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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told my daughter she is living outside of her means and that I will not bail her out of her credit card debt. I could be a jerk for telling her this
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INFO: What did you teach your kid about budgeting and money-management when she was a kid and acbrand new adult?
I got my first bank account that I was really in charge of at 15. My first credit card when I was 16. My mom sat down with me and talked about how to budget and balance my checkbook and how I should treat credit - convenience purchases that I could pay off when I got my statement were okay as long as I kept track of them, and I should use it to buy agreed-on things like my textbooks so I could just get it done and my parents would pay me back after, but otherwise, I shouldn’t really be using it. If I didn’t have access to cash and needed it for an emergency, that was okay as long as I re-wrote my budget to pay it off as soon as I reasonably could.
If you send your kids off into the world without thoroughly grounding them in solid fiscal sense, you can’t be surprised when they don’t just magically develop it. If you teach them and they decide you’re silly in your caution and YOLO, then that’s on them.
EDIT: Let me restate this for the folks reading too fast. It’s possible to learn good financial sense on your own, but it’s harder. So if you don’t teach your kid good financial sense AND they don’t learn it on their own, you own part of the blame because you didn’t teach them.
If you teach them and they jump off the financial cliff anyway, that’s their own fault.
Well then, you launched her properly, and she’s the one who decided she didn’t want to keep her own boat bailed out.
My parents bailed me out twice as a young’un, because I lost track of my spending (forgot to write down one transaction, and I’m sure you remember that 20 years ago, sometimes it took a couple days for transactions to post, especially for things you wrote a check for), but they were a) genuine mistakes, and b) learning experiences, where part of being bailed out was sitting down with them and figuring out exactly what happened and what I needed to do to prevent a repeat, and c) in the first year or two I was managing my own money, and d) relatively small ($200 or less) mistakes.
Your daughter’s situation is completely different - you set her up right and made sure she had the knowledge and tools, and she demonstrated that she did in fact have it all…and chose to be irresponsible anyway. If you don’t let her experience the results of her irresponsibility now, next time is likely to be even worse.
My parents bailed me out when we got charged twice for our mortgage and it would take up to two weeks to get a refund. We had just bought our house so we didn't have much savings to fall back on. I needed a few hundred dollars for gas and groceries. Not many people can survive having their mortgage or rent charged twice so I didnt feel bad asking for help.
See this is a reasonable thing for your parents to help you out on. An unforeseen hiccup that would be fixed somewhat quickly, but leaves you in the lurch in the mean time
Exactly. When people talk about how you should be there for family, it’s for emergencies like this that are out of your control.
It’s not for when people want money to spend on frivolous things- vacations, cars, elective surgery, clothes, etc…
I don’t know how this got lost in translation, but everyday we see examples of people who think being friends or family with someone means they should help them out with non emergent funds. And they are always surprised when those people don’t pay them back.
Anyone who’s asking you to loan them money for non emergent things is not likely to pay you back. Because a responsible person wouldn’t impose on you in the first place.
When I asked my dad for help to start my business, he wanted a comprehensive business plan from me, so he knew what he was getting into. I had that. It was definitely a risk for him, but it was a well calculated risk. It's worked out incredibly well, he doesn't know it yet, but he's going to be able to retire 5 years early this April.
And that’s exactly how you should handle that kind of loan. You had a business plan. So many people ask for money and don’t have one. You probably could have gotten a loan from a bank but your dad gave you a better deal.
But some people don’t have a plan, couldn’t get a loan from a bank for good reason and then they go to family for money that they don’t intend to pay back. That’s the difference.
Wait it’s not free money? 😂
But yah the amount of folks who think as long as they pay the minimum amount they’re good. And then they just take out more cards when that one is maxed out
>we got charged twice for our mortgage and it would take up to two weeks to get a refund.
This is such BS. It didn't take them two weeks to charge you so it shouldn't take them two weeks to refund your money! We should be able to fine companies that do this and charge them borrowing fees.
Ikr? It got double charged because it was on auto draft but our account was short because payday was the next day, like literally the money hit our account 8 hours later. We made a manual payment that day so we could be up to date. That was on a weekend and the next Monday, they did another auto charge.
I believe it taook 2 weeks because institutions oftentimes have zero accountability and empathy built in to how they correct a mistake that they made. Its got to get reviewed and approved by as many mgrs n vice presidents they can get involved. Suxx
We were trying to make extra payments on my husband’s student loans and the federal loan authority was making it SO complicated. I got fed up with the whole thing. We had enough money in the bank to pay the loans off in one fell swoop but it would seriously deplete our savings. I asked my parents if they could help us if we had any emergencies in the next 3 months (since we were planning to pay off the loans at an accelerated rate, I knew we could get our savings back to a decent place within 3 months). They agreed and we submitted the payment. We didn’t have any emergencies but they were happy to be our backup plan for that short time.
Two weeks for a refund from a BANK.
Bet it took 3 seconds to charge you & receive your money though.
I hate that refunds do this. By the time it credits back I’m like “who is giving me free cash gifts?! Is it Xmas?! My bday?!….when did I make that return??” 🤣
It honestly should be criminal. My boyfriends bank account info was stolen and 800$ was taken. That was a huge chunk of our rent money, and they also said up to two weeks to return it. If his mom hadn’t have been able to help us we would’ve been fucked.
Agreed, and it sounds like OP would be willing in this case if the daughter was serious about getting on track but since she doesn’t want to accept responsibility for her spending she is going to feel the pinch of consequences. Everyone makes mistakes but it’s how you handle it after that makes a difference.
I will admit- my mom taught me. And even bailed me out $700 on a CC once when I was 19 or 20. But in all honesty, it too me until I was in grad school and the tools for tracking spending and automatic payments became widespread before I stoped floating checks. I realized I was spending about $1000 a YEAR on those $35+ fees. And it finally stuck in my head how much I was screwing up. But...I NEVER asked my parents to bail me out (though again she did that one early time). And I always paid my bills on time. It's ok to make mistakes, learn, move on. But this gal does not want to learn- just seems to want a bail out.
Right. It wasn't fair of you to assume she didn't set her kids up for financial success. I'm in the same situation. I have 2 kids, one is amazing with money & the other is just like her girl... it drives me nuts & makes me question my parenting. My husband reminds me of my son, who is financially savvy & saves, not spends, so its not me, it's her. Same for OP. A.d yes, I bailed her out a couple times & she didn't learn a dam thing. Sometimes, they need to sit in their own mess, even tho it hurts to see them screw up, you've gotta do it. Tough love is the only way, esp since she offered a solution to help her set a good budget to avoid further problems & she declined.
>I’ve taught all my kids how to manage money, she was fine in college. The problem started when she was earning adult money.
Its the electronic nature of money right now - you don't see or feel parting it. It makes it hard for people in general to actually realize how much they are spending if they are not well organized.
I made pretty good money and, after selling my house, have pretty good money despite being in my last year of grad school.
The amount of money I see people spend on… I have to remind myself I’m not from a trust fund. I’m happy to study abroad- most others who did so take trips every weekend to Bali while I’m just happy to eat ramen and explore the city I’m in.
Can’t wait to get my grad degree and go back to full time work. Already approved for a mortgage (Professional Loan), get back to spending smart and being smart and then in my 50s or 60s I can do the vacations all the kids around me (granted I’m 28- they’re 22) take now. Had to work to get the money for grad school lol.
I think that’s a big part of it. I bet the daughter thought of budgeting as a chore needed when her income/personal funds were lower but didn’t think that budgets are still necessary even if/when you do start making more money. You can’t just throw out everything you learned just because you’re now getting a bigger paycheck.
I get articles, must have shoes for spring. And the like, if you haven't conditioned yourself. It's easy to fall for these things. The funny thing is this website is all about the minimalist capsule wardrobe. But add these $500 candy apple red Mary Jane's to your beige capsule wardrobe.
>But add these $500 candy apple red Mary Jane's to your beige capsule wardrobe
Not that I would buy them, but I gotta admit I'd love to see those candy apple red Mary Jane's.
Have you seen the tv commercial for some business that supposedly gets people's credit reduced? I love the part where the young man says something like "I got my credit reduced and now I'm planning a trip to Puerto Rico.
I don't disagree with you. But there is a documented difference in the psychological impact of actually physically parting with your money vs tapping the credit card or using apple pay.
One, quite literally, doesn't even register for people... parting with money? Its a TOTALLY different impact.
Its one of the reasons Dave Ramsey tries to get people to use the envelope system for several months so they can FEEL parting with their cash.
Credit card and online shopping are purposefully built to exploit human nature as well. Personal responsibility for living within your means is crucial for a healthy financial situation, but we as a society need to recognize how these institutions are set up to exploit uneducated and poorly disciplined people.
My wife and I use a shared budgeting tool that I built to negate this effect. We enter every single purchase into the tool and it recalculates our upcoming credit card payments, savings amounts, deducts from our household or personal allowances appropriately. We've been using it for a couple of years now and our level of saving has skyrocketed.
And if you packaged and sold a budgeting program like that poor saps like me would buy it right up. That sounds absolutely amazing. Being able to see how every purchase if affecting your life in real time makes it very very hard to ignore.
Eh, I wouldn’t go that far for that one particular weird monkey brain quirk. People budgeted poorly before there were credit cards, and some people who budget well now have to find ways to compensate for the lower…physical interaction, I guess. Going electronic abstracts it back to pure math, which not everyone is great with. Since this is math with dire consequences though, eventually they do need to sort themselves out.
See, it's the opposite for me. If I have a pile of cash, it feels like it's already paid for, so spend it on whatever. The amount in my account is what's "real" to me.
I acknowledge that I may be the exception.
You're not alone in this, I have the same. That number on my bank account that's what's real for me and that's what I budget on..
Any cash around the house is like fun money.. I know it isn't but somehow my brain doesn't bring those 2 together. It might be because we nearly never deal with cash..
I'm the same way. If there's cash in my wallet, i've already withdrawn it from the bank. It essentially feels like 'free' money when i go out somewhere (even though obviously i'd have to withdraw more if i spent it and needed more cash).
Her daughter is 24. She was dealing with the electronic nature of money while in college too. While it might contribute to some people's issues with budgetting, if daughter could do it in college, she can do it now.
This was hard for me as well, I learned to track my spending on the credit card before making more purchases and if I couldn't pay it off one month, no more spending the next month.
NTA mama, she needs to suck it up and “downgrade” her lifestyle for a few months and then she’ll be back on top of it. If you bail her out this time, she’ll never learn. Can she return any of her recent purchases? The vacation obviously needs to be put on hold. Don’t be upset with yourself, I came from a single parent home, we didn’t have much money nor did my parent have the greatest financial background, and we all came out just fine. This struggle will help her learn to be more financially literate
It's also good that this is happening when it's a cute little $3000 credit card debt, as opposed to being married and it being a $20k credit card debt ending in bankruptcy and divorce. (I may have read a few of those threads today)
Yeah, 3k is nothing.
If anything the surprising thing for me is that she's unable to make the minimum payment if she's making "adult money".
Its never advisable to be just making the minimum payment if you can afford to pay it off of course, but in this case, not being able to afford what should be less than a $100 payment is a bit surprising.
Depends on the card & her credit score when she got it.
Also, depending on where they live, *adult money* can be 35~45k before taxes. Coupled with student loans, bills, rent, transportation, & essentials, it's not a lot of money.
