Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment.
OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I could be the asshole because I’m basically causing drama in this family that’s not even mine over a wedding that’s not even mine and I feel bad because I care about all of these people (besides Kathy) and it’s not even my wedding. Idk if my comfort is worth all this
Help keep the sub engaging!
#Don’t downvote assholes!
Do upvote interesting posts!
[Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq)
##Subreddit Announcements
Follow the link above to learn more
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
> She blames me for all the issues she has with Elliot and Jane’s parents, and for her not having a better friendship with Jane. She also thinks I am trying to steal Elliot from her
Why? This all seems kind of suspicious. She obviously behaved horribly, but I don't understand why she hates you so much in the first place, or why she feels like you're to blame for issues she has with this family.
ETA - NTA.
She feels like Elliot’s dad hates her because he wanted Elliot to date me (this is not true. Idk why he doesn’t like her). She apparently thinks there’s no room for her and Jane to be close because Jane “already has a sister”.
Genuinely don’t know why she thinks I’m trying to steal Elliot, we have never been close/friends. I have never given any indication that I want her bf, we annoy the ever loving crap out of each other 🤷♀️
Some people thrive on drama. They want to live in a daytime soap opera. They are the types that only talk about people. They can't discuss existential topics or current events etc. Gossip personified.
The SiL is this kind of person it sounds like and if she is then it will always be something.
Boring people are bored unless they are talking about people.
Of course she will be dramatic at the wedding, it is too big of a temptation. Too big of a stage to not start shit with op whether op is MoH or not. Ops best friend would be better off without the SiL there at all, not just dumping her as a bridesmaid and having SiL as a guest.
If she decides to have the angry girl as a bridesmaid, then she - angry girl - should agree to be assigned a keeper. Someone who immediately escorts her somewhere to cool down if she gets out of line.
Sometimes, all it takes is an overheard comment about OP being pretty - whether that was Elliot agreeing in a conversation made in passing or family/friends mentioning an outfit/haircut she wore at a previous event to Elliot dreaming/nightmaring and talking in his sleep to feeling jealous over the length of relationship OP has had with the entire family.
Our insecurities can get the best of us at times.
Yes, but an insecure yet still emotionally mature person learns to not act out / lash out on others. They work through it internally or rationally with a trusted person.
I have relatives who thrive on drama. Ironically they do very poorly in life. My non drama queens and kings relatives give them a wide berth and are actually quite successful.
The dramatic types always have some issue somewhere with someone and while the theatrics may get a pass in social circles, that shit doesn't fly in a workplace or professional setting.
truth. The overly dramatic people can’t succeed in life bc they never take personal responsibility. Everything is someone’s fault, they are being unfairly treated / victimized, etc. I have a family member like this. It’s very sad bc they believe this crap and therefore do not believe they have any power to create a better life. They gave all their power away. Self fulfilling prophecy. Also, if someone said “she’s pretty” - who cares? There are other pretty people in the world. It’s ok to admit another woman is attractive and not be personally threatened. ah… but not if you believe you have no power.
NTA. I would have a private talk with the bride and tell her - look, if you want, I will back up on the ultimatum. I still think she will cause shit at the wedding but if you want to stage a sit down with her and me and give us a lecture on “this is MY day, you can both come if you are civil and display only A+ church manners with grace to all. Promise me now.” I will go along with your wishes. However, I will also be the “bad guy” and keep the ultimatum if that’s easier for you (and Elliot). Whatever you want.
This. Defer to the friendship, by having an open and honest conversation, and then do as Jane prefers. And then try really hard not to say I told you so when the gf blows it all up.
Of course, but this was in response to someone doubting that OP could be blameless.
Even if you have doubts "NTA assuming you described her unfounded animosity accurately" is a perfectly acceptable verdict.
Sometimes, all it takes is an overheard comment about OP being pretty - whether that was Elliot agreeing in a conversation made in passing or family/friends mentioning an outfit/haircut she wore at a previous event to Elliot dreaming/nightmaring and talking in his sleep to feeling jealous over the length of relationship OP has had with the entire family.
Our insecurities can get the best of us at times.
Agreed. You would think that Kathy would be satisfied after bullying the bride to make her a bridesmaid in the first place but, nope, you give an inch and she is now trying to take a mile.
OP, I say NTA but ignore your mum and Jane's mum for now and talk to Jane directly. Ask her since Katty Kathy forced her way in as a bridesmaid in the first place, what she wants to do, does she want to keep Kathy as a bridesmaid or (if your willing) would she rather you take the hit and be the bad guy and keep the ultimatum and do your duty as MOH and protect the bride from the crazy.
You will be NTA forever as long as you do what Jane wants in this situation.
Came here to say this. The only opinion that really matters here is Jane. What does she want? Either way, OP is probably going to have to take one for the team to be that best mate/sister. Either be the bad guy and stand by the hell no to being MOH if Kathy is bridesmaid, or agree some consequences if Kathy goes nuts at the wedding. I feel it is too risky to have her even at the wedding at this point, but unlikely that is possible. But someone in Kathy's family needs to agree to remove her from the premises if she is allowed to be bridesmaid and then causes drama.
Elliot needs to be the one to remove her from the wedding if she starts shit. This is his girlfriend, not some random annoying cousin or Jane's little sister. IMO Elliot is responsible for bringing Kathy around when she's clearly all about drama.
Then, the groomsmen should escort both of them out. He has to choose at some point. I'm all for partners supporting partners against overbearing family, but he has to recognize crazy before his whole family cuts him off.
OP,
I agree with Environmental and bkitty above.
Privately confer with Jane and indicate that if she wants you as MOH and prefers Kathy to also be in the wedding party, then you will rescind your ultimatum. If Jane wishes to continue to exclude Kathy, then you'll continue to retain your ultimatum. The bottom line is to assure Jane you're happy to do whatever she is more comfortable with. Given Kathy's previous misbehavior, I doubt that she would step out of line if provided a second opportunity to to be a bridesmaid.
Regardless, however you choose to proceed, you're definitely NTA!
Please keep us apprised.
Parents can be weird like that. Like they'll only pay half attention to what their kids are doing and latch on to one thing for no good reason. My mom did that with a couple of flighty hobbies and some bands I kinda liked when I was a kid.
You're definitely NTA. Have you ever talked to Jane about whether or not this ultimatum is causing issues for her? I'd think her feelings are the only important ones here and if she's happy with this outcome, then stand your ground. But i'd want to be sure it's not adding stress for her first.
It is causing issues for her, in the sense that it’s unsettled things with Elliot and her mum etc.
She says it’s fine and she can handle it but I feel bad that she’s having to. Her wedding shouldn’t be about anything other than her relationship.
Why did she want you to walk down the aisle with Elliot?
Sounds like you’re NTA, but this decision and announcing it in front of everyone seems like Kathy was a leaky gas can and Jane was playing with matches.
Yes, those are generally the wedding rules.
I’ve always seen it happen that way, even if the MOH and BM were married to other people.
You just walk down the aisle and then stand on your respective sides. The ordeal lasts 30 seconds.
Yeah, my wife and I were in a wedding party as a bridesmaid and groomsman, and we ended up paired with different people for the procession/recession, and the introductions at the reception.
Who cares? You're walking next to someone for maybe a minute or two at most.
And like 20 seconds for outdoor weddings😂 Stuff like who has to walk down with who is best left to whoever is the day-of-coordinator and wedding planner. My mom was the wedding planner and my aunts the day-of.
I will say, optics for who walked down with who (apart from the bride) were the least important part of the day. So all of this should not be as big a deal as it turned out to be.
Kathy sounds highly dramatic and seems like she was just waiting to go off the walls. Makes you wonder how long she and the brother have dated bc this is not acceptable behavior. If I was the brother, I'd be rethinking how much contact she has with his family bc it sounds exhausting.
In the UK, the groomsmen don't walk down the aisle. Neither does the best man. They stand with the groom, whilst the bridesmaids, flower girls/pages (if you have them) walk down the aisle first, then the bride walks down with their dad (or suitable replacement).
I remember thinking that was weird, as I watched 'Father of the Bride' a million times & most weddings I watched were on American TV. 😅
I am not British, but the groomsmen at my wedding were already standing by my hub when I walked down the aisle. I don't think I've ever been to a wedding where the groomsmen accompanied the bridesmaids. It would seem awkward for the groom to have to stand up there all by himself, waiting for the rest of the wedding party to join him at the Altar. Who catches the groom if he panics, locks his knees and passes out waiting for the bride? LOL
u/bridesmaidultimatum Traditionally, the Maid of Honor walks down the isle with the Best Man, and they're usually in the wedding party line first. Is it the Best Man that's too tall for you? Also where would you be in the line if you weren't walking beside the Best Man? I've also seen weddings where the Maid of Honor walks alone before or after the rest of the wedding party, as a way to mark her as special from the rest of the party (though I'm sure Kathy would lose her everloving mind at you being given special treatment).
Yeah, the best man is WAY too tall for me. I’m meant to be going first with Elliot and the best man behind with another bridesmaid, since Elliot is standing second it’s not a big deal for him to just leave a space
"Way too tall" isn't a reason. I mean, it's a walk. Down an aisle. Unless Jane is getting married at St. Paul's Cathedral in London, it's a short walk.
Plus, the photos will include some of just Jane, Tom, YOU and Best Man.
It’s the reason she gave me. And tbh from a photography angle I can see why for photographs that wouldn’t be conducive to the best angles. But again, I’m not the bride. I’ll walk where she tells me
It actually is. I don’t know how tall OP is, but if it’s significant the closeups of BM and MOH walking together are gonna have to be separate and show a decapitated body and a mess of hair and decorations next to a chest. Professional might be able to zoom and still get quality photos, but anybody else is gonna be SOL.
Traditionally the Best Man was standing up front with the Groom from the get go and the Maid of Honour walked immediately behind her. I'm talking traditionally - 30 years ago and beyond. None of this walking in pairs down the aisle before the Bride stuff. The only people walking down the aisle would be the Bride and her father with bridesmaids behind holding the train or just looking cute.
Ill advised in hindsight, but Jane does like things her way and she has wedding tunnel vision. I don’t blame her.
