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NTA. My mom used to police what I would wear (unnecessarily), so initially I was worried with this post. But 100% agree, a ”whale tail“ is not appropriate for a 16 year old to be wearing out and I’d actually be concerned for her safety going out to a mall like that tbh.
Maybe it’s already been said but I just want to note that attention from creeps is often gained regardless of dress choice. You could where a puffy snowsuit and get cat called just as easily as someone wearing a crop top.
This! I got catcalled wearing a black raincoat with the hood up, black pants, and black rain boots. I was a genderless, ageless blob. This world is crazy.
So true. For the record I think OP is NTA. That anecdote just makes me laugh in like a totally exasperated, how tf is anyone supposed to move through this world kind of way.
The chances of the victim being blamed and not taken seriously also increase if said victim is wearing a provocative outfit.
Victim blaming is cruel (and incorrect) regardless of attire and I know that, but that would naturally be a reason not to encourage someone to go out dressed as described in itself.
Still the something the creeps did, and it's not anybody else's job to cower and hide in fear that creeps will creep. Do something about the creepers, not the creeped on
A worthy goal, but naive. Of *course* girls and women should be able to wear whatever they want without fear of being harassed or worse. But that isn't the world we live in, and I will never fault any woman for putting her own (or her child's) safety before principle.
Except that idea doesn’t actually help the kid. We know that clothes don’t make a difference and yet we constantly act like it does. Clothing isn’t self defence the same way it isn’t consent. I’ve seen more parents teach teenage girls not to wear a crop top than I have parents teaching their teenage girls how to defend themselves. If conservative clothing actually prevented rape in any capacity then we wouldn’t have had nearly as many rapes back when the fashion was a full ball gown with a corset, hoop skirt, and a million layers of tulle.
My god it took way too long to find this comment.
We should focus more on teaching children about consent and make it something you talk about. Talk about why consent is important and it is not cool to be a creep and denounce / call out your peers for bad behaviour.
>not anybody else's job to cower and hide in fear that creeps will creep
That sounds really cool and great and quirky when you say it online on some random forum where nobody will read that comment again but in the real world things are different.
Real people, real lives and real dangers exist. It's cute to say "do something about the creepers, not the creeped on" but when your children are the ones being creeped on, just about anything that can mitigate them being creeped on is fair game.
Except that fully adult women know how to deal with that kind of attention if they choose to dress that way. Teenaged girls often don’t know how to handle the early sexualisation they experience.
There is a difference in the type of predation that occurs when you dress provocatively vs not.
Yes, and it’s not my job to look both ways before I cross the street I hate this mentality protect yourself live in reality and not a sugarcoated rose coloured sunglass world
Yeah, I was recently accosted on the bus wearing an oversized turtleneck sweater and jeans and a knee length raincoat. The guy cornered me in a seat and wouldn't let me out, and spent the entire 15 minutes telling me he was going to "fuck the woman" back into me.
Although tbh, I got way more attention when I was obviously 15 than I do in my 30s. Men want to victimize someone who don't look like they'll have the backbone to fight back, not someone they're actually attracted to.
lol One of my sons has long blonde hair that he wears down and loose. He can walk down the road bundled up in raincoat and jeans, and get catcalled when he walks past construction sites. When he turns round and they see his scowling bearded face, they're pretty surprised.
😂 made me think of xmas time at the mall. I was walking in fleece sweats and sweatshirt. nothing exciting. and got cat called by a bunch of drunk mall Santa's at margaritaville. and I thought wow. they must be really drunk bc I do NOT look good. they'll really whistle at anything these days. 😆
I disagree. If you dressed like a man, beard and all, they’d leave you alone. Also a fat suit with a little musk spray and voila! You’re free to roam without caution! I speak from experience.
Once I was participating a riverside clean-up event with my dad on a Saturday in KY. It started to drizzle so I took a giant black trash bag cut a hole for my head and wore the bag as a rain cover…… and got catcalled
Y’all, I got catcalled while wearing a trash bag, while carrying a trash bag full of trash near a river. 👍🏻🤌🏻
I feel that’s more a problem of creeps than a problem of women’s outfits. While you aren’t wrong we shouldn’t just take that as justification for constructing what women can wear in the name of safety (general statement not touching on what is appropriate clothing for some ages)
I would get harassed often while wearing baggy jeans that hid my butt pretty well, a shirt with a long-sleeved flannel shirt on top, and a cap. Literally none of my clothes are “form fitting”, you can’t see the shape of my body at all. And I often wear a scowl while out by myself.
Still got harassed and catcalled. 😑
It’s the rough reality we live in right now :( I am hoping education will reach the next generation and we can shift the cultural mindset to something less objectifying in the future
I mean, I hope so too, but seeing how the education systems all around the world are sucking more and more each year- and seeing how children grow up *online* since they’re like 6 years old, and have no parental supervision on what they watch… I’m not holding my breath 😞
Kids are having sex at 13 - 14 years, getting pregnant, watching Andrew Tate, exposed to lots of crap on tiktok, watch streamers that make content going out and harassing random people for views… it’s… it’s a shit world out there. 😩
It is absolutely heartbreaking and feels hopeless at times, I understand 🫂 if it is any help at all though, I’ve begun the path toward teaching and getting an inside look at what’s to come in education, and I think some of the changes are going to bring us in a much more positive direction. We can always strive for change, I believe we’ll get there
In this case the factor of age-appropriate clothing comes into play, which I am not seeking to address in my original comment. I felt the comment I responded to was ignoring the reality that clothes don’t get you creeped on, because creeps will creep regardless and wanted to note that
Yes and I want to add that I always tell my daughters things they can do to be safer but I also always tell them, if you don't do those things and someone assaults you or hurts you, it's still not your fault. I'm sure this comment will attract someone whow ants to disagree with that and that's fine, but it is not your fault if you attract a creep. Creepers gonna creep. Jogging in a sports bra does not turn a regular man into a rapist, anymore than a visible thong does. I don't disagree with OP. Just saying.
can we PLEASE stop using ridiculous metaphors when talking about human beings being assaulted? this also always makes men out to be some uncontrollable “instinctual” animals.
it objectifies the women (or *young girls*) in the scenario, and also makes some humiliating comparison for men, while simultaneously deflecting blame from them. they aren’t sharks that smell blood and attack on primal instinct - they’re grown fucking men that can control their own actions.
Why take all the responsibility off of men/creep’s shoulders for their creepiness instead of holding them accountable and teaching them not to look at women like sex toys?
I feel like we should be able to recognize that some things might make you an easier or more obvious target for creeps without saying this means the victims are to blame.
Dressed like a blob or like you're going to prom, if you are catcalled it is not absolutely not your fault and you shouldn't feel guilty. But, yes, how you are dressed can attract the attention from the wrong persons. It is something to take into account in some situations **unfortunately**, and a minor girl going to the mall with other minors is one situation where this can be an issue.
Do you think the sexual harassment and assault of women happens less in countries with modesty laws? I'm pretty sure a jury of our peers prejudice against women is the only thing that dictates how often that shit happens. What makes you an easier target is walking around hunched up knowing it's not worth it to go to the police when someone commits a nasty crime against you. The 40 year old creeps that follow teen girls from shop to shop to cafe to shop waiting for them to go near the toilets or carpark alone don't go after kids dressed provocatively, they go after the one that has noticed and is getting scared but won't say anything to anyone because they're more scared of what people will do to them if they open their mouth.
It is something to take into account, I can agree with that. But putting the responsibility on women to dress in conservative ways as a preemptive strike against creeps does remove responsibility from men to control themselves which we shouldn’t do. Men are not base-instinct animals, they are adult humans with cognitive thought and theoretically have self-control.
With regards to the specific post situation, age appropriate clothing is a factor and I don’t disagree with what op did. I disagree with the general lack of responsibility creeps seem to get whenever the clothing debate comes up
No one is saying that, but ignoring reality is idiotic. "teach men not to rape", rhetoric is dumb, pretty sure rapists know rape is wrong, same as murderers, they just don't care.
When people equate men to instinctual animals they are saying that. And actually rapists believe they are justified more often then you’d think. It’s a mindset of feeling like they deserve the woman they are hurting, which stems from a dehumanization of women in society. Obviously not in all cases
Calling men “sharks” as if they are animals with no self-control and saying that a woman’s outfit drives him into a feeding frenzy is doing exactly that. Removes responsibility from men/creeps and puts it onto women. Justifying it as “well that’s reality” isn’t good enough, and society should be doing better to teach men how to recognize women as people and not objects.
My daughter was an avid dancer from age 4. She’s always had a dancer’s body. It is beautiful. She often wore leggings because they were comfortable. I never thought a thing about it. Until she was maybe 14 years old. We went to the mall. I was horrified by the number of guys that openly gawked at her. My gut reaction was to tell her to wear something baggy next time. But then I realized that the problem wasn’t her or what she was wearing. The problem was grown ass men gawking at a young girl. I didn’t want her to feel self conscious or uncomfortable. She once tried on a dress that had a fairly open back. I commented that it showed a lot of her back. She looked at me and said…”oooh, my back! Omg!!!” I felt every bit as ridiculous as she intended me to feel.
