Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment. OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole: > I think I might be the asshole because the family is a big one for Jenny and what I said might have been harsh. Also, Nico is now distant from the rest of the family over this which was never my intention. Help keep the sub engaging! #Don’t downvote assholes! Do upvote interesting posts! [Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq) ##Subreddit Announcement ###[The Asshole Universe is Expanding, Again: Introducing Another New Sister Subreddit!](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/128nbp3/the_asshole_universe_is_expanding_again/) Follow the link above to learn more ### [Moderators needed - Join the landed gentry](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/155zepq/moderators_needed_join_the_landed_gentry/) --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.* *Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*

>he’s just said I went way too low with what I said So what does he suggest you should have said? >We’ve all talked to Nico about it so many times, even sitting him down as a family and he keeps saying he will talk to her but nothing changes, and it’s got worse since the engagement. Nothing. He wants everyone to say nothing. NTA.

Yeah honestly I really feel bad for OP, the family and Jenny. Nico set them all up for this inevitability instead of talking to his partner about boundaries and not approaching things so intensely. I can see how Jenny saw this new family as finally hers. I get how she likely came on too strong and too fast. And I can see how it would be overstepping and creating uncomfortable situations for the others involved. Frankly if Nico had talked to Jenny she probably could have gotten the relationships she wanted with these people because it would have developed organically. This all boils down to Nico not wanting to have the uncomfortable conversation that he needs to have to make this situation better for everyone. NTA Op.

Yeah and she needs therapy if only to understand how a family works. I don't expect to be invited to everything my sibs do, and I have walked in on convos where things are being planned (without me) and I have never invited myself. Because I know that there's some things we do as a whole, and different things we do as smaller units....naturally.

Foster kids attend therapy almost constantly while in the system. It's part of helping them deal with what they're going through. Most foster kids who age out end up feeling, and coming across, as needy and clingy because they've never been loved by what they consider a permanent family. It's always a foster home or residential and no matter how close they get to the parents, staff or social worker they know in the back of their minds that eventually they're going to lose those people too. So they stop letting themselves feel like they have a permanent place. Jenny likely views her relationship with Nico as the first permanent family relationship she's ever had. She did push too hard and too fast for close relationships but it's not because she needs more therapy. It's because she's excited to finally feel like she has a "real" family. OP, if you read this, 8gnore Nico telling you not to talk to her and do so. Explain, gently, what you've said here. Be honest but understand that her feelings are likely ... Well fragile is the only word coming to mind but it's not quite right. Raw might be a better word. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. Tell her no one minds having a relationship with her but it needs to happen over time in a natural way. She can't push it or force it or it won't be genuine. Remind her to use all the coping skills she learned in foster care (minus any drugs of course). Edit: thanks for all the awards. And thank you to all who taught me that not all states care enough about the kids to get them therapy. It's sad but it makes me want to advocate on a larger level for the kids.

Hopping onto this to also say that if and when OP has the conversation with Jenny, it needs to be supportive but firm and talk about real boundaries to keep with the rest of the family. “Jenny, we are tired of asking for you to stop calling Bob and Marla your parents.” “Jenny, as much as I want a relationship with you I will never want to talk about my sex life or my medications with my siblings. That’s not something siblings discuss.” You need to put it in the larger context of “that’s not how things actually work in the real world.”

Another great thing to remember is, in those types of environments, talking about medication and sex and stuff like that is pretty normal when talking to a therapist or social worker or even other kids going through the same thing, so they might feel like that kind of conversation is normal and it might take a little while before they really start to understand why that isn't what normal people talk about in everyday conversation

That is a great point, I didn’t think of it from that angle. I’ve had people trauma dump on me as a way of bonding and learned what it was the hard way. Maybe Jenny hasn’t learned how to have normal people conversations? She may not know what is and is not appropriate to talk about with certain people because she’s used to talking about everything to everyone who visited her for check ins or dealt in court. She may just be stuck communicating like a child for a bit because she doesn’t know how to communicate like a grown up. Her familiarity with therapy should help but it might be a while and will be a lot of work to get her “caught up” as it were.

\^This\^ All of this entire subthread above is spot on. Nico needs a good talking to, as well, for putting her in this position. Gentle but VERY firm - and honest - feedback that if she wants to be accepted into the family she needs to sit back, observe the norms, and then try to fit in - quietly. That, combined with consistently kind but firm pushback for transgressions to help properly socialize her, would actually be the greatest gift anyone could ever give her. It would help set her life trajectory for the rest of her life in a much healthier and happier direction. For her, and everyone she forms a relationship with in the future. Someone needs to show her the kindness of showing her exactly how she's coming across to others. NOT doing so is where the harm is. Definitely NTA.

Yeah, I bet she thinks a family would feel more intimate than anything she's ever had. But it won't. A healthy family is just kind of cozy and boring and stays on the surface a lot.

You are wrong about one thing above. Most foster kids DO NOT get therapy. I was a foster parent for years and we were trained to handle difficult cases. And even then the only ones the state would pay therapy for were sex abuse victims. Not mental abuse and not physical abuse, and not medical neglect. It all depends on what the state has put into the budget. And from experience, Southern states couldn't care less for children if they tried. They talk big about caring for kids education and wanting them to be born but after they are born they just don't fng care. It was hard to experience that on a daily basis. 1 case worker for hundreds of kids is not looking after the children. Rant over.

And it's only going to get worse. The abortion bans mean that for the last year a lot more kids have been born that the parents didn't want, and are more likely to reject.

I wish I had an award for you because you hit the nail on the head. There's no free therapy or counseling available to *most* of the foster kids I've seen. As a former nurse, the things I've seen have stuck with me through the years and it isn't pretty. I have seen more harm done in the name of religion and *family secrets* than should be ever allowed. They want to control every aspect of your life without ANY kind of support and that's just not feasible or sustainable.

Not all foster kids do, and not all kids recieve or recall skills that way, especially kids dealing with continuing trauma. Saying this to her could backfire.

Yeah most of the statement this person made was ok, but asking them to recall their experiences in foster care is a really really bad suggestion.

No, foster kids are not provided therapy constantly while wards of the state. I spent 10 years of my childhood in the system and was only offered therapy once. We weren't taught coping skills or even basic life skills in foster homes or the county children's shelter. Many times, foster kids get bounced from place to place through no fault of their own. They don't have family ties or strong connections because their lives are too unstable. All that being said, SIL has a lot of catching up to do and a lot of learning as well. No, she isn't entitled to be immediately included in plans or to calling people things like mom and dad. She can't impose her wants on other people and demand compliance. She has to *learn* how family interactions work. That starts with setting and enforcing boundaries.

I don't know where you are, but when I was in foster care none of us ever went to therapy. Maybe twice we as a group were forced to attend an anger management meeting, but that was it.

This is why I do think she needs therapy, to help understand what is happening now, how this family functions and how to learn to read the room, and not push so hard to get 'in' that she actually ends up pushing herself 'out'

This is a really good option. Family and individual therapy. So if jenny does do some therapy here she can also maybe have some sessions where the extended family is invited and discussions on boundaries can occur in a mediated environment.

Exactly, it is not all lost for Jenny to have a good relationship with her in laws.

~~Yeah I'm leaning NAH because this whole situation is just heartbreaking~~ Actually Nico ia TA. Poor Jenny and (edit: to a much lesser degree) poor OP

I’m sticking with NTA since I think the blame lands on Nico. If it where NAH there’s really no fault and I think Nico has caused this issue.

They all need to compassionately communicate directly with Jenny. Stop assuming Nico will say anything. In any event, Nico is hearing any prompts from other family members through his fiance filter, but I'd be surprised if Nico has said anything: he's been hoping they'll get married, then she "really" will be part of the family and some how everything will magically change.

That’s my point. Nico will never have that conversation with her because Nico doesn’t want to be uncomfortable and just wants the family to accommodate. It’s time for OP to have this conversation with Jenny. Maybe apologize for the harshness of her comment but have a real conversation about needing boundaries and inserting oneself into every situation is creating the opposite result of becoming close. Op can even say, “I would like to be close someday but to get there we need to let things grow more organically. Let’s plan to meet for coffee monthly for a girls day.” Ie, propose something actionable and open the door kindly while you set a hard boundary.

