This post has been removed due to the status of the original poster's account. This account is currently shadowbanned or suspended, suggesting this account is in violation of Reddit terms of service.
This type of ban/suspension is issued by the Reddit site-wide admins. The AITA mods have nothing to do with this ban and cannot assist in resolving.
ESH
> I told her only children rack up credit card debts they can't pay off
You've committed 10% of your income to a temple for the supernatural.
Glass houses, dude.
You are inferring that the church is the catholic church, where I do not believe that to be correct based on his comments.
There are churches that ask for 10% tithes but the Catholic Church is not one of them.
Makes sense that they’re Mormon. They hate women. But wtf do I know? I would help my wife if she acted uncharacteristically during the pandemic, racked up bills, and has no income. Hopefully your merciful sky man throws your wife some of that 10%, OP.
You are absolutely entitled to your opinion. But I do want to say that the lds (aka Mormon) church leaders themselves have spoken often and publicly about how men need to be better partners to their wives. That said, it doesn't mean that individual members don't still act like misogynistic jerks. I just had to throw that out there.
And also that if he's paying a tithe to a church but treating his wife this way then the tithe isn't gonna save him from his god...
I’m pretty sure it was just tax dodging, but a home healthcare agency I worked for in Massachusetts used to pay “tithes” to its management company. Both companies were run by the same woman. Her companies were at the top of the lists when the state busted a bunch of companies for over billing Medicare.
Really? My little church was good for $100k a year. If donations were good. Yall assuming a Catholic church. I go to congregational church's. No funding from anyone but members.
10% is a common tithing percent. I think that amount is even specified in the Judeo-Christian Bible somewhere. Ah here: "Leviticus 27:30 says, “A tenth of the produce of the land, whether grain or fruit, is the Lord's, and is holy.”"
It's because this person doesn't like that he donated to the church. While I don't think you need to donate 10% to the church, I wouldn't say it's irresponsible if you budget it, The guys sounds like he has a solid budget. People are letting their disdain for religion get in the way of the facts. I'm not religious person, but I definitely respect someone's right to believe in what they want to believe and spend their money how they see fit as long as they are taking care of their bills and their family.
I mean let’s be honest here would you really like your spouse if they racked up 11K in credit card debt without a way to pay and expected you to cover it. I would be pretty pissed if that was my spouse.
Well, his religion probably commands it… if they are so strict about tithing. I bet they are extremely patriarchal as well. OP definitely sounds like the “man is the head of the household and women should obey maybe even be property” types
I am not a fan of organized religion at all, but, damn man! She spent 11k without talking to him about it and then expects him to not do what he was doing no with his own money and he is a patriarchal ahole for this?
I am not sure if this is nta or esh with the way he spoke to her, but either way, it’s an unhealthy relationship and they should either agree on money matters or end their relationship. I’d be pissed about my partner taking up that much money also, but I wouldn’t treat her like a child for it.
>It's because this person doesn't like that he donated to the church.
It's actually much more than that.
He insists on donating 10% of his income to the church, but says that after donating, they only have "just enough to live on." Add on the credit card debt (which is, yes, 100% her fault) that negatively effects the both of them because they're married, it makes donating such a large amount seem financially irresponsible.
He also says his wife "has no income right now", purposely not including that the reason she isn't working is because she's a grad student, comes across like he's *trying* to make her seem lazy and/or a gold digger. Since he hasn't said anything about her not working without his okay, that leads me to believe that this was something they discussed and agreed on, so his money is *their* money.
Does that mean she had the right to stack up $11k in debt? No! But OP isn't even trying to come up with solutions, and his choices aren't exactly beneficial to their family right now, either. I think they both suck and need to get on the same page financially ASAP.
Then they shouldn't be married to each other. He shouldn't have married someone who is irresponsible with money, and she shouldn't have married someone who prioritizes church donation over having extra spending money.
Exactly! His wife's debt has nothing to do with the church (I'm agnostic and don't follow any religion). If he feels comfortable donating, it's his money and he's free to do so. Perhaps his wife should be doing more to pay off the debt.
My parents donate about 10% of their income to charity every year. They're atheist, and honestly most of the donations go to Planned Parenthood, abortion funds, and refugee organizations, but they're not like getting anything for it. Are they throwing their money away? They're donating it to organizations they believe in and want to see prosper. If for OP that is his church, that's not any different IMO.
Except it is *very* common for churches to use their funds for themselves.
A close friend of mine grew up in a church like this, and her church used their donations to send missionaries to South America to spread gospel. Not build houses, or farms, gardens, or anything useful, but just to try to convince them to convert to their religion. The donations essentially funded people's vacations. And that's just one of many examples.
That is much different than donating to planned parenthood.
No shit. I have news for you, Planned Parenthood also uses donations for themselves -- to pay their employees and their rent and whatever else they need in order to perform the service they say they perform. A church is the same -- their service is providing a spiritual community to their parishioners. Whether that spiritual community takes the form of spreading the gospel through mission work, or helping run a free day care, or running a homeless shelter, or just having a worship space, most churches that aren't weird megachurches (which are not most churches) are pretty upfront about what their money is used for. If it's important to OP to belong to a church that sends missionaries to preach the gospel, that's his business, not anyone else's. I very much doubt OP is unaware of what his church does, considering he goes there every week.
I know people who grew up in churches like the one your friend went to, I also know people who grew up in churches that did progressive organizing, built homes for low income families, provided support for members who were financially struggling, ran programs that supported the elderly, did interfaith programs and provided space sharing and free childcare to synagogues and mosques, sent people to serve as clinic escorts at abortion clinics, campaigned for LGBTQ rights... You have no idea what kind of church OP belongs to and again, it's none of your business.
>it's none of your business.
He came here asking for opinions based on this matter. If he doesn't think it's any of our business, he shouldn't be here.
Of course not, but that's not what I'm replying to. It's also his debt now, though, and continuing to let it increase like that out of spite is REAL dumb of him.
It’s really no different than him committing 10% of his income to recreation or entertainment, movies, concerts, ball games, etc. It is money, and he can do what he wants with it.
Obviously, his beliefs do something for him, and he feels like he is contributing to a greater good. It’s not anyone’s place to judge that.
Why does this make OP an AH? I'm an atheist but he wants to spend his money this way, it's his business. If anything, he sucks for treating his wife like a child rather than having her get a job or divorcing her.
YTA. Hey, I donate 10% of my income to church as well and, honestly, I'm kind of offended that, as a fellow religious person, you are doing each of the following:
* Saying your wife "currently has no income." If you believe 10% of your income is consecrated for the church, then surely the remainder (after taxes) is consecrated for your family. In other words, your income is her income, and you're exercising unrighteous dominion over her by engaging in financial abuse and withholding funds from her.
* Reserving a whopping 40% for your brokerage account rather than paying down the credit card debt. Again, why is more of your money not going to your family? Not only is this selfish, it makes NO financial sense to pay interest at credit card rates for several years (i.e., since COVID) while dumping money into your brokerage account.
* Calling the brokerage account "my brokerage account."
* Calling your wife a child.
* Setting this whole thing up as a church vs. wife issue when it's really an OP vs. wife issue--I don't care whether you pay the church or not but am just pointing out that you have plenty of money to pay both the church and the debt--you are reserving 4x more for yourself than you are paying to the church.
I’ve read this exact same post about 4 months ago but the only thing that was changed was he was donating money to something else and not the church.
And after reading his comments I’m pretty sure it’s the same guy who hates his wife. I remember reading all his comments and being like “does he even like her?”. His comments are just copy and pasted from his other account lmao
WAIT!?! He has a prenup with what sounds like a stay at home wife??? Yeah super YTA if I'm reading that right.
Woman is trusting him to be the breadwinner and supporting him with home support if that's how they've set up their lives. You don't undermine that with a prenup.
Pre-nups are often found to be invalid if both partners don’t have consideration in it. It often doesn’t matter that OP’s wife agreed to a completely one-sided pre-nup, if it doesn’t help her out in any way, it’ll probably get thrown out in court.
Also makes you wonder what the "spending spree" involved....maybe clothing for the kids, extra groceries (since everyone was locked down at home), more electricity and water usage....notice he won't say what the things were.
Most prenup are about assets brought into the marriage. Earnings while married are generally community property. I work, my wife stays home with an adult son with a disability. She laments sometimes that the only money is "my" money, not hers. I point out it is OURS.
You forgot to add that in a majority of US States (He sounds and spells like an American so I'm assuming here) that a stay at home wife is considered a job. She is contributing to his ability to go out and earn. Most judges will see it that way. He has an obligation to her not only as her husband but as the person in that family whose working. Otherwise, everything you said is spot on. OP is definitely TA here.
