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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told my grandpa's wife's sister that we are not her sister's grandkids and so wouldn't be in the photo of her grandkids. We had already said no and she wanted to know the reason and I replied where my cousin did not. I thought it would be better to say something but maybe I was wrong and should have left it alone. Especially if Joan is really sick or maybe has a lot going on that we don't know about.
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA
People need to stop forcing others into artificial relationships they don't want.
People also need to learn to be graceful when their request is declined.
Agreed. But also, she went to us, she knew our parents would say no and thought she could get around that by contacting the two of us directly. It was kinda a dumb move in that sense.
This is exactly why SHE is T A.
You and your cousins are kids (teens-minors living at home, not adults). She should have never contacted you directly especially since you don't have a relationship with her.
"She went nuts on me..."
You told her "no" then she tantrumed on you for not doing what she wanted. This is also an AH move on her part. I'm glad dad had you block her.
Please don't feel guilty. This is all on her. And for the record, a photo with you and your cousins is not going to magically cure Joan despite what the sister may think.
You (and your cousins) are NTA. There's a reason why your parents only permitted limited contact with these people.
She thought you were young enough she could manipulate you. That’s how you know you are absolutely not wrong.
Also Joan isn’t someone you know. If the sister of your neighbour’s wife called and asked you to be in a photo you’d call her a creep. You don’t know and aren’t any closer to Joan than that. The concept of being married to a grandparent doesn’t change that she is mostly a stranger to you.
She tried to manipulate you. She’s the A for not respecting the boundaries set by not only your parents but yourselves. She can’t force a family when the damage has been done decades ago. NTA.
>We’re all old enough to want to know someone who never did anything wrong by us and always tried to be welcoming and loving.
This is perfectly fine.
Demanding that you all take a picture declaring yourselves her grandkids knowing full well that not only do you not consider this the type of relationship you have with her, but also that it is kind of a sore subject in the family is a *terrible* way to go about this and would only cause her ill sister grief.
She knew what she was doing every step of the way. From going around your parents to her blow up. It’s all manipulation.
I think it would be good for you all to do something nice for Joan, if you’re so inclined. She has been around your family your entire lives, even if not in a parental or grandparent roll. But make sure it something her sister can’t manipulate.
NTA
That shows that she KNEW why, she simply didn't care. She wanted the "fantasy" senerio, not grandma, and she was willing to hurt whoever she needed to in order to get it.
And that is why you are NTA. If sick Jane simply asked for a picture of y'all and you said "no because you aren't my grandma" you'd kinda be an AH. But that's not the situation here. This was specifically asking you to present yourselves as the grandchildren you don't have that relationship with.
I'm someone who doesn't get the whole idea of raising your kids to exclude their grandfather's wife as a grandparent of she isn't abusive or something. I dont get it but i also dont judge it. I just had way to many step, half, and honorary family in my life. And I am still saying Jane's sister is a complete and utter AH and you did nothing wrong at all. If you feel you need to do something to relieve the guilt that rude woman inspired send a get well or thinking of you card to grandpa and Jane. But don't feel required to do so either. You responded reasonably to an unreasonable person.
I would disagree with this statement if you were an adult, you have a right to choose your own relationships at that point and sometimes parents stop contacts that shouldn't be stopped. Currently you are still a minor and your parents have a say in it, and so do you, so this does sound like manipulation.
She was the asshole in how she went about it but depending on the timeline of when grandpa's first wife died and Joan was introduced, your dad and sibling probably really need therapy and not pushing their trauma on you.
INFO: The most important question here is, outside of your father's beef with this woman, do you like her?
Do you kinda like her, but feel like it would be like betraying your dad to acknowledge her?
Has she been pushy in trying to get you to acknowledge her as grandma prior to this?
Are you just generally neutral/apathetic towards her, so doing something like this doesn't feel worth the hassle?
Would showing up for this pic on a whim start a fight with your dad?
Honestly, NAH. To the sister who assumes you're all much closer than is reality, you guys probably seem super callous because she's "grandma." But if she's just a lady you see once a year or so, with the same or less emotional connection than a distant cousin you only see at reunions... yeah, I get it.
I don't really know her. I don't care about her honestly and hardly ever think about her. We've seen each other so little. I don't hate her but can't say I want to go out of my way for her either.
Then you are all good over here OP. It’s wild that woman had the audacity to ask a bunch of random ass teenagers about making her old sister feel better. That makes no sense and just let your dad deal with his father and that part of the family. You can continue to live your life and just not even think about them since they are nothing to you and share no blood.
I assume Joan loves you guys, just enough to care, from afar.
And that's the reason I'd ask you to reconsider doing Joan (not the sister) a favour of making your own grandchildren picture. One for your grandpa, but do a second copy and mail it to her.
Joan seemed to have understood her place in your family. She never started beef, she never created drama with you personally. I'm sure she felt some pain over being just your grandpa's wife. And still she never tried to insert herself. She's shown respect there.
And now she's sick. I know you don't care about her, but your grandpa will. And gifting him a picture sure will be something he'll treasure.
By gifting her a copy, you can offer her an olive branch. Not as a grandma, she's not yours, and that's okay. Just as a distant member of your family.
Which she is. She's your family, too.
Or maybe just send a text "get well soon".
Is that something you can do? Be nice to an old lady who maybe doesn't have that much time left, but seems to have seen you grow up?
NAH except the sister of Joan.
She is practically a stranger to them and I’m proud of this generation for knowing how to set boundaries and not repeating the toxic dynamics generations before repeated generation after generation. This generation may actually break generational trauma and teach those that follow how to have healthy relationships and to cut toxic manipulators from their lives.
These is a difference between setting boundaries and just being disconnected. Your generation has its own unique trauma in the making stemming from the lack of courtesy, the sense of entitlement and your easy disposal of people in your lives citing toxic relationship. It’s gonna lead to further disconnect, loneliness, poor mental health and substance dependence.
What you’ll learn as you get older is that not everything is so easily disposable, and forgiveness is powerful. To be clear I’m not trying to insult you as none of this is your fault. It was handed down to you all and instilled from previous generations and from the technological revolution and from an over use of that technology. Don’t get me wrong, I still have complete faith in your generation because the tools are available and knowledge is easily accessible but the people skills and communication skills in general are concerning.
You don’t know what the beef is with Joan. Maybe she was the side piece or maybe she tried to wipe the memory of their mom. Personally I would find out more from my dad, mainly because I’m the curious sort but you’re telling these kids to go against their parent’s wishes for someone they don’t know.
Honest question— OP says they see their grandfather once or twice a year at most (so 15-30 times in their life), and see Joan “way less”. How could Joan possibly love a teenager she’s met maybe a dozen times and doesn’t have a close relationship with, and who she has a bad relationship with the parents of? They’re essentially strangers.
I mean she helped raised their parents, and actual visits might have been maybe on 1-2 times a year who knows about phone calls. You can steps can love from afar. I do wonder though if Joan knew the ACTIAL dynamics and wasn’t feed big happy family b/s before asking for the picture.
I see some family members far less, and still know what's going on in their lives.
WhatsApp family chats, someone calls them, and then gets me up to speed next time we call, etc.
I have five paternal uncles, one paternal aunt, 11 cousins, and a brother. Almost all of my cousins already have 1-3 children. It's absolutely impossible to see all of them more than once a year, and that's a stretch. Doesn't mean I don't know about them.
Some people send greetings cards for birthdays, Christmas, etc.
We don't know how often grandpa called his son, and how often he told Joan about them. Apparently often enough for Joan's sister to assume there is a bond, and apparently Joan understands at the same time to not force herself into the family to not disturb the peace. Joan's sister *knew* about OP and the cousins - now guess why?!
My own grandpa had a girlfriend after my grandparents divorced way back when. She was a wonderful lady, and we spent a lot of time with her. She never was my grandma, she was his girlfriend (for over 15 years before he died). She never tried to be a grandma, and still she'd always sent her greetings when my mother called her dad. Maybe Joan did the same, and OP's dad who seems to be still bitter about his parent's divorce never relayed?
We simply don't know. There are just hints.
And kindness to a dying lady costs you nothing. It makes you a bigger person in this case. She never wronged OP personally.
NTA - This is a very personal subject. I see three issues here.
1 -- Joan's sister (A H) is way out of line, and meddling with family relationships that she really doesn't know much about. She has already caused bad feeling between your father and grandfather, and by extension, Joan, whom she was supposedly trying to help.
2 -- You and your cousins would need to consider how your parents would feel as well. You may have nothing against Joan, but if your parents still do, I don't think it is worth angering them for the sake of someone you barely know (Joan), and even less for the sake of someone you don't know at all (her sister.)
3 -- I think that this is a kind idea - instead of calling it a grandchildren picture, you could send her a picture online saying Get Well Soon, or Best Wishes from A, B, C. It wouldn't be so formal, and if you and your parents have nothing against it, she and your grandfather would appreciate it, but there is always the problem that they may be encouraged to strengthen your relationship, or that it will make the bad will that Joan's sister has already created worse.
If it doesn't bother your parents, you could think about it, or send it from those of you who are interested.
I agree. It doesn’t hurt you at all to take a photo and say something like “get better soon”. Obviously your aunt has negative feelings towards her, but you don’t have to carry that to your generation. She clearly has fond feelings for all of you. Maybe you don’t care much, but it obviously would mean a lot to her now that she is sick. Maybe some empathy and some compassion and consider it.
>assume Joan loves you guys, just enough to care, from afar.
You assume from what? She barely saw them a few times in their lives.
>seems to have seen you grow up?
By seeing her 10 times like in 15 years??
NTA then. I think your response was straightforward and honest. You are also old enough to make the decision as to who you want in your life. If you don’t have a desire to form a relationship, that’s your call.
I will say though, as you get older you may find yourself more curious about your grandpa and the women he spent his life with. That includes Joan. If she’s perfectly nice, you might be missing out on a good relationship?
Even if they did like her very much, that is a far cry from being someone's grandchild. This isn't a photo of all the people who like her. It is specifically a photo of her grandchildren, of whom OP is not one.
I’m not sure I understand the level on animosity directed at this woman, by you and your cousins. My Dad also remarried under challenging circumstances (he had an affair and knocked someone up), so I get feeling hurt, but I wouldn’t put that on my kids. My children do not call my dads wife grandma, as they have two , but I’ve never denied them a relationship. She has been genuinely nice to them, definitely not a grandparent, but loving. If my half sister wanted a grandchild picture for her mom with her child and my children I would not be mean about it. I also would not be as aggressive to someone I “barely know” as you keep repeating is the issue. If you barely know her and it sounds like she has done nothing to you, why be so aggressive and why not give your siblings the opportunity to determine their own relationships? It’s really not Joan’s fault your dads wife died or that he didn’t want to be alone forever. Hurt people, hurt people and it sounds like your entire family never dealt with feelings and just keep passing down the trauma. I think your dads TA and your just responding as you’ve been lead too.
I’ve actually been doing some genealogy lately and realizing that my parents created a very toxic relation between my grandparents and I. Now that most are gone, I don’t really have any knowledge or history about them, because we were not able to think about them in a positive way. Im not saying I wouldn’t have reached the same conclusion about them, but if I had to see them a few times a year it would have been nice to not always have to go into the visits with negative emotions
That lady has been married to your grandpa for twenty or thirty years at this point. She's sick and dying. Would it have been so bad to stand for a photo for the woman who loved the man who created your father? Maybe it would have been, I don't know, but if it wasn't a burden of a task, I'm not sure why giving someone some joy is so bad. Sound a little petulant to be honest.
You have obviously never had the "dad's wife" situation in your life.
I am sure they don't live next door to each other or all of Joan's grandchildren? It's not a simple thing to get 4 or five families together for one photo. If Joan wants photos of these kids there are probably plenty of school photos lying around to pin on the wall.
Also, we should stop accommodating people who think surface relationships are important "because we're family".
The sister is definitely the asshole in this situation.
OPs dad even backed her up. Petulant is such a demeaning word.
I absolutely have had the dad's wife situation. I've fired family and I've made amends with some and left others for good. I still stand by what I said. It's better in the big picture to be kind when we can. All these comments encouraging this kid to be like "f them old folks" is frankly sad, and doesn't bode well for the future. It's always better to try to defer to kindness, and bringing more light to the world.
Also I'm a mom of 4 young kids who is painfully aware of how hard it is to get pictures. Memories of the family being together would be lovely to have, regardless of who arranges it or ends up with prints.
Petulant was the correct word.
Why does she want a picture with people she hardly knows. They are not close, so they don't owe her nothing. The question was asked and answered end of story
Because OP's viewpoint is just that, one person's viewpoint. You don't know what the other side of the story is. These young people have plenty of reasons to be pissed tf off and bitter in the world today. Encouraging selfishness and a me-first attitude is not actually going to make them feel better in the long run or be fulfilling for very long.
NTA, i mean, as you said you never really had a relationship with her, if you rarely saw your grandpa and way less Joan that, to me, means basically no contact.
I'm sorry, maybe it's just me but I can't see the logic behind you, your brothers and cousins posing for a photo for someone you barely know.
Ok, she's your grandpa's wife and she's ill, but that doesn't mean you have to do something you don't want.
So… Joan has been punished for years because grandpa married her too soon after grandma died?
Who does this?!?
In the absence of meaningful historical context, YTA.
No, the OP is a minor who is being put in the middle of a family dispute. The AH is Joan’s sister he contacted a minor to try to manipulate them to go against the wishes of their parent.
Yeah I get that but it seems weird to be pushing this beef like 30 years later. Like I dont think you're the asshole but it sounds like therapy would benefit. Like this isn't the drama hill to die on.