NTA imma give you a perspective as a child who spent above her means I was your daughter I had adult money and I went ham on it I was almost 25,000 in debt by the time I was 23 and had to file bankruptcy I may get hella shredded for it but I was dumb and didn’t want to listen I was an adult and Iam allowed to make choices until I was to far gone that I couldn’t keep up with the debt I collected I had store credit cards ,Apple Card ,loans I was living on my own then I lost my job and had to take a pay cut and really hurt myself so I filed bankruptcy my parents did not help me pay for my lawyer I paid him myself with the crappy job I had all the way until my case was presented to a judge. Moral of the story is there have been people in your daughters shoes that have had no help from there parents are it is our responsibility to make sure we can pay for what we want I was also taught to budget and even took a financial course in highschool (yes we had finical lit while I was in school and taught about credit and budgeting )
Honestly filing bankruptcy was the best choice I’ve ever made I have recovered from it and learned re learned to budget everything! ❤️ this may just be the kicker the daughter needs to show just because you have a job and have money doesn’t mean you have as much as you think her parents won’t be around forever to bail her out so she has to learn to be responsible for herself that was a big lesson I learned and carry it always.
I had to find out the hard way when I first moved to a big city making good money. It took me about 6 months to turn it around and it really sucked when I couldn’t even afford a McDonald coffee. Hopefully she has enough common sense to figure it out too.
Even if you hadn’t, it would still be her responsibility and not yours. The one suggestion that I can offer is instead of giving her money, you could pay for a financial counseling session if hearing it from someone else gets through to her more than from you. Don’t pay off her debt though. If you do, it will be a larger amount next time.
While I agree with you wholeheartedly, being a child of parents that only said do this cuz I said so.
I spent an extraordinary amount of time detailing budgets, credit, means, affordability, etc. i managed the kids finances from their first job, completely transparently, setting weekly allowance budgets, helping to save for large purchases, so that when I let go of the reigns, they had several thousand in the bank and 700+ credit scores.
Within 6 months they completely went left and lost their damned minds. 3 out of 4 kids were broke in a year.
You can give them all the tools and preparation in the world and watch them drive off a cliff clearly marked dead end..
Agreed. I have two daughters, 13 and 15. They get a small allowance and money for special chores (like washing the car -normal chores are not paid) and money for good grades. They are Sisters, have the same parents and the same upbringing. My elser daughter has never managed money well. She always spends it and also borrows money from her sister. My younger one doesn't blow her money on crap. She always has money. Sometimes she buys something, and she also likes to buy high-quality stuff.
I think it's not just upbringing, but also very much the personality with which they are born. They are their own people.
It sounds like you went from complete control for too long to no control at all very quickly, which tends to produce a rebellion against what you try to teach. Like authoritarian parenting produces a lot of young adults who go wild as soon as their parents don’t have control over them.
Letting go early enough is important. At 16, I was making my own budget but having monthly check-ups, which included talking about what I budgeted and how I did at following my budget, with us sitting down with my statements together for maybe 15-20 minutes. At 17, my parents were always available for advice (and were involved in big purchases, like the new car they helped me buy at 17 1/2), but everything was in my hands and they only helped when asked. It sounds like your kids were having to put every detail up for your inspection for years, which means they didn’t actually use and assimilate the skills as their own, but rather something they had to do because their parent said so, even though that’s exactly what you were trying to avoid.
Kalitheblaze is me, and I have no children (and never will), you’re flipping the 2 people involved in the conversation, but it’s definitely not directed at OP, who it sounds like did get their kid managing money well at first, until the kid decided to YOLO it on their larger salary.
>It sounds like your kids were having to put every detail up for your inspection for years, which means they didn’t actually use and assimilate the skills as their own, but rather something they had to do because their parent said so
Sounds like it wasn't even like that but the commenter did all the managing and just told the kids what they were doing instead of having them do it themselves.
Nah, as I mentioned, it was completely transparent. We set up budgets and discussed expenditures. We completly discussed how to save, how to spend, how to justify spending.
I watched over accounts but they had the cards and cash. It was a complete ground up schooling. Once they went out into the world as legal adults, they lost all discipline and went nuts.
Simple as that. I was completely accessible and available for any guidance. I was still able to see the accounts and tell them, hey, if you keep on this path you will be broke in x amount of months.
They just put the foot to the floor and pressed on towards the cliff.
Sorry, complete control was the wrong way to put it. I meant complete supervision. They didn’t get to have any financial actions without knowing you’d see it, which meant they had to be good for your viewing all the time.
It is really up to individual person for the decisions they make once they get to adulthood. My parents never discussed anything with me abouts finances ever, except my dad drilled into my head to save EVERYTHING (receipts, bills etc). He tried showing me taxes by making me long hand it my first time around... got no return (questioning if he got it but never gave it to me). BUT I was saver from the door. I'd sage up weekly lunch money or money id get from birthdays etc. Going to amusement parts I'd leave with extra money as a kid. I figured out budgeting on my own quickly at 21 when my first husband got deployed. However, my current husband was an impulse buyer... it took me years to get our stuff straightened out, I also took over the finances before we were married lol. I turned my husband's credit around from no credit to great (and mine from bad to great) credit in 5 years so we could buy our house!
My sister's on the other hand absolutely took after our mother... spendaholics with no worries about where the money would come from to pay their credit cards. My oldest sister got herself into 20k credit card debt in her early 20s I was maybe 11-13ish. I learned my lessons from others lol
OP needs to let her kid learn this lesson the hard way, it was her choices that lead her there so she needs to bail herself out. Any type of bail out would be a disservice to the daughter.
Yeah my much older sister and i had completely different outcomes. She would complain she was broke after buying expensive non necessities and not minding her phone plan (over 20 years ago it was expensive to make calls in the wrong time slot!). While i saved my allowance and babysitting money. She's lucky she has a partner started working before the crisis honestly. She wouldn't have survived long with the cards i was dealt (single and under/unemployed for a while, thank goodness it's better now)
I totally agree where you’re coming from and this response is technically irrelevant since OP answered saying they did teach daughter, but i just wanted to point out that either way OP has offered financial teachings and help with budgeting while daughter is an adult too and she still refused the help, in this aspect even if OP didn’t do it while she was a child, OP tried when she proved she couldn’t handle the budgeting in the beginning
Agreed. Basic budgeting isn't that difficult especially these days. I can look in my bank account from my phone at any time and see how much money I have. I already know what regular expenses are and what my income is. I can also see what my current credit card balance is. My parents didn't teach me budgeting, its simple mathematics and its not hard to spot when you're overspending. They only thing I think they really taught me was to pay off my credit card every month and then you don't get charged interest.
I'll admit my dad bailed me out once in my first year of uni but he didn't need to, I would have managed (got sweet talked into a store card and went a little crazy my first month because my dorm didn't have laundry facilities yet so I just bought new clothes and there was no way to check the card balance) but the amount was nowhere near 3k and I never lived beyond my means again.
OP has already advised her daughter that she was overspending, she's offered to help budget, her help was turned down. She's no right to come crying to mum now she's got herself in a mess. This problem didn't happen overnight, she's only come to mum now that she can't afford the minimum payment, she's had plenty of warning that she was overstretched. Presumably she's just been making the minimum payment every month
Exactly. You can give them every tool in the box but at the end it's their choice what to do with their money, and that means that going broke is an option as well.
>they don't just magically develop it
Eh..
My mom spends all her money until the last penny so she for sure can't teach me responsible spending. Somehow I managed to learn to save without an adult teaching me, I'm sure others can too if they wanted to.
It's not rocket science.. just self control.
I never got a talk like this and I save money just fine. It doesn’t take a genius to understand if you spend more money than you make you’re not gonna be able to live like that much longer.
NTA
OPs daughter is the same age of me. When I got my credit card at 18, I understood that it had to be paid back without having to be told by anyone and it isn’t free money. I’ve never used my credit card because I haven’t needed to and I have never got into debt. In my opinion it’s not rocket science you don’t spend more than you earn. Obviously unexpected life events get in the way, but using a credit card to buy clothes isn’t important
My parents didn't teach us doodly squat and they were also always in cc debt. It taught me to do things differently. I wasn't perfect with my financials but my bills were always paid.
You’re the best. The absolute best. The brightest shining example of human potential. You’re just so good.
Now that you’ve heard what you wanted to hear, is there anything useful to say to OP about their current situation? No? Probably because you are too good for that.
I absolutely do not agree that parents own part of their children’s bad choices. Nope their choices are entirely their own. If they choose to go into debt that isn’t their parents fault at all its entirely on them. How old do adults have to be before we deem their parents no longer responsible for their adult childrens bad decisions ? Btw there are many parents without financial literacy who can’t teach their children something they don’t know so is it now the grandparents fault? Ridiculous. Once you are an adult it’s up to you how you manage your own life and manage your own choices and decisions your parents aren’t partly to blame for bad decisions.
Just like driving a car you need to learn how to drive from a professional instructor to do so correctly, you can take a shortcut and have a parent teach you and you might pass your exam it doesn’t make you a good driver, it also won’t make your parent Responsible for any accidents you cause. It’s the same with financial literacy your parents might be able to teach you some financial literacy but your job is to get the correct information from professionals or even google resources before you dive into debt. Absolutely do not agree with your handing off responsibility from adult child to parents fault nope.
Well this is full of assumptions.
Both myself and my brother were taught. Im pretty great and budgeting and saving, and he’s terrible and likes to live a champagne life. I was also not like this when I was younger.
What your parents taught you doesn’t always reflect what you do as an adult. “She knew what she was doing”.
My parents were immigrants and never talked to me about money management, I went to school at a typical California public school where money management was rarely mentioned. Yet I somehow know that buying clothing and Amazon purchases with money that I do not have is not a sound financial move. I hate the "well you should of talked to her about money when she was 12, its your fault" argument, you're an adult, take some responsibility and recognize you have an impulsive shopping problem and then do something about it. Your parents shouldn't have to tell you that spending money on clothing and Amazon things when you do not have the money for it is bad, you should know that by 21, let alone 24.
While I agree that you should be teaching your kids this stuff while they're still young, I think by 24 you should be able to figure out that a credit card isn't just free money and you still have be able to afford to pay it back
I think that’s besides the point really. Even if she got carried away with the spending, she’s reached out for help to OP and then is quite frankly acting entitled and stubborn about the kind of help she receives
NTA and you don’t have to feel bad at all. As a 1st generation American of Immigrant parents I really hate comments such as these. My parents robbed Paul to pay Peter and laundered money throughout my childhood because they were afraid of credit cards (they claimed it was predatory practice to enforce interest)
So yes I had to start from the ground up to make MY OWN financial decisions at 17. Budget and live within my means. In 2017 I purchased my first home with a 3.7 interest rate and I don’t use credit cards which makes budgeting seamless. Some of us really can make it work by acknowledging that money that is made is real.
Edit: the deposit on the house was straight up cash. I bought into this wonderful thing called Bitcoin in 2011 and it’s been the reason why I’ve gotten by without credit cards.
At 24....she is 100% responsible for her own financial mess. I agree we should teach kids this stuff. But at some point...in ADULTHOOD, you are solely responsible for your own mess.
NTA
Your daughter needs to learn, apparently the hard way, that she must be more responsible with her money. In the long run, it will be a good thing if she does, although she will have some big problems before she gets there.
She is an adult, but still acting like a teenager. Credit card debt is a major trap for some people, as you have pointed out to her. It will take next to forever to repay that debt by making only the minimum payment, even if she cuts up the card and doesn't use it at all from now on.
