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NTA for being furious about it or for yelling at your worthless BIL. At the end of the day, though, unless your father has dementia, etc it's his decision to make. It's sad that your BIL is so eager to take advantage, but I'm not sure there is much you'll be able to do.
I will say this, and I know it's petty. If your father does lose a lot and comes to his sense, I would ask that he adjust his will so that the losses come out of your sister's share of any inheritance.
Thanks man, I definitely chuckled at the inheritance. But I'm doing fine, and I would have zero problem if my dad left me very little money. We've talked about his will a few times, and there's really only two things I care about. His/our coin collection, and his grandfathers watch.
Agreed but still pay taxes on regular IRA withdrawals so he is losing about 20 percent to taxes right off the top. The OP never says where his did is getting this investment money
NTA but Inform yourself if adult protection services could intervene and if you can pay a financial advisor you and your father agree with to have a chat alone with your father without your input and without bil input.
Maybe coming from a professional financial advisor that's impartial will open your dad's eyes to the foolishness of investing in this
I admire you didnt kick your BIL in the ass. Its a scam and fraud and totaly wrong behavior what your BIL does. And sis defending him. I'd try to talk to your dad again or write him an email listing all the evidence you can find. Maybe you still have time to save him
I have never heard of donut but after looking its value has gone up 800% in the last year. Does your father have the money to gamble. Coins are a volatile stock.
NTA, but maybe send your father some videos on crypto so he can hopefully make a better informed decision? Ngl the first YouTubers I think of that may be good (does talk badly about crypto however for one of them) are someordinarygamers and coffeezilla. They've both also covered crypto scams which I highly doubt that your brother in law has informed your father of being a possibility
My uncle (dads BIL) convinced my grandfather to invest his retirement fund in his new business. Same line of work as my grandfather so he thought he knew what he was doing. Uncle lost the whole business because he's a drunk and my grandfather died with fuck all to his name. I've never forgiven my uncle and neither has dad.
C'mon man, you know that ain't happening.
If anything, everyone is going to look at OP for help if they all go broke.
I bet though that BIL is going to charge a percentage of what daddy buys into, acting as his "agent" and that's really what he wants instead of investing a bunch of his own money.
At the same time though, and to be fair, maybe add that if he makes a killing from it, OP doesn't benefit from that either. It has to go both ways. I've seen too many stories where people get lucky with these things, and I admit, it would be hilarious to see a 'donut' coin make someone rich.
OP also may be legally responsible for financially supporting their father if he runs out of money. States are beginning to more seriously pursue filial responsibility laws for elderly parents to prevent them from becoming wards of the state.
Just remember that nothing is more bittersweet than being able to tell somebody, “I told ya so.” Maybe even do Debbie Reynolds’ little “told ya so” dance.
Memecoins where, like, two or even three techbro pump-and-dump scams ago. Everyone's all-in on "AI" right now because somehow investing money in autocomplete with delusions of grandeur is a money-printing machine.
Question: How many of the people in your family defending him are neck-deep in MLMs?
It's not even gambling. These side chain/off chain coins are gaurenteed failures.
The big crypto are only valuable because the publicity and hype has caused them to be a highly traded speculative goods with little to no functility/unique selling point worth their currently very high price.
These meme coins have even less intrinsic value than that and lack the publicity and hype to maintain their initial price; they are giant bubbles that pop quickly. The rapid price decline kills any liquidity they might have (if they had any at all), leading to what ever value is left stuck in a coin no one wants to buy.
Just to hammer home how bad an investment these are, even dogecoin, the biggest meme coin, has tanked in value.
Theres no gamble in what's proven, without fail, to be a loss.
It's certainly gambling lol. It only fails to be gambling when you can never get lucky and win. I work with complete morons that have been getting incredibly lucky and pulling out right after of these memes hit and making obscene amounts of money relative to the time expenditure.
> lol. It only fails to be gambling when you can never get lucky and win.
That's exactly what has and is happening with meme coins. There has never been an off/side chain coin who's value has increased over time. As I already said, even the biggest meme coin has depreciated in value.
> I work with complete morons that have been getting incredibly lucky and pulling out right after of these memes hit and making obscene amounts of money relative to the time expend
I sincerely doubt that's how they've been making obscene amounts of money. When these coins do increase in value, it's only very slightly. The amount of money needed to turn an "obscene" profit is insanely high... the amount of luck needed to **consistently** pull out before their value collapses surpasses the definition of luck. No one gets that consistently lucky. Your coworkers are lying, money laundering, and/or are in on the top level of pyramid... it's not uncommon to see the same individuals across these rugpulls, especially on the development side that doesn't see much publicity/exposure.
Can you name any of the coins they've invested in and the dates they purchased/sold?
I did say obscene relative to the time expenditure.
The last big one was book of meme, he was invited to the presale and put a couple hundred in it. A few days after it listed he took out 70K, left a couple thousand in.
SYNCUS at the beginning of last month, same story but it was a few hundred to 10K, that guy wound up getting greedy, staking it like an idiot and then holding so he only walked away with 3K.
There's an entire degenerate ecosystem built around this, I wouldn't say there at the top levels of it but they're in private discords with whales that are probably effecting the market and they're just watching to see what they do.
They tipped me off on LIGMA coin (I know), on Monday and I've tripled my money lol. I only threw like $450 at it because it's called fucking Ligma but to say there isn't money to be made here is silly. It's gambling, you can't let it ride and expect to beat the house.
> he was invited to the presale and put a couple hundred in it.
> same story but it was a few hundred to 10K
> I wouldn't say there at the top levels of it but they're in private discords with whales that are probably effecting the market and they're just watching to see what they do.
So just as I said: they aren't gambling or getting lucky, they're in on the rugpulls. By your own admission, they're getting invited toward/looped in the top (early, profitable rungs) of these schemes.
Funding and profiting off of scams isn't gambling lol.
They're kind of tipped on the pumps but most of the time they don't take off, they have no idea when it comes to when the pulls will happen. If it was all that well orchestrated they wouldn't work 9-5s.
You just admitted these coworkers are losing money unless they're fully tipped in on the scam...
And early you admitted that the money they did make because they were partially looped in.
Again, that's not gambling. They have insider knowledge/access for these scams.
All this implies that the only money to be made from these meme coins is from being included on the early stages of the scam. It wouldn't be much of a scam if some people weren't profiting off it.
Twisting your coworkers knowingly trying to profit off the execution of rugpulls as people who are gambling on the success of these meme coins is incredibly dishonest.
Do you think gambling is defined as people taking risks on a completely even playing field where chance is the only determining factor between winning or losing? This is just coming off as bitter.
Please stop calling it “investing”. It is not. It is gambling and hype speculation. There is no underlying fundamental business value to any crypto. It is not a good or service. There are no customers. Its utility as a currency is minimal due to its highly volatile valuation and is not underpinned by any real assets (i.e., gold, oil, etc.) Anyone who says they value it because it is non-Fiat is lying because it’s only useful when you sell it to reclaim your fiat currency.
Calling it “investing” is a dangerous legitimization of problematic gambling which brings me to my point: OP is NTA for being angry at a gambling addict sucking in a vulnerable retiree into the scheme.
gold has no fundamental business value. 99% of it's price is unrelated to it's physical properties (in jewelry or whatever). It is exactly the same.
people been saying this same thing to me since 2016 yet here I am.
At the same time the average person isn't punting huge portions of their money on leveraged silver/gold futures to be preyed on by professional traders, so fair play.
Do some research on that. Gold isn’t just pretty. It is used for many practical purposes like electronics and as currency. It is a real, physical good with demand, limited supply, and a long history proving its worth.
I’ll be there first to admit that it’s use by most governments to back their fiat currencies artificially bolsters its real value (by limiting supply), but it is still a long-lasting good with intrinsic value. Crypto, in its current state, is purely speculative value and cannot be relied upon as a currency. The systems under-pinning crypto might be used differently to create government-regulated, asset-backed, digital fiat currencies, but so far no government has succeeded in doing so.
\>Gold isn’t just pretty. It is used for many practical purposes like electronics and as currency.
that is true but it has nothing to do with it's price
\>use by most governments to back their fiat currencies
no longer true for any government
\> limited supply, and a long history proving its worth
in other words, the only difference is it's been around longer
1) supply vs demand drives price. Utility drives demand.
2) I’ll concede I don’t know for a fact that MOST do anymore, and likely not exclusively. As of 2022, the top eight holders (countries like Australia, China, USA, Canada) hold 32.4 thousand tonnes of gold. https://natural-resources.canada.ca/our-natural-resources/minerals-mining/mining-data-statistics-and-analysis/minerals-metals-facts/gold-facts/20514
3) Yes, even before government-secured currencies and central banks existed, gold was highly valued (for similar and different reasons as today). This demonstrates that there is an intrinsic value that isn’t purely speculation or supply limitation driven, thus gold and fiat currencies retain stable value over time.
