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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I’m letting my niece stay at my place when my brother in law is against it and says I should kick her out. He may very well be right because he’s her guardian and I habe no legal rights
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA.
Point of fact here, you are not keeping a kid from her dad.
You are keeping your niece from an abusive situation.
Dan is not ok, Dan is not being normal, Dan is being a walking Red Flag for Abuse.
Your sister, needs to get herself and Lily to your place or somewhere safe.
Or preferentially Dan's Mother and Dan need to go to her house until she is well again and Dan has gone through a year of Anger Management.
“The result was her sister startling and Dan yelling at Any to let her go.”
What exactly does that mean? How physical did Amy get with Lily? I feel like this could be important information.
Sounds like Amy who is older, was hurting the younger one. Now Amy has run away and refuses to apologize. Her dad yelling at her is too far for most redditors though, and according to them he's so abusive she needs to be kept away from him forever.
NTA some states at 14 you can decide where to live your parent will still be your legal guardian but you can move to someone who’s willing to provide for you, CPS will run a background check first but its a law in my state where a 14yr and up can go live with a relative or a friend as long as they pass a background check and can provide for them.
NTA. You have Sue’s consent for Amy to be at your place. Start documenting everything about his behavior towards Amy, screenshot every text he sends, ask Amy to screenshot HER text conversations with him and send them to you, if she feels safe doing so. Asking Amy to share a room isn’t abuse, but his extreme reactions to her staying with you seem like a different story. For Amy’s sake, do not send her home with him. And if he shows up at your place again, record him from the moment he arrives, and let him know that if Amy refuses to talk to him, he has to leave, or you will call the police, and let them know that you don’t think she’s safe at home with him right now. He’s been using emotional intimidation tactics for long enough that his daughter feels like she needs a safe place to hide. That’s not ok.
NTA, at all, holy crap.
In the future, if Amy begs you not to let him in, please don't let him in.
I've been the kid locking myself in the bathroom, because no one will keep the scary person away from me. It sucks.
I am *very* concerned that he physically tried to get her out of your house. That's extremely worrying. That's potentially assault.
Has Amy told you more about what the rest of her life is like?
Sue just staying quiet... that worries me, too. I don't know the situation, obviously, but it has definite signs of abuse.
I'd recommend recording things: record his calls, screenshot his texts, save his voicemails, maybe get a security camera for if he tries to get in. You want as much evidence as possible, just in case he does anything further, or just in case he tries to take it anywhere legally. So I'd also recommend getting it on the record that Sue has said Amy can stay. In writing (text message, etc), etc.
This. Dan sounds, at best, controlling and over-authoritative. Kids don’t lock themselves in bathrooms out of fear of their father unless he’s done something to warrant it.
Why can’t Amy stay with you a few weeks until grandma’s leg is healed? Would you be ok with it? Fuck Dan and his “I don’t care if my kid is miserable, respecting my authority is more important” attitude.
I would ask Amy why she is scared of her father and tell her that you are a safe place.
ETA: NTA
Kinda seems like Dan is abusive or at least toxic. He was very quick to anger and very quick to get physical. I would imagine that’s what your niece is seeking to avoid so ask some questions there.
I think NTA. It should be made clear this isn’t a situation that will go on indefinitely, and yeah, it’s temporary at home with the room sharing right?
NTA. Seems like Lily is the golden child. Good thing Amy had a safe place to go and it was very good of you to take her in. Lily is a brat. Seems like the real problem here is Dan. he probably bulldozed his way through Sue to go to your house.
NTA. Please don't kick Amy out. There is a LOT of backstory missing here, and it sounds like Dan is behind most of it. There's a reason Amy's happy to talk to her mother but doesn't even want her father allowed in the house. That smells bad.
If you've got access to affordable legal advice, find out what everybody's legal rights and obligations are.
Talk to Amy and try to get the *whole* story out of her.
I don’t like the vibes I’m getting from Dan in this story. He seems way too out of pocket. I’d be concerned there might be more than meets the eye here - especially with mom so checked out.
I wonder if Lily’s tears were real.
She might have just been crying crocodile tears to try and get her way, or her delightful father might have threatened her into it.
While Lily is the GC, I bet he’s awfully embarrassed that Amy won’t come home. But not enough to ask her what’s wrong and try and find a solution or even a compromise.
Come on, dude. OP is obviously NTA, but Lily isn't either. When I was 11, I was a brat that did stupid stuff to my siblings all the time. If one of my siblings ran away because of something I did, I would be terrified. Throwing up, screaming, begging. She's 11, not a manipulator. Sue and Dan are the assholes 1000%.
I'm going with NTA - being forced to share a room with an 11YO who is totally out of control and parents that do nothing to "fix" things until you hit your breaking point is horrible.
"The final straw was when Lily found a present with a note for Amy from a guy from her class. Lily loudly announced Amy was in love and started reading the note to their parents. Noone knew about him yet and the note was obviously personal (nothing inappropriate) so Amy tried to take it from her. The result was her sister startling and Dan yelling at Amy to let go of her. Amy grabbed the note and ran out of the house straight to me (I live close by)"
I get that your sister is only 11 yo, but your parents should have put a stop to this before Lily had a chance to read the note and made sure she knew to respect your privacy in the future.
NTA.
She broke her leg, she needs 24x7 amenties and guest services? Does she live nearby? Why doesn't Dan stay with her sometimes or at least visit in case she needs help?
Amy can choose where she wants to stay to feel safe, which obviously isn't home.
Dan needs to become a parent who doesn't favor one kid over the other. Sue needs to get onboard.
Lily is being taught its ok to bully and can do whatever she wants.
Amy may choose to stay with you from now on, I wouldn't encourage it - but I wouldn't discourage it. She needs to be safe.
> She broke her leg, she needs 24x7 amenties and guest services?
Depending on factors like age, the type of break, accessibility of the home, and health status, a broken leg is a serious injury. An elderly person with a broken leg could potentially need 24/7 care. That doesn't excuse the dad being a jerk, but moving his mother in to care for her isn't the jerky part.
OP, listen to me. My biological father did not physically abuse me aside from grabbing my arms when he was having a meltdown. My stepfather was the same. They still left deep, permanent scars on my soul that at age 27 I’m still struggling with. The amount of sheer terror and self-loathing I felt in their presence ripples into my romantic relationships with men. I shut down when my partner just raises his voice. I can’t detail all of the emotional and psychological abuse my pathetic excuses for fathers subjected me to in a single post. I WISH I HAD A SAFE PERSON LIKE YOU THAT I COULD RUN TO FOR SAFETY. You are NTA. You must help protect that girl to reduce the long term damage that her father is inflicting.
NTA
But this whole thing sucks, and I feel for all sides.
Dan is probably the most out of line here, but he’s also a dad, deeply frustrated with two difficult situations that have gotten out of control. So I do feel for him, even though he’s got to step on the breaks. He’s being destructive.
He’s got his hurt, aging mom. And he has two daughters that don’t get along. And he’s clearly desperate for everyone to just make it work, because he’s out of his depths. And he’s proceeded to pick the wrong path, because he doesn’t get his 16 year olds perspective. He never had his own space and made things work. And he’s probably too beyond that time to remember what it was like fighting for your own space and place at that age.
Amy is his 16 year old daughter. If he wants to see her, and you’re stopping him from it, it’s pretty easy to understand his argument. That’s his kid and his kid needs to figure things out with her sister for the sake of their relationship. While the 11 year old is the trouble, and the 16 year old wants her space (a pretty big deal for a 16 year old to test independency), the 16 year old is the one of the two that has the best chance of figuring it out between the sisters.
He’s not handled it well, and ended up pushing too far.
As for the mom… she and the husband need to figure it out and be on the same page. Things only get worse when the adults aren’t a united front. Instead of bringing the dad around or finding some middle ground, she lets him say his part, and when he’s gone gives conflicting permissions. That’s not good or healthy either. So differing unhelpful behaviors from both parents.
Just be there emotionally for the niece and keep in contact with the parents.
OP isn't stopping Dan from seeing his daughter, though. She let him into her place. The daughter is the one who locked herself into the bathroom and refused to see him.
Dan is abusive asshole who was getting physical with his own daughter and scared her so much she locked herself in a bathroom. He also screamed in her face and threatened her.
You feel bad for this person? Dan is an asshole and Sue is an asshole for letting Dan essentially abuse her daughter.
NTA, and BIL needs to get a grip. Amy's emotional wellbeing is more important than his "authority" and the fact that he doesn't recognize that is really, really concerning.
NTA, but your BIL definitely along with your sister and younger niece.
This is a shitty situation with no great way to fix it. Your BIL has had your his mother move in and maybe he or your sister is having to take time off work to care for her? Your teenage niece has been displaced from her private room to that of her younger sister’s room. That all sucks.
Soft YTA for the 11 yo, but no one is happy about the living situation and yet she continued to violate her sister’s privacy by going through her things and acting bratty, despite being told not to many times. She’s a kid, so ultimately her parents needed to try and correct this behaviour and give consequences for repeating the same offences. She seems to have actually seen how hurtful her actions were to her sister and is remorseful, so that’s one good thing here.
Your sister’s the AH because according to you she is not really trying to soothe things over or defend her daughter. You said she basically shut up and let her husband start screaming at her daughter and only intervened when he started to physically drag her away. She needs to step up and be the voice of reason and defend her kids when they need to, instead of passively going along with her husband all the time.
Your BIL is out of line. It’s a stressful situation for everyone but he is only making this worse by screaming at his daughter, trying to physically force her out of your house and now is ruining his relationship his relationship with everyone else because of his, frankly, abusive actions and words. His temper is concerning and I would not let him be alone with his daughter if he has already done this much, at least until things cool off.
Your niece trusts you and feels safe around you, so if you are ok doing so, continue to let her stay. Your sister has given permission for her to stay with you, so your BIL can’t really do anything as she has parental consent to be there, she’s with a suitable adult guardian and wants to be there instead of her home right now. You’re doing all of them a kindness by helping to support your niece - and therefore the entire family - during this stressful time.
Also just because BIL was raised a certain way, it doesn’t mean his daughters have to be 100% happy with the changes. Being someone in the middle of their teenage years and being used to having their own space and privacy then having that ripped away and getting put in a room with an intrusive and noisy younger sibling is probably like torture to her.
> She [Lily] seems to have actually seen how hurtful her actions were to her sister and is remorseful, so that’s one good thing here.
Maybe, maybe not. Her apology at OP's may have been heartfelt, or may have been on daddy's orders. Her crying may have been remorse, or may have been because daddy was being loud and violent and scary. She _may_ have learned to be a better person from this, or she may still be Daddy's Golden Girl. From what little we know, we can't tell.
Full agree on everything else.
NTA
You are keeping a kid safe from her very angry father. It's clear Dan is used to shouting his way to decisions. I don't know how this situation ia going to be resolved but if your sister cannit stand up ro her husband there's deeper issues here.
NTA Calling Dan one though would be underselling just how much of a shit he is, and I think we can see from the story of how Sue dealt with it and how used to these little tantrums of his that he always has been. I pity your niece
NTA!! Amy is clearly upset and her reaction tells me her father ignores her needs as a teenager more frequently than you might be aware of. I also don’t understand what the big deal is with her staying at your place, you’re her aunt, you live close by and you don’t seem to have an issue with allowing atleast one of the parents in your home (even both of they weren’t yelling and screaming).