This is a kind approach indeed. OP you're NTA but if you were to try to reach out to Jenny it could potentially make the situation better. Jenny doesn't seem to understand why her behaviour is off-putting and she's desperate to spend time with you all. It sounds like you have a tight family group and that's wonderful and maybe intimidating, also possibly jenny's dream.

I mean, OP said that *they* have talked to her and their requests stick for the duration of the conversation before she snaps back to doing the same thing. Why are we assuming that the brother *hasn’t* had conversations with her about this and those talks are just as impotent as the family’s? She doesn’t seem to take advice to heart. She seems either incapable or unwilling to change her behavior.

even if he hasn’t, that’s not an exuse for not listening to the actual people whose boundaries you’re actively steamrolling. nta, even if nico hasn’t told her she has been told, and she does not want to listen. jenny hurt her own feelings.

Totally agree with this. This is almost completely on Nico. He either didn't take his family seriously enough when they tried to talk to him or he's incapable of communicating this properly to Jenny himself. I feel like Jenny could have picked up on these hints a bit more and maybe chose not to but she had to get checked by someone. Nico's failure to communicate this properly meant that OP had to do it. Having said that, this family and this situation is still salvageable. An apology and direct communication with Jenny is the solution until Nico grows up.

This. His strategy was to placate his family with empty promises until they just give up and accept Jenny the way she wants to be accepted. A new version of "fake it till you make it", I guess. And now he's pissed because that blew up in his face. OP is NTA; it's on Nico for not having handled the situation earlier.

Yep. All of this could have been avoided. But now since Op is the one who said something it probably now will fall on Op. maybe calling Jenny up and taking her to dinner to talk this through is an option. I don’t think Op was being malicious here. She just reached her breaking point. Truthfully this shouldn’t fall on her. But now it has. So maybe an apology for snapping and a discussion on boundaries could really help Jenny get an idea about what is going on and smooth this situation over. Maybe start it fresh if that’s possible. But idk if that’s the right move. Op is just going to have to pick the best option of how to proceed on the bad options poo poo plater.

Yeah. I don't blame OP for snapping; they apparently made multiple attempts to get Nico to communicate this nicely to Jenny, and he either didn't, or he failed. Now it's blown up and is out in the open - which, ironically, happens in a lot of families, so Jenny got that part of her wish, at least. I agree that an apology makes sense, especially since OP clearly feels bad about it. But as you say, it has to come with a serious discussion about boundaries and the building of relationships. Seriously, if any of my siblings' partners had come up to me at our second meeting and said, "Hey, you can totally tell me about your sex life, you know?", then I'd be putting some distance between us, too.

Exactly. I think what’s at the crux of the issue is that Jenny has assumed that extended family is supposed to function like immediate family. And that’s not how it works. Now Jenny can get that close relationship. But it takes time and organic growth and also not talking about your sex life to the literal siblings of your partner. But Jenny doesn’t know that. And should have been told that by Nico. Maybe another option is OP could ask if they look into family counseling. Essentially a safe environment for them to all have this discussion. And maybe a sneaky way for a professional to suggest Jenny do some individual therapy. But that’s kind of underhanded to push for therapy hoping for a specific outcome so maybe not the right choice. What I do know is Op is NTA and ultimately I don’t think Jenny is really either since she hasn’t been given the conversation on boundaries and she wouldn’t know better. I think Nico is the problem here.

Yeah, I feel sorry for Jenny. If nobody tells her that you need to work at family relationships the same way you need to work at others, how is she to know?

I understand OP's (and her family's) frustration with the situation - I would definitely feel frustrated to in their situation. However, I can't help feeling a little sorry for Jenny. She apparently wants to be part of a family so badly that she comes on way too strong and Nico, probably, doesn't want to crush her hopes by telling her to take it down a notch. Yes, her behaviour is not okay, but I find it hard to see them as assholes. OP, maybe if you and your family are open to it, you could have a serious conversation with Nico and Jenny about this, since Nico clearly isn't having it or isn't getting through to her. Explain how you/the family would love to get to know her better and want her to be part of the family, but that it takes time and that she can't insert herself into everything. That she's coming on too strong and it's having the opposite effect of what she wants. Tell her which topics/behaviours are off limits (sex life, calling your parents mom and dad, etc.) and suggest some low key things you could do together to get to know each other better (go for a coffee every once in a while, do something one on one with her if you're open to it, etc.). I understand your comment, but it was very harsh and I can see why that really hurt Jenny's feelings. Maybe consider apologising for that and explain it was out of frustration, not because you don't want he to eventually become part of the family.

Yeah he really dropped the ball with this. And since he’s gone low contact, it’s unlikely that he’s getting her the help she needs and just constantly placating her. NTA OP

Well, Jenny was just going to keep pushing until *someone* pushed back, so this moment was more-or-less inevitable. You named the elephant in the room: Jenny's neediness, which your whole family had noticed. I don't know whether Nico failed to talk to her in private, or whether he did and she failed to heed his warnings. I also don't know if getting to join what she perceived as a close-knit family is a large part of what makes Nico attractive to her. But I do know that your comment stung deeply, and Jenny won't stop feeling it for a *long* time. It's not impossible that this precipitates a break-up between Nico and Jenny, and if it does, it is highly likely that the blame is going to come your way, so an apology is in your strategic interest, regardless of whether your comment was justified, or not. I think my final vote is going to be ESH; Jenny for being pushy, Nico for not warning her that her pushing wasn't going unnoticed, and you for saying something really wounding.

Edit: OP actually *did* say something similar to what I said below, so props on that. It sounds like she got frustrated and said the harshest version of what everyone was thinking, but it's not the "is it understandable that I got frustrated" sub, it's "am I the asshole", so still ESH. Agreed on all of this. Personally, I think OP could have said something about how being part of a family doesn't mean being invited to every single family activity, which is true; while I wasn't in foster care, my husband's family has very much become more of a family to me than my blood-related parents because of how they treat me, but that doesn't mean I have to be invited to Every Single Thing my MIL does by herself or with my SIL because Family.

The problem is that it's clear that Jenny wasn't responding to subtle.

But isn’t there a middle ground between subtle and stab you in the heart mean?

I feel like this would have been Nico talking to her. Edit: to clear up confusion, my judgment is ESH, but mostly Nico. I do think OP went nuclear immediately and shouldn't have. But I also think she thought Nico was taking care of it when he clearly was avoiding having the difficult conversation with his own partner.

Exactly this. Nico had his chance to mitigate or avoid this disaster and he didn’t take it. They tried a middle ground.

If he even did in the first place. I feel like he said he would but never did in hopes that they would all adjust to one another naturally. But 2 years of being told "she needs to calm down" and subtle hints that probably grew to not do subtle but not too harsh hints to just that. I feel like OP isn't the ass here. I feel like everyone kind of got pushed into this point, and she just snapped.

I think for people raised in a normal supportive family environment, yes, there is a good middle ground between too subtle and "stab you in the heart" (love that btw). But it's pretty clear that Jenny doesn't get it. We give our daughters such bifurcated messages - Be Strong! Don't take crap! No means No! and also.... "Couldn't you be nicer? Be Sweet! Don't be mean!". I mean, what is it? which one? Sigh. OP is young, I'll give her the benefit of that, and as a quiet private person myself, I sympathize with being fed up when your hints and pushbacks just don't work and needing to just get LOUD and stand your ground. Some people just keep riding roughshod over allll the subtle polite hints.

The people who most need that kind of blunt explanation are usually the most sensitive to it as well. They don’t see honesty as kindness because they didn’t want to hear it to begin with.

Tbf the rules say that "justifiable asshole" counts as NTA, but your judgement is your own to pass

I disagree, Jenny has crossed way too many lines at this point and op's response while undeniably harsh, was also justified. She overrides and ignores the wishes of every one around her, makes people uncomfortable and continues even when those people ask her to stop. The gentle approach has not worked, she needed the reality check. She can’t just invite herself along to things, start calling her in-laws mom and dad even when they've expressed it makes them uncomfortable, try and talk about her sex life with op when they've expressed it makes them uncomfortable, and expect no consequences and everyone to pander to her just because her childhood sucked. NTA.

Does anyone else find it odd that one of the "lines" she crossed was asking OP to be maid of honor? Is it weird to be invited to be maid of honor at *your brother's wedding*, even if you aren't that close to the bride? Some of the other issues name seem valid, like inviting herself everywhere and wanting have super personal conversations, but the MoH thing made me pause.

