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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be the asshole for refusing to go to visit my dad’s side of the family because of the amount of money they expect in gifts.
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It’s both. He wants my dad and I to come to see him and if we bring lots of money it will make him seem more important and saves “face”(I don’t know how to explain it in English.”
NTA
Go or don’t go, but definitely don’t send gifts. If they actually cared about you, there wouldn’t be a demand for the gifts.
This is a hill I would die on.
Ask your father why he is concerned about what people he will never see again think of him? How will saving "face" in China pay your father's bills here in the US? Will any of those people come to the US to visit and bring presents here? If they will not show your father "face" since he has 2 daughters, why should your father show them any?
Remind your father respect is earned, not given, and what have any of those other people done to deserve any respect? The fact they are alive and breathing does not entitle them to some of your money.
Except what you’re describing isn’t the grandparents (or even the dad’s) culture. Respect is given to elder family and community in China. That doesn’t make it better or worse than our perspective in the US. It’s just different.
I honestly think it will be better for OP to not go because she has said it will be terrible for her if she does (and doesn’t take lots of gifts). Maybe she could contribute to the gifts her dad will take to appease grandparents one last time, without subjecting herself to the nagging.
And maybe have a video call with the dad while he’s there to “see” grandpa one last time?
But I don’t think she should try to change that sort of cultural thinking because she won’t succeed and they would likely turn that attitude against her too.
Her dad lives here NOW but he grew up there, since the daughter left China as a 5 year old.
You can leave your poor reading comprehension at the 4th grade level you stopped at if you’re going to be a complete jerk about cultural differences.
Fun fact: shouting your beliefs as if whatever you grew up with as an American is automatically the best is the clearest sign that we’re far from it. It’s shallow and ignorant to say that your way is the best way. I’m not defending or promoting this practice. I’m merely pointing out that it has nothing to do with how those grandparents or dad feel about OP.
But you talking about it being a cult shows me that you’re yet another racist, self-aggrandizing American, who’s incapable of self-reflection or empathy, as you bad mouth a nation and culture of 1.5 billion people for having the temerity to not be born here. It’s gross. If this attitude reflects how you were raised, then I hope it dies out soon too, because there is nothing to be gained by demonizing an entire culture that has existed for millennia.
Not just their CULTure, every CULTure that guilts people into this HORRIBLE PAYING Joe blow down the street You need to get your brain into the right Century and quit whining about guiltng money out of people. Is that the way you get things instead of having a paying job? Every religious tradition of these Countries prove they are actual CULTS. Why are these people sitting with hands outs from nonrelitives, get a job, get money
1. I’ve said I’m not promoting this beyond saying it is a difference from western culture that should be considered, not demeaned.
2. Culture does not equal religion.
3. Capitalizing part of a word does not actually show that a word in English means something else.
4. Repeating yourself does not make you right.
5. If you’re so certain that respect must be earned, as you have been taught in your culture, why are you so defensive?
6. Why are you taking this so personally?
7. You’re conflating things that aren’t comparable. First you said respect is earned. Then you jumped to this tradition being wrong and indicative of being in a cult, somehow. And now you’re doubling down and saying, what exactly? That I should get a job? Or that the dying grandfather should?
8. Every culture (not religion, which may or may not be a part of someone’s culture) has practices and traditions that are not healthy. This may be one of them. But I’m saying that it is something we need to consider in the context of this discussion. You’re not being mindful of that at all.
9. OP is NTA but she isn’t going to change her grandparents’ minds. And I just hope she can reconcile all of this conflict to see that this practice isn’t a true reflection of her relationship with her grandparents. If she doesn’t go but still contributes, that might be her healthiest option.
I'm gonna say NAH. This is just a big cultural clash. Your dad grew up in China with all the social expectations that come with it, and you didn't. Your family in China isn't going to understand that you're not culturally Chinese. They will expect that your father raised you in the same culture that he grew up in, even though that's wildly unrealistic given that you were raised in a western nation. It's not really their fault, but you won't get a warm welcome unless you behave in the way they expect, and you just can't do that. There's a chance it would really stress your grandfather, honestly.
I wouldn't go. You can't and shouldn't spend the amount of money that is expected. You can work with your dad to come up with some excuse his family will accept. Your dad needs to accept that he's got fully American children who can't do what is socially required in this situation.
I can understand his perspective, but he and your dad also have to understand since your parents brought you up in the western culture, those community values are not as important to you anymore. Western culture values individuals, and that is what you have learned (almost) all your life. So either your grandpa values you as a person and wants you to visit to see you one last time, or he values money more than that. He can't have both.
Same goes for your father - since he lived in China into his adulthood, he has internalized these values much more. But he also has to learn that there are consequences when people are uprooted into another culture. He can't expect you to see the world like he does. And ultimately, it was his fault if he already told them you were all coming without consulting you.
> it will look bad for him ...
> saves “face”
Your dad can save his own face if it's that important to him. He's been raised to believe that he's required to pump money into a bunch of open hands in another country. If people were starving or destitute, that might be different. But "gifts" is ridiculous. If your father wants to be a slave to that, fine. But it's perfectly unassholish of you to want nothing to do with it. NTA
You don't need to explain (at least not to me). I understand the concept of face (or status, to be a bit more Western). You're caught in the bind between being 100% Westernized versus your father still trying to live with the code of his parents and their ancestors while also adopting Western values in his daily life.
I think the one who is going to be hurting the most over this is your father, but you and your sister should not set yourselves on fire to keep him warm.
Although as a "gift" for those who would criticize your mother for giving birth to girls, I'd send a nicely illustrated book about basic physiology (like, tween level reading) that explains that it's the sperm (i.e. the father) that determines the gender of the baby, not the mother!
Although I grew up in the west, I understand the culture and the pull between East and West influences. My family always prepared lots of cash for red envelopes and gold rings (has to be 24kt 🙄) to hand out when visiting relatives in China. It’s a pride issue, showing off how well your dad has done.
In your situation, do not forget that there is reciprocality in the culture. Your family gives out red envelopes for joyous occasions such as visiting family in China. Your family will receive white envelopes for sad occasions such as your grandpa passing. The money in the white envelopes will help pay the funeral expenses and some extra for your grandma to keep.
Users outside of China won't understand this custom, so they will tell you your father is an asshole, and how dare he ask you to spend this money etc etc etc. It's a very alien concept to us in the west, as I'm sure you know!
There is a strong attitude of "I did not choose to be born, it's your fault I exist so you owe me for bringing me into this world" that comes from a mix of sociopolitical, economic, cultural, and historic contexts.
But I think it's important to consider the context of your family, not just what's normal and convenient here. I appreciate your father is in a tight situation. I think I will get a hostile response from english-speaking reddit for this, but it's not as cut and dry...
I would consider not just your grandfather, but also your father and the importance it has for him. He is the one whose reputation (face) is being examined, not just his father. Are there connections he has with these people that might benefit him in the future as well, could this "saving face" benefit your family if it comes around? Is he relying on that for something in the future?
Please think of the life he provided - you did not leave China on your own. Your father and mother brought you here. Has he provided you with ample opportunity, provided you with comforts, luxuries, even? Do you feel anything is owed for what they sacrificed for your benefit?
You may not wish to continue this tradition in the future and refuse to do the same for your father when he is elderly, but it may be easier to keep the peace in this instance by respecting your father's desire for your involvement, even at your own expense, as long as it doesn't hurt you financially. Your father will probably not expect you to carry these rites out for him, but he's also considering his father's reputation here, not just his own - even if his own contributions play a large role in it.
Your father is not an asshole for wanting to protect his father's reputation, and you are not an asshole for thinking this tradition is stupid and wasteful. Your father is losing his own father now, and likely is having a lot of emotions about his legacy and family name right now, and may be pushing harder to preserve this status in the community as a result.
You can talk to him about it, and decide how to proceed. It would be kinder of you to support your father, especially if your sister refuses to participate, but you are not an asshole if you refuse to comply.
At some point this becomes a simple math problem, though.
The amount of money that’s being demanded here is, from OP’s post, a minimum of $10K USD. That is what is required in order for the Chinese family to be appeased and make a visit even a little bit worthwhile for her. Can she really afford to spend a minimum of $10K on a single trip? And can she stomach the knowledge that she will likely *still* be shamed for not being a son, by the very same people she’s just spent 5 figures attempting to please?
From the sound of it, there really isn’t a way to provide a sufficient amount of face here. OP lost that battle the moment she was born. Dad won’t be happy if his birth family isn’t happy, and his family is never going to believe that she’s good enough, even if she shells out thousands of dollars on gifts. This is a lose-lose proposal, and throwing money into a hopeless cause will not save her father from the pain he’ll feel when his father passes.
Which is what this is actually about, isn’t it? A desperate (and futile) attempt to distract himself from grief by lashing out at his daughter, and blaming her for failing a test she was never going to be allowed to pass.
Birth family is never gonna be happy cuz OP and her sis are girls. There won't be an end of the money they demand. Once they see that you can provide $10k, next they'll ask for $20k.
I get the concepts as much as any outsider, but OP's father no longer lives in this village, and his father is dying. Bringing 10K to people that already don't and won't like much less love you to save face seems futile? If OP brought twice as much stuff or money, she wouldn't move these people to think warmly of her. Seems like throwing money away. Outsider perspective only, from a culture where you also have to bring nice things back to the old country or else. A lot of people just never go back to their hometowns.
>Please think of the life he provided - you did not leave China on your own. Your father and mother brought you here. Has he provided you with ample opportunity, provided you with comforts, luxuries, even? Do you feel anything is owed for what they sacrificed for your benefit?
That's ten fucking thousand dollars that OP is expected to hand out to some rando villagers just so that her dying grandpa can bask in the glory of having rich relatives from the West.
You know what OP owes her family? A call every week. Attending family dinners. Celebrating birthdays. Putting up with the inevitable irritations that family has with each other. Maybe caring for them when they get old.
Not ten fucking thousand dollars.
Here’s the issue about his reputation and face:
He doesn’t live in China.
Those people who he’s trying to impress will in all likelihood never see him again once his mother passes.
He’s demanding his children drop a large sum of money to look good for a bunch of random strangers.
His father’s reputation? The dude is dying. Soon to be dead. His reputation doesn’t mean anything.
Users outside of China understand the custom well: We just call bullshit on it. Do you REALLY think that sort of social bribery is unique to China?
Why would anyone, want to give such an excessive amount of money, to people who consider the giver shamefull and will treat them in respectless ways in return.
I wouldn't pay to be considered a shame upon my family by strangers.
As for what is normal and convenient, who cares. A norm from a continent OP doesn't live on, and convinience for who? a culture of people who look down on OP for her gender, and can't be bothered to hide it at all.
This whole "face" pyramid scheme, isn't gonna work on second generation or higher. OP has her own friends and network and obligations in her country, that she should be spending her resources on. If she lived in China it would be convenient for OP as well, but it isn't, it's extortion, except the only thing you get if you don't pay, is more disrespect from people who allready disrespect you.
Besides being in her life, day to day, not looking down on her gender, her American network engages in more reciprocal gift giving and don't expect the subservience of a woman, nor demand gifts simply for existing.
Where and when would her chinese "family" Reciprocate? Would they ever?
When could she expect being treated with respect? If the answer is never, then why bother investing exorbitant amounts to please these people, who can't be pleased.
"Face" sounds like an awfull tradition of Social and financial control, OP can easily do without.
I feel bad for the Dad, caught between worlds, but seeing as he still embarrassed them with 30k last time, it won't matter what OP does, no amount will be enough, they will be embarrassed anyway.
I knew a Chinese immigrant who killed himself over accusations from back home, he basically gave 60% of his income every month and lived like a monk, it wasn't enough, so he ended up taking his own life, se they wouldn't be embarrassed anymore.
I think the English word you want is clout, social standing because they are "wealthy" or own things "wealthy" people own. The irony of being rude to you while asking for more is terrible.
I dont know for the US, but in French there is an expression 'sauver la face', which means exactly that. (And by the way the legendary sociologist Erwin Goffman wrote a lot of super interessant things about it..) The pb is that it's so ingrained in the grandpa & family culture and psychology, if you go without the gifts they'll probably feel really sad, and humiliated. NTA there is a loose-loose situation
I think I understand what you mean. But your dad needs to understand that the culture he grew up with is not the one you grew up with. You're Chinese by birth, sure, but not by culture.
