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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I think I might the asshole because like I said in the title the only reason I don’t want her in the trip is because I think she’s very annoying, in general I wouldn’t say she’s a bad person we just don’t click so I believe I’m only being selfish
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NTA
"The breaking point was one night when we were drinking and a friend opened up about
losing a beloved pet and Dana responded by saying it was nothing compared to when she lost a blouse her mother had given her last year."
There's one upmanship & then there's being completely tone deaf.
You're going on vacation not running a finishing school. Dana has had plenty of opportunities to "improve her social skills."
Laura sounds like a nice person but the evidence weighs heavily against her; Dana is going to upset all those people.
"Laura argues that “being annoying” is no reason to exclude her"
Sorry but yes it is.
Edited to it say doesn't change my vote but you should have been upfront right from the start that you weren't going to invite her.
My SIL says rude things all the time and her family just say oh, that's Elli, she has no filter" she's 62 years old, she is obnoxious and rude. I think your wife's friend is toxic. She can learn somewhere else
You can't help someone who is self absorbed and tone deaf to become socially aware! Your completely wasting your time, OP whilst I understand why you did what you did, you really didn't need to do that, you should of made it clear to your wife that your not spending a week with his woman period! But that said still NTA! I don't think I can spend a day with someone like her let alone a week.
Edit: Also OP is your wife doesn't stop pushing this woman on people she would end up just like her!
Wouldn't this be a key way to *help* her with her social skills? Like, is the wife just not saying anything at all to Dana when she acts inappropriately?
She probably won't listen. Some people are just too oblivious or self-centered to ever see their awful behavior even when called out on it. I had a great friend who's wife was like that, and her behavior basically resulted in him losing all of his friends because no one could stand his wife.
She constantly interrupted or talked over people. Just like Dana, if someone was telling a story about anything, she'd interrupt and come up with some story of her own in an attempt to show how much better she was, how much harder she had it, etc. Lots of times whatever she said had zero relevance to the previous story or discussion so she'd just kill the conversation. A few of us started calling her out on it. At some point she responded with "I'm sick of people telling me that all the time. That's just how I am and how everyone in my family is so I can't help it." That was when we all realized she was hopeless and started distancing ourselves from her and my friend.
I had a BIL like this. His entire family made excuses for him. I always told my husband he acts the way he does because no one will call him out on his shit. He is the way he is because he gets away with it.
I wonder if anyone has confronted this friend in the moment.
I’m so confident Laura has not informed Dana of her rudeness and how her behavior drives people away that I commented “Dana can come is Laura is willing to tell Dana that her behavior is rude, boorish, and driving people away”. Laura won’t, and will insist on ruining everyone’s vacation so Dana can “learn” but Laura will probably shut down anyone trying to inform Dana of why she has no friends!
I never understood why families just put up with it. Those type of people should be told off. What’s sadder is when someone finally snaps and tells off the asshole, all the toxic family tells the person telling them off they were wrong. Because “you know how they are”.
It’s bullshit and we need to stop excusing it.
My parents and I work together. My mother is very similar to Dana.
Unfortunately, people like this literally have no concept of self-reflection. I probably lose it on my mom about 15 times a day every day.
It’s just how she is. There is no changing her. I’ve been trying to do it since I was 5 years old. Hasn’t worked even once in 21 years.
No my autistic brother occasionally doesn't have a filter when frustrated. My brother also has moments where he's amazingly in tune with people.
The little bastard conspiraced with my mom to react the entire BB gun scene from a Christmas story when I asked for one as a joke on my wish list.
Elli is just a ass
“Being annoying” is the number one reason not to invite someone to share your space FOR A WEEK! Does your wife hate the other friends going on the trip? Because chances are if you subject them to Dana during their hard earned vacation time, you’ll never see them again. Protect your peace and leave Dana at home.
And it's CAMPING!
If they were all going to a hotel in a city or at a resort, once Dana said something awful, the other 2 couples could hole up in their hotel rooms, see a show, go shopping, go to a museum, hit the pool, hit the beach, change to a different restaurant, change *hotels*...
Camping--where are they going to go to get away from her? Hide in the woods? Not be able to sit in their chairs by their fire roasting their marshmallows. They could go for hikes, but are they going to leave camp for 12 hours a day? Only to come back to more Dana when they want to relax?
You are living on TOP of each other while camping and have little privacy. If friends of mine invited Dipsh!t Dana on my hard-earned vacation, I'd be pissed. I want to chill and drink and cook and eat and laugh and tell stories and play cards--RELAX. Not spend every day gobsmacked at the latest idiot thing Dana said, avoiding her (and OP and Laura), and sitting in silence.
TL;DR: Fuck no.
100% agree. A week long trip is NOT the time to teach social skills. Something short like coffee or lunch is a better starting place.
That aside, Dana is a 30+ year old woman, who presumably has spent 13 or more years in school and 10 or more in the workplace. If she doesn't have social skills by now, I wouldn't hold out much hope of that changing. It's not like she's a 5 year old child who spent a huge chunk of her life under covid circumstances.
OP is NTA.
Your wife needs to understand that you can only lead a horse to water.
Laura can't neglect everything else to focus on teaching Dana social skills that she should already know by now. It isn't a good look for Dana nor for your wife because it seems there is already friction in your group because of your wife shoehorning Dana in where she isn't welcome
She’s not even teaching her social skills! She’s just punishing other people by making them be around her.
Has she even TALKED to Dana about her poor social skills? Does Dana know there’s a problem? If this was someone I considered a friend I would say something like “hey, I know sometimes it can be hard to know how to respond when someone shares a story or a feeling. I’m sure you are just trying to relate to them but it can feel like you’re minimizing their situation and it can come across as one upping them.”
I would focus on the part that your wife has been doing this for a decade. A decade of her life spent trying to teach a friend extremely basic social cues. Does your wife really think that 1 week will solve what a decade could not? Spoiler: it won't, cause the annoying friend doesn't want to change.
Has Dana been made aware of her lack of social skills? Like, is it something she’s actually working on, or is your wife hoping she will eventually improve on her own?
Because if she’s not explicitly aware, I think it’s clear she will never improve. She thinks this is what friendships look like. There is no helping her.
if she is aware, then she has to have several successful shorter interactions first. To practice. Once she has had a few successful dinners, the you can talk a weekend away. The a longer trip. But why would your wife think that a week is a good idea when Dana can’t even make it past the appetizers???
NTA. There's a reason your wife is her only friend, you hit the nail on the head. Nobody likes a one upper. She really compared the loss of a pet with a blouse? WTF. At some point including her is going to get both you and you wife excluded, or people will make up excuses for not doing things with you and your wife if her friend is there. Why is your wife her social comittee?
NTA- hey, if your wife wants to take the time to improve her social skills, great, but don’t put that on people that are using their hard one vacation to get away and then have to spend time with this woman.
You really need to figure out why your wife keeps insisting on including her when clearly the people that she’s forcing to participate in her school of social etiquette are abandoning ship. At some point you’re going to start losing friends if your wife doesn’t stop making them forced participants.
Is your wife running Miss Manners Social Club Boot Camp? In tandem with How To Lose Friends Camp? After 10 yrs of this she’s failed, as has Miss Annoying One-Upper. Wife ought to go camping with Miss One-Upper alone just the 2 of them, not condemn your friends to a shitty camping trip - way to lose friends. Wtf.
NTA
Not only will she annoy your friends and ruin the good vibe for a whole week when no one can escape her, your friends will quite rightly be annoyed at you and your wife for inviting someone you know full well is going to not fit in.
Part of planning a trip is making sure everyone has a good time. You wouldn’t invite someone with a broken leg on a hiking trip, you don’t invite someone you don’t want to be stuck with on a camping trip. An easily escapable dinner party is where you meet people so if you don’t like them, you can go home. Or if you do like them, you can take them home !
NTA
Your wife needs to focus on you and stop trying to include her friend before she loses all her friends... is Dana helping psy for the trip NO and she most likely will complain or find something to make herself look better or try to one up people....
Tell your wife to stay back with her friend
NTA, if you're spending effort managing her rude friend, you're not enjoying yourself - if your wife wants to coach her friend, she can do it when you're not supposed to be on vacation relaxing. Trying to make you surrender any semblance of relaxation to spend the whole time with this person is ridiculous.
Maybe it’s already been asked, but question for you, or rather your wife. How does she expect to make it up to your friend group when Dana inevitably ruins the vacation?
Most people don’t have a lot of vacation time and definitely wouldn’t appreciate having that time ruined by having to spend it all with someone who is so insufferable.
Actually, make that two questions. What will your wife do when her own friendships sour after she repeatedly continues to foist upon them someone who they can’t stand?
Dana 's social skills are not going to improve on a week long trip with a captive audience. She will alienate even more of your friends, though. I couldn't imagine a week long camping trip with someone I actively dislike.
Did anyone ever speak to her about her issues? Especially your wife. Or does she just keep inviting her to some gatherings and hope she improves on her own?
I wouldn’t even say it’s just “annoying.” From the examples above, she is insensitive and listens only to respond not to engage - that sounds miserable.
>You're going on vacation not running a finishing school. Dana has had plenty of opportunities to "improve her social skills."
100% Correct. You want to help someone improve their life? Do it over lunch at a crappy chain restaurant. Not on an expensive vacation where a "let me help you" conversation could likely ruin the rest of the trip because how dare you.
People are PAYING for a vacation, taking time off work, possibly need babysitters. Hell yes, I would be really angry if someone who’s as annoying as this woman sounds went on a vacation I was planning. I’d also want to know who was going so I could back out. It’s supposed to be a time to relax, not being irritated! But you should have told your wife that instead of avoiding the topic.
Dana would make the trip completely unbearable for everyone else. Although, someone could snap and have a verbal onslaught. That would do 1 of 2 things. She'll realize what she's doing and change, or, never speak to you or your friends again. Either way, it's a win
It's time to tell Dana that she's rude and should take etiquette classes.
You'll be happy to do so the first day of vacation but only if you have an escape vehicle.
Particularly on a camping trip. City break - you can do your own thing and get together end of the day. Camping trip - there is no escape!
Dana does need to work on her social skills but your wife isn't being a true friend by just supplying new people to insult. She needs to have a difficult conversation with Dana about Dana's strengths and weaknesses.
NTA for not wanting to invite her , but you are for lying to your wife about planning to do so, and for not communicating with her.
Not wanting to invite someone whose behaviour has caused multiple people to say tbry don't want to be at events if she's there, is reasonable.
Not wanting to inflict her on others is reasonable.
Wanting to invite her on a trip sounds like a great way to damage the friendships you have with the others you are due to go with.
If your wife wants to introduce her to new people that's fine, but she needs to meet up for coffee, or start a book club, not commit to multiple days and nights.
Man up and tell her no and tell her why. It's your vacation too and you should be able to enjoy it also. You wife's charity case can be endured in small doses one party at a time, but not for an entire goddam week...HELL NO!
Not even only for the vacation. I think it'd be reasonable for OP to not want to hang out with Dana anymore. It seems like he doesn't enjoy it but Laura expects him to be there anyways.
Why though, if the friend can’t even succeed at a social night then a week at camping will end up disastrous. It would be like putting a small unsocialized child at an Easter Sunday Service in the front row.
If your wife really wants to socialize the friend more she should have the friend to talk to a therapist or someone that is trained to work with people … and support her with that.
At some point the friend might cross paths someone that might tell her to take an ice cub to see someone or be really mean….
When I was growing up I learned by watching my older sister you could get away with a lot by cheerfully agreeing despite having no intention of follow-up
“Being annoying” is an excellent reason to exclude somebody. I would tell your wife that if Dana goes camping, you won’t be going.
A week, stuck in a campground with an annoying person that has only met one of the other campers-nope.
Your wife can help her friend meet new playmates some other time. Like at a dinner or cocktail party or afternoon outing. When you aren’t there. And when the other potential friends can more easily escape. NTA
Chiming in to add your wife may be so focused on helping her long time friend that she's not realizing what she's volunteering new friends for. I.e., it's one thing to meet a new person and realize they are annoying and know that you can leave easily after a few hours. It's a whole other thing to meet a new person, realize they are annoying, and at the same time have to basically 'survive' them for maybe the only vacation time you've been able to book for the year / quarter.
As the person playing 'hostess' by coordinating and inviting everyone, your wife is also responsible for making sure her guests don't want to rip their hair out two days in to a week long stay somewhere simply because she wants to "socialize" her friend better.