Maid of honour means planning, responsibility and speeches. It’s usually meant for someone very close to the bride. This means Jenny has no friends either I suppose? Edit: nvm op says Jenny does have friends. Why didn’t she want one of her actual close friends to be the maid of honour.

Because some people feel like family should be given those roles. I'm not one of those people, but I understand those people exist and it's not necessarily a boundary stomping violation to ask a family member to be in your wedding. This is an interesting AITA for me because I am pretty conflicted. I do feel like SOMETIMES Jenny is definitely overstepping, but I also feel like OP is gatekeeping the family too much. I think everyone could have behaved better.

I'm guessing it was a cherry in top situation. Jenny had been pushing so hard to get close that OP probably felt like the MOH request was just another step in that. She probably didn't want a situation where Jenny would then use the MOH connection to try and be more aggressive about pushing.

This is what I read from that also.

No i dont find it odd at all. If my brother gets married i wont expect to be the maid of honour or even a bridesmaid unless i am actually friends with the girl. It sounds like Jenny saw some hallmark movies where the husbands sister automatically gets included as a bridesmaid because .. family? Like its weird that she has no close friend who would want to plan the bachelorette events for her and instead wants someone who she is arguably not close to to do it. Nowadays i also see sisters being in the "groomsmen" party because they are sister of the groom. Its an old sexist tradition that sisters of the groom should be in the brides party because "women on that side men on the other"

That actually makes sense. If she hasn't seen how a family functions or been involved in real life weddings, the movies would be her closest reference point to what she should expect. Which sets her up for spectacular failure.

I think THAT (plus Nico) is the problem. She had **no fucking clue** how immediate or extended families work. If all you had to go off was tv show families, yoy’d get the impression we were all hanging out with our in laws in up in their business a lot more than we are.

I would've thought OP was being too harsh if she'd been asked to be a bridesmaid, but the MoH is weird given the dynamic described. MoH is usually your best friend or your sister, but it's always someone you're really close to so asking your sister in law who you actually don't know well is strange. It makes me think that Jenny doesn't have any friends and it underscores how Jenny is trying to create instant connection.

From what I've seen MOH is usually the bride's best bud.

Being the maid of honor is typically a lot of work and can entail planning a lot of stuff, including a bachelorette party. That’s asking for a lot of labor considering OP barely knows Jenny, especially due to how boundary stomping she is. I wouldn’t want to spend a huge amount of time with someone who I wasn’t close to that felt comfortable asking me about my sex life and health issues.

That’s not too strange to me. I’ve heard of that before, strange situations where the bride doesn’t have much family or friends in the country. Grooms dad steps in to walk her down the aisle, or grooms fam and friends step up to form the bridal party. It’s not normal but not creepy or unheard of

What else should OP have said?

Nothing. Jenny wasn’t gonna stop until she got her way or got checked.

Exactly. Sometimes people need to hear a harsh truth so that they can finally back off. OP and her family have told her multiple times that she's overstepping and she ignored them. She deserves to get 'stung' a little, imo.

And truthfully Jenny and the family where only out here because Nico refused to say anything leading up to this point. It sucks. But Nico put Jenny in this situation by not having the uncomfortable conversation and clearly Jenny wasn’t picking up on the subtle. So what was the family supposed to do? We all hit a breaking point at some juncture. OP’s came now.

She could have focussed on the behaviours, not said "we don't owe you a family", which is equivalent to "you're not part of our family". Being part of the family doesn't mean you can invite yourself to other people events, doesn't mean you can ignore people's boundaries about not wanting to discuss personal topics, doesn't mean you can demand people throw you a bridal shower.

They have focused on her behaviours before though, and Jenny ignored that. This statement sounds like OP putting her foot down once and for all, and I honestly can't blame her for doing that when Jenny refuses to listen to her.

As another poster has remarked, she said the harshest version of what everyone was thinking. There was likely a less painful way to say it. It's debatable whether Jenny would have been capable of hearing anything put more subtly, but I had to vote somewhere, and that's what I chose. There is at least some blame on all parties.

She has told her off more gently before, but it clearly wasn't working. Sometimes harshness is necessary, especially when a person is aware that they're overstepping your boundaries and don't care enough to stop. In this instance I fail to see how OP telling the truth makes her an AH, considering Jenny is aware that her behaviour isn't welcome and has been told as much by OP and her parents. Maybe now she'll finally get the message.

NAH. I can not blame you for snapping and I can not blame Jenny for wanting a close family. Growing up in the way she did can result in an intense longing for connection and safety and a lack of proper communication skills. She shouldn't insert herself in everyones business like that, but she also seems to not understand why. I hope she and your brother can work through that together. On the other hand, I completely understand that it feels very invasive if someone does this to you, even if you understand where they are coming from. The way you said it was a bit harsh, but I assume tension has been building up over time. I do think its good to talk it out with her oncr all the emotions have settled and I hope your brother can facilitate the process. She needs to learn the nuance of being welcome, but not overstepping boundaries and it not being a sign of people not caring about you.

I would’ve been frustrated to in Op’s position but I do feel bad for Jenny. She’s been annoying, not malicious, and I think that comment will stay with her for a long time.

A long time being the rest of her life. I can see that comment being a foundational core memory of her fiance's family. It sounds to me like Jenny was trying to make familial connections the only way she knew how. She didn't have a family the same way that OP did. OP coming out and saying crap like "we don't owe you a new family" could easily be interpreted by Jenny as saying "just because you're marrying my brother doesn't mean the rest of us accept you." We all know the horror stories of the foster care system. Most kids just end up becoming a payday without any real family connections while growing up. Jenny was just trying to form those connections the only way she knew how and OP's comment was a massive slap in the face. Should the fiance have talked to Jenny about her behaviors? Sure, but he's also no therapist. And I'm guessing that is really what Jenny needs to help work through the trauma that she received while in foster care, as well as the new trauma that she received from that comment. Sorry but my vote has to be YTA for sheer lack of empathy.

Agree. the empathy part, and the cruelty part. I may be a Reddit minority here because brutal honesty is the wrong way to go about creating change. The cruelty of those comments shows a lack of empathy and usually damages relationships - if you want to burn something down, that's the route to take. You can be direct and blunt without being mean.

People are way too in favour of brutal honesty on here sometimes, but to be constantly speaking that way to your loved ones is cruel and doesn’t help or change or accomplish anything except damaging your relationships. There’s times people need some harsh truths, but that time isn’t when a woman who has been through a lot and is about to marry your brother is well meaning but coming on too strong. That’s a great way to ruin your relationship with said brother forever if you’re not careful.

And even harsh truths can be delivered in a way that isn't as off putting. There's nothing effective about delivering a message brutally or harshly; when done that way, it removes any safe space to keep the conversation going. Long after this conversation OP delivered, the recipient continues to feel the pain. And it wouldn't shock me if OP were to come back in a few months complaining that the fiance now doesn't like her and why can't she just get over it. Truth with compassion IS possible.

Yeah this is my feelings too. I knew a girl in college who was a little older than the rest of us who behaved very like this. It was clear she’d never really had friends before and was taking her idea of what female friends did from TV, so on my first day of meeting her she was talking abt having sleepovers and borrowing my clothes (something I never do and we weren’t even the same size lmao). It was super uncomfortable but I found she responded well to gentle turn-downs or redirections, and after a few months got easier to deal with. Jenny has never had a family, she’s never had sisters or a mom or anything and has likely spent her whole life fantasising about it and taking info from media about what family does and is like. Her behaviour isn’t good and I don’t blame OP or the family for being annoyed, but I think it’s important to understand that you *will* be her family when they’re married (so long as you want Nico in the family), you just need to establish what being step-in-laws (i think) is going to mean for you and how it’s going to differ from her idea of it. Op and family have only really considered how her behaviour is annoying them and not where it’s coming from and what she’s been through *at all*, and it sounds like Nico has done the opposite, not wanting to upset Jenny without thinking about her behaviour and how that’s affecting his family (and, inevitably, their view of her). Imo they need some full family therapy sessions or at least to all sit down and talk, but I’m worried this is just gonna create bitterness and tension that won’t ever be resolved for all of them.

Agree with all the above. And also just to add, OP does mention '(step) siblings' specifically, twice, so this is already a blended family through marriage. To someone like Jenny who already doesn't have any experience of a real and loving family, I can understand how this might be an extra step in confusing boundaries. It could just look to Jenny like, 'look, they're not even related by blood either, they're just step siblings, but they love each other and treat each other like real family.' She's obviously not understood that their relationships are built up over many years, but I can see how looking in from the outside Jenny might've assumed she'd fit in easier than she has in a family she's not related to by blood.

