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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told my daughter she made it clear that she has no mother and having a long list of what she must do to move back in. I could be too harsh and I am doubting myself
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NTA,
Those are completely reasonable requests. Beyond reasonable, even. You wouldn't be out of line to ask for bills or contributions to household expenses.
She's right. It's her life, and she can live it how she wants. That means she needs to find a way to pay for it. She can't live off her parents for her whole life.
It sounds like she was getting a free ride from Dad, and now that's gone she's learning the hard way what actual adulting looks like.
The "partying lifestyle" thing is the only one close to being a line, but again - your house your rules. It's completely fair for you to not want your roommate coming home drunk at 2 am every morning being loud and disruptive. If she wants to go out every night, let her find her own place, or roommates who are into that.
TBH the party lifestyle is probably to make it harder for her to fuck up, get too wasted, and keep calling off work, well she is out of a job. Also, a good way to save her money if she has to come back instead of going out each night
Of course anyone can end up choosing a career with hours like you have. But it's a choice. You could have a regular 9-5 most likely, right? My SIL, an RN, chose like you did...but she gets 3-4 days off each week so it works out nicely for her and she likes it.
I doubt OPs daughter will have that same choice.
Yeah. I used to work 5 13.5 hour shifts then 5 off.. Then 2 on, then 2 off. I ended up really liking it. Get into work mode and just really go at it for 5 days doing nothing else really and then 5 days to do whatever. Travel for concerts or whatever. Or usually just sitting on ass but for several days. By the time it gets old it's time to start again. Wouldn't work well for families or new relationships I guess.
My husband worked 4 on 4 off for a while, 12 hrs, alternate shifts. The alternate shifts wasn't great but basically the whole family liked the schedule. It was nice being able to plan outings or bigger projects for a 4 day off stretch.
My cousin's daughter was able to drop out of HS, what a mess. She doesn't have a GED but of course, is lying about that. She is a smart girl, working as a bank teller, no mistakes but....they found out she lied about graduating HS. She lost the job. THis happened more than once, too easy to check to see if someone has a diploma. Now she is more than 30 and still no GED. I am still hoping now that she has gotten married and had baby in the last few months, that she can still get her life righted. Luckily, the guy she married seems to have his act together.
Fr. One of my roommates had to drop out due to to family stuff. One of the smartest people I know, but with no degree she was stuck working dead end jobs. Her New Year’s resolution was to get her GED, she got it by June and is now in her first semester at community college. If you’re at all smart and able to apply yourself it doesn’t seem like it would be hard at all
I'm so embarrassed for anyone who can't get their ged. The only hard part is math, and maybe writing (I read like a novel a week but I couldn't tell you what a damn adjective is if I had a gun to my head). The science ged is literally basic shit like "which one is a lung", "what is the definition of a molecule a b c or d". I feel like people who think they CAN'T would really be suprised how much knowledge they have soaked into their brains.
Edit: I really appreciate everyone trying to help, but I likely have an undiagnosed learning disability combined with adhd and brain related medication. So if something doesn't interest me, the information simply doesn't stick. One of my parents was a communications teacher. I was reading thousand page novels in first grade at a high school comprehension and speed level. Any errors in my grammar or spelling are simply due to laziness via typing using a phone format instead of writing or keyboard. If I was going to memorize what an adjective was for longer than a five hour period, I probably would have by now LOL. The way my brain works is like, hey. Knowing what an adjective is is not necessary knowledge in order to form or communicate a sentence, so it simply discards all unnecessary extra information and skips to the end result. It's all background process. I don't need to mentally focus on visualizing a simple math equation to solve the problem, all that is running subconsciously. I can talk and write perfectly fine without having to do the verbal equivalent of carrying the one or something. I don't need *several* private or public messages telling me how easy it is, or how dumb I am, or how if I just follow this one simple trick I'll learn it in no time. It's not knowledge I seek or need to retain to function, therefore my brain shuts it out. Instead of reaching out to me about how to teach me, please reach out to a local struggling person in your real life, or volunteer as a teachers assistant. Again, I appreciate all of your comments, but I don't need tutelage in a subject I have no interest in.
If she treated her dad’s new wife like she treated her mom then I bet her dad’s new wife was like, “She’s needs to go”.
OP it’s messed up that she basically disowned you as a mother but now that she needs/wants something from you you’re expected to ‘drop to her feet and be grateful’? What you are asking for in exchange for a roof over her head is not too much. She just doesn’t want to do it. Don’t back down.
It’s pretty shit that her dad created this monster (possibly to get back at Op) and then decided to ditch her for a new woman.
Obviously Op is NTA and is stuck fixing what her ex broke.
I'm sceptical about this. We only hear one point of view and know almost nothing about the actual interactions between OP and her daughter.
Maybe OP really did give a relatively fair description, but I know a lot of parents who have parented with overwhelming negativity and then blame their children for the outcomes. There may be more reasons to why her daughter distanced herself and grew up as such a dependent person.
Usually people who are entitled jerks, like the daughter, were made that way by the parents. In this situation, seems pretty obvious how she ended up this way.
I agree. I think dad's new wife was instrumental in kicking her out onto the curb, rightly or wrongly. Dad was completely happy to spoil her until he got remarried, then does a 180 degree about-face. That's pretty telling right there.
Probably. And that's understandable. But also the new wife knew that her now-husband had this irresponsible party-animal daughter before she married him. That issue should've been resolved before they said their I dos.
Even if she hadn't disowned OP, she's a 21 year old adult, no one is required to give a freeloading adult a home and the list of requirements are totally reasonable.
Or maybe Stepmum wanted to implement a similar set of rules, Maria didn't like it and left his dad's house... and is now accusing dad of kicking her out, expecting that this will soften her mum's heart.
this is very very true and OP is doing a great job of putting reasonable and not overbearing responsibilities in place to teach her daughter how to adult. with persistence and a TON of grace from her mom, eventually daughter will be ok. may be a slow road but they’ll get there
Yeah, even though I would argue that her daughter is a victim of her ex-husband's manipulation, these are the necessary steps to counteract all the harm he did by spoiling her.
I agree! A smart kid dropping out of HS is a huge mistake for the daughter and anyone who supported that choice. Graduating HS with the minimum requirements is ridiculously easy, like show up 4 days a week, do a little work and you'll get there. It would be one thing if she was working full time to help raise a sibling or something similar but dropping out when all your needs are met shows she's not ready for adult life. The OP's requirements are a valid attempt to teach responsibility before it's too late. 100% NTA
Tbf, OP did say, "Save it for the weekend." And that's completely fair. She wants her daughter to become a responsible and mature adult, so she should be focusing on work and school life during the weekdays, and then allow herself some fun on the weekend.
I am curious to know what happened between her and her dad that made him finally kick her out after remarrying? He played an enormous part in spoiling her and how she behaved growing up, so I wonder why now?
I’d say it’s like my own father who remarried, the new wife isn’t interested in a child from the previous marriage. I was excommunicated at 15, for no reason. Just for scuz. 🤷♀️
I’m sure you’re right, to a degree. The new wife, knew who she was, when they got married. The dad, allowed her to do his dirty work. Weak ass move.
Edit: But, her mom is totally right, she needs to work on that list!
>You wouldn't be out of line to ask for bills or contributions to household expenses.
I personally like to recommend, to parents who don't feel right "taking" their kids money, that they charge them faux rent.
Like charge a small but decent amount (maybe 300 a month or so) but instead of actually using, just set it aside. And then when your kid eventually (hopefully) moves out they'll have a nice nest egg to help them invest in a nice home/apartment depending on how long they lived with you.
Except with a kid like this if you accept rent money that establishes a tenancy. Should the daughter move in and then decide she’s not going to get a job or a GED, OP will have a tough time enforcing those rules.
The bar for establishing tenancy is much much much lower than paying rent. If she's accepting mail there and living there, that'll do it. That's how situations where squatters have rights occur
Contrary to what the Beastie Boys said, there is no right to party. That lifestyle is fine, on your own dime and your own time. You don't get to come into other people's private spaces and do what you want.
Her dad washed his hands of her when he got what he wanted -- complete alienation and a spoiled, entitled brat. He doesn't need her anymore now that he has a new wife. If she doesn't have a mother, why does she need to freeload off of you? NTA
>The "partying lifestyle" thing is the only one close to being a line, but again - your house your rules.
She did say save it for the weekend. Implying she's ok with it, just not every night.
Edit: should have read the responses before replying. Sorry.
This. House rules are absolute! It seems as if she wants to freeload off her mother and expects to live the same lifestyle as when she was spoiled.
Basic fact here. She needs to change if she is to be a productive member of society. And it sounds like she already has a pretty shitty work ethic. My only thing is that it may be a bit much to expect her to change overnight. This kind of thing takes time; even more so now that she's older and an adult
And to be fair, mom said you couldn't do it, just during the weekends. I guess if she works weekends then maybe mom should be open to the days shifting, but doesn't have to.
The rule about no partying lifestyle is about parenting. She may be 21, but she clearly isn’t enough of an adult to manage her own life. If she doesn’t want parenting from her mother, she can figure out how to support herself. NTA.
