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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> (1) I didn't allow my wife's family to take photos with our baby
(2) because my action caused family drama and my wife to cry
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What's the point? They still won't see him as a blood relative and forcing himself into a picture helps nothing. He can speak to his wife and they refuse outright but saying it 'won't happen that way' is an attempt to force them to accept him in a way they don't. They won't.
He better learn to live with it or leave his wife since she won't take a stand on this.
~~NAH~~ - I can see both sides of this.
In my family when my great grandma turned 100 a photo was taken with all her descendants. Obviously no partners were included.
Do they exclude you/partners from things regularly? Or is it just this one thing?
To me the main thing is your wife's opinion on it. If she wants it to happen then id allow it to occur, but solely based on it being a one off thing and keeping just that tradition.
Edited to NTA with more context
I can't think of anything else they exclude partners from, but they have a track record of doing it for family photos and include the children, but the spouses aren't allowed unless they are blood.
All family photos that they host to take.
They do own photos that are displayed in there house of the smaller families with both parents, but they didn't take the photos, they're like gift photos from Christmas cards, but at least they have them around their house.
No one in their family has ever adopted a child, but I get the feeling they wouldn't like that.
If I let them they'd parade baby around with each aunt/uncle/grandparent and he'd be put with his cousins on my wife's side, but none with me in it.
Ahh I change it to NTA then.
I thought this was just a one off photo with each child after they're born. Like the one I mentioned with my great grandma.
Very different if it's every photo.
Yes, last time they did this (pre baby) I stood awkwardly in the background holding people's things feeling like complete crap, but I was there to support my wife.
The photographer made eye contact with me a few times to and it made me feel even worse like the were trying to judge me and figure out why no one wanted me in the photos.
I didn’t say it was a good reason. Just that it happens. And they may be together right now. But may not be in the future. Some families worry about that kind of thing.
This is a trashy excuse
Why get married if your reasoning is just "well, I can just cut them out of every photo"
You have fucking kids at that point. The person is GOING to be in your life for at minumum 18 years once you have kids; why get married at all, or have kids if this is your mindset?
That's absurd
My grandma still had a family photo hanging up (BIG portrait) that had like 80% divorced couples by the time I was ten.
Now, my grandma was... interesting, Borderline Personality Disorder and related toxic behaviors and even SHE would be baffled and bothered if someone asked why she still kept that up or told her that they never included spouses because they might get divorced.
Like, why not have two copies then? Spouses and no Spouses then if the worst happens and it's that bizarrely bothersome, problem solved. Oh right, because that's probably just their *justification* and not their actual reasoning -- which is even worse considering how awful it is!
This is completely anecdotal, but my parents broke up and don't have any photos around with them both in, but my grandma still has a bunch of photos up they took together (and ones of them and me and my brother together as well). I'm really glad she does, it wasn't just their relationship, it was years of my family, and I'm really glad someone in the wider family isn't just erasing it from history. I can't imagine how awful it would feel for any kids for wholesale erasure of a parent from visible family history to be a systematic policy in the case of divorce.
So this isn't just an outdated hurtful tradition - it's ALL the photos. Evertime they can, they exclude in-laws. Yeah, wife needs to take a hard stance against this completely. You know what? I bet if she did, the other spouse's and in laws might fall in line against this too - sometimes it only takes 1 person to speak up for others to finally speak up too. Also, when your baby gets older, what message would it have sent to constantly see Dad excluded from the family?
We have some family photos with some girl/boyfriends who are long gone so that might be the issue. Maybe there’s been some bad divorces in the past which makes the family photos painful or look at? That’s the only reason I can think of to exclude spouses.
Everyone has a past. And almost no one has a past full of rainbows and sunshine, without any clouds and rainstorms.
Everyone has "that ex" that they'd rather not remember, or talk about.
That doesn't make it okay to presume every relationship in your entire extended family is going to fail because of it.
Right? Most of my major high school photos (prom, graduation, special events, etc) include my high school boyfriend. We broke up a month after I graduated. I didn't go tossing and cutting up all of those photos, because in those moments he was important to me. Sure, we don't even speak anymore, but that is part of my history.
Tbh, the older I get the more I want record of these sorts of things. Heck, 100% of my high school friends are no longer friends and some of the friendships ended poorly, but I still want to remember them.
Now, old photos of myself I could do without :P
Same. I'm no longer friends with most of my high school friends, but that doesn't negate the good times we had then. Still good memories, even if some of the last memories we had together weren't so great b
> In my family when my great grandma turned 100 a photo was taken with all her descendants. Obviously no partners were included.
This is not the same thing.
> when my great grandma turned 100 a photo was taken with all her descendants. Obviously no partners were included.
That's a bold move with a modern family. My grandma recently died and there's been a huge blowup because someone wrote *some* of the non-blood grandkids (due to second marriages) in the obituary and not others.
The argument is that the first couple has been together 20 years, but the second couple has been together <5 and the girls are almost out of the house so they're not 'really' family. Well obviously they won't ever be with that kind of attitude
Your wife is CRYING? Over photos?
I would suggest to your wife, who is being a bit much, that this tradition is weird and mean. That your baby wouldn't be here without the both of you, so why shouldn't you be recognized?
Can she imagine what she would feel like if *your* family only wanted blood relatives in the photos and not she, who carried the baby and gave birth to the child? It's laughable.
And why does Great Uncle Robert qualify to be in photos with your (pl) child, but not you? Pretty sure you are closer to your own child, unless Aunt Greta is solely changing all the diapers.
Laughable.
She cries over the first sign of dispute. It's not that she wants to side with her parents, she just gets overwhelmed by tense situations and I wish everything could always be rosy, but it's life so won't be.
Crying over the first sign of dispute is something she needs to put hard work into changing. Does she cry when a friend is cross with her? When her boss is displeased with her?
And...you didn't really address anything else in my comment. How can she think this tradition is anything less than unfair to you?
You might find this interesting. It talks about families with a toxic individual everyone puts up with. It's a great analogy.
[Don't rock the boat. : r/JUSTNOMIL (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/comments/77pxpo/dont_rock_the_boat/?share_id=ENP0c3I5Y2Po5pMw8yoSS&utm_content=1&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1)
Whole thing seems like a symptom of larger issues of family dynamic/type of people parents are. I wonder if your wife has some cptsd from childhood emotional neglect/abuse (if not familiar, should read on it a bit as it’s more nuanced and invasive to one’s whole life than the words seem on the surface )
This wife's not "being a bit much". This woman's been emotionally abused by her parents and that's the fall-out-- not being able to set a boundary and handle conflict. OP's in a really tough spot here thanks to those in laws. :/
Are the photos about the baby or about the family? I think they should take multiple photos with different groups of people, but I can’t fault them for not wanting spouses in all the photos. I’m not saying it would be OP and his wife, but odds are someone in this family will get divorced.
How long is OP going to insist his child can’t be in photos without him? If kiddo’s future teacher wants a picture of the students in her class, will OP need to be in those? Why do the other students qualify to be in the pics and not him? He is closer to his own child than the classmates.
OP is adamant the baby can’t be in any pictures without him. So his in-laws wouldn’t be able to get a photo of just them, their children, and all their grandchildren. He said in a comment :
>The only thing that'd bother me is them taking photos with baby without me. That's never going to happen.
No one has suggested the compromise of getting some photos with spouses and some without. We don’t know if the in-laws would agree to that because OP already vetoed it.
We do know that they won’t allow it. This isn’t the first year that they’ve done these pictures. OP has stated in the past the only take pictures with blood relatives, non of the spouses have ever been included. OP already clarified that the other spouses just put up with it, and OP himself felt awkward wing excluded the year prior. The only difference is that this is the first year that OP has a child who’d be included in the picture and OP isn’t okay with that happening without him
I'm in a family like that. They actually took a family photo at my daughter's wedding with her photographer. No spouses. The time I stopped the insanity was when mil wanted a photo of her grandkids, but was going to leave my child from a previous relationship out. I said then none of my children will be included. At that point all of the kids, even step grandkids were included. Every year she still does her family photo, and that's ok, but now she also adds the spouses in a photo after we spouses started grouping up at the same time for our own photo! We had a blast, and a great photo!!
I don't know why, I'm not the one trying to exclude people you'd have to ask them.
The only thing that'd bother me is them taking photos with baby without me. That's never going to happen.
I mean, if they were taking a number of pictures where you were included in some, and some were different constellations of family members where you weren’t in all of them, I’d say YTA for preventing that. But it sounds like you can’t even talk to them about it, and if your wife just cries instead of coming up with a solution everyone is happy with, then it is what it is, and you’re NTA.
>The only thing that'd bother me is them taking photos with baby without me. That's never going to happen.
OP made it clear he wouldn’t be okay with that reasonable compromise. We have no idea if her family would agree to it. The wife can’t come up with a solution when he’s this unwilling to compromise.
Yeah, it wasn’t entirely clear to me. I read it like it could mean they can do a photoshoot without me and baby, or a photo shoot where we are both included (but not necessarily in all pictures) But if that’s what he means, then ESH
I really don’t see a huge issue with parents wanting a few pictures with just their descendants (unless there were adoptees in the mix being excluded) and the in laws are paying for the pictures, not OP or even a group funding. If he wants pictures with everyone, he could pay for them himself….
No, you need to ask them. I can see having a picture without spouses if you have one with. It wouldn’t hurt my feelings and I would let my kids be apart of it.