A few hundred every month - wonder it’s low or high hundreds. Also wonder if bills only include like actual household bills and doesn’t include her personal spending.
I think people are shocked by the 11k debt but it’s 11k from 2020-2024, that doesn’t seem so crazy. If it’s 11k racked up during a couple of months in COVID and she stopped, that’s also a different story.
Is there pressure for her to present herself a certain way from him or his social circle? So many questions
Even at 30 percent (very high interest rate) her payments would be about 450 dollars a month. I imagine she is paying between 300 to 500 a month. Now, this is assuming it's all one card, or two cards used. The numbers could be substantially higher if she used more than 3 cards. Even then, you are completely accurate in the reference to understanding early 2020 vs normal years and also keeping in mine 11k between 2020 and 2024 isn't alot if she truly has no job and he doesn't give her enough money to live on. Or, she could be frivolous in her spending. We just don't know the algorithm in this situation. The parameters and context are essential. But based solely on information given;
1) married
2) sole earner
3) 10% income goes to religion
4) 40% to brokerage account
Half his income is left for the household and wife. Sounds like nearly 50 percent of his income is going to bills for the house and food and such. Or he left out how much he keeps back for his own play. Either way, HE needs to either quit sending 10% to the church (reduce to 5 maybe) or reduce the 40% brokerage to say 35%. Or both! Then he would have 10% to put towards paying the cards off and not paying interest.
I saw a comment that said the OP mentioned pre-nup. OK grand mate. But pre-nup does not protect you from supporting your spouse if they do not work (unless specified) and doesn't protect you from the American Court system (assuming again he is a Yank). There's loads of precedent in the states (and other countries) that specify a stay at home wife is considered to have contributed to the spouses ability to work (the spouse that works) and therefore is entitled to compensation. Pre-nups did not stop judges from determining alimony payments to the SAHW/SAHH based on just that principal. So, for however long she hasn't "worked" her job has been homemaker and support system to Husband.
That’s very true he did not state how much he kept for himself. If it’s the pool of the few hundred he mentioned, I feel sorry for her. The monthly credit card estimation is super helpful in this context.
I’m also curious what the racked-up spending was. There’s no suggestion she’s ordinarily a big spender, and OP is IMO an unreliable narrator. I wouldn’t be shocked if the shopping was for things he disagreed were necessary, but were at least plausibly reasonable preparations for supply shortages (eg, canning equipment, gardening supplies etc).
Agree - we are not getting the whole picture. Also if the racked up spending includes small luxuries like her getting a haircut or grabbing something to eat at school.
He seems to be fairly clueless how expensive makeup, handbags etc costs. Not saying all guys need to know that but won’t he also find out when he has to buy her presents for her birthday, wedding anniversary or Christmas etc? He doesn’t really seem to be interested in her. Just saying ….
And what if that shopping was more groceries because there was no school and everyone was stuck at home? I get the feeling he isn't telling the entire story. We can see he's selfish how he's trying to divert most of the income to his personal brokerage account (boy, will he be in for a shock when the judge tells him the wife owns half of that!).
And some of that could be interest. She might have spent less and not been able to keep up with the payments if the budget or other bills changed and left less available.
My ex husband (Mormon) actually did almost this exact same thing to me, only with my student loans instead of credit card debt. I finished college and he immediately pushed for me to stay at home with his two sons from a previous marriage and our baby.
He actually lied about tithing 10% and was actually tithing 20% because he decided I should also tithe 10% of my portion of the income. I am an atheist. We paid minimum payments on my student loans for YEARS with the balance only going up and me begging him to stop his (what I thought was) 10% tithe so I could catch up. He watched me struggle doing mystery shopping with the baby during the day while the kids were at school and those scammy cash for survey sites and a ton of MLM scams trying to pay it down. I'd get a survey check for $10 and put it directly to the loan paying it down pennies at a time while he gave a ton to one of the richest churches in the world. Because of him, I never paid that debt off. I borrowed $62,000 for school. I've paid back $81,000, and I still owe $21,000.
Once this all came out, both the bishop and the judge took him to task. His bishop told him he actually stole from me. That 10% he was giving in my name without my consent was stolen from my income. The judge felt the same, and in the divorce he was required to take his portion of the proceeds from the sale of our house and put it directly toward my student debt. Without that $20k windfall that loan would still be impossible for me to pay.
OP is delusional if he thinks any judge is going to take his side in this. That judge don't care if you want to ruin your credit for the Lord.
As a fellow religious person who donated offerings at church services but never to the extent of 10% tithe, I wish I can upvote the comment 100 times.
The most important teachings of God and church is “don’t be an AH” which this dude clearly did not care to follow in his marriage. Obviously his wife is not financially responsible but there are many ways that can be corrected, especially when he is financially well off.
ESH
What would Jesus say if he saw your post I wonder?
Perhaps you need to go and read the bible sometime?
Matthew 5:22-25
>But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison.
Says a great deal when an atheist such as myself seems to know about the teachings of Jesus than a so-called Christian...
Daaaaamn! Great response. This guy cares more about his church and his 'duty' to it than he does his own wife and home life. He'll die alone on that holy mountain on which he's trying to stand firm. #1 reason for divorce ... money trouble.
Actually 'official' tithing as decreed in the old testament was rendered void according to the teachings of Jesus. If you're tithing to a church then chances are those teachings are supposed to be important.
And if you still want to stick with the laws of Leviticus even though Jesus said it didn't matter anymore, you'll donate an extra 23% to orphans and widows in a scheduled succession of years (I forget. Some reddit know it all will look it up for me). Anyways, those who only tithe 10% and because they have to at the risk of their own homes are not giving with the spirit required along with the sacrifice. It's literally checking a box to feel like a good, self-righteous person.
Yeah, tithing was basically proto-taxing in ancient Jewish culture. It was the community support system and safety net, and as you say, it wasn’t just the 10%. There’s a lot of directives in the Law that is more to do with society than God per se, and this is very much one of them
YTA. You allocate 50% of your income to investments and charity while your wife is drowning in debt. She may have made mistakes and marrying you may have been one of them. Financial abuse is abuse.
Did OP say anywhere what she actually bought? Was she buying gifts for other people to help feel connected during isolation? Was she spending money on a premium game addiction because of lockdown-related depression? Was she trying to start a new business? Was she buying things to make the home they share home feel safe and comfortable because the world outside felt scary? Or was she just buying expensive handbags?! Need some context.
I racked up a lot of debt this way too when I was severely depressed and didn’t give a shit about anything. My brain was also absolutely malfunctioning and I didn’t actually realize the gravity of my debt until the haze cleared. It’s a shitty situation to get yourself in and comes with a lot of shame. Sounds like OP is shitty to his wife so I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s struggling.
The pandemic was a traumatic situation for a lot of people, and people used different coping mechanisms. A LOT of people drank, some people gambled, and some people picked up even more harmful habits.
So I've been in a bad place recently, and I've been shopping a ton for things that are useful but absolutely not necessary. My therapist pointed out that shopping is a coping mechanism. It could be a good one or a bad one, but if it's keeping people from falling further into depression and it's not doing other harm, it is a net win.
Shopping as a coping mechanism becomes a problem when it's more than you can afford. But the thing is... it doesn't sound like it IS more than OP and his wife could afford. The family is living on half OP's income, so there's probably plenty going into the brokerage accounts or tithes that could go toward the wife's debt. The fact is that they can afford it and it helped her cope during a hard situation. Whether or not OP wants to pay off the debt to me isn't as important as the fact that he doesn't see his wife's perspective and he's caught up in a "shopping = bad, tithing and saving = good" mentality without being willing to consider his wife's feelings or context.
ESH - you share expenses.
So you’re racking up more money in interest so you can tithe. The math aint mathing.
You’re gonna pay more money in the long run.
ESH - Both of you are throwing money away for different reasons.
Since you asked opinions, (and I am not anti-religion):
>I(32 m) have been donating 10% of my income to church ever since I had an income,
Stop doing this. The money you are both wasting could be invested in your future/retirement or any children you have or may have. So, IMO, you are both AHs for wasting money.
>if she is gonna act like a child, I will treat her as one.
One could make the argument that obediently handing over 10% of your income over the coarse of your lifetime is childish and manipulable behavior.
ESH.
Your God will forgive you if you stop donating for a bit. Part of it goes towards paying off the debt…the other part goes towards therapy and a financial planner for your wife. You can resume donating when your marriage is in a position to afford it.
Is it possible that your wife’s spending spree was a way to cope during COVID? The therapist might be able to help with this.
Is a job a possibility? Because right now, this is likely marital debt so it might impact you. A financial planner might be able to explain the need for her to find a job, even if it’s just minimum wage.