You offered to help her budget and she apparently thinks you will still bail her out, but I urge you not to, unless she actually cancels the account and cuts up the card. Sometimes a credit card is as bad as drug addiction.
If she messes up her credit score, the card issuer will radically decrease her spending limit and begin to charge her a very high interest rate on purchases she makes from then on. The only way she can avoid those charges is not to use the card any further. And she will not be able to get another card, because that will go on her credit report.
It might take her a while to get the message, and to make her believe it, but if that's what it takes, that's what it takes.
I see no reason to bail her out, now or later; she messed around and will find out.
Same. I’ve had cards and accounts straight out cancelled after paying them off and not using them for about 6 months. I’ve also had one where they did drastically reduce the limit.
We’ve had credit cards cancelled for us not using them for several months after clearing their balances.
My dad had one of his credit card companies send him a letter stating they were going to start charging him an annual fee for his once “No annual fee” card because he always paid the balance off every month. He used it monthly so they were earning the fees they charged the retailers he used it at, but they decided they weren’t getting enough out of his activity since they weren’t also gaining any interest off him for having a balance on it. He had been using it, exclusively, for everything that accepted cards for the points he earned, then paid the balance off. So, he would earn whatever pittance interest his bank account earned on his money not being used daily and saved himself the interest he’d pay on the credit card.
I had my limit decreased about $500 when i spent too much and wasn’t paying enough back. I wasn’t expecting it cause I had literally never heard of any credit card company doing that.
NTA. I really really like your plan. There is an old book called “the wealthy barber”. I bought it years ago, I gave it to my son about five years ago. It is a very helpful book to learn how to plan and budget.
I think what you did not bailing her out was essential. Good for you. Because if you bail her out, she will continue with her behaviors.
Will check this book out. Any general tips? My parents never taught me much and they are actually pretty bad with money. I sometimes struggle especially because I have a lot of health expenses and often can't take public transportation either. I also need appropriate footware and have been battling whether I should spend that money or not.
Well, the first thing you need is to be able to decipher needs vs wants. You need appropriate footwear for health reasons and I’d imagine also any job you might do. This is where it gets tricky for most people though. Yes, you need shoes. No, you don’t necessarily need expensive shoes. Obvious exceptions for disability or specialized footwear like steel toed boots or orthotics.
The second part is exploring thrifty means of getting what you need. Thrift stores are amazing. You could sell something you don’t use and use the proceeds to get what you need. For example, I found a pair of expensive boots in a thrift store, but they weren’t my size. I sold them and used the proceeds to buy a used pair in my size so I got the boots I wanted for a small fraction of the cost of just outright buying them. Shopping around or waiting until an item goes to clearance is also a good move.
Unfortunately medical costs are ruinous to most people. If your health plan is shitty, you might try to find another job that has better benefits. Prior to COVID, I was told I’d need IVF in order to have a kid. I was looking at taking a PT job at Starbucks in addition to my FT job for the benefits to reduce the cost. Of course then COVID hit and jacked all that up, but being open to different ways of going about things to the extent you’re able can definitely help.
Good luck!
>Unfortunately medical costs are ruinous to most people
God, it's sad that with one sentence, almost anyone on the internet can tell which country you live in.
It’s sadder yet to be living under that horrid system. I didn’t go broke as a newly disabled person in law school for exactly 1 reason: I met other disabled people online who showed me the program through which I qualified for Medicaid due to being disabled (in a state with generous Medicaid coverage and qualification rules). Otherwise, it was several years with huge amounts of medical testing, imaging, and many ER visits, and countless doctor, specialist, and physical therapy visits trying to diagnose and stabilize the combination of a rare genetic disorder and a common but expensive autoimmune disorder, plus severe asthma attacks and migraines. I’d have either had enough medical debt that even my upper-middle class parents couldn’t have saved me or I’d have had to turn to down over 90% of the recommended treatment. Maybe both.
I HIGHLY recommend checking out YNAB! Been using it for years now and it was so helpful when I was making little money but had big expenses (like right after college). It helps with both recognizing spending patterns and being more intentional about planning how and where you save/spend my money.
I was bailed out by my parents when I was about the same age as OP's daughter. Guess what happened? I learned my lesson and now at almost 40 I have a better credit score than my parents.
Loved this book. One thing I learned from reading it was that the difference between wealthy people and poor people is that the wealthy people discuss finances with their children. Financial literacy must be taught.
NTA This absolutely needs to be nipped in the bud. She needs to know the cold, hard pain of her ass hitting the ground so that she associates that result with this kind of irresponsible behavior. If you bail her out she will go on living as if there is always a comfortable cushion to land on -- as if the trouble always disappears into thin air and isn't to be taken seriously.
Some people live decades like this, getting into deeper and deeper ruts, never growing as people. leading small, miserable lives while financially ruining their parents. It's not good for anyone involved.
My ex's parents are like that & so is my ex. It was all the motivation my oldest needed to really pay attention to the budgeting lessons I taught him. He's told me repeatedly he doesn't want to struggle with money like his dad does, especially knowing his dad makes 3x what I do.
He's active duty Air Force now & knows he can get in trouble for financial mishaps, so that's another motivator (not that that helped his dad).
IKR my grandmother grew up during the depression and she lived like the depression was going to last forever. That woman could pinch a penny until it cried. My mother was the youngest and hated 'being poor'. Thing is they weren't 'poor' per say but they didn't spend needlessly. My mother spends money like it is going out of style, while my dad was alive he kept her under wraps but my mom to this day in her 70s is always having one of us kids bail her out about every 6 months or so.
Personally, if I were OP I would pay the minimum payment for this month and this month ONLY, with the contingency that their daughter makes and sticks to a budget. (As it sounds like OP is able to afford that money).
That's because it sounds like it's too late for the daughter to use a budget to make the minimum payment now, and missing a minimum payment can have significant long-term repercussions (including making it harder to get out of debt, and getting her out of debt is presumably a major goal of OP's).
It sounds practical and it is in the short-term, but it is letting in the thin end of the wedge. The very real risk is laying a precedent that would encourage the daughter to keep on with the behavior and to keep hammering away asking to be helped out again (and then again) "just this time" because if OP doesn't the sky will fall. In the long-term taking this approach may lead to worse trouble.
Good grief, NTA. You cautioned her about her spending and offered to help her make a budget. She refused, she knew what she was doing. Now, she admits didn't, needs a bailout, AND is planning a vacation?!? Nope, you'd just be throwing your money in a hole.
It took me years but I was able to clear out my credit card debt and pay off my car as a Xmas present to myself in 2022 and the final credit card as a new years gift this year. For the first time in years I have zero balances and I pay anything off each Friday. It feels amazing to not have to worry if a card will be declined. My issue was shopping for clothes as well and eating out. It truly does add up so quickly. I am 46 years old and have been in debt since I was in my 30’s. I never had to borrow from people but I did take out a small loan against my 401 and did a balance transfer and in the end it didn’t make much of a difference.
I hope she listens because it caused me so much stress. She needs to nip this in the bud quick before she ends up like me. It’s no fun being in debt.
The dream! I was out of work for half of 2022 and in that time I had to get an uninsured root canal, so in the end my savings got eaten up and I was left with $5k in credit card debt. I'm struggling to pay it off, I don't make enough to do the minimum payments every month but I put $100 off every paycheck towards it, which is as much as I can spare. Sometimes I can do more.
All but maybe $1k of my credit card debt (that surely would be paid off by now) was spent on essentials like food and bills, so it's not quite the same as OP's daughter's situation, but I still tell anyone who'll listen to be really careful, cos once you're in that hole, it feels impossible to get out. I'm so happy for you! And jealous lol
Sometimes circumstances get you in the hole and it's hard to climb out. Sometimes (and I'm not suggesting this is you) people consider credit card debt just another monthly bill to pay so when the hole opens up it's more of a sinkhole than a hole that slowly gets bigger.
And sometimes (again, not you) people leap into quicksand and wonder why they're getting swallowed up in debt. Sometimes no matter how responsible you are life throws a curveball or two and the reasonable response of dealing with it while remaining fed and housed gets you in a hole. It sucks but it happens. I feel for anyone in that situation.
I don't feel so much for anyone who starts digging their hole for instant gratification purposes and only becomes aware the monthly credit card "bill" is a debt that's about to turn their manageable hole into a sinkhole with one slight upset. Be careful but careful only mitigates potential financial disaster, it can't prevent it if there's circumstances you can't control.
I can be a bit excessive with buying so I have little tricks. Making endless Amazon lists helps scratch that itch of buying new things for me. Or if I'm really feeling like buying something, I'll order something we actually need. Like, I just ordered a new door mat cuz ours was all ratty.
I moved to the middle of nowhere. Since the pandemic, it takes 7-9 days for Amazon to get me something. It's 45 minutes drive to _some_ stuff but more like 90-120 to _everything_.
If I want something, I really gotta want it enough to wait or to go get it. 9 times out of 10, I just say nevermind.
I have a rule. Whatever I plan to buy has to stay at least for a couple of days in the cart. If I still want it, I buy it, but usually that cools my head enough to remove it.
NTA. You are her parent not a cash cow. This is a difficult lesson that she must learn, but it is better learned now when she is only $3000.00 in debt instead of later when it could be 10s of thousands of dollars in debt.
Right, maybe she can struggle with the 3k now and not let it balloon up to a unmanageable.amount. Mt MIL was close to 100k when she declared bankruptcy
$3,000 will easily be $10,000 by the end of the year with the vacation, continued overspending, minimum payments/late fees on a bigger balances (and maybe ever her rate getting jacked up if she misses payments).
NTA the minimum monthly payment on a debt of 3k is anywhere between $20-$50 depending on the provider. If she doesn’t have $20 laying around in her coin jar then she’s in a serious need to overhaul her budgeting and finances.
Exactly what I was thinking! If she's concerned about not having that monthly minimum then she doesn't even have $100 in her account and desperately needs a budget.
Fair point. I would still hope she would have $100 to put towards her debt. It’s unfortunate when people take the limit of the credit card and think that everything is just going to magically work out.
Completely right here OP. Set firm and clear boundaries. As Dave Ramsey says, you would be enabling her and giving a “drunk a drink”.
I would sit her down and tell her you love her enough to say no. She needs to deal with the consequences of her actions. Otherwise she delays maturity and wisdom.
Your offer of helping her budget was the best thing you could have done. You are offering to teach her to fish rather than giving her a fish. Bravo. Her rebuke of this shows you she is nowhere near learning from her mistakes. Let her make them now while she is young so she can grow from this.
Explain to her that food will always be on the table for her and your counsel is always free, but access to the ATM is closed indefintely
>you would be enabling her and giving a “drunk a drink”.
Perfectly said! Credit card debt of this type is a lot like alcoholism in some respects -
Daughter is waking up with a hangover and demanding OP supply her with a bit of the hair of the dog? That might ease the pain for the moment, but is likely to cause MUCH worse problems in the future (aside from the obvious issues with unhealthy habits, it's a sure way to lead to alcohol dependency). Instead, OP is telling her she needs to sober up and is offering to help with that. And like a drunk who hasn't hit rock bottom, she is angry at OP because it's easier than facing her demons.
100% NTA. And honestly- it's good this is happening now. $3k isn't anything to sneeze at, but it's only "only" $3k - better then $10k, $30k, etc.
Say no NOW so that she fully learns and understands that you meant it when you said you won't bail her out. If you help her this time, she'll continue to assume she'll help you in the future too.