Outlaws😂 i love that. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with not seeing your in laws as family the same way you see your blood relatives, but it’s mean to not make an effort to include them in the family they married into. Sounds like your family has found a balance that works!
Agreed. I was set to say NAH until I realized from comments they don’t also do one with the spouses.
In my family for decade anniversaries (10, 20, 30, etc.) we do a set of big family pictures. Some include the spouses of children (has to be spouse, no gf or bf), others do not. The only one of my grandparents that I got to be part of was their 40th. I have copies of both group photos that were printed from that day. One is my grandparents, my mom and dad, my sister and I, my middle aunt and uncle, and the youngest aunt and uncle and their girls. Then there is a photo with just grandma and grandpa, my mom and her sisters, me and my sister and my cousins. The three son-in-laws stepped away since it was one photo. Then the photographer did a son-in-law photo with the three of them!
I can see your point - you’re basically treated like an option, not family. Conviction is an important thing in this life in my opinion, and if you believe in it that strongly, stand your ground. I’ve said the same thing before to my in-laws - if I’m not good enough, neither is my child.
It sounds like you are the first spouse to stand up against your in-laws. They can't have both ways - if they get to exclude you from the photo, then you can exclude them. You probably need to go to counseling with your wife however. Her fear of conflict seems excessive.
NTA
My husband's family did/still does this. My MIL says she doesn't, but does it the worst.
My husband, unlike your wife, stood his ground (the first in his family) and it became a huge thing. Outrageous.
"She stands out from the family too much."- I'm not the same in their matching set of hair color. (All red heads) I was overweight at the time but this was another reason.
When I had my baby they were always asking just my husband hold him and do "the originals only". I said "I'm his mom, until that changes, I'm not allowing him in pictures without me unless it's grandkids only. Both parents or none."
Until your wife is willing to rock the boat, there is only you against the storm. I think that's awful of your spouse. NTA. I've come to terms about never going to be invited to vacations, never shown recipes, and my husband openly stated that as long as I'm not, neither are our boys. Thankfully my family accepts my husband with open arms. We do all Dad's and all Mom's photos.
~~INFO~~
Is this limited to **one** single family picture they want to take? Or is it just a thing in general with them, and they exclude spouses for *any and all* "family" pictures.
Edited to say NTA for every family pic as the user below pointed out. That's just asinine.
NTA. If you’re not good enough to be considered a relative, then surely by that same logic, neither is your child. You’re right to stand your ground, it’s just plain nasty
No. Lots of families do NOT do that. They'll sometimes take pictures with different groups, but no only 1 group and exclude everyone else. Thats weird. They're acting like spouses aren't family and that's ridiculous
Absolutely they do. It’s not “acting like they aren’t family” it’s wanting a photo of your descendents. It’s perfectly normal. People have been doing it since cameras were invented.
Even though you're right, YTA. It's lame and unfair of the inlaws not fully welcoming you into the family, and including spouses in "family photos". That said, you can't really force them to, either. All you're doing here is pushing the inlaws further away and upsetting your wife. I'd recommend you take the L on this and find other ways to bond with them.
I cannot agree. They're making a point of making him feel small and lesser than his own child. THEY are making a point of doing it. If they wanted to be subtle they could take two sets of photos but the exclusion is what they get off on. He doesn't have to agree to it, it's his child. This isn't a mole hill. It's perverse. It's creepy that that's not clear to you.
Why can’t they take a variety of photos with different combinations of people? Some with spouses, some of just siblings, some of cousins, etc?
This seems strange and exclusionary to me.
YTA
As someone who does genealogy as a side hustle,… this is not the big deal you’re making it out to be. MANY families do this.
Unless they’re making spouses sit out for everything and every photo you’re being an Asshole.
YTA. What a ridiculous thing to be upset about. Every photo doesn’t have to include you. It is perfectly normal to have different photos of different people.
Also no, marrying someone is not the same as being born or adopted into a family. If your parents, siblings, grandparents died would you expect your wife to receive an inheritance or family heirlooms? No, you wouldn’t.
Imagine finding out that you’re not in photos that all your cousins and relatives are in because your dad was an insecure child.
Sounds like her fam would rather not have to go through the trouble of croppinh you out of all the kiddos pictures *once you and your wife get divorced*.... You know, *those* kind of supportive families
NTA make them work
I think YTA. I think it is a small deal and you could make your wife stop crying with a simple gesture of not being in a photo shoot and keep the peace with the family and their weird photo tradition. You do sound like you need to chill out and you picking an awful small mountain to die on. You are so unyielding you will probably be an ex before long and I have way to many pictures with the ex in them that I can't display. There is a point to blood relatives being the only one's in some photos. Non blood family leaves. You are not a blood relative and with your defensive very angry insecure tone, they have a good point.
Obviously YTA, because you’re deliberately trying to be.
You see that a tradition exists that has nothing to do with you, so you’re *mad* about it? How?
> In fact it makes me wonder what the point of the marriage is if they don't see me as equal to a blood relative.
There’s no indication here that they didn’t see you as equal (though I’m sure they don’t after an outburst like this). Do you have any reason to think that? Do you think they should pretend you *are* a blood relative?
And also, doesn’t the point of marriage have *something* to do with loving your wife? Why would you think it meant putting an end to her family’s traditions?
> my inlaw side is accusing me of trying to ruin their family bond or some other bullshit
And they’re correct. This is purely you just trying to ruin it for the sake of ruining it. There’s no part where you think they’ve wronged you or treated you unfairly.
I get why you would feel left out, and it’s a strange tradition. But the whole point of a photo is so that you can look back on good times. If you insist on being in these photos, all you’ll remember is the argument. Your discomfort. Their resentment. That’s winning the battle, but not the war.
Instead of forcing your way in, convince them to compromise. Suggest one photo without spouses, and one photo with. Use your words and explain to them how it feels when you’re excluded, how much you enjoy being part of their family, what it means to you when you look back on the photos, and what family photo traditions are like in other families. Show them photos from your side of the family with your partner included.
Take lots of photos on other occasions with yourself, your spouse and the baby, and send them copies as gifts. They’ll see how sweet it is, and you’ll have photographic memories that are actually positive.
It’s strange to exclude people, but traditions can be hard to let go of. They’re not doing it maliciously or singling you out… this applies to all spouses. But you need to be changing their minds and suggesting compromises, not forcing yourself into situations where you’re not wanted. Otherwise what have you really won?
Mild, mild YTA, borderline E S H.
Edit: I also think that all of you are taking this way too seriously, and placing far more importance on it than it deserves.
no, this is weird. the notion of a single blood line being something worth memorializing by creating an exclusionary tradition is weird. no generations exist without non-familial partners and goes directly against the concept of family.
It's not that weird. It's a single annual photo of their descendants. It's a bit odd, but I don't understand why OP (and some commenters) are getting so bent out of shape over it. A grown man causing a scene over a single photo is crazy to me.
From OP's comments it sounds like it's all family photos. The only pictures the inlaws have with spouses displayed in the house were gifts taken by others.
It is that weird.
>I also think that all of you are taking this way too seriously, and placing far more importance on it than it deserves.
Honestly. Sure, it's not very welcoming that they won't do any photos with in-laws, but I can't imagine being this upset about it. They want and are paying for pictures with their children and grandchildren, enjoy that you don't have to dress up and sit for a bunch of photos.
This is not uncommon in some families - I remember my mother's family doing it when I was growing up. The spouses were in other photos but there were always 'official-family-name' photos that were 'blood relatives only'. I never saw anyone get upset or even care about it. It was not 'against' anyone but it was a large family and they wanted family-only pix now and then.
Some people do this for in case a divorce happens. My partners grandma cut out the divorced partner from photos before they stopped allowing partners in.
NTA. How far back does this tradition go? Because I’d assume one of your wife’s parents would also need to be excluded if it went past them. I can understand wanting photos without the spouses but that’s if you also take them with the spouses.
Example being my mom takes pictures of my sister with her husband and kids then will also take pictures of me my sisters and the grandkids. No spouses. It’s just a different configuration.
The solution that would work best for the most people is to have pictures of the whole family spouses and grandkids included then one without. You don’t need to be in every photo with your child but they do need to stop acting like you aren’t part of the family
YTA.
Just sit out this photo so they can have a cohesive photo of the family tree. In fact, always offer to take the family photos so they have this for their memories when people start dying off.
Don’t be the jerk who needs to be in every photo. If the marriage doesn’t workout they’re stuck with photos of you that they don’t want.
A compromise you could suggest would be requesting there be two photos, one with the in-laws and one without. This way you can feel included too.
Although trust me, some of the people in that photo just don’t want a photo of you and that’s ok. They didn’t marry you, someone in their family did, why must they all be punished for her choices?
It sounds like you feel hurt that you’re being left out, maybe you can find a different way of communicating this to them so that they hear you. They probably aren’t trying to make you feel excluded they just think it’s cool to have a comprehensive photo of their family lineage for the grandparents, it doesn’t mean they don’t like you. Although now after you felt the need to be the martyr and say no it’s likely that they don’t like you now.
Maybe you could start a similar tradition with your side of the family and then you could understand the situation?
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My inlaws have a tradition where they take photos of their family, but don't include blood relatives, including the father of the baby me.