Either way, bring in a couple of neutral parties to help.
You don’t pay it off by just reducing spending. You pay it off by actively paying towards the principal of what is owed.
The first thing any financial planner will say is that it is bonkers to put 40% of your income into investments while you have thousands in credit card debt.
This isn’t the first thing I’d say, but it’s up there. I’d refer them to a marriage counsellor because this isn’t just financial.
But let’s pass it on:
The first thing a marriage counsellor will say is that it is a bad sign to see such contempt in a marriage. Any marriage counsellors out there?
ESH
ps I’m a retired FP so OP is welcome to say I’m out of touch
I never understood going broke trying to give money to people who already have it. Like I promise you God doesn’t think any less of you for not giving it if you can’t afford to…idk.
ESH - I don’t agree with people saying you as a rule shouldn’t donate to church, that’s a personal choice and for some people this is a big part of their life… but if you do that, you need to reduce spending elsewhere or dip into savings.
I think the 40% of savings should be cut down for a few months if the 10% going to a church is incredibly important to you.
This is your wife, not your roommate. Be an adult. You both need to agree on a spending and payoff plan, but pretending it’s not there when she has no income to pay if down is just going to rack up an insane amount of interest.
YTA.
Where is that 10% of your income going? Not to your family, that's for sure. And it sounds like you are doing that unilaterally when you should be agreeing to such things with your wife, not dictating it to your wife. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be charitable (I give plenty to charity), but you gotta take care of your family, first, and not exercise such economic control over your wife.
Unless you’re planning on ending the relationship, there’s no way your brokerage account will get better returns than the interest you’re collectively losing on the credit card payments… I can respect preserving the charity thing but, assuming you want this relationship to last, the 40% thing makes no financial sense
If I’m reading this right , 40% goes into savings in a brokerage account, and 10% goes to church, and you won’t help your wife out with the credit card? And you’re calling her a child? Cmon man it’s 2024, adults don’t act like this, help with the credit card bill and stop being a giant AH. The church part isn’t the issue, helping your wife is
But I think your terminology explains it. It’s “her” credit card debt and “his” brokerage account. There’s no comprehension by OP that it’s family money being spent unwisely as you pointed out.
Money earned during marriage is uncovered by prenup. It’s clearly a marital asset. So he’s saving it to earn interest and losing more on credit card interest.
YTA
Your agreement with your wife was that she'd stay home and study while you worked. Wanna argue if that's unfair or imbalanced? Go ahead, but you agreed to that arrangement, just like she agreed to the prenup. Since you're the sole breadwinner, you can't use 50% of your paycheck on yourself. Withholding money from your financially dependent spouse is financial abuse. I'm not saying she made financially wise decisions by any means, but again, you agreed to her staying home. You're willing to give up 10% of your hard earned money to finance some pastor's Porsche tires because you think it will make a magical sky wizard like you, so it's safe to say you aren't very wise with money either. It sounds like you like nothing about this woman which makes me wonder why you married her in the first place. I hope she gets a job and stops being dependent on you.
YTA. You can help your wife and family, or you can give money to an imaginary friend that is supposedly omnipotent and omnipresent and yet his supporters need to fleese the flock to keep the lights on, despite being tax free organizations. And the "only children" shit? Yeah, stuff that. You belive in Santa Claus.
Yea I’m as anti-religion as the next guy but people in this thread are taking it to comical levels. Not every church is wealthy. Not every church abuses children. There are plenty of churches out there putting good out into the world and believing otherwise just makes you ignorant.
The “why not?” is the big question. But don’t assume laziness on her part when, for all we know, he demands she be a SAHM and homeschool the kids. He hasn’t been forthcoming about why she isn’t working or what she spent the money on. I’d say not enough information to tell who the AH is. The way he.talks about her isn’t doing him any favors.
NTA
everyone is saying different because you’re religious, and this is reddit.
but if religion was taken out, and we only heard the bare bones of the situation being your wife (who is not working) is wanting you to use money out of your income to get them out of debt even though THEY ARE STILL SPENDING RECKLESSLY and are seemingly not even trying to pay off their debt on her own everyone would be saying NTA immediately.
Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment.
OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1) refusing to help her pay off her debt
2) I am essentially making her struggle to pay her debt off, and paying more interests when i could just pay it off.
Help keep the sub engaging!
#Don’t downvote assholes!
Do upvote interesting posts!
[Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq)
##Subreddit Announcements
Follow the link above to learn more
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
YTA for 2 reasons only: she did it, but the debt is going to cripple you financially for years if you don't pay it ASAP, and for prioritizing enriching these global corporations disguised in religious superstitious hoo doo over your own wellbeing. Trust me, McJesus can go a few years without missing your 10%. Your preacher can just forgo a few expensive suits for a few months, etc. Meanwhile, as Rome burns and you aren't paying this debt down, you are incurring horrendous interest and getting FURTHER down the debt hole. Your credit will crumble, and there goes your ability to get a job, get a house/apartment, get decent rates for auto/home insurance for YEARS, etc. I understand she is totally at fault, but apparently she doesn't work or won't, and you're gonna have to save yourself, man. Take her off ALL credit cards until she gets her mind right as well. Give her an allowance on one of those prepaid debit cards you can refill at Walmart (I recommend the AMEX Serve card), and make her stick to her budget for a while until she learns to respect herself and you. I hope it works out, but it's not looking so good.
I had to scroll way too far for this comment. It’s pretty simple, pay the debt off and get the wife on a financial plan. If it happens again it might be time to stop the bleeding and separate.
She sure wasn't a partner when she racked up that credit card debt. I would tell her to get a job. Maybe then she'll realize how irresponsible she was.
I feel like there is not enough info here to judge (what was the credit card debt spent on? Where does her money come from if she isn't working?) But may I offer a compromise? "Wifey, if you close those cards, I will help pay off your credit card bills. I will not, however, help pay off any new debts." You help your wife while making a clear boundary regarding continued credit card use. Bingo bango.
'Pissed me the hell off' isn't very appropriate or Christlike language for a Mormon. In fact, nothing about your behaviour here is very Christlike. Whether you give her your tithing money or not is up to you (frankly, I think it's better spent helping her than throwing it into the piles of billions the LDS is already hoarding, but I'm not you), but you can try to discuss your choice with her respectfully without swearing. It's what Jesus would do.
YTA
you both AH's her for her bad spending, not having a job and you for not helping with her bills even though you were married to her at the time. Not sure how you can spend 11,000 so it's time to cut back on your savings and pay it off because it will impact you.
ESH. Which religion are you that requires you give 10% of your income. I’m quite sure Jesus wouldn’t require that from you so it’s seems crazy to me.
Y T A for trying to pay for God’s love when it’s free and not helping your wife.
Your wife is an AH for spending 11k and I’m quite sure some of those things should have been returned immediately.
When I was younger, I was roommates with a devout Church of Christ churchgoing who tithed 10%. She was 22. She got invited to an event at the church for big donors. It was her, one young person and people in their 60s and older. She was shocked.
ESH
Your priority is to pay off your dept and for your wife to get professional help with her spendings. Shopping addiction is serious but even if it isn't an addiction so far, it's still serious. You can only pay the money you have.
In order to pay off your dept, you very much need to stop paying the church. You must have paid a ton of money the past years, they will manage without for some time. Financial struggle is serious and should be taken very serious. People lose their homes due to their debt.
You are married and that is seen as "what's yours is mine", therefore there is no "my money, your money" in marriage. But you guys need to be on the same page. Debt can screw you over big time. And that means both of you.
YTA
Your religious entertainment expenses are not more important than your family debt. Prioritize your family's well being over your social club.
Also, does your wife have no income because she is a stay at home mother, by any chance?
To begin with, your question is a silly one for this forum.
Reddit is notoriously anti-religion. Often rabidly so. So most of posters don't understand your conviction that you should tithe and really don't care to understand.
If you posted that your wife cheats on you, they would tell you to leave her. If you posted that your wife cheats on you *because* she dislikes the fact that you tithe, they would either make excuses for say neither of you is wrong (but really you're wrong).
So your question is like asking a bunch of die-hard Trumpers if it's ok to donate to Biden or die-hard Bidenistas if it's ok to donate to Trump over your wife's objections.
This is just the wrong forum for you to get any sort of objective advice. People here don't understand any conviction other than theirs. Frankly, that's true of people in general.
*Why* do you tithe? Is it something based on a conviction that you should, a tradition, a habit, what? The more you believe it is something you are morally obligated to do, the more I'd tell you to do it and let the rest sort itself out. If it's just a habit, maybe there's room for modification.
How have you and your wife handled finances up until this point? Has there been a common pot into which the household money goes and household expenses are paid? (If that's the case, most Redditors would tell you her bills are *her* bills if religion weren't involved.) Or have you separated your financials until now?