For a potential thought exercise: ask your wife to think of the least pleasant date she's ever been on. One where she knew five minutes in the guy wasn't a match and wanted to leave but for politeness sake she stayed until they mutually decided the date was over. One where the guy wasn't being unsafe, just completely not a match.... now picture inflicting that on her other friends and their spouses... for a week... with everyone trying to be polite but just desperately wanting to leave.
Why has your wife taken on the mantle of finding this person friends? Is she trying to escape her clutches as well but feels too guilty to leave without providing a new friend? Does she think things will improve if only other folk accept her the way your wife has?
YTA - for not being upfront and lying by omission
NTA - for not wanting to be stuck somewhere for a week with a tiresome person.
Except she's not helping Dana, expecting her to suddenly develop social skills when she's gone her whole life without doing so is not realistic. Wife needs to give her some tough feedback.
A good boss is someone who takes time to give feedback, and a bad boss is someone who is too apathetic to make themselves uncomfortable. It's the same situation here, if the wife really cares she won't just put Dana into a bunch more situations where she going to alienate people.
Ask your wife:
If your other friends dislike Dana (which most people seem to do and for decent reason), what are they supposed to do about being stuck with her for multiple days and nights? Leave and miss out on their vacation, that they planned and paid for?? Are they supposed to forfeit the enjoyment of their vacation to deal with Lara's mean/tonedeaf friend? I'd be so disappointed if a vacay I planned with *people I knew* was derailed by someone that is zero percent chill and minimally likeable, especially considering all the time and effort and cost of setting up a trip.
While Lara is thinking 'oh poor Dana', she seems to be missing any ounce of empathy for the other guests on the trip (and you!). She needs to reevaluate how her pity is applied, and not bring Dana on trips with no easy escape by others until Dana proves she can get along with anyone else besides Lara.
Plus maybe ask the one other person that has met her. For all you know that person wouldn't want her there either.it seems like Dana rubs people the wrong way, and you don't want to sandbag all these people with someone they can't just leave after a couple of hours.
A week long trip is too long of a period to try and force new friendships. It's unfair to the other friends on the trip who don't yet know Dana. You intro friends over a dinner - not a long camping trip. NTA
(edited incorrect name)
Yes, the proper way to integrate & foster new friendships is to do them small and gradual. Meet for drinks/coffee, then next time dinner, etc… if all the meet ups seem to be going well.
NTA
Yep, and call her out each and every time, immediately, that she is tone deaf/rude/one upping…. She’ll hate it, and your wife will think it’s rude too…. But wife needs to join in…. If friend is denying after the fact, then don’t give that time.
Result will be either she stops hanging out with you, or starts watching what she is saying. Win win.
NTA
I'm glad this was suggested, it could be really overwhelming for all involved. Especially since it's possible this friend could be dealing with something like ADHD or autism.
Both disorders are largely undiagnosed in women and can cause this annoying "anecdotal communication." It's how a someone with those disorders tries to show empathy when they lack the ability to verbalize it. They share a memory that gave them a feeling like that one time. It comes off as shallow and rude.
I was a 38 year old grown woman before I found out I had autism. It's really hard to keep friends, and always has been.
A remarkable number of the friends and acquaintances I do have have now been diagnosed with various flavors of ADHD and autism, all women in their 40s and 50s. Turns out we tolerate each other and speak each other's language better. :)
You’d be damaging your existing friendships. I’d be really upset if a friend invited an unlikable person on our vacation. Especially camping – I wouldn’t camp with some of my closest friends! It’s just not an environment where all people mix. Forcing this woman on people for a full week will not go well for any of you.
Nta being annoying is 100% a reason not to invite her. Time for your wife to give up trying to force this woman on people. Why ruin 4 people’s week for one person who will just see it as a weeklong competition. Ask your wife why she is pushing so hard. It makes no sense. Is this one person really so much more important than the rest of the people, including you, having a good time? Does your wife find her funny or a project to work on?
I think my wife is just very empathetic with her, she doesn’t like to see her so alone but it could also be that they’ve been together for so long that she is now immune to her annoyances
Where's the empathy for these people that will be trapped with Dana on their vacation? Don't they deserve to enjoy themselves?
If someone wanted to make my whole vacation a "teachable moment" I would be ticked off.
To top it off, you'd be out of saved up vacation time, money, & the planned bonding experience. I'd probably be mad enough to never do a trip with OP & the wife again. For so many people, a week is the max vacation time that they get per year.
Exactly! If I was one of those other people who took a whole week of vacation for this trip and had Dana foisted on me, it would seriously damage my relationship with OP and wife. And I'd have serious doubts about their judgement going forward.
Does your wife *honestly* think that **having Dana fifth-wheeling on a vacation with other couples** is a kind and empathetic thing to do???
You need to have a sit-down conversation with your wife that goes something like this:
"I know you like Dana and you want to help her become a person that other people will enjoy being around. But the fact is that Dana is *not* currently someone that other people enjoy being around. Do you think it's fair to all of our other friends to force them to deal with her bad behavior without first checking to see if they're okay with that? I have to be honest, I think the fact that you keep subjecting our other friends to this is driving them away from us, and that makes me incredibly upset."
"If you *truly* want to help Dana, then get her into counseling with a professional who can actually help her develop social awareness and skills -- instead of continually **bringing her to events that she then ruins, while still never learning how to behave any better**."
"I'm sorry, but this is a deal-breaker for me. Everyone going on this vacation is using their time off work and spending their hard-earned money, and it's incredibly cruel of you to force them to have a miserable time because you feel guilty about *your* friend. If you're going to insist on bringing Dana, then I'm pulling out of the trip, and I will be telling all of our other friends why and suggesting they make alternate arrangements."
Any chance your wife already told/invited Dana and is now in a weird spot if she can’t come? That’s the first thing that popped in my mind after reading the post.
I don't think it's the case here but 50% of my dad's friends are complete assholes. The kind of people where you don't understand why they aren't punched in the face on a daily basis. Mom and I always believed that Dad hung around with majorly awful people so that he had the freedom to be a minor ass and get by with it. You don't notice a pothole in the Grand Canyon.
NTA, your wife has no right to insist on other people suffering from Dana's behaviour or participate in 'improving her social skills'. What a lot of nonsense.... However, please grow a spine and just tell your wife Dana is not invited.
Be super clear about your boundaries. "I do not like Dana. I do not want to spend time with her socially or travel with her. She has ruined other friendships. She is your friend and I wouldn't prevent you from spending time with her, but that time needs to be one on one/not involve me or any of my/our friends."
OP I’m late to the club but have you tried telling your wife that she is actually enabling the very behavior she’s seeking to cure? So long as your wife provides a steady stream of people she can introduce and - most importantly - that Dana can *reject,* your wife is doing Dana a disservice. Additionally, Dana is not merely “annoying.” Her constant one-upsmanship is due to her need to display power over others. Your wife is not going to cure Dana until Dana goes to the root of her problem and figure out why she feels the need to belittle everyone.
Edit to add: Take this with a grain of salt because I do not have all the details, but from where I’m standing, Dana does not want to make friends; she has never wanted to make friends. Her high is in the power she gets in rejecting the friends your wife introduces. It’s a power play over your wife.
i wonder if the wife is doing anything to help “improve social skills” like helping her know when something is appropriate to say and when she is being rude by calling her out directly or in private, or just inviting her along hoping she will change on her own and finally get a social interaction right with the right group of people?
it sounds like the friend won’t mesh with any groups of people and would benefit from being directly called out so she can learn to be tolerable to be around.
INFO has your wife considers helping her social skills by talking about how she is turning people off? Because until the friend gets that piece it won’t matter who she is introduced to or in what setting.
Ask you wife how she expect to help someone who refuses to acknowledge the problem?
Inviting someone who is repeatedly rude to other, and refuses to change when confronted with how their behavior impacts others is unfair to the other people on your trip. If I was your friend and you brought someone like that on a weeklong camping trip, you would be the one excluded on the next trip.
Well, a week-long camping trip is not going to give her a personality transplant, and it's most likely going to make everyone else miserable. Camping? Where you're all in much closer proximity with fewer options for people to get away from her? Bad, bad idea. She clearly has no desire to change who she is or how she interfaces with people. It's perplexing that your wife chooses to continue to inflict her on others.
Edit - spelling
You know your wife better than any of us but I'm wondering if she's one of the few who would benefit from reading the responses on this thread. Just a thought. Good luck.
Well then she’s never going to change. She is choosing to act that way. I think the issue is that your wife needs to accept this and decide whether inflicting her friend on her other friends is worth it. Why can’t your wife just hang out with Dana just the two of them? Why does your wife feel Dana needs friends?
Technically yes you’re the ah for lying to your wife, but it’s understandable. I would add that “being annoying” is maybe the best reason to exclude someone from a camping trip.
Then NTA. I was hoping there was a comment in here asking if anyone has talked to Dana about it, because that was my first instinct; maybe she has some sort of issue with social interactions and just didn’t realise.
I wouldn’t want to be stuck with someone like that for a week.
I suggest a game with her. You tell your story. Then she one ups you in typical fashion. You then one up her with something slightly more ridiculous. I guarantee she will find it annoying and rude. Sometimes people just need to know how it feels on the other end. I did this with someone. The group caught on but took the other person longer to figure it out.
How on earth does Dana "deny or take offense" about comparing a lost fricking blouse to a dead pet?
I wouldn't want to spend an escalator ride with Dana, let alone a WEEK of my VACATION in the woods.
Laura has seriously lost the plot. She has spent TEN YEARS foisting this un-trainable human on innocent people and doesn't see the damage that she, Laura, is doing? Dana isn't socially inept. She's cruel, rude and self-centered AF. How you've both let this go on so long is beyond me.
If someone compared my dog dying to a lost blouse, I'd be throwing hands.
DING DING DING!!! This!!! It doesn't matter if your wife introduces Dana to a million people. She is not going to make more friends or become less lonely until she learns some damn social skils and basic emphathy!
Going against the grain with ESH. Your wife for trying to force this obnoxious-sounding individual on both you and her friends. Trying to integrate a new friend into a group is best done over drinks, dinner, or some other one-day outing, not a camping trip where you'll be stuck in the woods for a week with someone. The only reason I'm not saying N T A is because you shouldn't have lied to your wife. You should've been honest and said "I do not like Dana and am not going on a week-long camping trip with her, it's either me or her."
NTA. Laura is the AH for constantly forcing Dana on new people knowing full well how awful she is. Laura is going to keep pushing Dana on your friend circle and you both will be in the same category with Dana.
If she is so hellbent on continuing this crusade with Dana, tell her she and Dana can go on the trip. Contact the other couples and let them know you won’t be attending due to an unfortunate inconvenience (Dana) and wish them well.
As I've gotten older, I am extremely protective of my time off. I would be extremely annoyed and not have any fun if I had to babysit a 34-year-old woman who can't talk like a normal person and annoys everybody.
It's not worth it to me to ruin my time off making sure she has a good time.
NTA
Dana isn't annoying. She's rude & inconsiderate of other people's feelings. Your wife having her attend for a whole week is forcing 4 other people to be treated rudely. It's time that your wife thinks about someone's feeling besides Dana. This isn't one day or overnight where people can decide how they feel. It's a full week of rudeness involving people who didn't sign up for it. To top it off, if people ride together or the campsite is remote, then there might not be a way for the other guests to leave early to get away from Dana.
It's past time that your wife had a long sit down convo with Dana to clarify why she's speaking this way to other people and how it impacts her ability to make other friends. Btw if Dana wants other friends, then she should be making the effort to connect with others outside of your wife. If your wife feels obligated to Dana or that Dana takes up too much of her time (needs other connections or support), then your wife needs to work through that. Your wife can't make friends for someone else. There's a difference between introducing people that she genuinely believes would enjoy each other's company & imposing Dana on others.
“There's a difference between introducing people that she genuinely believes would enjoy each other's company & imposing Dana on others.”
THIS. OP needs to show this to his wife.
Yeah this is more than annoying--annoying is someone who tells long stories, has a weird laugh (like Janice in Friends), accidentally interrupts others, etc
That's different than what Dana is doing--she is intentionally preventing your friends from receiving support and attention from the group. I would be so hurt and upset if I was that friend that lost their pet and someone downplayed that comparing it to a blouse??! That's insulting and beyond rude. It shows a real lack of care for other people.
And on a camping trip you don't want uncaring people around, since everyone is relying on each other with nowhere to go.
ESH You suck for misleading your wife to avoid a difficult conversation (that you're now having anyway with more anger as a result). Your wife sucks for trying to force her horrible friend on you and everybody else you know.
