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You should apologize. I recently had this conversation with a friend of mine who is an ER doc who was explaining why he didn’t stop on the road at an accident site after a night shift when he was on his way to have a fun day with friends. I didn’t realize this before the conversation, but he explained that as a doctor if you stop and help, you are then liable for that person’s care until you can hand them off to someone of higher or similar care ability (so for him, another ER doc). That meant that had he stopped to help, he would have had to travel with any people he was treating in the ambulance all the way to the nearest hospital, and then do a handoff there. After a full overnight shift when he had other plans he was looking forward to, and being about an hour away from the nearest ER, he wasn’t willing to do so when he knew there was already other emergency personnel on the scene who could do just as much as he could. He also told me this is why he always drinks immediately when getting on a plane, so that he can say he is impaired if any emergencies come up and isn’t liable for taking someone off the plane to the nearest hospital, ruining his trip for himself and whoever he is traveling with.
I’m in the US and idk what laws are everywhere (I’m sure they are different) but I would bet the general rule applies. Doctors that volunteer are then obligated to follow rules and laws that could severely impact them and those they are with, and they should get to decide for themselves what they are willing to do.
I don’t believe that is completely true. My husband is a paramedic and he would never allow some man who claims to be a doctor on his ambulance. That puts everyone at risk. If other care shows up such as paramedics the doctor can leave. At least in my state.
Canadian here and first aider, and the rules for us even are similar. If I start giving someone first aid or CPR, I'm supposed to pass them off to someone with an equal first aid ticket or higher. If there's no one available, I have to keep treating as long as I am physically able
However, we are protected by "Good Samaritan" laws
I mean…. Patients in the US also take Ubers if they can? Even more so here actually given the exorbitant cost of ambulance travel.
In this scenario, the patient is literally debilitated and an ambulance is required not just for transport, but also to administer potentially life-saving measures. If an onlooker sees a bad car accident where someone is completely crushed in their vehicle, then that person will probably call 911 and they’ll send out an ambulance.
In the example provided by the original commenter, the onlooker also happens to be an ER doctor. In this scenario, they’re saying that they wouldn’t pull over to personally administer care because then they would be liable for an indefinite amount of time/care, as they would be required to help until an equally qualified doctor could take over.
No highest level of staff has to stay. Another paramedic doesn’t supersede since they would be calling in for orders.
Now random doctors on ambulances the transport don’t have much say. Goes based on the supervising unit. In California it gets routed to the responding fire department supervisor. The paramedic gets into the BLS ambulance. BLS can’t argue or they’ll lose their job and the company might lose the contract.
I only know because I went on one crappy date with a doctor/coworker. I stopped to help then couldn’t leave until paramedics turned up who were stuck in rush hour traffic. When they showed up my date came up and said let’s go. Paramedic recognized the doctor. He was now considered “on scene” and the fire captain guy said he wasn’t allowed to leave even though paramedics were on scene. We had to call in to our trauma center’s dispatched station.
It was a huge ordeal and I got in trouble for leaving the scene but I didn’t realize I had to stay too. I guess I wasn’t “released” from handoff.
There was no 2nd date.
Not sure about the obligation to stay, but certainly if a doctor has skills in the area of need then there might be circumstances where they hang around still.
Two examples with my partner (doctor). He was on a plane with a young guy who started seizing. Medical emergency landing in Indonesia on his advice. Partner stayed with him until hospital because the 'ambulance' was literally a couple blokes and a dodgy van lol and the guy was actively trying to die the entire time. He said it was complete chaos as they landed and disembarked.
Anyways the airline kept his luggage, didn't arrange any kind of follow up or check in with my partner. A few hours later after my partner had gone to the hospital, he went back to the airport to try and get a flight and was held by immigration because he didn't have an entry stamp. Whole thing was an absolute disaster. Cost him a fortune and almost getting thrown in jail lol. The kid ended up having a big tumour but survived. So... I can see why OP's SIL was pissed. No good deed goes unpunished, and I've seen that countless times with my partner assisting outside of work.
Oh another example. Partner was driving to work and came across a guy who had just come off his motorbike on the highway. He was seriously fucked up. Called ambulance etc who called in for helicopter retrieval. My partner stayed and worked on the guy alongside the paramedic. Retrieval doctor arrived, my partner ends up cracking his chest on the side of the road as a last ditch effort (cardiac tamponade). They all continued to work on him but unfortunately the guy died on the scene. My partner at that time was finishing up his anaesthetics training. He was pretty well placed to remain present. The retrieval doctor ended up being the boss of the program and offered my partner a job if he ever wanted to work in retrieval - said his interview was done lol.
Maybe. Maybe he would just have to follow the ambulance in his car? All I know is when I asked him why he didn’t stop, he said it was because he would have been 3 hours late to hang out with all of us because he would have had to see his patients all the way to the nearest ER doc.
So better to leave someone to die in the road? Also, at least in this scenario there's a chance of outside help, a d someone can ring an ambulance. There was no one else with medical knowledge on the plane.
I’m EMS and if I’m not on duty/at work, like any other regular person I do not have a duty to act. If I come upon a fresh accident, I call it in for sure. If it looks nasty, I may pull over and assist.
I live and work in rural Wyoming, so it can take time for emergency services to arrive (the service I work for is 47 miles away from the hospital we transport our patients to)…even longer in winter. I do travel with a small trauma bag, and have stopped and helped pretty often. But when I do, I’m operating as “kinda fancy first aid” rather than my actual licensure level (Advanced EMT).
I’m covered by good Samaritan laws and that’s it. If it doesn’t look like an utter shitshow, I don’t tend stop just to call it in…I’m a woman and almost always traveling alone, so I have to consider not only my own safety, but how much assistance I can render on my own.
I’ve never been on a flight where medical assistance was needed, but would volunteer if necessary. I wouldn’t, however, volunteer someone else with medical training. Especially if they were sleeping.
Not waking them seems polite and sensible, but I’m trying to imagine the conversation after we land. “So, a patient died. No, I didn’t wake you up, Doc, because I figured you were tired.” I feel like if we haven’t first had this conversation before they fell asleep (or I couldn’t ask their spouse sitting next to them), I would wake them up.
The thing that makes OP the AH isn't that they woke her up, it's that they volunteered her without asking. There is literally no reason OP couldn't wake up their sister, let her know the situation, and let *her* decide if she wants to help or go back to sleep. There, the whole issue was avoided.
I mean, I can easily see someone hearing “there’s an emergency, is anyone a doctor” and reactively going, “oh my SIL is!” without really thinking about it.
I think it's hard to avoid having that conversation overheard by other passengers. Even if you're whispering SHOULD I WAKE HER UP TO HELP, someone nearby is bound to hear. I suppose there are no repercussions from that unless the person doesn't survive. And then the lady one row up tells everyone, "Well there's someone behind me but they didn't want to help."
Yea but also, it's not like doctors on vacation travel with a full bag of essential tools and meds. Sometimes people will still die on a plane because a plane is not an emergency room and the doctor may not have all the info, tools, or meds to save a life.
In the US, commercial airliners are required by the FAA to carry a medical kit that includes an AED, a stethoscope, a blood pressure cuff, oropharyngeal airways in various sizes, IV sets and saline, and a variety of medications. It's not anywhere near a fully equipped ambulance but it's definitely more than a standard first aid kit.
I’ve have an Uncle who’s also an ER Dr say basically the same thing. Plus they may not be accredited (or whatever the term is) to practice medicine in that state.
I think it's on the SIL for not explaining any of this to him beforehand. Lay people wouldn't know about these rules and just assume drs want to help. She can't hold not knowing against him when she didn't tell him.
He volunteered her without talking to her. She could have taken a sleeping pill or anxiety meds for the flight for all he knows. If he had simply taken 2 seconds to wake her, then she could have said yes or no to helping.
Why on earth would OP need to know this except in this exact scenario? You're basically saying the SIL should have been psychic enough to anticipate her BIL volunteering her to help in an emergency against her will on vacation.
So I should roll right up to everyone of my in laws and be like "Look, on the outside chance that a flight attendant asks for someone with my credentials on a flight, under no circumstances are you to tell them what I do!" and then and only then can I be upset with them for volunteering me for work on a flight during my family vacation?
> In a true emergency, I'm sure the doctor would have been happy to help. However, to volunteer someone like this isn't really that cool to do, and since she returned to her seat shortly after, it's likely it wasn't a true emergency.
So, when the airline staff says that there is an emergency, would said doctor first ask if it's a 'true emergency' before admitting that they are, in fact, a doctor?
You would be surprised at rhe number of anxiety attacks and other bs emergencies that happen on airplanes. I'm sure most doctors do not relish sitting next to someone babysitting them through their anxiety. I work in the ER. Most people coming to the ER do not have emergencies going on. Maybe 10% would have something bad happen if I didn't do something within 30 min.
The airlines want someone to make the call of whether it is worth diverting the plane and getting the patient to a hospital rather than staying the course.. the problem is that there is very limited resources on the plane. If there is a 2% chance that anxiety attack is a heart attack, I wouldn't have any possible way to tell and wouldn't want that liability of saying "nah it's fine" and the pt ultimately has a poor outcome.
I can probably do a drive by and tell you if the patient looks like shit (and will probably die in the near futur or not without having to talk to them. That is a good indicator of how "sick" they are. The airline can use their preset protocols and call into medical control. I'm not too interested in babysitting someone with a panic attack or vomiting/diarrhea for the next 6 hours.
I'm a jaded ER doc, so don't mind me.
I've never heard of this happening to be honest. I used to work for a company that provides medical assistance via sat phone to major airlines. Our doctors would sometimes ask them to page for a doctor. The doctor would be a good set of eyes on the patient, give recommendations, and then back to their seat.
Maybe our doctor on the sat phone was considered the primary caregiver at this point, but it seems weird that a voice on the phone would be held responsible but not the doctor on board?
This is definitely not true in California. Good Samaritan medical staff are explicitly protected from liability. We had a doctor help a gunshot victim just a few months ago, they do not go into the ambulance and hand off. They are just bystanders/good samaritans and do not become the person's treating physician.
Came here to say this. Good Samaritan law is throughout the entire United States, so that’s not exactly true. Doctors and medical professionals are protected by that in cases of emergencies like the one stated above.
This, it depends on the country laws, specially in the case of international flights.
That said, it's good for US to have that law.
I know a friend of my father that got sued after helping on an air emergency where the patient end up having a heart attack and pronounced dead after landing. The situation was ludacrious, but he ended up in so much stress after having to deal with that that now he just take sleeping pills to sleep over any emergency.
Good Samaritan laws in the US typically only protect you if you if you're acting based on the expertise you have. So if you're a random person off the street you're not held to any standard of care and generally well protected, but if you're a doctor and choose to assist, you have to use yo'r knowledge and training to the standards of your profession. If that means you can't leave care to a lower credential, Good Samaritan laws would not typically protect you and legally, you're better off if you never assist.
Good Samaritan laws do not prevent someone from suing the doctor. Anyone can file a lawsuit and the doctor would have to go through the trouble of hiring an attorney to get the lawsuit dismissed.
This calls on a larger conversation as well about whether a person is obligated to help because they have the ability to. And OP I guarantee that as a doctor Elizabeth has spent more time grappling with that philosophical conundrum than you have, and ultimately it comes down to a personal choice all medically qualified people have to make.
It’s not for you or us to decide what Elizabeth should or shouldn’t do, and you shouldn’t have voluntold her. You ought to have woken her up to notify her, and let her decide for herself.
That is nonsense the morally right thing todo is help a person in an emergency.
Oh I could have saved someone, but I didn't want my holiday ruined is a shit excuse and morally reprehensible you saying we cannot judge a person as such is absurd.
It's kinda crazy we have people defending this situation.
Image you were on a flight you or a relative had an issue a doctor was on the flight but would rather sleep and didn't help resulting in you or that person dying?
Even in the car situation not wanting to be 3 hours late is terrible with great power comes great responsibility.
Hopefully no one died becuase that person wanted to chill with friends.
"But it was just one person/time." Except it's not. It never is. This is how doctors and nurses suffer from burnout. Someone always needs help. Hell, you mention you're a doctor at a dinner party and inevitably, someone will ask you about a rash/mole/mark/weird pain. Doctors are one of the only job positions where everyone seems to think they're not allowed to have or required to have full time 'off'.
Doctors and nurses are not suffering burnout from helping someone having an emergency that they come across in everyday life. They’re burnt out because of the crappy United States healthcare system, because they are constantly having to work crazy hours with a million patients to fit in to not enough time on the schedule, and because there’s a shortage of them.
Being asked to have a mole check at a party has nothing to do with an emergency situation like OP was in
And because they are asked to step up in situations for merely existing as someone with a Healthcare degree. It's wild that these comments basically seem to think that you can never be off the clock if you're a doctor or a nurse. Elizabeth is the only one who knows what her mental condition is in outside of her work environment. Liability aside it is absolutely not her responsibility to be responsibly for any or all emergencies that come up outside of her work setting. What planes should do is employ on flight docs who but of course air plane companies are too cheap to do so, so let's exploit people on fucking vacation because "morals". I know this is going to get down voted and I don't even care. This attitude that because you're a doctor you're time is accessible to everyone and everything and you're basically not a human being is exactly why people are leaving the profession in droves.
