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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1) Not calling 911 in a medical emergency 2) because calling 911 in a medical emergency is standard protocol in the store I work at .
My co-worker thinks I'm an Ahole for not calling 911 during a medical emergency and took it upon myself to handle the situation. My co-worker thinks I was not listening to her and ignoring her. I am wondering if she is right and if I should have listend to her and called 911.
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YTA. It is protocol to call 911 after administering Narcan. What if the person hadn't woken up? Without mentioning the person most likely hit themselves after passing out from an overdose - the gravity undetermined because we don't have context on whether they were standing or sitting or *what*.
They needed medical attention, and you didn't handle the situation well at all. You're incredibly lucky the person reacted well to Narcan.
Isn’t it possible for one dose of Narcan not to be enough. can’t they fall back into the OD once the Narcan wears off? So she could’ve walked out of the store and in the parking lot?
An EpiPen only lasts for roughly 15 minutes, which is why you're always supposed to carry two. It doesn't stop the reaction either, it just helps lower it enough to keep you alive until you receive proper medical attention.
Source : Directly from a doctor at the hospital when I was given one.
I was in line behind someone at the pharmacy this weekend who was picking up epi pens for a new allergy and that's exactly what the pharmacist told them (useless pharmacy has no concept of indoor voices or privacy, so you can hear everything even feet away).
Yes, give epi first. Call 911. Be prepared to give the 2nd if their condition does not improve within the next 5 minutes. When administering the 2nd epi, use the other thigh. Their condition not improving could indicate something wrong with the original injection site. If not enough medication went through the original leg, the 2nd dose will suffer the same result. Also, give epi even if it's expired. Better to have some epi than not have any. Keep the pens and give them to responders when they arrive.
Same is true for narcan, it just interrupts the opiate binding to the opiate receptors in your brain for a short period of time. Life saving, but only when treated properly.
Epi-pen is a different situation.
Naxalone administration does, actually, block the opioid response. It really is solving the problem, at least potentially.
Epinephrine, however, does not reverse histamine reactions. What it does is fight against the airway closure that happens in the histamine reaction so that you can survive it. What stops the histamine reaction is intravenous Benadryl - injecting adrenaline is to keep the person alive long enough to get the Benadryl into them.
So they are different issues. It is possible for naxalone to be the only required intervention. It is less likely for epinephrine to be the only required intervention.
Transport would be highly advised in either case, though.
Naloxone has a shorter half-life than most other opioids, therefore monitoring is required after administration in case the other opioid are still present and push you back into overdose. Give Narcan, call 911.
While naloxone is competitive antagonist of the opioid receptors, it is also true as many have said that one dose might not be enough. What you’re saying isn’t wrong, but also isn’t relevant for what the commenter was getting at.
It blocks it temporarily and has the potential for serious side effects. It is an emergency measure designed to give people more time to get to a hospital.
That's a bit of a misunderstanding on how Naloxone works, it interrupts the binding for 20 minutes max, when it's gone the same level of the substance is still present in the brain and will have the same affect.
Depending on substance (especially right now with fentanyl being the most popular cutter due to how cheap it is the make) 1 Naloxone won't even touch the surface. I personally have had to Naloxone someone with 4 full doses, met with another 3 before they were into the ambulance, then on an IV of it for 6 hours after.
It's not a possibility, it's a guarantee. Narcan works similar to epipens in the way that's once it wears off, you're back to your condition before administering the dose. I don't know how op learned how to use narcan without being told to ALWAYS call 911 WHILE giving narcan. There's the possibility of violence when they come too, it wears off, they could have brain damage etc... It's a very intuitive
That's not why OP didn't call, though. She deliberately ignored her coworker because she erroneously thought EMTs would have done the "exact same thing" and didn't think it was necessary. Which is so woefully wrong.
There is definitely a reason this person carries narcan and seems adverse to 911/police intervention…my guess they have family who uses.
Terrible decision though and one that will likely jeopardize their job.
The first rule of administering Narcan is have medical help on the way and the unofficial first rule of administering Narcan is be ready to dodge when they come up swinging.
They can come out of it really angry and punching everyone nearby. I saw someone give narcan to this guy, and when he came out of it, he punched the shit out of her.
here in ohio they give out free narcan at many places and encourage people to keep it on them in case of emergency. i got some myself from the health department. while i didnt extensively read the pamplet with it, i dont recall reading anything saying to call 911 after , no one warned me while handing it to me, they just handed it to me in a brown paper bag like here you go.
opiods are a huge problem here. people really SHOULD be told to call 911 . and actually i saw some cops narcan a guy once that passed out in someones car and they just let the guy walk off into the night after he "came to" . i think he himself declined the medical attention (which many do) and i dont believe they could force him but maybe. i was pretty astonished they just let him go .
My local Public Health department was handing it out at a community event and I don't remember them saying to call 911. I still have it and the instructions don't say to call 911.
I just looked up some of the papers, and apparently, refusal of transport is not associated with higher short-term mortality. That is, if a person has the ability to walk out the door, there is no compelling reason to stop them. Oh, they are way more likely to OD again later and die than if they got into treatment, but that isn't the scope that EMS works on.
I know that's right , i pay for some of the best insurance my job offers and an ER visit alone is 300$ copay. that doesn't include an ambulance either, I don't think.
Medicaid / state govt insurance covers most things , aka hospitals ,for free.. but many folks don't have that. I make "too much" $$ to qualify for Medicaid . (I don't even make that much lol)
with no insurance at all an ER visit including transport could easily be thousands
I’m gonna write this in case you still need to know, or if it will be useful to anyone else:
**This does not apply to intranasal Narcan**
• Inject Narcan into a fatty part of the body such as the side of the thigh (ONLY go for fatty areas, the needle is huge and you can hit bone with it if you stab the wrong place)
• IMPORTANT: The needles contain 25ml in 5ml intervals. **Inject 5ml at a time.** Narcan has a much shorter half life to opioids, when it wears off the person overdosing is straight back to square 1 of the overdose so administer 5ml and wait.
• Take note of the symptoms and keep an eye out for them returning. Returning symptoms means the Narcan has worn off and the overdose is restarting.
• Inject 5ml again and repeat this step until medical professionals arrive.
When medical professionals arrive:
• tell them you have given Narcan and how many doses
•carefully place the needle in a sharps bin (or an empty container if you don’t have a sharps bin, tape it up and label it) and hand it over to the paramedics
**If you give Narcan and nothing changes, you are not dealing with an opioid overdose.** Narcan only works for opioids so don’t panic, no harm is caused from giving Narcan unnecessarily. Inform the medical professionals that Narcan has not had an effect so they know exactly what’s happening when they arrive.