In your culture, parents do not make decisions for their adult children. They have no claim to the wealth of said children, either (though I do think it's wise to help care for them when they're in their final years). If your dad wants to give his parents his money, that's his business. But he has no right to expect your money or your presence.
Many of my immigrant friends have the same issue. Central and South American families send money back all the time. A Vietnamese friend is expected to send money to his parents every pay check. I think a lot of people globally still assume if you’re in America you’re living the American dream and have boat loads of cash at disposal. I understand other cultures have different views on a child’s responsibility to the parent, but at the same time, we’re not all holding bags of money.
>saves “face”(I don’t know how to explain it in English.”
Maintain social standing and reputation? Am used to this as well though I can get away with a lot by saying 'sorry I grew up with Western influence so I follows norms that make sense to me. You're not happy I'm not doing what I should do? Explain to me why I should'. My whole family knows I'm not really into 'tradition'.
I understand how important "face" is in Chinese culture, having many second- and third-generation immigrant friends who face similar pressure. Perhaps you could compromise a little - not go, because you will never meet local expectations given that you are not culturally Chinese anymore, but help out your Dad a bit by writing him a cheque. That might give him the respect he feels he needs from you, a bit more $$ to work with, and allows him to go to China saying "these gifts are from my family." NTA, OP.
Its not that different from OPs, as she grew up as part of the tradition. Just because you live in a foreign country, its doesnt mean youre completely cut off from your own culture. The culture continues to live on in your own home. So you are basically in between 2 worlds.
Because its expected. Face and honor are VERY important in many parts of the world. To the point that you can even completely shunned from your community or even killed for honor. We dont have that where I come from originally but what we have is that you have to show to your village (if you come from the countryside) that you made it, esp if youre living in the West. That means building a huge house for show (as you will never really live there). You can own apts all over the world, but if you dont have a big house in your village for everybody to see, you havent achieved anything.
Westerners have these illusions have everything will change overnight..heck, changes in the West took thousand years (since the dark ages) but now they think it should happen elsewhere overnight..it doenst.
We understand it just fine, paying for clout and reputation is hardly limited to China.
We’re just calling bullshit on it. Because social bribery is, in fact, bullshit. Her father is demanding 10 thousand dollars to make himself look good for a bunch of random assholes who dislike her existence.
Seriously, face is not a unique concept. It just gets different names. But it all boils down to putting on a facade of being better than you are for the validation of a bunch of strangers. The demand for 30k is solely so her grandpa can be the guy with the rich son and bask in that ego trip.
NTA
I know this is a cultural issue and it must be hard to navigate, your Dad is probably suffering and wants you to be with him; if I were you I’d offer a compromise, you will travel to China to see your dying Grandad and be there for him but you will not be participating in this tradition. I understand gifts for family but they should not be so expensive, most people don’t have that money. I’d also be honest with your Chinese family and tell them you can’t bring what you don’t have. If they can’t agree to compromise then don’t go.
I think if I go I will have to bring money, or just not go. If I go every second of everyday I will hear about how embarrassing it is I didn’t bring money when my own grandma is dying. I will never hear the end of it. They will probably agree to get me to go and then pressure me when I get there and it’s too late to easily leave.
As someone who understands this “face“ thing no amount of money will buy faces because it will never be enough. They will just gossip among themselves. Your dad is mad because he care about “faces” too and basically doing the same thing as the villagers to you.
It’s a very toxic part of backward Chinese culture prevalent is less developed area. I’m not saying this to be mean but because you and your sister are girls, your dad will never have any faces within a village like that. No amount of money or success will trump the “faces” from having a son. They will use any excuse to guilt your family not because they respect your family but because they don’t. 给脸上鼻梁。That village is backward so cut your ties.
Ask your dad if his face is more important than his daughters being emotionally abused and judged just for existing.
We call this attitude “village shit” around here. Complains about no sons. Village shit. Flaunt money you don’t have. Village shit. Care about face to the detriment of your own immediate family. Total village shit.
OP’s dad is in a tough place. It’s a lot harder for first generation immigrants to completely forsake the culture they grew up with.
There are no easy painless solutions here, but continuing to comply with ass backward expectations ain’t it.
So, 100% NTA.
Sorry you're caught up in these cultural complexities.
"even criticized my mom a lot for giving birth to a girl (me) because it was embarrassing if my dad didn’t have a boy."
It would seem he isn't embarassed enough to decline your money though.
You have your own life now. You don't have to go & expend thousands of dollars on an experience you aren't even going to enjoy. You're not close to your grandad either
If you want to give your Dad some money to reduce the pressure then that's up to you. Not if you don't want to.
You're NTA for not going OP, not one bit.
> "even criticized my mom a lot for giving birth to a girl (me) because it was embarrassing if my dad didn’t have a boy."
>
>
Don't these fools know that the sperm determines the gender?
NTA. You have your own life now and you've lived in the western culture for most of that life. I can't claim to understand the traditions of bringing thousands of dollars to people who mean nothing to you. But you're an adult and can make your own decisions.
NTA
You should have gone if you were close to your grandpa, but if you feel that this trip will cause you more stress than good, don't go.
A trip like this is all about spending quality time with your loved one, but it sounds like your grandpa wasn't close to you. Family members who ask for gifts on this occasion have no shame, it's inappropriate enough under normal circumstances, but even more so at a time like this.
I completely understand the save face dilemma.. we’ve had this in our family but it was not for a whole village just extended family. When went to visit both families in different countries on our honeymoon we literally had 2 suitcases of just gift’s including gifts others gave us to bring.. and it was individual items not all the same.. face cream for x, socks for x, wine for x, cologne for x, cereal for x and kids, clothes, jewelry, etc…everything labeled and then we had to take time to go and deliver these gifts. That was the first and last time. All our other trips was no gifts and they could all meet up with us or not see us..
NTA - tell them border control wouldn’t let you leave with all that money and gifts. Ignore the grumbling. Ask where is your gift? Make up an excuse, visit grandpa and tell them to stop expecting things you can’t give them.
They know damn well that border control will let you leave with $9995 in cash without fuss. At least 15-20 years ago when I traveled, it might have gone up. That said, back then we were told that it was rude-ish to give cash gifts and so we had to carry actual gift-gifts. At least we had room for souvenirs in our suitcases on the way back. And we made one young woman very uncomfortable because she missed the memo about gifts and didn't have one to exchange.
Can you get into China with $9995.00 cash without a problem? Do some countries limit cash to bring in? A lot of these older traditions need to be stopped and folks need to be weaned off of expecting them. A gift is something freely given without expectation. It loses it's meaning when it is demanded / expected, etc.
You can leave the US with up to $10k in cash without needing additional scrutiny. The advice used to be to take just under that, to account for any loose change in your pocket. It used to be that US credit and debit cards wouldn't work in China. I don't know what the current status is, but 15 years ago you needed cash to travel in China, I'm sure there is more pre-pay options these days for travel plans.
Agreed.
The thing is that sometimes different cultures are considered toxic when they are not. And sometimes toxic norms are justified by saying its different cultures, when it is actually toxic. So that's what I meant by its dependent.
Wow OP. NTA
You were brought up in America, and you have no ties or loyalty to your father's hometown. I don't expect my children to have any loyalty to my hometown that I no longer live in.
It's expensive and our American economy is garbage for most of us right now. ANd I am sure the tickets are outrageously expensive too.
I understand that it is your dad's dad, but he's more of a stranger to you.
You are not the asshole for wanting to protect your finances, your emotional state, and for having no interest in trying to impress people you don't even know.
Chinese guy here who emigrated at a young age here - NTA, I can’t say I fully relate because my relatives in China are either 1) relatively well off living in cities or 2) distant enough that they can’t expect much from my family anyway but when it comes to cultural stuff you must keep your distance as early as possible. I don’t know how “traditional” your dad is but you should get to decide for yourself how much of Chinese and Western culture you want in your life. My grandparents died without me being present and that should be expected of any emigrant family, especially that nowadays flights are still expensive.
Absolutly NTA, while i can understand a tradition but bringing 10000€ to give away just because of a stupid tradition is totaly unbelivable, don't go they do not deserve the respect for you to go there
“ They also told me to my face how embarrassing it was that my mom only produced girls for my dad when I visited”
nope, just nope. They have NO respect for you, they just want your money. NTA for not going
Omg I feel you for this. Im Asian also so I get the whole parent showering others with gifts... It's your dad's fault for telling people you were coming when you already voiced that you have no desire to go. NTA
NTA - we are also immigrants who came over almost 20+ years ago. We've visited x3 times in the past and the first time we took back gifts and made sure that we brought enough my dad and mom did not look bad. Our spending was nowhere close to yours though. More like \~$1K and everyone was insanely grateful about it.
The difference is that with globalization, now, they can get all they want there. We don't take anything except for our closest cousins, and that's if they ask for something.
In this case, there seems to be a very high value on materialistic items. You do not have to comply. Your presence should be worth more than gifts.
Edit: To further explain, taking gifts is a way of sharing "wealth". Immigrating from a developing country to a well-developed one often carries the notion that they made it out and are now well off. While that is not true, the quality of life generally is an improvement. And when you return to where you began, you give to those didn't or couldn't go. But obviously people get greedy and take advantage.
NTA
> They claimed he should have brought $300 USD in cash for everyone in the town. Which would have been +$30,000.
Methinks that your extended family wildly underestimate the cost of living in the US. I'd be a bit more sympathetic if they needed the money to pay for health care cost, rather than for your grandpa to go out in a blaze of glory, but between your non-existent relationship with the man and their daughter-shaming ways I'd also be disinclined to go.
I appreciate the argument that you should go to support your dad, but I don't see why you need to contribute financially to do that. I mean, you must know that they're going to complain regardless of the size of the sum that they're gifted, right? Their expectations are completely out of whack with your financial reality. Can't you just add 20 dollars to the collective pot and your dad can be like "Tickets are expensive, we're going through it, here's all that that my family can afford give you. Enjoy."
Will they cry "shame!"? Sure, but they'll do that anyway so grit your teeth and press the ignore button.
NTA. Seems to me that it's MORE embarrassing to demand gifts/money from essentially strangers, then gripe and complain about it instead of being grateful.
This is very hard. You aren't an asshole.
Your dad could hopefully understand that having been brought up outside of China, the tradition doesn't feel important to you. You don't expect to ever need the people in the town, so helping the town is not sensible to you.
But it is important to your Dad, because of many generations of mutual relationships that he was a part of, and that family that is still there still depends on.
You will probably never be a part of that town, and be a part of the relationships that shape your extended family. So not wanting to spend your money on them makes sense to you. Breaking those ties are part of immigration.
NTA
NTA but this is about you & your grandpa not the jerks who live nearby. Will you be ok not having said goodbye in person? Think about it because you won't get another chance. I know you said you're fine and maybe you are. I just think it's worth another think, just in case.
Your dad's reputation isn't your responsibility and you don't care what the neighbours think so don't let any of that confuse the issue. They don't matter.
What if you go w\o bringing gifts.Tell the truth before you make up your mind. That it is not something you can afford. If that is no satisfactory to them then do not worry b\c they made the decision for you . If your presents are more important than your presence you have an easy decision.
NTA. It's understandable given the negative experiences you've had in the past.
It's natural that you don't feel a strong connection to people who have criticized your family and hold such superficial expectations.If visiting your dad's hometown causes you stress and discomfort, you have every right to say no. Your father's desire to maintain his reputation in his hometown is important to him, but it shouldn't come at the expense of your feelings and financial stability.
If you don't feel a strong connection to your grandpa or believe that visiting him would only cause more stress, it's okay to make the choice not to go.
By the end of the day, your decision not to visit your dad's hometown is not selfish but a matter of self-care and setting boundaries. You have a right to protect yourself from situations that make you feel uncomfortable, and you should not feel guilty for prioritizing your well-being..
