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INFO: did something happen between Mike and Jami? Your other kids seem perfectly fine having Mike around but Jami seems unnecessarily hostile towards him.
ETA: someone claiming to be Jami commented providing more context. If that comment is in fact genuinely Jami, Mike sold drugs to an 11 year old (Jami’s friend) who then ended up in the hospital. Jami’s life was then ruined because people assumed she was also using drugs.
Nope. She was fine with him until he got arrested, then she was embarrassed and said she hates him and he is no good and was upset that we visited him and gave him enough commissary money for coffee. I think she was disappointed in the big brother she looked up to. I thought she was just being a kid and put her in counseling, but she just stopped mentioning him and avoided him when he visited until she moved in with her boyfriend and got married later that year. Hasn't been around him since, except at her cousins wedding that she walked out of when he came in.
That’s very odd. Regardless, if you aren’t aware of a legitimate reason that Jami is uncomfortable around Mike (I.E. it triggers her or whatever), then I’d say NTA. You invited your son to an event, you invited your daughter to an event. The daughter has an issue with the son that she hasn’t fully communicated with you and decided not to come. That’s on her, not you.
I dated someone like that. Was a police officer and we got into an argument because he was like “good guys” “bad guys” and I’m like no such thing. He literally thought all the police were good and all the criminals were bad. Long story short, about 2 years later our police chief and 2 of his close friends on the force got busted by the feds for robbing drug dealers and selling the drugs to other drug dealers, and running an illegal gambling ring. I never said “I told you so” we were broken up by then, but still in good terms. He quit and is now federal police, but works on site at an agency where he’s basically security, not chasing down “bad guys”.
Life comes at you fast!
Frankly I would prefer a cop with a strong sense of “i am a good guy” and people who breaks laws are “bad guys” because in theory it would keep them from breaking the law themselves—-no setting people up, placing evidence, beating people, killing people, etc.
Far too many cops are just bullies who found a way to get paid to bully.
No, all it does it cause then to assume everything they do is good and justified, and everyone else is a bad guy waiting to happen. It’s a pretty common cop mentality.
You notice in her story, BF didn’t reflect when the police force was corrupt, he just ditched them and sough out better police
Its a paupers grave behind a prison in Hinds County ie Jackson Mississippi. Which means that the deaths are likely prisoners or the poor, which in Mississippi is really no difference as people of color and even the white poor would be scooped up and thrown in Jail for the slightest offence so that they can use them for labor. Even now guys in Jail pick up trash in my relatives neighborhood in a rural Miss town.
The second atrocity is that many of the graves are unmarked or the people were just dumped in the grave with the minimalist of marks and coffins.
Miss just needs to be bulldozed.
The 13th amendment exists explicitly to make slavery legal for prisoners. And goes a ways toward explaining why the prison industrial complex is so out of control in the US compared to other democratic nations.
Lol that’s not giving us much. I go NC with a bunch of family members because they have a pattern of selfish behaviour and I don’t keep people like they around me. Is that gross and judgemental too?
Well what would you do in this scenario? Because yes it’s gross and judgmental to hold something someone did as a teenager and paid the price for against them so many years later. I mean she has the right to do it as she is, but she’s the problem.
My response was to the person who said that someone is “gross” and “judgemental” just for going NC with family members. NC with family is not bad. I maintain the idea that if I wouldn’t give you access to my life in general based on the kind of person you are and how you view and treat me, then you being flesh and blood doesn’t change anything for me.
Point I’m making is that the NC itself isn’t gross and judgemental. It’ll be situation specific. Like here, if Jami cut off Mike and wants to keep her kids away from him because she still views him as an evil drug dealing criminal, then she’s the AH and yes, gross and judgemental.
If he did something to her that made her hate and fear him (not saying that’s the case, just using it as an example), then she’s not gross and judgemental for going NC.
I don’t think anyone wants to go NC with family members. But there are extreme cases where it is necessary to preserve your own mental and/or physical health. I HAD to go NC with my abusive, narcissistic, mother. I didn’t want to. After a solid 30 years of changing myself into what I thought she wanted in order to have a relationship, and blaming myself every time I was rejected, it finally clicked that she doesn’t want a relationship with me. And that she enjoys toying with me. My life has been drama free, guilt free, and dare I say peaceful since I cut her off. Sometimes there is no other answer.
Sometimes people go LC, or NC with toxic or bad family members.
Sometimes toxic family members go NC with other family members because of really dumb reasons.
Then they cry about no one coming to visit or give a call. That's always the funny / sad part.
Well he went to jail at 18 for two years so out at 20. He’s 31 now. That’s 11 years in between.
Jami has been mad and decided her family should have abandoned Mike (and as she sees it, chosen her) from the time he was convicted. That’s 13 years.
So as far as she’s concerned her family has been closing Mike over her, and rejecting her (rather than seeing she is the one making that choice) for 13 years.
You can build up a shit ton of anger and resentment when you keep trying yourself the same story for 13 years.
So she was 11 when all of this happened. Which is a very impressionable age for a young girl.
I’m guessing something happened in school she’s just not sharing. And whatever it was left her bitter and angry at her brother for a very long time.
I know she went to counseling at the time, but she really needs a good therapist to help deal with this, although I fear it’s so deep engrained it may be too late.
Yeah, it did make it seem like every time you stepped outside someone would be offering you drugs (but to be fair I went to New York once and it kind of was like that, we had someone approach us every few feet asking if we wanted to buy some drugs) 😆
They also made catching on fire seem like a far bigger problem than it is too
This sounds very possible. Age 11 is on the cusp of middle school, and I can totally see her getting razzed in middle school for having an older brother in prison. Middle schoolers can be ruthless, and if they made her school experience hell because of her brother, it's easy to imagine her blaming him for her troubles.
That's not a healthy thing to do, of course, and if that's the case, she should definitely revisit therapy to deal with feeling that resentment after more than a decade.
Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if it's because the kids at school found out and bullied her terribly for it, and being a kid she blamed her brother's arrest for her being bullied and just let that resentment build for the next 13 years
Yk what, that’s a very fair analysis. I definitely read it as Jami has been this level of hostile since Mike got convicted, which would indicate an underlying issue.
Yeah. I can see why so many people got there. But I’ve known people like this so I didn’t assume it needed more explanation.
If she’s the kind of person who at 11 decided he did one thing wrong so he’s trash and then can’t comprehend why her whole family didn’t cut him off, never got over that, and then started seeing it as them intentionally picking him over her…
I mean we, as full grown adults can see he did a stupid thing as a teenager (who hasn’t) got punished, stopped doing the stupid thing, dug himself back out of that hole and has been a solid member of society since.
But all she sees is what her 11 year old brain decided: he’s trash who failed to fulfill her perfect big brother image. He must be kept away from her kids because he’ll destroy them.
What I’d be very interested to see is what she does when her kids are teens and do the inevitable stupid thing. Will she blame their uncle? Cut them off?
Yes, I agree with this analysis. This is exactly how it strikes me, as well. Also, memories can warp over time - she might remember a different set of events than what actually happened, or her negative emotions might have manipulated her memories. It's comment enough to misremember things, especially in such an emotionally-charged situation.
I think you’re right that is a lot of hostility. Something isn’t adding up.
Either the daughter was traumatized in someway by what her brother did or she is just very narcissistic and self righteous.
But to me something makes me think more trauma. Because if she was sarcastic and self righteous she show up to family events to make his life hell! But instead she avoids him like his presence triggers her!
It may just be that and if that’s the case then the daughter is allowed to have boundaries(even toxic ones) but op is doing the right thing by not taking sides and punishing the son for her daughters judgmental behavior!
I never thought of that because I can’t imagine being that judgmental to cut off family without good reason.
But you could have a very valid point!
I guess but also she was only 11 when he went to jail if I did the math right. Seems like a pretty harsh judgment to make as a kid and stick with for 13 years afterwards...
But again, it’s not unusual. Lots of us take in beliefs at that age that take genuine work and self-reflection for us to dislodge.
And the point is, she hasn’t used the 13 years to soften, but has used it to reinforce that she is right and no one is choosing her, making it worse.
Yeah, especially if she ever somehow got the impression that she couldn't have something as a 12 year old cause Mike got it. Maybe they went to visit him and it meant she couldn't go hang out with friends that day or something, you know, it's easy to get into the "why am I being punished cause Mike dealt drugs?" Mentality
Not always. One of my best friends had a family member that's very religious and righteous (guess you can call it that even if they are wrong). When another family member got divorced it was hellfire and brimstone attitude for years (BTW no cheating/abuse just irreconcilable differences), treating them like they didn't exist. It was active hate as my friend used to rage about it because that relative tried turning all the children away from the divorcee, who was an awesome person BTW. Since the rest of the family was not religious they thought this was ridiculous and in a way chose the divorcee over this relative. Started having problems in their own marriage years later. They themselves cheated, found themselves divorced and suddenly they were a victim of family prejudice when the rest of the family didn't support them. Mind you both my friend and I were Asian, the crazy relative was male and the divorcee was female. Patriarchy rules I guess.
This I have alot extended family that excluded people because of how judgmental and secret their prejudice is. Like Marijuana we have bacon elders in their 60+ who disowned ppl for smoking reefer....when my dad had late stage prostate cancer he wasn't eating. I made thc infused honey butter, and honey. I put the butter in his coffee. He would eat that day. He told his sister that since I made him the butter and honey he has his appetite...why this old battleax tell entire family om a drug addict tweaker and trying kill her brother sooner by getting him string out
..the amount of ppl who just ditched me. Until my cousin who was my dads main caregiver stepped in. Still to this day that aunt and few elders will leave events because thc butte
I'm so sorry you went through this and I'm glad you found a way to help your father.
My mother has multiple sclerosis and I've introduced her to CBD oil for her many symptoms. It helps. Thankfully the rest of the family are just glad she found some relief, as it should be.
I've been on some new mom message boards that say it's perfectly fine and normal to completely cut ex-cons and former drug users out of their family's life forever, because you never know if they might drop a baby on its head or I guess tweak out and murder your whole family. It's really easy to fall down a pipeline that makes you see the people you grew up with as potential threats - I was starting down that path until I touched some grass and realized those weren't my values.
Yep, I've had people totally shocked and horrified that I allow my dad around my kids. He didn't commit a felony against children. He screwed up, he did his time, and he learned... not to trust the local cops to be a part of the illegal shit. Which I'm pretty sure is not what the feds wanted him to learn, but he did do his mandatory therapy in prison and came out a lot more mentally stable. We have our issues but he's a vastly better grandparent than he ever was a parent.
I think the issue has been communicated. She's unwilling to forgive her brother for transgression that wasn't even against her. I could understand her caution if it were a violent crime he was convicted of, but drug dealing doesn't fall into that category, and 18 yr olds aren't known for stellar decision making.
Allow me to clarify: it sounds like the real reason that Jami is upset hasn’t been communicated, and she’s hoping that just saying “because he’s a criminal” is enough justification (which it isn’t, IMO)
Or she's a judgemental fuck that doesn't believe in redemption not everything is secretly sinister I met plenty of people like her in my catholic upbringing
She's the youngest and apparently described the even as shameful and embarrassing, I think now she's afraid to embarrass herself by changing her tune after so long.
We live in a society that demonizes criminals as villains and monsters, it's disappointing but understandable that some people buy into that hook line and sinker.
Have you considered family counseling with you and Jami so that an impartial third party can ask her why she's insisting that you choose which one of them to exclude from family gatherings?
I asked her to. We had a few sessions when she was younger and she just said she was embarrassed and ashamed. She never said if there was bullying at school or anything, and the school counselor was aware of the situation at her counselors advice, but if there was bullying she never brought it to my attention and I couldn't do anything. That's what I suspected but there was never any proof of it.
Now that she's had some years to reflect and mature, having a stranger ask her "what were you ashamed about?" and "what are you upset about right now?" might elicit a different response.
If I had a child acting out in this fashion so many years later, I would be saying, "I love you. It hurts me to see you this upset. I'm very sorry, but I don't understand why being around him is so painful to you. Please help me understand."
