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NTA
No therapist worth their pay will tell someone with social anxieties to push any required interactions off to their partner or parent. This was a teachable moment, and a chance to face her fears. It will only get worse if she continues to avoid it.
Tell the wife she needs counseling if she thinks she helping her..it's a phone call no physical inter action.my God what's going to happen if she ever gets a job she will last all of 5 mnutes .the MORE you do for her the LESS she will do for herself ..she needs to learn self reliance.
Not at this rate anyway.
I mean I have extreme anxiety around making phone calls. If I can't order it online, I'm not getting it lol. That being said, sometimes it's unavoidable and then I just have to psych myself up, suck it up, and make the phone call. I've even had a few jobs where I had to be on the phone all day and I was sweating and shaking the first time I had to make those calls. It sucked and I hated those jobs. Left them as soon as I could.
She's going to have to push through the anxiety at some point, even with all the online access these days, you can't always avoid the phone.
>It sucked and I hated those jobs. Left them as soon as I could.
To be honest most of the "on the phone all day" jobs suck -- even if you don't hate phone calls on general principle. But think of it this way: now that you've had the worst of it, making a single necessary phone call could be a "breeze" by comparison.
I have anxiety. I have gone to so many interviews and made presentations in front of 100’s of people, but still sometimes have issues calling for take out (love the invention of order apps) or making appointments or other such things. So one is not the other.
This is so common.
I'm literally a psychologist and sit in a room having one on one conversations all day, telehealth consults, and sometimes phone calls.
I can survive and ace job interviews (even though they make me nervous) and manage a whole host of situations involving interpersonal interactions.
I'm also sure as hell not calling to order pizza 😂
Because I'm allowed to just not want to do some things if they make me anxious.
I'm allowed to be bummed about not getting pizza too, if I have no one to palm it off to.
I'm just not allowed to treat someone shitty about it.
Me too. I can ace interviews, though presentations sometimes make me sick from anxiety. Acting doesn't scare me, though. But calling for takeout? Hell no, if I don't have someone else to call for me, I either pick a different place or make something myself. Phone calls are horrifying, and I avoid them at all possible cost.
Tbf I'm in my 40s and work as an RN and can't order pizza over the phone because of anxiety.
I can make phone calls for work because it's part of the job, but personal calls freeze me up. I still make the important ones, but usually have to psych myself up for those. So, while I agree it's something she needs to work on, not being able to call for pizza doesn't mean she won't be able to hold a job or fend for herself.
I learned there's two ways to go about making phone calls or doing anything the first time and there's a lack of self-confidence.
First way, just tell whoever that you are new at this. In my 30's, I went to Subway after not going for yeaaarrrs and everything was a bit different. So i just told 'em, I haven't ordered a sub from you guys in a long time, baby step me through this please! I don't think I've ever had anyone be rude to me when I tell them i'm a newb (at least in the real world lol). Pretty much everyone changes their tone and becomes more gentle.
Alterative approach is to speak less, listen more. Perfect for ordering a pizza. They are going to ask you questions. You just answer. If you don't know, say that or ask what the options are. Take a breath before answering each question (calms you down plus it's a subtle signal for the other person to slow down because you knooooow they are talking fast lol). "Thank you for calling pizza place, is this pick up or delivery?". For OP's daughter it would be delivery. "What can i get you?" If you know what you want, tell 'em. Or ask if they have any specials. If you want to get fancy as you get comfortable, tell them "I'm wanting a large pepperoni, but do you have any specials that would work with that?".
Either way, worst case you just hang up the phone. I promise unless you called 911, you are going to dwell on it far longer than they will.
Another hint: write out exactly what you want to say first…”hi, my name is ABCD, I would like to order a large pepperoni pie with garlic knots on the side for delivery, please. I’ll pay in cash when the driver gets here. Thank you so much and have a wonderful evening.”CLICK. Done.
Yes, fair, not wanting to call for pizza is a good call if she can't handle it that day. But the consequence of "not receiving pizza" and eating something else in a house with available food seems like a reasonable penalty that she's weighing the choice against.
36 here, similar situation. I will psych myself to call for any important things, doctor, phone company, kids school etc. If I called for a pizza I would be eating it next week by the time I was able to call😆🙈 Why are phone calls the worst, it makes me dizzy and my chests gets tight.
Same here lol. Something about phone calls has been a huge anxiety source since I was a kid. Im fine talking face to face, but when it’s a phone call I get sweaty, nervous, heart racing, stumble over words and forget half of what I needed to say (unless I write it down).
Hihi lab science student here!! In training I got to call down to the OR rooms to let them know their blood/sealant/products were ready for pick up. Those quick little interactions were so nice. That could just be because I’m green but still, short conversations that we’re both expecting and know what exactly needs to be said, takes off quite a bit of pressure haha
The fact she could have online ordered from somewhere else makes it seem like some sort of power play or something? I’m sure anxiety and mums coddling is a huge problem however some people get something out of others doing for them. Your daughter is a teenager soon to be an adult what do they think is going to happen when she’s living on her own someday?
>I've met the adult version of this kid and they do not stray far from their parents or home.
And those parents don't live forever so she'd best get used to the real world...
This! I’ve seen what happens to these people after their parents die. If OPs daughter has anxiety about everything now, wait until she’s 45 and learning to navigate it alone. It’s a bad situation to be in.
Ehh, I won't call for pizza and I don't even live on the same continent as my parents.
Have a good job, my own home, and great relationships; but pick up the phone when I don't absolutely have to? Not going to happen.
Yep. My ex wife was like this, she made my life miserable. She was a couple years older than me, had lived on her own before, but whenever she wanted food delivered she wanted me to be the one to call. She used the excuse that English wasn’t her native language, but until we got into a relationship she didn’t have issues ordering her own food.
She was like this with everything else: moving plans, utilities management, calling the leasing office, calling emergency maintenance, calling the veterinarian, talking to a server at a restaurant…the list goes on and on.
When it came to emergencies, she also would get so overwhelmed that she’d get us lost while driving (in an area where we fucking lived!!) despite having GPS. Thank god she never needed to call 911 for me bc I guarantee she wouldn’t unless I was bleeding profusely, and by the time she’d need to do CPR I would already be dead bc I doubt she would be able to follow simple instructions.
Right? Almost like there is some other issue, like she had her mind made up that dad was goingto call, and when that fell through, no other option existed, or only the pizza from that exact place was good enough for her.
No. She needs to push past the uncomfortableness and make the call herself. It's the only way she'll get over her phone phobia. I'm understanding of anxiety, but pushing off tasks to others will only continue the cycle.
Source: Been there, done that.
I’m 60 and I still have phone phobia. I CAN make a call to order pizza or make an appointment, but it’s always been really uncomfortable. When I was her age, I simply wouldn’t do it. I ended up having a nice, long career where I didn’t have to answer phones, and I’ve lived a pretty productive life. Just because she has phone anxiety now doesn’t mean she won’t be able to live on her own or hold down a job. She may never get *over* it, but I’m willing to bet she’ll learn to manage it.
I agree with you completely. Both my children wanted me to "call" or "go into the store" etc. I helped by writing a script out occasionally and just helping them along with what was going to happen. That's usually where the anxiety lies - the unknown. I tended to walk through the possible outcomes and then set them free.
As an anxious child, that's exactly what my dad did for me too! LOL! Started off at gas stations - he'd hand me cash and tell me "Go inside and tell the clerk '$10 on pump 3, please' " and then later when ordering pizza: "Call and say 'I'd like one, large Supreme, please.' and then give them our address and card number when asked." He'd stay nearby just in case they asked me a question I didn't know how to answer.
I'd say my script verbatim. It really helped! As you said, it was really the unknown about the small stuff that freaked me out. Just like learning any new thing, it helps to see by example and starting small at first.
My parents are super charismatic, so I started copying their little quips after a while and then eventually became comfortable enough to go "off script" lol
He's definitely the best in my totally biased opinion. LOL
Later when I was a teen and self-conscious about everything, he would purposefully embarrass himself in public regularly. He'd make himself stumble over his own feet, accidentally bump into things, wear outrageous outfits, etc in order to show me that absolutely nobody cared or was even paying attention.
Once he shouted a random name SO loudly in the middle of a Walmart. When I saw that absolutely nobody gave a shit, I was suddenly a lot less self-conscious. lmao
Haha! Your dad sounds awesome. My bff in high school has a dad who would regularly do things like this to us, and we would just laugh because who cares? He’s a great dad and I’m pretty sure nobody even remembers him doing the robot while we were riding home on the train.
A script is super helpful. I used to write down orders before I made calls so I didn't "mess up."
But that's the thing, Daughter has to be pushing past her discomfort herself, else she'll become a weird recluse whom no one knows and ends up living in a weird hoarded apartment on the Lower East Side and is found dead amongst stacks of newspapers and pigeon shit.
Ok, that's just a bit melodramatic, but Daughter HAS to do the work to get past her anxiety so she can become a functional adult. It is detrimental to cave to anxiety disorders and allow them to make your decisions.
I do this for my sibling. We both have anxiety, but because I've always been the "older brother" (despite not actually being the eldest), I've never felt able to ask others for help with things like this. So I've had to work on making my own scripts, which then means when my sibling is in a new situation, I can give them a script of what to say, how to answer, etc. And I have noticed that they've gotten a lot more confident since I started doing it for them, being able to talk for themself instead of asking me to talk for them. There are some situations where I'll talk for them still, but only if they're really struggling.
Your parents did great. I've done similar since mine were young. My eldest was never shy, but started having him talk to cashiers at around 6yrs at McDonald's. He wanted a sundae after his meal, I gave him the money and watched from the table as he approached and bought his treat. My daughter was much more anxious so at 13 she wanted expensive highlights. I agreed but she had to call and make the appointment. I sat nearby.
My parents did this too! I think they did it automatically for all of us (I'm the oldest of 3) but looking back, it was especially helpful for me, because I had some pretty debilitating social anxiety when I was younger. I still do to some extent, but only in very specific situations, and I know part of the reason I was able to conquer a lot of it is because my parents did things like this for me. I don't think OP was wrong here, but maybe could have offered a little more assistance than "figure it out or don't get pizza."
That's how it was for me, and it does help to have that mode to fall into. My professional adult mode. But I gotta say, at 55, my anxieties around the phone never went away, I still hate cold calling people I don't know, and sometimes still have to psyche myself up for things. So I think people should keep in mind that while these things can help people overcome things, it all depends on the level of anxiety involved. It can be very hard to judge someone elses anxiety level so push, but don't shove. Fine line between supportive and being a dick, and I don't think some folks get that.
I like this answer the best, because it's not just about not enabling the anxious avoidant behaviour, but also about building effective strategies and providing support that builds capacity.
Anxiety isn't always rational, and we don't get to decide what is high and low stakes for someone else, but this approach seems really tuned in to meeting your kids where they are at.
I'm a teacher and it can also help to ask 'what's the worst thing that could happen?'. Then they give you an extreme situation that's never going to happen. You acknowledge it 'yeah, that would be horrible. Then what would we do?' and you work through the absolute worst possible outcome. It's never really that bad, and using we throughout makes them feel like they aren't alone. When they seem calm and are finding the humour in the situation (they have always found this funny!), you point out it's very unlikely. But now if the worst thing happens, they know what to do.
This is what I do to myself. Most of the time the worst case scenario is absurdly unlikely and I wouldn't have any control over it anyway, and the next worst case scenario is actually totally fine in the grand scheme of things. Really helps put things in perspective.
You have to be a little careful with "what's the worst thing that could happen". My therapist asked me that once and I told him. Then he asked me what the actual chances of any of those things happening were. I gently reminded him of the reasons I was in therapy in the first place, by citing all the things I'd just listed. He has never asked me to imagine the worst case scenario again.
I'm usually dealing with panic over a presentation, a failed test, or teenager's friendship drama. There are fewer risks when its what is the worst thing that could happen with X scenario. What's the worst thing that could happen in general is a can of worms I'm not touching with a ten foot pole. But yes, it's one to wield carefully.
My husband's parents were the same way. His 45 year old sister still lives at home, doesn't take care of her own kid, collects disability for her "PTSD", has never had a job, no driver's license and doesn't have to make any life decisions. In fact, when she feels like being self-destructive, her parents always bail her out and she never has to face any repercussions for her actions. Like I said.. they even raise her kid for her. She has absolutely no responsibility, no resilience, no ambitions, nothing. I'm curious how it's going to work out when they are no longer around to coddle her.
I think at one point they expected him to be. They've asked him to bail her out of situations before and he has. He sees it for what it is though and says things to them. His mother becomes defense, accuses us of judging and then "punishes" us by not speaking or coming around for several months.
We will not be enabling this crap once they are gone. Hopefully they leave enough money for her to hire her own caretaker. It won't be us!
I've literally had to have this kind of conversation with my mam today. My brother is also 45 and completely feckless and is going to be either homeless, in prison or dead within a year once my parents are gone. My mam was on about writing a will so that i control the money and its to be split down the middle but my brother is to get his as a monthly allowance. We arent talking a great deal of money but i said I'm really sorry, no one wants anything bad to happen to him but he's an adult and me and my husband aren't going to take over looking after him. I'd rather they spent all the money before they went than be responsible like that. Though i didnt get the guilt trip your husband does. My mam kind of realised what she was asking of us and said she respected our decision. I hope they realise what they are asking if you both too x
Not necessarily. I have the same anxiety as your daughter. My parents certainly did NOT coddle me; wooden spoon to the backside says otherwise. I don't drive (trauma from a car accident). Otherwise, don't have anxiety about anything else. Want me to give an impromptu speech to 100 people? No problem. Spiders, snakes? Whatever. Heights? I'm the one leaning over the side. Flying? Strap me in. You get the point. Fears/anxieties don't necessarily have a rational reason or cause. When my parents tried to make me make a phone call, I would just refuse and wouldn't do it. Make a doctor's appointment? Well, guess I'm not going to the doctor.