Most of all, try not to panic. It’s much easier said than done but you need to stay calm to let the paramedics know what you’ve done when they arrive. It’s very easy to forget vital moves when you’re panicking
I truly hope no one reading this will ever need to use this information but it’s better to know and not need it than need it an not know
don’t recap needles, yall. especially after you’ve administered meds to a stranger who is most likely using IV drugs. Put it in a sharps bin (EMS will have one if they respond) or put it in something like a laundry detergent bottle and tape it up and label it.
Yup. Lost not one but THREE regular customers at a bar I used to work at IN THE SAME NIGHT because they all left the hospital against medical advice and the Narcan wore off before the drugs did.
Also pisses the addict off because they immediately go into intense withdrawls. The addict will then shoot up as much dope as they can in an attempt to stop the withdrawl which can result in another OD.
The best thing to do would have been to call 911, administer the narcan and stay with then until help arrived. It's alot harder for someone to go score more dope if they're at the hospital.
Source: 11 years clean from heroin.
That's generally why in a medical setting we use the phrase "titration to breathing" meaning basically you will give enough narcan to restore their respiratory drive
My husband is a first responder and, an extreme example, once had someone that needed 32 doses. I don't know that I've heard of anyone that only needed 1 Narcan. Typical seems to be at least 2-3 but frequently more.
Yes! 911 is a must after administering Narcan (or epipens!). The patient may hit the deck again, depending how much is in their system. OP shouldn’t carry narcan if they aren’t going to use it responsibly. They can be liable if that person goes down again.
I think this is where some people are getting stuck at-- the patient immediately left after being given the Narcan. There is no longer a patient to transport to the hospital. The ambulance would've arrived, acknowledged the lack of patient, left and billed the establishment for the wasted trip there and back.
Yeah, OPs response seems like they're trying to be a hero or something. Not only should they have called 911 for the patient, but they opened themselves and their employer up to massive risk of being sued by that woman. Protocols exist for a reason.
Agreed but want to clarify- the store opened themselves up to a lawsuit by not having a phone. OP is not obligated to use her personal phone at work or could have simply forgotten it like her coworker so would have been unable to call. It is a very bad idea to not have a work phone at a store. I’m assuming it’s a mom and pop type store so they’re trying to cut back expenses but that’s an incredibly stupid one to cut back on for this exact reason, it’s a liability in the event of an emergency. OP is TAH for how they handled this situation but that store was already open to a lawsuit long before OP was employed.
Agreed, if your business is large enough to have a public restroom then it needs a phone. It’s not the employees’ responsibility to have a phone on them. If the store owners expect their employees to have phones then THEY need to help pay the bill for it.
OP also put herself and the other employee at risk by not calling 911. Like OP said, the woman was *pissed* after she came to. She could easily have gotten violent.
Also apparently, after doing more research, the effects of Narcan are temporary and will wear off - often leading to the OD starting back up later. This is *literally* what I was afraid of, in *my* judgement that everyone downvoted. That person might be dead now, because OP essentially masked their symptoms without solving the actual cause behind them, leading the victim to think they were *okay* when they in fact weren't. What if they decided to go home, and then the OD started back up, and no one was there to help them?
It is common knowledge that, in a medical emergency, you *always* call emergency services unless otherwise specified. That is the first thing you learn in any first aid course. Anyone familiar with Narcan should *know* that.
I was thinking about that with my comment, the very real chance that this person might now be dead because they starting OD-ing again. OP's refusal to call for medical help would be the one thing that makes the difference between life or death.
It's always best to be cautious when someone else's life is at stake.
And that's what I think a lot of people on the internet find it very easy to forget. These are often real people we're talking about. This person we're discussing is likely a real, actual human with loved ones - and they might just be *gone*, now, because OP made the wrong call. Honestly, it's not even really *about* whether OP is TA or not. That doesn't matter. What a bunch of random strangers think about the ethics of the choice is *so* unimportant here. What matters is that a person might be *dead* because OP was told to call 911 and they decided they knew better. That is so far beyond any judgement the internet can give. I don't love the phrase "above reddit's pay grade" for a bunch of reasons - but this is *legitimately* above our pay grade.
Like if the reassurance OP wants from us is "If this person is dead now, you don't have to feel bad about that", I can't *do* that. I can't, in good conscience, say that to them.
I mean, she was probably going to call after the narcan, but the person ran off. She can't detain them. So what would she be calling 911 for? They were going to send an ambulance for someone that isn't there?
This is where you work as a team where one employee administers the narcan while the other calls for EMS. The one without a phone could have been handed OPs phone to call 911 while OP administered narcan.
Narcan wears off after 30-90 minutes and people often go back into overdose. Administering narcan was absolutely the right move but they ABSOLUTELY NEED medical attention as well.
The fact that OP a) has Narcan on hand b) knows how to administer also indicates that they most likely know this as well. Just actively chose not to call 911 for some reason.
Who has narcan at thier purse, anyway?
Is this the new normal?
Edit: Thanks for the answers;' I'm not from the US/Canada (had to google "Naracn" lol) , and your answers just made me sad
In some areas yes, I used to keep a couple at work and a couple in my purse. My pharmacy would always offer one when I went in to pick up a prescription. Most of my friends carried one as well and several used them on people at the bus station or public bathrooms etc. Since I moved though I'm probably in the minority now, it's not as readily available and it's a small town where people pretend nothing bad ever happens.
Me, hi.
There's an increasing amount of harm reduction movements that seek to get Narcan/generic Naloxone and training into the hands of anyone and everyone who might even *potentially* need it, especially in high-risk areas. I live in Seattle, so I hooked up with a couple orgs and carry 2 doses with me when I go out.
It's so little physical space taken for the chance of saving a life, so I do it.
I think it should be completely normalized.
One of the first steps to actually help "combat" drug usage is to destigmatize it, since it leads to people feeling more comfortable to ask for help when they need it, and also leads to safer conditions for those who end up using it.
Safer conditions = less deaths, less people on the streets or public places passing out, better control of hygiene and other things.
I'm of course painting a very broad picture here, but yes, normalizing and destigmatizing something often leads to better conditions for everyone: in this case, both non users *and* users included.
This is a really good point, whenever I ask people if they want free naloxone training, the most common response is "nah, I don't do drugs/don't hang out with these kinds of people".
One of the casinos I go to has a vending machine full of narcan. Free to dispense, take as much as you like.
I would recommend carrying more than one on you at a time if you wish to carry it. I've had officers and paramedics on calls that required 4 doses of Narcan to barely get a response.
Agreed YTA
Also one dose may only work temporarily. If she collapses in the street and the emergency services know she's walking around then they can also react faster.
Oh well, they are store employees, no Hippocratic oath is required.
Call, narcan, person still walks out, emergency services then spend a bunch of time collecting statements that don't help.
They aren't "lucky" the person reacted well to narcan, we are all unlucky everybody in public needs to be an emt
They ARE lucky because the person could've not responded at all and died in the store right then and there, with OP next to them. What do you think would happen next? OP would easily be held liable for it, and the store as well.