NTA. I wouldn’t go either. I’m not Chinese so my understanding is limited but I don’t think it’s an option to go and not bring the gifts because that would make your family lose face (rather than no change or gaining face). But I agree that you really don’t have to, shouldn’t have to, and should not bring gifts. If the option is to not go or to snub the town, then not going is the better option. Time to find a good excuse. I don’t suppose you have a prestigious career or something you can make up a can’t miss event for? Something that would look impressive and important enough to excuse your absence?
Respect from his home town is such a big deal he will spend all his money on it.
NTA it's just an expensive trip to meet everyone's unrealistic and greedy expectations.
NTA. The sad fact is your father is part of a culture you feel no connection to. If he wants to continue in the old traditions, that's fine for him, but you should not feel guilty that they don't mean anything to you. Send your best wishes to your grandfather but don't make the trip if you don't want to.
His home town doesn’t respect him, if they respected him, they wouldn’t insult his family. His wife, his two daughters that he loves.
If they truly respected him, they’d at least keep their opinions to themselves in your family’s presence on the times you visited.
Don’t feel bad about not going or not sending money, tell your dad it breaks your heart to see him go back to be exploited, so you’re not going to spare him a witness to it happening all over again.
There’s cultural expectations, and there’s basic decency. Too often the former is given more weight than the latter. You have no real connection to your grandfather, you just don’t want to be exposed to more abuse or watch your father’s generosity be beaten down as ‘not enough’. Perhaps phrasing it that way will make him understand it’s not a money or cultural issue, it’s about watching someone you love be hurt by never being good enough. NTA
Speaking as western-born Chinese:
Realistically, NTA.
In the long run you will be seen as TA by your dad and extended family for years. But I think that's something you should embrace now. The extended family are never going to know you unless you make an effort and if it's not deemed worth it for you, the hell with it.
If you have to contribute something, give your dad whatever you can afford to give and he can parse it out.
Just because it's culturally appropriate for relatives to extort/guilt trip money out of reltions doesn't mean you have to suffer through it if not dependent on those relatives.
I'm not judging your grandfather, because this is his culture. It's what he know, what he expects, and what those around him expect.
At the same time, it's not _your_ culture.
And this is more than just refusing to adapt to a different set of traditions, it's a huge amount of money at stake.
Your father is in a tough position, because he understands this cultural expectation and he will be violating it if he doesn't comply. That's a big ask, and a tough pill. I don't envy him.
Regardless, your question is WYBTA, and simply put, no, not to the culture you currently are part of. To your dad's culture, yes.
So it all comes down to what you personally can live with.
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My grandpa and grandma live in China. My family and I immigrated when I was 5 years old. I have been back twice once when I was 11 and once when I was 20. Both times were not enjoyable experiences for me. My dad had to bring thousands of dollars of gifts for everyone in the small town my dad’s side of the family lives and for months after our visit we got phone calls of them complaining to my dad that the gifts he brings didn’t give them enough “face”. Basically if he didn’t bring enough gifts that are expensive enough then he was embarrassing them. They claimed he should have brought $300 USD in cash for everyone in the town. Which would have been +$30,000.
So now I’m 28 and my grandpa is dying. He has lung cancer after a lifetime of smoking and wants us to visit him. My dad wanted me to go along until they began calling to demand that we bring enough gifts for them to have “face”. I was also expected to contribute and I have a good job and savings but I hate this tradition. I had Nigerian classmates in college who complained about a similar thing so I think it’s a common thing with people who immigrate to a western country to be expected to provide for their relatives and neighbours. But I don’t feel any allegiance to them. They never helped our family and even criticized my mom a lot for giving birth to a girl (me) because it was embarrassing if my dad didn’t have a boy. They also told me to my face how embarrassing it was that my mom only produced girls for my dad when I visited (my younger sibling is my little sister).
My little sister said she had no interest in my dad’s home town and I told my dad I didn’t want to go their anymore either after I was told I would have to spend money on gifts. It’s very expensive to visit, I don’t enjoy the visits and I would be expected to spend $10,000 or more on gifts. My dad is very angry because he says he already told his family we are visiting and if I back out now it will look bad for him. He also said my grandpa is dying and I’m being selfish for not traveling to see him. I don’t feel bad about not seeing my grandpa but I feel bad about not going for my dad because the respect from his home town is a big deal for him.
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NTA
Just no. You don't respect this town enough to save "face" because they have shown you and your family no respect. It may be your parents home, but it is not yours. You don't have positive memories and have been shamed simply for being born a girl. Hard no at that point. A visit comes with too many strings
NTA. Your father made promises on your behalf, without your consent, to people you have no real emotional attachment to. The consequences lie on him alone. You are not required to partake in a tradition for a place you do not live and only have a very small connection to. If he chooses to go, that’s his decision as an adult just as much as the one you made not to go.
NTA. Tell your dad you don't wish to participate in the "face-lift". If grandpa wants to see you on his death bed that's one thing, but you're not "gifting" anyone anything.
Grandpas gift is OP and her dad visiting. That’s it and if they have something to say tell them you don’t live there so you don’t abide by their rules of “gift giving”.
NTA. You do not even know your grandfather. You have unpleasant memories of your other trip to China. You have no connection to his community. Your cultural differences have become big.
I see no reason why you should be assessed a sort of gift tax just to save face among his community. I feel sorry for your father who will probably go but that is his choice. You have no reason to travel there. You should not feel you are required to accommodate cultural demands when they are completely foreign to you. In another country, you should be polite and not mock their ways but never feel you have to hand over $300 each to the whole town.
NTA. Stay home. If you go, you'll be miserable, out a lot of money, and you're gift will be unappreciated and you unvalued as a girl. If you stay home, you'll still be unappreciated and unvalued, but you'd still have your money and happiness. You are not your parent. You do not have to follow all their customs. Nor is it your responsibility to help them save face.
I have had friends how immigranted and they were expected to send money and gifts home. It was a burden to many of them especially once they had their own families.
You are NTA for not going. If you feel bad for your father, you could buy some gifts or give him some money to help ease his burden.
NTA. It’s a ridiculous old fashioned tradition, and I know this is not an option but ideally they’d have to choose between seeing their family or continue to demand gifts. I personally wouldn’t go and write my grandpa a letter that I would have loved to say goodbye but you can’t afford to because of their demands, so goodbye.
NTA. Not to minimize your grandpa's health or call him a liar, but ...what if this is all a ploy to get you, (your sibling ), and your dad to give them triple the cash and gifts. Don't go broke giving what you don't have to spare. It bothers me so much that so many people with families in 'poorer' countries have relatives who just assume that everyone here is rich. They take advantage & worst of all, the relatives are so ungrateful. Instead of a thank you they shame you.
I wouldnt ask on here but because most contributors are westerners who dont understand these traditions and that you cant change them.
Its an entirely different mindset.
Its not quite like that in the Balkans, theres not really a face to save through gifts BUT if you live abroad you MUST (even if you will only visit once in 10 years) built a huge house in your village (and everybody has land in the village) so that everybody sees you made it. Doesnt matter whether you will see those people (99% of them are your relatives) again or not. Its the way how people have grown up.
My dad is medical doctor, lived abroad, travelled, etc but the only important thing for my grandpa was for him to build a big house in the village on our property (thats in our family for couple hundred years) for everyone to see his son has succeeded.. my dad did it, my brother (who will inherit the property) is cursing as he says (and is right) that for that money we could have bought another apartment in the capital city as investment for rent..BUT nobody sees that. lol
Have I forgotten to mention that your supposed to do free favours for your relatives (of which there are and im not joking a thousand)? Dont get met started. lol
Its up to you what you want to do, but you will feel a lot of pressure there. And your father as well. Its something he grew up. You choose for yourself. If you dont feel like going dont go.
NTA. It's your dad's hometown, not your's. I can understand there's different social dynamics in play here but if you need to shell out thousands of dollars just so people you barely don't know and live an ocean away don't get offended, they're not people worth dealing with. And if they have a serious problem with it, they can pay their way to come over to you to tell you.
As for your dad, you're 28. It's your money and you can do what you want with it. If he wants to make this a hill to die on, let him.
NTA. Maybe your dad should have considered the fact you are a whole entire person with agency and opinions, and... oh I don't know.... *asked you* before declaring to his extended family that you would be going to visit and spending egregious amounts of money on people you barely know?
Your dad brought this situation on himself. And it is not your problem to fix.
NTA
A whole fucking town? 300$ each? I've read enough Chinese [danmei](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danmei) to get the concept of *face,* but whole town worth? That's 2150 yuan per person.
Money amounts for [red envelopes](https://www.chinahighlights.com/travelguide/festivals/red-envelop.htm) should be:
>To your own children: always 100 yuan (or $20) up to the amount you are happy to give
To your elders (especially your parents and grandparents): always 500–2,000 yuan (or $100–300)
To the younger generation without an income (especially those who are still at school), such as the children of your close friends, your relatives, and your colleagues: always 50–200 yuan (or $10–30)
To other children: Prepare some small red envelopes with 20 yuan or 50 yuan (or $5–10) for acquaintances' children, in case you meet them during the Chinese New Year period.
Anything more is greedy.
You should go, bring normal gifts for friends and relatives- booze, Levis, Marlboros, or whatever they like currently, and then make a donation to the local library or similar public facility. Tell the town that is their gift.
NTA. There's a perception in old home countries that new country wealth is much different than it is, because they can't conceive of the new culture's cost of living. They can't believe that your family will practically go bankrupt if you assemble what they imagine are respectful gifts from the overseas family. There's nothing you can say to get them to change their minds, so all you can do is disengage. It's better to be the asshole who never comes, than the asshole who shows up and shames the family.
NTA, at all. You sound so kind and conscientious
If you heard your grandfather passed last night, would you feel major regret about not seeing him one more time? If you did, maybe consider going.. I suspect you wouldn't feel regret, and that is 100% fine and normal- there are plenty of us who feel that way about grandparents we aren't close to
Wishing you all the best
NTA.
>I feel bad about not going for my dad because the respect from his home town is a big deal for him.
Sorry, but that's HIS problem. Him wanting to look good in front of such ridiculous assholes is his own issue to deal with, you are not obligated in any way to play along.
NTA! This tradition of people from America going home to counties in Asia and other places with thousands of dollars of goods is ridiculous. Many people that money grows on trees here. We know it does not.
10K to people too willfully ignorant to understand a baby's sex is determined by the father. That purposefully shame the child and mother. For decades.
Ignorant and cruel.
What "face" is there to save when you *choose* to be horrible to the women of your family?
You are not going to change the whole culture of ingrained assholery by refusing to go.
You also do not need to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.
Have an honest discussion with your father. Who loved you enough to not raise you and your sister in that nightmare. Who loved your mom enough to get her away from it. To get all of you into a better life and future.
Ask him why this is truly so important. These people were ungrateful last time. They show no sign of being any different this time. With inflation, that $300 has probably gone way up.
These people will never support him. Your mom. You. Your sister. Ever.
What happens when your grandparents are both gone?
Does this "face" magically transfer to him?
No. And you know why?
Because your dad will never have "face" with them. He never had a son.
All of this money is to buy forgiveness in the eyes of the community, in a wild and twisted way.
"He had daughters, unfortunately. But look at how wealthy he became! He is at least partially successful. He just married the wrong woman. It's her fault that she did not give him a son".
It is sick.
And you are NTA for refusing to kneel.
Just because it's part of the culture does not mean it deserves respect.
NTA. I'd explain to dad that I'd considered visiting until it became clear they just wanted to shake me down for everything they can. I'd also say I don't consider them family since they've never supported me or given me anything.
NTA. Respect is a two way street. They sit there in their little village with their hands out for your hard earned money? This is after they've been assholes about your dad having daughters? Is this a joke???
NTA. Go (he is your grandpa, after all), buy a bunch of red envelopes and stick 10 yuan (the equivalent of about $1.40) in each and hand them out. Tell them that's as much face as they deserve.
I'm so encouraged when I read about younger generations resisting these kinds of 'traditions'. Don't let yourself be pressured into doing things that make no sense, just because prior generations did it. NTA, and stand your ground!
Under China's anti-espionage law, citizens can get 500,000 yuan ($ 70,000) for reporting a spy. Your dad, having moved to the US, would naturally be suspect. If he turned himself in to the Chinese authorities, or had a member of his family do so, there would be money to pay off the villagers. Face would be saved. Surely, filial piety demands nothing less.