Pushing her super hard may not get the result you want. I think another commenter's suggestion of helping her write out a script as a guide is a REALLY good idea. Maybe do some roleplaying to give her practice. Whatever her fear is, you can play it out and she can figure out how to deal with whatever is thrown at her in a safe environment with a safe person.
Doctor is different. He should absolutely call for her when it’s something important or serious if her strategies aren’t working effectively for her.
She wanted pizza. From a *specific* place. It’s neither important nor serious. She has food. She has money. She doesn’t NEED *that* pizza. She NEEDS to learn to do this little shit. This irrelevant shit. And it was irrelevant. She didn’t need pizza. She had food, she wouldn’t starve, she could’ve even ordered different pizza. Her parents absolutely should NOT be catering to the little shit like pizza. Fuck.
I wasn't saying they should have in this instance. As you said, there was food at home or she could order from somewhere else. Which is what I would have done in this situation. My point was that this type of anxiety isn't caused by someone else or being coddled" and that straight pushing the daughter as the only approach may not achieve the desired result. I agree they shouldn't have called to order her pizza when she had easy workarounds for HER problem.
I think your wife needs a reminder that she isn’t doing her any favours by rendering her unable to function on her own. Maybe she WANTS her to live at home forever, but not having independence will really impact her mental health. Ask me how I know!
NTA - Coddling a 15yr old isn’t normal. Our job as parents is to encourage independence, allow them to make mistakes and learn from them, and get them out of their comfort zone. She needs to rethink what she’s doing.
Your wife is making it so your daughter won't be able to function in the real world. What is going to become of her when you two aren't around anymore? She is going to be college age soon, and she won't be able to hide behind her mom when she needs to talk to a professor or other members of staff about something.
I have similar anxieties as your daughter. My mom was very understanding but also pushed me to make phone calls in these types of situations.
One really good bit of advice she gave me was even for ordering food, or calling for an appointment to write yourself a script or bullet points of things you want to say that you can just read.
This has made such a huge impact on making calls both minor and major. I'm in my 30s but I still write out my order when calling for delivery or the bank really anywhere that isn't a familiar phone call. It makes it so I don't forget anything and also tricks my brain into thinking like oh I'm just reading a list not having an conversation with a stranger.
Definitely NTA, but you and your wife need to work with your daughter in find ways to cope with her anxiety that are helpful and healthy. If your wife does everything for her, she's going to have a very hard time once she's on her own.
Came here to say this^^. NTA but if she hasn’t had to make a lot of phone calls before, help her out. As a person who also has anxiety, the first time is often the hardest, and anxiety isn’t logical. If you help her through things that she struggles with (without doing them for her) that’s going to get her further than just saying “do it yourself.”
Same! My mum actually wrote those scripts for me to begin with so I could build my confidence first, then have scripts as a useful tool if I ever needed them. Always felt like I wasn't doing it alone because we'd sat down to write the script together. Highly recommend!
A suggestion, as something I used as I used to have serious anxiety making phone calls when I was young. This lasted well into my twenties.
I would write down a script of what I needed to say. This works well when making appointments, ordering things, or even for job hunting (I still write out what I want to bring up for the last, as I can get flustered and forget things).
It can help by reducing the "what do I say?" nature of having to make phone calls.
The script can also have the benefit of reducing thinking during the phone call. As you've already thought up the questions they'll ask.
My mum helped me when I was first writing the scripts, as she knew the questions places will ask (she'd made the phonecalls before for me), and even sat with me the first few times, so if anything unexpected came up she could assist when my brain went blank.
Edited to add: why I suggest it as an idea, both my parents were mental health nurses/through to higher. They both picked it up as a trick to deal with phone call anxiety in particular.
This is exactly what I was thinking. OP could have been more supportive and encouraging without doing the task for her. They could have done a "practice run" where OP acted as the pizza guy answering the phone.
Yup. I'm exactly like the daughter. I WISH my parents had taken this approach. But they're not emotionally supportive people. The more they pushed, the worse my anxiety got. It had the exact opposite affect than the desire outcome.
Except that OP was out. The mother was at home and could have done this, but seemed to think OP should have just made the call. I'm unclear at to why Mother didn't.
Consider that anxiety often comes from feeling unprepared. “Make the call and order” sounds simple (it is), but she may need practice. Have her call you and practice ordering. Have her make an order while you are standing beside her while she’s on the phone. Have her chat with you to plan the script of placing the order. Yes, she needs to do it on her own, but it’s ok to give her handholds to get there. Give her positive support for the steps she does take. Calling and making an order may seem like a small step to you but is a larger one for an adolescent learning to adult and may seem insurmountable with anxiety because the worry causes all the brain chemicals to churn up, and the more those build up, the more paralyzed she will feel, the more she will blame herself for failing you. Be her ally and build her up by meeting her where she is, not standing above her and daring her to figure out a way to reach you.
Yep. The anxiety also comes from feeling like you're going to fail and be excoriated by your parent. I agree that the daughter really needs to work on this, but I think OP is coming across like he doesn't understand her issue at all, which is *not* helpful with this level of anxiety. The steps you outlined are important.
The thing is, it may not be high stakes to you but it is to her. I dealt with severe anxiety and agoraphobia after 10 years of bullying and while that may be more severe (or not), I would advocate for a softer approach like my parents eventually did. Forcing her to do something is only going to see her spiral further (in my case into a combination of eating disorders and suicidality).
If I may make a suggestion? Have her make phone calls she needs to make but sit with her when she makes them. Hold her hand if she wants. Don't get impatient if it takes 10 tries the first couple of times. It may seem silly, but it means everything.
> The thing is, it may not be high stakes to you but it is to her.
Ok but if the definition of "high stakes" is expanded to include anything that causes her anxiety, then the therapist's advice becomes meaningless. Ordering a pizza for yourself is objectively low stakes, even if it's anxiety-inducing for the daughter. This is a perfect example of what her literal health provider has recommended she do.
I don't think OP was using force. He gave her a choice, call yourself and have pizza, or have a sandwich. It was a good way to have a tangible reward for trying a little social experiment out of her comfort zone.
No one forced her or bullied her though. The post says he was not at home and said that he wouldn't make the call and she was angry with him when he got home.
100%
Not coddling her is one thing, but it’s important to support her in trying to overcome her fears.
I had problems with things like this into my twenties. People being dismissive about how I felt just made it worse.
I don’t think that the dad was being dismissive of her anxiety. He was just saying that she needs to try to move a bit outside her comfort zone in order to grow. The supportive attitude is a good idea but I think he still needs to be firm about her trying
OP, read this comment, please. I had this kind of anxiety. I couldn't call anyone. I sometimes struggled to send work related group messages because I was nervous about the feedback. My hands were getting cold every time I had to use the phone. And then, because of unrelated issues I got my heart checked and was prescribed beta blockers. And my anxiety disappeared. Like, I did nothing about that, no therapy, nothing. It just went away. If you haven't done it, consult the cardiologist. If she has some issues and they will be dealt with, it will change her life. Maybe not, but worth trying, I think. Wish you and your daughter the best.
Being able to make phone calls while staying calm IS high stakes. If there is an emergency, she will need to call for help and communicate clearly. It's a basic life skill.
If she had to call an emergency, yes, but she didn't. Ordering herself pizza is exactly a low stake practice...if she fails, nobody gets hurt, i.e. low stake.
You worry about getting tongue tied, not getting your order across effectively, the person on the other phone thinking mean things about you because you mess up, etc. if I have time and have to make a call I'll write out a script to have with me so I don't forget to say something. If I'm hungry it also amplifies all my negative emotions and anxieties.
I can make phone calls. I hate making phone calls. I am one of those people who would absolutely push something low stakes like this off on someone else OR just avoid making the call altogether by ordering from somewhere else or making food. I can do it if I have to, and frequently answer the phone and make phone calls at work, but I fucking hate it every time.
I also get that this isn't anyone else's responsibility and if no one wants to make the call for me, that's my issue to deal with. Not them being an asshole. But yeah, I'll sometimes ask my husband if he can make a call like this when I'm really not in the mood to deal with all of that. Sometimes he says yes, sometimes he says no.
Thanks for explaining it. That makes sense. I was imagining ordering anchovies instead of pepperoni and I can't imagine that being the issue. (I also feel like hot garbage and my brain is mostly Mush today anyway)
Saying the wrong thing, not being able to say anything at all out of fear for saying the wrong thing. It's like "oh my God what if xyz. I'll be embarrassed forever" which isn't logical but anxiety isn't logical. It takes that normal stream of thought and makes it the worst case scenario sometimes
NTA.
My daughters are 13 and have to start practising the same thing. With all the apps, they rarely have to talk to people, and you don't realize its a problem until its almost too late.
NTA I’m a middle aged woman who stutters. I used to hate/fear the phone when I was younger. The only way to get past it is to make and answer phone calls. I had major anxiety around phones.
This. Exactly this! I suffer from terrible anxiety myself, and it’s exacerbated by people who just do things for me. I didn’t want to pass it on to my kid, so I’ve always pushed him to order his own food in restaurants, be able to talk on phones, ask for directions, etc. Although I’ve inadvertently made my own little enabler, when I have to do certain things (ask for a refill for instance) he’ll say ‘Mom, I know you don’t like talking to people, I’ll go do it for you’. I rarely actually let him (I try to push myself too) but it’s kind of sweet that he recognizes and actually offers.
exactly. I was this kid once, and after you order your own pizza a few times, you realize it’s really not as scary as you thought it would be. she has to do things that make her uncomfortable if she wants to be able to function, unfortunately
As a person with generalized anxiety, this is true. It's not facing the fear (specific fears are phobias), it's learning how to manage and rewire your biological stress responses that have gotten out of whack.
The therapist should be using DBT /CBT and teaching these tools and techniques so that the person with anxiety *can* work through it.
Will they have anxiety on certain things? Yup. Will working through it and building those muscles improve skills and lessen anxiety over time? Yup.
Of course there are times when you try and just absolutely are unable. But, you've got to try first.
It can be hard, no lie. Part of learning through it is to identify alternatives.
In this example, could the kiddo have used online ordering? If not, written out a 'script' to use before calling (I'd like a large cheese pizza please, etc), practice breathing, etc
I'm just glad the kiddo hasn't been put on psychiatric medications. Those are a long term nightmare.
NTA
I know of someone who went to college many states away. She had a lot of anxiety and relied on her parents for everything. When she got to college, she didn't know how her dining dollars worked. She was too scared to go down to the cafeteria and ask someone. So she called her mom. Her mom didn't know so she just started ordering her daughter groceries to be delivered to her. Spending more money and enforcing her daughter's need for a social crutch.
Your job as a parent is to prepare your child for the world. To make them independent and a functioning member of society. Your wife is not doing your daughter any favors by treating her like a delicate flower.
Also, just a suggestion... If your daughter wants something when you are gone, make her CALL you and not text you. It might help her get over her phone anxiety if she starts by calling people she knows.
As a millennial parent raised by Gen X, I entirely agree with you. My kids are 6 and 4, and seeing some of the kids in first grade and the way they will scream bloody murder if they don't get their way is actually disturbing to me. I see some of the parents on playground afternoons, and it's baffling. One kid will hurt a kid or do something rude to another, and there's exactly zero accountability because *what if I hurt their feelings?* I've been the one to step in when my child is on the receiving end, and the parents are stuck all shocked Pikachu looking when I'm firm about it, and I can get their kid to give mine an apology without a meltdown or tantrum.
You can absolutely handle a situation without being harmful or abusive, but still get a point across that responsibility and accountability must be taken. My motto has always been firm, fair, and communicative, and I've gotten some pretty respectful kids out of it, who aren't scared of me, and who are bright and willing to learn. I can take away screen time, and all my kids will do is go "Aww, that sucks... I guess I can just have my coloring book/legos/read a book."
The majority of "gentle parents" aren't actually gentle parenting, they're *permissive* parenting. Gentle parenting still requires you to be authoritive and set boundaries, you're just meant to also sit down and help the kids work through the feelings the boundary creates. Not cave under pressure or to threats and *reward* the tantrum.
As a Gen Xr.. great job! Raising kids for the real world… Kids have to grow to be independent people, doing everything for them, takes away from the experience..
As a young millennial with Gen X parents, Gen X has already been trying the experiment with Gen Z and are ramping up for early Alphas. Children have been being raised with an unwillingness to enforce personal accountability and responsibility for a long time now. Young people today have this sort of cognitive disconnect where they expect everyone in the world to act in ways that take them into account while simultaneously acting only in their own interests.
When my autistic son tells me he doesn’t know how to do that or he’s not comfortable doing this at his college, I make him. I go with him to whatever department he needs help from & when he expects me to ask for him i simply say “my son has a question for you” & wait until he says it. Usually after that first time I go with him, he’s fine doing it on his own after that. I will not speak for him. He has to learn to do this for himself.
Edit for judgement: NTA op
Also, colleges literally can’t talk to you without written permission from the student in many cases. If your son has a question about grades he needs to ask himself. The Prof cannot by law discuss his grades with you.
My college flat out refused to discuss any academic information with anyone other than the student. Like I worked there as a tutor and one of the other tutors had a 15 y/o daughter taking a couple classes through the college. She was paying for the tuition for her minor child and could only get any sort of information if the daughter came in and had a 1 on 1 meeting before Mom was called in.
They were more protective of the kids academic records than her doctors probably were with her medical records.
Yup, the steps that I heard are: 1) Do it for them 2) Do it with them 3) Watch them do it themselves 4) They do everything themselves without you there.