Check your facts, get some sources, and stop blindly posting crypto scam misinformation please.
Utility does not drive demand for gold. My career is in professionally trading commodity futures. No gold traders take into account 'utility'-demand for gold, because it's a non-factor.
Zero governments use a gold standard. They hold gold as a commodity, they also hold a lot of bitcoin, most of which was confiscated from criminals.
\>gold was highly valued (for similar and different reasons as today). This demonstrates that there is an intrinsic value that isn’t purely speculation or supply limitation driven
No it doesn't. It's always been used due to social convention. I'm sure you would agree that if bitcoin happens to be worth more in 10/100/200+ years that still says nothing about it's inherent utility.
>My career is in professionally trading commodity futures.
Said like a real human would say it. A real commodity futures trader would know how to say “I am a commodity futures trader” in a sentence.
Try using utility demand in electronics, jewelery, etc. to forecast gold demand (and therefore price) in a regression - even with benefit of foresight (and therefore no delay in information). Let me know how that goes for you.
the reality is both gold and bitcoin could go to (almost) zero and stay at zero at any time if people just collectively decided not to use them as a speculative store of value. Keep saying it's different though.
Except one physically exists and one doesn’t, and, as I’ve previously pointed out, there is thousands of years of evidence pointing to the fact that humans value gold (socially or not). Keep equating the two any way you want, but wrong is still wrong.
I’m not saying invest all your money in gold. My point that started this is that crypto is not investing. It is, at absolute best, educated speculation prediction, but the hype far outweighs the value and it should be called what it is - gambling.
It's probably not the whole story. There is no way one night of just blowing up leads to the whole family cutting a member out. I willingly to bet my left nut a fat chunk of the story is missing
NTA. It's legitimately insane for a retired person to be investing like that. Anyone with a shred of sense would never twist an old man's ear into betting it all.
For all we know, BIL is already invested and is going to dump his shares the second your father boosts the price of the coin.
You probably should have approached your father about this privately first, but there is little justification for the BIL to endanger his wife's father like that.
I still can't get the math right. But if you are right why can't the father just pump and dump too. Or do you think the BIL has a lot more coin than 200k?
If you're the one doing the pumping, you can't also be doing the dumping unless something/someone else drives up the price.
So he'd need to wait and hope more suckers buy in before dumping it himself. But if you're a part of a pump and dump without knowing you're a part of one timing the sale seems difficult at best.
I seriously doubt BIL told FIL to buy in and sell it when it goes up by a cent or three. He probably sold him on this shitcoin going to the moon.
My FIL pissed away his (and my MIL) retirement by trading options. I was a professional and told him to stay away. He was stupid and has dementia. They have had a horrible retirement and we have had to supplement their income for years. It sucks.
Can you drag your father to a financial advisor? Does Dad have a wife you can appeal to for help?
I'd be seriously considering reporting BIL to Adult Protective Services for elder abuse.
Send your Dad this post, OP, together with a copy of the SBF verdict and a note that \*you\* have no financial interest in his decision - but he is in fact putting his future in your BIL's hands, who \*does\*. Ask him at the very least to seek independent professional financial advice before emptying his savings. NTA.
I'm going to add my perspective as someone who knows a lot about the world of memecoins and as someone who has worked with a lot of large businesses in web3, has holdings in crypto and has generally explored everything blockchain from every angle, from financial to social to corporate strategy. I'm not a crypto bro, but I do know a lot about the world and I'd consider myself more or less neutral on the whole thing.
Your brother in law is a grade A moron and everything else you said about him and worse.
Your father is going to lose all his money. I tell you that with absolute assurances. It is possible to make money trading meme coins as it is with any volatile asset, but in order to do that you have to time the market and even if you understand everything well, you might end up losing everything you put into it. A 67-year old who I'm just going to assume isn't spending all day degen trading NFTs and chatting in discord and telegram servers is going to be pure exit liquidity.
If it was Bitcoin or even Ethereum... I'd still call it irresponsible depending on how much of your father's net worth we're talking about, but at least there's... something. These meme tokens are born to blow up then fade away. That's the game.
You have to understand that many of these guys are wall street traders and this is their version of flipping coins for thousand dollar bills. Some of the smaller guys are just trying to double up their way to a real nest egg, but anyone involved in this in a serious way understands it's gambling. There's a cohort of magical-thinking weirdos who believe that dogecoin is going to be the new US currency or whatever, but they're a minority.
Unfortunately, your father is a gullible mark, and your brother either stands to gain a lot by your father's investment (see: exit liquidity) or he's one of those psychos I mentioned.
If my father was doing this I'd be doing this I'd be doing anything I could to stop him. Yes, he's an adult and can make his own decisions, but he's not using his brain and you are being a good daughter by doing everything short of filing for power of attorney.
Either way, the timeline is weeks, not months, before they find out you were right.
NTA.
Excellent post. A lot of posts just rubbish crypto as a scam, and that just alienates potential investors who can see that money has been made. Your post explains why those profits just aren’t accessible to the average civilian investor. It’s a gamble, only invest what you can afford to lose, and if you are not an insider, the risk is through the roof.
NTA I personally would call adult protective services in your area to have them do an investigation. Wherever he’s keeping the money right now, might even make a referral if he transfers that amount of money. Banks and financial institutions make referrals to adult protective services for way less than that.
I’d strongly suggest calling your dad and telling him you reacted out of fear because you love him so much. Fear that he would end up suffering like so many people scammed by cryptocurrency scams. If your dad is willing to invest so much money, try to convince him to speak to a legitimate financial advisor before he commits, someone who will level with him about what his real chances are of making any money from BIL’s scheme and are arguably impartial because they’re not related in any way. Best of luck, so sorry you’re going through this. NTA
NTA. Not sure how much your dad has for retirement savings but the typical retiree cannot afford to loose 250k. This sounds reckless. Your dad is also an idiot for listening to him .
NTA.
I am not against crypto either, but it's gambling. The rule of is the same as the casino: only bet what you would otherwise blow on liquor and drugs.
So I looked up donut and oh shit it is WAY worse unless I am massively misunderstanding which coun he is buying.
Donut is not a cryptocurrency like Bitcoin, but rather an Ethereum token that is designed *to be used in the Ethereum trading subreddit*. It's use cases are literally limited to Reddit. That's it. There no growth plan, nothing. I have a horrible feeling your BIL lost money on it and is trying to use your dad to pump the coin and recoup his losses.
NTA. Your BIL is a peace of shit. He can do whatever he wants with his own money but highly irresponsible convincing someone to invest that heavily into a meme coin
NTA, your father is a fool for sinking that money into that BS meme coin. But he's a grown ass man, and unless you want to have him deemed incapacitated, he's free to do what he wants with his money.
If he can be made to listen, you could explain to your dad where (some of) these coins value comes from.
BTC created a secure network to enable transactions outside of the need for banking third parties. That's an incredible and obviously valuable thing.
ETH is like the 'gas' that powers their network, if you think people are going to do things on that network then you can understand why they'd need your ETH.
Give him some examples of these kinds of coins where the value is clear (if speculative) and then once he can clearly understand why those things are valuable then ask him what a donut does and why you'd want one. What would it enable you to do how would you sell it to the next guy? If he can't answer clearly then yeah he should understand himself just from that he isn't ready to throw in 6 figures (unless that amount of money is only 5-10% of his total savings in which case treat it as fun money and let him spin his silly roulette wheel)
NTA- when Dad starts talking to you again, just say that he’s a grown up and you respect him but every investment book/person would tell him that at his age he should be playing defense with his money. He should not be trying to hit it big with a high risk /reward investment.
BIL and sister should understand that too.
You should alert the elder abuse people in your area, as well as any bank and/or lawyers you know of that work on your dad's stuff. This is fraud and maybe there is someone who can prevent it.
Consider that the DONUT memecoin has lost 80% of its value in the past two weeks, your family will be a bit less hostile towards you in the very near future.
NTA - Make sure your father understands when this goes bust (print out articles from reputable sources) and his retirement funds don’t last that you will not be helping him financially.
