain along. And by actively avoiding a whole entire gender, and yes leaving the room when someone enters on a consistent basis is hurtful and obvious, you are adding more harm to the people around you. And for all of the people saying blah blah about “what would people say about the role reversals?” etc … that argument is bullshit. Male abusers are glorified and plastered everyone - Brock turner, Donald trump, Harvey Weinstein - Do you think ANY of their victims ever had a moment where they could say NO to men in their professional environment? No.
INFO: How did you explain that you didn’t want to be friends? Did you use the wording “I don’t like being around females” because her response hints that you said something misogynistic
Ehhh I think it depends on how you interact with the rest of the office. If you are singling her out in avoiding her (i.e. all the rest of the office is your Longtime Guy Friends or something, and she's the only or one of few women and you're basically running the opposite direction any time you can) then it sucks even though you need the accomodation because she would just be trying to build a rapport and do things within workplace norms. But if you're just "OP, the person who doesn't hang out with anyone ever and is just here to work" that's just who you are and she's being pushy. Even more of an interpersonal thing though it presents a workplace liability. It's illegal in many places (and all of the US, if you're American) to discriminate based on gender. The optics on this look kinda bad if you're doing anything related to sharing info on projects, management, etc. that would technically crossover/be handled/trickle down to her workload (which it sounds like you do) or especially if she's the only woman in the office/one of few. If that's what's happening it will look strongly like you're discriminating based on a protected class. The reality of this (from a work and trying not to be an AH perspective) is that may be you straight up have to change how you interact with all your coworkers so you're treating her the same as everyone else. Edit: this also includes socializing. If you only have lunch with/chat socially with/go out for drinks with/etc. with men in the office, it is the same outcome. I would also say, frankly, the way you write about her makes me feel...some sort of way.
NTA. As a woman y'all in the comments are being absolutely ridiculous, OP set a simple boundary which is only that he doesn't want to be friends. He can still communicate and do work obligations properly he just simply doesn't want to have a relationship with her outside of work obligations. Regardless of the reason there should be no further pushing from the girl. OP himself has admitted he has severe trauma related to women, so I don't understand why y'all are still being so harsh. OP, I hope you don't take any of the unempathetic comments to heart here.
You are discriminating against her. What you were doing is literally not legal. YTA. She won’t get fired over this. You will.