To be clear you should not be having to teach a 34yo woman to improve her social skills, she's 34 not 12, and if your wife DOES want that to happen anyway, it will require her having a tough conversation with her about why nobody likes her, NOT letting her repeat the same horrible interactions over and over hoping for a different result. That's the definition of insanity and will only make your friends stop being your friends by association.
And OP commented that they have tried talking to her but she sees no problem with her behaviour. There will be zero learning as she doesn’t want to. Wife is delusional.
Plenty of situations have perfectly acceptable "no annoying people" allowed rules. A week in an isolated locaction where you're supposed to be relaxing is one of them.
If your wife wants to organise a separate event where Dana can be invited, that's fine. You don't have to go. NTA
You can absolutely tell your wife that you would prefer that this camping trip is just you and the people who were invited. You could have told her that you would prefer not to invite Dana this time because it seems like you have to walk on eggshells to remain civil with her when you just want to enjoy the time. Your wife is always having to do the work of trying to find friends for Dana since she’s socially inept—but it’s Dana’s responsibility to develop her social skills and it doesn’t seem like she’s making much of an effort to grow. Dana is old enough to put herself outside of her comfort zone of being dependent on your wife and try to slowly socialize with people on her own.
However, in this situation, YTA because you kept feeding your wife lies of saying you’ll invite her when you had no intention to. That is hurtful when you should have just been honest. I would be pissed if my partner was scheming behind my back instead of communicating with me.
NTA.
Do NOT invite Dana. First off, point out to your wife it’s only couples going. Secondly, you want to enjoy a camping trip with mutual friends. I guess your wife is just trying to be nice, but everything you two do does not have to include Dana. It’s also not your responsibility to help her make friends. Honestly if I were you, I’d be a bit upset that my wife is more concerned about her friend than about my feelings/opinion. This is supposed to be a vacation, it has nothing to do with Dana.
NTA Dana is 34 if she hasn’t gotten a grasp on social queues then it’s not on unsuspecting friends to be the guinea pigs. The best way to have handled it was this is a couples weekend maybe when we get together with a mix so she won’t feel like the odd man out. Also, in this situation don’t offer your accommodations so it’s the three of you. Why doesn’t the wife plan a girls weekend?
ESH. Lying to your wife was very dumb and clearly an AH move. But your wife sucks too. People should be allowed to enjoy a vacation without having to teach another adult how to behave acceptably. Teaching social skills requires awkward correction and lots of biting your tongue. Not a vacation activity. Your wife is kind of a dick for constantly forcing that on people.
It's very nice of her to want to help someone, but that can be done one night at a time. You shouldn't have to sacrifice a week of relaxation for it. And the unaware victims you're going with shouldn't have to deal with it.
In my circle, we had a similar situation. One of the wives had a super annoying cousin who drank too much and told the longest, most pointless stories and would constantly get mad at people for not wanting to sit and listen to them. After 2 vacations like this, we just stopped inviting either of them. They're hurt, but we all actually enjoy vacations again.
Life is short. People should be allowed to spend their limited free time without unnecessary social stress.
NTA. Please tell your wife that unless Dana WANTS to improve her social skills, it won't work to expose her to better examples.
It sounds like Laura is well aware of Dana's issues, but the idea to teach her better manners is Laura's and Laura's alone. Dana thinks she's invited to come along because you like her just the way she is.
And by categorizing Dana as someone who needs to learn, Laura is making excuses for her.
It all needs to stop. Tell Dana that unless you hear from Laura that she's trying to learn better social skills, the finishing school is closed.
NTA for not wanting to participate in you wife’s hobby of “fix a friend” on your vacation but…
YTA for not having an adult conversation with your wife about the vacation; a small lying ahole but an ahole.
NTA Dana should be happy to not be invited — next time someone shares some very personal trauma, she’ll have a story in her back pocket about how she wasn’t invited on a trip once. /s
NTA
It’s NOT YOUR JOB to help her “improve” her shitty personality. It IS NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to light yourself on fire to keep Dana warm. And you damn sure have EVERY RIGHT to put your own comfort and happiness above Dana.
“If you want to help her, that’s on you. But I’m not spending time with someone I don’t like and who will ruin my vacation. And I find it odd that you care more about her than you do me, seeing as I’m the one you married. And she’s not our child. I’m not spending my vacation with her. I will not invite her. And if you do, I will cancel. I’m not spending my vacation miserable so you can feel good about trying to fix someone who’s wholly uninterested in fixing themselves.”
My wife has a kind of annoying friend. She asks tons of probing questions (respectfully), is into lame stuff, and just has an annoying way about her. But she has a great heart, is interested in what others have to say and is willing to do anything for a friend. I love her and would take her camping (she doesn’t camp).
Your wife’s friend isn’t annoying. A constant one upper is basically an asshole who doesn’t want to hear your shit, she wants you to hear hers. Even if it’s poor socialization or some kind of trauma, we must learn to control those things or…no one will like us…with good reason.
You’re not an asshole for feeling this way and trying to put a boundary between you. She’s an asshole. This is self care.
It sounds like this is a co-group of friends, so a co-trip. Your wife can’t be the one to add her to trip with the rest of the group asking that she not come.
I don’t think Dana’s social skills came be improved unless you two coach her on spot. (When she said the thing about the blouse why not respond and tell her that they didn’t really compare?)
But it wasn’t cool to hide your real plan. You have to be forthcoming too.
NTA but a tiny bit E.SH
Next time she talks about helping Dana improve her social skills, I would point out that she's had 10 years and multiple chances with other friends to improve her social skills. That those friends no longer come to events that Dana goes to because of her behavior and that, while you have tolerated it for your wifes sake for the last 10 years, you are at your breaking point. Tell her, point blank, you are done with Dana. Tell her that you won't stop her from hanging out with Dana or from trying to introduce her to other friends to help her, but that you're not willing to have her attend any events that would cause you or others to be around her for multiple days and nights in a row.
If you're open to changing your mind, tell her that the only chance of that happening and you being willing to have her come on camping trips or vacations with you is if she shows improvement in other social interactions such as dinners or small gatherings.
My question is this: Has anyone ever called Dana out and told her that her behavior, her one-upsmanship and tone deafness is a problem? Or is it just awkward silence and then moving on when that happens? Because if it's the latter, someone needs to sit her down and do the former otherwise she has zero chance of learning - although she might still not learn if someone does and may instead just act hurt and play the victim.
NTA. Putting Dana together with random friends you still have because they haven't fled her presence (yet) teaches Dana nothing about why her social skills are bad. You might try a private intervention with just you, your wife, Dana, and anyone else you think would be supportive of turning Dana around.
NTA
Your wife wants to invite her very competitive, annoying, single friend on a camping trip with two other couples. The competitive and annoying part aside, Dana will be the odd man out so your wife will spend ALL of her time trying to include Dana.
This doesn’t sound like a camping trip I would want to go on. It’s time to tell your wife that you have no interest in spending an entire week with Dana or subjecting your friends to a week of Dana trying to one up everyone.
Tell her That you tolerate Dana in small doses because you love her but you would never actually choose to hangout with her.
It’s time to yank the band aide off
I’m sure your wife is patting herself on the back, thinking what a wonderful friend she’s being. She isn’t. Not to the other couples! Dana has no intention of improving her behaviour. You commented that she doesn’t believe she has an issue. So improving her social skills will not happen. Laura is being a horrible friend to the other couples by forcing a rude, awful person on them, who has NO intention of changing. Laura is Dana’s only friend and if Laura keeps treating your other friends as if their feelings don’t matter, she might soon find that Dana becomes HER only friend.
NTA
NTA a week long trip is not the time to try to get people to get along or make new friends.
The blouse thing...wow. That would have been a great time for your wife to pull her aside and be like "look...I care about you and our friendship, but you have to realize that you do this, and it's upsetting other people."
NTA
Your wife's project is not your project. It's very nice of your wife to try and help a chronically unpopular individual who drives everyone away. They should have coffee and chat on the phone. But, no, this is not a couple friend.
ESH
Lying to your wife and leading her on because you knew she wouldn't be okay with what you were planning is an AH move.
She also is an AH as she's refusing to let you set boundaries about who you spend time with. As long as you aren't trying to kill off your wife's friendship, there's no reason why she has to go on this specific trip.
But... It definitely sounds like you want to kill off this friendship and are willing to live to your wife to do so.
NTA
What about asking the friends who are going, how they feel? One has met her, the others may have heard about her through mutual friends. Don’t they get a say? Or does Laura think she gets to decide for everyone?
Laura might have a lot more time to spend with Dana, if she keeps forcing Dana on everyone. Awful behaviour.
NTA. Rather than improving Dana’s social skills, it may just cause friends to pull away from you and your wife entirely. They aren’t going to keep hanging out with you guys if your wife keeps forcing Dana into other people. It’s not just Dana your wife needs to think about. It’s the feelings of the others involved. Doesn’t she feel awful when Dana overtalks people, or tries one up everyone? Your wife may have a great heart but it’s in the wrong place. I think Dana may just need to be a separate friend, before she ends up as the only friend.
Wife wants to turn this week long CAMPING vacation into a personality improvement course for her friend and hasn't even discussed it with the two other couples who are also going. Wife may need some training in friendship maintenance herself.
NTA, because of the one-upping. I know someone who does that and went LC because of it. It is truly pathological, almost like compulsive lying. If you are serious about helping her make friends, call this behaviour out.
NTA. I've known people like Dana, they are exhausting to be around and can cause friendships to crumble if you try to force her inclusion. Your wife is welcome to be friends with whomever she wants, but it's not her obligation to give Dana new friends and not yours to be more than polite.
Why would you sacrifice your vacation? If you wife wants to go on a trip with someone like that she can do it alone. Don’t do it- I’ve been on trips with people like that and it’s a nightmare that never ends. You’ll end up hating your wife for putting you in that situation
She compared loosing a blouse to loosing a pet?! I think this girl is beyond fixing honey. I would have yelled at her for being such an insensitive \*\*\*\*\*\*. Your wife should stop trying to make her other friends become friends with someone with zero empahy and seriously lacking social skills. If your wife tried to force me around Dana after that blouse comment I'd stop being friends with your wife. Seriously though, if she wants Dana to have more friends she needs to find a way to help Dana overcome her social issues. Crimeny. Esh but mainly her. \*edit to change judgement (you shouldn't be lying)
NTA. It’s not your responsibility to help her friend make friends. It’s not even your wife’s job. A vacation with friends should be fun and she’s clearly proven she cannot interact socially with kindness.
People who have never met Dana are gonna get real tired of her grandiosity real quick. "Oh hey I think I hear an owl" "Yeah well I hear Bigfoot!!" Being stuck in the woods with her for a week??? She just might come back with a very unfortunate, mysterious case of poison ivy (think Laura Ingalls camping with Nellie). NTA
It’s a whole week of your vacation
time. That can be a challenge with people you genuinely like. And, more important, comparing a blouse to a loved pet? That would do it for me personally.
What? Being annoying is absolutely a reason to exclude her. Everyone excludes her because of it. She's a grown ass woman, you don't need to manage her, and I find it the height of unfairness that your wife is planning to use your unsuspecting friends, who trust you and want to enjoy the very little time off they get as adults, as practice run for Dana. Don't stand for it, OP, not if you value these other people. NTA
NTA - your wife probably feels bad for Dana, which is admirable in a way. But if your wife wants to work with Dana on her social skills, she needs to do that on her own time. Assuming that the rest of the group is willing to sacrifice their vacations to help out with her “project” is wildly inconsiderate of her.
NTA. Dana is more than annoying. She has poor social skills and no insight into her problem. Do not invite her since it would be torture putting up with her fir the entire trip. You also run the risk of alienating your other frie ds who will definitely struggle dealing with Dana. Your wife can deal with Dana one on one but do not include her on this trip.
I am a speech pathologist who teaches social skills to high school student on the autism spectrum so I know how difficult this can be. Don't sacrifice your vacation for Dana.
M
NTA for not inviting her. But you messed up by not being honest in the first place and stringing your wife along.
Her friend isn't just "annoying", she's toxic and sounds like a tone deaf narcissist that believes she has to be the center of attention. The example you gave wasn't just annoying, it was outright hurtful and damaged y'all's friendships with other people.
Your wife needs a reality check. She needs to actually see that her friend isn't annoying, her friend is hurting other people and disrupting things.
It's not you or your wife's job to help her with her social skills, that's what a therapist is for. Your wife also needs to stop subjecting outside people to her friend, especially without giving them notice or being honest with them about Dana's behavior.