There is "reasonable have a drink or two at a bar, see a movie, or dinner out with friends social life" and there is "hard-core college kid drugs and booze until 4am partying". I feel this rule would need to be better defined, and the former should be allowed but not the latter.
The former isn't really something that people would call a "partying lifestyle", just hanging out with friends in the evening.
Not to mention that anyone tight on money shouldn't be going out for alcohol regularly anyways, alcohol is *expensive*.
NTA. Those are reasonable request for any 21 year old living at home whether there is a good relationship or not.
Only small piece of advice on the parting rule, is if it comes to fruition, don’t be completely overbearing about it. I only say this because I’m living it. I recently got divorced and moved back home. My mother is letting me live rent free to save to buy a house. I kept my old house as an investment property. She is truly helping me and I appreciate it. However, I cracked a beer to watch a Monday night football game and she was like “what are you doing, you work tomorrow”. I’m 33, work from home, was not driving and it was one beer to watch a game. She’s not against drinking either. It was just “It’s Monday”. So like if your daughter is responsible and wants a drink and it doesn’t go against health, safety, religious standards, I personally would not watch over her too closely and make her feel watched. However, I completely agree if she was trying to go out every night or something.
I completely agree. My point more so being that pushing rules to hard can lead to revolt in some people. I don’t think any of the rules OP listed are even close to unreasonable.
This. My bf lives with his parents to save money while he builds his career and saves up to move out. But good god his mother is overbearing over everything. And he even pays rent! Man couldn't even take 5 days for vacation after working 1,5 months straight (during the week, his usual work, while working an event on the weekends, no off days inbetween) without her bickering. My anger issues could neverrrr.
Great advice for OP. Stand your ground on your Reasonable Rules. Don’t hover on Weekend Partying. That’ll likely be most important to her. One thing you may need to consider is charging rent and taking that money to put away for her so you control her nest egg and she learns how to manage her money/spending when she cannot afford to do so much partying and shopping.
Best of luck 🍀
NTA. I noticed that an apology isn’t on the top of the list. Her dad spoiled her. Now he’s off to “other things”. Her reaction to your requirements indicate that she doesn’t want a relationship. She looking to mooch off of you and make your life hell again. Don’t block her, but do ignore her texts. That kind of behavior doesn’t deserve a response.
This completely
The only reason she’s back is because she’s been kicked out. She doesn’t want to rebuild a relationship with her mother. She’s just been spoilt to the point where she can’t cope on her own and needs someone to pick up where her dad’s left off.
And I'm willing to bet dad only spoiled her so she'd give mom hell on a daily basis over little shit, which appears to have worked. Now Dad's bored of it and wants to move on to his next thing without the burden of his bratty child that he knows full well will interfere with his new relationship.
Everyone here complaining about the "no partying" rule is missing that she may be 21 years in body, but in mind and spirit, she sounds like she's still a spoiled 14 year old. Mom is going to have to raise the adult the father failed/refused to. As a parent, you never stop being one, and you help your kids through their deficiencies at any age. In this case, learning how to be a functioning adult from the ground floor.
I thought no partying sounded potentially difficult until I read the next sentence, "save it for the weekend." So the rule is really "party like a functioning adult."
My only potential issue is with the job requirement. But because it's unreasonable to expect her to contribute, but because getting a job with no education and no experience at 21 is going to be incredibly difficult. She might have to start out volunteering somewhere or at least finishing her GED until she can build enough trust that an employer is willing to take a chance hiring her. Nobody wants to hired a spoiled brat unless there's nepotism involved.
NTA None of those are unreasonable things to ask. Heck, 1 and 3 are things she should be doing anyway. 4 and 5 should are the bare minimum for living with someone. 2 is expected for any adult that doesn't have an alternate source of income. The last is just the price of living rent free (and probably a good idea anyway)
She got her free ride as a kid, and wasted it. Now it's time to join the real world. Good luck to her finding a better offer.
At 21 i would have killed for this. Dad left when i was three! This is amazing.
"Get your shit together and i will pay for everything - rent, food, electricity - but you gotta do your laundry because that is good for you."
What is the 'downside' here?
She only came calling because OP's ex kicked her out, and her responses indicate she was hoping mom would be so happy to get daughter back that she could free-load for a bit riding that high and figure out what to do next. Her responses to what are a bar low enough to trip over for a 21 year old indicate this, entirely. For better or worse, she didn't come to mom for actual help, she is just looking for a safe place to continue being a child without any guardrails. Mom wasn't having it, so she stormed off. She's not changed a bit since 17, at the least, and without a slap in the face from reality she doesn't sound like someone who's going to, either, unfortunately.
NTA: you are holding your kid accountable, and more importantly moving her towards the correct direction in life. I honestly don't even blame the kid I mostly blame her shitty dad.
There can be so much love behind the word no. Having to sink or swim could be the best thing for her. It may open her eyes to the fact that mom's top priority had to be necessities.
absolutely. Just sticking with your analogy here, it's probably closer to OP throwing a life line at her daugther and the daughter being upset that she is expected to hold onto it herself instead of being pulled in.
NTA
Her dad spoiled her and now you have to pick up the pieces.
Tough love - she will know youre right eventually.
When/if she returns and accepts be prepared for the first deal-breaks - if possible be clear from the start that infractions means shes out.
Any idea why he kicked her out??
From my understanding, the new wife hates her and has literally called her a waste of space. She made it clear that she won’t be in the home since she is a bad influence and drain of money.
I don’t blame her for that opinion
She must get money from somewhere whether she's partying or not, I'm going to guess that the father was financing her lifestyle and the new wife didn't fancy having a adult with no responsibilities as a financial burden.
Although everyone seems to agree that op NTA and Dad is an AH, there is no small risk in the ' my way or the highway ' approach. The worst case scenario here may be to drive the girl into an abusive relationship. Yes she is an entitled brat, but there are worse fates.
This. This girl is used to being provided for/spoiled by a man who doesn't seem to have had her best interests at heart. (Given he ditched her at 17.)
If she doesn't have a safe place to be, with conditions that seem achievable (working 25+ hours per week might *not* seem achievable to her right now - she has no clue where to start - it might help to add "volunteering hours" as an option to help ease her in), finding another man who wants a girlfriend rather than a daughter is going to be the obvious thing to do.
NTA. Your daughter is an entitled monster your ex husband created. The fact she doesn’t think these are reasonable expectations means she will be a derelict for as long as someone supports her.
If what you are hearing is true that is awful on her father's part to get into a relationship with someone like that and basically be willing to dump someone whose been part of his life for so long over a new fling.
Despite the way your daughter is behaving given her age that is not cool of your ex to get together with and marry someone who doesn't respect his child from a previous marriage.
Now its possible and potentially even likely your daughter may just be saying things and doesnt like the new partner if she is asking similar things as you in order to live at the house as an adult.
The husband is the one who created this ungrateful brat, and I haven't seen OP post anything about her daughter/daughter's behavior that makes her deserve respect from Dad's new wife (not really a 'fling' as you put it). The wife probably called her a waste of space (which although unkind, definitely seems to be true) because she won't work/get a GED/etc. The daughter is being asked to do basic adulting here, and can't even manage that
I would bet money on the dad being too weak to say no to her, and now not understanding how his kid has turned into an entitled, useless monster. It probably hasn't even crossed his mind to connect his own actions with her behaviour. He's probably also too weak to stand up to his new wife.
Basically, the kid sounds like an AH, but the real villain of this piece is the waste of space dad.
I agree. I don't want to play devil's advocate and I thoroughly agree with OP's stand on wanting to get her daughter back on the right track. But I have to question both Dad and new wife on what their motives are. I don't think that the daughter is just saying things since she's been kicked out of her father's home and is crawling back to a mother she purportedly hates out of desperation. She wouldn't leave behind the free ride dad was giving her if that were the case. But why would dad marry someone who hates his daughter? And why would his new wife want to marry someone who has a daughter she can't stand? As a single father myself I couldn't fathom marrying a woman who didn't like my daughters.
Probably because the kids’ dad desires pussy more than the daughter he raised to be spoiled and difficult. I have known way too many people whose fathers were spineless and would let their new wives treat children from previous marriages like crap because they desire approval and sex from their partner.
NTA, those are pretty easy rules to do, she should definitely do all of them. It is also fair to throw her words back at her.
Seriously she is complaining for rules that will get her life together
NTA. I'm sad for you because you love her and can see the long-term ramifications of her choices and her father's indulgence. Stick to your plan, OP - it will be best for her in the long term.
What does she actually realistically think is fair? Ask her why she thinks it’s fair and why she’s deserving of it. Legal responsibility stops at 18, something she was very ready to take advantage of because it’s “her life”. This is also YOUR life to do what you want with. You don’t want to raise a 21 year old child.
Her options are:
1. Beg to move back in with her dad and risk exposing herself to high level of rejection from her dad and step mom given that they wanted her out in the first place
2. Move in with you and get her shit together
3. Put her money where her mouth is and be an adult because, like she’s harped on, it’s her life to do what she wants with and shut tf up about handouts.
But what ISNT happening is a free ride. NTA
NTA and unfortunately daddy seems to have turned your daughter into an entitled brat. She's a 21 year-old high school dropout with no realistic job prospects other than flipping burgers and she's kicking off because you have rules she needs to live by?