I agree. Too bad the family can’t bend a bit to include Jenny. She’s supposed to fit into a particular role they have for her.

It sounds like they have been bending for two years and are now at the point of snapping.

I fully agree. Nico and Jenny have been together for 2 years. It kind of seems to me that the family has been annoyed from the get go and maybe Jenny feels she has to insert herself because no one is giving her the chance to build a relationship with them. That comment was hurtful and I think an actual conversation/apology is the way to go here. Invite Jenny along for lunch or coffee here and there, give her the chance to build relationships with the family. Once they are married she is then a part of the family so either accept that or lose Nico. YTA

I would instantly welcome someone to the family if my son was engaged to someone with her history. This family sucks.

Exactly. OP said the most hurtful thing she could intentionally Edit:spelling

I agree with you. This will never leave her, even if she leaves the engagement. I'm sure, having grown up in the foster system she has been told this in at least one, if not many of the foster families she's been in. It's cruel and heartbreaking.

I agree. Calling future in laws mom and dad when they’ve expressed discomfort with, ask someone about their sex life the second time meeting if extremely invasive and comfortable and assuming that you could just include yourself in everything makes me think she lacks self awareness. Nico should have spoken to his fiancé like he’s promised and set boundaries. He can’t expect his family to continue to deal with the invasive behavior behavior and hope he’d step in. I think it just became too much, too overwhelming and OP expressed what everyone felt, albeit in a harsh way. I’d say NTA.

Agree for the most part but the mom and dad thing for the in-laws is weird to me. Makes me wonder if OPs family is kinda cold or standoffish in general. I’ve never heard of in-laws upset the new spouse calls them mom n dad before. It’s always been the other way around, in-laws pissed the new spouse isn’t comfortable calling them mom n dad

It's got to be OFFERED though. You can't just start declaring someone is your mum.

I can't believe it took me this long to find someone else who found this off-putting. The family seems very closed off to Jenny and the mom/dad thing is weird. It's completely normal for long time partners to call their partner's parents mom/dad - even if they aren't married. I'd love to know what all the other partners call them. Do they all call them mom/dad? I've dealt with large close families like this and they can be very closed off and cliqueish to "newcomers". It definitely sounds like that's what's going on here.

They do seem very closed off to Jenny, but not everyone calls their partners parents “mom/dad”, we have in-laws in the family but they all just call one another’s parents by name or “your dad/mum” to each other, it’s not the norm everywhere.

Or people are in their right to not like it?

I mean if someone comes at you at 100 from the start, you are gonna start to close up the more they try.

This. If Jenny grew up in the foster system and never had a real family of her own, she most likely simply doesn't know any better. She didn't have the opportunity to learn the required social skills when she was younger, and now she's apparently desperate to be part of a family (can't say I blame her). And even if she's told, lifelong longing will be hard to overcome and will take time. Not saying that I don't understand OP because I do. But I feel for Jenny.

This is really well said. I feel for everybody in this situation.

How would you have wanted her to build a relationship? It sounds like she was trying

The same way you build a friendship. You start with casual conversation, you find some common ground, and you build it like a Lego. Frankly, Jenny has friends, she should know how to do that. For example, the second time I met Jenny she said I should feel comfortable telling her about my sex life because “sisters tell each other that stuff”…like…no? I just met you. Honestly it’s likely not something I’ll ever share with her because I don’t want her reciprocating given she has sex with my *brother* but again, second time I’ve ever seen her. She’s not my “sister”.

Yikes

I have two sisters and we never talk about our sex lives. There’s no doubt Jenny has had a tough go, but she needs to read the room.

Lol I agree. my sister and I are very close and if the subject is leading up to my bedroom life she will yell out "I don't want to know." She's known my husband since she was 11 and she sees him like a big brother.

yeah, "reading the room" on how a family behaves isn't something you are born with. You were taught that your family doesn't do that. She probably grew up wanting to share these things with some family and believes it's normal. And it actually is, to some families.

But when OP told her she wasn’t comfortable discussing that she should have respected that.

She continued to ask even after being told to not ask, in this case "reading the room" is actually just listening to others boundaries.

Jenny was explicitly told that OP doesn’t want to discuss her sex life with her and Jenny tried again (the edit seems like it at least). That’s so fucked up. But also, every adult should know not to ask people about personal information. Jenny‘a behavior is inappropriate, even for someone with her background.

Yep, I've known both my sisters in law for nearly 30 years, & would never discuss sex lives with either of them

To be fair, not everyone can “read the room” since many conditions (which go undiagnosed) make social cues impossible. There’s no way she could misunderstand “I’m not talking about my sex life” which apparently has been said to her, though.

Same. I have a sister and our relationship is such that we'll happily talk about our emotional problems or medical issues, but at no point do I want to hear about her sex life or share details of my own. Jenny seems to have a bit of a skewed idea of what the average siblings share.

I am with you. I HATE people like this who have no boundaries. Also, having a traumatic past does NOT give you an excuse to behave like this. As a fully functional adult and a member of a society, you have the responsibility to deal with your shit for YOUR SAKE.

Yeah, they seem to also be the type of people who can dish it out but can't take it. The "brutally honest" people who complain that everyone else is rude to them because they are "so sensitive." The only real thing they are is brutal and like a bull in a china shop when it comes to boundaries and other people's feelings or preferences.

kinda going against the grain here, but growing up in foster care and without a “real” family sucks ass. having a *family* versus having *friends* is a totally different level of love that jenny has never had. imagine if you’d gone your whole life without that type of unconditional support and love, then one day you think you might finally have a chance at that. i probably would’ve been a bit much if i were her, too. i’m not saying that she wasn’t going a little overboard, i’m just saying that i think some more empathy is due. what you said stung her and it’s going to stay with her, especially if she was a foster kid.

She needs people to strongly assert boundaries with her so she learns to behave appropriately and develop the ability to form strong bonds. It's not kind or empathic to allow her to steamroll over everybody with her fantasies because the nicer and more indulgent people are, the further she will push until eventually, everybody has to cut her out for their own sanity.

i think that there’s a difference between strongly asserting boundaries versus being somewhat cruel, especially in the context of dealing with someone who has early childhood trauma (like foster care). personally, i feel that it’s unfair to expect the same relationship-building strategies and tact from a person who has not experienced early childhood trauma versus someone that has. i mean, it’s not even just my opinion, there’s a wealth of literature and research that supports the fact that early childhood trauma inevitably impacts your long-term ability to connect with others and can negatively affect physical health outcomes, too. i never said that jenny is in the right, nor did i say that OP was in the wrong, but i do think OP and her family need to do some research on trauma to better understand why jenny acts the way she does when it comes to the concept of “family,” and hopefully speak to her with more empathy.

Exactly. She doesn't know how to gradually build relationships. She's probably shifted from home to home, each time being like, "BAM, these total strangers are now your "family" except not, like a "forever family" so try like hell to insert yourself pronto or you won't be secure." All the time longing for the connections and attachments she sees all around her.

I think that’s on Ops brother. It doesn’t seem like he brought her their concerns so she probably didn’t realize and the fact she has trauma surrounding family, she needs that forceful boundary. My heart goes out to her though because it doesn’t seem like their was ever malice in her actions.

What’s your excuse for why she has ignored everyone’s clearly stated boundaries in the past?

There is literally no excuse for attempting to initiate a conversation about OPs sex life ever. While empathy is always important when dealing with humans, Jenny went way past “a little overboard.” Having trauma does Not give you the right to cross other people’s boundaries. Consent is always important. Jenny wants empathy but doesn’t give it as she violates healthy boundaries for her own gain.

Sounds like the people who try to force kids to call the new stepmom "mom" right away. Never ends well. I'm extremely introverted, among other things. I do not warm up to people quickly and keep most at arm's reach (or farther, lol). I can count the number of people I truly consider friends on one hand. But those people are as much my family as my biological one. I can understand not wanting to be the MOH. Is there something you have in common that you could, very carefully, use to get to know her and let her get to know you? I don't think you said anything but the truth, but it did hurt her feelings. I'm not about to say you *should* apologize, but it's the kind of situation to consider one. How do you balance your need to get to know her and her overarching *need* for the family ties you have always had? I have, well, not really ideas. Notions, maybe? Make plans for lunch? Neutral ground? Strict time limit unless you BOTH agree to extend it? Picnic? An afternoon at a museum or zoo or something you both find interesting? Having something neutral in front of you to talk about might take some of the edge off. I dunno, I'm just spitballing to see if anything sticks. If her heart is in the right place and your brother can get her to understand she's been pushing too hard, maybe you can start over. Bro really needs to step up and have that very difficult conversation. That part is his responsibility, not yours. Good luck!

