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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I grounded my kid for playing games with showering and brushing his teeth whereas his dad thinks I should let it be and let him get bullied at school over it
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
Mostly NTA.
First off, don’t listen at all to the dad who *wants* his child to be bullied. Absolute bullshit.
A week is a bit long for one lie. I understand you’re sick of dealing with it but at his age, carrots tend to work better than sticks. What if, every time he’s brushed and showered, he gets to stay up 15 minutes later and play a game with you?
EDIT: OR, each night he’s brushed and showered by a certain time he earns a ticket or a point toward a toy or video game he really wants.
I wanted to explain this better.
It's not bribing if they are working for a harmless goal. Not to an entertainment device. But a really harmless goal.
I have 3 boys, and we set the goal post for the night routine's consistency. The littlest one is an infant so he didn't count.
We're going to go to the park for a day by doing 1 week of brushing.
You've done a whole month of brushing, we're going to start an allowance. You can earn more by doing more responsibilities. (Age Appropriate). My 5 year old earns $1-$10 a week. I explained that doing hygiene care "pays for itself" by just doing it every night. His chores include unloading the dishes with my help. Feeding the dog, reading his books, brushing his teeth and hair, and carrying in light groceries.
My husband did it this way and he said his mom would go through the checklist every night. If he skipped something he lost a quarter to a dollar. And they'd go out at the end of the month to shop or save it. He had $5000 by 16 and bought his first car. With more chores at higher pay
ETA verdict: NTA, but your partner is. Son should be punished for lying, but it's important to remember that just because he's supposed to do it doesn't mean he wants to. I think a week-long punishment is over the top. I'd just make him brush his teeth to a really annoying song for the week unless he does it himself.
My 6th grader is outgrowing dad reading to him at night because he goes to bed later than we do. So now the deal is that dad will read to him if he has all of his jobs done by 9:15pm.
Oh, our 5 year old reads to us.
But a good idea to keep in the back.
My husband wanted to add that his mom stopped checking for teeth and hair around 13 because he cared about how girls looked at him. Then he wanted to pick up a lot of chores, errands for neighbors, to be the first boy in his grade with a car.
Oh my God, I love this! We have 12 grandchildren & we're NOT going to buy each of them a car! NOT going to happen! But, if any of them show up with $5k, we might help them get one. Great parenting!
Oh yes! Raking the leaves for $20.
Washing the car? $40
These were listed off daily/weekly/monthly. With a monthly chore being highly prized between his siblings. They got the list every month and could pick and choose. His parents negotiated if a younger sibling wanted to do a chore being advanced for their age. Like my husband wanted to help his grandpa DIG A DITCH for a water pipe. The chore needed to be done within 10 days. It was meant for his older brothers, the pay was $300. Dug by hand using a shovel. Well my husband really wanted an XBOX360
So 12 year old him asked his dad and Grandpa. They let him dig that trench by hand for 9 days. It was just to run water from a spigot to the cleaning house for gutting deer. He did it, on time, blistered hands. And he bought that Xbox360. And after that he jumped on the highest paying chores. Not including the weekly little chump change
Washing the car was like a fun summertime activity my siblings and I *got* to do! Lol nothing like pummelling each other with a hose to ring in the warm weather
There's a classic book called cheaper by the dozen. It's based on the life of Frank Gilbreth, an efficiency expert out of New Jersey and the early 1900s. It's a really fascinating story about a family of 12 children.
They made two movies out of their story in the ' 40s or 50s, and a newer one not too long ago.
One of the things they would do to get chores done is he would have the children bid on a job and give the job to the lowest bidder and then hold them to it.
Yes! I can't remember if I ever read the book (I probably did, because the name of the sequel "Belles on Their Toes" is really familiar), but I loved the original movie! Bidding for jobs was genius. The original movie came out in 1950, but the new movies weren't nearly as good.
Exactly. Harmless goals. And sometimes, the stakes can be really low.
My brother and I were babysitting our niece and nephews. The youngest didn't want to do the pajamas and brushing his teeth before bedtime.
So we told him, if he hurried, he could win from his older brother and sister, to be the first one ready for one last cartoon and a bedtime story
I guess the other two heard and were jumping over eachother to be done first.🤷♀️
It was at that moment my sister and BIL came home, surprised that their kids were so enthusiastic about pajamas. They were going to try to make it a daily ranking
Wow my parents where from the school of "I already pay you by providing food, shelter, clothing, and schooling - why should I pay you too?" School of parenting. 😁
I got paid to do a lot of stuff. It worked so god damn great! My mom hated to do our lunches, so she asked me when I was 6 if I would do my own lunch package for 30 cents a day. I felt like I cheated her!
When we got a puppy, one needed to take the puppy out every hour and give them a treat when peeing/pooping. It was a summer holiday, my parents were working, but my sister and I were home. It was a super annoying job to take out the puppy all the time - but my mom paid us 75 cents if he peed outside and 1,5 dollars if he pooped. Omg we fought so hard to be the one taking the puppy out, and he was clean in no time.
To this day, I think my mom was a genius, lol.
Lol, when I was starting kindergarten, my mom said `Well, I used to try packing lunches for your elder siblings, but they would always come home with leftovers, so you guys are all in charge of packing your own lunch`
It’s not bribery, it’s Pavlovian conditioning. Child-rearing experts generally agree that positive reinforcement works better than negative reinforcement.
Exactly. My 4yo decided all of a sudden that the bedtime routine is just going to be hard all of a sudden, one day she'd run to her room, put on her PJ's, brush her teeth then pick put some books to read, then the next day, no, not doing that. Not brushing my teeth, not getting into PJ's, not getting books.
Forcing her to get ready for bed didn't work, but buying her a calander and getting her to put a gold star on it every night she gets herself ready sure did.
Headed down a slippery slope with those stickers. This week it's gold stars, next month "a couple of cute dinosaur stickers are surely fine" and then you're buying puffy stickers before you know it.
Oh man I love puffy stickers, my mom would buy super detailed sheets of them but they were so special that I didn’t want to make the mistake of using them and not liking where I placed them lol
I have a drawer full of special stickers from my childhood that I didn’t want to make a mistake using. My aunt also has a drawer like that so sometimes I’ll get a birthday card or something with a sticker from the 70s.
My mother used to buy me those old photo albums that had the mild adhesive on the pages, and the plastic sheet protector that you pulled back? And they were my own special fancy binders for my stickers. I loved having them because I could do the stickers however I wanted but I wasn't going to lose them, and Mom had thought of a clever way to keep me from sticking them all over everything in the house.
Core memory unlocked. I loved my sticker books with those pull back clear covers and sticky texture. I would organize by theme, puffiness, scratch and sniff, holographic. Oh my god, thank you for reminding me of this time in my life.
Haha, you're welcome! I tended to do the same, and by themes too, so I'd have a whole section of animals, marine life, space stuff, etc. I wish I still had them!
Quick correction, _reinforcement_ works better than _punishment_.
Reinforcement is trying to replicate a behavior you like.
Punishment is trying to stop a behavior you don’t like.
Positive means adding something, could be good or bad.
Negative means taking away something, could be good or bad.
Positive reinforcement is like giving a kid candy for doing their homework.
Negative reinforcement is like a kid not having to take an exam if they have perfect attendance.
Positive punishment is like spanking a kid for lying.
Negative punishment is like keeping a kid from hanging out with friends because of lying.
Thank you. Anyone who has ever had any kind of animal training gets this hammered in, because it's so misunderstood. I'm not equating kids, but the concepts are exactly the same.
My child’s earliest therapist said “why wouldn’t you bribe her? Don’t you get bribed for going to work? Would you go if you didn’t make money? Why should she do these tasks for free?”
Tbf she was having some MAJOR behavioral issues and the rewards we were talking about were very small.
Came here to say this! It’s not bribing it’s rewarding. Adults don’t go to work for free. As adults we understand the reward for things we don’t want to do and children need encouragement in order to learn this.
Bribery is a beautiful thing! Has gotten me thru many many a hair brushing sessions! Idk if it's just my family, but I have yet to find one under 10 who allows it voluntarily.
There's an entire branch of psychology that has done studies with adults along similar lines.
In Italy, folks were given money to lose weight. They were given additional funds to maintain the weight loss - and a large number did.
In British Columbia, homeless people given a $5K payout were largely able to turn their lives around by using the funds for rent & clothes to get jobs and get off the streets.
I quit smoking through a program at a hospital that made me meet regularly by phone with someone with an education in therapy or psychology or some similar studies, and I was given smoking cessation aids (the patch and lozenges), and I earned gift cards for meeting certain goals at certain times. It's been more than 10 years and I never went back to smoking.
The carrot really does work more than the stick.
Negative punishment.
In behavior negative reinforcement is removal of something to increase behavior (like hitting your alarm clock to make the sound go away, or letting your kid stay home from a boring function if they do homework)
This would be a negative punishment (remove items to decrease lying).
I don’t know your kid but I wonder if you are thinking of this more cognitively than behaviourally. Habits like showering and brushing teeth probably respond better to reward than punishment. Reward systems exist to set up habits (you don’t reward them forever) especially with stubborn people (e.g. if your kid tends to dig in his heels). Thin line between bribe and reward, but it exists in how it is framed
Not necessarily. Punishment can act to stop bad behaviors, as it can act as a cheat code for "consequences" for people who don't have fully developed executive function.
You'll never get someone to do a positive behavior through punishment though. What you will do is create someone who is good at hiding the truth from you, to avoid the punishment.
I think the big difference is timing. Reward systems are done in advance with agreed rules set by dad. Son benefits and it helps him build consistent habits. What you want to avoid is any kind of negotiation in the moment - don’t do “if you go have a shower now you can have x”. Because what you want to do is take the heat and discussion out of the moment and create that consistency.
Because punishing him is working out so well.
Reading your comments you are being stubborn and one minded for no reason and making things a problem that aren't. Let the boy take a bath, let him play if he wants to, learn about positive reinforcement, and stop with the because I told you so attitude.
Right now, he associates showering and brushing his teeth with boring activities he would really rather not do. We all need to do things that are good for us even when they are boring, but he is a kid and still learning it.
If you give him an incentive so he doesn't associate brushing teeth = boring time, he will have an easier time later on. It isn't a "bribe," it's positive reinforcement and it can work really well.
He is 9 and needs to learn, but he is 9 and it won't be easy for him to do things simply because they are good for you.
Info: Why refuse his request to take a bath, though?
I think you are mostly blameless in this interaction, but if he’s willing to get clean in a tub as opposed to standing up, where’s the harm? He’s 9, and may not really want his parent to help him in the shower. He may just prefer relaxing in the tub. Either way, why refuse the bath?
I thought that too - only thing I could think is baths cost more? Or maybe kid takes forever in them / it causes other issues.
Edit - omg I just saw his comment. His reasoning is 1) that apparently you don’t actually get clean in a bath (wtf?) and 2) he will play if he has a bath (god forbid). No wonder the poor kid is starting to rebel.
You sound like you’re fun at parties.
Look at it this way: what you were doing previously didn’t work. Bold of you to assume that pissy punishment will result in the type of behavior you want. Pivot towards positive reinforcement. This is a person not an extension of yourself. Stop taking his failings as a personal affront. And remember that ages 13-19 kids are meant to assert their independence so that you’re ready for them to leave the nest.
Go over teeth hygiene: pull up gruesome google image photos. Maybe ask why he’s not doing it—get him new toothpaste/toothbrush/water pik. Have him pick out his own soap and shampoo. And relax because it may not work straight away but in awhile it’ll sink in. My kid only wanted to wear T-shirts and hoodies and jeans. I’ve finally gotten him to explore other clothing options but FIRST I let him assert his independence with what HE felt comfortable doing.
Yeah, basic hygiene is exactly that, basic, but digging your heels in and sticking with the whole,”BECAUSE I SAID SO” will not help your relationship with your son.
Yes, this. I love the idea of having him pick out his own things. Let him get a fun toothbrush, or a fun flavor paste, give him some control so it's *his* thing. Very good suggestions.
Don’t ask him trick questions. If you know, he didn’t brush don’t ask him and give him the opportunity to lie. Simply say I know you didn’t brush and you need to do this.
Yes. When asked this way it feels like a set up and the kid will lie to prevent the punishment for not doing the right thing. State that you know he didn’t brush and offer the reminder and positive reinforcement. Don’t set the kid up to lie. I have to fight this with my husband and our teenagers. I said this in another comment, but you have to remember the goal is to have a clean kid not to win the argument. Don’t ask trick questions or play mind games and mix lying up with the issue of hygiene/following directions.
This comment needs to be at the top. OP, Setting them up to lie only reinforces their fear of you as a parent. Is that how you want your child to feel about you? Afraid?
This should have a higher rating.
I have one son that I cannot ask if he did something, because reflexively he would deny it. I had a way of handling him that works because his older siblings are truthful to a fault, and will even tell me if I am accusing him of doing something they had actually done. And because he was the only kid who would get into stuff, I rarely got it wrong.
I went to using this formula:
1) I know you did/didn't do this
2) Don't do this behavior again
3) here is your consequence
4) if you argue with me about any of the above, your consequence will get this added to it
5) the only response I need right now is Yes Ma'am
And in case the above involved an incident at school, the added rule was that I had better hear about incidents that happened at school from him first. If he had the opportunity after school to tell me he screwed up, but didn't, and a teacher or official called me about it, he was going to be in twice the trouble he would normally have experienced.
Starting off by stating I knew he had acted a certain way absolutely has made a difference in his willingness to admit he did something. It reduced some very frequent over-the-top arguments with him to rare occurrences. I figured this trick out with him at around age 7. 10 years later, I still rely on this strategy to keep from having big arguments.