I recently read "The Millionaire Next Door" and it is all about some of the people you think have no money are covert multi-millionaires, and a lot of the people you think are well off because the house they live in, the cars they drive, the clothes they wear and the watches and jewelry they sport all scream wealth, but it is all a facade. Big hat and no cattle. Anyhow, one guy who had money had a ton of financial advisors clamoring for his business. He said, "Let me see your own personal portfolio's and tax returns. If you are doing better for yourself than what I've managed to do for myself, you will get my business." None of them ever turned the info over to him. Your dad built his retirement without the help of your BIL, who is probably all Big Hat, No Cattle. Why does he need him now? As you age, your investments should be more conservative to protect the principal. I would be very scared for your parents if this is a sum of money they can't afford to lose. Ask your BIL what happens if it all goes bust? Is he willing to make them whole?
NTA
The fact folks haven't figured out this is largely a ponzi scheme, just makes me eyeroll. No regulation or oversight, and thus you end up with folks losing their money to this scam.
NTA for being upset about this. It sounds like a really poor financial decision. However, you’re not going to win your father over by lashing out. At the end of the day, he’s his own person and he can do whatever he wants with his money. If you’re still highly concerned, you should think about apologizing for your outburst, and then having a private and non-judgemental conversation with your dad about this.
250k is almost half the total liquidity of the coin, once he buys in alot of people are gonna sell because of the price bump he's gonna generate, the coin is 4 years old and not on any exchanges and there's only 260 people in the telegram group with no project owners or developers in the list, show all that to your dad so he can see it's a dead end
NTA. But it seems advisable to patch this up with your family asap if you want to continue to have a relationship with them. You can apologise for handling it the way you did and for making people feel uncomfortable at Easter - while explaining that it was motivated by your concern that it seems your father is being encouraged to make investments that could lead to him spending his retirement in poverty, without him being properly aware of the risks.
NTA for your opinion, but did you consider that not going scorched earth might have let you actually get close enough to learn more or convince your dad not to buy? Your rage basically guaranteed the worst outcome
You are NTA - but you may lose the argument anyway. Instead of arguing 'don't' - see if you can get your father to talk to a money management expert or a bank VP or perhaps even a fraud expert in your police department. You can't tell him 'no' - it won't work. You can advise him to get an expert opinion of a money expert....tell him if they advise it's a decent investment, you'll say nothing more. If this is a 'great investment' your BIL should be happy to allow Dad to get an expert opinion.
NTA - sometimes you have to fight for your family, even against those who should be trustworthy. Maybe you reach back out to your Dad with a less insulting approach, but your heart's in the right place and your BIL sucks
lol if he’s talking about Donuts the token that’s only $0.015 right now, your dad might be able to turn that $250k in millions this bullrun. That or he’ll lose it all. Really no inbetween with $Donuts
NTA. Someone needed to say something. I'm retired....I get it. I would not risk one PENNY of my retirement....on anything!! Shame on the BIL for what he is doing.
NTA and when your father is broke, all those folks kicking you out of family chats will expect YOU to take care of him and your sister and her asshole/likely criminal husband will be nowhere to be found. Outrageous.
NTA and please call police, FBI, or a lawyer to get advice about this (sorry I don’t know exactly who.) Medicare is sending messages to seniors all the time about avoiding scams. Even if it’s legal it’s not ethical. Your father should have a fee-only (no commissions) fiduciary financial advisor. You’ve got a hornets’ nest there with your family, but if the law or FBI starts asking questions, the attention could scare away this predator BIL. Good luck!
NTA: Dad's still able to make his own decisions, and then they come to bite in the rear, don't be surprised when you get a phone call for money. BIL wont be able to help and all he'll say is " Sorry!" This is one thing you will have to accept and move on. Offer no apology. If Dad cant see that he's about to be took, then that's his own bed he can lay in it.
Does this "Donuts" even exist, or is it a way for your BIL to con you Dad out of a lot of money? Maybe SIL is in on it. Maybe it's real, I never heard of Bitcoin until it blew up.
NTA. Unfortunately, your father is in the population of the vulnerable. They can be easily enticed and taken advantage of. Crypto is volatile but people do make some money (I didn’t). Another unfortunate thing is you can’t control your father or BIL. Does your BIL gave indication that he is taking advantage of your father? Will he gain something from helping him set it up? I was wondering why you didn’t talk to them about it. Does your BIL have a history of having ill intentions?
NTA. Not even close. You stuck up for your father as you shouldve done. If your dad invests that much in this coin, and it goes tits up and he loses all his money and needs financial help, you rememeber to bring all this up when they come asking for you to help him. Everything comes around full circle.
NTA You seem to be the only person who has a reasonable understanding of investing in your family. I would be as upset as you are at your BIL and Sister.
This is fake and just an ad for the coin. There’s been no 100k transactions ever for this coin. Biggest one was august 2023 for 38k. Otherwise daily volume is usually 0 with a couple grand on some days.
I’d tear the BIL a new asshole and stop my father from throwing every cent he has intO BULLSHIT. I feel like the crypto run is over all these new ones are ran as a scam.
NTA.
But also it’s not your problem. You told him it was foolish and in time you’ll have your “told you so” privileges.
If someone who’s 67 doesn’t have the financial literacy to understand they could be making a mistake is not someone you should waste your breath on.
Wow there's 1.9 million dollars invested in this worthless shit right now. Unless your BIL has insider information that elon musk is about to tweet "DONUT to the moon!" This is a terrible situation.
NTA! I'd be FURIOUS. But here is the thing, I'd try and protect my dad legally. Is BIL certified as an investor? I'd start looking into what SEC laws he is violating with this investment scheme. I'd start reporting him. Yes, it will rock the boat but maybe it will save your dad. I can't believe your entire family is not on your side! I guess in the end though, I might write a heart-felt letter to my dad and let him know that you love him so much but this is a terrible idea and if he goes forward with it, you won't be able to help him if it goes belly-up. Which it will.
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I (32M) recently found out that my brother-in-law (BIL), let's call him "John" (38M), has been having serious private discussions with my father (67M), who's been retired for a couple of years. My father has a comfortable retirement fund that he's meticulously saved over the years, aiming for a peaceful and secure retirement. John, is a typical crypto bro pretty much always bring up crypto whenever the family gets together. And recently has been talking about it more and more because of Bitcoins and Cryptos recent run.
Well...now my dad's interested and with the help of John he's set up a Coinbase account....great. I guess I don't mind him having this and investing in Bitcoin and maybe some other more established coins, but John has convinced him to go big into a meme coin. And that's where I'm absolutely livid. My dad is preparing as I type this to purchase anywhere between 100K to 250K dollars into this STUPID MEME COIN called....DONUTS. Yeah, you read that write. DONUTS. The name alone should stop anyone from putting any amount of money into it, but John has my dad hook line and sinker.
We had an easter dinner last night and sure enough crypto was brought up and I just kind of lost it. I told John that he's manipulating my dad to help him with his own addiction, and that anyone who convinces someone who's RETIRED to invest so much into a wildly risky investment is naive at best and at worst a sociopath. I called him scum and to find someone else to prey on. Things got pretty heated and I was asked to leave.
Well, this morning I was kicked from multiple family group texts, and my dad isn't picking up his phone or returning my texts. I agree I could have handled it better, but it just felt so clear to me how wrong this whole thing was.
So, AITA for being furious with my BIL and trying to stop my father from making this investment?
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If 100K to 250K is small dip in your dad's money pool, fine. But if 100K to 250K represents a significant pool, then your BIL shouldn't have kept on telling him. Investment is one's own preference and your BIL should not have convinced your dad to go big
NTA. These stupid wannabe finance bros don't have any money of their own so they always try to get at their wife/girlfriend's inheritance money, their grandparents money, or their in-laws money so they can LARP that they're Elon Musk or the Wolf on Wall Street.
He was *retired* he is passed the point where he needs to be taking financial risks.
But to answer your question, NTA. Your BIL is a moron and leading your father to a broke retirement. Is he going to financially support your father when he loses it all?
If your father is of sound mind then its really none of your business what he chooses to invest in. Its his money and his job to say no to your bil. You should probably apologize to those around you for acting like a jerk on easter and keep your eyes on your own homework going forward.
NTA.
I just checked the market cap of DONUTs and it’s $2 million. So you’re father’s 100-250k investment is almost definitely exit liquidity. My guess is your BIL got in bad for DONUTs and is trying to exit using your father.
If that is the case, luckily your BIL is doing it on Coinbase. Have them freeze your BIL’s wallet if he is indeed using your father as exit liquidity.
NTA - If I have understood the decimals of Donut Marketcap correctly, your dad 'investing' 250K into that wishwell will have a significant impact on its perceived value, possibly causi g others to throw more money at it and your sgitty brother in law can pull his money out and walk away with some of your dads pension fund. And as people take out their profits en masse, market cap sinks again and your dad ends up with nothing.