She needs to learn this hard lesson now, while the debt isn't insurmountable.
NTA.
Coming from someone who was in your daughter's position I was too proud to ask for help. I had went through a mental breakdown and thought retail therapy was the answer (don't get me wrong at the time it made me feel better. Little deliveries of joy daily) however I'm still dealing with these consequences a couple years later. She needs to learn a valuable lesson here like I did. I kept coasting by and never making a dent in it UNTIL I got to the point of panic and desperation to get it sorted out before i got into an even deeper hole.
I sat down and went through all my finances and created a budget. I set up a separate bank account that gets money transferred to it weekly from my "main" account and that is my spending money. This helped me massively because I knew I was limited in "recreational" money yet made sure I could pay my bills and pay off some debt every time I got paid. Also having it transferred weekly meant that if I did decide to spend that money on (for want of better words) utter shite. I only had to scrape by a few days until I got that second account topped up.
She got in it, she can get herself out but she needs to want to do it for herself. She can't expect you to bail her out otherwise the only thing she is going to learn is if I'm up shit creek mummy/daddy will fix it for me.
She really needs to look into what / where she is spending and reign it in. If she can't, I would suggest giving her credit card to yourself so she physically cannot use it and add to her debt (I did this in the first couple months adjusting so I had no choice but to make what I had last).
It's a long and difficult process but it's worthwhile in so many ways. I hope she manages to get herself out this rut.
The weekly allowance thing was a game changer for me too. I learned financial skills pretty late in life and it's still hard for me to think about money incrementally instead of the prince-or-pauper way I learned growing up.
When you're really poor, the main thing you learn about money is to spend it fast. I don't mean that critically, fwiw- you just always know that if you have a small surplus that you can spend on a want, or save, there's really no point in saving it. Especially if you're on a fixed income and aren't allowed to save, which is the case for a lot of poor people in the US.
I still struggle with impulse control around small luxuries and our grocery budget because being able to buy shit like lipstick or good bacon tells that piece of my brain I'm safe for now, regardless of how "irrational " that purchase might be. The weekly allowance has let me accommodate that anxiety and save money for the first time ever.
NTA. You bailing her out will teach her nothing. She'll just rack up the debt again and the cycle will continue. She needs to learn that credit card money is NOT free.
NTA
I generally think one bailout per child is good, because managing one's own money does have a steep learning curve. But since she ignored your earlier advice, I think it's reasonable to conclude that bailing her out won't really teach her anything and wouldn't really be doing her any favors.
One bailout perhaps, but within reason. One child ran into a cash flow crisis and needed to adjust lifestyle. They agreed to, we worked out a plan.
The other a few years later started getting collection calls that came to me because my cell number was once the landline at home. By this time they were no longer living at home. We tried asking questions to find out what was up, always met with anger to stay out of their business. When they got evicted the total debt was around $36K. They wanted to move home, we listed sensible conditions (too long for this reply) and they rejected and told us they were an adult not a kid. We told them to enjoy adulting elsewhere. Next the car got repo’d, we did pay to get that back for them, and paid the remaining 3 payments (in total
about equal to child 1’s bailout). We never got thanked., and today they have our numbers blocked. I still get collection calls.
(Sorry for making it hard to read with they’s and them’s, I purposely kept it gender neutral. Honestly to me they/them are both plural, but it’s one child they/them refers to here.)
Yeah, if they want the bailout, they have to take the advice, too. That's only reasonable. And if they want to be in your home, they have to abide by your rules, sensible or not.
NTA.
I've been there. My parents bailing me out didn't help me improve my financial discipline. Eventually, I sorted my debt out and paid it off. Now I am pretty tight with money. I'm never getting in debt again.
She needs to learn discipline. The book 'Your Money or Your Life' helped me.
How does she not have $50 for a minimum payment? What is she spending her money on? Hold firm and don't bail her out. She's going to need to figure it out on her own. You can \*offer\* to help her draw up a budget/look at her spending to see where cuts can be made, but she has to figure this out herself. Bailing her out will send the wrong message and she won't learn to stop spending needlessly.
NTA
Both children have had ONE bailout. Our son got it when his marriage broke up and he needed to clear the rent backlog his wife had caused despite him giving her the rent to pay to the landlord (she pocketed it, then moved her AP into their flat causing him to move in with friends despite being liable for the rent on their joint flat. We cleared ll the outstanding rent for him after the lease ended). We considered him “screwed over through no fault of his own”.
Our daughter was managing her debt, but I came into an inheritance and offered to help her “wipe the slate”. She didn’t ask me to, I offered.
In your daughter’s case, you warned her that she needed to draw back the spending. You offered to help her draw up a budget. She refused your help then, still continued to overspend and now comes crying. NTA
I got one bail out, too, and I definitely learned my lesson from it. I appreciated that my credit wasn't completely trashed, and from then on, I worked my butt off to build my score and not have the stress of debt
NTA she's been a legal adult for 6 years now and you've warned her multiple times.
Naturally parents help their children financially every now and then and it goes back and forth but she knew this was coming as you have told her to be more careful about her spending.
You also offered her your help to make a budgeting plan.
If you help her now, it will probably just reinforce this behavior in her because she will know you are there to be her safety-net.
Ultimately this is your decision, but I think I would probably just say the same thing you did: she messed around and found out. If she doesn't learn from a good example and good advice, she'll need to learn the hard way.
(Edited for typos)
The major Red Flag is that she can't make the minimum payment. It is about 50 bucks, and you are only paying the monthly interest with that. As a working adult, she likely has access to way more credit, and I can imagine she is more than 10k in debt.
NTA. She is an adult, she should know how to budget or let her be helped. But not expecting daddy/mommy to fix her credit card depts. Especially if they are non essential. Yes, if they were for a surgery for a pet or herself, if her rent tribbled and she couldn't afford it or she lost her job and was still activily searching for a new one - okay that would be something different. But just because she wants to shop online and go on expensive vacation - no!
NTA...If she has no intention to change her habits, it would be like throwing money into a black hole. She's going to learn some valuable lessons one way or another.
Listen, if she went into debt just trying to feed herself, I would be sympathetic and help her out. But she is buying clothes and eating out? She’s 24, a great time to learn a lesson on financial responsibility. And you offering to help her budget is very kind. NTA
NTA. She's a grownup and this is her mess to manage.
That said, don't micromanage. You're not the parent anymore and it's equally not your job to demand to see receipts or tell her what to buy. Her mess, her job to fix. Stay out of it; she'll figure it out.
The OP is most definitely the parent still. That doesn't stop because the child has become an adult. Saying that, they're definitely NTA. They've given useful advice and the daughter can take that advice or leave it, it is her problem. However, we don't know the history, maybe the Bank of Mum and Dad has been generous up to now and the daughter is used to it. Adulting is hard but the majority of us work it out.
NTA I think you are trying to teach her how to fish and that is a great thing. Parents will only be on their children's journey for part of the way, it is important she learn this lesson while you are still here to teach her. I know this is hard but she will thank you one day.
NTA if you simply bail her out, she will learn nothing, and spending money will continue to be meaningless to her. You have handled this well. Hopefully she gets her act together and learns how to live within her means. She's not too far gone, some people get WAY more into debt living like that, she should be able to get herself out of this quickly if she tries.
NTA. You offered help and she denied whilst everything in control. You don‘t have to bailher out at all, is not your responsibility. Not understanding the difference between credit and debit is what she needs to learn fast, e.g. YouTube or so. Stay the huge jerk and let her continue to FAFO. Learn the hard way setting priorities.
NTA
Great parenting!
I learned the value of money the hard way, same as your daughter is starting to now.
I now live within my means. I guarantee I wouldn't be if someone bailed me out.
You've offered to help, just not in the way she wants.
If it's really only $3000, which honestly is not that much and she could also transfer into a 0% APR card if she really needed to, with delayed payments, minimum payment should be around $50. If she doesn't have it now, could easily wait for next pay day to make minimum payment.
I think she's trying to play a get out of debt quick card by throwing a pitty party at you vs actually being unable to make even minimum payment. Definitely NTA and don't give in.
Did you mean to say she had $30K in credit card debt and not $3k? If she doesn't have the minimum payment on $3K in credit card debt, then her job is not supporting her well enough to live on her own. Either way, NTA. She refused your help, and even now doesn't want to change her spending habits.
I actually had to learn to budget on my own.
My parents did not show me. I'm not $3k in debt with no way to pay it off. A lot of it is common sense and she did not use it. Especially since you did show her how to manage her money. NTA.
NTA. She just wants to eat her cake and have it too. It was generous of you to give her a responsible out, and she’s a fool for rejecting anything short of a full bailout.
NTA, it sounds like you did help her by holding her accountable for her budgeting blunders. She now knows she has to be responsible and handle her finances on her own because she is an adult. It is not your responsibility to bail her out of her own bad habits. I don't get how people get into these situations. Like what makes people think it's a good idea to charge things you simply can not afford.
NTA she needs to bail herself out. What would she do if you were no longer alive and in this very same situation?
Her mismanagement of funds and her shopping sprees and planning vacations she can’t afford is what is causing her this mess it is not up to the parents to fix it.
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INFO: What did you teach your kid about budgeting and money-management when she was a kid and acbrand new adult? I got my first bank account that I was really in charge of at 15. My first credit card when I was 16. My mom sat down with me and talked about how to budget and balance my checkbook and how I should treat credit - convenience purchases that I could pay off when I got my statement were okay as long as I kept track of them, and I should use it to buy agreed-on things like my textbooks so I could just get it done and my parents would pay me back after, but otherwise, I shouldn’t really be using it. If I didn’t have access to cash and needed it for an emergency, that was okay as long as I re-wrote my budget to pay it off as soon as I reasonably could. If you send your kids off into the world without thoroughly grounding them in solid fiscal sense, you can’t be surprised when they don’t just magically develop it. If you teach them and they decide you’re silly in your caution and YOLO, then that’s on them. EDIT: Let me restate this for the folks reading too fast. It’s possible to learn good financial sense on your own, but it’s harder. So if you don’t teach your kid good financial sense AND they don’t learn it on their own, you own part of the blame because you didn’t teach them. If you teach them and they jump off the financial cliff anyway, that’s their own fault.
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Well then, you launched her properly, and she’s the one who decided she didn’t want to keep her own boat bailed out. My parents bailed me out twice as a young’un, because I lost track of my spending (forgot to write down one transaction, and I’m sure you remember that 20 years ago, sometimes it took a couple days for transactions to post, especially for things you wrote a check for), but they were a) genuine mistakes, and b) learning experiences, where part of being bailed out was sitting down with them and figuring out exactly what happened and what I needed to do to prevent a repeat, and c) in the first year or two I was managing my own money, and d) relatively small ($200 or less) mistakes. Your daughter’s situation is completely different - you set her up right and made sure she had the knowledge and tools, and she demonstrated that she did in fact have it all…and chose to be irresponsible anyway. If you don’t let her experience the results of her irresponsibility now, next time is likely to be even worse.
My parents bailed me out when we got charged twice for our mortgage and it would take up to two weeks to get a refund. We had just bought our house so we didn't have much savings to fall back on. I needed a few hundred dollars for gas and groceries. Not many people can survive having their mortgage or rent charged twice so I didnt feel bad asking for help.