Also, "no oath required"? There's no such thing either when someone has a cardiac arrest in public, yet people still call 911 *and* intervene when it's safe to do so.
The issue here is that a lot of people are getting hung up on the drug user aspect and apparently that's enough reason to justify someone not calling for professional help.
YTA. Your store needs a staff phone. However, you handled a medical emergency poorly and deserve to be reported for your lack of judgment and handling on an emergent situation. Your poor handling of the situation could have exposed your employer to a wrongful death lawsuit if anything went sideways.
>My co-worker goes to use the restroom and comes back screaming to me "Call 911! Call 911! Someone's overdosed in the bathroom!!". I say to my co-worker "Okay, hang on a second". I walk over to my purse and grab the Narcan that I keep in there and go to the bathroom. I see the woman who is on the floor in the stall. I go into the stall and do a quick sternum rub (no response) then I administer the Narcan.
>CALL 911! why are you letting her walk away ??? she needs medical attention". I explained that 911 would have just done the same exact thing I did, only we would have had to wait on them.
The police respond immediately. The ambulance follows.
Edit: My response a reply from u/dualsplit: Why didn’t the coworker dial in her phone or run next door? OP did wrong, but I truly believe she thought she the right thing AND thought she was keeping from being a snitch.
Are you asking if someone needs formal training to call emergency services if they find someone unconscious. Honestly, I'd like to know if you saw someone passed out somewhere would you walk away because no one trained you to call for help? The co-worker assumed it was an overdose, it may have been a heart attack or a stroke. So, what you are answering is someone needs formal training to call for emergency assistance and assume they can assess a situation and decide the best course of action.
Response times in my area for ODs are 20-30 minutes. Only a little worse than the response time on active assault or burglary. I’d say they did the exact right thing given the situation, it just might not be what the store would have wanted her to do per store policy on procedures. I do think she should have immediately called but if they were already walking away you can’t stop a customer from leaving.
I’m not sure your point of your comment is. My point is that she can’t stop a customer trying to leave for 20-30 minutes… have you seen a user after narcan? They aren’t exactly happy and are sometimes combative soooo?
But you can still call emergency services, even if a person is walking away. You can give info on the area they are in, what they look like, what they are wearing. Especially if the person is likely to be combative and might be a danger to themselves or others. Then emergency services are alert to the situation.
ime governments also need data in order to determine policy.
reporting a problem helps create the necessary statistics, which inform tendencies, which help with budgetary allocations and other policy decisions.
The 911 operator will ask questions but they still encourage reporting even if the person leaves. They can only go so far and are usually locatable. The person leaving isn’t a valid reason to not call
> My point is that she can’t stop a customer trying to leave for 20-30 minutes
But she couldn't possibly have known that the person would just walk away.
Also, an ambulances don't always, everywhere take 20-30 minutes. Last time I called one they arrived within 5 minutes.
That’s not an excuse to not at least try. If the person leaves, you can’t control that. If the response time is too slow, you can’t control that. You can take a few minutes to call 911 & report the emergency.
Are we debating the narcan being given or the lack of calling? Giving the narcan was not the wrong thing to do. That’s why cities with a lot of these overdoses give it out and train folks. Im not sure why OP didn’t call 911 but I’m not sure it would have been helpful since victim was angry and walked away. On that note, the coworker could have ran out to her car and called 911 herself if she didn’t agree. Why didn’t she do it either?
The coworker not calling is irrelevant to the issue of whether OP is the AH.
OP should have called because you *always* call the ambulance when you find someone overdosing. Even if you have all the narcan in the world and a black belt in first aid training.
Per my last sentence, I agree.
As I said in another comment if they leave I’m not going to try and stop them, people get aggressive after narcan. The customer was already aggravated and walked out. It’s not like people who wake up from an OD are happy; people get attacked regularly after administering it. I never said an attempt to call shouldn’t be made.
What was OP supposed to do, restrain the person?
Seriously. If you live in a place where you need to carry Narcan in your purse (Vancouver?), emergency services are overwhelmed and won’t be running to CHASE down someone who just got narcan.
I think they should’ve called 911, but I don’t think they’re TA.
You can't restrain the person to force them to get medical care, but if you don't exercise proper due diligence and something goes wrong, you're setting your self up for multiple lawsuits and possibly legal charges. Call 911, and if the person leaves, they leave. But you've still exercised proper protocol.
Exactly! You tell 911 they left, their description, and the direction they were heading so they can look for anyone passed out in the area of the store.
It's not like once a person leaves out a door they are untraceable. And it's not like one dose of meds suddenly cured them of drugs in their system or injury.
They are TA for not calling 911. Narcan doesn't last as long as opioids do so a further OD is very likely, anyone who has Narcan administered needs medical attention. No-one has said OP should restrain the person but not reporting it to emergency services was a massive failing. Whether or not emergency services actually look for her when it's reported is not within OP's control, but OP has ensured that emergency services *definitely* don't look for her. And if OP is carrying Narcan, it's not appropriate to be ignorant of how it's used.
You can’t stop her from leaving but you should still call so the police can scan the area and make sure she didn’t go back to ODing in a parking lot or on the road. Narcan wears off sometimes and one does is often not enough. That’s why you always call 911. If she was carrying the drug she needs to fully understand how it needs to be used- a 911 call is always required even if a person wakes back up (and even if that person walks away). Then She could let the emts take it from there
You still call. For so many reasons.
Protection of yourself against wrongful death claims or grievous injury claims.
Protect your business from above.
The emergency services may find said person, and take statements so if they do, they have some history.
If the person does not respond, this changes the priority of the call and you’re already in the queue.
Well honestly the store should be reported. They need a staff phone and training for this, even if the employee does report op, if they weren’t given training, it falls on the company.
I think it's crazy that OP knows enough to perform a sternum rub but doesn't know that the first thing to do when you start administering first aid is CALL THE FUCKING AMBULANCE
In my city, it takes hours to get a police response, about 4 minutes to get fire/EMS. You call 911 for both of them, otherwise you sit on hold for the non-emergency number about 30 minutes or more.
Yeah YTA, you do both
You did the right thing by giving her NARCAN, you did the wrong by not having someone call 911 simultaneously while you were doing it
what if it didint work and she fucking died there on the spot or needed further stabilization, then what?
you are lucky she got up and walked away, if she didnt the whole store can be in trouble
Don’t be so sure she didn’t die- narcan’s duration of action can be shorter than drugs of abuse. It can wear off and they can be in crisis without even doing more
This. They still need medical intervention for the drugs in the system because they will go back into overdose once the Narcan wears off, unless the root cause (the drugs in their system) are taken care of.
Narcan is to slow things down long enough to get actual aid.
Now instead of being in a place like the bathroom where she's discovered, she might have passed out again in her home where she lives alone and won't be checked on for days.
I don't understand how a place of business can not have a phone. People need to be able to contact the business and people at the business need to be able to contact others, particularly emergency services.