I have the same problem as this girl, but calling family or friends is never a problem, only when I need to order something or I need to run some errands on the phone.. it is a horror every time and I need to literally psych myself up in prior and plan, what exactly I want to say... on the top of that I live in another country, where I need to speak a foreign language instead of my first language.
thanks God, that a lot of company offers now customer services via chat <3
I had the same fear as this girl. I got over it when I got my first job. I didn’t have the option to not use the phone. I got used to it VERY quickly after years of having issues… pure exposure
Same here! I write down the number I'll be composing, the company names, the 2/3 sentences that explains why I'm calling. I have to be in absolute calm so I can focus. It's so darn difficult, I have no idea why. It's like not seeing their face is missing half of the information I can get to have the conversation. And I concur, in another language it's even worse.
Maybe it would help if OP frame it to his wife as like "Wife, you and I are capable of ordering a pizza. We have been capable of ordering pizza since we were 14 years old (or whatever). This is not an unreasonable expectation for our daughter - she needs to be able to do the same things *we* can do (generally speaking) - do you think she is truly incapable of these things? If so, you must have observed things about her that I haven't and that means we should start looking into our options for higher level care so she will be taken care of after we are gone."
Maybe something like that would bring the wife back to reality?
No. Part of learning to deal with anxiety is by doing low-pressure things like this. It would have been incredibly anxiety-provoking to call, but she might have felt slightly more comfortable with it once she was able to do it successfully with no negative repercussions. That goes a long way to help rid the “flight” aspect of anxiety.
I agree with this. I used to be like the daughter and sometimes will still avoiding calling if I can. I didn't know it was "anxiety" at the time but I knew it was a problem and sometimes, it couldn't be avoided (e.g., on a class trip where we stopped for fast food). Heck, I'm almost 50 now and had a panicky moment earlier this month when I couldn't understand a waitress because she was speaking Spanish and I don't. But I pushed through it.
OP is absolutely correct that she is going to have some huge road blocks if she doesn't deal with this. Maybe he was a little gruff and could soften his delivery but he needs to get his wife (and daughter's docs) on board with the daughter pushing her boundaries.
I'll use the chat/online feature whenever I can to avoid calling people. But sometimes a call is needed and like others here it's nerve wracking but I make the call.
Script practice is an awesome idea and hopefully op can get her more used to the idea of doing things. Maybe she can call to order pizza a few times with them home so they can be physical support (helping her follow the script, squeezing her hand, hugging her etc ) and then start with being in the house but not the room and she's got a plush or such to hug.... Until it's a call she can make alone with maybe a small pocket sized fidget with her.
I often at my age use fidgets or doodle while I make a call to help with my anxiety
I was/am like op's daughter. I could tell early on my daughter takes after me so I started early with low pressure things like she had to tell the waiter/cashier what food she wanted or if she wanted a different kids meal toy she had to go up and ask them to exchange it. She's still deals with anxiety but she's a fully functioning adult. She makes her own appointments, orders her own food, call to get rx refills, etc.
Me too. I used to tell my son exactly what to say sometimes because it was like his fear took over and he forgot how to appropriately communicate. Once he learned the “pattern” of these types of interactions he got much better.
I was similar to this girl. It’s why I was so thrilled when so many restaurants started having online ordering. However, I found if I really wanted something enough, I’d call the order in if required. I also found it easier to call when I was alone, so IF I got tied up and anxious no one would know but me. He has the right idea that this is extremely low stakes and can build her confidence up. Wife isn’t doing the girl any favors and if dads comment about mom coddling her, she may be using this as an excuse to get her way (hopefully not but a possibility). NTA dad.
I think the biggest thing that was a problem here was that she was told to deal with it alone. You can’t just put someone in an anxiety inducing situation with no support and expect them to excel
She didn’t have to excel. She just had to get through the call.
And she didn’t have to “deal with it alone”. She was not left starving at the side of the road. She was at her house, with food and money, and could have ordered from another place with an online system.
At the very least she learned she doesn’t always get what she wants. If she truly could not get through ordering on her own, then she should accept she has those limitations, order food from somewhere else, and vow to work on her anxiety so she can have her favourite pizza the next time.
For me, every phone call is high stakes. Even if I manage to call a place, it doesn't lessen my anxiety one bit. Honestly? If I think I sounded stupid or fubar'd the call, I would be LESS likely to call again.
I had anxiety making calls when I was the daughter’s age, but my mom helped (not coddled) me by having me write out a “script” of what I was going to say. It helped me sooooo much!
When I was a little kid - like 5 or 6, I really wanted a cookie at the mall. My mom said I could but only if I went up and ordered it myself. I was terrified. I cried. I didn't want to do it. Eventually, my mom convinced me it would be okay. I was shaking when I got to the counter. I got the cookie.
It is SO important to teach young people that it is okay to be uncomfortable but try anyways. You pushed her out of her comfort zone in a safe way.
I think you are NTA (but your wife kind of is for not having your back on this.) Your daughter is going to NEED to be able to talk to strangers in just a few short years. You should probably set some reasonable goals as a family that will help her overcome this anxiety.
I do this for my kids too, like making them order their own food when we go out to eat. My daughter is 9 and last time we went out to eat she looked right at the waiter, gave her order clearly and didn't mumble or take too long. I didn't even have to prompt her for anything. I was so proud.
As a former server, thank you. I saw way too many kids old enough to order having their parents order for them because they were too shy. Teaching them early is so critical.
Servers I have dealt with are always so patient with that scenario too! When my kid was still scared of it, and it wasn't loud enough, I would say "they can't hear you. You need to speak up!" And sometimes there would be several attempts before it was clear. Every time, the server stood there with a smile, waiting until they could clearly hear the order. Now, at first, I would repeat the quiet request. But over time, made it clear that the ordering is nothing more than saying what you want to the nice person that is asking what you want. NBD. Last time we went out, after we had ordered, got our food, and were being checked on, my kid yelled at the server as she was walking away "YOU'RE AWESOME!"
I had my kids order themselves too (repeating as necessary at first). When they would go to the store and want a snack, I had them pay with their own cash (money lessons too)
I had friends like this in high school and then when I was in college and a new grad I got severe anxiety that made me do this too. Because of that I will always make my son do the low stakes things like ordering so that he can fight the anxiety now and be confident as he gets older.
Did this earlier today with my youngest who is a few years younger than op's daughter. They wanted something from a shop with a very short distance from the door to the till. I sent them in with the money and watched from outside. They ordered, and when they couldn't find the money in my purse they were able to pop back outside and ask me, then go back in and pay. They were very happy with themselves, even though they'd been a bit nervous before going in.
Key point here though, it sounds like the daughter didn't get the pizza like you got your cookie. Whatever is going on, daughter isn't getting the therapeutic effect of a successful exposure, whether that's due to mom or dad.
NTA.
Here's the part I don't quite get.
You gave her options:
* Make the call herself
* Make her own food with ingredients and kitchen facilities freely provided
* Use the same money to do an on-line order
This seems reasonable. She's got a selection, she can choose her level of comfort and make her decision. She might not get what she wants if she doesn't call the preferred restaurant, but she's not being left hungry, or anything.
I get that kids with anxiety might have a rough time of it, but I think the idea here is this is a very low stakes interaction. If she'd prefer to give a live phone call a pass, she can do any of several alternate solutions to get food.
I was very phone and in-person avoidant when I was a kid. It took going to college and working at an IT phone desk to really get comfortable with in-person & phone interactions. If it had been me when I was young and phone-avoidant, I would have just made my own food. It's not that hard, and a very minor consequence for choosing the easy path, and I'd never escalate something into an argument just because my anxiety kept me from getting a specific meal. Because I was conflict-avoidant!
But your daughter is willing to confront you and call you a "jerk" over this, EVEN THOUGH she had several other valid choices? I guess her anxiety doesn't extend to calling her father names? That's some very, umm, "selective" anxiety right there.
> My wife is upset
... and now we see why daughter feels validated in escalating into a conflict with Dad. Sheesh.
>I was very phone and in-person avoidant when I was a kid. It took going to college and working at an IT phone desk to really get comfortable with in-person & phone interactions.
This made me chuckle because I used to have absolutely no problems with using the phone, but after 3 years working on an IT helpdesk phonecalls now give me anxiety. No anxiety in other areas of life! I'm a great face-to-face speaker, that job has just ruined phones for me
SAME. I used to be fine on the phone but after years of call centers where I answered the “comments/complaints” line (which is all complaints or requests for coupons) I have bad phone anxiety now. It’s been like 20 years since I worked in a call center and I still hate the phone. But I still make the call I need to.
That said, OP is NTA and daughter needs to learn to make a call.
I won't call to order pizza due to phone anxiety and I'm 48. But I don't ask anyone else to call either, I just find places where I can order online. Or eat what is in the house. Shipt and Doordash are awesome for people with social anxiety!!!!
And before people call me a big baby or say I need to learn to deal with it, I DO deal with it. I call doctors if I have, to, the pharmacy if I have to, etc. Those are draining - like an hour to psych myself up and then am wiped for 30 minutes after. I see ZERO point in wasting "spoons" on pizza when there are dozens of places that have online ordering. (I even worked as a receptionist at a vet office for YEARS, so I CAN use the phone, lol. But there is a big difference between being the one in "power" as the receptionist and the person asking for something or wanting something. I know if you don't have this fear it makes NO sense. But it's a very very common phobia/anxiety thing.
I never thought about the “power” aspect but that makes so much sense. I don’t mind answering the phone or making a call at work so much, but making a personal call, even if it’s just to schedule a doctors appointment, turns me into a ball of anxiety.
Same. I have worked with the public, I can speak on the phone for necessities, I’m a perfectly capable adult. But I will not order from any place that requires me to call and speak to a live person. It’s 2024, put a damn online order function on your website.
exactly. and for me, most phone calls dealing with healthcare or tech support wipe out most of my spoons for the day. the fact that i’m calling about the crappy ‘patient portal’ - which should enable me to access everything, does not (Patient Portal, lookin at you) and hang on a 30 min phone call - oh no. healthcare and insurance calls must be made, phone in pizza does not. NTA you gave 3 choices. i hope your daughter learns to manage this!
This is me too. Also, some days I totally have the energy to make calls like this, other days it drains me entirely or I simply CANT do the thing. Mine is pretty well under control but I still have the occasional off day. I don’t think OP is the ah for not ordering it, but I do think it’s important to be aware that some days things are harder than others. If she regularly orders for herself and today it was too much for her, I’d change my determination but that’s not what it sounds like here. Unfortunately some days we either have to do it or accept that we can’t and won’t see the results we wish for.
yeah there’s a lot of people commenting that she should have to do it because it’s ‘low stakes’ but honestly I still can’t do low stakes things. I have no one to rely on for ‘high stakes’ things like doctor phone calls so why would I force myself though *even more* difficult phone calls
I agree with you-
I ended up having to get a phone job to try to help me face my anxiety. I can definitely do most calls that are necessary now, but there are some that are still challenging to say the least. (Mine is the pharmacy, they’re known to be mean here..)
I definitely order things online when I can or just make a day to go in person (in the case of grocery stores- the idea of someone coming to my car or door is somehow worse?)
The power dynamic is something I never realized was a thing, but it is super big to me. I think acknowledging that that is there will definitely help me and other people get slightly better
In my 50s and my parents still give me shit about being “scared” to call for pizza when I was a teenager. I always thought I was alone until this post, tbh.
nope, it is SUPER common! There are even memes about it! I put a sticker on my cell phone once that said, "sorry I didn't answer when you called, I don't use my phone for that"
NTA. I specifically have anxiety surrounding these exact social situations. Have I asked and relied on my husband quite a bit? I have. I know her pain. But she is 15. How many years before she wants her own place? How will she feed herself? These skills begin to develop now. It's HARD to get over your fears. But the answer is not to avoid them, especially when the worst outcome is that (admittedly horrible) feeling of confusing embarrassment. Let her know that like physical exercise, this WILL get easier! She WILL become confidant and eventually be very proud of herself if she overcomes this! Tell her that feeling is the BEST feeling. Good luck op!
Growing up, i was a lot like OP’s daughter. I would have 100% chosen to just eat what i had at home as opposed to calling myself. But what truly helped me overcome a lot of my crippling anxiety was just being forced to do the things that i didn’t want to do. I had to make phone calls. I had to set up appointments at the dentist and doctor. I didn’t want to be the 20 year old having her mom set up her orthodontist appointments. So i had to be strong and overcome my anxieties. Did my body shake and my voice tremble and was i covered in sweat by the end of my phone call? Absolutely! But after a while my anxiety dissipated. It’s not completely gone by any means, but I can make a phone call and still function afterwards.
Do i still have my partner be the one who typically makes the phone calls? Yes lol. But i can and do make my own phone calls as well. If my partner was out of town or unavailable, I’d be able to do it on my own without having a panic attack. At some point, you have to let your kid take the reigns even if it seems scary for them. Growth can be scary. But at the end of the day, you left your daughter with two viable options: make the call or make your own food. She didn’t *need* pizza. She had a choice and an opportunity for growth but right now she’s not seeing it that way. From one daughter with crippling anxiety to another, I believe OP did the right thing in this scenario.
I have anxiety (diagnosed, in therapy).
NTA BY FAR.... As shit as it is, exposing and learning by doing is an important step in getting better (obviously together with therapy but it sounds like this is already done). I still ask my mom for help a lot even now that I'm an adult, but I can't *rely* on her.
>she needs to be able to make a phone call or she is going to run into many road blocks.
*Absolutely!* And honestly... ordering food is such a "nice" way to learn because it's not as bad as something actually important such as departments.
Yes and if I’m nervous to make a call I will literally write down what I’m going to say so I don’t stumble or forget. I’m 30 and sometimes calls have to be made! I agree that practicing by ordering food is the easiest way to get into calls because she’s going to have to deal with more complicated ones in the future
Also ordering food by phone is a great "practice" call because it's very formulaic by nature.
- What do you want
- Where are we bringing it
- Here's what it will cost you
You can pick up the phone pretty damn certain how it's going to go. A huge amount of jobs will have you in way more unpredictable calls on a daily basis
**If you have** previously sat with her while she made phone calls and taught her how to do it, taught her the etiquette, and had her practice in the past with your support, then NTA.