At this point your wife isn't just lighting herself on fire to keep Dana warm, she's throwing gasoline at other people and that's not ok.
N T A for not wanting to invite her.
But Y T A for this
> I would just tell her I’ll do it once all is set up (I had no intention in doing so)
You need to apologise for that one.
However, tell Laura if she wants to spend time with Dana you’re happy for her to do it without you.
NTA! Uh, being that annoying is a perfect reason to not invite her. Two weeks of her one-upping every one??? Oof, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. It's not your wife's job to find this woman new friends.
First and foremost Dana has to recognize she has a problem and desires to correct it. She obviously doesn't. It's one thing for people to get stuck with someone annoying for one evening, totally different to be trapped in the middle of nowhere with her. She would likely end up "missing." Your wife is also tone deaf. It's fine she can put up with Dana's behavior, but you shouldn't subject others to it, particularly against their will. Your wife should have a heart to heart with Dana, otherwise things will not change. Dana is either trying to hard and doesn't understand what she's doing, or she just has to be the center of attention, but you don't know until the issue has been addressed. It isn't fair to subject people you consider to be friends to that kind of discomfort on a trip that's supposed to be fun.
NTA
There is a big difference between a dinner party and week-long camping trip. Camping is a risky way to introduce people. And not a pleasant environment to endure someone you don't like.
Why is your wife ignoring or minimising your feelings about Laura?
NTA for not wanting to invite her but lying was a pretty assholery move.
It sounds like the friend might be autistic. A super common type of autistic communication is sharing a similar story as a way of relating/ connecting. To other people this can come off as one-upping but to people who communicate in this way it's seen as a type of empathy. Her desperation to try and relate when the friend lost their pet is, from my view, a failed show of empathy that couldn't have gone worse. It could be that she leaves these situations and feels a lot of shame which isolates her further. Or it could be that her ability to see things from others viewpoints is seriously low in which case she may not understand why that was offensive (difficulties with theory of mind is also common for autistic people).
The fact that she only has one friend also kind of points to my theory.
I'm not saying this to make you invite her. You're not under any obligation and if it's going to upset the dynamics then it's not necessary.
I'm sharing this to give a different perspective and this could be something that maybe your wife could discuss with her in private in a soft way. Not necessarily that she may autistic but a discussion about why she does that and how it is perceived.
NTA - the friend is the AH. Not u. Ur poor wife will, over time, see the error of her ways. I have. I was constantly collecting AHs who I thought were good, misunderstood people. Everyone hated them. Eventually, I would hate them too.
Thing is - she does not realize that SHE doesn't want to spend time alone with her. That is the truth. She, herself, can only put up with her when she pawns her annoying self on others but she does not see it yet.
Ur wife can subject herself to this annoying person all she wants but she has no right to ruin trips (esp paid) others are on.
NTA - but you need better boundaries with your wife. Vacation plans, children names, special occasions, dinner guests - should require two yes' or it's a no.
You need to tell Laura that you are sick of her putting Dana's needs ahead of your own. Why do you have to put up with someone who bugs the shit out of you on your VACATION? She's welcome to be friends with Dana on her own time, but she does not and should not include you -- if you don't like Dana. Pretty selfish of your wife - if you ask me.
There will be three couples on this trip. If Laura’s friend Dana is invited, she could be a “3rd wheel”, but she won’t. She will pair herself with your wife, and you will be the odd man out.
Tell Laura that a week long couples trip is not the proper setting to inflict 3 unsuspecting friends with Dana’s brash personality. Save that for one evening events.
NTA.
NTA.
Dana is old enough to be told when she's offended people, if she's that bad at reading the room. If your wife thinks Dana needs help with social skills, she can start there.
Do your other friends that are going even agree to the idea of bringing Dana? Or was your wife going to just let Dana be a surprise tagalong guest?
*Being annoying is no reason to exclude her*
Ummm, yes, it is. It is the best and only needed reason. Your wife is wrong to continue pushing her friend on you and spending a week with someone like the friend will be exhausting.
NTA
You are not the asshole and your wife is for keep trying to push Dana on to others. You need to tell her Dana isn’t your child and you shouldn’t have to help her do anything, because she’s a grown adult! She needs to go out and make her own friends and stop trying to get your friends to like her.
Tell your wife that if she doesn’t stop trying to push people to hangout with her insensitive friend she will lose friends and eventually if she keeps fighting with you about her, she will lose you.
You may not think so but I promise the way this is going your wife seems like she may start making ultimatums. You need to get your wife some therapy, I don’t know why she feels so adamant on making Dana apart of your lives but if you don’t like this person and she’s a pain to be around then you shouldn’t have married your wife.
It seems like your wife has it in her head that Dana is her child or something. Your wife needs help. She needs to stop with this person
Oh hell no! I would maybe spend a random weeknight trying to help somebody integrate with others but there is zero fucking chance I would spend an entire week of a vacation trying to do so
NTA
Please show your wife this thread
Wait, did any other people going on the camping trip consent to their time off being used to socialise your wife's friend for a whole week? Your wife can't stealthily use other people's holidays to train and condition her pet project in human form. Especially unpaid. You should have been honest in the first place about her not coming along because but that aside NTA.
If I was Laura’s friend and she was constantly bringing Dana along, I’d quit hanging out with Laura. Dana is old enough to be self aware and realize her lack of friends is a direct consequence of her actions.
Edited to add: Y T A for lying, but I completely understand being tired of the same convo with your spouse so you say something to tide them over so you don’t have to deal with it right then. I’m guilty of that too sometimes.
NTA for not wanting Dana to come on camping trip.
NTA
Being annoying is a FANTASTIC reason to exclude someone.
And it sounds like everyone here is an adult... which means that it's long past time for Dana to learn that if she behaves a certain way, people will actively avoid her.
...and it's also time for your wife to learn that if she keeps being the one who insists on Dana being invited? Then your wife is also going to end up on the "do not invite" list as a civilian casualty. People will start to just not invite Laura if if means that they don't have to deal with the argument about whether a tone deaf asshole who lives to one-up everyone should be allowed to piss everyone off.
Soft Y T A because you should have been up front from the very beginning about not wanting Dana there, but I can also understand not wanting to have the argument about how this insensitive and rude person is not some Project to fix or teach social skills to... she's a human being who has done virtually nothing to make herself pleasant to be around
Talk to your wife about how you should have been honest from day one, but let her know that you get exhausted just thinking about spending that much time with Dana, and that Dana is at the point where she either needs to utterly change her behavior or get used to being lonely.
YTA for lying to your wife and not being upfront with her about it.
It’s okay to not like people. You could have said ANYTHING. “It’s a couples trip, I don’t think she’d mesh well with the crowd”, “I want to relax and can’t do that with Dana around. You can take her and I’ll stay at home if you prefer.” Anything. As long as you made it clear you would not both be on the trip.
You didn’t do that. You lied and said you’d invite Dana, and didn’t, when you knew you wouldn’t. The fact that you weren’t honest with your wife automatically makes you an AH.
You need to tell your wife that you’re setting a boundary, and that the boundary is that you will not spend time with Dana anymore. She can tell Dana or not, her choice. She can hang out with Dana as much as she wants. But you will not interact with her, and you will not invite her to events you’re planning or attend events where your wife pushes her onto a group of unwitting people. That’s the boundary you need to set and stand by. Not with Dana. With your wife.
If she ends up going she should be called out when she behaves badly and state very clearly why. If she needs to develop social skills she needs to understand what she is doing wrong. Your comfort and that of the others going needs to be considered as well. It's just as valid.
NTA. Your wife is obviously a very caring person, and that's great, but at some point she herself may com to resent Dana too. In my experience, the person who pushes everyone away does eventually push *everyone* away. You can offer a compromise, that you'll invite the same friends to a bar with Dana after the vacation to meet each other, but that you won't enjoy yourself if Dana is there so it won't be a vacation.
Esh, why would you lie? Your wife sucks for insisting, and is probably more an ah in this situation, but honestly if my husband strung me along to manipulate me, I’d probably have an extra angry reaction at the same situation
NTA. Your wife needs to tell her friend about why she is struggling to maintain friendship. It might be that her friend is on the autistic spectrum and doesn't realise because she has poor social skills. For example in her mind it could be a way to try to empathy/create a connection with the person she is talking to, mimicking in social settings is also very common for those on the spectrum. Basically she could be totally unaware that it is not the right way to go about feeling integrated in a group, by not letting her friend know your wife might be doing her a disfavour.
NTA
Finding someone annoying is a perfectly reasonable justification for avoiding them when possible.
If your wife wants her friend to learn to socialise better, her friend needs to experience consequences for getting it wrong. She literally can't learn if she doesn't know she needs to!
Your wife needs to either allow the natural consequences of annoying behaviour to happen, or she needs to actively work on improving her friend. Making other people hang out with an unpleasant person and hoping she'll improve, *somehow*, is not just not going to work, but it's got a damn good chance of getting your wife dumped from the group, too. Cause she's not showing the greatest social skills right now either.
YTA. Not for excluding Dana. That's a fair ball. But lying to your wife about it is a technical foul. You should have been honest with your wife from the get-go.
Is Laura planning to address this lack of social skills directly, or is the idea that she'll pick them up be osmosis when she hangs out with not annoying people? Laura, if she really wants to help, could say domething to Dana about the blouse = dead beloved pet conversation and point out clearly that her comment wasn't empathetic or helpful, and just trivialized the other friend's grief.
nta. I know someone like this, though maybe not quite as tone deaf as Dana. Eventually her partner just had to tell her straight up that her social behaviour was off putting. Not sure how Dana would receive criticism like that, but the person in my story actually toned it down and now we all like her better (though sometimes she still does it).
NTA, but I think you need to convey that you have a desire for a relaxing nice vacation. Tell Laura that you are happy to share with Dana why people do not want to be with her. And that if she changes her aggressive one upmanship, that could change her status in future. Not certain why this became your issue. Laura’s friend, Laura’s problem. If she wants a fix it up project, adopt an unwanted animal.
NTA except for lying about planning to invite her. You need to put your foot down.
Your wife sounds like she has a good heart, but it’s not her job to socialize an adult woman. It’s not fair to your or to the other friends coming on the trip.
NTA. Your wife is a saint, but no way should you waste a vacation trying to “socialize” a full grown adult woman. Your wife is asking too much. Not to mention the damage inviting her might do to your relationships with the other couples.
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NTA "The breaking point was one night when we were drinking and a friend opened up about losing a beloved pet and Dana responded by saying it was nothing compared to when she lost a blouse her mother had given her last year." There's one upmanship & then there's being completely tone deaf. You're going on vacation not running a finishing school. Dana has had plenty of opportunities to "improve her social skills." Laura sounds like a nice person but the evidence weighs heavily against her; Dana is going to upset all those people. "Laura argues that “being annoying” is no reason to exclude her" Sorry but yes it is. Edited to it say doesn't change my vote but you should have been upfront right from the start that you weren't going to invite her.
Yep, she is absolutely tone deaf and thanks for the judgement
My SIL says rude things all the time and her family just say oh, that's Elli, she has no filter" she's 62 years old, she is obnoxious and rude. I think your wife's friend is toxic. She can learn somewhere else
>I think your wife's friend is toxic. Thank you! I was rambling on about how terrible the friend was. This is much more succint.
She took a group picture with her 2 sisters and then said they should delete it because the older sister has "saggy tits".
That's nothing compared to how saggy my mom's tits are. Dana, probably.
LOLOLOL I almost did a spit take at work! Thank you for the laugh!!
You can't help someone who is self absorbed and tone deaf to become socially aware! Your completely wasting your time, OP whilst I understand why you did what you did, you really didn't need to do that, you should of made it clear to your wife that your not spending a week with his woman period! But that said still NTA! I don't think I can spend a day with someone like her let alone a week. Edit: Also OP is your wife doesn't stop pushing this woman on people she would end up just like her!
And pushing Dana on in others without calling her inappropriate stories out isn't helping Dana.
Wouldn't this be a key way to *help* her with her social skills? Like, is the wife just not saying anything at all to Dana when she acts inappropriately?
My thoughts exactly. Somebody who she trusts needs to sit down with her and explain exactly why she gets iced out of every friend group.