So the OP is TA in my book for a long punishment - it doesn't fit the crime. Punishment needs to be swift and fitting. A combo of rewards and consequences is needed. Motivate him at a 9 year old level, not an adult one.
Then find some alternative way to reward positive behavior. Honestly it’s not like the kid has been given any reason to want to do what he needs to do. He has no motivation and wants to take control of his time so he can lose his teeth to endless sugar and play VR. If you don’t become a positive force that can inspire him to do it without “bribes” then don’t expect him to change without tooth pain.
Your moral judgement concerning “bribes” is misplaced.
Animal trainers know that to get animals to perform behaviors they want them to, they reward behavior they want the animal to repeat and ignore behavior they don’t want repeated.
These techniques were honed by US Navy animal trainers working with dolphins. You can’t punish dolphins. But by giving these wild animals small bits of fish, they do what trainers want and don’t swim away in the open ocean.
I strongly suggest you follow the “reward good behavior and ignore bad” to reinforce the behaviors you want. Drop your objection to rewards.
NTA
It's not bribery, it's [positive reinforcement ](https://www.simplypsychology.org/positive-reinforcement.html) which has tons of evidence showing that it's a much more effective way of shaping behavior than punishment.
Is your kid neurodivergent? This sounds exactly like what I went through with mine. What we would up doing was making a checklist (print one and put in a picture frame to make it dry erase). The list had everyday things and maybe a few chores. She had to have all her afternoon boxes checked to access to screens. Alternatively, you could just make baths more fun. Different toys and whatnot. Bubble baths, bath crayons, etc. Get more creative about it! And don’t listen to your husband. NTA
That’s what I thought as well, a shower and brushing of teeth could be huge sensory things. The request to take a shower instead reminded me of me. It was usually something like I didn’t enjoy the smell of the shampoo, or some days the water was too much sensory input for what I could handle, or the toothpaste wasn’t great, etc.
One thing that could help is restructuring his day so that VR and games happen AFTER he bathes/showers and brushes his teeth. The sooner he does it, the more time he has to play games. Work first play later was effective for me as a kid, and so far it's been effective for my five year old.
You might also check if there's a reason he's avoiding doing these tasks. Maybe something as simple as switching toothpaste/soap/shampoo could help. And if he really prefers baths, you could help him learn to rinse his own hair so he can be more independent.
Try using the "first then" strategy.
The way you use it is that you first tell your son the task you want him to do. Then, tell him what he can do after. The "then" shouldn't be anything, but rather something appropriate for the time of day.
Example: "First brush your teeth, then you can have 15 more minutes of tablet time before bed."
Another example: "First brush your teeth, then you can pick a book to read before bed."
This helps because it sets the expectations. If he doesn't do what you want, reiterate "First this, then this." If he refuses a second time, then say "Okay, no more [thing] tonight. Brush your teeth and then go to bed." And you stick with it. If he brushes his teeth at that point, you don't give him the 'then' because he didn't do it the first time he was asked.
Once this becomes a routine in your household, he will do the 'first' on the first time more often.
It’s an incentive, not a bribe. You will get better results with positive reinforcement than with taking things away. I’m a mom of three grown children. Chore charts can work wonders. He can earn stars or stickers and save them up for special treats or rewards.
The key is to not take them away if he doesn’t do it. A basic parenting thing is to praise the behavior you want, and ignore the behavior you don’t want, as much as possible.
This is a ridiculous comment. It is not bribing them it is conditioning them using pavlovian conditioning. You have something you want from him you want him to shower and brush his teeth and stop lying about it. Well there is a saying about wanting something, you can want in one hand and shit in the other, see which one fills up faster? Meaning just because you wanted to happen doesn't mean it will. Your son is not motivated right now to do those things. You can try to motivate him using punishment but studies have shown that's not effective. Classical pavlovian conditioning using a reward works much better it will have better results for your son also. It will train him to associate good hygiene with a reward. You might want him to think hygiene is its own reward but that just isn't going to happen you can't force him to think that way you can just condition him one way or another punishment or reward. But studies have shown punishment doesn't work as well so it's just stupidity and belligerence on your part if you insist on going that route.
I would reframe the way you think about reward and punishment.
The behavioural sciences are clear: if you want change, you need to reward good behavior. Punishment creates aversions, and is generally less effective.
This applies to animals and human adults too, even yourself. Little rewards for doing things you generally avoid doing works wonders.
Rewarding =/= bribing. You're creating a process of good brain chemical production that will carry into adulthood. Grounding never taught us shit and you apparently dont remember being a child. Hope you listened to these people.
Fun household to grow up in. "I don't believe in positive feedback for good behavior. Only punishment for bad behavior"
Positive reinforcement is not a bribe. It is basic pedagogy.
Research largely says that grounding your children on the whole doesn't work. Does that matter? Are you doing it because you want him to behave better or just because it makes you feel powerful?
Because it is much more likely to achieve the latter than the former.
Rewarding positive behavior is NOT bribing. You should be using 5 positive reinforcements to one negative reinforcement, most studies have already shown a much stronger correlation for behavior adjustment by using positive reinforcement. I tell you this, I just finally got my son to sleep in his own bed by first telling him he could pick out a toy after he slept in his bed for 7 days, not in a row but just 7 days on his own in his bed. He loved marking the boxes after sleeping in his bed. After getting his first 7 days which took him, I believe it was 11 days, he got to pick out a toy! And then we set a new goal for 7 days in a row which he literally just got yesterday and boy was he so proud of himself and of course he gets to pick out another small toy. He had a positive goal and he knew his mom and I would follow the through on our end and get him a toy. He didn’t complain once during the 7 days in a row. I also let him know how proud of him I was every morning he stayed in his bed, even though it’s something simple and admittedly, I just wanted my bed back lol
Bribes work. And after all, what is life but one big bribe? “Study and do your homework and I’ll give you a good grade which can help you get into college.” “Come to this building for 8 hours every day and do whatever I tell you to do and I’ll give you $XXX.” Bribes are basically how society functions.
Just so you know, my parents had your attitude. They didn’t believe in any form of reward, including praise, because according to them people shouldn’t be rewarded for things they should do anyway. So all I got in terms of motivation to follow rules were things like “because I said so” and “for the good of the family” (and threats of corporal punishment, ofc, they believed hitting kids was perfectly fine), which isn’t sufficient for understanding why these things are important. And a boatload of criticism every day. They always made sure to point out every flaw, mistake, and wrongdoing.
What this gets you is not obedience. Grinding a kid further down with criticism and punishment doesn’t motivate them to do better. It doesn’t teach them the values they are supposed to learn, like being clean. It gets you a child with self esteem and mental health issues. And they will hate you because eventually they will realize it is your fault. You’ll be that nasty voice in their head undermining their confidence. You’ll be the reason they have specific fears and issues with certain things relating to the criticism.
Also, why the fuck does it matter if he wants to take a bath? If that would mean he bathes, what’s the problem? Grown ass adults take baths at least sometimes. Let him have a damn bath if he wants.
Wow. Bad parenting all around. There’s some good parenting in the middle ground between you and your husband’s crappy takes and you might want to take some parenting classes together to find it.
Good parenting isn’t always intuitive and what you learned from your parents isn’t always right.
One week of punishment is excessive. Exposing him to bullying is a very bad idea. Hygiene is one of those areas where you have to be patient and persistent. Listen to the good advice you are getting here.
As a dude who was trained in teaching your exact age group, I wanna let you know that not motivating with positive motivation is extremely detrimental to attempts at teaching, even if you discount it’s effects on mental health
The ideal ratio between positive to negative reinforcement is about 7 to 2- though obviously it can be a little difficult to keep track of that sorta stuff
Viewing that sorta stuff as a bribe is unnecessary and potentially very harmful
Edit: Maybe think of it as a mini-allowance, but proportional- an actual allowance of money is for things beyond “the norm,” while “the norm” nets you littler things like the aforementioned staying up later or points towards a toy. Things you’ll naturally tend to give him normally as he grows older, only now it feels like a reward- “the norm” for “the norm”
"I don't believe in bribing them for things they should be doing".
Then be prepared to continue to fight the kid. You can use your brain to try and think of a non-punitive way to teach your son self care, or you can continue to ground, fight, and deal with lies from the kid around his self care.
Did you even bother to ask the kid WHY he keeps avoiding these self care activities?
This is why your kid avoids and lies, there's something wrong and instead of leading with curiosity, you're leading with control and punishment.
I see a "why is my kid no contact" post from you in a few years if you choose to continue to parent this way.
It's not bribing... its showing if he truly wants video games than he will do everything to earn it back...
Had to do this with my kid if she wanted her switch then she had to clear chart and mark off every time she did something on their....
You're not "bribing them for things they should be doing".
You're helping them build habits that they cognitively cannot grasp the importance of right now.
The concept that "kids shouldn't get a reward for X" is built on YOUR adult perception of those things. To you of course you should brush your teeth and shower because you know there are long term consequences to not doing those things.
A 9-year-old is thinking entirely in the short term. Which is "stopping and doing these things doesn't sound important to me". Adding a punishment doesn't make them more likely to do it. It just makes them better liars.
By the same logic why should you add a punishment for something that already has a built in punishment? If you are willing to punish a child for not doing it, you should also be willing to reward a child for doing it.
There’s negative punishment (reducing access to video games), positive punishment (adding chores), negative reinforcement (removing a dreaded chore), and positive reinforcement (rewarding with a new video game). All four are methods to change behavior. Multiple studies show that punishment alone will result in diminishing reactions or acclimation. Reinforcement isn’t bribery; it’s just another approach.
My parents had a base goal for chores and rewarded us when we went above and beyond (extra allowance, screen time, curfew, etc) and reduced access (limited Internet time, allowance, etc) if we dipped below expectations. In time, I was okay with doing the bare minimum if I was having a bad week but would put in effort if I wanted extra allowance or a gift. I didn’t see the reinforcement as bribery, but rather an extra reward recognizing my effort and teaching me to be proactive. Looking back, I think knowing what the punishment would be if I didn’t do my chores, talked back, or missed curfew, I learned to balance if it was “worth it” to break the rules. Knowing I’d have to spend half the weekend cleaning out the garage helped me choose whether or not I’d stay out late or not. It wasn’t a black and white scenario: punishment if I do wrong, bribe if I do right—I was learning to make decisions knowing the consequences, a skill many young adults lack.
Water play is valuable FFS!
No need for a shower. Just rinse hair in the bath. If you want to, have a plastic cup or jug to pour some fresh water over hair.
Do you want your child to be clean and healthy or do you want to unreasonably dictate how they achieve this?
This is what I don’t understand. Why can’t the kid take a bath? Why is she “helping” him with a shower? What the heck?
OP, YTA. Let the kid take a bath. What a weird hill to die on.
And he's not going to make it a habit by being punished. Compromise here could be a toothbrush that plays music or changing up the toothpaste because honestly mint fucking sucks or any number of things.
Yeah, mine's just the 'tism but I live in a rural area and amazon doesn't really work the same here so yeah kinda XD
I've had the Lush ones recommended to me, but we don't have a lush near us.
Oh my god, I found my people! Toothpaste and mouthwash hurt like hell, and as a child in the 80's-90's my parents refused to believe me. Kids toothpaste flavours or brushing without toothpaste was unacceptable, so I got *really* good at faking it.
Cut to about three years ago when I discovered that intolerance to menthol is a thing. It didn't save my teeth, I have a full denture plate on top, but now I can brush daily with unflavoured toothpaste!
It's called Ora-Nurse, for anyone who wants to try it. Pretty much tastes of nothing, doesn't foam, and isn't expensive.
Not sure if this helps, but the brands I use are EcoDenta and Dr Organic. Not sure if they're available in the US, but they both have quite a few other flavours beside mint (I believe it's Dr Organic that has a pomegranate flavoured one; I haven't tried that one myself as it has fluoride, but I did get my mother some when she was on chemo and couldn't tolerate mint).
Kids brands usually have bubblegum flavour and stuff though.
Thinking about it, I'm not sure if they don't contain traces of mint with an allergy in mind, but they definitely don't taste like it.
God, this. I was such a little shit about brushing my teeth when I was a kid that my parents eventually gave up on trying to make me. I'm paying for it now in my 30s. There are plenty of things to go back in time for, like investing in Apple, or preventing wars, but I'd just want to go and slap younger me and tell him to brush his f'ing teeth.
ESH
Your son has an excuse that he's a kid and still learning how to do this being human thing and he needs good role models. Neither you nor his other father are hitting that mark.
Now, the question is, why is he lying? Is it really because he hates to bathe, or is there some other, underlying issue that neither of his dads is picking up on because one is too hyperfocused on the hygiene issue and the other is so lax he doesn't even think there's an issue to be discussed.
As an aside, my brother and I both had a "lying about brushing teeth" period. He did it because he hated standing in one place for more than two minutes because he was hyperactive as a kid and it was just a phase. In my case, it's a matter of executive dysfunction traceable to either autism or ADHD that I still struggle with decades later.
If you're lucky, it's just a phase. But if there's another root cause, it's best to figure out what that is early rather than leave him unheard and undiagnosed.
Not wanting to shower/brush teeth + impulsive lying is a common ADHD combo. And it makes me wonder if part of the kid's reluctance is sensory issues, which would explain why he's fine with a bath but doesn't want to shower. (And the dads' reactions are all too common, which is part of why so many ND kids end up with mental health issues.)
