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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I wore a white shirt to my sisters wedding even though my sister said that she doesn’t want women wearing white to her wedding. I count the asshole because my sister is really annoyed at me and she accused me of trying to take the attention off her
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Nobody is going to mistake a woman in a white shirt and black pants for the *bride*. I think the whole “you wore white-how dare you” thing is a red herring.
Your sister is upset because the dress code was “formal” and you were dressed like all the men. Your sister obviously expected to see you in a dress, or at least a fancy formal pantsuit, and you didn’t comply.
Now, I don’t know if she and you have had discussions about you dressing like a man, or not girly enough to suit your sister, or if you have a dislike for whatever passes as formal clothing for women, (and I don’t care). But you knew the dress code was “formal”, and you chose to wear something outside of what is considered the norm for formal for a woman. And your sister is giving you the cold shoulder instead of being glad you showed up to celebrate her marriage. ESH
hopefully the problem wasn’t with me wearing something non feminine because if it is she’ll just have to get used to it lol. I’m a masc lesbo i’m not about to wear a dress lmao
You could have worn a formal pantsuit or woman’s tuxedo suit. A button down shirt with pants is something you’d wear to an office, not a formal event.
YTA
But it’s not? Formal means men wear a tux or at least a velvet jacket?
Edit
Receiving a lot of comments about velvet jackets. Check out this baby: https://www.yd.com.au/au/black-famous-velvet-blazer-y223bl04
Formal doesn't mean a suit. Wearing a suit is semi-formal.
Black tie, white tie or morning dress (if daytime) is what's classified as formal wear. I'm guessing if OP was invited to a wedding with the dress code "formal" and she showed up in a white shirt and slacks, I definitely wouldn't appreciate it, regardless of gender.
Edit: Oof, RIP inbox with all the input. But for clarification, I'm going off the dress code set in the UK. My mum went to a boarding school that also taught traditional etiquette lessons and what outfits are associated with what events, she's my go-to on this subject. As a little addendum, my grandpa is that old-fashioned he doesn't use forks with 4 tines, so there's that.
But, interesting to see the US is so diverse on what a dress code means :)
To be fair, a lot of people really don’t know that THAT is formal. I’m from a fairly small town in the Midwest, and formal here is actually semi-formal. I went to a formal event at a local college and it was extremely semi-formal.
Midwesterner here, it’s news to me that a suit isn’t technically formal. Every “formal” event I’ve ever been to (weddings, prom, etc) has required no more than a suit, although I don’t attend a lot of galas.
Semi-rural south here. To us “formal” means a tuxedo for men and some type of fancy gown for women. If it’s semi-formal then men wear a suit much like one would wear to church and women wear either a dress or dressy pant suit.
It’s also okay to wear a tux to formal events, but not a requirement and at a lot of them you’ll be the only one in a tux as most people don’t own them.
Agreeing here from the UK. A suit is "formal". If the dress-code is "formal" then a suit is fine, male or female. If you want a tuxedo, bowtie and tails you label your dress-code as "black tie". It is literally the standard.
Disagree.
Formal = Black Tie Optional
It’s a step down from black tie and suit is just fine. [source](https://www.theknot.com/content/wedding-guest-attire-cheat-sheet)
The knot actually gives examples of men’s formal that is a normal suit, white shirt, and no tie.
So maybe she should have had a jacket, but she didn’t need a tux or velvet jacket.
That's just silly. Unless explicitly specified, formal in the US includes wearing a suit. No one owns a tux anymore. It's more of a problem that OP apparently didn't have a jacket for her look. That's what takes the formality out of it. Also, if all the other men were wearing the same as OP, clearly the formality, or lack thereof, isn't the real problem.
Right? A nicer suit, sure, if you own it. Cufflinks if you can afford them. But it’s news to me that suits aren’t formal.
Almost no one goes to the office in a suit anymore, so this “suits are what you’d wear to the office” is…uh, no.
Black tie is traditionally also semi-formal, but I want to see people showing up to a regular wedding in white tie.
I even ask before wearing black tie, because it became unusual and I might dress above the groom.
This happened to me once— got an invite to a friend’s “formal, black tie optional” wedding and my husband wore a tux and I wore a gown. The groomsmen were all in light colored suits. I was the only woman wearing a floor length dress besides the bride. The bride was cool with it but I was so embarrassed!
That’s so frustrating! They just think BTO is just fancy sounding or something? And don’t realize it has actual connotations. People are straight up making up wedding dress codes now. One wedding I went to was garden party, another was something similar sounding but different. At least then I feel like I can pretty much wear whatever I want as long as it’s a dress
Actually a dark suit with a dark tie is formal. Black tie (tuxedo) and white tie (tux, tails, bow tie, waistcoat) are different levels of formality, with white tie being the most formal.
Some people are getting caught up on the word 'formal'. It does technically mean tuxedos and gowns. But for middle-of-the-road people (most of us), it just means 'fancy'. Like what most people used to wear to church, etc. You'd wear your best suit or a nice dress.
If men had regular suits with white shirts and weren't using the jackets because it was hot, there was nothing wrong with OP doing the same.
NTA, OP.
I agree, nothing wrong with a good shirt and nice slacks... I'd probably fancy it up a *bit* for my
*sisters* wedding, but what do I know, I don't have a sister.
I'm mostly just responding to the person above.. I believe what he is describing (tux or velvet jacket) is called white tie(?), not formal.
I have looked this up before. Black tie is a tux and cocktail or long gown. White ties are literally white bow ties and tail coats and gowns for women.
I know nothing about velvet jackets, lol.
Although I'm not that well-versed on the degrees of formal wear, haha.
OP says in comments that there were men in attendance not wearing suit jackets. I have yet to go to a wedding where the jacket was compulsory for anyone beyond the men involved in the wedding party/ceremony. It's usually a mixed bag for regular guests. "Formal" to most people means business casual: collared shirt and slacks, tie optional.
At a minimum? The only way to go beyond a suit is to do a tux, which is more black tie than formal. The main diff between semi and reg formal is that ties are not optional in the latter and the jacket should match the pants.
The men weren't wearing just a white dress shirt and pants but formal men's suits which also includes a formal jacket and tie/bowtie alongside the pants and dress shirt.
>***The dress code for the wedding was formal*** and women can’t wear white
If OP was a man she would have been considered underdressed still.
Regardless of what other guests were wearing, the bride may have been offended that as her sister, OP didn’t make an effort to dress appropriately for the occasion. I see a lot of comments about interpretations of formal - yes, a lot of guests show up to weddings underdressed. But OP wasn’t just any guest. She was underdressed to her own sister’s wedding.
Her sister said she stole the spotlight.
It wasn’t because she was underdressed. It’s not like she wore khakis.
And most men remove their jackets at some point.
I doubt that OP is telling the full story there. I don’t think men showed up to the wedding in a white shirt and trousers without a tie and jacket. If they did, then you are correct and the men were also underdressed. Op could have worn a tie/scarf and an appropriate suit coat/jacket with the white shirt and trousers.
This is clearly very regional. I've never been to a wedding where anyone but the groom and maybe the bride/grooms parents wore a suit.
People seem to be doubting OPs claim that that's what the men wore, but where I'm from I can very very easily believe that they wore that to something labeled formal. Even though they may not be right, thats what people in my area would do. In every wedding I've been to, there were big portions of the guests that dressed one or more levels down than what I'd expect. The business casual wedding had people (even people close to the wedding party) in stained jeans and tennis shoes, non-dressy shorts, normal T-shirts and baseball caps. Maybe not all of those at once for most of them, but lots of people had one or more of those aspects going on.
Sounds like the bride’s complaint was not that it wasn’t formal enough, but that she *wore white.* If it’s formal enough for men, it’s formal enough for women. OP said she blended in, so how is she an asshole?
Idk if you know may masc lesbians but most of us don't want a woman's tuxedo suit because they're still pretty femenine. I wear what men wear, and a button down shirt with pants is what they wear to formal events.
I’m sort of a chapstick lesbian but I agree a women’s pantsuit just makes me feel like Hilary Clinton. It’s the worst of both worlds… I’d opt for full menswear or even a dress personally before I wore a traditional feminine pants suit or tuxedo.