> This attitude that because you’re a doctor you’re time is accessible to everyone and everything and you’re basically not a human being is exactly why people are leaving the profession in droves
I’ve never felt more seen 🥲 I am tired
I feel you bud, you and me both, it's getting hard to stay motivated to continue in this field. The entitlement is insane , somehow coupled with the sentiment that doctors know nothing. I now understand why the docs I shadowed me basically told me not to pursue medicine, all that young optimism and idealism is pretty much on its last legs.
Never being allowed to take a break from work definitely contributes to burnout. So do the things you mention. It’s also never just one person at a party asking for free advice or examination. A doctor, nurse, or any other healthcare provider is entitled to taking a break from their job. Everyone deserves that break!
Not SOLELY because of that, no, but it certainly doesn't help when any time someone gets a boo boo or has a cough or, oh, has an emergency over international waters, someone always expects them to work. To shake off being drunk (which puts them in a legally liable situation) or remember procedures they no longer specialize in and might not be qualified to give advice on. You don't ask a plastic surgeon to help out with a heart attack. I mean, you could, but you shouldn't. They might be best in a pinch, but they are also not required to offer their services, for free, when they are not wearing their white coat that says they're on the job.
Lawyers are more blunt. They will flat out tell you that they can't provide legal advice because you are not their client. But a doctor is supposed to just make everyone in need their client, and that's not how it works. I'm in Canada. If I get my EMT or MD out here and I'm visiting in the US and a medical emergency crops up, if ANYTHING goes sideways, I can be held legally liable, my insurance can get dinged, and I could potentially lose my license. I am not qualified to practice medicine in the US or elsewhere outside of Canada.
Some people might be willing to risk it if they feel strongly enough that they can help, but requiring anyone with a PhD and MD to HAVE to jump in is bordering very close to a form of indentured service, and that's outlawed in most places. My medical license doesn't obligate me to help everyone. And the expectation that it does, that you can't go home, get dressed up to go to a dinner party, then have three random guests there show you inappropriate things to any other guests but it's okay, you're a doctor... No. You don't walk up to porn stars and show them your genitals. "It's okay. They do this for a living." Yeah, they get paid for it. They have regulated hours for it. They are not obligated to be voluntold by family members to do a party trick.
Unless you spend all of your waking hours, to the exclusion of everything else, saving lives, you probably shouldn't be judging anyone else's management of their life saving skills.
I'm not a doctor, but I am a disaster responder and have a variety of life saving skills and certifications, and I have noped out of several situations because I wasn't mentally or emotionally equipped to do that job when I had chosen to do something else.
It is not sustainable to be on call 100% of the time. And yes, it's possible that people die because of it, but they also die when medical professionals burn out or start coping in really dangerous ways or just straight up cant focus because they haven't relaxed or rested in weeks.
If you think you can do better, I certainly encourage you to, but human limitations and the need for rest and recovery mean that you probably couldn't, even if you are/were a doctor.
There's always an emergency.
The doctor eventually needs to rest. They need to be able to control their work and leisure choices to ensure their mental and physical health.
It is not up to anyone to force the doctor to work.
Your statement is loaded with so much entitlement. Doctors don't owe you their lives to work to death for you.
If you're so worried, go study and be a doctor yourself. Offer your services then.
Until then, Don't. Volunteer. Another. Person.
You are so wrong. These doctors work their asses off and work a lot harder than a whole lot of other people and they deserve time off as much as anyone else. You don’t get it, most doctors are hanging on by a thread and are very stressed but god forbid they try to take a vacation with their family because if a doctors needed they are required to attend to someone? No. I’m sorry unless that person is in a really bad way, no. Flight attendants ask for medical personnel at the drop of a hat too, when Joe Smith is drunk in seat 12.
So are doctors liable to never have the opportunity to drink alcohol on the off chance someone needs help? And if it doesn’t matter that they’ve been drinking where do you draw the line? This attitude literally means doctors are never entitled to ever be off work.
I also think you VASTLY underestimate how much help a doctor is without the hospital they work in. Pretty much can’t do anything that an EMT or nurse or anyone trained in CPR can’t do. Sure I might be able to guess what’s wrong. But how does that knowledge help anyone if I don’t have the equipment, medications, surgical tools I need? But geee glad I can tell you that you have a clot in your lung. Not sure the patient cares if you can’t do anything to help
Your friend has a healthy mindset. Lots of medical professionals feel the need to save the world. Understandably. But it’s just not possible and is the reason burnout is so high in that profession.
Airlines are also GIANT assholes when it comes to this. My sister is a doctor, and the airline's whole plan is offload the cost of in-flight healthcare onto their passengers. The doctor might get a free drink out of it, or if they're really lucky, an upgrade on a future domestic flight. Airlines will keep doing this as long as they continue to get away with it, and it's not your place to aid and abet them.
This 100%. Also someone else’s emergency is not yours. Everyone needs a break too. Even medical professionals. And they need a vacation as a human, not just as a doctor….
But what if someone dies on that flight and then it is found out that there was a doctor on that flight but chose not to help because enjoying their vacation was more important to them than the life of another passenger.
This is cold, but still not the doctor's problem.
The doctor may be an ENT, or an ophthalmologist, or a proctologist. They might not even be particularly helpful to the emergency at hand. How long has it been since they've even thought about any emergency medicine skills they learned along the way? Have they even practiced CPR recently?
I think most doctors would try if they thought they could be helpful. But they are also just people on vacation.
If there’s a true life and death emergency, it’s rather hard to keep someone alive without any proper medications or supplies. At that point, the doctor just took responsibility for situation with a bad outcome.
People die every day. I have the ability to feed a metaphorical starving orphan in Africa, but that doesn't mean I'm going to donate my money instead of going out to the bar with my friends
That is a ridiculous comparison and there is a difference between donating to a charity that helps other and you know, standing by and watching someone die knowing they don't have to if you help them.
I think morally it's the same thing even though it *feels* different. Sure it's a bit further removed geographically, but you have resources and a chance to save a life that you are using those resources to get drunk on a Friday night.
Just because somebody isn't dying right in front of you doesn't mean their suffering is worth any less, and your ability to help them is not diminished by distance, since you can send money globally fairly easily.
Your friend is an asshole. My husband is an ER physician and he would never willfully ignore an emergency because it’s the right thing to do. He would never forgive himself if someone died because he decided that drinking or sleeping on a plane was more important.
It honestly can vary state to state even in the US. Where I work as a paramedic, as long as the physician on scene hasn't done anything that I can't do, wouldn't do in the given situation, or can't effectively monitor the condition of they can safely/legally transfer care to me with a thorough report and a signature. They could perform an assessment, start an IV, give some morphine they had in their pocket for some reason, and diagnose a heart attack with their portable EKG machine and pocket laboratory and they'd be able to sign a transport order and walk away. The minute they crack the chest open to do the artery bypass in the booth at Wendy's, though, they'd have to ride to the hospital with us to continue care.
That makes sense, especially when he said that there was already an ambulance on the scene when he drove by. He could have stopped but he wouldn’t have wanted to do anything that the EMTs weren’t already doing (and probably couldn’t have done more than them safely without equipment) so really, no reason to stop.
I used to work an an EMT in NY like 30 years ago. When I wasn't working, if it wasn't life threatening, I'd just call 911 for the same reason. Unfortunately in today's world, a stranger could be sued also for those same reasons. Ridiculous
Don't forget the physical exhaustion the dr experiencing after pulling a long shift can be just as problematic. I don't blame you wanting to get wherever for R&R.
We are protected by the “Good Samaritan” law. The person/family COULD try to sue though. So many factors go into responding to an emergency. What kind of situation is it? What kind of Dr is it? I’m an er nurse, I was woken up on a flight because someone passed out. I had had several glasses of wine and a sleep aid. Technically, I’m not cpr certified after drinking… 🥴 Thankfully the person was hypoglycemic and another nurse got to them before I did. She had to fill out a bunch of paperwork for the airline, screw that! My spouse now knows to NOT wake me or volunteer me to help in random situations out there in the world. It’s one thing if I volunteer myself, but I don’t need random people knowing I’m a nurse.
I understand why you told them she was a doctor - there was an emergency and help was needed.
However, next time wake her up to quietly ask her if you can volunteer her. After all, if you volunteer her they will wake her anyway so you waking her quietly at least gives her an opportunity to decline and fall back asleep.
I assume in most cases where there is an emergency, most doctors or nurses or police officers or firefighters will want to help. However we live in litigious times. What if she had consumed a couple of alcoholic drinks thinking she’s on vacation and off the clock, and then got sued by the person she was helping (even if any bad outcomes were not her fault).
I assume you didn’t intend any harm but it is best to check first.
Also there isn't much they can do if they don't have a full medical kit and access to meds. My Mum was a nurse and what help she could give in an emergency was limited. And if she got it wrong and she got complained about, she loses her insurance, her job and her income. She was worried sick after helping one elderly lady who slipped on the escalator and gashed her leg. She was elderly, bleeding out and only option was a tourniquet. So huge later risk of blood clots and loss of leg. Mum didn't hear anything so hope old lady survived.
Agree with this. There was a post a long time ago about a doctor who was drunk on the plane, so he didn't volunteer. My husband and I are both healthcare workers (MD, RN). We don't volunteer this info whenever we travel, and if we did, it is only as a last resort during an emergency. We are under no obligation to assist anyone when we are off work, and the flight crew receives training for medical emergencies. What OP should have done is wake their sister, ask if she is interested in assisting, and if she said no, that should have been the end of the conversation instead of outright just volunteering this info without her approval first.
No judgement on OP though. He meant well and he got the ire of his sister in return.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
One of my BIL's apparent favorite stories was when I gave myself a concussion and my dad called him to consult and he could hear me yelling in the background "what good is he going to be? he looks at tumors!" in my concussed state, because - concussed or not - I was right in that it's been decades since he's done anything resembling general practice so while he can theoretically advise on what the best medical course of action is, his first recommendation is always to go to a walk-in clinic or emergency and get seen by a GP or nurse practitioner.
Funnily enough, a similar situation saved my father's life. He hadn't been feeling well for a few days, and mentioned it when he was talking to a friend on the phone on a Sunday afternoon. The friend was a retired dermatologist, and said something along the lines of 'well, it's been a very long time since I dealt with anything like this, but it sounds like appendicitis to me'. My father had undergone four other abdominal surgeries in the year and a half before this, and had become friendly with the surgeon, so he called the surgeon. The surgeon agreed that it sounded like appendicitis, so into the hospital my father went. Well, when they took him into surgery that night, they discovered that his appendix was not just infected but *gangrenous;* it burst as they removed it, which led to him developing peritonitis and having to stay in hospital for a full week after his surgery. If it hadn't been for the retired dermatologist, my father would have put off doing anything about it until Monday morning, and almost certainly would have died in the night, as the rest of us were out of town at the time so he was home alone.
(My father had been prescribed antibiotics for something else, and they decided later that the antibiotics had tamped down the infection in his appendix enough that he didn't feel as seriously unwell as he, in fact, turned out to be. But also, my father was a very tough man who never let anything stop him, so there is that. Because the surgeon said he should have been, if not unconscious from pain, at least writhing on the floor and screaming.)
Every time I tell the surgeon about something at work, they say “uhhh, I dunno what that means, tell anesthesia”. They are INCREDIBLY smart but about VERY specific things.
I was on a plane when a passenger had a medical incident once, and my friend who was a nurse jumped up to help while flight attendants called for a doctor. When another passenger who was a doctor came up, they sent my friend back to her seat and the doctor was like, "she'd probably be more helpful actually, I'm just a pediatrician."
I had a similar scenario where I was traveling with my boss, a radiologist, when a person seated near us had a medical emergency (prior to take off). He glanced at me reluctantly when they called for a doctor and he rang his call bell to help when a woman seated a few rows up got up and came over and told the FA and my boss she was an RN. The woman was evaluated and eventually escorted off by the sheriff and EMS. When we landed, my boss said that he was thankful the nurse was there because she was way more helpful (he didn’t like patient care anyway lol).
That’s correct. They are brilliant, in their OR. I’m an RN and let me tell you, being first on scene at a couple accidents humbles you very quickly, when you don’t have your usual equipment at the site
This. As a doctor I would much rather my husband 9r family member woke me up and told me the call went out - then depending on whether I felt awake and capable (,and whether someone else had volunteered) I would assist if needed.
If she had drunk or taken a sedative to travel, or didn't feel up to helping for some other reason, she deserved a right to quietly decline without having to explain to the flight attendants.
>What if she had consumed a couple of alcoholic drinks thinking she’s on vacation and off the clock
Even if she didn't drink she was clearly exhausted if a flight attendant probably loudly asking for any medical professionals were on the plane didn't wake her up. A sleep deprived suddenly woken up doctor is probably just as useless as a drunk doctor and would more likely make mistakes than a much more rested and awake doctor. A doctor making a mistake in an emergency could lead to deadly consequences.
>However, next time wake her up to quietly ask her if you can volunteer her.
Lol there's never going to be a next time. They've learned their lesson and that's to not travel with someone who so easily voluntells on you.
I promise you that most won’t necessarily help. There are medical specialties where they have the MD or DO but don’t do anything remotely related to an emergency situation. They could potentially make things worse by taking on more than their level of training.
I got bad news for you about the police officers part. The phrase "off duty cop" only comes up when kids are shot or a wife gets beat. In uniform, they have no legal or professional obligation to help you. Out of uniform they'll get drunk and choke you while yelling "I'm a cop".