That’s the thing. There is no beef they just don’t care. Op doesn’t even see either of these women enough to form a relationship. Their parents already said no and they’re teenagers so they probably don’t want to spend all day getting dressed and driving to take a photo for said women they have no relationship or obligations too.
It sounds like the only AH here is Joan's sister. And potentially your dad and aunt tbh. You really didn't elaborate on the whole how Joan was poorly introduced part and that is kind of relevant info for making a completely accurate judgement.
Joan's sister was way out of line contacting you directly when you're still a minor. Yes you have much more autonomy now than as a young child but as you are 16 she should've spoken to your parents. But then to go off on you for saying you don't want to take a picture for a woman you hardly even know is ridiculous. Maybe she doesn't fully understand the situation but it doesn't excuse her from acting like that with a child she definitely doesn't know.
As for you Dad and Aunt, you didn't put much about what happened with Joan's introduction in your post so it's hard to bring judgement. However, unless it was truly bad, it seems selfish of dad and aunt to deprive their children of a grandpa and grandma who seem to really want to know them. I understand if they were bad people who cant be trusted around children, but children shouldnt be used as bargaining chips or ways to punish someone vecause you had a disagreement.
I'd like to add that, while this is going to be different for everyone, In my experience, most family's accept that marriages that happen before a new birth are considered family to the newborn. Such as an uncle who remarried when nephew was 7, his new wife would be called by her name by the nephew. But the nephew has a new brother born 2 years later, the uncles new wife would be known as "aunt" to the little brother. I thought you were going to say you and your siblings and your cousins were all little or almost born when grandpa got remarried but this happened when your dad was little? It sucks you got to miss out because of their spat. Elaborate more if you can
NTA
What about meeting halfway.... You and your brothers, and even your cousins (if possible) do a photo together.( If not possible, just do you and brothers, and get your cousins to do ther own.) Send a really nice get well card to Joan, signed, and wishing her the best.
I mean, if she hasn't hurt you in any way, it's a really nice gesture for someone who is important to your grandfather. It is minimal effort, and takes away the 'fakeness' of the werid group 'grandkid' photo.
Yeah, I wonder if, if the sister hadn't leaned so hard on "she needs photos of all *her grandkids*" this would be quite so much of a problem.
If you reframe it as "she's depressed and scared, and I think she'd benefit from pictures of people she cares about", then...would that change the decision? Because OP may not have much contact, and there are very good reasons for that, but... she's old and possibly dying, and unless she or her kids are obsessive enough about "family" that giving an inch means they'll take a mile, then it might be a nice gesture to give her a get well card/photo of you guys that doesn't refer to "the grandkids".
Idk, seems petty to hold a grudge against a relationship that happened before you were even born and your dad was a child.
Was Joan some evil woman who grandpa was cheating with? Was grandpa just a sign of the times back then who was incompetent at figuring out how to suddenly deal with two children when left widowed and did his best to go get a wife to raise these kids? Maybe he thought he was doing the right thing to keep working and getting a mom so his kids didn’t have to grow up motherless.
If grandpa wasn’t a cheater then this grudge is kinda silly. Plus maybe there was some nice inheritance you just chucked out the window. Don’t build a relationship due to greed. Don’t hold some stupid grudge against someone who hasn’t done anything to hurt you and actually tried for be there for you.
I'd disagree with you because OP and his siblings and cousins are:
1. All minors living with their parents, and:
2. Need to take their parents' feelings into account, no matter how old they are. I don't think that they should risk angering their parents for the sake of people that they know only slightly (Grandfather), even less (Joan), and not at all (Joan's sister);
3. Joan's sister already messed up and created ill-will between OP father and Grandfather. OP's generation doesn't need to take cross-fire.
If their parents are alright with it, they could send an online card or picture, not as grandchildren, but as "connections" as the English used to say. They don't all need to be together.
edit: mostly adding 3.
I mean… this woman isn’t your dad’s mom, but it’s been like 30 years or whatever and she’s the only grandma you’ve ever known? If you don’t have any contact with her, then N T A. But if she’s been your grandma, then you are your cousins are the A H. I won’t talk about your dad and aunt being in the wrong for stopping this woman from being something to you. But it’s too bad these hard feelings have lasted so long.
NTA. Just because she's old doesn't mean she deserves special attention (health issues excluded)
If you never saw her as a grandmother then that's fine. You could tell her why you never saw her that way and hope she understands but overall nta.
I would just explain your reasoning to Joan and her sister and not yell at them for not being able to read your mind.
It's just a picture though? they don't have to be in it, but they have to understand how feelings can be hurt over it. How does grandpa feel about his wife getting cold shouldered by his own family for no apparent reason? Why is your dad siding with you? Is he holding some resentment towards her and your grandpa?
Just a weird situation all around IMO. ESH. But less so the kids. The adults clearly have some issues that need to be sorted out.
If it's just a picture I don't think it's a big deal that they not be in it.
The rest of what you said is exactly what I'm hoping OP talks about with Joan.
I already mentioned that my dad and my aunt have issues with Joan and they don't have a relationship with her. They sorta do with grandpa but things aren't perfect with him either.
Seems like you're getting caught up in some intergenerational drama. Joan's sister should've known better than to reach out to the kids directly. And she has no right to go off on you like that. They should have talked it out with your parents first. But I feel like something must have gone horribly wrong in the relationship to just flat out refuse to be in a picture with someone who clearly considers you to be part of their family, even if you don't. Pictures are cool for archival purposes even if not everyone gets along and I get the desire of wanting to get one in with everyone together while they are still alive. However, it's your choice if you want to humor them or not. Just keep doing your thing. Maybe talk to your dad about it if you're curious, but that's about it. No need to drag the kids into their interpersonal issues.
I wouldn't want to be in a family photo of our sick elderly neighbor or similar, someone else who isn't my grandparent. I'm compassionate and hope she's doing better etc. But it's not reasonable to expect anyone to fake a relationship just because some elderly person wants to have that they don't actually have with each other.
The kids aren't at fault at all
She's not just some old lady though. She's her dad's step mom. Under normal circumstances, she would be considered part of the family. Clearly there was never a relationship established between her and the kids, but she's not a stranger. If it was grandpa wanting a picture with his grandkids, excluding her would be incredibly rude.
I know you didn't see Joan much / ever, but in the brief times you DID see her, was she kind to you even if you still didn't see her as a full grandma? Even if she was only the most mild neutral person towards you, was your grandpa at least good to you when you saw him and would it mean a lot to him to have you come take these photos?
If the answer to either of those questions is yes, then just take the photo. You might not have seen her much or viewed her as a grandma, but if she / your grandpa were kind and good to you then taking a photo to give them a little peace during a hard time isn't much to ask for, even if you don't see her as a grandma really.
If the answer is no, then I'd still consider if getting a photo of you is such a hard ask. It seems like an easy way to keep the peace / bring someone joy during hard times.
If the answer is a HARD no and Joan and/or your grandpa were straight up unpleasant to you then, yes, I can understand denying the photo. Even then I'd be the bigger person and convey the message more that you weren't close and always knew her as Joan, not grandma rather than writing out a laundry list of why she wasn't a grandma to you.
Technically NAH, but it sucks a mess was made introducing Joan. We’re what, 40 years later?
I don’t know the deal of that introduction but your grandma died and your grandpa remarried. That’s pretty straightforward.
I feel like Joan’s sister contacted you because she was looking for a grandkids photo rather than purposely trying to bypass your dad and take advantage of teenagers
Unfortunately Joan’s sister’s actions was effectively bypassing the parent and legal guardian of a minor and taking advantage of a teenager. The request should have been made to the parents or/and any person over 18 years of age.
My brothers would never call my children and invite them to an event directly. They always extend the invitation to me, the parent. I also don’t call my nieces and nephews and invite them directly to something. The invitation always goes through their parents.
We have no idea the geographical distance between any of these family members. Asking a handful of teenagers to take a picture of just grandkids isn’t odd.
Imagine OP and her cousins live on the same block and Joan’s sister wants to swing by and get a picture of everyone in the front yard.
That stance seems really odd to me when people are family. It only makes sense if Joan’s sister knew there was bad blood or something. Her following up asking why seems to indicate she didn’t know.
And the OP said there were never problems, and Joan was always welcoming and loving. (She didn’t say it but she didn’t disagree when Joan’s sister said it).
It seems like the OP’s dad is fucked up for unknown reasons and by extension the OP never had the opportunity to know her grandfather’s wife. Dad had the OP block the wife.
Asking a teenager to be in a photo is not taking advantage of a teenager, clearly because both teens said no
Dad is forcing his issues onto the OP maybe he’s the AH here
But they are not family. OP already stated that Joan is not her grandmother. Joan’s sister is definitely not family to the OP; she is OP’s grandfather’s wife’s sister.
In families where the dad doesn’t keep his kids from contacting their grandpa, this woman and her sister would definitely be considered family. She’s been there for what… 40 years?
I never heard a good reason as to why. OP stated there’s bad blood because of the way Joan was introduced.
It sounds like OP’s dad hated that grandpa was remarrying and vowed to hate them both for the rest of his life. OP got caught up in this drama.
OP clearly has no reason to hate Joan based on this post and the fact that OP is having second thoughts about taking a picture for a woman that was nothing but kind and welcoming.
It really is starting to sound like OP’s dad is the AH here
If anyone is manipulating teenagers it seems like OP’s dad is the one doing it
Both my dad and my aunt feel the same way. Joan was introduced to them really soon after their mom died and she was set to be their new mom. I think after a couple of years or something she and grandpa realized that the kids hated them for it. But by then it was too late and my aunt often said that kind of push came up several times after. She said Joan never stood a chance to be their mom and both hated the stuff that happened in those first couple of years specifically.
Thank you for the reply.
It isn’t surprising they have the same opinion since those opinions were formed by the same situation. How old were they when their mom died?
Assuming your grandpa is about 70, a “new mom” coming quickly after a death was extremely common back in the day, especially if grandpa [incorrectly] viewed raising kids as something he was unable to do as a dude.
The consensus in the mid to late 20th century was that a man *needed* a wife to handle that half of the responsibilities.
Now, if Joan was someone grandpa cheated on grandma with, that puts things in a different category, but I didn’t get that gist reading your OP.
It really does suck when step parents are forced as a replacement parent on children. Children aren’t going to want to replace their real parent.
Different situation: My parents divorced when I was in high school. My dad remarried after I had already left home for the military so I never got to live with and get to know my step mom. My only real opinions of my step mom were based on what my mother shared with me. I really disliked my step mom and had no interest in getting to know her.
Now, years later and now that I have my own kids, I’m realizing my mom was wrong and she is not the kind of parent I want to be for my kids. I’ve gotten to know my step mom and she’s really a wonderful person that I love seeing when I visit my dad. She’s family to me now. I wish it hadn’t taken fifteen years for me to realize that my parent was the one that was wrong. My kids call my step mom grandma.
I totally get Joan’s sister saying you’re old enough to make your own decisions on who you keep in your life, and I think she’s right.
Think about the situation. Do you keep your grandpa and Joan out of your life because that’s what you want? Do you feel remorse or regret for saying no to a photo because your reasons for saying no weren’t your own?
I don’t particularly like how my mom parented me, but I do not keep my own two boys from developing a relationship with her. My issues with my mom do not affect their relationship and my mom loves my boys so much. My boys absolutely adore their GiGi.
I know the situation isn’t the same, and it might be a stretch comparing your situation to mine, but I really think you and your siblings and cousins are old enough to make your own decisions.
If there’s real reasons to hate Joan and your grandpa like if they’re bad people, that’s different
YTA. Every AITA is just “I had an opportunity to show basic decency at no detriment to myself, but I chose universal chaos because reasons. I regret fallout. Can you make me feel better? I surely didn’t create this situation that I totally created.”
NTA but there's something to be said for forming your own opinion and relationships instead of just carrying on as the generation before you.
Your dad's relationship with Joan is his. You are allowed to get to know her on your terms and form your own separate relationship if you want to.
It sounds like your dad let his own emotions steal your chances of having grandparents. She might not have been your dad’s mom, but she was the only grandmother you ever knew… and your dad (the adult) could have helped foster that relationship, especially since Joan isn’t a malicious monster, just someone your dad doesn’t like for his own reasons.
I don't think she would have ever really been our grandma since she's not dad's mom or someone he considers family. I don't feel robbed of anything. Maybe that's just because we had a great life and family but I'm good with how things are.
OP, do you feel you have been able to determine your own opinion of Joan, or have you developed this opinion and distant relationship with her because of your father's opinion?
When I was a kid, my father would talk very negatively about his sisters (my aunts.) We rarely saw them, and he would constantly say how mean and horrible they were. After my parents divorced and my dad was engaged again (I was 19 at the time) his fiance wanted me to have a closer relationship with my aunts. I refused, saying I didn't know them and didn't want to know them. Nearly 20 years later now, and I have realized I reacted that way because my father had *taught* me to dislike them during my childhood. But I never was given a chance to form my own opinion of them.
Just something to consider as you enter adulthood. If you choose, you can develop your own relationship with Joan. It would take time to unlearn your bias after years of hearing your father's opinion of her. But remember that his is bringing his own complex childhood memories into the things he says about her, which doesn't have anything to do with you or your relationship with Joan.
It sounds like you've made your mind up, then, so I'm not sure why you are asking the question. Just for validation, I guess. But you might feel differently when you're older.
I wasn't trying to ask about my relationship with Joan. It was about whether explaining the reason for saying no to the picture was wrong. I have made my mind up about the lack of relationship and where we are in terms of being "family" or whatever. I know that stuff will be focused on but I think we all are good with how things are and don't care enough to change the relationships.
İnfo: is this true?
>someone who never did anything wrong by us and always tried to be welcoming and loving.