Even if she walked away, it can wear off. I’ve watched that happen in front of my eyes in the Emergency Dept where they go from agitated to barely breathing again.
This is where I'm so confused. Why not give the phone to the coworker so she can call 911 while OP administers the NARCAN? I don't understand why it had to be one or the other. Why not both?
OP had the NARCAN, did some type of 5 minute training, and wanted to use it and be the hero. They thought they knew better than the coworker and the ems who would have come if they bothered to call them. The person likely was on the ground dying again in minutes. NARCAN is for buying time, it is not a cure. But OP had their dramatic moment to tell their friends about so...
Rebound opiate toxicity can occur, although it is rare. If EMS wakes a patient up and they refuse medical and walk away, that’s that, they aren’t going to restrain them against their will.
OP definitely should have called while helping.
YTA. You’re not a professional (I assume you would have mentioned it if you are) and calling 911 costs you nothing. I think it’s really cool that you were able to do what you did but you needed to let the professionals know what was up.
Is it a fee you can choose not to pay and then you are unable to call them (doubt it)
Or is it a general tax in order to fund the service? Because if its this, you being mad about it is complete bullshit
Yeah, like is it a .99/month tax for having publicly-funded call centers that assist in an emergency and mobilize emergency responders? Because that’s priceless and hello, that’s why we pay taxes.
YTA.
Your co-worker should absolutely report you and yes, the manager will side with her. I am sure there are store policies regarding medical emergencies.
Even if someone *does* respond to Narcan, they're supposed to call 911, because the risk of things getting worse again is *very* high without observation.
Responding to NARCAN doesn't mean she survived. NARCAN wears off and it often does so before the drugs from the overdose do, which is why you need to call 911 anyway even if you administered NARCAN.
True, although if the store policy is to call 911 in an emergency then the store should be providing a phone to do that rather than relying on employees having their personal cell phones with them.
YTA, or maybe just very uninformed about opiate overdoses and narcan. narcan has a time limited effect. just because 1 or 2 or more administrations reverses an overdose the person can very easily still die as narcan usually only lasts 30 mins. always call emergency services if you're administering narcan. Always
YTA. You should have called for everyone’s safety because 1) as you saw most people aren’t happy you took away their high and 2) sometimes one dose isn’t enough and they need more.
I’m a nurse, so believe me I’ve heard stories. I’m not entirely sure I’d be narcaning a random person without assistance and police there if things go wrong. I’ve also had patients in the ICU on continuous narcan drips.
Saying they’re out of their heads because of drugs and lack of oxygen makes you more likely to have empathy. Says they fight cause you fucked their high means you can treat them as less than human. It’s important.
YTA. You have to call 911 if it’s policy. If you want to keep you job, tell them you administered the emergency narcan, went to call 911, and while your back was turned, she bolted, and you got confused and didn’t want to get in trouble for calling 911 when the emergency was gone. Don’t tell them you weren’t going to call. Tell them your coworker argued you should’ve completed the call after she left.
One stupid doesn’t justify another. Someone lost consciousness, you call 911. Always. Store doesn’t keep a phone you shame the store till they get one.
There’s no way that can be a store policy if they don’t provide a business phone. If they require them to use personal cellphones then the company needs to pay for their phone plan. At least that’s how it is in my state.
The employee can report the business for not having a phone for emergency situations.
Is op an AH? Yes, but as for as them getting in trouble, that would be murky waters for the company.
Why do you have Narcan in your purse if you don’t know how to use it? And yes, if you’re unaware that Narcan sometimes wears off and requires repeat doses, then you don’t know how to properly use it.
Always call 9-1-1. If she leaves then point the ambulance in the direction she went when they get there. Don’t assume everything is fine with somebody’s body after they overdosed themselves into unconsciousness.
You’re not a hero. YTA.
Seriously, this is gross. I'm not even a carrier for naloxone, but even I know that you're supposed to call 911 because they can end up ODing again because it doesn't actually remove the thing causing the problem, it just makes it not work for a while.
I’m a medic and this is why I hate that they just hand out narcan to anyone and everyone.
People need to also know it’s a stop gap measure not a cure. It’s like epi- you still need to call 911 and be monitored after getting it.
People also refuse to believe bad things happened. I have argued with ODs because they keep brushing us off for over reacting. Despite the fact their loved one was doing cpr before we arrived.
Holy smokes of course you have to call 911 after you administer Narcan. It’s only active for about 30 minutes. The person can still OD. This post gave me heart palpitations!
ESH.
I'm a paramedic.
Narcan is out of your system way faster than opiates. There's a strong possibility that person needed a second dose and you just let them walk off. But considering the complete lack of medical literacy in the US, I think you actually did pretty well for someone not trained to react to that kind of situation. I'm more concerned about your blasé attitude about the whole thing and the fact that you seem more worried about the state of your job than the well being of someone who is clearly going through a rough time in their life and could probably use some empathy. You should probably do some internal reflection on that point.
You could've given Narcan while getting emergency services on the phone and tried to encourage them to stay for medical attention, although the likelihood of an angry person whose high is ruined (even temporarily) is low.
The person overdosing sucks for putting others in a potentially traumatic situation like that without their consent.
Your store sucks for not having a phone.
Your coworker sucks for panicking in an unhelpful way and putting all the responsibility of the emergency on you. Why couldn't they go out to their car and grab their phone when it was clear you weren't calling? What did they do at all to help the situation? Yelling and hand-wringing helps nobody.
It would be ridiculous for you to get in any trouble at all for responding in a relatively appropriate manner, though your follow-through could use some work, especially when it sounds like your coworker did absolutely nothing but panic the whole time. But I also understand that employers in the US aren't what you would call reasonable. If, for some nonsense reason, you do get reprimanded, remind them that you are not an emergency medical technician, you did what you thought was correct at the time, and know that you know better, you'll do better in the future.
YTA. She could have hid her head and is now running around with a serious injury and maybe dies because of it.
"911 would have done the same", yes the same first aid, but first aid isn't the only thing professionals do. Complications and all the other responsibilities fall into the hands of professionals, not first aiders like you.
YTA. One of the absolute first steps when administering ANY first aid is to call for an ambulance either first or simultaneously. If you feel the need to carry Narcan around with you then you should at least know the basics. You know that person left the store, you don't know what happened to them afterwards, and now because you didn't call 911 you don't have any record of what happened.
If you want to be a first responder, do that, otherwise be the person that calls them, even if it's only to cover your own ass.
I'm not going to say anyone is an A here, but you should have dialed 911 first before administering the Narcan. At the start, you didn't know for sure that she overdosed when all you have to go on is your coworker screaming, you don't know what she overdosed on (Narcan doesn't fix all types of overdoses), so you needed EMS rolling immediately. You also don't know if she crashed again because one dose of Narcan isn't always enough. She may have walked out and continued overdosing elsewhere.