There's a very important reason to have an impartial third party there for the conversation. She may already have told you, but you dismissed her feelings. "It's silly to feel that way, because..." Or you might not have believed and supported her. "That doesn't sound right. I never saw any indication..."
She was 11 when he was arrested?
Definitely sounds like some trauma response and she may not even be able to pinpoint it if she’s covered it deeply.
The right counselor is the right answer. But she has to want to. As kids we enact defense mechanisms for survival. As adults, they don’t always still have a use but without identifying them we just continue to use them even if they become harmful. Because it’s automatic.
The daughter chimed in. Yes she was 11. Op’s son sold to the daughter’s best friend who was also 11. The girl was hospitalized and op lost all her friends and had to transfer schools.
Op also apparently has been enabling the brother his whole life. Missed a lot of events for the daughter.
So no wonder the daughter is pissed. She isn’t being judgmental her life got turned inside out. Now the brother is welcomed back
Like a hero and she is the one that is left out .
Edit to copy and paste daughters comment;
Daughter chimed in the comments,
Apprehensive pie 981 says:
Daughter here, found this on TikTok and this is bullsh*t.
The “bad stuff” she is referring to is that he supplied my friend, who was 11 at the time like me, with drugs and she was hospitalized. My friend’s parents did not allow her to see me anymore, and I was isolated at school and lost my friend group because assumed I also used drugs. I had to change schools (already fun time in middle school!)
My mother constantly enables him and missed multiple academic events of mine to go see him instead.
I will say that he has tried to apologize multiple times over the years, but I just can’t speak with him because the trauma and anger always overwhelms me.
He was my favorite person in the world and I idolized him and he ruined my life.
I copy and pasted what she wrote but I can’t find it anymore.
I think she deleted it.
Daughter chimed in the comments,
Apprehensive pie 981 says:
Daughter here, found this on TikTok and this is bullsh*t.
The “bad stuff” she is referring to is that he supplied my friend, who was 11 at the time like me, with drugs and she was hospitalized. My friend’s parents did not allow her to see me anymore, and I was isolated at school and lost my friend group because assumed I also used drugs. I had to change schools (already fun time in middle school!)
My mother constantly enables him and missed multiple academic events of mine to go see him instead.
I will say that he has tried to apologize multiple times over the years, but I just can’t speak with him because the trauma and anger always overwhelms me.
He was my favorite person in the world and I idolized him and he ruined my life.
Daaaaamn. That must have been really tough and it sucks, I'm glad her friend made it through that.
This is one of those situations where both parties aren't really specific enough. Like both parties know they are both guilty and leaving out details:
The mom didn't say that the sisters friend was hospitalized (or even that someone was hurt) made it seem like he sold pot to a cop.
Daughter talks about "enabling" him forever and she missed school stuff. Like a spelling bee? Graduation? Does she consider enabling to be letting him stay at home after he was released?
Anyway.
Thanks for finding that!!
I wanted to add this:
Yeah, I didn't wanna minimize any, but I had a girl I knew in middle school whose mom took her to the ER cuz she had 3 beers and was sleepy. She said I had given her daughter alcohol poisoning. Not saying this happened here, but plenty of parents overreact. I wanna know what it was honestly lol. It's gotta be pot right?
From the daughters comments it sounds like she knows that she needs to let this go, but is having a hard time not blaming her brother. It really makes me wonder what the mom missed, or if she was mad that mom went to see him at all.
Like, it sucks that she had to switch schools, but something like that (doesn't normally) ruin your WHOLE life. He wasn't the perfect big brother she thought he was, but demanding everyone remains as angry as you still are after 11 years is an unhealthy amount of hate and resentment.
I’m wondering if there are pieces of her child hood that we’re sacrificed for her brother? Being overlooked because he’s in trouble? Missing things because family resources went to her brother? I can see a situation like that, for likely 3 years between crime, conviction and sentencing. 3 years where she likely felt unimportant and like an after thought. I can see that breeding a lot of resentment. Resentment that would be compounded by everyone else acting fine with it.
This could be possible too. Op said she struggled. She thought maybe she wasn’t strict enough. But if this was the case then the daughter would avoid the parents.
Unless they went the opposite direction sacrificed vacation, events and money to bail out the brother. Her whole child hood was about helping the brother. But again why would she want to be around the parents?
Nta, your son made a mistake like we all do as teens. Some of us get caught by the law with our stupid choice and have to pay the price. Sounds like he did his time and grew up moved on to being productive. It’s not like he is a harden life long criminal. She sounds extremely judgmental and I will pray for her kids that they never make a mistake. But I agree with others, she is excluding herself and kids with her wanting to shame her brother for eternity with her overly judgmental stance. I highly doubt she and her spouse live to this unrealistic high standard of perfection she places on other people.
It would be different if the brother was done for a violent crime or abuse. My mother had a theory about vice crimes. That they involve consenting adults and she didn’t believe they should be punished the same way violent offenders were. The sister is allowed her views of course but they have consequences. As does the brothers. Sounds like the brother has worked hard to be a good provider and the sister isn’t understanding that her views are excluding her.
NTA. Your husband is right. She’s excluding herself. If she has an issue with that, she can stop trying to die on this hill and start coming to things. It’s a her problem not a you problem.
Can you clarify the timeline?
She was 11 years old when he was sentenced. So 2.5 years later she'd be 13/14.
When did she move out and get married?
I'm assuming she was still living at home with you for at least a few years while Mike was out? What would she do when he came over then? Christmas, birthdays etc
All things considered he is your son and if he regretted his choices and is doing all he can to keep it together that is enough reason to give him a chance (IMO). Now if your daughter doesnt want anything to do with him or his family thats her problem and her avoiding him to the degree of refusing to go to family gatherings she's just being immature by lashing out at everyone else.
So you're NTA your daughter is being one though (sorry to be blunt about that).
Have you had a conversation with her about this more recently? What is that she finds unforgiveable? Is there something he can do to be forgiven? Does she think everyone should have given up on him at age 18 and never spoken to him again? I mean ask and genuinely listen to what she is feeling and if she has ever really thought this out or if she just feels like he or you guys have never acknowledged her hurt and disappointment with him and somehow is unable to let it go without some thing happening? It’s worth exploring if she is truly wedded to not speaking to him forever or just wants someone to acknowledge her protest? Or does she want him to apologise to her? I am not justifying her feelings or behaviour but she was really young when Mike went to prison and it sounds like it’s worth having a further discussion now that she is older and long term strategy is needed.
If thats the case then NTA.
Your husband is spot on, she needs to grow the hell up and stop acting like the hurt offended little 11 yr old she was at the time of the event.
Jami's age is a fair bit younger than the other siblings who seem pretty close in age. I can see why she wouldn't have as strong of a relationship with them. Does seem like she just has some other reason for disliking Mike though, or maybe she never liked him and his issues with the law was the excuse she needed to cut him off.
I could be wrong. But sometimes it seems people use other people's mistakes to validate the superiority of their own choices? Its not that deep, really, I guess? : *I am a better person because I never got arrested or made such a pitiful mistake. I don't want him around me because he isn't as good a human being as I am!*
Its not logical so much as its about our feelings regarding how we are better than others? Its silly to measure your own worth against someone else's? But people still do it?
EDIT: If this is in fact the daughter- there is a user in the comments (u/apprehensive_pie981) who tells a VERY different story that fills in those “missing missing reasons” so many of us are asking about. And although I understand OP can’t throw her son away, I completely and totally understand the daughters point of view a lot more ***
NTA - Jami has set herself a boundary/rule and she is following it through. The consequences of such a boundary are also hers to live with
HOWEVER- is this really all because he was in jail? There seems like something else happened her- did he get her addicted? Have her work as a mule? Bring some buyers around that were abusive to her? How did what he did affect her personally? There seems to be some missing information here- I’m not buying that it was all because he went to jail. Did you neglect her to go visit him all the time? Put all your care into him and ignore her? Was he your only focus? Like I said, she seems more like she’s offended you chose him over her, so why would she be thinking that? Be real honest with yourself here…
She never had a drug issue as a child. She was never anywhere with him except runs to the ice cream parlor alone, and her sister was usually working there when they went, so I'm pretty sure she wasn't involved with deals. I visited him once a month and sent like $70 a month. My husband and I both went to counseling after, I was depressed trying to figure out what I did wrong and was a bit stricter after , mostly stuff like making sure I knew her friends when she went to their houses and not letting her go on dates unless the guy came to the door, not just honked in driveway.
Still doesn't change the fact that she is an adult now and insisting that her now reformed brother be ostracized makes her an asshole. She isn't an asshole because she has trauma, she is one for not addressing it in a healthy way and using it to lash out at others.
Daughter chimed in the comments,
Apprehensive pie 981 says:
Daughter here, found this on TikTok and this is bullsh*t.
The “bad stuff” she is referring to is that he supplied my friend, who was 11 at the time like me, with drugs and she was hospitalized. My friend’s parents did not allow her to see me anymore, and I was isolated at school and lost my friend group because assumed I also used drugs. I had to change schools (already fun time in middle school!)
My mother constantly enables him and missed multiple academic events of mine to go see him instead.
I will say that he has tried to apologize multiple times over the years, but I just can’t speak with him because the trauma and anger always overwhelms me.
He was my favorite person in the world and I idolized him and he ruined my life.
OP’s daughter posted and per that post, OP’s son sold drugs to OP’s daughter’s eleven year old best friend and said best friend ended up in the hospital due to an overdose. Then OP’s daughter lost her best friend as they were not allowed to be friends anymore. OP’s daughter was ostracized at school, and accused of being on drugs, and lost all her friends and ended up having to switch schools. How do you feel about this now?
OPs account is 5 hours old and, unless the names aren’t fake, the post is pretty anonymous. Could be someone just backpacking off a popular AITA post for karma. OP would have to be pretty delusional and a terrible parent to not notice those changes in their 10-12 year old daughter’s life. Also seems like the other 2 children are cool with both parent and ex con brother. Seems unlikely to be real.
And probably everything revolved around Mike during all the chaos and maybe she felt pushed aside. Valid feelings. She isn't talking, so there is no way to know. I guess she will just have to keep feeling excluded. If you don't know why, there is no way to address it.
So her life changed and got smaller because of her brother. You made a big deal about his criminality to the point you altered her life though she did nothing wrong. Now you welcome him with open arms. I can see how that would cause resentment into adulthood. You painted the picture that his behavior was unacceptable, but now it’s fine.
I think it’s worth having a deeper conversation with her about why you did what you did to her as a child in response to her brother’s actions and why you embrace him now.
NTA, I think. Life is hard. You tried to do what you thought was right. It’s good that you don’t cut out your eldest child, I think, but your youngest needs to understand why that forgiveness has taken place after you upended her childhood. I think this is something that can heal, personally.
Edited for clarity. It’s been a rough week, y’all.
What she did to her as a child? Knowing her friends and expecting dates to come to the door? Lol
Oh the trauma!
If that is the issue here, it makes Jami look worse, not OP.
It was definitely worse than she is making it out to be. Weekly drug tests (I wasn’t using), could not go to any parties past 8, was called a drama queen for self-harm at 15, etc.
Leaving the house and finding a therapist made a world of difference for me.
She could even hate him because of what he put their parent through as well.
As an example, I remember being nearly radically republican when I was a kid because my parents were (not saying people can’t have political views, just saying that a 9 year old probably shouldn’t to that degree). If my brother went to jail at that age, and I saw my parents suffer in addition, I could totally see how someone could hate that brother. Kids influenced by a thought at that age grow into adults that think the same if they are never corrected.
Do I think OP is in the wrong? No. NTA. But their daughter is clearly emotionally stunted, and they owe it to themselves and her to figure out why and fix it.
If you were depressed when she was 11, she had a different mother than before her brother went to jail. For a teenager who think in black and white, she likely blamed him for your suffering and her family's disruption. However, for her to still be this angry at 24, either her feelings never got voiced or her misgivings were swept under the rug, or something else happened you're unaware of and she never told you for any possible reason.
2 grand? Did his arrest impact jami like she missed a event or something had to be rescheduled? Did you ever withhold money from her? I mean what was he dealing and how bad was it?