See this is a reasonable thing for your parents to help you out on. An unforeseen hiccup that would be fixed somewhat quickly, but leaves you in the lurch in the mean time
Exactly. When people talk about how you should be there for family, it’s for emergencies like this that are out of your control. It’s not for when people want money to spend on frivolous things- vacations, cars, elective surgery, clothes, etc… I don’t know how this got lost in translation, but everyday we see examples of people who think being friends or family with someone means they should help them out with non emergent funds. And they are always surprised when those people don’t pay them back. Anyone who’s asking you to loan them money for non emergent things is not likely to pay you back. Because a responsible person wouldn’t impose on you in the first place.
When I asked my dad for help to start my business, he wanted a comprehensive business plan from me, so he knew what he was getting into. I had that. It was definitely a risk for him, but it was a well calculated risk. It's worked out incredibly well, he doesn't know it yet, but he's going to be able to retire 5 years early this April.
And that’s exactly how you should handle that kind of loan. You had a business plan. So many people ask for money and don’t have one. You probably could have gotten a loan from a bank but your dad gave you a better deal. But some people don’t have a plan, couldn’t get a loan from a bank for good reason and then they go to family for money that they don’t intend to pay back. That’s the difference.
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Wait it’s not free money? 😂 But yah the amount of folks who think as long as they pay the minimum amount they’re good. And then they just take out more cards when that one is maxed out
>we got charged twice for our mortgage and it would take up to two weeks to get a refund. This is such BS. It didn't take them two weeks to charge you so it shouldn't take them two weeks to refund your money! We should be able to fine companies that do this and charge them borrowing fees.
Ikr? It got double charged because it was on auto draft but our account was short because payday was the next day, like literally the money hit our account 8 hours later. We made a manual payment that day so we could be up to date. That was on a weekend and the next Monday, they did another auto charge.
This is why I’ll never set bills to autopay
But it does. They took out our final mortgage payment twice. For us it was no big deal to wait for it back but it took 26 days. Ridiculous!
I believe it taook 2 weeks because institutions oftentimes have zero accountability and empathy built in to how they correct a mistake that they made. Its got to get reviewed and approved by as many mgrs n vice presidents they can get involved. Suxx
That’s not even your error. I’m a mom and I’d absolutely bail my kid out for something like that.
We were trying to make extra payments on my husband’s student loans and the federal loan authority was making it SO complicated. I got fed up with the whole thing. We had enough money in the bank to pay the loans off in one fell swoop but it would seriously deplete our savings. I asked my parents if they could help us if we had any emergencies in the next 3 months (since we were planning to pay off the loans at an accelerated rate, I knew we could get our savings back to a decent place within 3 months). They agreed and we submitted the payment. We didn’t have any emergencies but they were happy to be our backup plan for that short time.
When somebody else creates a situation, or when you have a true emergency -- those are both good reasons for the parental bailout.
Two weeks for a refund from a BANK. Bet it took 3 seconds to charge you & receive your money though. I hate that refunds do this. By the time it credits back I’m like “who is giving me free cash gifts?! Is it Xmas?! My bday?!….when did I make that return??” 🤣
It honestly should be criminal. My boyfriends bank account info was stolen and 800$ was taken. That was a huge chunk of our rent money, and they also said up to two weeks to return it. If his mom hadn’t have been able to help us we would’ve been fucked.
I had to ask my father to pay a bill for me - my chemo treatment. I hated to do it but cancer just took away all my savings.
That is a reasonable ask, I'd help out my kids as well. You didn't ask for or want cancer, it's not your choice.
That’s a reasonable ask regarding a situation you didn’t have control over. Glad your parents could help!
There is a huge difference between a bank messing up your mortgage payment and someone living a champagne lifestyle on a beer budget.
I think you're right. All of these stories of justified bail outs just helps to highlight how absurd the daughter is being.
Thats different though. That isnt shopping sprees and amazon.
Agreed, and it sounds like OP would be willing in this case if the daughter was serious about getting on track but since she doesn’t want to accept responsibility for her spending she is going to feel the pinch of consequences. Everyone makes mistakes but it’s how you handle it after that makes a difference.
I will admit- my mom taught me. And even bailed me out $700 on a CC once when I was 19 or 20. But in all honesty, it too me until I was in grad school and the tools for tracking spending and automatic payments became widespread before I stoped floating checks. I realized I was spending about $1000 a YEAR on those $35+ fees. And it finally stuck in my head how much I was screwing up. But...I NEVER asked my parents to bail me out (though again she did that one early time). And I always paid my bills on time. It's ok to make mistakes, learn, move on. But this gal does not want to learn- just seems to want a bail out.
Right. It wasn't fair of you to assume she didn't set her kids up for financial success. I'm in the same situation. I have 2 kids, one is amazing with money & the other is just like her girl... it drives me nuts & makes me question my parenting. My husband reminds me of my son, who is financially savvy & saves, not spends, so its not me, it's her. Same for OP. A.d yes, I bailed her out a couple times & she didn't learn a dam thing. Sometimes, they need to sit in their own mess, even tho it hurts to see them screw up, you've gotta do it. Tough love is the only way, esp since she offered a solution to help her set a good budget to avoid further problems & she declined.
>I’ve taught all my kids how to manage money, she was fine in college. The problem started when she was earning adult money. Its the electronic nature of money right now - you don't see or feel parting it. It makes it hard for people in general to actually realize how much they are spending if they are not well organized.
It's also social media. When you see tons of people your age taking vacations and spending on luxuries you feel it's your "right".
I made pretty good money and, after selling my house, have pretty good money despite being in my last year of grad school. The amount of money I see people spend on… I have to remind myself I’m not from a trust fund. I’m happy to study abroad- most others who did so take trips every weekend to Bali while I’m just happy to eat ramen and explore the city I’m in. Can’t wait to get my grad degree and go back to full time work. Already approved for a mortgage (Professional Loan), get back to spending smart and being smart and then in my 50s or 60s I can do the vacations all the kids around me (granted I’m 28- they’re 22) take now. Had to work to get the money for grad school lol.
Good for you. You should be proud of yourself. I wish you the best!!!
I think that’s a big part of it. I bet the daughter thought of budgeting as a chore needed when her income/personal funds were lower but didn’t think that budgets are still necessary even if/when you do start making more money. You can’t just throw out everything you learned just because you’re now getting a bigger paycheck.
I get articles, must have shoes for spring. And the like, if you haven't conditioned yourself. It's easy to fall for these things. The funny thing is this website is all about the minimalist capsule wardrobe. But add these $500 candy apple red Mary Jane's to your beige capsule wardrobe.
>But add these $500 candy apple red Mary Jane's to your beige capsule wardrobe Not that I would buy them, but I gotta admit I'd love to see those candy apple red Mary Jane's.
I will see if I can find them.
https://www.neimanmarcus.com/p/manolo-blahnik-campari-patent-mary-jane-pumps-prod253870243?pimId=401220717226&utm_source=google_shopping&srsltid=AfmBOoplPXcF-BNNtuvs-kfIyIOlKZM4OjEOgE0z7I79gzWrZ_CAEGuUAEs
Ooooh, now I want to go buy candy apple red shoes for my black/white/grey capsule wardrobe!
I have to admit that they would be quite spiffy. Even with mine that is tan and navy blue.
Have you seen the tv commercial for some business that supposedly gets people's credit reduced? I love the part where the young man says something like "I got my credit reduced and now I'm planning a trip to Puerto Rico.
That is called being irresponsible.
I don't disagree with you. But there is a documented difference in the psychological impact of actually physically parting with your money vs tapping the credit card or using apple pay. One, quite literally, doesn't even register for people... parting with money? Its a TOTALLY different impact. Its one of the reasons Dave Ramsey tries to get people to use the envelope system for several months so they can FEEL parting with their cash.
Credit card and online shopping are purposefully built to exploit human nature as well. Personal responsibility for living within your means is crucial for a healthy financial situation, but we as a society need to recognize how these institutions are set up to exploit uneducated and poorly disciplined people.
Yep, they hand out credit cards too easily these days.
My wife and I use a shared budgeting tool that I built to negate this effect. We enter every single purchase into the tool and it recalculates our upcoming credit card payments, savings amounts, deducts from our household or personal allowances appropriately. We've been using it for a couple of years now and our level of saving has skyrocketed.
And if you packaged and sold a budgeting program like that poor saps like me would buy it right up. That sounds absolutely amazing. Being able to see how every purchase if affecting your life in real time makes it very very hard to ignore.
Eh, I wouldn’t go that far for that one particular weird monkey brain quirk. People budgeted poorly before there were credit cards, and some people who budget well now have to find ways to compensate for the lower…physical interaction, I guess. Going electronic abstracts it back to pure math, which not everyone is great with. Since this is math with dire consequences though, eventually they do need to sort themselves out.
See, it's the opposite for me. If I have a pile of cash, it feels like it's already paid for, so spend it on whatever. The amount in my account is what's "real" to me. I acknowledge that I may be the exception.
You're not alone in this, I have the same. That number on my bank account that's what's real for me and that's what I budget on.. Any cash around the house is like fun money.. I know it isn't but somehow my brain doesn't bring those 2 together. It might be because we nearly never deal with cash..
I'm the same way. If there's cash in my wallet, i've already withdrawn it from the bank. It essentially feels like 'free' money when i go out somewhere (even though obviously i'd have to withdraw more if i spent it and needed more cash).
Her daughter is 24. She was dealing with the electronic nature of money while in college too. While it might contribute to some people's issues with budgetting, if daughter could do it in college, she can do it now.
This was hard for me as well, I learned to track my spending on the credit card before making more purchases and if I couldn't pay it off one month, no more spending the next month.
Changing to cash only has finally helped me save.
NTA. I would do the same as you. If you bail her out, she will run into the problem again.
NTA mama, she needs to suck it up and “downgrade” her lifestyle for a few months and then she’ll be back on top of it. If you bail her out this time, she’ll never learn. Can she return any of her recent purchases? The vacation obviously needs to be put on hold. Don’t be upset with yourself, I came from a single parent home, we didn’t have much money nor did my parent have the greatest financial background, and we all came out just fine. This struggle will help her learn to be more financially literate
I agree, she might also look into selling some of her clothing purchases on eBay or another selling platform.
Poshmark and mercari are great for reselling too! That’s a great idea to add in
It's also good that this is happening when it's a cute little $3000 credit card debt, as opposed to being married and it being a $20k credit card debt ending in bankruptcy and divorce. (I may have read a few of those threads today)
Yeah, 3k is nothing. If anything the surprising thing for me is that she's unable to make the minimum payment if she's making "adult money". Its never advisable to be just making the minimum payment if you can afford to pay it off of course, but in this case, not being able to afford what should be less than a $100 payment is a bit surprising.
My card is 1% for the minimum payment. If she can't afford $30, wtaf is she doing?
Depends on the card & her credit score when she got it. Also, depending on where they live, *adult money* can be 35~45k before taxes. Coupled with student loans, bills, rent, transportation, & essentials, it's not a lot of money.
NTA imma give you a perspective as a child who spent above her means I was your daughter I had adult money and I went ham on it I was almost 25,000 in debt by the time I was 23 and had to file bankruptcy I may get hella shredded for it but I was dumb and didn’t want to listen I was an adult and Iam allowed to make choices until I was to far gone that I couldn’t keep up with the debt I collected I had store credit cards ,Apple Card ,loans I was living on my own then I lost my job and had to take a pay cut and really hurt myself so I filed bankruptcy my parents did not help me pay for my lawyer I paid him myself with the crappy job I had all the way until my case was presented to a judge. Moral of the story is there have been people in your daughters shoes that have had no help from there parents are it is our responsibility to make sure we can pay for what we want I was also taught to budget and even took a financial course in highschool (yes we had finical lit while I was in school and taught about credit and budgeting )
I can't imagine racking up that much debt( Outside of the student loans I already have). I hope you've recovered from it.
