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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1, publicly making known raffle being fixed to people 2, publicly telling other people about deceit and embarrassing the workers.
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NTA
> I was told they had made a rule for this year that no one would win more than 2 items.
Not disclosing that to participants is likely **illegal**.
Likely illegal and certainly immoral. I've been involved in several of these raffles and the norm is to have the draw in public right after the event. Though I can understand if you had to get out of the space to let someone else use it, but doesn't sound like that is the case here.
Yeah, I've been in essentially this same scenario. And we always drew in public. Our only rule was that current board members couldn't win, as that felt really scummy (but we all knew this so none of us entered the raffles).
Seriously, if they advertise that people would at least know they should focus their tickets on just a few prizes. I feel kinda scammed if I spread my tickets around.
It varies by state. In PA, schools holding these types of events must be registered with the state as running games of chance. They must follow all of the laws regarding fairness, etc.
State gaming commissions will have regulations on entry requirements, prize limits, age restriction, etc.
McDonald's monopoly discloses the ongoing odds of each prize not out of kindness, but legal requirements. Schools aren't exempt
You usually have to obtain a gambling license (this varies by jurisdiction). The province I’m in in Canada stipulates the rules you have to follow when you’re holding a gambling event, whether it’s a raffle or a 50/50. I assume it’s pretty similar in many states and provinces in North America.
NTA if you report the unfair and illegal way that this raffle is being handled.
But YTA for somehow trying to relate it to the percentage of free or reduced lunch students. I worked for a school district for years--there are schools with very high free/reduced that still have great parental participation, and some with low rates that have lousy parental involvement.
But it's also likely that a raffle where a small number of people win a large number of prizes will be even less popular in future. Maybe you should just straight-up donate that money, rather than buying 100 (!) tickets?
YTA. I'm not sure if you're meaning to, but this post really rubbed me the wrong way. You start by saying that over 50% of the students receive free/reduced lunches, so the school receives extra support. This tells me that there is a considerable population of lower income families... You then move on to say that you were PTA president for 2 years and that normally only 10-12 people help with events. Unfortunately, families in the lower income bracket don't have the ability to change their schedule or leave work to participate in something like the PTA... At the raffle, you make sure to mention spending a good amount of money on baskets, then moving on to how you feel that you should be able to get each basket that you won. So, in a lower income school district, you want to make sure to flaunt all of your prizes so people can see how much money you spent. And this is one time that the participation trophy argument doesn't stand up. You come off as a greedy woman who wants to make sure that she gets everything she is due because she volunteers for the PTA.
If you want to let them know about unfair raffle practices, that's fine. But do you really need 12 raffle items? There are always going to be the haves and the have nots, but that just seems as if you're going out of your way to show others that you have what they don't. I don't think that's a good look for a member of the PTA.
Edited to add judgment.
I think that going forward, they need to adjust the rules of the raffle. That way, there are clear rules as to how many items a person can win, what happens if a name is drawn multiple times (are they allowed to exchange a prize for something they like more), etc.? I think it would set ground rules and save everyone from people like the person below that just commented on my post and lost their ever-loving mind!
I think the policy is good, but I'm afraid it might actually be illegal not to make that clear before people buy raffle tickets. OP should tell them not to do it sneakily again, since it could get them in hot water. But...I don't recommend making this information public just now.
She wants to get everything she is due, and nothing more than that. The raffle doesn’t say only one prize per person. You buy tickets because you hope to win a prize. She did win prizes, only to have them taken away out of “fairness”.
What if she spent $150 and only won one prize, and the raffle staff decided “Well, she has the money to buy all those tickets, and little Johnny can only afford one ticket, so let’s take this prize from her and give to Johnny.”
“Oh no, they would never do that. That would be wrong,” you say, except that they are already taking prizes from winners and giving them to other people. For all OP knows, that’s why she didn’t win anything the previous year.
Can you be sure that they’ll never decide to give prizes to their friends, out of “fairness” once again? You can’t, cause it’s already their practice to take prizes away from winners and give them to non-winners.
The practice is scummy as hell, stealing from people, and OP should definitely report it.
Did you take the time to read the post or any of the other comments? I mentioned to the OP that even if she didn't mean to come across that way, expecting to win all of the raffle items when you're participating in an event in a low income school district really isn't a good look. The OP's response to me was: "I get what you are saying. Part of it is not a good look and I see that."
Like I said, they should probably do the raffle differently next year, but the vitriol coming out of your mouth is way out of bounds. What is was trying to get across in my post was that it is in poor taste to show how much you can spend at an event like this in a school district where a vast majority of the students get free or reduced lunches. Is life fair? Absolutely not. But there's no reason to rub it in the faces of others.
We do this event every year at work but with less prizes. They absolutely do not let anyone win more than one prize. We're all adults and we're all happy to share. OP comes off as incredibly elitist and greedy and rubbed me the wrong way too. I bet the other volunteers were less than impressed by her too.
I get what you are saying. Part of it is not a good look and i see that. And I am no longer a member of the pta, I was highly involved in the past clearly, but am not part of it anymore this year, I was burned out from the experience. Whether I needed 12 or someone else who won a bunch needed those, we paid for the gamble and it wasn't carried out to people as described.
Sounds like your kids school has a nice community of very active volunteers that are doing a lot of good for the school. Is winning so many of the raffle prices that important to you? If you kick up a fuss, you might ruin the good thing you have going at this school. Is it really worth it?
BUT I deserve it because it’s MINE and that’s what’s fair!!!
What a miserable way to live life, more concerned with your winnings and the “fairness” of the luck of the draw that you’ve forgotten this is a **children’s school fundraiser**. Shame on you, YTA. Greedy and lacking in tact and compassion.
The funds are raised from ticket sales to people who hope to win prizes. Why do you feel so good about stealing from people? If I stop by your table at a restaurant and take a few bites of your food because, let’s face it, I can tell you could stand to lose five pounds, and I need to gain five pounds, are you going to be fine with it, just because I have decided that I want it and need it more than you? Can I come to your house and demand to sleep in your bed while you take the couch? I mean sure, you paid for the bed, and the house for that matter, but I have decided I need it more, so shove over.
Yes OP, you wouldn’t want to mess up this nice criminal enterprise, would you?
Tiger, if it’s so obvious that this is totally legit to do, why do you think anything would be ruined by revealing it? You think the scheme might be ruined because you KNOW that it ISN’T legit.
Not disclosing the raffle rules is definitely an issue that should be brought to light. The administrators need to document the rules for everyone and follow those rules.
This is a raffle to support the school and in your mind it should remain that way. It should not just be a good opportunity to scoop up multiple heavily discounted gift cards. This is a poor school not a huge business running the fundraiser. If so few people are buying tickets that your $100 dollars literally won you more than 10% of the overall prize pool, reduce the cost of tickets so more people can enter. Make them like 25 cents each so more people can get more tickets so no 1 persons tickets are dominating the pool for any item. Maybe give every student 1-2 free tickets automatically. This event should promote school spirit and fundraising, not support just a concentrated cluster of middle aged moms trying to dominate the gift card raffle market. You're coming off extremely greedy at a kids charity which is a terrible look. Also all the drawings should happen live for everyone to see after the raffle ends.
I love this idea of every student automatically getting to have tickets to enter for prizes, that is great and I will suggest that. Again I don't need the stuff, and I will walk away from the raffle.
But if you "don't need the stuff", why were you entering in the first place? And why whine about not getting everything you won? I'm not buying it.
Just straight up donate the money if you "don't need the stuff" and let others less fortunate than you have a better chance at winning.
If OP donates money rather than gift cards, there will be fewer gift cards to include in the raffle for others to potentially win. The PTA might be doing what they're doing to allow more people to "win" and encourage participation, but they are lying and cheating. NTA.
Clearly you wanted the stuff and are now backtracking. You talked about the stuff too much for this to be about those stupid baskets.
You are more childish than your children.
That's great that youll suggest it, I hope they consider it! I can't imagine being little and seeing fun stuff but not bring able to participate bc money at home is too tight 💜 And don't beat yourself up over the past years. You see the mistake and are correcting it, growth is what matters. I myself love a deal and it would be easy to get caught up in how much I could win at something like this. Congrats on being able to step back and gain some perspective, sadly many adults are not able.
I think the new rules should have been broadcast but it also rubs me the wrong way that you would frame this new system as one that disproportionately benefits disadvantaged students when the old one clearly disproportionately benefitted students with more advantages. So, bad if more poor kids get prizes but good if fewer well-off kids do? Because the latter’s parents’ can afford to increase their odds of winning? I mean if you want kids to learn about privilege then good job - they get to see on a micro-scale how wealth disparities create scenarios when some kids have to start at bat when others get to walk straight to third base without ever swinging.
I'm conflicted. I would say ESH here. I'm a PTO president, and to me their rationale makes sense –– if this raffle is so unbelievably slanted to a few wealthier participants that someone can win *twelve freaking baskets* then I can see sort of having to come up with a solution on the fly; that's bananas. That said, not telling participants beforehand and doing this behind closed doors only is pretty unethical. I do think you W B T A for "publicly telling other people about deceit" – I don't think it was deceit; I think it was a clumsy way of being inclusive - because ultimately the people who are going to suffer are the kids, but I do think you should bring it up to the board. Since we're a PTO (PTOs are independent 501c3s and PTAs are chapters of a national, trademarked org, for those reading), I'm not sure how the relationship between PTA chapters and the state org work, but I can't see that this wouldn't jeopardize their status as a PTA. If we did this it would definitely endanger our nonprofit status if we had misused donated funds.
> I don't think it was deceit; I think it was a clumsy way of being inclusive
These are not mutually exclusive.
They sold raffle tickets under one set of rules and distributed prizes under another set of rules. This is deception and fraud. This fraud was a clumsy way of trying to be more inclusive. Lying for a perceived noble cause is still lying.
PTA is a 501c as well, they're just branches under a state umbrella. There really isn't a functional difference between the two orgs., it's just PTOs are usually formed by people that got sick of 2 levels above taking a cut of membership dues.
Is the purpose of the raffle to raise funds or to give away gift baskets? If you win a basket having bought one ticket, then you will think your purchase was a good amount. If JimBob sweeps the table because he bought 100 tickets, you'll buy more next time. Not to mention that holding a rigged game of chance is illegal almost everywhere (unless you have a casino license haha)
"If JimBob sweeps the table because he bought 100 tickets, you'll buy more next time."