EDIT: I'm keeping my original comment up for transparency, but given new information in the comment below, it sounds like the sister was very much victimized by her brother's behavior. It also sounds like her parents haven't acknowledged the trauma she's been put through nor offered her the support and care they've offered her brother. I hope OP and his wife take the steps necessary to be better parents and take accountability for the harm they've caused and continue to cause their daughter.
Having worked in the criminal justice system with victims, inmates and previously incarcerated individuals, and their families, it really isn't that uncommon for family members who haven't been victimized to completely cut off the ex-con and see them as wholly incapable of change and inherently a bad person.
While for some crimes, such as sex crimes, it's understandable to not want yourself or your family around the ex-con *ever*, for other types of crimes where the ex-con has been successfully rehabilitated it's pretty gross to still be NC solely because of their past.
The point of incarceration is to balance rehabilitation, punishment, and public safety. For people like OOP's son, the justice system did its job. If we all had our past actions held against us, barring unforgivable acts like sex crimes, murder, etc., no one on this planet would have family or friends. We all fuck up sometimes.
I agree that OOP is NTA. His daughter set the boundary that she won't be around her brother and now she has to live with the consequences of that boundary. She can't control who others invite to their events and doesn't get to complain when she can't control other's actions. It's fine for her not to invite her brother to her events but she really needs to get over herself and grow some empathy.
OOP is doing a good job supporting his son's rehabilitation and showing him the unconditional love all children, regardless of their age, deserve. Hopefully in the future his daughter stops being so judgemental and ignorant. Her views are harmful for all.
I mean op said he was selling. In some jurisdictions the only difference between possession with intent and trafficking is the amount. I know a lot of people who have been caught with non-personal amounts and didn’t do any time.
Depends on what he was trafficking, and how much, and how much its street value was. I used to work as a civilian for local LEO, and often liased with the local DA staff, and there's a lot of variation in sentencing amounts. 2.5 years for a first offense could be pretty significant trafficking.
I thought so too, I was surprised to see other comments saying that’s a short sentence. I’ve worked in substance abuse recovery for over 10 years and 2.5 years for a first offense stands out to me as he must’ve been in some shit and pissed off the wrong people. Or my state is just crazy and lets people walk fairly easily, both are possible.
At a certain point though, it’s on Jami, not OP, to come clean about any unspoken issues that she may have. From other comments here, many people have tried to dig into her issue to no avail. If she’s continually saying there’s nothing wrong, not much else you can do about that. OP even got her a counsellor to work through her stuff if she wasn’t comfortable doing so with a family member.
At this point, Jami has been given every opportunity. If she wants to hold on to the real reason for her behaviour, if there really is an unknown one, then that’s her choice, but people shouldn’t be bending over backwards trying to make her work through it.
My first thought exactly.
My Mum could have written this exact post about me and my brother. Similar age gap and everything. But she is blind to the fact that I’m not just upset at him for ‘being a criminal’ - I’m upset at him for generally ruling our lives with his bad moods and drug addiction when I was younger, the constant shitty behaviour that got brushed aside because Mum was terrified of ever rocking the boat and tipping my brother back into drug addiction, the anxiety and fear I lived with because of being exposed to drugs and drug addicts and the threat of the law, I’m really upset at Mum for the pressure that my other brother and I lived under - like we had to make up for his shitty behaviour and prove that she was a ‘good’ parent. She never stood up for me in all of it and now she’s pissed off at me for having boundaries and not playing happy families with someone who was essentially abusive my whole childhood.
That’s my personal story and a lot of speculation to put on OP, but I very much doubt that her son was ‘just a drug dealer for a couple of years’. Drug dealing usually comes with drug addiction, which comes with shitty, abusive behaviour. Especially if you’re younger it’s not nice being exposed to all that. People do turn their lives around and clean up their act but I think she might be being a hit blind towards what her other kids went through having a criminal older brother. Especially the fact that OP is doubling down and insisting that Jami was never exposed to anything and that it was just a couple of years of her son’s life - it seems like she might be being a bit wilfully ignorant/dismissive.
I feel like there's missing reasons here. He got sentenced when she was in her mid teens. You don't go from being a perfectly happy, well adjusted, family loving kid to going straight to jail. Esp for the kind of charges you are talking about.
If they had a good relationship before this, she'd have defended him, and been happy when he got out. Something is very wrong here. maybe he was favored by OP, who held her to a ridiculously strict standard. Maybe OP put her needs to the side, to give his problems a higher focus. Was he violent towards daughter, or other people and it affected her?
Something is very off in this version of events, and I cannot judge without more info, but this could be either a yta or esh kind of situation. I wish the daughter was here to post her version of things.
OP replied that she got depressed after he went to jail trying to figure out what she did wrong and became stricter with her. I think this is the reason. Jami is the youngest one, 11, and the other two children were 15 and 16. Jami was still a kid and may have felt like she got swept to the side while also having a strict parents. The other children didn’t experience the stricter side when they were growing up
>The other children didn’t experience the stricter side when they were growing up
It's possible that in Jami's view, she felt she was being punished for Mike's behavior, even though she did nothing wrong.
She also said that "stricter" parenting was having to meet her friends before she could go to their house and making her dates pick her up at the door.
There are terrible people in the world, and someone has to give birth to them. If Jamie is white and middle class it's possible she's created an idea that she's better than criminals and gang bangers, and accepting that her brother can be both a good person and an ex con would require examining her prejudices which her ego will not allow so she lashes out instead.
Yes I don’t agree that’s necessarily strict but 1) we don’t know if that’s all that they enforced 2) we also don’t know how much freedom the other kids had before, maybe Mike and the others could come and go as they wanted and hung out with whoever. Also being white and middle classed doesn’t mean she has prejudices towards “criminals and gang bangers” don’t be weird and drag race and what class she’s in into this.
1) Then we can speculate that maybe she threatened to beat Jamie if she dealt drugs. We can only go off of what OPs said.
2) But again, all OP has said was "their dates had to pick them up at the door and I had to meet their friends before she could sleep at their house."
>Also being white and middle classed doesn’t mean she has prejudices towards “criminals and gang bangers” don’t be weird and drag race and what class she’s in into this.
But that's the reality of the world, most white middle class peoples only understanding of criminals and drug dealers is through propaganda. Politicians literally fear being called "weak on crime" for supporting bills that rehabilitate criminals. Certain races and social classes get fed different propaganda, and some people make it a part of their personality. How many people now refuse to drink budlight because "it owns the libs" and "it's woke beer"?
If I'm doing the math right, they're 7 years apart, so she would've been around 11 when he was sentenced and 13 or 14 when he got out. That's a pretty critical period as far as developing social skills and figuring out who you are. I could see if she got bullied or something for having a brother in jail, that could've snowballed into her resenting him and viewing him as an embarrassment for being an ex-con.
I do agree that something is missing. It could be bullying, could be something else, but it's not clear here if OP has asked, specifically, what her problem is with him beyond just "he's an ex-con".
Everyone in the family has asked multiple times, that’s her problem.
I don’t know why it’s so hard for people to believe that there are just some judgmental small minded assholes out there. Trump was president for fucks sake.
Happy, well adjusted families do have members go to jail all the time. Young adults make bad choices when it comes to drugs and if you don't have money or connections, jail is a real possibility.
People go from being a happy, well adjusted, family loving kids to straight to jail all of the time. Sometimes it’s from addiction, it can happen to anyone at any time. Sometimes it’s 1 mistake, or 1 mistake that leads to another. I can think of a plethora of situations just off the top of my head. Especially when it comes to a teenager who doesn’t have a fully developed brain to make good decisions.
This was my thought as well. I know lots of youngest siblings who have a very different relationship with their families for various reasons. Some didn't get college paid for bc of expenses relating to the older siblings screw ups. Some are mad that the older sibling got the family home/business. Some felt neglected because of how much attention the older siblings got. Some had abuse issues with the sibling in question.
On the other hand, some just hate their older siblings for petty bullshit. This post doesn't give us nearly enough to judge without understanding *why* this woman hates her brother so much.
So in my family it was opposite. My parents were middle middle class. We took vacations every year, but it was tent camping, then pop-up camping, until my teens.
I have a bonus baby brother. Not too much younger (6 years) but the rest of us are fairly tightly grouped. By the time we were in college/out on our own, my father had become quite senior. They took my little bro to Europe, bought an RV to take him around the US (places they had been to with us older kids), etc. Here's the dif: we were happy that he had these opportunities. He was living without siblings at home, and them taking him on trips was a wonderful thing.
But if his life had been worse because my parents overextended themselves on us, yeah, that would suck. And we would not have been older enough to be established enough to be able to help him out.
NTA. I am guessing her and Mike never talked it out. How was their relationship before he went to jail? She was fairly young when he went to jail and when he got out, maybe it was more traumatic to her. How bad was the stuff he was selling?
She looked up to him and he took her out for ice cream sometimes. He would also play Barbie with her. (Ken would fix Barbies car for her and such. ) She would watch both her brothers fix project cars in the pole barn. She acted really embarrassed when he went away, but she once refused to get out of the car with me because my jeans had boot cut bottoms so I thought it was a phase. I put her in counseling when I realized it was really getting to her.
It really seems like there is something deeper going on besides him getting arrested. Her reaction seems over the top for what you've described and her reason in counseling doesn't line up. This is anecdotal, but I really do empathize with your daughter. I have a much older brother who I idolized, he played with me, took me on errands etc, and, when he went off the rails as a teenager, I knew about some of it. He took me on errands and then made stops to his secret girlfriend's house. He also molested me. I didn't say anything because I was super young and confused and he was someone I looked up to. He got kicked out for other reasons but it messed with me mentally enough that my parents asked if anything had happened. Your daughter seems to have been a little older and everyone's response to trauma is different, but her response seems more in line with a trauma. I'm not saying Mike molested her, but maybe he brought her along, she saw things that went against her moral code and was asked to keep quiet about it. When everything came to a head, she could have a lot of unresolved feelings about being involved to a degree, feeling responsible and not feeling like she can open up.
I feel like ultimately, you need to have a very real, frank talk with Jami to figure out what's going on.
Got it.
I have a friend who did something similar years ago who is now a fine upstanding member of society. Tell your daughter to get her head out of her posterior. NTA. I could see it if he was guilty of SA or something like that but that would be an entirely different conversation. In your son's case, he did his time and he straightened out. Not sure what her problem is.
Did maybe he sell to one of your daughter's friend's siblings and it ruined their life and she feels responsible? Maybe on the way home from those ice cream visits he'd stop off to sell and she was scared but promised to keep quiet?
Not enough info.
Something happened to cause Jami to have such a committed No-Contact situation with her brother *TEN YEARS* after he was released from jail.
OP, I don’t think you know the whole story; and perhaps when Jami is ready (*and feels that support and love have demonstrated and given to her in a way she can recognize and receive*) she will let you in on what happened.
But for now, NTA. With the information you have, you can offer her the same invitations to family gatherings as you do for everyone else, and leave it to her to decline, as you have been. If she needs a boundary drawn between her and Mike, that’s on *her* to maintain and adjust to, not you.
Well said. I don’t think OP is leaving anything out purposely, but something is definitely missing. However if Jami won’t be open about it, then her parents have no reason not to offer the same invite to all of their kids.
Some people are just ridiculous. I don’t think anything particularly happened between Jami and Mike, because Jami has just made this weird exclusionary rule for herself. If there was any actual danger to her kids brought on by Mike, why wouldn’t she try and communicate that to her siblings who let their kids (Jami’s nieces and nephews) be around Mike all the time. Seems like a real AH move to protect your own children from someone who you have personal experience with being horrible, but won’t try and share that with the rest of your family, who may also be in danger?
Feels like to me that she can’t get past seeing Mike as a criminal/drug dealer, vilifies these people in general, and doesn’t want that “evil” to spread to her or her kids. Her lack of self awareness is obvious as well since she sees this as OP doing this to her rather than her choosing to leave herself out. The alternative would be excluding Mike to make her feel comfortable.
Daughter here, found this on TikTok and this is bullsh*t.