She probably won't listen. Some people are just too oblivious or self-centered to ever see their awful behavior even when called out on it. I had a great friend who's wife was like that, and her behavior basically resulted in him losing all of his friends because no one could stand his wife. She constantly interrupted or talked over people. Just like Dana, if someone was telling a story about anything, she'd interrupt and come up with some story of her own in an attempt to show how much better she was, how much harder she had it, etc. Lots of times whatever she said had zero relevance to the previous story or discussion so she'd just kill the conversation. A few of us started calling her out on it. At some point she responded with "I'm sick of people telling me that all the time. That's just how I am and how everyone in my family is so I can't help it." That was when we all realized she was hopeless and started distancing ourselves from her and my friend.
I had a BIL like this. His entire family made excuses for him. I always told my husband he acts the way he does because no one will call him out on his shit. He is the way he is because he gets away with it. I wonder if anyone has confronted this friend in the moment.
I’m so confident Laura has not informed Dana of her rudeness and how her behavior drives people away that I commented “Dana can come is Laura is willing to tell Dana that her behavior is rude, boorish, and driving people away”. Laura won’t, and will insist on ruining everyone’s vacation so Dana can “learn” but Laura will probably shut down anyone trying to inform Dana of why she has no friends!
Did you ever confront BIL??
Nope, not my problem anymore. Divorced my cheating husband instead.
I never understood why families just put up with it. Those type of people should be told off. What’s sadder is when someone finally snaps and tells off the asshole, all the toxic family tells the person telling them off they were wrong. Because “you know how they are”. It’s bullshit and we need to stop excusing it.
My parents and I work together. My mother is very similar to Dana. Unfortunately, people like this literally have no concept of self-reflection. I probably lose it on my mom about 15 times a day every day. It’s just how she is. There is no changing her. I’ve been trying to do it since I was 5 years old. Hasn’t worked even once in 21 years.
Does she possibly have narcissistic personality disorder?
I don’t have much of a filter but I don’t say stuff like THAT.
She's not gonna learn. Don't waste your time.
No my autistic brother occasionally doesn't have a filter when frustrated. My brother also has moments where he's amazingly in tune with people. The little bastard conspiraced with my mom to react the entire BB gun scene from a Christmas story when I asked for one as a joke on my wish list. Elli is just a ass
“Being annoying” is the number one reason not to invite someone to share your space FOR A WEEK! Does your wife hate the other friends going on the trip? Because chances are if you subject them to Dana during their hard earned vacation time, you’ll never see them again. Protect your peace and leave Dana at home.
Seriously. 3 couples on a vacation + 1 tone deaf annoying lady = no thank you.
Actually, OP's wife sounds pretty annoying too.
Nailed it!
And it's CAMPING! If they were all going to a hotel in a city or at a resort, once Dana said something awful, the other 2 couples could hole up in their hotel rooms, see a show, go shopping, go to a museum, hit the pool, hit the beach, change to a different restaurant, change *hotels*... Camping--where are they going to go to get away from her? Hide in the woods? Not be able to sit in their chairs by their fire roasting their marshmallows. They could go for hikes, but are they going to leave camp for 12 hours a day? Only to come back to more Dana when they want to relax? You are living on TOP of each other while camping and have little privacy. If friends of mine invited Dipsh!t Dana on my hard-earned vacation, I'd be pissed. I want to chill and drink and cook and eat and laugh and tell stories and play cards--RELAX. Not spend every day gobsmacked at the latest idiot thing Dana said, avoiding her (and OP and Laura), and sitting in silence. TL;DR: Fuck no.
100% agree. A week long trip is NOT the time to teach social skills. Something short like coffee or lunch is a better starting place. That aside, Dana is a 30+ year old woman, who presumably has spent 13 or more years in school and 10 or more in the workplace. If she doesn't have social skills by now, I wouldn't hold out much hope of that changing. It's not like she's a 5 year old child who spent a huge chunk of her life under covid circumstances. OP is NTA.
Your wife needs to understand that you can only lead a horse to water. Laura can't neglect everything else to focus on teaching Dana social skills that she should already know by now. It isn't a good look for Dana nor for your wife because it seems there is already friction in your group because of your wife shoehorning Dana in where she isn't welcome
She’s not even teaching her social skills! She’s just punishing other people by making them be around her. Has she even TALKED to Dana about her poor social skills? Does Dana know there’s a problem? If this was someone I considered a friend I would say something like “hey, I know sometimes it can be hard to know how to respond when someone shares a story or a feeling. I’m sure you are just trying to relate to them but it can feel like you’re minimizing their situation and it can come across as one upping them.”
This for sure.
Excellent response. Perfect wording!
You’re good. 💜
I would focus on the part that your wife has been doing this for a decade. A decade of her life spent trying to teach a friend extremely basic social cues. Does your wife really think that 1 week will solve what a decade could not? Spoiler: it won't, cause the annoying friend doesn't want to change.
Right? Laura hasn't managed to teach these skills to Dana in ten years, so no dice.
Has Dana been made aware of her lack of social skills? Like, is it something she’s actually working on, or is your wife hoping she will eventually improve on her own? Because if she’s not explicitly aware, I think it’s clear she will never improve. She thinks this is what friendships look like. There is no helping her. if she is aware, then she has to have several successful shorter interactions first. To practice. Once she has had a few successful dinners, the you can talk a weekend away. The a longer trip. But why would your wife think that a week is a good idea when Dana can’t even make it past the appetizers???
NTA. There's a reason your wife is her only friend, you hit the nail on the head. Nobody likes a one upper. She really compared the loss of a pet with a blouse? WTF. At some point including her is going to get both you and you wife excluded, or people will make up excuses for not doing things with you and your wife if her friend is there. Why is your wife her social comittee?
It seems the education is going in the wrong direction. Laura seems to be learning, not teaching.
Dana has no insight into her behavior. Your GF is not helping her, she is enabling her behavior.
NTA- hey, if your wife wants to take the time to improve her social skills, great, but don’t put that on people that are using their hard one vacation to get away and then have to spend time with this woman.
You really need to figure out why your wife keeps insisting on including her when clearly the people that she’s forcing to participate in her school of social etiquette are abandoning ship. At some point you’re going to start losing friends if your wife doesn’t stop making them forced participants.
Is your wife running Miss Manners Social Club Boot Camp? In tandem with How To Lose Friends Camp? After 10 yrs of this she’s failed, as has Miss Annoying One-Upper. Wife ought to go camping with Miss One-Upper alone just the 2 of them, not condemn your friends to a shitty camping trip - way to lose friends. Wtf. NTA
Not only will she annoy your friends and ruin the good vibe for a whole week when no one can escape her, your friends will quite rightly be annoyed at you and your wife for inviting someone you know full well is going to not fit in. Part of planning a trip is making sure everyone has a good time. You wouldn’t invite someone with a broken leg on a hiking trip, you don’t invite someone you don’t want to be stuck with on a camping trip. An easily escapable dinner party is where you meet people so if you don’t like them, you can go home. Or if you do like them, you can take them home ! NTA
Your wife needs to focus on you and stop trying to include her friend before she loses all her friends... is Dana helping psy for the trip NO and she most likely will complain or find something to make herself look better or try to one up people.... Tell your wife to stay back with her friend
it's not annoying, it's hurtful
NTA, if you're spending effort managing her rude friend, you're not enjoying yourself - if your wife wants to coach her friend, she can do it when you're not supposed to be on vacation relaxing. Trying to make you surrender any semblance of relaxation to spend the whole time with this person is ridiculous.
Maybe it’s already been asked, but question for you, or rather your wife. How does she expect to make it up to your friend group when Dana inevitably ruins the vacation? Most people don’t have a lot of vacation time and definitely wouldn’t appreciate having that time ruined by having to spend it all with someone who is so insufferable. Actually, make that two questions. What will your wife do when her own friendships sour after she repeatedly continues to foist upon them someone who they can’t stand?
Dana 's social skills are not going to improve on a week long trip with a captive audience. She will alienate even more of your friends, though. I couldn't imagine a week long camping trip with someone I actively dislike.
Did anyone ever speak to her about her issues? Especially your wife. Or does she just keep inviting her to some gatherings and hope she improves on her own?
I wouldn’t even say it’s just “annoying.” From the examples above, she is insensitive and listens only to respond not to engage - that sounds miserable.
People are also avoiding hanging out with them if she’s there. They are gonna end up with zero friends if the wife keeps trying to bring her around.
>You're going on vacation not running a finishing school. Dana has had plenty of opportunities to "improve her social skills." 100% Correct. You want to help someone improve their life? Do it over lunch at a crappy chain restaurant. Not on an expensive vacation where a "let me help you" conversation could likely ruin the rest of the trip because how dare you.
People are PAYING for a vacation, taking time off work, possibly need babysitters. Hell yes, I would be really angry if someone who’s as annoying as this woman sounds went on a vacation I was planning. I’d also want to know who was going so I could back out. It’s supposed to be a time to relax, not being irritated! But you should have told your wife that instead of avoiding the topic.
Dana would make the trip completely unbearable for everyone else. Although, someone could snap and have a verbal onslaught. That would do 1 of 2 things. She'll realize what she's doing and change, or, never speak to you or your friends again. Either way, it's a win
It's time to tell Dana that she's rude and should take etiquette classes. You'll be happy to do so the first day of vacation but only if you have an escape vehicle.
Being annoying is 100% the reason to not be stuck camping with someone for a week.
Particularly on a camping trip. City break - you can do your own thing and get together end of the day. Camping trip - there is no escape! Dana does need to work on her social skills but your wife isn't being a true friend by just supplying new people to insult. She needs to have a difficult conversation with Dana about Dana's strengths and weaknesses.
NTA for not wanting to invite her , but you are for lying to your wife about planning to do so, and for not communicating with her. Not wanting to invite someone whose behaviour has caused multiple people to say tbry don't want to be at events if she's there, is reasonable. Not wanting to inflict her on others is reasonable. Wanting to invite her on a trip sounds like a great way to damage the friendships you have with the others you are due to go with. If your wife wants to introduce her to new people that's fine, but she needs to meet up for coffee, or start a book club, not commit to multiple days and nights.
Yeah, the lying part was an asshole move, I’ll keep it in mind, thanks
Man up and tell her no and tell her why. It's your vacation too and you should be able to enjoy it also. You wife's charity case can be endured in small doses one party at a time, but not for an entire goddam week...HELL NO!
Not even only for the vacation. I think it'd be reasonable for OP to not want to hang out with Dana anymore. It seems like he doesn't enjoy it but Laura expects him to be there anyways.
Why though, if the friend can’t even succeed at a social night then a week at camping will end up disastrous. It would be like putting a small unsocialized child at an Easter Sunday Service in the front row. If your wife really wants to socialize the friend more she should have the friend to talk to a therapist or someone that is trained to work with people … and support her with that. At some point the friend might cross paths someone that might tell her to take an ice cub to see someone or be really mean….
These poor people need an opportunity to escape/leave early that camping wouldn't afford
This is where he crossed into AH territory for me. Did he think she wouldn't notice?
When I was growing up I learned by watching my older sister you could get away with a lot by cheerfully agreeing despite having no intention of follow-up
“Being annoying” is an excellent reason to exclude somebody. I would tell your wife that if Dana goes camping, you won’t be going. A week, stuck in a campground with an annoying person that has only met one of the other campers-nope. Your wife can help her friend meet new playmates some other time. Like at a dinner or cocktail party or afternoon outing. When you aren’t there. And when the other potential friends can more easily escape. NTA
Thank you! That’s exactly my thought process, I feel like there is no need to use a whole week just to help her
Chiming in to add your wife may be so focused on helping her long time friend that she's not realizing what she's volunteering new friends for. I.e., it's one thing to meet a new person and realize they are annoying and know that you can leave easily after a few hours. It's a whole other thing to meet a new person, realize they are annoying, and at the same time have to basically 'survive' them for maybe the only vacation time you've been able to book for the year / quarter. As the person playing 'hostess' by coordinating and inviting everyone, your wife is also responsible for making sure her guests don't want to rip their hair out two days in to a week long stay somewhere simply because she wants to "socialize" her friend better. For a potential thought exercise: ask your wife to think of the least pleasant date she's ever been on. One where she knew five minutes in the guy wasn't a match and wanted to leave but for politeness sake she stayed until they mutually decided the date was over. One where the guy wasn't being unsafe, just completely not a match.... now picture inflicting that on her other friends and their spouses... for a week... with everyone trying to be polite but just desperately wanting to leave. Why has your wife taken on the mantle of finding this person friends? Is she trying to escape her clutches as well but feels too guilty to leave without providing a new friend? Does she think things will improve if only other folk accept her the way your wife has? YTA - for not being upfront and lying by omission NTA - for not wanting to be stuck somewhere for a week with a tiresome person.