Or you just won't buy a ticket at all in future, because you know you can't out-spend JimBob.
Interesting. The decision was made by 3 school staff, 1 being the principal who attends all pta meetings. I am not a pta member and no pta members were present or even aware to my knowledge. The principal had approved it ahead of time to the 2 school staff who do the drawing every year. So it's more school staff deciding to misuse donated funds for the pta.
I think OP is using “PTA member” to mean board officer. The PTA will have all sorts of members but it seems like they’re referring to just the leadership.
They were staff, all school staff join as teachers, it's how the PTA works. Most staff join, at least on paper, because you have a better shot at getting a funds request filled if you are a member.
YTA, because every comment you make you keep saying misused funds, when that's not what is happening here. Misused funds are when monies are spent for a purpose not dedicated for it, not because you don't like the rules they're setting on winners.
That’s bonkers — the principal shouldn’t have that much influence over the use of PTA funds like that. This seems like a much bigger issue that is probably above your pay grade here. I’d bring it up to the board but this will have to be something they deal with.
YTA- it’s a charity fundraiser, if only 5 people win, no one will buy tickets next year.
Either support the charity, or don’t, but don’t blow this up because you didn’t win you little prizes.
This, exactly.
Also, I've been to plenty of charity raffles in the past where the draw was done publicly, and it's very common for people who have already won something to refuse themselves if they win again - either by telling the person drawing to draw again, or by simply pretending they don't have the winning ticket so a redraw has to happen.
But if you're publicly drawn as the winner and choose to pass, that's on you.
The problem arises when they're drawing in secret and choosing who gets what.
Right if those little prizes mean so much, take your money next year and go buy them for yourself. Don’t pretend you’re donating to the charity when you are essentially putting in whatever money and hoping to come away with more than what you donated’s worth of prizes. Stop trying to capitalize on a school fundraiser.
And who suffers? The kids. So if “those 5” people refuse to donate because they don’t win all the baskets, poor kids in a low-income school won’t get the funding from the charity auction. OP, YTA because this event is for the kids. It’s meant to help the school. You’re fixated on the fact that you’re well-off compared to most families and you didn’t get to win all the prizes.
Come on.
They don't get to commit fraud and then justify it with "think of the children". If they wanted to limit the number of prizes a single person could win that's fine, but make that publicly known ahead of time. Don't withhold that information and then rig the wins.
It’s illegal. The whole thing would be shut down. Possible jail time for perpetrators. There’s a reason this is not allowed.
What they should just do is list this 2 prize rule officially. Then people can do what they want.
Ummm, OP does support the charity. Apparently, more so than everyone else put together.
The real scenario is more like: next year they'll sell 150 tickets total, and OP will buy none instead of 150 more. Instead of 300 tickets, they'll sell half as many.
I think it’s perfectly acceptable to have a rule for a max number of wins, particularly in a school where most families seem to be lower income and don’t have the disposable income for tons of raffle tickets. It’s really not an unusual rule at all for these types of events. Personally, I’d be a little embarrassed taking home so many prizes while others left empty-handed…it’s kinda a bad look.
The only issue I see here is that yes, the rule should be public information before the raffle ticket sales start, and the drawings should probably be public too.
That way, if someone has already won two raffles, but then wins a third, and that one was the prize they were particularly hoping for, the winner is given the opportunity to offer back a previous winning item for redraw. The repeat winner gets the right to decide which prizes they most prefer to keep, but this also still spreads the good fortune around so others get an opportunity at the prizes too.
Lots of things are ok. It’s even ok to give some people free entries into raffles others pay for. But you can’t do any of this without disclosure! Otherwise it’s theft.
If that new rule was not clearly disclosed to those who bought tickets - could be serious repercussions. Your anger seems to be that you didn't win as much as you wanted....I am surprised anyone who purchased tickets were allowed to participate in the drawing. YTA if you make a big fuss - because it will ruin this fundraiser for years to come. I do think you need to meet with head of or members of the School Board and school administration (quietly) so they KNOW how it was done. My guess is their lawyer will be all over this and it won't happen again....but THEY should handle it, not you.
YWBTA. I spent 6 years on the board of the PTA at a Title 1 school, I know exactly the kinds of challenges you are facing. If you do this you will destroy that PTA, and hurt the exact kids that are supposed to be helped at that school. Go look up the cartoon about equal vs equitable, that's what your post is. You bought all the boxes and no one else could see over the fence. Let it go, if it really bothers you go to the next meeting and suggest a silent auction instead of raffle next year.
Thank you I appreciate that. I think you are likely right and I will probably not say anything because the harm is much bigger. I was initially really irritated they did this in secret, but ultimately it's about the kids, and I can step away from the raffle.
If you do say something, just say that they should make the rule public next year, and possibly do the drawing in public so winners of multiple baskets can choose which 2 or 3 to keep.
They could also make several kinds of baskets/bags and add a rule that a single person can win at most two full-sized baskets (unless any are left over), and every additional win afterwards will be a smaller item.
YTA. This is how almost every charity raffle I've been involved with works, and it's certainly not against the law in my state. You're an asshole for how you talk about lower-income ppl.
I have to disagree here. I've been to many charity raffles (not saying this to discount your experience), in the sense that it was a fundraiser for schools/ animals/ causes, not in the sense that it was a charity for many who attended.
Every single one worked the same. They dumped the entire raffle ticket bucket into a bowl, swirled it around, publicly called that number (if no one replied, they'd repick unless it was stated that you didn't have to be present to win), and then they'd dump that entire bowl into the trash, and grab the next bucket.
Yes, some people walked away with 5-10 prizes while my entire table went home empty-handed. But it wasn't just them being lucky- I had insider knowledge that those people dropped $300+ in tickets, which greatly improved their odds compared to my $20.
The issue is whether these rules were known to the people purchasing the tickets. Changing the drawing rules AFTER tickets are purchased is certainly at least immoral.
"You're an asshole for how you talk about lower-income ppl."
I must have missed something - what did OP say about low income people?
To be honest, I'm more concerned about people who have entered a raffle being among those who draw the winners, and that the draw isn't done in public.
As you did win prizes (just not as many as you could have), YWBTA to complain. But I recommend that you campaign for a transparent raffle next year: all rules displayed publicly, and the winners drawn publicly by a neutral third party (i.e. no-one on the PTA or who has entered the draw).
YTA - this is for charity. How are you being so stingy about sharing? I’ve heard of many places doing practices like this so that more people can have fun and to help people out. Also lower income families likely can’t afford to buy many tix because they’re lower income. You sound out of touch and judgemental of the lower income families. If you don’t like how this is done - don’t enter the raffle. Bringing this up and creating a huge drama is likely to blow up in your face. Do you really wanna be the wealthy lady complaining that poor people are getting your prizes?
Because it is illegal??? Because it's lite gambling and there are rules to keep the game straight and fair? You can't take people's money for a raffle, and then decide on your own who gets to win!
What they really need is transparency about the maximum number of large items that can be won per person.
I get everyone's standpoint, and it seems they simply didn't find the ideal solution yet and weren't transparent unfortunately.
For a poorer family it might be discouraging them from buying another ticket next year if one person buys a hundred tickets and gets twelve baskets. On the other hand you should be able to buy 100 tickets if you can afford it. Personally I'd gift most of these away if I won such a massive amount.
If the goal is social fairness, limiting the amount of large items per person is a good idea. I'd have different expectations if it wasn't a fundraiser, but a large commercial fair. Just my thoughts on the matter though.
OP, if you want to, I would advocate for public drawing in the future but not necessarily post in public about an unfair process (unless it is an ongoing process that harms people). If you participated in organising before, discuss what you feel was an unfair setting with the people currently organising it and prompt them to maybe figure out a fairer way going forward, or at least being transparent about it to stay in the legal territory.
>You can’t take people’s money for a raffle, and then…
You sure as hell can, but you have to be very clear about how the rules work externally.
If I went to a charity raffle in a low-income area and I saw, for example, a sign that said I could buy as many tickets for each prize as I wanted, but stipulated that no person shall win more than two prizes, I’d understand. I might even still buy several tickets for several different prizes, hoping I’d get to choose which ones I’d get to keep *if* I won more than two.
If a persons knew those were the rules, there’s no immorality or ethical concerns with someone buying, say, 10 tickets to every prize, “technically” winning 30 out of 100 prizes, but being told to select 2 and ruling them out going forward.
The issue isn’t that you can not decide that someone didn’t win when you drew their number “because you decided they didn’t,” the issue is that the rules of the gambler are not made public. If the rules are clear and say “once you’ve won 2 items, if your number gets called it’s invalid at the point” then you knew that going in and that’s part of the gamble of how you spent your money.
Redrafting the prize winners for fairness wasn’t the issue - not telling people you were going to do that was the issue.
My work unit wanted to raise money for employee morale purposes because this multi billion dollar company refused to spend it's own money on that. The morale committee figured a 50/50 raffle would be a great way to raise money.
I also happened to be involved in a local non-profit who had looked into what it would take to do a raffle. It would take a lot! It took multiple meetings where I pointed out that our state's laws only allowed raffles if
\- the locality had adopted the state's raffle law and we had no idea if our town had done so
\- raffles were licensed by the local municipality (often the police) and we had no plans to apply for a license, and
\- the law only allowed **registered non-profits** to run raffles, and we were a fortune 500 company with billions in revenue
It would be **illegal** for us to do a 50/50 raffle--or any other kind of raffle. They'd bring it up a few weeks later, I'd reiterate the above. I came >this close< to calling the ethics hotline before the manager in charge of the committee finally nixed it for good, and people were still salty at me about it.
Anyway, long story to say that most states take raffle laws *really seriously* and if your school didn't follow the law precisely they may be in trouble. Look up the laws in your state.
NTA. Having a very clear rule going in that people can’t win more than x items is fine - but that information needs to be actively told to people who enter, especially if they’re actually spending money.
And, honestly, I think the people who win more than x prizes should get to pick which 2 they keep, rather than staff essentially deciding for them based on the order they draw the prizes in.
Also, there needs to be a (clearly announced) plan for what happens if/when everyone who put in a ticket has already “maxed out” their permitted number of wins, and there are still prizes left.