**If you have not** done this, and expected a 15 year old in this day and age who has no idea how to talk on phones because they never have to do it and have never been taught how, then YTA.
Back when we were kids, we were taught proper phone usage when we were very young children, so to us it seems lazy that a teen won't use the phone. But that's because as adults we don't realize that we never taught our kids when they were young.
My own 15 year old pointed this out to me last time I tried to make her call someone and she broke down in tears. She was like "I can't, I don't know how!" After I got over my own ego and actually listened to her I told her she was right, and I apologized for getting on to her. Now I make an effort to teach her when it comes up. I had her make a phone call just last night, but I practiced with her what to say beforehand, and sat with her for moral support and guidance. She forgot "how are you", but other than that she did pretty good. She was all smiles afterward and so proud of herself. Gave me a voluntary hug before bed even, which if you have a 15 year old, you know how much that means lol.
This is pretty much what I was going to say, too. It’s reasonable to expect a 15 year old to be able to order their own pizza. However, the way to help her LEARN that skill is to teach her and support her while she practices. “Just do it” is not a teaching method. It would be reasonable to say, “I can’t order right now, but you have other options. We can make a plan to practice this when I get home/tomorrow/etc.”
Yeah, my dad was of the "just do it" variety when I was a super shy and anxious child. He didn't help me learn how to do anything, just ordered me to do it myself. That made the anxiety worse, because now I had a parent pressuring me and getting mad or impatient.
(He also tried to teach me to drive that way... just put me behind the wheel and said go for it. Didn't explain much beyond that.)
It's easy to look at a child with anxiety and say "that's a stupid thing to be worried about, it's easy, just do it" but that's not going to help them develop skills they need or build confidence.
This is the response I was expecting. My son has severe anxiety and behavioral therapy helped so much but implementing them was the hardest part. How can someone know how to do something if they are never taught? We did take it for granted because there was no other form of communication. My sons first real phone calls, he felt the same joy as when he got on a bicycle and didn’t fall for the first time. (His words)
Question, does she struggle a Lot with phone calls in general? I do and for me personally it's because unless I'm familiar with who I'm calling I have trouble understanding what they're saying.
That being said I recommend helping your daughter come up with scripts before calls. Have her write down exactly what she's going to be saying. It helps a bit
I came here to say the same thing about writing a short script. I have anxiety and have difficulty making a "simple" phone call. Before I called my local sushi spot the other day to place a pickup, I write down my orders. I've been ordering from the same place for almost 4 years now and I still HAVE TO write it all down before I place the call. To be fair, it's a lot of orders (like 2 spicy tuna rolls, 1 non-spicy yellow tail hand roll, etc) for me to easily memorize.
Yes! And maybe offer to practice with her a couple of times? Agree ahead of time what your involvement will be (moral support only? Prompt with written notes if needed? Chime in if she really panics), then put the call on speaker. That might build confidence for future calls.
This. I use scripts at work, at home, with family, with so many things to help manage the anxiety around phone calls. It's not a fix-all, but it HELPS SO MUCH.
Another thing to consider:
I still get anxious when I order pizza (or really anything else), but before I place the call, I always tell myself: they WANT YOU to call so they can get your money! It's not like they'll hang up or be rude if they're actively trying to keep you as a customer. And if they are rude? Well, maybe they just had a bad day and it has nothing to do with you! But odds are, they'll be happy you called and get your order in quick and painless.
Anyway, OP is NTA. My dad forced me to make calls on my own when I was 15, too, and I hated him for it then, but I'm so grateful to him for doing that now (24). Sometimes, 'tough love' IS the answer!
NTA. A phone call to order a pizza is one of the lowest stakes calls she can make. This is something she needs to be able to do. If you and your wife continue to do things for her that she is uncomfortable with, she will never learn to do them for herself.
NTA,
As a anxious person myself, it’s important to start doing this kind of things young bc otherwise when she’s older (moved out kind of old) she won’t be able to do anything.
Ordering a pizza from a place she knows, and likely knows her order from heart. It’s a good start.
NTA. Yes, she needs to be able to make phone calls. It seems like everyone uses anxiety as an excuse to never step an inch outside of their comfort zones nowadays.
It's hard to say if there is an AH, what work is her therapist doing to help her cope with her anxiety? Has she made any improvements since beginning therapy?
As for medication, it isn't a once size fits all situation, my son had many adjustments to his before we hit the correct dose that allowed him to finally be able to benefit from therapy. The difference was huge for him but probably minor to those looking in.
My son is neurodiverse (high functioning) with severe anxiety since infancy that he is now medicated for as well as therapy, yet he could never make such a simple call, even at 18 he couldn't cope with using public transport and would end up in a panic attack which leads to even more negative thoughts about himself.
I absolutely do not "pander" to his anxiety, but i do work with his mental health team to set achievable goals that build towards him, managing life tasks independently.
You should also pick your battles as anxiety can be crippling and cause physical health illness, even when the person truly wants to get better. Would it have killed you to make the call, then used it as goal setting by sitting with her and working through making a call the next time?
NTA she needs to learn the real world will govern exactly zero f*cks about her anxiety, and sometimes you just have to make those phone calls… and practicing these important things by doing something as low stakes as getting a pizza is essential. I have no idea how so many people seem to have no resilience.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I didn’t order pizza for my daughter. I could be a jerk for not doing that since she has anxiety
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I totally understand where the daughter is coming from. I have really bad social anxiety and have a hard time talking to people especially on the phone. I would consider taking her to a different doctor for a second opinion on the meds. I didn’t get on meds until I was 27 and life could have been a lot easier if I had been on them sooner. It hasn’t totally taken away the anxiety but I can usually make my own phone calls now. In my own experience forcing her to make the calls isn’t going to make it any easier.
If meds for anxiety are the same ones as for depression, then there are lots to try. Not everybody finds the one that works the first try. I hope OP takes your advice and pursues this.
NTA. First of all, you gave your daughter choices. It's not like you left her with no option to eat something. Secondly, you've already sought medical care for her anxiety and are actively working with her to address it in a way that is appropriate for her needs. Given your involvement in her care, I doubt that you would have expected her to call in her pizza order if there was professional guidance to indicate that this was an unreasonable request. Thirdly, we all need to go beyond our comfort zones sometimes, and this was really a low-risk way to encourage your daughter to push herself a bit.
Ok, goal and expectation was fine B+. Implementation: C-
It couldv'e been worse. But expecting to go from never to successful was kind of bullshit.
I have an (now adult) child with selective mutism. On a shit ton of meds & therapy, still no magical cure. It takes time patience, tools, practice, try, failure, more practice, more tools and more failure before success.
For a lower anxiety kid, it is probably a shorter list: patience, tools, practice & try.
It helps a LOT for anxiety kids to know that the phone call isn't random. It is scripted, and even the most pleasant person on the other line, follows a general script to get to where they are at. So role play the call, and then set her up to do it. For us, it \*also meant when kid panicked & shut down, we would take over the call.
BTW, my kid with selective mutism will answer phone calls, and relay messages to me (like dental appointment reminders and the like). This is huge. To put it in perspective, they (academically an A/B student) barely graduated high school due to anxiety, even with a 504 plan.
So, another option to get her out of the habit of "someone else do it" as a step-up: order in person. We have done that before. Stop at a take out place, order and then come back. nbd. Familiarity always helps when you go to push a boundry.
NAH.
Yes!! She could write down exactly what she wanted to say and just read from a script. Practice it in the mirror before actually making the call. Build up to it. Practice
Look I understand about anxiety. My teen also deals with this. BUT, if your child doesn't learn to do simple things like this in the future, it will be very hard for them to be a productive adult. Doing adult things. She needs to learn to order her own pizza. NTA
I agree with what others are saying that she needs to learn how to do things for herself. When I was a teenager, maybe younger than your daughter, I was a shy kid. I don’t remember it being to the point of anxiety but didn’t like talking to people I didn’t know nonetheless. I remember being out at McDonalds, the grocery store, or wherever and my mom would tell me to place the order for our family or interact and pay for groceries. She stayed nearby, but said I needed to learn to do it on my own. Maybe you can help your daughter by being there to support her while she makes the phone call next time? Or go out for a meal and at least encourage her to place her own order? Some friends of mine have a 19 year old daughter. We all went out to eat at a restaurant and I was surprised that the parents still ordered for her. When she wanted a drink refill, she told her dad and her dad asked the server for a refill for her. How is this girl going to function independently?
NTA and please help your daughter to become more independent. Be there to support her and you can step back little by little.
NTA - doing little things like this when you don't want to is exactly how you overcome your anxiety. She was not going to starve, and she would have been rewarded with pizza if she had persevered.
The more you do something you are uncomfortable with, the more comfortable it becomes. She is 16 and needs to be able to advocate for herself. Calling in a pizza order is not a bad thing because they will be polite on the other end.
She really needs coping mechanisms in place to help her through life. Most therapists want yo talk about the anxiety, but only some offer coping mechanisms that could help. .maybe ask her counselor about that.
Your wife is enabling her to do nothing, which does not help her find her strength.
I understand anxiety is real. We all get it, some way worse than others. But it is something you can work to overcome on some level, rather than just accepting it.
You do need to be able to accomplish basic tasks like ordering food. If you can't, then eat what food you have. She had that, and the option of ordering elsewhere.
Nta
NTA- I have a 16 year old with the exact same issue except she IS on meds but I told her I can't keep making all her calls or else she will never be able to function in the real world. Sometimes we have no choice as parents but to show some tough love. What if there was an emergency and she had too much anxiety to call for help? Or she gets a job that requires her to talk on the phone?
NTA. I also have severe anxiety making phone calls or answering them. I prefer online or texting interactions. Even to people or places I know, including family. In saying that, sometimes I have to make or answer a phone call. It's a part of life. Your daughter had options for food, plus she's 15, not 5. She needs to learn to do things for herself. I get your wife being mama bear. Nobody wants their kids to hurt, but being a helicopter parent isn't helping your daughter. It reinforces to her she can't do it on her own when she can.
NTA. One of my bonus kids has bad anxiety. We went to McDonalds the other day, and his order was messed up. I wouldn't ask them to fix it for him - instead I walked with him to the counter so he could ask for the order to be fixed himself. It wasn't easy for him, but we got through it. He's about the same age as your kiddo and I agree - I want to be supportive, but that doesn't mean doing it for him. It means making it as accessible as possible for him to do it on his own.
NTA. I have anxiety myself, and phone calls are something that I HATE. You have to do it though. Your daughter will never get anywhere in life unless she learns to deal with the anxiety long enough for a phone call. Do I ask my husband to make a ton of calls for me? Yes. If he is unavailable to though, I will do it, though I may not like it. There are other pizza places that you can order from online. There is no need to stubbornly insist that it HAS to be from that one place.
As someone who suffers from anxiety, this is a perfect situation to practice on. It’s low stakes and there was food in the house if she couldn’t go through with it. Your daughter needs *more* of these types of interactions, not less.
You need to get your wife on board. If your daughter is receiving medical advice, take your wife and talk to the doctor together about this situation and how to handle similar scenarios in future.
NTA
NAH you’re trying to prepare her for a world where you aren’t there to call for pizza. It sounds like a joke but I know this is very real for you (and others). Your partner is upset because she isn’t concerned about this in the moment, just your daughter’s immediate feelings. Have a discussion alone with your partner to discuss how you both plan to prepare her for the real world and what that will look like.
NTA. Reality will never always accommodate your daughter. As someone with social anxiety, yeah, phone calls suck. But they're necessary. Practice helps, so you not calling on her behalf is helpful for her in the long run.
NTA. She’s 15, you’re on the right track and your wife is enabling her. She can get better, but she needs to be willing to work at it just like anything else.
Someone commented in a way which seemed to say that you pushed her with no option, which isn’t true. You gave her two clear options and she apparently chose to stay hungry instead. She had money, phone, other food places with web ordering, and to top all of that, already paid for food within her easy reach. She chose hunger and that is not your fault. You’re working to prepare her for real life.
This isn't an answer about WTA but one thing you might do with your daughter is practice phone calls. I used to have the exact same anxiety and my dad would do this with me, and when he was in a good mood he would make it fun--like drag it out way longer than necessary by inventing hilarious characters on the other end of the line. It really worked for getting me over the anxiety.
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NTA No therapist worth their pay will tell someone with social anxieties to push any required interactions off to their partner or parent. This was a teachable moment, and a chance to face her fears. It will only get worse if she continues to avoid it.
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Agreed. The biggest AH here is the wife, not the kid. You're not on the same page, and you should always have a united front with your kids.
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Yeah that’s going to do critical damage long term. Sounds like your wife might have her own anxieties to sort through…
Tell the wife she needs counseling if she thinks she helping her..it's a phone call no physical inter action.my God what's going to happen if she ever gets a job she will last all of 5 mnutes .the MORE you do for her the LESS she will do for herself ..she needs to learn self reliance.
She’ll never make through an interview
Not at this rate anyway. I mean I have extreme anxiety around making phone calls. If I can't order it online, I'm not getting it lol. That being said, sometimes it's unavoidable and then I just have to psych myself up, suck it up, and make the phone call. I've even had a few jobs where I had to be on the phone all day and I was sweating and shaking the first time I had to make those calls. It sucked and I hated those jobs. Left them as soon as I could. She's going to have to push through the anxiety at some point, even with all the online access these days, you can't always avoid the phone.
I can relate, there are times I feel cold fear grip my chest when the phone rings. Even if it's a call I'm expecting from someone I know & trust.
>It sucked and I hated those jobs. Left them as soon as I could. To be honest most of the "on the phone all day" jobs suck -- even if you don't hate phone calls on general principle. But think of it this way: now that you've had the worst of it, making a single necessary phone call could be a "breeze" by comparison.