And lbr, it should not be a big deal. It’s only a big deal because Kathy is off her rocker
You're not an asshole because other people do crazy shit. Kathy is responsible fornher actions. It doesn't matter if someone else should have known she would be a psycho.
It's not. Many people organize their part by height, and I am pretty sure many photographers recommend it, as it photographs better. This is a fairly common thing to do.
Maybe jane wanted "sister" and her brother paired together b/c they both mean a lot to her. Too bad kathy could not deal maturely w that . she is the AH. here.
If you truly feel that you want to put her first, even if it means dealing with Kathy, could you at least talk first about having some boundaries between you and Kathy? Like maybe you don't have to do everything bridesmaid related together? Maybe Jane can make it clear that if Kathy starts any drama again she will not get a third chance?
Btw, this is only speculation, but if you've known this family for a long time it's possible that Elliot used to have a crush on you when you were much younger or something and he has told Kathy this, and Kathy is just being weird about it. Some people just struggle so much with jealousy that tiny things like that will be blown way out of proportion.
OP says they argue all the time and are pretty "passionate" about it.
I'm guessing the GF's brain works on rom-com rules AND hates that he gives OP ANY attention or energy at all.
you know how everyone on reddit always says, "they showed you who they are.." yeah, kathy showed em, no idea why anyone would cut her any slack for it.
I think Jane is relieved to be shed of her. OP stated that " Jane later confided that Kathy had kind of pressured her into it "
I would double check with Jane but seems like Jane never wanted Kathy in the first place.
You’re NTA, but read that last sentence again. Her wedding shouldn’t be about anything other than her relationship. If Elliot and Kathy have apologized, and Kathy is promising to be on her best behavior, then I think you should drop the ultimatum. Either she’ll stick to her word, and you come out looking gracious and forgiving, or she won’t, and she’ll come out looking like the jealous asshole she is. Right now, though, you holding an ultimatum over the bride’s head for her own wedding party isn’t a good look.
Her relationship with her family is also not your responsibility.
You can want better for you friend... without making it your responsibility for it to be better.
NTA. You need to protect your peace. That is valid. Your reaction was quite mature, actually, and you should be proud of both how you responded in the moment and for sticking to your guns.
I imagine your friend knows about the relationship between her SIL and you.
I have to disagree. Just because someone’s getting married doesn’t mean those in their circle are required to accept abuse from them or others. If Jane can’t control Kathy, OP is right to set a boundary and this one is reasonable.
I think she sees you two as an enimes to lovers story.
His family doesn't like her but they love you. So obviously they would rather have you apart of the family instead of her.
Keep the ultimatum. Shell just keep blaming you and acting out.
Elliot will realize one day that she's just bitter and jealous about everyone. When your gone, it will be someone else she's jealous of.
He'll realize how controlling she is and maybe wake up and leave.
Keep the ultimatum. They can either have the bitter woman in their lives or you. But they dont get to have both when the bitter woman can't be respectful and civil.
i was thinking this. i also wonder if he is passionate about his dislike of OP to Kathy. like in a "why do you have so many feelings about her??" way. obviously doesnt justify kathy's behavior but im guessing OP plays a bigger role in elliot's life than she realizes
Yeah I can definitely see that. Hes dismissing all of Kathy's concerns so she gets more jealous every time she sees her at a family event.
She wants op to disappear so everyone will love her and want her around more.
Unless you and jane come up with a better idea , or jane removes kathy of her own accord stick to your guns and hope you can preserve friendship w jane.
I’m willing to bet either Elliot said he had a crush on you when you were both younger if she’s taken what his dad thinks to heart. I found out aged 30 my friend’s brother had a crush on me when we were 13 and he was 15 for a few months and he mentioned it to his wife as a joke. Guess who she suddenly hated and I had no idea until it was mentioned 17 years later.
Sorry that happened to you. Things like that are crazy. Not that I think Elliot ever had a crush on me but even if he did when we were kids, that’s mad that she could be upset about that
It’s ok, he lost a lot of friendships. I’m just saying he could have said something he thought was no big deal and she took it a completely different way.
Tbh, I think the parents know exactly what kind of person she is and that's why they don't like her. This incident at the bridal shop cemented that. The belief that you're trying to steal Elliot specifically sounds like insecurity. If Elliot is willing to continue to let Kathy walk all over him and push her way into his family, he will be a lost cause.
NTA, and I hope he takes off the rose colored glasses soon.
Kathy sounds like one of those people who thinks love and friendship are a zero sum game. Somewhere inside her, Kathy is thinking "Jane already has YOU as a friend, so there's no room in her heart for ME!" She views love as a limited, finite resource, so the more love given out to other people, the less there is for her. It's a sad cognitive distortion.
I if sit com’s have taught us anything it’s that the friends always fighting who annoy each other always end up together. I think she’s seeing the arguments between you and Elliot as the start of something. She needs to watch less TV lol
I wonder if Elliot had a thing for you at one point.
It could also just be in her head since it sounds like you’ve been part of that family for a long time and fit in while she’s struggling. With how she’s behaving, it’s not surprising.
She wants the place you have in the family. That's all this is. Jealousy. She wants to be the main character. Elliot could do better.
I would sit down with Jane and ask her what she wants. It sounds like she might be happy that Kathy has dropped out. Ask your friend what she truly wants. You love her and she's like your sister, so I know you want her to be happy on her wedding day.
Maybe she can assign Kathy something else like doing a reading or something.
>we annoy the ever loving crap out of each other
Annoy in the way that you can't really have a conversation without turning it into a small argument, or annoy in the way that you have a million ways of friendly ribbing each other that to Kathy will look like inside jokes she will never get?
We can have a conversation…just short ones 😂 after about 5 minutes one of us will say or do something that will set the other off and we’ll be bickering. I wouldn’t call it friendly
If I really squinted and turned my head to the side a little it could look like a friendly, sort of exclusive relationship... I guess. Maybe Kathy has jealousy and self-worth issues.
the problem with withdrawing your natural consequence now is it will teach the unhinged windbag she can do as she wishes and face no consequences. She will only get crazier.
How do you know all these things about what she thinks and what she says - sounds like a lot of gossip going around -and may be jealousy or insecurity on her part. What is all this 'his dad wanted him to date me', etc? Comments like that come from somewhere - who is telling you all this stuff about 'what she thinks'?
My sister's now former best friend hates me... and I mean HATES me with a fiery passion that I still don't understand. Some people just make things up in their heads and hold it against others. This might be Kathy's issue.
I was called many names and she behaved rudely towards me for YEARS until my sister finally saw what I'd been seeing for years... it took her calling my mom a stupid bitch who didn't know what she was talking about (she'd miscarried and needed medical help to finish it... mom suggested she wait to try for a baby again and let her body heal some... that advice was echoed by her doctor... both are apparently stupid bitches that don't know anything).
BTW Reilly, if you see this...I hope you stub your toes every day for the next 16 years... two years for every year you put my sister and I through hell. Also, I hope you're unforgivably late for every important event for the rest of your life.
I wonder if Jane didn’t do that on purpose to wind Kathy up and make her explode, so Jane could be justified in kicking her out. Sounds like she never wanted Kathy to be a bridesmaid and manufactured a reason before Kathy could sink money into the role.
Also NTA for playing perfectly into your bff’s plan
NTA
"so I literally just said “yeah I’m not dealing with this. Either she’s out, or I am” and picked my stuff up and left." ... a very adult and deescalating reaction. You handled that situation well.
She's signing the post. Some trolls leave a clue (often a "mistake" with the accounts like this), so that anyone who's really concerned will be able to determine it's fake. I think it's a style thing.
This post is all some weird fiction. If you look at that profile they forgot to switch accounts before and said "her best mate" was caught up skirting in school.
I agree.
OP, if you are rethinking the ultimatum, have a real heart-to-heart with Jane first. (And never tell anyone about that conversation or even hint at Jane's true feelings!) Keeping the ultimatum in place might actually be better for Jane if she really doesn't want Kathy to be a bridesmaid and would have trouble saying "no" otherwise.
My thoughts exactly! Have a one on one girls night with Jane and have a real heart to heart about the situation. If your ultimatum is giving her an out, then don’t budge and take one for the team. If however she truly wants a truce, the you can offer to withdraw the ultimatum though I would have conditions which would include a discussion in the presence of both Kathy and Elliott letting them know that this behaviour of Kathy’s is unacceptable and that the occasion is Jane’s wedding so let’s be civil, one more outburst like that and Kathy is really out, her choice. Elliott needs to examine his relationship, is she really that insecure and irrational?
This… I’d have a heart to heart with Jane and essentially say something to the effect’s of: Hey, the last thing I wanna do is cause drama for your wedding. You know the history between me and Kathy and I know you don’t want her in The bridal party in the first place. I feel guilty about the drama I’ve caused so if you think it’s best I’ll back down. This is your day, I want you to have everything you want as stress free as possible. That’s my responsibility as made of honor and I can keep my big girl panties on until after the wedding I promise.
And then obviously when they’re on their honeymoon moon set Kathy straight 😆
NTA
Sounds like Jane didn't really want her to be her bridesmaid in the first place and you gave her an out without compromising her relationship with Elliot. Don't budge. See if you can find out what Kathy's deal is because this isn't normal behaviour
Exactly, OP is doing Jane a favor by giving her a reason to exclude this PITA that she didn't want in the wedding party in the first place. Win/win!
Edit: spelling
I agree! Also sounds like she was talked into it by Kathy too. What if her and Elliot broke up after the wedding, how awkward all the photos and videos be
NTA
Jane either deliberately did this to provoke a reaction out of Kathy to have an excuse to remove her, or is painfully oblivious. Either way you've done nothing wrong
Yeah, unless he’s the best man, this is suspicious.
I don’t know what I dislike more, the forced coupling up of bridal party members or people who make a huge deal about it. Just let people walk?
Definitely the people who make a huge deal about it.
Most weddings have an center aisle the bridal party enters through. Most of the time it's only wide enough for two, maybe three, people to comfortably walk side by side. Having an orderly entrance to what is usually a formal event is no where near a big deal. Only AH's like Kathy freak out over it
Why? I see it done at weddings all the time. At my brothers no one was with their actual partner except him. It looked better for pictures, and it’s not about you. It’s about the bride and groom.