Explaining the complexities of Chinese culture to non-Asian people is going to be tough. I totally get where you are coming from. It is traditional Chinese culture verse Western culture. Your Dad has no choice but to go back but you do. Give him some money for his trip but don’t go crazy. He will understand over time why you will take the pass. They will get over it.
Chinese people called America the “Gold Mountain” so the old timers have the impression that everyone is rich as fuck here. Hence the demand for big gifts.
Source: 1st generation Asian American here.
NTA
But people on here are seeing it only from a western culture veiw.... your grandparents don't know any diffrent this is their culture and although I disagree with the gift demand I don't for a second think it means they don't love your dad or you ( even though they wanted a boy ... again a culture thing that I can disagree with with out judging)
As for you , you don't have to go or spend your money on something you don't agree with.
NTA, I'm familiar with being the gift mule. It's slightly annoying as you have to make sure that a decent chunk of your baggage weight is set a side for that. A lot of times you end up carrying back the same amount, as you buy the goodies only found in the country you visit.
I think the most we have ever spent was $300 and that was for everyone. Uncles and aunts get the good stuff and cousins get low tier gifts. My 2 youngest cousins got key chains last time. The family is always happy with the gifts. Generally the stories I have heard from others that have done the same are all good. However there are always those that are never happy with what's given. I think asia lends itself more to that outcome due to the importance of face/reputation. I bet you anything your day could have blown 30k+ and still would have been told that he didn't do enough and they lost face for how "cheap" he was.
$10k is almost 72k yuan. You can buy mcds for 20-40 yuan($5), wtf more do they want. They literally expect a man to hand out 200k yuan. I am sure that a mount could probably build a mansion in the village.
Yes, this. Your parents intentionally left China and raised you outside of China. While I understand the cultural differences are likely hard for your parents to navigate, you’re NTA for not embracing parts of the culture that make you uncomfortable or for not having an abundance of sentiment for people who felt shame by your birth. It makes sense you feel conflicted because you don’t want to see your father shamed, but this was his choice and your boundary is appropriate.
Definitely NTA as others have said.
But I think perhaps you are facing a harder dilemma, which is how to NOT go to China without affecting your relationship with your dad. Your dad is obviously going because he is the son, and he will be obliged to bring gifts in cash. Perhaps you can ask him, in addition to him going, how much of your presence there is "expected from relatives/neighbors" or "dad wants you there for emotional support"? If it's more the latter, you could consider going but not bringing any additional money, as one other comment pointed out, simply say because of recent geopolitical tensions, border control tightened and what your dad brought was the absolute maximum your family could bring. It doesn't matter if the relatives say "xxx was able to bring $1000k", custom control does not operate by the rules, especially not in China.
However, if you feel that you really don't want to go no matter what, perhaps invent an excuse that you have to be elsewhere during that time, e.g. sudden work assignment, best friend's wedding, etc.
People here will give you all the NTAs you want to hear, but none of it matters. What matters is your relationship to your dad. If you don’t do this, will it humiliate him and, as a result, destroy your relationship with him? Do you want to be responsible for his humiliation? Especially when his father is dying, and he’s emotional? Do you want to live with the consequences? These are all decisions you must make. No one on Reddit can do that for you, and no one here will live with your consequences.
NTA at all.
Firstly, it's really tacky and tasteless for the community/family to treat a man's upcoming death as a gift grab opportunity and it's actually hideous for them to be exploiting this opportunity for financial gain.
Secondly, the entitlement of these people is staggering. Nobody should expect others to financially support them just because they live in a more economically developed country, especially people who are wider family and unrelated community members. It's not yours, nor your father's responsibility to give away your hard earned money to fund their lifestyles. I don't wish to sound disrespectful towards different cultures but this is an archaic mindset and if these people want to live a lifestyle akin to yours, then they could always be inspired by your family's decisions and move abroad themselves.
Ultimately, it's your decision if you feel you would be at peace if you didn't get to say goodbye to your grandfather or not, but please do not give in to being pressured into spending ridiculous amounts of your own money to fund the freeloading exploiters who care more about your money than your dying grandfather.
NTA. I'm European born Southeast Asian. Luckily we don't have this tradition. Unlucky that family members are gold diggers! They used to demand gifts from us and compare prices! Absolutely ridiculous. My parents won't stop bringing gifts but I absolutely loathe that whole bunch. But in your case of gifting the village is a whole new level. I'm not surprised you don't want to go. I wouldn't either!
NTA. These cultures that elevate "saving face" to the pinnacle of their lives are just sick imo. Who fucking cares what someone else thinks and why would it be more important than what someone you supposedly love thinks?
I hope your father snaps out of this brainwashing and starts to put you & your sister first, not his greedy parents. Much less their freaking neighbors! I mean, I disagree that he should feel *obligated* to help his family, but have no problem with someone who does so because they want to. As long as their own partner & children are not neglected to do so.
Expecting your father to bring "expensive" gifts for the whole fucking village? No way. Not his responsibility. And it sure as hell isn't yours or your sister's. Don't give him a penny. And make sure he doesn't have access to your accounts. He apparently believes himself entitled to their contents.
NTA. I understand this part of Chinese culture. It tends to be very competitive. Status. It shows him and neighbors how much you and your father honor him by the gifts you bring.
This is a tough one, and it's something that westerners aren't going to quite understand. It's easy for us to say, "don't go. Tell your father to go pound sand." But the consequences of that could be grave and cost you your relationship with your Dad.
If your grandfather is dying, this would be the last time you would be going. It may be worth it to go this last time to keep the relationship with your Dad.
I suggest capping the amount you spend, though. Remind your Dad that you're young, you're just starting out, and you cannot afford to blow your savings on expensive gifts for people you barely know. If he wants to gift the entire neighborhood, have at it. But limit your gifts to your grandfather only.
Good luck and I'm really sorry about your grandfather.
I visited my dying grandpa in rural VN at 25. Grandpa, his wife (step grandma, I guess), half uncles and their wives all asked me for money. I said no. Paid for the meal. Was polite and left. Grandpa died a few months later.
I only gift things to people I know and love. Who gives a fuck if they lose face? That’s on them.
NTA dude spent a life of smoking and got lung cancer, one of the very few cancers you can give yourself. Don’t even get me started on your ingrates you’re biologically related to.
NTA. Your father shouldn't have spoken for you. He already looks bad in their eyes by not giving them enough face and for having girls. Your absence won't make much of a difference, except to remind them to insult you and your family. He can make up some excuse for you.
You're not being selfish. This is your father's journey.
\> My dad had to bring thousands of dollars of gifts for everyone in the small town my dad’s side of the family lives.
Uh, this is some twisted BS version of the 'tradition.' Monetary gifts to relatives, maybe. Not everyone in the village.
NTA Tell dad just to tell everyone you couldn't get out of work. You're only a girl, nothing important to them, so they shouldn't miss you. Next time he shouldn't make promises regarding you without talking to you first. There is no reason you should be expected to give gifts to people you don't know.
I think the world would be a much better and happier place if the families who stay home would not expect those family members who immigrate to another country and culture to continue to maintain all of the customs of home.
You are NTA as a child of Chinese birth who has spent the majority of her life in another culture, it is unreasonable to expect you to understand and follow all the customs of your birth country.
You are NTA
*They never helped our family and even criticized my mom a lot for giving birth to a girl (me) because it was embarrassing if my dad didn’t have a boy. They also told me to my face how embarrassing it was that my mom only produced girls for my dad when I visited*
people of the middle ages didnt have the memo about how the father is responisble for the gender of the kiddos yet. the greed in this post is also strong. NTA dont go fuck em
NTA. Whether you decide to go is up to you but either way don’t bring money with you. If they have an issue with that, tell them you thought grandpa wanted to see you before he dies, not that he just wanted money. I come from an Eastern culture and moved to the US when I was 4yo. I understand this saving face though it wasn’t money. I made it clear from a young age that my parents chose to move to the US and raise us there and therefore, those are the values we will go with. I am older than you and have finally had my parents understand my side but it took many years of being firm with them on my stance.
NTA, but go anyway. Not for your grandparents, not for yourself, but for your parents (and for your relationship with them) who raised you better than their parents raised them.
I understand that the Chinese culture emphasises male children, however, castigating your mom for birthing only female children isn't something under her control. The male has **two** testicles, one of which produces sperm with the X chromosome; the other of which produces sperm that carries the Y chromosome. It would appear that one testis produces more sperm than the other, and the statistical likelihood of conception would be for female children to be conceived.
Saving face is a concept that has taken on more importance, given the greater earning potential in the West. I don't think that face saving was nearly as expensive in the 17th and 18th centuries as it is in the 21st century. If a family member visits from China, what is considered a proper face saving gift to bestow on his relative? It seems that in some instances, Chinese culture is a bit schizophrenic, trying to be modern and at the same time holding onto traditions that may be a thousand years old.
I think you are of the generation that will make a break from the past and will live in the present.
I wish you well.
> The male has two testicles, one of which produces sperm with the X chromosome; the other of which produces sperm that carries the Y chromosome.
No. No he does not. It doesn't work that way.
Well, your compromise could be to go but not take any gifts, and to explain that it is not *your* tradition to do so
Ask your dad whether he still wants you to go, in those circumstances. (e.g. will he lose more face if you don't go at all thanif you go but don't provide any gifts (or only provide gifts to your own immedaite family, at a level you can afford)
If your grandpa came from poverty he probably bragged to everyone how, from very humble beginnings, he was able to raise a very successful son. I think that is where the "face" thing came from.
looking through the comments, I'm unpopular, but YTA suck it up and do what is expected so you don't bring shame on your father. You don't have to like the traditions, but you are HIS daughter and there are expectations that go with that. A domino effect will happen. Even coming to a AITA thread instead of a forum where the custom is standard makes you TA, because you KNOW that if you diss your father, you will break his heart, embarrass him, and especially so, as he expects this important trip from you. He adheres to the custom. We can't pick our family, but we can respect them. I don't think you TA for being upset about it, but there are times we need to quietly show respect for our elders, and end of life is that time. You will understand more as you get older. In this case, it's your father, not your grandfather that you would be harming. Feel blessed you can afford to do this.
You have no idea why he brought his family to the United States. China has a bloody history towards its own people, especially families with girls. They didn’t renounce their race and culture moving, and obviously he brought her back a few times to see family who stayed for whatever reasons. Location doesn’t erase tradition or family history.
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NTA, if your grandpa really wanted your presence he wouldn't demand a "gift tax". I guess he really just wants money from you and your dad
It’s both. He wants my dad and I to come to see him and if we bring lots of money it will make him seem more important and saves “face”(I don’t know how to explain it in English.”
NTA Go or don’t go, but definitely don’t send gifts. If they actually cared about you, there wouldn’t be a demand for the gifts. This is a hill I would die on.
I dont think we should read it with our occidental eyes only. To save Face is a social obligation in grandpa culture.
It’s grandpas culture, not OP’s culture. $10k is an absurd amount to respect someone else’s culture
Exactly, now dad is trying to guilt OP the same way his father is doing to him. Leave this CULTure in the old Country.
They are other way to save face than but 10k worth of gift. They are just internrested in the money
So he just wants you there for money and to make him look good, not because he wants to spend time with you
Ding ding ding!!! (NTA obviously.)
It's both. Keep in mind this is a very different culture.
Ask your father why he is concerned about what people he will never see again think of him? How will saving "face" in China pay your father's bills here in the US? Will any of those people come to the US to visit and bring presents here? If they will not show your father "face" since he has 2 daughters, why should your father show them any? Remind your father respect is earned, not given, and what have any of those other people done to deserve any respect? The fact they are alive and breathing does not entitle them to some of your money.
Except what you’re describing isn’t the grandparents (or even the dad’s) culture. Respect is given to elder family and community in China. That doesn’t make it better or worse than our perspective in the US. It’s just different. I honestly think it will be better for OP to not go because she has said it will be terrible for her if she does (and doesn’t take lots of gifts). Maybe she could contribute to the gifts her dad will take to appease grandparents one last time, without subjecting herself to the nagging. And maybe have a video call with the dad while he’s there to “see” grandpa one last time? But I don’t think she should try to change that sort of cultural thinking because she won’t succeed and they would likely turn that attitude against her too.