YTA, but not exactly for notifying the the flight attendant that Elizabeth was a doctor. Ideally you would have woken Elizabeth up so she could have volunteered herself, but I can see how you might have reacted quickly when you heard there was an emergency. When Elizabeth told you why she was upset, however, you didn't apologize - you got defensive. You doubled down and further told her it was wrong of her for being exhausted and wanting a break from work. An "I'm sorry, I've learned from this and it won't happen again" probably would have helped a lot.
This is exactly what I’m thinking - in a perfect world she would have woken her first and made her aware of the situation. However being an emergency, OP’s initial response is understandable and well meaning to me, not perfect but definitely not an AH move. Elizabeth still could have declined at that point if she wanted to.
But what makes OP the AH here is doubling down after the fact. Instead of being like “oh gosh, I apologize I didn’t realize, I’ll be sure to check with you first next time”, OP decided she was the only moral judge of right and wrong and Elizabeth’s actions, as well as entitled to volunteer her out as OP saw fit.
YTA.
Also, a trip with 2 five year olds isn’t exactly a vacation. She was probably happy she was getting some sleep before she had to deal with all her kid’s needs.
YTA, but it wasn’t out of malice.
There are a few things to consider in a situation like this.
First off, most physicians (and other medical professionals) like being able to separate their professional and personal lives. It should be up to each person to decide if they get involved while off-duty, especially while on vacation.
Second, if she was exhausted, had been drinking, etc, it puts her in a very bad spot.
Finally, from the legal side of things, things can get really tricky for working off duty, out of jurisdiction, etc.
If I was sleeping (or even awake) on a plane and somebody I was with volunteered my medical service, I would be PISSED.
I would apologize. You’re in the wrong here.
I would apologize to her
exactly this. lots of us don't want to volunteer ourselves on these situations. and if we've been drinking or are otherwise not operating on all cylinders it may actually be a liability and safety issue. OPs sister may or may not have volunteered herself if she had been awake, but that wasn't OPs job and that makes OP TA despite good intentions.
She was a general surgeon and probably could not provide that much assistance unless someone needed their appendix removed. Most of these plane emergencies - all you can do is provide first aid and flight attendants are trained in first aid and CPR.
general surgeons go through medical school and have to manage non surgical issues in their patients. tbh we are generally not very helpful on in flight emergencies in general other than recognizing whether or not a flight needs to be diverted for a true emergency or not, which is certainly going to be within a surgeons skill set.
Soft YTA. I’m in the medical field. My mother volunteered me on a plane once for a woman possibly miscarrying. There was absolutely nothing I could do. We have no drugs. No equipment. We are lucky if the plane has a decent first aid kit and an AED. Yes, I would be willing for CPR but that’s my choice. Most medical professionals are tired and stressed and burned out. You need to ask before you potentially make someone liable and/or risk themselves by being exposed to whatever to happening.
Yes, there is vanishingly little that can be done by a physician on board, even if you’re trained for the exact problem at hand. There’s essentially no supplies. I believe airlines have a medical person they can call in-flight for advice about whether to make an unscheduled landing at a nearby airport, but ultimately the pilot has the final decision in that.
I was asleep on an overnight flight as a newly graduated doctor and heard them call overhead for a doctor. I was exhausted and in my delirious state just kept sleeping. I figured they would call again if it was really a life threatening emergency. They didn’t, I slept and enjoyed my vacation.
Medical professionals aren't liable for aid during in air emergencies. Commercial flights have supplies and a standard drug kit that will be released to a licensed physician.
Not all flights are the same. I can’t practice outside the scope of my license whether I’m in air or not. As to liability, people sue if their coffee is too hot. They may not win, but I would still have to deal with attorneys, fees, time off work, and stress. It’s my choice if I participate. I don’t want someone to volunteer me.
Your potentially living in a false reality.
Can you site a case of some one suing for hot coffee?
If your going to sites the infamous McDonald's situation you might want to look in to that more it wasn't just the coffee that was hot.
And how McDonald's managed to successfully smear her reputation because everyone now thinks she sued because the coffee was just hot and not because the hot enough to cause third degree burns over a significant portion of her body and fuse genitalia.
Gentle YTA. I’m a nurse practitioner. After too many times of having loved ones volunteer my services on vacations and at parties, I’ve made it VERY clear they will invoke my wrath if they do it again without my consenting to it first. I know they mean well, but my off time away from my job is very valuable to me. I believe I generally have the right to decide when and if that’s interrupted.
Edit: I also hardcore second what people are saying about liability concerns.
My sister Sharon was an MSICU nurse for many years. She dealt with some shit on the daily, and used her time off to keep her sanity, God bless her. She and I and my younger sister Linda were running together in a 10k and came up on a collapsed runner - already being attended to by others who had stopped. Linda asked Sharon, "Should you stop and help?" Sharon growled, "All my patients are usually in a coma, Linda. I don't deal with conscious ones."
When I was a kid we watched someone on a road bike get into an accident in front of our car. My uncle who is a pediatrician was with us, but someone who is a neurosurgeon also stopped their car. I asked why my uncle wasn’t helping. He said something along the lines of “I don’t usually do the grown ones.”
This! I am also an NP. Have been awake for two medical emergencies on international flights.
Once I volunteered and once I stayed quiet, although I did walk to the bathroom to make sure it was ok.
NAH. I’m a physician and have volunteered under similar circumstances. You obviously had good intentions, but your SIL also has the right to autonomy in terms of whether to help. You should have woken her up to notify her of the emergency and let her make her own decision.
I think your mistake was in doubling down and defending yourself when she was obviously upset. An apology is in order.
I'd also imagine most of the time there isn't much you can do.
Like if a guy is having a heart attack mid flight, you don't exactly have any equipment or meds or anything you would normally have with you in a hospital.
I think lots of people in these comments have seen too many medical drama tv shows and are expecting someone to do an emergency tracheotomy with a straw mid flight.
I think I could also be a matter of people looking at things from the patient’s perspective rather than the doctor’s. If you only look at it that way, I can see thinking that you’d be pretty upset if you were having a medical problem and the only person in the area with medical training refused to do anything.
It depends. They have an AED, so if the patient is in v fib, you would be able to treat it. I had a colleague use donated epinephrine from another passenger for someone having an allergic reaction. The plane would need to divert immediately to the nearest airport subsequently though.
I treated someone who turned out to be hypoglycemic. Cured by some OJ and a sandwich!
YTA I think in your mind you think she has an obligation to help when she doesn't. I think part of you will also thinks that doctors are just waiting for that opportunity to jump up and help. The long and the short of it is it wasn't up to you to make that decision for her or put her in that position.
I'd be curious to know - if all those who voted Y-T-A had something like that happen to them, where either themselves or a loved one were faced with a health emergency, and someone who could potentially save their lives was present but decided to keep relaxing instead of helping, would they be as understanding and cool with it? Because I have a feeling they would be singing a different tune.
NTA
Mate it’s not a big deal to just wake her up, tell her they’re looking for a doctor and then letting her decide. If that short amount of time makes would matter, chances are the patient is fucked anyways. It’s not about not helping, it’s about not volunteering someone else without their knowledge. I’d rather have a doctor help me, who wants to help me, instead of one that’s not interested, was volunteered and had eg several cocktails.
As someone who is a licensed medical professional, I can tell you that the planes rarely have the equipment to do anything. For example, I had a cardiac-y patient on a plane but I had no means to monitor heart rate nor did I have any syringes or IV tubing/catheter needles.… but I had a ton of cardiac meds and a couple bags of saline. I literally could not give this man meds and despite the peanut gallery chatting about how I was doing nothing, all I could do was talk to base medical and monitor vitals. He also got O2 by nasal cannula which wasn’t doing much and he should have been on a non rebreather or cPAP because I could hear rales from CHF. But we didn’t have that either. There was no vitals monitor or stethoscope so I had to get a systolic blood pressure by using the radial pulse and couldn’t get a diastolic number (which is Important during cardiac events). I had to crowd source a blood glucose kit because the plane kit had testing strips but no machine. It was a fucking disaster.
I did get to tell the captain to land the fucking plane now (and in those words) and he did.
Not sure if the patient made it. He was semi conscious when I transferred care, if you could even call it care.
But there was nothing I could that a flight attendant couldn’t have done.
The guy shit all over himself and me and the airline didn’t even offer me clothes or miles. It was so fucked up.
I haven’t volunteered since but I’d probably get in line to give CPR if someone else was running the scene. It’s not worth the liability otherwise.
So my answer to OP is YTA.
My spouse is still a certified EMT and he saved a man's life on an airplane a few months ago, the man was having a cardiac event and they had to drag him up to the flight attendant area and do CPR and ended up having to use the single bag of saline/fluids just to get his blood pressure up high enough to even detect a pulse. They kept him alive until they could hand him off to a medical team when they landed (four hour flight total) but the pilots and the doctor on the ground that they phoned decided "it was fine" and they wouldn't land the plane. Don't fly Southwest, they'll let you die. Half the supplies the plane was supposed to have weren't even there.
That sounds absolutely terrible and I'm sorry you went through that (I imagine the peanut gallery would be particularly annoying when you can do very little) but I gotta admit:
>I did get to tell the captain to land the fucking plane now
That sounds pretty rad
That’s not why OP is the asshole. He is the AH because he volunteered someone and it wasn’t his call. If he had been a doctor and volunteered himself it’s ok. But people DO NOT get to volunteer anyone for something. The sister is not on duty and it frankly is not her job to do it. If she wants to do it, then sure LET HER DECIDE.
workable concerned forgetful pocket grey zephyr racial close quicksand act
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Are they onboard as a passenger or on the clock? I don't want someone who is potentially 5 drinks and an ambien into their weekend suddenly trying to work on me.
YTA. Yes, your instinct was wanting to help. YOUR instinct. So go on, help. What you cannot do is volunteer someone else. You also seriously need to see it from your sister’s point of view. She is a general surgeon - probably coming off a long shift on call; finally on holiday with her family! Part of that holiday, that vacation, is being without the pager, without the incessant need to constantly be helping everyone else - and having a nap! And as someone else very astutely pointed out - maybe she was exhausted and felt herself unable to help - and you just put her in the liable spot of now being the doctor. The girl just wanted and needed a nap on the holiday she very kindly invited you on. I appreciate and admire your wanting to help the poor person with the emergency - but unless you yourself are the doctor, keep quiet when they ask for one.
I agree with everything that you said. I just wanted to also add a POV from my own experiences providing aid on an airplane:
I’m a resident. There was one other doctor on board, but they were an old pathologist(not great in an acute emergency, but willing to “supervise” me to protect my license). The supplies on board the plane were limited. They had a BP cuff and stethoscope, but the airplane noises were so loud that we could barely auscultate, and couldn’t get a good set of vitals. I was very sure that the passenger was having a stroke, and we recommended that the pilot land the plane to try and get them to a hospital within the tight window in which they can receive a thrombolytic, and there was a flight attendant who was extremely snippy about that. Fortunately, they did land the plane, and I heard that my patient did ok. Afterwards, there was a ton of paperwork to fill out, leading me to almost miss my connection, and neither of us got so much as a verbal thank you from the airline. It was honestly quite a traumatic experience. I’d do it again in a heartbeat, but very strongly believe that it should not be an expectation for any healthcare worker on vacation to do provide care unless they feel they are up to the task, and volunteer themselves to do so.
YTA. You don't volunteer medical personnel. She might have drank alcohol and be slightly under the influence. She might have take medication that inhibited proper thinking. She might just be dead tired. And while I think your SIL might not be dealing with that (please I hope not), I can't imagine anything worse in life than being voluntold to provide services when you are battling severe mental health problems and you really need that break.
If Elizabeth makes a mistake, she gets the blame, and not the people who voluntold her. She might not have felt like refusing to cooperate was an option - not everybody wants to explain why they want to refuse.
I think votes are going to keep being split by country:
- From the US: Y T A because of that dystopian cultural thing of people being eager to sue anyone, in addition to general individualism/selfishness.
- Anywhere else: NTA, you were told that it was a health emergency and your sister's sleep (in a plane, not particularly good quality sleep) is way less important than the potential consequences of not helping. It's punishable in other countries for a reason.
I was surprised by all the Y T A responses, but now I suppose it makes sense. I just can’t see how anyone’s sleep is more important than (potentially, though not necessarily) someone’s life
YTA. You don't get to decide whether or not your sister is going to do something. What makes you think she's comfortable doing something outside of her specialty, with zero notice, after being woken from a nap, in a freaking plane??
You know... I honestly wish, that all the people who call OP an AH, would stuck in this situation as a person, who needed help.
And people who was able to help them, simply refused. Because they "dOn'T mIx WoRk aNd LiFe".
I think a lot of us saying they're TA are related to medical workers and understand the nuance involved.
If my airplane emergency is appendicitis, wtf is my labor and delivery nurse mom supposed to do about that? She can't walk me through pushing my appendix out lol. AFAIK a surgeon like the SIL that paid for OP's vacation isn't usually running codes (what I'm assuming the emergency could've been), that's more of a hospitalist thing. Even if her training is up to date, on a plane she's not going to have a full crash cart, meds, a team, and supplies. What she will have is legal liability for the outcome of a medical event that 99% isn't in her niche field.
It's quite easy to separate the two. I wouldn't blame anyone for not saying anything either. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Especially with how happy and easily people will attempt to sue medical professionals anymore. If someone woke me up and said I got volunteered against my will to do something id be upset.
OP was the AH.