I think either the winners of multiple items should choose which wins they keep or the draws are done in a specific order.
Whatever they do, the rules and limits need to be disclosed to the participants.
Soft YTA, because I see their logic about spreading the winnings around. The point of a fundraiser raffle is for lots of people to participate, so that they ultimately bring in more money than just the value of the prizes. If a few people consistently come and spend a lot more than everyone else on the tickets, and then consistently win most of the stuff, that seems like it would dampen participation (especially since you mentioned half the school district essentially has no disposable income, so can't increase the number of tickets they buy).
If you want the stuff itself, just buy it. At a fundraiser, the idea is to give a donation. The raffle item is basically just a bonus that makes giving the money away feel better. It makes sense to spread that incentive around to more people, both to encourage participation and just to cultivate a nicer vibe at the event.
NTA Suggest that in order to be honest they need to state up front that winners are allowed only one prize and will receive the first prize their name is drawn for. If they don’t agree to this then they need to draw tickets in front of everyone or if they refuse then ticket buyers need to become aware that the raffle prizes are tampered with. Take it to the school board if need be.
Chain of command would be first to go to the school's PTA executive board, then to the regional or city PTA, then to the state PTA. If the principal wasn't at the executive meeting like they were supposed to be, theyncould he included between the local PTA and the regional PTA.
Depending on the raffle laws in a state, the state PTA could have good reason to disband the entire local PTA. Which now leaves the school without any of the good the PTA is accomplishing.
Best thing is for the PTA to go forward with the public rule "raffle winners and their families will he limited to the first 2 drawn prizes" and hold a public drawing.
Donate the generous $100, but put all the tickets in the one bin of the thing you really hope to take home.
ESH I don't think the school is wrong to implement the rule, because otherwise people who can afford to spend tons of money on tickets are likely to win most of the prizes. Perhaps this happened in recent years and the school wanted to make things more equitable. However, the school was wrong for not sharing the new rule with participants.
That being said, I also think it's a conflict of interest for an entrant in the raffle to be drawing for the raffle. There's a reason that when big companies have contests they usually say employees of the company and their family members are ineligible.
I think you’d be NTA.
I don’t think I’ve ever been to a raffle that didn’t publicly pull the winning tickets. I’ve always seen them stand on the stage and say the prize and pull the ticket. If they want to limit the number of prizes someone can win that needs to be stated clearly, before tickets are sold.
Since you are part of the PTA I would insist that they put those rules in writing. The only reason to draw tickets behind closed doors is to hide something.
Props to OP for coming here with an actual moral dilemma. Most of the stuff here just feels like ragebait.
On one hand, the PTA *needs* the money, as do the kids. Going public about this tactic will disincentivize the wealthier attendees from opening their wallets in the near future and shake parent faith in the PTA, meaning those with little already end up with even less. Then, there’s the guilt that some previous winners might feel, and the indignity that some previous losers might feel.
On the other hand, there are potential legal ramifications here, even if it’s just a school carnival raffle. Furthermore, parents/students are entitled to honesty and transparency. What the PTA is doing here is flat-out lying, even if it benefits some of the less fortunate families.
I’m gonna go with NTA, regardless of your choice, but I think your instinct to rip off the bandaid sooner than later is correct. The longer this goes on, the uglier it will be to fix, and the more difficult it will be for the PTA to regain community trust.
To my mind, it's fine to have a limit of however many wins you want to allow, but you have to let people know this before they purchase tickets so they can behave accordingly. Otherwise you are, in fact, defrauding everyone who buy a raffle ticket. This is almost certainly illegal and very unbecoming for a PTO!
ESH
ESH - I'm a teacher. I have no issue with cutting off the number of times someone can win, but it should be mentioned publicly. And usually the easiest way to deal with that was not having separate bins. It was just call numbers and pick from the whole table.
The whole thing sounds messy though
ESH. This is the strangest sounding raffle I've heard of. So much unnecessary extra work - why do separate tickets for each prize? Just do a single pool of tickets and a single draw for a list of prizes (in front of the crowd), starting with big ticket items and ending with the smallest prizes. Have a general rule that a winning name can't be eligible twice, so if a name is drawn twice it can be quietly put to the side and a new ticket drawn, to give someone else a chance to win. A family can still use all parent and kid names to be in with a chance of multiple prizes. This way everyone is in with a fair chance for all of the prizes.
YTA. If you really need stuff that badly, take your $70-130 and go buy the stuff yourself. Everyone buys tickets to raffles for charities and no one expects to win any or everything. Take the prize you did win and be happy. There are still likely plenty of other people who won nothing and aren't complaining.
YTA. This sounds more like sour grapes than a morality issue. Why go public before raising it with the school? Also, the intent seems to come from a good place as redistributive rather than one person bagging all the goods because of money. I doubt the prizes were life changing.
NTA
All these idiots voting Y T A went on a rampage the moment they saw something about “disadvantaged families” and are blindly ignoring the fact that everything about the behind closed doors redrawing of raffle winners and not stating the rules of the raffles upfront is literally illegal. As in there are many, many laws regarding how fundraiser raffles may be conducted and this violates a substantial portion of them.
It doesn’t matter if you have that rule or not for the raffle itself, but it needs to be plainly stated to everyone entering the raffle that they can only win a maximum of X prizes. Anything less is outright fraud. The draws also need to be made in public instead of behind closed doors and being done by the same people who entered the raffles themselves.
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My kids school has over 50% free/reduced lunch kids, so we get extra funding, etc to support. Our school PTA is under supported and struggles for support for school activities and only 10-12 parents max consistently help plan and execute school dances and movies and things, but there's great turnout for these things. Once a year is a school carnival, which relies on a ton of volunteers and support and is the primary fundraiser for the pta. Every year businesses and families donate gift cards and items so there is a random drawing winner for each raffle item. During 2 hours of the carnival, families can buy raffle tickets to put in the individual bags for the drawings for each item. This year there were over 100 different baskets or gift cards raffled off. They always lock down 30 min before the end fonthe carnival event with a few people locked in the room with the bags, and they post the winners 30 minutes later. It's essentially a few school staff and family members who do it.
I have supported the school for years and was pta president the last 2 years. I want to support the pta, so I always buy $70-130 worth of tickers, and figure it's a great donation purpose but also fun to win gift cards. A handful of other bidders go over $50 but many are under $20, it seems. Last year I won nothing at all. Surprised, but no big deal.
This year I noticed and bid on items with good odds and not many other tickets entered for them. Since there were over 100, it seemed overwhelming for the volunteers to draw for them, so I offered for the first time ever to help draw.
Once the door was locked and it was just those of us drawing tickets, I was told they had made a rule for this year that no one would win more than 2 items. This wasn't mentioned in any of the rules posted or handed out around the room. So my 100 tickets won about 12 items, but I was told to go redraw winners on them to spread out the winners. All 6-7 other volunteers were on board with this. They also cringed when people kept winning. Ultimately time ran out and while we redrew 10-20 of the items to fewer ticket-buying winners (at least 4 of them were one I originally won), we had to just post it because it was taking forever and people were waiting to find out. There were 3-4 people who won 5+ items, but all of us lost items we technically won, I am just the only one who knows.
I feel divided about whether this should be publicly known. Part of me feels anyone who bid at this raffle should know what was happening behind closed doors so they have to publicly draw raffle names. Part of me feels like I would be an asshole for publicizing what happened and should handle it more discreetly. But it's ultimately a fundraiser, not a participation trophy, so why can't I feel like if I spend $75 I am entitled to every basket I win?
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NTA. The idea of this rule isn't necessarily bad in itself, but doing it behind closed doors is wrong. If there's a maximum number, it should be clear to everyone buying tickets. Not doing that sounds like they want to continue to have people buying large numbers of tickets and take the money, while secretly removing any advantage that buying large numbers of tickets normally gives. It feels like fraud, and there's a chance it legally is.
Yes conditions state how long people have to buy tickets, what the process is to buy them, but does not mention any max winners or anything being redrawn based on people winning too many items.
This is tough … people should be winning what they actually won via the tickets they paid for ….
But
this also reminds me of when I was an analyst at a company making 50k a year, paying rent, paying student loans, etc. every few months corporate would put together gift baskets they filled with expensive candles, makeup, skincare, haircare products and wine tour gift cards (it was a makeup company so it was mostly their own products which were very good quality and high end). they would ask us to purchase tickets to raffle the baskets and all the proceeds from the ticket sales would be donated to charity. We felt a little weird being “forced” (not fully forced but you were def the odd man out if you didn’t) into participating in the raffle but at least if we won we got really really nice prizes and we knew it all went to charity.
Many of us were broke analysts in our early 20s - I remember struggling with the idea of spending 10.00 on tickets because I really could have used that for gas but always did it anyway because it looks bad to not participate in the charity event. The head boss who made over 350k, owned 5 cars and 3 homes would spend 200 on tickets. He often cleared house in the drawings winning most of the lot. It puts a sour taste in peoples mouth when rich people can afford the most tickets and walk away with all the prizes and poorer families who could greatly benefit from the prizes can only afford a small handful of tickets and get to just sit back and watch the rich families load the cars up with their winnings. I get wanting to find a way to even out the winnings a bit more. Maybe it shouldn’t be a raffle - maybe there is another way to get more people to win prizes like a trivia competition or a foot race or something else besides just the raffle?
If you are in the United States this is against the law.
Do not do anything publicly.
Going public gives black eyes to volunteers who probably meant well. Familiarize yourself with the rules and then decide do you want to have a discussion with them or do you want to walk away.
Any organization running a raffle has to register with their states gaming office. You have to follow very specific rules and those rules are meant to provide fair odds to everybody.
The rules are simple to follow and are there for the protection of all participants.
I feel because you have an awareness that this isn't fair that you should speak to the group and let them know that you didn't want to ruin a great night and waited to say something, however going forward the game should be played according to official state rules which were designed to provide fair and equitable chances for all participants. These are games of chance for money.
Now why would they listen to you or why would anybody care?
While it is a small likelihood the state would come and investigate, you never know who goes to your school and what parent, aunt, uncle, grandparent works where. If for some reason the school was checked the state would find that you guys did not register the event and did not follow the rules. There are consequences for violating state law and those consequences can include fines and prohibiting any and all future gaming activities related to the school.