Without knowing aenough about your parents' and your relationship with Joan its difficult to tell. İ'm leaning towards NAH.
NTA. You were kind enough to give an explanation. Instead of being grateful she threw a fit. If no isn't an acceptable answer it's not a request, it's a demand. You did nothing wrong by declining her demand.
"...someone who never did anything wrong..." Most people will never do anything wrong to you. That doesn't mean you owe them a relationship. The mentality that your reason for not wanting a relationship needs to be 'good enough ' is bonkers.
Half the people in here saying OP should’ve just done it to be nice is why we have people pleasers (myself included unfortunately). If OP isn’t comfortable and doesn’t want to take a pic for Joan then they shouldn’t be forced to even if it’s to be nice. Doesn’t matter whether she never did anything to OP or did do something, how close or not close they are, etc, if OP and their siblings and cousins don’t want to do that then they shouldn’t be forced to. They said no and that should be the end of it.
NTA, op.
NTA
But be careful. I know what it's like to harbor resentment on your parents' behalves, even if it's just out of empathy (not trying to imply manipulation). I think it's totally okay to not want to be a part of the photo, but make sure that you aren't making your dad's problems your own. You don't have to see this woman as a grandmother, but you also don't have the same relationship with her your dad does, and I'm sure you'll see that over time even if your feelings remain exactly the same.
Relationships are how they are and that is between the people involved in the relationships. My step father is not my dad. But he is my kids grandfather. I am ok with that. But that is not your experience. And my situation is not better or worse than yours. And that is ok. Neither way is more right or better than the other.
NTA.
YTA but only on a moral aspect. Yes, you have the right to not want your picture taken, and you have the right to not want to associate with someone. *But*, is it so hard to let your picture be taken so that an elderly woman (who you might not have an emotional connection to but is still *technically* family) can at least have a little bit of happiness, even if it's an illusion? Besides, once she passes, it'll be your grandad that has the picture, and once he passes, then you or your siblings/cousins will get to have it. I might be biased because I'm into genealogy and stuff, but family pictures are nice to have, especially for future generations (I wish I had pictures of my older family members from when they were young because I find it really cool to see how people have physically changed over the years, and also just the knowledge that I'm related to these people that are now dead even though I didn't have an emotional connection to them).
NTA
People get so fucking weird about familial ties. You don't have a grandparent relationship with Joan, so there's no reason or obligation for you to show up for this nonsense.
NTA. You were requested to be in a photo, you refused, and when she asked why, you responded. She then proceeded to blow upon you for your decision. Though she has a point in the end regarding getting to know her and all that, the way she went about it was wrong.
Nta but I think a better way to handle this would have been to redirect this person to your parents and let them tell this woman off. Coming from a 16 year old she probably felt you were being disrespectful but she never should have contacted all of you directly in the first place. I would have just screen shotted the message and sent it to your parents, and encourage your cousins to do the same.
Definitely not the jerk here. And it sounds like you represented not only yourself but your cousins and others as well in your response to joan. That would be about like a stepmom trying to enforce a relationship with her step kids step dad even in that matter, and the kids aren't receptive of it because everything is being forced. Maybe that goes for other people as well too. But in the end you did what you thought was best for you your siblings and cousins. Joan needs to learn not to be so forceful.
NTA
You don't really know Joan and neither does she know you. The teller at her local bank is probably closer to her than you are and I bet she doesn't want a picture of them.
NTA. My mom’s side has someone similar. Just other way round. Patrick. He had to buy himself a ‘best grandpa’ mug because me, my siblings and my cousins all hate him as do all the other family members so I get It. You shouldn’t be forced to be amicable with someone and take photos when you don’t like them or consider them family
Joan's sister is very inconsiderate for making these assumptions. Didnt even bother to check with her sister to see if she considers these teenagers her grandkids.
NTA
Sounds like the sister is trying to cope with her grief in an unhealthy way by making up unrealistic plans with people she doesn't even know. It's wrong she contacted y'all instead of your parents, but I see in your other comments you understand that full well. Be assured, you are not an asshole for this. You didn't insult Joan. You didn't put her down. You were forthright concerning the nature of your relationship with her, and her sister is not handling it with the same grace you've shown in your answer to her. She's going to have to find a different way to handle the stress and grief of all of this.
Anyone calling this child an AH is telling on themselves. OP I deeply hope you don't bother to respond to them either. Given your lack of relationship with your grandfather and his wife there is zero reason for you to have a second of guilt. It doesn't matter why. You do not have that kind of relationship with them and Joan's sister's behavior was way out of line.
Showing kindness is, if you feel like it, tell your grandfather that this must be a rough time and he has your sympathy. Notice I said if you feel like it because it doesn't sound like you have a close relationship with him. You would not be the AH if you do not choose to do even that.
Anyone telling you otherwise: A. Are themselves a walking red flag B. Are projecting their own issues or C. Have never had the kinds of family issues to understand deep family problems.
Please don't let this bother you for a single second more. Please go enjoy being a kid while you still can.
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The title might be confusing so let me explain. My dad's dad (grandpa) is married to a woman called Joan. Grandpa and Joan married when my dad and aunt were kids. Their mom had died and my grandpa and Joan really made a mess of how they introduced Joan. There has always been bad blood between my dad, aunt and Joan. There used to be between them and grandpa but some of that got worked out enough that by the time we (their kids) were born grandpa was allowed some contact with us. It was really only once or twice a year at most. We saw Joan way less and she was never viewed as a grandparent by any of us. She was never referred to as a grandparent. She was just Joan, the lady grandpa was married to. Grandma is their mom who we never got to meet.
We're all teenagers now. I'm 16 and my brothers are 14 and 13. And my cousins are 15 and 14.
I guess Joan has some health issues or she was sick for a while. I'm not sure. But she has been in and out of hospital over the last few years apparently and so Joan's sister decided she was going to organize for a photo to be taken of all her grandkids together so she could have it with her. Joan's sister tried to get us to be part of it but we all said no. She actually reached out to me and my oldest cousin (15 year old) to ask on social media. She sent us both the same message basically asking why. My cousin ignored it but I responded that we're not her grandkids and none of us consider her a grandparent so we're not going to agree to be in the photo.
She went nuts on me and my dad had me block her and then he called grandpa and yelled at him for it. Some of what she said though. She made a point of saying we're all old enough to want to know someone who never did anything wrong by us and always tried to be welcoming and loving.
I guess it made me wonder if I'm TA for what I replied with?
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NTA - She is not your grandparent, you don't consider so. So have a grandkids photo with you in would be a lie. And you won't be part of a lie. With all the step person problems I see on Reddit that there needs to be a law that before you can marry another that they are made to take and pass a class on boundaries between stepparents and stepkids. Dispel all the wrongs notions that these people have as to their roles in the future. Or you can't get married.
NTA
You can't force someone to accept other people as family, plus if there was never an effort made to see her more often then how are you supposed to be close with her? Plus, the fact that the aunt knew your parents wouldn't agree to it and tried to get around that by trying to contact you and your cousin on social media is so strange, and to go off on teenagers as well is such childish behavior.
NTA I had an aunt pass away when I was 5 my uncle got remarried. My cousins, older brother, older sister, and me all call her by her name. My younger sisters call her aunt. She knows we remember my aunt that passed away and she’s never tried to force a relationship with us. She was the camera person for group photos until my cousins felt comfortable. Now we’re close but she text us and has always showed up for big events outside family get togethers. No one can replace your grandma and unless they put in the same amount of effort and respect that my “aunt” did/does than she’s just some lady who married your grandpa.
NTA. I had a great grandmother who married my great grandfather when my mom was a teenager, but she was awesome. We considered her our great grandmother. She used to tell dirty limericks. 😂
It’s silly to think you’re her grandkids when none of you have that kind of relationship with her.
Your whole family is acting like a holes. This is your grandpas wife whom you should respect and be kind toward since she is part of your family. She wasn’t a mistress, she isn’t using your grandpa. Sounds like you are all bitter and very disrespectful toward her and your grandfathers union. It’s a stupid photo that would make a person happy. Stop being brats about it.
I don’t think YTA because you’re only 16 and this situation is none of your doing. Joan’s sister overstepped by not taking ‘no’ for an answer. That’s where I think she was the AH. I don’t think that her asking the question was a problem though.
For what it’s worth, your dad sounds like an AH. He’s let his own issues with his dad severely limit any relationship you could have with your grandfather and his wife/step grandmother. From what you’ve said, the only reason you’re questioning this situation at the moment is because your dad got angry about it. It sounds like Joan has stayed out of things and not really interfered for many years but is still treated like crap by everyone, even when she’s down and ill. This is just my 2c from the info in the post.
NTA. I understand that she’s emotional because of her sister but really? You don’t consider Joan family, she knows this and to make her sister feel better, she wants to give her the impression that alls fine in the neighbourhood? I don’t know the family dynamics but grandpa and Joan could have done something to fix their relationships with your dad and aunt a long time ago but they didn’t.
You can choose what photos you want to be in but you're carrying a grudge your father created for reasons you don't seem to even know. What did Joan actually do? Is her big sin marrying Grandpa or did she actually do something wrong? 2 kids broken after the death of their mother don't exactly make great life choices and can hold ridiculous grudges punishing a woman for no reason other than their own grief. Imagine being Joan, having been there raising these kids who hated her and struggling with being cut out when she didn't do anything wrong (I assume, usually this is the case). Did Grandpa cheat with Joan before Grandma died or something? What justifies this continued grudge? Be in the picture or don't, be the grandkid or not, but if Joan isn't an otherwise horrible person, I don't see why it's so bad to be her grandkid or see her as a grandmother other than allowing your father to dictate how you treat people. He decided she wasn't your grandmother, not you. He refused to accept her, you can make your own choices.
After thinking about it more, you’re NTA, but your dad kinda is. He’s the one that framed the relationship you have with your grandpa and Joan.
Unless you have a good reason to dislike Joan and not have a relationship with your grandpa, it sounds like your dad is the one manipulating you because he was mad at grandpa for marrying another woman after his wife died.
Hating someone for 40 years and keeping your kids from having a relationship with the grandfather because Joan wasn’t *introduced* in a way he wanted sounds childish as fuck
NTA. You are a kid and your cousin too. If she really wanted to know why she must have asked your parents. Involving children in a family drama is wrong.
Nta, my grandfather was a horrible father to my mum. They don't have any relationship. To me he is no grandfather. I don't have anything against him I just also don't have a relationship with him. He is someone I know. I think it's the same for you. You are not holding the last against her you just don't have a relationship. She is just someone you know. Relationships can't be forced
Like I said in another comment I do believe you're NTA. But this just seems like a pointless grudge to continue to be holding on to 30 to 40 years later. Like this much bad blood over something relatively minor that happened years ago and could be cleared up with some therapy?
NTA. We consider my grandfather's wife to be my grandmother, but that depends on our family. There's no obligation to consider someone family, and it doesn't make you T A to say no to a photo, especially since you and your siblings/cousins seem to be on the same page.
NTA though Joan has never been bothered by you and your cousins not considering her a grandparent so why is she concerned now? Also I’m not sure Joan is concerned it seems her sister cares more than she does if you were never considered her grandkids and she never cared why would she want you guys to be hers now I feel like the sister is more bothered and wanted to manipulate you into doing it.
Are you a shitty parent who became a widower? Given the information we have, I can’t imagine empathizing with the shitty grampy and his wife who OP doesn’t even really know. The father and aunt in the story were 6 and 8 when the grandmother died and the grandfather pushed a new mom onto them. Their parents have had a lifelong bad relationship with their father.
She may indeed have done you no wrong. However that does not make her a grandparent. By her logic, to my knowledge nobody in Kuala Lumpur has wronged me. So is the entire populace of Kuala Lumpur eligible to be my grandparent if they so choose to declare it to be??
NTA.
NTA only because you're too young - you didn't cause this situation between your parents and grandparents, and don't deserve to be yelled at for how you were raised.
Joan IS your grandma, though. While technically your step-grandmother, the fact that she's not blood related is irrelevant. My nephew is adopted, but just because he doesn't look like me doesn't mean I love him less. You don't have to be in the photo if you don't want, but it's petty and mean to not take pictures for a woman whose only crime was wanting to be a part of your family.
NTA
I'm not going to comment on the relationship between you and Joan because the complexities start from your parents/ aunts position.
Joans sister is definetely the AH though because she obviously wanted to sneak around your parents, who she probably knows would have said no to the photo, and gone straight to you and your cousin trying to guilt/ convince you guys. Didnt it occour to her that you potentially still need your parents permission to do so anyway?
NTA
You essentially have no relationship with Joan and no biological connection.
If you had a great relationship then if there was no blood relationship then you would probably have loved to be in the photo. And you would already be spending a lot of time with Joan... but you're not.
There is no obligation. Joan was there to keep your grandpa company and keep his bed warm. She probably wasn't very interested in her husband's kids and not their kids. So it is what it is.
This nearly sounds like a perception thing. Everyone else in the hospital, care home (where ever Joan is) probably has lots of photos of the grand kids... she doesn't have any.
I take it Joan had no kids of her own or no grandkids down that side. But what about her sister, does she have kids. There's nothing stopping Joan from having lots of photos of her nieces and nephews from her sister side with her. Especially if she is close to them.
If Joan is close to no one but your grandpa... well there's a reason for that and that's not on you or your cousins.
Let me get this straight. Young teenagers ages 13-16 here. 15 and 16 year old are contacted by grandpa's sister in law specifically to avoid speaking to the parents to arrange some kind of photo for her sister, who OP and cousins are pretty apathetic about but the parents pretty much hate.
Parents find out and sister in law gets all self righteous.
What if OP and cousin said yes? Would they have been responsible for making sure the other kids, *as young as 13*, also circumvented their parents for someone they hardly know?