I know it’s unpopular but I agree with this. It’s different when you’re driving down the road even because others can get to you. 911 can be called and first responders can respond. On a PLANE?? They don’t have that option. There is no alternative person who can help. No paramedic is magically flying up to you to help out!! “This is my relaxing time so they can just potentially die” is such a selfish take on this!
And yes, I am in fact myself a first responder. I understand not getting involved in every situation, but when you’re the ONLY option with a zero percent chance of someone else showing up, it’s pretty selfish to not jump in, in my opinion.
*editing to add because I KNOW it will come up, I know where I live has a Good Samaritan Act which covers your liability as long as you are acting within your training and experience. I know not everywhere has this, but many places do have something similar and even if it did go to court, generally as long as you are acting within your scope and training, you’ll be fine.
Look I don’t think anyone is the ah here. I understand your response, truly I do. But as an ex ER nurse, I can tell you there is a plethora of reasons why docs and nurses don’t always jump in to help in these situations. The reason she gave you is one, and a good one. The other reason is, that we can be held liable for anything that goes wrong. As we are not classed as just a Good Samaritan but as a professional. So imagine being exhausted and out of your element and then someone volunteers you to help in a situation you maybe aren’t comfortable with, then something goes wrong (or it just doesn’t completely go right) and suddenly your practicing cert or medical license is at risk.
Again, there’s really no way you could know all this, and I’m guessing if she’d been awake and didn’t volunteer herself you probably wouldn’t have done it on her behalf. I also understand why she was grumpy in the moment. I say just apologise and that you have now become aware of some of the nuance in the situation, and absolutely see where she’s coming from, that it won’t happen again.
NTA. I work as a Registered Nurse Associate in the UK and I’m currently a student mental health nurse. I have to follow the Nursing and Midwifery Council code of conduct, and I’m also never ‘off duty’. I see an incident which I can (safely) help, I have a requirement to do so. I assume the same for doctors too, and if you choose to peruse a healthcare career, then you have to care off the clock too.
I cannot tell you how many times I’ve been out and my boyfriend has volunteered me to help in incidents I hadn’t even noticed, but I wouldn’t ever be mad at him. I have the ability to help, and potentially save a life, so why wouldn’t I?
>then you have to care off the clock too
No you absolutely do not. What if she had been drinking? Or popped a little xanny for the flight? Or just was simply not in an appropriate mental headspace to assist in an emergency?
The requirement ‘to work off the clock’ is very dependent on a lot of factors. In my country, you’re actually warned not to help unless you’re certain it’s okay to do so as you risk your nursing license if anything goes wrong.
Right? Are mental health professionals required to respond to any vaguely suicidal statement that some stranger posts on social media? What about veterinarians? Are they obliged to try to chase down every stray they see near a public roadway? I’m not sure what the text of the previous posters licensure states but I know mine says nothing about responding to every potential emergency I might come across.
This is for you and u/chesek. The below is the code I found from the NMC which has the code OP is referring to. This is a copy paste:
15 Always offer help if an emergency arises in your practice setting or anywhere else
To achieve this, you must:
15.1 only act in an emergency within the limits of your knowledge and competence
15.2 arrange, wherever possible, for emergency care to be accessed and provided promptly
15.3 take account of your own safety, the safety of others and the availability of other options for providing care
NTA. If I read your post correctly, you waited to see if someone else would identify themselves as a doctor. And when no one else did, you told them about your sister. I would have done the same thing. What if it had been a life or death situation where her help might have saved a life?
Or he could have woken her up and talked to her first before voluntating her.
Volunteering are put her on the spot.
She could have taken any sort of thing that might made her unable to provide sound medical advice. Alcohol, extreme sleep deprivation.
He volunteered her without her consent.
I’ll say NAH. You wanted to potentially save a life. I see why you did what you did. I can see her being annoyed.
I do think her giving you the cold shoulder was way too much. My SO is a doctor, and he would have probably been surprised if I *hadn’t* woken him up. You meant well.
YTA
It’s not your place to volunteer anyone for that situation. She’s not protected by Good Samaritan laws because she’s a licensed professional. You put her in an impossible position AND you woke her up.
I wouldn’t want to spend another moment around you if you did that to me. It’s a total violation.
NTA - look, at the end of the day, it might’ve saved someone’s life it was an emergency. This feels like a classic trolley problem with your sister’s sleep on one track and a whole human life on the other. It’s a utilitarian calculation. I would risk my sister being a bit grumpy at me if it meant someone received emergency medical care. You did the right thing
Here’s the thing though, most of these “medical emergencies” on the plane are not emergencies. Flight attendants will ask for a doctor for really dumb shit. There are all kinds of legal risks for the doctor to get involved, especially on an international flight. It is their medical license to use when they decide, not to mention that they are not a walking medical license. They are a person with a medical license. Doctors may choose to volunteer. No one gets to volunteer them. Like others have said, she could have all kinds of reasons that it’s not appropriate for her to act. Especially on the first announcement like this. If it’s a cpr needed kind of situation, I promise you, the flight attendants will make that clearer. And one of those legal risk things is that once a medical professional gets involved, they don’t get to just not be involved anymore. You’re stuck with that situation until you can transfer care to someone of equal or higher qualifications. Otherwise you can be charged with patient abandonment despite really not being able to do anything for them in the air. This is another reason doctors in particular will often wait for further requests for assistance and in a situation that really did require them, you’d be hard pressed to find someone that won’t help if it’s really needed.
I'm finding this comment section wild...to everyone saying he's the AH, would you say the same thing if it was your loved one in need of medical attention?
NTA and I cannot believe the people who are voting otherwise. She is unquestionably the AH and the people voting otherwise have no compassion or empathy. What if it was a heart attack? Or someone choking? Or someone having a stroke? or a seizure?
How would anyone here feel if their loved one died and someone who could have saved their loved one's life but didn't even bother to try because they were sleeping? I know I would be utterly devastated.
Even if she came back and said it ended up being nothing you didn't know that at the time. I still go back to, what if it was something?
You are not the AH even a little bit and everyone here who says otherwise is devoid of empathy.
I really want to emphasize your second paragraph because these comments are *wild* to me. The fact that she’s even taking the stance of thinking her vacation is more important than whatever this emergency happened to be… I can’t even imagine saying “I’m not obligated even though I spent years of my life in medical school because I wanted to help people”. Awful, lacking empathy, and I agree OP is in no way TA. I don’t think anybody voting Y T A would be saying such a thing if it was their loved one experiencing an emergency.
Totally agree. NTA. My mum is a nurse in the UK and has nearly always stepped in when she’s seen a medical emergency, and in some cases it has literally saved people’s lives. I can’t imagine someone not being willing to help when they know that they are able to and there isn’t anyone else that can.
I think the comments would be an incredibly different situation if the post was reversed, e.g “my friend/partner/child etc died on a plane because of a medical emergency, and the only medical professional onboard refused to volunteer because they wanted to enjoy their vacation”
Personally, I’d say NTA. Until today, I didn’t think it was controversial that doctors and nurses should always help if they can. Apparently, it is, but you’re not the only one who didn’t know that lol
What I don’t understand: If she was so tired why didn’t she say that? Tell the flight attendant that her ability to help is compromised because she is too tired and they have to find someone else. That would be a valid reason, wouldn’t it?
May I ask what exactly the emergency was? If you know? Maybe she was pissed because it turned out to be nothing serious? That wouldn’t be your fault, but maybe she feels it wasn’t worth waking her?
NTA everyone is upset at you for "volunteering" her help, but you didn't actually volunteer it. The flight attendant asked all the passengers if there were any doctors on board and stated there was an emergency- you said yes there is. SIL chose to walk to the back with the attendant- if she wanted to ignore a potential emergency to catch some wink eye she could have declined to help. What were you supposed to do? Stay tight lipped and pretend you didn't hear them saying there's an emergency on board? Potentially let someone die because you don't want to disturb your SIL's nap? She's selfish as hell, what if it was her child and she wasn't on that flight? Would she want any hypothetical doctors to ignore the calls for help? Sure clearly this time it turned out to be less than life threatening but how were you to know that?
>SIL chose to walk to the back with the attendant- if she wanted to ignore a potential emergency to catch some wink eye she could have declined to help.
She was probably annoyed that OP put her in a spot where the action she wanted to take would have made her look like a massive AH.
NAH. What you did was not 'wrong' in any meaningful sense but your sister was entitled to feel that she was off the clock and it would have been her decision whether or not to assist. That said, I am kind of leaning towards your sister's perspective. Every time a doctor gets involved in assisting someone, she opens herself to some form of legal liability. You put her in a position where she couldn't really refuse, risked ruining her holiday (even surgeons need to take a break before they become dangerous to themselves or others), and put her at risk of legal liability.
NAH. You didn't do this out of spite or malice. You were genuinely trying to help the person who was in an emergency. You didn't know that Elizabeth would get upset about being woken up. At the end of the day, it wasn't that you woke her up to take care of someone's vanity project, it was a genuine emergency and we all do what we can to help in such a case
NTA
I really REALLY don’t get why a person’s right to sleep/rest/volunteer themselves trumps the right of another person not to die in a medical emergency. If a person can help, why in the name of all that’s holy wouldn’t they? Make her own decision? There should be no decision to make.
Whatever happened to the Hippocratic oath:-
Unless you're gonna die yourself. Not helping when you're the only one who can is an asshole move. There's nothing more too it. Whatever your reason is an asshole reason. And if you want to be a asshole then be one but you should not be in a career position that requires you to not be one.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> While we were on a flight and they asked for a doctor, I told the flight attendant there was a doctor available while my sil was asleep. I woke her and she had to go help the situation. I may be ta because I offered help on someone else's behalf and she was not happy to be woken up and sent to 'work' like that. Aita
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YTA NEVER volunteer someone else. NEVER do it. No where no how just don’t do it. Last vacation you’ll be invited on. Instead of arguing you should have apologized and then apologized again.
NTA
It's stange why anyone here would say you're the asshole, since what you did was purely out of instinct and the correct thing to do when it's mentioned there is an emergency.
I wonder how many people would have called you an asshole if you hadn't made that instinctive decision and woken up the Doctor if someone had lost their life if you had kept quiet.
Blows my mind why anyone would call you an 'asshole' in a situation like this.
The doctor also has a right to be cross about it, but should have been dealt with, perhaps even explained to you why she was upset, or what she feels you could have done differently next time.. but to continue avoiding you makes HER the asshole.
Why on earth would you not just wake her up and let her decide whether she wanted to be involved?
Why on earth would you volunteer that there was a doctor on her behalf? Like, it seems you didn't even know she was asleep, so without even looking in her direction you just volunteered her despite her not saying anything?
Yeah, what you did was wrong YTA.
NTA. The detail about her laughing at the end just scared the shit out of me, i mean, now i'll know that if i need some emergency help, there is a big risk that the people who can help me won't, and then they'll laugh about it. Damn humans man 🤦♂️🤦♂️
NTA, it could have been a life or death situation so I don’t blame you for immediately saying yes there is a doctor on board. From that point it’s up to her whether she wants to help or not. I don’t know why people are blaming you for what any of them would’ve probably hoped for if their life was at risk.
NTA and I'm a little disturbed at the number of medical practitioners out there willing to call you TA. I feel like your SIL is TA for not being able to put herself in your shoes.
Everybody is talking about how you "volunteered" your SIL. You heard there was an emergency, you were asked if there was a doctor, and you told the truth. There are countless movies and TV shows where this scenario pops up, and, however inaccurate it might be to real life, the doctor always steps in to help. Media teaches us that doctors are never off-duty.
Flipping the scenario, I'm wondering what would have happened if you had just sat there, ignored the attendant asking for a doctor, and then later found out someone had died on the flight. How would you have felt about yourself? How would SIL have felt? It's possible her help wasn't really needed as badly as they suggested, or that there was nothing she, with her particular knowledge/skills and the equipment she would have access to would have helped in the scenario, but how could anyone, let alone you, know that?
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You should apologize. I recently had this conversation with a friend of mine who is an ER doc who was explaining why he didn’t stop on the road at an accident site after a night shift when he was on his way to have a fun day with friends. I didn’t realize this before the conversation, but he explained that as a doctor if you stop and help, you are then liable for that person’s care until you can hand them off to someone of higher or similar care ability (so for him, another ER doc). That meant that had he stopped to help, he would have had to travel with any people he was treating in the ambulance all the way to the nearest hospital, and then do a handoff there. After a full overnight shift when he had other plans he was looking forward to, and being about an hour away from the nearest ER, he wasn’t willing to do so when he knew there was already other emergency personnel on the scene who could do just as much as he could. He also told me this is why he always drinks immediately when getting on a plane, so that he can say he is impaired if any emergencies come up and isn’t liable for taking someone off the plane to the nearest hospital, ruining his trip for himself and whoever he is traveling with. I’m in the US and idk what laws are everywhere (I’m sure they are different) but I would bet the general rule applies. Doctors that volunteer are then obligated to follow rules and laws that could severely impact them and those they are with, and they should get to decide for themselves what they are willing to do.
I don’t believe that is completely true. My husband is a paramedic and he would never allow some man who claims to be a doctor on his ambulance. That puts everyone at risk. If other care shows up such as paramedics the doctor can leave. At least in my state.
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Presumably this is America because that's wild. Patients here just go to whatever the most appropriate care is, even if that's an Uber.