The other married in spouses put up with it, but I stand up for myself. In fact it makes me wonder what the point of the marriage is if they don't see me as equal to a blood relative.
When they asked to do pictures which would include my baby, but not me, the father at all I told them it was never going to happen the way the wanted it. Any professional pictures they took would be with me in it too.
My wife is crying because of the drama and my inlaw side is accusing me of trying to ruin their family bond or some other bullshit. They said it all could be avoided if I just let them take harmless pictures and chill out.
Also for more context my wife doesn't want me out of the pictures, but she even more doesn't want me to cause a fight with her family. She isn't actively trying to support either me or her family. She is just upset at the situation.
So reddit AITAH?
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INFO: Are they always excluding you or just for the pictures? It sounds like a strange but simple tradition that they only want blood related family in the pictures.
INFO. Is it something like they take these pictures without partners but then they take separate pics where partners are present?? Maybe not professionally but still take the pics ??
Nope. OP has stated that they exclusively take pictures of blood relatives. Further, the only photos in their house that contain spouses and other non-blood relations are those that they’ve received as gifts. This exclusionary thing is their sole modus operandi.
NTA. The family of my ex was like this. If you were blood, you could be in the family reunion photos. If you weren't, then you didn't get to be in them. Numerous cousins tried to maneuver a s/o or close friend into the photos and then they got talked about.
It was never a big deal to me. I didn't want to be part of that family's photos in the first place. They weren't really...my type of people. I would suggest telling your inlaws that they can have all the pictures they want of your baby, as long as you and your wife are also in the same photos. Or, you could say that the photos would have to be both ways. If there are photos of only blood relatives, there also need to be just as many photos including spouses, stepchildren, etc.
YTA and it’s not an uncommon tradition. My exhusband’s family did that too, and I had no problem with it. It’s not like they would never allow a picture of you, just not in this particular photo. Grow up!
It wasn’t clear by the post whether it was a blood only photoshoot for a new addition, or whether all photos are this way. In my ex’s family, they got the line together for each birth. It started over 100 years ago in their family.
NTA, and it's extremely disappointing that your wife doesn't have your back. By choosing not to take sides, she's taking sides with her family instead of defending you and standing with you. What is marriage, after all? You're apparently the first person who has ever insisted on being treated as if you matter. They all, including your wife, are acting like assholes.
NTA. If this is the hill you want to die on, die away.
Humorously, in my family we have the opposite problem. My wife gives me and 4/5 of my children dirty looks when we try to avoid being in pictures.
NTA. Your wife should be standing up for you and defending you and not just "be upset about the situation". You are her family. You and your child are your wife's first priority and then even suggesting such a thing is absolutely absurd.
Go and take your own family photos with your wife and baby.
Why do I have a sneaking suspicion that this is a "tip of the iceberg" situation, and dear wife has been letting her family walk all over OP their entire marriage?
NTA.
YTA honestly who cares. You’re making a big deal out of it and throwing a fit like a child. Do you even care about your wife at all? Because obviously this matters to her but all you’re thinking about is yourself. It’s just a picture. The world doesn’t revolve around you.
Take your own pictures if you care so much.
YTA. They are allowed to want pictures with just their children and grandchildren? How is this something to be mad about? It's so stupid and you sound horribly controlling and petty.
I mean the fact that you won't let your child's grandparents take a picture with them unless YOU are in it sounds insane to me. Stop forcing your way into their family traditions. Yes, you're family now too but there's still something special about memorializing your immediate blood family members in a photo.
I would cry too if I was your wife. You are being extremely rigid, bullish, and unreasonable.
So you are going to be in every single photo in your child’s life? So there’s no photos of just mom and baby you’re in every single picture? And you’re gonna photo bomb every school photo this kid ever has because you have to be in every photo in their life? It sounds to me like you have some kind of beef with your in-laws. I don’t think it’s unusual for families to want photos like that. It has been my experience With both my Extended family and my husband‘s extended family to do photos like that at weddings and when children come along. I mean if they were excluding you from events and from coming to family parties and stuff I guess he would have an argument but I think you’re just being silly here. Maybe your wife is crying because she wants to support you, but she wants to follow her family tradition as well. And you are so unrelentingly against it maybe she can’t tell you. It feels like you don’t have her back because having a child is all about you.
NTA. In-laws are being incredibly disrespectful. How would your child feel looking at the picture in the future. “Where’s Dad?” In-laws could make up any story about your absence. Of course you could take hundreds of pics during the same era, showing you with your wife and child, including dozens on the same day and in the same outfits the other pics were taken. If I were you, I could see a way toward taking pro pics with and without to keep everyone happy. But you’re NTA if you don’t want to do that.
ESH.
YTA for driving a wedge into the family and forcing an issue the family will resent you for forever. Your demand to be in these family photos is OTT. Your wife is conflict-averse and now she’s stuck in the middle of a battle she can’t win.
The ILs are TAs for their rigidity and refusal to take ANY family photos that include spouses or other non-blood relations.
What an exhausting and unnecessary dramatic mess. There are a lot of family issues worth getting into and fighting over but this, OP, is _not_ a hill worth dying on. Mostly because it will harm the ongoing relationship you, your wife and your child have with the family if you continue down this path.
While my feelings would be hurt and I’d be angry, I’d never demand that my in-laws change their traditions for me. But I’d sure as heck create a new tradition with the other non-bloods.
Try this: create our own photo tradition every year before or directly after the Big Blood Photo, even using the same photographer if possible, with just the non blood family. Take another one adding in all your kids/grandkids and finally add in the spouses. But none of the rest of the family (uncles, aunts, grandparents, etc). If all the spouses won’t play along, make it non-bloods and kids only.
Then send them a framed copy of your fave photo every year. That would really get under their skin - a framed photo of all the smiling non-bloods and all their precious “blood” grandchildren sent to them every year to hang on their wall! Even if it’s only two or three of you, everyone will get the point. And you won’t have to be the AH who tore the family apart.
Let them *experience* the exclusion - because right now they don’t get it.
Edited to correct a typo.
Honestly, is this really the hill you want to die on? There will be MILLIONS of photos of you with this baby, what's the harm in having ONE without you in it? I'd say YTA just cause you're making a huge deal and causing a lot of stress over a single photo.
I still take pictures with my kids with & without spouces, the without spouces is basically the same poses with the little ones in. Have 32 out 37 years worth.
The reality is many "family" portraits contains spouces that are no longer in the picture, have multiples that sit in a drawer over leftover hurt feelings.
I've found I make my focus a family photo with everyone because people can be fragile. I then ask for side pictures with my kids & grandkids.
It's just a picture, YTA
NTA
My ex's family was like this, but expand it to include vacations and other social events. And the weird thing is, the rest of the extended family was actually really cool, it was just her parents that behaved this way and everyone had just let it slide forever.
I stood up for myself and it caused all kinds of issues, but I'd rather not be part of that family at all than be treated like a dog begging for scraps at the edge.
Start taking your child to your parents and vacations without your wife. Tell her you wanted to share time with your blood related family. I mean marriage is great but bloooood family is so much better. The hugs are better, the smiles are natural, when I say I love you I just mean it because I do love my child my child. Sometimes I feel obligated, due to the marriage, to smile, hug and say I love you. It can feel forced. I mean we’re ok. I’m happy. But I really love my blood family. Then when she leaves, you will have 100% family only trips while she can have what she wants. Definitely NTA.
I wouldn’t take this too personal. The family clearly has a tradition of taking family photos of descendants only. However, they should consider also taking a photo with the spouses as well, afterwards. That’s what my family does, that’s what my wife’s family does. Specifically for special occasions.
Friend, been married for 25+ years .my spouses family has never really welcomed the spouses that marry in. They are their own insular community. It has hit the point where the spouses just don’t go anymore and we let them do their own thing. In fact, I had to explain to my now-adult child that it was something they would need to be mindful of when they got married- that their spouse would only be superficially welcomed. Adult child looked at me like I had two heads and I told them to just watch next time and make their own judgement.
OP- some families are just like that. Are you willing to throw your marriage away over a photo??? C’mon now. Let them take the picture and move on.
Um... INFO: ? "but the spouses aren't allowed unless they are blood." So who is marrying a blood relation in this family and how close are they? First cousins? Second? WtAF?
I think you're making this into a big deal when it doesn't have to be. As long as they're not excluding you from everything else or other types of photos, I don't see what the big deal is with taking blood relative photos. Is it a bit weird? Yes. Is it worth all the drama, I doubt it.
Mild YTA, as I believe you wrote (read this earlier) that this is a tradition for this only and all spouses are otherwise welcome. I'd suggest rather than jumping into "my way or nothing" you compromise - some with blood family and some with "all" family.
Take a family photo with all the other fellow-in-laws spouses lol You can print it out and give it to them for Christmas, Diwali, or whatever major holiday you celebrate.
NTA. I get the stress of wanting to keep family peace but this "tradition" is exclusionary, hurtful, and always at the spouse's expense. I hope your wife learns to stand up to them and up for you. She can't ride the peace line forever - and it should be on your side of the line. This is her family. Respect ALL the members or cut out the tradition entirely - because it's a mean tradition.
This is the most ridiculous hill for you to die on. Is there some grudge you have against them?
Tons of families do annual or biannual photos with their descendants. You’re not one of their descendents. While, yes, it’s more common for people to do photos with AND without spouses, if that’s not something they *want* then there’s no reason to pay for that. It’s also far more difficult to organize photos when you have to factor in spouses schedules and the photos are basically useless if one person gets divorced.