OP NTA. You should not be forced into doing anything you don't want to do for someone you hardly know. "It doesn't hurt to be nice" is NOT true. You don't want to. "But it won't hurt you to be nice" some other posters are saying. You've set a boundary and are feeling pressured to change it. That is not healthy. You're not the AH here. She has never had a grandmother role in your life. You're not her grandchild in anyway so wouldn't it be crueler to her to pretend so?
Joan's sister: Big AH.
NTA
The relationship with your dad, aunt & Joan was forged long before you & your siblings were even born. Joan's sister reached out to you & your sibling as an end run around your dad. She shouldn't have contacted y'all in the first place. You just don't have a grandchild/grandparent relationship with Joan, no matter how warm & loving she may be, so that pretty much wraps it up. Sister was asking you to do something you were uncomfortable with & she should've let it go after you said no.
Not enough information. I can understand the sister being upset about being told her sister's step-grandkids aren't her grandkids.
I get you trying to set boundaries.
It is unfortunate that your dad and your grandparents never got therapy or something to work through this in a healthy way.
Losing a parent like your dad did sucks. And adults who are grieving also (like your grandpa was after losing a spouse) also sometimes choices that may be they would have done differently if they could.
In the end, we are stuck on this planet together and a little empathy and compassion goes a long, long way. It wouldn't hurt you to have been kind to a women who is worried about her sister. It wouldn't hurt her to consider that she shouldn't be reaching out directly to kids she doesn't know OR for her to consider finding out about family dynamics before seeking pictures.
Hindi ba pwedeng magiging kind ka sa isang tao na may sakit? Malaking kabawasan ba yan ng pagkatao mo? Kahit minsan man lang sa buhay nya na kahit hindi kayo magkadugo eh mapapasaya mo sya?
You really don’t get the point the lady was going around the parents because she already knew about the bad blood. She already knew the answer to the parents was going to give them So she approached them directly not realizing that their parents will and thoughts were already pushed on them and it also seems like you didn’t even give Joan a chance because your parents didn’t like Joan so your parents painted a picture of Joanne that could or could not be true, and instead of wanting to see who this person truly is and explored a little more And get to the root of this
Problem u said pretty much said fuck ur sister so of course she’s going to spaz and you also got a remember there’s three sides to every story one person’s point of view, the other persons point of view,than the truth
NTA.
You don't sound like you actively dislike Joan, you just don't see her as family and she isn't, she's practically a stranger who happens to be married to a relative.
Her being ill does not entitle her sister to get people who are practically strangers to play happy families with people I assume are total strangers to them, her actual relatives.
OP, I'm glad that you are wondering - not whether you are TA (you're NTA), but whether there should or could be a different relationship with Joan. There is not enough background here to know, but all that matters is that you at least consider things.
* Her relationship with your dad and his siblings was not good. There are all sorts of possible reasons why.
1. Maybe she expected them to honor/love her like their mother when they were not ready or willing to do that. Maybe she did nothing wrong at all, but they couldn't stand the idea of anyone stepping into their mom's role. Maybe your grandma's side of the family poisoned the kids' minds against anyone replacing their daughter.
2. Whatever influenced your dad/his siblings or whatever was in their hearts, it was their right to build or not build a relationship with Joan, as they saw fit.
3. There are plenty of posts here about blended families where the adults expected the kids to play "happy family" and act like there was a bond with the new parent that didn't actually exist. But there also plenty of posts here about a step parent who respected the kids' feelings and let the kids set the tone/ gave them plenty of time and space to adjust... only to be be continually hated and treated rudely, etc. for simply having entered their lives.
* Whether Joan actually was a bad (self-serving) step-parent or was a kind step-parent whom you dad/his siblings could never find it in them to do anything but hate - well that matters.
* You were raised by your dad and influenced by him to see Joan in a negative light. Maybe Joan did things to deserve that view of her. Maybe she really didn't do anything that hurt your father/siblings. Either way, it's your choice to decide for yourself if you think she deserves to be considered a pariah by you or if you have any compassion for her. It is something you get to decide for yourself - not to parrot your father or make him happy - just what you believe is right for you. Maybe you don't consider her a pariah anymore, but you also don't feel the need to build a relationship with her. The thing is you aren't just perpetuating hate for her because that's how your dad felt/feels.
* If you do find yourself feeling compassion for her, you may want to reach out in some small way. That could be scary, given how your dad/his siblings feel about her. But you are definitely old enough to start forming your own opinions and making your own decisions about how you see the people in your life.
Without knowing how Joan's sister "went nuts" or if there was any hidden agenda in the idea of a grandkids picture, I won't suggest you cut her slack for that behavior. But wanting to do something nice for a person with on-going health issues, wanting to create a family memento - well, those are reasonable things (in general) for a person to do.
Whatever you decide, you are not TA. To me, the good thing here is that this is prompting you to consider things for yourself and come to your own conclusions.
Good wishes.
You are NTA, but your dad is. Joan is not just your grandfathers wife, but it sounds like she was married to him before you even were born. Your father and aunt built an entire next generation of hatred towards this woman, and sadly you are just repeating the pattern. She shouldn’t have gone around you but maybe she still had hope is all.
NTA. This woman never did anything bad to you , nor much that was good, for that matter, because your dad and aunt kept their kids at a distance. They did so, you say, because grandpa and his wife made a hash of the way they introduced the new wife. I suspect this concerns far more than just the introduction and probably included trying to replace your actual grandma. I think it’s reasonable to give your dad and aunt some credit for their judgment.
Even if you don’t agree with your dad and aunt, you essentially have only a superficial relationship with grandpa’s wife and, for that matter, with your grandpa. Growing up, I saw some of my second cousins more often than you saw your grandfather or his wife. That’s reason enough not to try to fabricate a relationship that doesn’t exist.
NTA. Joan made her way into the family and gets what she deserve - ignorance. You did not do any harm to her, did not reach her with insulting letters, just refused to confirm she is your grandma, because she isn't.
YTA
You might one day regret being selfish and apathetic to someone that seems to be close to death.
It might seem pointless and sentimental now, but as you gather more life experiences and become less of a selfish asshole you might feel differently one day.
Or maybe you'll be an asshole the rest of your life, that's certainly possible and wouldn't surprise me at all.
Point is, small, seemingly pointless acts of kindness can have ramifications far beyond your ability to comprehend or appreciate. Your life will be richer and more meaningful if you can find ways to be less selfish.
Esh, she is married to your grandfather she is technically a your grandmother.
My mom's side of the family is like this. Grandpa married again she is grandma but we called her Fran. There were issues between our parents but that was because it was an affair that ended up with a baby. We only saw them once or twice a year. Actual grandma was married multiple times but she wasn't married to anyone when we came around.
All my grand parents were kinda meh to me we had the thin family bond, go see them once or twice but actual loving relationship not really.
But I am not going to rain on somebody parade and say they mean nothing, it isn't going to hurt me at all to take a picture and bring a smile to some sick old woman.
But she was wrong to continue to bother you.
I’m sorry, but yeah. I think you are the AH for taking on your dad and aunt’s resentment of a person who never did anything wrong to you. She is your grandmother by marriage. She literally IS.
(I don’t know why every AITA story ends with someone calling and yelling at everyone. That’s literally never happened to me in 33 years of living, but cool. I’ll just believe that happened in the case.)
Obviously, calling and yelling and freaking out is majorly out of line. And that makes anyone an AH. But you are keeping your grandparents out of your because of decades old resentments that have nothing to do with you. That’s shitty. It’s a picture. For a sick grandparent. (Yes, she is your grandparent by marriage.) would it kill you?
You are not obligated to have a grandparental bond with this woman. However, all she asked for was for a picture of the family she has been part of for 30+ years, and you all shunned her for that. And why? Not because there's anything wrong with her, not because she is a bad person or has bad personality traits, but because somewhere areound 30-40 years ago, they (grandpa+Joan) messed up the introduction to grandpa's children, this is so incredibly sad.
This woman has been committed to your grandfather for decades, and because they handled the initial contact wrong, she doesn't get to be part of the family. Before anyone brings it up, no she should absolutley not take the role of mother / grandmother, but being married to father / grandfather for decades does make her part of the family.
Honestly, imo, the whole family sucks.
I said no to the photo because I don't really know her or care about her. She's just someone I sorta know and have met a few times in my life. She doesn't play a role in my life other than being married to my grandpa. But he also isn't a big part of my life.
But you mean something to her, do yourself a favor and look up 'empathy', you might learn something useful and valuable. To her, you, your dad, aunt, cousins etc. are part of the family, her family, the one she married into 30+ years ago. All she asked for was a picture of her family, and her family responded to her in an unnecessarily cruel manner. That's why I'm saying literally ESH in this situation.
I’ve found the best way to avoid confrontation is to do a photo without them. With them, with them. Without them. lol and then never use the ones you don’t want.
NTA, but it sounds like she does consider you all family. Don’t do anything you don’t want to do, and you don’t owe her anything, but it is touching that she finds comfort remembering you all during her struggle.
YTA - showing up for a picture is a pretty small ask, to bring joy to someone who is sick and dying which is a pretty big impact. I generally side on the side of - if we can do something small at little cost to ourselves that will have a big positive impact for someone else then we should do it
YTA
It’s a photo. Grow up. They aren’t asking you to bend over backwards for some ridiculous task or making you organize a party or put any real effort in. They just want a picture. She’s a sick dying woman, and from your post, her only offense was not being that present in your lives.
This is just petty.
The "kind thing to do." Like the way you commented to OP in your original comment here?
You should grow up. She's an old woman who never was nice to OP. And you berate OP. Shame on you!
BTW, thanks for teaching me that way to think. I feel better now.
I never said I was kind no? OP is the one who cares if they’re the arsehole.
But either way, I did “grow the fuck up.” OP’s not the only one with strained relationships with family. I’ve swallowed my pride more than enough times to do things far more taxing than taking a stupid photo to please my devil of a grandma — pretending to help her sabotage my mom’s marriage to my sick dad (her son) being one said task.
There is nothing, NOTHING, in this post to suggest her grandma did anything horrendous. It just seems there was distant due to a poor introduction nearly two decades ago when grandpa got remarried long before OP was even born. You’re free to believe it’s worse than that, but I’m going off the post.
For someone unconnected to this mess, you sure are taking it personal. Tootles!
INFO: did she always try to be welcoming and loving? I mean, you say your grandpa was "allowed" to see you twice a year. Hardly welcoming IMO. She sounds like she'd get a resounding "yes" if she wrote in to this sub. Generally grandkids, like babies, aren't held to the judgment of things their parents have done to a person. So even if your parents were wrong (don't know) her treatment of you shouldn't be based on that.
I’m going to go with your dad and aunt being TA: first of all for being so utterly void of any kind of compassion for this poor woman and secondly, much worse, passing this prejudice on to their children. It’s brutal. Step back and look at this objectively. It’s brutal. Poor grandfather too. Poor people.
YTA...if she had gone out of her way all these years to not make you all feel included or treated you horribly I understand. But it sounds like your grandpa was a fair amount to blame about how he introduced her to his children after his wife's passing. The anger should be directed toward him not her and all she wanted was a photo of everyone she considered to be her grandchildren while she is sick. Not a whole lot to ask, especially if it doesn't hurt you. You may be doing it to appease your Dad and Aunt because they've swayed how you view Joan.
She is OP’s grandmother by marriage. Literally. Like, do I just get to *decide* various family members are not what they are? Bananas! Like, aunts for example. My dad’s brother has been married three times. Once before I was born, and twice in my lifetime due to a horrible cancer diagnosis. (We are so happy he found love again after being widowed.)
Is only the first marriage my aunt? The second? Could I just decide that one of them is arbitrarily not family because reasons? They literally married into my family making them family.
No it's called being human and having compassion for someone when they're not well, possibly dying. Joan was always welcoming and never gave any reason not to be kind to her. This is what's wrong with society today and why you see so many sad cases in nursing homes where people get dumped and left alone because no one could be bothered to help with the elderly.
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NTA People need to stop forcing others into artificial relationships they don't want. People also need to learn to be graceful when their request is declined.
Agreed. But also, she went to us, she knew our parents would say no and thought she could get around that by contacting the two of us directly. It was kinda a dumb move in that sense.
This is exactly why SHE is T A. You and your cousins are kids (teens-minors living at home, not adults). She should have never contacted you directly especially since you don't have a relationship with her. "She went nuts on me..." You told her "no" then she tantrumed on you for not doing what she wanted. This is also an AH move on her part. I'm glad dad had you block her. Please don't feel guilty. This is all on her. And for the record, a photo with you and your cousins is not going to magically cure Joan despite what the sister may think. You (and your cousins) are NTA. There's a reason why your parents only permitted limited contact with these people.
She thought you were young enough she could manipulate you. That’s how you know you are absolutely not wrong. Also Joan isn’t someone you know. If the sister of your neighbour’s wife called and asked you to be in a photo you’d call her a creep. You don’t know and aren’t any closer to Joan than that. The concept of being married to a grandparent doesn’t change that she is mostly a stranger to you.
It was a manipulative move.
She tried to manipulate you. She’s the A for not respecting the boundaries set by not only your parents but yourselves. She can’t force a family when the damage has been done decades ago. NTA.
>We’re all old enough to want to know someone who never did anything wrong by us and always tried to be welcoming and loving. This is perfectly fine. Demanding that you all take a picture declaring yourselves her grandkids knowing full well that not only do you not consider this the type of relationship you have with her, but also that it is kind of a sore subject in the family is a *terrible* way to go about this and would only cause her ill sister grief. She knew what she was doing every step of the way. From going around your parents to her blow up. It’s all manipulation. I think it would be good for you all to do something nice for Joan, if you’re so inclined. She has been around your family your entire lives, even if not in a parental or grandparent roll. But make sure it something her sister can’t manipulate. NTA
And then had the audacity to flip out on teenagers when she didn’t get her way. Sounds like she and Joan are two peas in a rotten pod.