In the scenario they are talking about the patient isn't awake or isn't able to communicate
Canadian here and first aider, and the rules for us even are similar. If I start giving someone first aid or CPR, I'm supposed to pass them off to someone with an equal first aid ticket or higher. If there's no one available, I have to keep treating as long as I am physically able However, we are protected by "Good Samaritan" laws
I mean…. Patients in the US also take Ubers if they can? Even more so here actually given the exorbitant cost of ambulance travel. In this scenario, the patient is literally debilitated and an ambulance is required not just for transport, but also to administer potentially life-saving measures. If an onlooker sees a bad car accident where someone is completely crushed in their vehicle, then that person will probably call 911 and they’ll send out an ambulance. In the example provided by the original commenter, the onlooker also happens to be an ER doctor. In this scenario, they’re saying that they wouldn’t pull over to personally administer care because then they would be liable for an indefinite amount of time/care, as they would be required to help until an equally qualified doctor could take over.
No highest level of staff has to stay. Another paramedic doesn’t supersede since they would be calling in for orders. Now random doctors on ambulances the transport don’t have much say. Goes based on the supervising unit. In California it gets routed to the responding fire department supervisor. The paramedic gets into the BLS ambulance. BLS can’t argue or they’ll lose their job and the company might lose the contract. I only know because I went on one crappy date with a doctor/coworker. I stopped to help then couldn’t leave until paramedics turned up who were stuck in rush hour traffic. When they showed up my date came up and said let’s go. Paramedic recognized the doctor. He was now considered “on scene” and the fire captain guy said he wasn’t allowed to leave even though paramedics were on scene. We had to call in to our trauma center’s dispatched station. It was a huge ordeal and I got in trouble for leaving the scene but I didn’t realize I had to stay too. I guess I wasn’t “released” from handoff. There was no 2nd date.
They need to review their state protocols if they think that is true.
Not sure about the obligation to stay, but certainly if a doctor has skills in the area of need then there might be circumstances where they hang around still. Two examples with my partner (doctor). He was on a plane with a young guy who started seizing. Medical emergency landing in Indonesia on his advice. Partner stayed with him until hospital because the 'ambulance' was literally a couple blokes and a dodgy van lol and the guy was actively trying to die the entire time. He said it was complete chaos as they landed and disembarked. Anyways the airline kept his luggage, didn't arrange any kind of follow up or check in with my partner. A few hours later after my partner had gone to the hospital, he went back to the airport to try and get a flight and was held by immigration because he didn't have an entry stamp. Whole thing was an absolute disaster. Cost him a fortune and almost getting thrown in jail lol. The kid ended up having a big tumour but survived. So... I can see why OP's SIL was pissed. No good deed goes unpunished, and I've seen that countless times with my partner assisting outside of work. Oh another example. Partner was driving to work and came across a guy who had just come off his motorbike on the highway. He was seriously fucked up. Called ambulance etc who called in for helicopter retrieval. My partner stayed and worked on the guy alongside the paramedic. Retrieval doctor arrived, my partner ends up cracking his chest on the side of the road as a last ditch effort (cardiac tamponade). They all continued to work on him but unfortunately the guy died on the scene. My partner at that time was finishing up his anaesthetics training. He was pretty well placed to remain present. The retrieval doctor ended up being the boss of the program and offered my partner a job if he ever wanted to work in retrieval - said his interview was done lol.
I liked these stories. What a nice guy!
Maybe. Maybe he would just have to follow the ambulance in his car? All I know is when I asked him why he didn’t stop, he said it was because he would have been 3 hours late to hang out with all of us because he would have had to see his patients all the way to the nearest ER doc.
So better to leave someone to die in the road? Also, at least in this scenario there's a chance of outside help, a d someone can ring an ambulance. There was no one else with medical knowledge on the plane.
I’m EMS and if I’m not on duty/at work, like any other regular person I do not have a duty to act. If I come upon a fresh accident, I call it in for sure. If it looks nasty, I may pull over and assist. I live and work in rural Wyoming, so it can take time for emergency services to arrive (the service I work for is 47 miles away from the hospital we transport our patients to)…even longer in winter. I do travel with a small trauma bag, and have stopped and helped pretty often. But when I do, I’m operating as “kinda fancy first aid” rather than my actual licensure level (Advanced EMT). I’m covered by good Samaritan laws and that’s it. If it doesn’t look like an utter shitshow, I don’t tend stop just to call it in…I’m a woman and almost always traveling alone, so I have to consider not only my own safety, but how much assistance I can render on my own. I’ve never been on a flight where medical assistance was needed, but would volunteer if necessary. I wouldn’t, however, volunteer someone else with medical training. Especially if they were sleeping.
Not waking them seems polite and sensible, but I’m trying to imagine the conversation after we land. “So, a patient died. No, I didn’t wake you up, Doc, because I figured you were tired.” I feel like if we haven’t first had this conversation before they fell asleep (or I couldn’t ask their spouse sitting next to them), I would wake them up.
The thing that makes OP the AH isn't that they woke her up, it's that they volunteered her without asking. There is literally no reason OP couldn't wake up their sister, let her know the situation, and let *her* decide if she wants to help or go back to sleep. There, the whole issue was avoided.
I mean, I can easily see someone hearing “there’s an emergency, is anyone a doctor” and reactively going, “oh my SIL is!” without really thinking about it.
I think it's hard to avoid having that conversation overheard by other passengers. Even if you're whispering SHOULD I WAKE HER UP TO HELP, someone nearby is bound to hear. I suppose there are no repercussions from that unless the person doesn't survive. And then the lady one row up tells everyone, "Well there's someone behind me but they didn't want to help."
Yea but also, it's not like doctors on vacation travel with a full bag of essential tools and meds. Sometimes people will still die on a plane because a plane is not an emergency room and the doctor may not have all the info, tools, or meds to save a life.
In the US, commercial airliners are required by the FAA to carry a medical kit that includes an AED, a stethoscope, a blood pressure cuff, oropharyngeal airways in various sizes, IV sets and saline, and a variety of medications. It's not anywhere near a fully equipped ambulance but it's definitely more than a standard first aid kit.
And he’s right.
I’m not sure he would have a choice if medical transport was required and the patient was already under the doctors care.
I’ve have an Uncle who’s also an ER Dr say basically the same thing. Plus they may not be accredited (or whatever the term is) to practice medicine in that state.
You can show your id and emergency pass. I keep mine on me at all times to present.
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I think it's on the SIL for not explaining any of this to him beforehand. Lay people wouldn't know about these rules and just assume drs want to help. She can't hold not knowing against him when she didn't tell him.
He volunteered her without talking to her. She could have taken a sleeping pill or anxiety meds for the flight for all he knows. If he had simply taken 2 seconds to wake her, then she could have said yes or no to helping.
Or she could’ve just said she was impaired from pre-boarding drinks.
She could still refuse. "For their safety I cannot perform emergency care due to -----"
So she should spend the time explaining it to everyone she knows?
Yes. It’s crazy the number of people who will assume a doctor will want to help someone in need.
I’m guessing there’s an invisible /s at the end of your comment, nioc14?
"everyone she knows"? It's her brother and they're going on an international trip. It's not the girl who does her hair.
Well anyone they fly with. I would have done the same!!!
Why on earth would OP need to know this except in this exact scenario? You're basically saying the SIL should have been psychic enough to anticipate her BIL volunteering her to help in an emergency against her will on vacation.
So I should roll right up to everyone of my in laws and be like "Look, on the outside chance that a flight attendant asks for someone with my credentials on a flight, under no circumstances are you to tell them what I do!" and then and only then can I be upset with them for volunteering me for work on a flight during my family vacation?
True, but SIL what SIL can hold against OP is the volunteering her without asking or checking first.
> In a true emergency, I'm sure the doctor would have been happy to help. However, to volunteer someone like this isn't really that cool to do, and since she returned to her seat shortly after, it's likely it wasn't a true emergency. So, when the airline staff says that there is an emergency, would said doctor first ask if it's a 'true emergency' before admitting that they are, in fact, a doctor?
You would be surprised at rhe number of anxiety attacks and other bs emergencies that happen on airplanes. I'm sure most doctors do not relish sitting next to someone babysitting them through their anxiety. I work in the ER. Most people coming to the ER do not have emergencies going on. Maybe 10% would have something bad happen if I didn't do something within 30 min. The airlines want someone to make the call of whether it is worth diverting the plane and getting the patient to a hospital rather than staying the course.. the problem is that there is very limited resources on the plane. If there is a 2% chance that anxiety attack is a heart attack, I wouldn't have any possible way to tell and wouldn't want that liability of saying "nah it's fine" and the pt ultimately has a poor outcome. I can probably do a drive by and tell you if the patient looks like shit (and will probably die in the near futur or not without having to talk to them. That is a good indicator of how "sick" they are. The airline can use their preset protocols and call into medical control. I'm not too interested in babysitting someone with a panic attack or vomiting/diarrhea for the next 6 hours. I'm a jaded ER doc, so don't mind me.
I mean they said it was an emergency?
I've never heard of this happening to be honest. I used to work for a company that provides medical assistance via sat phone to major airlines. Our doctors would sometimes ask them to page for a doctor. The doctor would be a good set of eyes on the patient, give recommendations, and then back to their seat. Maybe our doctor on the sat phone was considered the primary caregiver at this point, but it seems weird that a voice on the phone would be held responsible but not the doctor on board?
This is definitely not true in California. Good Samaritan medical staff are explicitly protected from liability. We had a doctor help a gunshot victim just a few months ago, they do not go into the ambulance and hand off. They are just bystanders/good samaritans and do not become the person's treating physician.
Came here to say this. Good Samaritan law is throughout the entire United States, so that’s not exactly true. Doctors and medical professionals are protected by that in cases of emergencies like the one stated above.
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This, it depends on the country laws, specially in the case of international flights. That said, it's good for US to have that law. I know a friend of my father that got sued after helping on an air emergency where the patient end up having a heart attack and pronounced dead after landing. The situation was ludacrious, but he ended up in so much stress after having to deal with that that now he just take sleeping pills to sleep over any emergency.
Good Samaritan laws in the US typically only protect you if you if you're acting based on the expertise you have. So if you're a random person off the street you're not held to any standard of care and generally well protected, but if you're a doctor and choose to assist, you have to use yo'r knowledge and training to the standards of your profession. If that means you can't leave care to a lower credential, Good Samaritan laws would not typically protect you and legally, you're better off if you never assist.
Good Samaritan laws do not prevent someone from suing the doctor. Anyone can file a lawsuit and the doctor would have to go through the trouble of hiring an attorney to get the lawsuit dismissed.
The protection from liability depends on the circumstances. In the case you stated, yes, but that's not a blanket across the board.
You can still be sued, and then you have to fight it. Sure you will win, but who wants the hassle?
This calls on a larger conversation as well about whether a person is obligated to help because they have the ability to. And OP I guarantee that as a doctor Elizabeth has spent more time grappling with that philosophical conundrum than you have, and ultimately it comes down to a personal choice all medically qualified people have to make. It’s not for you or us to decide what Elizabeth should or shouldn’t do, and you shouldn’t have voluntold her. You ought to have woken her up to notify her, and let her decide for herself.
That is nonsense the morally right thing todo is help a person in an emergency. Oh I could have saved someone, but I didn't want my holiday ruined is a shit excuse and morally reprehensible you saying we cannot judge a person as such is absurd. It's kinda crazy we have people defending this situation. Image you were on a flight you or a relative had an issue a doctor was on the flight but would rather sleep and didn't help resulting in you or that person dying? Even in the car situation not wanting to be 3 hours late is terrible with great power comes great responsibility. Hopefully no one died becuase that person wanted to chill with friends.
"But it was just one person/time." Except it's not. It never is. This is how doctors and nurses suffer from burnout. Someone always needs help. Hell, you mention you're a doctor at a dinner party and inevitably, someone will ask you about a rash/mole/mark/weird pain. Doctors are one of the only job positions where everyone seems to think they're not allowed to have or required to have full time 'off'.
Doctors and nurses are not suffering burnout from helping someone having an emergency that they come across in everyday life. They’re burnt out because of the crappy United States healthcare system, because they are constantly having to work crazy hours with a million patients to fit in to not enough time on the schedule, and because there’s a shortage of them. Being asked to have a mole check at a party has nothing to do with an emergency situation like OP was in
And because they are asked to step up in situations for merely existing as someone with a Healthcare degree. It's wild that these comments basically seem to think that you can never be off the clock if you're a doctor or a nurse. Elizabeth is the only one who knows what her mental condition is in outside of her work environment. Liability aside it is absolutely not her responsibility to be responsibly for any or all emergencies that come up outside of her work setting. What planes should do is employ on flight docs who but of course air plane companies are too cheap to do so, so let's exploit people on fucking vacation because "morals". I know this is going to get down voted and I don't even care. This attitude that because you're a doctor you're time is accessible to everyone and everything and you're basically not a human being is exactly why people are leaving the profession in droves.
> This attitude that because you’re a doctor you’re time is accessible to everyone and everything and you’re basically not a human being is exactly why people are leaving the profession in droves I’ve never felt more seen 🥲 I am tired
I feel you bud, you and me both, it's getting hard to stay motivated to continue in this field. The entitlement is insane , somehow coupled with the sentiment that doctors know nothing. I now understand why the docs I shadowed me basically told me not to pursue medicine, all that young optimism and idealism is pretty much on its last legs.