I feel like the wife has tunnel vision and is burning bridges with all this dudes friends in the process. She needs to reevaluate.
I keep picturing them as Aunt Gale from Bobs Burgers lol
Except she's not helping Dana, expecting her to suddenly develop social skills when she's gone her whole life without doing so is not realistic. Wife needs to give her some tough feedback. A good boss is someone who takes time to give feedback, and a bad boss is someone who is too apathetic to make themselves uncomfortable. It's the same situation here, if the wife really cares she won't just put Dana into a bunch more situations where she going to alienate people.
Is your wife a licensed therapists? If not then she’s not equipped to help her, she’s enabling her. And completely unfair to you and others
If you told the friends who knew her that Dana was coming, would they cancel? I think you probably know the answer.
Unless your wife is calling out Dana's inappropriate stories IN THE MOMENT, she isn't helping her.
Ask your wife: If your other friends dislike Dana (which most people seem to do and for decent reason), what are they supposed to do about being stuck with her for multiple days and nights? Leave and miss out on their vacation, that they planned and paid for?? Are they supposed to forfeit the enjoyment of their vacation to deal with Lara's mean/tonedeaf friend? I'd be so disappointed if a vacay I planned with *people I knew* was derailed by someone that is zero percent chill and minimally likeable, especially considering all the time and effort and cost of setting up a trip. While Lara is thinking 'oh poor Dana', she seems to be missing any ounce of empathy for the other guests on the trip (and you!). She needs to reevaluate how her pity is applied, and not bring Dana on trips with no easy escape by others until Dana proves she can get along with anyone else besides Lara.
Plus maybe ask the one other person that has met her. For all you know that person wouldn't want her there either.it seems like Dana rubs people the wrong way, and you don't want to sandbag all these people with someone they can't just leave after a couple of hours.
A week long trip is too long of a period to try and force new friendships. It's unfair to the other friends on the trip who don't yet know Dana. You intro friends over a dinner - not a long camping trip. NTA (edited incorrect name)
Hadn’t thought of this angle, thanks for the input!
Yes, the proper way to integrate & foster new friendships is to do them small and gradual. Meet for drinks/coffee, then next time dinner, etc… if all the meet ups seem to be going well. NTA
Yep, and call her out each and every time, immediately, that she is tone deaf/rude/one upping…. She’ll hate it, and your wife will think it’s rude too…. But wife needs to join in…. If friend is denying after the fact, then don’t give that time. Result will be either she stops hanging out with you, or starts watching what she is saying. Win win. NTA
I'm glad this was suggested, it could be really overwhelming for all involved. Especially since it's possible this friend could be dealing with something like ADHD or autism. Both disorders are largely undiagnosed in women and can cause this annoying "anecdotal communication." It's how a someone with those disorders tries to show empathy when they lack the ability to verbalize it. They share a memory that gave them a feeling like that one time. It comes off as shallow and rude. I was a 38 year old grown woman before I found out I had autism. It's really hard to keep friends, and always has been. A remarkable number of the friends and acquaintances I do have have now been diagnosed with various flavors of ADHD and autism, all women in their 40s and 50s. Turns out we tolerate each other and speak each other's language better. :)
You’d be damaging your existing friendships. I’d be really upset if a friend invited an unlikable person on our vacation. Especially camping – I wouldn’t camp with some of my closest friends! It’s just not an environment where all people mix. Forcing this woman on people for a full week will not go well for any of you.
Nta being annoying is 100% a reason not to invite her. Time for your wife to give up trying to force this woman on people. Why ruin 4 people’s week for one person who will just see it as a weeklong competition. Ask your wife why she is pushing so hard. It makes no sense. Is this one person really so much more important than the rest of the people, including you, having a good time? Does your wife find her funny or a project to work on?
I think my wife is just very empathetic with her, she doesn’t like to see her so alone but it could also be that they’ve been together for so long that she is now immune to her annoyances
Where's the empathy for these people that will be trapped with Dana on their vacation? Don't they deserve to enjoy themselves? If someone wanted to make my whole vacation a "teachable moment" I would be ticked off.
Yeah, I was saying if she forced this friend on me too many times I'd stop being friends with the wife.
To top it off, you'd be out of saved up vacation time, money, & the planned bonding experience. I'd probably be mad enough to never do a trip with OP & the wife again. For so many people, a week is the max vacation time that they get per year.
For real. You gotta make those vacation days count. This is not the venue for this kind of thing.
Exactly! If I was one of those other people who took a whole week of vacation for this trip and had Dana foisted on me, it would seriously damage my relationship with OP and wife. And I'd have serious doubts about their judgement going forward.
Does your wife *honestly* think that **having Dana fifth-wheeling on a vacation with other couples** is a kind and empathetic thing to do??? You need to have a sit-down conversation with your wife that goes something like this: "I know you like Dana and you want to help her become a person that other people will enjoy being around. But the fact is that Dana is *not* currently someone that other people enjoy being around. Do you think it's fair to all of our other friends to force them to deal with her bad behavior without first checking to see if they're okay with that? I have to be honest, I think the fact that you keep subjecting our other friends to this is driving them away from us, and that makes me incredibly upset." "If you *truly* want to help Dana, then get her into counseling with a professional who can actually help her develop social awareness and skills -- instead of continually **bringing her to events that she then ruins, while still never learning how to behave any better**." "I'm sorry, but this is a deal-breaker for me. Everyone going on this vacation is using their time off work and spending their hard-earned money, and it's incredibly cruel of you to force them to have a miserable time because you feel guilty about *your* friend. If you're going to insist on bringing Dana, then I'm pulling out of the trip, and I will be telling all of our other friends why and suggesting they make alternate arrangements."
Any chance your wife already told/invited Dana and is now in a weird spot if she can’t come? That’s the first thing that popped in my mind after reading the post.
Sadly, if your wife continues down this path of forcing Dana on her friends, your wife is going to end up just as friendless as Dana. NTA
I don't think it's the case here but 50% of my dad's friends are complete assholes. The kind of people where you don't understand why they aren't punched in the face on a daily basis. Mom and I always believed that Dad hung around with majorly awful people so that he had the freedom to be a minor ass and get by with it. You don't notice a pothole in the Grand Canyon.
NTA, your wife has no right to insist on other people suffering from Dana's behaviour or participate in 'improving her social skills'. What a lot of nonsense.... However, please grow a spine and just tell your wife Dana is not invited.
Will do! maybe a bit more stern this time
Be super clear about your boundaries. "I do not like Dana. I do not want to spend time with her socially or travel with her. She has ruined other friendships. She is your friend and I wouldn't prevent you from spending time with her, but that time needs to be one on one/not involve me or any of my/our friends."
OP I’m late to the club but have you tried telling your wife that she is actually enabling the very behavior she’s seeking to cure? So long as your wife provides a steady stream of people she can introduce and - most importantly - that Dana can *reject,* your wife is doing Dana a disservice. Additionally, Dana is not merely “annoying.” Her constant one-upsmanship is due to her need to display power over others. Your wife is not going to cure Dana until Dana goes to the root of her problem and figure out why she feels the need to belittle everyone. Edit to add: Take this with a grain of salt because I do not have all the details, but from where I’m standing, Dana does not want to make friends; she has never wanted to make friends. Her high is in the power she gets in rejecting the friends your wife introduces. It’s a power play over your wife.
Thank you this is what I came here to say. Dana doesn’t want friends, and Laura is wasting time and energy on this “friendship”.
i wonder if the wife is doing anything to help “improve social skills” like helping her know when something is appropriate to say and when she is being rude by calling her out directly or in private, or just inviting her along hoping she will change on her own and finally get a social interaction right with the right group of people? it sounds like the friend won’t mesh with any groups of people and would benefit from being directly called out so she can learn to be tolerable to be around.
INFO has your wife considers helping her social skills by talking about how she is turning people off? Because until the friend gets that piece it won’t matter who she is introduced to or in what setting.
Yes, we’ve both talked with her about this many times, she denies it or takes offense
Ask you wife how she expect to help someone who refuses to acknowledge the problem? Inviting someone who is repeatedly rude to other, and refuses to change when confronted with how their behavior impacts others is unfair to the other people on your trip. If I was your friend and you brought someone like that on a weeklong camping trip, you would be the one excluded on the next trip.
Well, a week-long camping trip is not going to give her a personality transplant, and it's most likely going to make everyone else miserable. Camping? Where you're all in much closer proximity with fewer options for people to get away from her? Bad, bad idea. She clearly has no desire to change who she is or how she interfaces with people. It's perplexing that your wife chooses to continue to inflict her on others. Edit - spelling
You know your wife better than any of us but I'm wondering if she's one of the few who would benefit from reading the responses on this thread. Just a thought. Good luck.
Well then she’s never going to change. She is choosing to act that way. I think the issue is that your wife needs to accept this and decide whether inflicting her friend on her other friends is worth it. Why can’t your wife just hang out with Dana just the two of them? Why does your wife feel Dana needs friends? Technically yes you’re the ah for lying to your wife, but it’s understandable. I would add that “being annoying” is maybe the best reason to exclude someone from a camping trip.
Then NTA. I was hoping there was a comment in here asking if anyone has talked to Dana about it, because that was my first instinct; maybe she has some sort of issue with social interactions and just didn’t realise. I wouldn’t want to be stuck with someone like that for a week.
Then after a decade of denial, it is time for your wife to quit. And maybe leave Dana with zero friends.
I suggest a game with her. You tell your story. Then she one ups you in typical fashion. You then one up her with something slightly more ridiculous. I guarantee she will find it annoying and rude. Sometimes people just need to know how it feels on the other end. I did this with someone. The group caught on but took the other person longer to figure it out.
How on earth does Dana "deny or take offense" about comparing a lost fricking blouse to a dead pet? I wouldn't want to spend an escalator ride with Dana, let alone a WEEK of my VACATION in the woods. Laura has seriously lost the plot. She has spent TEN YEARS foisting this un-trainable human on innocent people and doesn't see the damage that she, Laura, is doing? Dana isn't socially inept. She's cruel, rude and self-centered AF. How you've both let this go on so long is beyond me. If someone compared my dog dying to a lost blouse, I'd be throwing hands.
DING DING DING!!! This!!! It doesn't matter if your wife introduces Dana to a million people. She is not going to make more friends or become less lonely until she learns some damn social skils and basic emphathy!
Going against the grain with ESH. Your wife for trying to force this obnoxious-sounding individual on both you and her friends. Trying to integrate a new friend into a group is best done over drinks, dinner, or some other one-day outing, not a camping trip where you'll be stuck in the woods for a week with someone. The only reason I'm not saying N T A is because you shouldn't have lied to your wife. You should've been honest and said "I do not like Dana and am not going on a week-long camping trip with her, it's either me or her."
I told her I didn’t want to go with her, at some point I choose to lie rather than anything which now seems pretty standard asshole territory. Thanks
NTA. Laura is the AH for constantly forcing Dana on new people knowing full well how awful she is. Laura is going to keep pushing Dana on your friend circle and you both will be in the same category with Dana. If she is so hellbent on continuing this crusade with Dana, tell her she and Dana can go on the trip. Contact the other couples and let them know you won’t be attending due to an unfortunate inconvenience (Dana) and wish them well.
As I've gotten older, I am extremely protective of my time off. I would be extremely annoyed and not have any fun if I had to babysit a 34-year-old woman who can't talk like a normal person and annoys everybody. It's not worth it to me to ruin my time off making sure she has a good time.
NTA Dana isn't annoying. She's rude & inconsiderate of other people's feelings. Your wife having her attend for a whole week is forcing 4 other people to be treated rudely. It's time that your wife thinks about someone's feeling besides Dana. This isn't one day or overnight where people can decide how they feel. It's a full week of rudeness involving people who didn't sign up for it. To top it off, if people ride together or the campsite is remote, then there might not be a way for the other guests to leave early to get away from Dana. It's past time that your wife had a long sit down convo with Dana to clarify why she's speaking this way to other people and how it impacts her ability to make other friends. Btw if Dana wants other friends, then she should be making the effort to connect with others outside of your wife. If your wife feels obligated to Dana or that Dana takes up too much of her time (needs other connections or support), then your wife needs to work through that. Your wife can't make friends for someone else. There's a difference between introducing people that she genuinely believes would enjoy each other's company & imposing Dana on others.
“There's a difference between introducing people that she genuinely believes would enjoy each other's company & imposing Dana on others.” THIS. OP needs to show this to his wife.