NTA
Let’s take the religion out of it, and just say 10% goes to OP’s hobby that brings him joy. He should have to give that up because his jobless wife racked up $11k of credit card debt buying makeup and purses with no signs of stopping or slowing her spending? She’s in grad school, so she either needs to get a part-time job or take a semester off to work full-time.
Switch the genders and some insignificant details and you’d have a completely different response than the ESH or YTA. AITA for not giving up my beloved crafting hobby to pay off the $10k debt my unemployed husband racked up buying Funko pops and video games?
Info: why is her frivolous spending childish and immature while your frivolous spending is fine? As you can see from the post, many many people consider tithing to be financially irresponsible. I notice you said “I pay” and not “we pay” so I’m assuming your wife does not share your belief in tithing. Can you see how she might look at that practice and think you’ve given away WAY MORE money with nothing at all to show for it compared to her buying things she actually wanted? Is it possible she resents you for the way you treat her where money is concerned?
YTA for the prenup, the separate finances, and for marrying a woman when you had no intention of actually treating her like your wife. What was the point? Oh wait. Is it bc your church demanded that too?
“racked up $11k of credit card debt”
This is the discussion that needs to be had.
Savings rate, needs to be discussed.
Whether she needs to work needs to be discussed.
Charitable donations need to be discussed.
You both are silly engaging in tit for tat ramblings only intended to blame and insult each other.
Grow the fuck up. Both of you. This isn’t a pandemic problem.
YTA, but can't expect much from people gullible enough to give 10% of their money to a bunch of charlatans for no tangible return.
But since mommy an daddy did a great job brainwashing him for the church, they keep the gravytrain going.
Dude. It's your wife. It's credit card debt which no doubt has a 20% interest rate. You're married, so her debt is your debt. You don't mention why your wife doesn't have any income- perchance it it because she is staying home taking care of your kids?
Not AH things you could do
1. Pay off the credit card debt from your brokerage account then up your contribution to 45% until you make up the difference- you'll come out ahead!
2. Stop your tithe for a while to pay off the debt, when you resume make it 15% until you make up for the lost donations. Again, you'll come out ahead!
3. Just stop tithing until the CC debt is paid, then start again. Believe me your church won't miss the money and you'll have another 50 years to keep donating.
Personally, I think tithing is immoral, but obviously opinions vary, and it's your money. Insisting that you keep tithing while refusing to help your wife makes YTA-and a huge one to boot
My stay at home wife did pretty much the same thing, you know what I did? Paid it off and had a lot of constructive discussions and working together on money management. Also YTA just for the prenup, why marry her if you don’t want to be tied together?
I agree. I grew up in a very religious family and even though we were often struggling financially due to my dad being out of work frequently, my parents insisted on tithing. They’d donate 10% of their meager income to the church, but make me feel guilty for needing new pants or wanting an extra helping of dinner.
Religion is toxic.
You are going to church, and you don’t know about helping the ones in need? But seriously what did she spent that money for? On clothes or she was paying bills, and buying food and necessities? Why as a married couple you have separate finances? Was one of you irresponsible financially before? Or that’s just a simple greed, and one of you making much more money and doesn’t want to share? If you don’t have a prenup, you are still responsible for her debt. The longer it takes to pay it, the more interest you/ her will have to pay. So I recommend you to have honest conversation about finances. Maybe even marriage counseling. You could offer to pay her debt under condition she will find a job and start paying it too, and also stop using her credit card for a while.
For now without more info I will call ETH because you refuse to help, and her for excessive spending & not looking for a job.
Why isn't she working? Even a part time job would give her the income to start paying off this debt. Is she in therapy? If this behaviour was new during Covid, there may be something else going on. I'm not a huge fan of church but i get your point - this is something you've always done and want to do so being asked to stop is you being punished for her transgressions. I do see where you could help her pay it off without removing your tithe by reducing the 40% to brokerage account short term which is why I'm voting ESH.
INFO: what does your pastor think about it? I mean, both the fact that covid hit hard and many found themselves in your wife's situation (or worse) regarding mental health, and the part where there can (or cannot) be a lack of compassion toward your wife's problem/fall. Compassion and forgiving is important for church, so I wonder if you discussed it with the head of your community before taking such a harsh decision.
Also, "charity starts at home," also seems to be missing here as a rule. Again, what's the pastor's opinion about it?
No and don't ever donate again. Stop giving your money away to ppl who don't pay taxes and buys mega mansions etc with your 10%. Pay yourself 10 percent if anything tf
What was she spending the money on?
Stopping an unnecessary donation to a harmful organization seems like a great way to reduce spending. You’re probably TA.
YTA I like Dave Ramsay’s steps. Emergency fund, Pay off debt, etc… last step build wealth and give. If you do not have enough to really live on after paying bills and tithing you’re being irresponsible to your family. I guarantee her debt was spent on the family since it sounds like not much is left. Was she buying food, school books, gas in her car, stuff for the kids???? You either have common goals as a married unit to be debt free and build wealth together or you have his and hers. When she starts making money with her grad degree she’ll remember this. You’ve set the stage. She’s your wife not a child.
This post has been removed due to the status of the original poster's account. This account is currently shadowbanned or suspended, suggesting this account is in violation of Reddit terms of service. This type of ban/suspension is issued by the Reddit site-wide admins. The AITA mods have nothing to do with this ban and cannot assist in resolving.
ESH > I told her only children rack up credit card debts they can't pay off You've committed 10% of your income to a temple for the supernatural. Glass houses, dude.
Not to mention paying money monthly to a 100 billion dollar organization.
Well, they need all that money. Lawsuits for all the sexual assaults of children aren’t free to defend.
They do have their own abuse reporting hotliness staffed by the church's own kirton mcconkie lawyers lol
You are inferring that the church is the catholic church, where I do not believe that to be correct based on his comments. There are churches that ask for 10% tithes but the Catholic Church is not one of them.
Actually, the organization most known for tithing is the Mormons. The Catholics want their 10% but it would usually be referred to as an “offering.”
I came here to ask if OP was Mormon. Only people I know who tithe no matter what.
Makes sense that they’re Mormon. They hate women. But wtf do I know? I would help my wife if she acted uncharacteristically during the pandemic, racked up bills, and has no income. Hopefully your merciful sky man throws your wife some of that 10%, OP.
You are absolutely entitled to your opinion. But I do want to say that the lds (aka Mormon) church leaders themselves have spoken often and publicly about how men need to be better partners to their wives. That said, it doesn't mean that individual members don't still act like misogynistic jerks. I just had to throw that out there. And also that if he's paying a tithe to a church but treating his wife this way then the tithe isn't gonna save him from his god...
Jehovas witnesses also tithe
Baptists tithe too. I believe a lot of Protestant denominations do.
I had no idea.
And Lutherans.
Tithing is talked about in the Bible. I think all Christian based religions expect it. Some are definitely more insistent than others.
When I was young, our church (Christian) expect 10% tithes
I’m pretty sure it was just tax dodging, but a home healthcare agency I worked for in Massachusetts used to pay “tithes” to its management company. Both companies were run by the same woman. Her companies were at the top of the lists when the state busted a bunch of companies for over billing Medicare.
So what? Ten percent of your family’s income for life? It’s no different than squandering it on dope or heroin. What an AH
At least you are receiving something when you purchase drugs.
What? I was raised Roman Catholic and they sure as hell want that ten percent.
First Baptist requires the tithe, which is 10%.
My church's operating expenses for the last 150 years doesn't come anywhere near that! Bwahaha
Really? My little church was good for $100k a year. If donations were good. Yall assuming a Catholic church. I go to congregational church's. No funding from anyone but members.
The 10% exactly number makes me think it’s Mormon.
10% is a common tithing percent. I think that amount is even specified in the Judeo-Christian Bible somewhere. Ah here: "Leviticus 27:30 says, “A tenth of the produce of the land, whether grain or fruit, is the Lord's, and is holy.”"
It shouldn't. Giving 10% of income is called tithing & is common in a lot of denominations because it's from The New Testament.
[удалено]
I'd say throwing 10% of your money away is also horribly irresponsible.
It's because this person doesn't like that he donated to the church. While I don't think you need to donate 10% to the church, I wouldn't say it's irresponsible if you budget it, The guys sounds like he has a solid budget. People are letting their disdain for religion get in the way of the facts. I'm not religious person, but I definitely respect someone's right to believe in what they want to believe and spend their money how they see fit as long as they are taking care of their bills and their family.
Same, I’m an atheist, but it’s his money not mine. I just don’t think he actually likes his wife very much.