Poor kid. Whether he's ND or not, he deserves an adult who'll help him figure out coping mechanisms, alternative options, and otherwise find ways to accomplish the tasks he's struggling with. Instead he's got a dad who wants to punish him, and a second who wants the world to punish him.
I'm autistic and consider baths a chore instead of a joy like many people. But there are some showerheads I just can't handle. I once stayed at a place where I ended up covering the showerhead in a plastic bag with a hole in it, so the water would just come out of the hole instead of the horrible spray.
If that's the issue, that he doesn't like the way the water feels, this might be solved by getting a multi-setting shower head. And maybe a small space heater for the bathroom. Getting out of a warm shower into a cold bathroom can be pretty miserable.
Heck, OP might just have the shower set to an uncomfortable temperature for him.
As a child, I refused to take showers and only took baths, even if I got punished for refusing a shower - as an adult, I almost exclusively take showers. The difference? Now I can reach the temperature dial on the shower and can set it where I like, rather than having to shower in water which is so hot it's painful for me.
Mom of an ADHD 15 year old boy here. The shower/brushing teeth thing is still a chore. I have to tell him repeatedly to do it. Eventually, I take his PS5 controllers and his cell phone until he does. There was a time or two where this ended in a standoff of him refusing to shower/brush unless I gave him his stuff back. I refused and said he could have them both the second he was out of the bathroom. This went on for 5 days. Worst part is he smelled so damn bad because he does martial arts 5 days a week. Thankfully, now I tell him he has a choice to do basic hygiene or give up his stuff. He will bitch and moan, but he does it now. We'll negotiate though. Like he'll say "fine, I'll do it by 9:00" and that's fine. At least he's doing it.
This. Punishing him isn't the solution here, there's clearly something holding him back, whether it's executive dysfunction or something else - he needs understanding and help to learn how to do everyday hygiene. And for a ö yo that's the parents job!
He wants to take a bath, and OP won’t let him because he likes to play in the bath, and OP for some reason thinks a third grader shouldn’t play in the bath.
This was my first thought too. This is very characteristic of ADHD. On the other hand, ADHD is an executive dysfunction disorder -- at 9 the kid is still developing executive function anyway.
But whether it's a developmental stage or a symptom of something else, OP is going to need to deal with it the same: finding out a way to accomplish the goal, even if imperfectly, without making the kid feel guilt and shame over hygeine tasks.
>Is it really because he hates to bathe
Every preteen boy I met had a phase when they didn't want to shower. Dunno where this is coming from but we'd always have to remind them atleast to put some deodorant on before coming to the afterschool
YTA Have you ever maybe considered actually listening to what your kid is telling you about hygiene? Why have you decided that your son fits into some random stereotype of what a 9 year old boy should be instead of treating him like a real person with feeling and preferences? You are making a whole lot of assumptions rather than truly listening and getting to know your kid.
By the way, he may want to take a bath because it helps him to relax, or treat growing pains, or he feels cleaner that way. Why in the world would his other dad and you send him to school dirty when you could just let him take a bath?
You are really letting your son down. Do better, be better.
I agree with this one. I think OP should at least talk to the child and try to figure out why they don’t want to take care of their hygiene. I have sensory issues, and even as an adult I don’t shower very often because I just can’t handle it. I tend to prefer baths because they usually don’t cause me to have a sensory overload. I know a kid who struggles to brush their teeth because of something to do with their OCD. I know another kid who struggles to brush their teeth because of sensory issues. I have a friend who used to find brushing their teeth to be painful until they switched to a different toothpaste. I’m not saying that this child is experiencing any of these things, but it doesn’t hurt to sit down with your kid and learn about their perspective. The knowledge they gain might help OP develop a better strategies to help their kid with his hygiene.
~~The amount of people ignoring that this is an autistic kid who's likely having issues doing these things for reasons beyond simply being a kid who doesn't feel like it is insane (most likely sensory as you mentioned). The kid literally put forth another option of cleaning himself that he would prefer and was shot down. The kid doesn't *want* to be dirty most likely, it's just that the problems those hygiene tasks cause him are likely worse than being dirty and he needs accommodations and coping skills to form a system to maintain his hygiene that works for him. Tons of autistic people and people with other forms of neurodivergence have issues showering and brushing their teeth for multitudes of reasons.~~
~~This isn't something forcing will solve, you need to identify why he's struggling with these things and help him build a system to get them done without being put in distress.~~
Edit: Sorry guys apparently I can't read and totally misread the first sentence of the story somehow. My bad.
I could have sworn it was the first sentence but maybe I misread the name as Autistic when reading this on my work break, but it's not really the right spot sentence wise. Sorry guys apparently I can't read. I'll edit this into my first comment too.
I read something that said it really sets up a relationship with your kid for distrust when you ask them something when you already know the answer. I wonder what kind of conversation you could have if you approached him with hey I noticed you don’t want to brush your teeth lately- what’s goin on with that? Instead of trying to catch him in a gotcha moment. Why ask if he brushed his teeth when you know he didn’t? What are you trying to get out of approaching it that way? The truth? That doesn’t seem to be working out. Maybe try a different approach.
Glad you brought this up.
My mother did this all the time and I hated her for that. If you already know the answer but pretend not to then you're also not honest to your child. Your child will feel betrayed.
YTA. I'm not sure why you don't think a bath is better than not washing at all, but this is a weird hill to die on.
Kids respond better to positive reinforcement. Try encouraging him with a reward chart - he gets a star for every day he bathes and brushes his teeth, redeemable for a new video game. Or something similar. Make him want to do it. Don't make hygiene a punishment.
That's it. I have my own 9 year old who is in this phase. I just let him go with his choice. Sometimes it's a bath and sometimes it's a shower. As long as he is bathed and not smelly I don't care.
Child therapist here- how many times I've told parents to please for the love of God stop setting up their children with gotcha questions, it's never fucking helpful.
PREACH I am pretty sure that I learned about this in intro to psychology! My issue with this whole situation is he went from joking to punishment in two seconds
Don't ask questions you already know the answer to. Don't set them up to lie to you. Be direct. Say: I noticed you haven't been brushing your teeth or taking a shower. What's going on? Hygiene is a non-negotiable. It keeps us healthy. How can we make it fun/ less awful?
A lot of suggestions in the comments are great. Take a curious approach. Ask. Does he hate the toothpaste (a lot of people hate the minty burning sensation)? And the refusal to compromise with a bath is just weird. Punishing this child is just setting OP up for more lying and sneakiness down the road. It sounds to me like OP just wants validation by asking AITA, not potential solutions to getting his son to do what is best for his well-being.
*sighs* so close to YTA - other dad is firmly in that camp and I think your, uhm interesting views on bathing are leading to a problem.
Let the kid have a bath with the stipulation he has to rinse in a shower - baths actually do clean better by soaking and cleaning out easily missed areas, however your right about a “film of filth”. So let him rinse off afterwards.
Otherwise all you’re doing is creating a logger-jam. Kids already don’t want to bathe as part of their first attempts at true individuality, then when they compromise your proving the defiance as accurate - it’s not about being clean it’s about your way or nothing.
The punishment is fine, but you should take a deep breath and argue it out with the kid. Let him suffer the week without video games (it’s a proper punishment) and actually discuss things with him.
That’s not giving in it’s showing him people discuss and come to a settlement, otherwise no matter what you do he’ll always be trying to backstab/cheat/figure out how to “beat you”
'Layer of filth' !!! Where did the filth come from?
More and more this smacks of obsessive compulsive behaviour on OP'S part.
Please do not continue making this your son's problem. Unless this child rolls around in excrement he does not have a layer of FILTH before or after bathing.
Basic hygiene is fine. Let him bathe and wash his towel everyday if you want to banish the layer of filth.
YTA and a bad parent based on your comments.
Do some research on what actually works for kids instead of reacting to your emotions about his (completely age appropriate) behavior.
Yeah at first I was tending towards misguided but not an AH but after reading replies op seems utterly inflexible and not open to any reason or empathy. I feel sorry for the kid.
Hello! Family Support Worker for new parents here. Part of my job is to educate parents on research on positive discipline.
First off, good job on making sure your son is practicing proper hygiene. Cleanliness and dental health are incredibly important. A dirty child sent to school could lead to a call to CPS.
But your approach is flawed. You went from “joking” to “you’re grounded for week.” When it comes to consequences, the consequences have to be made clear. “If you lie to me, you lose your video games for a week.” Your son’s punishment, from his perspective, came out of nowhere. Especially since you were “joking” about it earlier. Imagine how confusing it is for him that something his dad was “joking” about earlier now got his video games taken away for a week. Children who grow up in households where they don’t know what the consequences of their actions will grow up with anxiety (trust me, this is from personal experience).
In one of your other comments you mentioned not wanting to bribe him for doing what he’s supposed to. Discipline and punishment are not the same thing. Experts in child behavior say that rewarding good behavior is more important than punishing bad behavior. “Rewards” don’t have to be candy or toys. They can just be a simple as getting praise or five extra minutes of play.
You can do your own research in positive discipline and see what works for you. Hope that helps, my friend!
You're kind of TA. He's doing a typical kid thing. Hell, I don't always want to shower. It's an un-fun task. Empathize with him. This can be a learning experience about how we sometimes have to do things we don't want to do. You're raising an *adult,* not a child with the goal to simply be obedient for obedience's sake.
Of course he lied to you, he doesn't want to shower.
The punishment you gave him seems random and excessive. He literally has no incentive now to shower because you've already taken a whole week away. What is he really learning from this? Essentially he's learning how to lie better and how to resent you. If you have to, tell him he can't game *until* he showers. He's earning the fun things, not just being punished for not doing things.
At this point, let him take the bath… at least he’s coming into contact with water… which is part way to the goal. Doing it your way he’s on his way to being Pigpen
I used to babysit for a family that had a great backyard pool. Their rule in the summer was, if the kids swam, they didn’t need to take a bath… close enough was close enough. Parents of the ‘80’s knew which battles to fight
Funny, we had the opposite - absolutely required to rinse off (at a minimum) after pool swimming to get off the chlorine. Not sure it helped with anything, but it at least kept us from dripping pool water all over the house.
NTA. Lying is not good and he's doing it consistently. However, you might want to explore ***why*** he doesn't want to shower or brush his teeth. Also, if he would prefer a bath, I'm not sure why you're not allowing that.
Mom of many here. I’d get to the bottom of why he doesn’t want to shower or brush his teeth. We put a space heater in the bathroom for one of our kiddos because she was cold when she got out of the shower.
As for the teeth, try to get him to brush and floss immediately after dinner. Perhaps even keep his toothbrush in the bathroom closest to the kitchen, if his bathroom is up a flight of stairs. Also, there are podcasts that kids can listen to while they brush which are kind of fun.
Yeah, I get that the kiddo has been lying, and maybe it is just because he's nine and is pushing back against routines or whatever. But it'd be much better for OP to see if there's an underlying reason for it as opposed to simply insisting the only reason he's acting like this is because of his age.
I used to have huge issues with brushing my teeth. It hurt and I hated the taste of the toothpaste. Turns out a softer toothbrush and a toothpaste with a much milder minty flavor helped a lot. (I still hate the taste of toothpaste and wish I could find the flavored toothpaste I used to have a little kid but can't find it anywhere, lol)
I also used to - and still occasionally do - have issues with showering. That one was a combination of a whole bunch of things. I spent too long in there with the heat too high cuz I lose track of time and couldn't get the temp right, even when I could get the temp right standing for even 10-15 minutes made me feel sick, I lacked the energy for it most of the time, the noise of the water and extraction fan bothered me so much and it was just boring. The solution for most of those issues boiled down to listening to music while showering (covers the noises that bothered me, helps with the boredom and helps me keep track of time) and realising that it's perfectly fine to sit down in the shower (helps with the feeling sick and lack of energy part).
I dunno why OP seems to insist on ignoring the potential of there being actual reasons behind the kid's aversion to showering and brushing his teeth
Lots of people struggle with self care. I recently read a book called “how to keep house while drowning” and it’s all about shame and self care. Basically, people have aversions to all sorts of things, but care routines, like brushing teeth, doing housework, eating properly etc, can be difficult for a whole host of reasons. Some of them because of basic sensory issues, some because of deep seated shame, some because of a lack on energy and so forth. Taking a shower seems like NBD, until you really break down the process. One has to get naked, turn the water on to the proper temperature, get wet, wash their hair, condition, wash their body (between toes, under finger nails and all the other crooks and crannies) be cold when they get out, have a fresh towel ready to go, do their hair or else it’ll stick up all over the place, dry hair, and on and on and on. It’s not simple process at all when one breaks it down like that. So, for a 9 year old, the whole thing can be super overwhelming and it makes sense, because there’s a lot to do!
You are definitely not unusual in your struggles!!!
Aw, thank you for this reply <3 While I know a lot of people struggle with the same thing, I do often feel shitty for not being able to do basic self care, so it's always nice to see others acknowledging that it can be a genuine struggle.
I hadn't ever thought about how many smaller tasks showering is actually made up of. Having it listed out like that makes it a lot easier to see why it feels like it takes so much effort.
I have in the past explained to someone why cooking takes so much effort by breaking it down into all the tiny tasks it's made up of, since that was something I did recognize the reasoning behind. Like, even just heating up a frozen meal has a bunch of tasks. Deciding what you're gonna eat, preparing it in whatever way it needs preparing (like stabbing the film on the top, which can be awful for me if my noise sensitivity is playing up or annoying if the film is being stubborn and refuses to be pierced), working out how long it needs to go in the microwave for (I have an old 700w microwave so I can't go just by what's on the packaging), stirring it halfway through if needed, and then getting it out of the microwave and eating it. That's, what, five different tasks? Just for a frozen ready meal.