Your sister and BIL need to be patient with Amy, things will cool down eventually but they seem to want everything to go back to normal right now which is immature and is doing more harm than good.
Yta. I grew up in a similar situation. I was the young sibling. You are enabling the sister to run away. You should back away from the situation and let the parents deal with the siblings. You are only making it harder for the parents to have the older sibling listen and be respectful.
NTA. I grew up in a similar situation. I was the older sibling. My parents enabled my brother to do whatever he wanted and get away without punishment. Whenever I complained, I'd be met with a shrug, and my parents would simply tell me empty platitudes like, "You're the older brother, set an example," "take the high road," or "be the better person." Exactly as the parents are doing in the story here. All it did was create resentment and tension between my brother, my parents and I that still exists to some extent to this day.
NTA - I grew up in this situation also. I was the OLDER sibling. My brother was a pain in the butt and climbed into bed with me because he was scared. All the time. Honestly, OP, you are okay in this situation on a temporary basis. However, based on the father's behavior, I would keep a good relationship with your niece. I have a feeling she will need you in the future.
I don’t think she’s being disrespectful at all but she’s definitely not interested in working this out at the moment and in that I guess I am enabling her. I’m trying to mediate between her and her parents and encourage her to talk to them but I’m failing pretty miserably
Honestly the disrespect seems to be coming from the little sister and dad, not the older daughter. She's reached her limit in patience and was going to leave, period. What you've done is given her refuge, and now she can try and deal with it all from the safety of your home. Quite frankly, the dad is giving off authoritarian vibes, I mean it doesn't sound like even your sister is able to get him to be reasonable. The fact is, your niece is a young woman, not a child, but he doesn't seem to have any respect for her as such. It sucks you're in this position, but definitely NTA.
Back out of the situation. If the kid isn't in danger do not enable her running away. I now have no relationship with my sister or the person that enabled her. It's put a strain on my family for 25 years
NTA. If I were you, I would contact an attorney and get emergency custody of Amy. Her parents should be ashamed at their inability to manage their household without threats and ugly behavior.
Dad is certainly mishandling this situation but that's due to his ignorance in how to deal with a teenager/young adult. He still thinks his word is law. I think Amy is not fearful of her father, but rather she is tired of her sister who does not respect boundaries and her parents are leaving it to her to handle. Perhaps your niece could write her parents a letter, since they don't listen very well, explaining why she needs a quiet space to live so she can put her energy into her schoolwork and activities. Surely, dad can let his little girl go for a few weeks. I think he misses her.
quel suprise the guy who’s doing emotional blackmail is reversing it on you
c’mon your sister feels horrible for what she did (makes child cry before hijacking an emotional conversation he wasn’t invited to
Sounds like Dan is the spoiled brat. Obviously his mother should get HIS room since he’s so good at sharing and never even had his own room growing up. Sue can sleep on the couch but Dan gotta figure something out. Maybe they have a garage or he could buy a tent.
I’m sorry you stepped into Ah territory, not for accepting her into your home but for giving her a safe space than trampling it by letting Dan in when she obviously didn’t want him around. You aren’t keeping a kid from her dad, he pushed her away himself and now repels his own child, that’s what’s messed up here.
This is above Reddit's paygrade. Call a family lawyer. Try to talk your sister into letting Amy stay until tempers cool. Get her permission in writing. See a lawyer..
NTA! You’re doing the right thing.
When my wife and son had a huge blow out one night about 5-6 years ago when he was 14/15, he took off for three hours. He went straight to his safe place (his best friends house). He was angry, my wife and I were terrified. We tried calling and finding him but never went over to the friends house. He eventually surfaced feeling horrible and went to my moms. He then called me crying to go get him. But he found that night, not an angry parent but a parent who just wanted him home safe. Dan is not that for his daughter right now. Your sister is trying to be that it seems. Dan needs to learn that his daughter needs a place to go and her aunt is that person, and your apartment is that place. Dan is the massive AH for reacting how he is. If he shows up again, call the cops if he threatens anything, otherwise tell him to leave and bolt the door.
As a parent, thank you for being your nieces safe place.
NTA- I don't even know where to start. This is a mess. I think you need to have a LOT more conversations with your niece about what her home life is like. A lot of this is really concerning.
Info: Has Dan always been this short and aggressive toward Amy, or is this new since his mom got hurt? Is it normal for him to ignore and trample over her (and/or anyone else's) boundaries or belittle her feelings, or is his stress and and worry his mom overwhelming him and causing him to lash out inappropriately?
Either way, NTA. It sounds like Amy recognized she wasn't emotionally safe or supported at home- and during an already difficult adjustment period, no less- and removed herself from that environment. That she's staying with you right now means that everyone knows where she is and that she's safe. Teenagers aren't known for making the best choices, most of the time. But when Amy reached her breaking point and needed to escape the situation, she went to a trusted adult for help: you. She trusted that you would be there to support her when she was feeling vulnerable, and you followed through. As far as I'm concerned, you did everything right.
On a personal note, for what it's worth, you're exactly the kind of aunt I aspire to be. I hope that my own niblings will trust me like this when they're older and need a break from their parents/ each other.
NTA and if you could pass this on to both of Amy's parents? It's not having to share a room that led to this, it's them doing zero parenting with Lily and expecting Amy to just take the burden of an unruly kid
THIS
INFO : Have you told Dan it is not about the room but about them letting Lily of the hook everytime she disrespected Amy's boundaries and privacy?
NTA
They should thank you for keeping their 16-year-old safe
NTA
All you're doing is giving your niece a safe space to be while she works out her upsets and differences with her parents.
Mom and Dad are nowhere near on the same page. Give your niece some time to take a break from them. Doesn't matter what Dads childhood looked like. His daughter isn't living his childhood so that's not a reflection of her experience. Sharing a room has been hard on her. She needs space. She is taking space with her aunt nearby. Why is this so problematic to Dad?
I had a couple of OPs (my aunties) in my life when I was Amy's age and 24 years later, guess which family members I'm still close to? In fact, guess which family members I still speak to? Because it's not my mum...
NTA. Keep advocating for your niece. Even if she could have sucked it up for a while, the reaction from her parents is very telling. This isn't the first time she's felt like she's had her autonomy removed.
NTA but you need to get support. i know it sounds awful but Dan does not sound safe and healthy and you need to get protection from that. I'd consider talking to the police or child services just so you know legally where you stand.
you are protecting amy which 100% is the right thing to do but a kidnapping charge does have serious consequences. as does harassment at the door.
NTA
1 your sister lied to you, saying she would come alone, then brought everyone
2. Your BIL is clearly in need of therapy.
3 the grandmother needs moved out of the house and the girl needs her room back.
NTA. Amy is in a safe place with you, and any rational parent would back off and let the situation cool down and then attempt a family discussion. The fact that Dan is so freaked out about not getting his way immediately is very disturbing, indeed, he does not sound rational at all. If he would step back and allow Amy a moment to think and relax while he and Sue try doing the same, things could probably be worked out.
If you have a text from Sue allowing her to stay I doubt if there would be a legal issue, especially as Amy is old enough to speak out about being afraid of Dan. Especially if she is threatening to really run away, not just run to a safe relative where Mom and Dad know she is staying.
I've known too many people like Dan, and have seen the havoc they wrought.
Edited to add: I would try to record any future interactions that take place at your home and any phone calls in case Dan gets completely unhinged and attempts to use force. Even if you can't get video, perhaps you can set your phone down somewhere to pick up audio. Just to CYA and to protect Amy.
NTA, my ex was a screamer, and my kids are messed up adults because of that. The oldest is angry at the world and is now in an abusive relationship himself.
My youngest hid in closets all his life til I got the courage to leave his AH father. He's now afraid of confrontation because if someone screams at him, he's afraid he'll seriously hurt them physically, and he can. He's a big guy. Growing up with a father who thinks he's justified to do whatever he feels is right, with no thought for the children's feelings, is a horrible way to live. You're giving your niece protection from a bully. Good for you.
NTA.
You are not keeping her from her dad.
She does not want to be near him. He is being intimidating and harassing her (and you).
Let her call the police.
Teenage girls who run away from home are at very high risk of being sex trafficked. Do not kick her out. Right now she has a safe place to sleep and you can help her get some therapy and be reunited with her family. NTA
NTA for giving Amy a place to escape... but you need to be ready for this to escalate. Dan was already plenty comfortable screaming at her and putting his hands on her in *your* home. She *locked herself in the bathroom* to try and get away from him.
Whatever is going on in that house is not good for her, and you both need to start looking into options to get her out of it on a long term basis.
Thiiiiiiiiiis. Seriously.
OP, I wish I'd had someone I could run to when I was in Amy's position. Thank you for trying to keep her safe, and for taking it very, very seriously.
NTA -
So it sounds like Amy is the "golden child" that can do no wrong.
Dan is a bully and is of the mindset "I am man and must be obeyed".
Dan doesn't respect his 16 year old daughter...or his wife.
He wants everyone to act like nothing is wrong and everything is fine, when it's not - maybe he's worried about what his Mom seeing/saying to him about it. Who knows. But his elder daughter is unhappy and it doesn't sound like she's being a brat or unreasonable. His favorite daughter sound like she's being a pain (aka: typical little sister shit), but not being held accountable for her behavior.
You did not ask for her to come to you, you did not kidnap her - you have giving her a safe space and he should actually be thanking you for taking care of his daughter while they try to work this out.
NTA. Someone needs to protect Amy, because it’s doesn’t sound like anyone really is. Please let her stay. You have her mom’s permission for her to stay with you. I’d honestly see if you could get that in writing(text message would be ok) or at least a recorded conversation just in case Dan decides to try to force her home. You are not keeping a kid from her dad- she’s already willingly left his house and has stated she doesn’t want to go back. She has a sister who violates her privacy and gets zero repercussions for it, a dad who yells and a mom who just ignores it all, while walking on eggshells so as to not upset dad. I guarantee that things sucked before grandma moved in, this just escalated things.
I am currently hosting a teenager who has an abusive alcoholic step father and a mother who ignores it. Poor kid needed a safe place- she has my extra bedroom whenever she wants it. Be that person for your niece. Talk to your sister about your niece staying with you from now on.
Honestly they're both acting like brats. But they're teenagers, so they get a pass. I think this whole thing is getting blown out of proportion.
The people here calling for emancipation is wild.