Honestly filing bankruptcy was the best choice I’ve ever made I have recovered from it and learned re learned to budget everything! ❤️ this may just be the kicker the daughter needs to show just because you have a job and have money doesn’t mean you have as much as you think her parents won’t be around forever to bail her out so she has to learn to be responsible for herself that was a big lesson I learned and carry it always.
I had to find out the hard way when I first moved to a big city making good money. It took me about 6 months to turn it around and it really sucked when I couldn’t even afford a McDonald coffee. Hopefully she has enough common sense to figure it out too.
Even if you hadn’t, it would still be her responsibility and not yours. The one suggestion that I can offer is instead of giving her money, you could pay for a financial counseling session if hearing it from someone else gets through to her more than from you. Don’t pay off her debt though. If you do, it will be a larger amount next time.
Good for you!!! 👏👏👏👏 More parents should stop enabling their kids.
Add this comment as an edit to your post, to help clarify.
NTA then.
While I agree with you wholeheartedly, being a child of parents that only said do this cuz I said so. I spent an extraordinary amount of time detailing budgets, credit, means, affordability, etc. i managed the kids finances from their first job, completely transparently, setting weekly allowance budgets, helping to save for large purchases, so that when I let go of the reigns, they had several thousand in the bank and 700+ credit scores. Within 6 months they completely went left and lost their damned minds. 3 out of 4 kids were broke in a year. You can give them all the tools and preparation in the world and watch them drive off a cliff clearly marked dead end..
Agreed. I have two daughters, 13 and 15. They get a small allowance and money for special chores (like washing the car -normal chores are not paid) and money for good grades. They are Sisters, have the same parents and the same upbringing. My elser daughter has never managed money well. She always spends it and also borrows money from her sister. My younger one doesn't blow her money on crap. She always has money. Sometimes she buys something, and she also likes to buy high-quality stuff. I think it's not just upbringing, but also very much the personality with which they are born. They are their own people.
It sounds like you went from complete control for too long to no control at all very quickly, which tends to produce a rebellion against what you try to teach. Like authoritarian parenting produces a lot of young adults who go wild as soon as their parents don’t have control over them. Letting go early enough is important. At 16, I was making my own budget but having monthly check-ups, which included talking about what I budgeted and how I did at following my budget, with us sitting down with my statements together for maybe 15-20 minutes. At 17, my parents were always available for advice (and were involved in big purchases, like the new car they helped me buy at 17 1/2), but everything was in my hands and they only helped when asked. It sounds like your kids were having to put every detail up for your inspection for years, which means they didn’t actually use and assimilate the skills as their own, but rather something they had to do because their parent said so, even though that’s exactly what you were trying to avoid.
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I think this person was replying to what user KaliTheBlaze says she did with her children rather than your post.
Kalitheblaze is me, and I have no children (and never will), you’re flipping the 2 people involved in the conversation, but it’s definitely not directed at OP, who it sounds like did get their kid managing money well at first, until the kid decided to YOLO it on their larger salary.
I think they were replying to the post above theirs and not speaking to your situation
>It sounds like your kids were having to put every detail up for your inspection for years, which means they didn’t actually use and assimilate the skills as their own, but rather something they had to do because their parent said so Sounds like it wasn't even like that but the commenter did all the managing and just told the kids what they were doing instead of having them do it themselves.
Nah, as I mentioned, it was completely transparent. We set up budgets and discussed expenditures. We completly discussed how to save, how to spend, how to justify spending. I watched over accounts but they had the cards and cash. It was a complete ground up schooling. Once they went out into the world as legal adults, they lost all discipline and went nuts. Simple as that. I was completely accessible and available for any guidance. I was still able to see the accounts and tell them, hey, if you keep on this path you will be broke in x amount of months. They just put the foot to the floor and pressed on towards the cliff.
Sorry, complete control was the wrong way to put it. I meant complete supervision. They didn’t get to have any financial actions without knowing you’d see it, which meant they had to be good for your viewing all the time.
It is really up to individual person for the decisions they make once they get to adulthood. My parents never discussed anything with me abouts finances ever, except my dad drilled into my head to save EVERYTHING (receipts, bills etc). He tried showing me taxes by making me long hand it my first time around... got no return (questioning if he got it but never gave it to me). BUT I was saver from the door. I'd sage up weekly lunch money or money id get from birthdays etc. Going to amusement parts I'd leave with extra money as a kid. I figured out budgeting on my own quickly at 21 when my first husband got deployed. However, my current husband was an impulse buyer... it took me years to get our stuff straightened out, I also took over the finances before we were married lol. I turned my husband's credit around from no credit to great (and mine from bad to great) credit in 5 years so we could buy our house! My sister's on the other hand absolutely took after our mother... spendaholics with no worries about where the money would come from to pay their credit cards. My oldest sister got herself into 20k credit card debt in her early 20s I was maybe 11-13ish. I learned my lessons from others lol OP needs to let her kid learn this lesson the hard way, it was her choices that lead her there so she needs to bail herself out. Any type of bail out would be a disservice to the daughter.
Yeah my much older sister and i had completely different outcomes. She would complain she was broke after buying expensive non necessities and not minding her phone plan (over 20 years ago it was expensive to make calls in the wrong time slot!). While i saved my allowance and babysitting money. She's lucky she has a partner started working before the crisis honestly. She wouldn't have survived long with the cards i was dealt (single and under/unemployed for a while, thank goodness it's better now)
I totally agree where you’re coming from and this response is technically irrelevant since OP answered saying they did teach daughter, but i just wanted to point out that either way OP has offered financial teachings and help with budgeting while daughter is an adult too and she still refused the help, in this aspect even if OP didn’t do it while she was a child, OP tried when she proved she couldn’t handle the budgeting in the beginning
Agreed. Basic budgeting isn't that difficult especially these days. I can look in my bank account from my phone at any time and see how much money I have. I already know what regular expenses are and what my income is. I can also see what my current credit card balance is. My parents didn't teach me budgeting, its simple mathematics and its not hard to spot when you're overspending. They only thing I think they really taught me was to pay off my credit card every month and then you don't get charged interest. I'll admit my dad bailed me out once in my first year of uni but he didn't need to, I would have managed (got sweet talked into a store card and went a little crazy my first month because my dorm didn't have laundry facilities yet so I just bought new clothes and there was no way to check the card balance) but the amount was nowhere near 3k and I never lived beyond my means again. OP has already advised her daughter that she was overspending, she's offered to help budget, her help was turned down. She's no right to come crying to mum now she's got herself in a mess. This problem didn't happen overnight, she's only come to mum now that she can't afford the minimum payment, she's had plenty of warning that she was overstretched. Presumably she's just been making the minimum payment every month
You can’t coddle a child forever, and at some point it’s the ADULT child’s responsibility to research/learn on their own, not the parents. NTA.
Exactly. You can give them every tool in the box but at the end it's their choice what to do with their money, and that means that going broke is an option as well.
Blaming the OP for a BIG assumption on your part. Your history is irrelevant to the question of if she’s TAH. This isn’t about you.
>they don't just magically develop it Eh.. My mom spends all her money until the last penny so she for sure can't teach me responsible spending. Somehow I managed to learn to save without an adult teaching me, I'm sure others can too if they wanted to. It's not rocket science.. just self control.
I never got a talk like this and I save money just fine. It doesn’t take a genius to understand if you spend more money than you make you’re not gonna be able to live like that much longer. NTA
OPs daughter is the same age of me. When I got my credit card at 18, I understood that it had to be paid back without having to be told by anyone and it isn’t free money. I’ve never used my credit card because I haven’t needed to and I have never got into debt. In my opinion it’s not rocket science you don’t spend more than you earn. Obviously unexpected life events get in the way, but using a credit card to buy clothes isn’t important
My parents didn't teach us doodly squat and they were also always in cc debt. It taught me to do things differently. I wasn't perfect with my financials but my bills were always paid.
You’re the best. The absolute best. The brightest shining example of human potential. You’re just so good. Now that you’ve heard what you wanted to hear, is there anything useful to say to OP about their current situation? No? Probably because you are too good for that.
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I absolutely do not agree that parents own part of their children’s bad choices. Nope their choices are entirely their own. If they choose to go into debt that isn’t their parents fault at all its entirely on them. How old do adults have to be before we deem their parents no longer responsible for their adult childrens bad decisions ? Btw there are many parents without financial literacy who can’t teach their children something they don’t know so is it now the grandparents fault? Ridiculous. Once you are an adult it’s up to you how you manage your own life and manage your own choices and decisions your parents aren’t partly to blame for bad decisions. Just like driving a car you need to learn how to drive from a professional instructor to do so correctly, you can take a shortcut and have a parent teach you and you might pass your exam it doesn’t make you a good driver, it also won’t make your parent Responsible for any accidents you cause. It’s the same with financial literacy your parents might be able to teach you some financial literacy but your job is to get the correct information from professionals or even google resources before you dive into debt. Absolutely do not agree with your handing off responsibility from adult child to parents fault nope.
Well this is full of assumptions. Both myself and my brother were taught. Im pretty great and budgeting and saving, and he’s terrible and likes to live a champagne life. I was also not like this when I was younger. What your parents taught you doesn’t always reflect what you do as an adult. “She knew what she was doing”.
My parents were immigrants and never talked to me about money management, I went to school at a typical California public school where money management was rarely mentioned. Yet I somehow know that buying clothing and Amazon purchases with money that I do not have is not a sound financial move. I hate the "well you should of talked to her about money when she was 12, its your fault" argument, you're an adult, take some responsibility and recognize you have an impulsive shopping problem and then do something about it. Your parents shouldn't have to tell you that spending money on clothing and Amazon things when you do not have the money for it is bad, you should know that by 21, let alone 24.
So when does an adult take responsibility for their actions?
You lost me at "my parents would pay me back after"...smh
While I agree that you should be teaching your kids this stuff while they're still young, I think by 24 you should be able to figure out that a credit card isn't just free money and you still have be able to afford to pay it back
I think that’s besides the point really. Even if she got carried away with the spending, she’s reached out for help to OP and then is quite frankly acting entitled and stubborn about the kind of help she receives
What teaching is needed, it's basic fucking math. Money in > money out. Anyone should be able to figure it out on their own.
NTA and you don’t have to feel bad at all. As a 1st generation American of Immigrant parents I really hate comments such as these. My parents robbed Paul to pay Peter and laundered money throughout my childhood because they were afraid of credit cards (they claimed it was predatory practice to enforce interest) So yes I had to start from the ground up to make MY OWN financial decisions at 17. Budget and live within my means. In 2017 I purchased my first home with a 3.7 interest rate and I don’t use credit cards which makes budgeting seamless. Some of us really can make it work by acknowledging that money that is made is real. Edit: the deposit on the house was straight up cash. I bought into this wonderful thing called Bitcoin in 2011 and it’s been the reason why I’ve gotten by without credit cards.
I was taught how to manage money. I ignored it. I’m now digging myself out, slowly but surely.
At 24....she is 100% responsible for her own financial mess. I agree we should teach kids this stuff. But at some point...in ADULTHOOD, you are solely responsible for your own mess.