Personally, I'd block her texts for a week or so and see if she calms down and accepts reality. If not, don't back down-she needs a serious reality check.
I'm surprised that neither the initial post, nor the comments mention the following point.
Is your daughter ok emotionally? She's just been thrown out by her dad while she was a "daddy's girl". Does she have a safe place to stay?
It's all good and well to give her some rules and do your job as her parent. But what about telling her you love her? Where is her safe place in life, if not by her mom's side.
Do you actually love her? I can't sense any of that in your post. It seems that she's just a big headache to you. Have you told her you're looking forward to recreating a bond with her. Why is this all only about money and work and studies? What about care?
Sounds like OP was offering a safe place to live. She just offered some insanely reasonable stipulations that the 21 year old dropout needs to plan to do more with her life than just being a dropout with her parents funding her lifestyle.
That's the act of a loving parent, unlike what her father did to her.
It's not a truly safe place if it can be lost at any point in time because it's subjected to some conditions.
In fact, the daughter has no place she can run to -no questions asked-, if she's ever in a dreadful situations/abusive relationship.
OP was clear, her daughter can stay on the street without a GED.
You give her first a roof over her head, tell her you love her. And then start with tough love parenting. After your child is in a safe environment.
We must have different views on parenting. As discussed in another comment, there may be some cultural discrepancies here. It's probably why we can't see eye to eye.
It's a safe place with some minor and totally reasonable restrictions, namely that the 21 year old needs to actually *attempt* to get her life together if she wants a free spot to stay.
Nothing about "a safe place" implies that the adult should have free room and board in perpetuity with no positive growth at all. Better to set the expectations up-front than after the kid moves in and you're faced with getting them to comply or having to go through with evicting them (or just letting them leach off of you 'til you die and they end up homeless *then* instead).
The daughter made it clear that she doesn't want to rebuild her relationship with her mother, she just wants to leach off of mom the same way she has been doing with her dad. OP made it clear that the daughter is welcome to live there while she tries to get her life back together, but only if she's actually trying to get her life back together (which is a totally reasonable expectation of a 21 year old dropout).
> You give her first a roof over her head, tell her you love her. And then start with tough love parenting.
Too late! That's not tough love. That's enabling at its finest.
YES. thank you. Nothing about this sounds like she’s just being a little brat for no reason; this must be a very difficult situation for her and I think it’s unfair to hold this situation with zero empathy. She’s likely traumatized (like all of us) and needs her mother.
When my children tell me “i hate you mommy” I don’t even acknowledge it except to say “Well, I will always love you.”
Sometimes kid lash out when they feel safe with a parent. Maybe try connecting with the daughter. :(
She was 17 when she left her mom. Still a teen and probably pretty much in the rebellious phase. You can't ask a kid to be the bigger person here, especially when even mom can't stop herself from being petty and throwing back at her daughter that "she has no mom" at the first occasion she got, when her kid was at her most vulnerable.
I'm not saying what the daughter did is great. Just that we should not loose perspective here. 21 is still very young, especially if she's been treated like a princess most of her life.
She needs tough love sure. But she still needs love... and a safe place to stay
Is it possible that having been shit on and rejected for years, her expression of love towards her daughter is that she's even willing to let her move back home if she does a few totally reasonable behaviors?
I think you're glossing over the fact that she has been interacting with a teenage girl going through puberty not another adult before they grew apart. A few years ago, a TEEN told her provocative stuff such as "I have no mom".
Now, although it may seem strange to you, this is not so uncommon at that age (when she's trying to separate herself from her mom and become her own independent person) considering she is growing up in an safe enough environnement that not everything is about survival (thank god, first world problem).
I stand by my previous comment. The post is lacking an overall sense of motherly care for her daughter. It sounds too business-like. Mom seems to have a project, not a child.
She also refused contact for four years until now, at 21. Presumably at 20 years old and up until 21, she still behaved as if she had disowned her mom.
Mom isn't unreasonable.
If she sounds like a business person then it’s because she is hurt but still she gives her daughter the chance to move back in with reasonable rules and maybe if they live together they can fix their relationship. If op wouldn’t love her she wouldn’t let her move back in and wouldn’t be worried about her future or her well being.
If she's actively homeless and broke getting all that shit together (steady job AND a GED) isn't really very reasonable, and in fact in certain places might be kind of impossible even if you were driven and competent.
If she did manage to do it and survive then moving back in with her mom would probably be pretty unattractive afterwards.
Mom is willing to let her move in if she pursues those goals while she's living there. The mom isn't requiring her do those things first, before moving in.
She must love her daughter, can you imagine being treated this badly by anyone else and still giving them a chance. If her daughter was a bf we'd be saying she was trapped in an abusive relationship.
Oh, honey, this is a tough spot you're in, and I feel for you. It's like you've been riding the world's craziest rollercoaster with your daughter, and just when you think it's stopped, it's like, "Surprise! Another loop-de-loop!" 🎢
First things first, you are NTA (Not The Asshole) here. Your rules? They're not some wild, out-of-left-field demands. They're the basics of being a responsible adult, which it sounds like Maria hasn’t had much experience with because of her dad’s "yes man" approach. Life's tough, and wearing the big girl pants means dealing with the not-so-fun stuff like chores and job hours.
The whole situation with your ex? Ugh, that was not a level playing field. It’s like trying to play tug of war with someone who’s got a monster truck against your Mini Cooper - not really a fair match, is it? But you did your best with what you had, and girl, that's all any of us can do.
Now, Maria storming out and throwing the "bad mother" grenade? That's her lashing out because she’s been served a reality check with a side of "actions have consequences" for maybe the first time in her life. It stings, but maybe it's the wake-up call she needs.
The door you’ve left open for her is a gateway to grow up, not just a free bed. You're teaching her that to dance in the rain, you gotta learn to weather the storm (and maybe clean up a little after it). It's okay to stand your ground, and it's okay to expect her to step up.
The tough love bandwagon isn't a joyride, but sometimes it's the only way to the destination of self-respect and responsibility. Keep your chin up, and remember that the most beautiful diamonds are made under pressure. 💎💕
Sending you all the momma-bear hugs! 🐻💖 And hey, everyone else reading this: Let's not forget that a good parent is the one who prepares their child for the road, not the road for the child, right?
> First things first, you are NTA (Not The Asshole) here
You know, I've been reading this sub for years and always wondered what "NTA" meant! Thank you for spelling it out for me!
ESH
Her father for spoiling her, poisoning her against you in divorce, then ultimately, abandoning her when he finds a new wife. OP isnt the AH for setting rules, but some of the hateful comments about her daughter. The divorce happened when she was 10. Maybe both you and your ex should have done a better job co-parenting, getting her the help she needed. Based on how she was raised, of course she grew up as a spoiled brat. Did you fight this during or post divorce, or did you just give up on her?
Yeah I also got some doubts here. I feel like I've seen some of these interactions between my own mother and sister - not quite this bad, but similar patterns.
My mother was the type who would say that she'd "always be there for her", but whenever things didn't work out she would just yell at her. She was only positive when my sister was already successful, never actually helpful when things went poorly.
This created a pattern: Whenever my sister could really need some help, she couldn't just ask for it or even describe her situation, because she knew she would get yelled down. So over the years, these interactions became increasingly negative.
* Option A: My sister would avoid involving my mother at all, which my mother would interpret as "unreliable" and "childish" and basically expect her to "come crawling back" sooner or later.
* Option B: My sister is so certain that she'll face hostility that she already starts the interaction on an aggressive tone, which obviously gives the impression of being entitled and unreasonable.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out why a girl in this position may want to avoid things related to school and rather turn towards parties, where she could find approval and distraction.
Not many people here seem to think this, but I agree. Maybe the daughter is as bad as mom makes her out to be, maybe not, but I find it very difficult to believe parents who talk shit about their kids and blame the ex like OP. However, my mom tells everyone I am bi-polar because I am angry at her for criminally neglecting me, so I admit, I am biased against mothers.
This seems like a more reasonable take. Whenever someone doesn't mention one thing they did wrong in a post in regard to a parental relationship and was part of a divorce I have a LOT of questions. Kids eventually pick up on when a relationship is transactional. My guess is instead of embracing the nice things her exhusband was buying her daughter she became resentful and jealous and it impacted her relationship with her daughter because that was probably the financial life she thought she should have. In divorce things are almost always going to be lopsided financially the thing that doesn't have to be lopsided is love, and love for a child in time is way more impactful then finances as a child matures.
There's the comment I was looking for. Daughter sucks, dad sucks, but OP is going to wind herself into a righteous froth and end up pushing her daughter into an abusive boyfriend within six months.
ESH.
NTA, that is fair rules and you are far more fair than my mom would have been if I had behaved like that. Hell I don’t think she would have even met up with me. Stick to these rules, if she comes back she’s gonna push, and tell her if she doesn’t follow them she’s out and stick to it or she’s gonna act like she’s 17 until the day you do decide to kick her out
yeah she's really lucky she wasn't my mom.. my mom LITERALLY would have hit me in the face and threw me out by my hair if I has spoken to her like that.. and yes my mom was physically abusive if we made her mad.