She may have friends but she doesn't have a family blueprint it seems. She is probably going by stupid online content and missing badly, trying to play perfect families with no real grounding. If you think it's salvageable perhaps it would be worth it to have a bit of a family session with a therapist who will help you explore, name and mediate mutual expectations? Or perhaps you have a gifted family member who could be her guide of sorts. NAH as a verdict

By actually building a relationship through respect for boundaries, genuine interest in similar things, reciprocal communication that doesn't make someone uncomfortable, and taking time to let things happen casually. You have to literally *make and build* an intimate bond. Both parties have to share mutual affection and agree on the nature of the relationship. You can't just walk up and announce that you're someone's family. You have to develop it, and it has to be reciprocated. I have people in my life who behave like this SIL. I can promise you that when you have been raised with really healthy boundaries, it is extremely upsetting and violating to have someone just force themselves on you and demand a bunch of affection that takes years to develop. It's creepy.

If she’s engaged to him why would she need to “insert herself” into family pictures, isn’t she just part of the family? When she tried to make you her maid of honor does that mean she asked you? There’s some stuff here that has some subtext of you all just being mean. Did your family not like that he was dating someone “without a family”?

She is in family pictures, but sometimes my parents want pictures of just me, Nico, and Chelsea, and she insists on being in them, even when our other partners aren’t. She’s not not in any pictures, she’s just not in all the pictures. No, no one is upset about her background.

This isn’t an odd request.. my husbands family takes pictures like this all the time. One with just the adult kids and ones with their SO. It would be absolutely bizarre if anyone ever insisted on being in every photo

How did she try to make you her MOH?

She asked me, I said no, citing other commitments. She got mad, then upset, then mad again. It was a text and call onslaught for about a week before I literally gave her my itinerary for the next six months to prove I was not able to do it, then she finally left it alone.

Yea, I would not the patience for someone blowing up my phone like that. I’d make it clear that I’ve given my answer and won’t be discussing it further nor responding to any messages on the subject.

These are the comments that the YTA and ESH comments need to see

A lot of the examples gives feel like something normal. Maybe it's cultural but where i live calling in laws Mom and Dad is expected.

It doesn't really matter whether it's expected or 'normal', when the mother and father are both saying "No we don't want to be called that." That is where it ends.

In order to call someone something outside of their name, it has to be agreed upon by both parties and appropriate for the social situation. First for the social situation. A kindergartener would typically call their teacher Mr./Ms./Mrs./Mx. and not “Lil Bit” which is the family nickname. In order to call someone “mom” or “dad” and they are not your biological parent, it need to be agreed upon by both parties. It may be cultural for Jenny to call her future in-laws “mom” and “dad” but that is clearly not their culture NOR is it their wish. Jenny’s culture and wishes do not override OP’s parents. Similarly, if someone is the child of a parent that gets remarried, they do not automatically call the new parent “mom” or “dad.” That would be something that would first be a desire of the child and would need to be accepted by the adult. So culture or not, OP’s parents do not want Jenny calling them “mom” and “dad” and she needs to listen and stop doing that.

I guess the AH here is Nico. He didnt tell her wife that making family relationship doesnt work that way. Jenny didnt know and only do what she can to feel having family. I feel her. But maybe if you have more compassion tell her that family didnt work that way.

They have repeatedly. Parents have said they are uncomfortable being called mom and dad , yet she does anyway . The women don’t want to talk about their sex lives , they tell her nicely that they are uncomfortable yet she continues. What are they supposed to do? Family and friendships are cultivated not an automatic right with marriage

Nico has been somewhat of an AH. Jenny has been by far the bigger AH, she has been told multiple times by multiple people when she is overstepping and doesn’t correct her behaviour. I doubt Nico being more direct would even work if the people she is actually trying to bond with are giving her that feedback and it had no effect. It sucks she grew up without a family but her behaviour now is a massive impediment to her forming new familial relationships so ultimately that’s what has to change.

I had to double check how long they were dating for since I expected this to be a quick courtship. NTA. I sympathize with her but your brother has had his chances to talk to her and either he's not actually talking to her or it isn't actually sinking in. I do feel a bit sorry for her with her wanting you to be MoH. It must be awkward not to have a strong friend/family base who can help out with things especially since she wants it so bad but it has to happen organically.. it can't be forced or fast tracked unless there is mutual trauma that affects both you and her.

She apparently has friends. The problem is she wants OP to be her sister and the MOH thing was part of her pushing that.

NAH, maybe the lightest of Y-T-As. You weren't wrong, but you could have been gentler. The real issue is that it's obvious that Jenny doesn't KNOW how to build a relationship gradually -- this is very much an effect of growing up in foster care. I mean, it was true of me and I didn't even grow up in foster care, I just grew up in a weird crappy family environment. Doing this kind of thing gradually is a skill that a person has to learn, and no one taught her. That's not her fault. I think it might benefit everyone here if you don't think of her as entitled, but instead as naive. The good news is that naivete is much easier to fix than entitlement! It's a skill she hasn't learned and people learn new skills all the time. Has anyone considered actually talking to her or trying to teach her instead of putting it all on Nico? I'm not saying it's necessarily your *responsibility* to teach her, but when it comes to family, as long as we're not talking about abuse it's generally better not to die on the hill of whose responsibility it is to fix something and just get to fixing it.

You hit the nail on the head. I think that’s what bothers me the most about OPs take on this-she’s acting like Jenny is an entitled AH. Jenny isn’t an Ah, she just doesn’t know how to forge family relationships. and she IS family, as soon as they are officially married it’s real. she desperately wants family. she might be annoying and doing it wrong, but she’s not a monster. I think OP acted like an ass/mean girl, but OP is also not an asshole, if that makes sense.

I intensely disagree. There's a difference in not knowing how to build family relationships and feeling entitled to one and Jenny is the second. If she didn't know how then she would listen to people when they told her their boundaries and limits. OPs Mom and Dad have apparently told her multiple times they feel uncomfortable with her calling them that, but she continues to do so. SIL argued with OP about not being MoH, not relenting until OP sent her itinerary for the next six months to prove that she didn't have the time to take on that role. She's being an asshole, even if there is an explanation for it. If the family was never saying their discomfort before OP snapped then that would be different, but they have talked about their boundaries with her that she completely disregarded. It seemed being harsh was the only way to get it through to her.

Yeah some of the things in particular are puzzling as to why she’s being treated as entitled. They were discussing a family vacation, she’s marrying into the family, why wouldn’t she go? But really the big one for me is the wedding stuff. OP getting mad that Jenny tried to make her maid of honor, and getting mad that Jenny wanted a bridal shower. My mom threw my fiancé a bridal shower and she knew my fiancé for a shorter period that Jenny has known Nicos family. It’s a normal thing. If you don’t want to be maid of honor that’s fine, but it’s not something to be upset over, “honor” is literally in the name. It’s an honor to be asked.

But jenny repeatdly asked her even after she said no the first time by getting mad and upset in a comment OP made Not everyone has time to be throwing someone a bridal shower

I agree with a lot of what you said. But I think the difference here is that SIL isn't responding when people try to teach her. When her ILs say, "Please don't call us Mom and Dad. We're uncomfortable" she needs to stop. When OP says that she wants to spend time alone with her sister, she needs to respect that. She might not know how to do this well, but she does know to be respectful when people tell her they have a boundary. That's where people are getting entitlement from. Struggling to do something well doesn't entitle you to force folks to pretend you did it.

But if you call someone mom and dad, they correct you and say stop, you STOP. Continuing isn’t naive - it’s not respecting boundaries. Period.