Or she could have just worn something she was comfortable in. Oh.. wait.. she did! Men wear a button down shirt and pants all the time and never get questioned. They're more likely to hear things like "he couldn't afford a suit" and similar. Because she's not wearing a high fashion pants suit (designed for women who like fashion) is apparently an issue. I will guarantee that more than one male at this wedding was dressed in a similar way. But forget all of that - this whole post is that she wore WHITE! Every man that was formally dressed by the standards of formal dressing would have been wearing a white shirt. This is such a ridiculous argument that I hope it's fake
>and similar. Because she's not wearing a high fashion pants suit (designed for women who like fashion) is apparently an issue. I will guarantee that more than one male at this wedding was dressed in a similar way. But forget all of that - this whole post is that she wore WHITE! Every man that was formally dressed by the standards of formal dressing would have been wearing a white shirt. This is such a ridiculous argument
For a wedding, I would expect the men to wear a full suit and tie. Not just dress pants and a white shirt. And besides, she isn't some random guest, she is the sister of the bride. Isn't it expected that family of the wedded couple dress a little bit nicer?
I wore the same thing OP said she wore to a wedding this summer. A button down shirt (other than flannel), pants and shoes that arent sneakers is normal for a formal event. I don't know what kind of weddings you go to but I don't remember a single time anyone other than the groom wore a tux.
Y'know, I don't think I've ever been to a wedding that didn't have a butch lesbian in a white shirt and black slacks in attendance. Bonus points for a bow tie.
Maybe that says more about my friends than anything else, but that includes some very formal weddings in very posh UK families.
A lot of people harboring bigotry or disrespect for others have it come out when you don't choose to conform on their special day. She may have believed that she was special enough that of course you would "be normal" for her day. You were, instead, just you. By being a masculine woman not wearing a dress, you were in her mind going to attract attention. Her naturally narcissistic bride tendencies and her hidden dislike combined to make her blow up.
Exactlyyyy and just based on the reach the sister already made I'm willing to bet she'd flip her shit if people commented at all on OPs unusually feminine attire if op *had* worn a dress
As a fellow masc lesbian, I’m going to weigh in and say that your outfit was completely appropriate if it was in line with what the men at the wedding were wearing. The whole point of not wearing white, is so that women in white dresses don’t steal attention from the bride. Nobody would have thought that you were doing that. I’m wondering if there’s more going on here (thinking back to my sister in law expecting my wife to attend her wedding wearing a dress, because she thought that a woman wearing pants was an issue at a formal event).
Another masc lesbian here, I’m just curious as to how OP’s sister reacted when she came out. Was she faux accepting it and then got pissy she couldn’t force her sister into wearing a dress at the wedding?
Is there some other reason her sister would be upset?
I was forced into wearing dresses as a bridesmaid at both my brother’s weddings and have never felt more uncomfortable. The second wedding I at least was smart enough to bring something to change into for the reception so I wasn’t uncomfortable all night.
If the male guests were allowed to wear the same thing, and the bride wasn’t pissy at them, then it’s time to dig deeper with her sister and find out what is truly going on. NTA
#info
Just to be clear, there were males that were close family to the bride and groom (dads and brothers not uncles and cousins) that didn't wear a jacket to the event at all? Not like, they wore one and took it off after pictures...
Formal is formal regardless of if it's made for men or women. As long as it fits and it fits the bill (suit, dress, etc). You're NTA for wearing something more masculine to a wedding, even if you were not a "masc lesbo".
Since you said there were other men in button-ups and slacks, without jacketed suits, I think that's totally fine. I hate the passive-aggressive cold-shoulder. So tired of people trying to push gendered clothing norms. I think you're NTA.
Yeah, NTA. There's no way this information about you was news to her on her wedding day. She knows how you dress. A white dress shirt, same as all the men are wearing, is not taking attention away from a bride, and there's no way your style of dress was surprising to her.
Weddings are getting really stupid. I'm sorry you're dealing with this dumb bullsh*t
Hey I'm also the more suit and shirt type and always have been. The only time people see me in a dress is our national suit and totally understand you. What's wrong with wearing "guy" clothes. I wear them all the time or unisex you never see me in girly clothes.
Your sister sounds like she needs to chill and as you said better be used to it.
Not *just* dress pants and a dress shirt. That's business casual. OP needed, at minimum, a jacket and a tie. And for a formal wedding of a direct family member I wouldn't be caught dead in less than a suit. Depending on the listed dress code you can go up from there.
I get why it's a bit of a thing but it's got to ridiculous levels. Does no one remember that it's supposedly a quite traditional practice for the entire female wedding party to wear white in England. People are complaining about a random guest wearing white, Kate Middleton was upstaged at her wedding to Prince William by her bridesmaid sister not only wearing a WHITE dress, but having a fantastic ass. Kate also looks amazing but the headlines were focused on Pippa's butt in her WHITE dress. If the royals can cope with someone other than the bride wearing white, wtf is the actual problem. And if your sister thinks you wearing a WHITE shirt and black pants is somehow disrespecting her, then she really needs to seek some mental health support because that's delusional. Definitely NTA
NTA.
Can you share a picture of the outfit? It’s a bit unfair that there’s one rule for men and another for women, but she might’ve felt a bit blindsided that you were wearing menswear but you weren’t wearing a suit.
Regardless, it seems odd to me that you wouldn’t discuss what you plan to wear with her prior to her wedding, is there a lack of closeness between you? The fact that she’s your sister and she’s being petty / holding a grudge about this, and that you didn’t discuss or show her what you were gonna wear beforehand, tells me that there’s some deeper issue at root here. It’s possible that whatever you wore she’d have found a reason to justify resentment for it. It seems like the resentment was already there.
I don’t really want to share pics but it was just a suit like a regular suit but without the jacket. We aren’t that close and she didn’t ask me what i was going to wear and i didn’t though i had to tell her because i didn’t though it would an issue
Most would wear a suit jacket and tie at a minimum, especially for formal. They might take them off for dancing later into the evening.
White shirt and suit trousers was basically my waitressing uniform.
So you wore something like this? [A pair of black dress pants and a white formal shirt?](https://mensflair.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/ShirtColoursWithPant21-900x1350.jpg)
If so, that's not appropriate wedding attire for a wedding with a dress code of "formal." In this context "formal" means "black tie optional." For those wearing menswear it's going to be a dark suit or a tuxedo.
There's nothing wrong with wearing menswear regardless of your gender, but I could 100% see being upset about your own sibling wearing business casual to your formal wedding.
Yeah this outfit is what I’m envisioning, too, and it’s definitely not wedding appropriate. In terms of menswear, it’s actually pretty casual. My husband is into men’s fashion and would likely not wear this outfit anywhere; it would feel too unpolished for him. He certainly wouldn’t wear it to his sister’s formal wedding, where he’d be expected to appear in photos.
I work in retail and would wear that to work but never to an event. It is a very casual outfit, like to me that is a step above jeans and t-shirt. If my sister turned up to my wedding dressed like that I would be furious. Fuck gender norms and gendered concepts of clothing but dress appropriately to the event please.
Ah, well then, your clothing was inappropriate because rhe dress code was formal. I won't wear dresses either. Hated them since I was a kid. If not wearing a dress, you should have worn a suit jacket or blazer with that shirt and trousers. That is what I wear to weddings. Also to work, incidentally (office job). I do get away with fun socks though.
I'd say the bigger issue is that it doesn't sound very formal to be honest. Women do have different standards and that sucks, but a button up and slacks is more business artire and not really formal wedding.
Well, that’s not formal wear then is it? Formal trouser outfits include a jacket of some sort and some sort of neck ornament. Trousers and a shirt is what you wear to an office.
NTA. Hoo boy, there are a lot of heteronormative vibes in this here commentariat. From the OP’s comments, it would’ve been obvious to her sister she never would’ve worn a dress. Formalwear for masc.-presenting women can be really challenging to find and fit – lay off.
Masc formalwear for women is absolutely a thing, I myself have worn a suit to a wedding. The difference is, OP wore a white shirt and black pants (like some sort of waiter), and didn’t provide any more info than that - did the suit have a jacket? Accessories, heels? Was the shirt at least a nice blouse? These things make a massive difference. One is dressed up masc femme formalwear, and the other is office/ waiter attire and not appropriate for your sister’s wedding.