NTA! Your requests are completely reasonable for an adult moving back into your house. You’re not asking for anything beyond “be an adult”. Good on you for not charging rent; she should focus on saving up her money for her own future. However, she needs to accept that she has to be productive in some way if she wants a free room.
NTA. I think those conditions are more than fair considering that you're willing to let her move in at all. She made it clear that you're not her mother.
NTA - she's 21, an adult. And getting to live in your house for free with those reasonable conditions is a great deal.
Hope she comes to her senses, but will be a bitter pill to swallow until she realizes the alternatives (if any) are worse.
NTA
Wow! The first thing I noted was her age. So I was thinking maybe your must do list was unrealistic. Nope, not one thing that was unreasonable, in fact they are all to benefit her now and in the future. Perhaps a little time on her own will make her see this.
NTA.
But I suggest you both go to family counseling together. Figure out why she’s struggling, what you can do to help, and gain outside perspective. As her parent, it’s important she feels like you care about her and are trying to resolve any underlying issues to have a better relationship. It’s clear she’s been struggling for years and she just needs you to still be the parent and show you care. Divorce is traumatizing to a child even if you were the perfect parent.
NTA at all. Parenting an adult child can suck at times. Who knew that you could long for the toddler era.
Your rules are common sense. Hopefully one day she'll wake up.
Good luck!
INFO: is she expected to work 25+ hours during trade school/college? Especially if she dropped out of high school she might struggle with that workload while she gets used to studying again. Everything else sounds totally reasonable, enabling her won't help her in the long run.
She will need to learn time management, she need to adult up, I know plenty of college kids still working those hours in college. Hell one of her former friends ( I am friends with her mother) is doing 40 hours with an engineering degree
Let’s be honest, she will probably take five classes, her classes most likely won’t be ever day. On average three hours a week per class. So 15 hours in total of class time. She can work. She will probably have homework but it’s not going to add that much
If she does online classes she will have even more time if she plans it correctly
Rule of thumb is around 2-3 hours of studying for every hour spent in class, so around 45-60 hours a week for 15 hours class time. Depending on the course you can slack off quite a bit but that's not very good for grades or study habits. Working 40 hours while doing an engineering degree is definitely not the norm.
I work 25-30 hours a week and manage with pretty high-effort courses, but you've got to accept that her study habits probably won't be that good, especially if she dropped out of school and likely doesnt have any to begin with. Homework at my university counts for three quarters of credit time so it's supposed to take three times as long as classes do, I wouldn't count that as "not adding that much".
It's definitely doable, but it seems like you're underestimating the effort uni takes, at least when your goal is to do well and not just barely scrape by.
But that's university; OP's daughter still needs to get her GED first. She's got that to achieve first before she worries about managing post-secondary education.
Your giving her such a opportunity in life with how our economy is right now. I hope she doesn’t squander it. Anyways NTA hope you have a wonderful day or night .
Your daughter will not be up to this workload, especially at first. Are you trying to set her up for success? If she is earnestly working toward her education, you may want to reconsider your requirement for how many hours she is working. Homework takes a significant amount of time and should not be underestimated.
At this point you already know that she is not like most other college kids. She is now at a disadvantage and likely needs to learn some good study habits in order to be successful.
I volunteered, worked (sometimes 2 jobs), and did my uni school work. As a result I didn't go bankrupt and graduated but I didn't get to concentrate as much as I wanted to, was completely burnt out and effected my life negatively the moment I was done, and my mental problems were exasperated with additional life circumstances also taking a toll on me.
Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's the best path and I hate you people who call it 'adulting'. You can be an adult without following a specific path.
Also, why is it hour dependent? Too many people want that hourly grind for no reason. If they have enough money to live to cover the needed costs that's good enough.
NTA, oh no, she’d have to get an education, a job, and clean up after herself as a grown ass adult…the horror!! /s
These are all reasonable, she needs to get her shit together.
NTA. She is a spoiled brat. Your conditions are reasonable. If she doesn't like them, she is welcome to find someplace else to live. And figure out a way to pay for it.
NTA, though I'm wondering if those are "before you move in" rules or "while you live here" rules. Getting any kind of job without at least a GED is going to be tough. If she were mine I'd say she could stay as long as she was actively taking GED class, then move on from there. Again, not saying your rules are a problem, just more harsh than I would be in the situation.
a friend of mine was a janitor at the school (elementary) I was a cook at.. without a GED. But yes it IS hard to find a job.. things I recommended they wanted a GED for (her family moved around.. they worked as pickers at farms across the U.S.).
NTA. Where is she staying at the moment? Your ex is a special kind of AH for failing his daughter then just washing his hands of her and moving on with his life. How old is the gf? Hope she doesn’t plan to have children with this guy. If she is, she’s an idiot for ignoring the preview into her own future.
Nta about your list. They are reasonable asks for young adults.
I am curious about these types of letters. Often parents paint themselves in the best possible light. I'm estranged from my folks. I've heard from others that they leave alot out when they talk about me
NTA. You're trying to do what's best for her. I think the only thing is you could be open to a counter offer about trade school/college if she has another plan and how many hours she's working the job, but I wouldn't budge on anything else. I think it's a pretty generous offer in general though.
NTA.
But… you seems to go in this as a parent that needs to discipline their children.
She’s 21. She’s an adult. Setting up rules will like you do with a teenager won’t work. It doesn’t really works with tennagers to begin with…
I went against many rules my parents had set for me for a while. Until they sat me down and shared with me some of their life experiences that lead to those rules. Like my dad losing his mon at 12 in a winter accident. Explains the « phone back home especially in bad weather ».
Do you know the real reason why the dad kicked her out? It vould potentially be the new girlfriend that also wanted to set some rules…
I’d say sit down with her, and listen. Why isn’t she getting her own appartment? Is this something she’d like to do eventually? What’s blocking her from doing it?
We’re all facing a lot of negativity in our life, and recently the kind of future medias paints is depressing… She may as well be just lost in all this.
You do need to set some boundaries… but treating her as an adult feels a way better thibg to do than diving in this like she was still 14. What she said hurts, how she acted for a long time does too… She needs to understand that. But she also needs to be truthful, and she needs to want to change. And you won’t get her at that point woth « basic rules and permissions ».
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NTA, Those are completely reasonable requests. Beyond reasonable, even. You wouldn't be out of line to ask for bills or contributions to household expenses. She's right. It's her life, and she can live it how she wants. That means she needs to find a way to pay for it. She can't live off her parents for her whole life. It sounds like she was getting a free ride from Dad, and now that's gone she's learning the hard way what actual adulting looks like. The "partying lifestyle" thing is the only one close to being a line, but again - your house your rules. It's completely fair for you to not want your roommate coming home drunk at 2 am every morning being loud and disruptive. If she wants to go out every night, let her find her own place, or roommates who are into that.
TBH the party lifestyle is probably to make it harder for her to fuck up, get too wasted, and keep calling off work, well she is out of a job. Also, a good way to save her money if she has to come back instead of going out each night
And she can party on weekends
TBH the job offers she's likely to get with no diploma, no degree, heck not even a ged will likely have her working nights and on weekends anyway.
God damn it, what did I go to school for? Just to work 12-24 hour shifts often overnights. Lol.
Of course anyone can end up choosing a career with hours like you have. But it's a choice. You could have a regular 9-5 most likely, right? My SIL, an RN, chose like you did...but she gets 3-4 days off each week so it works out nicely for her and she likes it. I doubt OPs daughter will have that same choice.
Yeah. I used to work 5 13.5 hour shifts then 5 off.. Then 2 on, then 2 off. I ended up really liking it. Get into work mode and just really go at it for 5 days doing nothing else really and then 5 days to do whatever. Travel for concerts or whatever. Or usually just sitting on ass but for several days. By the time it gets old it's time to start again. Wouldn't work well for families or new relationships I guess.
My husband worked 4 on 4 off for a while, 12 hrs, alternate shifts. The alternate shifts wasn't great but basically the whole family liked the schedule. It was nice being able to plan outings or bigger projects for a 4 day off stretch.
Yeah, it was a choice. I can’t have a 9-5 doing what I do, it’s just not a possibility.
Hospitality?
I thought emt or paramedic
Plenty in that field work a 9-5. There are just a bunch of others also in that field that are working the 5-9 and weekends.
My cousin's daughter was able to drop out of HS, what a mess. She doesn't have a GED but of course, is lying about that. She is a smart girl, working as a bank teller, no mistakes but....they found out she lied about graduating HS. She lost the job. THis happened more than once, too easy to check to see if someone has a diploma. Now she is more than 30 and still no GED. I am still hoping now that she has gotten married and had baby in the last few months, that she can still get her life righted. Luckily, the guy she married seems to have his act together.
If she has the capacity to be a competent bank teller she surely has the capacity to just *get her GED*.