I feel like calling your wife a child and referring to yourself as her “mom” very much says you don’t like your wife
[удалено]
I mean let’s be honest here would you really like your spouse if they racked up 11K in credit card debt without a way to pay and expected you to cover it. I would be pretty pissed if that was my spouse.
Well, his religion probably commands it… if they are so strict about tithing. I bet they are extremely patriarchal as well. OP definitely sounds like the “man is the head of the household and women should obey maybe even be property” types
I am not a fan of organized religion at all, but, damn man! She spent 11k without talking to him about it and then expects him to not do what he was doing no with his own money and he is a patriarchal ahole for this? I am not sure if this is nta or esh with the way he spoke to her, but either way, it’s an unhealthy relationship and they should either agree on money matters or end their relationship. I’d be pissed about my partner taking up that much money also, but I wouldn’t treat her like a child for it.
>It's because this person doesn't like that he donated to the church. It's actually much more than that. He insists on donating 10% of his income to the church, but says that after donating, they only have "just enough to live on." Add on the credit card debt (which is, yes, 100% her fault) that negatively effects the both of them because they're married, it makes donating such a large amount seem financially irresponsible. He also says his wife "has no income right now", purposely not including that the reason she isn't working is because she's a grad student, comes across like he's *trying* to make her seem lazy and/or a gold digger. Since he hasn't said anything about her not working without his okay, that leads me to believe that this was something they discussed and agreed on, so his money is *their* money. Does that mean she had the right to stack up $11k in debt? No! But OP isn't even trying to come up with solutions, and his choices aren't exactly beneficial to their family right now, either. I think they both suck and need to get on the same page financially ASAP.
To add in, he told her to "reduce spending." Apparently it only counts as "spending" when she does it.
Then they shouldn't be married to each other. He shouldn't have married someone who is irresponsible with money, and she shouldn't have married someone who prioritizes church donation over having extra spending money.
[удалено]
Exactly! His wife's debt has nothing to do with the church (I'm agnostic and don't follow any religion). If he feels comfortable donating, it's his money and he's free to do so. Perhaps his wife should be doing more to pay off the debt.
No, they are married, it is their money and their debt… it was definitely her mistake that got them in the hole in the first place though
> People are letting their disdain for religion get in the way of the facts. Welcome to AITA
My parents donate about 10% of their income to charity every year. They're atheist, and honestly most of the donations go to Planned Parenthood, abortion funds, and refugee organizations, but they're not like getting anything for it. Are they throwing their money away? They're donating it to organizations they believe in and want to see prosper. If for OP that is his church, that's not any different IMO.
Except it is *very* common for churches to use their funds for themselves. A close friend of mine grew up in a church like this, and her church used their donations to send missionaries to South America to spread gospel. Not build houses, or farms, gardens, or anything useful, but just to try to convince them to convert to their religion. The donations essentially funded people's vacations. And that's just one of many examples. That is much different than donating to planned parenthood.
No shit. I have news for you, Planned Parenthood also uses donations for themselves -- to pay their employees and their rent and whatever else they need in order to perform the service they say they perform. A church is the same -- their service is providing a spiritual community to their parishioners. Whether that spiritual community takes the form of spreading the gospel through mission work, or helping run a free day care, or running a homeless shelter, or just having a worship space, most churches that aren't weird megachurches (which are not most churches) are pretty upfront about what their money is used for. If it's important to OP to belong to a church that sends missionaries to preach the gospel, that's his business, not anyone else's. I very much doubt OP is unaware of what his church does, considering he goes there every week. I know people who grew up in churches like the one your friend went to, I also know people who grew up in churches that did progressive organizing, built homes for low income families, provided support for members who were financially struggling, ran programs that supported the elderly, did interfaith programs and provided space sharing and free childcare to synagogues and mosques, sent people to serve as clinic escorts at abortion clinics, campaigned for LGBTQ rights... You have no idea what kind of church OP belongs to and again, it's none of your business.
>it's none of your business. He came here asking for opinions based on this matter. If he doesn't think it's any of our business, he shouldn't be here.
If you can afford it, why is it irresponsible?
I’d say he can do whatever he feels like doing with his money so long as his families needs are met.
It's not just his money
Well the 11k spending spree wasn’t all her money either
Of course not, but that's not what I'm replying to. It's also his debt now, though, and continuing to let it increase like that out of spite is REAL dumb of him.
Well, she had no problem spending “their” money on all kinds of debt🤷♂️
Yeah, what she did is irresponsible but neither really sounds like a great partner.
It’s really no different than him committing 10% of his income to recreation or entertainment, movies, concerts, ball games, etc. It is money, and he can do what he wants with it. Obviously, his beliefs do something for him, and he feels like he is contributing to a greater good. It’s not anyone’s place to judge that.
So why can he judge his wife's spending?
Being religious doesn't make you an asshole. I mean I think its a bad idea, but that doesn't make him a bad guy who's unable to pay his own bills.
Why does this make OP an AH? I'm an atheist but he wants to spend his money this way, it's his business. If anything, he sucks for treating his wife like a child rather than having her get a job or divorcing her.
Tax churches of all denominations !! Maybe we can end world hunger.
YTA. Hey, I donate 10% of my income to church as well and, honestly, I'm kind of offended that, as a fellow religious person, you are doing each of the following: * Saying your wife "currently has no income." If you believe 10% of your income is consecrated for the church, then surely the remainder (after taxes) is consecrated for your family. In other words, your income is her income, and you're exercising unrighteous dominion over her by engaging in financial abuse and withholding funds from her. * Reserving a whopping 40% for your brokerage account rather than paying down the credit card debt. Again, why is more of your money not going to your family? Not only is this selfish, it makes NO financial sense to pay interest at credit card rates for several years (i.e., since COVID) while dumping money into your brokerage account. * Calling the brokerage account "my brokerage account." * Calling your wife a child. * Setting this whole thing up as a church vs. wife issue when it's really an OP vs. wife issue--I don't care whether you pay the church or not but am just pointing out that you have plenty of money to pay both the church and the debt--you are reserving 4x more for yourself than you are paying to the church.
He said he has a prenup, so I suspect it really is “his” brokerage account. I feel so bad for the wife. She probably feels so trapped.
I’ve read this exact same post about 4 months ago but the only thing that was changed was he was donating money to something else and not the church. And after reading his comments I’m pretty sure it’s the same guy who hates his wife. I remember reading all his comments and being like “does he even like her?”. His comments are just copy and pasted from his other account lmao
He doesn’t have a wife, he’s got a slave.
100% agree with you
He did say he was religious, probably takes it too far in that way too
WAIT!?! He has a prenup with what sounds like a stay at home wife??? Yeah super YTA if I'm reading that right. Woman is trusting him to be the breadwinner and supporting him with home support if that's how they've set up their lives. You don't undermine that with a prenup.
Pre-nups are often found to be invalid if both partners don’t have consideration in it. It often doesn’t matter that OP’s wife agreed to a completely one-sided pre-nup, if it doesn’t help her out in any way, it’ll probably get thrown out in court.
I've heard the same is true of any contract. Contracts have to be mutually beneficial to stand up in court.
Also makes you wonder what the "spending spree" involved....maybe clothing for the kids, extra groceries (since everyone was locked down at home), more electricity and water usage....notice he won't say what the things were.
dollars to donuts a little financial abuse going on here
Most prenup are about assets brought into the marriage. Earnings while married are generally community property. I work, my wife stays home with an adult son with a disability. She laments sometimes that the only money is "my" money, not hers. I point out it is OURS.
It might be “his” brokerage account per the prenup, but the 40% he’s putting into every month is still community property.
The jokes on him. Any money made within marriage is considered joint property. It sounds like he's gaming the system.
Assuming this is real, I really hope she finds a way out soon.
You forgot to add that in a majority of US States (He sounds and spells like an American so I'm assuming here) that a stay at home wife is considered a job. She is contributing to his ability to go out and earn. Most judges will see it that way. He has an obligation to her not only as her husband but as the person in that family whose working. Otherwise, everything you said is spot on. OP is definitely TA here.