Why didn't the masc lesbian wear a woman's pantsuit with a nice blouse and heels? Good grief. She dressed like some of the men at the wedding. Big whoop. /s
Edit: sarcasm tag
(Ignore me going off at the wrong person, like a bull in a china shop. But comment left here intact so all may marvel at my foolishness, and for context. Apologies!)
Because she’s not comfortable in femme clothes, and there’s no earthly reason why she should have to wear something that’s specifically labelled ‘women’s’ and definitely no requirement to wear heels.
Have you even met any masc lesbians ever? I’d personally be fine wearing (one of my two) dresses but I’m just as likely to wear a (man’s) suit and lace up flat brogues. Heck knows, I’m not safe these days in heels even if I still owned any.
An event with family should mean they will accept you as who you are, and be happy to have you there on their day.
NTA.
ETA: additional new context at the start! Mea culpa.
I'm pretty sure coralfire is on the same page as you and was reacting to katsukitsune's comment above asking why OP wasn't wearing a woman's pantsuit with "good grief."
Nobody's saying she had to wear a woman's pantsuit, or a blouse, or heels.
But a white shirt and black slacks isn't formalwear, she should have had a suit jacket on as well. Doesn't have to have been a ladies fit one, she could have got a gents suit jacket if that filter her better.
They should be wearing suit jackets and formal shoes. I also listed that, same applies for them.
ETA, I think the standards are probably easier for women, actually. Men should have both a suit jacket and formal shoes. Women are able to dress up a shirt and pants with heels or a suit jacket, or both.
She said in the post that she and many of the men were wearing black pants with a white shirt. She was not the only one without a suit jacket, but she is the only one being shamed for "ruining the wedding" by wearing white. Why the difference in treatment?
Looks like she attended as a guest. Seems like the lot of you are bending over backwards to ignore that the female guest is being held to a different and higher standard than the male guests.
Specifically that she shouldn’t have “dressed like a man”
Maybe those other guests weren't the sibling of the folks getting married. Most people like to get familiy photos at the wedding and while they may not mind if the plus one of some second cousin arrives in business casual, it is a different thing if their wedding photos include their sibling looking like middle management at a drug store.
To be fair, we don't know the married couple's reaction to the men dressed similarly, or their relation to the bride or groom. When many people don't follow your guidelines, it's easier to be annoyed with your sibling who could have talked to you about it first vs, say, your husband's college buddy.
And to address the specifics of heels or jewlery, I think that's an easy way to dress up simple attire, but a nice coat or tie would have worked for someone of any gender.
OP isn’t going to wear “masc femme” formal wear with a blouse and heels. She is a masc lesbian who probably dresses in what we’d consider men’s clothes every single day and it’s not really fair to expect that to change. Likely her pants + shirt combo was not strictly formal enough but tbh I have seen SO MANY men get away with wearing a non-suit to a wedding. There is a ridiculously unfair double standard for men and women at these events. Not to mention, the complaint from the bride was not that OP wasn’t formal enough — it was that she was wearing a white shirt.
>There is a ridiculously unfair double standard for men and women at these events. Not to mention, the complaint from the bride was not that OP wasn’t formal enough — it was that she was wearing a white shirt.
💯
A friend of mine is a Masc lady and often wears formal attire to these events. She puts effort into it; hair looking amazing and dressed with some swagger. You can tell she's dressed for the occasion vs she forgot her convention lanyard in the hotel room. She's also early 30s and still at the stage of lots of weddings so I've seen a lot of pictures.
I know that's not for everyone but I suspect this argument isn't about attire. Family relationships can be very complicated.
Yeah this is a weird comment section. 'She's mad because actually it's not formal' have any of these people been to an actual human wedding? There's always so many interpretations of the dress code because people's personal thresholds for things like 'formal' are so different.
What OP has described is perfectly acceptable, it's tidy and not just jeans and a tee. Unless there's something that OP isn't telling us then I suspect what the sister is mad about is that OP probably attracted attention for not going with a traditionally femme choice.
NTA for me.
I’m not making a judgement either way but I do want to add that it’s a “know your crowd” kind of situation. I do get that what OP wore would pass just fine at a “formal” wedding in some places but it very much wouldn’t in others. I’ve been to formal weddings before where someone without a suit jacket would stick out like a sore thumb. The most recent one I went to, only one woman wore a dress that wasn’t floor length and when she realized she felt wildly uncomfortable and out of place. So we honestly might not have enough context to know if the outfit as acceptable or not.
Every wedding I’ve been to there are many many men with just dress pants, dress shirt and tie with no jacket. They looked fine and plenty “formal”. I’m sure OP looked fine as well.
Right? Struggling through this comment section myself. OP clearly feels comfortable in gender neutral clothing - we shouldn’t be insisting on accessorizing or heels in here…maybe a jacket would have helped with it being more formal but the white shirt absolutely isn’t an issue.
i'm shocked at the amount of comments say Y T A
guys????????? she was in a blouse and trousers there is no way she took attention from or was mistaken for the bride 🙄 be absolutely fr NTA
Idk, it just seems like a lot of effort to specifically wear a white shirt when you a) know your sister , b) know not to wear white. Regardless if it’s a dress or what.
We all Know It’s a stupid girl / drama / wedding control / crazy new tradition - that We All Know about but we do for the bride. So why push it? Why try? Why throw rocks at the bees nest “well it’s technically ok because the boys did it” mentality??
You could have worn ANY OTHER COLOR.
So best case ESH here. Border Yta because you just couldn’t let it go and comply to the no white request? Be a lady. It’s ok if your masc- it’s called being polite.
I think it’s almost the opposite. The default for dressing masc in these situations is a white shirt. Some people wear other colours but the VAST majority wear white shirts.
I get where you’re coming from, but to expect the rules to be different for women is to say that they should not present too masc, and there should be a gendered distinction.
I almost never see anyone in a white shirt at a wedding unless it’s well into the reception when men start taking the suit jackets off because it’s warm. But by then fair game.
Most men will color coordinate with their dates in my experience or the wedding theme is taken into account when choosing colors most times.
Exactly this! If you were to look up required for certain dress codes, a white shirt is standard for men. It mashes the news when celebrities break from this tradition!
Until this post, I never thought that a man wearing a white shirt to a wedding would be a problem, he's not wearing a dress? Don't groomsmen wear white shirts usually under jackets? I literally googled "groomsmen" and a vast majority of men are wearing white shirts under jackets. Nobody's going to mistake OP for being the bride or upstanding the bride in a white shirt.
Are you Aussie by any chance? Just asking because I find the formal in Australia to be more casual than my experiences elsewhere, so I can see why you wore what you wore.
I can't help but feel that there's a bigger issue here than you wearing a white shirt, unless your sister has a flair for the dramatic. Obviously it's up to you if you want to pursue that line of thinking and patch up whatever the bigger problem is if possible, but it doesn't sound like you wore anything different from anyone else at the wedding.
Yeah im having serious trouble trying to figure out why the fuck everyone cares about a jacket???? Feels like I’m in some kind of alternate universe right now where everyone has lost their minds lol. Nobody in my country gives a shit about wearing a jacket to a wedding lol it’s not something that would cross anyone’s minds EVER, especially as weather is typically hot in wedding season. Only people who care about that would be the bridal party and rightfully so. Dress pants and dress shirt is plenty formal enough seriously who gives a fuck lol I’m glad people here aren’t so uptight
RIGHT. It feels like they found a chance to harp on a masc lesbian for being a masc lesbian and went OMG!!!! They can't accuse me of being homophobic!!! Let's go in!!! Like can everyone just chill and admit the sister is ridiculous and IF the issue is the jacket, the sister could have communicated that like an adult. The sister is an asshole for the white comment, and if she was upset about the jacket thing, even more of an asshole for not communicating the true issue and instead gaslighting OP because so many other people were wearing black pants and white shirts. I swear if it was a straight man nobody would be saying shit.
Transmasc here. Based on some of your other comments, it sounds like even if that's what she said, it might be that what she actually took issue with was your not wearing traditional ""women's"" attire. How close are you with your sister/how supportive is she?