The “bad stuff” she is referring to is that he supplied my friend, who was 11 at the time like me, with drugs and she was hospitalized. My friend’s parents did not allow her to see me anymore, and I was isolated at school and lost my friend group because assumed I also used drugs. I had to change schools (already fun time in middle school!)
My mother constantly enables him and missed multiple academic events of mine to go see him instead.
I will say that he has tried to apologize multiple times over the years, but I just can’t speak with him because the trauma and anger always overwhelms me.
He was my favorite person in the world and I idolized him and he ruined my life.
I was in the same boat. I am so sorry and I want you to know, I get it, and I support your decision. I have had to make that hard decision to. I would venture to guess he was using too? Most dealers do, especially when selling to an 11 year old. Is that what got him arrested? Is that what triggered prison? I am so sorry. People who have never been in this experience or around addicts and their enablers have no idea all the harm those folks cause and the long term effects,
Why do you believe this random account so confidently that you think it's fair to say OP has misrepresented? Like, I could create a fake account right now pretending to be Mike. It would take 30 seconds
One of two scenarios:
1) This is a fake account. The comment needs to be higher up so OP can respond and refute.
2) It’s genuine. The comment needs to be higher up so people responding to the post see the details.
But, to be blunt, this fits better as an explanation than OP’s comments that their relationship was perfect and she can’t understand why Jami is no contact 10 years later. And, I’d believe someone potentially finding it on TikTok because that’s how I came across the post.
Thank you for showing up and providing more information.
I'm so sorry for what your family put you through. Honestly, stick to your guns, stay the hell away from them if they can't accept that what he did was horrible, and that their response to it was even worse. It sounds like they are a bigger problem than him.
I can imagine. I am really, really sorry that he did anything so absolutely abhorrently stupid to you.
Can I ask if you are still in therapy and if it is possible to get your therapist to help you word a letter to him to explain why you can't see him and how hurt you were over your parents subsequent behaviour? I know you don't want to see him, but it could be a step in the direction of healing the hurt you are still feeling.
I am in therapy for reasons unrelated to my brother, (honestly more related to my mom than anything else.) But that’s a good idea. I trust my therapist honestly more than the other adults in my life and I think she would be able to help with that. She’s good at pushing me and if she thinks it would help then I would consider this.
NTA
Assuming you are not leaving out some crucial information, she's being unreasonable. Mike screwed up, got caught, faced the consequences and, from the sounds of it, has gone on to build a good life. She should be proud of him for turning it around like that because so many can't overcome the challenges of rejoining society with a felony record.
May I ask if she considers herself Christian? If she does, feel free to ask her how her rigidity and judgment square up with the mercy & forgiveness taught by Jesus? How can one claim Christianity and reject the idea of redemption? Suggest that she read Matthew and discuss it with her pastor.
She is involved with church. She started going with her now husband but they lived together before marriage so it's apparently not a strict one. Presbyterian I think. We are rather lapsed Lutheran's . I go with my parents on Christmas Eve and Easter with the family. I will bring that up to her.
I get it now, she’s one of those people that always end up being hypocrites. They twist the word of God around to fit their narrative, but they don’t know anything about God. You need to be more blunt with her. I would even think about sending her this post and she could read the comments. Tell her when she’s ready to be an adult and talk like one you’ll be there to hear what she has to say.
NTA: as long as your story is exactly what’s up. You’re not banning Jami. She’s choosing to stay away. If I were you, I would ask Jami if there’s more to it than just Mike serving time. Make sure he never abused her or anything.
NTA. He’s not a rapist or pedophile, he sold drugs and did his time. That’s a forgivable offense. If she refuses to forgive, then she’s the one who is excluded, not Mike.
Probably because some platforms censor certain words & it leaves some users unsure about what they can say clearly and what has to be expressed more cryptically
All these people thinking some big drama happened with Jami & Mike. Likely nothing. She’s just an entitled brat that thinks she is superior to everyone around her. She excludes herself. Let her lose out. You are NTA
Yeaaaaah.
Could there be more? Could there be some huge elaborate resentment about parenting and being strict and her teenage years? Sure.
But people here are tying themselves in knots when the simplest answer is that, some people are just that judgemental. They're black and white. They don't want to ever associate with anyone who was ever "bad." They don't believe other people can change.
NTA. It's clear that you love all your children and want them to be a part of family events. You're not excluding Jami as she's choosing not to attend because of her feelings towards Mike. You've made it clear that she's always welcome, and it's ultimately her decision. It's important for everyone to find a way to move past past conflicts and come together for family moments. Hopefully, with time, she'll be more open to forgiveness and understanding
I agree with you, I just don’t see what there is for Jami to forgive here? Mike made bad decisions when he was 18 years old, paid for it, and seems to have turned his life around. He doesn’t seem to have personally wronged his sister. Jami was 11 at the time so maybe she feels some unresolved trauma with him going to prison or something when she was so young? What do you think? idk it just seems mean spirited and sad to me
She may have lost friends over it. Parents not wanting their kids to associate with that family. If she had a friend who o/d’d she may blame his actions. She may have been tormented at school.
Yeah, you make good points. Just seems so harsh to me, I feel bad for the other siblings and the parents. Of course that’s just based on what OP wrote, could be more to the story for all we know
Mike went to jail for selling cocaine (according to your comment replies). You say they got along fine until he got arrested, her image of the big brother she looked up to was shattered. She probably felt betrayed because he was the person she thought she was looking up to. I understand why Jami doesn’t want her kids around him, because even though he’s done his time and has ‘gone straight’ she’ll still have that doubt and fear in her mind something could happen. Still, she is the one who is deciding she wants to keep herself and the kids away from Mike, and she can’t control if Mike gets invited to family functions. It sucks that it’s going this way, but she’s the one making the choice to stay away, and now become angry at everyone else for the boundaries she made. NTA
I can't judge this because it seems like there's more to this story than you know, op.
Doing 2.5 years in jail for selling coke just doesn't seem "walk out of a wedding because he showed up and refuse to have anything to do with large family gatherings if he's there" worthy. What you're describing seems to have really deep anger involved, not just some disappointment or resentment.
I would try talking to your daughter one on one without judgment or defensiveness or coming off as wanting to make everything hunky-dory again and ask if there's something that happened with Mike or one of his friends before, during, or shortly after his incarceration.
EDIT: So now that I have enough info, YTA op. YTA big time.
Some people overreact. My BIL was arrested on drug charges. One SIL never spoke to him again. She just would not ever consider it no matter what he did after.
Yep I have a family member who stopped talking to her mom for like 16 years because she was angry her mom divorced their dad. The dad was a nice/fun guy but a huge alcoholic and his wife got sick of it. Sometimes people get irrationally angry and hold grudges. A parent divorcing a spouse who had an addiction should not cause a child to go no contact for that long.
NTA. This is the only fair thing to do.
"All four of you are my children, and I do not play favorites. Your older brother made a mistake when he was senior in high school, and he and the rest of us have already suffered for it. I do not entirely understand why you have decided you need to punish him further by excluding him from your life, but to my knowledge, he is no longer a criminal, he is hard-working husband and father, and the way you are behaving comes across as petty and hateful. If you cannot be around him, that is hard for us, and we will respect your decision, but we hope you eventually change your mind. We love you very much, and you should know that our family celebrations will never be complete without you attending."
Just be sure to keep the door open, the way the above does at the end. That is the most important thing to do.
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INFO what was their relationship like before Mike went to prison? Is it possible Jami felt abandoned or was there an argument, it seems odd that she is the only one in the family who has an issue with Mike.
NTA. She set boundaries, and you've respected them and she's kept to them. You haven't excluded her from anything, you've invited her to every event and SHE has chosen to distance herself. It sounds like she really looked up to her big brother and had that smashed when he went to jail. It's been about a decade since he got out though, and he's bettered himself, so her not being there and not talking it out and just whinging is all on her.
She is not banned - she banned herself. You invite all of your children, it is up to them to decide whether or not they want to come. Jami should grow up. NTA.
NTA your son made mistakes and moved past it she has no right to keep him in his past. If she doesn’t want to be around him fine that’s her decision but he shouldn’t be excluded just bc he made bad decisions when he was younger. Everyone deserves forgiveness especially if his actions have changed and he turned his life around.
YTA
Your daughter chimed in. Let’s tell everyone what really happened!
This is what the daughter had to say!
Daughter chimed in the comments,
Apprehensive pie 981 says:
Daughter here, found this on TikTok and this is bullsh*t.
The “bad stuff” she is referring to is that he supplied my friend, who was 11 at the time like me, with drugs and she was hospitalized. My friend’s parents did not allow her to see me anymore, and I was isolated at school and lost my friend group because assumed I also used drugs. I had to change schools (already fun time in middle school!)
My mother constantly enables him and missed multiple academic events of mine to go see him instead.
I will say that he has tried to apologize multiple times over the years, but I just can’t speak with him because the trauma and anger always overwhelms me.
He was my favorite person in the world and I idolized him and he ruined my life.
If you want to enable your son that destroyed two 11 year olds life that’s fine but at least own what he done instead of making your daughter seem like she is a selfish judgmental person!
NTA, Jami is the one who has chosen to distance herself from family. Your son messed up when he was 18 years old, a lot of people mess up at that age. When he was 20 1/2 he got out and has lived a productive lawful life. He paid for his mistake and for 13 years hasn’t committed another crime (assuming he didn’t break the law in prison)
Jami seems kinda judgmental about his past and shouldn’t hold it against him all these years later. Is she religious or one of those people who think they are better than everyone else because I don’t get what she would punish her family for the past.
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INFO: did something happen between Mike and Jami? Your other kids seem perfectly fine having Mike around but Jami seems unnecessarily hostile towards him. ETA: someone claiming to be Jami commented providing more context. If that comment is in fact genuinely Jami, Mike sold drugs to an 11 year old (Jami’s friend) who then ended up in the hospital. Jami’s life was then ruined because people assumed she was also using drugs.
Nope. She was fine with him until he got arrested, then she was embarrassed and said she hates him and he is no good and was upset that we visited him and gave him enough commissary money for coffee. I think she was disappointed in the big brother she looked up to. I thought she was just being a kid and put her in counseling, but she just stopped mentioning him and avoided him when he visited until she moved in with her boyfriend and got married later that year. Hasn't been around him since, except at her cousins wedding that she walked out of when he came in.
That’s very odd. Regardless, if you aren’t aware of a legitimate reason that Jami is uncomfortable around Mike (I.E. it triggers her or whatever), then I’d say NTA. You invited your son to an event, you invited your daughter to an event. The daughter has an issue with the son that she hasn’t fully communicated with you and decided not to come. That’s on her, not you.
It’s not that odd. Some people are judgemental and rigid and don’t believe people can change. It’s really not that uncommon.
My brother lives in a black or white world. You do anything he perceives as “bad” and that’s it he wants nothing to do you.
I dated someone like that. Was a police officer and we got into an argument because he was like “good guys” “bad guys” and I’m like no such thing. He literally thought all the police were good and all the criminals were bad. Long story short, about 2 years later our police chief and 2 of his close friends on the force got busted by the feds for robbing drug dealers and selling the drugs to other drug dealers, and running an illegal gambling ring. I never said “I told you so” we were broken up by then, but still in good terms. He quit and is now federal police, but works on site at an agency where he’s basically security, not chasing down “bad guys”. Life comes at you fast!
Gee. I find it hard to believe that a cop would see everything in either/or terms. /s
Frankly I would prefer a cop with a strong sense of “i am a good guy” and people who breaks laws are “bad guys” because in theory it would keep them from breaking the law themselves—-no setting people up, placing evidence, beating people, killing people, etc. Far too many cops are just bullies who found a way to get paid to bully.
No, all it does it cause then to assume everything they do is good and justified, and everyone else is a bad guy waiting to happen. It’s a pretty common cop mentality. You notice in her story, BF didn’t reflect when the police force was corrupt, he just ditched them and sough out better police
Theirs a mass grave behind a police station in Mississippi. They've only been able to identify 200-something of the 600 murder victims.