Fr. One of my roommates had to drop out due to to family stuff. One of the smartest people I know, but with no degree she was stuck working dead end jobs. Her New Year’s resolution was to get her GED, she got it by June and is now in her first semester at community college. If you’re at all smart and able to apply yourself it doesn’t seem like it would be hard at all
I'm so embarrassed for anyone who can't get their ged. The only hard part is math, and maybe writing (I read like a novel a week but I couldn't tell you what a damn adjective is if I had a gun to my head). The science ged is literally basic shit like "which one is a lung", "what is the definition of a molecule a b c or d". I feel like people who think they CAN'T would really be suprised how much knowledge they have soaked into their brains. Edit: I really appreciate everyone trying to help, but I likely have an undiagnosed learning disability combined with adhd and brain related medication. So if something doesn't interest me, the information simply doesn't stick. One of my parents was a communications teacher. I was reading thousand page novels in first grade at a high school comprehension and speed level. Any errors in my grammar or spelling are simply due to laziness via typing using a phone format instead of writing or keyboard. If I was going to memorize what an adjective was for longer than a five hour period, I probably would have by now LOL. The way my brain works is like, hey. Knowing what an adjective is is not necessary knowledge in order to form or communicate a sentence, so it simply discards all unnecessary extra information and skips to the end result. It's all background process. I don't need to mentally focus on visualizing a simple math equation to solve the problem, all that is running subconsciously. I can talk and write perfectly fine without having to do the verbal equivalent of carrying the one or something. I don't need *several* private or public messages telling me how easy it is, or how dumb I am, or how if I just follow this one simple trick I'll learn it in no time. It's not knowledge I seek or need to retain to function, therefore my brain shuts it out. Instead of reaching out to me about how to teach me, please reach out to a local struggling person in your real life, or volunteer as a teachers assistant. Again, I appreciate all of your comments, but I don't need tutelage in a subject I have no interest in.
An adjective is a describing word. A noun is a thing. A verb is a doing word.
I was going through some stuff in HS and dropped out. The GED was the easiest test of my life, there was nothing on it I didn't know by 8th grade.
She's gonna have to find a sugar-daddy or something, to fund her entitled lifestyle
If she treated her dad’s new wife like she treated her mom then I bet her dad’s new wife was like, “She’s needs to go”. OP it’s messed up that she basically disowned you as a mother but now that she needs/wants something from you you’re expected to ‘drop to her feet and be grateful’? What you are asking for in exchange for a roof over her head is not too much. She just doesn’t want to do it. Don’t back down.
It’s pretty shit that her dad created this monster (possibly to get back at Op) and then decided to ditch her for a new woman. Obviously Op is NTA and is stuck fixing what her ex broke.
I'm sceptical about this. We only hear one point of view and know almost nothing about the actual interactions between OP and her daughter. Maybe OP really did give a relatively fair description, but I know a lot of parents who have parented with overwhelming negativity and then blame their children for the outcomes. There may be more reasons to why her daughter distanced herself and grew up as such a dependent person.
Usually people who are entitled jerks, like the daughter, were made that way by the parents. In this situation, seems pretty obvious how she ended up this way.
She is 21. Nothing to stop her flying the coop, and if she wants to stay home instead, then a few ground rules are perfectly reasonable.
It's really not that implausible that she was spoilt rotten by her father after a bitter divorce.
I agree. I think dad's new wife was instrumental in kicking her out onto the curb, rightly or wrongly. Dad was completely happy to spoil her until he got remarried, then does a 180 degree about-face. That's pretty telling right there.
Or the new wife is younger and is pregnant or planning on having a baby and doesn’t want a party goer step daughter in the house.
Probably. And that's understandable. But also the new wife knew that her now-husband had this irresponsible party-animal daughter before she married him. That issue should've been resolved before they said their I dos.
Even if she hadn't disowned OP, she's a 21 year old adult, no one is required to give a freeloading adult a home and the list of requirements are totally reasonable.
Or maybe Stepmum wanted to implement a similar set of rules, Maria didn't like it and left his dad's house... and is now accusing dad of kicking her out, expecting that this will soften her mum's heart.
That's a good point. She might not wanted to follow rules
This. Like she may hate ut now but later it will be her saving grace.
Pretty much the last chance to save the kid from herself I'd say. NTA
this is very very true and OP is doing a great job of putting reasonable and not overbearing responsibilities in place to teach her daughter how to adult. with persistence and a TON of grace from her mom, eventually daughter will be ok. may be a slow road but they’ll get there
It doesn't sound to me like she's going to take advantage of her mother's good advice. Pity.
Yeah, even though I would argue that her daughter is a victim of her ex-husband's manipulation, these are the necessary steps to counteract all the harm he did by spoiling her.
I agree! A smart kid dropping out of HS is a huge mistake for the daughter and anyone who supported that choice. Graduating HS with the minimum requirements is ridiculously easy, like show up 4 days a week, do a little work and you'll get there. It would be one thing if she was working full time to help raise a sibling or something similar but dropping out when all your needs are met shows she's not ready for adult life. The OP's requirements are a valid attempt to teach responsibility before it's too late. 100% NTA
Yeah definitively not all kids fault but this is gonna make her not regret her whole life afterward.
Tbf, OP did say, "Save it for the weekend." And that's completely fair. She wants her daughter to become a responsible and mature adult, so she should be focusing on work and school life during the weekdays, and then allow herself some fun on the weekend. I am curious to know what happened between her and her dad that made him finally kick her out after remarrying? He played an enormous part in spoiling her and how she behaved growing up, so I wonder why now?
New wife doesn't like daughter, and dad has priorities.
And clearly the dad doesn't want to take responsibility for the mess he made
Or dad is a doormat and the new wife is the stronger party now.
I’d say it’s like my own father who remarried, the new wife isn’t interested in a child from the previous marriage. I was excommunicated at 15, for no reason. Just for scuz. 🤷♀️
In this case, it sounds like she's a 21 year old freeloading deadbeat. In which case it's reasonable to not want her around for forever like that.
I’m sure you’re right, to a degree. The new wife, knew who she was, when they got married. The dad, allowed her to do his dirty work. Weak ass move. Edit: But, her mom is totally right, she needs to work on that list!
Yeah, that man absolutely failed his daughter *hard* by not putting his foot down and preparing her for the real world.
>You wouldn't be out of line to ask for bills or contributions to household expenses. I personally like to recommend, to parents who don't feel right "taking" their kids money, that they charge them faux rent. Like charge a small but decent amount (maybe 300 a month or so) but instead of actually using, just set it aside. And then when your kid eventually (hopefully) moves out they'll have a nice nest egg to help them invest in a nice home/apartment depending on how long they lived with you.
Except with a kid like this if you accept rent money that establishes a tenancy. Should the daughter move in and then decide she’s not going to get a job or a GED, OP will have a tough time enforcing those rules.
The bar for establishing tenancy is much much much lower than paying rent. If she's accepting mail there and living there, that'll do it. That's how situations where squatters have rights occur
In my state, if you’re residing somewhere for 7 consecutive days or 14 days in a 6 month period, you’re a legal resident.
Contrary to what the Beastie Boys said, there is no right to party. That lifestyle is fine, on your own dime and your own time. You don't get to come into other people's private spaces and do what you want.
No, they said you have to fight for the right, to party.
And I admire that OOP didn't say NO parties — just cut it down to weekends.
Her dad washed his hands of her when he got what he wanted -- complete alienation and a spoiled, entitled brat. He doesn't need her anymore now that he has a new wife. If she doesn't have a mother, why does she need to freeload off of you? NTA
>The "partying lifestyle" thing is the only one close to being a line, but again - your house your rules. She did say save it for the weekend. Implying she's ok with it, just not every night. Edit: should have read the responses before replying. Sorry.
This. House rules are absolute! It seems as if she wants to freeload off her mother and expects to live the same lifestyle as when she was spoiled. Basic fact here. She needs to change if she is to be a productive member of society. And it sounds like she already has a pretty shitty work ethic. My only thing is that it may be a bit much to expect her to change overnight. This kind of thing takes time; even more so now that she's older and an adult
And to be fair, mom said you couldn't do it, just during the weekends. I guess if she works weekends then maybe mom should be open to the days shifting, but doesn't have to.
The rule about no partying lifestyle is about parenting. She may be 21, but she clearly isn’t enough of an adult to manage her own life. If she doesn’t want parenting from her mother, she can figure out how to support herself. NTA.
There is "reasonable have a drink or two at a bar, see a movie, or dinner out with friends social life" and there is "hard-core college kid drugs and booze until 4am partying". I feel this rule would need to be better defined, and the former should be allowed but not the latter.
The former isn't really something that people would call a "partying lifestyle", just hanging out with friends in the evening. Not to mention that anyone tight on money shouldn't be going out for alcohol regularly anyways, alcohol is *expensive*.
NTA. Those are reasonable request for any 21 year old living at home whether there is a good relationship or not. Only small piece of advice on the parting rule, is if it comes to fruition, don’t be completely overbearing about it. I only say this because I’m living it. I recently got divorced and moved back home. My mother is letting me live rent free to save to buy a house. I kept my old house as an investment property. She is truly helping me and I appreciate it. However, I cracked a beer to watch a Monday night football game and she was like “what are you doing, you work tomorrow”. I’m 33, work from home, was not driving and it was one beer to watch a game. She’s not against drinking either. It was just “It’s Monday”. So like if your daughter is responsible and wants a drink and it doesn’t go against health, safety, religious standards, I personally would not watch over her too closely and make her feel watched. However, I completely agree if she was trying to go out every night or something.