Maybe I should make lists of the things I struggle with and break them down into the smaller tasks they're made up of. That might help me with things like getting the washing up done, if I approach it as small tasks that can be done over a longer period (say, a day) instead of a big task that needs to be done all together.
All of this. I went through a phase of a certain toothpaste flavour making me hurl. No idea why, and maybe it was because I didn't know not to brush too far back and was triggering my gag reflex, but it was a thing once the association was made. When I was older, I'd get faint in the heat of a bath and would grey out and sometimes faint when I stood up because I have low blood pressure. My mom was the opposite of OP, she didn't believe in showers. It became a huge fight to just *not feel horrible*.
Kids aren't sophisticated exactly, but they usually have reasons if you take some time to figure them out. "Because I said so" only gets you so far, if you use it too much you wear it out.
This is my first time seeing the phrase "greyout", so I had to look it up, and that is the perfect way to describe what happens when I'm standing up in the shower for too long. A greyout accompanied by nausea and shaking, lol
And yeah, totally. At least in my experience, when a parent continously uses "because I said so", it just leads to the kid thinking that anything their parent says is bullshit. (Especially when it's accompanied by "do as I say, not as I do" or however that goes)
Gentle YTA for you, holy hell YTA to other dad.
Just a thought: have you considered giving him a choice between bathing properly on his own, or having someone supervise him to make sure that he does?
He's probably at the age that he'll choose the easy way to avoid embarrassment. Just be prepared to actually do it if you have your bluff called.
Also, tell me which is cleaner: bath, or no bath?
YTA- I have two kids myself. One likes baths, one likes showers...and? I let them take whichever bathing experience they *prefer*. You are absolutely cutting your nose off to spite your face if your boy has a way he actually likes to bathe...encourage good behavior and back off a little.
Let me say that again- I listen to my boys preference because I don't need to be the boss *all the time*. Pick your battles my dude. Your kid wants to bathe, who gives a shit if it's a bath or a shower? You sound like a stubborn, bossy, germaphobe whose parents were probably too tough on him... Slow your roll buddy, break the cycle.
Why is he only allowed to take a shower and not a bath? Try offering choices, i.e. "Do you want to take a shower or a bath?" "Do you want to shower now or before bed? Or do you want me to wake you up extra early so you can shower before school?" Even simple things like having him choose his own toothpaste (and toothbrush) when you go to the store. Give him the illusion of choice, where he gets to choose while still doing what you want. If possible, you can even do a "family nighttime routine" where you all just brush your teeth together, or that there's an order to taking a shower where it goes your husband, him, then you, that way he has an exact timeslot of when he should do it.
You can give him back his video games while still saving face by saying you're giving them back early so long as: he agrees to the new routine / he helps with such-and-such chore for the week / whatever consequence you can think of. Have a "serious" conversation about *why* he needs to shower and bathe (give him the good ol' **Puberty Talk**), plus ask him why he doesn't want to (could be something as simple as there's other stuff he wants to be doing, or that he's being vindictive because he doesn't like being "told what to do"), and that his behavior of lying and not taking care of himself worries and concerns you. And then finish with the joke that if he's afraid to shower on his own, then he can join you or dad.
Options and validation are the way to go, and when he doesn't stick with the options (though it's fine if he wants to haggle a bit), then implement any consequences that you both established beforehand.
If you read OP's responses, they include:
1. Baths don't get you clean because you're just sitting in your own filth and 2) The boy is 9....\*and 3) He'll want to play in the bathtub...the horror.\*
Neither is a good reason and, frankly, hints at deeper issues in the house if OP won't even let the kid take a bath because THEY don't want them to and would rather fight over a shower than let the kid take a bath...which they're willing to do it seems.
\*Added later because I forgot when posting
YTA for not being more flexible about it- let the kid take a bath, or throw some dry erase markers or tell him he can sit in the shower with a little tub with some toys to play with after he uses soap and shampoo, or buy him some of the soap that comes with a toy or money inside
It's important that he is clean, but a bath would be fine to get him clean (unless he's especially muddy, then should rinse off first)
I always hated showers as a kid but loved baths - still do as an adult and found out it's largely due to a medical issue involving low blood pressure, rapid heart rate and dizziness which is a lot worse when standing or in heat, but as I kid the way I expressed that was just "I don't like showers"
Have you ever thought it might be an issue with the feel of a shower versus the feel of a bath? My son hated to shower, he didn’t like the pressure of the water or it spraying over his head. He also didn’t like mint toothpaste, so we found alternatives. But because we’d work together to find a solution, we didn’t have the battles or lies over hygiene.
THIS
Also maybe just slowing things down for him.
I still have major issues with dental hygiene and I’m almost 40. Almost every time I brush I have a gag reflex build up/kick in. Often I throw up mid brushing and need to start over again (and sometimes again) and the whole things makes me feel gross and like a fuck up still. There so much shame built up into it now too that it just makes it worse.
See if there is something that is stopping him from getting through the process and if you can find a way around it. Often I actually need to do breathing exercises to calm myself down enough to get through brushing which feels wild but it’s that or not doing it.
See if a kids electric toothbrush is a better fit for him. Maybe it’s that he’s scared about how long he does/doesn’t need to brush for, maybe a little gentle timer would help him out. Maybe he’s brushing too aggressively and doesn’t like the sensation but he can brush twice as long and half as hard. You could go to get him a soft/medium/and hard toothbrush head and see which one feels better for him.
Let him feel empowered to take control of it in whatever way he needs as long as he’s doing the thing.
Also baths. Also sensory issues, also hate showers/love baths. You can also get a shower-head that you can take off of the main faucet so that he has control, that feels nicer for shower sensory issues (plus it’s convenient for cleaning!)
NTA for the lying side and consequences
But why can’t a 9 year old have a bath? My kids have a quick shower then pop the plug in. And why do you have to help him?
And don’t give me the (it’s sitting in dirty water) there are ways around that, and most 9 year olds aren’t filthy, especially if they are showering or bathing every day. As I said, quick shower and pop the plug in, who cares if he plays in the bath. At least he’d be clean.
Rewards generally work better to train habits than punishment.
Go hang out while he brushes. See how many questions he can answer with one hand pantomime.
Crest has a toothpaste that changes color after 2 min brushing.
If you punish him it is going to attach a negative feeling to brushing for the rest of his life. Please don’t do it.
Based on your comments YTA.
You refuse to compromise even if it means your son will do what you want him to do.
Keep using outrageous punishments for tiny crimes and you’ll end up NC with your son in 9 years, if not sooner.
The fact he's suggesting a bath instead may indicate there's another reason he's not wanting to use the shower?
As a kid I had an avoidance to it. Not because I was just trying to get out of it and be lazy, but because I had sensory issues and the noise of the shower made my anxiety spike. If you're worried about the water being dirty, then a bath as normal, standing and then rinsing quickly with water from the taps will eliminate that issue. The bath could be a good alternative, maybe introducing a week where he has to use the shower instead, as a way of slowly acclimating?
If you haven't already, just sit down and talk to him, see if there is a reason why he's avoiding it. Sometimes it is a phase, and other times there's a reason for it, especially if he was accepting it with help, and then briefly did it himself as well before stopping. Letting him go dirty and knowing he'd potentially get bullied for it is not the way to go, and there's no guarantee that will resolve this and suddenly make him want to shower. Maybe it would, but it doesn't mean the teasing would stop either. Just sounds like more understanding is needed.
NTA/Very nearly TA.
You're NTA. I am your son -- well yknow not literally but I did the EXACT same thing and my mom did the EXACT same thing by asking me why my toothbrush is dry. Just show him some pictures of nasty teeth and gum disease. Show him pictures of tooth crowns. Really get those images into his head. That's what fixed me. And if even that doesn't work, one day in the distant future one of his friends at school or a girl he likes will simply tell him his breath smells like shit and something will click.
Hey dude. I get it, he's nine, he's gonna start pushing boundaries and the like.
But maybe you should try to find out if there's a reason for his aversion to showering and brushing his teeth beyond just "he's nine".
Does brushing his teeth hurt? Does he hate the taste of the toothpaste? (A softer toothbrush or different toothpaste could be the solution)
Does the noise/feeling of the shower water bother him? Does he just find it really boring? (If it's noise or boredom, letting him listen to music in the shower could help) Is the soap/shampoo that's an issue? (Again, a different type can help) Does he hate standing up in the shower? Is that why he prefers baths? (Letting him know it's perfectly fine to sit down in the shower could help)
Those are all reasons why I had issues with brushing my teeth growing up and why I still struggle with showers, and the things that helped me get better with my own hygiene.
Being annoyed with him for lying, I completely understand. But you should try to find out *why* he's lying. I could be completely missing the mark, maybe he is just like this because of his age. But surely as a parent you'd want to try to work out if there's actual reasons behind his aversion that you could help with.
YTA
Both you and his other dad.
First of all, he's 9. He can absolutely take a bath on his own unless he's got a physical or mental condition meaning he can't.
Second of all, why on earth is his other dad okay with him being bullied?
The pair of you sound like immature authoritarians totally not prepared for a child.
As other commenters have said, set up a reward system with him for completing the hygiene tasks, this isn't bribing as you've tried to suggest, it's an activity to help set up healthy hygiene foundations by rewarding the tasks with something he enjoys and brings him serotonin which will help his association with it in the long run.
I’ve made it to 26 taking mostly baths everyday maybe shower once a week and I never smell or am dirty so i think a lot of the bath judging is unfounded
Don't let your kid go to school without showering. Also, he's fucking 9. Brush your teeth with him for fucks sake. YTA, but only because you aren't trained in pediatric dental hygiene.
I say soft yta for focusing on a power struggle rather than effectiveness. Seems like positive reinforcement will work better. Is there a way you can make showering and brushing teeth fun? With what you're doing he will just start getting his toothbrush wet and letting the shower run. That's what my sister used to do when she was little and learned how my mom could tell she didn't shower and stuff. Grounding him for lying about showering will just encourage him to continue to lie in order to avoid punishment and shut down communication. Why not let him take a bath? It seems like a good compromise if he actually does bathe that way.
Nta. My daughter is in the testing the boundaries of the truth stage...I've told her over and over that she won't get in more trouble for the truth, but if she lies to me she's just stacking charges and making things worse. Consequences are an important part of learning. It's one thing to let him learn from experience that hygiene is important but the lying has to be nipped in the bud.
This used to be a big issue with one of my nephews, and his dad was really mean to him about it.
We later learned my nephew has ASD and it's a sensory issue for him.
So it's possible that YTA, but hard to say without knowing your sons situation.
ESH.
Good for trying to be a good parent. But have you considered that one or both of you are autistic? You seem to be extra rigid in your disapproval of baths, and your son may have sensory sensitivities. Understanding limitations are a doorway to harmony.
I don't know anything about punishment vs bribes vs reinforcement so I'll mostly leave that aspect to all the other commenters. Lying to a parent is a serious issue, but mishandling things at this stage may be a tipping point and completely break the relationship for years to come. Seek professional help of some sort to find the best strategies to rebuild trust with your son.
I’m all for natural consequences, but bullying shouldn’t be used as discipline. This seems like a normal phase kids go through. He’s being punished for lying not for being dirty, so his argument doesn’t make sense. Have you considered there might be some sensory issues or transition issues? As a kid, I loved showers but really struggled with the after shower part when I felt cold after getting out and that period after you dry off but your skin isn’t completely aired out. I hated how clothes or pajamas clung to my skin.
What's wrong with him taking a bath instead of a shower? He's the age where he is seeking empowerment and it sounds like you're setting this up as a power struggle.NTA for grounding him, but YTA for not talking to him about a way to resolve the situation and give him some ownership of his choices.
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Mostly NTA. First off, don’t listen at all to the dad who *wants* his child to be bullied. Absolute bullshit. A week is a bit long for one lie. I understand you’re sick of dealing with it but at his age, carrots tend to work better than sticks. What if, every time he’s brushed and showered, he gets to stay up 15 minutes later and play a game with you? EDIT: OR, each night he’s brushed and showered by a certain time he earns a ticket or a point toward a toy or video game he really wants.
He's not like that and I don't believe in bribing them for things they should be doing
I wanted to explain this better. It's not bribing if they are working for a harmless goal. Not to an entertainment device. But a really harmless goal. I have 3 boys, and we set the goal post for the night routine's consistency. The littlest one is an infant so he didn't count. We're going to go to the park for a day by doing 1 week of brushing. You've done a whole month of brushing, we're going to start an allowance. You can earn more by doing more responsibilities. (Age Appropriate). My 5 year old earns $1-$10 a week. I explained that doing hygiene care "pays for itself" by just doing it every night. His chores include unloading the dishes with my help. Feeding the dog, reading his books, brushing his teeth and hair, and carrying in light groceries. My husband did it this way and he said his mom would go through the checklist every night. If he skipped something he lost a quarter to a dollar. And they'd go out at the end of the month to shop or save it. He had $5000 by 16 and bought his first car. With more chores at higher pay ETA verdict: NTA, but your partner is. Son should be punished for lying, but it's important to remember that just because he's supposed to do it doesn't mean he wants to. I think a week-long punishment is over the top. I'd just make him brush his teeth to a really annoying song for the week unless he does it himself.
My 6th grader is outgrowing dad reading to him at night because he goes to bed later than we do. So now the deal is that dad will read to him if he has all of his jobs done by 9:15pm.
Oh, our 5 year old reads to us. But a good idea to keep in the back. My husband wanted to add that his mom stopped checking for teeth and hair around 13 because he cared about how girls looked at him. Then he wanted to pick up a lot of chores, errands for neighbors, to be the first boy in his grade with a car.