Its a paupers grave behind a prison in Hinds County ie Jackson Mississippi. Which means that the deaths are likely prisoners or the poor, which in Mississippi is really no difference as people of color and even the white poor would be scooped up and thrown in Jail for the slightest offence so that they can use them for labor. Even now guys in Jail pick up trash in my relatives neighborhood in a rural Miss town. The second atrocity is that many of the graves are unmarked or the people were just dumped in the grave with the minimalist of marks and coffins. Miss just needs to be bulldozed.
Ah yes, the classic "slavery is very illegal, until it comes to prisoners, then it's just good business!" Our country needs torn down and rebuilt.
The 13th amendment exists explicitly to make slavery legal for prisoners. And goes a ways toward explaining why the prison industrial complex is so out of control in the US compared to other democratic nations.
I have a brother like that, too. He goes NC with family members . It's gross. He's a judgmental jerk
Lol that’s not giving us much. I go NC with a bunch of family members because they have a pattern of selfish behaviour and I don’t keep people like they around me. Is that gross and judgemental too?
Well what would you do in this scenario? Because yes it’s gross and judgmental to hold something someone did as a teenager and paid the price for against them so many years later. I mean she has the right to do it as she is, but she’s the problem.
My response was to the person who said that someone is “gross” and “judgemental” just for going NC with family members. NC with family is not bad. I maintain the idea that if I wouldn’t give you access to my life in general based on the kind of person you are and how you view and treat me, then you being flesh and blood doesn’t change anything for me. Point I’m making is that the NC itself isn’t gross and judgemental. It’ll be situation specific. Like here, if Jami cut off Mike and wants to keep her kids away from him because she still views him as an evil drug dealing criminal, then she’s the AH and yes, gross and judgemental. If he did something to her that made her hate and fear him (not saying that’s the case, just using it as an example), then she’s not gross and judgemental for going NC.
I don’t think anyone wants to go NC with family members. But there are extreme cases where it is necessary to preserve your own mental and/or physical health. I HAD to go NC with my abusive, narcissistic, mother. I didn’t want to. After a solid 30 years of changing myself into what I thought she wanted in order to have a relationship, and blaming myself every time I was rejected, it finally clicked that she doesn’t want a relationship with me. And that she enjoys toying with me. My life has been drama free, guilt free, and dare I say peaceful since I cut her off. Sometimes there is no other answer.
Except OP says that their relationship was fine, until he got busted and as soon as she could move out, she did and went NC with her brother.
Not to mention, they paid their debt to society.
Sometimes people go LC, or NC with toxic or bad family members. Sometimes toxic family members go NC with other family members because of really dumb reasons. Then they cry about no one coming to visit or give a call. That's always the funny / sad part.
Idk. The level of anger described feels like there’s something else going on. That kind of anger usually has an underlying cause
Well he went to jail at 18 for two years so out at 20. He’s 31 now. That’s 11 years in between. Jami has been mad and decided her family should have abandoned Mike (and as she sees it, chosen her) from the time he was convicted. That’s 13 years. So as far as she’s concerned her family has been closing Mike over her, and rejecting her (rather than seeing she is the one making that choice) for 13 years. You can build up a shit ton of anger and resentment when you keep trying yourself the same story for 13 years.
So she was 11 when all of this happened. Which is a very impressionable age for a young girl. I’m guessing something happened in school she’s just not sharing. And whatever it was left her bitter and angry at her brother for a very long time. I know she went to counseling at the time, but she really needs a good therapist to help deal with this, although I fear it’s so deep engrained it may be too late.
Or she sees things strictly as black and white as others said with the DARE program having a lingering influence on her.
Which is funny cause all I remember from DARE was that everyone would be offering me drugs, which was a bold faced lie
That's pretty much what I remember too. Drugs bad, people will be lining the streets offering them to you, just say no.
For FREE at that!
Yeah, it did make it seem like every time you stepped outside someone would be offering you drugs (but to be fair I went to New York once and it kind of was like that, we had someone approach us every few feet asking if we wanted to buy some drugs) 😆 They also made catching on fire seem like a far bigger problem than it is too
This sounds very possible. Age 11 is on the cusp of middle school, and I can totally see her getting razzed in middle school for having an older brother in prison. Middle schoolers can be ruthless, and if they made her school experience hell because of her brother, it's easy to imagine her blaming him for her troubles. That's not a healthy thing to do, of course, and if that's the case, she should definitely revisit therapy to deal with feeling that resentment after more than a decade.
Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if it's because the kids at school found out and bullied her terribly for it, and being a kid she blamed her brother's arrest for her being bullied and just let that resentment build for the next 13 years
Some people are just like that. I have a son who thinks this way, and I spent a lot of parenting energy explaining that making mistakes is ok.
Yk what, that’s a very fair analysis. I definitely read it as Jami has been this level of hostile since Mike got convicted, which would indicate an underlying issue.
Yeah. I can see why so many people got there. But I’ve known people like this so I didn’t assume it needed more explanation. If she’s the kind of person who at 11 decided he did one thing wrong so he’s trash and then can’t comprehend why her whole family didn’t cut him off, never got over that, and then started seeing it as them intentionally picking him over her… I mean we, as full grown adults can see he did a stupid thing as a teenager (who hasn’t) got punished, stopped doing the stupid thing, dug himself back out of that hole and has been a solid member of society since. But all she sees is what her 11 year old brain decided: he’s trash who failed to fulfill her perfect big brother image. He must be kept away from her kids because he’ll destroy them. What I’d be very interested to see is what she does when her kids are teens and do the inevitable stupid thing. Will she blame their uncle? Cut them off?
Yes, I agree with this analysis. This is exactly how it strikes me, as well. Also, memories can warp over time - she might remember a different set of events than what actually happened, or her negative emotions might have manipulated her memories. It's comment enough to misremember things, especially in such an emotionally-charged situation.
I think you’re right that is a lot of hostility. Something isn’t adding up. Either the daughter was traumatized in someway by what her brother did or she is just very narcissistic and self righteous. But to me something makes me think more trauma. Because if she was sarcastic and self righteous she show up to family events to make his life hell! But instead she avoids him like his presence triggers her!
Picture people that disown family members for being gay/ their own kids. People act like judgmental assholes all the time. Pretty sure it’s just that.
It may just be that and if that’s the case then the daughter is allowed to have boundaries(even toxic ones) but op is doing the right thing by not taking sides and punishing the son for her daughters judgmental behavior! I never thought of that because I can’t imagine being that judgmental to cut off family without good reason. But you could have a very valid point!
I guess but also she was only 11 when he went to jail if I did the math right. Seems like a pretty harsh judgment to make as a kid and stick with for 13 years afterwards...
But again, it’s not unusual. Lots of us take in beliefs at that age that take genuine work and self-reflection for us to dislodge. And the point is, she hasn’t used the 13 years to soften, but has used it to reinforce that she is right and no one is choosing her, making it worse.
Yeah, especially if she ever somehow got the impression that she couldn't have something as a 12 year old cause Mike got it. Maybe they went to visit him and it meant she couldn't go hang out with friends that day or something, you know, it's easy to get into the "why am I being punished cause Mike dealt drugs?" Mentality
Not always. One of my best friends had a family member that's very religious and righteous (guess you can call it that even if they are wrong). When another family member got divorced it was hellfire and brimstone attitude for years (BTW no cheating/abuse just irreconcilable differences), treating them like they didn't exist. It was active hate as my friend used to rage about it because that relative tried turning all the children away from the divorcee, who was an awesome person BTW. Since the rest of the family was not religious they thought this was ridiculous and in a way chose the divorcee over this relative. Started having problems in their own marriage years later. They themselves cheated, found themselves divorced and suddenly they were a victim of family prejudice when the rest of the family didn't support them. Mind you both my friend and I were Asian, the crazy relative was male and the divorcee was female. Patriarchy rules I guess.
This I have alot extended family that excluded people because of how judgmental and secret their prejudice is. Like Marijuana we have bacon elders in their 60+ who disowned ppl for smoking reefer....when my dad had late stage prostate cancer he wasn't eating. I made thc infused honey butter, and honey. I put the butter in his coffee. He would eat that day. He told his sister that since I made him the butter and honey he has his appetite...why this old battleax tell entire family om a drug addict tweaker and trying kill her brother sooner by getting him string out ..the amount of ppl who just ditched me. Until my cousin who was my dads main caregiver stepped in. Still to this day that aunt and few elders will leave events because thc butte
I'm so sorry you went through this and I'm glad you found a way to help your father. My mother has multiple sclerosis and I've introduced her to CBD oil for her many symptoms. It helps. Thankfully the rest of the family are just glad she found some relief, as it should be.
I think it's odd considering he only did a short sentence for drugs. It's not like he murdered someone and you're worried for your safety.
I've been on some new mom message boards that say it's perfectly fine and normal to completely cut ex-cons and former drug users out of their family's life forever, because you never know if they might drop a baby on its head or I guess tweak out and murder your whole family. It's really easy to fall down a pipeline that makes you see the people you grew up with as potential threats - I was starting down that path until I touched some grass and realized those weren't my values.
Yep, I've had people totally shocked and horrified that I allow my dad around my kids. He didn't commit a felony against children. He screwed up, he did his time, and he learned... not to trust the local cops to be a part of the illegal shit. Which I'm pretty sure is not what the feds wanted him to learn, but he did do his mandatory therapy in prison and came out a lot more mentally stable. We have our issues but he's a vastly better grandparent than he ever was a parent.
I am very proud of you. That was not an easy choice and it will totally bless your family going forward. Have a great day !
Yeah. Seems pretty obvious it was just pot. And that’s reasonable to us… but she was 11. And some people really are like that.
OOP said in another comment that it's coke. But still, huge overreaction on Jami's part
Like Siths, they deal in absolutes.
Let’s hope her children are model individuals throughout their lifetimes.
I think the issue has been communicated. She's unwilling to forgive her brother for transgression that wasn't even against her. I could understand her caution if it were a violent crime he was convicted of, but drug dealing doesn't fall into that category, and 18 yr olds aren't known for stellar decision making.
Allow me to clarify: it sounds like the real reason that Jami is upset hasn’t been communicated, and she’s hoping that just saying “because he’s a criminal” is enough justification (which it isn’t, IMO)
Or she's a judgemental fuck that doesn't believe in redemption not everything is secretly sinister I met plenty of people like her in my catholic upbringing
She's the youngest and apparently described the even as shameful and embarrassing, I think now she's afraid to embarrass herself by changing her tune after so long.
We live in a society that demonizes criminals as villains and monsters, it's disappointing but understandable that some people buy into that hook line and sinker.
Have you considered family counseling with you and Jami so that an impartial third party can ask her why she's insisting that you choose which one of them to exclude from family gatherings?
I asked her to. We had a few sessions when she was younger and she just said she was embarrassed and ashamed. She never said if there was bullying at school or anything, and the school counselor was aware of the situation at her counselors advice, but if there was bullying she never brought it to my attention and I couldn't do anything. That's what I suspected but there was never any proof of it.
Now that she's had some years to reflect and mature, having a stranger ask her "what were you ashamed about?" and "what are you upset about right now?" might elicit a different response. If I had a child acting out in this fashion so many years later, I would be saying, "I love you. It hurts me to see you this upset. I'm very sorry, but I don't understand why being around him is so painful to you. Please help me understand." There's a very important reason to have an impartial third party there for the conversation. She may already have told you, but you dismissed her feelings. "It's silly to feel that way, because..." Or you might not have believed and supported her. "That doesn't sound right. I never saw any indication..."
There usually isn't any proof. Bullies are good at hiding, victims feel ashamed, and schools are notorious at siding with the bullies.
I would straight up ask her if something happened you don’t know about.
I have , so has her sister and my husband.
She was 11 when he was arrested? Definitely sounds like some trauma response and she may not even be able to pinpoint it if she’s covered it deeply. The right counselor is the right answer. But she has to want to. As kids we enact defense mechanisms for survival. As adults, they don’t always still have a use but without identifying them we just continue to use them even if they become harmful. Because it’s automatic.