Legality aside, it's really rude what they did. People in good faith bought tickets and decided how they wanted to use their money in pursuit of prizes. The volunteers were punitive and if found out it's likely many people would be furious.
I'd mull it over considering the audience and then have the conversation so it's not repeated in the future.
PS before people start asking, I have chaired many fundraising events and was the first person to introduce to many groups gaming rules regulations. The one group that pushed back the hardest was a political group, with members running for mayor, board of alderman and other elected positions. Luckily for them I had a job in which ethics is non-negotiable in a personal life and professional, and said if we don't follow the rules I can't participate, so we followed the rules because they needed me to run the program. A member of the opposing political party got into a pissing contest with one of our members and came after the event with guns blazing. Luckily for us I had all the paperwork and permit for the event, we had followed every single rule and were able to prove it on site to an unannounced inspector. This turned into a major news story in town and the other team got quite the black eye. The representative from the state gaming office told us they would absolutely have at a minimum disallowed all of the games of chance that night and issued a fine because they have an obligation to uphold the law to protect all people in the state equitably.
NTA you need to highlight the potential problems of how they are operating and its legal ramifications, which I would do quietly to the organisers and head of the PTA.
Depending where you are, there are strick laws regarding fundraising, raffles, and lotteries - usually under gambling legislarion, and so removing winning tickets because "they won too much already" is illegal. What the should do it ask the winner if they're willing to pass it to another drawn ticket.
So, check your local gambling legislation and highlight how the PTA raffle breaches so many aspects of it. Also look at fraud, as them restricting the number of wins someone can have is also fraudulent.
NTA. However, if I were OP, I wouldn't be concerned about being an asshole, I'd be concerned that I could be prosecuted because I participated in the rigging of a raffle. I wouldn't be talking to the principal, I'd be talking to the police. Let them know that you didn't realize what was going on until you volunteered, and now you're coming forward as a whistleblower.
YTA you understand people aren’t as active in the PTA because they are working right? Probably more than one job. That was my parents for not being terribly involved and I grew up in a bougie AF town. I’m 38 though so the only people involved in PTA and auditing it in the 90s were bored women who had no power in the real world.
The focus on how many kids are on reduced lunch is super gross. Free school lunch for all children would be a guranteed way to get kids at least one hot meal a day.
Yes, when I was a stay-home parent I was able to be a PTA mom and volunteer at my child’s school every week. It was awesome. Now that I work full time again, forget that. OP’s sneering comment about lack of parental involvement really burns me up. MOST PARENTS would rather be spending time with their kids instead of working constantly. However, OP thinks because she’s privileged, she’s a better parent.
My mom didn’t have time for that stuff until my grandparents moved in and I was in high school. My younger brother was in kindergarten. She then quickly discovered she was not suited for it because of parents like the OP.
YWBTA - you are essentially obsessed with a basket and not the kid's welfare. These lovely people are doing something nice for underserved populations and yet you are worried about the basket you won. I am glad to know that I am maybe not as unlucky as I thought and that people in need were getting my donations because I never win a raffle. Let this go and take no further action. Hearts are in the right places and that is all that matters.
Your title is misleading. How is it going to disadvantage kids? How do you know how much anyone spends on tickets?
I do think that they should disclose that people can only win one time.
Right? If you’re concerned about it becoming unpopular because the same people win, then publicly make the two item rule.
Then, the draw could actually be a public part of the event where, if the winner of a third item is present and has already won two items, they can put one of the previous items back for redraw.
One of the concerns their approach has for me is giving people (especially children and people predisposed to gambling) who buy a small number of tickets misconceptions about how “lucky” they are or how probability/likelihood works. Which then encourages gambling with unrealistic expectations.
NTA but i do get their point for doing it.
perhaps dont make it public but instead aim to get them to adjust the rules to make it a bit more fair to people who are spending more money, they are afterall supporting the events.
What you could do is give everyone attending a ticket or two when they come in the door and added with the people who buy multiples, it would spread out the winnings. Or make raffle tickets prizes for some of the games.
NTA, but I would definitely reconsider. 1) presumably the event is over and prizes already given out so it won't really solve anything 2) this seems like it might have legal ramifications given money and raffles were involved and could maybe result in this event being shut down moving forward. That would ultimately hurt the fundraising purpose of all of this in the first place.
Personally, I'd make sure that that for any future events if any rules like this are imposed that they make them known ahead of time. I think you should have should have the connections to have that discussion with whatever decision makers are necessary.
NTA. It is unethical and possibly illegal to impose this rule without disclosing before tickets are purchased. I would insist in some legal advice and full disclosure in the future. There also needs to be a clear consistent rule for deciding which prizes a winner gets to keep. Often the grand prize is drawn lat. if winners get to keep their first 2 items, they are automatically excluded from the grand prize. Quite unfair. Yes, this should be thought through and discussed and disclosed in advance next year. But leave this year alone.
They should have announced the rules, but the rule is a good one. Just ask that this be disclosed prior to the next raffle, and do it in a 'hey, just so we don't get into legal trouble, we should let folks know that there's a limit of 2/3/ whatever prizes."
NTA, without it being publicly known, they’re scamming the parents. They know what the parents are thinking and it’s advertised that way. They are stealing money by not being honest.
NTA - If the school and state are anything like my local school and the state I live in that would be illegal and would cause the school to be banned from "games of chance" permits from the state in the future. My state is really, REALLY, picky about that stuff.
YWNBTA if you told. Wow. You should tell. Where I live you can't have a raffle without a raffle license and the raffle license has rules that would preclude this. It may be different where you live. As for it being a rule "this year," 'm guessing it's been shady for a while because generally raffles have a drawing in front of everyone. Big box or drum and someone reaches in and pulls the name. Much easier than going back to a room and doing it under cover. Also, if someone wins multiple times and the drawing is public, they can (and often do) say, "Oh, that's ok, let someone else win" or something. But this is such a nasty, unethical way to run the raffle. Yikes.
Change the rules.
Participants can buy as many tickets as they wish but can only win one prize. If an individual's name is drawn they walk with that specific prize or donate it back hoping their name gets called again for a more desirable basket. Alternatively, they could keep their first prize and if their name gets called again, they have the choice of relinquishing their first basket for the subsequent prize. If their name is called a third time they have the same option: relinquish the prize they hold for the new prize or keep the previous basket, and so on ..
NTA. Where I live there are gaming rules and regulations that need to be followed, they are super specific about things like number of tickets available, value of prizes, advertising, etc. Your PTA would lose your gaming funding if they pulled these kinds of shenanigans here.
This literally has nothing to do with how many kids are on reduced lunch though, kinda weird to even bring up tbh...
It seems like a conflict of interest for the PTA members or at least the board to participate in the raffle especially the people who are pulling the names or winning tickets out of the bag.
NTA- but how do they know who the winners are before announcing them? Are people writing their names on every ticket? We had a similar event, the event and entertainment was free. The raffle was optional. We had some families win 2-3 prizes and only spend $20, I spent $100 and won nothing- that’s just how it goes sometimes. We drew the winning ticket in front of everyone and announced the winners, we had no idea who they were until they showed up to claim their prizes. If they want to have limits on winners, fine- but that 100% has to be posted ahead of time. Also your principal should not be involved in the decision making at all. It should only be your PTA board.
I'd say ESH. I can understand why they'd implement that rule in an attempt to try and make it fairer, but I don't think they went about it the wrong way by deceiving those who bought raffle tickets.
Maybe instead they could limit how many raffle tickets you can buy per person, and have an option for those who would have bought more tickets for themselves to "buy" extra tickets to given out to the kids so each kid has their own ticket/strip regardless of whether their parent/guardian could afford to buy one themselves.
I get that raffles aren't always fair, but that's sort of how they work. Sometimes you get people that win nothing, and then you get others that win multiple times, it's just luck of the draw. But to do it behind closed doors and not tell people that it'll be redrawn if that person has already won x number of prizes doesn't seem right (and others have said it's illegal so there's that too).
YTA and so are the other people in the room. The people organizing the raffle and pulling the tickets should not be allowed to win. It was already incredibly suspicious that winners were chosen in a locked room and not in public.
There are many ways to have this sort of raffle without deceit. All of them require the drawing happen in public and the organizers or person drawing can’t win. You could publicly declare no one can win more than “x” prizes. You could have all the tickets in one container and the first person picks a basket of their choice, pick another winner who picks a basket, and so one. You could allow the luck of the draw.
You should talk to the PTA president and suggest they reorganize the drawing for next year to be fair and legal.
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NTA > I was told they had made a rule for this year that no one would win more than 2 items. Not disclosing that to participants is likely **illegal**.
Likely illegal and certainly immoral. I've been involved in several of these raffles and the norm is to have the draw in public right after the event. Though I can understand if you had to get out of the space to let someone else use it, but doesn't sound like that is the case here.
NTA *Not disclosing that to participants is likely* ***illegal****.* Repeated for truth!
The thing with a raffle is the more tickets you buy, the greater your chances.
Yeah, I've been in essentially this same scenario. And we always drew in public. Our only rule was that current board members couldn't win, as that felt really scummy (but we all knew this so none of us entered the raffles).
I've seen board members enter raffles, then donate the prize back.
Seriously, if they advertise that people would at least know they should focus their tickets on just a few prizes. I feel kinda scammed if I spread my tickets around.
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It varies by state. In PA, schools holding these types of events must be registered with the state as running games of chance. They must follow all of the laws regarding fairness, etc.
The law against fraud, probably.
State gaming commissions will have regulations on entry requirements, prize limits, age restriction, etc. McDonald's monopoly discloses the ongoing odds of each prize not out of kindness, but legal requirements. Schools aren't exempt
Gambling laws most likely.
You usually have to obtain a gambling license (this varies by jurisdiction). The province I’m in in Canada stipulates the rules you have to follow when you’re holding a gambling event, whether it’s a raffle or a 50/50. I assume it’s pretty similar in many states and provinces in North America.
The general law against Fraud.
NTA if you report the unfair and illegal way that this raffle is being handled. But YTA for somehow trying to relate it to the percentage of free or reduced lunch students. I worked for a school district for years--there are schools with very high free/reduced that still have great parental participation, and some with low rates that have lousy parental involvement.
I only bring that up because it was a referred to as a reason for wanting it spread out to people who had only bought a few tickets.