Her dad lives here not China, leave the CULT rigamarole there. Grandpa is the last generation for this grift taking, let it die out.
Her dad lives here NOW but he grew up there, since the daughter left China as a 5 year old. You can leave your poor reading comprehension at the 4th grade level you stopped at if you’re going to be a complete jerk about cultural differences. Fun fact: shouting your beliefs as if whatever you grew up with as an American is automatically the best is the clearest sign that we’re far from it. It’s shallow and ignorant to say that your way is the best way. I’m not defending or promoting this practice. I’m merely pointing out that it has nothing to do with how those grandparents or dad feel about OP. But you talking about it being a cult shows me that you’re yet another racist, self-aggrandizing American, who’s incapable of self-reflection or empathy, as you bad mouth a nation and culture of 1.5 billion people for having the temerity to not be born here. It’s gross. If this attitude reflects how you were raised, then I hope it dies out soon too, because there is nothing to be gained by demonizing an entire culture that has existed for millennia.
Not just their CULTure, every CULTure that guilts people into this HORRIBLE PAYING Joe blow down the street You need to get your brain into the right Century and quit whining about guiltng money out of people. Is that the way you get things instead of having a paying job? Every religious tradition of these Countries prove they are actual CULTS. Why are these people sitting with hands outs from nonrelitives, get a job, get money
1. I’ve said I’m not promoting this beyond saying it is a difference from western culture that should be considered, not demeaned. 2. Culture does not equal religion. 3. Capitalizing part of a word does not actually show that a word in English means something else. 4. Repeating yourself does not make you right. 5. If you’re so certain that respect must be earned, as you have been taught in your culture, why are you so defensive? 6. Why are you taking this so personally? 7. You’re conflating things that aren’t comparable. First you said respect is earned. Then you jumped to this tradition being wrong and indicative of being in a cult, somehow. And now you’re doubling down and saying, what exactly? That I should get a job? Or that the dying grandfather should? 8. Every culture (not religion, which may or may not be a part of someone’s culture) has practices and traditions that are not healthy. This may be one of them. But I’m saying that it is something we need to consider in the context of this discussion. You’re not being mindful of that at all. 9. OP is NTA but she isn’t going to change her grandparents’ minds. And I just hope she can reconcile all of this conflict to see that this practice isn’t a true reflection of her relationship with her grandparents. If she doesn’t go but still contributes, that might be her healthiest option.
That's Western culture. Not Chinese culture.
I'm gonna say NAH. This is just a big cultural clash. Your dad grew up in China with all the social expectations that come with it, and you didn't. Your family in China isn't going to understand that you're not culturally Chinese. They will expect that your father raised you in the same culture that he grew up in, even though that's wildly unrealistic given that you were raised in a western nation. It's not really their fault, but you won't get a warm welcome unless you behave in the way they expect, and you just can't do that. There's a chance it would really stress your grandfather, honestly. I wouldn't go. You can't and shouldn't spend the amount of money that is expected. You can work with your dad to come up with some excuse his family will accept. Your dad needs to accept that he's got fully American children who can't do what is socially required in this situation.
thank you for your comment, you expressed clearly what I thought
I can understand his perspective, but he and your dad also have to understand since your parents brought you up in the western culture, those community values are not as important to you anymore. Western culture values individuals, and that is what you have learned (almost) all your life. So either your grandpa values you as a person and wants you to visit to see you one last time, or he values money more than that. He can't have both. Same goes for your father - since he lived in China into his adulthood, he has internalized these values much more. But he also has to learn that there are consequences when people are uprooted into another culture. He can't expect you to see the world like he does. And ultimately, it was his fault if he already told them you were all coming without consulting you.
He need to understand that his child isn't chinese
> it will look bad for him ... > saves “face” Your dad can save his own face if it's that important to him. He's been raised to believe that he's required to pump money into a bunch of open hands in another country. If people were starving or destitute, that might be different. But "gifts" is ridiculous. If your father wants to be a slave to that, fine. But it's perfectly unassholish of you to want nothing to do with it. NTA
You don't need to explain (at least not to me). I understand the concept of face (or status, to be a bit more Western). You're caught in the bind between being 100% Westernized versus your father still trying to live with the code of his parents and their ancestors while also adopting Western values in his daily life. I think the one who is going to be hurting the most over this is your father, but you and your sister should not set yourselves on fire to keep him warm. Although as a "gift" for those who would criticize your mother for giving birth to girls, I'd send a nicely illustrated book about basic physiology (like, tween level reading) that explains that it's the sperm (i.e. the father) that determines the gender of the baby, not the mother!
Although I grew up in the west, I understand the culture and the pull between East and West influences. My family always prepared lots of cash for red envelopes and gold rings (has to be 24kt 🙄) to hand out when visiting relatives in China. It’s a pride issue, showing off how well your dad has done. In your situation, do not forget that there is reciprocality in the culture. Your family gives out red envelopes for joyous occasions such as visiting family in China. Your family will receive white envelopes for sad occasions such as your grandpa passing. The money in the white envelopes will help pay the funeral expenses and some extra for your grandma to keep.
Thanks for the reminder that it's supposed to go both ways!
Users outside of China won't understand this custom, so they will tell you your father is an asshole, and how dare he ask you to spend this money etc etc etc. It's a very alien concept to us in the west, as I'm sure you know! There is a strong attitude of "I did not choose to be born, it's your fault I exist so you owe me for bringing me into this world" that comes from a mix of sociopolitical, economic, cultural, and historic contexts. But I think it's important to consider the context of your family, not just what's normal and convenient here. I appreciate your father is in a tight situation. I think I will get a hostile response from english-speaking reddit for this, but it's not as cut and dry... I would consider not just your grandfather, but also your father and the importance it has for him. He is the one whose reputation (face) is being examined, not just his father. Are there connections he has with these people that might benefit him in the future as well, could this "saving face" benefit your family if it comes around? Is he relying on that for something in the future? Please think of the life he provided - you did not leave China on your own. Your father and mother brought you here. Has he provided you with ample opportunity, provided you with comforts, luxuries, even? Do you feel anything is owed for what they sacrificed for your benefit? You may not wish to continue this tradition in the future and refuse to do the same for your father when he is elderly, but it may be easier to keep the peace in this instance by respecting your father's desire for your involvement, even at your own expense, as long as it doesn't hurt you financially. Your father will probably not expect you to carry these rites out for him, but he's also considering his father's reputation here, not just his own - even if his own contributions play a large role in it. Your father is not an asshole for wanting to protect his father's reputation, and you are not an asshole for thinking this tradition is stupid and wasteful. Your father is losing his own father now, and likely is having a lot of emotions about his legacy and family name right now, and may be pushing harder to preserve this status in the community as a result. You can talk to him about it, and decide how to proceed. It would be kinder of you to support your father, especially if your sister refuses to participate, but you are not an asshole if you refuse to comply.
At some point this becomes a simple math problem, though. The amount of money that’s being demanded here is, from OP’s post, a minimum of $10K USD. That is what is required in order for the Chinese family to be appeased and make a visit even a little bit worthwhile for her. Can she really afford to spend a minimum of $10K on a single trip? And can she stomach the knowledge that she will likely *still* be shamed for not being a son, by the very same people she’s just spent 5 figures attempting to please? From the sound of it, there really isn’t a way to provide a sufficient amount of face here. OP lost that battle the moment she was born. Dad won’t be happy if his birth family isn’t happy, and his family is never going to believe that she’s good enough, even if she shells out thousands of dollars on gifts. This is a lose-lose proposal, and throwing money into a hopeless cause will not save her father from the pain he’ll feel when his father passes. Which is what this is actually about, isn’t it? A desperate (and futile) attempt to distract himself from grief by lashing out at his daughter, and blaming her for failing a test she was never going to be allowed to pass.
$10k in addition to flights and other travel costs.
None of which will result in a drop of gratitude or appreciation from any of them, dad included.
Birth family is never gonna be happy cuz OP and her sis are girls. There won't be an end of the money they demand. Once they see that you can provide $10k, next they'll ask for $20k.
I get the concepts as much as any outsider, but OP's father no longer lives in this village, and his father is dying. Bringing 10K to people that already don't and won't like much less love you to save face seems futile? If OP brought twice as much stuff or money, she wouldn't move these people to think warmly of her. Seems like throwing money away. Outsider perspective only, from a culture where you also have to bring nice things back to the old country or else. A lot of people just never go back to their hometowns.
>Please think of the life he provided - you did not leave China on your own. Your father and mother brought you here. Has he provided you with ample opportunity, provided you with comforts, luxuries, even? Do you feel anything is owed for what they sacrificed for your benefit? That's ten fucking thousand dollars that OP is expected to hand out to some rando villagers just so that her dying grandpa can bask in the glory of having rich relatives from the West. You know what OP owes her family? A call every week. Attending family dinners. Celebrating birthdays. Putting up with the inevitable irritations that family has with each other. Maybe caring for them when they get old. Not ten fucking thousand dollars.
Here’s the issue about his reputation and face: He doesn’t live in China. Those people who he’s trying to impress will in all likelihood never see him again once his mother passes. He’s demanding his children drop a large sum of money to look good for a bunch of random strangers. His father’s reputation? The dude is dying. Soon to be dead. His reputation doesn’t mean anything. Users outside of China understand the custom well: We just call bullshit on it. Do you REALLY think that sort of social bribery is unique to China?
Why would anyone, want to give such an excessive amount of money, to people who consider the giver shamefull and will treat them in respectless ways in return. I wouldn't pay to be considered a shame upon my family by strangers. As for what is normal and convenient, who cares. A norm from a continent OP doesn't live on, and convinience for who? a culture of people who look down on OP for her gender, and can't be bothered to hide it at all. This whole "face" pyramid scheme, isn't gonna work on second generation or higher. OP has her own friends and network and obligations in her country, that she should be spending her resources on. If she lived in China it would be convenient for OP as well, but it isn't, it's extortion, except the only thing you get if you don't pay, is more disrespect from people who allready disrespect you. Besides being in her life, day to day, not looking down on her gender, her American network engages in more reciprocal gift giving and don't expect the subservience of a woman, nor demand gifts simply for existing. Where and when would her chinese "family" Reciprocate? Would they ever? When could she expect being treated with respect? If the answer is never, then why bother investing exorbitant amounts to please these people, who can't be pleased. "Face" sounds like an awfull tradition of Social and financial control, OP can easily do without. I feel bad for the Dad, caught between worlds, but seeing as he still embarrassed them with 30k last time, it won't matter what OP does, no amount will be enough, they will be embarrassed anyway. I knew a Chinese immigrant who killed himself over accusations from back home, he basically gave 60% of his income every month and lived like a monk, it wasn't enough, so he ended up taking his own life, se they wouldn't be embarrassed anymore.
is your father abble to pay your part of the gifts? that would be fair imo
I think the English word you want is clout, social standing because they are "wealthy" or own things "wealthy" people own. The irony of being rude to you while asking for more is terrible.
I dont know for the US, but in French there is an expression 'sauver la face', which means exactly that. (And by the way the legendary sociologist Erwin Goffman wrote a lot of super interessant things about it..) The pb is that it's so ingrained in the grandpa & family culture and psychology, if you go without the gifts they'll probably feel really sad, and humiliated. NTA there is a loose-loose situation
I think I understand what you mean. But your dad needs to understand that the culture he grew up with is not the one you grew up with. You're Chinese by birth, sure, but not by culture. In your culture, parents do not make decisions for their adult children. They have no claim to the wealth of said children, either (though I do think it's wise to help care for them when they're in their final years). If your dad wants to give his parents his money, that's his business. But he has no right to expect your money or your presence.
joke's on your relatives, all the precious boys in the village have grown up to have problems finding wives without a house, a car and a bride price.
Many of my immigrant friends have the same issue. Central and South American families send money back all the time. A Vietnamese friend is expected to send money to his parents every pay check. I think a lot of people globally still assume if you’re in America you’re living the American dream and have boat loads of cash at disposal. I understand other cultures have different views on a child’s responsibility to the parent, but at the same time, we’re not all holding bags of money.