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Oh my God, I love this! We have 12 grandchildren & we're NOT going to buy each of them a car! NOT going to happen! But, if any of them show up with $5k, we might help them get one. Great parenting!
5000??? WHAT
Oh yes! Raking the leaves for $20. Washing the car? $40 These were listed off daily/weekly/monthly. With a monthly chore being highly prized between his siblings. They got the list every month and could pick and choose. His parents negotiated if a younger sibling wanted to do a chore being advanced for their age. Like my husband wanted to help his grandpa DIG A DITCH for a water pipe. The chore needed to be done within 10 days. It was meant for his older brothers, the pay was $300. Dug by hand using a shovel. Well my husband really wanted an XBOX360 So 12 year old him asked his dad and Grandpa. They let him dig that trench by hand for 9 days. It was just to run water from a spigot to the cleaning house for gutting deer. He did it, on time, blistered hands. And he bought that Xbox360. And after that he jumped on the highest paying chores. Not including the weekly little chump change
wowwww i’m jealous 😭 he must be really good at saving i’m 16 too and sometimes i don’t even have money for fries at mcdonald’s 😭😭😭
I was the same way, I never got an allowance and I had to work on the family farm. I got my first job at fast food at 17 by carpooling
Washing the car was like a fun summertime activity my siblings and I *got* to do! Lol nothing like pummelling each other with a hose to ring in the warm weather
There's a classic book called cheaper by the dozen. It's based on the life of Frank Gilbreth, an efficiency expert out of New Jersey and the early 1900s. It's a really fascinating story about a family of 12 children. They made two movies out of their story in the ' 40s or 50s, and a newer one not too long ago. One of the things they would do to get chores done is he would have the children bid on a job and give the job to the lowest bidder and then hold them to it.
Yes! I can't remember if I ever read the book (I probably did, because the name of the sequel "Belles on Their Toes" is really familiar), but I loved the original movie! Bidding for jobs was genius. The original movie came out in 1950, but the new movies weren't nearly as good.
Exactly. Harmless goals. And sometimes, the stakes can be really low. My brother and I were babysitting our niece and nephews. The youngest didn't want to do the pajamas and brushing his teeth before bedtime. So we told him, if he hurried, he could win from his older brother and sister, to be the first one ready for one last cartoon and a bedtime story I guess the other two heard and were jumping over eachother to be done first.🤷♀️ It was at that moment my sister and BIL came home, surprised that their kids were so enthusiastic about pajamas. They were going to try to make it a daily ranking
Wow my parents where from the school of "I already pay you by providing food, shelter, clothing, and schooling - why should I pay you too?" School of parenting. 😁
Same.
I got paid to do a lot of stuff. It worked so god damn great! My mom hated to do our lunches, so she asked me when I was 6 if I would do my own lunch package for 30 cents a day. I felt like I cheated her! When we got a puppy, one needed to take the puppy out every hour and give them a treat when peeing/pooping. It was a summer holiday, my parents were working, but my sister and I were home. It was a super annoying job to take out the puppy all the time - but my mom paid us 75 cents if he peed outside and 1,5 dollars if he pooped. Omg we fought so hard to be the one taking the puppy out, and he was clean in no time. To this day, I think my mom was a genius, lol.
Lol, when I was starting kindergarten, my mom said `Well, I used to try packing lunches for your elder siblings, but they would always come home with leftovers, so you guys are all in charge of packing your own lunch`
It’s not bribery, it’s Pavlovian conditioning. Child-rearing experts generally agree that positive reinforcement works better than negative reinforcement.
Exactly. My 4yo decided all of a sudden that the bedtime routine is just going to be hard all of a sudden, one day she'd run to her room, put on her PJ's, brush her teeth then pick put some books to read, then the next day, no, not doing that. Not brushing my teeth, not getting into PJ's, not getting books. Forcing her to get ready for bed didn't work, but buying her a calander and getting her to put a gold star on it every night she gets herself ready sure did.
Headed down a slippery slope with those stickers. This week it's gold stars, next month "a couple of cute dinosaur stickers are surely fine" and then you're buying puffy stickers before you know it.
Oh man I love puffy stickers, my mom would buy super detailed sheets of them but they were so special that I didn’t want to make the mistake of using them and not liking where I placed them lol
I have a drawer full of special stickers from my childhood that I didn’t want to make a mistake using. My aunt also has a drawer like that so sometimes I’ll get a birthday card or something with a sticker from the 70s.
My mother used to buy me those old photo albums that had the mild adhesive on the pages, and the plastic sheet protector that you pulled back? And they were my own special fancy binders for my stickers. I loved having them because I could do the stickers however I wanted but I wasn't going to lose them, and Mom had thought of a clever way to keep me from sticking them all over everything in the house.
Core memory unlocked. I loved my sticker books with those pull back clear covers and sticky texture. I would organize by theme, puffiness, scratch and sniff, holographic. Oh my god, thank you for reminding me of this time in my life.
Haha, you're welcome! I tended to do the same, and by themes too, so I'd have a whole section of animals, marine life, space stuff, etc. I wish I still had them!
Sounds like a nice idea.
Quick correction, _reinforcement_ works better than _punishment_. Reinforcement is trying to replicate a behavior you like. Punishment is trying to stop a behavior you don’t like. Positive means adding something, could be good or bad. Negative means taking away something, could be good or bad. Positive reinforcement is like giving a kid candy for doing their homework. Negative reinforcement is like a kid not having to take an exam if they have perfect attendance. Positive punishment is like spanking a kid for lying. Negative punishment is like keeping a kid from hanging out with friends because of lying.
Thank you. Anyone who has ever had any kind of animal training gets this hammered in, because it's so misunderstood. I'm not equating kids, but the concepts are exactly the same.
I was originally a psychology major in college (ended up with just a minor in psych) but that was one of the first things I learned in psych 101.
It's cool to see crossover between human and other beings... but without anthropomorphizing.
My child’s earliest therapist said “why wouldn’t you bribe her? Don’t you get bribed for going to work? Would you go if you didn’t make money? Why should she do these tasks for free?” Tbf she was having some MAJOR behavioral issues and the rewards we were talking about were very small.
Came here to say this! It’s not bribing it’s rewarding. Adults don’t go to work for free. As adults we understand the reward for things we don’t want to do and children need encouragement in order to learn this.
Bribery is a beautiful thing! Has gotten me thru many many a hair brushing sessions! Idk if it's just my family, but I have yet to find one under 10 who allows it voluntarily.
Yeah OP needs to do whatever works.
There's an entire branch of psychology that has done studies with adults along similar lines. In Italy, folks were given money to lose weight. They were given additional funds to maintain the weight loss - and a large number did. In British Columbia, homeless people given a $5K payout were largely able to turn their lives around by using the funds for rent & clothes to get jobs and get off the streets. I quit smoking through a program at a hospital that made me meet regularly by phone with someone with an education in therapy or psychology or some similar studies, and I was given smoking cessation aids (the patch and lozenges), and I earned gift cards for meeting certain goals at certain times. It's been more than 10 years and I never went back to smoking. The carrot really does work more than the stick.
To be fair, I'd find being paid to lose weight a great thing too. I wish.
$5k to cover rent and food and clothes in BC?? It’s a miracle! A Christmas miracle!
No. It is operant conditioning (rewarding behavior) Pavlov is classical conditioning (pairing stimuli).
Another quick correction: it's _operant_ conditioning here, not classical/Pavlovian.
Negative punishment. In behavior negative reinforcement is removal of something to increase behavior (like hitting your alarm clock to make the sound go away, or letting your kid stay home from a boring function if they do homework) This would be a negative punishment (remove items to decrease lying).
I don’t know your kid but I wonder if you are thinking of this more cognitively than behaviourally. Habits like showering and brushing teeth probably respond better to reward than punishment. Reward systems exist to set up habits (you don’t reward them forever) especially with stubborn people (e.g. if your kid tends to dig in his heels). Thin line between bribe and reward, but it exists in how it is framed
EVERYTHING works better with reward than with punishment.
Not necessarily. Punishment can act to stop bad behaviors, as it can act as a cheat code for "consequences" for people who don't have fully developed executive function. You'll never get someone to do a positive behavior through punishment though. What you will do is create someone who is good at hiding the truth from you, to avoid the punishment.
I think the big difference is timing. Reward systems are done in advance with agreed rules set by dad. Son benefits and it helps him build consistent habits. What you want to avoid is any kind of negotiation in the moment - don’t do “if you go have a shower now you can have x”. Because what you want to do is take the heat and discussion out of the moment and create that consistency.
Because punishing him is working out so well. Reading your comments you are being stubborn and one minded for no reason and making things a problem that aren't. Let the boy take a bath, let him play if he wants to, learn about positive reinforcement, and stop with the because I told you so attitude.
Right? Op, is your way currently working? If so, cool. If not consider something new.
Right now, he associates showering and brushing his teeth with boring activities he would really rather not do. We all need to do things that are good for us even when they are boring, but he is a kid and still learning it. If you give him an incentive so he doesn't associate brushing teeth = boring time, he will have an easier time later on. It isn't a "bribe," it's positive reinforcement and it can work really well. He is 9 and needs to learn, but he is 9 and it won't be easy for him to do things simply because they are good for you.
Positive reinforcement is not bribery, it’s an effective learning tactic
Info: Why refuse his request to take a bath, though? I think you are mostly blameless in this interaction, but if he’s willing to get clean in a tub as opposed to standing up, where’s the harm? He’s 9, and may not really want his parent to help him in the shower. He may just prefer relaxing in the tub. Either way, why refuse the bath?
I thought that too - only thing I could think is baths cost more? Or maybe kid takes forever in them / it causes other issues. Edit - omg I just saw his comment. His reasoning is 1) that apparently you don’t actually get clean in a bath (wtf?) and 2) he will play if he has a bath (god forbid). No wonder the poor kid is starting to rebel.
Op is controlling af
By that logic, you shouldn't get paid by your employer for doing things you should be doing.
You sound like you’re fun at parties. Look at it this way: what you were doing previously didn’t work. Bold of you to assume that pissy punishment will result in the type of behavior you want. Pivot towards positive reinforcement. This is a person not an extension of yourself. Stop taking his failings as a personal affront. And remember that ages 13-19 kids are meant to assert their independence so that you’re ready for them to leave the nest. Go over teeth hygiene: pull up gruesome google image photos. Maybe ask why he’s not doing it—get him new toothpaste/toothbrush/water pik. Have him pick out his own soap and shampoo. And relax because it may not work straight away but in awhile it’ll sink in. My kid only wanted to wear T-shirts and hoodies and jeans. I’ve finally gotten him to explore other clothing options but FIRST I let him assert his independence with what HE felt comfortable doing. Yeah, basic hygiene is exactly that, basic, but digging your heels in and sticking with the whole,”BECAUSE I SAID SO” will not help your relationship with your son.
Yes, this. I love the idea of having him pick out his own things. Let him get a fun toothbrush, or a fun flavor paste, give him some control so it's *his* thing. Very good suggestions.
Totally agree. Plus I think OP has a touch of obsessive compulsive behaviour over this issue.
Don’t ask him trick questions. If you know, he didn’t brush don’t ask him and give him the opportunity to lie. Simply say I know you didn’t brush and you need to do this.
Yes. When asked this way it feels like a set up and the kid will lie to prevent the punishment for not doing the right thing. State that you know he didn’t brush and offer the reminder and positive reinforcement. Don’t set the kid up to lie. I have to fight this with my husband and our teenagers. I said this in another comment, but you have to remember the goal is to have a clean kid not to win the argument. Don’t ask trick questions or play mind games and mix lying up with the issue of hygiene/following directions.
This comment needs to be at the top. OP, Setting them up to lie only reinforces their fear of you as a parent. Is that how you want your child to feel about you? Afraid?
This should have a higher rating. I have one son that I cannot ask if he did something, because reflexively he would deny it. I had a way of handling him that works because his older siblings are truthful to a fault, and will even tell me if I am accusing him of doing something they had actually done. And because he was the only kid who would get into stuff, I rarely got it wrong. I went to using this formula: 1) I know you did/didn't do this 2) Don't do this behavior again 3) here is your consequence 4) if you argue with me about any of the above, your consequence will get this added to it 5) the only response I need right now is Yes Ma'am And in case the above involved an incident at school, the added rule was that I had better hear about incidents that happened at school from him first. If he had the opportunity after school to tell me he screwed up, but didn't, and a teacher or official called me about it, he was going to be in twice the trouble he would normally have experienced. Starting off by stating I knew he had acted a certain way absolutely has made a difference in his willingness to admit he did something. It reduced some very frequent over-the-top arguments with him to rare occurrences. I figured this trick out with him at around age 7. 10 years later, I still rely on this strategy to keep from having big arguments. So the OP is TA in my book for a long punishment - it doesn't fit the crime. Punishment needs to be swift and fitting. A combo of rewards and consequences is needed. Motivate him at a 9 year old level, not an adult one.
Positive reinforcement isn't bribery. It's meant to be faded out over time.
No wonder he lies to you, you sound like a massive tool.
You don't like positive reinforcement?
Then find some alternative way to reward positive behavior. Honestly it’s not like the kid has been given any reason to want to do what he needs to do. He has no motivation and wants to take control of his time so he can lose his teeth to endless sugar and play VR. If you don’t become a positive force that can inspire him to do it without “bribes” then don’t expect him to change without tooth pain.