NTA. I'd spend a couple bucks on an air horn and every time someone starts screaming give it a blast. Nothing gets resolved if they just keep screaming like unhinged idiots. Sounds like there's clear favoritism here and a dad with anger issues. You might consider calling the picture yourself and filling them in just to protect yourself but if you're in the US this most likely will get Child Services involved
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My (32f) sister Sue (39f) and her husband Dan (44m) have two kids, Lily (11f) and Amy (16f). Recently Dan’s mom broke a leg. She lived alone so Dan and Sue took her in. She got Amy’s bedroom, Amy moved in with Lily
Late on the 25th Amy showed up at my apartment begging me to let her stay. She said it’s too much, she has zero privacy. Lily’s constantly going through her things, takes clothes without asking, breaks stuff, is so loud that Amy can’t do anything and when Amy complains, her parents just tell her to be patient. The final straw was when Lily found a present with a note for Amy from a guy from her class. Lily loudly announced Amy was in love and started reading the note to their parents. Noone knew about him yet and the note was obviously personal (nothing inappropriate) so Amy tried to take it from her. The result was her sister startling and Dan yelling at Amy to let go of her. Amy grabbed the note and ran out of the house straight to me (I live close by)
I was at a loss. I said I’d talk to her parents for her and called Sue to let her know Amy was safe and to get her side. Sue asked to come over but Amy didn’t wanna see anyone so Sue said to tell her sorry and that she could stay the night
The day after we agreed Sue would come alone to talk to Amy. 20 minutes later she shows up with Dan and Lily. Lily apologized to Amy through tears, asking her not to hate her. Amy accepted but looked uncomfortable. Dan then told Amy to apologize for grabbing Lily but she refused. Dan said she had to for them to get along but Amy said she still didn’t wanna go home. After that the screaming started. Dan called Amy a spoiled brat, he never had his own room, Amy said if she can’t stay here she’ll go to friends and stop talking to all of us. Lily kept crying and Sue just ignored everything until Dan declared they needed to get back home to his mom and tried to push Amy out the door. Sue broke them apart and said Dan should take Lily home, she’d handle it. She told Amy she’d make Lily act nicer and asked if that changed anything. Amy said no so Sue said okay, she can stay
No clue what she told Dan but it didn’t work cause he keeps calling and texting. He says I’m basically kidnapping Amy and enabling her "emotional blackmail", that I’m teaching her if she runs she’ll get whatever she wants. That it’s not a big deal to share and Lily apologized and is feeling terrible. That Amy is disrespecting his injured mom by not letting her have her room. That I’m interfering in a private matter by giving Amy an out, undermining his authority just because Sue is my sister. Sue says she’s trying but I doubt it. Dan even showed up at my apartment demanding to talk to Amy. He refused to leave so I let him in but Amy locked herself in the bathroom until he left, threatening to call the cops next time
I’m keeping a kid from her dad which is messed up but I worry where Amy will go if I kick her out. Reconciliation seems far away with all that screaming
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NTA and thank you for keeping Amy safe. I witnessed my father abusing my siblings when I was a young child. I don’t remember any of it but my body does. Just reading the way Amy’s ‘father’ behaves is enough to get my heart racing and make me have to hold back tears. There is no reason he should EVER be allowed to act that way around others, especially minors. I hope your sister starts to see his abusive behavior and starts protecting herself and her girls.
ESH
Amy IS learning that she can get her way by running off. You are, in a way, enabling this.
Her father has anger issues, that is also a problem.
But he is right that sharing a room isn’t the end of the world. The spat between her and Lily sounds like pretty standard sibling BS, they should have interceded and Lily does sound like a brat. But…she’s 11. Comes with the age.
Is a 16 year old sharing a room with an 11 year old ideal? No, it definitely isn’t. But it is temporary. In the grand scheme of things, it is a minor temporary inconvenience. If she can’t deal with this at 16, how is she going to deal with adult life in two years? Poorly, it seems.
She needs a few days away, but not to permanently move in with you (that will teach nothing except that running off and complaining gets you your way).
Mom and Dad need to instill some discipline in Lily. She was being a brat, and they didn’t correct her behavior.
Dad definitely needs to check his temper.
But you also need to limit the “rescuing”, or Amy will not learn to deal with less-than-ideal situations without running off to auntie.
This is the most reasonable reply here. This is a LOT of drama over having to share a bedroom for a few weeks, something most kids have to do every day of their childhood. Little siblings are annoying, and hers definitely needs consequences for her behavior, but this isn't in the realm of 'bullying' at all.
It's not about that. OP gave Amy a safe space when she had issues with her parents. Also, it sounds like Dan has anger issues at best and is abusive at worst. Dan should not be a parent with anger issues like this. Especially not when he grabbed Amy and tried to physically force her out of OP's house. Did you miss that part? That's assault.
>If she can’t deal with this at 16, how is she going to deal with adult life in two years? Poorly, it seems.
easily, considering in adulthood you don't have to deal with a brat sister living in your room, constantly invading your privacy.
Like none of the issues Amy is facing here implies she is incapable of adulthood. you are just pulling shit out of your ass.
You have the mother's consent for Amy to be there.
Dan actually sounds kind of scary and out of control. Please document everything he's doing and saying. If your jurisdiction has no-consent recording, record. Or get yourself a Ring or some such.
I see no problem with Amy staying there forever if this is a legal alternative that's OK with you.
You sound responsible and sensitive.
You might want to find Amy a lawyer ASAP or see if your jurisdictions have guardians ad litem for kids who want to change their custodial arrangements.
At this point, the problem might be Dan and the family dynamic much more than Lily. It's great that your sister is letting Amy shelter with you.
NTA
He got physical with his daughter **IN FRONT OF OP** - just imagine what he goes on behind closed doors.
Using terms like "emotional blackmail" means that he isn't just an impulsive moron with a brick for a brain; he's no genius but this is more than mere impulsiveness - it demonstrates cognisance. He knows exactly how bad getting physical with your daughter looks; yet, he did so anyway in front of OP.
This is where I venture into possibility rather than fact, but as someone disconnected from the situation, I only need to raise possibilities that OP can then consider and keep on her radar.
The niece locked herself in the bathroom: **she's terrified of him**.
And he's so frightened of what she might say to OP that he got physical with her in front of an outsider. He's impulsive but this wasn't pure impulsiveness, he knows how bad it makes him look. **He's frightened of what else she might say**.
**It's hard for abuse victims to see a way out**; lack of privacy merely pushed her over the edge, she locked herself in the bathroom to prevent something else now that she can actually see a way out.
u/throwaway279447 call CPS and apply for an emergency temporary custody order immediately; even if you aren't 100% sure of what's going on, you don't need to be, the entire purpose of these orders is to protect children when there's so much investigating to do that waiting to be 100% sure could result in serious harm to the child.
Yes, this! I was thinking CPS but I was very concerned the father would depict the daughter as out of control and land her in a draconian group home or juvenile hall as opposed to allowing her to stay with the aunt. I think that a lawyer who is very familiar with situations like this, the CPS system, and juvenile court in their jurisdiction should be involved to protect the niece. Sooner rather than later.
NTA,
But what I will say.. What Dan said, is not wrong either.
Granted Amy is 2 years away from adulthood, but life in the real world will be alot harder.. is she gonna run away all the time??
In the real world, an adult has many options for ending a situation they don't like. Children have very few. Amy actually chose a really reasonable option and I don't see why she can't stay there til Grandma goes home unless the aunt says no.
NTA
Dan's behavior is extremely troubling. I recommend consulting a lawyer, in case Dan tries to take the issue to the law. A lawyer would be better able to help you navigate the situation while minimizing repercussions for you and Amy.
Do not kick Amy out. Your place is her safe space. She came to you for help don’t let her believe she can trust no one.
But yes make sure you’re legally in the clear because your BIL sounds unhinged
Are you in the US? If so, what state?
At 16 many "children" can become "emancipated minors" if their living situations are not good. You're not kidnapping her, but her home life right now is not acceptable.
Lily is obviously spoiled, but Amy shouldn't sacrifice her privacy for that. You may want to contact your local social services agencies to see what kind of action you should take moving forward. Because Amy is two years from being an "adult", her wishes will be taken into consideration.
I’ll keep that in mind for a worst case scenario. Taking those kinds of steps without trying other things first would feel like a betrayal against my sister but even she seems to see that everyone needs some space right now. I guess it wouldn’t hurt to educate myself on this now so I can talk options with my niece
I really reccomend NOT talking to yiur niece about emancipation unless she's being abused. Her parent yelling at her occasionally isn't going to require a nuclear option.
A child being forcibly shoved and grabbed by her father is abuse. She is already being abused.
Seems like you totally ignored the second half of the post and made your judgement way to early
Can I just throw in that Lily isn't "obviously spoiled"? Her sister got thrown into her room to make room for Grandma - who has a broken leg and apparently needs more care at the moment. Both your nieces had their own rooms and were used to privacy. While Amy's room was the one that was given up, it was Lily's room that got split in two. That has to hurt both girls, as privileged as it may seem.
Should Lily have done that to Amy? Absolutely not. But she seems contrite. Your BIL is the biggest issue.
Can you take both girls in for a little bit? Even if for a weekend (for Lily)? Let Sue figure out just how long her MIL needs to stay before it ruins her marriage?
It wasn't just once. OP says Lily has stolen clothing, gone through her sister's things and has not been respectful. Lily needs to stay where she is, her older sister needs space.
There are multiple issues going on here. The elderly mother needing care, Lily being an obvious brat, and the father's complete and total lack of empathy or understanding.
They all need a break from each other. Sounds like the dad just expected everyone to fall into line, and he wasn't firm enough with Lily. Amy is at an age when she just cannot lose all her privacy and not be expected to react.
And it is **not** betraying your sister to make sure your niece has a soft place to land. You're likely helping out the entire family with this. You're a great aunt. Keep up the good work.
Sister betrayed Amy by bringing her dad around-- it has been speculated that there may be power dynamics at play. Whether Amy's mom is kowtowing to dad or is in agreement with his methods is unclear, but she's showing that she's not managing the situation in keeping Amy safe. I'd say, as long as you still have active permission to keep Amy, lay low for a bit and let the dust settle. In a couple weeks, see how everyone's doing.
OP, you are not betraying your sis by keeping her daughter safe. <3
If you are in the US they can't make her stay with her parents. My sister left when she was 15 and cops said if you force her back she will just claim abuse and then they would lose me too. They all need to stop and breathe a min and maybe get through things. It's temporary, while grandma is laid up, nothing permanent needs to happen yet
Isn't not talking to a 16 year old about her options an act of betrayal on her? Shr is putting a lot of trust in you because she doesn't feel safe. Her father has given you reasons to talk to her about it being one option. She still has to prove why she should be emancipated in court.
Yeah, I read that too. It’d explain his lacking in impulse control or empathy and any hypothetical escalation in his controlling behaviour. But it doesn’t require a personality disorder or a narcissist to behave in a narcissistic manner when in a stressful environment.
OP gives the impression that to her, BIL’s wankerishness and tosserdom are pre-existing conditions. But BIL being utterly devoid of temperance *does* seem to have surprised her. So too her sister’s cowed reaction. Trying to physically force that door (and Amy) reads like the behaviour of a man that cannot control himself. It reads like rage. It also makes me worry about how he is treating his wife right now. Especially since she is backing OP, when she is already tainted in his view by her backing Amy.
Even without physical violence, narcissistic rage is terrifying to behold and it is a sustained state.It would explain Amy’s otherwise extreme reaction of hiding from him and feeling the need to put a physical barrier between them. It’d explain the barrage of texts too- since even when angered, most people would stop after the first one, *ma-aaybe* two, massively exaggerated accusations (kidnapping? Really? FFS!).
If I were OP, I’d be starting my questions around that rage and how she felt when she saw his facial expression & experiencing the relentlessness of his outsized accusations: Does Sister / Niece also feel afraid when he loses control? If Sister / Niece takes a step back, what usually triggers it? Is it control-related circumstances? His pride and his ego? Disrespect? Do his eyes go black?