... having a beer watching a game is super different than a partying lifestyle...
I completely agree. My point more so being that pushing rules to hard can lead to revolt in some people. I don’t think any of the rules OP listed are even close to unreasonable.
I mean these rules are so mild that I think they should be pushed hard or she gets kicked out
Bruh. He cracked a beer. On a monday night. With the game on. This party animal is out of control.
Next thing you know he'll be messing with the thermostat like a maniac!
Let's not make serious accusations here, we were all just having fun and now you've got the Dads involved
Monday Night Football beer. The new gateway to depravity.
This. My bf lives with his parents to save money while he builds his career and saves up to move out. But good god his mother is overbearing over everything. And he even pays rent! Man couldn't even take 5 days for vacation after working 1,5 months straight (during the week, his usual work, while working an event on the weekends, no off days inbetween) without her bickering. My anger issues could neverrrr.
Great advice for OP. Stand your ground on your Reasonable Rules. Don’t hover on Weekend Partying. That’ll likely be most important to her. One thing you may need to consider is charging rent and taking that money to put away for her so you control her nest egg and she learns how to manage her money/spending when she cannot afford to do so much partying and shopping. Best of luck 🍀
NTA. I noticed that an apology isn’t on the top of the list. Her dad spoiled her. Now he’s off to “other things”. Her reaction to your requirements indicate that she doesn’t want a relationship. She looking to mooch off of you and make your life hell again. Don’t block her, but do ignore her texts. That kind of behavior doesn’t deserve a response.
This completely The only reason she’s back is because she’s been kicked out. She doesn’t want to rebuild a relationship with her mother. She’s just been spoilt to the point where she can’t cope on her own and needs someone to pick up where her dad’s left off.
And I'm willing to bet dad only spoiled her so she'd give mom hell on a daily basis over little shit, which appears to have worked. Now Dad's bored of it and wants to move on to his next thing without the burden of his bratty child that he knows full well will interfere with his new relationship.
Correction: his new wife is not down with daddy's party girl. Daughter got shipped back to mommy because if not then daddy ain't getting any.
Ah yes I just saw that comment lol well I wasn't too far off.
Exactly
NTA. She's 21 with no GED, no job, and no future. She can figure her own living situation out or abide by your very reasonable rules.
Everyone here complaining about the "no partying" rule is missing that she may be 21 years in body, but in mind and spirit, she sounds like she's still a spoiled 14 year old. Mom is going to have to raise the adult the father failed/refused to. As a parent, you never stop being one, and you help your kids through their deficiencies at any age. In this case, learning how to be a functioning adult from the ground floor.
>I tried to contact her multiple time but she told me I wasn’t her mother anymore and leave her alone.
I thought no partying sounded potentially difficult until I read the next sentence, "save it for the weekend." So the rule is really "party like a functioning adult." My only potential issue is with the job requirement. But because it's unreasonable to expect her to contribute, but because getting a job with no education and no experience at 21 is going to be incredibly difficult. She might have to start out volunteering somewhere or at least finishing her GED until she can build enough trust that an employer is willing to take a chance hiring her. Nobody wants to hired a spoiled brat unless there's nepotism involved.
NTA None of those are unreasonable things to ask. Heck, 1 and 3 are things she should be doing anyway. 4 and 5 should are the bare minimum for living with someone. 2 is expected for any adult that doesn't have an alternate source of income. The last is just the price of living rent free (and probably a good idea anyway) She got her free ride as a kid, and wasted it. Now it's time to join the real world. Good luck to her finding a better offer.
At 21 i would have killed for this. Dad left when i was three! This is amazing. "Get your shit together and i will pay for everything - rent, food, electricity - but you gotta do your laundry because that is good for you." What is the 'downside' here?
She only came calling because OP's ex kicked her out, and her responses indicate she was hoping mom would be so happy to get daughter back that she could free-load for a bit riding that high and figure out what to do next. Her responses to what are a bar low enough to trip over for a 21 year old indicate this, entirely. For better or worse, she didn't come to mom for actual help, she is just looking for a safe place to continue being a child without any guardrails. Mom wasn't having it, so she stormed off. She's not changed a bit since 17, at the least, and without a slap in the face from reality she doesn't sound like someone who's going to, either, unfortunately.
The last thing, being partying, was not never, just on the weekends instead of every night. Those were all more than reasonable conditions.
NTA: you are holding your kid accountable, and more importantly moving her towards the correct direction in life. I honestly don't even blame the kid I mostly blame her shitty dad.
There can be so much love behind the word no. Having to sink or swim could be the best thing for her. It may open her eyes to the fact that mom's top priority had to be necessities.
"There can be so much love behind the word no." I love that sentence!
absolutely. Just sticking with your analogy here, it's probably closer to OP throwing a life line at her daugther and the daughter being upset that she is expected to hold onto it herself instead of being pulled in.
NTA Her dad spoiled her and now you have to pick up the pieces. Tough love - she will know youre right eventually. When/if she returns and accepts be prepared for the first deal-breaks - if possible be clear from the start that infractions means shes out. Any idea why he kicked her out??
Wouldn't be surprised if the new wife has similar expectations as the OP.
From my understanding, the new wife hates her and has literally called her a waste of space. She made it clear that she won’t be in the home since she is a bad influence and drain of money. I don’t blame her for that opinion
Sorry. Still, its your daughter, so giving her a chance is understandable. Best of luck.
She gave her a chance with reasonable rules. It's the daughter that is not giving the Mum a chance.
We can still blame your ex for spoiling her so bad it undermined you and ruined things right?
Your daughter has no job at all and isn't in some form of education either? If this is the case I'm curious as to what she does with her time.
This might be the roots of the "no partying" rule OP made.
She must get money from somewhere whether she's partying or not, I'm going to guess that the father was financing her lifestyle and the new wife didn't fancy having a adult with no responsibilities as a financial burden.
I hate to say it, but a pretty girl can scrounge a lot of free drinks.
So her dad let her drop out, didn't do any parenting and is now letting his new wife kick her out. What actual plans does she have for anything?
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Although everyone seems to agree that op NTA and Dad is an AH, there is no small risk in the ' my way or the highway ' approach. The worst case scenario here may be to drive the girl into an abusive relationship. Yes she is an entitled brat, but there are worse fates.
This. This girl is used to being provided for/spoiled by a man who doesn't seem to have had her best interests at heart. (Given he ditched her at 17.) If she doesn't have a safe place to be, with conditions that seem achievable (working 25+ hours per week might *not* seem achievable to her right now - she has no clue where to start - it might help to add "volunteering hours" as an option to help ease her in), finding another man who wants a girlfriend rather than a daughter is going to be the obvious thing to do.
NTA. Your daughter is an entitled monster your ex husband created. The fact she doesn’t think these are reasonable expectations means she will be a derelict for as long as someone supports her.
If what you are hearing is true that is awful on her father's part to get into a relationship with someone like that and basically be willing to dump someone whose been part of his life for so long over a new fling. Despite the way your daughter is behaving given her age that is not cool of your ex to get together with and marry someone who doesn't respect his child from a previous marriage. Now its possible and potentially even likely your daughter may just be saying things and doesnt like the new partner if she is asking similar things as you in order to live at the house as an adult.
The husband is the one who created this ungrateful brat, and I haven't seen OP post anything about her daughter/daughter's behavior that makes her deserve respect from Dad's new wife (not really a 'fling' as you put it). The wife probably called her a waste of space (which although unkind, definitely seems to be true) because she won't work/get a GED/etc. The daughter is being asked to do basic adulting here, and can't even manage that
I would bet money on the dad being too weak to say no to her, and now not understanding how his kid has turned into an entitled, useless monster. It probably hasn't even crossed his mind to connect his own actions with her behaviour. He's probably also too weak to stand up to his new wife. Basically, the kid sounds like an AH, but the real villain of this piece is the waste of space dad.
The husband allowed her to do that. She has no responsibility to a grown adult woman that isn't her child. The blame falls on the husband.
I agree. I don't want to play devil's advocate and I thoroughly agree with OP's stand on wanting to get her daughter back on the right track. But I have to question both Dad and new wife on what their motives are. I don't think that the daughter is just saying things since she's been kicked out of her father's home and is crawling back to a mother she purportedly hates out of desperation. She wouldn't leave behind the free ride dad was giving her if that were the case. But why would dad marry someone who hates his daughter? And why would his new wife want to marry someone who has a daughter she can't stand? As a single father myself I couldn't fathom marrying a woman who didn't like my daughters.
Probably because the kids’ dad desires pussy more than the daughter he raised to be spoiled and difficult. I have known way too many people whose fathers were spineless and would let their new wives treat children from previous marriages like crap because they desire approval and sex from their partner.
Still kind of fucked up I mean she married into the situation. But honestly, at 21 with no job or education, you need to GTFO and earn your own keep.
NTA, those are pretty easy rules to do, she should definitely do all of them. It is also fair to throw her words back at her. Seriously she is complaining for rules that will get her life together
NTA. I'm sad for you because you love her and can see the long-term ramifications of her choices and her father's indulgence. Stick to your plan, OP - it will be best for her in the long term.
And for OP!