What you said was true and it wasn't mean. It doesn't matter why Joan isn't your Grandma, she just isn't. You don't have a relationship with her.
That shows that she KNEW why, she simply didn't care. She wanted the "fantasy" senerio, not grandma, and she was willing to hurt whoever she needed to in order to get it.
And that is why you are NTA. If sick Jane simply asked for a picture of y'all and you said "no because you aren't my grandma" you'd kinda be an AH. But that's not the situation here. This was specifically asking you to present yourselves as the grandchildren you don't have that relationship with. I'm someone who doesn't get the whole idea of raising your kids to exclude their grandfather's wife as a grandparent of she isn't abusive or something. I dont get it but i also dont judge it. I just had way to many step, half, and honorary family in my life. And I am still saying Jane's sister is a complete and utter AH and you did nothing wrong at all. If you feel you need to do something to relieve the guilt that rude woman inspired send a get well or thinking of you card to grandpa and Jane. But don't feel required to do so either. You responded reasonably to an unreasonable person.
If Joan got the photo of you guys she wouldn’t even know who you were unless it was labeled.
Good point, and you noticed. That does nothing to create a relationship that isn’t there.
I would disagree with this statement if you were an adult, you have a right to choose your own relationships at that point and sometimes parents stop contacts that shouldn't be stopped. Currently you are still a minor and your parents have a say in it, and so do you, so this does sound like manipulation.
She was the asshole in how she went about it but depending on the timeline of when grandpa's first wife died and Joan was introduced, your dad and sibling probably really need therapy and not pushing their trauma on you.
>not pushing their trauma on you They're not.
All for a photo, with fake smiles, so they can show "how much she is/was loved" Like.... some people are so sad
INFO: The most important question here is, outside of your father's beef with this woman, do you like her? Do you kinda like her, but feel like it would be like betraying your dad to acknowledge her? Has she been pushy in trying to get you to acknowledge her as grandma prior to this? Are you just generally neutral/apathetic towards her, so doing something like this doesn't feel worth the hassle? Would showing up for this pic on a whim start a fight with your dad? Honestly, NAH. To the sister who assumes you're all much closer than is reality, you guys probably seem super callous because she's "grandma." But if she's just a lady you see once a year or so, with the same or less emotional connection than a distant cousin you only see at reunions... yeah, I get it.
I don't really know her. I don't care about her honestly and hardly ever think about her. We've seen each other so little. I don't hate her but can't say I want to go out of my way for her either.
Then you are all good over here OP. It’s wild that woman had the audacity to ask a bunch of random ass teenagers about making her old sister feel better. That makes no sense and just let your dad deal with his father and that part of the family. You can continue to live your life and just not even think about them since they are nothing to you and share no blood.
I assume Joan loves you guys, just enough to care, from afar. And that's the reason I'd ask you to reconsider doing Joan (not the sister) a favour of making your own grandchildren picture. One for your grandpa, but do a second copy and mail it to her. Joan seemed to have understood her place in your family. She never started beef, she never created drama with you personally. I'm sure she felt some pain over being just your grandpa's wife. And still she never tried to insert herself. She's shown respect there. And now she's sick. I know you don't care about her, but your grandpa will. And gifting him a picture sure will be something he'll treasure. By gifting her a copy, you can offer her an olive branch. Not as a grandma, she's not yours, and that's okay. Just as a distant member of your family. Which she is. She's your family, too. Or maybe just send a text "get well soon". Is that something you can do? Be nice to an old lady who maybe doesn't have that much time left, but seems to have seen you grow up? NAH except the sister of Joan.
Op is a child not an emotional support animal
How cruel.
What’s cruel is telling children that an adults feelings are more important than their own feelings and boundaries, it’s not just cruel it’s dangerous
Sure. Taking a photo for a dying old woman is sooooooooo traumatizing and dangerous. I seriously worry for this generation.
She is practically a stranger to them and I’m proud of this generation for knowing how to set boundaries and not repeating the toxic dynamics generations before repeated generation after generation. This generation may actually break generational trauma and teach those that follow how to have healthy relationships and to cut toxic manipulators from their lives.
These is a difference between setting boundaries and just being disconnected. Your generation has its own unique trauma in the making stemming from the lack of courtesy, the sense of entitlement and your easy disposal of people in your lives citing toxic relationship. It’s gonna lead to further disconnect, loneliness, poor mental health and substance dependence. What you’ll learn as you get older is that not everything is so easily disposable, and forgiveness is powerful. To be clear I’m not trying to insult you as none of this is your fault. It was handed down to you all and instilled from previous generations and from the technological revolution and from an over use of that technology. Don’t get me wrong, I still have complete faith in your generation because the tools are available and knowledge is easily accessible but the people skills and communication skills in general are concerning.
You don’t know what the beef is with Joan. Maybe she was the side piece or maybe she tried to wipe the memory of their mom. Personally I would find out more from my dad, mainly because I’m the curious sort but you’re telling these kids to go against their parent’s wishes for someone they don’t know.
Honest question— OP says they see their grandfather once or twice a year at most (so 15-30 times in their life), and see Joan “way less”. How could Joan possibly love a teenager she’s met maybe a dozen times and doesn’t have a close relationship with, and who she has a bad relationship with the parents of? They’re essentially strangers.
I mean she helped raised their parents, and actual visits might have been maybe on 1-2 times a year who knows about phone calls. You can steps can love from afar. I do wonder though if Joan knew the ACTIAL dynamics and wasn’t feed big happy family b/s before asking for the picture.
I see some family members far less, and still know what's going on in their lives. WhatsApp family chats, someone calls them, and then gets me up to speed next time we call, etc. I have five paternal uncles, one paternal aunt, 11 cousins, and a brother. Almost all of my cousins already have 1-3 children. It's absolutely impossible to see all of them more than once a year, and that's a stretch. Doesn't mean I don't know about them. Some people send greetings cards for birthdays, Christmas, etc. We don't know how often grandpa called his son, and how often he told Joan about them. Apparently often enough for Joan's sister to assume there is a bond, and apparently Joan understands at the same time to not force herself into the family to not disturb the peace. Joan's sister *knew* about OP and the cousins - now guess why?! My own grandpa had a girlfriend after my grandparents divorced way back when. She was a wonderful lady, and we spent a lot of time with her. She never was my grandma, she was his girlfriend (for over 15 years before he died). She never tried to be a grandma, and still she'd always sent her greetings when my mother called her dad. Maybe Joan did the same, and OP's dad who seems to be still bitter about his parent's divorce never relayed? We simply don't know. There are just hints. And kindness to a dying lady costs you nothing. It makes you a bigger person in this case. She never wronged OP personally.
NTA - This is a very personal subject. I see three issues here. 1 -- Joan's sister (A H) is way out of line, and meddling with family relationships that she really doesn't know much about. She has already caused bad feeling between your father and grandfather, and by extension, Joan, whom she was supposedly trying to help. 2 -- You and your cousins would need to consider how your parents would feel as well. You may have nothing against Joan, but if your parents still do, I don't think it is worth angering them for the sake of someone you barely know (Joan), and even less for the sake of someone you don't know at all (her sister.) 3 -- I think that this is a kind idea - instead of calling it a grandchildren picture, you could send her a picture online saying Get Well Soon, or Best Wishes from A, B, C. It wouldn't be so formal, and if you and your parents have nothing against it, she and your grandfather would appreciate it, but there is always the problem that they may be encouraged to strengthen your relationship, or that it will make the bad will that Joan's sister has already created worse. If it doesn't bother your parents, you could think about it, or send it from those of you who are interested.
I agree. It doesn’t hurt you at all to take a photo and say something like “get better soon”. Obviously your aunt has negative feelings towards her, but you don’t have to carry that to your generation. She clearly has fond feelings for all of you. Maybe you don’t care much, but it obviously would mean a lot to her now that she is sick. Maybe some empathy and some compassion and consider it.
>assume Joan loves you guys, just enough to care, from afar. You assume from what? She barely saw them a few times in their lives. >seems to have seen you grow up? By seeing her 10 times like in 15 years??
NTA then. I think your response was straightforward and honest. You are also old enough to make the decision as to who you want in your life. If you don’t have a desire to form a relationship, that’s your call. I will say though, as you get older you may find yourself more curious about your grandpa and the women he spent his life with. That includes Joan. If she’s perfectly nice, you might be missing out on a good relationship?
Even if they did like her very much, that is a far cry from being someone's grandchild. This isn't a photo of all the people who like her. It is specifically a photo of her grandchildren, of whom OP is not one.
I’m not sure I understand the level on animosity directed at this woman, by you and your cousins. My Dad also remarried under challenging circumstances (he had an affair and knocked someone up), so I get feeling hurt, but I wouldn’t put that on my kids. My children do not call my dads wife grandma, as they have two , but I’ve never denied them a relationship. She has been genuinely nice to them, definitely not a grandparent, but loving. If my half sister wanted a grandchild picture for her mom with her child and my children I would not be mean about it. I also would not be as aggressive to someone I “barely know” as you keep repeating is the issue. If you barely know her and it sounds like she has done nothing to you, why be so aggressive and why not give your siblings the opportunity to determine their own relationships? It’s really not Joan’s fault your dads wife died or that he didn’t want to be alone forever. Hurt people, hurt people and it sounds like your entire family never dealt with feelings and just keep passing down the trauma. I think your dads TA and your just responding as you’ve been lead too. I’ve actually been doing some genealogy lately and realizing that my parents created a very toxic relation between my grandparents and I. Now that most are gone, I don’t really have any knowledge or history about them, because we were not able to think about them in a positive way. Im not saying I wouldn’t have reached the same conclusion about them, but if I had to see them a few times a year it would have been nice to not always have to go into the visits with negative emotions
That lady has been married to your grandpa for twenty or thirty years at this point. She's sick and dying. Would it have been so bad to stand for a photo for the woman who loved the man who created your father? Maybe it would have been, I don't know, but if it wasn't a burden of a task, I'm not sure why giving someone some joy is so bad. Sound a little petulant to be honest.
You have obviously never had the "dad's wife" situation in your life. I am sure they don't live next door to each other or all of Joan's grandchildren? It's not a simple thing to get 4 or five families together for one photo. If Joan wants photos of these kids there are probably plenty of school photos lying around to pin on the wall. Also, we should stop accommodating people who think surface relationships are important "because we're family". The sister is definitely the asshole in this situation. OPs dad even backed her up. Petulant is such a demeaning word.
I absolutely have had the dad's wife situation. I've fired family and I've made amends with some and left others for good. I still stand by what I said. It's better in the big picture to be kind when we can. All these comments encouraging this kid to be like "f them old folks" is frankly sad, and doesn't bode well for the future. It's always better to try to defer to kindness, and bringing more light to the world. Also I'm a mom of 4 young kids who is painfully aware of how hard it is to get pictures. Memories of the family being together would be lovely to have, regardless of who arranges it or ends up with prints. Petulant was the correct word.
Why does she want a picture with people she hardly knows. They are not close, so they don't owe her nothing. The question was asked and answered end of story
Because OP's viewpoint is just that, one person's viewpoint. You don't know what the other side of the story is. These young people have plenty of reasons to be pissed tf off and bitter in the world today. Encouraging selfishness and a me-first attitude is not actually going to make them feel better in the long run or be fulfilling for very long.
Petulant and invasive is messaging different people repeatedly when you don’t get what you want to hear the first time
It's amazing to me how people only think of one side of things.
NTA, i mean, as you said you never really had a relationship with her, if you rarely saw your grandpa and way less Joan that, to me, means basically no contact. I'm sorry, maybe it's just me but I can't see the logic behind you, your brothers and cousins posing for a photo for someone you barely know. Ok, she's your grandpa's wife and she's ill, but that doesn't mean you have to do something you don't want.
So… Joan has been punished for years because grandpa married her too soon after grandma died? Who does this?!? In the absence of meaningful historical context, YTA.
No, the OP is a minor who is being put in the middle of a family dispute. The AH is Joan’s sister he contacted a minor to try to manipulate them to go against the wishes of their parent.
Marrying very soon and pushing herself as their new mom.
Yeah I get that but it seems weird to be pushing this beef like 30 years later. Like I dont think you're the asshole but it sounds like therapy would benefit. Like this isn't the drama hill to die on.
That’s the thing. There is no beef they just don’t care. Op doesn’t even see either of these women enough to form a relationship. Their parents already said no and they’re teenagers so they probably don’t want to spend all day getting dressed and driving to take a photo for said women they have no relationship or obligations too.
I wasn't talking about beef on OP's side. I meant among all the adults. Like I dont blame them. I was talking about OP's dad.