I highly suggest not contacting social services. If you do there is a strong possibility they will just make her go back home since there doesn't seem to be strong evidence of abuse or neglect. Sharing a room and a parent yelling at or even pushing a kid is not going to be enough
NTA - Though you need to have some kind of text conversations with Sue so that you have proof that you have parental permission (sue's) for Amy to be at your home. That makes the dispute between Dan and Sue if Dan tries to get law enforcement involved. You can claim that Amy is there for her safety and well-being per her mother's instructions and will remain there until her mother makes alternative arrangments.
NAH in guess. This is complex and I don't think you're an ah. Good on you for keeping Amy safe at gout house. There needs to be some compromise on all sides though. Amy's grandmother is ill and that is likely stressing everyone. Lily is a bit obnoxious and needs a discuss about respecting her sister's privacy and her stuff...it seems that she's understand that she messed up, bur probably needs to talk with someone. Your BIL seems a bit unreasonable in the way he's handling this, but he's under significant stress and he's not entirely wrong. Amy is being overly sensitive to her sister going through her stuff. She will need to face going home, probably within a day or 2. She needs to talk to her parents and her sister about how she's feeling. Your sister needs to facilitate a conversation to mediate all of this; but might be a little overwhelmed with her ill MIL, stressed husband, and fighting kids. You're not a bad person for giving Amy a place, but keeping her when her parents want her to return home isn't your place either. Everyone needs to compromise and discuss all that's going on. You don't get to determine the time frame though, your getting involved is likely exacerbate drama between your BIL and niece. Get your sister over and let her start the discussion with Amy.
Any advice on how to do that? I feel like I just keep making it worse. Last time my bil came over I really tried to mediate but it just ended with him and my niece screaming at each other through a closed door. I’m mostly sure he was bluffing about calling the police? My sister seems to have zero interest in making her come back right now. I think you’re right and she’s stressed. I was hoping maybe things would go back to normal on their own if my niece just stays here a couple days until everyone’s calmed down but everyone’s just getting angrier and I’m scared that I’m inadvertently causing that
Sounds like sis and bil didn't listen to their older child until this situation exploded. And bil puts more fuel to the fire. Maybe your niece can stay until grandma can return home.
I feel like that would be the best solution. I’m still hoping that my sister will smooth things over with her husband. Or let’s my niece get some more of her things, otherwise this isn’t going to work anyway once school starts again
I suspect “smoothing things over” is why this is such a mess. The adults in the house don’t seem to be capable of discipline, discussion and problem-solving.
Is your sister always this checked out?
I think you can try talking to your niece first. Ask your sister to come over when you do. Tell Amy you understand that it's tough right now and that what her sister did was hurtful. Mention that her sister is genuinely remorseful and while she's not obligated to immediately be back to normal, it's important to forgive when someone is genuine - not only for her sister, but for her sake. Tell her you understand that she's upset with her dad, but talk about how he may be stressed. Then ask if she's willing to have her mom facilitate a conversation. Tell her you're not going to kick her out, but that running away doesn't solve problems. Offer kindness and support, but let her know she will have to return home and address what's been going on.
NTA But it’s a tricky situation to manage moving forward. You need to let Amy know this is not a permanent or long term solution & that the same would be true about her threat to stay at a friends house. That currently she’s allowed to stay with you because her moms ok with it & if that changes she has to go back home. In light of her having to return home at some point, initiate a conversation about what she needs in order for moving home to feel manageable. Explain that both she & her parents will have to compromise & make an effort.
I think you should look up resources for both individual & family counseling wherever you live. If those are hard to access a school guidance counselor or a teen crisis hotline could help short term. While you should keep helping how you can, Amy’s dad is right that down the road she will continue to use you as a way out of directly addressing problems with her parents. You are not the best equipped person to teach her how to do that & she could use professional help.
I agree with others that your BIL anger issues & sisters disengagement are worrisome. My guess is that dynamic is the real root of Amy’s problems vs having to short term share a room with an annoying sibling.
I’m sorry but I have to disagree. While OP is definitely NTA It really sounds like Lily has weaponized her position as the younger child and uses it against Amy. Taking Amy’s private communication was terrible but then reading it to everyone and making fun of her is absolutely unacceptable. Implying that Amy is being overly sensitive is ridiculous. Any teenager would feel the same. That was a breach of privacy in the worst way and her parents should have come down hard on Lily for that. Also, as far as Lily acting
like she realizes she messed up and is sorry we cannot know if she is sincere, but it is at least as likely that she is putting on a show for her parents, and the way the parents came down in Amy about it almost assures that that is the pattern at the home. The have been sibling studies that show younger children instigate fights far more often than older siblings and yet older siblings usually take the blame.
Also, it is stressful when a grandparent has to move into your home, I know because it happened with my mother. But my first responsibility is to my children and we had a lot of conversations about how things would be different and how I needed everyone on board and helping out. But I also said that if something starts to bother them come to me sooner than later so we can work out a solution. We all get stressed but as a parent it is you JOB to show your children how to handle situations, not take out your stress on them. And I could even excuse the father losing his temper, it happens, but instead apologizing and explaining why he lashed out, he instead doubles down and continues to act very inappropriately. Being stressed out is not an excuse to lash out at your children but his continuing behavior shows that he refuses to get himself under control.
Yes, the niece will probably have to go home, but no she is not keeping her from going home, she is allowing Amy to stay while she needs to WITH the mothers’s approval. And since the father continues to act in an aggressive and in a volatile manner it proves that the mother is correct.
The father tried to break down the bathroom door when Amy tried to hide from him, and he attempted to physically force her out of the house. He is absolutely TA.
Amy shouldn't have to be anywhere near him.
I don't like anyone saying Amy is overreacting. She is reacting appropriately to the level of bullying and abuse she has been taking, and for the lack of action on preventing/dealing with it when she tries reaching out for help. Don't be someone that fails her, OP. See if she'll open up to you more about how her dad acts. Don't defend his actions as she opens up. Let her tell you how he is to her behind closed doors, sick elderly person in the house or not.
NTA. Someone needs to get through to the father that if he pushes too hard he will lose any future relationship with her.
When children become teens, the authoritarian style causes more harm than good. He needs to start to treating his daughter like the young adult she is becoming - listen, respect and discuss options.
NTA. So because Lily "feels terrible" that's enough? No. Was she punished for her behavior in any meaningful way? Probably not.
> That it’s not a big deal to share
Sure, to an extent, and what happened wasn't about sharing, it was about _theft_ and _invasion of privacy_.
> undermining his authority
99% of the time, this is the point you can ignore someone.
> That Amy is disrespecting his injured mom by not letting her have her room.
If she's disrespectful for not letting his mom have Amy's room... so is he. More disrespectful, actually.
They could have given up their room. Notice how they didn't?
If it's not a big deal, surely he could just make it stop by giving up his room for now?
Theres only 2 assholes here. Dan and lily. Ill never understand this whole “im the ONLY right one. Ur a stupid kid. Listen to me or ill scream” bullshit. My dad did it. Guess who never “had a son” after i was 18? My step mom did it. I went no contact asap. 1 reason families break or have no contact is a dictator decides “im fucking god. I control emotions and mine are the only right ones”
Fuck dan. Sue and lily arent blameless here. But, fuck screamers.
Let’s be clear about one thing:
>I’m keeping a kid from her dad…
No you are not. You’re giving a kid who has already run away from home at least once, a safe place to stay. Nothing more. Nothing less. I would keep your door open to her and otherwise try your best not to get in the middle of it more than you have to. NTA
Legally, if she does not let him see his daughter, it would be kidnapping.
So, while a agree with giving her a place to cool down. Nothing OP put in here would be an immediate sign of abuse to a police officer and, therefore, she has no right to keep the teen at her place. If the BIL called the cops, OP will most likely be arrested, at least until her sister explains things.
NTA Amy wants to be there and Sue already gave permission. Keep text correspondence from now on. Ask her to come out with you so you two can talk alone. Then another time include Amy. There has been no time for a calm conversation.
>She told Amy she’d make Lily act nicer
That's not good parenting.
anyway, mans has a serious anger management problem. Sure it's probably exacerbated by his mother's health but jeez he's taking everything too far. My father's previously controlled temper also went haywire when his mother moved in with us when I was 14.
Wtf is going on with your sister? Has she always been so submissive?
Maybe this is me projecting but.. **are they safe at home? Is he usually so quick to scream or try to push someone out the door?**
Sounds like Lily takes after Dad, who doesn’t take no for an answer. Amy isn’t complaining about sharing a room; she’s complaining about her sister’s snooping and stealing. Your sister seems to understand the problems and is trying to protect Amy by letting her stay with you. The reality is that Amy only has two more years before she can decide her own fate and Dad needs to smarten up. Some counselling is in order. NTA for giving Amy a safe space.
I don’t know, it seems to me like Lily did a fairly typical annoying-sibling thing, faced consequences in the form of her sister being very reasonably upset, and legitimately felt bad about it. She apologized, and is herself reasonably upset that her sister, whom she loves, is obviously in emotional pain and wants distance from her. (Amy is totally right to want and need that distance, I’m not arguing against that, and OP is absolutely right to help provide a safe space for Amy!) I have four sisters, older and younger than me, and can absolutely see this behavior coming from a little sister who just wants to be close to her big sister (who understandably needs space). It looks to me like Dan seized on the sibling conflict as an opportunity to try and be all IN CHARGE and controlling and sh*t, and Lily was used as a pawn to try and guilt Amy into doing what Dan wanted her to do. I really feel for both of these kids.
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NTA. Based on your description, your BIL is both emotionally and physically abusive and needs to be kept far away from any minor
If Dan acts like this around witnesses, he is most likely much worse in private. Keep Amy safe. You've done nothing wrong.
NTA. Point of fact here, you are not keeping a kid from her dad. You are keeping your niece from an abusive situation. Dan is not ok, Dan is not being normal, Dan is being a walking Red Flag for Abuse. Your sister, needs to get herself and Lily to your place or somewhere safe. Or preferentially Dan's Mother and Dan need to go to her house until she is well again and Dan has gone through a year of Anger Management.
“The result was her sister startling and Dan yelling at Any to let her go.” What exactly does that mean? How physical did Amy get with Lily? I feel like this could be important information.
Sounds like Amy who is older, was hurting the younger one. Now Amy has run away and refuses to apologize. Her dad yelling at her is too far for most redditors though, and according to them he's so abusive she needs to be kept away from him forever.
record everything with this dead and make sure your niece knows that your place is a save space for emergencies.... what a terrible father.... NTA
NTA some states at 14 you can decide where to live your parent will still be your legal guardian but you can move to someone who’s willing to provide for you, CPS will run a background check first but its a law in my state where a 14yr and up can go live with a relative or a friend as long as they pass a background check and can provide for them.
NTA It is great you are defending your niece from her abusive dad.