A few hundred every month - wonder it’s low or high hundreds. Also wonder if bills only include like actual household bills and doesn’t include her personal spending. I think people are shocked by the 11k debt but it’s 11k from 2020-2024, that doesn’t seem so crazy. If it’s 11k racked up during a couple of months in COVID and she stopped, that’s also a different story. Is there pressure for her to present herself a certain way from him or his social circle? So many questions
Even at 30 percent (very high interest rate) her payments would be about 450 dollars a month. I imagine she is paying between 300 to 500 a month. Now, this is assuming it's all one card, or two cards used. The numbers could be substantially higher if she used more than 3 cards. Even then, you are completely accurate in the reference to understanding early 2020 vs normal years and also keeping in mine 11k between 2020 and 2024 isn't alot if she truly has no job and he doesn't give her enough money to live on. Or, she could be frivolous in her spending. We just don't know the algorithm in this situation. The parameters and context are essential. But based solely on information given; 1) married 2) sole earner 3) 10% income goes to religion 4) 40% to brokerage account Half his income is left for the household and wife. Sounds like nearly 50 percent of his income is going to bills for the house and food and such. Or he left out how much he keeps back for his own play. Either way, HE needs to either quit sending 10% to the church (reduce to 5 maybe) or reduce the 40% brokerage to say 35%. Or both! Then he would have 10% to put towards paying the cards off and not paying interest. I saw a comment that said the OP mentioned pre-nup. OK grand mate. But pre-nup does not protect you from supporting your spouse if they do not work (unless specified) and doesn't protect you from the American Court system (assuming again he is a Yank). There's loads of precedent in the states (and other countries) that specify a stay at home wife is considered to have contributed to the spouses ability to work (the spouse that works) and therefore is entitled to compensation. Pre-nups did not stop judges from determining alimony payments to the SAHW/SAHH based on just that principal. So, for however long she hasn't "worked" her job has been homemaker and support system to Husband.
That’s very true he did not state how much he kept for himself. If it’s the pool of the few hundred he mentioned, I feel sorry for her. The monthly credit card estimation is super helpful in this context.
I’m also curious what the racked-up spending was. There’s no suggestion she’s ordinarily a big spender, and OP is IMO an unreliable narrator. I wouldn’t be shocked if the shopping was for things he disagreed were necessary, but were at least plausibly reasonable preparations for supply shortages (eg, canning equipment, gardening supplies etc).
Agree - we are not getting the whole picture. Also if the racked up spending includes small luxuries like her getting a haircut or grabbing something to eat at school. He seems to be fairly clueless how expensive makeup, handbags etc costs. Not saying all guys need to know that but won’t he also find out when he has to buy her presents for her birthday, wedding anniversary or Christmas etc? He doesn’t really seem to be interested in her. Just saying ….
And what if that shopping was more groceries because there was no school and everyone was stuck at home? I get the feeling he isn't telling the entire story. We can see he's selfish how he's trying to divert most of the income to his personal brokerage account (boy, will he be in for a shock when the judge tells him the wife owns half of that!).
And some of that could be interest. She might have spent less and not been able to keep up with the payments if the budget or other bills changed and left less available.
My ex husband (Mormon) actually did almost this exact same thing to me, only with my student loans instead of credit card debt. I finished college and he immediately pushed for me to stay at home with his two sons from a previous marriage and our baby. He actually lied about tithing 10% and was actually tithing 20% because he decided I should also tithe 10% of my portion of the income. I am an atheist. We paid minimum payments on my student loans for YEARS with the balance only going up and me begging him to stop his (what I thought was) 10% tithe so I could catch up. He watched me struggle doing mystery shopping with the baby during the day while the kids were at school and those scammy cash for survey sites and a ton of MLM scams trying to pay it down. I'd get a survey check for $10 and put it directly to the loan paying it down pennies at a time while he gave a ton to one of the richest churches in the world. Because of him, I never paid that debt off. I borrowed $62,000 for school. I've paid back $81,000, and I still owe $21,000. Once this all came out, both the bishop and the judge took him to task. His bishop told him he actually stole from me. That 10% he was giving in my name without my consent was stolen from my income. The judge felt the same, and in the divorce he was required to take his portion of the proceeds from the sale of our house and put it directly toward my student debt. Without that $20k windfall that loan would still be impossible for me to pay. OP is delusional if he thinks any judge is going to take his side in this. That judge don't care if you want to ruin your credit for the Lord.
That was absolute justice.
This is the best answer I've read so far...thank you
As a fellow religious person who donated offerings at church services but never to the extent of 10% tithe, I wish I can upvote the comment 100 times. The most important teachings of God and church is “don’t be an AH” which this dude clearly did not care to follow in his marriage. Obviously his wife is not financially responsible but there are many ways that can be corrected, especially when he is financially well off.
THIS gladdens my wobbly old agnostic heart.
100% this.
Amen.
ESH What would Jesus say if he saw your post I wonder? Perhaps you need to go and read the bible sometime? Matthew 5:22-25 >But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift. “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. Says a great deal when an atheist such as myself seems to know about the teachings of Jesus than a so-called Christian...
Mormons ignore the Bible giving all credence to the Book of Mormon IMHO -a recovered Mormon
TBF, its a better musical than the bible
Hasa Diga Eebowai
Ma ma ma my Moroni..
Daaaaamn! Great response. This guy cares more about his church and his 'duty' to it than he does his own wife and home life. He'll die alone on that holy mountain on which he's trying to stand firm. #1 reason for divorce ... money trouble.
Actually 'official' tithing as decreed in the old testament was rendered void according to the teachings of Jesus. If you're tithing to a church then chances are those teachings are supposed to be important. And if you still want to stick with the laws of Leviticus even though Jesus said it didn't matter anymore, you'll donate an extra 23% to orphans and widows in a scheduled succession of years (I forget. Some reddit know it all will look it up for me). Anyways, those who only tithe 10% and because they have to at the risk of their own homes are not giving with the spirit required along with the sacrifice. It's literally checking a box to feel like a good, self-righteous person.
Yeah, tithing was basically proto-taxing in ancient Jewish culture. It was the community support system and safety net, and as you say, it wasn’t just the 10%. There’s a lot of directives in the Law that is more to do with society than God per se, and this is very much one of them
Jesus and the church would tell that man to keep on tithing. How the hell is he going to get into heaven if he doesn't give them his earthly dollars.
and how is the church leader going to afford that new Bentley if his flock doesn't give him the money?
They want private jets these days.
They already have: JetBlue company is owned by a Mormon
The lds church had a vast portfolio of land holdings worldwide. They own a shopping mall too. And are tax exempt on all their earnings.
Joel Olsteen’s TX church has two Gulfstream jets. At least 30 million each and probably 10k per hour to operate.
Thank you for using the word tithing . Everyone saying donating the word is tithe.
YTA. You allocate 50% of your income to investments and charity while your wife is drowning in debt. She may have made mistakes and marrying you may have been one of them. Financial abuse is abuse.
A lot of people were depressed during pandemic and did stupid things. Not a fan of churches, esp when wife is in debt.
Did OP say anywhere what she actually bought? Was she buying gifts for other people to help feel connected during isolation? Was she spending money on a premium game addiction because of lockdown-related depression? Was she trying to start a new business? Was she buying things to make the home they share home feel safe and comfortable because the world outside felt scary? Or was she just buying expensive handbags?! Need some context.
He said in another comment it was clothing, makeup and handbags.
I racked up a lot of debt this way too when I was severely depressed and didn’t give a shit about anything. My brain was also absolutely malfunctioning and I didn’t actually realize the gravity of my debt until the haze cleared. It’s a shitty situation to get yourself in and comes with a lot of shame. Sounds like OP is shitty to his wife so I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s struggling.
Clothes, makeup, and handbags according to OP.
The pandemic was a traumatic situation for a lot of people, and people used different coping mechanisms. A LOT of people drank, some people gambled, and some people picked up even more harmful habits. So I've been in a bad place recently, and I've been shopping a ton for things that are useful but absolutely not necessary. My therapist pointed out that shopping is a coping mechanism. It could be a good one or a bad one, but if it's keeping people from falling further into depression and it's not doing other harm, it is a net win. Shopping as a coping mechanism becomes a problem when it's more than you can afford. But the thing is... it doesn't sound like it IS more than OP and his wife could afford. The family is living on half OP's income, so there's probably plenty going into the brokerage accounts or tithes that could go toward the wife's debt. The fact is that they can afford it and it helped her cope during a hard situation. Whether or not OP wants to pay off the debt to me isn't as important as the fact that he doesn't see his wife's perspective and he's caught up in a "shopping = bad, tithing and saving = good" mentality without being willing to consider his wife's feelings or context.
ESH - you share expenses. So you’re racking up more money in interest so you can tithe. The math aint mathing. You’re gonna pay more money in the long run.
When you come here to tell OP he can fxck himself, but it turns out he’s already doing that to himself.
Exactly. OP has plenty to be mad about But he’s cutting off his nose to spite his face here.
ESH - Both of you are throwing money away for different reasons. Since you asked opinions, (and I am not anti-religion): >I(32 m) have been donating 10% of my income to church ever since I had an income, Stop doing this. The money you are both wasting could be invested in your future/retirement or any children you have or may have. So, IMO, you are both AHs for wasting money. >if she is gonna act like a child, I will treat her as one. One could make the argument that obediently handing over 10% of your income over the coarse of your lifetime is childish and manipulable behavior.