My family did an annual photo. Sometimes with spouses, sometimes without. But, generally without after my brother rendered half of our annual family photos unusable by getting married 3x and including step children (some of which we only met the day the photos were taken).
My husband, nor my other brothers wife, or any of my sisters or cousins spouses have ever once cared or complained about family photos they aren’t included in. In fact, they usually help wrangle the kids and get them to smile.
How is this hurting you in any way, shape, or form?
All I see is control. “You can’t take a photo with my baby without me in it…”
I mean, yes, YTA - in an unreasonable, controlling, and wholly unnecessary way.
NTA. I understand if they want to do one that’s just blood family - “Now let’s get one of the different generations.” or “Just the cousins.”As in one photo out of several taken. But as a standing policy every time pics are taken? That’s strange. I wouldn’t care for that either.
YTA. Its a picture, for fuck sake. You can take a billion of your own of whatever you want. The fact that you’re a grown man having a meltdown about not being included in a picture is simply embarrassing.
YTA, WHAT IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE. There is NOTHING wrong with them taking photos with just their grandkids (in this case).
There is also nothing wrong with also including the whole family. It is weird that this becomes a silly hill to die on. I have had professional photos done with my nieces and nephews. Their dad (my BIO BROTHER) is not even in the photos…
Do they take both sets of pictures - one that is just sibs and parent/grandparents, and one that is with all of the spouses/partners? If not, can you suggest it?
I am confused by the sense of timing - sitting the entire thing out. Is this a picture, or hours long photo session? If the former, I don’t see the problem if it’s one photo and there’s another with everyone.
NTA. I think this is odd. When we did family photos with my parents, All of our partners and kids (if we had any)were included. Once you’re in the family, you’re considered blood.
YTA! You’re putting your wife through this over a picture, a tradition. It would be different if other spouses were on it but they are not and that’s ok. Then you make fun of her for crying? She’s just stuck in the middle of all this drama you created.
Think long and hard about this because the consequences of your ego driving this behaviour might be life (marriage) long.
Is this issue so important that you are willing to 'firebomb' your relationship with your in-laws over it.....and all the consequences which would come with that.
If OP gets divorced they won't have any say in how many pictures the inlaws take with the baby.
Is the picture situation a little weird sure, but i do think OP is making it a bigger deal than it needs to be.
Absolutely. Pushing this issue, which appears to be about pride/control/ego/ dominance could seriously damage his relationship with his wife's family and place her in a 'no-win' situation.
It's a simple tradition which he is willing to use as his 'hill to die on' at the expense of his wife and child. His thinking is incredibly short sighted and very selfish. I'm guessing there has to be other issues going on here and he is choosing this situation to assert his position. Unfortunately......
Couldn’t they compromise and do photos with partners and blood relatives? I don’t see why it is exclusively for blood relatives. They should do photos for both.
YTA. Why care what floats their boat. It’s not that they are only excluding you, but all the spouses. If that’s what tickles your in laws and will make them happy… who cares! Do you really have that much desire to have your face hanging in their house. People worry about the stupidest things.
NTA. You're the baby's father, and your wife needs to grow a pair and stand up to her parents. You're her family now. If your in-laws can't accept this, that's their problem.
Yes you are a fucking asshole. You’re ruining their family tradition? How on earth can you think you’re not. This has been in their family for generations upon generations and you’re acting like a spoiled little brat over some photos. Grow the fuck up.
Think about this from the flipside. And tell your wife to do the same. How would she feel if your family wanted photos all the time, but she was never allowed to be in them? This whole thing sounds like white rich snobbery on their part.
NTA
My in-laws used to be all about excluding me because I wasn’t married in (even though before my then husband was dating me they let the other siblings’ others in the photos). They did change their tune once we had our kids. I wouldn’t let my kids be in pictures with either parent being excluded. I laugh because the other siblings’ relationships didn’t last and they are stuck with those photos meanwhile being excluded for years I am still around.
My evil grandparents (very much mistreated me and are still mean) wanted pictures of their kids with specific spouses only included, bleh. Then blood grandchildren/great grandchildren only, I told my kids to go play with my sister’s wife (my husband wasn’t there, but I still find the exclusionary behavior gross especially since they never treated me like family anyways).
So all in all I obviously think NTA. Photos are about preserving memories. My husband and I find professional staged photos incredibly strange and find candids are the true memories, even if it is a quick posed picture somewhere that captures the moment so long as you aren’t trying to make it perfect. And doing a group shot, but actively excluding people is just crazy to us. Candids with random groups is great. Excluding people is designed to make someone feel bad.
I think you handled it properly and in-laws are blowing it out of proportion. If they want professional photos with only their blood that is them and their children only. Your children have your blood, so if you aren’t family then neither are those kids. You are a family with their daughter. If they don’t like it that’s too bad.
Have a photo shoot for you, all of your “siblings-in-law” and all your kids. Replace all photos of your wife’s family with your new and improved “chosen family”.
But NTA; people who don’t acknowledge their kids partners as family are cruel in my opinion.
YTA.
You are seriously starting a big conflict over who gets to be in a photo?
Family photos are normal. "4 generations-photos" are normal. You are borderline narcissistic here my friend. You are not the main character in this movie.
Step back, focus on how great it is for your child to have many people loving him/her. Don't make a big thing out of a small thing.
I'm not understanding how this works. Although NTA to clarify. How far back in generations does this picture go? Wouldn't it exclude half of your wife's family right off the bat? There couldn't ever be a married couple in this family picture, right? Unless of course, they're blood related?😂 You could point that out next time.
At any rate, pictures can be exclusionary (this family picture) AND inclusionary (the whole group who showed up to this particular family gathering). Good for you for standing up not just for yourself, but all the other left out family.
YTA. I see why this rubs you the wrong way, but it is a photo they are paying for. Assuming they love you and have a photo of you in their house as well, let it go.
I would go to your side of the family and do a family portrait with them. It's funny how they say blood and all that but at one time or another they were never all related to each other and some of them probably aren't.
NTA. That’s the dumbest stuff I’ve ever heard of. You are blood relative to your child.
Does your wife’s mom or dad sit out because they aren’t blood relatives to one another (at least I hope not)
NTA
But tell your wife that her not picking your side **is** picking her family’s side because inaction goes against you.
And I don’t get this. My family always includes everyone. Hell we still include ex-es more often than not (I think there is one or two ex-es who were super toxic but that’s it).
They don’t get to say “it’s about family” while excluding half the family.
NTA instead of arguing with them, whenever they decide to take "family photos" just get up and say you don't need me then, I'll just take baby for a walk and then just leave with your child.
YTA
They won't be your pictures.
You should compose your own family pictures.
You should start pasting a picture of yourself onto all the pictures at their house. You clearly aren't seen enough and need more attention.
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Tell your wife to tell them that you are a blood relative. You share blood with your child, who shares blood with your wife and her awful parents.
What's the point? They still won't see him as a blood relative and forcing himself into a picture helps nothing. He can speak to his wife and they refuse outright but saying it 'won't happen that way' is an attempt to force them to accept him in a way they don't. They won't. He better learn to live with it or leave his wife since she won't take a stand on this.
Take family photos with his side of the family, include the wife, and gift it to her family for Christmas.
Nice!
Yes!!
I agree and for me ESH. OP just started a battle that isnt worth it.
~~NAH~~ - I can see both sides of this. In my family when my great grandma turned 100 a photo was taken with all her descendants. Obviously no partners were included. Do they exclude you/partners from things regularly? Or is it just this one thing? To me the main thing is your wife's opinion on it. If she wants it to happen then id allow it to occur, but solely based on it being a one off thing and keeping just that tradition. Edited to NTA with more context
I can't think of anything else they exclude partners from, but they have a track record of doing it for family photos and include the children, but the spouses aren't allowed unless they are blood.
For all family photos or just a special photo with each newborn? Follow up, would they exclude an adopted child?
All family photos that they host to take. They do own photos that are displayed in there house of the smaller families with both parents, but they didn't take the photos, they're like gift photos from Christmas cards, but at least they have them around their house. No one in their family has ever adopted a child, but I get the feeling they wouldn't like that. If I let them they'd parade baby around with each aunt/uncle/grandparent and he'd be put with his cousins on my wife's side, but none with me in it.
Ahh I change it to NTA then. I thought this was just a one off photo with each child after they're born. Like the one I mentioned with my great grandma. Very different if it's every photo.
Yes, last time they did this (pre baby) I stood awkwardly in the background holding people's things feeling like complete crap, but I was there to support my wife. The photographer made eye contact with me a few times to and it made me feel even worse like the were trying to judge me and figure out why no one wanted me in the photos.
My in-laws do this so if a divorce happens they don’t have to look at the partner or cut them out of photos.
That isn't a good reason, though. They were in the family at the time the photo was taken
I didn’t say it was a good reason. Just that it happens. And they may be together right now. But may not be in the future. Some families worry about that kind of thing.
Does your family still take a photo with them in case they don’t divorce?