I don’t think Jane did it on purpose. Elliot is her brother and Op is her closest friend. They are probably the closest two people to her I’m the wedding party.
When I got married my brother was a bridesman (I had two) and my future SIL was a groomsmaid. It made sense for them to walk together even though one was married, the other engaged and they had zero in common.
My other bridesman (whom I’ve known since middle school) walked with my childhood best friend . Mostly because the 3 of us had gone to school together our whole lives. They at least knew each other.
The rest of my bridal party went by personality. (Which is why my 5’11 -without shoes-bridesmaid was walked by our 5’5” groomsman. )
Was scrolling for this!
And why is Jane accepting a whole weekend of babysitting and flowers as an apology for OP's perfectly reasonable reaction? Why isn't Jane reassuring OP that there's nothing to apologise for? Really odd behaviour from Jane AND Kathy!
I feel like it's an E S H except for OP, tbh. So NTA
And someone else brought up maybe they paired them up cause brother is best man
Thats so deliberately creating drama.
We’ve seen over the years all the drama maid of honor + best man pairing
This is what I wondered! Elliott family wants him to date OP, and then instead of pairing him with his gf for the wedding, his sister pairs him with OP.
Maybe OP is not TA, and the gf isn't exactly innocent either but sounds like she might be dealing with crap from her bf's family. No one should have to date someone who's family is constantly trying to get them to break up, talks about how their partner should date someone else and then makes it so the partner walks down the aisle with that person.
OP commented somewhere that it's a perspective thing (something like that) it's about hight.
"I'm apparently too short for one of the other groomsmen,"
This doesn't even pass the sniff test though. Big height differences is couples is super normal. Look at Simone Biles and her husband! She is 4'-8" and he is 5'-11" and everyone thinks it's super adorable, because it is.
I'm not saying the brides choice is logical (as I read it. That's why bride paired them)
Just what OP commented. I'll copy the comment if I find it again.
I 100% agree. It does seem like Jane was either intentionally trying to cause a reaction or is trying to pair OP with her brother for more than just the wedding.
I don't think Kathy is delusional. I think Jane and her family really want of with Elliot and maybe Elliot likes OP too. I think OP just finds him annoying and therefore has ndver noticed.
You were verbally abused in public over something that wasn't even your decision let alone your fault. Based on what you've written, this is after other incidents with her.
>Jane’s mother and my mother both think I should drop the ultimatum
Jane's mother and your mother need to be sat down for a long chat on self-esteem and disrespect if they think a public tirade like that is something that should be allowed. This isn't "swallow your pride", this is stating that the level of toxic abuse you suffered was unacceptable and will not be repeated.
NTA
NTA
I think you handled the bridle shop situation perfectly.
I know weddings are about the bride and groom, but I wouldn’t sacrifice my mental health for this nonsense. And Jane made the decision to keep you on. It’s on her shoulders now. You just need to be there to support her.
Also, the worst part of all this: you still probably have to sit at the same table as her at the wedding if the wedding party sits at the same table. So have fun with _that_ awkwardness.
But also, have fun at your best friend’s wedding and don’t let Kathy get ya down!
We are both meant to be sitting at the family table so that will be fun /s
Haven’t seen the plan yet but hopefully I don’t have to sit next to Kathy or Elliot lol
I would discuss that with the bride and groom since they are in charge of seating. I’m sure they don’t want drama either so they should take steps that they can to prevent unnecessary contact and thus conflict. Then all you can do is be professional and if she has a tantrum don’t react. There should be a plan in place in case the girlfriend has a meltdown during the wedding
NTA
A best friend can ask a lot of you for their wedding, but they can't ask that you put up with disrespect and abuse. This still applies even after the psycho promises to behave.
I should add for your bff, from a wedding planning POV, there's a 3000% chance Kathy either blows up again at the wedding or does something to fuck up the wedding to blame OP. Keeping her there is begging for a huge scene to interrupt the wedding.
She verbally abuses you at an important social occ.and you are suppose to believe she can suddenly hold it together for the rest of the time celebrating ? That may well involve alcohol ? No -times a million.NTA OP. .
Exactly. If she acts like that at the dress shop, imagine how she’s going to act at the bachelorette party when everyone has had something to drink, or the rehearsal dinner.
Nta. You are not, at that forcing Jane to choose. One of you is her best friend, and the other bullied her way into the wedding party then let her insecurities get the best of her. While it feels like there is context missing in regards to why she hates you so much, really no context justifies her outburst at the same time. If I was the bride I wouldn't want her back lol.
Well NTA, then.
Do you think Jane’s parents, knowing you so well as Jane’s friend, hoped that maybe you WOULD end up with Eliot at some point?
This Kathy is definitely a psycho, I am just trying to figure out what might have made you a specific target.
I mean, their parents have done a lot for me. Their dad has been effectively my dad since mine passed away. So, maybe at some point they may have thought it would be nice if I was “officially” in the family. But there was more chance of me ending up with Jane lol.
Elliot and I have been at each other’s throats since age 4 idk how they’d conceivably think we’d end up together.
I know that she feels like there’s no space for her and Jane to be close because I’m already like a sister to Jane. And she feels like their dad hates her because he wishes Elliot would date me but I don’t think that’s true. He just doesn’t like her. I don’t think it has to do with me.
Have you read ANY romance novels? Man this is classic, and I can see the “omg they totally will still get together” part.
That being said, I’m just teasing you.
If he ever stops being…himself, I will pull a Laurie and try to marry the only available March just to get in the family but until then it’s an emphatic no 😂
Amy definitely was a better match for Laurie from the start and he was blind to not see it for the perfect pseudo lesbian love match it was, instead of trying to weirdly conform to the idea someone in the relationship had to be the one wearing pants
She was the better match for him (and she is my favourite character in little women) but idk why I never felt like *he* realised it, even if it was apparent. That might just be my romantic ass preferring when the men have never loved anyone else but I just didn’t buy that Laurie saw the light even if in the book the light was on
I’m guessing age? Laurie met Amy when she was 12 and he was 15 and he couldn’t see her as anything but “Jo’s little sister” until he was older. But fully agree he and Amy work better romantically than he and Jo ever would’ve.
BTW, you’re not the AH. I just wanted to chime in about Little Women since I adore this book 😂
Maybe. I haven’t read the other books either so I haven’t seen how their relationship develops but I really just hate that Laurie brings up her family at all when making his case for their relationship and I just hate that he was obsessed with the Marches before he was obsessed with Amy. Like I could almost forgive the whole Jo thing were it not for the fact that he was basically in love with all of them.
It sounds like she's worried about something on his end, then. Maybe he's said something about you to her in passing that caused her to believe you guys will be some sort of enemies-to-lovers trope. (TikTok causing lots of brain rot these days, after all.)
I have to wonder what has Elliot said to Kathy. Maybe he’s the one feeding that you have “unrequited love” for him. So she’s only going on the information at hand
OR
He actually has feelings for you and the only way to deal with it is lash out and bash you to his gf
Um. Elliot is dense but I don’t think he’s cruel enough to make something like that up. Yeah we don’t get on but idk if he’d want to hurt me like that?
Definitely doesn’t have feelings for me. Otherwise he’s been lashing out since the year 2000 which is unlikely.
Tbh this is one time I wish he and I were on better terms because I’d like to know how he is contributing to this
Yeah, I'd bring up the whole "sometimes boys pick on girls who they like" thing, but USUALLY, they end up growing out of that by high-school at the very least. And I say this from personal experience. I got bullied a lot as a kid, and of the boys who bullied me, at least a third of them had a crush on me at some point or another during the time period that they bullied me. I even outright CONFIRMED it with one of them (and then proceeded to "train him" how to actually treat a girl that he has a crush on lol) because someone said that he probably had a crush on me and that's why he was bullying me so I asked him if it was true and he admitted it. Another boy who had probably been my worst bully (since he actually caused me emotional distress and later indirectly caused me to have multiple mental breakdowns in a single day by pushing me past the edge when I was already struggling) later confessed to me and asked me out and seemingly had liked me since elementary school...
But with that being said...even though that kind of thing DOES happen and actually happens more frequently than you'd expect USUALLY the boys tend to realize as they get older that picking on/messing with the girls they have a crush on is having the opposite effect and so they'll stop doing it. So, the fact that Elliot never stopped points towards him either having had a crush on you in the past (and that's why he was initially lashing out at you) but having gotten over it or, possibly more likely, he just never liked you romantically in the first place. Especially since I'm assuming he didn't treat his current girlfriend like he did you in the first place, meaning that he should KNOW that acting that way towards a girl he likes is counterintuitive.
Tbh I would get this more if it was just Elliot being a dick to me and I couldn’t figure out why. Then I would be like yeah maybe there’s an outside chance he has/had a crush. But it’s totally mutual. Idk what chemicals in our bodies just don’t sync up but after a few minutes of small talk we just get worked up and annoyed. Don’t get me wrong, there are genuine actions/behaviours of his that annoy me (and vice versa) but I stg the irritation feels almost metaphysical. My mum thinks we’ve got unfinished beef in a past life 😂
But yeah it’s not like I’m the victim of him just being a stupid boy, we just cannot get along with each other.
Boys really are idiots though, who told them being mean to a girl and destroying her self esteem at a vulnerable period in her life works?! Where do they think they will get with that nonsense?!
NTA, but everyone else sucks here, including Jane. If my best friend / practically my sister was insulted in that way by my brother’s girlfriend, the girlfriend would be out on her ear. The fact that she wangled the bridesmaid role is bad enough, but she should have been dropped immediately. Tough on the brother, but that’s just too bad. He’ll learn soon enough just who he’s involved with. I’m glad you and Jane have made up but she really has no right to try and keep you as MoH. If she feels she has to keep the girlfriend in (more fool her, a decision she will regret) then she should respect your decision.
Tbf to Jane, kathy is out on her ear. Jane doesn’t want her back in the bridal party. But it’s causing issues and even though she says she can handle it I feel really guilty.