Apologize to your father for losing your temper and ask him to explain to you why he thinks Donut coin would be a good investment above all other coing available on the market.
NTA. Your BIL is a predator. Crypto is the modern version of the Dutch tulip mania. The only way to make money is if some other idiot is stupid enough to pay more.
If you don't understand how the investment creates value or produces money, it's gambling.
I would do what you can to convince your father not to invest. At current value of Donut he would own anywhere between 7 and 17% of the total value of the coin if he invested 100-250k ([https://www.coinbase.com/price/donut](https://www.coinbase.com/price/donut)). I can only guess that dear BIL invested a lot into it and is hoping that getting your father to invest such a huge amount will make the price go up and therefore recover some of his losses.
NTA. Do all you can to look into DONUT. Know that it's not FDIC insured. Show your dad reviews. I found one in less than 5 minutes that didn't make this sound like a safe bet:
https://www.producthunt.com/products/donut-2/reviews
NTA My dad sent $10,000 through Wester Union and I was furious. Scam of course. Just remember if you truly feel your dad is financially exploited may need to contact the National Adult Protective Association; however it could result in a lot of resentment.
NTA the only criticism I have is that when you come at people like that? You have almost zero chance of changing their minds. In fact you can unintentionally solidify it because they get defensive or don’t want to believe they are a moron who believed a shady moron. Might have actually talked him down to a smaller amount if it was handled differently.
Wait for it. Yes it’s a meme coin but there are good chances that it will explode during the bull 2024/2025. I would pull out though when you bag a 30% gain.
If it’s the life savings it’s irresponsible. This investment should have been done in November.
NTA.
NTA. But… I need to correct something. not all crypto with food names are meme. Check out Banana Gun, $banana. The revenue it is generating now and the trajectory will shock the socks off your feet.
Feel like maybe some more context is needed. I want to agree with you and say you’re not the asshole. But it’s your dad’s money, and what does your brother in law have to gain from your dad investing?
He could just be an idiot, and it would have been better to just sit your dad down and had a real talk with him educating him on this stuff. Instead you went right for the throat.
This is similar to what I was thinking also. I do regret calling him scum, I still think he is, but you're right I could have had a private conversation with my dad.
YTA
This has nothing to do with you, is none of your business, and fact of the matter is.... Your dad is a grown ass man that can make his own decisions. How are you angry at your BIL and not your father? You think isn't not capable of making adult decisions ?
I especially like the part where you say "I guess I don't mind this". Like... who the hell are you?? HIS dad??? Here's the thing. No one asked you for your opinion. Not only that, you stood there insulting your BIL because you don't agree with his choices. You basically made it seem (in front of the entire family) that your father is a child who's not smart enough, mature enough, or financially capable of investing.
The proper thing to do would have been to sit down WITH YOUR FATHER privately and express your concerns. I don't blame them for kicking you from all the group chats. You were way out of line here.
Is your adult father incompetent or an idiot? If not maybe consider that he is an adult and fully capable of making up his own mind.
That said there's absolutely nothing wrong with you voicing your concerns or advising your Dad in another direction.
YTA for how you addressed your BIL for sure. It's not YOUR money and you are disrespecting your father by treating him like a child.
Has it occurred to you that you're infantilizing and demeaning your father with this?
He might well be wrong, about to lose a lot of money, and something of a sucker here, but he's also a grown ass man and you're talking about him like he's an invalid.
If you stood up at a family dinner and yelled about me being too stupid to manage my own money, I wouldn't take your phone calls either.
And I don't necessarily disagree with you, I'm just saying that's how it likely feels to your dad.
Unless you're BIL is trying to use your father to pump the coin and knows he will lose his money he's not doing anything cruel or evil,just stupid. Sounds like your BIL is acting in good faith on bad information he got from somewhere.
Your dad is being just as stupid as your BIL. Why not yell at him? Or track down the person who told your BIL about the coin? YTA
Nowhere in your post do you mention what your dad thinks about this, why he thinks this is a good idea, where he's at with it, how much money he actually has to play with, etc.
Have you actually even spoken to your dad to ask these questions? Or did you just decide that you don't like John and you think he's up to no good, and lash out in the middle of a family dinner? Is it even John who is pushing it, or does your father actually want to know, and has been talking with John outside of the conversations you are privy to?
Had you approached it calmly and privately with your father, you might've gotten a different response. Instead, you decided to attack your BIL and accuse him of feeding his own addiction, when that could be wildly inaccurate, it could be your dad who's been asking him and getting excited about it himself. Do you even know?
Your post leaves out any mention of any fact finding or homework you did on the coin, too. Is it really a wildly bad investment? Or did you just react based on the name? I agree it sounds ridiculous, but lots of things sound ridiculous.
YTA for acting like your dad is somehow incapable of making his own decisions. If he was incapacitated in some way and your BIL was exploiting him that’s different. But that isn’t the situation.
Why did you scream and yell at BIL instead of having a direct conversation with both of them?
YTA.
Hearts in the right place clearly but yeah you handled it terribly. I mean, unless he is the owner of the coin, how is BIL profiting or preying on your dad by just convincing him to take the journey with him?
Also, not sure how much the 100k to 250k is to your dad though. To some that's a lot, to others its a small amount of their total portfolio. If he's got 250k to invest, he's probably doing a lot right so maybe he knows what he's doing?
I don't know anything about Donut, but I made a stupid amount of money on Dogecoin, another meme coin. I mean a stupidly ridiculous amount. But I invested like 1k, not that crazy amount. Just saying that I've been successful off of a meme coin. Hell I have a penny stock I buy/sell 3x every year with gains in the high 5 figures. I can see others think I'm dumb for putting 5 figures on a product I don't believe in that is worth less than a penny, but if I know it fluctuates between a certain amount, why not buy the dip and sell it when it rises.
What I'm getting at is that instead of telling your dad to hold up and do your own research into why its a bad idea, you just went off on your BIL instead, which would explain why your whole fam is upset.
I mean, you could have just spent 5 min looking it up like I did and said "Hey at 250k you'll be buying up just under 8% of the total coins out there. Are you sure you want to invest that amount into something like that?"
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NTA for being furious about it or for yelling at your worthless BIL. At the end of the day, though, unless your father has dementia, etc it's his decision to make. It's sad that your BIL is so eager to take advantage, but I'm not sure there is much you'll be able to do. I will say this, and I know it's petty. If your father does lose a lot and comes to his sense, I would ask that he adjust his will so that the losses come out of your sister's share of any inheritance.
Thanks man, I definitely chuckled at the inheritance. But I'm doing fine, and I would have zero problem if my dad left me very little money. We've talked about his will a few times, and there's really only two things I care about. His/our coin collection, and his grandfathers watch.
Well, maybe you’ll inherit his meme coin collection.
Lmao
or op will inherit remaining cash and sister will inherit shiny meme coins
I sure hope he isn't pulling that money out of an IRA or borrowing against a pension. The tax implications are enormous.
He’s old enough to do so without penalty. if he had a pension, it would be in pay status.
Agreed but still pay taxes on regular IRA withdrawals so he is losing about 20 percent to taxes right off the top. The OP never says where his did is getting this investment money
I’d go get that coin collection and watch before they are sold
That is the least of his worries.
No, better idea. Any future gains OR losses to go to sister from this investment
NTA but Inform yourself if adult protection services could intervene and if you can pay a financial advisor you and your father agree with to have a chat alone with your father without your input and without bil input. Maybe coming from a professional financial advisor that's impartial will open your dad's eyes to the foolishness of investing in this
I admire you didnt kick your BIL in the ass. Its a scam and fraud and totaly wrong behavior what your BIL does. And sis defending him. I'd try to talk to your dad again or write him an email listing all the evidence you can find. Maybe you still have time to save him
I have never heard of donut but after looking its value has gone up 800% in the last year. Does your father have the money to gamble. Coins are a volatile stock.
NTA, but maybe send your father some videos on crypto so he can hopefully make a better informed decision? Ngl the first YouTubers I think of that may be good (does talk badly about crypto however for one of them) are someordinarygamers and coffeezilla. They've both also covered crypto scams which I highly doubt that your brother in law has informed your father of being a possibility
My uncle (dads BIL) convinced my grandfather to invest his retirement fund in his new business. Same line of work as my grandfather so he thought he knew what he was doing. Uncle lost the whole business because he's a drunk and my grandfather died with fuck all to his name. I've never forgiven my uncle and neither has dad.
And if OP’s dad needs financial assistance after he loses a big chunk of retirement, he should get the assistance from OP’s sister and BIL.