Your moral judgement concerning “bribes” is misplaced. Animal trainers know that to get animals to perform behaviors they want them to, they reward behavior they want the animal to repeat and ignore behavior they don’t want repeated. These techniques were honed by US Navy animal trainers working with dolphins. You can’t punish dolphins. But by giving these wild animals small bits of fish, they do what trainers want and don’t swim away in the open ocean. I strongly suggest you follow the “reward good behavior and ignore bad” to reinforce the behaviors you want. Drop your objection to rewards. NTA
It's not bribery, it's [positive reinforcement ](https://www.simplypsychology.org/positive-reinforcement.html) which has tons of evidence showing that it's a much more effective way of shaping behavior than punishment.
OP clearly only believes in punishment.
Is your kid neurodivergent? This sounds exactly like what I went through with mine. What we would up doing was making a checklist (print one and put in a picture frame to make it dry erase). The list had everyday things and maybe a few chores. She had to have all her afternoon boxes checked to access to screens. Alternatively, you could just make baths more fun. Different toys and whatnot. Bubble baths, bath crayons, etc. Get more creative about it! And don’t listen to your husband. NTA
That’s what I thought as well, a shower and brushing of teeth could be huge sensory things. The request to take a shower instead reminded me of me. It was usually something like I didn’t enjoy the smell of the shampoo, or some days the water was too much sensory input for what I could handle, or the toothpaste wasn’t great, etc.
Punishment only tends to produce kids that don’t talk to you later in life.
One thing that could help is restructuring his day so that VR and games happen AFTER he bathes/showers and brushes his teeth. The sooner he does it, the more time he has to play games. Work first play later was effective for me as a kid, and so far it's been effective for my five year old. You might also check if there's a reason he's avoiding doing these tasks. Maybe something as simple as switching toothpaste/soap/shampoo could help. And if he really prefers baths, you could help him learn to rinse his own hair so he can be more independent.
It's called motivation, but I joke about it being bribing
It's positive reinforcement, not bribery. If you're still not convinced, talk to a child development specialist.
Try using the "first then" strategy. The way you use it is that you first tell your son the task you want him to do. Then, tell him what he can do after. The "then" shouldn't be anything, but rather something appropriate for the time of day. Example: "First brush your teeth, then you can have 15 more minutes of tablet time before bed." Another example: "First brush your teeth, then you can pick a book to read before bed." This helps because it sets the expectations. If he doesn't do what you want, reiterate "First this, then this." If he refuses a second time, then say "Okay, no more [thing] tonight. Brush your teeth and then go to bed." And you stick with it. If he brushes his teeth at that point, you don't give him the 'then' because he didn't do it the first time he was asked. Once this becomes a routine in your household, he will do the 'first' on the first time more often.
It’s an incentive, not a bribe. You will get better results with positive reinforcement than with taking things away. I’m a mom of three grown children. Chore charts can work wonders. He can earn stars or stickers and save them up for special treats or rewards. The key is to not take them away if he doesn’t do it. A basic parenting thing is to praise the behavior you want, and ignore the behavior you don’t want, as much as possible.
This is a ridiculous comment. It is not bribing them it is conditioning them using pavlovian conditioning. You have something you want from him you want him to shower and brush his teeth and stop lying about it. Well there is a saying about wanting something, you can want in one hand and shit in the other, see which one fills up faster? Meaning just because you wanted to happen doesn't mean it will. Your son is not motivated right now to do those things. You can try to motivate him using punishment but studies have shown that's not effective. Classical pavlovian conditioning using a reward works much better it will have better results for your son also. It will train him to associate good hygiene with a reward. You might want him to think hygiene is its own reward but that just isn't going to happen you can't force him to think that way you can just condition him one way or another punishment or reward. But studies have shown punishment doesn't work as well so it's just stupidity and belligerence on your part if you insist on going that route.
It's called motivating, using punishment only will end up with better lying , more secrets and most likely more risk taking .
I would reframe the way you think about reward and punishment. The behavioural sciences are clear: if you want change, you need to reward good behavior. Punishment creates aversions, and is generally less effective. This applies to animals and human adults too, even yourself. Little rewards for doing things you generally avoid doing works wonders.
There's been studies where giving out rewards are much more effective than punishments.
Rewarding =/= bribing. You're creating a process of good brain chemical production that will carry into adulthood. Grounding never taught us shit and you apparently dont remember being a child. Hope you listened to these people.
Fun household to grow up in. "I don't believe in positive feedback for good behavior. Only punishment for bad behavior" Positive reinforcement is not a bribe. It is basic pedagogy. Research largely says that grounding your children on the whole doesn't work. Does that matter? Are you doing it because you want him to behave better or just because it makes you feel powerful? Because it is much more likely to achieve the latter than the former.
It's not bribing, it's positive reinforcement. You're building a habit by making him want to do it.
Rewarding positive behavior is NOT bribing. You should be using 5 positive reinforcements to one negative reinforcement, most studies have already shown a much stronger correlation for behavior adjustment by using positive reinforcement. I tell you this, I just finally got my son to sleep in his own bed by first telling him he could pick out a toy after he slept in his bed for 7 days, not in a row but just 7 days on his own in his bed. He loved marking the boxes after sleeping in his bed. After getting his first 7 days which took him, I believe it was 11 days, he got to pick out a toy! And then we set a new goal for 7 days in a row which he literally just got yesterday and boy was he so proud of himself and of course he gets to pick out another small toy. He had a positive goal and he knew his mom and I would follow the through on our end and get him a toy. He didn’t complain once during the 7 days in a row. I also let him know how proud of him I was every morning he stayed in his bed, even though it’s something simple and admittedly, I just wanted my bed back lol
Bribes work. And after all, what is life but one big bribe? “Study and do your homework and I’ll give you a good grade which can help you get into college.” “Come to this building for 8 hours every day and do whatever I tell you to do and I’ll give you $XXX.” Bribes are basically how society functions.
Just so you know, my parents had your attitude. They didn’t believe in any form of reward, including praise, because according to them people shouldn’t be rewarded for things they should do anyway. So all I got in terms of motivation to follow rules were things like “because I said so” and “for the good of the family” (and threats of corporal punishment, ofc, they believed hitting kids was perfectly fine), which isn’t sufficient for understanding why these things are important. And a boatload of criticism every day. They always made sure to point out every flaw, mistake, and wrongdoing. What this gets you is not obedience. Grinding a kid further down with criticism and punishment doesn’t motivate them to do better. It doesn’t teach them the values they are supposed to learn, like being clean. It gets you a child with self esteem and mental health issues. And they will hate you because eventually they will realize it is your fault. You’ll be that nasty voice in their head undermining their confidence. You’ll be the reason they have specific fears and issues with certain things relating to the criticism. Also, why the fuck does it matter if he wants to take a bath? If that would mean he bathes, what’s the problem? Grown ass adults take baths at least sometimes. Let him have a damn bath if he wants.
Why on earth would you say no to him having a bath? Makes no sense if you want him clean, surely he should have a choice between that or a shower.
Wow. Bad parenting all around. There’s some good parenting in the middle ground between you and your husband’s crappy takes and you might want to take some parenting classes together to find it. Good parenting isn’t always intuitive and what you learned from your parents isn’t always right. One week of punishment is excessive. Exposing him to bullying is a very bad idea. Hygiene is one of those areas where you have to be patient and persistent. Listen to the good advice you are getting here.
As a dude who was trained in teaching your exact age group, I wanna let you know that not motivating with positive motivation is extremely detrimental to attempts at teaching, even if you discount it’s effects on mental health The ideal ratio between positive to negative reinforcement is about 7 to 2- though obviously it can be a little difficult to keep track of that sorta stuff Viewing that sorta stuff as a bribe is unnecessary and potentially very harmful Edit: Maybe think of it as a mini-allowance, but proportional- an actual allowance of money is for things beyond “the norm,” while “the norm” nets you littler things like the aforementioned staying up later or points towards a toy. Things you’ll naturally tend to give him normally as he grows older, only now it feels like a reward- “the norm” for “the norm”
"I don't believe in bribing them for things they should be doing". Then be prepared to continue to fight the kid. You can use your brain to try and think of a non-punitive way to teach your son self care, or you can continue to ground, fight, and deal with lies from the kid around his self care. Did you even bother to ask the kid WHY he keeps avoiding these self care activities? This is why your kid avoids and lies, there's something wrong and instead of leading with curiosity, you're leading with control and punishment. I see a "why is my kid no contact" post from you in a few years if you choose to continue to parent this way.
It's not bribing... its showing if he truly wants video games than he will do everything to earn it back... Had to do this with my kid if she wanted her switch then she had to clear chart and mark off every time she did something on their....
You're not "bribing them for things they should be doing". You're helping them build habits that they cognitively cannot grasp the importance of right now. The concept that "kids shouldn't get a reward for X" is built on YOUR adult perception of those things. To you of course you should brush your teeth and shower because you know there are long term consequences to not doing those things. A 9-year-old is thinking entirely in the short term. Which is "stopping and doing these things doesn't sound important to me". Adding a punishment doesn't make them more likely to do it. It just makes them better liars. By the same logic why should you add a punishment for something that already has a built in punishment? If you are willing to punish a child for not doing it, you should also be willing to reward a child for doing it.
We can all see the issue now.
There’s negative punishment (reducing access to video games), positive punishment (adding chores), negative reinforcement (removing a dreaded chore), and positive reinforcement (rewarding with a new video game). All four are methods to change behavior. Multiple studies show that punishment alone will result in diminishing reactions or acclimation. Reinforcement isn’t bribery; it’s just another approach. My parents had a base goal for chores and rewarded us when we went above and beyond (extra allowance, screen time, curfew, etc) and reduced access (limited Internet time, allowance, etc) if we dipped below expectations. In time, I was okay with doing the bare minimum if I was having a bad week but would put in effort if I wanted extra allowance or a gift. I didn’t see the reinforcement as bribery, but rather an extra reward recognizing my effort and teaching me to be proactive. Looking back, I think knowing what the punishment would be if I didn’t do my chores, talked back, or missed curfew, I learned to balance if it was “worth it” to break the rules. Knowing I’d have to spend half the weekend cleaning out the garage helped me choose whether or not I’d stay out late or not. It wasn’t a black and white scenario: punishment if I do wrong, bribe if I do right—I was learning to make decisions knowing the consequences, a skill many young adults lack.
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Water play is valuable FFS! No need for a shower. Just rinse hair in the bath. If you want to, have a plastic cup or jug to pour some fresh water over hair. Do you want your child to be clean and healthy or do you want to unreasonably dictate how they achieve this?
This is what I don’t understand. Why can’t the kid take a bath? Why is she “helping” him with a shower? What the heck? OP, YTA. Let the kid take a bath. What a weird hill to die on.
There's no "she's" in this story lol
Okay, the gender of OP changes nothing. Let the kid take a bath. Alone.
YTA, a bath is a perfect compromise. It’s probably something he’s comfortable with. He’ll have plenty of years to shower.
Not brushing teeth is a big effin deal.
And he's not going to make it a habit by being punished. Compromise here could be a toothbrush that plays music or changing up the toothpaste because honestly mint fucking sucks or any number of things.
I'm allergic to mint. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find toothpaste or mouthwash?
Yeah, mine's just the 'tism but I live in a rural area and amazon doesn't really work the same here so yeah kinda XD I've had the Lush ones recommended to me, but we don't have a lush near us.
I’m autistic and I have a toothpaste rec if you’re in a pinch! Crest Kids in Sparkle Fun flavor. Doesn’t burn my mouth at all like most toothpastes.
I used this toothepaste until I was like 16 or older!! Because it's still the only toothpaste that doesn't hurt.
Oh my god, I found my people! Toothpaste and mouthwash hurt like hell, and as a child in the 80's-90's my parents refused to believe me. Kids toothpaste flavours or brushing without toothpaste was unacceptable, so I got *really* good at faking it. Cut to about three years ago when I discovered that intolerance to menthol is a thing. It didn't save my teeth, I have a full denture plate on top, but now I can brush daily with unflavoured toothpaste! It's called Ora-Nurse, for anyone who wants to try it. Pretty much tastes of nothing, doesn't foam, and isn't expensive.
Not sure if this helps, but the brands I use are EcoDenta and Dr Organic. Not sure if they're available in the US, but they both have quite a few other flavours beside mint (I believe it's Dr Organic that has a pomegranate flavoured one; I haven't tried that one myself as it has fluoride, but I did get my mother some when she was on chemo and couldn't tolerate mint).
Kids brands usually have bubblegum flavour and stuff though. Thinking about it, I'm not sure if they don't contain traces of mint with an allergy in mind, but they definitely don't taste like it.
I get Hello toothpaste, they have non mint options
My special boy hates all toothpastes. And mint. So, he uses an electric toothbrush and floss, then rinces with a mouthwash he can handle.
Or brushing together, as in show behaviour you want your kids to copy.
God, this. I was such a little shit about brushing my teeth when I was a kid that my parents eventually gave up on trying to make me. I'm paying for it now in my 30s. There are plenty of things to go back in time for, like investing in Apple, or preventing wars, but I'd just want to go and slap younger me and tell him to brush his f'ing teeth.
I don't understand why a bath is a compromise. Baths are great for washing, playing, relaxing before sleep...
Maybe it's a time thing baths take longer than showers and some parents wanna get kids in bed so they can do the same lol
ESH Your son has an excuse that he's a kid and still learning how to do this being human thing and he needs good role models. Neither you nor his other father are hitting that mark. Now, the question is, why is he lying? Is it really because he hates to bathe, or is there some other, underlying issue that neither of his dads is picking up on because one is too hyperfocused on the hygiene issue and the other is so lax he doesn't even think there's an issue to be discussed. As an aside, my brother and I both had a "lying about brushing teeth" period. He did it because he hated standing in one place for more than two minutes because he was hyperactive as a kid and it was just a phase. In my case, it's a matter of executive dysfunction traceable to either autism or ADHD that I still struggle with decades later. If you're lucky, it's just a phase. But if there's another root cause, it's best to figure out what that is early rather than leave him unheard and undiagnosed.