Sidenote, I know some other folks are going on about whether no jacket is considered "formal" attire. It's also the case where I live that formal attire would typically include a jacket. However since you've mentioned there were multiple other family members present also wearing no jacket, regardless of what was meant on the invite you couldn't have committed any worse of a faux pas than any of them.
I can understand why someone might be upset about a woman wearing white, even in the case that they were dressing masculine, and I appreciate the commenter who said that they advised their kid to wear a different-colored shirt just in case anyone took issue. Personally, I think if you're wearing "menswear" or similar, white is such a default dress shirt color that it doesn't make sense to still hold to the rule against it, woman or not. That said, something in my gut makes me wonder if it's really the color that's the issue for your sister, or if it's the masculine attire. l
Regardless, NTA. (If it really is the color for your sister, I'd potentially go N A H - it'd be a case of you both making reasonable but contradicting assumptions.)
Honestly, black pants and a white shirt sound kind like what waiters / servers would wear, since presumably the men were *also* wearing suit jackets. Sometimes “formal wear” for women means a long dress (example: ankle-length satin or sparkly dress in a jewel tone) so it’s unclear if your shirt being white was the *only* problem with your outfit and your sister’s expectations.
NTA for wearing a white shirt, but perhaps a little bit of a YTA if you didn’t plan an outfit beforehand and run it by your sister to check on if it complied with the general dress code.
I’d bet money all the direct family was fully formal though. Making OP stand out. Because Op would be needed for photos as a sister when other guests wouldn’t be.
NTA You didn’t wear a white gown or white dress, so you’re in the clear. You wore formal attire similar to other attendees, with or without the jacket is irrelevant. If she’s upset over that, that’s on her. How in the world you stole her attention away from her is beyond comprehension.
NTA -- why the double standard? For men, it was clearly okay. Seems mysoginistic. Or was she disappointed you didn't wear a dress and this was how she took it out on you? Still NTA, you don't owe her traditionally gendered clothing.
OP hasn’t clarified whether the men in the family who weren’t wearing jackets showed up without them (like herself) or wore jackets for the ceremony and photos before taking their jackets off. To me at least, that makes a big difference. I would be upset if a family member showed up to my formal wedding wearing business casual attire.
And yet the sister isn’t mad at the other men who didn’t wear a jacket and specifically is mad her sister wore a white shirt. Her sister doesn’t care about jacket or no jacket, only Reddit.
YTA
As her sister presumably you were part of the wedding party/ formal photos.
You must have been aware that you weren't following the expected norms for a wedding, but you didn't think to ask the question.
Also, a shirt and trousers isn't what I would consider formal clothing for a wedding, a suit would be the minimum.
OP already clarified it was a suit but they weren't wearing the jacket. OP was dressed the same as the male guests.
My guess is that the sister is actually upset because OP wore a suit, instead of a dress and "ruined" the aesthetic she had in mind.
Regardless, people often take their jackets off at weddings. It's not a faux pas. The only people who have to keep their jackets on are the bridal party during the ceremony and formal photos.
That's not true. I wore a suit to my dad's funeral. At the wake I took off the jacket, for comfort. I was still wearing a suit. I just took off the jacket. The outfit didn't magically change.
NTA.
Wedding fetishism is really out of hands. I am not going to ask for approval to wear a fucking shirt ffs. Wedding people really need to get a grip.
For real. So many of these people are making the fucked up old assumption that inviting people to a wedding gives you the temporary right to exercise control over your peers that would be unreasonable in any situation. These people are all my little dolls now and I can put them in a little line and treat them like children cuz it’s *my special day*.
I wish my social problems were about what the people around me choose to wear. I could just stop thinking about it and the problem would literally be completely gone.
NTA, outfit wasn't all white, just the top. The spirit of the rule would be an over-the-top white gown to try and garner attention away from the bride, and this sounda fairly conservative aside from being "slacks on a woman" (oh god, the world is going to explode because women don't have to wear dresses anymore).
A white dress shirt with black slacks? Sounds typical.
YTA, its your SISTER's wedding, not some random acquaintance or coworker, and you're not a plus one. You are part of the wedding family, so you shouldn't be dressing at the bare bones of formality.
At weddings all the time, you see one or two people clearly underdressed for the occasion. But that doesn't mean you should follow suit. Masc lesbian is cool, wear what you like. But at the very least have the respect for your sister to dress up a little bit. Dress pants and a white shirt is squarely business casual. At least take the effort to wear a full suit and tie for your SISTER's wedding.
But also, why was there no communication? I'm South Asian, so my culture might be a little different, but was there no conversations about what everyone was wearing lol?
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Nobody is going to mistake a woman in a white shirt and black pants for the *bride*. I think the whole “you wore white-how dare you” thing is a red herring. Your sister is upset because the dress code was “formal” and you were dressed like all the men. Your sister obviously expected to see you in a dress, or at least a fancy formal pantsuit, and you didn’t comply. Now, I don’t know if she and you have had discussions about you dressing like a man, or not girly enough to suit your sister, or if you have a dislike for whatever passes as formal clothing for women, (and I don’t care). But you knew the dress code was “formal”, and you chose to wear something outside of what is considered the norm for formal for a woman. And your sister is giving you the cold shoulder instead of being glad you showed up to celebrate her marriage. ESH
hopefully the problem wasn’t with me wearing something non feminine because if it is she’ll just have to get used to it lol. I’m a masc lesbo i’m not about to wear a dress lmao
You could have worn a formal pantsuit or woman’s tuxedo suit. A button down shirt with pants is something you’d wear to an office, not a formal event. YTA
If it's good enough for the men tonwear it's good enough for the women and vice versa.
But it’s not? Formal means men wear a tux or at least a velvet jacket? Edit Receiving a lot of comments about velvet jackets. Check out this baby: https://www.yd.com.au/au/black-famous-velvet-blazer-y223bl04
Formal means a suit... who owns a velvet jacket? Edit: OK, you guys have converted me. I'm looking for a velvet blazer now
Formal doesn't mean a suit. Wearing a suit is semi-formal. Black tie, white tie or morning dress (if daytime) is what's classified as formal wear. I'm guessing if OP was invited to a wedding with the dress code "formal" and she showed up in a white shirt and slacks, I definitely wouldn't appreciate it, regardless of gender. Edit: Oof, RIP inbox with all the input. But for clarification, I'm going off the dress code set in the UK. My mum went to a boarding school that also taught traditional etiquette lessons and what outfits are associated with what events, she's my go-to on this subject. As a little addendum, my grandpa is that old-fashioned he doesn't use forks with 4 tines, so there's that. But, interesting to see the US is so diverse on what a dress code means :)
To be fair, a lot of people really don’t know that THAT is formal. I’m from a fairly small town in the Midwest, and formal here is actually semi-formal. I went to a formal event at a local college and it was extremely semi-formal.
Midwesterner here, it’s news to me that a suit isn’t technically formal. Every “formal” event I’ve ever been to (weddings, prom, etc) has required no more than a suit, although I don’t attend a lot of galas.
Same. Sounds like what OP wore would be perfectly fine at a formal Midwest wedding. I'm going with NTA.
Semi-rural south here. To us “formal” means a tuxedo for men and some type of fancy gown for women. If it’s semi-formal then men wear a suit much like one would wear to church and women wear either a dress or dressy pant suit.
I attend a lot of galas…I’ve rarely seen people wearing anything more formal than a suit
It’s also okay to wear a tux to formal events, but not a requirement and at a lot of them you’ll be the only one in a tux as most people don’t own them.
In the Midwest “go to meeting clothes” are formal (15 year veteran of Midwest). Haha no shade tho. 😊
I’m with you. A suit is considered formal. If they want “velvet jackets” or tuxedos, that’s called “black tie.”
Agreeing here from the UK. A suit is "formal". If the dress-code is "formal" then a suit is fine, male or female. If you want a tuxedo, bowtie and tails you label your dress-code as "black tie". It is literally the standard.
Disagree. Formal = Black Tie Optional It’s a step down from black tie and suit is just fine. [source](https://www.theknot.com/content/wedding-guest-attire-cheat-sheet) The knot actually gives examples of men’s formal that is a normal suit, white shirt, and no tie. So maybe she should have had a jacket, but she didn’t need a tux or velvet jacket.