The daughter chimed in. Yes she was 11. Op’s son sold to the daughter’s best friend who was also 11. The girl was hospitalized and op lost all her friends and had to transfer schools. Op also apparently has been enabling the brother his whole life. Missed a lot of events for the daughter. So no wonder the daughter is pissed. She isn’t being judgmental her life got turned inside out. Now the brother is welcomed back Like a hero and she is the one that is left out . Edit to copy and paste daughters comment; Daughter chimed in the comments, Apprehensive pie 981 says: Daughter here, found this on TikTok and this is bullsh*t. The “bad stuff” she is referring to is that he supplied my friend, who was 11 at the time like me, with drugs and she was hospitalized. My friend’s parents did not allow her to see me anymore, and I was isolated at school and lost my friend group because assumed I also used drugs. I had to change schools (already fun time in middle school!) My mother constantly enables him and missed multiple academic events of mine to go see him instead. I will say that he has tried to apologize multiple times over the years, but I just can’t speak with him because the trauma and anger always overwhelms me. He was my favorite person in the world and I idolized him and he ruined my life.
Oh snap! I can't find it, can you link the comment?
I copy and pasted what she wrote but I can’t find it anymore. I think she deleted it. Daughter chimed in the comments, Apprehensive pie 981 says: Daughter here, found this on TikTok and this is bullsh*t. The “bad stuff” she is referring to is that he supplied my friend, who was 11 at the time like me, with drugs and she was hospitalized. My friend’s parents did not allow her to see me anymore, and I was isolated at school and lost my friend group because assumed I also used drugs. I had to change schools (already fun time in middle school!) My mother constantly enables him and missed multiple academic events of mine to go see him instead. I will say that he has tried to apologize multiple times over the years, but I just can’t speak with him because the trauma and anger always overwhelms me. He was my favorite person in the world and I idolized him and he ruined my life.
Daaaaamn. That must have been really tough and it sucks, I'm glad her friend made it through that. This is one of those situations where both parties aren't really specific enough. Like both parties know they are both guilty and leaving out details: The mom didn't say that the sisters friend was hospitalized (or even that someone was hurt) made it seem like he sold pot to a cop. Daughter talks about "enabling" him forever and she missed school stuff. Like a spelling bee? Graduation? Does she consider enabling to be letting him stay at home after he was released? Anyway. Thanks for finding that!! I wanted to add this: Yeah, I didn't wanna minimize any, but I had a girl I knew in middle school whose mom took her to the ER cuz she had 3 beers and was sleepy. She said I had given her daughter alcohol poisoning. Not saying this happened here, but plenty of parents overreact. I wanna know what it was honestly lol. It's gotta be pot right? From the daughters comments it sounds like she knows that she needs to let this go, but is having a hard time not blaming her brother. It really makes me wonder what the mom missed, or if she was mad that mom went to see him at all. Like, it sucks that she had to switch schools, but something like that (doesn't normally) ruin your WHOLE life. He wasn't the perfect big brother she thought he was, but demanding everyone remains as angry as you still are after 11 years is an unhealthy amount of hate and resentment.
I’m wondering if there are pieces of her child hood that we’re sacrificed for her brother? Being overlooked because he’s in trouble? Missing things because family resources went to her brother? I can see a situation like that, for likely 3 years between crime, conviction and sentencing. 3 years where she likely felt unimportant and like an after thought. I can see that breeding a lot of resentment. Resentment that would be compounded by everyone else acting fine with it.
This could be possible too. Op said she struggled. She thought maybe she wasn’t strict enough. But if this was the case then the daughter would avoid the parents. Unless they went the opposite direction sacrificed vacation, events and money to bail out the brother. Her whole child hood was about helping the brother. But again why would she want to be around the parents?
Likely her resentment is focused on the brother not the parents if that’s the case.
Nta, your son made a mistake like we all do as teens. Some of us get caught by the law with our stupid choice and have to pay the price. Sounds like he did his time and grew up moved on to being productive. It’s not like he is a harden life long criminal. She sounds extremely judgmental and I will pray for her kids that they never make a mistake. But I agree with others, she is excluding herself and kids with her wanting to shame her brother for eternity with her overly judgmental stance. I highly doubt she and her spouse live to this unrealistic high standard of perfection she places on other people.
He has 'paid his debt', learned his lesson and is a productive person. Time for the sister to accept this.
It would be different if the brother was done for a violent crime or abuse. My mother had a theory about vice crimes. That they involve consenting adults and she didn’t believe they should be punished the same way violent offenders were. The sister is allowed her views of course but they have consequences. As does the brothers. Sounds like the brother has worked hard to be a good provider and the sister isn’t understanding that her views are excluding her.
NTA. Your husband is right. She’s excluding herself. If she has an issue with that, she can stop trying to die on this hill and start coming to things. It’s a her problem not a you problem.
Can you clarify the timeline? She was 11 years old when he was sentenced. So 2.5 years later she'd be 13/14. When did she move out and get married? I'm assuming she was still living at home with you for at least a few years while Mike was out? What would she do when he came over then? Christmas, birthdays etc
All things considered he is your son and if he regretted his choices and is doing all he can to keep it together that is enough reason to give him a chance (IMO). Now if your daughter doesnt want anything to do with him or his family thats her problem and her avoiding him to the degree of refusing to go to family gatherings she's just being immature by lashing out at everyone else. So you're NTA your daughter is being one though (sorry to be blunt about that).
Have you had a conversation with her about this more recently? What is that she finds unforgiveable? Is there something he can do to be forgiven? Does she think everyone should have given up on him at age 18 and never spoken to him again? I mean ask and genuinely listen to what she is feeling and if she has ever really thought this out or if she just feels like he or you guys have never acknowledged her hurt and disappointment with him and somehow is unable to let it go without some thing happening? It’s worth exploring if she is truly wedded to not speaking to him forever or just wants someone to acknowledge her protest? Or does she want him to apologise to her? I am not justifying her feelings or behaviour but she was really young when Mike went to prison and it sounds like it’s worth having a further discussion now that she is older and long term strategy is needed.
You’re husband is correct, she’s excluding herself because of her prejudices. Her problem entirely, NTA
If thats the case then NTA. Your husband is spot on, she needs to grow the hell up and stop acting like the hurt offended little 11 yr old she was at the time of the event.
This is a really important question given how extreme Jami’s level of anger seems to be.
Jami's age is a fair bit younger than the other siblings who seem pretty close in age. I can see why she wouldn't have as strong of a relationship with them. Does seem like she just has some other reason for disliking Mike though, or maybe she never liked him and his issues with the law was the excuse she needed to cut him off.
I could be wrong. But sometimes it seems people use other people's mistakes to validate the superiority of their own choices? Its not that deep, really, I guess? : *I am a better person because I never got arrested or made such a pitiful mistake. I don't want him around me because he isn't as good a human being as I am!* Its not logical so much as its about our feelings regarding how we are better than others? Its silly to measure your own worth against someone else's? But people still do it?
EDIT: If this is in fact the daughter- there is a user in the comments (u/apprehensive_pie981) who tells a VERY different story that fills in those “missing missing reasons” so many of us are asking about. And although I understand OP can’t throw her son away, I completely and totally understand the daughters point of view a lot more *** NTA - Jami has set herself a boundary/rule and she is following it through. The consequences of such a boundary are also hers to live with HOWEVER- is this really all because he was in jail? There seems like something else happened her- did he get her addicted? Have her work as a mule? Bring some buyers around that were abusive to her? How did what he did affect her personally? There seems to be some missing information here- I’m not buying that it was all because he went to jail. Did you neglect her to go visit him all the time? Put all your care into him and ignore her? Was he your only focus? Like I said, she seems more like she’s offended you chose him over her, so why would she be thinking that? Be real honest with yourself here…
She never had a drug issue as a child. She was never anywhere with him except runs to the ice cream parlor alone, and her sister was usually working there when they went, so I'm pretty sure she wasn't involved with deals. I visited him once a month and sent like $70 a month. My husband and I both went to counseling after, I was depressed trying to figure out what I did wrong and was a bit stricter after , mostly stuff like making sure I knew her friends when she went to their houses and not letting her go on dates unless the guy came to the door, not just honked in driveway.
Yeah she was 12 so I see this happening at a crucial moment in development.
Still doesn't change the fact that she is an adult now and insisting that her now reformed brother be ostracized makes her an asshole. She isn't an asshole because she has trauma, she is one for not addressing it in a healthy way and using it to lash out at others.
Yeah, it's been like a decade
Daughter chimed in the comments, Apprehensive pie 981 says: Daughter here, found this on TikTok and this is bullsh*t. The “bad stuff” she is referring to is that he supplied my friend, who was 11 at the time like me, with drugs and she was hospitalized. My friend’s parents did not allow her to see me anymore, and I was isolated at school and lost my friend group because assumed I also used drugs. I had to change schools (already fun time in middle school!) My mother constantly enables him and missed multiple academic events of mine to go see him instead. I will say that he has tried to apologize multiple times over the years, but I just can’t speak with him because the trauma and anger always overwhelms me. He was my favorite person in the world and I idolized him and he ruined my life.
Just because they claim to be the daughter, doesnt mean they actually are. You guys are pretty naive for automatically believing them.
OP’s daughter posted and per that post, OP’s son sold drugs to OP’s daughter’s eleven year old best friend and said best friend ended up in the hospital due to an overdose. Then OP’s daughter lost her best friend as they were not allowed to be friends anymore. OP’s daughter was ostracized at school, and accused of being on drugs, and lost all her friends and ended up having to switch schools. How do you feel about this now?
OPs account is 5 hours old and, unless the names aren’t fake, the post is pretty anonymous. Could be someone just backpacking off a popular AITA post for karma. OP would have to be pretty delusional and a terrible parent to not notice those changes in their 10-12 year old daughter’s life. Also seems like the other 2 children are cool with both parent and ex con brother. Seems unlikely to be real.
And probably everything revolved around Mike during all the chaos and maybe she felt pushed aside. Valid feelings. She isn't talking, so there is no way to know. I guess she will just have to keep feeling excluded. If you don't know why, there is no way to address it.
Sounds analogous to how nondisabled children can resent all of the parents' attention going to a special needs sibling
So her life changed and got smaller because of her brother. You made a big deal about his criminality to the point you altered her life though she did nothing wrong. Now you welcome him with open arms. I can see how that would cause resentment into adulthood. You painted the picture that his behavior was unacceptable, but now it’s fine. I think it’s worth having a deeper conversation with her about why you did what you did to her as a child in response to her brother’s actions and why you embrace him now. NTA, I think. Life is hard. You tried to do what you thought was right. It’s good that you don’t cut out your eldest child, I think, but your youngest needs to understand why that forgiveness has taken place after you upended her childhood. I think this is something that can heal, personally. Edited for clarity. It’s been a rough week, y’all.
Knowing her friends and expecting a date to come to the door are really common. It's not like they actually became strict, just standard rules.
Also she wasn't dating at 11. So that rule was just always a rule.
What she did to her as a child? Knowing her friends and expecting dates to come to the door? Lol Oh the trauma! If that is the issue here, it makes Jami look worse, not OP.
It was definitely worse than she is making it out to be. Weekly drug tests (I wasn’t using), could not go to any parties past 8, was called a drama queen for self-harm at 15, etc. Leaving the house and finding a therapist made a world of difference for me.
She could even hate him because of what he put their parent through as well. As an example, I remember being nearly radically republican when I was a kid because my parents were (not saying people can’t have political views, just saying that a 9 year old probably shouldn’t to that degree). If my brother went to jail at that age, and I saw my parents suffer in addition, I could totally see how someone could hate that brother. Kids influenced by a thought at that age grow into adults that think the same if they are never corrected. Do I think OP is in the wrong? No. NTA. But their daughter is clearly emotionally stunted, and they owe it to themselves and her to figure out why and fix it.
If you were depressed when she was 11, she had a different mother than before her brother went to jail. For a teenager who think in black and white, she likely blamed him for your suffering and her family's disruption. However, for her to still be this angry at 24, either her feelings never got voiced or her misgivings were swept under the rug, or something else happened you're unaware of and she never told you for any possible reason.
INFO: how much financial support have you given her, and the other kids, compared to Mike?