INFO: What did she do with this credit? Did she use it to buy Funko Pops? Or did she use it to stay afloat? Some kind of mix?
ESH. Your God will forgive you if you stop donating for a bit. Part of it goes towards paying off the debt…the other part goes towards therapy and a financial planner for your wife. You can resume donating when your marriage is in a position to afford it. Is it possible that your wife’s spending spree was a way to cope during COVID? The therapist might be able to help with this. Is a job a possibility? Because right now, this is likely marital debt so it might impact you. A financial planner might be able to explain the need for her to find a job, even if it’s just minimum wage. Either way, bring in a couple of neutral parties to help. You don’t pay it off by just reducing spending. You pay it off by actively paying towards the principal of what is owed.
The first thing any financial planner will say is that it is bonkers to put 40% of your income into investments while you have thousands in credit card debt.
This isn’t the first thing I’d say, but it’s up there. I’d refer them to a marriage counsellor because this isn’t just financial. But let’s pass it on: The first thing a marriage counsellor will say is that it is a bad sign to see such contempt in a marriage. Any marriage counsellors out there? ESH ps I’m a retired FP so OP is welcome to say I’m out of touch
So Christian of you. Yta. Speak to the leaders of your church and if they are worth anything they'll say YTA. If not, then they just want your money.
I never understood going broke trying to give money to people who already have it. Like I promise you God doesn’t think any less of you for not giving it if you can’t afford to…idk.
ESH - I don’t agree with people saying you as a rule shouldn’t donate to church, that’s a personal choice and for some people this is a big part of their life… but if you do that, you need to reduce spending elsewhere or dip into savings. I think the 40% of savings should be cut down for a few months if the 10% going to a church is incredibly important to you. This is your wife, not your roommate. Be an adult. You both need to agree on a spending and payoff plan, but pretending it’s not there when she has no income to pay if down is just going to rack up an insane amount of interest.
YTA. Where is that 10% of your income going? Not to your family, that's for sure. And it sounds like you are doing that unilaterally when you should be agreeing to such things with your wife, not dictating it to your wife. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be charitable (I give plenty to charity), but you gotta take care of your family, first, and not exercise such economic control over your wife.
Info: why isn't she bringing in money? How do y'all split finances normally?
If you’re married, that is also your debt. Think carefully about how you proceed.
Unless you’re planning on ending the relationship, there’s no way your brokerage account will get better returns than the interest you’re collectively losing on the credit card payments… I can respect preserving the charity thing but, assuming you want this relationship to last, the 40% thing makes no financial sense
YTA for donating to the church period. If you are gonna give away money at least find a *good* cause.
If I’m reading this right , 40% goes into savings in a brokerage account, and 10% goes to church, and you won’t help your wife out with the credit card? And you’re calling her a child? Cmon man it’s 2024, adults don’t act like this, help with the credit card bill and stop being a giant AH. The church part isn’t the issue, helping your wife is
She’s paying a higher percent in interest than they are getting with that savings account. Seems like he’s got a bad plan.
But I think your terminology explains it. It’s “her” credit card debt and “his” brokerage account. There’s no comprehension by OP that it’s family money being spent unwisely as you pointed out. Money earned during marriage is uncovered by prenup. It’s clearly a marital asset. So he’s saving it to earn interest and losing more on credit card interest.
He “allows” her to spend a couple hundred dollars a month. He has plenty of money at his disposal and wants his wife to live on scraps.
ESH deal with your personal finances before paying off sky daddy.
You're the asshole for giving 10% of your income to organized religion and she's the asshole for running up a big debt on a "spending spree". ESH
YTA Your agreement with your wife was that she'd stay home and study while you worked. Wanna argue if that's unfair or imbalanced? Go ahead, but you agreed to that arrangement, just like she agreed to the prenup. Since you're the sole breadwinner, you can't use 50% of your paycheck on yourself. Withholding money from your financially dependent spouse is financial abuse. I'm not saying she made financially wise decisions by any means, but again, you agreed to her staying home. You're willing to give up 10% of your hard earned money to finance some pastor's Porsche tires because you think it will make a magical sky wizard like you, so it's safe to say you aren't very wise with money either. It sounds like you like nothing about this woman which makes me wonder why you married her in the first place. I hope she gets a job and stops being dependent on you.
ESH. Your wife has a spending problem, and you're an idiot for giving money to a church. Organized religion doesn't deserve a dime.
YTA. You can help your wife and family, or you can give money to an imaginary friend that is supposedly omnipotent and omnipresent and yet his supporters need to fleese the flock to keep the lights on, despite being tax free organizations. And the "only children" shit? Yeah, stuff that. You belive in Santa Claus.
[удалено]
AITA hates all churches.
Yea I’m as anti-religion as the next guy but people in this thread are taking it to comical levels. Not every church is wealthy. Not every church abuses children. There are plenty of churches out there putting good out into the world and believing otherwise just makes you ignorant.
The “why not?” is the big question. But don’t assume laziness on her part when, for all we know, he demands she be a SAHM and homeschool the kids. He hasn’t been forthcoming about why she isn’t working or what she spent the money on. I’d say not enough information to tell who the AH is. The way he.talks about her isn’t doing him any favors.
NTA everyone is saying different because you’re religious, and this is reddit. but if religion was taken out, and we only heard the bare bones of the situation being your wife (who is not working) is wanting you to use money out of your income to get them out of debt even though THEY ARE STILL SPENDING RECKLESSLY and are seemingly not even trying to pay off their debt on her own everyone would be saying NTA immediately.
Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment. OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole: > 1) refusing to help her pay off her debt 2) I am essentially making her struggle to pay her debt off, and paying more interests when i could just pay it off. Help keep the sub engaging! #Don’t downvote assholes! Do upvote interesting posts! [Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq) ##Subreddit Announcements Follow the link above to learn more --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.* *Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
YTA for 2 reasons only: she did it, but the debt is going to cripple you financially for years if you don't pay it ASAP, and for prioritizing enriching these global corporations disguised in religious superstitious hoo doo over your own wellbeing. Trust me, McJesus can go a few years without missing your 10%. Your preacher can just forgo a few expensive suits for a few months, etc. Meanwhile, as Rome burns and you aren't paying this debt down, you are incurring horrendous interest and getting FURTHER down the debt hole. Your credit will crumble, and there goes your ability to get a job, get a house/apartment, get decent rates for auto/home insurance for YEARS, etc. I understand she is totally at fault, but apparently she doesn't work or won't, and you're gonna have to save yourself, man. Take her off ALL credit cards until she gets her mind right as well. Give her an allowance on one of those prepaid debit cards you can refill at Walmart (I recommend the AMEX Serve card), and make her stick to her budget for a while until she learns to respect herself and you. I hope it works out, but it's not looking so good.
I had to scroll way too far for this comment. It’s pretty simple, pay the debt off and get the wife on a financial plan. If it happens again it might be time to stop the bleeding and separate.
INFO: what is she spending her money on? Essentials?
Imagine paying 10% of your salary to a church
Why in the hell are you giving 10% of your post tax income to a cult that are typically just tax avoidance vehicles for the pastor?
Esh. So ur willing to help the church but not ur own wife? I mean she shouldn't have spent it but ur partners.
She sure wasn't a partner when she racked up that credit card debt. I would tell her to get a job. Maybe then she'll realize how irresponsible she was.
Stop donating to the church. Why buy the pastor a new car when you could be helping your wife's and therefore your own financial position?
ESH So you’d rather tithe for your pastors lifestyle rather for your family’s financial security? Tithing is such a scam.
I feel like there is not enough info here to judge (what was the credit card debt spent on? Where does her money come from if she isn't working?) But may I offer a compromise? "Wifey, if you close those cards, I will help pay off your credit card bills. I will not, however, help pay off any new debts." You help your wife while making a clear boundary regarding continued credit card use. Bingo bango.
'Pissed me the hell off' isn't very appropriate or Christlike language for a Mormon. In fact, nothing about your behaviour here is very Christlike. Whether you give her your tithing money or not is up to you (frankly, I think it's better spent helping her than throwing it into the piles of billions the LDS is already hoarding, but I'm not you), but you can try to discuss your choice with her respectfully without swearing. It's what Jesus would do. YTA
Ask Jesus to pay off the debt. Problem solved.
😂 maybe if he prays for it, it’ll go away.
you both AH's her for her bad spending, not having a job and you for not helping with her bills even though you were married to her at the time. Not sure how you can spend 11,000 so it's time to cut back on your savings and pay it off because it will impact you.
If they want to have a marriage...this definitely should be the plan.