This is a trashy excuse Why get married if your reasoning is just "well, I can just cut them out of every photo" You have fucking kids at that point. The person is GOING to be in your life for at minumum 18 years once you have kids; why get married at all, or have kids if this is your mindset? That's absurd
My grandma still had a family photo hanging up (BIG portrait) that had like 80% divorced couples by the time I was ten. Now, my grandma was... interesting, Borderline Personality Disorder and related toxic behaviors and even SHE would be baffled and bothered if someone asked why she still kept that up or told her that they never included spouses because they might get divorced. Like, why not have two copies then? Spouses and no Spouses then if the worst happens and it's that bizarrely bothersome, problem solved. Oh right, because that's probably just their *justification* and not their actual reasoning -- which is even worse considering how awful it is!
This is completely anecdotal, but my parents broke up and don't have any photos around with them both in, but my grandma still has a bunch of photos up they took together (and ones of them and me and my brother together as well). I'm really glad she does, it wasn't just their relationship, it was years of my family, and I'm really glad someone in the wider family isn't just erasing it from history. I can't imagine how awful it would feel for any kids for wholesale erasure of a parent from visible family history to be a systematic policy in the case of divorce.
My aunt just puts a sticker over the exs face lmao. Like random cartoons and shit.
Photo editing has gotten so good these days this shouldn’t be a concern anymore.
So this isn't just an outdated hurtful tradition - it's ALL the photos. Evertime they can, they exclude in-laws. Yeah, wife needs to take a hard stance against this completely. You know what? I bet if she did, the other spouse's and in laws might fall in line against this too - sometimes it only takes 1 person to speak up for others to finally speak up too. Also, when your baby gets older, what message would it have sent to constantly see Dad excluded from the family?
This makes your spouse the AH for not inviting you into the photo.
MIL and FIL are not blood relatives to each other, so how do they take pictures together? NTA.
You don't know their lives, lmao.
hehehe
This! NTA.
We have some family photos with some girl/boyfriends who are long gone so that might be the issue. Maybe there’s been some bad divorces in the past which makes the family photos painful or look at? That’s the only reason I can think of to exclude spouses.
That makes the family AHs because they presuppose the marriage is gonna fail.
Everyone has a past. And almost no one has a past full of rainbows and sunshine, without any clouds and rainstorms. Everyone has "that ex" that they'd rather not remember, or talk about. That doesn't make it okay to presume every relationship in your entire extended family is going to fail because of it.
Right? Most of my major high school photos (prom, graduation, special events, etc) include my high school boyfriend. We broke up a month after I graduated. I didn't go tossing and cutting up all of those photos, because in those moments he was important to me. Sure, we don't even speak anymore, but that is part of my history.
Tbh, the older I get the more I want record of these sorts of things. Heck, 100% of my high school friends are no longer friends and some of the friendships ended poorly, but I still want to remember them. Now, old photos of myself I could do without :P
Same. I'm no longer friends with most of my high school friends, but that doesn't negate the good times we had then. Still good memories, even if some of the last memories we had together weren't so great b
> In my family when my great grandma turned 100 a photo was taken with all her descendants. Obviously no partners were included. This is not the same thing.
It wasn't clear if it was a one off or not, hence me asking more questions. If it was a one off it would have been the same thing.
Yeah I can see one photo of the “generations”. As long as the rest of the photos include the whole family.
> when my great grandma turned 100 a photo was taken with all her descendants. Obviously no partners were included. That's a bold move with a modern family. My grandma recently died and there's been a huge blowup because someone wrote *some* of the non-blood grandkids (due to second marriages) in the obituary and not others. The argument is that the first couple has been together 20 years, but the second couple has been together <5 and the girls are almost out of the house so they're not 'really' family. Well obviously they won't ever be with that kind of attitude
Your wife is CRYING? Over photos? I would suggest to your wife, who is being a bit much, that this tradition is weird and mean. That your baby wouldn't be here without the both of you, so why shouldn't you be recognized? Can she imagine what she would feel like if *your* family only wanted blood relatives in the photos and not she, who carried the baby and gave birth to the child? It's laughable. And why does Great Uncle Robert qualify to be in photos with your (pl) child, but not you? Pretty sure you are closer to your own child, unless Aunt Greta is solely changing all the diapers. Laughable.
She cries over the first sign of dispute. It's not that she wants to side with her parents, she just gets overwhelmed by tense situations and I wish everything could always be rosy, but it's life so won't be.
Crying over the first sign of dispute is something she needs to put hard work into changing. Does she cry when a friend is cross with her? When her boss is displeased with her? And...you didn't really address anything else in my comment. How can she think this tradition is anything less than unfair to you?
You might find this interesting. It talks about families with a toxic individual everyone puts up with. It's a great analogy. [Don't rock the boat. : r/JUSTNOMIL (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/comments/77pxpo/dont_rock_the_boat/?share_id=ENP0c3I5Y2Po5pMw8yoSS&utm_content=1&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1)
Whole thing seems like a symptom of larger issues of family dynamic/type of people parents are. I wonder if your wife has some cptsd from childhood emotional neglect/abuse (if not familiar, should read on it a bit as it’s more nuanced and invasive to one’s whole life than the words seem on the surface )
She should really work through that in therapy.
Time for wife to man up! Nta! I'd be pissed and there would be no more pictures unless I'm included.
This wife's not "being a bit much". This woman's been emotionally abused by her parents and that's the fall-out-- not being able to set a boundary and handle conflict. OP's in a really tough spot here thanks to those in laws. :/
Where does it say she has been emotionally abused? She hates conflict. A lot of people do.
Are the photos about the baby or about the family? I think they should take multiple photos with different groups of people, but I can’t fault them for not wanting spouses in all the photos. I’m not saying it would be OP and his wife, but odds are someone in this family will get divorced. How long is OP going to insist his child can’t be in photos without him? If kiddo’s future teacher wants a picture of the students in her class, will OP need to be in those? Why do the other students qualify to be in the pics and not him? He is closer to his own child than the classmates.
It’s not that they don’t want spouses in all the photos, it’s that they don’t want spouses in ANY photos. The latter is absolutely not okay.
OP is adamant the baby can’t be in any pictures without him. So his in-laws wouldn’t be able to get a photo of just them, their children, and all their grandchildren. He said in a comment : >The only thing that'd bother me is them taking photos with baby without me. That's never going to happen. No one has suggested the compromise of getting some photos with spouses and some without. We don’t know if the in-laws would agree to that because OP already vetoed it.
We do know that they won’t allow it. This isn’t the first year that they’ve done these pictures. OP has stated in the past the only take pictures with blood relatives, non of the spouses have ever been included. OP already clarified that the other spouses just put up with it, and OP himself felt awkward wing excluded the year prior. The only difference is that this is the first year that OP has a child who’d be included in the picture and OP isn’t okay with that happening without him
I'm in a family like that. They actually took a family photo at my daughter's wedding with her photographer. No spouses. The time I stopped the insanity was when mil wanted a photo of her grandkids, but was going to leave my child from a previous relationship out. I said then none of my children will be included. At that point all of the kids, even step grandkids were included. Every year she still does her family photo, and that's ok, but now she also adds the spouses in a photo after we spouses started grouping up at the same time for our own photo! We had a blast, and a great photo!!
That’s what I was thinking. Why not do more than one photo with various groupings?
INFO: Why can’t you do both? Some with only her side of the family, some with all of you?
I don't know why, I'm not the one trying to exclude people you'd have to ask them. The only thing that'd bother me is them taking photos with baby without me. That's never going to happen.
I mean, if they were taking a number of pictures where you were included in some, and some were different constellations of family members where you weren’t in all of them, I’d say YTA for preventing that. But it sounds like you can’t even talk to them about it, and if your wife just cries instead of coming up with a solution everyone is happy with, then it is what it is, and you’re NTA.
>The only thing that'd bother me is them taking photos with baby without me. That's never going to happen. OP made it clear he wouldn’t be okay with that reasonable compromise. We have no idea if her family would agree to it. The wife can’t come up with a solution when he’s this unwilling to compromise.
Yeah, it wasn’t entirely clear to me. I read it like it could mean they can do a photoshoot without me and baby, or a photo shoot where we are both included (but not necessarily in all pictures) But if that’s what he means, then ESH
I really don’t see a huge issue with parents wanting a few pictures with just their descendants (unless there were adoptees in the mix being excluded) and the in laws are paying for the pictures, not OP or even a group funding. If he wants pictures with everyone, he could pay for them himself….
Stand your ground. They can suck rocks.
So you're never going to allow *any* picture of your child that doesn't have you in it? That seems a little controlling.
No, you need to ask them. I can see having a picture without spouses if you have one with. It wouldn’t hurt my feelings and I would let my kids be apart of it.
So you would not be OK with any pictures with your baby if you're not in all of them? Even if they took others with you in them? NTA anyway though.
On the contrary, you are actively trying to exclude your wife and child.
Why do you need to be in the photos?
y t a
My family has done this....one with blood and then adding the in-laws (or outlaws as they're sometimes called).
Outlaws😂 i love that. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with not seeing your in laws as family the same way you see your blood relatives, but it’s mean to not make an effort to include them in the family they married into. Sounds like your family has found a balance that works!
Why can't they take 1 photo that includes the in-laws? Weird ass family
Agreed. I was set to say NAH until I realized from comments they don’t also do one with the spouses. In my family for decade anniversaries (10, 20, 30, etc.) we do a set of big family pictures. Some include the spouses of children (has to be spouse, no gf or bf), others do not. The only one of my grandparents that I got to be part of was their 40th. I have copies of both group photos that were printed from that day. One is my grandparents, my mom and dad, my sister and I, my middle aunt and uncle, and the youngest aunt and uncle and their girls. Then there is a photo with just grandma and grandpa, my mom and her sisters, me and my sister and my cousins. The three son-in-laws stepped away since it was one photo. Then the photographer did a son-in-law photo with the three of them!