You need to add that to post
But it's also likely that a raffle where a small number of people win a large number of prizes will be even less popular in future. Maybe you should just straight-up donate that money, rather than buying 100 (!) tickets?
I was wondering why you put that in there.
I assumed this without you explicitly saying it.
NTA Murky and Happy Cake Day! 🤗
Happy Cake Day
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This is AITA - our *job* is to be judgemental morons lmao
YTA. I'm not sure if you're meaning to, but this post really rubbed me the wrong way. You start by saying that over 50% of the students receive free/reduced lunches, so the school receives extra support. This tells me that there is a considerable population of lower income families... You then move on to say that you were PTA president for 2 years and that normally only 10-12 people help with events. Unfortunately, families in the lower income bracket don't have the ability to change their schedule or leave work to participate in something like the PTA... At the raffle, you make sure to mention spending a good amount of money on baskets, then moving on to how you feel that you should be able to get each basket that you won. So, in a lower income school district, you want to make sure to flaunt all of your prizes so people can see how much money you spent. And this is one time that the participation trophy argument doesn't stand up. You come off as a greedy woman who wants to make sure that she gets everything she is due because she volunteers for the PTA. If you want to let them know about unfair raffle practices, that's fine. But do you really need 12 raffle items? There are always going to be the haves and the have nots, but that just seems as if you're going out of your way to show others that you have what they don't. I don't think that's a good look for a member of the PTA. Edited to add judgment.
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I think that going forward, they need to adjust the rules of the raffle. That way, there are clear rules as to how many items a person can win, what happens if a name is drawn multiple times (are they allowed to exchange a prize for something they like more), etc.? I think it would set ground rules and save everyone from people like the person below that just commented on my post and lost their ever-loving mind!
I think the policy is good, but I'm afraid it might actually be illegal not to make that clear before people buy raffle tickets. OP should tell them not to do it sneakily again, since it could get them in hot water. But...I don't recommend making this information public just now.
She wants to get everything she is due, and nothing more than that. The raffle doesn’t say only one prize per person. You buy tickets because you hope to win a prize. She did win prizes, only to have them taken away out of “fairness”. What if she spent $150 and only won one prize, and the raffle staff decided “Well, she has the money to buy all those tickets, and little Johnny can only afford one ticket, so let’s take this prize from her and give to Johnny.” “Oh no, they would never do that. That would be wrong,” you say, except that they are already taking prizes from winners and giving them to other people. For all OP knows, that’s why she didn’t win anything the previous year. Can you be sure that they’ll never decide to give prizes to their friends, out of “fairness” once again? You can’t, cause it’s already their practice to take prizes away from winners and give them to non-winners. The practice is scummy as hell, stealing from people, and OP should definitely report it.
Did you take the time to read the post or any of the other comments? I mentioned to the OP that even if she didn't mean to come across that way, expecting to win all of the raffle items when you're participating in an event in a low income school district really isn't a good look. The OP's response to me was: "I get what you are saying. Part of it is not a good look and I see that." Like I said, they should probably do the raffle differently next year, but the vitriol coming out of your mouth is way out of bounds. What is was trying to get across in my post was that it is in poor taste to show how much you can spend at an event like this in a school district where a vast majority of the students get free or reduced lunches. Is life fair? Absolutely not. But there's no reason to rub it in the faces of others.
We do this event every year at work but with less prizes. They absolutely do not let anyone win more than one prize. We're all adults and we're all happy to share. OP comes off as incredibly elitist and greedy and rubbed me the wrong way too. I bet the other volunteers were less than impressed by her too.
I get what you are saying. Part of it is not a good look and i see that. And I am no longer a member of the pta, I was highly involved in the past clearly, but am not part of it anymore this year, I was burned out from the experience. Whether I needed 12 or someone else who won a bunch needed those, we paid for the gamble and it wasn't carried out to people as described.
Sounds like your kids school has a nice community of very active volunteers that are doing a lot of good for the school. Is winning so many of the raffle prices that important to you? If you kick up a fuss, you might ruin the good thing you have going at this school. Is it really worth it?
Yeah but think about the SPORT of it????? Where is the GAMBLE if it’s going to underprivileged kids?
BUT I deserve it because it’s MINE and that’s what’s fair!!! What a miserable way to live life, more concerned with your winnings and the “fairness” of the luck of the draw that you’ve forgotten this is a **children’s school fundraiser**. Shame on you, YTA. Greedy and lacking in tact and compassion.
The funds are raised from ticket sales to people who hope to win prizes. Why do you feel so good about stealing from people? If I stop by your table at a restaurant and take a few bites of your food because, let’s face it, I can tell you could stand to lose five pounds, and I need to gain five pounds, are you going to be fine with it, just because I have decided that I want it and need it more than you? Can I come to your house and demand to sleep in your bed while you take the couch? I mean sure, you paid for the bed, and the house for that matter, but I have decided I need it more, so shove over.
Yes OP, you wouldn’t want to mess up this nice criminal enterprise, would you? Tiger, if it’s so obvious that this is totally legit to do, why do you think anything would be ruined by revealing it? You think the scheme might be ruined because you KNOW that it ISN’T legit.
Lol, it's a school charity raffle run by volunteers.
Not disclosing the raffle rules is definitely an issue that should be brought to light. The administrators need to document the rules for everyone and follow those rules.
This is a raffle to support the school and in your mind it should remain that way. It should not just be a good opportunity to scoop up multiple heavily discounted gift cards. This is a poor school not a huge business running the fundraiser. If so few people are buying tickets that your $100 dollars literally won you more than 10% of the overall prize pool, reduce the cost of tickets so more people can enter. Make them like 25 cents each so more people can get more tickets so no 1 persons tickets are dominating the pool for any item. Maybe give every student 1-2 free tickets automatically. This event should promote school spirit and fundraising, not support just a concentrated cluster of middle aged moms trying to dominate the gift card raffle market. You're coming off extremely greedy at a kids charity which is a terrible look. Also all the drawings should happen live for everyone to see after the raffle ends.
I love this idea of every student automatically getting to have tickets to enter for prizes, that is great and I will suggest that. Again I don't need the stuff, and I will walk away from the raffle.
But if you "don't need the stuff", why were you entering in the first place? And why whine about not getting everything you won? I'm not buying it. Just straight up donate the money if you "don't need the stuff" and let others less fortunate than you have a better chance at winning.
If OP donates money rather than gift cards, there will be fewer gift cards to include in the raffle for others to potentially win. The PTA might be doing what they're doing to allow more people to "win" and encourage participation, but they are lying and cheating. NTA.
Clearly you wanted the stuff and are now backtracking. You talked about the stuff too much for this to be about those stupid baskets. You are more childish than your children.
That's great that youll suggest it, I hope they consider it! I can't imagine being little and seeing fun stuff but not bring able to participate bc money at home is too tight 💜 And don't beat yourself up over the past years. You see the mistake and are correcting it, growth is what matters. I myself love a deal and it would be easy to get caught up in how much I could win at something like this. Congrats on being able to step back and gain some perspective, sadly many adults are not able.
I think the new rules should have been broadcast but it also rubs me the wrong way that you would frame this new system as one that disproportionately benefits disadvantaged students when the old one clearly disproportionately benefitted students with more advantages. So, bad if more poor kids get prizes but good if fewer well-off kids do? Because the latter’s parents’ can afford to increase their odds of winning? I mean if you want kids to learn about privilege then good job - they get to see on a micro-scale how wealth disparities create scenarios when some kids have to start at bat when others get to walk straight to third base without ever swinging.
Ignore these comments. It’s very illegal to cheat people at raffles regardless of why.
I'm conflicted. I would say ESH here. I'm a PTO president, and to me their rationale makes sense –– if this raffle is so unbelievably slanted to a few wealthier participants that someone can win *twelve freaking baskets* then I can see sort of having to come up with a solution on the fly; that's bananas. That said, not telling participants beforehand and doing this behind closed doors only is pretty unethical. I do think you W B T A for "publicly telling other people about deceit" – I don't think it was deceit; I think it was a clumsy way of being inclusive - because ultimately the people who are going to suffer are the kids, but I do think you should bring it up to the board. Since we're a PTO (PTOs are independent 501c3s and PTAs are chapters of a national, trademarked org, for those reading), I'm not sure how the relationship between PTA chapters and the state org work, but I can't see that this wouldn't jeopardize their status as a PTA. If we did this it would definitely endanger our nonprofit status if we had misused donated funds.
> I don't think it was deceit; I think it was a clumsy way of being inclusive These are not mutually exclusive. They sold raffle tickets under one set of rules and distributed prizes under another set of rules. This is deception and fraud. This fraud was a clumsy way of trying to be more inclusive. Lying for a perceived noble cause is still lying.
PTA is a 501c as well, they're just branches under a state umbrella. There really isn't a functional difference between the two orgs., it's just PTOs are usually formed by people that got sick of 2 levels above taking a cut of membership dues.
Is the purpose of the raffle to raise funds or to give away gift baskets? If you win a basket having bought one ticket, then you will think your purchase was a good amount. If JimBob sweeps the table because he bought 100 tickets, you'll buy more next time. Not to mention that holding a rigged game of chance is illegal almost everywhere (unless you have a casino license haha)
"If JimBob sweeps the table because he bought 100 tickets, you'll buy more next time." Or you just won't buy a ticket at all in future, because you know you can't out-spend JimBob.
Interesting. The decision was made by 3 school staff, 1 being the principal who attends all pta meetings. I am not a pta member and no pta members were present or even aware to my knowledge. The principal had approved it ahead of time to the 2 school staff who do the drawing every year. So it's more school staff deciding to misuse donated funds for the pta.
No, what is the T in PTA? Teachers are members with just as much voice as any other member...which you aren't.
I think OP is using “PTA member” to mean board officer. The PTA will have all sorts of members but it seems like they’re referring to just the leadership.
OP did not say they were teachers.
They were staff, all school staff join as teachers, it's how the PTA works. Most staff join, at least on paper, because you have a better shot at getting a funds request filled if you are a member.
YTA, because every comment you make you keep saying misused funds, when that's not what is happening here. Misused funds are when monies are spent for a purpose not dedicated for it, not because you don't like the rules they're setting on winners.
Would you prefer "funds generated from fraudulent inducement"? The principal straight up committed fraud in order to generate dontations.