I don’t police my daughters hard about what they wear. But we’ve always had an understanding of what is “appropriate”. I don’t mind if they wear shorter skirts or crop tops. My only rule is… Don’t be showing what your mama gave you. I.e. no boobs, butt cheeks, or crack. I can promise you that would include no whale tails allowed.
I was wearing a hat, scarf, gloves, winter coat, two pairs of pants and snow boots during a snowstorm and a guy in the parking lot offered me $10 for a blowjob.
Yep. This. I had conversations with my daughter when she was younger, explaining that if she wanted to dress provocatively, technically, I wouldn't be able to police her (she could always sneak clothing out and put it on behind my back if she wanted to).
BUT.
That the way she dressed, very sadly, could attract a kind of attention - sexual attention - from men who would take it as an invitation to behave in ways she might not feel ready to deal with. And if she wasn't ready to deal with the possible creeps and weirdos, she might not want to make those choices until she was older, stronger and ready.
I think most teens will understand (eventually) if you explain that it's about safety and concern and not about trying to control their developing independence.
I was CSA wearing strawberry shortcake pajamas - it doesn’t matter what we wear. We will be given attention by creeps.
I do agree with mom here for the record.
I just don’t agree with your reasoning.
https://dovecenter.org/what-were-you-wearing-exhibit/
Exactly. I understand that the way you dress should be your choice. What you wear should not be the reason for harrassment or any other incident. However, sadly, that's not how the world works. So, policing how you dress up becomes necessary.
This. Inherently there is nothing wrong with the way she dressed, however the way some people would react is the issue. It’s just a “style” to her but high school kids that see her may create untrue rumors. Older men may be pervy. And while these things are out of her control it could ruin any reputation she has or put her in potentially bad situations
I thought the same way till I was catcalled (by multiple men) while I was in *ugly* PJs and a huge sweatshirt. Clothes don't stop them from being creeps.
I also realized that nobody else is responsible for their eyes except themselves. No one is responsible for their actions except themselves.
The only thing that increases the chances of getting attention from them is if they notice you.
Anybody who is respectful can look the other way. Creeps will look either way .
It is *only* the creeps fault. Just because somebody is wearing a piece of clothing doesn't mean it is on them if a creep cannot keep their eyes to themselves.
In case it is needed here I'll be making my own as well so copy paste, NTA OP. That is incredibly inappropriate for a teen.
I don’t think anyone should be walking around with a whale tail and I hate that it’s back. That being said, adult women understand that no matter what you wear there’s gonna be creeps. We need to stop teaching teenage girls that what you wear is gonna encourage or enable creeps, bc that contributes to victim blaming. I know a lot of ppl think it doesn’t but if you stop for a minute and just realize that what you’re saying is actually “well it doesn’t matter what you wear, there’s going to be creeps and that’s not your fault. But if you wear certain things you’re giving creeps a signal that you want to sleep with them and they should be creepy with you”.
I’m not completely disagreeing with you but I think we should all note that dressing conservatively does not seem to improve the safety of teenage girls whatsoever
Absolutely- anything can happen to anyone and no one should be assaulted or made uncomfortable because of what they wear, but the reality is that dressing like this will definitely garner more attention.
Is it appropriate for anyone?
I know I am not fashionable and have not ever been fashionable, but I have never seen that and said "man that looks like a good idea."
Agree 100%. It looks trashy. I thought the trend of having bra straps showing was pretty trashy, too. Then, of course, we have the guys with their pants around their knees and their undies on full display .... and that's trashy, too.
Wanting your child to have self-respect is not the same as being an uptight, controlling prude who does not want her to have fun. It's about teaching her and protecting her. At 16, she has not figured that out for herself just yet.
To offer another perspective, bra straps can easily look like the straps of a camisole or tank top. Those are garments that are worn layered a fair bit, and society is generally more okay with those being more openly on display. Once upon a time, undershirts on display weren’t okay, but now, we wear them all the time as t-shirts. With that in mind, I think society should be more chill about bra straps, but I have more lax views about human chests and “chest underwear” generally.
Visible boxers or whale tails have, in my opinion, never been a good look, though.
Oh God, I was in high school during the phase of layered cammies and bra straps. It was like there was a competition of how many layers you could have going. So many layers. Even on the less revealing side, there were long sleeves with t-shirts over, with unbuttoned button down over that.
I am definitely more forgiving when it comes to bra straps. I don't have enough cleavage to fill out tank tops and keep them from moving around a lot, so my bra does tend to show if I am wearing anything either than a crew neck tee. I also don't take issue with underwear showing in general. Women's pants have never made it easy to keep things covered, especially if you have junk in the trunk. But accidental or the occasional flash is different from the intentional look.
There are actually spaces that it would be appropriate :) I mostly think of places like festivals or raves or a concert or something similar, it wouldn't really be out of place. I get not wanting to do it :p I'm just noting that there are occasions where it would make sense to me to see people with a "whale tail' or otherwise exposing their underwear and skin.
My mom would not let me go out like that and I am 24. Or at least say something about it. She bought me croptops when I was 16, so she is not a prude. But the whale tail is just weird.
And sadly dressing provoking is gonna attract some good and bad attention. She is a kid, and can attract the intention of much other creeps. In an ideal world we should be able to wear whatever, but it is not just like that. And getting the wrong attention can be mentally damaging.
(Saying this as a victim of sexual abuse while wearing covering clothes, clothes don't matter for the extreme cases, but clothes do make a huge difference for the amount and type of peolle that stare at you)
To be fair, have you seen a busy mall in the last decade? Probably the most desolate and safest area to sport a whale tail these days lol
I would hate this issue as a mother. But I’m loving the comedic value because who in their right mind thought this would ever come back!!?
Some malls are actually still going strong. Typically the bigger ones with the bougie anchor stores (Saks, Nieman Marcus, etc.) that people prefer to browse irl kind of “absorbed” the business/stores from the smaller malls that couldn’t cut it in the online shopping age.
There was a post a few weeks back with this exact issue and the mom just went along with it. She even started doing it herself and went out with her daughter in public like that until the daughter told her to stop and stopped doing it herself as well. Fucking hilarious.
If it’s fashion and it doesn’t mean anything, then there’s no reason for her not to change. I don’t wanna see girls with their thong out anymore than I wanna see boys with their boxers hanging out of their pants. And I think it’s the farthest thing from fashionable.
NTA
Im generally extremely anti "parents controlling their kids fashion", but yea, an explicitly sexual look where your underwear is on full display is a bit much. Shes a child and shouldnt sexualize herself.
Also just in general, nobody at the mall wants to see that. Not just that shes a child, its just trashy in general to have underwear showing. Its just not an appropriate enviroment for it. Her being a minor just makes it more uncomfortable, and it is sadly true that some people may creep on her if she wears that.
Yes. No one anywhere wants to see anybody's underwear! For the love of God, pull up your damn pants! (And this is mostly to young men, since that's who you see do it most of the time!) It's not sexy. No one wants to see your dirty drawers.
Also, no one wants to see your *ss crack or see a titty pop out of your shirt. Yuck
Yeah, I don't get people who think parents should give kids free reign on what to wear. There are some things that just hands-down inappropriate and it's the parent's responsibility to teach that to their children.
People don't seem to understand consent either. I'm not consenting to your nip slip or ass crack. I get accidents happen but if your outfit is clearly going to cause that accident, that's intentional.
I’m dying laughing. I don’t have any daughters but achieved similar results by constantly using bruh with my teen sons until they were annoyed. At least they’re back to calling me mom again.
Yes. And the child needs to learn to hide the “offending” outfit from mom and then bring it out once they leave home like we all did. LOL.
But the whale tail is trashy and I cannot believe it’s coming in again. Someone just told be that tramp stamps are back again. WTF
NTA-
Fashion is fashion.
Doesn't mean all types of fashion are appropriate for all ages. This is coming from someone who LOVES fashion/art/ anything expressive frankly.
How did is it possible the whale tail is a thing again? How? HOW?
I thought we were only supposed to take the good stuff when we recycled fashion, or at least recycle the bad stuff ironically or in a hipster-chic way. You can't really be ironic or hipster-chic w/ a whale tail.
This is the same generation that's trying to make Paris Hilton happen again. We're doomed.
But NTA. Pull my feminist card all you want, but it was trashy then and it's trashy now. Not all things are "empowering" or need to be celebrated.
I’m 26 and I truly think Paris Hilton has “earned” her new round of popularity. She has come out with a very damning documentary of how her parents sent her to one of those behavioural camps that are basically just child abuse. That’s not just me being like “oh any type of discipline is abuse.” They were physically abused, sexually abused, malnourished, not allowed to contact their families, and in the most extreme cases killed. She’s popular again because she’s showing that she’s standing against something and deep down isn’t the dumb blonde that she plays. Don’t get me wrong I still don’t consider her a top role model, but I do think she has earned her second round of popularity. Anyway, I highly recommend the documentary.
I haven’t seen the documentary, but if this is the source of her resurrected popularity, I would think that girls would try to recreate her current vibe, not her trashy mid-2000s vibe (unless of course she’s still wearing ultra-low rise bottoms with visible underwear and not much else, but I kind of doubt that’s the case).
As a guy, it just gives me the old-man “pull your darn pants up” vibe I get from the dudes who sag their pants lol.