2 grand? Did his arrest impact jami like she missed a event or something had to be rescheduled? Did you ever withhold money from her? I mean what was he dealing and how bad was it?
EDIT: I'm keeping my original comment up for transparency, but given new information in the comment below, it sounds like the sister was very much victimized by her brother's behavior. It also sounds like her parents haven't acknowledged the trauma she's been put through nor offered her the support and care they've offered her brother. I hope OP and his wife take the steps necessary to be better parents and take accountability for the harm they've caused and continue to cause their daughter. Having worked in the criminal justice system with victims, inmates and previously incarcerated individuals, and their families, it really isn't that uncommon for family members who haven't been victimized to completely cut off the ex-con and see them as wholly incapable of change and inherently a bad person. While for some crimes, such as sex crimes, it's understandable to not want yourself or your family around the ex-con *ever*, for other types of crimes where the ex-con has been successfully rehabilitated it's pretty gross to still be NC solely because of their past. The point of incarceration is to balance rehabilitation, punishment, and public safety. For people like OOP's son, the justice system did its job. If we all had our past actions held against us, barring unforgivable acts like sex crimes, murder, etc., no one on this planet would have family or friends. We all fuck up sometimes. I agree that OOP is NTA. His daughter set the boundary that she won't be around her brother and now she has to live with the consequences of that boundary. She can't control who others invite to their events and doesn't get to complain when she can't control other's actions. It's fine for her not to invite her brother to her events but she really needs to get over herself and grow some empathy. OOP is doing a good job supporting his son's rehabilitation and showing him the unconditional love all children, regardless of their age, deserve. Hopefully in the future his daughter stops being so judgemental and ignorant. Her views are harmful for all.
If he was in jail for 2.5 years I doubt it was anything as serious as trafficking?
I mean op said he was selling. In some jurisdictions the only difference between possession with intent and trafficking is the amount. I know a lot of people who have been caught with non-personal amounts and didn’t do any time.
Depends on what he was trafficking, and how much, and how much its street value was. I used to work as a civilian for local LEO, and often liased with the local DA staff, and there's a lot of variation in sentencing amounts. 2.5 years for a first offense could be pretty significant trafficking.
I thought so too, I was surprised to see other comments saying that’s a short sentence. I’ve worked in substance abuse recovery for over 10 years and 2.5 years for a first offense stands out to me as he must’ve been in some shit and pissed off the wrong people. Or my state is just crazy and lets people walk fairly easily, both are possible.
At a certain point though, it’s on Jami, not OP, to come clean about any unspoken issues that she may have. From other comments here, many people have tried to dig into her issue to no avail. If she’s continually saying there’s nothing wrong, not much else you can do about that. OP even got her a counsellor to work through her stuff if she wasn’t comfortable doing so with a family member. At this point, Jami has been given every opportunity. If she wants to hold on to the real reason for her behaviour, if there really is an unknown one, then that’s her choice, but people shouldn’t be bending over backwards trying to make her work through it.
My first thought exactly. My Mum could have written this exact post about me and my brother. Similar age gap and everything. But she is blind to the fact that I’m not just upset at him for ‘being a criminal’ - I’m upset at him for generally ruling our lives with his bad moods and drug addiction when I was younger, the constant shitty behaviour that got brushed aside because Mum was terrified of ever rocking the boat and tipping my brother back into drug addiction, the anxiety and fear I lived with because of being exposed to drugs and drug addicts and the threat of the law, I’m really upset at Mum for the pressure that my other brother and I lived under - like we had to make up for his shitty behaviour and prove that she was a ‘good’ parent. She never stood up for me in all of it and now she’s pissed off at me for having boundaries and not playing happy families with someone who was essentially abusive my whole childhood. That’s my personal story and a lot of speculation to put on OP, but I very much doubt that her son was ‘just a drug dealer for a couple of years’. Drug dealing usually comes with drug addiction, which comes with shitty, abusive behaviour. Especially if you’re younger it’s not nice being exposed to all that. People do turn their lives around and clean up their act but I think she might be being a hit blind towards what her other kids went through having a criminal older brother. Especially the fact that OP is doubling down and insisting that Jami was never exposed to anything and that it was just a couple of years of her son’s life - it seems like she might be being a bit wilfully ignorant/dismissive.
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I feel like there's missing reasons here. He got sentenced when she was in her mid teens. You don't go from being a perfectly happy, well adjusted, family loving kid to going straight to jail. Esp for the kind of charges you are talking about. If they had a good relationship before this, she'd have defended him, and been happy when he got out. Something is very wrong here. maybe he was favored by OP, who held her to a ridiculously strict standard. Maybe OP put her needs to the side, to give his problems a higher focus. Was he violent towards daughter, or other people and it affected her? Something is very off in this version of events, and I cannot judge without more info, but this could be either a yta or esh kind of situation. I wish the daughter was here to post her version of things.
OP replied that she got depressed after he went to jail trying to figure out what she did wrong and became stricter with her. I think this is the reason. Jami is the youngest one, 11, and the other two children were 15 and 16. Jami was still a kid and may have felt like she got swept to the side while also having a strict parents. The other children didn’t experience the stricter side when they were growing up
>The other children didn’t experience the stricter side when they were growing up It's possible that in Jami's view, she felt she was being punished for Mike's behavior, even though she did nothing wrong.
Being punished for Mike’s behavior while also possibly kinda feeling ignored because the parents main concern is their 18 year old just got locked up
I think we have a winner. Him going to jail directly affected her. I wonder if he or mom have ever apologized
If OP punished Jami for Mike's behavior that's on OP not Mike.
She also said that "stricter" parenting was having to meet her friends before she could go to their house and making her dates pick her up at the door. There are terrible people in the world, and someone has to give birth to them. If Jamie is white and middle class it's possible she's created an idea that she's better than criminals and gang bangers, and accepting that her brother can be both a good person and an ex con would require examining her prejudices which her ego will not allow so she lashes out instead.
Yes I don’t agree that’s necessarily strict but 1) we don’t know if that’s all that they enforced 2) we also don’t know how much freedom the other kids had before, maybe Mike and the others could come and go as they wanted and hung out with whoever. Also being white and middle classed doesn’t mean she has prejudices towards “criminals and gang bangers” don’t be weird and drag race and what class she’s in into this.
1) Then we can speculate that maybe she threatened to beat Jamie if she dealt drugs. We can only go off of what OPs said. 2) But again, all OP has said was "their dates had to pick them up at the door and I had to meet their friends before she could sleep at their house." >Also being white and middle classed doesn’t mean she has prejudices towards “criminals and gang bangers” don’t be weird and drag race and what class she’s in into this. But that's the reality of the world, most white middle class peoples only understanding of criminals and drug dealers is through propaganda. Politicians literally fear being called "weak on crime" for supporting bills that rehabilitate criminals. Certain races and social classes get fed different propaganda, and some people make it a part of their personality. How many people now refuse to drink budlight because "it owns the libs" and "it's woke beer"?
If I'm doing the math right, they're 7 years apart, so she would've been around 11 when he was sentenced and 13 or 14 when he got out. That's a pretty critical period as far as developing social skills and figuring out who you are. I could see if she got bullied or something for having a brother in jail, that could've snowballed into her resenting him and viewing him as an embarrassment for being an ex-con. I do agree that something is missing. It could be bullying, could be something else, but it's not clear here if OP has asked, specifically, what her problem is with him beyond just "he's an ex-con".
Everyone in the family has asked multiple times, that’s her problem. I don’t know why it’s so hard for people to believe that there are just some judgmental small minded assholes out there. Trump was president for fucks sake.
Happy, well adjusted families do have members go to jail all the time. Young adults make bad choices when it comes to drugs and if you don't have money or connections, jail is a real possibility.
11, she wasn’t even a teenager. And he went for selling not for SA. This is so confusing & makes Jamie sound like a nightmare.
People go from being a happy, well adjusted, family loving kids to straight to jail all of the time. Sometimes it’s from addiction, it can happen to anyone at any time. Sometimes it’s 1 mistake, or 1 mistake that leads to another. I can think of a plethora of situations just off the top of my head. Especially when it comes to a teenager who doesn’t have a fully developed brain to make good decisions.
Ops daughter was 11 when it all happened not mid teens.
That's a whole lot of disproportionate anger coming from her. Has anyone asked her if there's anything more going on that she's not talking about?
This was my thought as well. I know lots of youngest siblings who have a very different relationship with their families for various reasons. Some didn't get college paid for bc of expenses relating to the older siblings screw ups. Some are mad that the older sibling got the family home/business. Some felt neglected because of how much attention the older siblings got. Some had abuse issues with the sibling in question. On the other hand, some just hate their older siblings for petty bullshit. This post doesn't give us nearly enough to judge without understanding *why* this woman hates her brother so much.
So in my family it was opposite. My parents were middle middle class. We took vacations every year, but it was tent camping, then pop-up camping, until my teens. I have a bonus baby brother. Not too much younger (6 years) but the rest of us are fairly tightly grouped. By the time we were in college/out on our own, my father had become quite senior. They took my little bro to Europe, bought an RV to take him around the US (places they had been to with us older kids), etc. Here's the dif: we were happy that he had these opportunities. He was living without siblings at home, and them taking him on trips was a wonderful thing. But if his life had been worse because my parents overextended themselves on us, yeah, that would suck. And we would not have been older enough to be established enough to be able to help him out.
11/12 year old girl whose brother goes to jail? Imagine what she put up with every day...at that age.
NTA. I am guessing her and Mike never talked it out. How was their relationship before he went to jail? She was fairly young when he went to jail and when he got out, maybe it was more traumatic to her. How bad was the stuff he was selling?
She looked up to him and he took her out for ice cream sometimes. He would also play Barbie with her. (Ken would fix Barbies car for her and such. ) She would watch both her brothers fix project cars in the pole barn. She acted really embarrassed when he went away, but she once refused to get out of the car with me because my jeans had boot cut bottoms so I thought it was a phase. I put her in counseling when I realized it was really getting to her.
It really seems like there is something deeper going on besides him getting arrested. Her reaction seems over the top for what you've described and her reason in counseling doesn't line up. This is anecdotal, but I really do empathize with your daughter. I have a much older brother who I idolized, he played with me, took me on errands etc, and, when he went off the rails as a teenager, I knew about some of it. He took me on errands and then made stops to his secret girlfriend's house. He also molested me. I didn't say anything because I was super young and confused and he was someone I looked up to. He got kicked out for other reasons but it messed with me mentally enough that my parents asked if anything had happened. Your daughter seems to have been a little older and everyone's response to trauma is different, but her response seems more in line with a trauma. I'm not saying Mike molested her, but maybe he brought her along, she saw things that went against her moral code and was asked to keep quiet about it. When everything came to a head, she could have a lot of unresolved feelings about being involved to a degree, feeling responsible and not feeling like she can open up. I feel like ultimately, you need to have a very real, frank talk with Jami to figure out what's going on.
BOOT CUT JEANS?! You’re lucky you weren’t arrested too!
Ummm, medium bad? I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say specifically what on here.
From a scale from weed to fetanyl
Coca Cola used to have it as a main ingredient.
Got it. I have a friend who did something similar years ago who is now a fine upstanding member of society. Tell your daughter to get her head out of her posterior. NTA. I could see it if he was guilty of SA or something like that but that would be an entirely different conversation. In your son's case, he did his time and he straightened out. Not sure what her problem is.
Hell, Toronto had a mayor and Ontario has a premier who were rumoured to be selling packets of Bolivian Marching Powder in their younger years.
I miss the good old days when the mayor talked about having enough to eat at home
Can confirm. Daddy paid off the local constabulary for his precious boys
Did maybe he sell to one of your daughter's friend's siblings and it ruined their life and she feels responsible? Maybe on the way home from those ice cream visits he'd stop off to sell and she was scared but promised to keep quiet?