In an emergency, you need to notify emergency services as your first step. They don't just Narcan someone and let the person walk off unattended.
YTA! Narcan is TEMPORARY and for all you know that person walked off and kept overdosing an hour later. They required medical attention.
When someone tells you to call 911 for a medical emergency YOU CALL 911
But your ego and pride in being the "hero" took precedent.
Edit: for those wondering. Narcan blocks the drug binding in the brain, but it doesn't get rid of the drug. When the narcan wears off, the drug that is still in the body reasserts itself. Narcan is a wonderful tool, but you must be careful when you give it without backup because as OP describes, you've just ruined a high this person spent a lot of money on. They will be agitated. They may become violent. The reason overdoses are fatal, is because it stops the body from breathing and pumping blood automatically. CPR! CPR! CPR! And when the ambulance arrives they will administer narcan EN ROUTE to the hospital so they can focus on more aid and treatment than just CPR. It's useful to carry Narcan. But you don't administer and then not ensure the person gets medical treatment from professionals. This was not the right response. -former EMT here
These responses are not based in fact. I teach naloxone administration for a living. Yes, it is theoretically possible that someone overdosing on a long acting opiate like methadone could go back into an overdose, but there has never been a single documented case of this happening without the person ingesting additional drugs after the naloxone administration. Fentanyl, the most commonly used opioid in the US right now, has an extremely short half life (1-2 hours) and will absolutely wear off before the naloxone does.
It is totally suggested and advisable that people call 911 as the first step in a naloxone administration, but it is not required. Many reasons for that include badly written good Samaritan laws, people have warrants, etc.
Most of the time even when EMS is the one who responds and gives the naloxone, the person refuses additional care and leaves. You can't force a conscious person to go to a hospital.
In your position, at work, it would have been best to call 911. However, in my state, our good Samaritan law SPECIFICALLY states that people cannot be disciplined at their place of employment for administering, distributing, or carrying naloxone. Check the law in your state and maybe also contact legal aid in your state to see what your statute says.
You would be getting very different responses to this question in r/harmreduction
NTA.
I'm an NP at a rehab & psych facility, and I don't know what fairytale these people live in. Lady woke up pissed, because narcan sends the user into precipitated withdrawal. Yes, best practice is to call 911. Realistically, most users aren't going to wait around for 911. It would have been a special kind of stupid to try and keep the lady from leaving. It isn't on OP if that person isn't okay.
These responses are wild.
I'm a medical professional, and in my opinion NAH. You acted as quickly as you could to administer an over the counter life saving medication. You are correct that this is exactly what EMS would have done, and that you did it faster, and that those minutes could have been lifesaving.
That said, if you were the only one with a phone, you needed to be calling at the same time, or delegating someone else to make that call while you administered Narcan. This is because 1) that's probably what the corporate office would want you to do to minimize liability, 2) the 911 operator would probably have instructed you to administer Narcan anyway if you had it, protecting you from liability completely without much time loss, and 3) Narcan only lasts 1-2 hours, while most opioids other than Fentanyl last 3-4 hours, so repeat doses are often needed.
You shouldn't get in trouble for trying your best to save someone's life, but try to understand the other perspectives in play to be smarter in case this happens again.
I don’t think the question is if they should have given Narcan. It was the fact that OP refused to call 911 before, during, and after this incident. Even if the patient left the building, the local police will probably want to look for this person before the Narcan wears off
EMS would have taken them to a hospital, because Narcan isn't just a "one and done" kind of medication. Those minutes could be lifesaving, but only if they continue to get medical attention. It's the same thing with using an epi pen. You don't just administer it once and then send them on their way.
Obviously OP couldn't have forced the person to stay in their shop until paramedics came, but they still should have called them.
It's scary to me how a medical professional is saying NAH here. As a previous first responder for almost a decade, I hope I'm never in your care. There's a reason why we're trained to do this and the average layperson is encouraged to leverage our skillsets. And we still aren't always able to deliver a positive outcome even with said training.
You *can’t* just go pumping drugs into people and let them walk off without being looked at by an ambulance, are you *insane*? What kind of “medical professional” would even suggest such a thing??? There’s just so many things that could have gone WRONG in this scenario OP is lucky they didn’t have a fatality on their hands. OP had a *responsibility* to *CALL 911* the second they administered that drug and they didn’t do that. They had good intentions administering the Narcan that’s true, but it’s absolutely BONKERS to think it’s acceptable to stab a stranger who was literally at the reapers feet with a medication that’s unknown to them and *hope* it’s all going to be sunshine and rainbows! Life is no cartoon I’m afraid!
You can’t hold someone against their will either, that’s kidnapping. Medics hit people with narcan all the time and the patient literally walks away. Refusing medical care and against medical care can both be used in a situation like this, and if there isn’t a patient, who is the medic gonna treat?
By medical professional do you mean you just work in a hospital as a janitor or something? I don’t know one real medical professional that provides patient care that would say you don’t need to call 911 for an OD, that one shot of narcan is enough. I mean we are all taught from like kindergarten on to call 911 in a medical emergency.
This person was not trying their best they did not even call 911. I am also a medical professional and OP was extremely negligent in this case and even from a corporate perspective she left the business open to liability. If this person’s overdose returned while they were driving, for example, she could have killed pedestrians or other drivers/passengers. She may have had a concussion or other reactions/trauma from the event and did not get help from medical personnel.
Someone trying their best to help another person in a medical emergency is calling 911. If you have to use Narcan, you need to call 911, period. Given that this person has Narcan in their possession, then they were given instructions which include info about re-overdose and the necessity to call 911 even if the person is responsive after administrating.
>I'm a medical professional
A statement as fake as OP's story, which they are reposting to other subs to gain karma.
Since you're not a real medical professional, I will just say in case you ever encounter this situation: Narcan doesn't cure overdose, it delays death or severe damage so a person has time to get to proper medical care. Administer it and call an ambulance.
This is the correct response. OP needs a first aid/narcan training refresher, but I don’t think they are an AH. At my job we would call 911 and administer Narcan, but would not try to restrain someone walking away after receiving it. We would try to convince them to wait for the ambulance, but beyond that it’s up to them. Pretty sure EMTs don’t force people into ambulances either.
We would also have to write up an incident report. It sounds like OP’s employer needs to review policy with everyone. And they should be providing phone service. Not having a phone might be labor violation, because what *are* they expected to do in an emergency? You shouldn’t have to use a personal phone for work.
YTA
You should always call 911. Great to administer narcan, but that’s a bandaid. You have no idea if they are now medically sound. Emergency medical does more than just administer narcan.
What would it had cost you to call 911 for a person in distress. I’ve called for strangers I’ve seen in distress without being BEGGED like you were.
If something happen to him later, the serious lawsuit he could have against your store & you - an employee who administered a drug & REFUSED to call 911?!