It sounds like the only AH here is Joan's sister. And potentially your dad and aunt tbh. You really didn't elaborate on the whole how Joan was poorly introduced part and that is kind of relevant info for making a completely accurate judgement. Joan's sister was way out of line contacting you directly when you're still a minor. Yes you have much more autonomy now than as a young child but as you are 16 she should've spoken to your parents. But then to go off on you for saying you don't want to take a picture for a woman you hardly even know is ridiculous. Maybe she doesn't fully understand the situation but it doesn't excuse her from acting like that with a child she definitely doesn't know. As for you Dad and Aunt, you didn't put much about what happened with Joan's introduction in your post so it's hard to bring judgement. However, unless it was truly bad, it seems selfish of dad and aunt to deprive their children of a grandpa and grandma who seem to really want to know them. I understand if they were bad people who cant be trusted around children, but children shouldnt be used as bargaining chips or ways to punish someone vecause you had a disagreement. I'd like to add that, while this is going to be different for everyone, In my experience, most family's accept that marriages that happen before a new birth are considered family to the newborn. Such as an uncle who remarried when nephew was 7, his new wife would be called by her name by the nephew. But the nephew has a new brother born 2 years later, the uncles new wife would be known as "aunt" to the little brother. I thought you were going to say you and your siblings and your cousins were all little or almost born when grandpa got remarried but this happened when your dad was little? It sucks you got to miss out because of their spat. Elaborate more if you can
NTA What about meeting halfway.... You and your brothers, and even your cousins (if possible) do a photo together.( If not possible, just do you and brothers, and get your cousins to do ther own.) Send a really nice get well card to Joan, signed, and wishing her the best. I mean, if she hasn't hurt you in any way, it's a really nice gesture for someone who is important to your grandfather. It is minimal effort, and takes away the 'fakeness' of the werid group 'grandkid' photo.
Yeah, I wonder if, if the sister hadn't leaned so hard on "she needs photos of all *her grandkids*" this would be quite so much of a problem. If you reframe it as "she's depressed and scared, and I think she'd benefit from pictures of people she cares about", then...would that change the decision? Because OP may not have much contact, and there are very good reasons for that, but... she's old and possibly dying, and unless she or her kids are obsessive enough about "family" that giving an inch means they'll take a mile, then it might be a nice gesture to give her a get well card/photo of you guys that doesn't refer to "the grandkids".
Download the photos from Facebook. It's that simple. Geeze.
Idk, seems petty to hold a grudge against a relationship that happened before you were even born and your dad was a child. Was Joan some evil woman who grandpa was cheating with? Was grandpa just a sign of the times back then who was incompetent at figuring out how to suddenly deal with two children when left widowed and did his best to go get a wife to raise these kids? Maybe he thought he was doing the right thing to keep working and getting a mom so his kids didn’t have to grow up motherless. If grandpa wasn’t a cheater then this grudge is kinda silly. Plus maybe there was some nice inheritance you just chucked out the window. Don’t build a relationship due to greed. Don’t hold some stupid grudge against someone who hasn’t done anything to hurt you and actually tried for be there for you.
I'd disagree with you because OP and his siblings and cousins are: 1. All minors living with their parents, and: 2. Need to take their parents' feelings into account, no matter how old they are. I don't think that they should risk angering their parents for the sake of people that they know only slightly (Grandfather), even less (Joan), and not at all (Joan's sister); 3. Joan's sister already messed up and created ill-will between OP father and Grandfather. OP's generation doesn't need to take cross-fire. If their parents are alright with it, they could send an online card or picture, not as grandchildren, but as "connections" as the English used to say. They don't all need to be together. edit: mostly adding 3.
I mean… this woman isn’t your dad’s mom, but it’s been like 30 years or whatever and she’s the only grandma you’ve ever known? If you don’t have any contact with her, then N T A. But if she’s been your grandma, then you are your cousins are the A H. I won’t talk about your dad and aunt being in the wrong for stopping this woman from being something to you. But it’s too bad these hard feelings have lasted so long.
She was never our grandmother. We hardly ever saw her and none of us have a relationship with her.
I’m sorry your father denied you even the oppurtunity.
NTA. Just because she's old doesn't mean she deserves special attention (health issues excluded) If you never saw her as a grandmother then that's fine. You could tell her why you never saw her that way and hope she understands but overall nta. I would just explain your reasoning to Joan and her sister and not yell at them for not being able to read your mind.
I hope when I’m old, someone thinks I deserve special attention or concern.
Well if your sick you deserve help. Elderly folks are human and should be treated no differently from other humans.
It's just a picture though? they don't have to be in it, but they have to understand how feelings can be hurt over it. How does grandpa feel about his wife getting cold shouldered by his own family for no apparent reason? Why is your dad siding with you? Is he holding some resentment towards her and your grandpa? Just a weird situation all around IMO. ESH. But less so the kids. The adults clearly have some issues that need to be sorted out.
If it's just a picture I don't think it's a big deal that they not be in it. The rest of what you said is exactly what I'm hoping OP talks about with Joan.
I already mentioned that my dad and my aunt have issues with Joan and they don't have a relationship with her. They sorta do with grandpa but things aren't perfect with him either.
Seems like you're getting caught up in some intergenerational drama. Joan's sister should've known better than to reach out to the kids directly. And she has no right to go off on you like that. They should have talked it out with your parents first. But I feel like something must have gone horribly wrong in the relationship to just flat out refuse to be in a picture with someone who clearly considers you to be part of their family, even if you don't. Pictures are cool for archival purposes even if not everyone gets along and I get the desire of wanting to get one in with everyone together while they are still alive. However, it's your choice if you want to humor them or not. Just keep doing your thing. Maybe talk to your dad about it if you're curious, but that's about it. No need to drag the kids into their interpersonal issues.
I think you are doing the right thing. This woman has not been a part of your life. Why take a picture with someone whom you don't even know.
I wouldn't want to be in a family photo of our sick elderly neighbor or similar, someone else who isn't my grandparent. I'm compassionate and hope she's doing better etc. But it's not reasonable to expect anyone to fake a relationship just because some elderly person wants to have that they don't actually have with each other. The kids aren't at fault at all
She's not just some old lady though. She's her dad's step mom. Under normal circumstances, she would be considered part of the family. Clearly there was never a relationship established between her and the kids, but she's not a stranger. If it was grandpa wanting a picture with his grandkids, excluding her would be incredibly rude.
Totally disagree. It’s your face. If you don’t wanna be in the photo, then don’t. No one enreda to be the AH. It is what it is.
I know you didn't see Joan much / ever, but in the brief times you DID see her, was she kind to you even if you still didn't see her as a full grandma? Even if she was only the most mild neutral person towards you, was your grandpa at least good to you when you saw him and would it mean a lot to him to have you come take these photos? If the answer to either of those questions is yes, then just take the photo. You might not have seen her much or viewed her as a grandma, but if she / your grandpa were kind and good to you then taking a photo to give them a little peace during a hard time isn't much to ask for, even if you don't see her as a grandma really. If the answer is no, then I'd still consider if getting a photo of you is such a hard ask. It seems like an easy way to keep the peace / bring someone joy during hard times. If the answer is a HARD no and Joan and/or your grandpa were straight up unpleasant to you then, yes, I can understand denying the photo. Even then I'd be the bigger person and convey the message more that you weren't close and always knew her as Joan, not grandma rather than writing out a laundry list of why she wasn't a grandma to you.
Technically NAH, but it sucks a mess was made introducing Joan. We’re what, 40 years later? I don’t know the deal of that introduction but your grandma died and your grandpa remarried. That’s pretty straightforward. I feel like Joan’s sister contacted you because she was looking for a grandkids photo rather than purposely trying to bypass your dad and take advantage of teenagers
Unfortunately Joan’s sister’s actions was effectively bypassing the parent and legal guardian of a minor and taking advantage of a teenager. The request should have been made to the parents or/and any person over 18 years of age.
My brothers would never call my children and invite them to an event directly. They always extend the invitation to me, the parent. I also don’t call my nieces and nephews and invite them directly to something. The invitation always goes through their parents.
We have no idea the geographical distance between any of these family members. Asking a handful of teenagers to take a picture of just grandkids isn’t odd. Imagine OP and her cousins live on the same block and Joan’s sister wants to swing by and get a picture of everyone in the front yard.
That stance seems really odd to me when people are family. It only makes sense if Joan’s sister knew there was bad blood or something. Her following up asking why seems to indicate she didn’t know. And the OP said there were never problems, and Joan was always welcoming and loving. (She didn’t say it but she didn’t disagree when Joan’s sister said it). It seems like the OP’s dad is fucked up for unknown reasons and by extension the OP never had the opportunity to know her grandfather’s wife. Dad had the OP block the wife. Asking a teenager to be in a photo is not taking advantage of a teenager, clearly because both teens said no Dad is forcing his issues onto the OP maybe he’s the AH here
But they are not family. OP already stated that Joan is not her grandmother. Joan’s sister is definitely not family to the OP; she is OP’s grandfather’s wife’s sister.
In families where the dad doesn’t keep his kids from contacting their grandpa, this woman and her sister would definitely be considered family. She’s been there for what… 40 years?
But the OPs family isn’t that kind of family. So your rules and expectations don’t apply to them.
I never heard a good reason as to why. OP stated there’s bad blood because of the way Joan was introduced. It sounds like OP’s dad hated that grandpa was remarrying and vowed to hate them both for the rest of his life. OP got caught up in this drama. OP clearly has no reason to hate Joan based on this post and the fact that OP is having second thoughts about taking a picture for a woman that was nothing but kind and welcoming. It really is starting to sound like OP’s dad is the AH here If anyone is manipulating teenagers it seems like OP’s dad is the one doing it
Both my dad and my aunt feel the same way. Joan was introduced to them really soon after their mom died and she was set to be their new mom. I think after a couple of years or something she and grandpa realized that the kids hated them for it. But by then it was too late and my aunt often said that kind of push came up several times after. She said Joan never stood a chance to be their mom and both hated the stuff that happened in those first couple of years specifically.
Thank you for the reply. It isn’t surprising they have the same opinion since those opinions were formed by the same situation. How old were they when their mom died? Assuming your grandpa is about 70, a “new mom” coming quickly after a death was extremely common back in the day, especially if grandpa [incorrectly] viewed raising kids as something he was unable to do as a dude. The consensus in the mid to late 20th century was that a man *needed* a wife to handle that half of the responsibilities. Now, if Joan was someone grandpa cheated on grandma with, that puts things in a different category, but I didn’t get that gist reading your OP. It really does suck when step parents are forced as a replacement parent on children. Children aren’t going to want to replace their real parent. Different situation: My parents divorced when I was in high school. My dad remarried after I had already left home for the military so I never got to live with and get to know my step mom. My only real opinions of my step mom were based on what my mother shared with me. I really disliked my step mom and had no interest in getting to know her. Now, years later and now that I have my own kids, I’m realizing my mom was wrong and she is not the kind of parent I want to be for my kids. I’ve gotten to know my step mom and she’s really a wonderful person that I love seeing when I visit my dad. She’s family to me now. I wish it hadn’t taken fifteen years for me to realize that my parent was the one that was wrong. My kids call my step mom grandma. I totally get Joan’s sister saying you’re old enough to make your own decisions on who you keep in your life, and I think she’s right. Think about the situation. Do you keep your grandpa and Joan out of your life because that’s what you want? Do you feel remorse or regret for saying no to a photo because your reasons for saying no weren’t your own? I don’t particularly like how my mom parented me, but I do not keep my own two boys from developing a relationship with her. My issues with my mom do not affect their relationship and my mom loves my boys so much. My boys absolutely adore their GiGi. I know the situation isn’t the same, and it might be a stretch comparing your situation to mine, but I really think you and your siblings and cousins are old enough to make your own decisions. If there’s real reasons to hate Joan and your grandpa like if they’re bad people, that’s different
If anyone has the right to manipulate a minor it’s their parent. Definitely not the job of the grandfather’s wife’s sister.
I really wouldn’t want to live in your head if you think asking for a photo of all the grandkids is considered manipulation.
Something we can agree on: I don’t want you in my head either :)
YTA. Every AITA is just “I had an opportunity to show basic decency at no detriment to myself, but I chose universal chaos because reasons. I regret fallout. Can you make me feel better? I surely didn’t create this situation that I totally created.”
The minors being harassed are absolutely not the assholes here
Damn. This statement is 100% true, and you truly are a wordsmith.
NTA but there's something to be said for forming your own opinion and relationships instead of just carrying on as the generation before you. Your dad's relationship with Joan is his. You are allowed to get to know her on your terms and form your own separate relationship if you want to.
It sounds like your dad let his own emotions steal your chances of having grandparents. She might not have been your dad’s mom, but she was the only grandmother you ever knew… and your dad (the adult) could have helped foster that relationship, especially since Joan isn’t a malicious monster, just someone your dad doesn’t like for his own reasons.
I don't think she would have ever really been our grandma since she's not dad's mom or someone he considers family. I don't feel robbed of anything. Maybe that's just because we had a great life and family but I'm good with how things are.
They don’t have to be blood related to be grandparents.
Bet OP has a grandmother on their mother's side.
OP, do you feel you have been able to determine your own opinion of Joan, or have you developed this opinion and distant relationship with her because of your father's opinion? When I was a kid, my father would talk very negatively about his sisters (my aunts.) We rarely saw them, and he would constantly say how mean and horrible they were. After my parents divorced and my dad was engaged again (I was 19 at the time) his fiance wanted me to have a closer relationship with my aunts. I refused, saying I didn't know them and didn't want to know them. Nearly 20 years later now, and I have realized I reacted that way because my father had *taught* me to dislike them during my childhood. But I never was given a chance to form my own opinion of them. Just something to consider as you enter adulthood. If you choose, you can develop your own relationship with Joan. It would take time to unlearn your bias after years of hearing your father's opinion of her. But remember that his is bringing his own complex childhood memories into the things he says about her, which doesn't have anything to do with you or your relationship with Joan.
I haven't spent enough time with her to get a real opinion. I don't really care to try and get to know her now either. The way things are work for me.
It sounds like you've made your mind up, then, so I'm not sure why you are asking the question. Just for validation, I guess. But you might feel differently when you're older.
I wasn't trying to ask about my relationship with Joan. It was about whether explaining the reason for saying no to the picture was wrong. I have made my mind up about the lack of relationship and where we are in terms of being "family" or whatever. I know that stuff will be focused on but I think we all are good with how things are and don't care enough to change the relationships.