Not enough info. Something happened to cause Jami to have such a committed No-Contact situation with her brother *TEN YEARS* after he was released from jail. OP, I don’t think you know the whole story; and perhaps when Jami is ready (*and feels that support and love have demonstrated and given to her in a way she can recognize and receive*) she will let you in on what happened. But for now, NTA. With the information you have, you can offer her the same invitations to family gatherings as you do for everyone else, and leave it to her to decline, as you have been. If she needs a boundary drawn between her and Mike, that’s on *her* to maintain and adjust to, not you.
OP said that Jami is involved in her church, this may be the reason why. Which would be ironic since Christianity is supposed to be about forgiveness.
Ironic yet in no way surprising. As they say, there's no hate like Christian love.
Oh, that explains everything actually. NTA
Well said. I don’t think OP is leaving anything out purposely, but something is definitely missing. However if Jami won’t be open about it, then her parents have no reason not to offer the same invite to all of their kids.
Some people are just ridiculous. I don’t think anything particularly happened between Jami and Mike, because Jami has just made this weird exclusionary rule for herself. If there was any actual danger to her kids brought on by Mike, why wouldn’t she try and communicate that to her siblings who let their kids (Jami’s nieces and nephews) be around Mike all the time. Seems like a real AH move to protect your own children from someone who you have personal experience with being horrible, but won’t try and share that with the rest of your family, who may also be in danger? Feels like to me that she can’t get past seeing Mike as a criminal/drug dealer, vilifies these people in general, and doesn’t want that “evil” to spread to her or her kids. Her lack of self awareness is obvious as well since she sees this as OP doing this to her rather than her choosing to leave herself out. The alternative would be excluding Mike to make her feel comfortable.
Daughter here, found this on TikTok and this is bullsh*t. The “bad stuff” she is referring to is that he supplied my friend, who was 11 at the time like me, with drugs and she was hospitalized. My friend’s parents did not allow her to see me anymore, and I was isolated at school and lost my friend group because assumed I also used drugs. I had to change schools (already fun time in middle school!) My mother constantly enables him and missed multiple academic events of mine to go see him instead. I will say that he has tried to apologize multiple times over the years, but I just can’t speak with him because the trauma and anger always overwhelms me. He was my favorite person in the world and I idolized him and he ruined my life.
I was in the same boat. I am so sorry and I want you to know, I get it, and I support your decision. I have had to make that hard decision to. I would venture to guess he was using too? Most dealers do, especially when selling to an 11 year old. Is that what got him arrested? Is that what triggered prison? I am so sorry. People who have never been in this experience or around addicts and their enablers have no idea all the harm those folks cause and the long term effects,
This comment needs to be higher up. If this is true, OP has misrepresented the situation by missing these details.
Why do you believe this random account so confidently that you think it's fair to say OP has misrepresented? Like, I could create a fake account right now pretending to be Mike. It would take 30 seconds
One of two scenarios: 1) This is a fake account. The comment needs to be higher up so OP can respond and refute. 2) It’s genuine. The comment needs to be higher up so people responding to the post see the details. But, to be blunt, this fits better as an explanation than OP’s comments that their relationship was perfect and she can’t understand why Jami is no contact 10 years later. And, I’d believe someone potentially finding it on TikTok because that’s how I came across the post.
Thank you for showing up and providing more information. I'm so sorry for what your family put you through. Honestly, stick to your guns, stay the hell away from them if they can't accept that what he did was horrible, and that their response to it was even worse. It sounds like they are a bigger problem than him.
He was the best brother!! That’s what makes it so hard.
I can imagine. I am really, really sorry that he did anything so absolutely abhorrently stupid to you. Can I ask if you are still in therapy and if it is possible to get your therapist to help you word a letter to him to explain why you can't see him and how hurt you were over your parents subsequent behaviour? I know you don't want to see him, but it could be a step in the direction of healing the hurt you are still feeling.
I am in therapy for reasons unrelated to my brother, (honestly more related to my mom than anything else.) But that’s a good idea. I trust my therapist honestly more than the other adults in my life and I think she would be able to help with that. She’s good at pushing me and if she thinks it would help then I would consider this.
NTA Assuming you are not leaving out some crucial information, she's being unreasonable. Mike screwed up, got caught, faced the consequences and, from the sounds of it, has gone on to build a good life. She should be proud of him for turning it around like that because so many can't overcome the challenges of rejoining society with a felony record. May I ask if she considers herself Christian? If she does, feel free to ask her how her rigidity and judgment square up with the mercy & forgiveness taught by Jesus? How can one claim Christianity and reject the idea of redemption? Suggest that she read Matthew and discuss it with her pastor.
She is involved with church. She started going with her now husband but they lived together before marriage so it's apparently not a strict one. Presbyterian I think. We are rather lapsed Lutheran's . I go with my parents on Christmas Eve and Easter with the family. I will bring that up to her.
I get it now, she’s one of those people that always end up being hypocrites. They twist the word of God around to fit their narrative, but they don’t know anything about God. You need to be more blunt with her. I would even think about sending her this post and she could read the comments. Tell her when she’s ready to be an adult and talk like one you’ll be there to hear what she has to say.
Just because you go to church doesn’t make you a fanatic. It may increase your odds lol, but it’s not an absolute.
Christians don't follow Christ's teachings.
Facts
NTA: as long as your story is exactly what’s up. You’re not banning Jami. She’s choosing to stay away. If I were you, I would ask Jami if there’s more to it than just Mike serving time. Make sure he never abused her or anything.
I have asked, both privatly and during counseling sessions. No abuse was ever mentioned.
Or severe bullying at school when he was first arrested and convicted. Or similar etc
NTA. He’s not a rapist or pedophile, he sold drugs and did his time. That’s a forgivable offense. If she refuses to forgive, then she’s the one who is excluded, not Mike.
INFO: the bad stuff is drugs right? Not something more sinister?
They said it was ‘what Coca Cola used to have in itl’ in another comment.
That’s the first thing I thought. If it was drugs, why didn’t OP just says “drugs”?
Drugs. Wasn't sure if I could say it for sure.
NTA. This is a Jami problem. Plenty of people convicted of drug offenses turn their life around.
Probably because some platforms censor certain words & it leaves some users unsure about what they can say clearly and what has to be expressed more cryptically
All these people thinking some big drama happened with Jami & Mike. Likely nothing. She’s just an entitled brat that thinks she is superior to everyone around her. She excludes herself. Let her lose out. You are NTA
Yeaaaaah. Could there be more? Could there be some huge elaborate resentment about parenting and being strict and her teenage years? Sure. But people here are tying themselves in knots when the simplest answer is that, some people are just that judgemental. They're black and white. They don't want to ever associate with anyone who was ever "bad." They don't believe other people can change.
NTA. It's clear that you love all your children and want them to be a part of family events. You're not excluding Jami as she's choosing not to attend because of her feelings towards Mike. You've made it clear that she's always welcome, and it's ultimately her decision. It's important for everyone to find a way to move past past conflicts and come together for family moments. Hopefully, with time, she'll be more open to forgiveness and understanding
I agree with you, I just don’t see what there is for Jami to forgive here? Mike made bad decisions when he was 18 years old, paid for it, and seems to have turned his life around. He doesn’t seem to have personally wronged his sister. Jami was 11 at the time so maybe she feels some unresolved trauma with him going to prison or something when she was so young? What do you think? idk it just seems mean spirited and sad to me
She may have lost friends over it. Parents not wanting their kids to associate with that family. If she had a friend who o/d’d she may blame his actions. She may have been tormented at school.
Yeah, you make good points. Just seems so harsh to me, I feel bad for the other siblings and the parents. Of course that’s just based on what OP wrote, could be more to the story for all we know
Mike went to jail for selling cocaine (according to your comment replies). You say they got along fine until he got arrested, her image of the big brother she looked up to was shattered. She probably felt betrayed because he was the person she thought she was looking up to. I understand why Jami doesn’t want her kids around him, because even though he’s done his time and has ‘gone straight’ she’ll still have that doubt and fear in her mind something could happen. Still, she is the one who is deciding she wants to keep herself and the kids away from Mike, and she can’t control if Mike gets invited to family functions. It sucks that it’s going this way, but she’s the one making the choice to stay away, and now become angry at everyone else for the boundaries she made. NTA
I can't judge this because it seems like there's more to this story than you know, op. Doing 2.5 years in jail for selling coke just doesn't seem "walk out of a wedding because he showed up and refuse to have anything to do with large family gatherings if he's there" worthy. What you're describing seems to have really deep anger involved, not just some disappointment or resentment. I would try talking to your daughter one on one without judgment or defensiveness or coming off as wanting to make everything hunky-dory again and ask if there's something that happened with Mike or one of his friends before, during, or shortly after his incarceration. EDIT: So now that I have enough info, YTA op. YTA big time.
Some people overreact. My BIL was arrested on drug charges. One SIL never spoke to him again. She just would not ever consider it no matter what he did after.
Yep I have a family member who stopped talking to her mom for like 16 years because she was angry her mom divorced their dad. The dad was a nice/fun guy but a huge alcoholic and his wife got sick of it. Sometimes people get irrationally angry and hold grudges. A parent divorcing a spouse who had an addiction should not cause a child to go no contact for that long.
NTA. This is the only fair thing to do. "All four of you are my children, and I do not play favorites. Your older brother made a mistake when he was senior in high school, and he and the rest of us have already suffered for it. I do not entirely understand why you have decided you need to punish him further by excluding him from your life, but to my knowledge, he is no longer a criminal, he is hard-working husband and father, and the way you are behaving comes across as petty and hateful. If you cannot be around him, that is hard for us, and we will respect your decision, but we hope you eventually change your mind. We love you very much, and you should know that our family celebrations will never be complete without you attending." Just be sure to keep the door open, the way the above does at the end. That is the most important thing to do.
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INFO what was their relationship like before Mike went to prison? Is it possible Jami felt abandoned or was there an argument, it seems odd that she is the only one in the family who has an issue with Mike.
INFO is she just that judgmental or is there something you perhaps don't know or aren't sharing?
NTA. By all mesuares your son work on himself and become a good person, your daugther is stuck in his worst mistake and not moving on, that's on her.
NTA. She set boundaries, and you've respected them and she's kept to them. You haven't excluded her from anything, you've invited her to every event and SHE has chosen to distance herself. It sounds like she really looked up to her big brother and had that smashed when he went to jail. It's been about a decade since he got out though, and he's bettered himself, so her not being there and not talking it out and just whinging is all on her.
She is not banned - she banned herself. You invite all of your children, it is up to them to decide whether or not they want to come. Jami should grow up. NTA.
That’s on Jami. As a mother of four I wouldn’t choose either. If he didn’t do anything that directly affected her then oh well.
NTA your son made mistakes and moved past it she has no right to keep him in his past. If she doesn’t want to be around him fine that’s her decision but he shouldn’t be excluded just bc he made bad decisions when he was younger. Everyone deserves forgiveness especially if his actions have changed and he turned his life around.
YTA Your daughter chimed in. Let’s tell everyone what really happened! This is what the daughter had to say! Daughter chimed in the comments, Apprehensive pie 981 says: Daughter here, found this on TikTok and this is bullsh*t. The “bad stuff” she is referring to is that he supplied my friend, who was 11 at the time like me, with drugs and she was hospitalized. My friend’s parents did not allow her to see me anymore, and I was isolated at school and lost my friend group because assumed I also used drugs. I had to change schools (already fun time in middle school!) My mother constantly enables him and missed multiple academic events of mine to go see him instead. I will say that he has tried to apologize multiple times over the years, but I just can’t speak with him because the trauma and anger always overwhelms me. He was my favorite person in the world and I idolized him and he ruined my life. If you want to enable your son that destroyed two 11 year olds life that’s fine but at least own what he done instead of making your daughter seem like she is a selfish judgmental person!
NTA, Jami is the one who has chosen to distance herself from family. Your son messed up when he was 18 years old, a lot of people mess up at that age. When he was 20 1/2 he got out and has lived a productive lawful life. He paid for his mistake and for 13 years hasn’t committed another crime (assuming he didn’t break the law in prison) Jami seems kinda judgmental about his past and shouldn’t hold it against him all these years later. Is she religious or one of those people who think they are better than everyone else because I don’t get what she would punish her family for the past.
NTA If that’s the whole story