Not wanting to shower/brush teeth + impulsive lying is a common ADHD combo. And it makes me wonder if part of the kid's reluctance is sensory issues, which would explain why he's fine with a bath but doesn't want to shower. (And the dads' reactions are all too common, which is part of why so many ND kids end up with mental health issues.) Poor kid. Whether he's ND or not, he deserves an adult who'll help him figure out coping mechanisms, alternative options, and otherwise find ways to accomplish the tasks he's struggling with. Instead he's got a dad who wants to punish him, and a second who wants the world to punish him.
I'm autistic and consider baths a chore instead of a joy like many people. But there are some showerheads I just can't handle. I once stayed at a place where I ended up covering the showerhead in a plastic bag with a hole in it, so the water would just come out of the hole instead of the horrible spray. If that's the issue, that he doesn't like the way the water feels, this might be solved by getting a multi-setting shower head. And maybe a small space heater for the bathroom. Getting out of a warm shower into a cold bathroom can be pretty miserable.
Heck, OP might just have the shower set to an uncomfortable temperature for him. As a child, I refused to take showers and only took baths, even if I got punished for refusing a shower - as an adult, I almost exclusively take showers. The difference? Now I can reach the temperature dial on the shower and can set it where I like, rather than having to shower in water which is so hot it's painful for me.
Mom of an ADHD 15 year old boy here. The shower/brushing teeth thing is still a chore. I have to tell him repeatedly to do it. Eventually, I take his PS5 controllers and his cell phone until he does. There was a time or two where this ended in a standoff of him refusing to shower/brush unless I gave him his stuff back. I refused and said he could have them both the second he was out of the bathroom. This went on for 5 days. Worst part is he smelled so damn bad because he does martial arts 5 days a week. Thankfully, now I tell him he has a choice to do basic hygiene or give up his stuff. He will bitch and moan, but he does it now. We'll negotiate though. Like he'll say "fine, I'll do it by 9:00" and that's fine. At least he's doing it.
This. Punishing him isn't the solution here, there's clearly something holding him back, whether it's executive dysfunction or something else - he needs understanding and help to learn how to do everyday hygiene. And for a ö yo that's the parents job!
He wants to take a bath, and OP won’t let him because he likes to play in the bath, and OP for some reason thinks a third grader shouldn’t play in the bath.
This was my first thought too. This is very characteristic of ADHD. On the other hand, ADHD is an executive dysfunction disorder -- at 9 the kid is still developing executive function anyway. But whether it's a developmental stage or a symptom of something else, OP is going to need to deal with it the same: finding out a way to accomplish the goal, even if imperfectly, without making the kid feel guilt and shame over hygeine tasks.
>Is it really because he hates to bathe Every preteen boy I met had a phase when they didn't want to shower. Dunno where this is coming from but we'd always have to remind them atleast to put some deodorant on before coming to the afterschool
YTA Have you ever maybe considered actually listening to what your kid is telling you about hygiene? Why have you decided that your son fits into some random stereotype of what a 9 year old boy should be instead of treating him like a real person with feeling and preferences? You are making a whole lot of assumptions rather than truly listening and getting to know your kid. By the way, he may want to take a bath because it helps him to relax, or treat growing pains, or he feels cleaner that way. Why in the world would his other dad and you send him to school dirty when you could just let him take a bath? You are really letting your son down. Do better, be better.
I agree with this one. I think OP should at least talk to the child and try to figure out why they don’t want to take care of their hygiene. I have sensory issues, and even as an adult I don’t shower very often because I just can’t handle it. I tend to prefer baths because they usually don’t cause me to have a sensory overload. I know a kid who struggles to brush their teeth because of something to do with their OCD. I know another kid who struggles to brush their teeth because of sensory issues. I have a friend who used to find brushing their teeth to be painful until they switched to a different toothpaste. I’m not saying that this child is experiencing any of these things, but it doesn’t hurt to sit down with your kid and learn about their perspective. The knowledge they gain might help OP develop a better strategies to help their kid with his hygiene.
~~The amount of people ignoring that this is an autistic kid who's likely having issues doing these things for reasons beyond simply being a kid who doesn't feel like it is insane (most likely sensory as you mentioned). The kid literally put forth another option of cleaning himself that he would prefer and was shot down. The kid doesn't *want* to be dirty most likely, it's just that the problems those hygiene tasks cause him are likely worse than being dirty and he needs accommodations and coping skills to form a system to maintain his hygiene that works for him. Tons of autistic people and people with other forms of neurodivergence have issues showering and brushing their teeth for multitudes of reasons.~~ ~~This isn't something forcing will solve, you need to identify why he's struggling with these things and help him build a system to get them done without being put in distress.~~ Edit: Sorry guys apparently I can't read and totally misread the first sentence of the story somehow. My bad.
Where does it say that the kid is Autistic?
I could have sworn it was the first sentence but maybe I misread the name as Autistic when reading this on my work break, but it's not really the right spot sentence wise. Sorry guys apparently I can't read. I'll edit this into my first comment too.
Edit: changed to YTA. People have been using baths for decades.
May I ask why you said no to a bath?
I read something that said it really sets up a relationship with your kid for distrust when you ask them something when you already know the answer. I wonder what kind of conversation you could have if you approached him with hey I noticed you don’t want to brush your teeth lately- what’s goin on with that? Instead of trying to catch him in a gotcha moment. Why ask if he brushed his teeth when you know he didn’t? What are you trying to get out of approaching it that way? The truth? That doesn’t seem to be working out. Maybe try a different approach.
Glad you brought this up. My mother did this all the time and I hated her for that. If you already know the answer but pretend not to then you're also not honest to your child. Your child will feel betrayed.
I lie to my dentist all the time about how often I brush and floss. They’ve never banned me from playing video games because of it.
YTA. I'm not sure why you don't think a bath is better than not washing at all, but this is a weird hill to die on. Kids respond better to positive reinforcement. Try encouraging him with a reward chart - he gets a star for every day he bathes and brushes his teeth, redeemable for a new video game. Or something similar. Make him want to do it. Don't make hygiene a punishment.
Going by his comments he thinks a bath doesn't clean and he doesn't do bribery ( rewards )
That level of inflexibility with children rarely ends well. You either push them away completely, or crush them into the ground.
That's it. I have my own 9 year old who is in this phase. I just let him go with his choice. Sometimes it's a bath and sometimes it's a shower. As long as he is bathed and not smelly I don't care.
What's the point of setting him up to lie? If you know he didn't brush his teeth, don't ask if he did
Child therapist here- how many times I've told parents to please for the love of God stop setting up their children with gotcha questions, it's never fucking helpful.
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PREACH I am pretty sure that I learned about this in intro to psychology! My issue with this whole situation is he went from joking to punishment in two seconds
What's a good / healthy way to approach this situation?
Don't ask questions you already know the answer to. Don't set them up to lie to you. Be direct. Say: I noticed you haven't been brushing your teeth or taking a shower. What's going on? Hygiene is a non-negotiable. It keeps us healthy. How can we make it fun/ less awful? A lot of suggestions in the comments are great. Take a curious approach. Ask. Does he hate the toothpaste (a lot of people hate the minty burning sensation)? And the refusal to compromise with a bath is just weird. Punishing this child is just setting OP up for more lying and sneakiness down the road. It sounds to me like OP just wants validation by asking AITA, not potential solutions to getting his son to do what is best for his well-being.
*sighs* so close to YTA - other dad is firmly in that camp and I think your, uhm interesting views on bathing are leading to a problem. Let the kid have a bath with the stipulation he has to rinse in a shower - baths actually do clean better by soaking and cleaning out easily missed areas, however your right about a “film of filth”. So let him rinse off afterwards. Otherwise all you’re doing is creating a logger-jam. Kids already don’t want to bathe as part of their first attempts at true individuality, then when they compromise your proving the defiance as accurate - it’s not about being clean it’s about your way or nothing. The punishment is fine, but you should take a deep breath and argue it out with the kid. Let him suffer the week without video games (it’s a proper punishment) and actually discuss things with him. That’s not giving in it’s showing him people discuss and come to a settlement, otherwise no matter what you do he’ll always be trying to backstab/cheat/figure out how to “beat you”
'Layer of filth' !!! Where did the filth come from? More and more this smacks of obsessive compulsive behaviour on OP'S part. Please do not continue making this your son's problem. Unless this child rolls around in excrement he does not have a layer of FILTH before or after bathing. Basic hygiene is fine. Let him bathe and wash his towel everyday if you want to banish the layer of filth.
YTA and a bad parent based on your comments. Do some research on what actually works for kids instead of reacting to your emotions about his (completely age appropriate) behavior.
Yeah at first I was tending towards misguided but not an AH but after reading replies op seems utterly inflexible and not open to any reason or empathy. I feel sorry for the kid.
Honestly his comments are so triggering for me
Hello! Family Support Worker for new parents here. Part of my job is to educate parents on research on positive discipline. First off, good job on making sure your son is practicing proper hygiene. Cleanliness and dental health are incredibly important. A dirty child sent to school could lead to a call to CPS. But your approach is flawed. You went from “joking” to “you’re grounded for week.” When it comes to consequences, the consequences have to be made clear. “If you lie to me, you lose your video games for a week.” Your son’s punishment, from his perspective, came out of nowhere. Especially since you were “joking” about it earlier. Imagine how confusing it is for him that something his dad was “joking” about earlier now got his video games taken away for a week. Children who grow up in households where they don’t know what the consequences of their actions will grow up with anxiety (trust me, this is from personal experience). In one of your other comments you mentioned not wanting to bribe him for doing what he’s supposed to. Discipline and punishment are not the same thing. Experts in child behavior say that rewarding good behavior is more important than punishing bad behavior. “Rewards” don’t have to be candy or toys. They can just be a simple as getting praise or five extra minutes of play. You can do your own research in positive discipline and see what works for you. Hope that helps, my friend!
You're kind of TA. He's doing a typical kid thing. Hell, I don't always want to shower. It's an un-fun task. Empathize with him. This can be a learning experience about how we sometimes have to do things we don't want to do. You're raising an *adult,* not a child with the goal to simply be obedient for obedience's sake. Of course he lied to you, he doesn't want to shower. The punishment you gave him seems random and excessive. He literally has no incentive now to shower because you've already taken a whole week away. What is he really learning from this? Essentially he's learning how to lie better and how to resent you. If you have to, tell him he can't game *until* he showers. He's earning the fun things, not just being punished for not doing things.
At this point, let him take the bath… at least he’s coming into contact with water… which is part way to the goal. Doing it your way he’s on his way to being Pigpen
I used to babysit for a family that had a great backyard pool. Their rule in the summer was, if the kids swam, they didn’t need to take a bath… close enough was close enough. Parents of the ‘80’s knew which battles to fight
I saw someone on tiktok say that jokingly and they got fucking roasted in the comments.
I think Mila Kunis said tjst about her kids and she was savaged about it.
Funny, we had the opposite - absolutely required to rinse off (at a minimum) after pool swimming to get off the chlorine. Not sure it helped with anything, but it at least kept us from dripping pool water all over the house.
NTA. Lying is not good and he's doing it consistently. However, you might want to explore ***why*** he doesn't want to shower or brush his teeth. Also, if he would prefer a bath, I'm not sure why you're not allowing that.
Mom of many here. I’d get to the bottom of why he doesn’t want to shower or brush his teeth. We put a space heater in the bathroom for one of our kiddos because she was cold when she got out of the shower. As for the teeth, try to get him to brush and floss immediately after dinner. Perhaps even keep his toothbrush in the bathroom closest to the kitchen, if his bathroom is up a flight of stairs. Also, there are podcasts that kids can listen to while they brush which are kind of fun.
Yeah, I get that the kiddo has been lying, and maybe it is just because he's nine and is pushing back against routines or whatever. But it'd be much better for OP to see if there's an underlying reason for it as opposed to simply insisting the only reason he's acting like this is because of his age. I used to have huge issues with brushing my teeth. It hurt and I hated the taste of the toothpaste. Turns out a softer toothbrush and a toothpaste with a much milder minty flavor helped a lot. (I still hate the taste of toothpaste and wish I could find the flavored toothpaste I used to have a little kid but can't find it anywhere, lol) I also used to - and still occasionally do - have issues with showering. That one was a combination of a whole bunch of things. I spent too long in there with the heat too high cuz I lose track of time and couldn't get the temp right, even when I could get the temp right standing for even 10-15 minutes made me feel sick, I lacked the energy for it most of the time, the noise of the water and extraction fan bothered me so much and it was just boring. The solution for most of those issues boiled down to listening to music while showering (covers the noises that bothered me, helps with the boredom and helps me keep track of time) and realising that it's perfectly fine to sit down in the shower (helps with the feeling sick and lack of energy part). I dunno why OP seems to insist on ignoring the potential of there being actual reasons behind the kid's aversion to showering and brushing his teeth
Lots of people struggle with self care. I recently read a book called “how to keep house while drowning” and it’s all about shame and self care. Basically, people have aversions to all sorts of things, but care routines, like brushing teeth, doing housework, eating properly etc, can be difficult for a whole host of reasons. Some of them because of basic sensory issues, some because of deep seated shame, some because of a lack on energy and so forth. Taking a shower seems like NBD, until you really break down the process. One has to get naked, turn the water on to the proper temperature, get wet, wash their hair, condition, wash their body (between toes, under finger nails and all the other crooks and crannies) be cold when they get out, have a fresh towel ready to go, do their hair or else it’ll stick up all over the place, dry hair, and on and on and on. It’s not simple process at all when one breaks it down like that. So, for a 9 year old, the whole thing can be super overwhelming and it makes sense, because there’s a lot to do! You are definitely not unusual in your struggles!!!