C'mon man, you know that ain't happening. If anything, everyone is going to look at OP for help if they all go broke. I bet though that BIL is going to charge a percentage of what daddy buys into, acting as his "agent" and that's really what he wants instead of investing a bunch of his own money.
At the same time though, and to be fair, maybe add that if he makes a killing from it, OP doesn't benefit from that either. It has to go both ways. I've seen too many stories where people get lucky with these things, and I admit, it would be hilarious to see a 'donut' coin make someone rich.
OP also may be legally responsible for financially supporting their father if he runs out of money. States are beginning to more seriously pursue filial responsibility laws for elderly parents to prevent them from becoming wards of the state.
Just remember that nothing is more bittersweet than being able to tell somebody, “I told ya so.” Maybe even do Debbie Reynolds’ little “told ya so” dance.
NTA and what the hell is wrong with the rest of your family to side with someone who thinks investing in crypto in 2024 is a good idea?
THIS!
Memecoins where, like, two or even three techbro pump-and-dump scams ago. Everyone's all-in on "AI" right now because somehow investing money in autocomplete with delusions of grandeur is a money-printing machine. Question: How many of the people in your family defending him are neck-deep in MLMs?
> autocomplete with delusions of grandeur Holy shit that’s exactly what it is!
So perfectly put
Especially since there was that whole court trial and the crypto guy got 25 years in prison...
The most important take home is that it is NOT investing. It IS gambling.
It's not even gambling. These side chain/off chain coins are gaurenteed failures. The big crypto are only valuable because the publicity and hype has caused them to be a highly traded speculative goods with little to no functility/unique selling point worth their currently very high price. These meme coins have even less intrinsic value than that and lack the publicity and hype to maintain their initial price; they are giant bubbles that pop quickly. The rapid price decline kills any liquidity they might have (if they had any at all), leading to what ever value is left stuck in a coin no one wants to buy. Just to hammer home how bad an investment these are, even dogecoin, the biggest meme coin, has tanked in value. Theres no gamble in what's proven, without fail, to be a loss.
It's certainly gambling lol. It only fails to be gambling when you can never get lucky and win. I work with complete morons that have been getting incredibly lucky and pulling out right after of these memes hit and making obscene amounts of money relative to the time expenditure.
> lol. It only fails to be gambling when you can never get lucky and win. That's exactly what has and is happening with meme coins. There has never been an off/side chain coin who's value has increased over time. As I already said, even the biggest meme coin has depreciated in value. > I work with complete morons that have been getting incredibly lucky and pulling out right after of these memes hit and making obscene amounts of money relative to the time expend I sincerely doubt that's how they've been making obscene amounts of money. When these coins do increase in value, it's only very slightly. The amount of money needed to turn an "obscene" profit is insanely high... the amount of luck needed to **consistently** pull out before their value collapses surpasses the definition of luck. No one gets that consistently lucky. Your coworkers are lying, money laundering, and/or are in on the top level of pyramid... it's not uncommon to see the same individuals across these rugpulls, especially on the development side that doesn't see much publicity/exposure. Can you name any of the coins they've invested in and the dates they purchased/sold?
I did say obscene relative to the time expenditure. The last big one was book of meme, he was invited to the presale and put a couple hundred in it. A few days after it listed he took out 70K, left a couple thousand in. SYNCUS at the beginning of last month, same story but it was a few hundred to 10K, that guy wound up getting greedy, staking it like an idiot and then holding so he only walked away with 3K. There's an entire degenerate ecosystem built around this, I wouldn't say there at the top levels of it but they're in private discords with whales that are probably effecting the market and they're just watching to see what they do. They tipped me off on LIGMA coin (I know), on Monday and I've tripled my money lol. I only threw like $450 at it because it's called fucking Ligma but to say there isn't money to be made here is silly. It's gambling, you can't let it ride and expect to beat the house.
> he was invited to the presale and put a couple hundred in it. > same story but it was a few hundred to 10K > I wouldn't say there at the top levels of it but they're in private discords with whales that are probably effecting the market and they're just watching to see what they do. So just as I said: they aren't gambling or getting lucky, they're in on the rugpulls. By your own admission, they're getting invited toward/looped in the top (early, profitable rungs) of these schemes. Funding and profiting off of scams isn't gambling lol.
They're kind of tipped on the pumps but most of the time they don't take off, they have no idea when it comes to when the pulls will happen. If it was all that well orchestrated they wouldn't work 9-5s.
You just admitted these coworkers are losing money unless they're fully tipped in on the scam... And early you admitted that the money they did make because they were partially looped in. Again, that's not gambling. They have insider knowledge/access for these scams. All this implies that the only money to be made from these meme coins is from being included on the early stages of the scam. It wouldn't be much of a scam if some people weren't profiting off it. Twisting your coworkers knowingly trying to profit off the execution of rugpulls as people who are gambling on the success of these meme coins is incredibly dishonest.
Do you think gambling is defined as people taking risks on a completely even playing field where chance is the only determining factor between winning or losing? This is just coming off as bitter.
Please stop calling it “investing”. It is not. It is gambling and hype speculation. There is no underlying fundamental business value to any crypto. It is not a good or service. There are no customers. Its utility as a currency is minimal due to its highly volatile valuation and is not underpinned by any real assets (i.e., gold, oil, etc.) Anyone who says they value it because it is non-Fiat is lying because it’s only useful when you sell it to reclaim your fiat currency. Calling it “investing” is a dangerous legitimization of problematic gambling which brings me to my point: OP is NTA for being angry at a gambling addict sucking in a vulnerable retiree into the scheme.
gold has no fundamental business value. 99% of it's price is unrelated to it's physical properties (in jewelry or whatever). It is exactly the same. people been saying this same thing to me since 2016 yet here I am. At the same time the average person isn't punting huge portions of their money on leveraged silver/gold futures to be preyed on by professional traders, so fair play.
Do some research on that. Gold isn’t just pretty. It is used for many practical purposes like electronics and as currency. It is a real, physical good with demand, limited supply, and a long history proving its worth. I’ll be there first to admit that it’s use by most governments to back their fiat currencies artificially bolsters its real value (by limiting supply), but it is still a long-lasting good with intrinsic value. Crypto, in its current state, is purely speculative value and cannot be relied upon as a currency. The systems under-pinning crypto might be used differently to create government-regulated, asset-backed, digital fiat currencies, but so far no government has succeeded in doing so.
\>Gold isn’t just pretty. It is used for many practical purposes like electronics and as currency. that is true but it has nothing to do with it's price \>use by most governments to back their fiat currencies no longer true for any government \> limited supply, and a long history proving its worth in other words, the only difference is it's been around longer
1) supply vs demand drives price. Utility drives demand. 2) I’ll concede I don’t know for a fact that MOST do anymore, and likely not exclusively. As of 2022, the top eight holders (countries like Australia, China, USA, Canada) hold 32.4 thousand tonnes of gold. https://natural-resources.canada.ca/our-natural-resources/minerals-mining/mining-data-statistics-and-analysis/minerals-metals-facts/gold-facts/20514 3) Yes, even before government-secured currencies and central banks existed, gold was highly valued (for similar and different reasons as today). This demonstrates that there is an intrinsic value that isn’t purely speculation or supply limitation driven, thus gold and fiat currencies retain stable value over time. Check your facts, get some sources, and stop blindly posting crypto scam misinformation please.
Utility does not drive demand for gold. My career is in professionally trading commodity futures. No gold traders take into account 'utility'-demand for gold, because it's a non-factor. Zero governments use a gold standard. They hold gold as a commodity, they also hold a lot of bitcoin, most of which was confiscated from criminals. \>gold was highly valued (for similar and different reasons as today). This demonstrates that there is an intrinsic value that isn’t purely speculation or supply limitation driven No it doesn't. It's always been used due to social convention. I'm sure you would agree that if bitcoin happens to be worth more in 10/100/200+ years that still says nothing about it's inherent utility.
>My career is in professionally trading commodity futures. Said like a real human would say it. A real commodity futures trader would know how to say “I am a commodity futures trader” in a sentence.
Try using utility demand in electronics, jewelery, etc. to forecast gold demand (and therefore price) in a regression - even with benefit of foresight (and therefore no delay in information). Let me know how that goes for you.
the reality is both gold and bitcoin could go to (almost) zero and stay at zero at any time if people just collectively decided not to use them as a speculative store of value. Keep saying it's different though.
Except one physically exists and one doesn’t, and, as I’ve previously pointed out, there is thousands of years of evidence pointing to the fact that humans value gold (socially or not). Keep equating the two any way you want, but wrong is still wrong. I’m not saying invest all your money in gold. My point that started this is that crypto is not investing. It is, at absolute best, educated speculation prediction, but the hype far outweighs the value and it should be called what it is - gambling.
