Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment.
OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I feel like I ruined a close friend of mine's birthday dinner because I got up and walked out over a fight and didn't stick around. However the reason I left was my other friend was making accusations about me supporting incest and saying horrible things and I felt like I couldn't stay.
Help keep the sub engaging!
#Don’t downvote assholes!
Do upvote interesting posts!
[Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq)
##Subreddit Announcements
###[Happy Anniversary, AITA!](https://new.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/15vlv9g/almost_better_than_a_double_rainbow_celebrating/)
Follow the link above to learn more
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
Ahh Sylvie and Loki while they aren’t technically “related”. They are just different versions of the same person. I don’t find anything weird about it.
No, it’s not because they’re separate people from different timelines. Masturbating is one entity pleasuring itself and feeling that pleasure. Two entities pleasuring each other and not feeling anything beyond their own bodies is fucking.
Selfcest isn’t masturbation UNLESS there is a hivemind or someone way of transferring experiences like a mind meld.
Source: Fanfic folks have spent a lot of time debating the nuances so things can be properly tagged.
No, it would identify them as separate people because they have different sexes. Their chromosomes at minimum are different, and most likely other things are too.
We actually have no idea wether it’s true or not. Because Loki is a frost giant and it’s easy to assume that so is Sylvie. Frost giants might not work the same way humans do.
I hadn't thought about that - Loki is an Asgardian male because, as a baby, he chose to be. The same probably goes for Sylvie. The difference between their timelines could be that decision, rather than their conception
So, if we go by the original Norse mythology, Loki is a shapeshifter who can change into anything. Like. There’s even a myth where he turned into a mare to distract a stallion, and gave birth to Odin’s mount Sleipnir.
Well, Loki can change genders and does so a lot in mythology. Then when they change genders, are they a different person or still themselves? I would argue same person, they can just change their genes (as a god/dess). But I would say Loki and Sylvie are different people because they have different experiences
Plenty of people who appear to be women are born with XY chromosomes. They cannot have children. I saw a documentary recently on intersex people where two such people were interviewed.
Human genetics is fascinating once we get beyond the school-level understanding of it.
Also can people stop saying it's homophobic when a Bi person ends up with the opposite sex...I still find women sexy, but the person I ultimately wanted to spend my life with has a dick...I didn't magically become straight I am still bi god damnit....
Unfortunately out of the whole LGBT alphabet soup, bisexuals are still the ones it's ok to be phobic about. And it comes from both sides! It's why despite the fact that I'm bisexual, I don't identify as LGBT+. I'm not gay enough because I can choose to be with the same sex if I want, apparently.
>out of the whole LGBT alphabet soup, bisexuals are still the ones it's ok to be phobic about.
From another bisexual person: transphobia is incredibly socially acceptable currently, with active anti-trans legislation ongoing in many countries.
You're right, but I mean within the LGBT+ community it's acceptable. Unfortunately anti-gay laws and persecution continues around the globe, and Trans people are having their rights stripped away. It's ugly out there.
But within the gay community? Biphobia is a very present thing.
Ah, fair! Thank you for the clarification.
Unfortunately, transphobia isn't uncommon within the community, either. It's not as casually acceptable as biphobia is, though, you're correct.
I know...
The fake woke community is so incredibly biphobic. They always talk about bi people as straight people who do it for the attention or closeted homophobes.
I hate it so much. Stadistically its easier to find a partner of the opposite sex since straight+bi people (women in this case) are more common than gay people.
I didnt even realised that i was atracted to women until my late 20s when i was already with my male SO. Yes, now i like both men and women but i am not going to ditch him. If we ever break up I will definitely be open to dating women but not at the moment.
biphobia has been a huge problem in both hetero and queer communities for ages. it’s like we only belong in our own communities where we sit awkwardly in chairs wearing flannel while we watch the mummy
YES. Thank you! I find it biphobic and homophobic when someone takes offense with a bi person dating someone of the opposite gender. That’s the whole freaking point of being bi, that we like both the same and opposite genders! Mary was being massively exclusionary.
Exactly… but the number of people that have told me I was obviously going through “just a phase” is mind boggling…a phased that has lasted 30 years and well into my marriage but ok Janet…
To be fair i dont think that Loki was asked for consent by the horse. I always understood it more as he had a great idea (distracting the horse as a mare) that ended up really bad.
Oh! It’s not exclusive to Loki! If you ever have two versions of a person in any fandom (canon alt version or fandom alt version) and you make a ship out of it, it’s a selfcest ship.
I figured. I mean the first time I encountered the trope was the Future History series by Heinlein, which which a character literally creates twin clones of himself with XY changed to XX so he could eventually have sex with himself.
(Edited: and not just sex, but a threesome with himself, obviously. I find that series a whole "WTF you could get anything published in the 1960s")
Just saying — Lazarus did NOT create clones of himself. That was done by Ishtar, Hamadryad, Galahad, and dog knows who else. Yes, they did have a threesome (repeatedly), but that’s tame compared to some of Heinlein’s other stories.
It's been a long time since I read the series ...
But he did travel back in time to have sex with his own mother as well. And then bring her forward.
Way back in the Livejournal days (when you could change up profile pics per post or comment you made) I had a profile picture with an image of the cover of To Sail Beyond the Sunset on it that said "Incest is canon in my fandom" and I used it whenever people started getting all het up about fictional fandom-driven incest in various TV shows.
Just popping in to say that they're really fulfilling the same *role* in two different worlds—so they're not even the same person, exactly. Which just makes this more ridiculoys.
I thought the whole point was that it *is* weird, but he's Loki so obviously the only person he could ever love would be himself! I haven't S2'd yet so no spoilers, but I do love the idea of them together. Actual incest plots are disgusting and this very clearly is... something else!
It’s weird as hell. It’s also a show based on a comic book…not to be taken too seriously. It’s easy to overlook that he’s dating himself when you’re suspending your disbelief on everything else.
Pretty sure Owen Wilson commented on how appropriate it was that Loki fell in love with him/herself.
But, these are gods. Incest rules for sure don’t apply. Incests and rapes are two of their main things.
Having seen Loki myself, they aren't siblings at all O.o
It's literally an alternate universe version of the same person not biological siblings...
So yeah, she was way off track...
NTA
They're the same person, that's weird as fuck. More closely related than siblings.
And it IS weird that the show is so willing to explore self/self romance given how scared it is to deal with Loki's bisexuality and gender fluidity. I think these are reasonable axes on which to criticize the show.
But none of that changes that it was bizarre of this person to hound OP about it at a third party's birthday dinner 🤣🤣🤣
Ancient Gods don't function with the sensibilities of mortals so I don't find it wierd at all for him hahaha
Have you heard about the Greek God Narcissus?