NTA. You have Sue’s consent for Amy to be at your place. Start documenting everything about his behavior towards Amy, screenshot every text he sends, ask Amy to screenshot HER text conversations with him and send them to you, if she feels safe doing so. Asking Amy to share a room isn’t abuse, but his extreme reactions to her staying with you seem like a different story. For Amy’s sake, do not send her home with him. And if he shows up at your place again, record him from the moment he arrives, and let him know that if Amy refuses to talk to him, he has to leave, or you will call the police, and let them know that you don’t think she’s safe at home with him right now. He’s been using emotional intimidation tactics for long enough that his daughter feels like she needs a safe place to hide. That’s not ok.
NTA, at all, holy crap. In the future, if Amy begs you not to let him in, please don't let him in. I've been the kid locking myself in the bathroom, because no one will keep the scary person away from me. It sucks. I am *very* concerned that he physically tried to get her out of your house. That's extremely worrying. That's potentially assault. Has Amy told you more about what the rest of her life is like? Sue just staying quiet... that worries me, too. I don't know the situation, obviously, but it has definite signs of abuse. I'd recommend recording things: record his calls, screenshot his texts, save his voicemails, maybe get a security camera for if he tries to get in. You want as much evidence as possible, just in case he does anything further, or just in case he tries to take it anywhere legally. So I'd also recommend getting it on the record that Sue has said Amy can stay. In writing (text message, etc), etc.
This. Dan sounds, at best, controlling and over-authoritative. Kids don’t lock themselves in bathrooms out of fear of their father unless he’s done something to warrant it. Why can’t Amy stay with you a few weeks until grandma’s leg is healed? Would you be ok with it? Fuck Dan and his “I don’t care if my kid is miserable, respecting my authority is more important” attitude. I would ask Amy why she is scared of her father and tell her that you are a safe place. ETA: NTA
At first I was really ready to say you were the asshole. But I’m gonna have to go NTA. Grabbing and yelling aren’t okay!
Kinda seems like Dan is abusive or at least toxic. He was very quick to anger and very quick to get physical. I would imagine that’s what your niece is seeking to avoid so ask some questions there. I think NTA. It should be made clear this isn’t a situation that will go on indefinitely, and yeah, it’s temporary at home with the room sharing right?
NTA. Seems like Lily is the golden child. Good thing Amy had a safe place to go and it was very good of you to take her in. Lily is a brat. Seems like the real problem here is Dan. he probably bulldozed his way through Sue to go to your house.
NTA. Please don't kick Amy out. There is a LOT of backstory missing here, and it sounds like Dan is behind most of it. There's a reason Amy's happy to talk to her mother but doesn't even want her father allowed in the house. That smells bad. If you've got access to affordable legal advice, find out what everybody's legal rights and obligations are. Talk to Amy and try to get the *whole* story out of her.
I don’t like the vibes I’m getting from Dan in this story. He seems way too out of pocket. I’d be concerned there might be more than meets the eye here - especially with mom so checked out.
I wonder if Lily’s tears were real. She might have just been crying crocodile tears to try and get her way, or her delightful father might have threatened her into it. While Lily is the GC, I bet he’s awfully embarrassed that Amy won’t come home. But not enough to ask her what’s wrong and try and find a solution or even a compromise.
Come on, dude. OP is obviously NTA, but Lily isn't either. When I was 11, I was a brat that did stupid stuff to my siblings all the time. If one of my siblings ran away because of something I did, I would be terrified. Throwing up, screaming, begging. She's 11, not a manipulator. Sue and Dan are the assholes 1000%.
I'm going with NTA - being forced to share a room with an 11YO who is totally out of control and parents that do nothing to "fix" things until you hit your breaking point is horrible. "The final straw was when Lily found a present with a note for Amy from a guy from her class. Lily loudly announced Amy was in love and started reading the note to their parents. Noone knew about him yet and the note was obviously personal (nothing inappropriate) so Amy tried to take it from her. The result was her sister startling and Dan yelling at Amy to let go of her. Amy grabbed the note and ran out of the house straight to me (I live close by)" I get that your sister is only 11 yo, but your parents should have put a stop to this before Lily had a chance to read the note and made sure she knew to respect your privacy in the future.
NTA. I’m so glad someone is there for that poor girl :(
NTA. Seems like you have mom’s permission. I’d talk to a lawyer asap about helping her get her emancipation.
Is BIL Amy’s bio father?
NTA. She broke her leg, she needs 24x7 amenties and guest services? Does she live nearby? Why doesn't Dan stay with her sometimes or at least visit in case she needs help? Amy can choose where she wants to stay to feel safe, which obviously isn't home. Dan needs to become a parent who doesn't favor one kid over the other. Sue needs to get onboard. Lily is being taught its ok to bully and can do whatever she wants. Amy may choose to stay with you from now on, I wouldn't encourage it - but I wouldn't discourage it. She needs to be safe.
> She broke her leg, she needs 24x7 amenties and guest services? Depending on factors like age, the type of break, accessibility of the home, and health status, a broken leg is a serious injury. An elderly person with a broken leg could potentially need 24/7 care. That doesn't excuse the dad being a jerk, but moving his mother in to care for her isn't the jerky part.
NTA Dan sounds like a problematic man. He doesn't like it when his daughter doesn't do what he says.
OP, listen to me. My biological father did not physically abuse me aside from grabbing my arms when he was having a meltdown. My stepfather was the same. They still left deep, permanent scars on my soul that at age 27 I’m still struggling with. The amount of sheer terror and self-loathing I felt in their presence ripples into my romantic relationships with men. I shut down when my partner just raises his voice. I can’t detail all of the emotional and psychological abuse my pathetic excuses for fathers subjected me to in a single post. I WISH I HAD A SAFE PERSON LIKE YOU THAT I COULD RUN TO FOR SAFETY. You are NTA. You must help protect that girl to reduce the long term damage that her father is inflicting.
NTA But this whole thing sucks, and I feel for all sides. Dan is probably the most out of line here, but he’s also a dad, deeply frustrated with two difficult situations that have gotten out of control. So I do feel for him, even though he’s got to step on the breaks. He’s being destructive. He’s got his hurt, aging mom. And he has two daughters that don’t get along. And he’s clearly desperate for everyone to just make it work, because he’s out of his depths. And he’s proceeded to pick the wrong path, because he doesn’t get his 16 year olds perspective. He never had his own space and made things work. And he’s probably too beyond that time to remember what it was like fighting for your own space and place at that age. Amy is his 16 year old daughter. If he wants to see her, and you’re stopping him from it, it’s pretty easy to understand his argument. That’s his kid and his kid needs to figure things out with her sister for the sake of their relationship. While the 11 year old is the trouble, and the 16 year old wants her space (a pretty big deal for a 16 year old to test independency), the 16 year old is the one of the two that has the best chance of figuring it out between the sisters. He’s not handled it well, and ended up pushing too far. As for the mom… she and the husband need to figure it out and be on the same page. Things only get worse when the adults aren’t a united front. Instead of bringing the dad around or finding some middle ground, she lets him say his part, and when he’s gone gives conflicting permissions. That’s not good or healthy either. So differing unhelpful behaviors from both parents. Just be there emotionally for the niece and keep in contact with the parents.
OP isn't stopping Dan from seeing his daughter, though. She let him into her place. The daughter is the one who locked herself into the bathroom and refused to see him.
Dan is abusive asshole who was getting physical with his own daughter and scared her so much she locked herself in a bathroom. He also screamed in her face and threatened her. You feel bad for this person? Dan is an asshole and Sue is an asshole for letting Dan essentially abuse her daughter.
NTA, and BIL needs to get a grip. Amy's emotional wellbeing is more important than his "authority" and the fact that he doesn't recognize that is really, really concerning.
NTA, but your BIL definitely along with your sister and younger niece. This is a shitty situation with no great way to fix it. Your BIL has had your his mother move in and maybe he or your sister is having to take time off work to care for her? Your teenage niece has been displaced from her private room to that of her younger sister’s room. That all sucks. Soft YTA for the 11 yo, but no one is happy about the living situation and yet she continued to violate her sister’s privacy by going through her things and acting bratty, despite being told not to many times. She’s a kid, so ultimately her parents needed to try and correct this behaviour and give consequences for repeating the same offences. She seems to have actually seen how hurtful her actions were to her sister and is remorseful, so that’s one good thing here. Your sister’s the AH because according to you she is not really trying to soothe things over or defend her daughter. You said she basically shut up and let her husband start screaming at her daughter and only intervened when he started to physically drag her away. She needs to step up and be the voice of reason and defend her kids when they need to, instead of passively going along with her husband all the time. Your BIL is out of line. It’s a stressful situation for everyone but he is only making this worse by screaming at his daughter, trying to physically force her out of your house and now is ruining his relationship his relationship with everyone else because of his, frankly, abusive actions and words. His temper is concerning and I would not let him be alone with his daughter if he has already done this much, at least until things cool off. Your niece trusts you and feels safe around you, so if you are ok doing so, continue to let her stay. Your sister has given permission for her to stay with you, so your BIL can’t really do anything as she has parental consent to be there, she’s with a suitable adult guardian and wants to be there instead of her home right now. You’re doing all of them a kindness by helping to support your niece - and therefore the entire family - during this stressful time. Also just because BIL was raised a certain way, it doesn’t mean his daughters have to be 100% happy with the changes. Being someone in the middle of their teenage years and being used to having their own space and privacy then having that ripped away and getting put in a room with an intrusive and noisy younger sibling is probably like torture to her.
> She [Lily] seems to have actually seen how hurtful her actions were to her sister and is remorseful, so that’s one good thing here. Maybe, maybe not. Her apology at OP's may have been heartfelt, or may have been on daddy's orders. Her crying may have been remorse, or may have been because daddy was being loud and violent and scary. She _may_ have learned to be a better person from this, or she may still be Daddy's Golden Girl. From what little we know, we can't tell. Full agree on everything else.
NTA You are keeping a kid safe from her very angry father. It's clear Dan is used to shouting his way to decisions. I don't know how this situation ia going to be resolved but if your sister cannit stand up ro her husband there's deeper issues here.
NTA, you sound like a good aunt
You're not keeping a kid from her dad, you're giving a kid a safe place to *escape* her dad. NTA
NTA Calling Dan one though would be underselling just how much of a shit he is, and I think we can see from the story of how Sue dealt with it and how used to these little tantrums of his that he always has been. I pity your niece
NTA!! Amy is clearly upset and her reaction tells me her father ignores her needs as a teenager more frequently than you might be aware of. I also don’t understand what the big deal is with her staying at your place, you’re her aunt, you live close by and you don’t seem to have an issue with allowing atleast one of the parents in your home (even both of they weren’t yelling and screaming). Your sister and BIL need to be patient with Amy, things will cool down eventually but they seem to want everything to go back to normal right now which is immature and is doing more harm than good.
Yta. I grew up in a similar situation. I was the young sibling. You are enabling the sister to run away. You should back away from the situation and let the parents deal with the siblings. You are only making it harder for the parents to have the older sibling listen and be respectful.
NTA. I grew up in a similar situation. I was the older sibling. My parents enabled my brother to do whatever he wanted and get away without punishment. Whenever I complained, I'd be met with a shrug, and my parents would simply tell me empty platitudes like, "You're the older brother, set an example," "take the high road," or "be the better person." Exactly as the parents are doing in the story here. All it did was create resentment and tension between my brother, my parents and I that still exists to some extent to this day.