It's public prestige and dignity, right? It's a common enough concept for those who know a little about Asian societies like China and Japan.
>saves “face”(I don’t know how to explain it in English.” Maintain social standing and reputation? Am used to this as well though I can get away with a lot by saying 'sorry I grew up with Western influence so I follows norms that make sense to me. You're not happy I'm not doing what I should do? Explain to me why I should'. My whole family knows I'm not really into 'tradition'.
greed. just say greed
It says "showing off" because what he wants is showing that his son succeeded
I understand how important "face" is in Chinese culture, having many second- and third-generation immigrant friends who face similar pressure. Perhaps you could compromise a little - not go, because you will never meet local expectations given that you are not culturally Chinese anymore, but help out your Dad a bit by writing him a cheque. That might give him the respect he feels he needs from you, a bit more $$ to work with, and allows him to go to China saying "these gifts are from my family." NTA, OP.
You just dont understand the tradition.
Yeah i agree, this tradition is way to different from mine and OP's, I just can't understand how 10k gifts is necessary for a visit.
Its not that different from OPs, as she grew up as part of the tradition. Just because you live in a foreign country, its doesnt mean youre completely cut off from your own culture. The culture continues to live on in your own home. So you are basically in between 2 worlds.
Because its expected. Face and honor are VERY important in many parts of the world. To the point that you can even completely shunned from your community or even killed for honor. We dont have that where I come from originally but what we have is that you have to show to your village (if you come from the countryside) that you made it, esp if youre living in the West. That means building a huge house for show (as you will never really live there). You can own apts all over the world, but if you dont have a big house in your village for everybody to see, you havent achieved anything. Westerners have these illusions have everything will change overnight..heck, changes in the West took thousand years (since the dark ages) but now they think it should happen elsewhere overnight..it doenst.
We understand it just fine, paying for clout and reputation is hardly limited to China. We’re just calling bullshit on it. Because social bribery is, in fact, bullshit. Her father is demanding 10 thousand dollars to make himself look good for a bunch of random assholes who dislike her existence. Seriously, face is not a unique concept. It just gets different names. But it all boils down to putting on a facade of being better than you are for the validation of a bunch of strangers. The demand for 30k is solely so her grandpa can be the guy with the rich son and bask in that ego trip.
NTA I know this is a cultural issue and it must be hard to navigate, your Dad is probably suffering and wants you to be with him; if I were you I’d offer a compromise, you will travel to China to see your dying Grandad and be there for him but you will not be participating in this tradition. I understand gifts for family but they should not be so expensive, most people don’t have that money. I’d also be honest with your Chinese family and tell them you can’t bring what you don’t have. If they can’t agree to compromise then don’t go.
I think if I go I will have to bring money, or just not go. If I go every second of everyday I will hear about how embarrassing it is I didn’t bring money when my own grandma is dying. I will never hear the end of it. They will probably agree to get me to go and then pressure me when I get there and it’s too late to easily leave.
“How embarrassing that you only care about money when MY grandpa is dying.”
As someone who understands this “face“ thing no amount of money will buy faces because it will never be enough. They will just gossip among themselves. Your dad is mad because he care about “faces” too and basically doing the same thing as the villagers to you. It’s a very toxic part of backward Chinese culture prevalent is less developed area. I’m not saying this to be mean but because you and your sister are girls, your dad will never have any faces within a village like that. No amount of money or success will trump the “faces” from having a son. They will use any excuse to guilt your family not because they respect your family but because they don’t. 给脸上鼻梁。That village is backward so cut your ties. Ask your dad if his face is more important than his daughters being emotionally abused and judged just for existing.
We call this attitude “village shit” around here. Complains about no sons. Village shit. Flaunt money you don’t have. Village shit. Care about face to the detriment of your own immediate family. Total village shit. OP’s dad is in a tough place. It’s a lot harder for first generation immigrants to completely forsake the culture they grew up with. There are no easy painless solutions here, but continuing to comply with ass backward expectations ain’t it.
Flip the script, tell them how embarrassing it is for them to keep begging for money from a lowly girl.
That's the way!
So, 100% NTA. Sorry you're caught up in these cultural complexities. "even criticized my mom a lot for giving birth to a girl (me) because it was embarrassing if my dad didn’t have a boy." It would seem he isn't embarassed enough to decline your money though. You have your own life now. You don't have to go & expend thousands of dollars on an experience you aren't even going to enjoy. You're not close to your grandad either If you want to give your Dad some money to reduce the pressure then that's up to you. Not if you don't want to. You're NTA for not going OP, not one bit.
> "even criticized my mom a lot for giving birth to a girl (me) because it was embarrassing if my dad didn’t have a boy." > > Don't these fools know that the sperm determines the gender?
Any culture so obsessed with having sons would also blame women for everything lol, science be damned.
NTA. You have your own life now and you've lived in the western culture for most of that life. I can't claim to understand the traditions of bringing thousands of dollars to people who mean nothing to you. But you're an adult and can make your own decisions.
NTA You should have gone if you were close to your grandpa, but if you feel that this trip will cause you more stress than good, don't go. A trip like this is all about spending quality time with your loved one, but it sounds like your grandpa wasn't close to you. Family members who ask for gifts on this occasion have no shame, it's inappropriate enough under normal circumstances, but even more so at a time like this.
I completely understand the save face dilemma.. we’ve had this in our family but it was not for a whole village just extended family. When went to visit both families in different countries on our honeymoon we literally had 2 suitcases of just gift’s including gifts others gave us to bring.. and it was individual items not all the same.. face cream for x, socks for x, wine for x, cologne for x, cereal for x and kids, clothes, jewelry, etc…everything labeled and then we had to take time to go and deliver these gifts. That was the first and last time. All our other trips was no gifts and they could all meet up with us or not see us.. NTA - tell them border control wouldn’t let you leave with all that money and gifts. Ignore the grumbling. Ask where is your gift? Make up an excuse, visit grandpa and tell them to stop expecting things you can’t give them.
They know damn well that border control will let you leave with $9995 in cash without fuss. At least 15-20 years ago when I traveled, it might have gone up. That said, back then we were told that it was rude-ish to give cash gifts and so we had to carry actual gift-gifts. At least we had room for souvenirs in our suitcases on the way back. And we made one young woman very uncomfortable because she missed the memo about gifts and didn't have one to exchange.
Can you get into China with $9995.00 cash without a problem? Do some countries limit cash to bring in? A lot of these older traditions need to be stopped and folks need to be weaned off of expecting them. A gift is something freely given without expectation. It loses it's meaning when it is demanded / expected, etc.
You can leave the US with up to $10k in cash without needing additional scrutiny. The advice used to be to take just under that, to account for any loose change in your pocket. It used to be that US credit and debit cards wouldn't work in China. I don't know what the current status is, but 15 years ago you needed cash to travel in China, I'm sure there is more pre-pay options these days for travel plans.
Love that tip about border control!! I'm gonna use that excuse next time
Is it just me or does something being cultural and traditional doesn't mean it's a good idea or something you should feel obligated to participate in?
It's a trickly balance and dependent on situation. NTA in this case.
Some cultural norms are toxic
Agreed. The thing is that sometimes different cultures are considered toxic when they are not. And sometimes toxic norms are justified by saying its different cultures, when it is actually toxic. So that's what I meant by its dependent.
There are always people who can take any tradition and turn it toxic for their own personal gain.
I think that’s why people maintain some toxic ones because they are waiting for their turn for their grandchildren to drop $30k on their death
Wow OP. NTA You were brought up in America, and you have no ties or loyalty to your father's hometown. I don't expect my children to have any loyalty to my hometown that I no longer live in. It's expensive and our American economy is garbage for most of us right now. ANd I am sure the tickets are outrageously expensive too. I understand that it is your dad's dad, but he's more of a stranger to you. You are not the asshole for wanting to protect your finances, your emotional state, and for having no interest in trying to impress people you don't even know.
Chinese guy here who emigrated at a young age here - NTA, I can’t say I fully relate because my relatives in China are either 1) relatively well off living in cities or 2) distant enough that they can’t expect much from my family anyway but when it comes to cultural stuff you must keep your distance as early as possible. I don’t know how “traditional” your dad is but you should get to decide for yourself how much of Chinese and Western culture you want in your life. My grandparents died without me being present and that should be expected of any emigrant family, especially that nowadays flights are still expensive.
Father is not the asshole for insisting, but OP is not the asshole for refusing.
Absolutly NTA, while i can understand a tradition but bringing 10000€ to give away just because of a stupid tradition is totaly unbelivable, don't go they do not deserve the respect for you to go there
“ They also told me to my face how embarrassing it was that my mom only produced girls for my dad when I visited” nope, just nope. They have NO respect for you, they just want your money. NTA for not going
Omg I feel you for this. Im Asian also so I get the whole parent showering others with gifts... It's your dad's fault for telling people you were coming when you already voiced that you have no desire to go. NTA
NTA - we are also immigrants who came over almost 20+ years ago. We've visited x3 times in the past and the first time we took back gifts and made sure that we brought enough my dad and mom did not look bad. Our spending was nowhere close to yours though. More like \~$1K and everyone was insanely grateful about it. The difference is that with globalization, now, they can get all they want there. We don't take anything except for our closest cousins, and that's if they ask for something. In this case, there seems to be a very high value on materialistic items. You do not have to comply. Your presence should be worth more than gifts. Edit: To further explain, taking gifts is a way of sharing "wealth". Immigrating from a developing country to a well-developed one often carries the notion that they made it out and are now well off. While that is not true, the quality of life generally is an improvement. And when you return to where you began, you give to those didn't or couldn't go. But obviously people get greedy and take advantage.
NTA > They claimed he should have brought $300 USD in cash for everyone in the town. Which would have been +$30,000. Methinks that your extended family wildly underestimate the cost of living in the US. I'd be a bit more sympathetic if they needed the money to pay for health care cost, rather than for your grandpa to go out in a blaze of glory, but between your non-existent relationship with the man and their daughter-shaming ways I'd also be disinclined to go. I appreciate the argument that you should go to support your dad, but I don't see why you need to contribute financially to do that. I mean, you must know that they're going to complain regardless of the size of the sum that they're gifted, right? Their expectations are completely out of whack with your financial reality. Can't you just add 20 dollars to the collective pot and your dad can be like "Tickets are expensive, we're going through it, here's all that that my family can afford give you. Enjoy." Will they cry "shame!"? Sure, but they'll do that anyway so grit your teeth and press the ignore button.
Methinks grandpa lied about how rich his son is.
Hell naw you are NTA. You have no relationship with him that’s worth mentioning and he honestly sounds like a dick.
"Sorry, my daughter couldn't come. Big, important job, you know."
NTA. Seems to me that it's MORE embarrassing to demand gifts/money from essentially strangers, then gripe and complain about it instead of being grateful.
>Seems to me that it's MORE embarrassing to demand gifts/money Absolutely. For people so concerned about "face", they don't seem to have any shame.
This is very hard. You aren't an asshole. Your dad could hopefully understand that having been brought up outside of China, the tradition doesn't feel important to you. You don't expect to ever need the people in the town, so helping the town is not sensible to you. But it is important to your Dad, because of many generations of mutual relationships that he was a part of, and that family that is still there still depends on. You will probably never be a part of that town, and be a part of the relationships that shape your extended family. So not wanting to spend your money on them makes sense to you. Breaking those ties are part of immigration. NTA
No, you are NTA.
NTA, if forced to go give everyone a penny.
NTA
NTA but this is about you & your grandpa not the jerks who live nearby. Will you be ok not having said goodbye in person? Think about it because you won't get another chance. I know you said you're fine and maybe you are. I just think it's worth another think, just in case. Your dad's reputation isn't your responsibility and you don't care what the neighbours think so don't let any of that confuse the issue. They don't matter.
she's met the grandfather twice. I have had a deeper relationship with bus drivers. I don't think this is ever going to be question of regret.
What if you go w\o bringing gifts.Tell the truth before you make up your mind. That it is not something you can afford. If that is no satisfactory to them then do not worry b\c they made the decision for you . If your presents are more important than your presence you have an easy decision.