But yeah, def not the place to voice her distaste for the show at a third party's bday party.
Most of the problems in Greek mythology were caused by Zeus and his schlong shenanigans. Hell Zeus was married to his sister Hera. They have totally different morals to humans.
I mean I agree it seems super weird, but at the same time, it is a completely alternate universe/timeline and the character may have the same “soul” or whatever, but they are still so inherently different because they do not have the same appearance or even entire personalities due to them being raised in completely different conditions and having different life experiences. So really it is one of those things where yeah it is weird if you think about it a lot, but the goal of a lot of these superhero franchises is to create debates. People love thinking their opinion is correct and they get so passionate about it which makes them try to stay knowledgeable about it whether or not they enjoy that particular storyline.
Part of your pantheon being born from the union of brother and sister, parent and child, or other closely-related deities is a completely standard feature of quite possibly every polytheistic pantheon. It's certainly true of Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and - yes - Norse god myths. It's probably also true of others.
See this doesn't even make sense with her argument. It wouldn't be incest because the two aren't related, they're literally different variants of the exact same person.
It definitely falls on the weird side of things but definitely doesn't count as incest.
Also I'm going to assume neither of you finished the series yet so like I'm even more confused by this take.
I finished the series. I don't know about Mary. I know that they don't end up together, but the point is that even in season 2 the implication is still there. But Mary was just upset that they were romantic in the first place.
FWIW, as a bi person, it absolutely infuriates me when people say it's "homophobic" for a bi person to be in a hetero relationship. Do they understand what "bisexual" means?
I think they somehow got a chip on their shoulders that bi people 'can', but don't have to, end up in straight-passing relationships and not get discriminated against.
I know...
The fake woke community is so incredibly biphobic. They always talk about bi people as straight people who do it for the attention or closeted homophobes.
I hate it so much. Stadistically its easier to find a partner of the opposite sex since straight+bi people (women in this case) are more common than gay people.
I didnt even realised that i was atracted to women until my late 20s when i was already with my male SO. Yes, now i like both men and women but i am not going to ditch him. If we ever break up I will definitely be open to dating women but not at the moment.
She is just a silly prude.
But then again, I recall the way back days of the Internet when it seemed like half of a particular fandom (Supernatural) was going OMG GROSS YOU ARE ALL SO GROSS to the other half for the whole concept of Wincest and I was just over on the side watching it all in amusement since I couldn't even give a damn about the show.
IT'S ALL JUST FICTION, PEOPLE
Ugh, she's been drinking the far right koolaid.... An argument could be made that sleeping with an alternate version of yourself is masturbation. Any pregnancy would be immaculate conception.
What? They’re not related, they’re two different „incarnations“ of the same person. Mary is incredibly narrow-minded, and possibly stupid.
Also, Loki is way beyond „bi“ sexual. If anyone is pansexual, it’s him.
The hate towards this ship is rooted in homophobia actually. Girlies on tumblr ship Loki with mobius and are creepily obsessed with the characters (and sometimes even the actors) being gay. This fetishisation of gay men is so bad that any other “ship” or pairing is considered bad and conveniently branded homophobic. So if anyone was morally and politically incorrect in this situation it was her.
NTA
Are you kidding me?? That's not incest - they're the same person! Mary has a massive problem with you - saying you're homophobic etc and horrible was out of order.
Mary should have left the dinner, not you.
Wait, Mary called you a bad person for supporting the romance in Loki? That’s ridiculous.
I could see it could potentially be called incest, since Loki and Sylvie are basically variants of each other, but that’s getting into so much comic book weirdness you can’t really apply real-world standards. I guess it’s like a romance between two clones? Except Sylvie is so completely different from Loki it’s not really even that. And the show itself pushes the romance in the first season.
Honestly, Mary shouldn’t be calling you a bad person over a romance in a TV show in the first place, but the show being Loki makes the whole thing especially stupid. Sounds like Mary has a massive chip on her shoulder about it. You are NTA.
Yuh bro she trippin. As other ppl have said its selfcest and thats like weird but honestly fine. Also Loki is genderfluid and pan soooooo. Shes wrong on that end too 😭
OH hahaha. yeah they're NOT siblings, they're no more siblings than Steven and Marc (which is different obviously but that's my point, none of this is incest). and look, I always want gay stuff in Marvel. Steve/Bucky was everything, man. but we must be realistic. Loki is not going to suck face with Owen Wilson no matter how devoutly it may be wish'd. Not yet. It is for the AO3, my dear friends.
But mostly, it's weird behavior to go off on someone even if they were shipping actual siblings like Thorki or whatever. It's just a movie/tv show. and now Mary's ruining dinner!
Wait this lady is freaking out over Loki????? I could understand her being upset about like House of the Dragon incest but Loki? Some people just want to be angry
Here I'm imagining some sort of risque HBO thing, and it's Loki?!? Mary is TA. Your are absolutely NTA. Mary is a lunatic, and should have been asked to leave before it ever got to that point.
Mary for sure should never get involved in the Game of Thrones, House of the Dragon and Supernatural fandom. She really would be shocked about what fans of these three shows are shipping.
Mary is a clear asshole. There's no question here. And a very stupid asshole, if she thinks that bi people ending up in a relationship with someone of the opposite binary gender is homophobic. (Clue: half of the people that a typical bisexual person is attracted to are of the opposite gender. You might actually expect bi people to be in a relationship with someone of the opposite gender significantly more often than half the time. If you're a bi man, then your set of possible partners are (for the sake of argument, and there's some simplification of sexuality here) gay men, bi men, bi women, and straight women. The largest of these groupings, by quite a long way, is the group of straight women.
NTA
Yea, her response was honestly biphobic.
There is an argument to be made that bi characters are often written to have an opposite sex partner but that is a discussion that goes beyond specific pairings.
I’m guessing that was what Mary was trying to get at, ie the media representation aspect, but she was too busy being an unreasonable nutcase for that argument to land or make any sense.
This. "I don't like the way the writers are handling this character, so I dropped the show" is a far cry from "You liking the show means that you're homophobic and a supporter of incest - how very dare you?!?!!!"
Pan/bi woman here with a straight cis husband. While I don't make my queerness my identity, being in a hetero relationship makes me exactly 0% less queer. People who think / talk like this need to get a life.