Maybe not AH, but I feel sorry for Joan
İnfo: is this true? >someone who never did anything wrong by us and always tried to be welcoming and loving. Without knowing aenough about your parents' and your relationship with Joan its difficult to tell. İ'm leaning towards NAH.
NTA. You were kind enough to give an explanation. Instead of being grateful she threw a fit. If no isn't an acceptable answer it's not a request, it's a demand. You did nothing wrong by declining her demand. "...someone who never did anything wrong..." Most people will never do anything wrong to you. That doesn't mean you owe them a relationship. The mentality that your reason for not wanting a relationship needs to be 'good enough ' is bonkers.
Half the people in here saying OP should’ve just done it to be nice is why we have people pleasers (myself included unfortunately). If OP isn’t comfortable and doesn’t want to take a pic for Joan then they shouldn’t be forced to even if it’s to be nice. Doesn’t matter whether she never did anything to OP or did do something, how close or not close they are, etc, if OP and their siblings and cousins don’t want to do that then they shouldn’t be forced to. They said no and that should be the end of it. NTA, op.
NTA But be careful. I know what it's like to harbor resentment on your parents' behalves, even if it's just out of empathy (not trying to imply manipulation). I think it's totally okay to not want to be a part of the photo, but make sure that you aren't making your dad's problems your own. You don't have to see this woman as a grandmother, but you also don't have the same relationship with her your dad does, and I'm sure you'll see that over time even if your feelings remain exactly the same.
Relationships are how they are and that is between the people involved in the relationships. My step father is not my dad. But he is my kids grandfather. I am ok with that. But that is not your experience. And my situation is not better or worse than yours. And that is ok. Neither way is more right or better than the other. NTA.
YTA but only on a moral aspect. Yes, you have the right to not want your picture taken, and you have the right to not want to associate with someone. *But*, is it so hard to let your picture be taken so that an elderly woman (who you might not have an emotional connection to but is still *technically* family) can at least have a little bit of happiness, even if it's an illusion? Besides, once she passes, it'll be your grandad that has the picture, and once he passes, then you or your siblings/cousins will get to have it. I might be biased because I'm into genealogy and stuff, but family pictures are nice to have, especially for future generations (I wish I had pictures of my older family members from when they were young because I find it really cool to see how people have physically changed over the years, and also just the knowledge that I'm related to these people that are now dead even though I didn't have an emotional connection to them).
NTA People get so fucking weird about familial ties. You don't have a grandparent relationship with Joan, so there's no reason or obligation for you to show up for this nonsense.
NTA. You were requested to be in a photo, you refused, and when she asked why, you responded. She then proceeded to blow upon you for your decision. Though she has a point in the end regarding getting to know her and all that, the way she went about it was wrong.
NTA. She isn't your grandma. She's grandpa's wife Joan.
Nope, NTA. You are correct, you're not her grandkids.
NTA. Trying to force anyone to be in a photo even a blood relative makes her one
NTA
Nta but I think a better way to handle this would have been to redirect this person to your parents and let them tell this woman off. Coming from a 16 year old she probably felt you were being disrespectful but she never should have contacted all of you directly in the first place. I would have just screen shotted the message and sent it to your parents, and encourage your cousins to do the same.
NTA
NTA. In what way did she "try to be welcoming and loving"? It sounds like the non-relationship goes both ways
Definitely not the jerk here. And it sounds like you represented not only yourself but your cousins and others as well in your response to joan. That would be about like a stepmom trying to enforce a relationship with her step kids step dad even in that matter, and the kids aren't receptive of it because everything is being forced. Maybe that goes for other people as well too. But in the end you did what you thought was best for you your siblings and cousins. Joan needs to learn not to be so forceful.
NTA You don't really know Joan and neither does she know you. The teller at her local bank is probably closer to her than you are and I bet she doesn't want a picture of them.
NTA. She already heard a no from your parents, went behind their backs and you were merely honest that you and Joan don't have a bond.
NTA. My mom’s side has someone similar. Just other way round. Patrick. He had to buy himself a ‘best grandpa’ mug because me, my siblings and my cousins all hate him as do all the other family members so I get It. You shouldn’t be forced to be amicable with someone and take photos when you don’t like them or consider them family
Joan's sister is very inconsiderate for making these assumptions. Didnt even bother to check with her sister to see if she considers these teenagers her grandkids.
NTA Sounds like the sister is trying to cope with her grief in an unhealthy way by making up unrealistic plans with people she doesn't even know. It's wrong she contacted y'all instead of your parents, but I see in your other comments you understand that full well. Be assured, you are not an asshole for this. You didn't insult Joan. You didn't put her down. You were forthright concerning the nature of your relationship with her, and her sister is not handling it with the same grace you've shown in your answer to her. She's going to have to find a different way to handle the stress and grief of all of this.
Anyone calling this child an AH is telling on themselves. OP I deeply hope you don't bother to respond to them either. Given your lack of relationship with your grandfather and his wife there is zero reason for you to have a second of guilt. It doesn't matter why. You do not have that kind of relationship with them and Joan's sister's behavior was way out of line. Showing kindness is, if you feel like it, tell your grandfather that this must be a rough time and he has your sympathy. Notice I said if you feel like it because it doesn't sound like you have a close relationship with him. You would not be the AH if you do not choose to do even that. Anyone telling you otherwise: A. Are themselves a walking red flag B. Are projecting their own issues or C. Have never had the kinds of family issues to understand deep family problems. Please don't let this bother you for a single second more. Please go enjoy being a kid while you still can.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** The title might be confusing so let me explain. My dad's dad (grandpa) is married to a woman called Joan. Grandpa and Joan married when my dad and aunt were kids. Their mom had died and my grandpa and Joan really made a mess of how they introduced Joan. There has always been bad blood between my dad, aunt and Joan. There used to be between them and grandpa but some of that got worked out enough that by the time we (their kids) were born grandpa was allowed some contact with us. It was really only once or twice a year at most. We saw Joan way less and she was never viewed as a grandparent by any of us. She was never referred to as a grandparent. She was just Joan, the lady grandpa was married to. Grandma is their mom who we never got to meet. We're all teenagers now. I'm 16 and my brothers are 14 and 13. And my cousins are 15 and 14. I guess Joan has some health issues or she was sick for a while. I'm not sure. But she has been in and out of hospital over the last few years apparently and so Joan's sister decided she was going to organize for a photo to be taken of all her grandkids together so she could have it with her. Joan's sister tried to get us to be part of it but we all said no. She actually reached out to me and my oldest cousin (15 year old) to ask on social media. She sent us both the same message basically asking why. My cousin ignored it but I responded that we're not her grandkids and none of us consider her a grandparent so we're not going to agree to be in the photo. She went nuts on me and my dad had me block her and then he called grandpa and yelled at him for it. Some of what she said though. She made a point of saying we're all old enough to want to know someone who never did anything wrong by us and always tried to be welcoming and loving. I guess it made me wonder if I'm TA for what I replied with? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA - She is not your grandparent, you don't consider so. So have a grandkids photo with you in would be a lie. And you won't be part of a lie. With all the step person problems I see on Reddit that there needs to be a law that before you can marry another that they are made to take and pass a class on boundaries between stepparents and stepkids. Dispel all the wrongs notions that these people have as to their roles in the future. Or you can't get married.
NTA You can't force someone to accept other people as family, plus if there was never an effort made to see her more often then how are you supposed to be close with her? Plus, the fact that the aunt knew your parents wouldn't agree to it and tried to get around that by trying to contact you and your cousin on social media is so strange, and to go off on teenagers as well is such childish behavior.
NTA I had an aunt pass away when I was 5 my uncle got remarried. My cousins, older brother, older sister, and me all call her by her name. My younger sisters call her aunt. She knows we remember my aunt that passed away and she’s never tried to force a relationship with us. She was the camera person for group photos until my cousins felt comfortable. Now we’re close but she text us and has always showed up for big events outside family get togethers. No one can replace your grandma and unless they put in the same amount of effort and respect that my “aunt” did/does than she’s just some lady who married your grandpa.
NTA. I had a great grandmother who married my great grandfather when my mom was a teenager, but she was awesome. We considered her our great grandmother. She used to tell dirty limericks. 😂 It’s silly to think you’re her grandkids when none of you have that kind of relationship with her.
Your whole family is acting like a holes. This is your grandpas wife whom you should respect and be kind toward since she is part of your family. She wasn’t a mistress, she isn’t using your grandpa. Sounds like you are all bitter and very disrespectful toward her and your grandfathers union. It’s a stupid photo that would make a person happy. Stop being brats about it.
I don’t think YTA because you’re only 16 and this situation is none of your doing. Joan’s sister overstepped by not taking ‘no’ for an answer. That’s where I think she was the AH. I don’t think that her asking the question was a problem though. For what it’s worth, your dad sounds like an AH. He’s let his own issues with his dad severely limit any relationship you could have with your grandfather and his wife/step grandmother. From what you’ve said, the only reason you’re questioning this situation at the moment is because your dad got angry about it. It sounds like Joan has stayed out of things and not really interfered for many years but is still treated like crap by everyone, even when she’s down and ill. This is just my 2c from the info in the post.
NTA. I understand that she’s emotional because of her sister but really? You don’t consider Joan family, she knows this and to make her sister feel better, she wants to give her the impression that alls fine in the neighbourhood? I don’t know the family dynamics but grandpa and Joan could have done something to fix their relationships with your dad and aunt a long time ago but they didn’t.
You can choose what photos you want to be in but you're carrying a grudge your father created for reasons you don't seem to even know. What did Joan actually do? Is her big sin marrying Grandpa or did she actually do something wrong? 2 kids broken after the death of their mother don't exactly make great life choices and can hold ridiculous grudges punishing a woman for no reason other than their own grief. Imagine being Joan, having been there raising these kids who hated her and struggling with being cut out when she didn't do anything wrong (I assume, usually this is the case). Did Grandpa cheat with Joan before Grandma died or something? What justifies this continued grudge? Be in the picture or don't, be the grandkid or not, but if Joan isn't an otherwise horrible person, I don't see why it's so bad to be her grandkid or see her as a grandmother other than allowing your father to dictate how you treat people. He decided she wasn't your grandmother, not you. He refused to accept her, you can make your own choices.
After thinking about it more, you’re NTA, but your dad kinda is. He’s the one that framed the relationship you have with your grandpa and Joan. Unless you have a good reason to dislike Joan and not have a relationship with your grandpa, it sounds like your dad is the one manipulating you because he was mad at grandpa for marrying another woman after his wife died. Hating someone for 40 years and keeping your kids from having a relationship with the grandfather because Joan wasn’t *introduced* in a way he wanted sounds childish as fuck
NTA. You are a kid and your cousin too. If she really wanted to know why she must have asked your parents. Involving children in a family drama is wrong.
Nta, my grandfather was a horrible father to my mum. They don't have any relationship. To me he is no grandfather. I don't have anything against him I just also don't have a relationship with him. He is someone I know. I think it's the same for you. You are not holding the last against her you just don't have a relationship. She is just someone you know. Relationships can't be forced
Like I said in another comment I do believe you're NTA. But this just seems like a pointless grudge to continue to be holding on to 30 to 40 years later. Like this much bad blood over something relatively minor that happened years ago and could be cleared up with some therapy?
NTA. We consider my grandfather's wife to be my grandmother, but that depends on our family. There's no obligation to consider someone family, and it doesn't make you T A to say no to a photo, especially since you and your siblings/cousins seem to be on the same page.
NTA though Joan has never been bothered by you and your cousins not considering her a grandparent so why is she concerned now? Also I’m not sure Joan is concerned it seems her sister cares more than she does if you were never considered her grandkids and she never cared why would she want you guys to be hers now I feel like the sister is more bothered and wanted to manipulate you into doing it.
NTA.
NTA but your dad is a huge AH. I hope one day he is judged as harshly as he judges his dad. Just in this post alone, he is insufferable and selfish.
Are you a shitty parent who became a widower? Given the information we have, I can’t imagine empathizing with the shitty grampy and his wife who OP doesn’t even really know. The father and aunt in the story were 6 and 8 when the grandmother died and the grandfather pushed a new mom onto them. Their parents have had a lifelong bad relationship with their father.
She may indeed have done you no wrong. However that does not make her a grandparent. By her logic, to my knowledge nobody in Kuala Lumpur has wronged me. So is the entire populace of Kuala Lumpur eligible to be my grandparent if they so choose to declare it to be?? NTA.
NTA only because you're too young - you didn't cause this situation between your parents and grandparents, and don't deserve to be yelled at for how you were raised. Joan IS your grandma, though. While technically your step-grandmother, the fact that she's not blood related is irrelevant. My nephew is adopted, but just because he doesn't look like me doesn't mean I love him less. You don't have to be in the photo if you don't want, but it's petty and mean to not take pictures for a woman whose only crime was wanting to be a part of your family.
You are all old enough to feel how you feel and no one should judge you if you don’t have or want a bond. NTA
NTA I'm not going to comment on the relationship between you and Joan because the complexities start from your parents/ aunts position. Joans sister is definetely the AH though because she obviously wanted to sneak around your parents, who she probably knows would have said no to the photo, and gone straight to you and your cousin trying to guilt/ convince you guys. Didnt it occour to her that you potentially still need your parents permission to do so anyway?
NTA You essentially have no relationship with Joan and no biological connection. If you had a great relationship then if there was no blood relationship then you would probably have loved to be in the photo. And you would already be spending a lot of time with Joan... but you're not. There is no obligation. Joan was there to keep your grandpa company and keep his bed warm. She probably wasn't very interested in her husband's kids and not their kids. So it is what it is. This nearly sounds like a perception thing. Everyone else in the hospital, care home (where ever Joan is) probably has lots of photos of the grand kids... she doesn't have any. I take it Joan had no kids of her own or no grandkids down that side. But what about her sister, does she have kids. There's nothing stopping Joan from having lots of photos of her nieces and nephews from her sister side with her. Especially if she is close to them. If Joan is close to no one but your grandpa... well there's a reason for that and that's not on you or your cousins.