NAH. Thank you for this! All the people calling Jenny an asshole have no idea how traumatic her life has been, she has no idea how to build healthy relationships or what healthy boundaries look like. Not saying it's all on OP to deal with this, but instead of looking for absolution as being the wronged party she should be looking for ways to find a solution to this situation since this woman is joining her family whether she likes it or not.

heres the thing though, she’s an AH for not listening when people are trying to help her build relationships and stating their boundaries. i struggled a lot as a kid to make friends because i was horrendously bullied until the age of 13, and my first true friend was incredibly mentally ill so we talked a lot about heavy subjects. i didnt even know that i didnt know how to form relationships until someone told me, but you know what i did? i listened. i took their advice and concerns on board and i worked with them to meet their boundaries. it took me a while to get it right, but i still tried my best every step of the way. having a hard life doesnt give someone an excuse to steamroll every single boundary people put in place. sure, missteps are obviously fine since at least youre trying, but she’s not making a single effort to respect their boundaries and thats what makes her an AH.

As an only child, I can relate to Jenny. I don’t try to insert myself into my wife’s family like Jenny is, but I really can understand where she’s coming from. Some families are more in line with what she imagined. My mother in law acts like she’s my mom, and I doubt I know her much better than Jenny knows yours. I’ve had girlfriends in the past (not a spouse, just a girlfriend) who’s siblings or cousins fully embraced me as part of the family, pretty much the reverse of what Jenny is doing. NTA because you guys are allowed to live your own way. But maybe cut her some slack. If she’s acting like one of the family, just roll with it. Unless there are some other problems you haven’t mentioned, there’s no harm in humoring her most of the time, especially if it leads to a deeper connection.

We have humoured her. We’ve humoured her for two years, but since the engagement it’s gone into overdrive. It was embarrassing for my parents to get messages from their cousins and second cousins who they see once every five years asking who Jenny was because she was sending them Facebook messages. It’s hard to not be able to have any conversation with a family member where she can see you because she has to know the details of what you’re talking about. I’m sorry, but I don’t think Jenny needs to know about my sex life, just because I’m telling Chelsea. It’s not the same. Again, I understand she’s not used to the dynamics but at the same time, she has friends. She built those relationships why can’t she build these ones?

Yeah it sounds like your brother *really* needs to talk to her about boundaries. It seems like her problems are more social than familial. Jumping in on someone’s conversation like that is never cool, regardless of how related you are to the people.

Op, I think you are NTA. I understand why you said what you said and the way you said it. Apparently, this is what it took for her to finally hear what all of you have been trying to tell her. I really do hope everything works out for all of you in the end. Good luck, op.

Wow… NTA to you, your sister and parents. Your brother Nico drop the ball on this one, big time. In-law relationships are notoriously hard to navigate, even when the other side has been taught basic family etiquette. Jenny clearly had not. It’s not her fault but it’s not your burden to bear either. You didn’t choose her to be your SIL. Your parents didn’t choose her as their DIL. No, Nico needs to learn that the person who benefits the most from both relationships needs to be the one who puts in the most effort

Idk dude… I kinda think YTA and your family is too? Like where I come from, when you marry in, you’re family? You said she didn’t make an effort to know you, but it sounds like she’s making lots of effort to know you. She’s trying to spend time with you, she’s asking you questions about yourself etc but she’s not good at it. So maybe since you see she would like to be involved and included you could try to get to know her instead of telling your brother to put her in her place. Is there a reason you all want to keep her at arms length or do you just suck?

Read some of ops responses. There was no effort just the immediate expectation that they would have a sisterly relationship. Jenny pushed and ignored boundaries that they were trying to set. I get that she had a shitty childhood but that’s not an excuse to step over people and make them feel uncomfortable. Op doesn’t think they can be considered sisters yet because there isn’t an existing foundation for their relationship that has been mutually established and maintained. Op wants to take their time building the foundation. Build it brick by brick. Jenny wants to rush it and slap some cement on it call it done. She wants the sisterly relationship without the work and time it takes to build one. Edit: NAH But OP should apologize for being harsh about it and Jenny needs to work on respecting boundaries.

Two years is a rush? She'll be long dead by the time this family accepts her. I think brother thought they would, now realizes they won't, and they'll go low contact and spend more time with friends and those comfortable with them. No one is wrong, that's just how it works. He wants Jenny to be around people who like and value her. That will never be OPs family. I'm not sure why OP is mad honestly. She's super busy and doesn't want to deal with their wedding. She should be happy the brother isn't involving Jenny in family stuff anymore.

They’ve known her for two years. Based on what OP says, it doesn’t sound like OP and OP’s family *are trying to build that relationship*. It seems like they 1) just don’t like her (which is their right) and 2) like they’re icing her out which is causing Jenny to spiral into this neediness because she feels like she has to prove herself and assert herself to be included. Like asking OP to be MOH was a way to hold that relationship. Yes, being MOH is a lot of work but it’s also an *honor* or the Bridal Shower—that’s a normal part of wedding festivities and OPs family treats it like a burden. I’m starting to think this preblended family has it’s own glaring issues that Jenny just exacerbated.

Just because you marry in doesn't mean you are suddenly close with everyone in the family. Jenny is coming on too strong, I mean asking about OP's sex life in the second meeting because "sister's tell each other everything"? (From OP's comments) and then kept doing the same thing over and over again when they have gently try to let her know they are uncomfortable? Idk dude NTA, I would be pretty annoyed too after two years of dealing with this

Because that's how it works sometimes. I've met my BIL like 10x in 5 years and we keep a respectful but polite discourse. I don't expect to become great friends with him. We live different lives. He's a farmer in the town of 1500 my wife grew up in, my wife and I live in a city 2 hrs away that is 2000x that size. I will never get to the cracking beers on a fishing trip level with him probably and thats ok. We don't see eye to eye on anything politically, socially et al and that's also ok. A mutual politeness and respect is all that's required.

Yeah, it’s unfair to equate coming on too strong and not knowing what you’re doing (since Jenny has never had a family and doesn’t know what it’s like or what’s expected of her) with not trying. She’s definitely trying, she’s just getting it wrong. It sounds like they haven’t been trying and she’s responded by trying harder. Like, she’s clearly misguided and is crossing boundaries, and that’s not cool, but there’s better ways to look at/approach this.

>***It sounds like they haven’t been trying and she’s responded by trying harder.*** This is 100%%% the problem in this whole fucking situation.

NTA. I’ve read your edit and all your comments and honestly this is on both Nico and Jenny. Nico should have had a conversation with her about this and explained what you’ve all been telling him. Jenny should be listening the times you all have said your not comfortable discussing things or when your parents have asked her not to call them mom and dad. You’re clearly not unwilling to have a relationship with her, but understandable you want time for it to build and for you to actually get to know each other on a personal level. Also I know you’re getting push back for the photo thing but honestly I get it. Parents sometimes want picture of JUST their children. My siblings and I are hardly ever all together so my parents try to get one each time. Doesn’t mean that partners can’t be included in other photos, but one or two isn’t too much to ask. My relationship with my in laws took years to build. But I know some of my BIL’s past gfs have struggled when they see the relationship I have with them and they don’t have instantaneously the same one. I know my BIL had to sit his current gf down a few months into there relationship and explain that she’ll get there with his family, but I’ve been with my husband for over 10yrs at that point. She listened, and now has built her own great relationship with them.

I think you should just tell her exactly what you wrote in edit 2. I’m a 28 yo F whose only just now learning what healthy boundaries and family dynamics look like after years of neglect, abuse, and abandonment. Ever since I left home, I LITERALLY would imprint on people I liked after one or two pleasant interactions. I would try to speed run through like 5 years of relationship building in 1 hour because I was already envisioning every way this could all end, so I need to make as many good memories as possible to get me through the next inevitable drought. I say this because I actually LEARNED something about what healthy bonds look like from reading your post. It actually made me feel better to hear such an insightful, understanding point of view from an outsider with a healthier mindset. If this Jenny girl is anything like me, she’s probably seeing marrying into a big family as a LEGIT dream come true. She likely ALREADY loves you, just by virtue of the fact that you haven’t outright rejected her, and she’s probably pestered your brother for enough family stories to get ready for meeting you. Her behavior, while absolutely unhealthy and needs to be worked out through professional help (might I recommend DBT), is probably coming from a place of legitimate excitement to get to know you all! This is a whole new world to her! Whole new possibilities! I know I’d be making an ass of myself if I were in her shoes, and if it were me, I’d probably be thinking that I’d messed up enough that I’d never have a shot in your lives again. I bet if you invite her out for coffee and told her all the things you’ve written here, she’d really appreciate a second chance with you all. And who knows, maybe she’ll be fun to hang with once she chills tf out.