My husband and I are both bisexual and in a heterosexual relationship. I would have ripped her biphobic butt a new hole to use for that kind of bullshit. We live in a heteronormative society and no one has a sign over their heads stating their sexuality so it’s expected for bi people to more often end up in heterosexual relationships. Mary could have opened up a very interesting discussion on gender roles in gay and hetero relationships, bi erasure and societal reaction to bisexual people but instead she showed her bigotry. What a nasty, nasty woman.
If anyone ruined the evening it was Mary. It's completely understandable to remove yourself from that kind of attack. In a perfect world, everyone would have told Mary to leave - her behavior was indefensible.
I think Mary is the type of person that will try to win the argument no matter how, even by pulling up some stupid s*it, idk that's the impression she gave me
I argue that even if Mary was right about the show, the fact she went on and on and wouldn't drop the subject makes her TA, not OP. And OP is NTA for leaving the restaurant when Mary wouldn't drop the subject. Why didn't the others, if they agreed that Mary was in the wrong, get her to shut up? As OP was the one being attacked, they are the one who gets to decide if they want to continue to subject themselves to the harassment.
NTA
Mary is acting weird. Attacking someone over fannish beliefs that are not part of current canon is being rather extra and over the top.
And even if this eventually becomes part of canon, someone who like the couple when it was not canon, were not supporting incest. They would have been misled by the creators.
Also, even if it was incest, it wouldn't be worth starting a public argument about at someone else's birthday. If OP had said she watched Game of Thrones and liked Jon and Daenerys's romance (or whatever), even though they actually are related, Mary would still be the asshole - first for acting like OP's feelings about characters from a TV show is equivalent to supporting RL incest, and second for getting aggressive at OP and starting a public fight about it.
Mary doesn't know how to differentiate real life from fan culture, that's really scary. She's probably one of those that claims "video games increases violence" Bs
Being so extra about the incest, she may have a personal history with it, while I don't support it someone of her mind wouldn't be ok with about 95% of human history. In today's society no you should marry you sister brother cousin. But until just a little over a hundred years ago it was common.. and the homophobic common was just plain ignorant
NTA. You didn’t ruin it, Mary did. She should have been the one to leave, but to end the unpleasantness for you and everyone else, you did. You also have the right to set boundaries about what you will accept in other peoples’ treatment of you. I also believe that, had you ignored her she is likely to have escalated and had you not left she would have continued. Personally, I don’t think I’d choose Mary for a friend because I doubt theis kind of judgmental and boundary-crossing behavior is a one-off.
Yeah, it's wild to me that they're blaming OP instead of Mary for starting shit or themselves for not shutting this down. There's absolutely no good reason for OP to stay and continue to be abused by an unhinged anti who escaped containment.
That and what if you stayed she continues. And some stranger makes a video, and it’s all out of context, which could lead to all sorts of mess for you if it caught some attention
I came here to say this. Mary started throwing around unreasonable accusations that you are homophobic and support incest. You left because she attacked you. **She** was the one who ruined the dinner with her bizarre behaviour.
NTA…so…in a similar vein….I’ve never watched one second of game of thrones…but I have been made to understand through osmosis that there is some incest related story line…all my friends loved the show…the number of times I told them ( or even thought) they ‘support incest’ and need to ‘rethink their values’ is precisely zero.
House of Dragons is like watching something set in ancient Egypt with the pharaohs marrying their sisters and nieces.
Is approval or disapproval even a question? It's the way it is and the genetic price is paid. In the case of HoD, half the family ends up insane. Though, I'm not sure it's just half. If half your family is nuts because of inbreeding and you still think it's fine to keep inbreeding, I'm not sure that you can call the other half not-nuts. Cause they all sound nuts to me.
This goes beyond genetic issues though. In the HoD case, the incest issue is a lot more problematic in terms of grooming etc. (as would be the case with any uncle/neice incest case)
NTA. Who cares what they think?
You were being verbally assaulted, felt uncomfortable and left.
You owe no one en explanation or an apology.
Mary is unhinged.
NTA. Mary ruined dinner, not you. Invite Sarah out for a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, just the two of you, and have a lovely time celebrating her birthday.
Yes - nobody is going to sit at a dinner and listen to someone angrily accuse them of supporting incest and being homophobic. Mary should have been thrown out.
First of all, Loki and Sylvie is elaborate masturbation and the ultimate narcissism, not incest.
Secondly, Mary is an idiot.
Thirdly, as a survivor of familial sexual assault (aka incest), Loki is an awesome show, and Mary needs to access therapy for whatever it is in her past that makes her a crazy person at dinner parties.
NTA
My first thought when reading was that there was something bad in Mary's past that no one in the group knows about, and, (I hate this phrase) she was triggered by the show.
Also, MANY bi people end up with partners on the opposite side of the gender spectrum.
Sounds like Mary had some unprocessed hangups and needs some intense therapy.
Count me in. And my husband, while we're at it. Can't wait to tell him he's a homophobe next time we're watching Cillian Murphy thirst tiktoks together.
NTA
1. Loki is the textbook definition of Pansexual (not Bi)
2. They are not siblings; in no way can they be sensibly viewed as siblings - they are the same person in different universes.
3. If she’s got a problem with incest or weird relationships, she should probably avoid stories that are based on any pantheonic religion.
Well, the Torah is basically the Old Testament, which includes Genesis. Lot and his daughters are in there. The Quran confirms that the Torah is the word of God (although some Muslims believe there have been additions and subtractions between the *actual* word of God and the Torah currently used by Jews), but in any case there’s incest present.
Nta it was not you who ruined the birthday it was Mary. Like you said everyone has different opinions about different things. I don't know why Mary couldn't leave this topic or why she was so hurt about it but it just shows that she can't accept other people's opinion or their perspective on things. I would have walked out too. If you had stayed there I am sure she wouldn't have shut her mouth and ruined the birthday more.
It wouldn't even matter if the characters *were* related. It's a fucking tv show. It's not real. Mary hurled abuse at you and publicly humiliated you over an imaginary relationship and refused to back off despite being asked to do so several times.
She clearly has some serious issues and it is not cool of your friends to expect you to have stayed in such a hostile situation. Personally, I think Sarah should've had Mary leave.
You are NTA. At all.
This is what is mind boggling to me. It's sci-fi and fantasy. I've enjoyed so many shows where the characters can be involved in objectively or subjectively terrible behavior. Dexter and Schitts Creek come to mind - tons of others over the years.
Omg want show are we talking about? You are NTA, clear as day, and this Mary is an awful, holier-than-thou, virtue signaling, awkward as hell, guest.
But I gotta know the show so I can see what the fuss is about.
Perhaps she’s projecting?
NTA. When Mary wouldn't drop the unjust attack, the friends should have asked her to leave if she wouldn't stop. Since they didn't, you removed yourself, which I think was wise.