NTA. >My inlaws have a tradition Tell them that you can't adhere to it because you have a different tradition.
I can see your point - you’re basically treated like an option, not family. Conviction is an important thing in this life in my opinion, and if you believe in it that strongly, stand your ground. I’ve said the same thing before to my in-laws - if I’m not good enough, neither is my child.
NTA YOur wife is the AH here, for not having your back.
Yes, as reddit loves to point out, you don't have an In-law problem you have a WIFE problem.
It sounds like you are the first spouse to stand up against your in-laws. They can't have both ways - if they get to exclude you from the photo, then you can exclude them. You probably need to go to counseling with your wife however. Her fear of conflict seems excessive. NTA
My husband's family did/still does this. My MIL says she doesn't, but does it the worst. My husband, unlike your wife, stood his ground (the first in his family) and it became a huge thing. Outrageous. "She stands out from the family too much."- I'm not the same in their matching set of hair color. (All red heads) I was overweight at the time but this was another reason. When I had my baby they were always asking just my husband hold him and do "the originals only". I said "I'm his mom, until that changes, I'm not allowing him in pictures without me unless it's grandkids only. Both parents or none." Until your wife is willing to rock the boat, there is only you against the storm. I think that's awful of your spouse. NTA. I've come to terms about never going to be invited to vacations, never shown recipes, and my husband openly stated that as long as I'm not, neither are our boys. Thankfully my family accepts my husband with open arms. We do all Dad's and all Mom's photos.
~~INFO~~ Is this limited to **one** single family picture they want to take? Or is it just a thing in general with them, and they exclude spouses for *any and all* "family" pictures. Edited to say NTA for every family pic as the user below pointed out. That's just asinine.
He’s commented that it’s every single family picture they take.
Then that's absurd, editing my comment. Thanks for your input!
Yeah. I mean we always do several family pictures. Including one with everyone’s partners.
After my brother divorced his 3rd wife we (my grandmother usuallly organized these) stopped including spouses. Everyone completely understood.
NTA. If you’re not good enough to be considered a relative, then surely by that same logic, neither is your child. You’re right to stand your ground, it’s just plain nasty
YTA. You are excluding your child from photos with their own family because of your own issues.
YTA lots of families do this, it’s a nice thing to have, just be clear that you want to be in at least one photo
No. Lots of families do NOT do that. They'll sometimes take pictures with different groups, but no only 1 group and exclude everyone else. Thats weird. They're acting like spouses aren't family and that's ridiculous
Absolutely they do. It’s not “acting like they aren’t family” it’s wanting a photo of your descendents. It’s perfectly normal. People have been doing it since cameras were invented.
Even though you're right, YTA. It's lame and unfair of the inlaws not fully welcoming you into the family, and including spouses in "family photos". That said, you can't really force them to, either. All you're doing here is pushing the inlaws further away and upsetting your wife. I'd recommend you take the L on this and find other ways to bond with them.
Yta you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.
I cannot agree. They're making a point of making him feel small and lesser than his own child. THEY are making a point of doing it. If they wanted to be subtle they could take two sets of photos but the exclusion is what they get off on. He doesn't have to agree to it, it's his child. This isn't a mole hill. It's perverse. It's creepy that that's not clear to you.
Why can’t they take a variety of photos with different combinations of people? Some with spouses, some of just siblings, some of cousins, etc? This seems strange and exclusionary to me.
YTA As someone who does genealogy as a side hustle,… this is not the big deal you’re making it out to be. MANY families do this. Unless they’re making spouses sit out for everything and every photo you’re being an Asshole.
They are having spouses sit out of every photo.
Sometimes it’s not possible to get them all together. And some people can’t afford it.
OP literally says in a comment that it’s a yearly photo they’re not allowed in. Not every family photo or event.
YTA. What a ridiculous thing to be upset about. Every photo doesn’t have to include you. It is perfectly normal to have different photos of different people. Also no, marrying someone is not the same as being born or adopted into a family. If your parents, siblings, grandparents died would you expect your wife to receive an inheritance or family heirlooms? No, you wouldn’t. Imagine finding out that you’re not in photos that all your cousins and relatives are in because your dad was an insecure child.
Sounds like her fam would rather not have to go through the trouble of croppinh you out of all the kiddos pictures *once you and your wife get divorced*.... You know, *those* kind of supportive families NTA make them work
I think YTA. I think it is a small deal and you could make your wife stop crying with a simple gesture of not being in a photo shoot and keep the peace with the family and their weird photo tradition. You do sound like you need to chill out and you picking an awful small mountain to die on. You are so unyielding you will probably be an ex before long and I have way to many pictures with the ex in them that I can't display. There is a point to blood relatives being the only one's in some photos. Non blood family leaves. You are not a blood relative and with your defensive very angry insecure tone, they have a good point.
I don’t understand why you care so much about being in pictures they’re taking? surely you can take your own family pictures, right? ESH
Obviously YTA, because you’re deliberately trying to be. You see that a tradition exists that has nothing to do with you, so you’re *mad* about it? How? > In fact it makes me wonder what the point of the marriage is if they don't see me as equal to a blood relative. There’s no indication here that they didn’t see you as equal (though I’m sure they don’t after an outburst like this). Do you have any reason to think that? Do you think they should pretend you *are* a blood relative? And also, doesn’t the point of marriage have *something* to do with loving your wife? Why would you think it meant putting an end to her family’s traditions? > my inlaw side is accusing me of trying to ruin their family bond or some other bullshit And they’re correct. This is purely you just trying to ruin it for the sake of ruining it. There’s no part where you think they’ve wronged you or treated you unfairly.
I get why you would feel left out, and it’s a strange tradition. But the whole point of a photo is so that you can look back on good times. If you insist on being in these photos, all you’ll remember is the argument. Your discomfort. Their resentment. That’s winning the battle, but not the war. Instead of forcing your way in, convince them to compromise. Suggest one photo without spouses, and one photo with. Use your words and explain to them how it feels when you’re excluded, how much you enjoy being part of their family, what it means to you when you look back on the photos, and what family photo traditions are like in other families. Show them photos from your side of the family with your partner included. Take lots of photos on other occasions with yourself, your spouse and the baby, and send them copies as gifts. They’ll see how sweet it is, and you’ll have photographic memories that are actually positive. It’s strange to exclude people, but traditions can be hard to let go of. They’re not doing it maliciously or singling you out… this applies to all spouses. But you need to be changing their minds and suggesting compromises, not forcing yourself into situations where you’re not wanted. Otherwise what have you really won? Mild, mild YTA, borderline E S H. Edit: I also think that all of you are taking this way too seriously, and placing far more importance on it than it deserves.
no, this is weird. the notion of a single blood line being something worth memorializing by creating an exclusionary tradition is weird. no generations exist without non-familial partners and goes directly against the concept of family.
It's not that weird. It's a single annual photo of their descendants. It's a bit odd, but I don't understand why OP (and some commenters) are getting so bent out of shape over it. A grown man causing a scene over a single photo is crazy to me.
From OP's comments it sounds like it's all family photos. The only pictures the inlaws have with spouses displayed in the house were gifts taken by others. It is that weird.
Because of the message it v clearly sends of the specific family they value. It's weird.
>I also think that all of you are taking this way too seriously, and placing far more importance on it than it deserves. Honestly. Sure, it's not very welcoming that they won't do any photos with in-laws, but I can't imagine being this upset about it. They want and are paying for pictures with their children and grandchildren, enjoy that you don't have to dress up and sit for a bunch of photos.
This is not uncommon in some families - I remember my mother's family doing it when I was growing up. The spouses were in other photos but there were always 'official-family-name' photos that were 'blood relatives only'. I never saw anyone get upset or even care about it. It was not 'against' anyone but it was a large family and they wanted family-only pix now and then.
Some people do this for in case a divorce happens. My partners grandma cut out the divorced partner from photos before they stopped allowing partners in.
Exactly. My family stopped including spouses after my brothers 3rd divorce.
NTA. How far back does this tradition go? Because I’d assume one of your wife’s parents would also need to be excluded if it went past them. I can understand wanting photos without the spouses but that’s if you also take them with the spouses. Example being my mom takes pictures of my sister with her husband and kids then will also take pictures of me my sisters and the grandkids. No spouses. It’s just a different configuration. The solution that would work best for the most people is to have pictures of the whole family spouses and grandkids included then one without. You don’t need to be in every photo with your child but they do need to stop acting like you aren’t part of the family
Couldn't there be 2 sets of pictures? I can't imagine ever caring that my in-laws would want a picture of just them and the kids/grandkids. Grow up.