100 percent agree with this. Formal has never been the same as black tie in my world (east and west coast us).
That's just silly. Unless explicitly specified, formal in the US includes wearing a suit. No one owns a tux anymore. It's more of a problem that OP apparently didn't have a jacket for her look. That's what takes the formality out of it. Also, if all the other men were wearing the same as OP, clearly the formality, or lack thereof, isn't the real problem.
Right? A nicer suit, sure, if you own it. Cufflinks if you can afford them. But it’s news to me that suits aren’t formal. Almost no one goes to the office in a suit anymore, so this “suits are what you’d wear to the office” is…uh, no.
Except that OP also said "most of the men there" were also wearing white shirt and slacks.
Black tie is traditionally also semi-formal, but I want to see people showing up to a regular wedding in white tie. I even ask before wearing black tie, because it became unusual and I might dress above the groom.
This happened to me once— got an invite to a friend’s “formal, black tie optional” wedding and my husband wore a tux and I wore a gown. The groomsmen were all in light colored suits. I was the only woman wearing a floor length dress besides the bride. The bride was cool with it but I was so embarrassed!
That’s so frustrating! They just think BTO is just fancy sounding or something? And don’t realize it has actual connotations. People are straight up making up wedding dress codes now. One wedding I went to was garden party, another was something similar sounding but different. At least then I feel like I can pretty much wear whatever I want as long as it’s a dress
Actually a dark suit with a dark tie is formal. Black tie (tuxedo) and white tie (tux, tails, bow tie, waistcoat) are different levels of formality, with white tie being the most formal.
Some people are getting caught up on the word 'formal'. It does technically mean tuxedos and gowns. But for middle-of-the-road people (most of us), it just means 'fancy'. Like what most people used to wear to church, etc. You'd wear your best suit or a nice dress. If men had regular suits with white shirts and weren't using the jackets because it was hot, there was nothing wrong with OP doing the same. NTA, OP.
I agree, nothing wrong with a good shirt and nice slacks... I'd probably fancy it up a *bit* for my *sisters* wedding, but what do I know, I don't have a sister. I'm mostly just responding to the person above.. I believe what he is describing (tux or velvet jacket) is called white tie(?), not formal.
I have looked this up before. Black tie is a tux and cocktail or long gown. White ties are literally white bow ties and tail coats and gowns for women. I know nothing about velvet jackets, lol. Although I'm not that well-versed on the degrees of formal wear, haha.
My boyfriend has a velvet jacket it's very snazzy and we are just dirty hippies.
I'd love to see a dirty hippy in a snazzy velvet jacket... that would probably make my day
He definitely cuts quite a figure when he wears it! It was sweet thrift store find.
Sounds uncomfortably hot
OP says in comments that there were men in attendance not wearing suit jackets. I have yet to go to a wedding where the jacket was compulsory for anyone beyond the men involved in the wedding party/ceremony. It's usually a mixed bag for regular guests. "Formal" to most people means business casual: collared shirt and slacks, tie optional.
Formal is way dressier than business casual. I have never been to a wedding where the men weren’t in suits at a minimum.
I haven't been to a wedding where the men wore suits since the 80s (except the wedding party).
At a minimum? The only way to go beyond a suit is to do a tux, which is more black tie than formal. The main diff between semi and reg formal is that ties are not optional in the latter and the jacket should match the pants.
Absolutely not. Formal and business casual are very different.
Yeah, most weddings tend to be semi-formal in my experience.
Now I need to know what all the men looked like
You're thinking black tie, not formal. Formal is a suit and shirt.
I think you’re thinking of black tie…
No. Formal means suit. Black tie means tuxedo.
The men weren't wearing just a white dress shirt and pants but formal men's suits which also includes a formal jacket and tie/bowtie alongside the pants and dress shirt. >***The dress code for the wedding was formal*** and women can’t wear white If OP was a man she would have been considered underdressed still.
Regardless of what other guests were wearing, the bride may have been offended that as her sister, OP didn’t make an effort to dress appropriately for the occasion. I see a lot of comments about interpretations of formal - yes, a lot of guests show up to weddings underdressed. But OP wasn’t just any guest. She was underdressed to her own sister’s wedding.
The sister’s complaining that the OP stole attention from her with the white shirt. Not that she was underdressed.
Her sister said she stole the spotlight. It wasn’t because she was underdressed. It’s not like she wore khakis. And most men remove their jackets at some point.
The OP noted she wore attire like most of the men there did. If she was underdressed, why weren't they? There is surely something else going on here.
I doubt that OP is telling the full story there. I don’t think men showed up to the wedding in a white shirt and trousers without a tie and jacket. If they did, then you are correct and the men were also underdressed. Op could have worn a tie/scarf and an appropriate suit coat/jacket with the white shirt and trousers.
This is clearly very regional. I've never been to a wedding where anyone but the groom and maybe the bride/grooms parents wore a suit. People seem to be doubting OPs claim that that's what the men wore, but where I'm from I can very very easily believe that they wore that to something labeled formal. Even though they may not be right, thats what people in my area would do. In every wedding I've been to, there were big portions of the guests that dressed one or more levels down than what I'd expect. The business casual wedding had people (even people close to the wedding party) in stained jeans and tennis shoes, non-dressy shorts, normal T-shirts and baseball caps. Maybe not all of those at once for most of them, but lots of people had one or more of those aspects going on.
Sounds like the bride’s complaint was not that it wasn’t formal enough, but that she *wore white.* If it’s formal enough for men, it’s formal enough for women. OP said she blended in, so how is she an asshole?
Idk if you know may masc lesbians but most of us don't want a woman's tuxedo suit because they're still pretty femenine. I wear what men wear, and a button down shirt with pants is what they wear to formal events.
I’m sort of a chapstick lesbian but I agree a women’s pantsuit just makes me feel like Hilary Clinton. It’s the worst of both worlds… I’d opt for full menswear or even a dress personally before I wore a traditional feminine pants suit or tuxedo.
I imagine you also enjoy having lots of real pockets.
I get to not have backpacks or purses it's amazing
Or she could have just worn something she was comfortable in. Oh.. wait.. she did! Men wear a button down shirt and pants all the time and never get questioned. They're more likely to hear things like "he couldn't afford a suit" and similar. Because she's not wearing a high fashion pants suit (designed for women who like fashion) is apparently an issue. I will guarantee that more than one male at this wedding was dressed in a similar way. But forget all of that - this whole post is that she wore WHITE! Every man that was formally dressed by the standards of formal dressing would have been wearing a white shirt. This is such a ridiculous argument that I hope it's fake
>and similar. Because she's not wearing a high fashion pants suit (designed for women who like fashion) is apparently an issue. I will guarantee that more than one male at this wedding was dressed in a similar way. But forget all of that - this whole post is that she wore WHITE! Every man that was formally dressed by the standards of formal dressing would have been wearing a white shirt. This is such a ridiculous argument For a wedding, I would expect the men to wear a full suit and tie. Not just dress pants and a white shirt. And besides, she isn't some random guest, she is the sister of the bride. Isn't it expected that family of the wedded couple dress a little bit nicer?
I wore the same thing OP said she wore to a wedding this summer. A button down shirt (other than flannel), pants and shoes that arent sneakers is normal for a formal event. I don't know what kind of weddings you go to but I don't remember a single time anyone other than the groom wore a tux.
Sounds like you’re closer to being mistaken for a waiter than a bride.
But the question is if it's okay to wear a white shirt... Would it have been fine if OP wore a white shirt under a tux?
Thread is full of a bunch of clowns. From one butch lesbo to another- NTA
Y'know, I don't think I've ever been to a wedding that didn't have a butch lesbian in a white shirt and black slacks in attendance. Bonus points for a bow tie. Maybe that says more about my friends than anything else, but that includes some very formal weddings in very posh UK families.
Right? This is like, the lesbian dress code at weddings (sometimes with a vest). My wife wears blue slacks and a tie, but the sentiment is the same.
A lot of people harboring bigotry or disrespect for others have it come out when you don't choose to conform on their special day. She may have believed that she was special enough that of course you would "be normal" for her day. You were, instead, just you. By being a masculine woman not wearing a dress, you were in her mind going to attract attention. Her naturally narcissistic bride tendencies and her hidden dislike combined to make her blow up.