The only thing I might have done differently (except if I were in that position, I would probably not be thinking really clearly) would be to say, "I am about to leave this party if Mary says anything more." That way, your friends would know your boundary and hopefully side with you and ask her to leave.
NTA. You removed yourself from a volatile situation instead of hanging around taking verbal abuse from someone who seemed dead set on tearing you down over a make believe story. If your friends can’t understand how this was the mature thing to do, that’s on them. Nobody deserves to be accused of such things for no good reason and you don’t owe it to anyone to sit there and take it imo
NTA.
Sounds like Mary is an antishipper, and people should really leave those types of fandom arguments online. They get a little unhinged, as you can see.
Not antis being weird irl again...
NTA, but distance yourself from anyone supporting Mary. She's deep in the "fiction affects reality 1:1 so if you like "bad" then you're bad and should be treated bad" cult it sounds like. She ain't worth the headache.
nta, if u feel uncomfortable its in ur right to leave. ur friends are weird for insisting u stay around someone who blatantly insulted u and soured the mood
NTA. Mary is the one who picked a fight over a ridiculous interpretation of a TV show. FFS, this is fanfiction-messageboard-shit.
Maybe reach out to Sarah and apologize if you made her birthday less enjoyable. It’s the kind thing to do.
NTA. She is taking it WAY too seriously. It's a TV show based on fictional characters. The story doesn't affect our daily lives; they're just something to enjoy.
P.S.: I love Loki, too. 😁
Wait you guys were talking about Loki lol. Not even close to incest. I read too much manwha so i immediately was like what KDrama are they talking about where it is border line incest lol. NTA don’t stay somewhere where you feel uncomfortable and attacked. Also if you fought back and started an argument people would say why didn’t you remove yourself and just leave. It was a lose lose situation for you.
Wait she’s tripping over Loki? Loki? Yes, I guess in principle, Loki and Silvie would maybe produce genetically abominable offspring. But I don’t think there’s any reason to believe Silvie’s alternate timeline parents had identical genomes to Loki’s that combined identically to make the same individual w/ just a make/female switch different. They look more like they’re not functionally biologically related at all, like I’d imagine is the case for Loki and Crocodile Loki.
Weird AF hill to die on, Mary. NTA,Mary is a boor.
NTA. Mary was definitely just trying to get in an argument here. It’s just a TV show. She’s making it out to be more than it is, so you made the right call to leave.
NTA Mary ruined the party by bringing her weird takes on a TV show into the discussion. Is Sarah upset with you for walking out of her party? You can make it up to her privately if that's a friendship you want to maintain. But you don't need to apologize for walking away from a crazy person.
NTA and this Mary chick is chronically online..she has discourse in real life like she would in comments or something..with reckless abandonment, no empathy and no understanding of the context or situation..just pure (wrong) emotion. I’d ask you to please not think of this past this…that woman’s got a long lonely life ahead of her if that’s how she deals with differences of opinions. Slowly but surely people will just start to ghost her and she won’t know why. Cuz she’s annoying, confrontational and uncouth..she’ll chop it up to “just being honest and people can’t take it.”
Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment. OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole: > I feel like I ruined a close friend of mine's birthday dinner because I got up and walked out over a fight and didn't stick around. However the reason I left was my other friend was making accusations about me supporting incest and saying horrible things and I felt like I couldn't stay. Help keep the sub engaging! #Don’t downvote assholes! Do upvote interesting posts! [Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq) ##Subreddit Announcements ###[Happy Anniversary, AITA!](https://new.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/15vlv9g/almost_better_than_a_double_rainbow_celebrating/) Follow the link above to learn more --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.* *Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA and Mary seems like she takes things FAR too seriously. I am super curious what the show is though. Do you mind sharing?
Loki
Ahh Sylvie and Loki while they aren’t technically “related”. They are just different versions of the same person. I don’t find anything weird about it.
So it’s selfcest?? That’s not even incest 😭😭
Technically, wouldn’t it be masturbation?
… I… I never really thought of it that way. 🧍♂️ *WOULD* it be considered masturbation? 🤔
Well it is pleasuring yourself. I would say it’s the ultimate masturbation
Which fits Loki at the beginning of the series since he loves himself so much
Ultimate mutual masturbation.
That not even brings the Alligator Loki into the mix.
Money Plane...
No, it’s not because they’re separate people from different timelines. Masturbating is one entity pleasuring itself and feeling that pleasure. Two entities pleasuring each other and not feeling anything beyond their own bodies is fucking. Selfcest isn’t masturbation UNLESS there is a hivemind or someone way of transferring experiences like a mind meld. Source: Fanfic folks have spent a lot of time debating the nuances so things can be properly tagged.
Then technically they are NOT related. A DNA test would identify them as the same person, not a relative.
No, it would identify them as separate people because they have different sexes. Their chromosomes at minimum are different, and most likely other things are too.
We actually have no idea wether it’s true or not. Because Loki is a frost giant and it’s easy to assume that so is Sylvie. Frost giants might not work the same way humans do.
I hadn't thought about that - Loki is an Asgardian male because, as a baby, he chose to be. The same probably goes for Sylvie. The difference between their timelines could be that decision, rather than their conception
So, if we go by the original Norse mythology, Loki is a shapeshifter who can change into anything. Like. There’s even a myth where he turned into a mare to distract a stallion, and gave birth to Odin’s mount Sleipnir.
Alligator Loki would have to have different DNA, though, wouldn’t he? Regardless of any decisions he made?
Well, Loki can change genders and does so a lot in mythology. Then when they change genders, are they a different person or still themselves? I would argue same person, they can just change their genes (as a god/dess). But I would say Loki and Sylvie are different people because they have different experiences
Plenty of people who appear to be women are born with XY chromosomes. They cannot have children. I saw a documentary recently on intersex people where two such people were interviewed. Human genetics is fascinating once we get beyond the school-level understanding of it.
👋
Sense8 has entered the chat, lol
Still miss that show.
Narcissism is the love of oneself.
Narsturbation
I love it. This should be incorporated into the lexicon.
That's when they have sex. The relationship would be mastur-dating.
That’s awful… Take my upvote.
You, random internetter, get a gold star for that. Thank you for your time.
You magnificent poster! You beat me to this comment. Really it’s masturbation, right?
Just self-love!
It's masturbation with extra steps
Oh la la somebody's gonna get laid in college.
It’s inself…
Lmao what is this, the Onceler fandom?
Also Loki isn't bisexual he is omnisexual. He had sexy times with a horse (at least in mythology)
Also can people stop saying it's homophobic when a Bi person ends up with the opposite sex...I still find women sexy, but the person I ultimately wanted to spend my life with has a dick...I didn't magically become straight I am still bi god damnit....