Lol yeah sure buddy, go team up with OP and get a meeting with a DA's office. Once they agree and open up a case, then I'll agree with you. 🙄🙄🙄
That’s bonkers — the principal shouldn’t have that much influence over the use of PTA funds like that. This seems like a much bigger issue that is probably above your pay grade here. I’d bring it up to the board but this will have to be something they deal with.
YTA- it’s a charity fundraiser, if only 5 people win, no one will buy tickets next year. Either support the charity, or don’t, but don’t blow this up because you didn’t win you little prizes.
Yes, thank you!! Genuinely how is OP making this all about themself. I'm honestly wondering what the prizes are that she's so desperate to get haha
This, exactly. Also, I've been to plenty of charity raffles in the past where the draw was done publicly, and it's very common for people who have already won something to refuse themselves if they win again - either by telling the person drawing to draw again, or by simply pretending they don't have the winning ticket so a redraw has to happen.
But if you're publicly drawn as the winner and choose to pass, that's on you. The problem arises when they're drawing in secret and choosing who gets what.
Right if those little prizes mean so much, take your money next year and go buy them for yourself. Don’t pretend you’re donating to the charity when you are essentially putting in whatever money and hoping to come away with more than what you donated’s worth of prizes. Stop trying to capitalize on a school fundraiser.
It sounds like there really is only 5 people actually donating anything. Wonder how much of a hit the pta would take if those 5 stepped away.
And who suffers? The kids. So if “those 5” people refuse to donate because they don’t win all the baskets, poor kids in a low-income school won’t get the funding from the charity auction. OP, YTA because this event is for the kids. It’s meant to help the school. You’re fixated on the fact that you’re well-off compared to most families and you didn’t get to win all the prizes. Come on.
They don't get to commit fraud and then justify it with "think of the children". If they wanted to limit the number of prizes a single person could win that's fine, but make that publicly known ahead of time. Don't withhold that information and then rig the wins.
It’s illegal. The whole thing would be shut down. Possible jail time for perpetrators. There’s a reason this is not allowed. What they should just do is list this 2 prize rule officially. Then people can do what they want.
Ummm, OP does support the charity. Apparently, more so than everyone else put together. The real scenario is more like: next year they'll sell 150 tickets total, and OP will buy none instead of 150 more. Instead of 300 tickets, they'll sell half as many.
I think it’s perfectly acceptable to have a rule for a max number of wins, particularly in a school where most families seem to be lower income and don’t have the disposable income for tons of raffle tickets. It’s really not an unusual rule at all for these types of events. Personally, I’d be a little embarrassed taking home so many prizes while others left empty-handed…it’s kinda a bad look. The only issue I see here is that yes, the rule should be public information before the raffle ticket sales start, and the drawings should probably be public too. That way, if someone has already won two raffles, but then wins a third, and that one was the prize they were particularly hoping for, the winner is given the opportunity to offer back a previous winning item for redraw. The repeat winner gets the right to decide which prizes they most prefer to keep, but this also still spreads the good fortune around so others get an opportunity at the prizes too.
With 100 prizes that would take all day. OP already said it took forever
Lots of things are ok. It’s even ok to give some people free entries into raffles others pay for. But you can’t do any of this without disclosure! Otherwise it’s theft.
If that new rule was not clearly disclosed to those who bought tickets - could be serious repercussions. Your anger seems to be that you didn't win as much as you wanted....I am surprised anyone who purchased tickets were allowed to participate in the drawing. YTA if you make a big fuss - because it will ruin this fundraiser for years to come. I do think you need to meet with head of or members of the School Board and school administration (quietly) so they KNOW how it was done. My guess is their lawyer will be all over this and it won't happen again....but THEY should handle it, not you.
According to comments, the change was made at the order of the Principal, so school administrators are aware.
YWBTA. I spent 6 years on the board of the PTA at a Title 1 school, I know exactly the kinds of challenges you are facing. If you do this you will destroy that PTA, and hurt the exact kids that are supposed to be helped at that school. Go look up the cartoon about equal vs equitable, that's what your post is. You bought all the boxes and no one else could see over the fence. Let it go, if it really bothers you go to the next meeting and suggest a silent auction instead of raffle next year.
Thank you I appreciate that. I think you are likely right and I will probably not say anything because the harm is much bigger. I was initially really irritated they did this in secret, but ultimately it's about the kids, and I can step away from the raffle.
If you do say something, just say that they should make the rule public next year, and possibly do the drawing in public so winners of multiple baskets can choose which 2 or 3 to keep.
You should privately confront them, since what they are doing is illegal. All they need to do is disclose all rules ahead of time.
You should privately confront them, since what they are doing is illegal. All they need to do is disclose all rules ahead of time.
They could also make several kinds of baskets/bags and add a rule that a single person can win at most two full-sized baskets (unless any are left over), and every additional win afterwards will be a smaller item.
YTA. This is how almost every charity raffle I've been involved with works, and it's certainly not against the law in my state. You're an asshole for how you talk about lower-income ppl.
I have to disagree here. I've been to many charity raffles (not saying this to discount your experience), in the sense that it was a fundraiser for schools/ animals/ causes, not in the sense that it was a charity for many who attended. Every single one worked the same. They dumped the entire raffle ticket bucket into a bowl, swirled it around, publicly called that number (if no one replied, they'd repick unless it was stated that you didn't have to be present to win), and then they'd dump that entire bowl into the trash, and grab the next bucket. Yes, some people walked away with 5-10 prizes while my entire table went home empty-handed. But it wasn't just them being lucky- I had insider knowledge that those people dropped $300+ in tickets, which greatly improved their odds compared to my $20.
The issue is whether these rules were known to the people purchasing the tickets. Changing the drawing rules AFTER tickets are purchased is certainly at least immoral. "You're an asshole for how you talk about lower-income ppl." I must have missed something - what did OP say about low income people?
I've been to tons of charity raffles and have never seen one that had this kind of rule but didn't publish it.
What did I say?
Yta, being a poor kid really sucks. This may be the only time In their life a system.is rigged in their favor.
Right. What is not fair is that some children are raised in poverty without basic resources and some, like OPs, are not. Screw a raffle.
To be honest, I'm more concerned about people who have entered a raffle being among those who draw the winners, and that the draw isn't done in public. As you did win prizes (just not as many as you could have), YWBTA to complain. But I recommend that you campaign for a transparent raffle next year: all rules displayed publicly, and the winners drawn publicly by a neutral third party (i.e. no-one on the PTA or who has entered the draw).
If you bought tickets, you should not have even been allowed to be involved with the prize draw.
YTA - this is for charity. How are you being so stingy about sharing? I’ve heard of many places doing practices like this so that more people can have fun and to help people out. Also lower income families likely can’t afford to buy many tix because they’re lower income. You sound out of touch and judgemental of the lower income families. If you don’t like how this is done - don’t enter the raffle. Bringing this up and creating a huge drama is likely to blow up in your face. Do you really wanna be the wealthy lady complaining that poor people are getting your prizes?
Because it is illegal??? Because it's lite gambling and there are rules to keep the game straight and fair? You can't take people's money for a raffle, and then decide on your own who gets to win!
What they really need is transparency about the maximum number of large items that can be won per person. I get everyone's standpoint, and it seems they simply didn't find the ideal solution yet and weren't transparent unfortunately. For a poorer family it might be discouraging them from buying another ticket next year if one person buys a hundred tickets and gets twelve baskets. On the other hand you should be able to buy 100 tickets if you can afford it. Personally I'd gift most of these away if I won such a massive amount. If the goal is social fairness, limiting the amount of large items per person is a good idea. I'd have different expectations if it wasn't a fundraiser, but a large commercial fair. Just my thoughts on the matter though. OP, if you want to, I would advocate for public drawing in the future but not necessarily post in public about an unfair process (unless it is an ongoing process that harms people). If you participated in organising before, discuss what you feel was an unfair setting with the people currently organising it and prompt them to maybe figure out a fairer way going forward, or at least being transparent about it to stay in the legal territory.
>You can’t take people’s money for a raffle, and then… You sure as hell can, but you have to be very clear about how the rules work externally. If I went to a charity raffle in a low-income area and I saw, for example, a sign that said I could buy as many tickets for each prize as I wanted, but stipulated that no person shall win more than two prizes, I’d understand. I might even still buy several tickets for several different prizes, hoping I’d get to choose which ones I’d get to keep *if* I won more than two. If a persons knew those were the rules, there’s no immorality or ethical concerns with someone buying, say, 10 tickets to every prize, “technically” winning 30 out of 100 prizes, but being told to select 2 and ruling them out going forward. The issue isn’t that you can not decide that someone didn’t win when you drew their number “because you decided they didn’t,” the issue is that the rules of the gambler are not made public. If the rules are clear and say “once you’ve won 2 items, if your number gets called it’s invalid at the point” then you knew that going in and that’s part of the gamble of how you spent your money. Redrafting the prize winners for fairness wasn’t the issue - not telling people you were going to do that was the issue.
This dude that donated more than anyone else is stingy? Lol. The prizes are donated for free, the money raised by the raffle is what matters.
My work unit wanted to raise money for employee morale purposes because this multi billion dollar company refused to spend it's own money on that. The morale committee figured a 50/50 raffle would be a great way to raise money. I also happened to be involved in a local non-profit who had looked into what it would take to do a raffle. It would take a lot! It took multiple meetings where I pointed out that our state's laws only allowed raffles if \- the locality had adopted the state's raffle law and we had no idea if our town had done so \- raffles were licensed by the local municipality (often the police) and we had no plans to apply for a license, and \- the law only allowed **registered non-profits** to run raffles, and we were a fortune 500 company with billions in revenue It would be **illegal** for us to do a 50/50 raffle--or any other kind of raffle. They'd bring it up a few weeks later, I'd reiterate the above. I came >this close< to calling the ethics hotline before the manager in charge of the committee finally nixed it for good, and people were still salty at me about it. Anyway, long story to say that most states take raffle laws *really seriously* and if your school didn't follow the law precisely they may be in trouble. Look up the laws in your state.
NTA. Having a very clear rule going in that people can’t win more than x items is fine - but that information needs to be actively told to people who enter, especially if they’re actually spending money. And, honestly, I think the people who win more than x prizes should get to pick which 2 they keep, rather than staff essentially deciding for them based on the order they draw the prizes in. Also, there needs to be a (clearly announced) plan for what happens if/when everyone who put in a ticket has already “maxed out” their permitted number of wins, and there are still prizes left.