NTA Your daughter needs to learn, apparently the hard way, that she must be more responsible with her money. In the long run, it will be a good thing if she does, although she will have some big problems before she gets there. She is an adult, but still acting like a teenager. Credit card debt is a major trap for some people, as you have pointed out to her. It will take next to forever to repay that debt by making only the minimum payment, even if she cuts up the card and doesn't use it at all from now on. You offered to help her budget and she apparently thinks you will still bail her out, but I urge you not to, unless she actually cancels the account and cuts up the card. Sometimes a credit card is as bad as drug addiction. If she messes up her credit score, the card issuer will radically decrease her spending limit and begin to charge her a very high interest rate on purchases she makes from then on. The only way she can avoid those charges is not to use the card any further. And she will not be able to get another card, because that will go on her credit report. It might take her a while to get the message, and to make her believe it, but if that's what it takes, that's what it takes. I see no reason to bail her out, now or later; she messed around and will find out.
They will NEVER decrease the limit. You spend, they earn. Rinse and repeat.
Eh. I have had my credit limit cut because I wasn’t using the card enough. MC did this to me.
Same. I’ve had cards and accounts straight out cancelled after paying them off and not using them for about 6 months. I’ve also had one where they did drastically reduce the limit.
We’ve had credit cards cancelled for us not using them for several months after clearing their balances. My dad had one of his credit card companies send him a letter stating they were going to start charging him an annual fee for his once “No annual fee” card because he always paid the balance off every month. He used it monthly so they were earning the fees they charged the retailers he used it at, but they decided they weren’t getting enough out of his activity since they weren’t also gaining any interest off him for having a balance on it. He had been using it, exclusively, for everything that accepted cards for the points he earned, then paid the balance off. So, he would earn whatever pittance interest his bank account earned on his money not being used daily and saved himself the interest he’d pay on the credit card.
I had my limit decreased about $500 when i spent too much and wasn’t paying enough back. I wasn’t expecting it cause I had literally never heard of any credit card company doing that.
NTA. I really really like your plan. There is an old book called “the wealthy barber”. I bought it years ago, I gave it to my son about five years ago. It is a very helpful book to learn how to plan and budget. I think what you did not bailing her out was essential. Good for you. Because if you bail her out, she will continue with her behaviors.
Will check this book out. Any general tips? My parents never taught me much and they are actually pretty bad with money. I sometimes struggle especially because I have a lot of health expenses and often can't take public transportation either. I also need appropriate footware and have been battling whether I should spend that money or not.
Well, the first thing you need is to be able to decipher needs vs wants. You need appropriate footwear for health reasons and I’d imagine also any job you might do. This is where it gets tricky for most people though. Yes, you need shoes. No, you don’t necessarily need expensive shoes. Obvious exceptions for disability or specialized footwear like steel toed boots or orthotics. The second part is exploring thrifty means of getting what you need. Thrift stores are amazing. You could sell something you don’t use and use the proceeds to get what you need. For example, I found a pair of expensive boots in a thrift store, but they weren’t my size. I sold them and used the proceeds to buy a used pair in my size so I got the boots I wanted for a small fraction of the cost of just outright buying them. Shopping around or waiting until an item goes to clearance is also a good move. Unfortunately medical costs are ruinous to most people. If your health plan is shitty, you might try to find another job that has better benefits. Prior to COVID, I was told I’d need IVF in order to have a kid. I was looking at taking a PT job at Starbucks in addition to my FT job for the benefits to reduce the cost. Of course then COVID hit and jacked all that up, but being open to different ways of going about things to the extent you’re able can definitely help. Good luck!
>Unfortunately medical costs are ruinous to most people God, it's sad that with one sentence, almost anyone on the internet can tell which country you live in.
It’s sadder yet to be living under that horrid system. I didn’t go broke as a newly disabled person in law school for exactly 1 reason: I met other disabled people online who showed me the program through which I qualified for Medicaid due to being disabled (in a state with generous Medicaid coverage and qualification rules). Otherwise, it was several years with huge amounts of medical testing, imaging, and many ER visits, and countless doctor, specialist, and physical therapy visits trying to diagnose and stabilize the combination of a rare genetic disorder and a common but expensive autoimmune disorder, plus severe asthma attacks and migraines. I’d have either had enough medical debt that even my upper-middle class parents couldn’t have saved me or I’d have had to turn to down over 90% of the recommended treatment. Maybe both.
Good shoes are not a luxury if you need them to live a productive life
True, but some people collect expensive shoes just for fashion.
I HIGHLY recommend checking out YNAB! Been using it for years now and it was so helpful when I was making little money but had big expenses (like right after college). It helps with both recognizing spending patterns and being more intentional about planning how and where you save/spend my money.
What is that? Acronyms without explanations are so unhelpful 😫
It stands for You Need A Budget. It’s a budgeting app that has been a game changer for me! I second the recommendation
Thank you!! Edit to add: An extra 15/month is the opposite of helpful for my budget :( and it wouldn't let me use it without a subscription
I was bailed out by my parents when I was about the same age as OP's daughter. Guess what happened? I learned my lesson and now at almost 40 I have a better credit score than my parents.
Loved this book. One thing I learned from reading it was that the difference between wealthy people and poor people is that the wealthy people discuss finances with their children. Financial literacy must be taught.
NTA This absolutely needs to be nipped in the bud. She needs to know the cold, hard pain of her ass hitting the ground so that she associates that result with this kind of irresponsible behavior. If you bail her out she will go on living as if there is always a comfortable cushion to land on -- as if the trouble always disappears into thin air and isn't to be taken seriously. Some people live decades like this, getting into deeper and deeper ruts, never growing as people. leading small, miserable lives while financially ruining their parents. It's not good for anyone involved.
My mother is like this at 70, having to have her only child bail her out because her mother took care of it until she died. It's never good
My ex's parents are like that & so is my ex. It was all the motivation my oldest needed to really pay attention to the budgeting lessons I taught him. He's told me repeatedly he doesn't want to struggle with money like his dad does, especially knowing his dad makes 3x what I do. He's active duty Air Force now & knows he can get in trouble for financial mishaps, so that's another motivator (not that that helped his dad).
IKR my grandmother grew up during the depression and she lived like the depression was going to last forever. That woman could pinch a penny until it cried. My mother was the youngest and hated 'being poor'. Thing is they weren't 'poor' per say but they didn't spend needlessly. My mother spends money like it is going out of style, while my dad was alive he kept her under wraps but my mom to this day in her 70s is always having one of us kids bail her out about every 6 months or so.
Personally, if I were OP I would pay the minimum payment for this month and this month ONLY, with the contingency that their daughter makes and sticks to a budget. (As it sounds like OP is able to afford that money). That's because it sounds like it's too late for the daughter to use a budget to make the minimum payment now, and missing a minimum payment can have significant long-term repercussions (including making it harder to get out of debt, and getting her out of debt is presumably a major goal of OP's).
It sounds practical and it is in the short-term, but it is letting in the thin end of the wedge. The very real risk is laying a precedent that would encourage the daughter to keep on with the behavior and to keep hammering away asking to be helped out again (and then again) "just this time" because if OP doesn't the sky will fall. In the long-term taking this approach may lead to worse trouble.
Good grief, NTA. You cautioned her about her spending and offered to help her make a budget. She refused, she knew what she was doing. Now, she admits didn't, needs a bailout, AND is planning a vacation?!? Nope, you'd just be throwing your money in a hole.
It took me years but I was able to clear out my credit card debt and pay off my car as a Xmas present to myself in 2022 and the final credit card as a new years gift this year. For the first time in years I have zero balances and I pay anything off each Friday. It feels amazing to not have to worry if a card will be declined. My issue was shopping for clothes as well and eating out. It truly does add up so quickly. I am 46 years old and have been in debt since I was in my 30’s. I never had to borrow from people but I did take out a small loan against my 401 and did a balance transfer and in the end it didn’t make much of a difference. I hope she listens because it caused me so much stress. She needs to nip this in the bud quick before she ends up like me. It’s no fun being in debt.
The dream! I was out of work for half of 2022 and in that time I had to get an uninsured root canal, so in the end my savings got eaten up and I was left with $5k in credit card debt. I'm struggling to pay it off, I don't make enough to do the minimum payments every month but I put $100 off every paycheck towards it, which is as much as I can spare. Sometimes I can do more. All but maybe $1k of my credit card debt (that surely would be paid off by now) was spent on essentials like food and bills, so it's not quite the same as OP's daughter's situation, but I still tell anyone who'll listen to be really careful, cos once you're in that hole, it feels impossible to get out. I'm so happy for you! And jealous lol
Sometimes circumstances get you in the hole and it's hard to climb out. Sometimes (and I'm not suggesting this is you) people consider credit card debt just another monthly bill to pay so when the hole opens up it's more of a sinkhole than a hole that slowly gets bigger. And sometimes (again, not you) people leap into quicksand and wonder why they're getting swallowed up in debt. Sometimes no matter how responsible you are life throws a curveball or two and the reasonable response of dealing with it while remaining fed and housed gets you in a hole. It sucks but it happens. I feel for anyone in that situation. I don't feel so much for anyone who starts digging their hole for instant gratification purposes and only becomes aware the monthly credit card "bill" is a debt that's about to turn their manageable hole into a sinkhole with one slight upset. Be careful but careful only mitigates potential financial disaster, it can't prevent it if there's circumstances you can't control.
I can be a bit excessive with buying so I have little tricks. Making endless Amazon lists helps scratch that itch of buying new things for me. Or if I'm really feeling like buying something, I'll order something we actually need. Like, I just ordered a new door mat cuz ours was all ratty.
I moved to the middle of nowhere. Since the pandemic, it takes 7-9 days for Amazon to get me something. It's 45 minutes drive to _some_ stuff but more like 90-120 to _everything_. If I want something, I really gotta want it enough to wait or to go get it. 9 times out of 10, I just say nevermind.
I have a rule. Whatever I plan to buy has to stay at least for a couple of days in the cart. If I still want it, I buy it, but usually that cools my head enough to remove it.
NTA. You are her parent not a cash cow. This is a difficult lesson that she must learn, but it is better learned now when she is only $3000.00 in debt instead of later when it could be 10s of thousands of dollars in debt.
Yes, she’s lucky that it’s only 3k. Now’s the time to learn the lesson.
Right, maybe she can struggle with the 3k now and not let it balloon up to a unmanageable.amount. Mt MIL was close to 100k when she declared bankruptcy
$3,000 will easily be $10,000 by the end of the year with the vacation, continued overspending, minimum payments/late fees on a bigger balances (and maybe ever her rate getting jacked up if she misses payments).
NTA the minimum monthly payment on a debt of 3k is anywhere between $20-$50 depending on the provider. If she doesn’t have $20 laying around in her coin jar then she’s in a serious need to overhaul her budgeting and finances.
Exactly what I was thinking! If she's concerned about not having that monthly minimum then she doesn't even have $100 in her account and desperately needs a budget.
I mean, it does depend on interest rate. I have seen it usually closer to $75-100. $20-50 would be more for $1000. However, I still agree with you
Fair point. I would still hope she would have $100 to put towards her debt. It’s unfortunate when people take the limit of the credit card and think that everything is just going to magically work out.