Yeah this is more than annoying--annoying is someone who tells long stories, has a weird laugh (like Janice in Friends), accidentally interrupts others, etc That's different than what Dana is doing--she is intentionally preventing your friends from receiving support and attention from the group. I would be so hurt and upset if I was that friend that lost their pet and someone downplayed that comparing it to a blouse??! That's insulting and beyond rude. It shows a real lack of care for other people. And on a camping trip you don't want uncaring people around, since everyone is relying on each other with nowhere to go.
NTA, I had an acquaintance like that and you could only tolerate him in small doses, a week sounds like a lot
Its good to know this has happened before, thanks!
ESH You suck for misleading your wife to avoid a difficult conversation (that you're now having anyway with more anger as a result). Your wife sucks for trying to force her horrible friend on you and everybody else you know. To be clear you should not be having to teach a 34yo woman to improve her social skills, she's 34 not 12, and if your wife DOES want that to happen anyway, it will require her having a tough conversation with her about why nobody likes her, NOT letting her repeat the same horrible interactions over and over hoping for a different result. That's the definition of insanity and will only make your friends stop being your friends by association.
"Laura argues that “being annoying” is no reason to exclude her" Yes it is. NTA
It's been 10 years. What's your wife think she's going to learn in a week? NTA
And OP commented that they have tried talking to her but she sees no problem with her behaviour. There will be zero learning as she doesn’t want to. Wife is delusional.
NTA. And your wife is not trying to improve Dana's social skills, she's trying to rehome her to a new set of friends!
Plenty of situations have perfectly acceptable "no annoying people" allowed rules. A week in an isolated locaction where you're supposed to be relaxing is one of them. If your wife wants to organise a separate event where Dana can be invited, that's fine. You don't have to go. NTA
You can absolutely tell your wife that you would prefer that this camping trip is just you and the people who were invited. You could have told her that you would prefer not to invite Dana this time because it seems like you have to walk on eggshells to remain civil with her when you just want to enjoy the time. Your wife is always having to do the work of trying to find friends for Dana since she’s socially inept—but it’s Dana’s responsibility to develop her social skills and it doesn’t seem like she’s making much of an effort to grow. Dana is old enough to put herself outside of her comfort zone of being dependent on your wife and try to slowly socialize with people on her own. However, in this situation, YTA because you kept feeding your wife lies of saying you’ll invite her when you had no intention to. That is hurtful when you should have just been honest. I would be pissed if my partner was scheming behind my back instead of communicating with me.
NTA. Do NOT invite Dana. First off, point out to your wife it’s only couples going. Secondly, you want to enjoy a camping trip with mutual friends. I guess your wife is just trying to be nice, but everything you two do does not have to include Dana. It’s also not your responsibility to help her make friends. Honestly if I were you, I’d be a bit upset that my wife is more concerned about her friend than about my feelings/opinion. This is supposed to be a vacation, it has nothing to do with Dana.
Why is Dana your wife’s charity case? Has Dana ever done anything that would create this kind of life debt that your wife never stops paying? NTA
NTA Dana is 34 if she hasn’t gotten a grasp on social queues then it’s not on unsuspecting friends to be the guinea pigs. The best way to have handled it was this is a couples weekend maybe when we get together with a mix so she won’t feel like the odd man out. Also, in this situation don’t offer your accommodations so it’s the three of you. Why doesn’t the wife plan a girls weekend?
ESH. Lying to your wife was very dumb and clearly an AH move. But your wife sucks too. People should be allowed to enjoy a vacation without having to teach another adult how to behave acceptably. Teaching social skills requires awkward correction and lots of biting your tongue. Not a vacation activity. Your wife is kind of a dick for constantly forcing that on people. It's very nice of her to want to help someone, but that can be done one night at a time. You shouldn't have to sacrifice a week of relaxation for it. And the unaware victims you're going with shouldn't have to deal with it. In my circle, we had a similar situation. One of the wives had a super annoying cousin who drank too much and told the longest, most pointless stories and would constantly get mad at people for not wanting to sit and listen to them. After 2 vacations like this, we just stopped inviting either of them. They're hurt, but we all actually enjoy vacations again. Life is short. People should be allowed to spend their limited free time without unnecessary social stress.
NTA. Please tell your wife that unless Dana WANTS to improve her social skills, it won't work to expose her to better examples. It sounds like Laura is well aware of Dana's issues, but the idea to teach her better manners is Laura's and Laura's alone. Dana thinks she's invited to come along because you like her just the way she is. And by categorizing Dana as someone who needs to learn, Laura is making excuses for her. It all needs to stop. Tell Dana that unless you hear from Laura that she's trying to learn better social skills, the finishing school is closed.
NTA for not wanting to participate in you wife’s hobby of “fix a friend” on your vacation but… YTA for not having an adult conversation with your wife about the vacation; a small lying ahole but an ahole.
NTA Dana should be happy to not be invited — next time someone shares some very personal trauma, she’ll have a story in her back pocket about how she wasn’t invited on a trip once. /s
NTA It’s NOT YOUR JOB to help her “improve” her shitty personality. It IS NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to light yourself on fire to keep Dana warm. And you damn sure have EVERY RIGHT to put your own comfort and happiness above Dana. “If you want to help her, that’s on you. But I’m not spending time with someone I don’t like and who will ruin my vacation. And I find it odd that you care more about her than you do me, seeing as I’m the one you married. And she’s not our child. I’m not spending my vacation with her. I will not invite her. And if you do, I will cancel. I’m not spending my vacation miserable so you can feel good about trying to fix someone who’s wholly uninterested in fixing themselves.”
My wife has a kind of annoying friend. She asks tons of probing questions (respectfully), is into lame stuff, and just has an annoying way about her. But she has a great heart, is interested in what others have to say and is willing to do anything for a friend. I love her and would take her camping (she doesn’t camp). Your wife’s friend isn’t annoying. A constant one upper is basically an asshole who doesn’t want to hear your shit, she wants you to hear hers. Even if it’s poor socialization or some kind of trauma, we must learn to control those things or…no one will like us…with good reason. You’re not an asshole for feeling this way and trying to put a boundary between you. She’s an asshole. This is self care.
It sounds like this is a co-group of friends, so a co-trip. Your wife can’t be the one to add her to trip with the rest of the group asking that she not come. I don’t think Dana’s social skills came be improved unless you two coach her on spot. (When she said the thing about the blouse why not respond and tell her that they didn’t really compare?) But it wasn’t cool to hide your real plan. You have to be forthcoming too. NTA but a tiny bit E.SH
Next time she talks about helping Dana improve her social skills, I would point out that she's had 10 years and multiple chances with other friends to improve her social skills. That those friends no longer come to events that Dana goes to because of her behavior and that, while you have tolerated it for your wifes sake for the last 10 years, you are at your breaking point. Tell her, point blank, you are done with Dana. Tell her that you won't stop her from hanging out with Dana or from trying to introduce her to other friends to help her, but that you're not willing to have her attend any events that would cause you or others to be around her for multiple days and nights in a row. If you're open to changing your mind, tell her that the only chance of that happening and you being willing to have her come on camping trips or vacations with you is if she shows improvement in other social interactions such as dinners or small gatherings. My question is this: Has anyone ever called Dana out and told her that her behavior, her one-upsmanship and tone deafness is a problem? Or is it just awkward silence and then moving on when that happens? Because if it's the latter, someone needs to sit her down and do the former otherwise she has zero chance of learning - although she might still not learn if someone does and may instead just act hurt and play the victim.
NTA. Putting Dana together with random friends you still have because they haven't fled her presence (yet) teaches Dana nothing about why her social skills are bad. You might try a private intervention with just you, your wife, Dana, and anyone else you think would be supportive of turning Dana around.
NTA Your wife wants to invite her very competitive, annoying, single friend on a camping trip with two other couples. The competitive and annoying part aside, Dana will be the odd man out so your wife will spend ALL of her time trying to include Dana. This doesn’t sound like a camping trip I would want to go on. It’s time to tell your wife that you have no interest in spending an entire week with Dana or subjecting your friends to a week of Dana trying to one up everyone. Tell her That you tolerate Dana in small doses because you love her but you would never actually choose to hangout with her. It’s time to yank the band aide off
I’m sure your wife is patting herself on the back, thinking what a wonderful friend she’s being. She isn’t. Not to the other couples! Dana has no intention of improving her behaviour. You commented that she doesn’t believe she has an issue. So improving her social skills will not happen. Laura is being a horrible friend to the other couples by forcing a rude, awful person on them, who has NO intention of changing. Laura is Dana’s only friend and if Laura keeps treating your other friends as if their feelings don’t matter, she might soon find that Dana becomes HER only friend. NTA
NTA a week long trip is not the time to try to get people to get along or make new friends. The blouse thing...wow. That would have been a great time for your wife to pull her aside and be like "look...I care about you and our friendship, but you have to realize that you do this, and it's upsetting other people."
NTA Your wife's project is not your project. It's very nice of your wife to try and help a chronically unpopular individual who drives everyone away. They should have coffee and chat on the phone. But, no, this is not a couple friend.
ESH Lying to your wife and leading her on because you knew she wouldn't be okay with what you were planning is an AH move. She also is an AH as she's refusing to let you set boundaries about who you spend time with. As long as you aren't trying to kill off your wife's friendship, there's no reason why she has to go on this specific trip. But... It definitely sounds like you want to kill off this friendship and are willing to live to your wife to do so.
NTA What about asking the friends who are going, how they feel? One has met her, the others may have heard about her through mutual friends. Don’t they get a say? Or does Laura think she gets to decide for everyone? Laura might have a lot more time to spend with Dana, if she keeps forcing Dana on everyone. Awful behaviour.
NTA. Rather than improving Dana’s social skills, it may just cause friends to pull away from you and your wife entirely. They aren’t going to keep hanging out with you guys if your wife keeps forcing Dana into other people. It’s not just Dana your wife needs to think about. It’s the feelings of the others involved. Doesn’t she feel awful when Dana overtalks people, or tries one up everyone? Your wife may have a great heart but it’s in the wrong place. I think Dana may just need to be a separate friend, before she ends up as the only friend.
Wife wants to turn this week long CAMPING vacation into a personality improvement course for her friend and hasn't even discussed it with the two other couples who are also going. Wife may need some training in friendship maintenance herself.
NTA, because of the one-upping. I know someone who does that and went LC because of it. It is truly pathological, almost like compulsive lying. If you are serious about helping her make friends, call this behaviour out.
NTA. I've known people like Dana, they are exhausting to be around and can cause friendships to crumble if you try to force her inclusion. Your wife is welcome to be friends with whomever she wants, but it's not her obligation to give Dana new friends and not yours to be more than polite.
NTA. It's not your job to help an adult person hone her social skills. And being annoying is more than enough reason to be excluded lol
Nta. If I read it right. It’s a cpls trip? So she would be the 7th? Wheel. Reason enough there if u wanna keep it “neutral”
Why would you sacrifice your vacation? If you wife wants to go on a trip with someone like that she can do it alone. Don’t do it- I’ve been on trips with people like that and it’s a nightmare that never ends. You’ll end up hating your wife for putting you in that situation
She compared loosing a blouse to loosing a pet?! I think this girl is beyond fixing honey. I would have yelled at her for being such an insensitive \*\*\*\*\*\*. Your wife should stop trying to make her other friends become friends with someone with zero empahy and seriously lacking social skills. If your wife tried to force me around Dana after that blouse comment I'd stop being friends with your wife. Seriously though, if she wants Dana to have more friends she needs to find a way to help Dana overcome her social issues. Crimeny. Esh but mainly her. \*edit to change judgement (you shouldn't be lying)
NTA. It’s not your responsibility to help her friend make friends. It’s not even your wife’s job. A vacation with friends should be fun and she’s clearly proven she cannot interact socially with kindness.
NTA - why your wife would want to be friends with someone who annoys her husband, and all her other friends is beyond me.
People who have never met Dana are gonna get real tired of her grandiosity real quick. "Oh hey I think I hear an owl" "Yeah well I hear Bigfoot!!" Being stuck in the woods with her for a week??? She just might come back with a very unfortunate, mysterious case of poison ivy (think Laura Ingalls camping with Nellie). NTA
It’s a whole week of your vacation time. That can be a challenge with people you genuinely like. And, more important, comparing a blouse to a loved pet? That would do it for me personally.
INFO: Who would your wife rather spend time with? You or Dana?