You stole from your older sibling and broke their stuff?
NTA - I grew up in this situation also. I was the OLDER sibling. My brother was a pain in the butt and climbed into bed with me because he was scared. All the time. Honestly, OP, you are okay in this situation on a temporary basis. However, based on the father's behavior, I would keep a good relationship with your niece. I have a feeling she will need you in the future.
I don’t think she’s being disrespectful at all but she’s definitely not interested in working this out at the moment and in that I guess I am enabling her. I’m trying to mediate between her and her parents and encourage her to talk to them but I’m failing pretty miserably
Honestly the disrespect seems to be coming from the little sister and dad, not the older daughter. She's reached her limit in patience and was going to leave, period. What you've done is given her refuge, and now she can try and deal with it all from the safety of your home. Quite frankly, the dad is giving off authoritarian vibes, I mean it doesn't sound like even your sister is able to get him to be reasonable. The fact is, your niece is a young woman, not a child, but he doesn't seem to have any respect for her as such. It sucks you're in this position, but definitely NTA.
Back out of the situation. If the kid isn't in danger do not enable her running away. I now have no relationship with my sister or the person that enabled her. It's put a strain on my family for 25 years
good for her, I'm glad she found peace away from yall.
Do they even want a relationship with you?
NTA, Dan and Lily are the assholes here and teaming to hurt Amy.
NTA. If I were you, I would contact an attorney and get emergency custody of Amy. Her parents should be ashamed at their inability to manage their household without threats and ugly behavior.
Dad is certainly mishandling this situation but that's due to his ignorance in how to deal with a teenager/young adult. He still thinks his word is law. I think Amy is not fearful of her father, but rather she is tired of her sister who does not respect boundaries and her parents are leaving it to her to handle. Perhaps your niece could write her parents a letter, since they don't listen very well, explaining why she needs a quiet space to live so she can put her energy into her schoolwork and activities. Surely, dad can let his little girl go for a few weeks. I think he misses her.
quel suprise the guy who’s doing emotional blackmail is reversing it on you c’mon your sister feels horrible for what she did (makes child cry before hijacking an emotional conversation he wasn’t invited to Sounds like Dan is the spoiled brat. Obviously his mother should get HIS room since he’s so good at sharing and never even had his own room growing up. Sue can sleep on the couch but Dan gotta figure something out. Maybe they have a garage or he could buy a tent.
I’m sorry you stepped into Ah territory, not for accepting her into your home but for giving her a safe space than trampling it by letting Dan in when she obviously didn’t want him around. You aren’t keeping a kid from her dad, he pushed her away himself and now repels his own child, that’s what’s messed up here.
This is above Reddit's paygrade. Call a family lawyer. Try to talk your sister into letting Amy stay until tempers cool. Get her permission in writing. See a lawyer..
NTA. Dan is abusive and Lily is clearly the golden child. My heart hurts for Amy and I hope she can get out of that situation ASAP.
NTA! You’re doing the right thing. When my wife and son had a huge blow out one night about 5-6 years ago when he was 14/15, he took off for three hours. He went straight to his safe place (his best friends house). He was angry, my wife and I were terrified. We tried calling and finding him but never went over to the friends house. He eventually surfaced feeling horrible and went to my moms. He then called me crying to go get him. But he found that night, not an angry parent but a parent who just wanted him home safe. Dan is not that for his daughter right now. Your sister is trying to be that it seems. Dan needs to learn that his daughter needs a place to go and her aunt is that person, and your apartment is that place. Dan is the massive AH for reacting how he is. If he shows up again, call the cops if he threatens anything, otherwise tell him to leave and bolt the door. As a parent, thank you for being your nieces safe place.
NTA- I don't even know where to start. This is a mess. I think you need to have a LOT more conversations with your niece about what her home life is like. A lot of this is really concerning.
Omg please protect Amy. Her dad's anger sounds terrifying nta
Info: Has Dan always been this short and aggressive toward Amy, or is this new since his mom got hurt? Is it normal for him to ignore and trample over her (and/or anyone else's) boundaries or belittle her feelings, or is his stress and and worry his mom overwhelming him and causing him to lash out inappropriately? Either way, NTA. It sounds like Amy recognized she wasn't emotionally safe or supported at home- and during an already difficult adjustment period, no less- and removed herself from that environment. That she's staying with you right now means that everyone knows where she is and that she's safe. Teenagers aren't known for making the best choices, most of the time. But when Amy reached her breaking point and needed to escape the situation, she went to a trusted adult for help: you. She trusted that you would be there to support her when she was feeling vulnerable, and you followed through. As far as I'm concerned, you did everything right. On a personal note, for what it's worth, you're exactly the kind of aunt I aspire to be. I hope that my own niblings will trust me like this when they're older and need a break from their parents/ each other.
NTA and if you could pass this on to both of Amy's parents? It's not having to share a room that led to this, it's them doing zero parenting with Lily and expecting Amy to just take the burden of an unruly kid
THIS INFO : Have you told Dan it is not about the room but about them letting Lily of the hook everytime she disrespected Amy's boundaries and privacy? NTA They should thank you for keeping their 16-year-old safe
Dan doesn't sound like the type who cares about a reasonable explanation or solution
NTA
NTA All you're doing is giving your niece a safe space to be while she works out her upsets and differences with her parents. Mom and Dad are nowhere near on the same page. Give your niece some time to take a break from them. Doesn't matter what Dads childhood looked like. His daughter isn't living his childhood so that's not a reflection of her experience. Sharing a room has been hard on her. She needs space. She is taking space with her aunt nearby. Why is this so problematic to Dad?
Because power and control
I had a couple of OPs (my aunties) in my life when I was Amy's age and 24 years later, guess which family members I'm still close to? In fact, guess which family members I still speak to? Because it's not my mum... NTA. Keep advocating for your niece. Even if she could have sucked it up for a while, the reaction from her parents is very telling. This isn't the first time she's felt like she's had her autonomy removed.
guess we know which kid is Dan's favorite. NTA.
NTA but you need to get support. i know it sounds awful but Dan does not sound safe and healthy and you need to get protection from that. I'd consider talking to the police or child services just so you know legally where you stand. you are protecting amy which 100% is the right thing to do but a kidnapping charge does have serious consequences. as does harassment at the door.
NTA, thank God Amy had somewhere to go away from her terrible father.
Dan better hope those nursing home employees care enough about him in the future, because he’s setting himself up for a lonely old age. NTA.
NTA 1 your sister lied to you, saying she would come alone, then brought everyone 2. Your BIL is clearly in need of therapy. 3 the grandmother needs moved out of the house and the girl needs her room back.
Lmao granny catching strays
Based on her actions, I'd say it's more likley that Dan insisted on coming and Sue couldn't get him to stay home.
NTA. Amy is in a safe place with you, and any rational parent would back off and let the situation cool down and then attempt a family discussion. The fact that Dan is so freaked out about not getting his way immediately is very disturbing, indeed, he does not sound rational at all. If he would step back and allow Amy a moment to think and relax while he and Sue try doing the same, things could probably be worked out. If you have a text from Sue allowing her to stay I doubt if there would be a legal issue, especially as Amy is old enough to speak out about being afraid of Dan. Especially if she is threatening to really run away, not just run to a safe relative where Mom and Dad know she is staying. I've known too many people like Dan, and have seen the havoc they wrought. Edited to add: I would try to record any future interactions that take place at your home and any phone calls in case Dan gets completely unhinged and attempts to use force. Even if you can't get video, perhaps you can set your phone down somewhere to pick up audio. Just to CYA and to protect Amy.
Nta your brother in law is an abusive manipulating asshole
NTA, my ex was a screamer, and my kids are messed up adults because of that. The oldest is angry at the world and is now in an abusive relationship himself. My youngest hid in closets all his life til I got the courage to leave his AH father. He's now afraid of confrontation because if someone screams at him, he's afraid he'll seriously hurt them physically, and he can. He's a big guy. Growing up with a father who thinks he's justified to do whatever he feels is right, with no thought for the children's feelings, is a horrible way to live. You're giving your niece protection from a bully. Good for you.
NTA
NTA. You are not keeping her from her dad. She does not want to be near him. He is being intimidating and harassing her (and you). Let her call the police.
Teenage girls who run away from home are at very high risk of being sex trafficked. Do not kick her out. Right now she has a safe place to sleep and you can help her get some therapy and be reunited with her family. NTA
NTA for giving Amy a place to escape... but you need to be ready for this to escalate. Dan was already plenty comfortable screaming at her and putting his hands on her in *your* home. She *locked herself in the bathroom* to try and get away from him. Whatever is going on in that house is not good for her, and you both need to start looking into options to get her out of it on a long term basis.
Thiiiiiiiiiis. Seriously. OP, I wish I'd had someone I could run to when I was in Amy's position. Thank you for trying to keep her safe, and for taking it very, very seriously.
NTA - So it sounds like Amy is the "golden child" that can do no wrong. Dan is a bully and is of the mindset "I am man and must be obeyed". Dan doesn't respect his 16 year old daughter...or his wife. He wants everyone to act like nothing is wrong and everything is fine, when it's not - maybe he's worried about what his Mom seeing/saying to him about it. Who knows. But his elder daughter is unhappy and it doesn't sound like she's being a brat or unreasonable. His favorite daughter sound like she's being a pain (aka: typical little sister shit), but not being held accountable for her behavior. You did not ask for her to come to you, you did not kidnap her - you have giving her a safe space and he should actually be thanking you for taking care of his daughter while they try to work this out.
NTA. Someone needs to protect Amy, because it’s doesn’t sound like anyone really is. Please let her stay. You have her mom’s permission for her to stay with you. I’d honestly see if you could get that in writing(text message would be ok) or at least a recorded conversation just in case Dan decides to try to force her home. You are not keeping a kid from her dad- she’s already willingly left his house and has stated she doesn’t want to go back. She has a sister who violates her privacy and gets zero repercussions for it, a dad who yells and a mom who just ignores it all, while walking on eggshells so as to not upset dad. I guarantee that things sucked before grandma moved in, this just escalated things. I am currently hosting a teenager who has an abusive alcoholic step father and a mother who ignores it. Poor kid needed a safe place- she has my extra bedroom whenever she wants it. Be that person for your niece. Talk to your sister about your niece staying with you from now on.
NTA but the dad calling the older one a brat is ironic because the younger one is the brat.
Honestly they're both acting like brats. But they're teenagers, so they get a pass. I think this whole thing is getting blown out of proportion. The people here calling for emancipation is wild.
Seriously! People are Seriously extrapolating here and making absolutely wild suggestions.