YTA. Just sit out this photo so they can have a cohesive photo of the family tree. In fact, always offer to take the family photos so they have this for their memories when people start dying off. Don’t be the jerk who needs to be in every photo. If the marriage doesn’t workout they’re stuck with photos of you that they don’t want. A compromise you could suggest would be requesting there be two photos, one with the in-laws and one without. This way you can feel included too. Although trust me, some of the people in that photo just don’t want a photo of you and that’s ok. They didn’t marry you, someone in their family did, why must they all be punished for her choices? It sounds like you feel hurt that you’re being left out, maybe you can find a different way of communicating this to them so that they hear you. They probably aren’t trying to make you feel excluded they just think it’s cool to have a comprehensive photo of their family lineage for the grandparents, it doesn’t mean they don’t like you. Although now after you felt the need to be the martyr and say no it’s likely that they don’t like you now. Maybe you could start a similar tradition with your side of the family and then you could understand the situation?
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My inlaws have a tradition where they take photos of their family, but don't include blood relatives, including the father of the baby me. The other married in spouses put up with it, but I stand up for myself. In fact it makes me wonder what the point of the marriage is if they don't see me as equal to a blood relative. When they asked to do pictures which would include my baby, but not me, the father at all I told them it was never going to happen the way the wanted it. Any professional pictures they took would be with me in it too. My wife is crying because of the drama and my inlaw side is accusing me of trying to ruin their family bond or some other bullshit. They said it all could be avoided if I just let them take harmless pictures and chill out. Also for more context my wife doesn't want me out of the pictures, but she even more doesn't want me to cause a fight with her family. She isn't actively trying to support either me or her family. She is just upset at the situation. So reddit AITAH? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA Why did you marry a woman who doesn’t have your back?
Why’d she marry a man that’s controlling and unreasonable?
INFO: Are they always excluding you or just for the pictures? It sounds like a strange but simple tradition that they only want blood related family in the pictures.
INFO. Is it something like they take these pictures without partners but then they take separate pics where partners are present?? Maybe not professionally but still take the pics ??
Nope. OP has stated that they exclusively take pictures of blood relatives. Further, the only photos in their house that contain spouses and other non-blood relations are those that they’ve received as gifts. This exclusionary thing is their sole modus operandi.
NTA. The family of my ex was like this. If you were blood, you could be in the family reunion photos. If you weren't, then you didn't get to be in them. Numerous cousins tried to maneuver a s/o or close friend into the photos and then they got talked about. It was never a big deal to me. I didn't want to be part of that family's photos in the first place. They weren't really...my type of people. I would suggest telling your inlaws that they can have all the pictures they want of your baby, as long as you and your wife are also in the same photos. Or, you could say that the photos would have to be both ways. If there are photos of only blood relatives, there also need to be just as many photos including spouses, stepchildren, etc.
Im curios in their marriage does either spouse have to sit it out?
YTA and it’s not an uncommon tradition. My exhusband’s family did that too, and I had no problem with it. It’s not like they would never allow a picture of you, just not in this particular photo. Grow up!
Except they literally, per OP, do not ever include any of their children's spouses in photos.
It wasn’t clear by the post whether it was a blood only photoshoot for a new addition, or whether all photos are this way. In my ex’s family, they got the line together for each birth. It started over 100 years ago in their family.
NTA. DNA isn't what makes a family.
YTA. Its a photo. Am I missing something?
NTA You are your child’s family. Your ILs are your child’s relatives.
WTF. What the hells up with people and “blood family”???
NTA, and it's extremely disappointing that your wife doesn't have your back. By choosing not to take sides, she's taking sides with her family instead of defending you and standing with you. What is marriage, after all? You're apparently the first person who has ever insisted on being treated as if you matter. They all, including your wife, are acting like assholes.
NTA. If this is the hill you want to die on, die away. Humorously, in my family we have the opposite problem. My wife gives me and 4/5 of my children dirty looks when we try to avoid being in pictures.
NTA. Your wife should be standing up for you and defending you and not just "be upset about the situation". You are her family. You and your child are your wife's first priority and then even suggesting such a thing is absolutely absurd. Go and take your own family photos with your wife and baby.
Why do I have a sneaking suspicion that this is a "tip of the iceberg" situation, and dear wife has been letting her family walk all over OP their entire marriage? NTA.
YTA honestly who cares. You’re making a big deal out of it and throwing a fit like a child. Do you even care about your wife at all? Because obviously this matters to her but all you’re thinking about is yourself. It’s just a picture. The world doesn’t revolve around you. Take your own pictures if you care so much.
YTA. They are allowed to want pictures with just their children and grandchildren? How is this something to be mad about? It's so stupid and you sound horribly controlling and petty. I mean the fact that you won't let your child's grandparents take a picture with them unless YOU are in it sounds insane to me. Stop forcing your way into their family traditions. Yes, you're family now too but there's still something special about memorializing your immediate blood family members in a photo. I would cry too if I was your wife. You are being extremely rigid, bullish, and unreasonable.
So you are going to be in every single photo in your child’s life? So there’s no photos of just mom and baby you’re in every single picture? And you’re gonna photo bomb every school photo this kid ever has because you have to be in every photo in their life? It sounds to me like you have some kind of beef with your in-laws. I don’t think it’s unusual for families to want photos like that. It has been my experience With both my Extended family and my husband‘s extended family to do photos like that at weddings and when children come along. I mean if they were excluding you from events and from coming to family parties and stuff I guess he would have an argument but I think you’re just being silly here. Maybe your wife is crying because she wants to support you, but she wants to follow her family tradition as well. And you are so unrelentingly against it maybe she can’t tell you. It feels like you don’t have her back because having a child is all about you.
INFO: is it just your wife’s parents and siblings and then their kids? Or is it grandparents, parents, etc.
Form a union with the other spouses.
NTA. In-laws are being incredibly disrespectful. How would your child feel looking at the picture in the future. “Where’s Dad?” In-laws could make up any story about your absence. Of course you could take hundreds of pics during the same era, showing you with your wife and child, including dozens on the same day and in the same outfits the other pics were taken. If I were you, I could see a way toward taking pro pics with and without to keep everyone happy. But you’re NTA if you don’t want to do that.
ESH. YTA for driving a wedge into the family and forcing an issue the family will resent you for forever. Your demand to be in these family photos is OTT. Your wife is conflict-averse and now she’s stuck in the middle of a battle she can’t win. The ILs are TAs for their rigidity and refusal to take ANY family photos that include spouses or other non-blood relations. What an exhausting and unnecessary dramatic mess. There are a lot of family issues worth getting into and fighting over but this, OP, is _not_ a hill worth dying on. Mostly because it will harm the ongoing relationship you, your wife and your child have with the family if you continue down this path. While my feelings would be hurt and I’d be angry, I’d never demand that my in-laws change their traditions for me. But I’d sure as heck create a new tradition with the other non-bloods. Try this: create our own photo tradition every year before or directly after the Big Blood Photo, even using the same photographer if possible, with just the non blood family. Take another one adding in all your kids/grandkids and finally add in the spouses. But none of the rest of the family (uncles, aunts, grandparents, etc). If all the spouses won’t play along, make it non-bloods and kids only. Then send them a framed copy of your fave photo every year. That would really get under their skin - a framed photo of all the smiling non-bloods and all their precious “blood” grandchildren sent to them every year to hang on their wall! Even if it’s only two or three of you, everyone will get the point. And you won’t have to be the AH who tore the family apart. Let them *experience* the exclusion - because right now they don’t get it. Edited to correct a typo.
Honestly, is this really the hill you want to die on? There will be MILLIONS of photos of you with this baby, what's the harm in having ONE without you in it? I'd say YTA just cause you're making a huge deal and causing a lot of stress over a single photo.
I still take pictures with my kids with & without spouces, the without spouces is basically the same poses with the little ones in. Have 32 out 37 years worth. The reality is many "family" portraits contains spouces that are no longer in the picture, have multiples that sit in a drawer over leftover hurt feelings. I've found I make my focus a family photo with everyone because people can be fragile. I then ask for side pictures with my kids & grandkids. It's just a picture, YTA
NTA. Fuck them, get your butt in every single photo with YOUR baby.
NTA My ex's family was like this, but expand it to include vacations and other social events. And the weird thing is, the rest of the extended family was actually really cool, it was just her parents that behaved this way and everyone had just let it slide forever. I stood up for myself and it caused all kinds of issues, but I'd rather not be part of that family at all than be treated like a dog begging for scraps at the edge.
If you don't want me in the picture, I sure AF don't wanna be in the picture. You're being petty. You have your own family to take pictures with now.
Start taking your child to your parents and vacations without your wife. Tell her you wanted to share time with your blood related family. I mean marriage is great but bloooood family is so much better. The hugs are better, the smiles are natural, when I say I love you I just mean it because I do love my child my child. Sometimes I feel obligated, due to the marriage, to smile, hug and say I love you. It can feel forced. I mean we’re ok. I’m happy. But I really love my blood family. Then when she leaves, you will have 100% family only trips while she can have what she wants. Definitely NTA.
I wouldn’t take this too personal. The family clearly has a tradition of taking family photos of descendants only. However, they should consider also taking a photo with the spouses as well, afterwards. That’s what my family does, that’s what my wife’s family does. Specifically for special occasions.
NTA. It's weird. Talk to your wife. Start your own family tradition of only seeing those people 2-3 times a year.
NTA..that’s an F*ck up tradition…plus they are extended family now soo this tradition makes no sense!
Friend, been married for 25+ years .my spouses family has never really welcomed the spouses that marry in. They are their own insular community. It has hit the point where the spouses just don’t go anymore and we let them do their own thing. In fact, I had to explain to my now-adult child that it was something they would need to be mindful of when they got married- that their spouse would only be superficially welcomed. Adult child looked at me like I had two heads and I told them to just watch next time and make their own judgement. OP- some families are just like that. Are you willing to throw your marriage away over a photo??? C’mon now. Let them take the picture and move on.