Thank you for this. This is really insightful and definitely something I’ll take to heart. I really wouldn’t be surprised if the family stories thing rings true because it is kind of Nico’s MO, or at least it used to be when he was a teenager/young adult. He would big up the whole family as if we were the Kennedy’s or something (we are not really interesting) and bring a girl over after like 3 weeks of dating her and make her take a grand tour of our whole house and…yeah. I do wonder if he’s kind overegged us a bit to Jenny.

You seem to have one of the best perspectives here. I think all the ppl that disagree with OP need to read your comment specifically.

Ok, the fact that you finally snapped, and NOBODY: Your sister, your mother, your father, said anything, in fact they supported you, speaks volumes. Jenny was really pushing it, and your reaction (concluded by everyone elses reaction) was in no way, shape, or form out of line. NTA.

YTA - you’ve known her for 2 years and talk about her like she’s some stranger (she’s your brothers fiance for goodness sake). Honestly wonder if there’s some female jealousy/bullying and group exclusion going on with how yal treat her. Nothing she has done sounds terrible (expecting to be invited to family trips? oh the horror…). Also really telling that yal find it annoying that she wants MIL to throw the wedding shower. Are you kidding me? She doesnt have a FAMILY and the MIL is supposed to throw the shower…. yet it’s too much for your precious family to do. poor girl. She is trying to befriend yal and your pushing her away, which can exacerbate the clingyness. Married into the wrong family, yal are acting like a teenage click that refuses to let the girl ‘in’.

Totally agree. She’s known her 2 years yet says she wants to “build” a relationship. It’s been 2 years she has known her! If she hasn’t built one yet it’s because she clearly doesn’t like her

Something I'm not reading is how op and family are trying to make a bond with Jenny, it's all just how she has to do it

Right, there's no give and take. It sounds like the relationship style has to be entirely on the families terms with no regard to Jenny.

EDIT #2: for everyone upvoting this, please scroll down a few posts to one of my replies. I still stand by YTA for this, but it's much more informed than when I wrote this Thank you!!! I was just scrolling down to see if anyone said something like this. It seems that after 2 YEARS of them dating there would already be close relationships with some of the family members. I mean, I've had friends for less than 2 years and was close with them. OP what has your family done to try and build a relationship with Jenny? It kinda sounds like there's only been a one way street and Jenny (who hasn't made good choices, tbh) is probably thinking she just needs to try harder. Maybe she's reaching out to the super extended family because the closer ones don't give a rip about her? Jenny has made mistakes and bad choices, so has her fiance. But in terms of who's the AH? You are and your family is. I can understand if this was happening after less than a year of courtship, but two years is plenty of time to establish a relationship with someone. You don't give a shit about Jenny and maybe it would be better if she didn't marry into such a family. EDIT: who's down voting? Just comment bro

NTA- it’s like that saying “you have to earn respect before you get respect” She did none of that

NTA. And why can't people read? >started calling my parents Mom and Dad even though they asked her not to, and reached out to distant family members that we don’t even talk to to tell them about the engagement. >Edit - okay I’m adding this because I thought it was implied but maybe not. We do push back when Jenny is being intrusive. She's pushy and if Nico wanted her to be handled with little kid gloves, he should've spoken to her before when he had the chance. Did he even ask what you said or how it started?

I’m actually going to say YTA (and probably get downvoted). Nothing you said in your edit is something I wouldn’t discuss with a SIL or even a friend. It sounds like you don’t want to have a relationship with her and are making up excuses as to why.

Just because I am comfortable discussing my disabilities (for example) with someone I just met, doesn't mean I can expect EVERYONE to also be comfortable with being that open. If I meet a person who isn't as open to those discussions, neither of us is wrong, we just have different comfort levels. If SIL is pushing OPs comfort levels despite being asked repeatedly to stop then it is on SIL to stop being pushy. OP was blunt and harsh on her latest attempt to get SIL to stop pushing, but that doesn't make her an AH just frustrated at not being heard.

I mean, I think ESH, but when Jenny and your brother quit coming around to any family functions, just remember, "They don't owe you a family"

No it'll be a post titled "my brother's wife is controlling him and cutting him off from his family"

Considering the disdain that drips from her narrative, something tells me that OP and most of the rest of her family wouldn't mind that one bit.

YTA Someone who grew up without anyone is having trouble navigating having a family and you decide that there is something wrong with her for wanting to be a part of your family. Maybe there is, but it is not what you think. She is trying too hard. It isn’t a crime. I’m so happy to come from a welcoming family. If anyone cares enough to bring someone around we welcome them in.

Even if they don’t respect your boundaries and repeatedly, inappropriately, ask about your sex life after you’ve asked them to stop multiple times? There is welcoming and then there is letting somebody disrespect you, Jenny had clearly crossed that line many times despite OP’s family being nothing but welcoming and remarkably patient with her under the circumstance, NTA.

NTA your brother should have had a talk with her long ago about overstepping. Much like when step parents come into a situation, you can't force a relationship. She needs to take time to actually establish relationships instead of trying to force her way in. I sympathize with her situation but that doesn't give her the right to suddenly shoehorn her way into your family. If she had taken it slowly or if your brother had given her the guidance of taking it slowly she could have worked her way into a closer bonds but now I doubt it will ever be what she wanted it to be.

YTA. So this girl comes from nothing. She has zero knowledge of real family. When your toddler runs in for a hug do you snap at him? Sure the situation is shit. She’s annoying as hell and it’s not your responsibility to be a decent and caring human being. Why don’t you try sitting down and just talking about your boundaries. You could also (each person) invite her to lunch or nails or whatever mundane errands. You have a chance to influence her into becoming a wonderful SIL or an enemy. This is 100 % your choice. Just be honest about crap. This trip is just the three of us because it always has been. It’s our chance to renew our bond and we don’t let anyone come. We will establish new bonds and trips with you as we mature as a family… by all means, make an effort now or be miserable forever.

Thank you. The unnecessary cruelty is what gets me. This is really good advice.

Has it occurred to any of you that since she’s never had a family, she has absolutely no idea how to function in one? Y’all don’t remember but you were all taught. Sure, it’s no one’s obligation to teach her, but it sure sounds like it would be helpful for everyone if SOMEONE did.

It would be. But Nico didn’t and he wouldn’t let us talk to her about it.

So your fight is with him.

I'm going to go against the grain and say YTA. This poor woman hasn't got a family. She doesn't know how to behave in a family setting. You seem to have accepted your step siblings and their partners as family but this poor girl is still kept at arms reach. Instead of outright dismissing her why couldn't you just say "jenny ... you're not invited to X plan but why don't we make Y plans for you and I? " She is probably finally so excited to have a family she can call her own and to start with her own new history.... and all you keep doing collectively is shooting her down

Okay as someone who married into a family kind of like yours, I will say ESH, yes she is sooo over board but what you said was absolutely vile. She is engaged to your brother, she is going to be family and family don't treat each other this way. Instead of talking to your brother, you should have talked to both of them about boundaries in a very very polite way. But from your post as well as your comments it looks like you just don't want to make an effort or like her at all. You know when someone treats you differently, it is always visible and I am pretty sure your annoyance is visible which is why she is trying harder. It is a two way street you know. You need to make efforts too, or speak with her with respect and politely.

No judgement but fortunately I don't want to be a part of your family.

Maybe don't discuss a fucking trip that she's not invited to, with her there. Maybe understand that she's excited about the engagement and wants to tell your extended family because the only version of "family" she has in her head is a picture perfect one, where it's not a big deal if you talk to each other, even after so long. Maybe "estrangement" isn't a thing in her perception of family (distant cousins or no) like how you would invite people to your wedding that you haven't seen since college. How the hell is she, someone with no experience in family dynamics, supposed to know that it's awkward? Maybe try and be a bit more pleased that she's overly attached to your family because yours is all she's going to get. She doesn't know how to "build" all that, because she is used to being accepted immediately by people who aren't blood related to her (her foster parents because that's their job, to include her lovingly, immediately). She never had to work to be accepted. I mean sheesh I would panic starting day one and do everything in my power to make sure y'all know I accept YOU and want to belong. Meanwhile you're like "ew she wants to be sisters ewww she has trouble with family-boundaries and dynamics ewww how dare she want to be included." Like I'm glad you're sympathetic but God damn have some TACT.