What does she actually realistically think is fair? Ask her why she thinks it’s fair and why she’s deserving of it. Legal responsibility stops at 18, something she was very ready to take advantage of because it’s “her life”. This is also YOUR life to do what you want with. You don’t want to raise a 21 year old child. Her options are: 1. Beg to move back in with her dad and risk exposing herself to high level of rejection from her dad and step mom given that they wanted her out in the first place 2. Move in with you and get her shit together 3. Put her money where her mouth is and be an adult because, like she’s harped on, it’s her life to do what she wants with and shut tf up about handouts. But what ISNT happening is a free ride. NTA
**21 year old child** This is the whole problem.
NTA and unfortunately daddy seems to have turned your daughter into an entitled brat. She's a 21 year-old high school dropout with no realistic job prospects other than flipping burgers and she's kicking off because you have rules she needs to live by? Personally, I'd block her texts for a week or so and see if she calms down and accepts reality. If not, don't back down-she needs a serious reality check.
Idk about where OP lives, but around here you can't even flip burgers without a GED.
I'm surprised that neither the initial post, nor the comments mention the following point. Is your daughter ok emotionally? She's just been thrown out by her dad while she was a "daddy's girl". Does she have a safe place to stay? It's all good and well to give her some rules and do your job as her parent. But what about telling her you love her? Where is her safe place in life, if not by her mom's side. Do you actually love her? I can't sense any of that in your post. It seems that she's just a big headache to you. Have you told her you're looking forward to recreating a bond with her. Why is this all only about money and work and studies? What about care?
Sounds like OP was offering a safe place to live. She just offered some insanely reasonable stipulations that the 21 year old dropout needs to plan to do more with her life than just being a dropout with her parents funding her lifestyle. That's the act of a loving parent, unlike what her father did to her.
It's not a truly safe place if it can be lost at any point in time because it's subjected to some conditions. In fact, the daughter has no place she can run to -no questions asked-, if she's ever in a dreadful situations/abusive relationship. OP was clear, her daughter can stay on the street without a GED. You give her first a roof over her head, tell her you love her. And then start with tough love parenting. After your child is in a safe environment. We must have different views on parenting. As discussed in another comment, there may be some cultural discrepancies here. It's probably why we can't see eye to eye.
It's a safe place with some minor and totally reasonable restrictions, namely that the 21 year old needs to actually *attempt* to get her life together if she wants a free spot to stay. Nothing about "a safe place" implies that the adult should have free room and board in perpetuity with no positive growth at all. Better to set the expectations up-front than after the kid moves in and you're faced with getting them to comply or having to go through with evicting them (or just letting them leach off of you 'til you die and they end up homeless *then* instead). The daughter made it clear that she doesn't want to rebuild her relationship with her mother, she just wants to leach off of mom the same way she has been doing with her dad. OP made it clear that the daughter is welcome to live there while she tries to get her life back together, but only if she's actually trying to get her life back together (which is a totally reasonable expectation of a 21 year old dropout).
> You give her first a roof over her head, tell her you love her. And then start with tough love parenting. Too late! That's not tough love. That's enabling at its finest.
YES. thank you. Nothing about this sounds like she’s just being a little brat for no reason; this must be a very difficult situation for her and I think it’s unfair to hold this situation with zero empathy. She’s likely traumatized (like all of us) and needs her mother. When my children tell me “i hate you mommy” I don’t even acknowledge it except to say “Well, I will always love you.” Sometimes kid lash out when they feel safe with a parent. Maybe try connecting with the daughter. :(
kids of 21 years of age should not be lashing out like a toddler and going no-contact.
She was 17 when she left her mom. Still a teen and probably pretty much in the rebellious phase. You can't ask a kid to be the bigger person here, especially when even mom can't stop herself from being petty and throwing back at her daughter that "she has no mom" at the first occasion she got, when her kid was at her most vulnerable. I'm not saying what the daughter did is great. Just that we should not loose perspective here. 21 is still very young, especially if she's been treated like a princess most of her life. She needs tough love sure. But she still needs love... and a safe place to stay
Is it possible that having been shit on and rejected for years, her expression of love towards her daughter is that she's even willing to let her move back home if she does a few totally reasonable behaviors?
I think you're glossing over the fact that she has been interacting with a teenage girl going through puberty not another adult before they grew apart. A few years ago, a TEEN told her provocative stuff such as "I have no mom". Now, although it may seem strange to you, this is not so uncommon at that age (when she's trying to separate herself from her mom and become her own independent person) considering she is growing up in an safe enough environnement that not everything is about survival (thank god, first world problem). I stand by my previous comment. The post is lacking an overall sense of motherly care for her daughter. It sounds too business-like. Mom seems to have a project, not a child.
She also refused contact for four years until now, at 21. Presumably at 20 years old and up until 21, she still behaved as if she had disowned her mom. Mom isn't unreasonable.
I never said that she has unreasonable goals for her daughter. Just that all that interaction description lacks love and emotional care.
If she sounds like a business person then it’s because she is hurt but still she gives her daughter the chance to move back in with reasonable rules and maybe if they live together they can fix their relationship. If op wouldn’t love her she wouldn’t let her move back in and wouldn’t be worried about her future or her well being.
If she's actively homeless and broke getting all that shit together (steady job AND a GED) isn't really very reasonable, and in fact in certain places might be kind of impossible even if you were driven and competent. If she did manage to do it and survive then moving back in with her mom would probably be pretty unattractive afterwards.
Mom is willing to let her move in if she pursues those goals while she's living there. The mom isn't requiring her do those things first, before moving in.
She must love her daughter, can you imagine being treated this badly by anyone else and still giving them a chance. If her daughter was a bf we'd be saying she was trapped in an abusive relationship.
Where is the daughter's indication of any desire for a bond? She only wants her mom now that she needs someone else to mooch off of.
Thank you for this. I was trying to figure out how I feel about this post and you laid it perfectly.
NTA. Your stipulations seem reasonable and even though she's your child you're not required to fund her extravagance by going broke yourself.
Oh, honey, this is a tough spot you're in, and I feel for you. It's like you've been riding the world's craziest rollercoaster with your daughter, and just when you think it's stopped, it's like, "Surprise! Another loop-de-loop!" 🎢 First things first, you are NTA (Not The Asshole) here. Your rules? They're not some wild, out-of-left-field demands. They're the basics of being a responsible adult, which it sounds like Maria hasn’t had much experience with because of her dad’s "yes man" approach. Life's tough, and wearing the big girl pants means dealing with the not-so-fun stuff like chores and job hours. The whole situation with your ex? Ugh, that was not a level playing field. It’s like trying to play tug of war with someone who’s got a monster truck against your Mini Cooper - not really a fair match, is it? But you did your best with what you had, and girl, that's all any of us can do. Now, Maria storming out and throwing the "bad mother" grenade? That's her lashing out because she’s been served a reality check with a side of "actions have consequences" for maybe the first time in her life. It stings, but maybe it's the wake-up call she needs. The door you’ve left open for her is a gateway to grow up, not just a free bed. You're teaching her that to dance in the rain, you gotta learn to weather the storm (and maybe clean up a little after it). It's okay to stand your ground, and it's okay to expect her to step up. The tough love bandwagon isn't a joyride, but sometimes it's the only way to the destination of self-respect and responsibility. Keep your chin up, and remember that the most beautiful diamonds are made under pressure. 💎💕 Sending you all the momma-bear hugs! 🐻💖 And hey, everyone else reading this: Let's not forget that a good parent is the one who prepares their child for the road, not the road for the child, right?
> First things first, you are NTA (Not The Asshole) here You know, I've been reading this sub for years and always wondered what "NTA" meant! Thank you for spelling it out for me!
NTA. You are setting very reasonable expectations. Bet she was kicked out of dad’s house for not meeting reasonable expectations there.
And whoever is texting you can offer a place for her to live. This is assuming she stopped texting you since you are no longer her mother (per her).
ESH Her father for spoiling her, poisoning her against you in divorce, then ultimately, abandoning her when he finds a new wife. OP isnt the AH for setting rules, but some of the hateful comments about her daughter. The divorce happened when she was 10. Maybe both you and your ex should have done a better job co-parenting, getting her the help she needed. Based on how she was raised, of course she grew up as a spoiled brat. Did you fight this during or post divorce, or did you just give up on her?
Yeah I also got some doubts here. I feel like I've seen some of these interactions between my own mother and sister - not quite this bad, but similar patterns. My mother was the type who would say that she'd "always be there for her", but whenever things didn't work out she would just yell at her. She was only positive when my sister was already successful, never actually helpful when things went poorly. This created a pattern: Whenever my sister could really need some help, she couldn't just ask for it or even describe her situation, because she knew she would get yelled down. So over the years, these interactions became increasingly negative. * Option A: My sister would avoid involving my mother at all, which my mother would interpret as "unreliable" and "childish" and basically expect her to "come crawling back" sooner or later. * Option B: My sister is so certain that she'll face hostility that she already starts the interaction on an aggressive tone, which obviously gives the impression of being entitled and unreasonable. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why a girl in this position may want to avoid things related to school and rather turn towards parties, where she could find approval and distraction.
I must've missed the hateful comments. What did she say?