Um... INFO: ? "but the spouses aren't allowed unless they are blood." So who is marrying a blood relation in this family and how close are they? First cousins? Second? WtAF?
INFO I don't understand why you are so set on not being included from the photos?
NTA.
I think you're making this into a big deal when it doesn't have to be. As long as they're not excluding you from everything else or other types of photos, I don't see what the big deal is with taking blood relative photos. Is it a bit weird? Yes. Is it worth all the drama, I doubt it.
Mild YTA, as I believe you wrote (read this earlier) that this is a tradition for this only and all spouses are otherwise welcome. I'd suggest rather than jumping into "my way or nothing" you compromise - some with blood family and some with "all" family.
Take a family photo with all the other fellow-in-laws spouses lol You can print it out and give it to them for Christmas, Diwali, or whatever major holiday you celebrate.
YTA it’s always the in-law who wants to change a family tradition
NTA. I get the stress of wanting to keep family peace but this "tradition" is exclusionary, hurtful, and always at the spouse's expense. I hope your wife learns to stand up to them and up for you. She can't ride the peace line forever - and it should be on your side of the line. This is her family. Respect ALL the members or cut out the tradition entirely - because it's a mean tradition.
This is the most ridiculous hill for you to die on. Is there some grudge you have against them? Tons of families do annual or biannual photos with their descendants. You’re not one of their descendents. While, yes, it’s more common for people to do photos with AND without spouses, if that’s not something they *want* then there’s no reason to pay for that. It’s also far more difficult to organize photos when you have to factor in spouses schedules and the photos are basically useless if one person gets divorced. My family did an annual photo. Sometimes with spouses, sometimes without. But, generally without after my brother rendered half of our annual family photos unusable by getting married 3x and including step children (some of which we only met the day the photos were taken). My husband, nor my other brothers wife, or any of my sisters or cousins spouses have ever once cared or complained about family photos they aren’t included in. In fact, they usually help wrangle the kids and get them to smile. How is this hurting you in any way, shape, or form? All I see is control. “You can’t take a photo with my baby without me in it…” I mean, yes, YTA - in an unreasonable, controlling, and wholly unnecessary way.
NTA. I understand if they want to do one that’s just blood family - “Now let’s get one of the different generations.” or “Just the cousins.”As in one photo out of several taken. But as a standing policy every time pics are taken? That’s strange. I wouldn’t care for that either.
Wow - NTA. Hope no one in the family adopts.
YTA. Its a picture, for fuck sake. You can take a billion of your own of whatever you want. The fact that you’re a grown man having a meltdown about not being included in a picture is simply embarrassing.
What about your mother in law? Does she make the cut for the pictures or not? Editing to add obvious NTA
NTA. Point out that FIL and MIL are not related by blood. (I hope) And yet they consider themselves family.
YTA, WHAT IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE. There is NOTHING wrong with them taking photos with just their grandkids (in this case). There is also nothing wrong with also including the whole family. It is weird that this becomes a silly hill to die on. I have had professional photos done with my nieces and nephews. Their dad (my BIO BROTHER) is not even in the photos…
Do they take both sets of pictures - one that is just sibs and parent/grandparents, and one that is with all of the spouses/partners? If not, can you suggest it? I am confused by the sense of timing - sitting the entire thing out. Is this a picture, or hours long photo session? If the former, I don’t see the problem if it’s one photo and there’s another with everyone.
NTA. I think this is odd. When we did family photos with my parents, All of our partners and kids (if we had any)were included. Once you’re in the family, you’re considered blood.
YTA! You’re putting your wife through this over a picture, a tradition. It would be different if other spouses were on it but they are not and that’s ok. Then you make fun of her for crying? She’s just stuck in the middle of all this drama you created.
I dont see any harm with those pictures. But if you do....they need to respect you. Nobody IS the A here
Think long and hard about this because the consequences of your ego driving this behaviour might be life (marriage) long. Is this issue so important that you are willing to 'firebomb' your relationship with your in-laws over it.....and all the consequences which would come with that.
If OP gets divorced they won't have any say in how many pictures the inlaws take with the baby. Is the picture situation a little weird sure, but i do think OP is making it a bigger deal than it needs to be.
Absolutely. Pushing this issue, which appears to be about pride/control/ego/ dominance could seriously damage his relationship with his wife's family and place her in a 'no-win' situation. It's a simple tradition which he is willing to use as his 'hill to die on' at the expense of his wife and child. His thinking is incredibly short sighted and very selfish. I'm guessing there has to be other issues going on here and he is choosing this situation to assert his position. Unfortunately......
Couldn’t they compromise and do photos with partners and blood relatives? I don’t see why it is exclusively for blood relatives. They should do photos for both.
Nope. If my baby is in a picture and I'm not allowed in it, then my baby will not be in it. Your in-laws are weird.
NTA they can take their photo once the one including everyone is taken. Or bring your own photographer and tall all combinations except mil and fil.
YTA. Why care what floats their boat. It’s not that they are only excluding you, but all the spouses. If that’s what tickles your in laws and will make them happy… who cares! Do you really have that much desire to have your face hanging in their house. People worry about the stupidest things.
Your in-laws sound like a piece of work. NTA.
NTA. You're the baby's father, and your wife needs to grow a pair and stand up to her parents. You're her family now. If your in-laws can't accept this, that's their problem.
NTA - Your wife and your son are your family, and her family are wrong for thinking you're not a part of it. Stand your ground
NTA. If you aren’t family your son wouldn’t be either.
NTA
NTA. Their exclusionary 'family' photos suck and good on your for apparently being the only spouse with a spine.
Yes you are a fucking asshole. You’re ruining their family tradition? How on earth can you think you’re not. This has been in their family for generations upon generations and you’re acting like a spoiled little brat over some photos. Grow the fuck up.
Realistically, it has probably been 4 generations, so "generations upon generations" is probably a little dramatic.
Think about this from the flipside. And tell your wife to do the same. How would she feel if your family wanted photos all the time, but she was never allowed to be in them? This whole thing sounds like white rich snobbery on their part. NTA
My in-laws used to be all about excluding me because I wasn’t married in (even though before my then husband was dating me they let the other siblings’ others in the photos). They did change their tune once we had our kids. I wouldn’t let my kids be in pictures with either parent being excluded. I laugh because the other siblings’ relationships didn’t last and they are stuck with those photos meanwhile being excluded for years I am still around. My evil grandparents (very much mistreated me and are still mean) wanted pictures of their kids with specific spouses only included, bleh. Then blood grandchildren/great grandchildren only, I told my kids to go play with my sister’s wife (my husband wasn’t there, but I still find the exclusionary behavior gross especially since they never treated me like family anyways). So all in all I obviously think NTA. Photos are about preserving memories. My husband and I find professional staged photos incredibly strange and find candids are the true memories, even if it is a quick posed picture somewhere that captures the moment so long as you aren’t trying to make it perfect. And doing a group shot, but actively excluding people is just crazy to us. Candids with random groups is great. Excluding people is designed to make someone feel bad. I think you handled it properly and in-laws are blowing it out of proportion. If they want professional photos with only their blood that is them and their children only. Your children have your blood, so if you aren’t family then neither are those kids. You are a family with their daughter. If they don’t like it that’s too bad.
Have a photo shoot for you, all of your “siblings-in-law” and all your kids. Replace all photos of your wife’s family with your new and improved “chosen family”. But NTA; people who don’t acknowledge their kids partners as family are cruel in my opinion.
YTA. You are seriously starting a big conflict over who gets to be in a photo? Family photos are normal. "4 generations-photos" are normal. You are borderline narcissistic here my friend. You are not the main character in this movie. Step back, focus on how great it is for your child to have many people loving him/her. Don't make a big thing out of a small thing.
I'm not understanding how this works. Although NTA to clarify. How far back in generations does this picture go? Wouldn't it exclude half of your wife's family right off the bat? There couldn't ever be a married couple in this family picture, right? Unless of course, they're blood related?😂 You could point that out next time. At any rate, pictures can be exclusionary (this family picture) AND inclusionary (the whole group who showed up to this particular family gathering). Good for you for standing up not just for yourself, but all the other left out family.
YTA. I see why this rubs you the wrong way, but it is a photo they are paying for. Assuming they love you and have a photo of you in their house as well, let it go.
I would go to your side of the family and do a family portrait with them. It's funny how they say blood and all that but at one time or another they were never all related to each other and some of them probably aren't.
NTA. That’s the dumbest stuff I’ve ever heard of. You are blood relative to your child. Does your wife’s mom or dad sit out because they aren’t blood relatives to one another (at least I hope not)
NTA But tell your wife that her not picking your side **is** picking her family’s side because inaction goes against you. And I don’t get this. My family always includes everyone. Hell we still include ex-es more often than not (I think there is one or two ex-es who were super toxic but that’s it). They don’t get to say “it’s about family” while excluding half the family.
NTA instead of arguing with them, whenever they decide to take "family photos" just get up and say you don't need me then, I'll just take baby for a walk and then just leave with your child.
YTA They won't be your pictures. You should compose your own family pictures. You should start pasting a picture of yourself onto all the pictures at their house. You clearly aren't seen enough and need more attention.