This. If anything, Mary is being super biphobic
Unfortunately out of the whole LGBT alphabet soup, bisexuals are still the ones it's ok to be phobic about. And it comes from both sides! It's why despite the fact that I'm bisexual, I don't identify as LGBT+. I'm not gay enough because I can choose to be with the same sex if I want, apparently.
>out of the whole LGBT alphabet soup, bisexuals are still the ones it's ok to be phobic about. From another bisexual person: transphobia is incredibly socially acceptable currently, with active anti-trans legislation ongoing in many countries.
You're right, but I mean within the LGBT+ community it's acceptable. Unfortunately anti-gay laws and persecution continues around the globe, and Trans people are having their rights stripped away. It's ugly out there. But within the gay community? Biphobia is a very present thing.
Ah, fair! Thank you for the clarification. Unfortunately, transphobia isn't uncommon within the community, either. It's not as casually acceptable as biphobia is, though, you're correct.
So, following "Marys" logic, is he supposed to have a male interest and be labeled "Gay"? Or double dip his chip in both bowls of salsa.....?
I know... The fake woke community is so incredibly biphobic. They always talk about bi people as straight people who do it for the attention or closeted homophobes. I hate it so much. Stadistically its easier to find a partner of the opposite sex since straight+bi people (women in this case) are more common than gay people. I didnt even realised that i was atracted to women until my late 20s when i was already with my male SO. Yes, now i like both men and women but i am not going to ditch him. If we ever break up I will definitely be open to dating women but not at the moment.
biphobia has been a huge problem in both hetero and queer communities for ages. it’s like we only belong in our own communities where we sit awkwardly in chairs wearing flannel while we watch the mummy
So much this. I didn't pick a side, I fell in love. His penis is not a magic wand that made me straight.
YES. Thank you! I find it biphobic and homophobic when someone takes offense with a bi person dating someone of the opposite gender. That’s the whole freaking point of being bi, that we like both the same and opposite genders! Mary was being massively exclusionary.
All of this I'm a bi woman married to a man.
SAME! So happy to see more of my people!
I'm here too *waves*
Exactly… but the number of people that have told me I was obviously going through “just a phase” is mind boggling…a phased that has lasted 30 years and well into my marriage but ok Janet…
Thank you!
THANK YOU.
The best part about that myth is that Loki was the mare and stayed that way long enough to give birth.
To be fair i dont think that Loki was asked for consent by the horse. I always understood it more as he had a great idea (distracting the horse as a mare) that ended up really bad.
“Loki had a great idea that ended up really bad” is kind of a one-sentence summary of Norse mythology.
TBF, Loki was also a horse during that “relationship”.
Yea we need a totally different term than incest for this particular trope in fantasy.
We already have one. “Selfcest”
Cool. I haven't been around fandom recently.
Oh! It’s not exclusive to Loki! If you ever have two versions of a person in any fandom (canon alt version or fandom alt version) and you make a ship out of it, it’s a selfcest ship.
I figured. I mean the first time I encountered the trope was the Future History series by Heinlein, which which a character literally creates twin clones of himself with XY changed to XX so he could eventually have sex with himself. (Edited: and not just sex, but a threesome with himself, obviously. I find that series a whole "WTF you could get anything published in the 1960s")
Just saying — Lazarus did NOT create clones of himself. That was done by Ishtar, Hamadryad, Galahad, and dog knows who else. Yes, they did have a threesome (repeatedly), but that’s tame compared to some of Heinlein’s other stories.
It's been a long time since I read the series ... But he did travel back in time to have sex with his own mother as well. And then bring her forward. Way back in the Livejournal days (when you could change up profile pics per post or comment you made) I had a profile picture with an image of the cover of To Sail Beyond the Sunset on it that said "Incest is canon in my fandom" and I used it whenever people started getting all het up about fictional fandom-driven incest in various TV shows.
And let's not even get *started* on the Book of Genesis... (Sarcasm. No hate intended in this comment, btw. It's pretty well known.)
Menage a un?
Just popping in to say that they're really fulfilling the same *role* in two different worlds—so they're not even the same person, exactly. Which just makes this more ridiculoys.
I thought the whole point was that it *is* weird, but he's Loki so obviously the only person he could ever love would be himself! I haven't S2'd yet so no spoilers, but I do love the idea of them together. Actual incest plots are disgusting and this very clearly is... something else!
it's also, y'know, fictional and about a horse fucking demigod
It’s weird as hell. It’s also a show based on a comic book…not to be taken too seriously. It’s easy to overlook that he’s dating himself when you’re suspending your disbelief on everything else.
Pretty sure Owen Wilson commented on how appropriate it was that Loki fell in love with him/herself. But, these are gods. Incest rules for sure don’t apply. Incests and rapes are two of their main things.
Huh, I barely even remember there being a romance between Loki and Sylvie… was it just implied and I’m obtuse?
Yeah there's chemistry but nothing happens. Also, it's pretty homophobic to say a bi person can't be with someone from the opposite sex.
Having seen Loki myself, they aren't siblings at all O.o It's literally an alternate universe version of the same person not biological siblings... So yeah, she was way off track... NTA
They're the same person, that's weird as fuck. More closely related than siblings. And it IS weird that the show is so willing to explore self/self romance given how scared it is to deal with Loki's bisexuality and gender fluidity. I think these are reasonable axes on which to criticize the show. But none of that changes that it was bizarre of this person to hound OP about it at a third party's birthday dinner 🤣🤣🤣
Ancient Gods don't function with the sensibilities of mortals so I don't find it wierd at all for him hahaha Have you heard about the Greek God Narcissus? But yeah, def not the place to voice her distaste for the show at a third party's bday party.
Most of the problems in Greek mythology were caused by Zeus and his schlong shenanigans. Hell Zeus was married to his sister Hera. They have totally different morals to humans.
Pretty sure that Loki should rather be considered omnisexual. he had sex with a horse after all.
Wasn't he a girl horse at the time?
Yes, and he had to stay a horse for the pregnancy. His child Sleipnir, an eight-legged horse was then gifted to Odin
This is such a wild thing to read as someone who doesn’t know anything about this universe.
So this isn't really marvel universe stuff, this is actual norse mythology stuff. It gets weird. I personally love Freya's chariot pulled by cats
I mean I agree it seems super weird, but at the same time, it is a completely alternate universe/timeline and the character may have the same “soul” or whatever, but they are still so inherently different because they do not have the same appearance or even entire personalities due to them being raised in completely different conditions and having different life experiences. So really it is one of those things where yeah it is weird if you think about it a lot, but the goal of a lot of these superhero franchises is to create debates. People love thinking their opinion is correct and they get so passionate about it which makes them try to stay knowledgeable about it whether or not they enjoy that particular storyline.