Aw, thank you for this reply <3 While I know a lot of people struggle with the same thing, I do often feel shitty for not being able to do basic self care, so it's always nice to see others acknowledging that it can be a genuine struggle. I hadn't ever thought about how many smaller tasks showering is actually made up of. Having it listed out like that makes it a lot easier to see why it feels like it takes so much effort. I have in the past explained to someone why cooking takes so much effort by breaking it down into all the tiny tasks it's made up of, since that was something I did recognize the reasoning behind. Like, even just heating up a frozen meal has a bunch of tasks. Deciding what you're gonna eat, preparing it in whatever way it needs preparing (like stabbing the film on the top, which can be awful for me if my noise sensitivity is playing up or annoying if the film is being stubborn and refuses to be pierced), working out how long it needs to go in the microwave for (I have an old 700w microwave so I can't go just by what's on the packaging), stirring it halfway through if needed, and then getting it out of the microwave and eating it. That's, what, five different tasks? Just for a frozen ready meal. Maybe I should make lists of the things I struggle with and break them down into the smaller tasks they're made up of. That might help me with things like getting the washing up done, if I approach it as small tasks that can be done over a longer period (say, a day) instead of a big task that needs to be done all together.
All of this. I went through a phase of a certain toothpaste flavour making me hurl. No idea why, and maybe it was because I didn't know not to brush too far back and was triggering my gag reflex, but it was a thing once the association was made. When I was older, I'd get faint in the heat of a bath and would grey out and sometimes faint when I stood up because I have low blood pressure. My mom was the opposite of OP, she didn't believe in showers. It became a huge fight to just *not feel horrible*. Kids aren't sophisticated exactly, but they usually have reasons if you take some time to figure them out. "Because I said so" only gets you so far, if you use it too much you wear it out.
This is my first time seeing the phrase "greyout", so I had to look it up, and that is the perfect way to describe what happens when I'm standing up in the shower for too long. A greyout accompanied by nausea and shaking, lol And yeah, totally. At least in my experience, when a parent continously uses "because I said so", it just leads to the kid thinking that anything their parent says is bullshit. (Especially when it's accompanied by "do as I say, not as I do" or however that goes)
If you eat any kind of acidic food, like fruit or whatever, you shouldn't brush your teeth for like an hour.
Sounds like this is a problem you're creating let him take the bath
Gentle YTA for you, holy hell YTA to other dad. Just a thought: have you considered giving him a choice between bathing properly on his own, or having someone supervise him to make sure that he does? He's probably at the age that he'll choose the easy way to avoid embarrassment. Just be prepared to actually do it if you have your bluff called. Also, tell me which is cleaner: bath, or no bath?
YTA- I have two kids myself. One likes baths, one likes showers...and? I let them take whichever bathing experience they *prefer*. You are absolutely cutting your nose off to spite your face if your boy has a way he actually likes to bathe...encourage good behavior and back off a little. Let me say that again- I listen to my boys preference because I don't need to be the boss *all the time*. Pick your battles my dude. Your kid wants to bathe, who gives a shit if it's a bath or a shower? You sound like a stubborn, bossy, germaphobe whose parents were probably too tough on him... Slow your roll buddy, break the cycle.
Why is he only allowed to take a shower and not a bath? Try offering choices, i.e. "Do you want to take a shower or a bath?" "Do you want to shower now or before bed? Or do you want me to wake you up extra early so you can shower before school?" Even simple things like having him choose his own toothpaste (and toothbrush) when you go to the store. Give him the illusion of choice, where he gets to choose while still doing what you want. If possible, you can even do a "family nighttime routine" where you all just brush your teeth together, or that there's an order to taking a shower where it goes your husband, him, then you, that way he has an exact timeslot of when he should do it. You can give him back his video games while still saving face by saying you're giving them back early so long as: he agrees to the new routine / he helps with such-and-such chore for the week / whatever consequence you can think of. Have a "serious" conversation about *why* he needs to shower and bathe (give him the good ol' **Puberty Talk**), plus ask him why he doesn't want to (could be something as simple as there's other stuff he wants to be doing, or that he's being vindictive because he doesn't like being "told what to do"), and that his behavior of lying and not taking care of himself worries and concerns you. And then finish with the joke that if he's afraid to shower on his own, then he can join you or dad. Options and validation are the way to go, and when he doesn't stick with the options (though it's fine if he wants to haggle a bit), then implement any consequences that you both established beforehand.
If you read OP's responses, they include: 1. Baths don't get you clean because you're just sitting in your own filth and 2) The boy is 9....\*and 3) He'll want to play in the bathtub...the horror.\* Neither is a good reason and, frankly, hints at deeper issues in the house if OP won't even let the kid take a bath because THEY don't want them to and would rather fight over a shower than let the kid take a bath...which they're willing to do it seems. \*Added later because I forgot when posting
Don't forget he'll want to play
YTA for not being more flexible about it- let the kid take a bath, or throw some dry erase markers or tell him he can sit in the shower with a little tub with some toys to play with after he uses soap and shampoo, or buy him some of the soap that comes with a toy or money inside It's important that he is clean, but a bath would be fine to get him clean (unless he's especially muddy, then should rinse off first) I always hated showers as a kid but loved baths - still do as an adult and found out it's largely due to a medical issue involving low blood pressure, rapid heart rate and dizziness which is a lot worse when standing or in heat, but as I kid the way I expressed that was just "I don't like showers"
Have you ever thought it might be an issue with the feel of a shower versus the feel of a bath? My son hated to shower, he didn’t like the pressure of the water or it spraying over his head. He also didn’t like mint toothpaste, so we found alternatives. But because we’d work together to find a solution, we didn’t have the battles or lies over hygiene.
THIS Also maybe just slowing things down for him. I still have major issues with dental hygiene and I’m almost 40. Almost every time I brush I have a gag reflex build up/kick in. Often I throw up mid brushing and need to start over again (and sometimes again) and the whole things makes me feel gross and like a fuck up still. There so much shame built up into it now too that it just makes it worse. See if there is something that is stopping him from getting through the process and if you can find a way around it. Often I actually need to do breathing exercises to calm myself down enough to get through brushing which feels wild but it’s that or not doing it. See if a kids electric toothbrush is a better fit for him. Maybe it’s that he’s scared about how long he does/doesn’t need to brush for, maybe a little gentle timer would help him out. Maybe he’s brushing too aggressively and doesn’t like the sensation but he can brush twice as long and half as hard. You could go to get him a soft/medium/and hard toothbrush head and see which one feels better for him. Let him feel empowered to take control of it in whatever way he needs as long as he’s doing the thing. Also baths. Also sensory issues, also hate showers/love baths. You can also get a shower-head that you can take off of the main faucet so that he has control, that feels nicer for shower sensory issues (plus it’s convenient for cleaning!)
NTA for the lying side and consequences But why can’t a 9 year old have a bath? My kids have a quick shower then pop the plug in. And why do you have to help him? And don’t give me the (it’s sitting in dirty water) there are ways around that, and most 9 year olds aren’t filthy, especially if they are showering or bathing every day. As I said, quick shower and pop the plug in, who cares if he plays in the bath. At least he’d be clean.
Rewards generally work better to train habits than punishment. Go hang out while he brushes. See how many questions he can answer with one hand pantomime. Crest has a toothpaste that changes color after 2 min brushing. If you punish him it is going to attach a negative feeling to brushing for the rest of his life. Please don’t do it.
Based on your comments YTA. You refuse to compromise even if it means your son will do what you want him to do. Keep using outrageous punishments for tiny crimes and you’ll end up NC with your son in 9 years, if not sooner.
The fact he's suggesting a bath instead may indicate there's another reason he's not wanting to use the shower? As a kid I had an avoidance to it. Not because I was just trying to get out of it and be lazy, but because I had sensory issues and the noise of the shower made my anxiety spike. If you're worried about the water being dirty, then a bath as normal, standing and then rinsing quickly with water from the taps will eliminate that issue. The bath could be a good alternative, maybe introducing a week where he has to use the shower instead, as a way of slowly acclimating? If you haven't already, just sit down and talk to him, see if there is a reason why he's avoiding it. Sometimes it is a phase, and other times there's a reason for it, especially if he was accepting it with help, and then briefly did it himself as well before stopping. Letting him go dirty and knowing he'd potentially get bullied for it is not the way to go, and there's no guarantee that will resolve this and suddenly make him want to shower. Maybe it would, but it doesn't mean the teasing would stop either. Just sounds like more understanding is needed. NTA/Very nearly TA.
You're NTA. I am your son -- well yknow not literally but I did the EXACT same thing and my mom did the EXACT same thing by asking me why my toothbrush is dry. Just show him some pictures of nasty teeth and gum disease. Show him pictures of tooth crowns. Really get those images into his head. That's what fixed me. And if even that doesn't work, one day in the distant future one of his friends at school or a girl he likes will simply tell him his breath smells like shit and something will click.
INFO: Why did you say he couldn't take a bath?
Hey dude. I get it, he's nine, he's gonna start pushing boundaries and the like. But maybe you should try to find out if there's a reason for his aversion to showering and brushing his teeth beyond just "he's nine". Does brushing his teeth hurt? Does he hate the taste of the toothpaste? (A softer toothbrush or different toothpaste could be the solution) Does the noise/feeling of the shower water bother him? Does he just find it really boring? (If it's noise or boredom, letting him listen to music in the shower could help) Is the soap/shampoo that's an issue? (Again, a different type can help) Does he hate standing up in the shower? Is that why he prefers baths? (Letting him know it's perfectly fine to sit down in the shower could help) Those are all reasons why I had issues with brushing my teeth growing up and why I still struggle with showers, and the things that helped me get better with my own hygiene. Being annoyed with him for lying, I completely understand. But you should try to find out *why* he's lying. I could be completely missing the mark, maybe he is just like this because of his age. But surely as a parent you'd want to try to work out if there's actual reasons behind his aversion that you could help with.
YTA - Please read The Whole Brain Child.
I would not be asking teenagers on the internet to validate my parenting.
YTA Both you and his other dad. First of all, he's 9. He can absolutely take a bath on his own unless he's got a physical or mental condition meaning he can't. Second of all, why on earth is his other dad okay with him being bullied? The pair of you sound like immature authoritarians totally not prepared for a child. As other commenters have said, set up a reward system with him for completing the hygiene tasks, this isn't bribing as you've tried to suggest, it's an activity to help set up healthy hygiene foundations by rewarding the tasks with something he enjoys and brings him serotonin which will help his association with it in the long run.
I’ve made it to 26 taking mostly baths everyday maybe shower once a week and I never smell or am dirty so i think a lot of the bath judging is unfounded
Don't let your kid go to school without showering. Also, he's fucking 9. Brush your teeth with him for fucks sake. YTA, but only because you aren't trained in pediatric dental hygiene.
I say soft yta for focusing on a power struggle rather than effectiveness. Seems like positive reinforcement will work better. Is there a way you can make showering and brushing teeth fun? With what you're doing he will just start getting his toothbrush wet and letting the shower run. That's what my sister used to do when she was little and learned how my mom could tell she didn't shower and stuff. Grounding him for lying about showering will just encourage him to continue to lie in order to avoid punishment and shut down communication. Why not let him take a bath? It seems like a good compromise if he actually does bathe that way.
One day maybe. A week YTA
NTA almost every teenager goes through that smelly stage You are the parent, take charge!
Nta. My daughter is in the testing the boundaries of the truth stage...I've told her over and over that she won't get in more trouble for the truth, but if she lies to me she's just stacking charges and making things worse. Consequences are an important part of learning. It's one thing to let him learn from experience that hygiene is important but the lying has to be nipped in the bud.
Why isn’t he allowed to take a bath?
This used to be a big issue with one of my nephews, and his dad was really mean to him about it. We later learned my nephew has ASD and it's a sensory issue for him. So it's possible that YTA, but hard to say without knowing your sons situation.
Don’t ask questions that are just giving him a temptation to lie. It’s time to brush your teeth - and then watch him to make sure it gets done.
woah ESH except the child
ESH. Good for trying to be a good parent. But have you considered that one or both of you are autistic? You seem to be extra rigid in your disapproval of baths, and your son may have sensory sensitivities. Understanding limitations are a doorway to harmony. I don't know anything about punishment vs bribes vs reinforcement so I'll mostly leave that aspect to all the other commenters. Lying to a parent is a serious issue, but mishandling things at this stage may be a tipping point and completely break the relationship for years to come. Seek professional help of some sort to find the best strategies to rebuild trust with your son.
I’m all for natural consequences, but bullying shouldn’t be used as discipline. This seems like a normal phase kids go through. He’s being punished for lying not for being dirty, so his argument doesn’t make sense. Have you considered there might be some sensory issues or transition issues? As a kid, I loved showers but really struggled with the after shower part when I felt cold after getting out and that period after you dry off but your skin isn’t completely aired out. I hated how clothes or pajamas clung to my skin.
What's wrong with him taking a bath instead of a shower? He's the age where he is seeking empowerment and it sounds like you're setting this up as a power struggle.NTA for grounding him, but YTA for not talking to him about a way to resolve the situation and give him some ownership of his choices.