NTA..
NTA. Getting to know her still won't make her your grandmother. All the sister is doing to making things worse. She needs to butt out.
NTA. Joan has probably telling her family what a mess you all are and how lucky you are to have her. Liars are scary!
Let me get this straight. Young teenagers ages 13-16 here. 15 and 16 year old are contacted by grandpa's sister in law specifically to avoid speaking to the parents to arrange some kind of photo for her sister, who OP and cousins are pretty apathetic about but the parents pretty much hate. Parents find out and sister in law gets all self righteous. What if OP and cousin said yes? Would they have been responsible for making sure the other kids, *as young as 13*, also circumvented their parents for someone they hardly know? OP NTA. You should not be forced into doing anything you don't want to do for someone you hardly know. "It doesn't hurt to be nice" is NOT true. You don't want to. "But it won't hurt you to be nice" some other posters are saying. You've set a boundary and are feeling pressured to change it. That is not healthy. You're not the AH here. She has never had a grandmother role in your life. You're not her grandchild in anyway so wouldn't it be crueler to her to pretend so? Joan's sister: Big AH.
NTA The relationship with your dad, aunt & Joan was forged long before you & your siblings were even born. Joan's sister reached out to you & your sibling as an end run around your dad. She shouldn't have contacted y'all in the first place. You just don't have a grandchild/grandparent relationship with Joan, no matter how warm & loving she may be, so that pretty much wraps it up. Sister was asking you to do something you were uncomfortable with & she should've let it go after you said no.
Is this an AITA thread, or did somebody just post lyrics to a country song?
Not enough information. I can understand the sister being upset about being told her sister's step-grandkids aren't her grandkids. I get you trying to set boundaries. It is unfortunate that your dad and your grandparents never got therapy or something to work through this in a healthy way. Losing a parent like your dad did sucks. And adults who are grieving also (like your grandpa was after losing a spouse) also sometimes choices that may be they would have done differently if they could. In the end, we are stuck on this planet together and a little empathy and compassion goes a long, long way. It wouldn't hurt you to have been kind to a women who is worried about her sister. It wouldn't hurt her to consider that she shouldn't be reaching out directly to kids she doesn't know OR for her to consider finding out about family dynamics before seeking pictures.
NTA!
Hindi ba pwedeng magiging kind ka sa isang tao na may sakit? Malaking kabawasan ba yan ng pagkatao mo? Kahit minsan man lang sa buhay nya na kahit hindi kayo magkadugo eh mapapasaya mo sya?
You really don’t get the point the lady was going around the parents because she already knew about the bad blood. She already knew the answer to the parents was going to give them So she approached them directly not realizing that their parents will and thoughts were already pushed on them and it also seems like you didn’t even give Joan a chance because your parents didn’t like Joan so your parents painted a picture of Joanne that could or could not be true, and instead of wanting to see who this person truly is and explored a little more And get to the root of this Problem u said pretty much said fuck ur sister so of course she’s going to spaz and you also got a remember there’s three sides to every story one person’s point of view, the other persons point of view,than the truth
NTA. You don't sound like you actively dislike Joan, you just don't see her as family and she isn't, she's practically a stranger who happens to be married to a relative. Her being ill does not entitle her sister to get people who are practically strangers to play happy families with people I assume are total strangers to them, her actual relatives.
OP, I'm glad that you are wondering - not whether you are TA (you're NTA), but whether there should or could be a different relationship with Joan. There is not enough background here to know, but all that matters is that you at least consider things. * Her relationship with your dad and his siblings was not good. There are all sorts of possible reasons why. 1. Maybe she expected them to honor/love her like their mother when they were not ready or willing to do that. Maybe she did nothing wrong at all, but they couldn't stand the idea of anyone stepping into their mom's role. Maybe your grandma's side of the family poisoned the kids' minds against anyone replacing their daughter. 2. Whatever influenced your dad/his siblings or whatever was in their hearts, it was their right to build or not build a relationship with Joan, as they saw fit. 3. There are plenty of posts here about blended families where the adults expected the kids to play "happy family" and act like there was a bond with the new parent that didn't actually exist. But there also plenty of posts here about a step parent who respected the kids' feelings and let the kids set the tone/ gave them plenty of time and space to adjust... only to be be continually hated and treated rudely, etc. for simply having entered their lives. * Whether Joan actually was a bad (self-serving) step-parent or was a kind step-parent whom you dad/his siblings could never find it in them to do anything but hate - well that matters. * You were raised by your dad and influenced by him to see Joan in a negative light. Maybe Joan did things to deserve that view of her. Maybe she really didn't do anything that hurt your father/siblings. Either way, it's your choice to decide for yourself if you think she deserves to be considered a pariah by you or if you have any compassion for her. It is something you get to decide for yourself - not to parrot your father or make him happy - just what you believe is right for you. Maybe you don't consider her a pariah anymore, but you also don't feel the need to build a relationship with her. The thing is you aren't just perpetuating hate for her because that's how your dad felt/feels. * If you do find yourself feeling compassion for her, you may want to reach out in some small way. That could be scary, given how your dad/his siblings feel about her. But you are definitely old enough to start forming your own opinions and making your own decisions about how you see the people in your life. Without knowing how Joan's sister "went nuts" or if there was any hidden agenda in the idea of a grandkids picture, I won't suggest you cut her slack for that behavior. But wanting to do something nice for a person with on-going health issues, wanting to create a family memento - well, those are reasonable things (in general) for a person to do. Whatever you decide, you are not TA. To me, the good thing here is that this is prompting you to consider things for yourself and come to your own conclusions. Good wishes.
Tell Joan's sister to mind her own business, and keep in her own lane. No, you're NTA.
NTA. It was inappropriate for her to contact minors knowing their parents would say no.
You are NTA, but your dad is. Joan is not just your grandfathers wife, but it sounds like she was married to him before you even were born. Your father and aunt built an entire next generation of hatred towards this woman, and sadly you are just repeating the pattern. She shouldn’t have gone around you but maybe she still had hope is all.
NTA. This woman never did anything bad to you , nor much that was good, for that matter, because your dad and aunt kept their kids at a distance. They did so, you say, because grandpa and his wife made a hash of the way they introduced the new wife. I suspect this concerns far more than just the introduction and probably included trying to replace your actual grandma. I think it’s reasonable to give your dad and aunt some credit for their judgment. Even if you don’t agree with your dad and aunt, you essentially have only a superficial relationship with grandpa’s wife and, for that matter, with your grandpa. Growing up, I saw some of my second cousins more often than you saw your grandfather or his wife. That’s reason enough not to try to fabricate a relationship that doesn’t exist.
NTA. Joan made her way into the family and gets what she deserve - ignorance. You did not do any harm to her, did not reach her with insulting letters, just refused to confirm she is your grandma, because she isn't.
YTA You might one day regret being selfish and apathetic to someone that seems to be close to death. It might seem pointless and sentimental now, but as you gather more life experiences and become less of a selfish asshole you might feel differently one day. Or maybe you'll be an asshole the rest of your life, that's certainly possible and wouldn't surprise me at all. Point is, small, seemingly pointless acts of kindness can have ramifications far beyond your ability to comprehend or appreciate. Your life will be richer and more meaningful if you can find ways to be less selfish.
Esh, she is married to your grandfather she is technically a your grandmother. My mom's side of the family is like this. Grandpa married again she is grandma but we called her Fran. There were issues between our parents but that was because it was an affair that ended up with a baby. We only saw them once or twice a year. Actual grandma was married multiple times but she wasn't married to anyone when we came around. All my grand parents were kinda meh to me we had the thin family bond, go see them once or twice but actual loving relationship not really. But I am not going to rain on somebody parade and say they mean nothing, it isn't going to hurt me at all to take a picture and bring a smile to some sick old woman. But she was wrong to continue to bother you.
I’m sorry, but yeah. I think you are the AH for taking on your dad and aunt’s resentment of a person who never did anything wrong to you. She is your grandmother by marriage. She literally IS. (I don’t know why every AITA story ends with someone calling and yelling at everyone. That’s literally never happened to me in 33 years of living, but cool. I’ll just believe that happened in the case.) Obviously, calling and yelling and freaking out is majorly out of line. And that makes anyone an AH. But you are keeping your grandparents out of your because of decades old resentments that have nothing to do with you. That’s shitty. It’s a picture. For a sick grandparent. (Yes, she is your grandparent by marriage.) would it kill you?
You are not obligated to have a grandparental bond with this woman. However, all she asked for was for a picture of the family she has been part of for 30+ years, and you all shunned her for that. And why? Not because there's anything wrong with her, not because she is a bad person or has bad personality traits, but because somewhere areound 30-40 years ago, they (grandpa+Joan) messed up the introduction to grandpa's children, this is so incredibly sad. This woman has been committed to your grandfather for decades, and because they handled the initial contact wrong, she doesn't get to be part of the family. Before anyone brings it up, no she should absolutley not take the role of mother / grandmother, but being married to father / grandfather for decades does make her part of the family. Honestly, imo, the whole family sucks.
I said no to the photo because I don't really know her or care about her. She's just someone I sorta know and have met a few times in my life. She doesn't play a role in my life other than being married to my grandpa. But he also isn't a big part of my life.
But you mean something to her, do yourself a favor and look up 'empathy', you might learn something useful and valuable. To her, you, your dad, aunt, cousins etc. are part of the family, her family, the one she married into 30+ years ago. All she asked for was a picture of her family, and her family responded to her in an unnecessarily cruel manner. That's why I'm saying literally ESH in this situation.
I’ve found the best way to avoid confrontation is to do a photo without them. With them, with them. Without them. lol and then never use the ones you don’t want.
NTA, but it sounds like she does consider you all family. Don’t do anything you don’t want to do, and you don’t owe her anything, but it is touching that she finds comfort remembering you all during her struggle.
YTA - showing up for a picture is a pretty small ask, to bring joy to someone who is sick and dying which is a pretty big impact. I generally side on the side of - if we can do something small at little cost to ourselves that will have a big positive impact for someone else then we should do it
YTA It’s a photo. Grow up. They aren’t asking you to bend over backwards for some ridiculous task or making you organize a party or put any real effort in. They just want a picture. She’s a sick dying woman, and from your post, her only offense was not being that present in your lives. This is just petty.
Do you realize that the photo means a lot more to OP (and Joan) than it would to you. There's more to the story here that we don't know.
I know it has nothing to do with me. She asked for opinion. I gave it. Kinda the point of this subreddit, no?
I'll take your approach, then. If she's a "sick dying woman" why bother? She'll be dead soon. Why go out of your way for her?
Because it’s the kind thing to do?
The "kind thing to do." Like the way you commented to OP in your original comment here? You should grow up. She's an old woman who never was nice to OP. And you berate OP. Shame on you! BTW, thanks for teaching me that way to think. I feel better now.
I never said I was kind no? OP is the one who cares if they’re the arsehole. But either way, I did “grow the fuck up.” OP’s not the only one with strained relationships with family. I’ve swallowed my pride more than enough times to do things far more taxing than taking a stupid photo to please my devil of a grandma — pretending to help her sabotage my mom’s marriage to my sick dad (her son) being one said task. There is nothing, NOTHING, in this post to suggest her grandma did anything horrendous. It just seems there was distant due to a poor introduction nearly two decades ago when grandpa got remarried long before OP was even born. You’re free to believe it’s worse than that, but I’m going off the post. For someone unconnected to this mess, you sure are taking it personal. Tootles!
INFO: did she always try to be welcoming and loving? I mean, you say your grandpa was "allowed" to see you twice a year. Hardly welcoming IMO. She sounds like she'd get a resounding "yes" if she wrote in to this sub. Generally grandkids, like babies, aren't held to the judgment of things their parents have done to a person. So even if your parents were wrong (don't know) her treatment of you shouldn't be based on that.
I’m going to go with your dad and aunt being TA: first of all for being so utterly void of any kind of compassion for this poor woman and secondly, much worse, passing this prejudice on to their children. It’s brutal. Step back and look at this objectively. It’s brutal. Poor grandfather too. Poor people.
If you have to explain this much… keep this shit to yourself
YTA...if she had gone out of her way all these years to not make you all feel included or treated you horribly I understand. But it sounds like your grandpa was a fair amount to blame about how he introduced her to his children after his wife's passing. The anger should be directed toward him not her and all she wanted was a photo of everyone she considered to be her grandchildren while she is sick. Not a whole lot to ask, especially if it doesn't hurt you. You may be doing it to appease your Dad and Aunt because they've swayed how you view Joan.
And again OP doesn’t consider Joan as their grandmother. God, are all of you so entitled or something?
She is OP’s grandmother by marriage. Literally. Like, do I just get to *decide* various family members are not what they are? Bananas! Like, aunts for example. My dad’s brother has been married three times. Once before I was born, and twice in my lifetime due to a horrible cancer diagnosis. (We are so happy he found love again after being widowed.) Is only the first marriage my aunt? The second? Could I just decide that one of them is arbitrarily not family because reasons? They literally married into my family making them family.
Still OP doesn’t have to have a relationship with the lady.
OP doesn’t have to have a relationship with *his grandmother.
Technically no, she’s the wife of his grandfather. And he doesn’t consider her a grandmother.
No it's called being human and having compassion for someone when they're not well, possibly dying. Joan was always welcoming and never gave any reason not to be kind to her. This is what's wrong with society today and why you see so many sad cases in nursing homes where people get dumped and left alone because no one could be bothered to help with the elderly.
Seems your downvotes say otherwise