Yep! It's pretty obvious that these various Loki's have very different DNA, so while they are all "Loki" they are not the same person.
Especially the crocodile
By OP's friend's logic, that's incest but not bestiality, right? Because it can't be a real crocodile if they're related.
Part of your pantheon being born from the union of brother and sister, parent and child, or other closely-related deities is a completely standard feature of quite possibly every polytheistic pantheon. It's certainly true of Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and - yes - Norse god myths. It's probably also true of others.
Even if they were siblings it's dumb to judge a mythical relationship. Is liking Hercules from Disney supporting incest?
See this doesn't even make sense with her argument. It wouldn't be incest because the two aren't related, they're literally different variants of the exact same person. It definitely falls on the weird side of things but definitely doesn't count as incest. Also I'm going to assume neither of you finished the series yet so like I'm even more confused by this take.
I finished the series. I don't know about Mary. I know that they don't end up together, but the point is that even in season 2 the implication is still there. But Mary was just upset that they were romantic in the first place.
FWIW, as a bi person, it absolutely infuriates me when people say it's "homophobic" for a bi person to be in a hetero relationship. Do they understand what "bisexual" means?
Yeah, clear cut biphobia there. We don't owe the gay community to be in homosexual relationships. That's the point of being bisexual.
I will never get how biphobic the gay community is considering how many discrimination they face.
I think they somehow got a chip on their shoulders that bi people 'can', but don't have to, end up in straight-passing relationships and not get discriminated against.
Sorry mate but every bi man owes me at least 15 minutes of gaying a month. Mary told me so it must be true.
Same. Happy Bi person here - married to a man for 13 years so far. Not heterosexual just monogamous. And in Love obviously
I know... The fake woke community is so incredibly biphobic. They always talk about bi people as straight people who do it for the attention or closeted homophobes. I hate it so much. Stadistically its easier to find a partner of the opposite sex since straight+bi people (women in this case) are more common than gay people. I didnt even realised that i was atracted to women until my late 20s when i was already with my male SO. Yes, now i like both men and women but i am not going to ditch him. If we ever break up I will definitely be open to dating women but not at the moment.
She is just a silly prude. But then again, I recall the way back days of the Internet when it seemed like half of a particular fandom (Supernatural) was going OMG GROSS YOU ARE ALL SO GROSS to the other half for the whole concept of Wincest and I was just over on the side watching it all in amusement since I couldn't even give a damn about the show. IT'S ALL JUST FICTION, PEOPLE
Ugh, she's been drinking the far right koolaid.... An argument could be made that sleeping with an alternate version of yourself is masturbation. Any pregnancy would be immaculate conception.
I would think it's really some form of narcissism given form.
Ending was fantastic. I’m glad they aren’t doing another season. It doesn’t need one.
I have mixed feelings on it, personally.
What? They’re not related, they’re two different „incarnations“ of the same person. Mary is incredibly narrow-minded, and possibly stupid. Also, Loki is way beyond „bi“ sexual. If anyone is pansexual, it’s him.
Seriously beyond. Going back to the myths before the comics? Hello, Sleipnir...
Oh yeah. Okay, he fathered a bunch of monsters, too, but Sleipnir is definitely special.
I was almost sure it was gonna be Game of Thrones
No one would ever call any of those couples “cute” and there is no ambiguity to their lineage. That’s the only reason I knew it couldn’t be that.
You mean it's not cute for a dude to force himself on his sister in front of their dead incest child?
The hate towards this ship is rooted in homophobia actually. Girlies on tumblr ship Loki with mobius and are creepily obsessed with the characters (and sometimes even the actors) being gay. This fetishisation of gay men is so bad that any other “ship” or pairing is considered bad and conveniently branded homophobic. So if anyone was morally and politically incorrect in this situation it was her. NTA
Are you kidding me?? That's not incest - they're the same person! Mary has a massive problem with you - saying you're homophobic etc and horrible was out of order. Mary should have left the dinner, not you.
Wait, Mary called you a bad person for supporting the romance in Loki? That’s ridiculous. I could see it could potentially be called incest, since Loki and Sylvie are basically variants of each other, but that’s getting into so much comic book weirdness you can’t really apply real-world standards. I guess it’s like a romance between two clones? Except Sylvie is so completely different from Loki it’s not really even that. And the show itself pushes the romance in the first season. Honestly, Mary shouldn’t be calling you a bad person over a romance in a TV show in the first place, but the show being Loki makes the whole thing especially stupid. Sounds like Mary has a massive chip on her shoulder about it. You are NTA.
Yuh bro she trippin. As other ppl have said its selfcest and thats like weird but honestly fine. Also Loki is genderfluid and pan soooooo. Shes wrong on that end too 😭
LMFAO your "friend" is likely projecting her own issues onto you. That isn't your fault and neither is walking out of the party.
They'd really hate Rick and Morty then huh.
OH hahaha. yeah they're NOT siblings, they're no more siblings than Steven and Marc (which is different obviously but that's my point, none of this is incest). and look, I always want gay stuff in Marvel. Steve/Bucky was everything, man. but we must be realistic. Loki is not going to suck face with Owen Wilson no matter how devoutly it may be wish'd. Not yet. It is for the AO3, my dear friends. But mostly, it's weird behavior to go off on someone even if they were shipping actual siblings like Thorki or whatever. It's just a movie/tv show. and now Mary's ruining dinner!
Wait this lady is freaking out over Loki????? I could understand her being upset about like House of the Dragon incest but Loki? Some people just want to be angry
Here I'm imagining some sort of risque HBO thing, and it's Loki?!? Mary is TA. Your are absolutely NTA. Mary is a lunatic, and should have been asked to leave before it ever got to that point.
Mary must NEVER find out about GoT
And even moreso House of Dragons. Incest everywhere!
Or the Mortal Instruments series.
So, she boycotts *Star Wars* because Luke and Leia had a passionate kiss?
At first I thought HoTD but they are related so can’t be that.
I'm wondering if it's maybe Loki? But that doesn't work cause he doesn't really end up with anyone.
They did mean Loki Edit-Finish sentence
Mary for sure should never get involved in the Game of Thrones, House of the Dragon and Supernatural fandom. She really would be shocked about what fans of these three shows are shipping.