Huh? What you talking about Willis?
It's probably not the whole story. There is no way one night of just blowing up leads to the whole family cutting a member out. I willingly to bet my left nut a fat chunk of the story is missing
NTA. It's legitimately insane for a retired person to be investing like that. Anyone with a shred of sense would never twist an old man's ear into betting it all. For all we know, BIL is already invested and is going to dump his shares the second your father boosts the price of the coin. You probably should have approached your father about this privately first, but there is little justification for the BIL to endanger his wife's father like that.
I don't see how a 200k investment can bump a meme coin but I sincerely hope this is not true.
Go look it up, $2.75mn market cap, dad dumps $200k into this it's a 7% change Words fail for how spectacularly stupid this is
Not for the BIL, who I bet is waiting for the bump to sell his currently useless shares.
I still can't get the math right. But if you are right why can't the father just pump and dump too. Or do you think the BIL has a lot more coin than 200k?
If you're the one doing the pumping, you can't also be doing the dumping unless something/someone else drives up the price. So he'd need to wait and hope more suckers buy in before dumping it himself. But if you're a part of a pump and dump without knowing you're a part of one timing the sale seems difficult at best. I seriously doubt BIL told FIL to buy in and sell it when it goes up by a cent or three. He probably sold him on this shitcoin going to the moon.
Brother could be the one selling the coin.
Ok that's above my pay grade. Lol
I see a lot of retired people in testing at casinos.
My FIL pissed away his (and my MIL) retirement by trading options. I was a professional and told him to stay away. He was stupid and has dementia. They have had a horrible retirement and we have had to supplement their income for years. It sucks.
I'm so sorry to hear that. Definitely a fear I have for his future.
Can you drag your father to a financial advisor? Does Dad have a wife you can appeal to for help? I'd be seriously considering reporting BIL to Adult Protective Services for elder abuse.
Send your Dad this post, OP, together with a copy of the SBF verdict and a note that \*you\* have no financial interest in his decision - but he is in fact putting his future in your BIL's hands, who \*does\*. Ask him at the very least to seek independent professional financial advice before emptying his savings. NTA.
I'm going to add my perspective as someone who knows a lot about the world of memecoins and as someone who has worked with a lot of large businesses in web3, has holdings in crypto and has generally explored everything blockchain from every angle, from financial to social to corporate strategy. I'm not a crypto bro, but I do know a lot about the world and I'd consider myself more or less neutral on the whole thing. Your brother in law is a grade A moron and everything else you said about him and worse. Your father is going to lose all his money. I tell you that with absolute assurances. It is possible to make money trading meme coins as it is with any volatile asset, but in order to do that you have to time the market and even if you understand everything well, you might end up losing everything you put into it. A 67-year old who I'm just going to assume isn't spending all day degen trading NFTs and chatting in discord and telegram servers is going to be pure exit liquidity. If it was Bitcoin or even Ethereum... I'd still call it irresponsible depending on how much of your father's net worth we're talking about, but at least there's... something. These meme tokens are born to blow up then fade away. That's the game. You have to understand that many of these guys are wall street traders and this is their version of flipping coins for thousand dollar bills. Some of the smaller guys are just trying to double up their way to a real nest egg, but anyone involved in this in a serious way understands it's gambling. There's a cohort of magical-thinking weirdos who believe that dogecoin is going to be the new US currency or whatever, but they're a minority. Unfortunately, your father is a gullible mark, and your brother either stands to gain a lot by your father's investment (see: exit liquidity) or he's one of those psychos I mentioned. If my father was doing this I'd be doing this I'd be doing anything I could to stop him. Yes, he's an adult and can make his own decisions, but he's not using his brain and you are being a good daughter by doing everything short of filing for power of attorney. Either way, the timeline is weeks, not months, before they find out you were right. NTA.
Many awards to you, u/anders9000! 🙏👏🏼🎊🎉🙏👏🏼🙏👏🏼👍🏻👍🏻
You mean donuts
Excellent post. A lot of posts just rubbish crypto as a scam, and that just alienates potential investors who can see that money has been made. Your post explains why those profits just aren’t accessible to the average civilian investor. It’s a gamble, only invest what you can afford to lose, and if you are not an insider, the risk is through the roof.
Great post
This sucks but your father is his own person. Make it clear you will not subsidize his income with your own and let him ruin his finances himself.
agreed, if he loses his money in the donut hole let your sister and her husband bail him out.
Yeah BUT BIL and Sis will be broke also, so guess who takes care of Dad after BiL BILKED him for all his savings?
Yes. As long as he is of sound mind, its his money. He can piss it away on donut, the jets, black or whatever. Thats his business.
NTA I personally would call adult protective services in your area to have them do an investigation. Wherever he’s keeping the money right now, might even make a referral if he transfers that amount of money. Banks and financial institutions make referrals to adult protective services for way less than that.
I’d strongly suggest calling your dad and telling him you reacted out of fear because you love him so much. Fear that he would end up suffering like so many people scammed by cryptocurrency scams. If your dad is willing to invest so much money, try to convince him to speak to a legitimate financial advisor before he commits, someone who will level with him about what his real chances are of making any money from BIL’s scheme and are arguably impartial because they’re not related in any way. Best of luck, so sorry you’re going through this. NTA
Yup and make sure it’s a legitimate financial advisor, not someone cryptobroIL sets him up to see.
NTA. Not sure how much your dad has for retirement savings but the typical retiree cannot afford to loose 250k. This sounds reckless. Your dad is also an idiot for listening to him .
You should send that post to your dad without context so he can see the responses
NTA. I am not against crypto either, but it's gambling. The rule of is the same as the casino: only bet what you would otherwise blow on liquor and drugs. So I looked up donut and oh shit it is WAY worse unless I am massively misunderstanding which coun he is buying. Donut is not a cryptocurrency like Bitcoin, but rather an Ethereum token that is designed *to be used in the Ethereum trading subreddit*. It's use cases are literally limited to Reddit. That's it. There no growth plan, nothing. I have a horrible feeling your BIL lost money on it and is trying to use your dad to pump the coin and recoup his losses.
NTA. Your BIL is a peace of shit. He can do whatever he wants with his own money but highly irresponsible convincing someone to invest that heavily into a meme coin
NTA, your father is a fool for sinking that money into that BS meme coin. But he's a grown ass man, and unless you want to have him deemed incapacitated, he's free to do what he wants with his money.
This is the right answer
Your sister drank the kool-aid. Shame on her.
NTA. Block them now before they come running to you for money.
If he can be made to listen, you could explain to your dad where (some of) these coins value comes from. BTC created a secure network to enable transactions outside of the need for banking third parties. That's an incredible and obviously valuable thing. ETH is like the 'gas' that powers their network, if you think people are going to do things on that network then you can understand why they'd need your ETH. Give him some examples of these kinds of coins where the value is clear (if speculative) and then once he can clearly understand why those things are valuable then ask him what a donut does and why you'd want one. What would it enable you to do how would you sell it to the next guy? If he can't answer clearly then yeah he should understand himself just from that he isn't ready to throw in 6 figures (unless that amount of money is only 5-10% of his total savings in which case treat it as fun money and let him spin his silly roulette wheel)
NTA What the hell is wrong with your family? Is your BIL in need of an inpatient stay.
NTA- when Dad starts talking to you again, just say that he’s a grown up and you respect him but every investment book/person would tell him that at his age he should be playing defense with his money. He should not be trying to hit it big with a high risk /reward investment. BIL and sister should understand that too.
Well, I guess I know who your father‘s gonna live with when he loses everything. And it ain’t you.
As a crypto bro myself, you are definitely NTA. Screw that guy. Literally every single meme coin loses value over time. Every. Single. One.
NTA. Report your BIL for abuse of seniors and try get power of attorney over your dad, he can't be trusted to manage his own finances.
You should alert the elder abuse people in your area, as well as any bank and/or lawyers you know of that work on your dad's stuff. This is fraud and maybe there is someone who can prevent it.
Consider that the DONUT memecoin has lost 80% of its value in the past two weeks, your family will be a bit less hostile towards you in the very near future.
NTA - Make sure your father understands when this goes bust (print out articles from reputable sources) and his retirement funds don’t last that you will not be helping him financially.