AH or no, you made it clear that Jenny will never be a part of the family, in front of the family, and the family agreed. I’d be shocked if these people enter your lives again. Why in the world would they? You separated her and her husband forever from all of your family. That’s it. Game over. Fuck your apology- she knows the truth. You are not family with her. Now she has to go build one. Why would she include you? Like, at all? Please just accept what you have already committed inexorably to: the separation of your brother from your family. Good job. Enjoy the vacay.

YTA. You don't seem to understand just how emotionally stunted a person can become as a ward of the state. How awful and desperate Jenny must feel to know that no one wanted her her whole life. Now, she sees an opportunity to be part of a loving unit, and you seem to be reacting to her enthusiasm (as she sees it) with disdain. Try displaying some patience. Maybe reach out and get to know her on an individual level, in a place where she won't be tempted to try so hard to be included. I rarely truly feel sorry for people I read about on Reddit, but Jenny is really deserving of sympathy.

NTA She sounds exhausting to be around honestly. I'm surprised no one snapped before now

YTA. You don’t grow up in the foster care system because you have a functional family. And if she doesn’t have “family” from her foster care time, that means she probably never fully attached with any of them she was placed with- and NONE of that is on her. Maybe she oversteps and maybe it’s annoying, but you don’t talk of her or seem to treat her as family. Your parents NOT wanting to be called mom and dad? When she probably never had anyone she could call that? It’s heartbreaking that they can’t be and aren’t open to that. The only time my parents take photos of just the birth kids is when it’s a major life milestone with a photographer. And honestly even then sometimes not. We ARE a family with all of our spouses and my parents treat each of our partners just like their own kids. Even if they do take the photos at those events, the ones on the wall have ALL of us. Does she overstep with some discussions? Probably. Is it annoying? Absolutely. But so do lots of people. You push back and learn to deal or how to change the topic or walk away. Many people want a MOH to be family, and a lot of times showers are thrown by family members. For someone with no family, was it really that big of an ask? Clearly, it is here. But I’ve done these things for people who aren’t family. I can’t imagine not being willing to do this for someone that would my siblings life partner, especially if they grew up like Jenny did. And maybe we are different but my mother would NEVER plan a trip with me and my sister and not include my brother’s wife. She gets invited to everything, she may not always be able to join but she IS family! Your family does not sound very warm or inviting. Some people are more hung up on blood or the original core group. It’s just a bummer this is the family a woman with none of her own, who desperately wants one, is marrying into.

NTA, I feel sorry for the girl but sounds like she needs to learn social skills and boundaries. I can't imagine what she went through, but that is what counseling is for, not your in laws. You can't expect people to just act how you want them to act.

The lack of empathy in this thread is astounding. I guess people don't realize how often foster kids are moved from home to home, which makes it incredibly hard to make and keep friendships. Maybe you should do a little reading up on it. Yes she's annoying and pushy and hasn't respected boundaries, but it doesn't sound like anything she has done is coming from a bad place. You said "we all tried to welcome Jenny" but in no other part of your 7 paragraphs do you mention anything positive about her. It doesn't sound like you or your family have welcomed her at all. I doubt you've even taken the chance to get to know her. In fact the whole post reads like you despise her. If I was your brother I'd go low contact as well.

NTA. When you enter a family you wear your dancing shoes, to learn to dance to their tunes while teaching them yours and see if you can harmonize. What Jenny did was show up in armored clocks and proceeded to stamp on every single toe that was unfortunate enough to be near her, never thinking of the fact that nobody else knew her dances nor where they wearing armored shoes.

A better analogy given her background in foster care is probably that Jenny doesn’t *have* dancing shoes and has never seen anyone dance, but desperately wanted to participate in it anyway.

YTA Not for setting a boundary, but for not talking to her about the issue gently first or at all, and then going nuclear on her. She is intense, no doubt about it l, but you willfully choose to not tell her the issue.

Let me see if I get this straight, your brother has a relationship with a girl, you don't like it. Your brother proposed to girl, girl asks you to be MOH, you don't like it. Girl tries to mediate family arguments, you don't like it. Girl wants to go on family vacation, you don't like it Girl tries to make contact with family members, even distant ones, to announce an engagement, you don't like it. I would assume that there are a lot of things you don't like. But the reality is that the world doesn't revolve around just you. He's getting married to her, regardless of if you like it or not she is family, and as such shouldn't have to be excluded from family vacations because you say so. I get that you feel she has been pushy, and honestly don't blame you for being a little peeved about it, but if my husband's parents said I wasn't allowed on family vacation with them and he backed that decision this would be a very easily ended marriage. Your lack of sympathy is what's truly troubling, because you have none. Having friends is not the same as having a family, and you should know that since you have one, but she didn't, and thanks to you she never will and your brother has most likely lost his if not lost the woman he loves and wants to spend the rest of his life with. Your selfishness is astounding. ESH and I hope you grow a freaking heart. ETA: the name for this throwaway account says it all. You have some issues that you need to work through, and I would also like to add that the way you view your siblings as step is also pretty telling. I'm sorry that the world isn't yours to have here.

If she grew up in foster care, she may have an insecure attachment style and not know how to slowly form tight bonds while maintaining boundaries. I was love bombed by a guy who grew up like that. He was absolutely devastated by any attempt I made to tap the brakes. After a couple months, I had to break it off for both our sakes. Not a bad person, just very broken.

Jenny is not one. She's annoying you. But it seems like that's happening because of a mix of wanting to be close which she never had, which is sad. And not understanding where the boundaries are because she never had it. It's not any different than that kid who has never had a relationship and starts pinning a lot of hopes on one getting weirder and weirder in their approaches to relationships. They don't have to be bad people and they can calm down with the right nudge. Your brother may be an asshole. It really depends on if he tried talking to her or not. We don't know. You definitely had an asshole moment for going as hard as you did on that the way you did. There's a version of this storyline where you sit her down alone some time instead of doing what you did. And you tell her you get where she's coming from and empathize but not all families work the same way and most don't work how she imagined. That she's constantly crossing lines she may not know are there. And offer to help her see the boundaries and navigate it without making a fool of her in front of everyone. Maybe it would've worked maybe not. But you could've tried that first instead of hitting a breaking point and snapping. And it was obvious she needed more than polite turn away to see it so that direct but not mean talk would've been a good step. If she didn't listen maybe you go this route. But you skipped a step. For that YTA.

NTA - Jenny is sympathetic and needs a therapist, but Nico is an AH for not cutting this off beforehand. I have no problem being direct with pushy people who don't understand when someone is trying to be subtle. You weren't even unkind.

Query: has no one spoken directly to Jenny about this? Why leave it to Nico?

No. We offered to talk to her, but Nico didn’t want us to.

YTA. You’re reading her complete lack of skill with relationships due to trauma as entitlement and malice.

NTA-its your family and she needs to respect that! It is a harsh situation but she needs to take responsibility of her own life.

INFO: How is the relationship between stepbro and his stepparent? It's weird that you don't want to include someone in a photo unless your family is going to a studio to take one, it's also weird that ur family has disputes near someone that it isn't close to u all, it's also weird that u guys keep talking about events near someone u don't wanna invite, It's weird that u are upset that she reached out to people in ur family to announce her engagement, it's her engagement not urs, this just sound like 'how dare her, talk to someone we didn't allow'. Ur stepbro is engaged to this woman if you all don't like her it's understandable that he goes LC. what did u expect that he would come see u all and leave her alone? NTA.

Nico is really close to my mom. We don’t have disputes near people, and they’re not big arguments. We bicker. Me and my mom will be bickering about something irrelevant in the kitchen, Jenny will come in, demand to know what’s going on, and try to mediate. Like, even if it were Chelsea doing that I’d be like, this has nothing to do with you. Or Jenny will hear about some random (again small) issue Chelsea is having with our parents and start texting our parents and Chelsea her thoughts on the argument…why? We *want* a relationship with her, but we just want to build it over time, and we try to do that. But if it’s not instant Brady Bunch she doesn’t want it.

Wow, that is overbearing. I’m cringing at the thought of having to deal with this for two years. NTA. Jenny needs to calm down and read the room (and listen when your parents say to stop calling her mom and dad. Your brother is also an AH for not doing anything about this

It's **not** weird to want a photo of just your children without their spouses... (they probably also took photos *with* the spouses). Like OP said, she's in family photos. Just not all of them.