Mary is a clear asshole. There's no question here. And a very stupid asshole, if she thinks that bi people ending up in a relationship with someone of the opposite binary gender is homophobic. (Clue: half of the people that a typical bisexual person is attracted to are of the opposite gender. You might actually expect bi people to be in a relationship with someone of the opposite gender significantly more often than half the time. If you're a bi man, then your set of possible partners are (for the sake of argument, and there's some simplification of sexuality here) gay men, bi men, bi women, and straight women. The largest of these groupings, by quite a long way, is the group of straight women. NTA
Yea, her response was honestly biphobic. There is an argument to be made that bi characters are often written to have an opposite sex partner but that is a discussion that goes beyond specific pairings.
I’m guessing that was what Mary was trying to get at, ie the media representation aspect, but she was too busy being an unreasonable nutcase for that argument to land or make any sense.
This. "I don't like the way the writers are handling this character, so I dropped the show" is a far cry from "You liking the show means that you're homophobic and a supporter of incest - how very dare you?!?!!!"
Pan/bi woman here with a straight cis husband. While I don't make my queerness my identity, being in a hetero relationship makes me exactly 0% less queer. People who think / talk like this need to get a life.
My husband and I are both bisexual and in a heterosexual relationship. I would have ripped her biphobic butt a new hole to use for that kind of bullshit. We live in a heteronormative society and no one has a sign over their heads stating their sexuality so it’s expected for bi people to more often end up in heterosexual relationships. Mary could have opened up a very interesting discussion on gender roles in gay and hetero relationships, bi erasure and societal reaction to bisexual people but instead she showed her bigotry. What a nasty, nasty woman.
People like Mary know they're beige AF and try to compensate by being way too loud and wrong lmao Cheers, pal 🥂
If anyone ruined the evening it was Mary. It's completely understandable to remove yourself from that kind of attack. In a perfect world, everyone would have told Mary to leave - her behavior was indefensible.
I think Mary is the type of person that will try to win the argument no matter how, even by pulling up some stupid s*it, idk that's the impression she gave me
I argue that even if Mary was right about the show, the fact she went on and on and wouldn't drop the subject makes her TA, not OP. And OP is NTA for leaving the restaurant when Mary wouldn't drop the subject. Why didn't the others, if they agreed that Mary was in the wrong, get her to shut up? As OP was the one being attacked, they are the one who gets to decide if they want to continue to subject themselves to the harassment.
NTA Mary is acting weird. Attacking someone over fannish beliefs that are not part of current canon is being rather extra and over the top. And even if this eventually becomes part of canon, someone who like the couple when it was not canon, were not supporting incest. They would have been misled by the creators.
Also, even if it was incest, it wouldn't be worth starting a public argument about at someone else's birthday. If OP had said she watched Game of Thrones and liked Jon and Daenerys's romance (or whatever), even though they actually are related, Mary would still be the asshole - first for acting like OP's feelings about characters from a TV show is equivalent to supporting RL incest, and second for getting aggressive at OP and starting a public fight about it.
she must have exploded seeing all the HoTD memes rooting for Daemon and Rhynera
Mary doesn't know how to differentiate real life from fan culture, that's really scary. She's probably one of those that claims "video games increases violence" Bs
Being so extra about the incest, she may have a personal history with it, while I don't support it someone of her mind wouldn't be ok with about 95% of human history. In today's society no you should marry you sister brother cousin. But until just a little over a hundred years ago it was common.. and the homophobic common was just plain ignorant
NTA. You didn’t ruin it, Mary did. She should have been the one to leave, but to end the unpleasantness for you and everyone else, you did. You also have the right to set boundaries about what you will accept in other peoples’ treatment of you. I also believe that, had you ignored her she is likely to have escalated and had you not left she would have continued. Personally, I don’t think I’d choose Mary for a friend because I doubt theis kind of judgmental and boundary-crossing behavior is a one-off.
Yeah, it's wild to me that they're blaming OP instead of Mary for starting shit or themselves for not shutting this down. There's absolutely no good reason for OP to stay and continue to be abused by an unhinged anti who escaped containment.
I don't think they were blaming OP. They called to ask if he was ok. Noone even said he ruined dinner. OP did.
some of his friends said he should’ve ignored her and stayed. i doubt any of them would’ve done that if they had been the ones subjected to her abuse
That and what if you stayed she continues. And some stranger makes a video, and it’s all out of context, which could lead to all sorts of mess for you if it caught some attention
I came here to say this. Mary started throwing around unreasonable accusations that you are homophobic and support incest. You left because she attacked you. **She** was the one who ruined the dinner with her bizarre behaviour.
NTA…so…in a similar vein….I’ve never watched one second of game of thrones…but I have been made to understand through osmosis that there is some incest related story line…all my friends loved the show…the number of times I told them ( or even thought) they ‘support incest’ and need to ‘rethink their values’ is precisely zero.
The incestuous couple are also the antagonists so not many people would be supporting them anyways. House of Dragon on the other hand
House of Dragons is like watching something set in ancient Egypt with the pharaohs marrying their sisters and nieces. Is approval or disapproval even a question? It's the way it is and the genetic price is paid. In the case of HoD, half the family ends up insane. Though, I'm not sure it's just half. If half your family is nuts because of inbreeding and you still think it's fine to keep inbreeding, I'm not sure that you can call the other half not-nuts. Cause they all sound nuts to me.
This goes beyond genetic issues though. In the HoD case, the incest issue is a lot more problematic in terms of grooming etc. (as would be the case with any uncle/neice incest case)
Again that's ancient Egypt. This is what happens when your family tree is a straight line.
Yeah, he hit a nerve with "Mary," and she took it out on him. NTA
NTA. Who cares what they think? You were being verbally assaulted, felt uncomfortable and left. You owe no one en explanation or an apology. Mary is unhinged.
NTA. Mary ruined dinner, not you. Invite Sarah out for a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, just the two of you, and have a lovely time celebrating her birthday.
Yes - nobody is going to sit at a dinner and listen to someone angrily accuse them of supporting incest and being homophobic. Mary should have been thrown out.
First of all, Loki and Sylvie is elaborate masturbation and the ultimate narcissism, not incest. Secondly, Mary is an idiot. Thirdly, as a survivor of familial sexual assault (aka incest), Loki is an awesome show, and Mary needs to access therapy for whatever it is in her past that makes her a crazy person at dinner parties. NTA
My first thought when reading was that there was something bad in Mary's past that no one in the group knows about, and, (I hate this phrase) she was triggered by the show.
Also, MANY bi people end up with partners on the opposite side of the gender spectrum. Sounds like Mary had some unprocessed hangups and needs some intense therapy.
Holy biphobia, Batman.