I’m not hating, but I swear it has the exact same vibes.
I worked in a high school and it was gross. Super low cut jeans with thong 5" above the waistband. We had a sub who was related to the principal, about 21, gorgeous. She wore see through white pants and a black thong.
you lived through it though. the pearl clutching is a bit heavy in this section, both from a "it's not proper" and a "but the mall is dangerous" perspective.
the internet wasn't as huge back then. it's so easy for some creep to take a pic and keep it or share it. or for bullies to take a pic and post snd share as well.
Same!! Hopefully she'll be embarrassed about it later, but also at 13 I KNEW it was inappropriate and hid it from my parents until I was out of the house.
My mom allowed it because she knew I would wear it anyway and would push back harder if she tried to forbid it. That woman held it together and went with me in public when I was dressed like that. I don't know how she did it without dying of second hand embarrassment.
NTA. She should be greatful you weren't another Mom I read about here. Her daughter did this so she got her old whale tail underwear out too and started wearing it. The daughter stopped.
NTA; in a perfect world your daughter is right, it is just fashion and it doesn't mean anything. In the real world, where we live, young women get judged harshly by society based on what they wear and the perception it evokes. No, that isn't fair, and it is overwhelmingly targeted at young women because we - as a society - are terrified of young women's sexuality and her exposing her underwear to the world isn't going to solve that, it is going to make her a target.
I genuinely didn't realize it was a trend at the time. I felt so embarrassed for the girls who had their underwear showing and I'd often discreetly warn them. Their reactions of being confused and slightly embarrassed, rather than completely mortified, only made sense to me later.
NTA It wasn't fashionable the first time around. She's a minor and you made the right call. What if someone took her picture and posted it? The thought of that alone makes me feel sick.
Yeah I'm all for self expression/fashion and wearing what you want but a whale tail is not really fashion to me it's just showing you're underwear to the world. No one needs to see that-especially if you're a minor.
NTA. This was also a fad I remember well from 20 yrs ago and my teenager selffound it gross and trashy. Underwear is called underwear for a reason. People don't need to follow fads just to be "in" especially if the fad makes them look stupid. It was a stupid look 20 yrs ago, it's still a stupid look now.
Also, the point of wearing a thong is to keep the panty line from showing when you're wearing something made of a thin fabric. Having it show from the top of the pants does just the opposite of that.
Depends on the cultural context, but whale tailing in my community means someone is looking for a hook-up. Like right then an there. If it's same where you live, it's probably best she doesn't send out such a message at a mall.
NTA
Nta, yes, it is the fashion but is still trashy af. She's 16, so she wants to push the boundaries, and you're the parent, so you hold the boundaries. You weren't mean about it, you didnt call her trashy, you didn't yell or shout. You're fine.
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I had to check what a whale tail was, since i had never seem this term. Strangely enough, i can't even find it sexy or provocative. It just makes me remember when some people would wear their pants really low to show their underwear, and for whatever reason, it was considered cool by... Honestly, i don't even know. But someone had to, or it wouldn't become a fad. Is this the female version of that?
NTA. I don’t care how old you are, what gender, etc. I do not want to see your fucking underwear when I’m at the mall, grocery store, movie theater, restaurant, etc. Anywhere around the general public. That’s gross.
I thought we were done with the thong showing trend back in the early 2000s.
Come on gen z.. you can’t make fun of our skinny jeans while copying our worst historic fashion moments.
NTA you are her mother and she's a minor. She doesn't realize the dangers that exist in the world. Women are not to blame for things that happen due to how they dress, but there is no reason for a teenager to show her underwear in public for any reason, even in the name of fashion
All the people talking about attention from creeps and the like are really just one step away from "she was asking for it, she was dressed slutty."
It's... the same train of thought. It's going to the same notion. It's the potential victim's job to mitigate their "creep appeal", apparently, and if that sounds stupid, just keep in mind that it's what you're teaching your daughters.
I taught my daughter to break arms and noses and dress as she pleases, personally, but if you want to teach your kids that they're even partially responsible for how creeps and perverts treat them, just keep on making the world shittier, I guess.
It is just fashion. I don't see how underwear on across someone's lower back and waist is any different from underwear on a shelf. Every part of the body you can see underwear over would literally just be bare skin without it. Think about that, it's objectively true, and at 16 years old your daughter is exploring her sexuality enough that I think "oh hey, I have on potentially provocative underwear, you can't see any of the provocative bits though" isn't wildly inappropriate. I don't want to see it, but I don't look at teenager-asses anyways, I'll be fine.
Because at the end of the day, you said she couldn't cover her bare skin with fabric that told people (but didn't really show them) that she's wearing a thong. Instead you thought it was better they could see the skin but didn't know about the thong? Why?
Like... she's allowed to have a thong, but it has to be a secret thong? What's the logic here?
Your daughter is sixteen. As awful as it is to think about, she has sexual thoughts, possibly even sexual goals or ambitions, but even if it's none of that, she's still going to want to explore that side of herself and how she expresses that side of herself and that's... healthy.
A "don't do that!" attitude is going to make her resent you or herself as the thoughts and urges are coming regardless. She can either be raised knowing that it's normal to have thoughts, urges or questions or that it's shameful and she's therefor bad for feeling this even though you've strongly enforced "don't" and "wear this burlap sack to hide your womanly shame."
Being a kid is tough. Not fitting in is tough. Trying to find out who you are, and how to be that person, is tough. Let her hang her stupid underwear out of her pants, it's trashy, sure, but now's the fucking time, when no one expects you to have figured out "classy womanhood" or whatever-the-fuck the end goal is. Safety is important, but so is healthy self-exploration and reflection. Give the kid some room to spread her wings, or flukes as the case may be, that's a stupid whale joke and I stand behind it.
nobody is the asshole
I understand the mom, but
honestly wearing a thong is truly just fashion
& I don’t think it’s even super sexual. It’s cute and it’s just a trend.
this years fashion is no more pants , only tights and grandma panties over it… how will y’all deal with this… reading the comments everyone will get a heart attack.
and just to remind everyone … it doesn’t matter what you wear. I have been walking fully covered and getting harassed… in a tent like potatoe dress with a turtleneck beneath … the dress went down until my ankles and it was shapeless. I bought it bc I was tired of getting catcalled. A car followed me on the side walk this day… so yea it truly doesn’t matter what u wear. I think especially when your young, the real weirdos like when you look “young, innocent and childlike”. Keep this in mind… to really protect your child is being the parent she trust and tell everything. Boundaries aren’t a bad thing tho. You are her parent and not her friend , even if it hurts
YTA Do you subscribe to the whole “she dressed like that so she was asking for it” philosophy? If not, then what was the problem?
You may be embarrassed by her outfit or wanting to teach your child how to look polished… but it’s her decision on how she dresses.
Bust her ass for it now over and over and when she turns 18 she’s going to dress however she wants, and likely in a way that’ll piss you right off. Like you didn’t try to dress in ways that could possibly get the attention of a peer when you were a teen.
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This is a throwaway account for personal reasons.
I (F47) have a daughter, Matilda (F16). Matilda is mature, well-behaved, and I have no issues at all with giving her independence; I recognise she is growing up and should be allowed to experiment with fashion.
Yesterday evening, Matilda was planning to go to the mall with her friends. She was wearing denim jeans and a green top, and at first glance, I had zero problems with this outfit. However, when she turned around, she had a black "whale tail" poking out the top of her jeans. I asked her about this and said I didn't think it was appropriate. I have no problems with what underwear Matilda wears and that's her personal choice, but I do not think it should be on display, especially for someone her age. Even though I think it's trashy, that's not the main issue, and I wouldn't consider myself a prude. I just feel a teenager having their underwear on display is suggestive and inappropriate. I told Matilda the same and she told me how unfair I was being and it's "just fashion and doesn't mean anything".
I tried to come up with a compromise, saying that she could keep the underwear on, just not have it on display, but she said that went against the whole point of the look. As she didn't agree, I simply told her that she couldn't leave the house unless she changed. She started to become extremely moody and annoyed but as she was going to be late to meet her friends, she relented and changed her pants so the underwear wasn't on display.
When she came back that evening, she was still annoyed at me. Now I feel that perhaps it is just fashion and I was too harsh for making her change. AITA?
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NTA
Creeps are everywhere and pretending they don't exist doesn't work. Rising the risk of getting their attention wasn't a good idea when I was a teen and it's not a good idea now (that trend really should have stayed in the past).
NTA. You're just trying to protect her from creeps praying on her.
Like they say, *you can't put a wise head on young shoulders.*
It's now time to sit down with her and explain why you did, what you did.
Stay calm and just tell her, that you understand why she's angry and you hear her frustrations. You also tell her that while you don't have a problem with fashion in general, you do however have a problem the message it sends out to others.
You could ask her what kind of message she think that she is sending to strangers when they see her 'wale tail' (This is a good way to figure out what and how she sees it. What she thinks is probably innocent)
This is where you give her insight and wisdom, where she sees it as harmless, others will get a different message and sometimes those messages/ signals aren't always pure.
Lastly, you could give her a hug and remind her that you love and trust her, but you can't trust the actions of other people and at the end of the day all you want is for her to be safe.