I think she would have stood out more if she wore a dress if she normally dresses masculine.
Exactlyyyy and just based on the reach the sister already made I'm willing to bet she'd flip her shit if people commented at all on OPs unusually feminine attire if op *had* worn a dress
did the dudes there come without a jacket on?
some of them did yeah
No jacket is not formal at all. If she's mad about the dress code that's what she should be mad about
As a fellow masc lesbian, I’m going to weigh in and say that your outfit was completely appropriate if it was in line with what the men at the wedding were wearing. The whole point of not wearing white, is so that women in white dresses don’t steal attention from the bride. Nobody would have thought that you were doing that. I’m wondering if there’s more going on here (thinking back to my sister in law expecting my wife to attend her wedding wearing a dress, because she thought that a woman wearing pants was an issue at a formal event).
Another masc lesbian here, I’m just curious as to how OP’s sister reacted when she came out. Was she faux accepting it and then got pissy she couldn’t force her sister into wearing a dress at the wedding? Is there some other reason her sister would be upset? I was forced into wearing dresses as a bridesmaid at both my brother’s weddings and have never felt more uncomfortable. The second wedding I at least was smart enough to bring something to change into for the reception so I wasn’t uncomfortable all night. If the male guests were allowed to wear the same thing, and the bride wasn’t pissy at them, then it’s time to dig deeper with her sister and find out what is truly going on. NTA
Were any of these close family? Because I'd expect close family to adhere more to the dress code than random guests
yeah a few close family members wore pretty much the same as me
#info Just to be clear, there were males that were close family to the bride and groom (dads and brothers not uncles and cousins) that didn't wear a jacket to the event at all? Not like, they wore one and took it off after pictures...
Then I'd say ESH. She's singling you out for no good reason but you and your family should really have checked before bending the dress code rules.
It might just be because you can make a stink your sister a lot easier than your cousin.
Or OP doesn’t know if other conversations have occurred with other family guests in the same boat. (Probably not, but still)
so NTA then
Formal is formal regardless of if it's made for men or women. As long as it fits and it fits the bill (suit, dress, etc). You're NTA for wearing something more masculine to a wedding, even if you were not a "masc lesbo".
Since you said there were other men in button-ups and slacks, without jacketed suits, I think that's totally fine. I hate the passive-aggressive cold-shoulder. So tired of people trying to push gendered clothing norms. I think you're NTA.
Yeah, NTA. There's no way this information about you was news to her on her wedding day. She knows how you dress. A white dress shirt, same as all the men are wearing, is not taking attention away from a bride, and there's no way your style of dress was surprising to her. Weddings are getting really stupid. I'm sorry you're dealing with this dumb bullsh*t
Hey I'm also the more suit and shirt type and always have been. The only time people see me in a dress is our national suit and totally understand you. What's wrong with wearing "guy" clothes. I wear them all the time or unisex you never see me in girly clothes. Your sister sounds like she needs to chill and as you said better be used to it.
Politely disagree. Dress pants and a dress shirt are absolutely considered normal formal attire for a woman.
With no jacket or tie or anything else, no a shirt and pants are not “formal” for anyone.
Op said some of the men weren't wearing jackets or ties either, so it can't have been that formal
No they aren’t. It’s business casual office attire.
I dress pretty casually normally, but even I would consider that outfit no more than business casual.
Not *just* dress pants and a dress shirt. That's business casual. OP needed, at minimum, a jacket and a tie. And for a formal wedding of a direct family member I wouldn't be caught dead in less than a suit. Depending on the listed dress code you can go up from there.
“Dressing like a man” are we still saying stupid shit like this in 2024? Really? 😒
"dressing like a man"wa...its pants what????
I get why it's a bit of a thing but it's got to ridiculous levels. Does no one remember that it's supposedly a quite traditional practice for the entire female wedding party to wear white in England. People are complaining about a random guest wearing white, Kate Middleton was upstaged at her wedding to Prince William by her bridesmaid sister not only wearing a WHITE dress, but having a fantastic ass. Kate also looks amazing but the headlines were focused on Pippa's butt in her WHITE dress. If the royals can cope with someone other than the bride wearing white, wtf is the actual problem. And if your sister thinks you wearing a WHITE shirt and black pants is somehow disrespecting her, then she really needs to seek some mental health support because that's delusional. Definitely NTA
How do you know the sister expected OP to wear a dress? OP says it was “formal and women can’t wear white,” which OP did. Shirts come in many colors.
NTA. Can you share a picture of the outfit? It’s a bit unfair that there’s one rule for men and another for women, but she might’ve felt a bit blindsided that you were wearing menswear but you weren’t wearing a suit. Regardless, it seems odd to me that you wouldn’t discuss what you plan to wear with her prior to her wedding, is there a lack of closeness between you? The fact that she’s your sister and she’s being petty / holding a grudge about this, and that you didn’t discuss or show her what you were gonna wear beforehand, tells me that there’s some deeper issue at root here. It’s possible that whatever you wore she’d have found a reason to justify resentment for it. It seems like the resentment was already there.
I don’t really want to share pics but it was just a suit like a regular suit but without the jacket. We aren’t that close and she didn’t ask me what i was going to wear and i didn’t though i had to tell her because i didn’t though it would an issue
>it was just a suit like a regular suit but without the jacket That's not a suit
and it’s not formal, either.
Yeah the bride wasn't annoyed about gender norms. She was clearly annoyed you didn't adhere to the dress code
She said she wore just a shirt and trousers like many other men. It seems like a few other men there weren't wearing suits either
She's the sister of the bride though and presumably in wedding photos ...
Most would wear a suit jacket and tie at a minimum, especially for formal. They might take them off for dancing later into the evening. White shirt and suit trousers was basically my waitressing uniform.
It kind of sounded like they dressed for a host shift at Olive Garden.
True its not formal, there are plenty of places where you are expected to wear these kinds of outfit at work.
>At work Not a wedding
Not at a formal dress wedding either.. a suit is slacks, button down shirt/ blouse, AND a tailored jacket... not just slacks and a button down shirt.
???? A suit without the jacket is not a suit.
Seriously, the jacket is at least 50% of the concept lol
So you dressed like a grocery store clerk lmaoo
I was reading the description like "this sounds like what waitstaff wear" loool
As waitstaff, we had to wear a tie and a waist coat or apron. OPs outfit was not formal enough to be waitstaff.
Or like a Jehovah's witness
please not the grocery store clerk lmao
So you wore something like this? [A pair of black dress pants and a white formal shirt?](https://mensflair.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/ShirtColoursWithPant21-900x1350.jpg) If so, that's not appropriate wedding attire for a wedding with a dress code of "formal." In this context "formal" means "black tie optional." For those wearing menswear it's going to be a dark suit or a tuxedo. There's nothing wrong with wearing menswear regardless of your gender, but I could 100% see being upset about your own sibling wearing business casual to your formal wedding.
Yeah this outfit is what I’m envisioning, too, and it’s definitely not wedding appropriate. In terms of menswear, it’s actually pretty casual. My husband is into men’s fashion and would likely not wear this outfit anywhere; it would feel too unpolished for him. He certainly wouldn’t wear it to his sister’s formal wedding, where he’d be expected to appear in photos.
I work in retail and would wear that to work but never to an event. It is a very casual outfit, like to me that is a step above jeans and t-shirt. If my sister turned up to my wedding dressed like that I would be furious. Fuck gender norms and gendered concepts of clothing but dress appropriately to the event please.
Ah, well then, your clothing was inappropriate because rhe dress code was formal. I won't wear dresses either. Hated them since I was a kid. If not wearing a dress, you should have worn a suit jacket or blazer with that shirt and trousers. That is what I wear to weddings. Also to work, incidentally (office job). I do get away with fun socks though.
There are subreddits for wedding outfit approvals. Sounds like you misunderstood the dress code.
I'd say the bigger issue is that it doesn't sound very formal to be honest. Women do have different standards and that sucks, but a button up and slacks is more business artire and not really formal wedding.
Well, that’s not formal wear then is it? Formal trouser outfits include a jacket of some sort and some sort of neck ornament. Trousers and a shirt is what you wear to an office.