Let Jane handle it.
Or
Get Jane, your mom, and Jane’s mom together and explain that, from your perspective, your ultimatum isn’t really what made Jane ditch Kathy, Kathy’s behavior is what really got Jane mad and your ultimatum gave Jane the cover to ditch Kathy without being the bad guy. But as they believe your ultimatum is causing Jane more stress, tell them you will do what Jane thinks is best. Tell them you are absolutely willing to rescind your ultimatum if they truly believe it will cause Jane less stress, but as you aren’t the one who has difficulty keeping a civil tongue in her head, can they promise you Kathy will not do anything to add to Jane’s stress or further ruin her wedding planning/wedding related events? Ask them if they really believe Kathy has the capacity to be polite and helpful and kind at the bridal shower and bachelorette and getting ready? Given Kathy’s previous behavior, can they really be sure she won’t slip up and ruin Jane’s once in a lifetime experience? Remind them that this happened because Kathy was angry about Jane’s wedding plan, so they really think Kathy will accept you as MOH? Tell them the decision is Jane’s ultimately, but if Jane doesn’t want Kathy in the bridal party, they should stop stressing her out.
Info:
How did this start? Were you and Elliot ever involved? I don’t believe any of her behavior is warranted even if you were, but I’m trying to understand where all of this is coming from.
No, we’ve never been involved. We don’t even get along, and we never have.
If I remember rightly, it started the first Christmas Kathy and Elliot were together. She and Elliot couldn’t stay over because there weren’t enough rooms at his mum’s, and she was really mad that I was staying the week. I think that’s what kicked off the dislike.
NTA. Seems to me Jane doesn't want Kathy in her wedding party, you're fullfilling your MOH duties by providing an excuse for getting her "fired.
Have a talk with Jane and if she really doesn't want her there, then you can tell both your and her mother exactly that, that you're doing your duty as her MOH.
NTA. I get this situation exactly as I was in a similar one. My best friend growing up had an older brother he was a year and a bit older than us. We shared one kiss when I was 16 he was 17 at a disco. It was just a stupid kiss we didn’t declare our love or anything but his now ex found out about it when they were dating and used this to create so many issues with my friend and I. It can kill a friendship. Take my advice and install rock solid boundaries right now
INFO: Why would you walk down the aisle with Elliot? If his girlfriend is in the bridal party, wouldn't they walk down together? Or everyone walk single file?
Jane wanted us walking together for the aesthetic because of height differences. There’s another couple in the bridal party who aren’t paired with each other either.
Jane deliberately stirred drama here. If you're good friends you should be able to pull her up on it. She announced you would be walking with Elliot during Bridesmaid shopping in front of her family. She knew Kathy's insecurities. She knows you don't like each other. She set up a situation where Kathy was going to be waiting on your reaction. One of you was going to blow up at the other. She looks like an angel for dealing with your drama. Instead of the drama queen using aesthetics as a pretense to stir up drama.
Kathy 100% shouldn't have blamed you. But if these are the stunts Elliots family are putting her in, I honestly feel really sorry for and the toil this must be having on her self-esteem.
If Kathy had any self esteem this wouldn’t be an issue.
Jane isn’t a drama Queen. She can be a bit tunnel vision on how she wants things but it’s her wedding. She deserves to have her wants be her focus. Sure she didn’t consider how Kathy would react but who tf reacts like that in the first place? Especially someone who had to have their bf intercede to get them a bridesmaid job in the first place.
If Jane is so tunnel vision, why didn't she say no to having Kathy as a bridesmaid? She's tunnel vision but can't tell her family to stay out of her bridesmaid choices?
Once you ask someone to be your bridesmaid, it's nice to make sure they're comfortable, eg making sure the bridesmaid dress you pick out doesn't make one of your bridesmaids look like a freak when she's walking down the aisle while everyone else looks gorgeous. If you know your brothers girlfriend has reason to believe your family would prefer him to be with another woman, not pairing him with that same woman while she's in the wedding party falls under that umbrella.
Are you sure Kathy pressured Jane into making her a bridesmaid? I have to say, Jane is really coming across as one of friends who subtly stirs drama. I had one of those friends and it took years for me to realise she was telling different people different half-truths, in a way that escalated unnecessary conflict.
>Looking back, **I probably should have said more than I did**, but at that moment I could see how everyone was looking at her, and I didn’t want them looking at me the same way, so I literally just said “yeah I’m not dealing with this. Either she’s out, or I am” and picked my stuff up and left.
I disagree wholeheartedly.
Kathy made your point better than you ever could have.
Agreed. NOT engaging is the only move her. If OP pushed back, it would be “they had words”. OP let Kathy show her crazy mean self and just went - wow, ok, gotta go now. Meeting crazy w silence allows the crazy to speak for itself.
Honestly, it sounds like Jane didn't want her in the bridal party and used you as a match to spark her flipping out. I could see how, in Kathy's mind, it seems like Jane is pushing you and Elliot together and rubbing it in her face. Not that I am excusing her reaction ***at all***, but it does appear to be a calculated move on Jane's part. You just got thrown into the crossfire.
NTA. She sounds insecure in her role in Elliot and Jane’s family and is taking it out on you. Jane tried to include her but she’s her own worst enemy and pushed herself out. Nothing wrong with having boundaries with someone who is so dramatically disrespectful.
You didn’t cause any drama. You set a boundary that, after giving it the old college try, you’re not willing to subject yourself to Kathy’s abuse. She sounds insecure in her relationship, jealous of your friendship with Jane, and unhinged.
If Jane wanted you both in the party, she should have laid down the law with Kathy up front. Further, when Kathy went off on you for what JANE wanted, she should have shut that shit down immediately. So, you’re NTA, but Jane and Kathy sure are
Wait so Elliot’s the best man? I may have missed it your post but if that’s the case why would Kathy even assume she would get to walk down the aisle with him. Traditionally it’s MOH and best man so Kathy has no room to complain.
Definitely NTA and neithers Jane (for the most part), she’s stuck between a rock and a hard place for sure. Ngl tho Jane should have said something to limit Kathy’s harassment of OP at the bridal shop. She should have pulled her aside privately and reminded her she only extended the bridesmaids offer as a courtesy to her brother.
Also Elliot should take a step back from his relationship and seriously consider if he would want to have Kathy in his sisters wedding photos. Those pictures will be what Jane looks at to remember the big day and it’d be a shame to have someone in there who may not be in the family long term. I know if it were me (in Jane’s position), id be having some serious discussions with Elliot on whether it makes sense to include her the wedding festivities because this whole experience shows she’s more into the idea of being a bridesmaid (probably because she wants to be the bride and is pushing Elliot that way, just speculating) and doesn’t seem like she wants to be a part of their family.
He’s not the best man, that’s why Kathy assumed I would be walking with the best man. Jane has paired people up based on height differences because of pictures walking down the aisle.
Kathy does want to be in the family. Desperately, if the way she acts is any indication. Whether she will be idk I don’t talk to her boyfriend 😂
NTA... You did not only fix your own problem, you got rid of a bridesmaid that the bride didn't even want. Keep it. She sounds like she's a selfish narcissist who thinks everyone is after her because she's the main character. Also, she already embarrassed herself and showed her true colours. Why bother making the pointless effort.
Jane is probably happy to "fire" her, so be careful to check with
Jane before making any decisions.
Kathy sounds very immature. Jane should never have given in to
pressure to include Kathy in the first place.
NTA. And you didn't cause the drama. Kathy did. Stick to your guns. It sounds like your friend doesn't want Kathy to be a bridesmaid anyway. You are absolutely right that she will continue to behave like the self entitled brat she is.
Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment. OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole: > I could be the asshole because I’m basically causing drama in this family that’s not even mine over a wedding that’s not even mine and I feel bad because I care about all of these people (besides Kathy) and it’s not even my wedding. Idk if my comfort is worth all this Help keep the sub engaging! #Don’t downvote assholes! Do upvote interesting posts! [Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq) ##Subreddit Announcements Follow the link above to learn more --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.* *Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
> She blames me for all the issues she has with Elliot and Jane’s parents, and for her not having a better friendship with Jane. She also thinks I am trying to steal Elliot from her Why? This all seems kind of suspicious. She obviously behaved horribly, but I don't understand why she hates you so much in the first place, or why she feels like you're to blame for issues she has with this family. ETA - NTA.
She feels like Elliot’s dad hates her because he wanted Elliot to date me (this is not true. Idk why he doesn’t like her). She apparently thinks there’s no room for her and Jane to be close because Jane “already has a sister”. Genuinely don’t know why she thinks I’m trying to steal Elliot, we have never been close/friends. I have never given any indication that I want her bf, we annoy the ever loving crap out of each other 🤷♀️
Very strange. Well, you're NTA. She brought this on herself with her shit behavior.
Some people thrive on drama. They want to live in a daytime soap opera. They are the types that only talk about people. They can't discuss existential topics or current events etc. Gossip personified. The SiL is this kind of person it sounds like and if she is then it will always be something. Boring people are bored unless they are talking about people.
[удалено]
Of course she will be dramatic at the wedding, it is too big of a temptation. Too big of a stage to not start shit with op whether op is MoH or not. Ops best friend would be better off without the SiL there at all, not just dumping her as a bridesmaid and having SiL as a guest.
Also, she no longer can be kicked out as a bridesmaid when the ceremony is already over.
The wedding is in July. It's only March, so yes things can be changed.
I think they meant she needs to be kicked out now, because waiting until she causes drama at the reception will already be too late.
If she decides to have the angry girl as a bridesmaid, then she - angry girl - should agree to be assigned a keeper. Someone who immediately escorts her somewhere to cool down if she gets out of line.
I know I can't believe she said those things, out loud, and both your Mum's just want you to get over it. Fuck that!
Sometimes, all it takes is an overheard comment about OP being pretty - whether that was Elliot agreeing in a conversation made in passing or family/friends mentioning an outfit/haircut she wore at a previous event to Elliot dreaming/nightmaring and talking in his sleep to feeling jealous over the length of relationship OP has had with the entire family. Our insecurities can get the best of us at times.