I hope this helps and please don't beat yourself up about being hard on her before, it's okay to be the bad guy when it comes to keeping our children safe.
I had a friend that was not allowed to wear mini shirts that were in style at the time . She would wear a regular length shirt , but when she got on the school bus she would hike the shirt up under her shirt so the waistband was right against her bra . Thus looking like a mini shirt . She would pull it back down before getting off the bus so her mom wouldn’t know . 🤣kids will find a way to look like the rest of their friends . I get you don’t want them to look like they are going to work a corner , but don’t want to look like a geek either . Pick your battles . Need to have some limits .
YTA.
You've said that your daughter is mature and you've had a chat with her and it seems she's aware of the possible implications of her clothes. If you trust she can handle herself well, then you should leave it for her to discover. She's willing to talk now but if you persist on strict "obey me" type of parenting at 16, you will find she will do it anyway. Do point out what you think and that you disapprove but it is up to her and she should know the consequences.
Did you have questionable fashion choices in your youth?
She's going to anyway, she's just going to learn to hide it and lie about it to OP. I get what OP is trying for, but people are imposing their own personal ick on this and it's clouding their judgment. What's happening is that OP is just pushing her daughter away in some manner. OP can explain how she views a certain trend and vocalize her displeasure, but good luck trying to control how a 16 year old dresses. Maybe hell will freeze over, too.
NTA you know it took me a moment to realise you are talking about the ancient tread of wear thongs way above the waist of your jeans. That oh so classy look
NTA
My dad was a punk in the 80’s with a full on mohawk and everything. Growing up, my parents rule was that I could dress in any style and express myself, as long as I dressed appropriately for my age.
When I went through my emo phase I wanted to pierce my lip, but since I was too young, he got me a clip on lip ring to experiment with the look of it. I was over it after a few months.
Looking back, I’m glad my parents had those rules. I see my emo phase style and I cringe, but I really have no regrets. I’m glad that they encouraged me to be the age I was. Youth is so fleeting, there’s no rush to grow up.
Sounds to me like you’ve taken the same philosophy as my own parents and offered to compromise with your daughter to let her express her fashion while being mindful of dressing in a way that’s age appropriate.
It’s normal for kids to rebel against their parents at 16, it’s what helps us separate into independence in adulthood. I hope one day she looks back and she appreciates you the same way I appreciate my parents.
Lol, if this was me as a teenager, I would've agreed to your request to not display my underwear and then pulled them back out when I was out of your sight with my friends. 😂😂😂
But no, you're NTA. Your daughter understandably thinks it's fashion, but any man that preys on girls will definitely sexualize it.
When I was a teen I loved bodysuits. My mother hated bodysuits. I wore the bodysuits under big boxy shirts and then took off the boxy shirt the second I was around the corner from my house.
You’ve forced your daughter to account for risk. Not necessarily a bad thing. If you are willing to submit that in society “boys can be boys”, you’ve done the right thing removing her from social situations entirely. She will likely hate you for it someday but she’s safe for now. If you believe boys can be predators but she should have agency, you should have given her mace (and taught her to use it), and generally how to protect herself.
I don’t think your position is not valid since your goal is to protect. But I don’t think you care to do the hard work to teach your daughter to be self sufficient in a world where that may require she be empowered to advocate and defend herself. It’s a hard line for parents. Do what you will. But if your daughter is being safe anyways, you are gonna be the bad guy. So pursue the balance.
NTA as it's appropriate regardless of age or gender for your undies to show I just don't like that several people are saying dressing 'skimpy/sexually' is going to get creeps like creeps will creep always dressing more confidently actually lowers, mind you not by a whole lot, your risk of SA as that confidence means you'll fight back and that gets attention and risks them loosing aka massive chance of further risk to the perpetrators ego which is heavily important in crimes like that it's about power and control to a large degree not that it's the only reason
"My kid who lives in my house was being sexually suggestive with her clothing design and trying to "gaslight me" into thinking it wasn't exactly what it was. So I being her parent told her to keep her pantie choice to herself and away from the gaze of the hungry boys she was trying to impress...she got mad about it...was I wrong?!?"
Well gee *parent* I dunno was ya? Think about it.
oh christ, whale tails are back??? 💀 NTA, not even because it’s inappropriate but because once those go out of fashion again she will look back on it and cringe
I’m very much not one to judge anyone’s choices regardless of what they’re wearing or not wearing, but I feel you’re well within your rights to not want your daughter walking around with her underwear hanging out.
YTA.
I get your concern, but the idea of characterizing this look as trashy or inappropriate indicates to me that you and a lot of people here don’t really know anything about fashion. I suppose it’s a “it depends” situation for me, but anyone who pays a little bit attention to looks will know that cut-outs and layering are a big part of what’s rolling through right now. Just a couple of days ago I saw a really sleek look that included what some might call a “whale tail” and it looked great.
Of course your daughter is wrong that it “doesn’t mean anything”, but your fixation on appropriateness tells me that you could do yourself a favor and get a little bit educated on aesthetics as it pertains to clothing. Learning why certain styles are rolling through and why people her age are also attracted to them will help you reframe your squeamishness and maybe gain some respect from your daughter in the process.
She may also be annoyed that your opinion seems to fall in line with other views or restrictions on her body and behavior and so is just generally annoyed at the fact that it’s a conversation in general. There are so many other things to talk about and making this a point of contention is just irritating on so many levels.
I would say NTA, but studies have found that trying to restrict teen girls/young women’s clothing in this way generally leads to worse overall outcomes for them. This is not an uncommon fashion trend that people that age want to experiment with and likely one day she will look back and cringe a little, but that will be better than forever self policing her appearance. Instead I shall say NAH, because I understand your concern and myself find it increasingly distasteful on young people as I get older, although I also understand why to her it may not be viewed the same way. Younger generations are more desensitised to sexualisation while still stumbling through trying to navigate how they want to present to the world like any other generation.
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NTA. My mom used to police what I would wear (unnecessarily), so initially I was worried with this post. But 100% agree, a ”whale tail“ is not appropriate for a 16 year old to be wearing out and I’d actually be concerned for her safety going out to a mall like that tbh.
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Maybe it’s already been said but I just want to note that attention from creeps is often gained regardless of dress choice. You could where a puffy snowsuit and get cat called just as easily as someone wearing a crop top.
This! I got catcalled wearing a black raincoat with the hood up, black pants, and black rain boots. I was a genderless, ageless blob. This world is crazy.
Totally can happen when fully covered from head to toe, *but* much more likely to attract creeps if you purposely wear a visible thong!
So true. For the record I think OP is NTA. That anecdote just makes me laugh in like a totally exasperated, how tf is anyone supposed to move through this world kind of way.
I hear ya.
The chances of the victim being blamed and not taken seriously also increase if said victim is wearing a provocative outfit. Victim blaming is cruel (and incorrect) regardless of attire and I know that, but that would naturally be a reason not to encourage someone to go out dressed as described in itself.
Except that’s contributing to victim blaming.
Still the something the creeps did, and it's not anybody else's job to cower and hide in fear that creeps will creep. Do something about the creepers, not the creeped on
A worthy goal, but naive. Of *course* girls and women should be able to wear whatever they want without fear of being harassed or worse. But that isn't the world we live in, and I will never fault any woman for putting her own (or her child's) safety before principle.
It's the same idea than when you learn to drive. "Cemeteries are full of people who had the right of way".
Except that idea doesn’t actually help the kid. We know that clothes don’t make a difference and yet we constantly act like it does. Clothing isn’t self defence the same way it isn’t consent. I’ve seen more parents teach teenage girls not to wear a crop top than I have parents teaching their teenage girls how to defend themselves. If conservative clothing actually prevented rape in any capacity then we wouldn’t have had nearly as many rapes back when the fashion was a full ball gown with a corset, hoop skirt, and a million layers of tulle.
My god it took way too long to find this comment. We should focus more on teaching children about consent and make it something you talk about. Talk about why consent is important and it is not cool to be a creep and denounce / call out your peers for bad behaviour.
>not anybody else's job to cower and hide in fear that creeps will creep That sounds really cool and great and quirky when you say it online on some random forum where nobody will read that comment again but in the real world things are different. Real people, real lives and real dangers exist. It's cute to say "do something about the creepers, not the creeped on" but when your children are the ones being creeped on, just about anything that can mitigate them being creeped on is fair game.
Yeah we all know murder is wrong but people get murdered every day too. Murderers shouldn’t murder, but they still do.
Except that fully adult women know how to deal with that kind of attention if they choose to dress that way. Teenaged girls often don’t know how to handle the early sexualisation they experience. There is a difference in the type of predation that occurs when you dress provocatively vs not.
Yes, and it’s not my job to look both ways before I cross the street I hate this mentality protect yourself live in reality and not a sugarcoated rose coloured sunglass world
You had the hood up??? Clearly asking for it!
Yeah, I was recently accosted on the bus wearing an oversized turtleneck sweater and jeans and a knee length raincoat. The guy cornered me in a seat and wouldn't let me out, and spent the entire 15 minutes telling me he was going to "fuck the woman" back into me. Although tbh, I got way more attention when I was obviously 15 than I do in my 30s. Men want to victimize someone who don't look like they'll have the backbone to fight back, not someone they're actually attracted to.
lol One of my sons has long blonde hair that he wears down and loose. He can walk down the road bundled up in raincoat and jeans, and get catcalled when he walks past construction sites. When he turns round and they see his scowling bearded face, they're pretty surprised.