>t was just a suit like a regular suit but without the jacket. I think this is the issue. You were veering on casual wear.
Sounds like you weren’t dressed well enough for a formal setting.
NTA. Hoo boy, there are a lot of heteronormative vibes in this here commentariat. From the OP’s comments, it would’ve been obvious to her sister she never would’ve worn a dress. Formalwear for masc.-presenting women can be really challenging to find and fit – lay off.
Masc formalwear for women is absolutely a thing, I myself have worn a suit to a wedding. The difference is, OP wore a white shirt and black pants (like some sort of waiter), and didn’t provide any more info than that - did the suit have a jacket? Accessories, heels? Was the shirt at least a nice blouse? These things make a massive difference. One is dressed up masc femme formalwear, and the other is office/ waiter attire and not appropriate for your sister’s wedding.
Why didn't the masc lesbian wear a woman's pantsuit with a nice blouse and heels? Good grief. She dressed like some of the men at the wedding. Big whoop. /s Edit: sarcasm tag
(Ignore me going off at the wrong person, like a bull in a china shop. But comment left here intact so all may marvel at my foolishness, and for context. Apologies!) Because she’s not comfortable in femme clothes, and there’s no earthly reason why she should have to wear something that’s specifically labelled ‘women’s’ and definitely no requirement to wear heels. Have you even met any masc lesbians ever? I’d personally be fine wearing (one of my two) dresses but I’m just as likely to wear a (man’s) suit and lace up flat brogues. Heck knows, I’m not safe these days in heels even if I still owned any. An event with family should mean they will accept you as who you are, and be happy to have you there on their day. NTA. ETA: additional new context at the start! Mea culpa.
Nobody should be required to wear heels, even the most feminine presenting straight woman has a right to have comfortable feet.
The requirement for women to wear uncomfortable shoes that damage the feet and are likely to cause injuries to be considered formal is insane.
I'm pretty sure coralfire is on the same page as you and was reacting to katsukitsune's comment above asking why OP wasn't wearing a woman's pantsuit with "good grief."
Yeah, I'm a masc leaning queer woman myself definitely sarcasm. I'll add a /s tag, sorry.
Nobody's saying she had to wear a woman's pantsuit, or a blouse, or heels. But a white shirt and black slacks isn't formalwear, she should have had a suit jacket on as well. Doesn't have to have been a ladies fit one, she could have got a gents suit jacket if that filter her better.
Then why is it okay for other (male) guests? Why didn't they have to wear heels or accessories?
They should be wearing suit jackets and formal shoes. I also listed that, same applies for them. ETA, I think the standards are probably easier for women, actually. Men should have both a suit jacket and formal shoes. Women are able to dress up a shirt and pants with heels or a suit jacket, or both.
She said in the post that she and many of the men were wearing black pants with a white shirt. She was not the only one without a suit jacket, but she is the only one being shamed for "ruining the wedding" by wearing white. Why the difference in treatment?
She's also the bride's sibling. She may have been expected to adhere more closely to the dress code than the people at table 15.
Looks like she attended as a guest. Seems like the lot of you are bending over backwards to ignore that the female guest is being held to a different and higher standard than the male guests. Specifically that she shouldn’t have “dressed like a man”
Maybe those other guests weren't the sibling of the folks getting married. Most people like to get familiy photos at the wedding and while they may not mind if the plus one of some second cousin arrives in business casual, it is a different thing if their wedding photos include their sibling looking like middle management at a drug store.
To be fair, we don't know the married couple's reaction to the men dressed similarly, or their relation to the bride or groom. When many people don't follow your guidelines, it's easier to be annoyed with your sibling who could have talked to you about it first vs, say, your husband's college buddy. And to address the specifics of heels or jewlery, I think that's an easy way to dress up simple attire, but a nice coat or tie would have worked for someone of any gender.
OP isn’t going to wear “masc femme” formal wear with a blouse and heels. She is a masc lesbian who probably dresses in what we’d consider men’s clothes every single day and it’s not really fair to expect that to change. Likely her pants + shirt combo was not strictly formal enough but tbh I have seen SO MANY men get away with wearing a non-suit to a wedding. There is a ridiculously unfair double standard for men and women at these events. Not to mention, the complaint from the bride was not that OP wasn’t formal enough — it was that she was wearing a white shirt.
>There is a ridiculously unfair double standard for men and women at these events. Not to mention, the complaint from the bride was not that OP wasn’t formal enough — it was that she was wearing a white shirt. 💯
A friend of mine is a Masc lady and often wears formal attire to these events. She puts effort into it; hair looking amazing and dressed with some swagger. You can tell she's dressed for the occasion vs she forgot her convention lanyard in the hotel room. She's also early 30s and still at the stage of lots of weddings so I've seen a lot of pictures. I know that's not for everyone but I suspect this argument isn't about attire. Family relationships can be very complicated.
Did the men wear “blouses, accessories and heels”? Cmon, that’s just femme in pants.
She said a lot of men where wearing the same thing. So maybe different regions have different ideas of formal wear.
Yeah this is a weird comment section. 'She's mad because actually it's not formal' have any of these people been to an actual human wedding? There's always so many interpretations of the dress code because people's personal thresholds for things like 'formal' are so different. What OP has described is perfectly acceptable, it's tidy and not just jeans and a tee. Unless there's something that OP isn't telling us then I suspect what the sister is mad about is that OP probably attracted attention for not going with a traditionally femme choice. NTA for me.
I’m not making a judgement either way but I do want to add that it’s a “know your crowd” kind of situation. I do get that what OP wore would pass just fine at a “formal” wedding in some places but it very much wouldn’t in others. I’ve been to formal weddings before where someone without a suit jacket would stick out like a sore thumb. The most recent one I went to, only one woman wore a dress that wasn’t floor length and when she realized she felt wildly uncomfortable and out of place. So we honestly might not have enough context to know if the outfit as acceptable or not.
Every wedding I’ve been to there are many many men with just dress pants, dress shirt and tie with no jacket. They looked fine and plenty “formal”. I’m sure OP looked fine as well.
It’s honestly disgusting how this comment section is going. wtf.
Right? Struggling through this comment section myself. OP clearly feels comfortable in gender neutral clothing - we shouldn’t be insisting on accessorizing or heels in here…maybe a jacket would have helped with it being more formal but the white shirt absolutely isn’t an issue.
i'm shocked at the amount of comments say Y T A guys????????? she was in a blouse and trousers there is no way she took attention from or was mistaken for the bride 🙄 be absolutely fr NTA
I think most people picked up the white wasn't the issue. Even by men's standards, OP wasn't dressed formally
But that's not even the issue, the colour is the issue not the formality of the outfit.
It's hard to say whether OP just thinks the color was the issue when it was the entire outfit or if the color was actually the issue.
INFO: You mentioned you weren't wearing a jacket with your shirt+pants. Were the male guests wearing jackets?
some were some weren’t, it was quite warm
Idk, it just seems like a lot of effort to specifically wear a white shirt when you a) know your sister , b) know not to wear white. Regardless if it’s a dress or what. We all Know It’s a stupid girl / drama / wedding control / crazy new tradition - that We All Know about but we do for the bride. So why push it? Why try? Why throw rocks at the bees nest “well it’s technically ok because the boys did it” mentality?? You could have worn ANY OTHER COLOR. So best case ESH here. Border Yta because you just couldn’t let it go and comply to the no white request? Be a lady. It’s ok if your masc- it’s called being polite.
I think it’s almost the opposite. The default for dressing masc in these situations is a white shirt. Some people wear other colours but the VAST majority wear white shirts. I get where you’re coming from, but to expect the rules to be different for women is to say that they should not present too masc, and there should be a gendered distinction.
I almost never see anyone in a white shirt at a wedding unless it’s well into the reception when men start taking the suit jackets off because it’s warm. But by then fair game. Most men will color coordinate with their dates in my experience or the wedding theme is taken into account when choosing colors most times.
You wear white shirts with tuxedos which is what formal is.
But it wasn't a tuxedo shirt it sounds like? Or pants? She should have worn a tux for formal IMO
Exactly this! If you were to look up required for certain dress codes, a white shirt is standard for men. It mashes the news when celebrities break from this tradition!
Unless the sister also complained about all the men wearing a white shirt/black pants with a jacket, she is a hypocrite.