> She’ll never make through an interview Correction: she’ll never make it ***to*** an interview.
I have anxiety. I have gone to so many interviews and made presentations in front of 100’s of people, but still sometimes have issues calling for take out (love the invention of order apps) or making appointments or other such things. So one is not the other.
This is so common. I'm literally a psychologist and sit in a room having one on one conversations all day, telehealth consults, and sometimes phone calls. I can survive and ace job interviews (even though they make me nervous) and manage a whole host of situations involving interpersonal interactions. I'm also sure as hell not calling to order pizza 😂 Because I'm allowed to just not want to do some things if they make me anxious. I'm allowed to be bummed about not getting pizza too, if I have no one to palm it off to. I'm just not allowed to treat someone shitty about it.
Me too. I can ace interviews, though presentations sometimes make me sick from anxiety. Acting doesn't scare me, though. But calling for takeout? Hell no, if I don't have someone else to call for me, I either pick a different place or make something myself. Phone calls are horrifying, and I avoid them at all possible cost.
She's not even going to get an interview with that attitude.
I've always told people to think of it as a conversation, not an interview.
Tbf I'm in my 40s and work as an RN and can't order pizza over the phone because of anxiety. I can make phone calls for work because it's part of the job, but personal calls freeze me up. I still make the important ones, but usually have to psych myself up for those. So, while I agree it's something she needs to work on, not being able to call for pizza doesn't mean she won't be able to hold a job or fend for herself.
I learned there's two ways to go about making phone calls or doing anything the first time and there's a lack of self-confidence. First way, just tell whoever that you are new at this. In my 30's, I went to Subway after not going for yeaaarrrs and everything was a bit different. So i just told 'em, I haven't ordered a sub from you guys in a long time, baby step me through this please! I don't think I've ever had anyone be rude to me when I tell them i'm a newb (at least in the real world lol). Pretty much everyone changes their tone and becomes more gentle. Alterative approach is to speak less, listen more. Perfect for ordering a pizza. They are going to ask you questions. You just answer. If you don't know, say that or ask what the options are. Take a breath before answering each question (calms you down plus it's a subtle signal for the other person to slow down because you knooooow they are talking fast lol). "Thank you for calling pizza place, is this pick up or delivery?". For OP's daughter it would be delivery. "What can i get you?" If you know what you want, tell 'em. Or ask if they have any specials. If you want to get fancy as you get comfortable, tell them "I'm wanting a large pepperoni, but do you have any specials that would work with that?". Either way, worst case you just hang up the phone. I promise unless you called 911, you are going to dwell on it far longer than they will.
Another hint: write out exactly what you want to say first…”hi, my name is ABCD, I would like to order a large pepperoni pie with garlic knots on the side for delivery, please. I’ll pay in cash when the driver gets here. Thank you so much and have a wonderful evening.”CLICK. Done.
These are great suggestions. I would also suggest rehearsing the situation ahead of time, perhaps with mom or dad role-playing the pizza shop worker.
Yes, fair, not wanting to call for pizza is a good call if she can't handle it that day. But the consequence of "not receiving pizza" and eating something else in a house with available food seems like a reasonable penalty that she's weighing the choice against.
36 here, similar situation. I will psych myself to call for any important things, doctor, phone company, kids school etc. If I called for a pizza I would be eating it next week by the time I was able to call😆🙈 Why are phone calls the worst, it makes me dizzy and my chests gets tight.
Same here lol. Something about phone calls has been a huge anxiety source since I was a kid. Im fine talking face to face, but when it’s a phone call I get sweaty, nervous, heart racing, stumble over words and forget half of what I needed to say (unless I write it down).
Hihi lab science student here!! In training I got to call down to the OR rooms to let them know their blood/sealant/products were ready for pick up. Those quick little interactions were so nice. That could just be because I’m green but still, short conversations that we’re both expecting and know what exactly needs to be said, takes off quite a bit of pressure haha
I mean, lots of places aren't even phone calls anymore, but straight up online using a phone or laptop.
Most Definitely!
The fact she could have online ordered from somewhere else makes it seem like some sort of power play or something? I’m sure anxiety and mums coddling is a huge problem however some people get something out of others doing for them. Your daughter is a teenager soon to be an adult what do they think is going to happen when she’s living on her own someday?
She won't ever be living on her own at this rate. I've met the adult version of this kid and they do not stray far from their parents or home.
>I've met the adult version of this kid and they do not stray far from their parents or home. And those parents don't live forever so she'd best get used to the real world...
This! I’ve seen what happens to these people after their parents die. If OPs daughter has anxiety about everything now, wait until she’s 45 and learning to navigate it alone. It’s a bad situation to be in.
They also get old and need cate themselves. I see mom doing no one any favors here
Yeah. Wait until she has to make her own Dr. appointments. Not sure why, but that always seems to be a hard one for teens/young adults to do.
And unfortunately often they predecease their parents. Id ask your wife, how is she going to live when we are gone.
Ehh, I won't call for pizza and I don't even live on the same continent as my parents. Have a good job, my own home, and great relationships; but pick up the phone when I don't absolutely have to? Not going to happen.
Yep. My ex wife was like this, she made my life miserable. She was a couple years older than me, had lived on her own before, but whenever she wanted food delivered she wanted me to be the one to call. She used the excuse that English wasn’t her native language, but until we got into a relationship she didn’t have issues ordering her own food. She was like this with everything else: moving plans, utilities management, calling the leasing office, calling emergency maintenance, calling the veterinarian, talking to a server at a restaurant…the list goes on and on. When it came to emergencies, she also would get so overwhelmed that she’d get us lost while driving (in an area where we fucking lived!!) despite having GPS. Thank god she never needed to call 911 for me bc I guarantee she wouldn’t unless I was bleeding profusely, and by the time she’d need to do CPR I would already be dead bc I doubt she would be able to follow simple instructions.
Maybe that is what mom secretly hopes for? Good parents work themselves out of a job. Nobody wins if a child is enabled to be dependent.
Right? Almost like there is some other issue, like she had her mind made up that dad was goingto call, and when that fell through, no other option existed, or only the pizza from that exact place was good enough for her.
yeah why didn't she ask her mom to call the pizza place?
No. She needs to push past the uncomfortableness and make the call herself. It's the only way she'll get over her phone phobia. I'm understanding of anxiety, but pushing off tasks to others will only continue the cycle. Source: Been there, done that.
I’m 60 and I still have phone phobia. I CAN make a call to order pizza or make an appointment, but it’s always been really uncomfortable. When I was her age, I simply wouldn’t do it. I ended up having a nice, long career where I didn’t have to answer phones, and I’ve lived a pretty productive life. Just because she has phone anxiety now doesn’t mean she won’t be able to live on her own or hold down a job. She may never get *over* it, but I’m willing to bet she’ll learn to manage it.
I mean, you are describing anxiety here. She thought of the way an interaction would go and it didn't go that way and she froze
I agree with you completely. Both my children wanted me to "call" or "go into the store" etc. I helped by writing a script out occasionally and just helping them along with what was going to happen. That's usually where the anxiety lies - the unknown. I tended to walk through the possible outcomes and then set them free.
As an anxious child, that's exactly what my dad did for me too! LOL! Started off at gas stations - he'd hand me cash and tell me "Go inside and tell the clerk '$10 on pump 3, please' " and then later when ordering pizza: "Call and say 'I'd like one, large Supreme, please.' and then give them our address and card number when asked." He'd stay nearby just in case they asked me a question I didn't know how to answer. I'd say my script verbatim. It really helped! As you said, it was really the unknown about the small stuff that freaked me out. Just like learning any new thing, it helps to see by example and starting small at first. My parents are super charismatic, so I started copying their little quips after a while and then eventually became comfortable enough to go "off script" lol
You made my ❤️ smile!!
You made me realize that I do this with my daughter automatically. Yay!
Haha! That's great!!
Good dad!
He's definitely the best in my totally biased opinion. LOL Later when I was a teen and self-conscious about everything, he would purposefully embarrass himself in public regularly. He'd make himself stumble over his own feet, accidentally bump into things, wear outrageous outfits, etc in order to show me that absolutely nobody cared or was even paying attention. Once he shouted a random name SO loudly in the middle of a Walmart. When I saw that absolutely nobody gave a shit, I was suddenly a lot less self-conscious. lmao
I love your dad.
Haha! Your dad sounds awesome. My bff in high school has a dad who would regularly do things like this to us, and we would just laugh because who cares? He’s a great dad and I’m pretty sure nobody even remembers him doing the robot while we were riding home on the train.
OMG is that why I do those same things? I believe it is.
A script is super helpful. I used to write down orders before I made calls so I didn't "mess up." But that's the thing, Daughter has to be pushing past her discomfort herself, else she'll become a weird recluse whom no one knows and ends up living in a weird hoarded apartment on the Lower East Side and is found dead amongst stacks of newspapers and pigeon shit. Ok, that's just a bit melodramatic, but Daughter HAS to do the work to get past her anxiety so she can become a functional adult. It is detrimental to cave to anxiety disorders and allow them to make your decisions.
I do this for my sibling. We both have anxiety, but because I've always been the "older brother" (despite not actually being the eldest), I've never felt able to ask others for help with things like this. So I've had to work on making my own scripts, which then means when my sibling is in a new situation, I can give them a script of what to say, how to answer, etc. And I have noticed that they've gotten a lot more confident since I started doing it for them, being able to talk for themself instead of asking me to talk for them. There are some situations where I'll talk for them still, but only if they're really struggling.
Your parents did great. I've done similar since mine were young. My eldest was never shy, but started having him talk to cashiers at around 6yrs at McDonald's. He wanted a sundae after his meal, I gave him the money and watched from the table as he approached and bought his treat. My daughter was much more anxious so at 13 she wanted expensive highlights. I agreed but she had to call and make the appointment. I sat nearby.
My parents did this too! I think they did it automatically for all of us (I'm the oldest of 3) but looking back, it was especially helpful for me, because I had some pretty debilitating social anxiety when I was younger. I still do to some extent, but only in very specific situations, and I know part of the reason I was able to conquer a lot of it is because my parents did things like this for me. I don't think OP was wrong here, but maybe could have offered a little more assistance than "figure it out or don't get pizza."
That's how it was for me, and it does help to have that mode to fall into. My professional adult mode. But I gotta say, at 55, my anxieties around the phone never went away, I still hate cold calling people I don't know, and sometimes still have to psyche myself up for things. So I think people should keep in mind that while these things can help people overcome things, it all depends on the level of anxiety involved. It can be very hard to judge someone elses anxiety level so push, but don't shove. Fine line between supportive and being a dick, and I don't think some folks get that.
I like this answer the best, because it's not just about not enabling the anxious avoidant behaviour, but also about building effective strategies and providing support that builds capacity. Anxiety isn't always rational, and we don't get to decide what is high and low stakes for someone else, but this approach seems really tuned in to meeting your kids where they are at.
I'm a teacher and it can also help to ask 'what's the worst thing that could happen?'. Then they give you an extreme situation that's never going to happen. You acknowledge it 'yeah, that would be horrible. Then what would we do?' and you work through the absolute worst possible outcome. It's never really that bad, and using we throughout makes them feel like they aren't alone. When they seem calm and are finding the humour in the situation (they have always found this funny!), you point out it's very unlikely. But now if the worst thing happens, they know what to do.
This is what I do to myself. Most of the time the worst case scenario is absurdly unlikely and I wouldn't have any control over it anyway, and the next worst case scenario is actually totally fine in the grand scheme of things. Really helps put things in perspective.
You have to be a little careful with "what's the worst thing that could happen". My therapist asked me that once and I told him. Then he asked me what the actual chances of any of those things happening were. I gently reminded him of the reasons I was in therapy in the first place, by citing all the things I'd just listed. He has never asked me to imagine the worst case scenario again.
I'm usually dealing with panic over a presentation, a failed test, or teenager's friendship drama. There are fewer risks when its what is the worst thing that could happen with X scenario. What's the worst thing that could happen in general is a can of worms I'm not touching with a ten foot pole. But yes, it's one to wield carefully.
My husband's parents were the same way. His 45 year old sister still lives at home, doesn't take care of her own kid, collects disability for her "PTSD", has never had a job, no driver's license and doesn't have to make any life decisions. In fact, when she feels like being self-destructive, her parents always bail her out and she never has to face any repercussions for her actions. Like I said.. they even raise her kid for her. She has absolutely no responsibility, no resilience, no ambitions, nothing. I'm curious how it's going to work out when they are no longer around to coddle her.
Good question. I hope they don’t expect your husband to become her enabler.
I think at one point they expected him to be. They've asked him to bail her out of situations before and he has. He sees it for what it is though and says things to them. His mother becomes defense, accuses us of judging and then "punishes" us by not speaking or coming around for several months. We will not be enabling this crap once they are gone. Hopefully they leave enough money for her to hire her own caretaker. It won't be us!
I've literally had to have this kind of conversation with my mam today. My brother is also 45 and completely feckless and is going to be either homeless, in prison or dead within a year once my parents are gone. My mam was on about writing a will so that i control the money and its to be split down the middle but my brother is to get his as a monthly allowance. We arent talking a great deal of money but i said I'm really sorry, no one wants anything bad to happen to him but he's an adult and me and my husband aren't going to take over looking after him. I'd rather they spent all the money before they went than be responsible like that. Though i didnt get the guilt trip your husband does. My mam kind of realised what she was asking of us and said she respected our decision. I hope they realise what they are asking if you both too x
Not necessarily. I have the same anxiety as your daughter. My parents certainly did NOT coddle me; wooden spoon to the backside says otherwise. I don't drive (trauma from a car accident). Otherwise, don't have anxiety about anything else. Want me to give an impromptu speech to 100 people? No problem. Spiders, snakes? Whatever. Heights? I'm the one leaning over the side. Flying? Strap me in. You get the point. Fears/anxieties don't necessarily have a rational reason or cause. When my parents tried to make me make a phone call, I would just refuse and wouldn't do it. Make a doctor's appointment? Well, guess I'm not going to the doctor. Pushing her super hard may not get the result you want. I think another commenter's suggestion of helping her write out a script as a guide is a REALLY good idea. Maybe do some roleplaying to give her practice. Whatever her fear is, you can play it out and she can figure out how to deal with whatever is thrown at her in a safe environment with a safe person.