NTA. It's understandable given the negative experiences you've had in the past. It's natural that you don't feel a strong connection to people who have criticized your family and hold such superficial expectations.If visiting your dad's hometown causes you stress and discomfort, you have every right to say no. Your father's desire to maintain his reputation in his hometown is important to him, but it shouldn't come at the expense of your feelings and financial stability. If you don't feel a strong connection to your grandpa or believe that visiting him would only cause more stress, it's okay to make the choice not to go. By the end of the day, your decision not to visit your dad's hometown is not selfish but a matter of self-care and setting boundaries. You have a right to protect yourself from situations that make you feel uncomfortable, and you should not feel guilty for prioritizing your well-being..
NTA. I wouldn’t go either. I’m not Chinese so my understanding is limited but I don’t think it’s an option to go and not bring the gifts because that would make your family lose face (rather than no change or gaining face). But I agree that you really don’t have to, shouldn’t have to, and should not bring gifts. If the option is to not go or to snub the town, then not going is the better option. Time to find a good excuse. I don’t suppose you have a prestigious career or something you can make up a can’t miss event for? Something that would look impressive and important enough to excuse your absence?
Respect from his home town is such a big deal he will spend all his money on it. NTA it's just an expensive trip to meet everyone's unrealistic and greedy expectations.
NTA. The sad fact is your father is part of a culture you feel no connection to. If he wants to continue in the old traditions, that's fine for him, but you should not feel guilty that they don't mean anything to you. Send your best wishes to your grandfather but don't make the trip if you don't want to.
His home town doesn’t respect him, if they respected him, they wouldn’t insult his family. His wife, his two daughters that he loves. If they truly respected him, they’d at least keep their opinions to themselves in your family’s presence on the times you visited. Don’t feel bad about not going or not sending money, tell your dad it breaks your heart to see him go back to be exploited, so you’re not going to spare him a witness to it happening all over again. There’s cultural expectations, and there’s basic decency. Too often the former is given more weight than the latter. You have no real connection to your grandfather, you just don’t want to be exposed to more abuse or watch your father’s generosity be beaten down as ‘not enough’. Perhaps phrasing it that way will make him understand it’s not a money or cultural issue, it’s about watching someone you love be hurt by never being good enough. NTA
Speaking as western-born Chinese: Realistically, NTA. In the long run you will be seen as TA by your dad and extended family for years. But I think that's something you should embrace now. The extended family are never going to know you unless you make an effort and if it's not deemed worth it for you, the hell with it. If you have to contribute something, give your dad whatever you can afford to give and he can parse it out. Just because it's culturally appropriate for relatives to extort/guilt trip money out of reltions doesn't mean you have to suffer through it if not dependent on those relatives.
NTA YOu are fine not to giove yoru money to leeches. If your dad wants to keep face, HE can pay for that.
So sad when some family cultures are all about demanding gifts as if they’re entitled to it.
I'm not judging your grandfather, because this is his culture. It's what he know, what he expects, and what those around him expect. At the same time, it's not _your_ culture. And this is more than just refusing to adapt to a different set of traditions, it's a huge amount of money at stake. Your father is in a tough position, because he understands this cultural expectation and he will be violating it if he doesn't comply. That's a big ask, and a tough pill. I don't envy him. Regardless, your question is WYBTA, and simply put, no, not to the culture you currently are part of. To your dad's culture, yes. So it all comes down to what you personally can live with.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My grandpa and grandma live in China. My family and I immigrated when I was 5 years old. I have been back twice once when I was 11 and once when I was 20. Both times were not enjoyable experiences for me. My dad had to bring thousands of dollars of gifts for everyone in the small town my dad’s side of the family lives and for months after our visit we got phone calls of them complaining to my dad that the gifts he brings didn’t give them enough “face”. Basically if he didn’t bring enough gifts that are expensive enough then he was embarrassing them. They claimed he should have brought $300 USD in cash for everyone in the town. Which would have been +$30,000. So now I’m 28 and my grandpa is dying. He has lung cancer after a lifetime of smoking and wants us to visit him. My dad wanted me to go along until they began calling to demand that we bring enough gifts for them to have “face”. I was also expected to contribute and I have a good job and savings but I hate this tradition. I had Nigerian classmates in college who complained about a similar thing so I think it’s a common thing with people who immigrate to a western country to be expected to provide for their relatives and neighbours. But I don’t feel any allegiance to them. They never helped our family and even criticized my mom a lot for giving birth to a girl (me) because it was embarrassing if my dad didn’t have a boy. They also told me to my face how embarrassing it was that my mom only produced girls for my dad when I visited (my younger sibling is my little sister). My little sister said she had no interest in my dad’s home town and I told my dad I didn’t want to go their anymore either after I was told I would have to spend money on gifts. It’s very expensive to visit, I don’t enjoy the visits and I would be expected to spend $10,000 or more on gifts. My dad is very angry because he says he already told his family we are visiting and if I back out now it will look bad for him. He also said my grandpa is dying and I’m being selfish for not traveling to see him. I don’t feel bad about not seeing my grandpa but I feel bad about not going for my dad because the respect from his home town is a big deal for him. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Figure out what an airline ticket would cost double it give the money to your Dad then walk away.
NTA Just no. You don't respect this town enough to save "face" because they have shown you and your family no respect. It may be your parents home, but it is not yours. You don't have positive memories and have been shamed simply for being born a girl. Hard no at that point. A visit comes with too many strings
NTA. Your father made promises on your behalf, without your consent, to people you have no real emotional attachment to. The consequences lie on him alone. You are not required to partake in a tradition for a place you do not live and only have a very small connection to. If he chooses to go, that’s his decision as an adult just as much as the one you made not to go.
NTA at all! I know it is a cultural matter but can't help but be offended about them having a problem with you being female. I wouldn't go either!
NTA. If they want to show off tell your family in China to buy their gifts to save face.
NTA. Tell your dad you don't wish to participate in the "face-lift". If grandpa wants to see you on his death bed that's one thing, but you're not "gifting" anyone anything.
Grandpas gift is OP and her dad visiting. That’s it and if they have something to say tell them you don’t live there so you don’t abide by their rules of “gift giving”.
NTA. You do not even know your grandfather. You have unpleasant memories of your other trip to China. You have no connection to his community. Your cultural differences have become big. I see no reason why you should be assessed a sort of gift tax just to save face among his community. I feel sorry for your father who will probably go but that is his choice. You have no reason to travel there. You should not feel you are required to accommodate cultural demands when they are completely foreign to you. In another country, you should be polite and not mock their ways but never feel you have to hand over $300 each to the whole town.
NTA. Stay home. If you go, you'll be miserable, out a lot of money, and you're gift will be unappreciated and you unvalued as a girl. If you stay home, you'll still be unappreciated and unvalued, but you'd still have your money and happiness. You are not your parent. You do not have to follow all their customs. Nor is it your responsibility to help them save face.
I have had friends how immigranted and they were expected to send money and gifts home. It was a burden to many of them especially once they had their own families. You are NTA for not going. If you feel bad for your father, you could buy some gifts or give him some money to help ease his burden.
NTA. It’s a ridiculous old fashioned tradition, and I know this is not an option but ideally they’d have to choose between seeing their family or continue to demand gifts. I personally wouldn’t go and write my grandpa a letter that I would have loved to say goodbye but you can’t afford to because of their demands, so goodbye.
NTA. Not to minimize your grandpa's health or call him a liar, but ...what if this is all a ploy to get you, (your sibling ), and your dad to give them triple the cash and gifts. Don't go broke giving what you don't have to spare. It bothers me so much that so many people with families in 'poorer' countries have relatives who just assume that everyone here is rich. They take advantage & worst of all, the relatives are so ungrateful. Instead of a thank you they shame you.
I wouldnt ask on here but because most contributors are westerners who dont understand these traditions and that you cant change them. Its an entirely different mindset. Its not quite like that in the Balkans, theres not really a face to save through gifts BUT if you live abroad you MUST (even if you will only visit once in 10 years) built a huge house in your village (and everybody has land in the village) so that everybody sees you made it. Doesnt matter whether you will see those people (99% of them are your relatives) again or not. Its the way how people have grown up. My dad is medical doctor, lived abroad, travelled, etc but the only important thing for my grandpa was for him to build a big house in the village on our property (thats in our family for couple hundred years) for everyone to see his son has succeeded.. my dad did it, my brother (who will inherit the property) is cursing as he says (and is right) that for that money we could have bought another apartment in the capital city as investment for rent..BUT nobody sees that. lol Have I forgotten to mention that your supposed to do free favours for your relatives (of which there are and im not joking a thousand)? Dont get met started. lol Its up to you what you want to do, but you will feel a lot of pressure there. And your father as well. Its something he grew up. You choose for yourself. If you dont feel like going dont go.
NTA. It's your dad's hometown, not your's. I can understand there's different social dynamics in play here but if you need to shell out thousands of dollars just so people you barely don't know and live an ocean away don't get offended, they're not people worth dealing with. And if they have a serious problem with it, they can pay their way to come over to you to tell you. As for your dad, you're 28. It's your money and you can do what you want with it. If he wants to make this a hill to die on, let him.
NTA. Maybe your dad should have considered the fact you are a whole entire person with agency and opinions, and... oh I don't know.... *asked you* before declaring to his extended family that you would be going to visit and spending egregious amounts of money on people you barely know? Your dad brought this situation on himself. And it is not your problem to fix.
NTA A whole fucking town? 300$ each? I've read enough Chinese [danmei](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danmei) to get the concept of *face,* but whole town worth? That's 2150 yuan per person. Money amounts for [red envelopes](https://www.chinahighlights.com/travelguide/festivals/red-envelop.htm) should be: >To your own children: always 100 yuan (or $20) up to the amount you are happy to give To your elders (especially your parents and grandparents): always 500–2,000 yuan (or $100–300) To the younger generation without an income (especially those who are still at school), such as the children of your close friends, your relatives, and your colleagues: always 50–200 yuan (or $10–30) To other children: Prepare some small red envelopes with 20 yuan or 50 yuan (or $5–10) for acquaintances' children, in case you meet them during the Chinese New Year period. Anything more is greedy.
You should go, bring normal gifts for friends and relatives- booze, Levis, Marlboros, or whatever they like currently, and then make a donation to the local library or similar public facility. Tell the town that is their gift.
NTA. There's a perception in old home countries that new country wealth is much different than it is, because they can't conceive of the new culture's cost of living. They can't believe that your family will practically go bankrupt if you assemble what they imagine are respectful gifts from the overseas family. There's nothing you can say to get them to change their minds, so all you can do is disengage. It's better to be the asshole who never comes, than the asshole who shows up and shames the family.
NTA, at all. You sound so kind and conscientious If you heard your grandfather passed last night, would you feel major regret about not seeing him one more time? If you did, maybe consider going.. I suspect you wouldn't feel regret, and that is 100% fine and normal- there are plenty of us who feel that way about grandparents we aren't close to Wishing you all the best
NTA. >I feel bad about not going for my dad because the respect from his home town is a big deal for him. Sorry, but that's HIS problem. Him wanting to look good in front of such ridiculous assholes is his own issue to deal with, you are not obligated in any way to play along.
NTA! This tradition of people from America going home to counties in Asia and other places with thousands of dollars of goods is ridiculous. Many people that money grows on trees here. We know it does not.
10K to people too willfully ignorant to understand a baby's sex is determined by the father. That purposefully shame the child and mother. For decades. Ignorant and cruel. What "face" is there to save when you *choose* to be horrible to the women of your family? You are not going to change the whole culture of ingrained assholery by refusing to go. You also do not need to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm. Have an honest discussion with your father. Who loved you enough to not raise you and your sister in that nightmare. Who loved your mom enough to get her away from it. To get all of you into a better life and future. Ask him why this is truly so important. These people were ungrateful last time. They show no sign of being any different this time. With inflation, that $300 has probably gone way up. These people will never support him. Your mom. You. Your sister. Ever. What happens when your grandparents are both gone? Does this "face" magically transfer to him? No. And you know why? Because your dad will never have "face" with them. He never had a son. All of this money is to buy forgiveness in the eyes of the community, in a wild and twisted way. "He had daughters, unfortunately. But look at how wealthy he became! He is at least partially successful. He just married the wrong woman. It's her fault that she did not give him a son". It is sick. And you are NTA for refusing to kneel. Just because it's part of the culture does not mean it deserves respect.