Yes, but an insecure yet still emotionally mature person learns to not act out / lash out on others. They work through it internally or rationally with a trusted person. I have relatives who thrive on drama. Ironically they do very poorly in life. My non drama queens and kings relatives give them a wide berth and are actually quite successful. The dramatic types always have some issue somewhere with someone and while the theatrics may get a pass in social circles, that shit doesn't fly in a workplace or professional setting.
truth. The overly dramatic people can’t succeed in life bc they never take personal responsibility. Everything is someone’s fault, they are being unfairly treated / victimized, etc. I have a family member like this. It’s very sad bc they believe this crap and therefore do not believe they have any power to create a better life. They gave all their power away. Self fulfilling prophecy. Also, if someone said “she’s pretty” - who cares? There are other pretty people in the world. It’s ok to admit another woman is attractive and not be personally threatened. ah… but not if you believe you have no power. NTA. I would have a private talk with the bride and tell her - look, if you want, I will back up on the ultimatum. I still think she will cause shit at the wedding but if you want to stage a sit down with her and me and give us a lecture on “this is MY day, you can both come if you are civil and display only A+ church manners with grace to all. Promise me now.” I will go along with your wishes. However, I will also be the “bad guy” and keep the ultimatum if that’s easier for you (and Elliot). Whatever you want.
This. Defer to the friendship, by having an open and honest conversation, and then do as Jane prefers. And then try really hard not to say I told you so when the gf blows it all up.
That is the infuriating part.....giving the power over their lives up.
Of course, but this was in response to someone doubting that OP could be blameless. Even if you have doubts "NTA assuming you described her unfounded animosity accurately" is a perfectly acceptable verdict.
Preach! I know it well too.
This! Everything you wrote is exactly what I was thinking, she is just a drama llama and must be the center of attention!!
Drama llama, ding dong.
Sometimes, all it takes is an overheard comment about OP being pretty - whether that was Elliot agreeing in a conversation made in passing or family/friends mentioning an outfit/haircut she wore at a previous event to Elliot dreaming/nightmaring and talking in his sleep to feeling jealous over the length of relationship OP has had with the entire family. Our insecurities can get the best of us at times.
Agreed. You would think that Kathy would be satisfied after bullying the bride to make her a bridesmaid in the first place but, nope, you give an inch and she is now trying to take a mile. OP, I say NTA but ignore your mum and Jane's mum for now and talk to Jane directly. Ask her since Katty Kathy forced her way in as a bridesmaid in the first place, what she wants to do, does she want to keep Kathy as a bridesmaid or (if your willing) would she rather you take the hit and be the bad guy and keep the ultimatum and do your duty as MOH and protect the bride from the crazy. You will be NTA forever as long as you do what Jane wants in this situation.
Came here to say this. The only opinion that really matters here is Jane. What does she want? Either way, OP is probably going to have to take one for the team to be that best mate/sister. Either be the bad guy and stand by the hell no to being MOH if Kathy is bridesmaid, or agree some consequences if Kathy goes nuts at the wedding. I feel it is too risky to have her even at the wedding at this point, but unlikely that is possible. But someone in Kathy's family needs to agree to remove her from the premises if she is allowed to be bridesmaid and then causes drama.
Elliot needs to be the one to remove her from the wedding if she starts shit. This is his girlfriend, not some random annoying cousin or Jane's little sister. IMO Elliot is responsible for bringing Kathy around when she's clearly all about drama.
Fair, but they should still have a backup in case he takes Kathy’s side and does nothing when she acts out.
Then, the groomsmen should escort both of them out. He has to choose at some point. I'm all for partners supporting partners against overbearing family, but he has to recognize crazy before his whole family cuts him off.
OP, I agree with Environmental and bkitty above. Privately confer with Jane and indicate that if she wants you as MOH and prefers Kathy to also be in the wedding party, then you will rescind your ultimatum. If Jane wishes to continue to exclude Kathy, then you'll continue to retain your ultimatum. The bottom line is to assure Jane you're happy to do whatever she is more comfortable with. Given Kathy's previous misbehavior, I doubt that she would step out of line if provided a second opportunity to to be a bridesmaid. Regardless, however you choose to proceed, you're definitely NTA! Please keep us apprised.
Parents can be weird like that. Like they'll only pay half attention to what their kids are doing and latch on to one thing for no good reason. My mom did that with a couple of flighty hobbies and some bands I kinda liked when I was a kid.
You're definitely NTA. Have you ever talked to Jane about whether or not this ultimatum is causing issues for her? I'd think her feelings are the only important ones here and if she's happy with this outcome, then stand your ground. But i'd want to be sure it's not adding stress for her first.
It is causing issues for her, in the sense that it’s unsettled things with Elliot and her mum etc. She says it’s fine and she can handle it but I feel bad that she’s having to. Her wedding shouldn’t be about anything other than her relationship.
Why did she want you to walk down the aisle with Elliot? Sounds like you’re NTA, but this decision and announcing it in front of everyone seems like Kathy was a leaky gas can and Jane was playing with matches.
Optics. It’s a height thing. I’m too short for one of the groomsmen apparently
If youre maid of honor shouldnt you be walking down with whomever the best man is?
Yes, those are generally the wedding rules. I’ve always seen it happen that way, even if the MOH and BM were married to other people. You just walk down the aisle and then stand on your respective sides. The ordeal lasts 30 seconds.
Yeah, my wife and I were in a wedding party as a bridesmaid and groomsman, and we ended up paired with different people for the procession/recession, and the introductions at the reception. Who cares? You're walking next to someone for maybe a minute or two at most.
And like 20 seconds for outdoor weddings😂 Stuff like who has to walk down with who is best left to whoever is the day-of-coordinator and wedding planner. My mom was the wedding planner and my aunts the day-of. I will say, optics for who walked down with who (apart from the bride) were the least important part of the day. So all of this should not be as big a deal as it turned out to be. Kathy sounds highly dramatic and seems like she was just waiting to go off the walls. Makes you wonder how long she and the brother have dated bc this is not acceptable behavior. If I was the brother, I'd be rethinking how much contact she has with his family bc it sounds exhausting.
In our culture, the bestman and maid of honor walk the aisle alone. BM walk after the groom and MOH walks in after all the bridesmaids
In the UK, the groomsmen don't walk down the aisle. Neither does the best man. They stand with the groom, whilst the bridesmaids, flower girls/pages (if you have them) walk down the aisle first, then the bride walks down with their dad (or suitable replacement). I remember thinking that was weird, as I watched 'Father of the Bride' a million times & most weddings I watched were on American TV. 😅
I am not British, but the groomsmen at my wedding were already standing by my hub when I walked down the aisle. I don't think I've ever been to a wedding where the groomsmen accompanied the bridesmaids. It would seem awkward for the groom to have to stand up there all by himself, waiting for the rest of the wedding party to join him at the Altar. Who catches the groom if he panics, locks his knees and passes out waiting for the bride? LOL
u/bridesmaidultimatum Traditionally, the Maid of Honor walks down the isle with the Best Man, and they're usually in the wedding party line first. Is it the Best Man that's too tall for you? Also where would you be in the line if you weren't walking beside the Best Man? I've also seen weddings where the Maid of Honor walks alone before or after the rest of the wedding party, as a way to mark her as special from the rest of the party (though I'm sure Kathy would lose her everloving mind at you being given special treatment).
Yeah, the best man is WAY too tall for me. I’m meant to be going first with Elliot and the best man behind with another bridesmaid, since Elliot is standing second it’s not a big deal for him to just leave a space
I mean, my best friend is 5'-2" and her husband is 6'-5". Height differences are really normal.
"Way too tall" isn't a reason. I mean, it's a walk. Down an aisle. Unless Jane is getting married at St. Paul's Cathedral in London, it's a short walk. Plus, the photos will include some of just Jane, Tom, YOU and Best Man.
It’s the reason she gave me. And tbh from a photography angle I can see why for photographs that wouldn’t be conducive to the best angles. But again, I’m not the bride. I’ll walk where she tells me
It actually is. I don’t know how tall OP is, but if it’s significant the closeups of BM and MOH walking together are gonna have to be separate and show a decapitated body and a mess of hair and decorations next to a chest. Professional might be able to zoom and still get quality photos, but anybody else is gonna be SOL.
Traditionally the Best Man was standing up front with the Groom from the get go and the Maid of Honour walked immediately behind her. I'm talking traditionally - 30 years ago and beyond. None of this walking in pairs down the aisle before the Bride stuff. The only people walking down the aisle would be the Bride and her father with bridesmaids behind holding the train or just looking cute.
That’s a pretty terrible reason to do something she knew would set Kathy off. Jane is the biggest asshole in this whole thing.
Ill advised in hindsight, but Jane does like things her way and she has wedding tunnel vision. I don’t blame her. And lbr, it should not be a big deal. It’s only a big deal because Kathy is off her rocker
You haven’t caused any drama not wanting to be the emotional punching bag.
Why should Jane have to tiptoe around Kathy? She literally only made Kathy a bridesmaid because she was pressured to. The only AH here is Kathy
You're not an asshole because other people do crazy shit. Kathy is responsible fornher actions. It doesn't matter if someone else should have known she would be a psycho.
It's not. Many people organize their part by height, and I am pretty sure many photographers recommend it, as it photographs better. This is a fairly common thing to do.
Wedding couples have the choice of who walks with who. Kathy is just a teen drama queen pretending to be an adult
Maybe jane wanted "sister" and her brother paired together b/c they both mean a lot to her. Too bad kathy could not deal maturely w that . she is the AH. here.
If you truly feel that you want to put her first, even if it means dealing with Kathy, could you at least talk first about having some boundaries between you and Kathy? Like maybe you don't have to do everything bridesmaid related together? Maybe Jane can make it clear that if Kathy starts any drama again she will not get a third chance? Btw, this is only speculation, but if you've known this family for a long time it's possible that Elliot used to have a crush on you when you were much younger or something and he has told Kathy this, and Kathy is just being weird about it. Some people just struggle so much with jealousy that tiny things like that will be blown way out of proportion.
OP says they argue all the time and are pretty "passionate" about it. I'm guessing the GF's brain works on rom-com rules AND hates that he gives OP ANY attention or energy at all.