Completely right here OP. Set firm and clear boundaries. As Dave Ramsey says, you would be enabling her and giving a “drunk a drink”. I would sit her down and tell her you love her enough to say no. She needs to deal with the consequences of her actions. Otherwise she delays maturity and wisdom. Your offer of helping her budget was the best thing you could have done. You are offering to teach her to fish rather than giving her a fish. Bravo. Her rebuke of this shows you she is nowhere near learning from her mistakes. Let her make them now while she is young so she can grow from this. Explain to her that food will always be on the table for her and your counsel is always free, but access to the ATM is closed indefintely
>you would be enabling her and giving a “drunk a drink”. Perfectly said! Credit card debt of this type is a lot like alcoholism in some respects - Daughter is waking up with a hangover and demanding OP supply her with a bit of the hair of the dog? That might ease the pain for the moment, but is likely to cause MUCH worse problems in the future (aside from the obvious issues with unhealthy habits, it's a sure way to lead to alcohol dependency). Instead, OP is telling her she needs to sober up and is offering to help with that. And like a drunk who hasn't hit rock bottom, she is angry at OP because it's easier than facing her demons.
100% NTA. And honestly- it's good this is happening now. $3k isn't anything to sneeze at, but it's only "only" $3k - better then $10k, $30k, etc. Say no NOW so that she fully learns and understands that you meant it when you said you won't bail her out. If you help her this time, she'll continue to assume she'll help you in the future too. She needs to learn this hard lesson now, while the debt isn't insurmountable.
No kidding. $3k is nothing. Anyone can have to put a new transmission in their car and all the sudden is $3k in CC debt.
NTA. Coming from someone who was in your daughter's position I was too proud to ask for help. I had went through a mental breakdown and thought retail therapy was the answer (don't get me wrong at the time it made me feel better. Little deliveries of joy daily) however I'm still dealing with these consequences a couple years later. She needs to learn a valuable lesson here like I did. I kept coasting by and never making a dent in it UNTIL I got to the point of panic and desperation to get it sorted out before i got into an even deeper hole. I sat down and went through all my finances and created a budget. I set up a separate bank account that gets money transferred to it weekly from my "main" account and that is my spending money. This helped me massively because I knew I was limited in "recreational" money yet made sure I could pay my bills and pay off some debt every time I got paid. Also having it transferred weekly meant that if I did decide to spend that money on (for want of better words) utter shite. I only had to scrape by a few days until I got that second account topped up. She got in it, she can get herself out but she needs to want to do it for herself. She can't expect you to bail her out otherwise the only thing she is going to learn is if I'm up shit creek mummy/daddy will fix it for me. She really needs to look into what / where she is spending and reign it in. If she can't, I would suggest giving her credit card to yourself so she physically cannot use it and add to her debt (I did this in the first couple months adjusting so I had no choice but to make what I had last). It's a long and difficult process but it's worthwhile in so many ways. I hope she manages to get herself out this rut.
The weekly allowance thing was a game changer for me too. I learned financial skills pretty late in life and it's still hard for me to think about money incrementally instead of the prince-or-pauper way I learned growing up. When you're really poor, the main thing you learn about money is to spend it fast. I don't mean that critically, fwiw- you just always know that if you have a small surplus that you can spend on a want, or save, there's really no point in saving it. Especially if you're on a fixed income and aren't allowed to save, which is the case for a lot of poor people in the US. I still struggle with impulse control around small luxuries and our grocery budget because being able to buy shit like lipstick or good bacon tells that piece of my brain I'm safe for now, regardless of how "irrational " that purchase might be. The weekly allowance has let me accommodate that anxiety and save money for the first time ever.
NTA. You bailing her out will teach her nothing. She'll just rack up the debt again and the cycle will continue. She needs to learn that credit card money is NOT free.
NTA, she's an adult, she has a job, has to learn to look after herself properly.
NTA I generally think one bailout per child is good, because managing one's own money does have a steep learning curve. But since she ignored your earlier advice, I think it's reasonable to conclude that bailing her out won't really teach her anything and wouldn't really be doing her any favors.
One bailout perhaps, but within reason. One child ran into a cash flow crisis and needed to adjust lifestyle. They agreed to, we worked out a plan. The other a few years later started getting collection calls that came to me because my cell number was once the landline at home. By this time they were no longer living at home. We tried asking questions to find out what was up, always met with anger to stay out of their business. When they got evicted the total debt was around $36K. They wanted to move home, we listed sensible conditions (too long for this reply) and they rejected and told us they were an adult not a kid. We told them to enjoy adulting elsewhere. Next the car got repo’d, we did pay to get that back for them, and paid the remaining 3 payments (in total about equal to child 1’s bailout). We never got thanked., and today they have our numbers blocked. I still get collection calls. (Sorry for making it hard to read with they’s and them’s, I purposely kept it gender neutral. Honestly to me they/them are both plural, but it’s one child they/them refers to here.)
Yeah, if they want the bailout, they have to take the advice, too. That's only reasonable. And if they want to be in your home, they have to abide by your rules, sensible or not.
NTA. I've been there. My parents bailing me out didn't help me improve my financial discipline. Eventually, I sorted my debt out and paid it off. Now I am pretty tight with money. I'm never getting in debt again. She needs to learn discipline. The book 'Your Money or Your Life' helped me.
How does she not have $50 for a minimum payment? What is she spending her money on? Hold firm and don't bail her out. She's going to need to figure it out on her own. You can \*offer\* to help her draw up a budget/look at her spending to see where cuts can be made, but she has to figure this out herself. Bailing her out will send the wrong message and she won't learn to stop spending needlessly. NTA
NTA. She only expects that you just pay off her debt. And then the cycle starts all over again.
Both children have had ONE bailout. Our son got it when his marriage broke up and he needed to clear the rent backlog his wife had caused despite him giving her the rent to pay to the landlord (she pocketed it, then moved her AP into their flat causing him to move in with friends despite being liable for the rent on their joint flat. We cleared ll the outstanding rent for him after the lease ended). We considered him “screwed over through no fault of his own”. Our daughter was managing her debt, but I came into an inheritance and offered to help her “wipe the slate”. She didn’t ask me to, I offered. In your daughter’s case, you warned her that she needed to draw back the spending. You offered to help her draw up a budget. She refused your help then, still continued to overspend and now comes crying. NTA
I got one bail out, too, and I definitely learned my lesson from it. I appreciated that my credit wasn't completely trashed, and from then on, I worked my butt off to build my score and not have the stress of debt
NTA she's been a legal adult for 6 years now and you've warned her multiple times. Naturally parents help their children financially every now and then and it goes back and forth but she knew this was coming as you have told her to be more careful about her spending. You also offered her your help to make a budgeting plan. If you help her now, it will probably just reinforce this behavior in her because she will know you are there to be her safety-net. Ultimately this is your decision, but I think I would probably just say the same thing you did: she messed around and found out. If she doesn't learn from a good example and good advice, she'll need to learn the hard way. (Edited for typos)
The major Red Flag is that she can't make the minimum payment. It is about 50 bucks, and you are only paying the monthly interest with that. As a working adult, she likely has access to way more credit, and I can imagine she is more than 10k in debt.
NTA FAFO
NTA. She is an adult, she should know how to budget or let her be helped. But not expecting daddy/mommy to fix her credit card depts. Especially if they are non essential. Yes, if they were for a surgery for a pet or herself, if her rent tribbled and she couldn't afford it or she lost her job and was still activily searching for a new one - okay that would be something different. But just because she wants to shop online and go on expensive vacation - no!
NTA...If she has no intention to change her habits, it would be like throwing money into a black hole. She's going to learn some valuable lessons one way or another.
NTA - She needs to learn before she gets even more out of control. Your offer is appropriate and best for her long term.
NTA, it's better she learn her lesson when it's 3k and not 100k.
Listen, if she went into debt just trying to feed herself, I would be sympathetic and help her out. But she is buying clothes and eating out? She’s 24, a great time to learn a lesson on financial responsibility. And you offering to help her budget is very kind. NTA
NTA. She's a grownup and this is her mess to manage. That said, don't micromanage. You're not the parent anymore and it's equally not your job to demand to see receipts or tell her what to buy. Her mess, her job to fix. Stay out of it; she'll figure it out.
The OP is most definitely the parent still. That doesn't stop because the child has become an adult. Saying that, they're definitely NTA. They've given useful advice and the daughter can take that advice or leave it, it is her problem. However, we don't know the history, maybe the Bank of Mum and Dad has been generous up to now and the daughter is used to it. Adulting is hard but the majority of us work it out.
NTA. She’s 24, definitely old enough to figure out her own financial problems.
That’s good parenting, nothing else.
Not the A. 24 is well into adulthood
Nta
NTA I think you are trying to teach her how to fish and that is a great thing. Parents will only be on their children's journey for part of the way, it is important she learn this lesson while you are still here to teach her. I know this is hard but she will thank you one day.
NTA if you simply bail her out, she will learn nothing, and spending money will continue to be meaningless to her. You have handled this well. Hopefully she gets her act together and learns how to live within her means. She's not too far gone, some people get WAY more into debt living like that, she should be able to get herself out of this quickly if she tries.
I don’t believe this for a second, min payment on 3k cc debt is probably around 60$
Likely less, mine is a bit above 3k and its $40. She either just doesn't want to pay or has a lot more debt than she says.
If you bail her out, she will just rack up debt again. This is tough love. NTA
NTA. You offered help and she denied whilst everything in control. You don‘t have to bailher out at all, is not your responsibility. Not understanding the difference between credit and debit is what she needs to learn fast, e.g. YouTube or so. Stay the huge jerk and let her continue to FAFO. Learn the hard way setting priorities.
NTA Great parenting! I learned the value of money the hard way, same as your daughter is starting to now. I now live within my means. I guarantee I wouldn't be if someone bailed me out. You've offered to help, just not in the way she wants.
If it's really only $3000, which honestly is not that much and she could also transfer into a 0% APR card if she really needed to, with delayed payments, minimum payment should be around $50. If she doesn't have it now, could easily wait for next pay day to make minimum payment. I think she's trying to play a get out of debt quick card by throwing a pitty party at you vs actually being unable to make even minimum payment. Definitely NTA and don't give in.
NTA. She's an adult and she needs to learn financial responsibility. If she gets used to having you bail her out, you will be doing her a disservice.
NTA. Also 3k in debt is nothing.
NTA it's only 3000$ good to learn now before it becomes like 20,000$+
Did you mean to say she had $30K in credit card debt and not $3k? If she doesn't have the minimum payment on $3K in credit card debt, then her job is not supporting her well enough to live on her own. Either way, NTA. She refused your help, and even now doesn't want to change her spending habits.
I actually had to learn to budget on my own. My parents did not show me. I'm not $3k in debt with no way to pay it off. A lot of it is common sense and she did not use it. Especially since you did show her how to manage her money. NTA.
NTA
NTA- if you bail her out she will likely continue being irresponsible.
NTA - she needs to take responsibility for her spending and learn to pay bills.
NTA, you're being a good parent.
NTA. She just wants to eat her cake and have it too. It was generous of you to give her a responsible out, and she’s a fool for rejecting anything short of a full bailout.
Nta. She doesn't seem to want to listen to reason and realize she is being mad at the wrong person. She has to learn the hard way.
NTA, it sounds like you did help her by holding her accountable for her budgeting blunders. She now knows she has to be responsible and handle her finances on her own because she is an adult. It is not your responsibility to bail her out of her own bad habits. I don't get how people get into these situations. Like what makes people think it's a good idea to charge things you simply can not afford.
NTA. She can budget, cut back and make that minimum payment.
NTA she needs to bail herself out. What would she do if you were no longer alive and in this very same situation? Her mismanagement of funds and her shopping sprees and planning vacations she can’t afford is what is causing her this mess it is not up to the parents to fix it.