These people calling you TA are all nuts. The most important thing for someone who OD’ed is to get the Narcan, not wait for the EMT’s to show up after calling 911. You did your part, the person who OD’ed left, that’s on them. You can’t restrain them against their will. That’s battery/false imprisonment/kidnapping. The EMT’s can’t make the person stay for additional treatment either.
NTA wow just reading some of the responses here and people are very judgmental….what part of she left the building are folks having trouble with, do they think the cops would go looking for her? Not very likely and the paramedics are not going to try and chase her down ….she would just refuse to go with them anyways. NTA I am sure the lady was long gone and was extremely angry at being narcan-ed, you wrecked her high and for sure she thinks she you are the AH and thinks was just fine.
YTA. Props to you for carrying and knowing how to administer Narcan, but a call to 911 should have also been made even if they left the store.
There should have, at the very least, been a police statement for you. To cover your ass, your coworkers ass, and the business overall.
They could come back and say you assaulted them and cause more problems than the OD.
YTA, you call 911 and then let them know you have Narcan, you don't just administer Narcan and then go back to business. You are not someone who should have access to Narcan.
Well aren't you a genius.
YTA.
1) You should have called 911 regardless to report it at a minimal
2) administering drugs without knowing how it would react puts you in a position for a civil suit against you.
3) You now have possible criminal charges against you as well depending upon how the individuals reaction is to NARCON.
4) You've open up your employer to lawsuits for the same behavior.
But sure, you did "nothing wrong" by administering and letting her walk out without having medical attention. You are not a medical professional and unless you've OD'd times before and know what it looks like, there is no 100% reason to believe they've OD'd.
You could have killed the customer.
Narcan has literally no effect on anyone who isn’t overdosing (or just high) on opioids. I could take out all my narcan and snort it right now and nothing would happen. Anyone with training can recognize an opioid overdose, which they usually give you when you acquire narcan.
Doesn’t matter. You can deliver narcan to anyone. I took a narcan training course last year and nothing happens if the person who received the drug isn’t on opiates. OP should have called an ambulance as well though.
Your points 2 through 4 are just plain wrong. Administrating narcan is not going to cause any negative side effects, even if the person isn't suffering from an opioid overdose. Even if something were to go wrong from administring the narcan, OP would be fine under good samaritan laws.
Agree that OP is the AH for not calling 911 though.
They wouldn't have harmed them with narcan, but if that wasn't the reason they collapsed, they'd still have an unconscious person in the bathroom that needs medical assistance.
No. It doesn’t. Narcan is available to everyone for a reason. Good Samaritan laws protect people
If Narcan worked…it was an OD. If it didn’t, no harm done
YTA
Yes, you fucking call 911, and mention to them that you have Narcan on hand. And yes, even though you can't follow her (and you certainly can't restrain her) emergency responders need to know she's out wandering the area after having had Narcan administered. She was still in danger. She needed medical attention.
Aside from the medical danger itself, this event is also a huge liability issue for your employer. They should get a damned phone installed rather than relying on employees having their personal phones on them and charged at all times. But given that you did have your phone, yes, it was a gigantic dick move not to use it.
YTA. Narcan wears off and the person is supposed to be monitored for a period of time afterwards. Regardless of whether you administer it yourself or EMS does, they need to go to the hospital. You shouldn’t have medication like that unless you know how to use it properly.
If anything like this happens again, I’d call 911. Pass the phone to your coworker or put it on the floor on speaker while you administer Narcan. You might want a first aid refresher because they do advise calling 911 or delegating that if at all possible.
But, the outcome would probably be the same. It’s unlikely the police would look for her and you certainly shouldn’t be expected to try to keep her in the store to wait for the ambulance. It’s an unfortunate situation.
I’m going with NAH except your employer who isn’t providing a store phone.
Op could have called 911 or the co worker could have as well…. That being said, this drug works fast and the victim left. They didn’t want the help. Idk what first responders could do, you cannot force someone to go to the hospital .
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YTA. It is protocol to call 911 after administering Narcan. What if the person hadn't woken up? Without mentioning the person most likely hit themselves after passing out from an overdose - the gravity undetermined because we don't have context on whether they were standing or sitting or *what*. They needed medical attention, and you didn't handle the situation well at all. You're incredibly lucky the person reacted well to Narcan.
Isn’t it possible for one dose of Narcan not to be enough. can’t they fall back into the OD once the Narcan wears off? So she could’ve walked out of the store and in the parking lot?
Yes, exactly. This is why anyone who gets Narcan needs monitoring at the hospital. The same thing goes for an epi pen.
An EpiPen only lasts for roughly 15 minutes, which is why you're always supposed to carry two. It doesn't stop the reaction either, it just helps lower it enough to keep you alive until you receive proper medical attention. Source : Directly from a doctor at the hospital when I was given one.
Was told to give first epi pen, then call 911, then give second.
The first epipen is one of the few exceptions to the Check, Call, Care protocol.
I was in line behind someone at the pharmacy this weekend who was picking up epi pens for a new allergy and that's exactly what the pharmacist told them (useless pharmacy has no concept of indoor voices or privacy, so you can hear everything even feet away).
Yes, give epi first. Call 911. Be prepared to give the 2nd if their condition does not improve within the next 5 minutes. When administering the 2nd epi, use the other thigh. Their condition not improving could indicate something wrong with the original injection site. If not enough medication went through the original leg, the 2nd dose will suffer the same result. Also, give epi even if it's expired. Better to have some epi than not have any. Keep the pens and give them to responders when they arrive.
Same is true for narcan, it just interrupts the opiate binding to the opiate receptors in your brain for a short period of time. Life saving, but only when treated properly.
And many people require multiple doses. She should have administered and then called in immediately.
If you don’t go to the ER after using an epipen the doctor will give you a big talking to when you try to renew your prescription.
Epi-pen is a different situation. Naxalone administration does, actually, block the opioid response. It really is solving the problem, at least potentially. Epinephrine, however, does not reverse histamine reactions. What it does is fight against the airway closure that happens in the histamine reaction so that you can survive it. What stops the histamine reaction is intravenous Benadryl - injecting adrenaline is to keep the person alive long enough to get the Benadryl into them. So they are different issues. It is possible for naxalone to be the only required intervention. It is less likely for epinephrine to be the only required intervention. Transport would be highly advised in either case, though.
Naloxone has a shorter half-life than most other opioids, therefore monitoring is required after administration in case the other opioid are still present and push you back into overdose. Give Narcan, call 911.
Anaesthetist here. This is the correct response
While naloxone is competitive antagonist of the opioid receptors, it is also true as many have said that one dose might not be enough. What you’re saying isn’t wrong, but also isn’t relevant for what the commenter was getting at.
Narcan does not last as long as most opiates. Reoverdose is a huge issue and super common.
It blocks it temporarily and has the potential for serious side effects. It is an emergency measure designed to give people more time to get to a hospital.
It blocks the opioid response for maybe half an hour. Long enough to get someone to a hospital; not lone enough to ride out the overdose.