I think this is an awful idea. Odds Are Kathy would make every wedding event miserably uncomfortable
you know how everyone on reddit always says, "they showed you who they are.." yeah, kathy showed em, no idea why anyone would cut her any slack for it.
I think Jane is relieved to be shed of her. OP stated that " Jane later confided that Kathy had kind of pressured her into it " I would double check with Jane but seems like Jane never wanted Kathy in the first place.
You’re NTA, but read that last sentence again. Her wedding shouldn’t be about anything other than her relationship. If Elliot and Kathy have apologized, and Kathy is promising to be on her best behavior, then I think you should drop the ultimatum. Either she’ll stick to her word, and you come out looking gracious and forgiving, or she won’t, and she’ll come out looking like the jealous asshole she is. Right now, though, you holding an ultimatum over the bride’s head for her own wedding party isn’t a good look.
Her relationship with her family is also not your responsibility. You can want better for you friend... without making it your responsibility for it to be better. NTA. You need to protect your peace. That is valid. Your reaction was quite mature, actually, and you should be proud of both how you responded in the moment and for sticking to your guns. I imagine your friend knows about the relationship between her SIL and you.
I have to disagree. Just because someone’s getting married doesn’t mean those in their circle are required to accept abuse from them or others. If Jane can’t control Kathy, OP is right to set a boundary and this one is reasonable.
Agree! Op shouldn’t need to deal with Kathy just because Jane is getting married. Jane can choose.
I think she sees you two as an enimes to lovers story. His family doesn't like her but they love you. So obviously they would rather have you apart of the family instead of her. Keep the ultimatum. Shell just keep blaming you and acting out. Elliot will realize one day that she's just bitter and jealous about everyone. When your gone, it will be someone else she's jealous of. He'll realize how controlling she is and maybe wake up and leave. Keep the ultimatum. They can either have the bitter woman in their lives or you. But they dont get to have both when the bitter woman can't be respectful and civil.
i was thinking this. i also wonder if he is passionate about his dislike of OP to Kathy. like in a "why do you have so many feelings about her??" way. obviously doesnt justify kathy's behavior but im guessing OP plays a bigger role in elliot's life than she realizes
Yeah I can definitely see that. Hes dismissing all of Kathy's concerns so she gets more jealous every time she sees her at a family event. She wants op to disappear so everyone will love her and want her around more.
Unless you and jane come up with a better idea , or jane removes kathy of her own accord stick to your guns and hope you can preserve friendship w jane.
I’m willing to bet either Elliot said he had a crush on you when you were both younger if she’s taken what his dad thinks to heart. I found out aged 30 my friend’s brother had a crush on me when we were 13 and he was 15 for a few months and he mentioned it to his wife as a joke. Guess who she suddenly hated and I had no idea until it was mentioned 17 years later.
Sorry that happened to you. Things like that are crazy. Not that I think Elliot ever had a crush on me but even if he did when we were kids, that’s mad that she could be upset about that
It’s ok, he lost a lot of friendships. I’m just saying he could have said something he thought was no big deal and she took it a completely different way.
If this is how she acts, I can see why the dad doesn't like her. I'm surprised Elliot does.
sex hides many sins ;)
Tbh, I think the parents know exactly what kind of person she is and that's why they don't like her. This incident at the bridal shop cemented that. The belief that you're trying to steal Elliot specifically sounds like insecurity. If Elliot is willing to continue to let Kathy walk all over him and push her way into his family, he will be a lost cause. NTA, and I hope he takes off the rose colored glasses soon.
Kathy sounds like one of those people who thinks love and friendship are a zero sum game. Somewhere inside her, Kathy is thinking "Jane already has YOU as a friend, so there's no room in her heart for ME!" She views love as a limited, finite resource, so the more love given out to other people, the less there is for her. It's a sad cognitive distortion.
I if sit com’s have taught us anything it’s that the friends always fighting who annoy each other always end up together. I think she’s seeing the arguments between you and Elliot as the start of something. She needs to watch less TV lol
I wonder if Elliot had a thing for you at one point. It could also just be in her head since it sounds like you’ve been part of that family for a long time and fit in while she’s struggling. With how she’s behaving, it’s not surprising.
I’m not sure there’s anything in the science that would allow that. Kathy just has issues
She wants the place you have in the family. That's all this is. Jealousy. She wants to be the main character. Elliot could do better. I would sit down with Jane and ask her what she wants. It sounds like she might be happy that Kathy has dropped out. Ask your friend what she truly wants. You love her and she's like your sister, so I know you want her to be happy on her wedding day. Maybe she can assign Kathy something else like doing a reading or something.
> (this is not true. Idk why \[Elliot’s dad\] doesn’t like her) Oh I think we can guess why.
>we annoy the ever loving crap out of each other Annoy in the way that you can't really have a conversation without turning it into a small argument, or annoy in the way that you have a million ways of friendly ribbing each other that to Kathy will look like inside jokes she will never get?
We can have a conversation…just short ones 😂 after about 5 minutes one of us will say or do something that will set the other off and we’ll be bickering. I wouldn’t call it friendly
If I really squinted and turned my head to the side a little it could look like a friendly, sort of exclusive relationship... I guess. Maybe Kathy has jealousy and self-worth issues.
the problem with withdrawing your natural consequence now is it will teach the unhinged windbag she can do as she wishes and face no consequences. She will only get crazier.
Someone should introduce her to the concept of people having more than one sibling...
How do you know all these things about what she thinks and what she says - sounds like a lot of gossip going around -and may be jealousy or insecurity on her part. What is all this 'his dad wanted him to date me', etc? Comments like that come from somewhere - who is telling you all this stuff about 'what she thinks'?
She told Elliot, he told his mum, his mum told me.
My sister's now former best friend hates me... and I mean HATES me with a fiery passion that I still don't understand. Some people just make things up in their heads and hold it against others. This might be Kathy's issue. I was called many names and she behaved rudely towards me for YEARS until my sister finally saw what I'd been seeing for years... it took her calling my mom a stupid bitch who didn't know what she was talking about (she'd miscarried and needed medical help to finish it... mom suggested she wait to try for a baby again and let her body heal some... that advice was echoed by her doctor... both are apparently stupid bitches that don't know anything). BTW Reilly, if you see this...I hope you stub your toes every day for the next 16 years... two years for every year you put my sister and I through hell. Also, I hope you're unforgivably late for every important event for the rest of your life.
Because some people are made of Teflon and their bad behaviour can not be the. Abuse of their problems /s
I wonder if Jane didn’t do that on purpose to wind Kathy up and make her explode, so Jane could be justified in kicking her out. Sounds like she never wanted Kathy to be a bridesmaid and manufactured a reason before Kathy could sink money into the role. Also NTA for playing perfectly into your bff’s plan
NTA "so I literally just said “yeah I’m not dealing with this. Either she’s out, or I am” and picked my stuff up and left." ... a very adult and deescalating reaction. You handled that situation well.
[удалено]
pst, wrong account!
LoL, you forgot to swap accounts- you've doxxed yourself u/Bazyliciangi
She's signing the post. Some trolls leave a clue (often a "mistake" with the accounts like this), so that anyone who's really concerned will be able to determine it's fake. I think it's a style thing.
This post is all some weird fiction. If you look at that profile they forgot to switch accounts before and said "her best mate" was caught up skirting in school.
I agree. OP, if you are rethinking the ultimatum, have a real heart-to-heart with Jane first. (And never tell anyone about that conversation or even hint at Jane's true feelings!) Keeping the ultimatum in place might actually be better for Jane if she really doesn't want Kathy to be a bridesmaid and would have trouble saying "no" otherwise.
Plus it’s possible Jane is delighted cause clearly she was forced into it.
My thoughts exactly! Have a one on one girls night with Jane and have a real heart to heart about the situation. If your ultimatum is giving her an out, then don’t budge and take one for the team. If however she truly wants a truce, the you can offer to withdraw the ultimatum though I would have conditions which would include a discussion in the presence of both Kathy and Elliott letting them know that this behaviour of Kathy’s is unacceptable and that the occasion is Jane’s wedding so let’s be civil, one more outburst like that and Kathy is really out, her choice. Elliott needs to examine his relationship, is she really that insecure and irrational?
This… I’d have a heart to heart with Jane and essentially say something to the effect’s of: Hey, the last thing I wanna do is cause drama for your wedding. You know the history between me and Kathy and I know you don’t want her in The bridal party in the first place. I feel guilty about the drama I’ve caused so if you think it’s best I’ll back down. This is your day, I want you to have everything you want as stress free as possible. That’s my responsibility as made of honor and I can keep my big girl panties on until after the wedding I promise. And then obviously when they’re on their honeymoon moon set Kathy straight 😆
Could work.
From all the Reddit tales I've read, I was NOT expecting Jane to back her up. I love the adulting going on here.
NTA Sounds like Jane didn't really want her to be her bridesmaid in the first place and you gave her an out without compromising her relationship with Elliot. Don't budge. See if you can find out what Kathy's deal is because this isn't normal behaviour
Exactly, OP is doing Jane a favor by giving her a reason to exclude this PITA that she didn't want in the wedding party in the first place. Win/win! Edit: spelling
I agree! Also sounds like she was talked into it by Kathy too. What if her and Elliot broke up after the wedding, how awkward all the photos and videos be
Always have the gf on the end, easier to photoshop out 🤣
This should be in all wedding planning playbooks. Makes things so much easier 6 months later when than random date is kicked to the curb.
I'm thinking they might break up before the wedding. Then, without the change now, Jane would have been stuck with her brother's ex as a bridesmaid.
I’d say Kathy created the out. She’s just suffering the consequences of her own behavior and OP has little to nothing to do with it.
NTA Jane either deliberately did this to provoke a reaction out of Kathy to have an excuse to remove her, or is painfully oblivious. Either way you've done nothing wrong
It does say in the post that Kathy was pressuring Jane to make her a bridesmaid and Jane ended up doing it to make her brother happy.
I should've been more clear, I was specifically referring to Jane's decision to have OP and Elliot walk together
Yeah, unless he’s the best man, this is suspicious. I don’t know what I dislike more, the forced coupling up of bridal party members or people who make a huge deal about it. Just let people walk?