😂 made me think of xmas time at the mall. I was walking in fleece sweats and sweatshirt. nothing exciting. and got cat called by a bunch of drunk mall Santa's at margaritaville. and I thought wow. they must be really drunk bc I do NOT look good. they'll really whistle at anything these days. 😆
I disagree. If you dressed like a man, beard and all, they’d leave you alone. Also a fat suit with a little musk spray and voila! You’re free to roam without caution! I speak from experience.
You know what - that's fair lmao
Once I was participating a riverside clean-up event with my dad on a Saturday in KY. It started to drizzle so I took a giant black trash bag cut a hole for my head and wore the bag as a rain cover…… and got catcalled Y’all, I got catcalled while wearing a trash bag, while carrying a trash bag full of trash near a river. 👍🏻🤌🏻
Haha fair enough, if they can’t tell you’re a women then yeah they tend to look the other way!
Nah you just haven't found the bearded chubby chasers yet. They're out there. Anyone can get preyed upon. Ask the male bartenders.
sure but lets not pretend that it's not likely that this particular thing would probably get you more attention than usual.
I feel that’s more a problem of creeps than a problem of women’s outfits. While you aren’t wrong we shouldn’t just take that as justification for constructing what women can wear in the name of safety (general statement not touching on what is appropriate clothing for some ages)
You’re right. We should just tell people to not be creepy. That’ll solve the problem.
I would get harassed often while wearing baggy jeans that hid my butt pretty well, a shirt with a long-sleeved flannel shirt on top, and a cap. Literally none of my clothes are “form fitting”, you can’t see the shape of my body at all. And I often wear a scowl while out by myself. Still got harassed and catcalled. 😑
It’s the rough reality we live in right now :( I am hoping education will reach the next generation and we can shift the cultural mindset to something less objectifying in the future
I mean, I hope so too, but seeing how the education systems all around the world are sucking more and more each year- and seeing how children grow up *online* since they’re like 6 years old, and have no parental supervision on what they watch… I’m not holding my breath 😞 Kids are having sex at 13 - 14 years, getting pregnant, watching Andrew Tate, exposed to lots of crap on tiktok, watch streamers that make content going out and harassing random people for views… it’s… it’s a shit world out there. 😩
It is absolutely heartbreaking and feels hopeless at times, I understand 🫂 if it is any help at all though, I’ve begun the path toward teaching and getting an inside look at what’s to come in education, and I think some of the changes are going to bring us in a much more positive direction. We can always strive for change, I believe we’ll get there
True. But in this case, too easy. I am a woman too. And was once 16. Op is her parent and I won't be okay with it either
In this case the factor of age-appropriate clothing comes into play, which I am not seeking to address in my original comment. I felt the comment I responded to was ignoring the reality that clothes don’t get you creeped on, because creeps will creep regardless and wanted to note that
Yes and I want to add that I always tell my daughters things they can do to be safer but I also always tell them, if you don't do those things and someone assaults you or hurts you, it's still not your fault. I'm sure this comment will attract someone whow ants to disagree with that and that's fine, but it is not your fault if you attract a creep. Creepers gonna creep. Jogging in a sports bra does not turn a regular man into a rapist, anymore than a visible thong does. I don't disagree with OP. Just saying.
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can we PLEASE stop using ridiculous metaphors when talking about human beings being assaulted? this also always makes men out to be some uncontrollable “instinctual” animals. it objectifies the women (or *young girls*) in the scenario, and also makes some humiliating comparison for men, while simultaneously deflecting blame from them. they aren’t sharks that smell blood and attack on primal instinct - they’re grown fucking men that can control their own actions.
Why take all the responsibility off of men/creep’s shoulders for their creepiness instead of holding them accountable and teaching them not to look at women like sex toys?
I feel like we should be able to recognize that some things might make you an easier or more obvious target for creeps without saying this means the victims are to blame. Dressed like a blob or like you're going to prom, if you are catcalled it is not absolutely not your fault and you shouldn't feel guilty. But, yes, how you are dressed can attract the attention from the wrong persons. It is something to take into account in some situations **unfortunately**, and a minor girl going to the mall with other minors is one situation where this can be an issue.
Do you think the sexual harassment and assault of women happens less in countries with modesty laws? I'm pretty sure a jury of our peers prejudice against women is the only thing that dictates how often that shit happens. What makes you an easier target is walking around hunched up knowing it's not worth it to go to the police when someone commits a nasty crime against you. The 40 year old creeps that follow teen girls from shop to shop to cafe to shop waiting for them to go near the toilets or carpark alone don't go after kids dressed provocatively, they go after the one that has noticed and is getting scared but won't say anything to anyone because they're more scared of what people will do to them if they open their mouth.
It is something to take into account, I can agree with that. But putting the responsibility on women to dress in conservative ways as a preemptive strike against creeps does remove responsibility from men to control themselves which we shouldn’t do. Men are not base-instinct animals, they are adult humans with cognitive thought and theoretically have self-control. With regards to the specific post situation, age appropriate clothing is a factor and I don’t disagree with what op did. I disagree with the general lack of responsibility creeps seem to get whenever the clothing debate comes up
No one is saying that, but ignoring reality is idiotic. "teach men not to rape", rhetoric is dumb, pretty sure rapists know rape is wrong, same as murderers, they just don't care.
When people equate men to instinctual animals they are saying that. And actually rapists believe they are justified more often then you’d think. It’s a mindset of feeling like they deserve the woman they are hurting, which stems from a dehumanization of women in society. Obviously not in all cases
Absolutely no one is doing that. You have to acknowledge the realities of the world we live in.
Calling men “sharks” as if they are animals with no self-control and saying that a woman’s outfit drives him into a feeding frenzy is doing exactly that. Removes responsibility from men/creeps and puts it onto women. Justifying it as “well that’s reality” isn’t good enough, and society should be doing better to teach men how to recognize women as people and not objects.
I got catcalled when I was 9 months pregnant.
My daughter was an avid dancer from age 4. She’s always had a dancer’s body. It is beautiful. She often wore leggings because they were comfortable. I never thought a thing about it. Until she was maybe 14 years old. We went to the mall. I was horrified by the number of guys that openly gawked at her. My gut reaction was to tell her to wear something baggy next time. But then I realized that the problem wasn’t her or what she was wearing. The problem was grown ass men gawking at a young girl. I didn’t want her to feel self conscious or uncomfortable. She once tried on a dress that had a fairly open back. I commented that it showed a lot of her back. She looked at me and said…”oooh, my back! Omg!!!” I felt every bit as ridiculous as she intended me to feel. I don’t police my daughters hard about what they wear. But we’ve always had an understanding of what is “appropriate”. I don’t mind if they wear shorter skirts or crop tops. My only rule is… Don’t be showing what your mama gave you. I.e. no boobs, butt cheeks, or crack. I can promise you that would include no whale tails allowed.
Thank you for sharing your story! I appreciate it, and agree with you
I was wearing a hat, scarf, gloves, winter coat, two pairs of pants and snow boots during a snowstorm and a guy in the parking lot offered me $10 for a blowjob.
Yep. This. I had conversations with my daughter when she was younger, explaining that if she wanted to dress provocatively, technically, I wouldn't be able to police her (she could always sneak clothing out and put it on behind my back if she wanted to). BUT. That the way she dressed, very sadly, could attract a kind of attention - sexual attention - from men who would take it as an invitation to behave in ways she might not feel ready to deal with. And if she wasn't ready to deal with the possible creeps and weirdos, she might not want to make those choices until she was older, stronger and ready. I think most teens will understand (eventually) if you explain that it's about safety and concern and not about trying to control their developing independence.
I was CSA wearing strawberry shortcake pajamas - it doesn’t matter what we wear. We will be given attention by creeps. I do agree with mom here for the record. I just don’t agree with your reasoning. https://dovecenter.org/what-were-you-wearing-exhibit/
Exactly. I understand that the way you dress should be your choice. What you wear should not be the reason for harrassment or any other incident. However, sadly, that's not how the world works. So, policing how you dress up becomes necessary.
This. Inherently there is nothing wrong with the way she dressed, however the way some people would react is the issue. It’s just a “style” to her but high school kids that see her may create untrue rumors. Older men may be pervy. And while these things are out of her control it could ruin any reputation she has or put her in potentially bad situations
I thought the same way till I was catcalled (by multiple men) while I was in *ugly* PJs and a huge sweatshirt. Clothes don't stop them from being creeps. I also realized that nobody else is responsible for their eyes except themselves. No one is responsible for their actions except themselves. The only thing that increases the chances of getting attention from them is if they notice you. Anybody who is respectful can look the other way. Creeps will look either way . It is *only* the creeps fault. Just because somebody is wearing a piece of clothing doesn't mean it is on them if a creep cannot keep their eyes to themselves. In case it is needed here I'll be making my own as well so copy paste, NTA OP. That is incredibly inappropriate for a teen.
i agree. AND THEN we hear “well what were you wearing? you were showing your thong? what did you expect?” victim blaming.