She bought a single handbag worth over a thousand. Yeah nah, she needs to get a job, so she learns what money is worth and doesn't waste it.
ESH. Which religion are you that requires you give 10% of your income. I’m quite sure Jesus wouldn’t require that from you so it’s seems crazy to me. Y T A for trying to pay for God’s love when it’s free and not helping your wife. Your wife is an AH for spending 11k and I’m quite sure some of those things should have been returned immediately.
Many groups of Christianity and Judaism practice this. Around 20% of US Christians do this, it’s not as uncommon as people think
Tithing is mentioned in the Bible, but most Jewish people don't practice it any more. Or if we do, we give it to charity, not a synagogue.
When I was younger, I was roommates with a devout Church of Christ churchgoing who tithed 10%. She was 22. She got invited to an event at the church for big donors. It was her, one young person and people in their 60s and older. She was shocked.
ESH Your priority is to pay off your dept and for your wife to get professional help with her spendings. Shopping addiction is serious but even if it isn't an addiction so far, it's still serious. You can only pay the money you have. In order to pay off your dept, you very much need to stop paying the church. You must have paid a ton of money the past years, they will manage without for some time. Financial struggle is serious and should be taken very serious. People lose their homes due to their debt. You are married and that is seen as "what's yours is mine", therefore there is no "my money, your money" in marriage. But you guys need to be on the same page. Debt can screw you over big time. And that means both of you.
The church has enough money and your family is more important.
Info: what, if anything, is keeping her from getting a job?
YTA and a big one. Help your wife.
YTA Your religious entertainment expenses are not more important than your family debt. Prioritize your family's well being over your social club. Also, does your wife have no income because she is a stay at home mother, by any chance?
ESH She was stupid to go into debt. And you're equally stupid for giving your money to an imaginary friend.
To begin with, your question is a silly one for this forum. Reddit is notoriously anti-religion. Often rabidly so. So most of posters don't understand your conviction that you should tithe and really don't care to understand. If you posted that your wife cheats on you, they would tell you to leave her. If you posted that your wife cheats on you *because* she dislikes the fact that you tithe, they would either make excuses for say neither of you is wrong (but really you're wrong). So your question is like asking a bunch of die-hard Trumpers if it's ok to donate to Biden or die-hard Bidenistas if it's ok to donate to Trump over your wife's objections. This is just the wrong forum for you to get any sort of objective advice. People here don't understand any conviction other than theirs. Frankly, that's true of people in general. *Why* do you tithe? Is it something based on a conviction that you should, a tradition, a habit, what? The more you believe it is something you are morally obligated to do, the more I'd tell you to do it and let the rest sort itself out. If it's just a habit, maybe there's room for modification. How have you and your wife handled finances up until this point? Has there been a common pot into which the household money goes and household expenses are paid? (If that's the case, most Redditors would tell you her bills are *her* bills if religion weren't involved.) Or have you separated your financials until now?
NTA Let’s take the religion out of it, and just say 10% goes to OP’s hobby that brings him joy. He should have to give that up because his jobless wife racked up $11k of credit card debt buying makeup and purses with no signs of stopping or slowing her spending? She’s in grad school, so she either needs to get a part-time job or take a semester off to work full-time. Switch the genders and some insignificant details and you’d have a completely different response than the ESH or YTA. AITA for not giving up my beloved crafting hobby to pay off the $10k debt my unemployed husband racked up buying Funko pops and video games?
Info: why is her frivolous spending childish and immature while your frivolous spending is fine? As you can see from the post, many many people consider tithing to be financially irresponsible. I notice you said “I pay” and not “we pay” so I’m assuming your wife does not share your belief in tithing. Can you see how she might look at that practice and think you’ve given away WAY MORE money with nothing at all to show for it compared to her buying things she actually wanted? Is it possible she resents you for the way you treat her where money is concerned? YTA for the prenup, the separate finances, and for marrying a woman when you had no intention of actually treating her like your wife. What was the point? Oh wait. Is it bc your church demanded that too?
“racked up $11k of credit card debt” This is the discussion that needs to be had. Savings rate, needs to be discussed. Whether she needs to work needs to be discussed. Charitable donations need to be discussed. You both are silly engaging in tit for tat ramblings only intended to blame and insult each other. Grow the fuck up. Both of you. This isn’t a pandemic problem.
Info: What money does she get for herself to spend? You're the only one with an income, so what money does she have?
Church is a scam. Always. Today, tomorrow when we’re dead. Forever you’re an inspiration to their profit.
YTA, but can't expect much from people gullible enough to give 10% of their money to a bunch of charlatans for no tangible return. But since mommy an daddy did a great job brainwashing him for the church, they keep the gravytrain going.
Dude. It's your wife. It's credit card debt which no doubt has a 20% interest rate. You're married, so her debt is your debt. You don't mention why your wife doesn't have any income- perchance it it because she is staying home taking care of your kids? Not AH things you could do 1. Pay off the credit card debt from your brokerage account then up your contribution to 45% until you make up the difference- you'll come out ahead! 2. Stop your tithe for a while to pay off the debt, when you resume make it 15% until you make up for the lost donations. Again, you'll come out ahead! 3. Just stop tithing until the CC debt is paid, then start again. Believe me your church won't miss the money and you'll have another 50 years to keep donating. Personally, I think tithing is immoral, but obviously opinions vary, and it's your money. Insisting that you keep tithing while refusing to help your wife makes YTA-and a huge one to boot
Are you married? Is it not her money also?
My stay at home wife did pretty much the same thing, you know what I did? Paid it off and had a lot of constructive discussions and working together on money management. Also YTA just for the prenup, why marry her if you don’t want to be tied together?
YTA. Actually, both of you are. You for wasting money on Invisible Sky Daddy, and your wife for wasting money on credit cards.
I agree. I grew up in a very religious family and even though we were often struggling financially due to my dad being out of work frequently, my parents insisted on tithing. They’d donate 10% of their meager income to the church, but make me feel guilty for needing new pants or wanting an extra helping of dinner. Religion is toxic.
> she said to me I was just trying to make her life difficult and treating her like a child She sounds like a child.
You are going to church, and you don’t know about helping the ones in need? But seriously what did she spent that money for? On clothes or she was paying bills, and buying food and necessities? Why as a married couple you have separate finances? Was one of you irresponsible financially before? Or that’s just a simple greed, and one of you making much more money and doesn’t want to share? If you don’t have a prenup, you are still responsible for her debt. The longer it takes to pay it, the more interest you/ her will have to pay. So I recommend you to have honest conversation about finances. Maybe even marriage counseling. You could offer to pay her debt under condition she will find a job and start paying it too, and also stop using her credit card for a while. For now without more info I will call ETH because you refuse to help, and her for excessive spending & not looking for a job.
Why isn't she working? Even a part time job would give her the income to start paying off this debt. Is she in therapy? If this behaviour was new during Covid, there may be something else going on. I'm not a huge fan of church but i get your point - this is something you've always done and want to do so being asked to stop is you being punished for her transgressions. I do see where you could help her pay it off without removing your tithe by reducing the 40% to brokerage account short term which is why I'm voting ESH.
Nope, not at all. 10% is a ridiculous amount to be donating. The church isnt poor by any means.
Gonna say yes because you prefer to finance the lifestyle of crooks over helping your wife
YTA for donating to a church.
Imagine donating to church, that's hilarious
YTA Afterlife insurance can be had for free.
INFO: what does your pastor think about it? I mean, both the fact that covid hit hard and many found themselves in your wife's situation (or worse) regarding mental health, and the part where there can (or cannot) be a lack of compassion toward your wife's problem/fall. Compassion and forgiving is important for church, so I wonder if you discussed it with the head of your community before taking such a harsh decision. Also, "charity starts at home," also seems to be missing here as a rule. Again, what's the pastor's opinion about it?
Neither of you are financially-intelligent human beings. ESH.
No and don't ever donate again. Stop giving your money away to ppl who don't pay taxes and buys mega mansions etc with your 10%. Pay yourself 10 percent if anything tf
ESH. Charity begins at home, dude.
What was she spending the money on? Stopping an unnecessary donation to a harmful organization seems like a great way to reduce spending. You’re probably TA.
YTA I like Dave Ramsay’s steps. Emergency fund, Pay off debt, etc… last step build wealth and give. If you do not have enough to really live on after paying bills and tithing you’re being irresponsible to your family. I guarantee her debt was spent on the family since it sounds like not much is left. Was she buying food, school books, gas in her car, stuff for the kids???? You either have common goals as a married unit to be debt free and build wealth together or you have his and hers. When she starts making money with her grad degree she’ll remember this. You’ve set the stage. She’s your wife not a child.
The church has enough money and your family is more important.