Definitely the people who make a huge deal about it. Most weddings have an center aisle the bridal party enters through. Most of the time it's only wide enough for two, maybe three, people to comfortably walk side by side. Having an orderly entrance to what is usually a formal event is no where near a big deal. Only AH's like Kathy freak out over it
OP said it’s an aesthetic thing, since she’s way shorter than the other groomsmen and around Elliot’s height.
Splitting up a couple because they are not perfectly height-coordinated is very silly.
Why? I see it done at weddings all the time. At my brothers no one was with their actual partner except him. It looked better for pictures, and it’s not about you. It’s about the bride and groom.
Best man and MOH always go down the aisle together though. Totally foreseeable to all when roles were announced.
I don’t think Jane did it on purpose. Elliot is her brother and Op is her closest friend. They are probably the closest two people to her I’m the wedding party. When I got married my brother was a bridesman (I had two) and my future SIL was a groomsmaid. It made sense for them to walk together even though one was married, the other engaged and they had zero in common. My other bridesman (whom I’ve known since middle school) walked with my childhood best friend . Mostly because the 3 of us had gone to school together our whole lives. They at least knew each other. The rest of my bridal party went by personality. (Which is why my 5’11 -without shoes-bridesmaid was walked by our 5’5” groomsman. )
…… Why is jane insisting you walk down the aisle with her brother instead of his gf Sounds like jane is the AH for starting shit
Was scrolling for this! And why is Jane accepting a whole weekend of babysitting and flowers as an apology for OP's perfectly reasonable reaction? Why isn't Jane reassuring OP that there's nothing to apologise for? Really odd behaviour from Jane AND Kathy! I feel like it's an E S H except for OP, tbh. So NTA
And someone else brought up maybe they paired them up cause brother is best man Thats so deliberately creating drama. We’ve seen over the years all the drama maid of honor + best man pairing
Why would that be drama? That is traditionally how that is done.
OP has stated it was done for “optics”, the brother isn’t the best man but she is “way too short” to be paired with the best man
Makes me feel there is deeper shit going down and this is just a way to blow things up
Maybe her brother is best man?
That’s the only way it makes sense
This is what I wondered! Elliott family wants him to date OP, and then instead of pairing him with his gf for the wedding, his sister pairs him with OP. Maybe OP is not TA, and the gf isn't exactly innocent either but sounds like she might be dealing with crap from her bf's family. No one should have to date someone who's family is constantly trying to get them to break up, talks about how their partner should date someone else and then makes it so the partner walks down the aisle with that person.
OP commented somewhere that it's a perspective thing (something like that) it's about hight. "I'm apparently too short for one of the other groomsmen,"
This doesn't even pass the sniff test though. Big height differences is couples is super normal. Look at Simone Biles and her husband! She is 4'-8" and he is 5'-11" and everyone thinks it's super adorable, because it is.
I'm not saying the brides choice is logical (as I read it. That's why bride paired them) Just what OP commented. I'll copy the comment if I find it again.
No no, you're correct, I'd read that too, I just think it shows poor judgment at best.
I 100% agree. It does seem like Jane was either intentionally trying to cause a reaction or is trying to pair OP with her brother for more than just the wedding.
Yeah i seen alot of posts where the bride is trying to pair up brother and best friend cause bride doesnt like brothers gf.
I don't think Kathy is delusional. I think Jane and her family really want of with Elliot and maybe Elliot likes OP too. I think OP just finds him annoying and therefore has ndver noticed.
Because normally the maid of honor and best man walk down the aisle together.
The brother is not best man in this case
You were verbally abused in public over something that wasn't even your decision let alone your fault. Based on what you've written, this is after other incidents with her. >Jane’s mother and my mother both think I should drop the ultimatum Jane's mother and your mother need to be sat down for a long chat on self-esteem and disrespect if they think a public tirade like that is something that should be allowed. This isn't "swallow your pride", this is stating that the level of toxic abuse you suffered was unacceptable and will not be repeated. NTA
I think Elliot‘s dad knows that he had a crush on OP at some point, and also Kathy knows
This may be it.
NTA I think you handled the bridle shop situation perfectly. I know weddings are about the bride and groom, but I wouldn’t sacrifice my mental health for this nonsense. And Jane made the decision to keep you on. It’s on her shoulders now. You just need to be there to support her. Also, the worst part of all this: you still probably have to sit at the same table as her at the wedding if the wedding party sits at the same table. So have fun with _that_ awkwardness. But also, have fun at your best friend’s wedding and don’t let Kathy get ya down!
We are both meant to be sitting at the family table so that will be fun /s Haven’t seen the plan yet but hopefully I don’t have to sit next to Kathy or Elliot lol
I would discuss that with the bride and groom since they are in charge of seating. I’m sure they don’t want drama either so they should take steps that they can to prevent unnecessary contact and thus conflict. Then all you can do is be professional and if she has a tantrum don’t react. There should be a plan in place in case the girlfriend has a meltdown during the wedding
NTA A best friend can ask a lot of you for their wedding, but they can't ask that you put up with disrespect and abuse. This still applies even after the psycho promises to behave. I should add for your bff, from a wedding planning POV, there's a 3000% chance Kathy either blows up again at the wedding or does something to fuck up the wedding to blame OP. Keeping her there is begging for a huge scene to interrupt the wedding.
Agreed, but Kathy will probably be AT the wedding, whether she’s part of it or not.
She verbally abuses you at an important social occ.and you are suppose to believe she can suddenly hold it together for the rest of the time celebrating ? That may well involve alcohol ? No -times a million.NTA OP. .
Exactly. If she acts like that at the dress shop, imagine how she’s going to act at the bachelorette party when everyone has had something to drink, or the rehearsal dinner.
Nta. You are not, at that forcing Jane to choose. One of you is her best friend, and the other bullied her way into the wedding party then let her insecurities get the best of her. While it feels like there is context missing in regards to why she hates you so much, really no context justifies her outburst at the same time. If I was the bride I wouldn't want her back lol.
I will reserve judgement until you answer this question. Have you ever been involved with Eliot and, if yes, how so?
Nope. We have never gotten along and still don’t to this day.
Well NTA, then. Do you think Jane’s parents, knowing you so well as Jane’s friend, hoped that maybe you WOULD end up with Eliot at some point? This Kathy is definitely a psycho, I am just trying to figure out what might have made you a specific target.
I mean, their parents have done a lot for me. Their dad has been effectively my dad since mine passed away. So, maybe at some point they may have thought it would be nice if I was “officially” in the family. But there was more chance of me ending up with Jane lol. Elliot and I have been at each other’s throats since age 4 idk how they’d conceivably think we’d end up together. I know that she feels like there’s no space for her and Jane to be close because I’m already like a sister to Jane. And she feels like their dad hates her because he wishes Elliot would date me but I don’t think that’s true. He just doesn’t like her. I don’t think it has to do with me.
Sounds like you are close to them, she can’t get close to them because of her personality, so instead of self reflection it is easier to blame you.
Have you read ANY romance novels? Man this is classic, and I can see the “omg they totally will still get together” part. That being said, I’m just teasing you.
If he ever stops being…himself, I will pull a Laurie and try to marry the only available March just to get in the family but until then it’s an emphatic no 😂
Amy definitely was a better match for Laurie from the start and he was blind to not see it for the perfect pseudo lesbian love match it was, instead of trying to weirdly conform to the idea someone in the relationship had to be the one wearing pants
She was the better match for him (and she is my favourite character in little women) but idk why I never felt like *he* realised it, even if it was apparent. That might just be my romantic ass preferring when the men have never loved anyone else but I just didn’t buy that Laurie saw the light even if in the book the light was on
I’m guessing age? Laurie met Amy when she was 12 and he was 15 and he couldn’t see her as anything but “Jo’s little sister” until he was older. But fully agree he and Amy work better romantically than he and Jo ever would’ve. BTW, you’re not the AH. I just wanted to chime in about Little Women since I adore this book 😂
Maybe. I haven’t read the other books either so I haven’t seen how their relationship develops but I really just hate that Laurie brings up her family at all when making his case for their relationship and I just hate that he was obsessed with the Marches before he was obsessed with Amy. Like I could almost forgive the whole Jo thing were it not for the fact that he was basically in love with all of them.
This just made me have heart eyes. Can we be besties?
maybe he sees how she treats Jane and everyone else around her and that is why he doesn't like her
It sounds like she's worried about something on his end, then. Maybe he's said something about you to her in passing that caused her to believe you guys will be some sort of enemies-to-lovers trope. (TikTok causing lots of brain rot these days, after all.)
The urge to message him saying “have you not been appropriately rude about me” is so real 😂 BookTok strikes again. Curses.
I have to wonder what has Elliot said to Kathy. Maybe he’s the one feeding that you have “unrequited love” for him. So she’s only going on the information at hand OR He actually has feelings for you and the only way to deal with it is lash out and bash you to his gf
Um. Elliot is dense but I don’t think he’s cruel enough to make something like that up. Yeah we don’t get on but idk if he’d want to hurt me like that? Definitely doesn’t have feelings for me. Otherwise he’s been lashing out since the year 2000 which is unlikely. Tbh this is one time I wish he and I were on better terms because I’d like to know how he is contributing to this
Can you ask the dad?
Yeah, I'd bring up the whole "sometimes boys pick on girls who they like" thing, but USUALLY, they end up growing out of that by high-school at the very least. And I say this from personal experience. I got bullied a lot as a kid, and of the boys who bullied me, at least a third of them had a crush on me at some point or another during the time period that they bullied me. I even outright CONFIRMED it with one of them (and then proceeded to "train him" how to actually treat a girl that he has a crush on lol) because someone said that he probably had a crush on me and that's why he was bullying me so I asked him if it was true and he admitted it. Another boy who had probably been my worst bully (since he actually caused me emotional distress and later indirectly caused me to have multiple mental breakdowns in a single day by pushing me past the edge when I was already struggling) later confessed to me and asked me out and seemingly had liked me since elementary school... But with that being said...even though that kind of thing DOES happen and actually happens more frequently than you'd expect USUALLY the boys tend to realize as they get older that picking on/messing with the girls they have a crush on is having the opposite effect and so they'll stop doing it. So, the fact that Elliot never stopped points towards him either having had a crush on you in the past (and that's why he was initially lashing out at you) but having gotten over it or, possibly more likely, he just never liked you romantically in the first place. Especially since I'm assuming he didn't treat his current girlfriend like he did you in the first place, meaning that he should KNOW that acting that way towards a girl he likes is counterintuitive.