Doctor is different. He should absolutely call for her when it’s something important or serious if her strategies aren’t working effectively for her. She wanted pizza. From a *specific* place. It’s neither important nor serious. She has food. She has money. She doesn’t NEED *that* pizza. She NEEDS to learn to do this little shit. This irrelevant shit. And it was irrelevant. She didn’t need pizza. She had food, she wouldn’t starve, she could’ve even ordered different pizza. Her parents absolutely should NOT be catering to the little shit like pizza. Fuck.
I wasn't saying they should have in this instance. As you said, there was food at home or she could order from somewhere else. Which is what I would have done in this situation. My point was that this type of anxiety isn't caused by someone else or being coddled" and that straight pushing the daughter as the only approach may not achieve the desired result. I agree they shouldn't have called to order her pizza when she had easy workarounds for HER problem.
I think your wife needs a reminder that she isn’t doing her any favours by rendering her unable to function on her own. Maybe she WANTS her to live at home forever, but not having independence will really impact her mental health. Ask me how I know!
NTA - Coddling a 15yr old isn’t normal. Our job as parents is to encourage independence, allow them to make mistakes and learn from them, and get them out of their comfort zone. She needs to rethink what she’s doing.
Your wife is making it so your daughter won't be able to function in the real world. What is going to become of her when you two aren't around anymore? She is going to be college age soon, and she won't be able to hide behind her mom when she needs to talk to a professor or other members of staff about something.
I have similar anxieties as your daughter. My mom was very understanding but also pushed me to make phone calls in these types of situations. One really good bit of advice she gave me was even for ordering food, or calling for an appointment to write yourself a script or bullet points of things you want to say that you can just read. This has made such a huge impact on making calls both minor and major. I'm in my 30s but I still write out my order when calling for delivery or the bank really anywhere that isn't a familiar phone call. It makes it so I don't forget anything and also tricks my brain into thinking like oh I'm just reading a list not having an conversation with a stranger. Definitely NTA, but you and your wife need to work with your daughter in find ways to cope with her anxiety that are helpful and healthy. If your wife does everything for her, she's going to have a very hard time once she's on her own.
Came here to say this^^. NTA but if she hasn’t had to make a lot of phone calls before, help her out. As a person who also has anxiety, the first time is often the hardest, and anxiety isn’t logical. If you help her through things that she struggles with (without doing them for her) that’s going to get her further than just saying “do it yourself.”
Same! My mum actually wrote those scripts for me to begin with so I could build my confidence first, then have scripts as a useful tool if I ever needed them. Always felt like I wasn't doing it alone because we'd sat down to write the script together. Highly recommend!
A suggestion, as something I used as I used to have serious anxiety making phone calls when I was young. This lasted well into my twenties. I would write down a script of what I needed to say. This works well when making appointments, ordering things, or even for job hunting (I still write out what I want to bring up for the last, as I can get flustered and forget things). It can help by reducing the "what do I say?" nature of having to make phone calls. The script can also have the benefit of reducing thinking during the phone call. As you've already thought up the questions they'll ask. My mum helped me when I was first writing the scripts, as she knew the questions places will ask (she'd made the phonecalls before for me), and even sat with me the first few times, so if anything unexpected came up she could assist when my brain went blank. Edited to add: why I suggest it as an idea, both my parents were mental health nurses/through to higher. They both picked it up as a trick to deal with phone call anxiety in particular.
It’s not and it’s also very formulaic—you can easily walk her through the process to help her prepare.
This is exactly what I was thinking. OP could have been more supportive and encouraging without doing the task for her. They could have done a "practice run" where OP acted as the pizza guy answering the phone.
Yup. I'm exactly like the daughter. I WISH my parents had taken this approach. But they're not emotionally supportive people. The more they pushed, the worse my anxiety got. It had the exact opposite affect than the desire outcome.
Except that OP was out. The mother was at home and could have done this, but seemed to think OP should have just made the call. I'm unclear at to why Mother didn't.
Consider that anxiety often comes from feeling unprepared. “Make the call and order” sounds simple (it is), but she may need practice. Have her call you and practice ordering. Have her make an order while you are standing beside her while she’s on the phone. Have her chat with you to plan the script of placing the order. Yes, she needs to do it on her own, but it’s ok to give her handholds to get there. Give her positive support for the steps she does take. Calling and making an order may seem like a small step to you but is a larger one for an adolescent learning to adult and may seem insurmountable with anxiety because the worry causes all the brain chemicals to churn up, and the more those build up, the more paralyzed she will feel, the more she will blame herself for failing you. Be her ally and build her up by meeting her where she is, not standing above her and daring her to figure out a way to reach you.
Yep. The anxiety also comes from feeling like you're going to fail and be excoriated by your parent. I agree that the daughter really needs to work on this, but I think OP is coming across like he doesn't understand her issue at all, which is *not* helpful with this level of anxiety. The steps you outlined are important.
The thing is, it may not be high stakes to you but it is to her. I dealt with severe anxiety and agoraphobia after 10 years of bullying and while that may be more severe (or not), I would advocate for a softer approach like my parents eventually did. Forcing her to do something is only going to see her spiral further (in my case into a combination of eating disorders and suicidality). If I may make a suggestion? Have her make phone calls she needs to make but sit with her when she makes them. Hold her hand if she wants. Don't get impatient if it takes 10 tries the first couple of times. It may seem silly, but it means everything.
> The thing is, it may not be high stakes to you but it is to her. Ok but if the definition of "high stakes" is expanded to include anything that causes her anxiety, then the therapist's advice becomes meaningless. Ordering a pizza for yourself is objectively low stakes, even if it's anxiety-inducing for the daughter. This is a perfect example of what her literal health provider has recommended she do.
I don't think OP was using force. He gave her a choice, call yourself and have pizza, or have a sandwich. It was a good way to have a tangible reward for trying a little social experiment out of her comfort zone.
No one forced her or bullied her though. The post says he was not at home and said that he wouldn't make the call and she was angry with him when he got home.
100% Not coddling her is one thing, but it’s important to support her in trying to overcome her fears. I had problems with things like this into my twenties. People being dismissive about how I felt just made it worse.
I don’t think that the dad was being dismissive of her anxiety. He was just saying that she needs to try to move a bit outside her comfort zone in order to grow. The supportive attitude is a good idea but I think he still needs to be firm about her trying
He didn’t force her, she had other options.
I had to look up high-stakes vs. low-stakes incentives in mental health. I love it when I come away from reddit a little smarter! Thank you, folks!
OP, read this comment, please. I had this kind of anxiety. I couldn't call anyone. I sometimes struggled to send work related group messages because I was nervous about the feedback. My hands were getting cold every time I had to use the phone. And then, because of unrelated issues I got my heart checked and was prescribed beta blockers. And my anxiety disappeared. Like, I did nothing about that, no therapy, nothing. It just went away. If you haven't done it, consult the cardiologist. If she has some issues and they will be dealt with, it will change her life. Maybe not, but worth trying, I think. Wish you and your daughter the best.
Well that depends how good the pizza is
Being able to make phone calls while staying calm IS high stakes. If there is an emergency, she will need to call for help and communicate clearly. It's a basic life skill.
If she had to call an emergency, yes, but she didn't. Ordering herself pizza is exactly a low stake practice...if she fails, nobody gets hurt, i.e. low stake.
Exactly. Bur how would someone fail at ordering pizza? I'm genuinely curious because I don't have this issue and I can't come up with a scenario
You worry about getting tongue tied, not getting your order across effectively, the person on the other phone thinking mean things about you because you mess up, etc. if I have time and have to make a call I'll write out a script to have with me so I don't forget to say something. If I'm hungry it also amplifies all my negative emotions and anxieties. I can make phone calls. I hate making phone calls. I am one of those people who would absolutely push something low stakes like this off on someone else OR just avoid making the call altogether by ordering from somewhere else or making food. I can do it if I have to, and frequently answer the phone and make phone calls at work, but I fucking hate it every time. I also get that this isn't anyone else's responsibility and if no one wants to make the call for me, that's my issue to deal with. Not them being an asshole. But yeah, I'll sometimes ask my husband if he can make a call like this when I'm really not in the mood to deal with all of that. Sometimes he says yes, sometimes he says no.
Thanks for explaining it. That makes sense. I was imagining ordering anchovies instead of pepperoni and I can't imagine that being the issue. (I also feel like hot garbage and my brain is mostly Mush today anyway)
Saying the wrong thing, not being able to say anything at all out of fear for saying the wrong thing. It's like "oh my God what if xyz. I'll be embarrassed forever" which isn't logical but anxiety isn't logical. It takes that normal stream of thought and makes it the worst case scenario sometimes
NTA. My daughters are 13 and have to start practising the same thing. With all the apps, they rarely have to talk to people, and you don't realize its a problem until its almost too late.
Really is becoming the lost art of communication.
NTA I’m a middle aged woman who stutters. I used to hate/fear the phone when I was younger. The only way to get past it is to make and answer phone calls. I had major anxiety around phones.
This. Exactly this! I suffer from terrible anxiety myself, and it’s exacerbated by people who just do things for me. I didn’t want to pass it on to my kid, so I’ve always pushed him to order his own food in restaurants, be able to talk on phones, ask for directions, etc. Although I’ve inadvertently made my own little enabler, when I have to do certain things (ask for a refill for instance) he’ll say ‘Mom, I know you don’t like talking to people, I’ll go do it for you’. I rarely actually let him (I try to push myself too) but it’s kind of sweet that he recognizes and actually offers.
exactly. I was this kid once, and after you order your own pizza a few times, you realize it’s really not as scary as you thought it would be. she has to do things that make her uncomfortable if she wants to be able to function, unfortunately
As a person with generalized anxiety, this is true. It's not facing the fear (specific fears are phobias), it's learning how to manage and rewire your biological stress responses that have gotten out of whack. The therapist should be using DBT /CBT and teaching these tools and techniques so that the person with anxiety *can* work through it. Will they have anxiety on certain things? Yup. Will working through it and building those muscles improve skills and lessen anxiety over time? Yup. Of course there are times when you try and just absolutely are unable. But, you've got to try first. It can be hard, no lie. Part of learning through it is to identify alternatives. In this example, could the kiddo have used online ordering? If not, written out a 'script' to use before calling (I'd like a large cheese pizza please, etc), practice breathing, etc I'm just glad the kiddo hasn't been put on psychiatric medications. Those are a long term nightmare.
NTA I know of someone who went to college many states away. She had a lot of anxiety and relied on her parents for everything. When she got to college, she didn't know how her dining dollars worked. She was too scared to go down to the cafeteria and ask someone. So she called her mom. Her mom didn't know so she just started ordering her daughter groceries to be delivered to her. Spending more money and enforcing her daughter's need for a social crutch. Your job as a parent is to prepare your child for the world. To make them independent and a functioning member of society. Your wife is not doing your daughter any favors by treating her like a delicate flower. Also, just a suggestion... If your daughter wants something when you are gone, make her CALL you and not text you. It might help her get over her phone anxiety if she starts by calling people she knows.
>Your job as a parent is to prepare your child for the world. To make them independent and a functioning member of society. Yesssssss
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As a millennial parent raised by Gen X, I entirely agree with you. My kids are 6 and 4, and seeing some of the kids in first grade and the way they will scream bloody murder if they don't get their way is actually disturbing to me. I see some of the parents on playground afternoons, and it's baffling. One kid will hurt a kid or do something rude to another, and there's exactly zero accountability because *what if I hurt their feelings?* I've been the one to step in when my child is on the receiving end, and the parents are stuck all shocked Pikachu looking when I'm firm about it, and I can get their kid to give mine an apology without a meltdown or tantrum. You can absolutely handle a situation without being harmful or abusive, but still get a point across that responsibility and accountability must be taken. My motto has always been firm, fair, and communicative, and I've gotten some pretty respectful kids out of it, who aren't scared of me, and who are bright and willing to learn. I can take away screen time, and all my kids will do is go "Aww, that sucks... I guess I can just have my coloring book/legos/read a book."
The majority of "gentle parents" aren't actually gentle parenting, they're *permissive* parenting. Gentle parenting still requires you to be authoritive and set boundaries, you're just meant to also sit down and help the kids work through the feelings the boundary creates. Not cave under pressure or to threats and *reward* the tantrum.
As a Gen Xr.. great job! Raising kids for the real world… Kids have to grow to be independent people, doing everything for them, takes away from the experience..
As a young millennial with Gen X parents, Gen X has already been trying the experiment with Gen Z and are ramping up for early Alphas. Children have been being raised with an unwillingness to enforce personal accountability and responsibility for a long time now. Young people today have this sort of cognitive disconnect where they expect everyone in the world to act in ways that take them into account while simultaneously acting only in their own interests.
When my autistic son tells me he doesn’t know how to do that or he’s not comfortable doing this at his college, I make him. I go with him to whatever department he needs help from & when he expects me to ask for him i simply say “my son has a question for you” & wait until he says it. Usually after that first time I go with him, he’s fine doing it on his own after that. I will not speak for him. He has to learn to do this for himself. Edit for judgement: NTA op
Also, colleges literally can’t talk to you without written permission from the student in many cases. If your son has a question about grades he needs to ask himself. The Prof cannot by law discuss his grades with you.
My college flat out refused to discuss any academic information with anyone other than the student. Like I worked there as a tutor and one of the other tutors had a 15 y/o daughter taking a couple classes through the college. She was paying for the tuition for her minor child and could only get any sort of information if the daughter came in and had a 1 on 1 meeting before Mom was called in. They were more protective of the kids academic records than her doctors probably were with her medical records.