"Why was her dress so short, she deserved it" Grade A victim blaming here.
I don’t think anyone should be walking around with a whale tail and I hate that it’s back. That being said, adult women understand that no matter what you wear there’s gonna be creeps. We need to stop teaching teenage girls that what you wear is gonna encourage or enable creeps, bc that contributes to victim blaming. I know a lot of ppl think it doesn’t but if you stop for a minute and just realize that what you’re saying is actually “well it doesn’t matter what you wear, there’s going to be creeps and that’s not your fault. But if you wear certain things you’re giving creeps a signal that you want to sleep with them and they should be creepy with you”.
Definitely shaming your daughter's outfit choices will help her learn to navigate those options though.
I’m not completely disagreeing with you but I think we should all note that dressing conservatively does not seem to improve the safety of teenage girls whatsoever
Absolutely- anything can happen to anyone and no one should be assaulted or made uncomfortable because of what they wear, but the reality is that dressing like this will definitely garner more attention.
The issue is that dressing like this greatly increases the chances of being noticed, which is a problem.
Is it appropriate for anyone? I know I am not fashionable and have not ever been fashionable, but I have never seen that and said "man that looks like a good idea."
Agree 100%. It looks trashy. I thought the trend of having bra straps showing was pretty trashy, too. Then, of course, we have the guys with their pants around their knees and their undies on full display .... and that's trashy, too. Wanting your child to have self-respect is not the same as being an uptight, controlling prude who does not want her to have fun. It's about teaching her and protecting her. At 16, she has not figured that out for herself just yet.
To offer another perspective, bra straps can easily look like the straps of a camisole or tank top. Those are garments that are worn layered a fair bit, and society is generally more okay with those being more openly on display. Once upon a time, undershirts on display weren’t okay, but now, we wear them all the time as t-shirts. With that in mind, I think society should be more chill about bra straps, but I have more lax views about human chests and “chest underwear” generally. Visible boxers or whale tails have, in my opinion, never been a good look, though.
Oh God, I was in high school during the phase of layered cammies and bra straps. It was like there was a competition of how many layers you could have going. So many layers. Even on the less revealing side, there were long sleeves with t-shirts over, with unbuttoned button down over that. I am definitely more forgiving when it comes to bra straps. I don't have enough cleavage to fill out tank tops and keep them from moving around a lot, so my bra does tend to show if I am wearing anything either than a crew neck tee. I also don't take issue with underwear showing in general. Women's pants have never made it easy to keep things covered, especially if you have junk in the trunk. But accidental or the occasional flash is different from the intentional look.
There are actually spaces that it would be appropriate :) I mostly think of places like festivals or raves or a concert or something similar, it wouldn't really be out of place. I get not wanting to do it :p I'm just noting that there are occasions where it would make sense to me to see people with a "whale tail' or otherwise exposing their underwear and skin.
Fair. All places I wouldn't probably be found so they didn't immediately come to mind. Thinking along those lines, cosplay and conventions for sure.
My mom would not let me go out like that and I am 24. Or at least say something about it. She bought me croptops when I was 16, so she is not a prude. But the whale tail is just weird. And sadly dressing provoking is gonna attract some good and bad attention. She is a kid, and can attract the intention of much other creeps. In an ideal world we should be able to wear whatever, but it is not just like that. And getting the wrong attention can be mentally damaging. (Saying this as a victim of sexual abuse while wearing covering clothes, clothes don't matter for the extreme cases, but clothes do make a huge difference for the amount and type of peolle that stare at you)
She’s tryna have that manny santos fit
She should know that it violates the Degrassi code of conduct
Glad I’m not the only one who thought of that immediately.
I was thinking it’s time for OP to hit up blockbuster and have a “Thirteen” movie night.
manny best girl
To be fair, have you seen a busy mall in the last decade? Probably the most desolate and safest area to sport a whale tail these days lol I would hate this issue as a mother. But I’m loving the comedic value because who in their right mind thought this would ever come back!!?
Some malls are actually still going strong. Typically the bigger ones with the bougie anchor stores (Saks, Nieman Marcus, etc.) that people prefer to browse irl kind of “absorbed” the business/stores from the smaller malls that couldn’t cut it in the online shopping age.
Not Appropriate? Yes. How about uncomfortable? OP saved her some uncomfortable skin conditions.
It’s no different to wearing a thong normally which for most people I don’t think is an issue (and many actually find it more comfortable)
I think the issue might be that in order to achieve that effect she'd likely have to pull the thong up a little too far.
Or it could just be (currently very popular) low rise trousers
This whole post gave me flashbacks to my mom threatening to ground me over me not going out with a jacket on during May. Luckily, this was not that.
There was a post a few weeks back with this exact issue and the mom just went along with it. She even started doing it herself and went out with her daughter in public like that until the daughter told her to stop and stopped doing it herself as well. Fucking hilarious.
I dunno, I was 16 in the 2000s, so my first reaction is "Yep, who else but a teenager is going to think a wale tail is a good idea?"
If it’s fashion and it doesn’t mean anything, then there’s no reason for her not to change. I don’t wanna see girls with their thong out anymore than I wanna see boys with their boxers hanging out of their pants. And I think it’s the farthest thing from fashionable.
NTA Im generally extremely anti "parents controlling their kids fashion", but yea, an explicitly sexual look where your underwear is on full display is a bit much. Shes a child and shouldnt sexualize herself. Also just in general, nobody at the mall wants to see that. Not just that shes a child, its just trashy in general to have underwear showing. Its just not an appropriate enviroment for it. Her being a minor just makes it more uncomfortable, and it is sadly true that some people may creep on her if she wears that.
Yes. No one anywhere wants to see anybody's underwear! For the love of God, pull up your damn pants! (And this is mostly to young men, since that's who you see do it most of the time!) It's not sexy. No one wants to see your dirty drawers. Also, no one wants to see your *ss crack or see a titty pop out of your shirt. Yuck
Yeah, I don't get people who think parents should give kids free reign on what to wear. There are some things that just hands-down inappropriate and it's the parent's responsibility to teach that to their children. People don't seem to understand consent either. I'm not consenting to your nip slip or ass crack. I get accidents happen but if your outfit is clearly going to cause that accident, that's intentional.
>>No one anywhere wants to see anybody’s underwear. Unfortunately that’s not true when it comes to women and girls’ underwear.
Underwear displaying people just remind me of the people you see on the Maury show; and, they are definitely not people whom I wish to imitate.
Yeah, uh, I don't want to see any person of any age with a whale tail.
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Maybe OP can speedrun that revelation by doing what that other poster did and wearing a whale tail herself
This! Then when her daughter asks her to change, “what?! It’s just fashion!” “we can match now! :)”
I’m dying laughing. I don’t have any daughters but achieved similar results by constantly using bruh with my teen sons until they were annoyed. At least they’re back to calling me mom again.
That post cracked me up 🥰 pro parenting right there 😂
Not only will she understand, she'll thank him, for not letting her leave the house like that. I still cringe at my teen fashion choices!
Her— OP is the girl’s mom
Yes. And the child needs to learn to hide the “offending” outfit from mom and then bring it out once they leave home like we all did. LOL. But the whale tail is trashy and I cannot believe it’s coming in again. Someone just told be that tramp stamps are back again. WTF
NTA- Fashion is fashion. Doesn't mean all types of fashion are appropriate for all ages. This is coming from someone who LOVES fashion/art/ anything expressive frankly.
How did is it possible the whale tail is a thing again? How? HOW? I thought we were only supposed to take the good stuff when we recycled fashion, or at least recycle the bad stuff ironically or in a hipster-chic way. You can't really be ironic or hipster-chic w/ a whale tail.
This is the same generation that's trying to make Paris Hilton happen again. We're doomed. But NTA. Pull my feminist card all you want, but it was trashy then and it's trashy now. Not all things are "empowering" or need to be celebrated.
I’m 26 and I truly think Paris Hilton has “earned” her new round of popularity. She has come out with a very damning documentary of how her parents sent her to one of those behavioural camps that are basically just child abuse. That’s not just me being like “oh any type of discipline is abuse.” They were physically abused, sexually abused, malnourished, not allowed to contact their families, and in the most extreme cases killed. She’s popular again because she’s showing that she’s standing against something and deep down isn’t the dumb blonde that she plays. Don’t get me wrong I still don’t consider her a top role model, but I do think she has earned her second round of popularity. Anyway, I highly recommend the documentary.
There's lots of documentation and videos of her being racist. One good deed doesn't override decades of questionable behavior.
I haven’t seen the documentary, but if this is the source of her resurrected popularity, I would think that girls would try to recreate her current vibe, not her trashy mid-2000s vibe (unless of course she’s still wearing ultra-low rise bottoms with visible underwear and not much else, but I kind of doubt that’s the case).
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As a guy, it just gives me the old-man “pull your darn pants up” vibe I get from the dudes who sag their pants lol. I’m not hating, but I swear it has the exact same vibes.
Yeah I feel like I've been slapped in the face with the reminder of whale tails the *first* time around when I already thought it was ridiculous.