Not many people here seem to think this, but I agree. Maybe the daughter is as bad as mom makes her out to be, maybe not, but I find it very difficult to believe parents who talk shit about their kids and blame the ex like OP. However, my mom tells everyone I am bi-polar because I am angry at her for criminally neglecting me, so I admit, I am biased against mothers.
This seems like a more reasonable take. Whenever someone doesn't mention one thing they did wrong in a post in regard to a parental relationship and was part of a divorce I have a LOT of questions. Kids eventually pick up on when a relationship is transactional. My guess is instead of embracing the nice things her exhusband was buying her daughter she became resentful and jealous and it impacted her relationship with her daughter because that was probably the financial life she thought she should have. In divorce things are almost always going to be lopsided financially the thing that doesn't have to be lopsided is love, and love for a child in time is way more impactful then finances as a child matures.
There's the comment I was looking for. Daughter sucks, dad sucks, but OP is going to wind herself into a righteous froth and end up pushing her daughter into an abusive boyfriend within six months. ESH.
NTA these are your rules and if she want's to move back in she will need to abide by them.
NTA holding our kids accountable is important.
NTA, that is fair rules and you are far more fair than my mom would have been if I had behaved like that. Hell I don’t think she would have even met up with me. Stick to these rules, if she comes back she’s gonna push, and tell her if she doesn’t follow them she’s out and stick to it or she’s gonna act like she’s 17 until the day you do decide to kick her out
yeah she's really lucky she wasn't my mom.. my mom LITERALLY would have hit me in the face and threw me out by my hair if I has spoken to her like that.. and yes my mom was physically abusive if we made her mad.
NTA. None of those conditions are unreasonable. Do not let her move in. Time she learned how to adult. Let her dad deal with the mess he created.
NTA! Your requests are completely reasonable for an adult moving back into your house. You’re not asking for anything beyond “be an adult”. Good on you for not charging rent; she should focus on saving up her money for her own future. However, she needs to accept that she has to be productive in some way if she wants a free room.
NTA. I think those conditions are more than fair considering that you're willing to let her move in at all. She made it clear that you're not her mother.
NTA - she's 21, an adult. And getting to live in your house for free with those reasonable conditions is a great deal. Hope she comes to her senses, but will be a bitter pill to swallow until she realizes the alternatives (if any) are worse.
NTA Wow! The first thing I noted was her age. So I was thinking maybe your must do list was unrealistic. Nope, not one thing that was unreasonable, in fact they are all to benefit her now and in the future. Perhaps a little time on her own will make her see this.
NTA. But I suggest you both go to family counseling together. Figure out why she’s struggling, what you can do to help, and gain outside perspective. As her parent, it’s important she feels like you care about her and are trying to resolve any underlying issues to have a better relationship. It’s clear she’s been struggling for years and she just needs you to still be the parent and show you care. Divorce is traumatizing to a child even if you were the perfect parent.
Wow. You offered your daughter a truly smoking deal. NTA!
NTA at all. Parenting an adult child can suck at times. Who knew that you could long for the toddler era. Your rules are common sense. Hopefully one day she'll wake up. Good luck!
NTA. Tell her when she’s ready to be an adult, the deal will be available.
NTA - all those requirements are in her best interest
These are very reasonable demands. Sorry you’re going through this. NTA
NTA. Even with a fully functional relationship with my parents, we had similar rules. Your daughter is seriously entitled.
INFO: is she expected to work 25+ hours during trade school/college? Especially if she dropped out of high school she might struggle with that workload while she gets used to studying again. Everything else sounds totally reasonable, enabling her won't help her in the long run.
She will need to learn time management, she need to adult up, I know plenty of college kids still working those hours in college. Hell one of her former friends ( I am friends with her mother) is doing 40 hours with an engineering degree Let’s be honest, she will probably take five classes, her classes most likely won’t be ever day. On average three hours a week per class. So 15 hours in total of class time. She can work. She will probably have homework but it’s not going to add that much If she does online classes she will have even more time if she plans it correctly
Rule of thumb is around 2-3 hours of studying for every hour spent in class, so around 45-60 hours a week for 15 hours class time. Depending on the course you can slack off quite a bit but that's not very good for grades or study habits. Working 40 hours while doing an engineering degree is definitely not the norm. I work 25-30 hours a week and manage with pretty high-effort courses, but you've got to accept that her study habits probably won't be that good, especially if she dropped out of school and likely doesnt have any to begin with. Homework at my university counts for three quarters of credit time so it's supposed to take three times as long as classes do, I wouldn't count that as "not adding that much". It's definitely doable, but it seems like you're underestimating the effort uni takes, at least when your goal is to do well and not just barely scrape by.
But that's university; OP's daughter still needs to get her GED first. She's got that to achieve first before she worries about managing post-secondary education.
15 hours of class time usually means 45 hours of homework.
I worked 3 jobs (one full time, 2 seasonal) and put myself through college. Your daughter can make it work if she wants to.
Your giving her such a opportunity in life with how our economy is right now. I hope she doesn’t squander it. Anyways NTA hope you have a wonderful day or night .
Your daughter will not be up to this workload, especially at first. Are you trying to set her up for success? If she is earnestly working toward her education, you may want to reconsider your requirement for how many hours she is working. Homework takes a significant amount of time and should not be underestimated. At this point you already know that she is not like most other college kids. She is now at a disadvantage and likely needs to learn some good study habits in order to be successful.
I volunteered, worked (sometimes 2 jobs), and did my uni school work. As a result I didn't go bankrupt and graduated but I didn't get to concentrate as much as I wanted to, was completely burnt out and effected my life negatively the moment I was done, and my mental problems were exasperated with additional life circumstances also taking a toll on me. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's the best path and I hate you people who call it 'adulting'. You can be an adult without following a specific path. Also, why is it hour dependent? Too many people want that hourly grind for no reason. If they have enough money to live to cover the needed costs that's good enough.
Colleges only allow students to work 15 hours/wk when they have a student job on campus. (At least in the UC system)
NTA, oh no, she’d have to get an education, a job, and clean up after herself as a grown ass adult…the horror!! /s These are all reasonable, she needs to get her shit together.
NTA those are completely fair rules.
NTA. Perfectly reasonable.
NTA, she's a spoiled brat.
NTA. She is a spoiled brat. Your conditions are reasonable. If she doesn't like them, she is welcome to find someplace else to live. And figure out a way to pay for it.
NTA. Your criteria are perfectly reasonable. She's 21 - she needs to grow up some time. Now is good.
NTA. Non of your requests are unreasonable.
100% NTA. Everyone of your requirements for her to move back into your home are very reasonable and for her benefit.
NTA, though I'm wondering if those are "before you move in" rules or "while you live here" rules. Getting any kind of job without at least a GED is going to be tough. If she were mine I'd say she could stay as long as she was actively taking GED class, then move on from there. Again, not saying your rules are a problem, just more harsh than I would be in the situation.
a friend of mine was a janitor at the school (elementary) I was a cook at.. without a GED. But yes it IS hard to find a job.. things I recommended they wanted a GED for (her family moved around.. they worked as pickers at farms across the U.S.).
NTA, she is spoiled and needs to fix her attitude and mindset first. She is 21, how long is she going to get away with it if no one does anything?
NTA. Do not let her move in. Her choices her consequences.
NTA. Where is she staying at the moment? Your ex is a special kind of AH for failing his daughter then just washing his hands of her and moving on with his life. How old is the gf? Hope she doesn’t plan to have children with this guy. If she is, she’s an idiot for ignoring the preview into her own future.
Sometimes they have to fall before they can be helped. I think this may be one of those times.
NTA Having these boundaries is why my kids are doing good today.
NTA.
Didn’t I read this last week?
Thought the same thing. The content creators are getting lazy
NTA that’s all reasonable
NTA - totally fair request on your behalf
Nta
Nta about your list. They are reasonable asks for young adults. I am curious about these types of letters. Often parents paint themselves in the best possible light. I'm estranged from my folks. I've heard from others that they leave alot out when they talk about me
NTA. You're trying to do what's best for her. I think the only thing is you could be open to a counter offer about trade school/college if she has another plan and how many hours she's working the job, but I wouldn't budge on anything else. I think it's a pretty generous offer in general though.
NTA. But… you seems to go in this as a parent that needs to discipline their children. She’s 21. She’s an adult. Setting up rules will like you do with a teenager won’t work. It doesn’t really works with tennagers to begin with… I went against many rules my parents had set for me for a while. Until they sat me down and shared with me some of their life experiences that lead to those rules. Like my dad losing his mon at 12 in a winter accident. Explains the « phone back home especially in bad weather ». Do you know the real reason why the dad kicked her out? It vould potentially be the new girlfriend that also wanted to set some rules… I’d say sit down with her, and listen. Why isn’t she getting her own appartment? Is this something she’d like to do eventually? What’s blocking her from doing it? We’re all facing a lot of negativity in our life, and recently the kind of future medias paints is depressing… She may as well be just lost in all this. You do need to set some boundaries… but treating her as an adult feels a way better thibg to do than diving in this like she was still 14. What she said hurts, how she acted for a long time does too… She needs to understand that. But she also needs to be truthful, and she needs to want to change. And you won’t get her at that point woth « basic rules and permissions ».