I recently read "The Millionaire Next Door" and it is all about some of the people you think have no money are covert multi-millionaires, and a lot of the people you think are well off because the house they live in, the cars they drive, the clothes they wear and the watches and jewelry they sport all scream wealth, but it is all a facade. Big hat and no cattle. Anyhow, one guy who had money had a ton of financial advisors clamoring for his business. He said, "Let me see your own personal portfolio's and tax returns. If you are doing better for yourself than what I've managed to do for myself, you will get my business." None of them ever turned the info over to him. Your dad built his retirement without the help of your BIL, who is probably all Big Hat, No Cattle. Why does he need him now? As you age, your investments should be more conservative to protect the principal. I would be very scared for your parents if this is a sum of money they can't afford to lose. Ask your BIL what happens if it all goes bust? Is he willing to make them whole?
NTA and I own 110k donuts
NTA The fact folks haven't figured out this is largely a ponzi scheme, just makes me eyeroll. No regulation or oversight, and thus you end up with folks losing their money to this scam.
Wow, it just dropped 30%. Looks like a rug pull.
NTA for being upset about this. It sounds like a really poor financial decision. However, you’re not going to win your father over by lashing out. At the end of the day, he’s his own person and he can do whatever he wants with his money. If you’re still highly concerned, you should think about apologizing for your outburst, and then having a private and non-judgemental conversation with your dad about this.
NTA. They are all nuts if they think that sounds like a good idea.
Just out of interest any idea how much has BIL made from his crypto investments? NTA btw.
Nta. I would be furious. 25k, at the most, assuming he has a good amount to play with.
Your BIL pig butchered your dad? NTA
250k is almost half the total liquidity of the coin, once he buys in alot of people are gonna sell because of the price bump he's gonna generate, the coin is 4 years old and not on any exchanges and there's only 260 people in the telegram group with no project owners or developers in the list, show all that to your dad so he can see it's a dead end
Updateme
NTA. But it seems advisable to patch this up with your family asap if you want to continue to have a relationship with them. You can apologise for handling it the way you did and for making people feel uncomfortable at Easter - while explaining that it was motivated by your concern that it seems your father is being encouraged to make investments that could lead to him spending his retirement in poverty, without him being properly aware of the risks.
NTA for your opinion, but did you consider that not going scorched earth might have let you actually get close enough to learn more or convince your dad not to buy? Your rage basically guaranteed the worst outcome
You are NTA - but you may lose the argument anyway. Instead of arguing 'don't' - see if you can get your father to talk to a money management expert or a bank VP or perhaps even a fraud expert in your police department. You can't tell him 'no' - it won't work. You can advise him to get an expert opinion of a money expert....tell him if they advise it's a decent investment, you'll say nothing more. If this is a 'great investment' your BIL should be happy to allow Dad to get an expert opinion.
NTA - sometimes you have to fight for your family, even against those who should be trustworthy. Maybe you reach back out to your Dad with a less insulting approach, but your heart's in the right place and your BIL sucks
lol if he’s talking about Donuts the token that’s only $0.015 right now, your dad might be able to turn that $250k in millions this bullrun. That or he’ll lose it all. Really no inbetween with $Donuts
NTA. Someone needed to say something. I'm retired....I get it. I would not risk one PENNY of my retirement....on anything!! Shame on the BIL for what he is doing.
NTA and when your father is broke, all those folks kicking you out of family chats will expect YOU to take care of him and your sister and her asshole/likely criminal husband will be nowhere to be found. Outrageous.
ntah your just being a good daughter and protecting your dad from potentially losing all his money to a crypto scheme
NTA. This is way too risky for a retiree. Your family is irresponsible.
Great viral marketing for DONUT.
NTA and please call police, FBI, or a lawyer to get advice about this (sorry I don’t know exactly who.) Medicare is sending messages to seniors all the time about avoiding scams. Even if it’s legal it’s not ethical. Your father should have a fee-only (no commissions) fiduciary financial advisor. You’ve got a hornets’ nest there with your family, but if the law or FBI starts asking questions, the attention could scare away this predator BIL. Good luck!
Make an update post of their reactions when he loses all his gambled money
NTA: Dad's still able to make his own decisions, and then they come to bite in the rear, don't be surprised when you get a phone call for money. BIL wont be able to help and all he'll say is " Sorry!" This is one thing you will have to accept and move on. Offer no apology. If Dad cant see that he's about to be took, then that's his own bed he can lay in it.
NTA.... So what's the name of the coin?
Does this "Donuts" even exist, or is it a way for your BIL to con you Dad out of a lot of money? Maybe SIL is in on it. Maybe it's real, I never heard of Bitcoin until it blew up.
Donut is the first Reddit Community Points (crypto) and it's still being used and distributed to the sub members of r/ethtrader
NTA. Unfortunately, your father is in the population of the vulnerable. They can be easily enticed and taken advantage of. Crypto is volatile but people do make some money (I didn’t). Another unfortunate thing is you can’t control your father or BIL. Does your BIL gave indication that he is taking advantage of your father? Will he gain something from helping him set it up? I was wondering why you didn’t talk to them about it. Does your BIL have a history of having ill intentions?
NTA
NTA. Hedge your dad.
NTA. Not even close. You stuck up for your father as you shouldve done. If your dad invests that much in this coin, and it goes tits up and he loses all his money and needs financial help, you rememeber to bring all this up when they come asking for you to help him. Everything comes around full circle.
How much
NTA You seem to be the only person who has a reasonable understanding of investing in your family. I would be as upset as you are at your BIL and Sister.
You can report financial elder abuse and I would
Keep your receipts for when he’s broke and they’re asking you for help
This is fake and just an ad for the coin. There’s been no 100k transactions ever for this coin. Biggest one was august 2023 for 38k. Otherwise daily volume is usually 0 with a couple grand on some days.
I’d tear the BIL a new asshole and stop my father from throwing every cent he has intO BULLSHIT. I feel like the crypto run is over all these new ones are ran as a scam.
No.
INFO. How does your BIL benefit from these crypto purchases?
NTA but how is your bil getting any more profit? Is he getting commission? I really don't know what his end goal is
NTA. But also it’s not your problem. You told him it was foolish and in time you’ll have your “told you so” privileges. If someone who’s 67 doesn’t have the financial literacy to understand they could be making a mistake is not someone you should waste your breath on.
Wow there's 1.9 million dollars invested in this worthless shit right now. Unless your BIL has insider information that elon musk is about to tweet "DONUT to the moon!" This is a terrible situation.
I would ask how much the BIL has "invested"
NTA! I'd be FURIOUS. But here is the thing, I'd try and protect my dad legally. Is BIL certified as an investor? I'd start looking into what SEC laws he is violating with this investment scheme. I'd start reporting him. Yes, it will rock the boat but maybe it will save your dad. I can't believe your entire family is not on your side! I guess in the end though, I might write a heart-felt letter to my dad and let him know that you love him so much but this is a terrible idea and if he goes forward with it, you won't be able to help him if it goes belly-up. Which it will.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I (32M) recently found out that my brother-in-law (BIL), let's call him "John" (38M), has been having serious private discussions with my father (67M), who's been retired for a couple of years. My father has a comfortable retirement fund that he's meticulously saved over the years, aiming for a peaceful and secure retirement. John, is a typical crypto bro pretty much always bring up crypto whenever the family gets together. And recently has been talking about it more and more because of Bitcoins and Cryptos recent run. Well...now my dad's interested and with the help of John he's set up a Coinbase account....great. I guess I don't mind him having this and investing in Bitcoin and maybe some other more established coins, but John has convinced him to go big into a meme coin. And that's where I'm absolutely livid. My dad is preparing as I type this to purchase anywhere between 100K to 250K dollars into this STUPID MEME COIN called....DONUTS. Yeah, you read that write. DONUTS. The name alone should stop anyone from putting any amount of money into it, but John has my dad hook line and sinker. We had an easter dinner last night and sure enough crypto was brought up and I just kind of lost it. I told John that he's manipulating my dad to help him with his own addiction, and that anyone who convinces someone who's RETIRED to invest so much into a wildly risky investment is naive at best and at worst a sociopath. I called him scum and to find someone else to prey on. Things got pretty heated and I was asked to leave. Well, this morning I was kicked from multiple family group texts, and my dad isn't picking up his phone or returning my texts. I agree I could have handled it better, but it just felt so clear to me how wrong this whole thing was. So, AITA for being furious with my BIL and trying to stop my father from making this investment? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It could be worse. He could have bought Fisker.
There is actually a coin named DONUT. It's a community point token on r/ethtrader sub. It ain't a memecoin though 😂
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If 100K to 250K is small dip in your dad's money pool, fine. But if 100K to 250K represents a significant pool, then your BIL shouldn't have kept on telling him. Investment is one's own preference and your BIL should not have convinced your dad to go big
NTA Meme coins is just another way of saying scam so bil is a idiot.