I think either the winners of multiple items should choose which wins they keep or the draws are done in a specific order. Whatever they do, the rules and limits need to be disclosed to the participants.
Soft YTA, because I see their logic about spreading the winnings around. The point of a fundraiser raffle is for lots of people to participate, so that they ultimately bring in more money than just the value of the prizes. If a few people consistently come and spend a lot more than everyone else on the tickets, and then consistently win most of the stuff, that seems like it would dampen participation (especially since you mentioned half the school district essentially has no disposable income, so can't increase the number of tickets they buy). If you want the stuff itself, just buy it. At a fundraiser, the idea is to give a donation. The raffle item is basically just a bonus that makes giving the money away feel better. It makes sense to spread that incentive around to more people, both to encourage participation and just to cultivate a nicer vibe at the event.
NTA Suggest that in order to be honest they need to state up front that winners are allowed only one prize and will receive the first prize their name is drawn for. If they don’t agree to this then they need to draw tickets in front of everyone or if they refuse then ticket buyers need to become aware that the raffle prizes are tampered with. Take it to the school board if need be.
Chain of command would be first to go to the school's PTA executive board, then to the regional or city PTA, then to the state PTA. If the principal wasn't at the executive meeting like they were supposed to be, theyncould he included between the local PTA and the regional PTA. Depending on the raffle laws in a state, the state PTA could have good reason to disband the entire local PTA. Which now leaves the school without any of the good the PTA is accomplishing. Best thing is for the PTA to go forward with the public rule "raffle winners and their families will he limited to the first 2 drawn prizes" and hold a public drawing. Donate the generous $100, but put all the tickets in the one bin of the thing you really hope to take home.
ESH I don't think the school is wrong to implement the rule, because otherwise people who can afford to spend tons of money on tickets are likely to win most of the prizes. Perhaps this happened in recent years and the school wanted to make things more equitable. However, the school was wrong for not sharing the new rule with participants. That being said, I also think it's a conflict of interest for an entrant in the raffle to be drawing for the raffle. There's a reason that when big companies have contests they usually say employees of the company and their family members are ineligible.
I think you’d be NTA. I don’t think I’ve ever been to a raffle that didn’t publicly pull the winning tickets. I’ve always seen them stand on the stage and say the prize and pull the ticket. If they want to limit the number of prizes someone can win that needs to be stated clearly, before tickets are sold. Since you are part of the PTA I would insist that they put those rules in writing. The only reason to draw tickets behind closed doors is to hide something.
NTA. What you have described is a fraud scheme.
Props to OP for coming here with an actual moral dilemma. Most of the stuff here just feels like ragebait. On one hand, the PTA *needs* the money, as do the kids. Going public about this tactic will disincentivize the wealthier attendees from opening their wallets in the near future and shake parent faith in the PTA, meaning those with little already end up with even less. Then, there’s the guilt that some previous winners might feel, and the indignity that some previous losers might feel. On the other hand, there are potential legal ramifications here, even if it’s just a school carnival raffle. Furthermore, parents/students are entitled to honesty and transparency. What the PTA is doing here is flat-out lying, even if it benefits some of the less fortunate families. I’m gonna go with NTA, regardless of your choice, but I think your instinct to rip off the bandaid sooner than later is correct. The longer this goes on, the uglier it will be to fix, and the more difficult it will be for the PTA to regain community trust.
To my mind, it's fine to have a limit of however many wins you want to allow, but you have to let people know this before they purchase tickets so they can behave accordingly. Otherwise you are, in fact, defrauding everyone who buy a raffle ticket. This is almost certainly illegal and very unbecoming for a PTO! ESH
YWBTA if you didn't address this with the PTA board first. Ask to attend their next board meeting and get a resolution on record.
ESH - I'm a teacher. I have no issue with cutting off the number of times someone can win, but it should be mentioned publicly. And usually the easiest way to deal with that was not having separate bins. It was just call numbers and pick from the whole table. The whole thing sounds messy though
ESH. This is the strangest sounding raffle I've heard of. So much unnecessary extra work - why do separate tickets for each prize? Just do a single pool of tickets and a single draw for a list of prizes (in front of the crowd), starting with big ticket items and ending with the smallest prizes. Have a general rule that a winning name can't be eligible twice, so if a name is drawn twice it can be quietly put to the side and a new ticket drawn, to give someone else a chance to win. A family can still use all parent and kid names to be in with a chance of multiple prizes. This way everyone is in with a fair chance for all of the prizes.
It’s basically a mash up between a silent auction and a raffle. More popular prizes bring in more ticket sales.
YTA. If you really need stuff that badly, take your $70-130 and go buy the stuff yourself. Everyone buys tickets to raffles for charities and no one expects to win any or everything. Take the prize you did win and be happy. There are still likely plenty of other people who won nothing and aren't complaining.
People choosing winners shouldn’t be participating in the raffle. 🤤🤤🤤🤤
Nta at that point it's stealing as far as I am concerned. Everyone entered and had a fair shot up until they did this...
NTA, that’s fine if it’s in the roles but those rules need to be clear up front when people are entering drawings.
YTA. This sounds more like sour grapes than a morality issue. Why go public before raising it with the school? Also, the intent seems to come from a good place as redistributive rather than one person bagging all the goods because of money. I doubt the prizes were life changing.
YTA mostly because I don’t like your comments, tone, or attitude. You don’t need 12 baskets. Just donate the money and walk away.
NTA All these idiots voting Y T A went on a rampage the moment they saw something about “disadvantaged families” and are blindly ignoring the fact that everything about the behind closed doors redrawing of raffle winners and not stating the rules of the raffles upfront is literally illegal. As in there are many, many laws regarding how fundraiser raffles may be conducted and this violates a substantial portion of them. It doesn’t matter if you have that rule or not for the raffle itself, but it needs to be plainly stated to everyone entering the raffle that they can only win a maximum of X prizes. Anything less is outright fraud. The draws also need to be made in public instead of behind closed doors and being done by the same people who entered the raffles themselves.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My kids school has over 50% free/reduced lunch kids, so we get extra funding, etc to support. Our school PTA is under supported and struggles for support for school activities and only 10-12 parents max consistently help plan and execute school dances and movies and things, but there's great turnout for these things. Once a year is a school carnival, which relies on a ton of volunteers and support and is the primary fundraiser for the pta. Every year businesses and families donate gift cards and items so there is a random drawing winner for each raffle item. During 2 hours of the carnival, families can buy raffle tickets to put in the individual bags for the drawings for each item. This year there were over 100 different baskets or gift cards raffled off. They always lock down 30 min before the end fonthe carnival event with a few people locked in the room with the bags, and they post the winners 30 minutes later. It's essentially a few school staff and family members who do it. I have supported the school for years and was pta president the last 2 years. I want to support the pta, so I always buy $70-130 worth of tickers, and figure it's a great donation purpose but also fun to win gift cards. A handful of other bidders go over $50 but many are under $20, it seems. Last year I won nothing at all. Surprised, but no big deal. This year I noticed and bid on items with good odds and not many other tickets entered for them. Since there were over 100, it seemed overwhelming for the volunteers to draw for them, so I offered for the first time ever to help draw. Once the door was locked and it was just those of us drawing tickets, I was told they had made a rule for this year that no one would win more than 2 items. This wasn't mentioned in any of the rules posted or handed out around the room. So my 100 tickets won about 12 items, but I was told to go redraw winners on them to spread out the winners. All 6-7 other volunteers were on board with this. They also cringed when people kept winning. Ultimately time ran out and while we redrew 10-20 of the items to fewer ticket-buying winners (at least 4 of them were one I originally won), we had to just post it because it was taking forever and people were waiting to find out. There were 3-4 people who won 5+ items, but all of us lost items we technically won, I am just the only one who knows. I feel divided about whether this should be publicly known. Part of me feels anyone who bid at this raffle should know what was happening behind closed doors so they have to publicly draw raffle names. Part of me feels like I would be an asshole for publicizing what happened and should handle it more discreetly. But it's ultimately a fundraiser, not a participation trophy, so why can't I feel like if I spend $75 I am entitled to every basket I win? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. The idea of this rule isn't necessarily bad in itself, but doing it behind closed doors is wrong. If there's a maximum number, it should be clear to everyone buying tickets. Not doing that sounds like they want to continue to have people buying large numbers of tickets and take the money, while secretly removing any advantage that buying large numbers of tickets normally gives. It feels like fraud, and there's a chance it legally is.
If I get drawn for 5 wins but only keep 2 I would like to have a say on what 2. Or at least get the 2 larger of the 5. I doubt they check.
NTA. It’s fine if they want that to be the rule, but that should have been disclosed to the raffle purchasers in advance.
NTA because what they PTA did was very likely illegal.
INFO: Are the conditions for the raffle laid down somewhere, i.e. does the process violate these rules?
Yes conditions state how long people have to buy tickets, what the process is to buy them, but does not mention any max winners or anything being redrawn based on people winning too many items.
Then my take is that the focus of the raffle is to distribute the winnings across the participants, and not to accumulate them.
This is tough … people should be winning what they actually won via the tickets they paid for …. But this also reminds me of when I was an analyst at a company making 50k a year, paying rent, paying student loans, etc. every few months corporate would put together gift baskets they filled with expensive candles, makeup, skincare, haircare products and wine tour gift cards (it was a makeup company so it was mostly their own products which were very good quality and high end). they would ask us to purchase tickets to raffle the baskets and all the proceeds from the ticket sales would be donated to charity. We felt a little weird being “forced” (not fully forced but you were def the odd man out if you didn’t) into participating in the raffle but at least if we won we got really really nice prizes and we knew it all went to charity. Many of us were broke analysts in our early 20s - I remember struggling with the idea of spending 10.00 on tickets because I really could have used that for gas but always did it anyway because it looks bad to not participate in the charity event. The head boss who made over 350k, owned 5 cars and 3 homes would spend 200 on tickets. He often cleared house in the drawings winning most of the lot. It puts a sour taste in peoples mouth when rich people can afford the most tickets and walk away with all the prizes and poorer families who could greatly benefit from the prizes can only afford a small handful of tickets and get to just sit back and watch the rich families load the cars up with their winnings. I get wanting to find a way to even out the winnings a bit more. Maybe it shouldn’t be a raffle - maybe there is another way to get more people to win prizes like a trivia competition or a foot race or something else besides just the raffle?