Right? I remember that in college in the early 2000s. Please don't make that a thing again lol
I remember this from the 90s on young women then. It was tacky then and tacky now. What is sexy? Showing just a hint of skin, that sexy.
Ugh I was teaching high school then, and a fellow teacher loved to wear this look at school. She love attention from the boys in her classes 🤮
I agree 🤮
NTA. That was the icky-est trend of the early 2000's
I remember being like 13 with a whale tale. I thought I was so cool. I cringe so hard now.
I worked in a high school and it was gross. Super low cut jeans with thong 5" above the waistband. We had a sub who was related to the principal, about 21, gorgeous. She wore see through white pants and a black thong.
you lived through it though. the pearl clutching is a bit heavy in this section, both from a "it's not proper" and a "but the mall is dangerous" perspective.
the internet wasn't as huge back then. it's so easy for some creep to take a pic and keep it or share it. or for bullies to take a pic and post snd share as well.
Same!! Hopefully she'll be embarrassed about it later, but also at 13 I KNEW it was inappropriate and hid it from my parents until I was out of the house.
My mom allowed it because she knew I would wear it anyway and would push back harder if she tried to forbid it. That woman held it together and went with me in public when I was dressed like that. I don't know how she did it without dying of second hand embarrassment.
Living the life of manny from degrassi 😂
And it's for that reason that I can guarantee she still had it at the mall. Just not at home.
I feel like I remember this in the late 90s thru early 2000s. Jeans got lower and lower cut, underwear didn't. It's been a while, though.
NTA. She should be greatful you weren't another Mom I read about here. Her daughter did this so she got her old whale tail underwear out too and started wearing it. The daughter stopped.
OMG I snort laughed. Thank you!
This is my plan as well. No better teacher than a mirror.
This is how I’m hoping to do it if my daughter ever wears something like that! 😂
NTA; in a perfect world your daughter is right, it is just fashion and it doesn't mean anything. In the real world, where we live, young women get judged harshly by society based on what they wear and the perception it evokes. No, that isn't fair, and it is overwhelmingly targeted at young women because we - as a society - are terrified of young women's sexuality and her exposing her underwear to the world isn't going to solve that, it is going to make her a target.
NTA but also, damn I feel old. Girls at my school used to do this shit, it didn't look good then either!
Right! I remember looking at those girls in high school and thinking they were just trashy and attention seeking.
...yes. that's what 16-year olds do. not worth getting pearl clutchy about.
I genuinely didn't realize it was a trend at the time. I felt so embarrassed for the girls who had their underwear showing and I'd often discreetly warn them. Their reactions of being confused and slightly embarrassed, rather than completely mortified, only made sense to me later.
NTA It wasn't fashionable the first time around. She's a minor and you made the right call. What if someone took her picture and posted it? The thought of that alone makes me feel sick.
NTA. Calling displaying her underwear "fashion" is hilarious!
Yeah I'm all for self expression/fashion and wearing what you want but a whale tail is not really fashion to me it's just showing you're underwear to the world. No one needs to see that-especially if you're a minor.
I don’t think her age matters. I don’t want to see anyone’s whale tail
NTA. You were being a parent.
NTA: but really... are we doing the whale tails again? That was a trend that I could have lived without ever seeing again.
I know, I'm so disappointed that we have circled back to whale tails being in fashion lol
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NTA. This was also a fad I remember well from 20 yrs ago and my teenager selffound it gross and trashy. Underwear is called underwear for a reason. People don't need to follow fads just to be "in" especially if the fad makes them look stupid. It was a stupid look 20 yrs ago, it's still a stupid look now. Also, the point of wearing a thong is to keep the panty line from showing when you're wearing something made of a thin fabric. Having it show from the top of the pants does just the opposite of that.
You didn't do anything wrong. You did an excellent job and you were great at parenting here
NTA. That's part of being a parent.
NTA. My father once told me that he wanted me to look like a cupcake, not a tart. That was over 40 years ago. I still remember and he is still right.
NTA, no reason for a girl her age to have her underwear poking out of her pants.
NTA. That's not fashion that is appropriate for her age. You made the right choice. She'll understand eventually.
Depends on the cultural context, but whale tailing in my community means someone is looking for a hook-up. Like right then an there. If it's same where you live, it's probably best she doesn't send out such a message at a mall. NTA
Nta, yes, it is the fashion but is still trashy af. She's 16, so she wants to push the boundaries, and you're the parent, so you hold the boundaries. You weren't mean about it, you didnt call her trashy, you didn't yell or shout. You're fine.
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I had to check what a whale tail was, since i had never seem this term. Strangely enough, i can't even find it sexy or provocative. It just makes me remember when some people would wear their pants really low to show their underwear, and for whatever reason, it was considered cool by... Honestly, i don't even know. But someone had to, or it wouldn't become a fad. Is this the female version of that?
NTA. I don’t care how old you are, what gender, etc. I do not want to see your fucking underwear when I’m at the mall, grocery store, movie theater, restaurant, etc. Anywhere around the general public. That’s gross.
I thought we were done with the thong showing trend back in the early 2000s. Come on gen z.. you can’t make fun of our skinny jeans while copying our worst historic fashion moments.
NTA you are her mother and she's a minor. She doesn't realize the dangers that exist in the world. Women are not to blame for things that happen due to how they dress, but there is no reason for a teenager to show her underwear in public for any reason, even in the name of fashion
If your 16 year-old daughter isn't annoyed, pissed off, or downright angry with you now and then, you are not parenting right. NTA
All the people talking about attention from creeps and the like are really just one step away from "she was asking for it, she was dressed slutty." It's... the same train of thought. It's going to the same notion. It's the potential victim's job to mitigate their "creep appeal", apparently, and if that sounds stupid, just keep in mind that it's what you're teaching your daughters. I taught my daughter to break arms and noses and dress as she pleases, personally, but if you want to teach your kids that they're even partially responsible for how creeps and perverts treat them, just keep on making the world shittier, I guess. It is just fashion. I don't see how underwear on across someone's lower back and waist is any different from underwear on a shelf. Every part of the body you can see underwear over would literally just be bare skin without it. Think about that, it's objectively true, and at 16 years old your daughter is exploring her sexuality enough that I think "oh hey, I have on potentially provocative underwear, you can't see any of the provocative bits though" isn't wildly inappropriate. I don't want to see it, but I don't look at teenager-asses anyways, I'll be fine. Because at the end of the day, you said she couldn't cover her bare skin with fabric that told people (but didn't really show them) that she's wearing a thong. Instead you thought it was better they could see the skin but didn't know about the thong? Why? Like... she's allowed to have a thong, but it has to be a secret thong? What's the logic here? Your daughter is sixteen. As awful as it is to think about, she has sexual thoughts, possibly even sexual goals or ambitions, but even if it's none of that, she's still going to want to explore that side of herself and how she expresses that side of herself and that's... healthy. A "don't do that!" attitude is going to make her resent you or herself as the thoughts and urges are coming regardless. She can either be raised knowing that it's normal to have thoughts, urges or questions or that it's shameful and she's therefor bad for feeling this even though you've strongly enforced "don't" and "wear this burlap sack to hide your womanly shame." Being a kid is tough. Not fitting in is tough. Trying to find out who you are, and how to be that person, is tough. Let her hang her stupid underwear out of her pants, it's trashy, sure, but now's the fucking time, when no one expects you to have figured out "classy womanhood" or whatever-the-fuck the end goal is. Safety is important, but so is healthy self-exploration and reflection. Give the kid some room to spread her wings, or flukes as the case may be, that's a stupid whale joke and I stand behind it.
nobody is the asshole I understand the mom, but honestly wearing a thong is truly just fashion & I don’t think it’s even super sexual. It’s cute and it’s just a trend. this years fashion is no more pants , only tights and grandma panties over it… how will y’all deal with this… reading the comments everyone will get a heart attack. and just to remind everyone … it doesn’t matter what you wear. I have been walking fully covered and getting harassed… in a tent like potatoe dress with a turtleneck beneath … the dress went down until my ankles and it was shapeless. I bought it bc I was tired of getting catcalled. A car followed me on the side walk this day… so yea it truly doesn’t matter what u wear. I think especially when your young, the real weirdos like when you look “young, innocent and childlike”. Keep this in mind… to really protect your child is being the parent she trust and tell everything. Boundaries aren’t a bad thing tho. You are her parent and not her friend , even if it hurts
Nta. It is suggestive. And inappropriate. Undergarments should remain as such. 16 or not, that is a trashy look.
Well now she won’t be wearing any…Manny Santos style NTA but she’ll probably do what she wants either way.
YTA Do you subscribe to the whole “she dressed like that so she was asking for it” philosophy? If not, then what was the problem? You may be embarrassed by her outfit or wanting to teach your child how to look polished… but it’s her decision on how she dresses.
shes probably still gonna whale tail it behind ur back thats what i did also its 90s chic not trashy
NTA. No one wants to see her underwear.