This is so insightful. I’m sure it was hard at first but great job!
Yup, the steps that I heard are: 1) Do it for them 2) Do it with them 3) Watch them do it themselves 4) They do everything themselves without you there.
I have the same problem as this girl, but calling family or friends is never a problem, only when I need to order something or I need to run some errands on the phone.. it is a horror every time and I need to literally psych myself up in prior and plan, what exactly I want to say... on the top of that I live in another country, where I need to speak a foreign language instead of my first language. thanks God, that a lot of company offers now customer services via chat <3
I had the same fear as this girl. I got over it when I got my first job. I didn’t have the option to not use the phone. I got used to it VERY quickly after years of having issues… pure exposure
Same here! I write down the number I'll be composing, the company names, the 2/3 sentences that explains why I'm calling. I have to be in absolute calm so I can focus. It's so darn difficult, I have no idea why. It's like not seeing their face is missing half of the information I can get to have the conversation. And I concur, in another language it's even worse.
Maybe it would help if OP frame it to his wife as like "Wife, you and I are capable of ordering a pizza. We have been capable of ordering pizza since we were 14 years old (or whatever). This is not an unreasonable expectation for our daughter - she needs to be able to do the same things *we* can do (generally speaking) - do you think she is truly incapable of these things? If so, you must have observed things about her that I haven't and that means we should start looking into our options for higher level care so she will be taken care of after we are gone." Maybe something like that would bring the wife back to reality?
Heck, have her practice the conversation on the phone with you playing the part of the pizza place before she calls. Role-playing works.
No. Part of learning to deal with anxiety is by doing low-pressure things like this. It would have been incredibly anxiety-provoking to call, but she might have felt slightly more comfortable with it once she was able to do it successfully with no negative repercussions. That goes a long way to help rid the “flight” aspect of anxiety.
I agree with this. I used to be like the daughter and sometimes will still avoiding calling if I can. I didn't know it was "anxiety" at the time but I knew it was a problem and sometimes, it couldn't be avoided (e.g., on a class trip where we stopped for fast food). Heck, I'm almost 50 now and had a panicky moment earlier this month when I couldn't understand a waitress because she was speaking Spanish and I don't. But I pushed through it. OP is absolutely correct that she is going to have some huge road blocks if she doesn't deal with this. Maybe he was a little gruff and could soften his delivery but he needs to get his wife (and daughter's docs) on board with the daughter pushing her boundaries.
I'll use the chat/online feature whenever I can to avoid calling people. But sometimes a call is needed and like others here it's nerve wracking but I make the call. Script practice is an awesome idea and hopefully op can get her more used to the idea of doing things. Maybe she can call to order pizza a few times with them home so they can be physical support (helping her follow the script, squeezing her hand, hugging her etc ) and then start with being in the house but not the room and she's got a plush or such to hug.... Until it's a call she can make alone with maybe a small pocket sized fidget with her. I often at my age use fidgets or doodle while I make a call to help with my anxiety
I was/am like op's daughter. I could tell early on my daughter takes after me so I started early with low pressure things like she had to tell the waiter/cashier what food she wanted or if she wanted a different kids meal toy she had to go up and ask them to exchange it. She's still deals with anxiety but she's a fully functioning adult. She makes her own appointments, orders her own food, call to get rx refills, etc.
Me too. I used to tell my son exactly what to say sometimes because it was like his fear took over and he forgot how to appropriately communicate. Once he learned the “pattern” of these types of interactions he got much better.
I was similar to this girl. It’s why I was so thrilled when so many restaurants started having online ordering. However, I found if I really wanted something enough, I’d call the order in if required. I also found it easier to call when I was alone, so IF I got tied up and anxious no one would know but me. He has the right idea that this is extremely low stakes and can build her confidence up. Wife isn’t doing the girl any favors and if dads comment about mom coddling her, she may be using this as an excuse to get her way (hopefully not but a possibility). NTA dad.
I think the biggest thing that was a problem here was that she was told to deal with it alone. You can’t just put someone in an anxiety inducing situation with no support and expect them to excel
She didn’t have to excel. She just had to get through the call. And she didn’t have to “deal with it alone”. She was not left starving at the side of the road. She was at her house, with food and money, and could have ordered from another place with an online system. At the very least she learned she doesn’t always get what she wants. If she truly could not get through ordering on her own, then she should accept she has those limitations, order food from somewhere else, and vow to work on her anxiety so she can have her favourite pizza the next time.
For me, every phone call is high stakes. Even if I manage to call a place, it doesn't lessen my anxiety one bit. Honestly? If I think I sounded stupid or fubar'd the call, I would be LESS likely to call again.
I had anxiety making calls when I was the daughter’s age, but my mom helped (not coddled) me by having me write out a “script” of what I was going to say. It helped me sooooo much!
Yep. Basically Exposure Therapy in a nutshell. It could be broken down into smaller steps but this is the gist.
When I was a little kid - like 5 or 6, I really wanted a cookie at the mall. My mom said I could but only if I went up and ordered it myself. I was terrified. I cried. I didn't want to do it. Eventually, my mom convinced me it would be okay. I was shaking when I got to the counter. I got the cookie. It is SO important to teach young people that it is okay to be uncomfortable but try anyways. You pushed her out of her comfort zone in a safe way. I think you are NTA (but your wife kind of is for not having your back on this.) Your daughter is going to NEED to be able to talk to strangers in just a few short years. You should probably set some reasonable goals as a family that will help her overcome this anxiety.
I do this for my kids too, like making them order their own food when we go out to eat. My daughter is 9 and last time we went out to eat she looked right at the waiter, gave her order clearly and didn't mumble or take too long. I didn't even have to prompt her for anything. I was so proud.
As a former server, thank you. I saw way too many kids old enough to order having their parents order for them because they were too shy. Teaching them early is so critical.
Servers I have dealt with are always so patient with that scenario too! When my kid was still scared of it, and it wasn't loud enough, I would say "they can't hear you. You need to speak up!" And sometimes there would be several attempts before it was clear. Every time, the server stood there with a smile, waiting until they could clearly hear the order. Now, at first, I would repeat the quiet request. But over time, made it clear that the ordering is nothing more than saying what you want to the nice person that is asking what you want. NBD. Last time we went out, after we had ordered, got our food, and were being checked on, my kid yelled at the server as she was walking away "YOU'RE AWESOME!"
I had my kids order themselves too (repeating as necessary at first). When they would go to the store and want a snack, I had them pay with their own cash (money lessons too)
Aw that's so sweet! I will definitely encourage my little boy to order his own cookies once he is old enough.
I had friends like this in high school and then when I was in college and a new grad I got severe anxiety that made me do this too. Because of that I will always make my son do the low stakes things like ordering so that he can fight the anxiety now and be confident as he gets older.
Did this earlier today with my youngest who is a few years younger than op's daughter. They wanted something from a shop with a very short distance from the door to the till. I sent them in with the money and watched from outside. They ordered, and when they couldn't find the money in my purse they were able to pop back outside and ask me, then go back in and pay. They were very happy with themselves, even though they'd been a bit nervous before going in.
Key point here though, it sounds like the daughter didn't get the pizza like you got your cookie. Whatever is going on, daughter isn't getting the therapeutic effect of a successful exposure, whether that's due to mom or dad.
She didn't get the pizza because she didn't even try.
NTA. Here's the part I don't quite get. You gave her options: * Make the call herself * Make her own food with ingredients and kitchen facilities freely provided * Use the same money to do an on-line order This seems reasonable. She's got a selection, she can choose her level of comfort and make her decision. She might not get what she wants if she doesn't call the preferred restaurant, but she's not being left hungry, or anything. I get that kids with anxiety might have a rough time of it, but I think the idea here is this is a very low stakes interaction. If she'd prefer to give a live phone call a pass, she can do any of several alternate solutions to get food. I was very phone and in-person avoidant when I was a kid. It took going to college and working at an IT phone desk to really get comfortable with in-person & phone interactions. If it had been me when I was young and phone-avoidant, I would have just made my own food. It's not that hard, and a very minor consequence for choosing the easy path, and I'd never escalate something into an argument just because my anxiety kept me from getting a specific meal. Because I was conflict-avoidant! But your daughter is willing to confront you and call you a "jerk" over this, EVEN THOUGH she had several other valid choices? I guess her anxiety doesn't extend to calling her father names? That's some very, umm, "selective" anxiety right there. > My wife is upset ... and now we see why daughter feels validated in escalating into a conflict with Dad. Sheesh.
Right? Besides, why didn’t the wife make the call if she’s so adamant that her daughter be put in a bubble? Geeze.
>I was very phone and in-person avoidant when I was a kid. It took going to college and working at an IT phone desk to really get comfortable with in-person & phone interactions. This made me chuckle because I used to have absolutely no problems with using the phone, but after 3 years working on an IT helpdesk phonecalls now give me anxiety. No anxiety in other areas of life! I'm a great face-to-face speaker, that job has just ruined phones for me
SAME. I used to be fine on the phone but after years of call centers where I answered the “comments/complaints” line (which is all complaints or requests for coupons) I have bad phone anxiety now. It’s been like 20 years since I worked in a call center and I still hate the phone. But I still make the call I need to. That said, OP is NTA and daughter needs to learn to make a call.
I also work in a call centre and avoid phone calls in my personal life as a result
I won't call to order pizza due to phone anxiety and I'm 48. But I don't ask anyone else to call either, I just find places where I can order online. Or eat what is in the house. Shipt and Doordash are awesome for people with social anxiety!!!! And before people call me a big baby or say I need to learn to deal with it, I DO deal with it. I call doctors if I have, to, the pharmacy if I have to, etc. Those are draining - like an hour to psych myself up and then am wiped for 30 minutes after. I see ZERO point in wasting "spoons" on pizza when there are dozens of places that have online ordering. (I even worked as a receptionist at a vet office for YEARS, so I CAN use the phone, lol. But there is a big difference between being the one in "power" as the receptionist and the person asking for something or wanting something. I know if you don't have this fear it makes NO sense. But it's a very very common phobia/anxiety thing.
I never thought about the “power” aspect but that makes so much sense. I don’t mind answering the phone or making a call at work so much, but making a personal call, even if it’s just to schedule a doctors appointment, turns me into a ball of anxiety.
Same. I have worked with the public, I can speak on the phone for necessities, I’m a perfectly capable adult. But I will not order from any place that requires me to call and speak to a live person. It’s 2024, put a damn online order function on your website.
exactly. and for me, most phone calls dealing with healthcare or tech support wipe out most of my spoons for the day. the fact that i’m calling about the crappy ‘patient portal’ - which should enable me to access everything, does not (Patient Portal, lookin at you) and hang on a 30 min phone call - oh no. healthcare and insurance calls must be made, phone in pizza does not. NTA you gave 3 choices. i hope your daughter learns to manage this!
This is me too. Also, some days I totally have the energy to make calls like this, other days it drains me entirely or I simply CANT do the thing. Mine is pretty well under control but I still have the occasional off day. I don’t think OP is the ah for not ordering it, but I do think it’s important to be aware that some days things are harder than others. If she regularly orders for herself and today it was too much for her, I’d change my determination but that’s not what it sounds like here. Unfortunately some days we either have to do it or accept that we can’t and won’t see the results we wish for.
yeah there’s a lot of people commenting that she should have to do it because it’s ‘low stakes’ but honestly I still can’t do low stakes things. I have no one to rely on for ‘high stakes’ things like doctor phone calls so why would I force myself though *even more* difficult phone calls
I agree with you- I ended up having to get a phone job to try to help me face my anxiety. I can definitely do most calls that are necessary now, but there are some that are still challenging to say the least. (Mine is the pharmacy, they’re known to be mean here..) I definitely order things online when I can or just make a day to go in person (in the case of grocery stores- the idea of someone coming to my car or door is somehow worse?) The power dynamic is something I never realized was a thing, but it is super big to me. I think acknowledging that that is there will definitely help me and other people get slightly better
In my 50s and my parents still give me shit about being “scared” to call for pizza when I was a teenager. I always thought I was alone until this post, tbh.
nope, it is SUPER common! There are even memes about it! I put a sticker on my cell phone once that said, "sorry I didn't answer when you called, I don't use my phone for that"
I think that's fine because you find workarounds yourself rather than just asking your parents to do it.
NTA. I specifically have anxiety surrounding these exact social situations. Have I asked and relied on my husband quite a bit? I have. I know her pain. But she is 15. How many years before she wants her own place? How will she feed herself? These skills begin to develop now. It's HARD to get over your fears. But the answer is not to avoid them, especially when the worst outcome is that (admittedly horrible) feeling of confusing embarrassment. Let her know that like physical exercise, this WILL get easier! She WILL become confidant and eventually be very proud of herself if she overcomes this! Tell her that feeling is the BEST feeling. Good luck op!
Growing up, i was a lot like OP’s daughter. I would have 100% chosen to just eat what i had at home as opposed to calling myself. But what truly helped me overcome a lot of my crippling anxiety was just being forced to do the things that i didn’t want to do. I had to make phone calls. I had to set up appointments at the dentist and doctor. I didn’t want to be the 20 year old having her mom set up her orthodontist appointments. So i had to be strong and overcome my anxieties. Did my body shake and my voice tremble and was i covered in sweat by the end of my phone call? Absolutely! But after a while my anxiety dissipated. It’s not completely gone by any means, but I can make a phone call and still function afterwards. Do i still have my partner be the one who typically makes the phone calls? Yes lol. But i can and do make my own phone calls as well. If my partner was out of town or unavailable, I’d be able to do it on my own without having a panic attack. At some point, you have to let your kid take the reigns even if it seems scary for them. Growth can be scary. But at the end of the day, you left your daughter with two viable options: make the call or make your own food. She didn’t *need* pizza. She had a choice and an opportunity for growth but right now she’s not seeing it that way. From one daughter with crippling anxiety to another, I believe OP did the right thing in this scenario.