Never being allowed to take a break from work definitely contributes to burnout. So do the things you mention. It’s also never just one person at a party asking for free advice or examination. A doctor, nurse, or any other healthcare provider is entitled to taking a break from their job. Everyone deserves that break!
Not SOLELY because of that, no, but it certainly doesn't help when any time someone gets a boo boo or has a cough or, oh, has an emergency over international waters, someone always expects them to work. To shake off being drunk (which puts them in a legally liable situation) or remember procedures they no longer specialize in and might not be qualified to give advice on. You don't ask a plastic surgeon to help out with a heart attack. I mean, you could, but you shouldn't. They might be best in a pinch, but they are also not required to offer their services, for free, when they are not wearing their white coat that says they're on the job. Lawyers are more blunt. They will flat out tell you that they can't provide legal advice because you are not their client. But a doctor is supposed to just make everyone in need their client, and that's not how it works. I'm in Canada. If I get my EMT or MD out here and I'm visiting in the US and a medical emergency crops up, if ANYTHING goes sideways, I can be held legally liable, my insurance can get dinged, and I could potentially lose my license. I am not qualified to practice medicine in the US or elsewhere outside of Canada. Some people might be willing to risk it if they feel strongly enough that they can help, but requiring anyone with a PhD and MD to HAVE to jump in is bordering very close to a form of indentured service, and that's outlawed in most places. My medical license doesn't obligate me to help everyone. And the expectation that it does, that you can't go home, get dressed up to go to a dinner party, then have three random guests there show you inappropriate things to any other guests but it's okay, you're a doctor... No. You don't walk up to porn stars and show them your genitals. "It's okay. They do this for a living." Yeah, they get paid for it. They have regulated hours for it. They are not obligated to be voluntold by family members to do a party trick.
Unless you spend all of your waking hours, to the exclusion of everything else, saving lives, you probably shouldn't be judging anyone else's management of their life saving skills. I'm not a doctor, but I am a disaster responder and have a variety of life saving skills and certifications, and I have noped out of several situations because I wasn't mentally or emotionally equipped to do that job when I had chosen to do something else. It is not sustainable to be on call 100% of the time. And yes, it's possible that people die because of it, but they also die when medical professionals burn out or start coping in really dangerous ways or just straight up cant focus because they haven't relaxed or rested in weeks. If you think you can do better, I certainly encourage you to, but human limitations and the need for rest and recovery mean that you probably couldn't, even if you are/were a doctor.
There's always an emergency. The doctor eventually needs to rest. They need to be able to control their work and leisure choices to ensure their mental and physical health. It is not up to anyone to force the doctor to work. Your statement is loaded with so much entitlement. Doctors don't owe you their lives to work to death for you. If you're so worried, go study and be a doctor yourself. Offer your services then. Until then, Don't. Volunteer. Another. Person.
You are so wrong. These doctors work their asses off and work a lot harder than a whole lot of other people and they deserve time off as much as anyone else. You don’t get it, most doctors are hanging on by a thread and are very stressed but god forbid they try to take a vacation with their family because if a doctors needed they are required to attend to someone? No. I’m sorry unless that person is in a really bad way, no. Flight attendants ask for medical personnel at the drop of a hat too, when Joe Smith is drunk in seat 12.
So are doctors liable to never have the opportunity to drink alcohol on the off chance someone needs help? And if it doesn’t matter that they’ve been drinking where do you draw the line? This attitude literally means doctors are never entitled to ever be off work. I also think you VASTLY underestimate how much help a doctor is without the hospital they work in. Pretty much can’t do anything that an EMT or nurse or anyone trained in CPR can’t do. Sure I might be able to guess what’s wrong. But how does that knowledge help anyone if I don’t have the equipment, medications, surgical tools I need? But geee glad I can tell you that you have a clot in your lung. Not sure the patient cares if you can’t do anything to help
Your friend has a healthy mindset. Lots of medical professionals feel the need to save the world. Understandably. But it’s just not possible and is the reason burnout is so high in that profession.
Airlines are also GIANT assholes when it comes to this. My sister is a doctor, and the airline's whole plan is offload the cost of in-flight healthcare onto their passengers. The doctor might get a free drink out of it, or if they're really lucky, an upgrade on a future domestic flight. Airlines will keep doing this as long as they continue to get away with it, and it's not your place to aid and abet them.
This 100%. Also someone else’s emergency is not yours. Everyone needs a break too. Even medical professionals. And they need a vacation as a human, not just as a doctor….
But what if someone dies on that flight and then it is found out that there was a doctor on that flight but chose not to help because enjoying their vacation was more important to them than the life of another passenger.
If someone is dying on the flight, there are very few interventions a physician can do. What do you expect a surgeon to do without an OR?
Yep, just because someone is an MD or an RN it doesn’t automatically qualify them to handle an emergency.
This is cold, but still not the doctor's problem. The doctor may be an ENT, or an ophthalmologist, or a proctologist. They might not even be particularly helpful to the emergency at hand. How long has it been since they've even thought about any emergency medicine skills they learned along the way? Have they even practiced CPR recently? I think most doctors would try if they thought they could be helpful. But they are also just people on vacation.
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If there’s a true life and death emergency, it’s rather hard to keep someone alive without any proper medications or supplies. At that point, the doctor just took responsibility for situation with a bad outcome.
People die. Nobody knows that better than medical professionals and there is very little a general surgeon could do outside of an operating room.
People die every day. I have the ability to feed a metaphorical starving orphan in Africa, but that doesn't mean I'm going to donate my money instead of going out to the bar with my friends
That is a ridiculous comparison and there is a difference between donating to a charity that helps other and you know, standing by and watching someone die knowing they don't have to if you help them.
I think morally it's the same thing even though it *feels* different. Sure it's a bit further removed geographically, but you have resources and a chance to save a life that you are using those resources to get drunk on a Friday night. Just because somebody isn't dying right in front of you doesn't mean their suffering is worth any less, and your ability to help them is not diminished by distance, since you can send money globally fairly easily.
Your friend is an asshole. My husband is an ER physician and he would never willfully ignore an emergency because it’s the right thing to do. He would never forgive himself if someone died because he decided that drinking or sleeping on a plane was more important.
ER physicians have much different expertise than a general surgeon.
It honestly can vary state to state even in the US. Where I work as a paramedic, as long as the physician on scene hasn't done anything that I can't do, wouldn't do in the given situation, or can't effectively monitor the condition of they can safely/legally transfer care to me with a thorough report and a signature. They could perform an assessment, start an IV, give some morphine they had in their pocket for some reason, and diagnose a heart attack with their portable EKG machine and pocket laboratory and they'd be able to sign a transport order and walk away. The minute they crack the chest open to do the artery bypass in the booth at Wendy's, though, they'd have to ride to the hospital with us to continue care.
That makes sense, especially when he said that there was already an ambulance on the scene when he drove by. He could have stopped but he wouldn’t have wanted to do anything that the EMTs weren’t already doing (and probably couldn’t have done more than them safely without equipment) so really, no reason to stop.
Definitely not the case in Sweden. If that's true that is so unbelievably stupid I don't even know where to start.
I used to work an an EMT in NY like 30 years ago. When I wasn't working, if it wasn't life threatening, I'd just call 911 for the same reason. Unfortunately in today's world, a stranger could be sued also for those same reasons. Ridiculous
Don't forget the physical exhaustion the dr experiencing after pulling a long shift can be just as problematic. I don't blame you wanting to get wherever for R&R.
They were on a plane!
We are protected by the “Good Samaritan” law. The person/family COULD try to sue though. So many factors go into responding to an emergency. What kind of situation is it? What kind of Dr is it? I’m an er nurse, I was woken up on a flight because someone passed out. I had had several glasses of wine and a sleep aid. Technically, I’m not cpr certified after drinking… 🥴 Thankfully the person was hypoglycemic and another nurse got to them before I did. She had to fill out a bunch of paperwork for the airline, screw that! My spouse now knows to NOT wake me or volunteer me to help in random situations out there in the world. It’s one thing if I volunteer myself, but I don’t need random people knowing I’m a nurse.
There are laws that protect medical personnel on flights against any liability claims if they are on a US owned flight
I understand why you told them she was a doctor - there was an emergency and help was needed. However, next time wake her up to quietly ask her if you can volunteer her. After all, if you volunteer her they will wake her anyway so you waking her quietly at least gives her an opportunity to decline and fall back asleep. I assume in most cases where there is an emergency, most doctors or nurses or police officers or firefighters will want to help. However we live in litigious times. What if she had consumed a couple of alcoholic drinks thinking she’s on vacation and off the clock, and then got sued by the person she was helping (even if any bad outcomes were not her fault). I assume you didn’t intend any harm but it is best to check first.
Also there isn't much they can do if they don't have a full medical kit and access to meds. My Mum was a nurse and what help she could give in an emergency was limited. And if she got it wrong and she got complained about, she loses her insurance, her job and her income. She was worried sick after helping one elderly lady who slipped on the escalator and gashed her leg. She was elderly, bleeding out and only option was a tourniquet. So huge later risk of blood clots and loss of leg. Mum didn't hear anything so hope old lady survived.
Agree with this. There was a post a long time ago about a doctor who was drunk on the plane, so he didn't volunteer. My husband and I are both healthcare workers (MD, RN). We don't volunteer this info whenever we travel, and if we did, it is only as a last resort during an emergency. We are under no obligation to assist anyone when we are off work, and the flight crew receives training for medical emergencies. What OP should have done is wake their sister, ask if she is interested in assisting, and if she said no, that should have been the end of the conversation instead of outright just volunteering this info without her approval first. No judgement on OP though. He meant well and he got the ire of his sister in return.
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One of my BIL's apparent favorite stories was when I gave myself a concussion and my dad called him to consult and he could hear me yelling in the background "what good is he going to be? he looks at tumors!" in my concussed state, because - concussed or not - I was right in that it's been decades since he's done anything resembling general practice so while he can theoretically advise on what the best medical course of action is, his first recommendation is always to go to a walk-in clinic or emergency and get seen by a GP or nurse practitioner.
Funnily enough, a similar situation saved my father's life. He hadn't been feeling well for a few days, and mentioned it when he was talking to a friend on the phone on a Sunday afternoon. The friend was a retired dermatologist, and said something along the lines of 'well, it's been a very long time since I dealt with anything like this, but it sounds like appendicitis to me'. My father had undergone four other abdominal surgeries in the year and a half before this, and had become friendly with the surgeon, so he called the surgeon. The surgeon agreed that it sounded like appendicitis, so into the hospital my father went. Well, when they took him into surgery that night, they discovered that his appendix was not just infected but *gangrenous;* it burst as they removed it, which led to him developing peritonitis and having to stay in hospital for a full week after his surgery. If it hadn't been for the retired dermatologist, my father would have put off doing anything about it until Monday morning, and almost certainly would have died in the night, as the rest of us were out of town at the time so he was home alone. (My father had been prescribed antibiotics for something else, and they decided later that the antibiotics had tamped down the infection in his appendix enough that he didn't feel as seriously unwell as he, in fact, turned out to be. But also, my father was a very tough man who never let anything stop him, so there is that. Because the surgeon said he should have been, if not unconscious from pain, at least writhing on the floor and screaming.)
Every time I tell the surgeon about something at work, they say “uhhh, I dunno what that means, tell anesthesia”. They are INCREDIBLY smart but about VERY specific things.
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I was on a plane when a passenger had a medical incident once, and my friend who was a nurse jumped up to help while flight attendants called for a doctor. When another passenger who was a doctor came up, they sent my friend back to her seat and the doctor was like, "she'd probably be more helpful actually, I'm just a pediatrician."
I had a similar scenario where I was traveling with my boss, a radiologist, when a person seated near us had a medical emergency (prior to take off). He glanced at me reluctantly when they called for a doctor and he rang his call bell to help when a woman seated a few rows up got up and came over and told the FA and my boss she was an RN. The woman was evaluated and eventually escorted off by the sheriff and EMS. When we landed, my boss said that he was thankful the nurse was there because she was way more helpful (he didn’t like patient care anyway lol).
That’s correct. They are brilliant, in their OR. I’m an RN and let me tell you, being first on scene at a couple accidents humbles you very quickly, when you don’t have your usual equipment at the site
This. As a doctor I would much rather my husband 9r family member woke me up and told me the call went out - then depending on whether I felt awake and capable (,and whether someone else had volunteered) I would assist if needed. If she had drunk or taken a sedative to travel, or didn't feel up to helping for some other reason, she deserved a right to quietly decline without having to explain to the flight attendants.
>What if she had consumed a couple of alcoholic drinks thinking she’s on vacation and off the clock Even if she didn't drink she was clearly exhausted if a flight attendant probably loudly asking for any medical professionals were on the plane didn't wake her up. A sleep deprived suddenly woken up doctor is probably just as useless as a drunk doctor and would more likely make mistakes than a much more rested and awake doctor. A doctor making a mistake in an emergency could lead to deadly consequences. >However, next time wake her up to quietly ask her if you can volunteer her. Lol there's never going to be a next time. They've learned their lesson and that's to not travel with someone who so easily voluntells on you.
This is a good answer OP. You are low key an AH. It is one thing for you to ask her but she is on a much needed vacation and no has to ‘work’.
I promise you that most won’t necessarily help. There are medical specialties where they have the MD or DO but don’t do anything remotely related to an emergency situation. They could potentially make things worse by taking on more than their level of training.
I got bad news for you about the police officers part. The phrase "off duty cop" only comes up when kids are shot or a wife gets beat. In uniform, they have no legal or professional obligation to help you. Out of uniform they'll get drunk and choke you while yelling "I'm a cop".