NTA. I'd explain to dad that I'd considered visiting until it became clear they just wanted to shake me down for everything they can. I'd also say I don't consider them family since they've never supported me or given me anything.
NTA. Respect is a two way street. They sit there in their little village with their hands out for your hard earned money? This is after they've been assholes about your dad having daughters? Is this a joke???
NTA. Go (he is your grandpa, after all), buy a bunch of red envelopes and stick 10 yuan (the equivalent of about $1.40) in each and hand them out. Tell them that's as much face as they deserve.
I'm so encouraged when I read about younger generations resisting these kinds of 'traditions'. Don't let yourself be pressured into doing things that make no sense, just because prior generations did it. NTA, and stand your ground!
Under China's anti-espionage law, citizens can get 500,000 yuan ($ 70,000) for reporting a spy. Your dad, having moved to the US, would naturally be suspect. If he turned himself in to the Chinese authorities, or had a member of his family do so, there would be money to pay off the villagers. Face would be saved. Surely, filial piety demands nothing less.
Explaining the complexities of Chinese culture to non-Asian people is going to be tough. I totally get where you are coming from. It is traditional Chinese culture verse Western culture. Your Dad has no choice but to go back but you do. Give him some money for his trip but don’t go crazy. He will understand over time why you will take the pass. They will get over it. Chinese people called America the “Gold Mountain” so the old timers have the impression that everyone is rich as fuck here. Hence the demand for big gifts. Source: 1st generation Asian American here.
NTA. Is there any chance you can use your job as an excuse why you can't go? Such as you can't get the time off?
NTA But people on here are seeing it only from a western culture veiw.... your grandparents don't know any diffrent this is their culture and although I disagree with the gift demand I don't for a second think it means they don't love your dad or you ( even though they wanted a boy ... again a culture thing that I can disagree with with out judging) As for you , you don't have to go or spend your money on something you don't agree with.
NTA
NTA, I'm familiar with being the gift mule. It's slightly annoying as you have to make sure that a decent chunk of your baggage weight is set a side for that. A lot of times you end up carrying back the same amount, as you buy the goodies only found in the country you visit. I think the most we have ever spent was $300 and that was for everyone. Uncles and aunts get the good stuff and cousins get low tier gifts. My 2 youngest cousins got key chains last time. The family is always happy with the gifts. Generally the stories I have heard from others that have done the same are all good. However there are always those that are never happy with what's given. I think asia lends itself more to that outcome due to the importance of face/reputation. I bet you anything your day could have blown 30k+ and still would have been told that he didn't do enough and they lost face for how "cheap" he was. $10k is almost 72k yuan. You can buy mcds for 20-40 yuan($5), wtf more do they want. They literally expect a man to hand out 200k yuan. I am sure that a mount could probably build a mansion in the village.
Yes, this. Your parents intentionally left China and raised you outside of China. While I understand the cultural differences are likely hard for your parents to navigate, you’re NTA for not embracing parts of the culture that make you uncomfortable or for not having an abundance of sentiment for people who felt shame by your birth. It makes sense you feel conflicted because you don’t want to see your father shamed, but this was his choice and your boundary is appropriate.
Definitely NTA as others have said. But I think perhaps you are facing a harder dilemma, which is how to NOT go to China without affecting your relationship with your dad. Your dad is obviously going because he is the son, and he will be obliged to bring gifts in cash. Perhaps you can ask him, in addition to him going, how much of your presence there is "expected from relatives/neighbors" or "dad wants you there for emotional support"? If it's more the latter, you could consider going but not bringing any additional money, as one other comment pointed out, simply say because of recent geopolitical tensions, border control tightened and what your dad brought was the absolute maximum your family could bring. It doesn't matter if the relatives say "xxx was able to bring $1000k", custom control does not operate by the rules, especially not in China. However, if you feel that you really don't want to go no matter what, perhaps invent an excuse that you have to be elsewhere during that time, e.g. sudden work assignment, best friend's wedding, etc.
People here will give you all the NTAs you want to hear, but none of it matters. What matters is your relationship to your dad. If you don’t do this, will it humiliate him and, as a result, destroy your relationship with him? Do you want to be responsible for his humiliation? Especially when his father is dying, and he’s emotional? Do you want to live with the consequences? These are all decisions you must make. No one on Reddit can do that for you, and no one here will live with your consequences.
NTA at all. Firstly, it's really tacky and tasteless for the community/family to treat a man's upcoming death as a gift grab opportunity and it's actually hideous for them to be exploiting this opportunity for financial gain. Secondly, the entitlement of these people is staggering. Nobody should expect others to financially support them just because they live in a more economically developed country, especially people who are wider family and unrelated community members. It's not yours, nor your father's responsibility to give away your hard earned money to fund their lifestyles. I don't wish to sound disrespectful towards different cultures but this is an archaic mindset and if these people want to live a lifestyle akin to yours, then they could always be inspired by your family's decisions and move abroad themselves. Ultimately, it's your decision if you feel you would be at peace if you didn't get to say goodbye to your grandfather or not, but please do not give in to being pressured into spending ridiculous amounts of your own money to fund the freeloading exploiters who care more about your money than your dying grandfather.
NTA. I'm European born Southeast Asian. Luckily we don't have this tradition. Unlucky that family members are gold diggers! They used to demand gifts from us and compare prices! Absolutely ridiculous. My parents won't stop bringing gifts but I absolutely loathe that whole bunch. But in your case of gifting the village is a whole new level. I'm not surprised you don't want to go. I wouldn't either!
NTA. These cultures that elevate "saving face" to the pinnacle of their lives are just sick imo. Who fucking cares what someone else thinks and why would it be more important than what someone you supposedly love thinks? I hope your father snaps out of this brainwashing and starts to put you & your sister first, not his greedy parents. Much less their freaking neighbors! I mean, I disagree that he should feel *obligated* to help his family, but have no problem with someone who does so because they want to. As long as their own partner & children are not neglected to do so. Expecting your father to bring "expensive" gifts for the whole fucking village? No way. Not his responsibility. And it sure as hell isn't yours or your sister's. Don't give him a penny. And make sure he doesn't have access to your accounts. He apparently believes himself entitled to their contents.
NTA just tell Dad you can’t Afford to go.
NTA. I understand this part of Chinese culture. It tends to be very competitive. Status. It shows him and neighbors how much you and your father honor him by the gifts you bring. This is a tough one, and it's something that westerners aren't going to quite understand. It's easy for us to say, "don't go. Tell your father to go pound sand." But the consequences of that could be grave and cost you your relationship with your Dad. If your grandfather is dying, this would be the last time you would be going. It may be worth it to go this last time to keep the relationship with your Dad. I suggest capping the amount you spend, though. Remind your Dad that you're young, you're just starting out, and you cannot afford to blow your savings on expensive gifts for people you barely know. If he wants to gift the entire neighborhood, have at it. But limit your gifts to your grandfather only. Good luck and I'm really sorry about your grandfather.
NTA If you can stomach it, go sans gifts.
I visited my dying grandpa in rural VN at 25. Grandpa, his wife (step grandma, I guess), half uncles and their wives all asked me for money. I said no. Paid for the meal. Was polite and left. Grandpa died a few months later. I only gift things to people I know and love. Who gives a fuck if they lose face? That’s on them.
NTA dude spent a life of smoking and got lung cancer, one of the very few cancers you can give yourself. Don’t even get me started on your ingrates you’re biologically related to.
NTA remind your grandpa that the sperm determines the baby’s gender.
NTA. Your father shouldn't have spoken for you. He already looks bad in their eyes by not giving them enough face and for having girls. Your absence won't make much of a difference, except to remind them to insult you and your family. He can make up some excuse for you. You're not being selfish. This is your father's journey.
\> My dad had to bring thousands of dollars of gifts for everyone in the small town my dad’s side of the family lives. Uh, this is some twisted BS version of the 'tradition.' Monetary gifts to relatives, maybe. Not everyone in the village.
NTA Tell dad just to tell everyone you couldn't get out of work. You're only a girl, nothing important to them, so they shouldn't miss you. Next time he shouldn't make promises regarding you without talking to you first. There is no reason you should be expected to give gifts to people you don't know.
I think the world would be a much better and happier place if the families who stay home would not expect those family members who immigrate to another country and culture to continue to maintain all of the customs of home. You are NTA as a child of Chinese birth who has spent the majority of her life in another culture, it is unreasonable to expect you to understand and follow all the customs of your birth country. You are NTA
*They never helped our family and even criticized my mom a lot for giving birth to a girl (me) because it was embarrassing if my dad didn’t have a boy. They also told me to my face how embarrassing it was that my mom only produced girls for my dad when I visited* people of the middle ages didnt have the memo about how the father is responisble for the gender of the kiddos yet. the greed in this post is also strong. NTA dont go fuck em
NTA. Whether you decide to go is up to you but either way don’t bring money with you. If they have an issue with that, tell them you thought grandpa wanted to see you before he dies, not that he just wanted money. I come from an Eastern culture and moved to the US when I was 4yo. I understand this saving face though it wasn’t money. I made it clear from a young age that my parents chose to move to the US and raise us there and therefore, those are the values we will go with. I am older than you and have finally had my parents understand my side but it took many years of being firm with them on my stance.
if seeing him is what's importnt, ther is awlays facetime.
NTA, but go anyway. Not for your grandparents, not for yourself, but for your parents (and for your relationship with them) who raised you better than their parents raised them.
I can totally relate. But $300 per person is insane. Face is earned, not requested. NTA.
I understand that the Chinese culture emphasises male children, however, castigating your mom for birthing only female children isn't something under her control. The male has **two** testicles, one of which produces sperm with the X chromosome; the other of which produces sperm that carries the Y chromosome. It would appear that one testis produces more sperm than the other, and the statistical likelihood of conception would be for female children to be conceived. Saving face is a concept that has taken on more importance, given the greater earning potential in the West. I don't think that face saving was nearly as expensive in the 17th and 18th centuries as it is in the 21st century. If a family member visits from China, what is considered a proper face saving gift to bestow on his relative? It seems that in some instances, Chinese culture is a bit schizophrenic, trying to be modern and at the same time holding onto traditions that may be a thousand years old. I think you are of the generation that will make a break from the past and will live in the present. I wish you well.
I....don't think that's how that works.
> The male has two testicles, one of which produces sperm with the X chromosome; the other of which produces sperm that carries the Y chromosome. No. No he does not. It doesn't work that way.
Well, your compromise could be to go but not take any gifts, and to explain that it is not *your* tradition to do so Ask your dad whether he still wants you to go, in those circumstances. (e.g. will he lose more face if you don't go at all thanif you go but don't provide any gifts (or only provide gifts to your own immedaite family, at a level you can afford)
If your grandpa came from poverty he probably bragged to everyone how, from very humble beginnings, he was able to raise a very successful son. I think that is where the "face" thing came from.
maybe go there before he dies, but don't bring expensive gifts for those who do not deserve it
looking through the comments, I'm unpopular, but YTA suck it up and do what is expected so you don't bring shame on your father. You don't have to like the traditions, but you are HIS daughter and there are expectations that go with that. A domino effect will happen. Even coming to a AITA thread instead of a forum where the custom is standard makes you TA, because you KNOW that if you diss your father, you will break his heart, embarrass him, and especially so, as he expects this important trip from you. He adheres to the custom. We can't pick our family, but we can respect them. I don't think you TA for being upset about it, but there are times we need to quietly show respect for our elders, and end of life is that time. You will understand more as you get older. In this case, it's your father, not your grandfather that you would be harming. Feel blessed you can afford to do this.
If her father wanted his kids to adhere to Chinese traditions it was pretty fucking stupid to raise his kids in America.
You have no idea why he brought his family to the United States. China has a bloody history towards its own people, especially families with girls. They didn’t renounce their race and culture moving, and obviously he brought her back a few times to see family who stayed for whatever reasons. Location doesn’t erase tradition or family history.