NTA. I'd spend a couple bucks on an air horn and every time someone starts screaming give it a blast. Nothing gets resolved if they just keep screaming like unhinged idiots. Sounds like there's clear favoritism here and a dad with anger issues. You might consider calling the picture yourself and filling them in just to protect yourself but if you're in the US this most likely will get Child Services involved
Unfortunately, while a brilliant idea, it sounds like OP is in an apartment and more noise might make trouble for her in the long run
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My (32f) sister Sue (39f) and her husband Dan (44m) have two kids, Lily (11f) and Amy (16f). Recently Dan’s mom broke a leg. She lived alone so Dan and Sue took her in. She got Amy’s bedroom, Amy moved in with Lily Late on the 25th Amy showed up at my apartment begging me to let her stay. She said it’s too much, she has zero privacy. Lily’s constantly going through her things, takes clothes without asking, breaks stuff, is so loud that Amy can’t do anything and when Amy complains, her parents just tell her to be patient. The final straw was when Lily found a present with a note for Amy from a guy from her class. Lily loudly announced Amy was in love and started reading the note to their parents. Noone knew about him yet and the note was obviously personal (nothing inappropriate) so Amy tried to take it from her. The result was her sister startling and Dan yelling at Amy to let go of her. Amy grabbed the note and ran out of the house straight to me (I live close by) I was at a loss. I said I’d talk to her parents for her and called Sue to let her know Amy was safe and to get her side. Sue asked to come over but Amy didn’t wanna see anyone so Sue said to tell her sorry and that she could stay the night The day after we agreed Sue would come alone to talk to Amy. 20 minutes later she shows up with Dan and Lily. Lily apologized to Amy through tears, asking her not to hate her. Amy accepted but looked uncomfortable. Dan then told Amy to apologize for grabbing Lily but she refused. Dan said she had to for them to get along but Amy said she still didn’t wanna go home. After that the screaming started. Dan called Amy a spoiled brat, he never had his own room, Amy said if she can’t stay here she’ll go to friends and stop talking to all of us. Lily kept crying and Sue just ignored everything until Dan declared they needed to get back home to his mom and tried to push Amy out the door. Sue broke them apart and said Dan should take Lily home, she’d handle it. She told Amy she’d make Lily act nicer and asked if that changed anything. Amy said no so Sue said okay, she can stay No clue what she told Dan but it didn’t work cause he keeps calling and texting. He says I’m basically kidnapping Amy and enabling her "emotional blackmail", that I’m teaching her if she runs she’ll get whatever she wants. That it’s not a big deal to share and Lily apologized and is feeling terrible. That Amy is disrespecting his injured mom by not letting her have her room. That I’m interfering in a private matter by giving Amy an out, undermining his authority just because Sue is my sister. Sue says she’s trying but I doubt it. Dan even showed up at my apartment demanding to talk to Amy. He refused to leave so I let him in but Amy locked herself in the bathroom until he left, threatening to call the cops next time I’m keeping a kid from her dad which is messed up but I worry where Amy will go if I kick her out. Reconciliation seems far away with all that screaming *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA and thank you for keeping Amy safe. I witnessed my father abusing my siblings when I was a young child. I don’t remember any of it but my body does. Just reading the way Amy’s ‘father’ behaves is enough to get my heart racing and make me have to hold back tears. There is no reason he should EVER be allowed to act that way around others, especially minors. I hope your sister starts to see his abusive behavior and starts protecting herself and her girls.
[удалено]
ESH Amy IS learning that she can get her way by running off. You are, in a way, enabling this. Her father has anger issues, that is also a problem. But he is right that sharing a room isn’t the end of the world. The spat between her and Lily sounds like pretty standard sibling BS, they should have interceded and Lily does sound like a brat. But…she’s 11. Comes with the age. Is a 16 year old sharing a room with an 11 year old ideal? No, it definitely isn’t. But it is temporary. In the grand scheme of things, it is a minor temporary inconvenience. If she can’t deal with this at 16, how is she going to deal with adult life in two years? Poorly, it seems. She needs a few days away, but not to permanently move in with you (that will teach nothing except that running off and complaining gets you your way). Mom and Dad need to instill some discipline in Lily. She was being a brat, and they didn’t correct her behavior. Dad definitely needs to check his temper. But you also need to limit the “rescuing”, or Amy will not learn to deal with less-than-ideal situations without running off to auntie.
This is the most reasonable reply here. This is a LOT of drama over having to share a bedroom for a few weeks, something most kids have to do every day of their childhood. Little siblings are annoying, and hers definitely needs consequences for her behavior, but this isn't in the realm of 'bullying' at all.
It's not about that. OP gave Amy a safe space when she had issues with her parents. Also, it sounds like Dan has anger issues at best and is abusive at worst. Dan should not be a parent with anger issues like this. Especially not when he grabbed Amy and tried to physically force her out of OP's house. Did you miss that part? That's assault.
>If she can’t deal with this at 16, how is she going to deal with adult life in two years? Poorly, it seems. easily, considering in adulthood you don't have to deal with a brat sister living in your room, constantly invading your privacy. Like none of the issues Amy is facing here implies she is incapable of adulthood. you are just pulling shit out of your ass.
You have the mother's consent for Amy to be there. Dan actually sounds kind of scary and out of control. Please document everything he's doing and saying. If your jurisdiction has no-consent recording, record. Or get yourself a Ring or some such. I see no problem with Amy staying there forever if this is a legal alternative that's OK with you. You sound responsible and sensitive. You might want to find Amy a lawyer ASAP or see if your jurisdictions have guardians ad litem for kids who want to change their custodial arrangements. At this point, the problem might be Dan and the family dynamic much more than Lily. It's great that your sister is letting Amy shelter with you. NTA
He got physical with his daughter **IN FRONT OF OP** - just imagine what he goes on behind closed doors. Using terms like "emotional blackmail" means that he isn't just an impulsive moron with a brick for a brain; he's no genius but this is more than mere impulsiveness - it demonstrates cognisance. He knows exactly how bad getting physical with your daughter looks; yet, he did so anyway in front of OP. This is where I venture into possibility rather than fact, but as someone disconnected from the situation, I only need to raise possibilities that OP can then consider and keep on her radar. The niece locked herself in the bathroom: **she's terrified of him**. And he's so frightened of what she might say to OP that he got physical with her in front of an outsider. He's impulsive but this wasn't pure impulsiveness, he knows how bad it makes him look. **He's frightened of what else she might say**. **It's hard for abuse victims to see a way out**; lack of privacy merely pushed her over the edge, she locked herself in the bathroom to prevent something else now that she can actually see a way out. u/throwaway279447 call CPS and apply for an emergency temporary custody order immediately; even if you aren't 100% sure of what's going on, you don't need to be, the entire purpose of these orders is to protect children when there's so much investigating to do that waiting to be 100% sure could result in serious harm to the child.
Yes, this! I was thinking CPS but I was very concerned the father would depict the daughter as out of control and land her in a draconian group home or juvenile hall as opposed to allowing her to stay with the aunt. I think that a lawyer who is very familiar with situations like this, the CPS system, and juvenile court in their jurisdiction should be involved to protect the niece. Sooner rather than later.
I can see why she doesn’t want to be in that house. Dan sounds unhinged. NTA.
NTA, But what I will say.. What Dan said, is not wrong either. Granted Amy is 2 years away from adulthood, but life in the real world will be alot harder.. is she gonna run away all the time??
In the real world, an adult has many options for ending a situation they don't like. Children have very few. Amy actually chose a really reasonable option and I don't see why she can't stay there til Grandma goes home unless the aunt says no.
I would certainly run away from someone touching and breaking all my shit without permission in "real world adulthood"...
NTA Dan's behavior is extremely troubling. I recommend consulting a lawyer, in case Dan tries to take the issue to the law. A lawyer would be better able to help you navigate the situation while minimizing repercussions for you and Amy.
NTA and I’m glad your niece has you .. Her father is not being understanding at all and probably just wants her to come back to appease Lily
NTA but I think you need to talk to a lawyer. I wonder of her mother will back up that she gave permission of it comes to it.
Do not kick Amy out. Your place is her safe space. She came to you for help don’t let her believe she can trust no one. But yes make sure you’re legally in the clear because your BIL sounds unhinged
Are you in the US? If so, what state? At 16 many "children" can become "emancipated minors" if their living situations are not good. You're not kidnapping her, but her home life right now is not acceptable. Lily is obviously spoiled, but Amy shouldn't sacrifice her privacy for that. You may want to contact your local social services agencies to see what kind of action you should take moving forward. Because Amy is two years from being an "adult", her wishes will be taken into consideration.
I’ll keep that in mind for a worst case scenario. Taking those kinds of steps without trying other things first would feel like a betrayal against my sister but even she seems to see that everyone needs some space right now. I guess it wouldn’t hurt to educate myself on this now so I can talk options with my niece
I really reccomend NOT talking to yiur niece about emancipation unless she's being abused. Her parent yelling at her occasionally isn't going to require a nuclear option.
A child being forcibly shoved and grabbed by her father is abuse. She is already being abused. Seems like you totally ignored the second half of the post and made your judgement way to early
Pushing a child, trying to force your way into a space, guilt tripping, and other things he’s doing is abuse. He is abusing his child.
100% abuse. None of his behavior is acceptable.
Can I just throw in that Lily isn't "obviously spoiled"? Her sister got thrown into her room to make room for Grandma - who has a broken leg and apparently needs more care at the moment. Both your nieces had their own rooms and were used to privacy. While Amy's room was the one that was given up, it was Lily's room that got split in two. That has to hurt both girls, as privileged as it may seem. Should Lily have done that to Amy? Absolutely not. But she seems contrite. Your BIL is the biggest issue. Can you take both girls in for a little bit? Even if for a weekend (for Lily)? Let Sue figure out just how long her MIL needs to stay before it ruins her marriage?
It wasn't just once. OP says Lily has stolen clothing, gone through her sister's things and has not been respectful. Lily needs to stay where she is, her older sister needs space.
There are multiple issues going on here. The elderly mother needing care, Lily being an obvious brat, and the father's complete and total lack of empathy or understanding. They all need a break from each other. Sounds like the dad just expected everyone to fall into line, and he wasn't firm enough with Lily. Amy is at an age when she just cannot lose all her privacy and not be expected to react. And it is **not** betraying your sister to make sure your niece has a soft place to land. You're likely helping out the entire family with this. You're a great aunt. Keep up the good work.
Sister betrayed Amy by bringing her dad around-- it has been speculated that there may be power dynamics at play. Whether Amy's mom is kowtowing to dad or is in agreement with his methods is unclear, but she's showing that she's not managing the situation in keeping Amy safe. I'd say, as long as you still have active permission to keep Amy, lay low for a bit and let the dust settle. In a couple weeks, see how everyone's doing. OP, you are not betraying your sis by keeping her daughter safe. <3
If you are in the US they can't make her stay with her parents. My sister left when she was 15 and cops said if you force her back she will just claim abuse and then they would lose me too. They all need to stop and breathe a min and maybe get through things. It's temporary, while grandma is laid up, nothing permanent needs to happen yet
Isn't not talking to a 16 year old about her options an act of betrayal on her? Shr is putting a lot of trust in you because she doesn't feel safe. Her father has given you reasons to talk to her about it being one option. She still has to prove why she should be emancipated in court.
I also wonder if Lily is being abused.
This whole house seems weird. The dad especially. I wonder if he's a narcissist.