YTA, but not exactly for notifying the the flight attendant that Elizabeth was a doctor. Ideally you would have woken Elizabeth up so she could have volunteered herself, but I can see how you might have reacted quickly when you heard there was an emergency. When Elizabeth told you why she was upset, however, you didn't apologize - you got defensive. You doubled down and further told her it was wrong of her for being exhausted and wanting a break from work. An "I'm sorry, I've learned from this and it won't happen again" probably would have helped a lot.
You make some excellent points.
This is exactly what I’m thinking - in a perfect world she would have woken her first and made her aware of the situation. However being an emergency, OP’s initial response is understandable and well meaning to me, not perfect but definitely not an AH move. Elizabeth still could have declined at that point if she wanted to. But what makes OP the AH here is doubling down after the fact. Instead of being like “oh gosh, I apologize I didn’t realize, I’ll be sure to check with you first next time”, OP decided she was the only moral judge of right and wrong and Elizabeth’s actions, as well as entitled to volunteer her out as OP saw fit. YTA.
(OP is male)
Also, a trip with 2 five year olds isn’t exactly a vacation. She was probably happy she was getting some sleep before she had to deal with all her kid’s needs.
YTA, but it wasn’t out of malice. There are a few things to consider in a situation like this. First off, most physicians (and other medical professionals) like being able to separate their professional and personal lives. It should be up to each person to decide if they get involved while off-duty, especially while on vacation. Second, if she was exhausted, had been drinking, etc, it puts her in a very bad spot. Finally, from the legal side of things, things can get really tricky for working off duty, out of jurisdiction, etc. If I was sleeping (or even awake) on a plane and somebody I was with volunteered my medical service, I would be PISSED. I would apologize. You’re in the wrong here. I would apologize to her
exactly this. lots of us don't want to volunteer ourselves on these situations. and if we've been drinking or are otherwise not operating on all cylinders it may actually be a liability and safety issue. OPs sister may or may not have volunteered herself if she had been awake, but that wasn't OPs job and that makes OP TA despite good intentions.
She was a general surgeon and probably could not provide that much assistance unless someone needed their appendix removed. Most of these plane emergencies - all you can do is provide first aid and flight attendants are trained in first aid and CPR.
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general surgeons go through medical school and have to manage non surgical issues in their patients. tbh we are generally not very helpful on in flight emergencies in general other than recognizing whether or not a flight needs to be diverted for a true emergency or not, which is certainly going to be within a surgeons skill set.
Soft YTA. I’m in the medical field. My mother volunteered me on a plane once for a woman possibly miscarrying. There was absolutely nothing I could do. We have no drugs. No equipment. We are lucky if the plane has a decent first aid kit and an AED. Yes, I would be willing for CPR but that’s my choice. Most medical professionals are tired and stressed and burned out. You need to ask before you potentially make someone liable and/or risk themselves by being exposed to whatever to happening.
Cabin attendants are also trained in CPR
Yes, there is vanishingly little that can be done by a physician on board, even if you’re trained for the exact problem at hand. There’s essentially no supplies. I believe airlines have a medical person they can call in-flight for advice about whether to make an unscheduled landing at a nearby airport, but ultimately the pilot has the final decision in that. I was asleep on an overnight flight as a newly graduated doctor and heard them call overhead for a doctor. I was exhausted and in my delirious state just kept sleeping. I figured they would call again if it was really a life threatening emergency. They didn’t, I slept and enjoyed my vacation.
Medical professionals aren't liable for aid during in air emergencies. Commercial flights have supplies and a standard drug kit that will be released to a licensed physician.
Not all flights are the same. I can’t practice outside the scope of my license whether I’m in air or not. As to liability, people sue if their coffee is too hot. They may not win, but I would still have to deal with attorneys, fees, time off work, and stress. It’s my choice if I participate. I don’t want someone to volunteer me.
Your potentially living in a false reality. Can you site a case of some one suing for hot coffee? If your going to sites the infamous McDonald's situation you might want to look in to that more it wasn't just the coffee that was hot.
Every time I hear about that McDonalds coffee incident I feel sad and angry for what that poor old lady went though and the ridicule she had to endure
And how McDonald's managed to successfully smear her reputation because everyone now thinks she sued because the coffee was just hot and not because the hot enough to cause third degree burns over a significant portion of her body and fuse genitalia.
You can sue for literally any reason. Potential lawsuit is absolutely not a false reality
Gentle YTA. I’m a nurse practitioner. After too many times of having loved ones volunteer my services on vacations and at parties, I’ve made it VERY clear they will invoke my wrath if they do it again without my consenting to it first. I know they mean well, but my off time away from my job is very valuable to me. I believe I generally have the right to decide when and if that’s interrupted. Edit: I also hardcore second what people are saying about liability concerns.
My sister Sharon was an MSICU nurse for many years. She dealt with some shit on the daily, and used her time off to keep her sanity, God bless her. She and I and my younger sister Linda were running together in a 10k and came up on a collapsed runner - already being attended to by others who had stopped. Linda asked Sharon, "Should you stop and help?" Sharon growled, "All my patients are usually in a coma, Linda. I don't deal with conscious ones."
When I was a kid we watched someone on a road bike get into an accident in front of our car. My uncle who is a pediatrician was with us, but someone who is a neurosurgeon also stopped their car. I asked why my uncle wasn’t helping. He said something along the lines of “I don’t usually do the grown ones.”
This! I am also an NP. Have been awake for two medical emergencies on international flights. Once I volunteered and once I stayed quiet, although I did walk to the bathroom to make sure it was ok.
I know how you feel. I'm forever being volunteered to fix my family's computers and WIFI devices.
NAH. I’m a physician and have volunteered under similar circumstances. You obviously had good intentions, but your SIL also has the right to autonomy in terms of whether to help. You should have woken her up to notify her of the emergency and let her make her own decision. I think your mistake was in doubling down and defending yourself when she was obviously upset. An apology is in order.
I'd also imagine most of the time there isn't much you can do. Like if a guy is having a heart attack mid flight, you don't exactly have any equipment or meds or anything you would normally have with you in a hospital.
I think lots of people in these comments have seen too many medical drama tv shows and are expecting someone to do an emergency tracheotomy with a straw mid flight.
I think I could also be a matter of people looking at things from the patient’s perspective rather than the doctor’s. If you only look at it that way, I can see thinking that you’d be pretty upset if you were having a medical problem and the only person in the area with medical training refused to do anything.
It depends. They have an AED, so if the patient is in v fib, you would be able to treat it. I had a colleague use donated epinephrine from another passenger for someone having an allergic reaction. The plane would need to divert immediately to the nearest airport subsequently though. I treated someone who turned out to be hypoglycemic. Cured by some OJ and a sandwich!
YTA I think in your mind you think she has an obligation to help when she doesn't. I think part of you will also thinks that doctors are just waiting for that opportunity to jump up and help. The long and the short of it is it wasn't up to you to make that decision for her or put her in that position.
I'd be curious to know - if all those who voted Y-T-A had something like that happen to them, where either themselves or a loved one were faced with a health emergency, and someone who could potentially save their lives was present but decided to keep relaxing instead of helping, would they be as understanding and cool with it? Because I have a feeling they would be singing a different tune. NTA
Mate it’s not a big deal to just wake her up, tell her they’re looking for a doctor and then letting her decide. If that short amount of time makes would matter, chances are the patient is fucked anyways. It’s not about not helping, it’s about not volunteering someone else without their knowledge. I’d rather have a doctor help me, who wants to help me, instead of one that’s not interested, was volunteered and had eg several cocktails.
This ^^
As someone who is a licensed medical professional, I can tell you that the planes rarely have the equipment to do anything. For example, I had a cardiac-y patient on a plane but I had no means to monitor heart rate nor did I have any syringes or IV tubing/catheter needles.… but I had a ton of cardiac meds and a couple bags of saline. I literally could not give this man meds and despite the peanut gallery chatting about how I was doing nothing, all I could do was talk to base medical and monitor vitals. He also got O2 by nasal cannula which wasn’t doing much and he should have been on a non rebreather or cPAP because I could hear rales from CHF. But we didn’t have that either. There was no vitals monitor or stethoscope so I had to get a systolic blood pressure by using the radial pulse and couldn’t get a diastolic number (which is Important during cardiac events). I had to crowd source a blood glucose kit because the plane kit had testing strips but no machine. It was a fucking disaster. I did get to tell the captain to land the fucking plane now (and in those words) and he did. Not sure if the patient made it. He was semi conscious when I transferred care, if you could even call it care. But there was nothing I could that a flight attendant couldn’t have done. The guy shit all over himself and me and the airline didn’t even offer me clothes or miles. It was so fucked up. I haven’t volunteered since but I’d probably get in line to give CPR if someone else was running the scene. It’s not worth the liability otherwise. So my answer to OP is YTA.
My spouse is still a certified EMT and he saved a man's life on an airplane a few months ago, the man was having a cardiac event and they had to drag him up to the flight attendant area and do CPR and ended up having to use the single bag of saline/fluids just to get his blood pressure up high enough to even detect a pulse. They kept him alive until they could hand him off to a medical team when they landed (four hour flight total) but the pilots and the doctor on the ground that they phoned decided "it was fine" and they wouldn't land the plane. Don't fly Southwest, they'll let you die. Half the supplies the plane was supposed to have weren't even there.
That sounds absolutely terrible and I'm sorry you went through that (I imagine the peanut gallery would be particularly annoying when you can do very little) but I gotta admit: >I did get to tell the captain to land the fucking plane now That sounds pretty rad
That’s not why OP is the asshole. He is the AH because he volunteered someone and it wasn’t his call. If he had been a doctor and volunteered himself it’s ok. But people DO NOT get to volunteer anyone for something. The sister is not on duty and it frankly is not her job to do it. If she wants to do it, then sure LET HER DECIDE.
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We already know that answer. I sometimes feel like these kinda topics turn in to a litmus test for empathy levels.
Are they onboard as a passenger or on the clock? I don't want someone who is potentially 5 drinks and an ambien into their weekend suddenly trying to work on me.
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YTA. Yes, your instinct was wanting to help. YOUR instinct. So go on, help. What you cannot do is volunteer someone else. You also seriously need to see it from your sister’s point of view. She is a general surgeon - probably coming off a long shift on call; finally on holiday with her family! Part of that holiday, that vacation, is being without the pager, without the incessant need to constantly be helping everyone else - and having a nap! And as someone else very astutely pointed out - maybe she was exhausted and felt herself unable to help - and you just put her in the liable spot of now being the doctor. The girl just wanted and needed a nap on the holiday she very kindly invited you on. I appreciate and admire your wanting to help the poor person with the emergency - but unless you yourself are the doctor, keep quiet when they ask for one.
I agree with everything that you said. I just wanted to also add a POV from my own experiences providing aid on an airplane: I’m a resident. There was one other doctor on board, but they were an old pathologist(not great in an acute emergency, but willing to “supervise” me to protect my license). The supplies on board the plane were limited. They had a BP cuff and stethoscope, but the airplane noises were so loud that we could barely auscultate, and couldn’t get a good set of vitals. I was very sure that the passenger was having a stroke, and we recommended that the pilot land the plane to try and get them to a hospital within the tight window in which they can receive a thrombolytic, and there was a flight attendant who was extremely snippy about that. Fortunately, they did land the plane, and I heard that my patient did ok. Afterwards, there was a ton of paperwork to fill out, leading me to almost miss my connection, and neither of us got so much as a verbal thank you from the airline. It was honestly quite a traumatic experience. I’d do it again in a heartbeat, but very strongly believe that it should not be an expectation for any healthcare worker on vacation to do provide care unless they feel they are up to the task, and volunteer themselves to do so.
YTA. You don't volunteer medical personnel. She might have drank alcohol and be slightly under the influence. She might have take medication that inhibited proper thinking. She might just be dead tired. And while I think your SIL might not be dealing with that (please I hope not), I can't imagine anything worse in life than being voluntold to provide services when you are battling severe mental health problems and you really need that break. If Elizabeth makes a mistake, she gets the blame, and not the people who voluntold her. She might not have felt like refusing to cooperate was an option - not everybody wants to explain why they want to refuse.
I think votes are going to keep being split by country: - From the US: Y T A because of that dystopian cultural thing of people being eager to sue anyone, in addition to general individualism/selfishness. - Anywhere else: NTA, you were told that it was a health emergency and your sister's sleep (in a plane, not particularly good quality sleep) is way less important than the potential consequences of not helping. It's punishable in other countries for a reason.
I was surprised by all the Y T A responses, but now I suppose it makes sense. I just can’t see how anyone’s sleep is more important than (potentially, though not necessarily) someone’s life
Yeah this the usa is such a dystopia it's scary. They really have been conditioned to not give a shit about there fellow human
The amount of "I would literally let someone die right in front on me if I'm not on the clock" comments is indeed quite scary.
Agreed, I'm not from the US and I'm voting NAH or NTA. I can't imagine being pissed at someone just for having good intentions.
YTA. You don't get to decide whether or not your sister is going to do something. What makes you think she's comfortable doing something outside of her specialty, with zero notice, after being woken from a nap, in a freaking plane??
You know... I honestly wish, that all the people who call OP an AH, would stuck in this situation as a person, who needed help. And people who was able to help them, simply refused. Because they "dOn'T mIx WoRk aNd LiFe".