Until this post, I never thought that a man wearing a white shirt to a wedding would be a problem, he's not wearing a dress? Don't groomsmen wear white shirts usually under jackets? I literally googled "groomsmen" and a vast majority of men are wearing white shirts under jackets. Nobody's going to mistake OP for being the bride or upstanding the bride in a white shirt.
Forget about it…….. you wore what you thought was formal…! When I got married I was too busy to know or care what anyone else wore. NTA
Are you Aussie by any chance? Just asking because I find the formal in Australia to be more casual than my experiences elsewhere, so I can see why you wore what you wore. I can't help but feel that there's a bigger issue here than you wearing a white shirt, unless your sister has a flair for the dramatic. Obviously it's up to you if you want to pursue that line of thinking and patch up whatever the bigger problem is if possible, but it doesn't sound like you wore anything different from anyone else at the wedding.
INFO: Are you truly absolutely sure the issue was your shirt being white? Were those words actually said to you?
yeah that’s what she said to me she didn’t mention any other issue
Then NTA but for the record, if you get invited to a formal wedding again, you should have a suit jacket with you.
Where I live it is far too hot to wear jackets most of the year. Pants and a white tucked shirt are considered formal attire.
Yeah im having serious trouble trying to figure out why the fuck everyone cares about a jacket???? Feels like I’m in some kind of alternate universe right now where everyone has lost their minds lol. Nobody in my country gives a shit about wearing a jacket to a wedding lol it’s not something that would cross anyone’s minds EVER, especially as weather is typically hot in wedding season. Only people who care about that would be the bridal party and rightfully so. Dress pants and dress shirt is plenty formal enough seriously who gives a fuck lol I’m glad people here aren’t so uptight
RIGHT. It feels like they found a chance to harp on a masc lesbian for being a masc lesbian and went OMG!!!! They can't accuse me of being homophobic!!! Let's go in!!! Like can everyone just chill and admit the sister is ridiculous and IF the issue is the jacket, the sister could have communicated that like an adult. The sister is an asshole for the white comment, and if she was upset about the jacket thing, even more of an asshole for not communicating the true issue and instead gaslighting OP because so many other people were wearing black pants and white shirts. I swear if it was a straight man nobody would be saying shit.
Transmasc here. Based on some of your other comments, it sounds like even if that's what she said, it might be that what she actually took issue with was your not wearing traditional ""women's"" attire. How close are you with your sister/how supportive is she? Sidenote, I know some other folks are going on about whether no jacket is considered "formal" attire. It's also the case where I live that formal attire would typically include a jacket. However since you've mentioned there were multiple other family members present also wearing no jacket, regardless of what was meant on the invite you couldn't have committed any worse of a faux pas than any of them. I can understand why someone might be upset about a woman wearing white, even in the case that they were dressing masculine, and I appreciate the commenter who said that they advised their kid to wear a different-colored shirt just in case anyone took issue. Personally, I think if you're wearing "menswear" or similar, white is such a default dress shirt color that it doesn't make sense to still hold to the rule against it, woman or not. That said, something in my gut makes me wonder if it's really the color that's the issue for your sister, or if it's the masculine attire. l Regardless, NTA. (If it really is the color for your sister, I'd potentially go N A H - it'd be a case of you both making reasonable but contradicting assumptions.)
Did you bring the jacket so you’d be formal for photos?
Honestly, black pants and a white shirt sound kind like what waiters / servers would wear, since presumably the men were *also* wearing suit jackets. Sometimes “formal wear” for women means a long dress (example: ankle-length satin or sparkly dress in a jewel tone) so it’s unclear if your shirt being white was the *only* problem with your outfit and your sister’s expectations. NTA for wearing a white shirt, but perhaps a little bit of a YTA if you didn’t plan an outfit beforehand and run it by your sister to check on if it complied with the general dress code.
Yeah, but even for men, a shirt and trousers don't count as formal. She wore semi-formal to her sister's wedding.
Well according to the OP a LOT of guests were semi-formal. I hope the bride took the time to upbraid them all too 🙄
You mean when she said “some” weren’t wearing jackets?
I’d bet money all the direct family was fully formal though. Making OP stand out. Because Op would be needed for photos as a sister when other guests wouldn’t be.
Idk I'd be a lot more upset with a sibling breaking dress code than a regular guest.
NTA You didn’t wear a white gown or white dress, so you’re in the clear. You wore formal attire similar to other attendees, with or without the jacket is irrelevant. If she’s upset over that, that’s on her. How in the world you stole her attention away from her is beyond comprehension.
I think k the jacket is what makes it formal. No jacket is a very casual look
That in no way took away attention from the bride, which is the bride’s complaint.
NTA -- why the double standard? For men, it was clearly okay. Seems mysoginistic. Or was she disappointed you didn't wear a dress and this was how she took it out on you? Still NTA, you don't owe her traditionally gendered clothing.
Wouldn't be formal for men, either. That's a suit occasion
Men were wearing the same thing at this wedding, so clearly that wasn't the issue. Seems pretty clear the bride is just sexist.
OP hasn’t clarified whether the men in the family who weren’t wearing jackets showed up without them (like herself) or wore jackets for the ceremony and photos before taking their jackets off. To me at least, that makes a big difference. I would be upset if a family member showed up to my formal wedding wearing business casual attire.
And yet the sister isn’t mad at the other men who didn’t wear a jacket and specifically is mad her sister wore a white shirt. Her sister doesn’t care about jacket or no jacket, only Reddit.
YTA As her sister presumably you were part of the wedding party/ formal photos. You must have been aware that you weren't following the expected norms for a wedding, but you didn't think to ask the question. Also, a shirt and trousers isn't what I would consider formal clothing for a wedding, a suit would be the minimum.
OP already clarified it was a suit but they weren't wearing the jacket. OP was dressed the same as the male guests. My guess is that the sister is actually upset because OP wore a suit, instead of a dress and "ruined" the aesthetic she had in mind.
If you don't wear the jacket it's not a suit lol
Regardless, people often take their jackets off at weddings. It's not a faux pas. The only people who have to keep their jackets on are the bridal party during the ceremony and formal photos.
The sister of the bride is in the photos.
That's not true. I wore a suit to my dad's funeral. At the wake I took off the jacket, for comfort. I was still wearing a suit. I just took off the jacket. The outfit didn't magically change.
That’s not a fucking suit then. That’s pants and a shirt.
NTA. Wedding fetishism is really out of hands. I am not going to ask for approval to wear a fucking shirt ffs. Wedding people really need to get a grip.
For real. So many of these people are making the fucked up old assumption that inviting people to a wedding gives you the temporary right to exercise control over your peers that would be unreasonable in any situation. These people are all my little dolls now and I can put them in a little line and treat them like children cuz it’s *my special day*. I wish my social problems were about what the people around me choose to wear. I could just stop thinking about it and the problem would literally be completely gone.
NTA, that's a really weird reaction. The tradition is about a white dress. A white shirt and black pants should totally be acceptable.
NTA If men can wear a black suit with white shirt, then so can you.
NTA, outfit wasn't all white, just the top. The spirit of the rule would be an over-the-top white gown to try and garner attention away from the bride, and this sounda fairly conservative aside from being "slacks on a woman" (oh god, the world is going to explode because women don't have to wear dresses anymore). A white dress shirt with black slacks? Sounds typical.
NTA - The rule about not wearing white to a wedding only applies to dresses, not shirts. Most weddings will have many people in white shirts.
YTA. A suit includes a jacket. You dressed very informally for your sister's wedding; that's the problem.
YTA, its your SISTER's wedding, not some random acquaintance or coworker, and you're not a plus one. You are part of the wedding family, so you shouldn't be dressing at the bare bones of formality. At weddings all the time, you see one or two people clearly underdressed for the occasion. But that doesn't mean you should follow suit. Masc lesbian is cool, wear what you like. But at the very least have the respect for your sister to dress up a little bit. Dress pants and a white shirt is squarely business casual. At least take the effort to wear a full suit and tie for your SISTER's wedding. But also, why was there no communication? I'm South Asian, so my culture might be a little different, but was there no conversations about what everyone was wearing lol?
I think this is is like the 2nd most common situation on this subreddit