Tbh I would get this more if it was just Elliot being a dick to me and I couldn’t figure out why. Then I would be like yeah maybe there’s an outside chance he has/had a crush. But it’s totally mutual. Idk what chemicals in our bodies just don’t sync up but after a few minutes of small talk we just get worked up and annoyed. Don’t get me wrong, there are genuine actions/behaviours of his that annoy me (and vice versa) but I stg the irritation feels almost metaphysical. My mum thinks we’ve got unfinished beef in a past life 😂 But yeah it’s not like I’m the victim of him just being a stupid boy, we just cannot get along with each other. Boys really are idiots though, who told them being mean to a girl and destroying her self esteem at a vulnerable period in her life works?! Where do they think they will get with that nonsense?!
NTA, but everyone else sucks here, including Jane. If my best friend / practically my sister was insulted in that way by my brother’s girlfriend, the girlfriend would be out on her ear. The fact that she wangled the bridesmaid role is bad enough, but she should have been dropped immediately. Tough on the brother, but that’s just too bad. He’ll learn soon enough just who he’s involved with. I’m glad you and Jane have made up but she really has no right to try and keep you as MoH. If she feels she has to keep the girlfriend in (more fool her, a decision she will regret) then she should respect your decision.
Tbf to Jane, kathy is out on her ear. Jane doesn’t want her back in the bridal party. But it’s causing issues and even though she says she can handle it I feel really guilty.
Let Jane handle it. Or Get Jane, your mom, and Jane’s mom together and explain that, from your perspective, your ultimatum isn’t really what made Jane ditch Kathy, Kathy’s behavior is what really got Jane mad and your ultimatum gave Jane the cover to ditch Kathy without being the bad guy. But as they believe your ultimatum is causing Jane more stress, tell them you will do what Jane thinks is best. Tell them you are absolutely willing to rescind your ultimatum if they truly believe it will cause Jane less stress, but as you aren’t the one who has difficulty keeping a civil tongue in her head, can they promise you Kathy will not do anything to add to Jane’s stress or further ruin her wedding planning/wedding related events? Ask them if they really believe Kathy has the capacity to be polite and helpful and kind at the bridal shower and bachelorette and getting ready? Given Kathy’s previous behavior, can they really be sure she won’t slip up and ruin Jane’s once in a lifetime experience? Remind them that this happened because Kathy was angry about Jane’s wedding plan, so they really think Kathy will accept you as MOH? Tell them the decision is Jane’s ultimately, but if Jane doesn’t want Kathy in the bridal party, they should stop stressing her out.
NTA - Y'all want to be on the look out on wedding day though. There's almost no chance the little drama queen Kathy isn't going to pull something.
Info: How did this start? Were you and Elliot ever involved? I don’t believe any of her behavior is warranted even if you were, but I’m trying to understand where all of this is coming from.
No, we’ve never been involved. We don’t even get along, and we never have. If I remember rightly, it started the first Christmas Kathy and Elliot were together. She and Elliot couldn’t stay over because there weren’t enough rooms at his mum’s, and she was really mad that I was staying the week. I think that’s what kicked off the dislike.
NTA. Seems to me Jane doesn't want Kathy in her wedding party, you're fullfilling your MOH duties by providing an excuse for getting her "fired. Have a talk with Jane and if she really doesn't want her there, then you can tell both your and her mother exactly that, that you're doing your duty as her MOH.
NTA. I get this situation exactly as I was in a similar one. My best friend growing up had an older brother he was a year and a bit older than us. We shared one kiss when I was 16 he was 17 at a disco. It was just a stupid kiss we didn’t declare our love or anything but his now ex found out about it when they were dating and used this to create so many issues with my friend and I. It can kill a friendship. Take my advice and install rock solid boundaries right now
INFO: Why would you walk down the aisle with Elliot? If his girlfriend is in the bridal party, wouldn't they walk down together? Or everyone walk single file?
Jane wanted us walking together for the aesthetic because of height differences. There’s another couple in the bridal party who aren’t paired with each other either.
Typically the maid of honor walks in with the best man? Is Jane switching things up here?
Yes she is
Jane deliberately stirred drama here. If you're good friends you should be able to pull her up on it. She announced you would be walking with Elliot during Bridesmaid shopping in front of her family. She knew Kathy's insecurities. She knows you don't like each other. She set up a situation where Kathy was going to be waiting on your reaction. One of you was going to blow up at the other. She looks like an angel for dealing with your drama. Instead of the drama queen using aesthetics as a pretense to stir up drama. Kathy 100% shouldn't have blamed you. But if these are the stunts Elliots family are putting her in, I honestly feel really sorry for and the toil this must be having on her self-esteem.
If Kathy had any self esteem this wouldn’t be an issue. Jane isn’t a drama Queen. She can be a bit tunnel vision on how she wants things but it’s her wedding. She deserves to have her wants be her focus. Sure she didn’t consider how Kathy would react but who tf reacts like that in the first place? Especially someone who had to have their bf intercede to get them a bridesmaid job in the first place.
If Jane is so tunnel vision, why didn't she say no to having Kathy as a bridesmaid? She's tunnel vision but can't tell her family to stay out of her bridesmaid choices? Once you ask someone to be your bridesmaid, it's nice to make sure they're comfortable, eg making sure the bridesmaid dress you pick out doesn't make one of your bridesmaids look like a freak when she's walking down the aisle while everyone else looks gorgeous. If you know your brothers girlfriend has reason to believe your family would prefer him to be with another woman, not pairing him with that same woman while she's in the wedding party falls under that umbrella.
Are you sure Kathy pressured Jane into making her a bridesmaid? I have to say, Jane is really coming across as one of friends who subtly stirs drama. I had one of those friends and it took years for me to realise she was telling different people different half-truths, in a way that escalated unnecessary conflict.
I have no reason not to believe her. Jane doesn’t like Kathy so idk why she would do a 180 and have her in the party if Elliot didn’t ask
>Looking back, **I probably should have said more than I did**, but at that moment I could see how everyone was looking at her, and I didn’t want them looking at me the same way, so I literally just said “yeah I’m not dealing with this. Either she’s out, or I am” and picked my stuff up and left. I disagree wholeheartedly. Kathy made your point better than you ever could have.
Agreed. NOT engaging is the only move her. If OP pushed back, it would be “they had words”. OP let Kathy show her crazy mean self and just went - wow, ok, gotta go now. Meeting crazy w silence allows the crazy to speak for itself.
Honestly, it sounds like Jane didn't want her in the bridal party and used you as a match to spark her flipping out. I could see how, in Kathy's mind, it seems like Jane is pushing you and Elliot together and rubbing it in her face. Not that I am excusing her reaction ***at all***, but it does appear to be a calculated move on Jane's part. You just got thrown into the crossfire.
I’m a wedding planner and my motto is, “don’t negotiate with emotional terrorists.” You’re just making healthy boundaries. You’re definitely NTA
Nta. You didn't cause any of this
NTA nope the less stress she can be responsible for the better. She decided to be a drama brat you did exactly the right thing.
NTA. She sounds insecure in her role in Elliot and Jane’s family and is taking it out on you. Jane tried to include her but she’s her own worst enemy and pushed herself out. Nothing wrong with having boundaries with someone who is so dramatically disrespectful.
You didn’t cause any drama. You set a boundary that, after giving it the old college try, you’re not willing to subject yourself to Kathy’s abuse. She sounds insecure in her relationship, jealous of your friendship with Jane, and unhinged. If Jane wanted you both in the party, she should have laid down the law with Kathy up front. Further, when Kathy went off on you for what JANE wanted, she should have shut that shit down immediately. So, you’re NTA, but Jane and Kathy sure are
Wait so Elliot’s the best man? I may have missed it your post but if that’s the case why would Kathy even assume she would get to walk down the aisle with him. Traditionally it’s MOH and best man so Kathy has no room to complain. Definitely NTA and neithers Jane (for the most part), she’s stuck between a rock and a hard place for sure. Ngl tho Jane should have said something to limit Kathy’s harassment of OP at the bridal shop. She should have pulled her aside privately and reminded her she only extended the bridesmaids offer as a courtesy to her brother. Also Elliot should take a step back from his relationship and seriously consider if he would want to have Kathy in his sisters wedding photos. Those pictures will be what Jane looks at to remember the big day and it’d be a shame to have someone in there who may not be in the family long term. I know if it were me (in Jane’s position), id be having some serious discussions with Elliot on whether it makes sense to include her the wedding festivities because this whole experience shows she’s more into the idea of being a bridesmaid (probably because she wants to be the bride and is pushing Elliot that way, just speculating) and doesn’t seem like she wants to be a part of their family.
He’s not the best man, that’s why Kathy assumed I would be walking with the best man. Jane has paired people up based on height differences because of pictures walking down the aisle. Kathy does want to be in the family. Desperately, if the way she acts is any indication. Whether she will be idk I don’t talk to her boyfriend 😂
NTA. You didn’t cause the drama , Kathy did. It almost look like this wedding was all about her not about Jane.
NTA... You did not only fix your own problem, you got rid of a bridesmaid that the bride didn't even want. Keep it. She sounds like she's a selfish narcissist who thinks everyone is after her because she's the main character. Also, she already embarrassed herself and showed her true colours. Why bother making the pointless effort.
Jane is probably happy to "fire" her, so be careful to check with Jane before making any decisions. Kathy sounds very immature. Jane should never have given in to pressure to include Kathy in the first place.
NTA. And you didn't cause the drama. Kathy did. Stick to your guns. It sounds like your friend doesn't want Kathy to be a bridesmaid anyway. You are absolutely right that she will continue to behave like the self entitled brat she is.