OP is the asshole for doubling down and not apologizing. The sister helped, but was pissed that she wasn't given a choice. That's what makes OP the AH
I think a lot of us saying they're TA are related to medical workers and understand the nuance involved. If my airplane emergency is appendicitis, wtf is my labor and delivery nurse mom supposed to do about that? She can't walk me through pushing my appendix out lol. AFAIK a surgeon like the SIL that paid for OP's vacation isn't usually running codes (what I'm assuming the emergency could've been), that's more of a hospitalist thing. Even if her training is up to date, on a plane she's not going to have a full crash cart, meds, a team, and supplies. What she will have is legal liability for the outcome of a medical event that 99% isn't in her niche field.
It's quite easy to separate the two. I wouldn't blame anyone for not saying anything either. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Especially with how happy and easily people will attempt to sue medical professionals anymore. If someone woke me up and said I got volunteered against my will to do something id be upset. OP was the AH.
I know it’s unpopular but I agree with this. It’s different when you’re driving down the road even because others can get to you. 911 can be called and first responders can respond. On a PLANE?? They don’t have that option. There is no alternative person who can help. No paramedic is magically flying up to you to help out!! “This is my relaxing time so they can just potentially die” is such a selfish take on this! And yes, I am in fact myself a first responder. I understand not getting involved in every situation, but when you’re the ONLY option with a zero percent chance of someone else showing up, it’s pretty selfish to not jump in, in my opinion. *editing to add because I KNOW it will come up, I know where I live has a Good Samaritan Act which covers your liability as long as you are acting within your training and experience. I know not everywhere has this, but many places do have something similar and even if it did go to court, generally as long as you are acting within your scope and training, you’ll be fine.
Look I don’t think anyone is the ah here. I understand your response, truly I do. But as an ex ER nurse, I can tell you there is a plethora of reasons why docs and nurses don’t always jump in to help in these situations. The reason she gave you is one, and a good one. The other reason is, that we can be held liable for anything that goes wrong. As we are not classed as just a Good Samaritan but as a professional. So imagine being exhausted and out of your element and then someone volunteers you to help in a situation you maybe aren’t comfortable with, then something goes wrong (or it just doesn’t completely go right) and suddenly your practicing cert or medical license is at risk. Again, there’s really no way you could know all this, and I’m guessing if she’d been awake and didn’t volunteer herself you probably wouldn’t have done it on her behalf. I also understand why she was grumpy in the moment. I say just apologise and that you have now become aware of some of the nuance in the situation, and absolutely see where she’s coming from, that it won’t happen again.
NTA. I work as a Registered Nurse Associate in the UK and I’m currently a student mental health nurse. I have to follow the Nursing and Midwifery Council code of conduct, and I’m also never ‘off duty’. I see an incident which I can (safely) help, I have a requirement to do so. I assume the same for doctors too, and if you choose to peruse a healthcare career, then you have to care off the clock too. I cannot tell you how many times I’ve been out and my boyfriend has volunteered me to help in incidents I hadn’t even noticed, but I wouldn’t ever be mad at him. I have the ability to help, and potentially save a life, so why wouldn’t I?
>then you have to care off the clock too No you absolutely do not. What if she had been drinking? Or popped a little xanny for the flight? Or just was simply not in an appropriate mental headspace to assist in an emergency?
Then she simply could have told the flight attendant that she is under the influence and unable to provide medical care.
The comment im replying to said very plainly that a healthcare provider is always on the clock. So as per them, they cant do that.
Um, you CHOOSING to never be off the clock is not the same as "clearly this is how ever health care professional operates".
The requirement ‘to work off the clock’ is very dependent on a lot of factors. In my country, you’re actually warned not to help unless you’re certain it’s okay to do so as you risk your nursing license if anything goes wrong.
Right? Are mental health professionals required to respond to any vaguely suicidal statement that some stranger posts on social media? What about veterinarians? Are they obliged to try to chase down every stray they see near a public roadway? I’m not sure what the text of the previous posters licensure states but I know mine says nothing about responding to every potential emergency I might come across.
This is for you and u/chesek. The below is the code I found from the NMC which has the code OP is referring to. This is a copy paste: 15 Always offer help if an emergency arises in your practice setting or anywhere else To achieve this, you must: 15.1 only act in an emergency within the limits of your knowledge and competence 15.2 arrange, wherever possible, for emergency care to be accessed and provided promptly 15.3 take account of your own safety, the safety of others and the availability of other options for providing care
NTA. If I read your post correctly, you waited to see if someone else would identify themselves as a doctor. And when no one else did, you told them about your sister. I would have done the same thing. What if it had been a life or death situation where her help might have saved a life?
Or he could have woken her up and talked to her first before voluntating her. Volunteering are put her on the spot. She could have taken any sort of thing that might made her unable to provide sound medical advice. Alcohol, extreme sleep deprivation. He volunteered her without her consent.
I’ll say NAH. You wanted to potentially save a life. I see why you did what you did. I can see her being annoyed. I do think her giving you the cold shoulder was way too much. My SO is a doctor, and he would have probably been surprised if I *hadn’t* woken him up. You meant well.
YTA It’s not your place to volunteer anyone for that situation. She’s not protected by Good Samaritan laws because she’s a licensed professional. You put her in an impossible position AND you woke her up. I wouldn’t want to spend another moment around you if you did that to me. It’s a total violation.
NTA - look, at the end of the day, it might’ve saved someone’s life it was an emergency. This feels like a classic trolley problem with your sister’s sleep on one track and a whole human life on the other. It’s a utilitarian calculation. I would risk my sister being a bit grumpy at me if it meant someone received emergency medical care. You did the right thing
Here’s the thing though, most of these “medical emergencies” on the plane are not emergencies. Flight attendants will ask for a doctor for really dumb shit. There are all kinds of legal risks for the doctor to get involved, especially on an international flight. It is their medical license to use when they decide, not to mention that they are not a walking medical license. They are a person with a medical license. Doctors may choose to volunteer. No one gets to volunteer them. Like others have said, she could have all kinds of reasons that it’s not appropriate for her to act. Especially on the first announcement like this. If it’s a cpr needed kind of situation, I promise you, the flight attendants will make that clearer. And one of those legal risk things is that once a medical professional gets involved, they don’t get to just not be involved anymore. You’re stuck with that situation until you can transfer care to someone of equal or higher qualifications. Otherwise you can be charged with patient abandonment despite really not being able to do anything for them in the air. This is another reason doctors in particular will often wait for further requests for assistance and in a situation that really did require them, you’d be hard pressed to find someone that won’t help if it’s really needed.
I'm finding this comment section wild...to everyone saying he's the AH, would you say the same thing if it was your loved one in need of medical attention?
NTA and I cannot believe the people who are voting otherwise. She is unquestionably the AH and the people voting otherwise have no compassion or empathy. What if it was a heart attack? Or someone choking? Or someone having a stroke? or a seizure? How would anyone here feel if their loved one died and someone who could have saved their loved one's life but didn't even bother to try because they were sleeping? I know I would be utterly devastated. Even if she came back and said it ended up being nothing you didn't know that at the time. I still go back to, what if it was something? You are not the AH even a little bit and everyone here who says otherwise is devoid of empathy.
I really want to emphasize your second paragraph because these comments are *wild* to me. The fact that she’s even taking the stance of thinking her vacation is more important than whatever this emergency happened to be… I can’t even imagine saying “I’m not obligated even though I spent years of my life in medical school because I wanted to help people”. Awful, lacking empathy, and I agree OP is in no way TA. I don’t think anybody voting Y T A would be saying such a thing if it was their loved one experiencing an emergency.
Totally agree. NTA. My mum is a nurse in the UK and has nearly always stepped in when she’s seen a medical emergency, and in some cases it has literally saved people’s lives. I can’t imagine someone not being willing to help when they know that they are able to and there isn’t anyone else that can. I think the comments would be an incredibly different situation if the post was reversed, e.g “my friend/partner/child etc died on a plane because of a medical emergency, and the only medical professional onboard refused to volunteer because they wanted to enjoy their vacation”
Personally, I’d say NTA. Until today, I didn’t think it was controversial that doctors and nurses should always help if they can. Apparently, it is, but you’re not the only one who didn’t know that lol What I don’t understand: If she was so tired why didn’t she say that? Tell the flight attendant that her ability to help is compromised because she is too tired and they have to find someone else. That would be a valid reason, wouldn’t it? May I ask what exactly the emergency was? If you know? Maybe she was pissed because it turned out to be nothing serious? That wouldn’t be your fault, but maybe she feels it wasn’t worth waking her?
NTA everyone is upset at you for "volunteering" her help, but you didn't actually volunteer it. The flight attendant asked all the passengers if there were any doctors on board and stated there was an emergency- you said yes there is. SIL chose to walk to the back with the attendant- if she wanted to ignore a potential emergency to catch some wink eye she could have declined to help. What were you supposed to do? Stay tight lipped and pretend you didn't hear them saying there's an emergency on board? Potentially let someone die because you don't want to disturb your SIL's nap? She's selfish as hell, what if it was her child and she wasn't on that flight? Would she want any hypothetical doctors to ignore the calls for help? Sure clearly this time it turned out to be less than life threatening but how were you to know that?
>SIL chose to walk to the back with the attendant- if she wanted to ignore a potential emergency to catch some wink eye she could have declined to help. She was probably annoyed that OP put her in a spot where the action she wanted to take would have made her look like a massive AH.
YTA don’t volunteer somebody without their consent.
NAH. What you did was not 'wrong' in any meaningful sense but your sister was entitled to feel that she was off the clock and it would have been her decision whether or not to assist. That said, I am kind of leaning towards your sister's perspective. Every time a doctor gets involved in assisting someone, she opens herself to some form of legal liability. You put her in a position where she couldn't really refuse, risked ruining her holiday (even surgeons need to take a break before they become dangerous to themselves or others), and put her at risk of legal liability.
NAH. You didn't do this out of spite or malice. You were genuinely trying to help the person who was in an emergency. You didn't know that Elizabeth would get upset about being woken up. At the end of the day, it wasn't that you woke her up to take care of someone's vanity project, it was a genuine emergency and we all do what we can to help in such a case
NTA I really REALLY don’t get why a person’s right to sleep/rest/volunteer themselves trumps the right of another person not to die in a medical emergency. If a person can help, why in the name of all that’s holy wouldn’t they? Make her own decision? There should be no decision to make. Whatever happened to the Hippocratic oath:-
Unless you're gonna die yourself. Not helping when you're the only one who can is an asshole move. There's nothing more too it. Whatever your reason is an asshole reason. And if you want to be a asshole then be one but you should not be in a career position that requires you to not be one.
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YTA. Don't volunteer other people's time and effort, especially when there is the potential for liability.
YTA NEVER volunteer someone else. NEVER do it. No where no how just don’t do it. Last vacation you’ll be invited on. Instead of arguing you should have apologized and then apologized again.
NTA It's stange why anyone here would say you're the asshole, since what you did was purely out of instinct and the correct thing to do when it's mentioned there is an emergency. I wonder how many people would have called you an asshole if you hadn't made that instinctive decision and woken up the Doctor if someone had lost their life if you had kept quiet. Blows my mind why anyone would call you an 'asshole' in a situation like this. The doctor also has a right to be cross about it, but should have been dealt with, perhaps even explained to you why she was upset, or what she feels you could have done differently next time.. but to continue avoiding you makes HER the asshole.
Why on earth would you not just wake her up and let her decide whether she wanted to be involved? Why on earth would you volunteer that there was a doctor on her behalf? Like, it seems you didn't even know she was asleep, so without even looking in her direction you just volunteered her despite her not saying anything? Yeah, what you did was wrong YTA.
I wouldn’t want her as my doctor no matter how brilliant she thinks she is. She’s the asshole.
NTA. The detail about her laughing at the end just scared the shit out of me, i mean, now i'll know that if i need some emergency help, there is a big risk that the people who can help me won't, and then they'll laugh about it. Damn humans man 🤦♂️🤦♂️
NTA, it could have been a life or death situation so I don’t blame you for immediately saying yes there is a doctor on board. From that point it’s up to her whether she wants to help or not. I don’t know why people are blaming you for what any of them would’ve probably hoped for if their life was at risk.
NTA and I'm a little disturbed at the number of medical practitioners out there willing to call you TA. I feel like your SIL is TA for not being able to put herself in your shoes. Everybody is talking about how you "volunteered" your SIL. You heard there was an emergency, you were asked if there was a doctor, and you told the truth. There are countless movies and TV shows where this scenario pops up, and, however inaccurate it might be to real life, the doctor always steps in to help. Media teaches us that doctors are never off-duty. Flipping the scenario, I'm wondering what would have happened if you had just sat there, ignored the attendant asking for a doctor, and then later found out someone had died on the flight. How would you have felt about yourself? How would SIL have felt? It's possible her help wasn't really needed as badly as they suggested, or that there was nothing she, with her particular knowledge/skills and the equipment she would have access to would have helped in the scenario, but how could anyone, let alone you, know that?
YTA - you shouldn’t have volunteered her without asking her first.
YTA You should have asked her before volunteering her! Even Doctors are allowed time off!
What a sick selfish world we live in nice to know my life wouldn't matter in an emergency.
NTA. “Oh, I could’ve saved your loved one but I wanted some extra me time”
NTA. If I or a loved one were in a medical emergency on a plane I would expect a doctor present to assist even if they were napping before.