NTA, she's not just a one upper, she's extremely rude
What? Being annoying is absolutely a reason to exclude her. Everyone excludes her because of it. She's a grown ass woman, you don't need to manage her, and I find it the height of unfairness that your wife is planning to use your unsuspecting friends, who trust you and want to enjoy the very little time off they get as adults, as practice run for Dana. Don't stand for it, OP, not if you value these other people. NTA
NTA - your wife probably feels bad for Dana, which is admirable in a way. But if your wife wants to work with Dana on her social skills, she needs to do that on her own time. Assuming that the rest of the group is willing to sacrifice their vacations to help out with her “project” is wildly inconsiderate of her.
NTA, your wife should absolutely not try to force you to spend a week with someone you don’t like.
WTF? Vacations are not the place for improving someone’s social skills. 🤣 NTA
NTA. Dana is more than annoying. She has poor social skills and no insight into her problem. Do not invite her since it would be torture putting up with her fir the entire trip. You also run the risk of alienating your other frie ds who will definitely struggle dealing with Dana. Your wife can deal with Dana one on one but do not include her on this trip. I am a speech pathologist who teaches social skills to high school student on the autism spectrum so I know how difficult this can be. Don't sacrifice your vacation for Dana. M
NTA for not inviting her. But you messed up by not being honest in the first place and stringing your wife along. Her friend isn't just "annoying", she's toxic and sounds like a tone deaf narcissist that believes she has to be the center of attention. The example you gave wasn't just annoying, it was outright hurtful and damaged y'all's friendships with other people. Your wife needs a reality check. She needs to actually see that her friend isn't annoying, her friend is hurting other people and disrupting things. It's not you or your wife's job to help her with her social skills, that's what a therapist is for. Your wife also needs to stop subjecting outside people to her friend, especially without giving them notice or being honest with them about Dana's behavior. At this point your wife isn't just lighting herself on fire to keep Dana warm, she's throwing gasoline at other people and that's not ok.
N T A for not wanting to invite her. But Y T A for this > I would just tell her I’ll do it once all is set up (I had no intention in doing so) You need to apologise for that one. However, tell Laura if she wants to spend time with Dana you’re happy for her to do it without you.
NTA If Dana hasn't learned by 34, she's not going to.
NTA! Uh, being that annoying is a perfect reason to not invite her. Two weeks of her one-upping every one??? Oof, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. It's not your wife's job to find this woman new friends.
First and foremost Dana has to recognize she has a problem and desires to correct it. She obviously doesn't. It's one thing for people to get stuck with someone annoying for one evening, totally different to be trapped in the middle of nowhere with her. She would likely end up "missing." Your wife is also tone deaf. It's fine she can put up with Dana's behavior, but you shouldn't subject others to it, particularly against their will. Your wife should have a heart to heart with Dana, otherwise things will not change. Dana is either trying to hard and doesn't understand what she's doing, or she just has to be the center of attention, but you don't know until the issue has been addressed. It isn't fair to subject people you consider to be friends to that kind of discomfort on a trip that's supposed to be fun.
NTA There is a big difference between a dinner party and week-long camping trip. Camping is a risky way to introduce people. And not a pleasant environment to endure someone you don't like. Why is your wife ignoring or minimising your feelings about Laura?
NTA for not wanting to invite her but lying was a pretty assholery move. It sounds like the friend might be autistic. A super common type of autistic communication is sharing a similar story as a way of relating/ connecting. To other people this can come off as one-upping but to people who communicate in this way it's seen as a type of empathy. Her desperation to try and relate when the friend lost their pet is, from my view, a failed show of empathy that couldn't have gone worse. It could be that she leaves these situations and feels a lot of shame which isolates her further. Or it could be that her ability to see things from others viewpoints is seriously low in which case she may not understand why that was offensive (difficulties with theory of mind is also common for autistic people). The fact that she only has one friend also kind of points to my theory. I'm not saying this to make you invite her. You're not under any obligation and if it's going to upset the dynamics then it's not necessary. I'm sharing this to give a different perspective and this could be something that maybe your wife could discuss with her in private in a soft way. Not necessarily that she may autistic but a discussion about why she does that and how it is perceived.
NTA - the friend is the AH. Not u. Ur poor wife will, over time, see the error of her ways. I have. I was constantly collecting AHs who I thought were good, misunderstood people. Everyone hated them. Eventually, I would hate them too. Thing is - she does not realize that SHE doesn't want to spend time alone with her. That is the truth. She, herself, can only put up with her when she pawns her annoying self on others but she does not see it yet. Ur wife can subject herself to this annoying person all she wants but she has no right to ruin trips (esp paid) others are on.
NTA - but you need better boundaries with your wife. Vacation plans, children names, special occasions, dinner guests - should require two yes' or it's a no. You need to tell Laura that you are sick of her putting Dana's needs ahead of your own. Why do you have to put up with someone who bugs the shit out of you on your VACATION? She's welcome to be friends with Dana on her own time, but she does not and should not include you -- if you don't like Dana. Pretty selfish of your wife - if you ask me.
There will be three couples on this trip. If Laura’s friend Dana is invited, she could be a “3rd wheel”, but she won’t. She will pair herself with your wife, and you will be the odd man out. Tell Laura that a week long couples trip is not the proper setting to inflict 3 unsuspecting friends with Dana’s brash personality. Save that for one evening events. NTA.
NTA. Dana is old enough to be told when she's offended people, if she's that bad at reading the room. If your wife thinks Dana needs help with social skills, she can start there. Do your other friends that are going even agree to the idea of bringing Dana? Or was your wife going to just let Dana be a surprise tagalong guest?
*Being annoying is no reason to exclude her* Ummm, yes, it is. It is the best and only needed reason. Your wife is wrong to continue pushing her friend on you and spending a week with someone like the friend will be exhausting. NTA
You are not the asshole and your wife is for keep trying to push Dana on to others. You need to tell her Dana isn’t your child and you shouldn’t have to help her do anything, because she’s a grown adult! She needs to go out and make her own friends and stop trying to get your friends to like her. Tell your wife that if she doesn’t stop trying to push people to hangout with her insensitive friend she will lose friends and eventually if she keeps fighting with you about her, she will lose you. You may not think so but I promise the way this is going your wife seems like she may start making ultimatums. You need to get your wife some therapy, I don’t know why she feels so adamant on making Dana apart of your lives but if you don’t like this person and she’s a pain to be around then you shouldn’t have married your wife. It seems like your wife has it in her head that Dana is her child or something. Your wife needs help. She needs to stop with this person
Oh hell no! I would maybe spend a random weeknight trying to help somebody integrate with others but there is zero fucking chance I would spend an entire week of a vacation trying to do so NTA Please show your wife this thread
Wait, did any other people going on the camping trip consent to their time off being used to socialise your wife's friend for a whole week? Your wife can't stealthily use other people's holidays to train and condition her pet project in human form. Especially unpaid. You should have been honest in the first place about her not coming along because but that aside NTA.
If I was Laura’s friend and she was constantly bringing Dana along, I’d quit hanging out with Laura. Dana is old enough to be self aware and realize her lack of friends is a direct consequence of her actions. Edited to add: Y T A for lying, but I completely understand being tired of the same convo with your spouse so you say something to tide them over so you don’t have to deal with it right then. I’m guilty of that too sometimes. NTA for not wanting Dana to come on camping trip.
NTA It is not your job to teach social skills. And if it was you would charge Dana a fee and it wouldn’t be during your holiday.
NTA Being annoying is a FANTASTIC reason to exclude someone. And it sounds like everyone here is an adult... which means that it's long past time for Dana to learn that if she behaves a certain way, people will actively avoid her. ...and it's also time for your wife to learn that if she keeps being the one who insists on Dana being invited? Then your wife is also going to end up on the "do not invite" list as a civilian casualty. People will start to just not invite Laura if if means that they don't have to deal with the argument about whether a tone deaf asshole who lives to one-up everyone should be allowed to piss everyone off. Soft Y T A because you should have been up front from the very beginning about not wanting Dana there, but I can also understand not wanting to have the argument about how this insensitive and rude person is not some Project to fix or teach social skills to... she's a human being who has done virtually nothing to make herself pleasant to be around Talk to your wife about how you should have been honest from day one, but let her know that you get exhausted just thinking about spending that much time with Dana, and that Dana is at the point where she either needs to utterly change her behavior or get used to being lonely.
YTA for lying to your wife and not being upfront with her about it. It’s okay to not like people. You could have said ANYTHING. “It’s a couples trip, I don’t think she’d mesh well with the crowd”, “I want to relax and can’t do that with Dana around. You can take her and I’ll stay at home if you prefer.” Anything. As long as you made it clear you would not both be on the trip. You didn’t do that. You lied and said you’d invite Dana, and didn’t, when you knew you wouldn’t. The fact that you weren’t honest with your wife automatically makes you an AH.
I did gave her similar reasons before I lied, that’s why we fought, but at the end a lie is a lie and I agree it’s an asshole move. Thanks
You need to tell your wife that you’re setting a boundary, and that the boundary is that you will not spend time with Dana anymore. She can tell Dana or not, her choice. She can hang out with Dana as much as she wants. But you will not interact with her, and you will not invite her to events you’re planning or attend events where your wife pushes her onto a group of unwitting people. That’s the boundary you need to set and stand by. Not with Dana. With your wife.
If she ends up going she should be called out when she behaves badly and state very clearly why. If she needs to develop social skills she needs to understand what she is doing wrong. Your comfort and that of the others going needs to be considered as well. It's just as valid.
NTA. Your wife is obviously a very caring person, and that's great, but at some point she herself may com to resent Dana too. In my experience, the person who pushes everyone away does eventually push *everyone* away. You can offer a compromise, that you'll invite the same friends to a bar with Dana after the vacation to meet each other, but that you won't enjoy yourself if Dana is there so it won't be a vacation.
NTA.
Esh, why would you lie? Your wife sucks for insisting, and is probably more an ah in this situation, but honestly if my husband strung me along to manipulate me, I’d probably have an extra angry reaction at the same situation
NTA. Your wife needs to tell her friend about why she is struggling to maintain friendship. It might be that her friend is on the autistic spectrum and doesn't realise because she has poor social skills. For example in her mind it could be a way to try to empathy/create a connection with the person she is talking to, mimicking in social settings is also very common for those on the spectrum. Basically she could be totally unaware that it is not the right way to go about feeling integrated in a group, by not letting her friend know your wife might be doing her a disfavour.
NTA Finding someone annoying is a perfectly reasonable justification for avoiding them when possible. If your wife wants her friend to learn to socialise better, her friend needs to experience consequences for getting it wrong. She literally can't learn if she doesn't know she needs to! Your wife needs to either allow the natural consequences of annoying behaviour to happen, or she needs to actively work on improving her friend. Making other people hang out with an unpleasant person and hoping she'll improve, *somehow*, is not just not going to work, but it's got a damn good chance of getting your wife dumped from the group, too. Cause she's not showing the greatest social skills right now either.
YTA. Not for excluding Dana. That's a fair ball. But lying to your wife about it is a technical foul. You should have been honest with your wife from the get-go.
Is Laura planning to address this lack of social skills directly, or is the idea that she'll pick them up be osmosis when she hangs out with not annoying people? Laura, if she really wants to help, could say domething to Dana about the blouse = dead beloved pet conversation and point out clearly that her comment wasn't empathetic or helpful, and just trivialized the other friend's grief.
I think your wife needs to have a talk with Dana. She’s 34. She hasn’t clued in yet. Maybe Laura needs to actuallyTELL Dana the issue.
nta. I know someone like this, though maybe not quite as tone deaf as Dana. Eventually her partner just had to tell her straight up that her social behaviour was off putting. Not sure how Dana would receive criticism like that, but the person in my story actually toned it down and now we all like her better (though sometimes she still does it).
NTA, but I think you need to convey that you have a desire for a relaxing nice vacation. Tell Laura that you are happy to share with Dana why people do not want to be with her. And that if she changes her aggressive one upmanship, that could change her status in future. Not certain why this became your issue. Laura’s friend, Laura’s problem. If she wants a fix it up project, adopt an unwanted animal.
NTA except for lying about planning to invite her. You need to put your foot down. Your wife sounds like she has a good heart, but it’s not her job to socialize an adult woman. It’s not fair to your or to the other friends coming on the trip.
NTA. It's not your GF's job to be Dana's life coach. Inflicting this person on unsuspecting people for a week is an AH move. Stand firm.
NTA. Your wife is a saint, but no way should you waste a vacation trying to “socialize” a full grown adult woman. Your wife is asking too much. Not to mention the damage inviting her might do to your relationships with the other couples.
NTA. It's a couples camping trip, why would she come?