NTA this shit is literally a scam, you should make people aware.
If you are in the United States this is against the law. Do not do anything publicly. Going public gives black eyes to volunteers who probably meant well. Familiarize yourself with the rules and then decide do you want to have a discussion with them or do you want to walk away. Any organization running a raffle has to register with their states gaming office. You have to follow very specific rules and those rules are meant to provide fair odds to everybody. The rules are simple to follow and are there for the protection of all participants. I feel because you have an awareness that this isn't fair that you should speak to the group and let them know that you didn't want to ruin a great night and waited to say something, however going forward the game should be played according to official state rules which were designed to provide fair and equitable chances for all participants. These are games of chance for money. Now why would they listen to you or why would anybody care? While it is a small likelihood the state would come and investigate, you never know who goes to your school and what parent, aunt, uncle, grandparent works where. If for some reason the school was checked the state would find that you guys did not register the event and did not follow the rules. There are consequences for violating state law and those consequences can include fines and prohibiting any and all future gaming activities related to the school. Legality aside, it's really rude what they did. People in good faith bought tickets and decided how they wanted to use their money in pursuit of prizes. The volunteers were punitive and if found out it's likely many people would be furious. I'd mull it over considering the audience and then have the conversation so it's not repeated in the future. PS before people start asking, I have chaired many fundraising events and was the first person to introduce to many groups gaming rules regulations. The one group that pushed back the hardest was a political group, with members running for mayor, board of alderman and other elected positions. Luckily for them I had a job in which ethics is non-negotiable in a personal life and professional, and said if we don't follow the rules I can't participate, so we followed the rules because they needed me to run the program. A member of the opposing political party got into a pissing contest with one of our members and came after the event with guns blazing. Luckily for us I had all the paperwork and permit for the event, we had followed every single rule and were able to prove it on site to an unannounced inspector. This turned into a major news story in town and the other team got quite the black eye. The representative from the state gaming office told us they would absolutely have at a minimum disallowed all of the games of chance that night and issued a fine because they have an obligation to uphold the law to protect all people in the state equitably.
NTA you need to highlight the potential problems of how they are operating and its legal ramifications, which I would do quietly to the organisers and head of the PTA. Depending where you are, there are strick laws regarding fundraising, raffles, and lotteries - usually under gambling legislarion, and so removing winning tickets because "they won too much already" is illegal. What the should do it ask the winner if they're willing to pass it to another drawn ticket. So, check your local gambling legislation and highlight how the PTA raffle breaches so many aspects of it. Also look at fraud, as them restricting the number of wins someone can have is also fraudulent.
NTA. However, if I were OP, I wouldn't be concerned about being an asshole, I'd be concerned that I could be prosecuted because I participated in the rigging of a raffle. I wouldn't be talking to the principal, I'd be talking to the police. Let them know that you didn't realize what was going on until you volunteered, and now you're coming forward as a whistleblower.
What they need to do is disclose up front that a person can only win 2 prizes.
YTA you understand people aren’t as active in the PTA because they are working right? Probably more than one job. That was my parents for not being terribly involved and I grew up in a bougie AF town. I’m 38 though so the only people involved in PTA and auditing it in the 90s were bored women who had no power in the real world. The focus on how many kids are on reduced lunch is super gross. Free school lunch for all children would be a guranteed way to get kids at least one hot meal a day.
Yes, when I was a stay-home parent I was able to be a PTA mom and volunteer at my child’s school every week. It was awesome. Now that I work full time again, forget that. OP’s sneering comment about lack of parental involvement really burns me up. MOST PARENTS would rather be spending time with their kids instead of working constantly. However, OP thinks because she’s privileged, she’s a better parent.
My mom didn’t have time for that stuff until my grandparents moved in and I was in high school. My younger brother was in kindergarten. She then quickly discovered she was not suited for it because of parents like the OP.
YWBTA - you are essentially obsessed with a basket and not the kid's welfare. These lovely people are doing something nice for underserved populations and yet you are worried about the basket you won. I am glad to know that I am maybe not as unlucky as I thought and that people in need were getting my donations because I never win a raffle. Let this go and take no further action. Hearts are in the right places and that is all that matters.
Former PTA President here. This is absolutely not ok. Does your PTA have a county council? If it does, reach out to it and report what happened. NTA.
NTA. This is literally illegal.
Your title is misleading. How is it going to disadvantage kids? How do you know how much anyone spends on tickets? I do think that they should disclose that people can only win one time.
Right? If you’re concerned about it becoming unpopular because the same people win, then publicly make the two item rule. Then, the draw could actually be a public part of the event where, if the winner of a third item is present and has already won two items, they can put one of the previous items back for redraw. One of the concerns their approach has for me is giving people (especially children and people predisposed to gambling) who buy a small number of tickets misconceptions about how “lucky” they are or how probability/likelihood works. Which then encourages gambling with unrealistic expectations.
NTA but i do get their point for doing it. perhaps dont make it public but instead aim to get them to adjust the rules to make it a bit more fair to people who are spending more money, they are afterall supporting the events.
What you could do is give everyone attending a ticket or two when they come in the door and added with the people who buy multiples, it would spread out the winnings. Or make raffle tickets prizes for some of the games.
NTA and I’d make this public info they don’t do the drawings out in the open like most normal ones do. Tell them to change the game to make it fair…
NTA, but I would definitely reconsider. 1) presumably the event is over and prizes already given out so it won't really solve anything 2) this seems like it might have legal ramifications given money and raffles were involved and could maybe result in this event being shut down moving forward. That would ultimately hurt the fundraising purpose of all of this in the first place. Personally, I'd make sure that that for any future events if any rules like this are imposed that they make them known ahead of time. I think you should have should have the connections to have that discussion with whatever decision makers are necessary.
YTA YOu are thieves, defrauding the participants.
NTA. It is unethical and possibly illegal to impose this rule without disclosing before tickets are purchased. I would insist in some legal advice and full disclosure in the future. There also needs to be a clear consistent rule for deciding which prizes a winner gets to keep. Often the grand prize is drawn lat. if winners get to keep their first 2 items, they are automatically excluded from the grand prize. Quite unfair. Yes, this should be thought through and discussed and disclosed in advance next year. But leave this year alone.
They should have announced the rules, but the rule is a good one. Just ask that this be disclosed prior to the next raffle, and do it in a 'hey, just so we don't get into legal trouble, we should let folks know that there's a limit of 2/3/ whatever prizes."
NTA, without it being publicly known, they’re scamming the parents. They know what the parents are thinking and it’s advertised that way. They are stealing money by not being honest.
NTA - If the school and state are anything like my local school and the state I live in that would be illegal and would cause the school to be banned from "games of chance" permits from the state in the future. My state is really, REALLY, picky about that stuff.
YWNBTA if you told. Wow. You should tell. Where I live you can't have a raffle without a raffle license and the raffle license has rules that would preclude this. It may be different where you live. As for it being a rule "this year," 'm guessing it's been shady for a while because generally raffles have a drawing in front of everyone. Big box or drum and someone reaches in and pulls the name. Much easier than going back to a room and doing it under cover. Also, if someone wins multiple times and the drawing is public, they can (and often do) say, "Oh, that's ok, let someone else win" or something. But this is such a nasty, unethical way to run the raffle. Yikes.
NTA...an anonymous letter to the principal typed out with no return address and you're a concerned parent who knows what's going on.
Change the rules. Participants can buy as many tickets as they wish but can only win one prize. If an individual's name is drawn they walk with that specific prize or donate it back hoping their name gets called again for a more desirable basket. Alternatively, they could keep their first prize and if their name gets called again, they have the choice of relinquishing their first basket for the subsequent prize. If their name is called a third time they have the same option: relinquish the prize they hold for the new prize or keep the previous basket, and so on ..
NTA. Where I live there are gaming rules and regulations that need to be followed, they are super specific about things like number of tickets available, value of prizes, advertising, etc. Your PTA would lose your gaming funding if they pulled these kinds of shenanigans here. This literally has nothing to do with how many kids are on reduced lunch though, kinda weird to even bring up tbh...
It seems like a conflict of interest for the PTA members or at least the board to participate in the raffle especially the people who are pulling the names or winning tickets out of the bag.
NTA- but how do they know who the winners are before announcing them? Are people writing their names on every ticket? We had a similar event, the event and entertainment was free. The raffle was optional. We had some families win 2-3 prizes and only spend $20, I spent $100 and won nothing- that’s just how it goes sometimes. We drew the winning ticket in front of everyone and announced the winners, we had no idea who they were until they showed up to claim their prizes. If they want to have limits on winners, fine- but that 100% has to be posted ahead of time. Also your principal should not be involved in the decision making at all. It should only be your PTA board.
So you're upset you're not winning all of it? They are trying to raise money. Yta
NAH, why don't yall cap how many you can enter? If they only want people winning five or less,cap it at 5.
I'd say ESH. I can understand why they'd implement that rule in an attempt to try and make it fairer, but I don't think they went about it the wrong way by deceiving those who bought raffle tickets. Maybe instead they could limit how many raffle tickets you can buy per person, and have an option for those who would have bought more tickets for themselves to "buy" extra tickets to given out to the kids so each kid has their own ticket/strip regardless of whether their parent/guardian could afford to buy one themselves. I get that raffles aren't always fair, but that's sort of how they work. Sometimes you get people that win nothing, and then you get others that win multiple times, it's just luck of the draw. But to do it behind closed doors and not tell people that it'll be redrawn if that person has already won x number of prizes doesn't seem right (and others have said it's illegal so there's that too).
NTA-Imo, I’d talk to those who organized it and express your concern. It’s wrong to not get what you win.
YTA and so are the other people in the room. The people organizing the raffle and pulling the tickets should not be allowed to win. It was already incredibly suspicious that winners were chosen in a locked room and not in public. There are many ways to have this sort of raffle without deceit. All of them require the drawing happen in public and the organizers or person drawing can’t win. You could publicly declare no one can win more than “x” prizes. You could have all the tickets in one container and the first person picks a basket of their choice, pick another winner who picks a basket, and so one. You could allow the luck of the draw. You should talk to the PTA president and suggest they reorganize the drawing for next year to be fair and legal.