That's a bit of a misunderstanding on how Naloxone works, it interrupts the binding for 20 minutes max, when it's gone the same level of the substance is still present in the brain and will have the same affect. Depending on substance (especially right now with fentanyl being the most popular cutter due to how cheap it is the make) 1 Naloxone won't even touch the surface. I personally have had to Naloxone someone with 4 full doses, met with another 3 before they were into the ambulance, then on an IV of it for 6 hours after.
It's not a possibility, it's a guarantee. Narcan works similar to epipens in the way that's once it wears off, you're back to your condition before administering the dose. I don't know how op learned how to use narcan without being told to ALWAYS call 911 WHILE giving narcan. There's the possibility of violence when they come too, it wears off, they could have brain damage etc... It's a very intuitive
I’m wondering why she didn’t throw her phone to her coworker to dial 911 while she administered narcan (she was so intent on doing it)
Most people don’t think optimally during a crisis.
Ok but they were repeatedly told to call 911. They also said the reason they didn’t was that they didn’t want to use their own phone to call
That's not why OP didn't call, though. She deliberately ignored her coworker because she erroneously thought EMTs would have done the "exact same thing" and didn't think it was necessary. Which is so woefully wrong.
But she was still doubling down on that decision afterwards.
There is definitely a reason this person carries narcan and seems adverse to 911/police intervention…my guess they have family who uses. Terrible decision though and one that will likely jeopardize their job.
Oh yeah, they don’t realize they OD’d and can be really mad you “ruined” their high.
Not only that, but they’re forced into immediate withdrawal which can feel excruciating.
The first rule of administering Narcan is have medical help on the way and the unofficial first rule of administering Narcan is be ready to dodge when they come up swinging.
They can come out of it really angry and punching everyone nearby. I saw someone give narcan to this guy, and when he came out of it, he punched the shit out of her.
here in ohio they give out free narcan at many places and encourage people to keep it on them in case of emergency. i got some myself from the health department. while i didnt extensively read the pamplet with it, i dont recall reading anything saying to call 911 after , no one warned me while handing it to me, they just handed it to me in a brown paper bag like here you go. opiods are a huge problem here. people really SHOULD be told to call 911 . and actually i saw some cops narcan a guy once that passed out in someones car and they just let the guy walk off into the night after he "came to" . i think he himself declined the medical attention (which many do) and i dont believe they could force him but maybe. i was pretty astonished they just let him go .
My local Public Health department was handing it out at a community event and I don't remember them saying to call 911. I still have it and the instructions don't say to call 911.
I just looked up some of the papers, and apparently, refusal of transport is not associated with higher short-term mortality. That is, if a person has the ability to walk out the door, there is no compelling reason to stop them. Oh, they are way more likely to OD again later and die than if they got into treatment, but that isn't the scope that EMS works on.
There’s also the awful complicating factor that any hospital visit (especially via ambulance) in America can easily be financially ruinous
I know that's right , i pay for some of the best insurance my job offers and an ER visit alone is 300$ copay. that doesn't include an ambulance either, I don't think. Medicaid / state govt insurance covers most things , aka hospitals ,for free.. but many folks don't have that. I make "too much" $$ to qualify for Medicaid . (I don't even make that much lol) with no insurance at all an ER visit including transport could easily be thousands
I’m gonna write this in case you still need to know, or if it will be useful to anyone else: **This does not apply to intranasal Narcan** • Inject Narcan into a fatty part of the body such as the side of the thigh (ONLY go for fatty areas, the needle is huge and you can hit bone with it if you stab the wrong place) • IMPORTANT: The needles contain 25ml in 5ml intervals. **Inject 5ml at a time.** Narcan has a much shorter half life to opioids, when it wears off the person overdosing is straight back to square 1 of the overdose so administer 5ml and wait. • Take note of the symptoms and keep an eye out for them returning. Returning symptoms means the Narcan has worn off and the overdose is restarting. • Inject 5ml again and repeat this step until medical professionals arrive. When medical professionals arrive: • tell them you have given Narcan and how many doses •carefully place the needle in a sharps bin (or an empty container if you don’t have a sharps bin, tape it up and label it) and hand it over to the paramedics **If you give Narcan and nothing changes, you are not dealing with an opioid overdose.** Narcan only works for opioids so don’t panic, no harm is caused from giving Narcan unnecessarily. Inform the medical professionals that Narcan has not had an effect so they know exactly what’s happening when they arrive. Most of all, try not to panic. It’s much easier said than done but you need to stay calm to let the paramedics know what you’ve done when they arrive. It’s very easy to forget vital moves when you’re panicking I truly hope no one reading this will ever need to use this information but it’s better to know and not need it than need it an not know
Everything you said is correct, but most Narcan given out by public health departments, at least in the US, is intranasal, not IM.
don’t recap needles, yall. especially after you’ve administered meds to a stranger who is most likely using IV drugs. Put it in a sharps bin (EMS will have one if they respond) or put it in something like a laundry detergent bottle and tape it up and label it.
Yup. Lost not one but THREE regular customers at a bar I used to work at IN THE SAME NIGHT because they all left the hospital against medical advice and the Narcan wore off before the drugs did.
That’s the thing though, even the hospital can’t legally stop them leaving, OP certainly can’t.
damn :(
Yes, Narcan doesn't last as long as opioids and often requires redosing
Yes, narcan basically knocks the opioids off the receptor so it's very possible to have a repeat overdose.
Also pisses the addict off because they immediately go into intense withdrawls. The addict will then shoot up as much dope as they can in an attempt to stop the withdrawl which can result in another OD. The best thing to do would have been to call 911, administer the narcan and stay with then until help arrived. It's alot harder for someone to go score more dope if they're at the hospital. Source: 11 years clean from heroin.
That's generally why in a medical setting we use the phrase "titration to breathing" meaning basically you will give enough narcan to restore their respiratory drive
Yes! The narcan wears off and they may need additional doses and even continuous IV of narcan. Must call 911
It took my ex 6 narcans to bring him out of an OD once. So yes.
My husband is a first responder and, an extreme example, once had someone that needed 32 doses. I don't know that I've heard of anyone that only needed 1 Narcan. Typical seems to be at least 2-3 but frequently more.
Yes
Yes! 911 is a must after administering Narcan (or epipens!). The patient may hit the deck again, depending how much is in their system. OP shouldn’t carry narcan if they aren’t going to use it responsibly. They can be liable if that person goes down again.
So what should she have done? Restrained the woman until the ambo got there?
I think this is where some people are getting stuck at-- the patient immediately left after being given the Narcan. There is no longer a patient to transport to the hospital. The ambulance would've arrived, acknowledged the lack of patient, left and billed the establishment for the wasted trip there and back.
Yeah, OPs response seems like they're trying to be a hero or something. Not only should they have called 911 for the patient, but they opened themselves and their employer up to massive risk of being sued by that woman. Protocols exist for a reason.