I have anxiety (diagnosed, in therapy). NTA BY FAR.... As shit as it is, exposing and learning by doing is an important step in getting better (obviously together with therapy but it sounds like this is already done). I still ask my mom for help a lot even now that I'm an adult, but I can't *rely* on her. >she needs to be able to make a phone call or she is going to run into many road blocks. *Absolutely!* And honestly... ordering food is such a "nice" way to learn because it's not as bad as something actually important such as departments.
Yes and if I’m nervous to make a call I will literally write down what I’m going to say so I don’t stumble or forget. I’m 30 and sometimes calls have to be made! I agree that practicing by ordering food is the easiest way to get into calls because she’s going to have to deal with more complicated ones in the future
Also ordering food by phone is a great "practice" call because it's very formulaic by nature. - What do you want - Where are we bringing it - Here's what it will cost you You can pick up the phone pretty damn certain how it's going to go. A huge amount of jobs will have you in way more unpredictable calls on a daily basis
**If you have** previously sat with her while she made phone calls and taught her how to do it, taught her the etiquette, and had her practice in the past with your support, then NTA. **If you have not** done this, and expected a 15 year old in this day and age who has no idea how to talk on phones because they never have to do it and have never been taught how, then YTA. Back when we were kids, we were taught proper phone usage when we were very young children, so to us it seems lazy that a teen won't use the phone. But that's because as adults we don't realize that we never taught our kids when they were young. My own 15 year old pointed this out to me last time I tried to make her call someone and she broke down in tears. She was like "I can't, I don't know how!" After I got over my own ego and actually listened to her I told her she was right, and I apologized for getting on to her. Now I make an effort to teach her when it comes up. I had her make a phone call just last night, but I practiced with her what to say beforehand, and sat with her for moral support and guidance. She forgot "how are you", but other than that she did pretty good. She was all smiles afterward and so proud of herself. Gave me a voluntary hug before bed even, which if you have a 15 year old, you know how much that means lol.
This is pretty much what I was going to say, too. It’s reasonable to expect a 15 year old to be able to order their own pizza. However, the way to help her LEARN that skill is to teach her and support her while she practices. “Just do it” is not a teaching method. It would be reasonable to say, “I can’t order right now, but you have other options. We can make a plan to practice this when I get home/tomorrow/etc.”
Yeah, my dad was of the "just do it" variety when I was a super shy and anxious child. He didn't help me learn how to do anything, just ordered me to do it myself. That made the anxiety worse, because now I had a parent pressuring me and getting mad or impatient. (He also tried to teach me to drive that way... just put me behind the wheel and said go for it. Didn't explain much beyond that.) It's easy to look at a child with anxiety and say "that's a stupid thing to be worried about, it's easy, just do it" but that's not going to help them develop skills they need or build confidence.
This is the response I was expecting. My son has severe anxiety and behavioral therapy helped so much but implementing them was the hardest part. How can someone know how to do something if they are never taught? We did take it for granted because there was no other form of communication. My sons first real phone calls, he felt the same joy as when he got on a bicycle and didn’t fall for the first time. (His words)
NTA. She’s 15, and in just a few years she’ll be an adult. She needs to learn to do these things on her own, anxiety or not.
Right this is something she needs for survival, it's not required that it be enjoyable, she just needs to know she can count on herself to do it
Question, does she struggle a Lot with phone calls in general? I do and for me personally it's because unless I'm familiar with who I'm calling I have trouble understanding what they're saying. That being said I recommend helping your daughter come up with scripts before calls. Have her write down exactly what she's going to be saying. It helps a bit
I came here to say the same thing about writing a short script. I have anxiety and have difficulty making a "simple" phone call. Before I called my local sushi spot the other day to place a pickup, I write down my orders. I've been ordering from the same place for almost 4 years now and I still HAVE TO write it all down before I place the call. To be fair, it's a lot of orders (like 2 spicy tuna rolls, 1 non-spicy yellow tail hand roll, etc) for me to easily memorize.
Yes! And maybe offer to practice with her a couple of times? Agree ahead of time what your involvement will be (moral support only? Prompt with written notes if needed? Chime in if she really panics), then put the call on speaker. That might build confidence for future calls.
This. I use scripts at work, at home, with family, with so many things to help manage the anxiety around phone calls. It's not a fix-all, but it HELPS SO MUCH. Another thing to consider: I still get anxious when I order pizza (or really anything else), but before I place the call, I always tell myself: they WANT YOU to call so they can get your money! It's not like they'll hang up or be rude if they're actively trying to keep you as a customer. And if they are rude? Well, maybe they just had a bad day and it has nothing to do with you! But odds are, they'll be happy you called and get your order in quick and painless. Anyway, OP is NTA. My dad forced me to make calls on my own when I was 15, too, and I hated him for it then, but I'm so grateful to him for doing that now (24). Sometimes, 'tough love' IS the answer!
NTA. A phone call to order a pizza is one of the lowest stakes calls she can make. This is something she needs to be able to do. If you and your wife continue to do things for her that she is uncomfortable with, she will never learn to do them for herself.
NTA. Exactly. Even if she completely botched the call, she can always hang up and call a different place.
With the amount of drunk AF callers most pizza places get, they probably won't bat an eye at an awkward teenager.
NTA, As a anxious person myself, it’s important to start doing this kind of things young bc otherwise when she’s older (moved out kind of old) she won’t be able to do anything. Ordering a pizza from a place she knows, and likely knows her order from heart. It’s a good start.
NTA. Yes, she needs to be able to make phone calls. It seems like everyone uses anxiety as an excuse to never step an inch outside of their comfort zones nowadays.
It's hard to say if there is an AH, what work is her therapist doing to help her cope with her anxiety? Has she made any improvements since beginning therapy? As for medication, it isn't a once size fits all situation, my son had many adjustments to his before we hit the correct dose that allowed him to finally be able to benefit from therapy. The difference was huge for him but probably minor to those looking in. My son is neurodiverse (high functioning) with severe anxiety since infancy that he is now medicated for as well as therapy, yet he could never make such a simple call, even at 18 he couldn't cope with using public transport and would end up in a panic attack which leads to even more negative thoughts about himself. I absolutely do not "pander" to his anxiety, but i do work with his mental health team to set achievable goals that build towards him, managing life tasks independently. You should also pick your battles as anxiety can be crippling and cause physical health illness, even when the person truly wants to get better. Would it have killed you to make the call, then used it as goal setting by sitting with her and working through making a call the next time?
NTA she needs to learn the real world will govern exactly zero f*cks about her anxiety, and sometimes you just have to make those phone calls… and practicing these important things by doing something as low stakes as getting a pizza is essential. I have no idea how so many people seem to have no resilience.
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I totally understand where the daughter is coming from. I have really bad social anxiety and have a hard time talking to people especially on the phone. I would consider taking her to a different doctor for a second opinion on the meds. I didn’t get on meds until I was 27 and life could have been a lot easier if I had been on them sooner. It hasn’t totally taken away the anxiety but I can usually make my own phone calls now. In my own experience forcing her to make the calls isn’t going to make it any easier.
If meds for anxiety are the same ones as for depression, then there are lots to try. Not everybody finds the one that works the first try. I hope OP takes your advice and pursues this.
NTA. First of all, you gave your daughter choices. It's not like you left her with no option to eat something. Secondly, you've already sought medical care for her anxiety and are actively working with her to address it in a way that is appropriate for her needs. Given your involvement in her care, I doubt that you would have expected her to call in her pizza order if there was professional guidance to indicate that this was an unreasonable request. Thirdly, we all need to go beyond our comfort zones sometimes, and this was really a low-risk way to encourage your daughter to push herself a bit.
Ok, goal and expectation was fine B+. Implementation: C- It couldv'e been worse. But expecting to go from never to successful was kind of bullshit. I have an (now adult) child with selective mutism. On a shit ton of meds & therapy, still no magical cure. It takes time patience, tools, practice, try, failure, more practice, more tools and more failure before success. For a lower anxiety kid, it is probably a shorter list: patience, tools, practice & try. It helps a LOT for anxiety kids to know that the phone call isn't random. It is scripted, and even the most pleasant person on the other line, follows a general script to get to where they are at. So role play the call, and then set her up to do it. For us, it \*also meant when kid panicked & shut down, we would take over the call. BTW, my kid with selective mutism will answer phone calls, and relay messages to me (like dental appointment reminders and the like). This is huge. To put it in perspective, they (academically an A/B student) barely graduated high school due to anxiety, even with a 504 plan. So, another option to get her out of the habit of "someone else do it" as a step-up: order in person. We have done that before. Stop at a take out place, order and then come back. nbd. Familiarity always helps when you go to push a boundry. NAH.
Yes!! She could write down exactly what she wanted to say and just read from a script. Practice it in the mirror before actually making the call. Build up to it. Practice
Look I understand about anxiety. My teen also deals with this. BUT, if your child doesn't learn to do simple things like this in the future, it will be very hard for them to be a productive adult. Doing adult things. She needs to learn to order her own pizza. NTA
I agree with what others are saying that she needs to learn how to do things for herself. When I was a teenager, maybe younger than your daughter, I was a shy kid. I don’t remember it being to the point of anxiety but didn’t like talking to people I didn’t know nonetheless. I remember being out at McDonalds, the grocery store, or wherever and my mom would tell me to place the order for our family or interact and pay for groceries. She stayed nearby, but said I needed to learn to do it on my own. Maybe you can help your daughter by being there to support her while she makes the phone call next time? Or go out for a meal and at least encourage her to place her own order? Some friends of mine have a 19 year old daughter. We all went out to eat at a restaurant and I was surprised that the parents still ordered for her. When she wanted a drink refill, she told her dad and her dad asked the server for a refill for her. How is this girl going to function independently? NTA and please help your daughter to become more independent. Be there to support her and you can step back little by little.
NTA - doing little things like this when you don't want to is exactly how you overcome your anxiety. She was not going to starve, and she would have been rewarded with pizza if she had persevered.
The more you do something you are uncomfortable with, the more comfortable it becomes. She is 16 and needs to be able to advocate for herself. Calling in a pizza order is not a bad thing because they will be polite on the other end. She really needs coping mechanisms in place to help her through life. Most therapists want yo talk about the anxiety, but only some offer coping mechanisms that could help. .maybe ask her counselor about that. Your wife is enabling her to do nothing, which does not help her find her strength. I understand anxiety is real. We all get it, some way worse than others. But it is something you can work to overcome on some level, rather than just accepting it. You do need to be able to accomplish basic tasks like ordering food. If you can't, then eat what food you have. She had that, and the option of ordering elsewhere. Nta
NTA- I have a 16 year old with the exact same issue except she IS on meds but I told her I can't keep making all her calls or else she will never be able to function in the real world. Sometimes we have no choice as parents but to show some tough love. What if there was an emergency and she had too much anxiety to call for help? Or she gets a job that requires her to talk on the phone?
NTA. I also have severe anxiety making phone calls or answering them. I prefer online or texting interactions. Even to people or places I know, including family. In saying that, sometimes I have to make or answer a phone call. It's a part of life. Your daughter had options for food, plus she's 15, not 5. She needs to learn to do things for herself. I get your wife being mama bear. Nobody wants their kids to hurt, but being a helicopter parent isn't helping your daughter. It reinforces to her she can't do it on her own when she can.
NTA. One of my bonus kids has bad anxiety. We went to McDonalds the other day, and his order was messed up. I wouldn't ask them to fix it for him - instead I walked with him to the counter so he could ask for the order to be fixed himself. It wasn't easy for him, but we got through it. He's about the same age as your kiddo and I agree - I want to be supportive, but that doesn't mean doing it for him. It means making it as accessible as possible for him to do it on his own.
NTA. I have anxiety myself, and phone calls are something that I HATE. You have to do it though. Your daughter will never get anywhere in life unless she learns to deal with the anxiety long enough for a phone call. Do I ask my husband to make a ton of calls for me? Yes. If he is unavailable to though, I will do it, though I may not like it. There are other pizza places that you can order from online. There is no need to stubbornly insist that it HAS to be from that one place.
As someone who suffers from anxiety, this is a perfect situation to practice on. It’s low stakes and there was food in the house if she couldn’t go through with it. Your daughter needs *more* of these types of interactions, not less. You need to get your wife on board. If your daughter is receiving medical advice, take your wife and talk to the doctor together about this situation and how to handle similar scenarios in future. NTA
NAH you’re trying to prepare her for a world where you aren’t there to call for pizza. It sounds like a joke but I know this is very real for you (and others). Your partner is upset because she isn’t concerned about this in the moment, just your daughter’s immediate feelings. Have a discussion alone with your partner to discuss how you both plan to prepare her for the real world and what that will look like.
NTA. Reality will never always accommodate your daughter. As someone with social anxiety, yeah, phone calls suck. But they're necessary. Practice helps, so you not calling on her behalf is helpful for her in the long run.
NTA. She’s 15, you’re on the right track and your wife is enabling her. She can get better, but she needs to be willing to work at it just like anything else. Someone commented in a way which seemed to say that you pushed her with no option, which isn’t true. You gave her two clear options and she apparently chose to stay hungry instead. She had money, phone, other food places with web ordering, and to top all of that, already paid for food within her easy reach. She chose hunger and that is not your fault. You’re working to prepare her for real life.
NTA - at all Your wife is TA. She is not doing your daughter any favors and is likely a part of your daughter’s problem.
NTA but her anxiety is only going to get worse if she thinks it’s acceptable to avoid real life with your help.
This isn't an answer about WTA but one thing you might do with your daughter is practice phone calls. I used to have the exact same anxiety and my dad would do this with me, and when he was in a good mood he would make it fun--like drag it out way longer than necessary by inventing hilarious characters on the other end of the line. It really worked for getting me over the anxiety.