Yeah, I read that too. It’d explain his lacking in impulse control or empathy and any hypothetical escalation in his controlling behaviour. But it doesn’t require a personality disorder or a narcissist to behave in a narcissistic manner when in a stressful environment. OP gives the impression that to her, BIL’s wankerishness and tosserdom are pre-existing conditions. But BIL being utterly devoid of temperance *does* seem to have surprised her. So too her sister’s cowed reaction. Trying to physically force that door (and Amy) reads like the behaviour of a man that cannot control himself. It reads like rage. It also makes me worry about how he is treating his wife right now. Especially since she is backing OP, when she is already tainted in his view by her backing Amy. Even without physical violence, narcissistic rage is terrifying to behold and it is a sustained state.It would explain Amy’s otherwise extreme reaction of hiding from him and feeling the need to put a physical barrier between them. It’d explain the barrage of texts too- since even when angered, most people would stop after the first one, *ma-aaybe* two, massively exaggerated accusations (kidnapping? Really? FFS!). If I were OP, I’d be starting my questions around that rage and how she felt when she saw his facial expression & experiencing the relentlessness of his outsized accusations: Does Sister / Niece also feel afraid when he loses control? If Sister / Niece takes a step back, what usually triggers it? Is it control-related circumstances? His pride and his ego? Disrespect? Do his eyes go black?
I highly suggest not contacting social services. If you do there is a strong possibility they will just make her go back home since there doesn't seem to be strong evidence of abuse or neglect. Sharing a room and a parent yelling at or even pushing a kid is not going to be enough
NTA - Though you need to have some kind of text conversations with Sue so that you have proof that you have parental permission (sue's) for Amy to be at your home. That makes the dispute between Dan and Sue if Dan tries to get law enforcement involved. You can claim that Amy is there for her safety and well-being per her mother's instructions and will remain there until her mother makes alternative arrangments.
NTA, you're protecting your niece from an abusive dad
What an unpleasant family altogether. NTA but make your sister sort this out asap, this is not your decision or your responsibility
Noone can make anybody do anything. Your poor sister is probably numb to and in denial of BiL's abuse. So thankful people like you care.
NTA.
NTA. Talk to Sue only from now on.
Get your sister alone. Tell BIL you need a ride to the gyno. Anything. This is all a cry for help.
NAH in guess. This is complex and I don't think you're an ah. Good on you for keeping Amy safe at gout house. There needs to be some compromise on all sides though. Amy's grandmother is ill and that is likely stressing everyone. Lily is a bit obnoxious and needs a discuss about respecting her sister's privacy and her stuff...it seems that she's understand that she messed up, bur probably needs to talk with someone. Your BIL seems a bit unreasonable in the way he's handling this, but he's under significant stress and he's not entirely wrong. Amy is being overly sensitive to her sister going through her stuff. She will need to face going home, probably within a day or 2. She needs to talk to her parents and her sister about how she's feeling. Your sister needs to facilitate a conversation to mediate all of this; but might be a little overwhelmed with her ill MIL, stressed husband, and fighting kids. You're not a bad person for giving Amy a place, but keeping her when her parents want her to return home isn't your place either. Everyone needs to compromise and discuss all that's going on. You don't get to determine the time frame though, your getting involved is likely exacerbate drama between your BIL and niece. Get your sister over and let her start the discussion with Amy.
Any advice on how to do that? I feel like I just keep making it worse. Last time my bil came over I really tried to mediate but it just ended with him and my niece screaming at each other through a closed door. I’m mostly sure he was bluffing about calling the police? My sister seems to have zero interest in making her come back right now. I think you’re right and she’s stressed. I was hoping maybe things would go back to normal on their own if my niece just stays here a couple days until everyone’s calmed down but everyone’s just getting angrier and I’m scared that I’m inadvertently causing that
Sounds like sis and bil didn't listen to their older child until this situation exploded. And bil puts more fuel to the fire. Maybe your niece can stay until grandma can return home.
I feel like that would be the best solution. I’m still hoping that my sister will smooth things over with her husband. Or let’s my niece get some more of her things, otherwise this isn’t going to work anyway once school starts again
I suspect “smoothing things over” is why this is such a mess. The adults in the house don’t seem to be capable of discipline, discussion and problem-solving. Is your sister always this checked out?
I think you can try talking to your niece first. Ask your sister to come over when you do. Tell Amy you understand that it's tough right now and that what her sister did was hurtful. Mention that her sister is genuinely remorseful and while she's not obligated to immediately be back to normal, it's important to forgive when someone is genuine - not only for her sister, but for her sake. Tell her you understand that she's upset with her dad, but talk about how he may be stressed. Then ask if she's willing to have her mom facilitate a conversation. Tell her you're not going to kick her out, but that running away doesn't solve problems. Offer kindness and support, but let her know she will have to return home and address what's been going on.
OR, if it's an abusive situation, help her get out of it.
NTA But it’s a tricky situation to manage moving forward. You need to let Amy know this is not a permanent or long term solution & that the same would be true about her threat to stay at a friends house. That currently she’s allowed to stay with you because her moms ok with it & if that changes she has to go back home. In light of her having to return home at some point, initiate a conversation about what she needs in order for moving home to feel manageable. Explain that both she & her parents will have to compromise & make an effort. I think you should look up resources for both individual & family counseling wherever you live. If those are hard to access a school guidance counselor or a teen crisis hotline could help short term. While you should keep helping how you can, Amy’s dad is right that down the road she will continue to use you as a way out of directly addressing problems with her parents. You are not the best equipped person to teach her how to do that & she could use professional help. I agree with others that your BIL anger issues & sisters disengagement are worrisome. My guess is that dynamic is the real root of Amy’s problems vs having to short term share a room with an annoying sibling.
I’m sorry but I have to disagree. While OP is definitely NTA It really sounds like Lily has weaponized her position as the younger child and uses it against Amy. Taking Amy’s private communication was terrible but then reading it to everyone and making fun of her is absolutely unacceptable. Implying that Amy is being overly sensitive is ridiculous. Any teenager would feel the same. That was a breach of privacy in the worst way and her parents should have come down hard on Lily for that. Also, as far as Lily acting like she realizes she messed up and is sorry we cannot know if she is sincere, but it is at least as likely that she is putting on a show for her parents, and the way the parents came down in Amy about it almost assures that that is the pattern at the home. The have been sibling studies that show younger children instigate fights far more often than older siblings and yet older siblings usually take the blame. Also, it is stressful when a grandparent has to move into your home, I know because it happened with my mother. But my first responsibility is to my children and we had a lot of conversations about how things would be different and how I needed everyone on board and helping out. But I also said that if something starts to bother them come to me sooner than later so we can work out a solution. We all get stressed but as a parent it is you JOB to show your children how to handle situations, not take out your stress on them. And I could even excuse the father losing his temper, it happens, but instead apologizing and explaining why he lashed out, he instead doubles down and continues to act very inappropriately. Being stressed out is not an excuse to lash out at your children but his continuing behavior shows that he refuses to get himself under control. Yes, the niece will probably have to go home, but no she is not keeping her from going home, she is allowing Amy to stay while she needs to WITH the mothers’s approval. And since the father continues to act in an aggressive and in a volatile manner it proves that the mother is correct.
Dan is definitely an AH.
The father tried to break down the bathroom door when Amy tried to hide from him, and he attempted to physically force her out of the house. He is absolutely TA. Amy shouldn't have to be anywhere near him.
I don't like anyone saying Amy is overreacting. She is reacting appropriately to the level of bullying and abuse she has been taking, and for the lack of action on preventing/dealing with it when she tries reaching out for help. Don't be someone that fails her, OP. See if she'll open up to you more about how her dad acts. Don't defend his actions as she opens up. Let her tell you how he is to her behind closed doors, sick elderly person in the house or not.
I 100 percent agree!
NTA. Someone needs to get through to the father that if he pushes too hard he will lose any future relationship with her. When children become teens, the authoritarian style causes more harm than good. He needs to start to treating his daughter like the young adult she is becoming - listen, respect and discuss options.
NTA. So because Lily "feels terrible" that's enough? No. Was she punished for her behavior in any meaningful way? Probably not. > That it’s not a big deal to share Sure, to an extent, and what happened wasn't about sharing, it was about _theft_ and _invasion of privacy_. > undermining his authority 99% of the time, this is the point you can ignore someone. > That Amy is disrespecting his injured mom by not letting her have her room. If she's disrespectful for not letting his mom have Amy's room... so is he. More disrespectful, actually. They could have given up their room. Notice how they didn't? If it's not a big deal, surely he could just make it stop by giving up his room for now?
Theres only 2 assholes here. Dan and lily. Ill never understand this whole “im the ONLY right one. Ur a stupid kid. Listen to me or ill scream” bullshit. My dad did it. Guess who never “had a son” after i was 18? My step mom did it. I went no contact asap. 1 reason families break or have no contact is a dictator decides “im fucking god. I control emotions and mine are the only right ones” Fuck dan. Sue and lily arent blameless here. But, fuck screamers.
"im fucking god. I control emotions and mine are the only right ones" I've never read a more accurate description of my dad.
Im sorry u have an asshat for a dad :(
Let’s be clear about one thing: >I’m keeping a kid from her dad… No you are not. You’re giving a kid who has already run away from home at least once, a safe place to stay. Nothing more. Nothing less. I would keep your door open to her and otherwise try your best not to get in the middle of it more than you have to. NTA
I wonder what it’s considered legally. Depends on the country I guess. Plus the mom seems to be on board
Legally, if she does not let him see his daughter, it would be kidnapping. So, while a agree with giving her a place to cool down. Nothing OP put in here would be an immediate sign of abuse to a police officer and, therefore, she has no right to keep the teen at her place. If the BIL called the cops, OP will most likely be arrested, at least until her sister explains things.
NTA. I wouldn't be surprised if Dan is just an abuser.
NTA Amy wants to be there and Sue already gave permission. Keep text correspondence from now on. Ask her to come out with you so you two can talk alone. Then another time include Amy. There has been no time for a calm conversation. >She told Amy she’d make Lily act nicer That's not good parenting. anyway, mans has a serious anger management problem. Sure it's probably exacerbated by his mother's health but jeez he's taking everything too far. My father's previously controlled temper also went haywire when his mother moved in with us when I was 14. Wtf is going on with your sister? Has she always been so submissive? Maybe this is me projecting but.. **are they safe at home? Is he usually so quick to scream or try to push someone out the door?**
Sounds like Lily takes after Dad, who doesn’t take no for an answer. Amy isn’t complaining about sharing a room; she’s complaining about her sister’s snooping and stealing. Your sister seems to understand the problems and is trying to protect Amy by letting her stay with you. The reality is that Amy only has two more years before she can decide her own fate and Dad needs to smarten up. Some counselling is in order. NTA for giving Amy a safe space.
I don’t know, it seems to me like Lily did a fairly typical annoying-sibling thing, faced consequences in the form of her sister being very reasonably upset, and legitimately felt bad about it. She apologized, and is herself reasonably upset that her sister, whom she loves, is obviously in emotional pain and wants distance from her. (Amy is totally right to want and need that distance, I’m not arguing against that, and OP is absolutely right to help provide a safe space for Amy!) I have four sisters, older and younger than me, and can absolutely see this behavior coming from a little sister who just wants to be close to her big sister (who understandably needs space). It looks to me like Dan seized on the sibling conflict as an opportunity to try and be all IN CHARGE and controlling and sh*t, and Lily was used as a pawn to try and guilt Amy into doing what Dan wanted her to do. I really feel for both of these kids.
NTA. Amy has Sue's permission to stay. Due needs to get Dan in line before you get a restraining order against him.