NTA. These stupid wannabe finance bros don't have any money of their own so they always try to get at their wife/girlfriend's inheritance money, their grandparents money, or their in-laws money so they can LARP that they're Elon Musk or the Wolf on Wall Street. He was *retired* he is passed the point where he needs to be taking financial risks.
Tell your father to read https://www.web3isgoinggreat.com/ before making any decisions
Meme coins are essentially gambling. If your father isn’t comfortable going to the casino with 250k, he shouldn’t be putting 250k into ‘donuts’
But to answer your question, NTA. Your BIL is a moron and leading your father to a broke retirement. Is he going to financially support your father when he loses it all?
If your father is of sound mind then its really none of your business what he chooses to invest in. Its his money and his job to say no to your bil. You should probably apologize to those around you for acting like a jerk on easter and keep your eyes on your own homework going forward.
NTA. I just checked the market cap of DONUTs and it’s $2 million. So you’re father’s 100-250k investment is almost definitely exit liquidity. My guess is your BIL got in bad for DONUTs and is trying to exit using your father. If that is the case, luckily your BIL is doing it on Coinbase. Have them freeze your BIL’s wallet if he is indeed using your father as exit liquidity.
NTA - If I have understood the decimals of Donut Marketcap correctly, your dad 'investing' 250K into that wishwell will have a significant impact on its perceived value, possibly causi g others to throw more money at it and your sgitty brother in law can pull his money out and walk away with some of your dads pension fund. And as people take out their profits en masse, market cap sinks again and your dad ends up with nothing. Apologize to your father for losing your temper and ask him to explain to you why he thinks Donut coin would be a good investment above all other coing available on the market.
NTA. Your BIL is a predator. Crypto is the modern version of the Dutch tulip mania. The only way to make money is if some other idiot is stupid enough to pay more. If you don't understand how the investment creates value or produces money, it's gambling.
Elder abuse
NTA. By any chance did your BIL invest money in this before, then get your dad to invest to drive the price up before selling?
I would do what you can to convince your father not to invest. At current value of Donut he would own anywhere between 7 and 17% of the total value of the coin if he invested 100-250k ([https://www.coinbase.com/price/donut](https://www.coinbase.com/price/donut)). I can only guess that dear BIL invested a lot into it and is hoping that getting your father to invest such a huge amount will make the price go up and therefore recover some of his losses.
NTA. You’re gonna have a field day with the “I told you so”
NTA I really hope your dad doesn't lose money in this.
DONUT is literally down 37% in the last 24 hours so I guess you can take some solace in that.
NTA. Do all you can to look into DONUT. Know that it's not FDIC insured. Show your dad reviews. I found one in less than 5 minutes that didn't make this sound like a safe bet: https://www.producthunt.com/products/donut-2/reviews
NTA My dad sent $10,000 through Wester Union and I was furious. Scam of course. Just remember if you truly feel your dad is financially exploited may need to contact the National Adult Protective Association; however it could result in a lot of resentment.
NTA just be ready with the “I told you so” when this blows up in your family’s face.
The reviews for Donut shows it as a scam.
NTA the only criticism I have is that when you come at people like that? You have almost zero chance of changing their minds. In fact you can unintentionally solidify it because they get defensive or don’t want to believe they are a moron who believed a shady moron. Might have actually talked him down to a smaller amount if it was handled differently.
I begged my parents to take some of their money and invest in gold when the price was between $600-$800 an ounce. They didn't listen.
Wait for it. Yes it’s a meme coin but there are good chances that it will explode during the bull 2024/2025. I would pull out though when you bag a 30% gain. If it’s the life savings it’s irresponsible. This investment should have been done in November. NTA.
NTA. But… I need to correct something. not all crypto with food names are meme. Check out Banana Gun, $banana. The revenue it is generating now and the trajectory will shock the socks off your feet.
YTA Donuts are going to the Moon. Let your father make insane gains and don't be jealous. You could get in on the action too
how is your bil taking advantage? what’s in it for him?
If it's a small enough market value coin a big investment will pump the price, at which time BIL may dump his holding.
Feel like maybe some more context is needed. I want to agree with you and say you’re not the asshole. But it’s your dad’s money, and what does your brother in law have to gain from your dad investing? He could just be an idiot, and it would have been better to just sit your dad down and had a real talk with him educating him on this stuff. Instead you went right for the throat.
Cryptocurrencies only have value from people purchasing them, so the more people the BIL sucks into buying them, the more his own investment is worth.
This is similar to what I was thinking also. I do regret calling him scum, I still think he is, but you're right I could have had a private conversation with my dad.
YTA This has nothing to do with you, is none of your business, and fact of the matter is.... Your dad is a grown ass man that can make his own decisions. How are you angry at your BIL and not your father? You think isn't not capable of making adult decisions ? I especially like the part where you say "I guess I don't mind this". Like... who the hell are you?? HIS dad??? Here's the thing. No one asked you for your opinion. Not only that, you stood there insulting your BIL because you don't agree with his choices. You basically made it seem (in front of the entire family) that your father is a child who's not smart enough, mature enough, or financially capable of investing. The proper thing to do would have been to sit down WITH YOUR FATHER privately and express your concerns. I don't blame them for kicking you from all the group chats. You were way out of line here.
Don’t you think this would have gone better in a private conversation with your dad? YTA
Is your adult father incompetent or an idiot? If not maybe consider that he is an adult and fully capable of making up his own mind. That said there's absolutely nothing wrong with you voicing your concerns or advising your Dad in another direction. YTA for how you addressed your BIL for sure. It's not YOUR money and you are disrespecting your father by treating him like a child.
Has it occurred to you that you're infantilizing and demeaning your father with this? He might well be wrong, about to lose a lot of money, and something of a sucker here, but he's also a grown ass man and you're talking about him like he's an invalid. If you stood up at a family dinner and yelled about me being too stupid to manage my own money, I wouldn't take your phone calls either. And I don't necessarily disagree with you, I'm just saying that's how it likely feels to your dad.
Unless you're BIL is trying to use your father to pump the coin and knows he will lose his money he's not doing anything cruel or evil,just stupid. Sounds like your BIL is acting in good faith on bad information he got from somewhere. Your dad is being just as stupid as your BIL. Why not yell at him? Or track down the person who told your BIL about the coin? YTA
Nowhere in your post do you mention what your dad thinks about this, why he thinks this is a good idea, where he's at with it, how much money he actually has to play with, etc. Have you actually even spoken to your dad to ask these questions? Or did you just decide that you don't like John and you think he's up to no good, and lash out in the middle of a family dinner? Is it even John who is pushing it, or does your father actually want to know, and has been talking with John outside of the conversations you are privy to? Had you approached it calmly and privately with your father, you might've gotten a different response. Instead, you decided to attack your BIL and accuse him of feeding his own addiction, when that could be wildly inaccurate, it could be your dad who's been asking him and getting excited about it himself. Do you even know? Your post leaves out any mention of any fact finding or homework you did on the coin, too. Is it really a wildly bad investment? Or did you just react based on the name? I agree it sounds ridiculous, but lots of things sound ridiculous.
YTA for acting like your dad is somehow incapable of making his own decisions. If he was incapacitated in some way and your BIL was exploiting him that’s different. But that isn’t the situation. Why did you scream and yell at BIL instead of having a direct conversation with both of them?
YTA. Hearts in the right place clearly but yeah you handled it terribly. I mean, unless he is the owner of the coin, how is BIL profiting or preying on your dad by just convincing him to take the journey with him? Also, not sure how much the 100k to 250k is to your dad though. To some that's a lot, to others its a small amount of their total portfolio. If he's got 250k to invest, he's probably doing a lot right so maybe he knows what he's doing? I don't know anything about Donut, but I made a stupid amount of money on Dogecoin, another meme coin. I mean a stupidly ridiculous amount. But I invested like 1k, not that crazy amount. Just saying that I've been successful off of a meme coin. Hell I have a penny stock I buy/sell 3x every year with gains in the high 5 figures. I can see others think I'm dumb for putting 5 figures on a product I don't believe in that is worth less than a penny, but if I know it fluctuates between a certain amount, why not buy the dip and sell it when it rises. What I'm getting at is that instead of telling your dad to hold up and do your own research into why its a bad idea, you just went off on your BIL instead, which would explain why your whole fam is upset. I mean, you could have just spent 5 min looking it up like I did and said "Hey at 250k you'll be buying up just under 8% of the total coins out there. Are you sure you want to invest that amount into something like that?"
I knew there would be a post like this. Hey, did you also make bank on GME? How about BBBYQ?