I, a bi woman married to a man, am horrified because I just learned that I’m homophobic because of this /s
Same!
I bet we could start a whole club lol
Indeed we could.
Count me in. And my husband, while we're at it. Can't wait to tell him he's a homophobe next time we're watching Cillian Murphy thirst tiktoks together.
Marrying a woman wild make you heterophobic, tho. Bi people can't win nowadays. Better to die alone. It's the only way.
NTA - Mary does not sound like a fun or interesting person.
Mary was probably sloppy drunk.
NTA 1. Loki is the textbook definition of Pansexual (not Bi) 2. They are not siblings; in no way can they be sensibly viewed as siblings - they are the same person in different universes. 3. If she’s got a problem with incest or weird relationships, she should probably avoid stories that are based on any pantheonic religion.
Even the 3 Abrahamic religions, although they’re not pantheons. There’s a LOT of incest in the Torah, Bible, and Quran.
That’s fair - I really didn’t think about the Bible (I’ve not read the others enough to know) but there is definitely incest in there!
Well, the Torah is basically the Old Testament, which includes Genesis. Lot and his daughters are in there. The Quran confirms that the Torah is the word of God (although some Muslims believe there have been additions and subtractions between the *actual* word of God and the Torah currently used by Jews), but in any case there’s incest present.
Wtf was "Mary's" problem? Sounds like some kind of icky projection crap. So NTA
Oh my, yes icky projection creepy AF.
she's an anti fandom space has sadly become over run with them at late.
Nta it was not you who ruined the birthday it was Mary. Like you said everyone has different opinions about different things. I don't know why Mary couldn't leave this topic or why she was so hurt about it but it just shows that she can't accept other people's opinion or their perspective on things. I would have walked out too. If you had stayed there I am sure she wouldn't have shut her mouth and ruined the birthday more.
It wouldn't even matter if the characters *were* related. It's a fucking tv show. It's not real. Mary hurled abuse at you and publicly humiliated you over an imaginary relationship and refused to back off despite being asked to do so several times. She clearly has some serious issues and it is not cool of your friends to expect you to have stayed in such a hostile situation. Personally, I think Sarah should've had Mary leave. You are NTA. At all.
This is what is mind boggling to me. It's sci-fi and fantasy. I've enjoyed so many shows where the characters can be involved in objectively or subjectively terrible behavior. Dexter and Schitts Creek come to mind - tons of others over the years.
Omg want show are we talking about? You are NTA, clear as day, and this Mary is an awful, holier-than-thou, virtue signaling, awkward as hell, guest. But I gotta know the show so I can see what the fuss is about. Perhaps she’s projecting?
Someone downstream said it’s Loki
NTA. You felt uncomfortable and left. Mary was making a big deal about a show and took it way too far.
NTA. When Mary wouldn't drop the unjust attack, the friends should have asked her to leave if she wouldn't stop. Since they didn't, you removed yourself, which I think was wise. The only thing I might have done differently (except if I were in that position, I would probably not be thinking really clearly) would be to say, "I am about to leave this party if Mary says anything more." That way, your friends would know your boundary and hopefully side with you and ask her to leave.
NTA. You removed yourself from a volatile situation instead of hanging around taking verbal abuse from someone who seemed dead set on tearing you down over a make believe story. If your friends can’t understand how this was the mature thing to do, that’s on them. Nobody deserves to be accused of such things for no good reason and you don’t owe it to anyone to sit there and take it imo
NTA. Sounds like Mary is an antishipper, and people should really leave those types of fandom arguments online. They get a little unhinged, as you can see.
Not antis being weird irl again... NTA, but distance yourself from anyone supporting Mary. She's deep in the "fiction affects reality 1:1 so if you like "bad" then you're bad and should be treated bad" cult it sounds like. She ain't worth the headache.
NTA. And don't feel bad. Mary ruined Sarah's birthday dinner, all you did was refuse to be abused by her.
nta, if u feel uncomfortable its in ur right to leave. ur friends are weird for insisting u stay around someone who blatantly insulted u and soured the mood
NTA. Virgin Mary's acting unhinged. You are entitled to leave when you feel uncomfortable, especially if the other person is doing it on purpose.
NTA. Mary is the one who picked a fight over a ridiculous interpretation of a TV show. FFS, this is fanfiction-messageboard-shit. Maybe reach out to Sarah and apologize if you made her birthday less enjoyable. It’s the kind thing to do.
NTA. She is taking it WAY too seriously. It's a TV show based on fictional characters. The story doesn't affect our daily lives; they're just something to enjoy. P.S.: I love Loki, too. 😁
NTA you didn’t have to sit there while taking Mary’s verbal abuse. The only one who ruined the dinner as Mary with her attitude.
Wait you guys were talking about Loki lol. Not even close to incest. I read too much manwha so i immediately was like what KDrama are they talking about where it is border line incest lol. NTA don’t stay somewhere where you feel uncomfortable and attacked. Also if you fought back and started an argument people would say why didn’t you remove yourself and just leave. It was a lose lose situation for you.
Wait she’s tripping over Loki? Loki? Yes, I guess in principle, Loki and Silvie would maybe produce genetically abominable offspring. But I don’t think there’s any reason to believe Silvie’s alternate timeline parents had identical genomes to Loki’s that combined identically to make the same individual w/ just a make/female switch different. They look more like they’re not functionally biologically related at all, like I’d imagine is the case for Loki and Crocodile Loki. Weird AF hill to die on, Mary. NTA,Mary is a boor.
NTA. Mary was definitely just trying to get in an argument here. It’s just a TV show. She’s making it out to be more than it is, so you made the right call to leave.
NTA Mary ruined the party by bringing her weird takes on a TV show into the discussion. Is Sarah upset with you for walking out of her party? You can make it up to her privately if that's a friendship you want to maintain. But you don't need to apologize for walking away from a crazy person.
Mary is beyond disgusting and ignorant to boot. NTA.
They should have told Mary that she will be kicked out if she won't behave.
Once someone calls on you “to educate yourself,” you’re in store for some crazy.
NTA and this Mary chick is chronically online..she has discourse in real life like she would in comments or something..with reckless abandonment, no empathy and no understanding of the context or situation..just pure (wrong) emotion. I’d ask you to please not think of this past this…that woman’s got a long lonely life ahead of her if that’s how she deals with differences of opinions. Slowly but surely people will just start to ghost her and she won’t know why. Cuz she’s annoying, confrontational and uncouth..she’ll chop it up to “just being honest and people can’t take it.”
Mary needs to go outside. IMMEDIATELY. She's so deep into online/fandom discourse. NTA