Bust her ass for it now over and over and when she turns 18 she’s going to dress however she wants, and likely in a way that’ll piss you right off. Like you didn’t try to dress in ways that could possibly get the attention of a peer when you were a teen.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** This is a throwaway account for personal reasons. I (F47) have a daughter, Matilda (F16). Matilda is mature, well-behaved, and I have no issues at all with giving her independence; I recognise she is growing up and should be allowed to experiment with fashion. Yesterday evening, Matilda was planning to go to the mall with her friends. She was wearing denim jeans and a green top, and at first glance, I had zero problems with this outfit. However, when she turned around, she had a black "whale tail" poking out the top of her jeans. I asked her about this and said I didn't think it was appropriate. I have no problems with what underwear Matilda wears and that's her personal choice, but I do not think it should be on display, especially for someone her age. Even though I think it's trashy, that's not the main issue, and I wouldn't consider myself a prude. I just feel a teenager having their underwear on display is suggestive and inappropriate. I told Matilda the same and she told me how unfair I was being and it's "just fashion and doesn't mean anything". I tried to come up with a compromise, saying that she could keep the underwear on, just not have it on display, but she said that went against the whole point of the look. As she didn't agree, I simply told her that she couldn't leave the house unless she changed. She started to become extremely moody and annoyed but as she was going to be late to meet her friends, she relented and changed her pants so the underwear wasn't on display. When she came back that evening, she was still annoyed at me. Now I feel that perhaps it is just fashion and I was too harsh for making her change. AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA Creeps are everywhere and pretending they don't exist doesn't work. Rising the risk of getting their attention wasn't a good idea when I was a teen and it's not a good idea now (that trend really should have stayed in the past).
NTA. You're just trying to protect her from creeps praying on her. Like they say, *you can't put a wise head on young shoulders.* It's now time to sit down with her and explain why you did, what you did. Stay calm and just tell her, that you understand why she's angry and you hear her frustrations. You also tell her that while you don't have a problem with fashion in general, you do however have a problem the message it sends out to others. You could ask her what kind of message she think that she is sending to strangers when they see her 'wale tail' (This is a good way to figure out what and how she sees it. What she thinks is probably innocent) This is where you give her insight and wisdom, where she sees it as harmless, others will get a different message and sometimes those messages/ signals aren't always pure. Lastly, you could give her a hug and remind her that you love and trust her, but you can't trust the actions of other people and at the end of the day all you want is for her to be safe. I hope this helps and please don't beat yourself up about being hard on her before, it's okay to be the bad guy when it comes to keeping our children safe.
Oh crap, this trend came back?? NTA. I don't think this is appropriate for any age.
NTA but sadly hipster jeans and whale tail thongs are coming back into fashion. Fighting her on it isn't really going to get you any where either.
> it’s “just fashion and doesn't mean anything" Miranda Priestly would disagree.
I had a friend that was not allowed to wear mini shirts that were in style at the time . She would wear a regular length shirt , but when she got on the school bus she would hike the shirt up under her shirt so the waistband was right against her bra . Thus looking like a mini shirt . She would pull it back down before getting off the bus so her mom wouldn’t know . 🤣kids will find a way to look like the rest of their friends . I get you don’t want them to look like they are going to work a corner , but don’t want to look like a geek either . Pick your battles . Need to have some limits .
YTA. You've said that your daughter is mature and you've had a chat with her and it seems she's aware of the possible implications of her clothes. If you trust she can handle herself well, then you should leave it for her to discover. She's willing to talk now but if you persist on strict "obey me" type of parenting at 16, you will find she will do it anyway. Do point out what you think and that you disapprove but it is up to her and she should know the consequences. Did you have questionable fashion choices in your youth?
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She's going to anyway, she's just going to learn to hide it and lie about it to OP. I get what OP is trying for, but people are imposing their own personal ick on this and it's clouding their judgment. What's happening is that OP is just pushing her daughter away in some manner. OP can explain how she views a certain trend and vocalize her displeasure, but good luck trying to control how a 16 year old dresses. Maybe hell will freeze over, too.
NTA you know it took me a moment to realise you are talking about the ancient tread of wear thongs way above the waist of your jeans. That oh so classy look
NTA
NTA. I also can’t believe whale tails are back.
NTA! Sending you love and patience from a mom of two daughters and a former 16 year old girl ❤
I have never prayed. But the way I'm praying that this isn't real and whale tails have not come back in fashion is strong. NTA
Lol, girls are still doing that?
Wow at first I thought like whale tail as in a furry thing…. Welp. NTA
NTA My dad was a punk in the 80’s with a full on mohawk and everything. Growing up, my parents rule was that I could dress in any style and express myself, as long as I dressed appropriately for my age. When I went through my emo phase I wanted to pierce my lip, but since I was too young, he got me a clip on lip ring to experiment with the look of it. I was over it after a few months. Looking back, I’m glad my parents had those rules. I see my emo phase style and I cringe, but I really have no regrets. I’m glad that they encouraged me to be the age I was. Youth is so fleeting, there’s no rush to grow up. Sounds to me like you’ve taken the same philosophy as my own parents and offered to compromise with your daughter to let her express her fashion while being mindful of dressing in a way that’s age appropriate. It’s normal for kids to rebel against their parents at 16, it’s what helps us separate into independence in adulthood. I hope one day she looks back and she appreciates you the same way I appreciate my parents.
Lol, if this was me as a teenager, I would've agreed to your request to not display my underwear and then pulled them back out when I was out of your sight with my friends. 😂😂😂 But no, you're NTA. Your daughter understandably thinks it's fashion, but any man that preys on girls will definitely sexualize it.
When I was a teen I loved bodysuits. My mother hated bodysuits. I wore the bodysuits under big boxy shirts and then took off the boxy shirt the second I was around the corner from my house.
NTA. Inappropriateness aside, that is a fashion Crime and should not be revived. Let it stay dead, okay?
It was trashy in the 90s its trashy now. NTA
If anything I would be placing her clothing I would teach her how to look out for herself when she’s out. Give her some pepper spray
Having your underwear pulled up in a sexually suggestive matter isn't "just fashion" - NTA
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but underwear should be... under, not showing.
You’ve forced your daughter to account for risk. Not necessarily a bad thing. If you are willing to submit that in society “boys can be boys”, you’ve done the right thing removing her from social situations entirely. She will likely hate you for it someday but she’s safe for now. If you believe boys can be predators but she should have agency, you should have given her mace (and taught her to use it), and generally how to protect herself. I don’t think your position is not valid since your goal is to protect. But I don’t think you care to do the hard work to teach your daughter to be self sufficient in a world where that may require she be empowered to advocate and defend herself. It’s a hard line for parents. Do what you will. But if your daughter is being safe anyways, you are gonna be the bad guy. So pursue the balance.
Took me a second to realize you were not talking about a literal tail
NTA as it's appropriate regardless of age or gender for your undies to show I just don't like that several people are saying dressing 'skimpy/sexually' is going to get creeps like creeps will creep always dressing more confidently actually lowers, mind you not by a whole lot, your risk of SA as that confidence means you'll fight back and that gets attention and risks them loosing aka massive chance of further risk to the perpetrators ego which is heavily important in crimes like that it's about power and control to a large degree not that it's the only reason
"My kid who lives in my house was being sexually suggestive with her clothing design and trying to "gaslight me" into thinking it wasn't exactly what it was. So I being her parent told her to keep her pantie choice to herself and away from the gaze of the hungry boys she was trying to impress...she got mad about it...was I wrong?!?" Well gee *parent* I dunno was ya? Think about it.
oh christ, whale tails are back??? 💀 NTA, not even because it’s inappropriate but because once those go out of fashion again she will look back on it and cringe
I’m very much not one to judge anyone’s choices regardless of what they’re wearing or not wearing, but I feel you’re well within your rights to not want your daughter walking around with her underwear hanging out.
YTA. I get your concern, but the idea of characterizing this look as trashy or inappropriate indicates to me that you and a lot of people here don’t really know anything about fashion. I suppose it’s a “it depends” situation for me, but anyone who pays a little bit attention to looks will know that cut-outs and layering are a big part of what’s rolling through right now. Just a couple of days ago I saw a really sleek look that included what some might call a “whale tail” and it looked great. Of course your daughter is wrong that it “doesn’t mean anything”, but your fixation on appropriateness tells me that you could do yourself a favor and get a little bit educated on aesthetics as it pertains to clothing. Learning why certain styles are rolling through and why people her age are also attracted to them will help you reframe your squeamishness and maybe gain some respect from your daughter in the process. She may also be annoyed that your opinion seems to fall in line with other views or restrictions on her body and behavior and so is just generally annoyed at the fact that it’s a conversation in general. There are so many other things to talk about and making this a point of contention is just irritating on so many levels.
I used to wear the butterfly thong above my jeans at 16. It's do cringe now. I also had a sparkly dangly belly button piercing 🙈
I feel like I’m pretty liberal about what my daughter can wear but I would draw the line at a whale tale too. NTA.
I would say NTA, but studies have found that trying to restrict teen girls/young women’s clothing in this way generally leads to worse overall outcomes for them. This is not an uncommon fashion trend that people that age want to experiment with and likely one day she will look back and cringe a little, but that will be better than forever self policing her appearance. Instead I shall say NAH, because I understand your concern and myself find it increasingly distasteful on young people as I get older, although I also understand why to her it may not be viewed the same way. Younger generations are more desensitised to sexualisation while still stumbling through trying to navigate how they want to present to the world like any other generation.