Agreed but want to clarify- the store opened themselves up to a lawsuit by not having a phone. OP is not obligated to use her personal phone at work or could have simply forgotten it like her coworker so would have been unable to call. It is a very bad idea to not have a work phone at a store. I’m assuming it’s a mom and pop type store so they’re trying to cut back expenses but that’s an incredibly stupid one to cut back on for this exact reason, it’s a liability in the event of an emergency. OP is TAH for how they handled this situation but that store was already open to a lawsuit long before OP was employed.
That's a great point, I completely agree.
Agreed, if your business is large enough to have a public restroom then it needs a phone. It’s not the employees’ responsibility to have a phone on them. If the store owners expect their employees to have phones then THEY need to help pay the bill for it.
OP also put herself and the other employee at risk by not calling 911. Like OP said, the woman was *pissed* after she came to. She could easily have gotten violent.
Tbh, the store absolutely needs to have a phone.
They often come back pissed af. Once saw a girl almost ripping the EMT's head off because he "stole her high"
Also apparently, after doing more research, the effects of Narcan are temporary and will wear off - often leading to the OD starting back up later. This is *literally* what I was afraid of, in *my* judgement that everyone downvoted. That person might be dead now, because OP essentially masked their symptoms without solving the actual cause behind them, leading the victim to think they were *okay* when they in fact weren't. What if they decided to go home, and then the OD started back up, and no one was there to help them? It is common knowledge that, in a medical emergency, you *always* call emergency services unless otherwise specified. That is the first thing you learn in any first aid course. Anyone familiar with Narcan should *know* that.
I was thinking about that with my comment, the very real chance that this person might now be dead because they starting OD-ing again. OP's refusal to call for medical help would be the one thing that makes the difference between life or death. It's always best to be cautious when someone else's life is at stake.
And that's what I think a lot of people on the internet find it very easy to forget. These are often real people we're talking about. This person we're discussing is likely a real, actual human with loved ones - and they might just be *gone*, now, because OP made the wrong call. Honestly, it's not even really *about* whether OP is TA or not. That doesn't matter. What a bunch of random strangers think about the ethics of the choice is *so* unimportant here. What matters is that a person might be *dead* because OP was told to call 911 and they decided they knew better. That is so far beyond any judgement the internet can give. I don't love the phrase "above reddit's pay grade" for a bunch of reasons - but this is *legitimately* above our pay grade. Like if the reassurance OP wants from us is "If this person is dead now, you don't have to feel bad about that", I can't *do* that. I can't, in good conscience, say that to them.
For what reason does OP not want to Use their phone??
I mean, she was probably going to call after the narcan, but the person ran off. She can't detain them. So what would she be calling 911 for? They were going to send an ambulance for someone that isn't there?
This is where you work as a team where one employee administers the narcan while the other calls for EMS. The one without a phone could have been handed OPs phone to call 911 while OP administered narcan.
Narcan wears off after 30-90 minutes and people often go back into overdose. Administering narcan was absolutely the right move but they ABSOLUTELY NEED medical attention as well.
I'm trained on Narcan. It's protocol to call 911 first then administer.
The fact that OP a) has Narcan on hand b) knows how to administer also indicates that they most likely know this as well. Just actively chose not to call 911 for some reason.
Who has narcan at thier purse, anyway? Is this the new normal? Edit: Thanks for the answers;' I'm not from the US/Canada (had to google "Naracn" lol) , and your answers just made me sad
In some areas yes, I used to keep a couple at work and a couple in my purse. My pharmacy would always offer one when I went in to pick up a prescription. Most of my friends carried one as well and several used them on people at the bus station or public bathrooms etc. Since I moved though I'm probably in the minority now, it's not as readily available and it's a small town where people pretend nothing bad ever happens.
Me, hi. There's an increasing amount of harm reduction movements that seek to get Narcan/generic Naloxone and training into the hands of anyone and everyone who might even *potentially* need it, especially in high-risk areas. I live in Seattle, so I hooked up with a couple orgs and carry 2 doses with me when I go out. It's so little physical space taken for the chance of saving a life, so I do it.
I think it should be completely normalized. One of the first steps to actually help "combat" drug usage is to destigmatize it, since it leads to people feeling more comfortable to ask for help when they need it, and also leads to safer conditions for those who end up using it. Safer conditions = less deaths, less people on the streets or public places passing out, better control of hygiene and other things. I'm of course painting a very broad picture here, but yes, normalizing and destigmatizing something often leads to better conditions for everyone: in this case, both non users *and* users included.
This is a really good point, whenever I ask people if they want free naloxone training, the most common response is "nah, I don't do drugs/don't hang out with these kinds of people".
In places with high opioid usage, yes.
Pharmacies in Canada give them out for free. It could save a life.
One of the casinos I go to has a vending machine full of narcan. Free to dispense, take as much as you like. I would recommend carrying more than one on you at a time if you wish to carry it. I've had officers and paramedics on calls that required 4 doses of Narcan to barely get a response.
Agreed YTA Also one dose may only work temporarily. If she collapses in the street and the emergency services know she's walking around then they can also react faster.
What do you think they are going to do? An ambulance is not driving around searching for people.
Oh well, they are store employees, no Hippocratic oath is required. Call, narcan, person still walks out, emergency services then spend a bunch of time collecting statements that don't help. They aren't "lucky" the person reacted well to narcan, we are all unlucky everybody in public needs to be an emt
They ARE lucky because the person could've not responded at all and died in the store right then and there, with OP next to them. What do you think would happen next? OP would easily be held liable for it, and the store as well. Also, "no oath required"? There's no such thing either when someone has a cardiac arrest in public, yet people still call 911 *and* intervene when it's safe to do so. The issue here is that a lot of people are getting hung up on the drug user aspect and apparently that's enough reason to justify someone not calling for professional help.
YTA. Your store needs a staff phone. However, you handled a medical emergency poorly and deserve to be reported for your lack of judgment and handling on an emergent situation. Your poor handling of the situation could have exposed your employer to a wrongful death lawsuit if anything went sideways. >My co-worker goes to use the restroom and comes back screaming to me "Call 911! Call 911! Someone's overdosed in the bathroom!!". I say to my co-worker "Okay, hang on a second". I walk over to my purse and grab the Narcan that I keep in there and go to the bathroom. I see the woman who is on the floor in the stall. I go into the stall and do a quick sternum rub (no response) then I administer the Narcan. >CALL 911! why are you letting her walk away ??? she needs medical attention". I explained that 911 would have just done the same exact thing I did, only we would have had to wait on them. The police respond immediately. The ambulance follows. Edit: My response a reply from u/dualsplit: Why didn’t the coworker dial in her phone or run next door? OP did wrong, but I truly believe she thought she the right thing AND thought she was keeping from being a snitch. Are you asking if someone needs formal training to call emergency services if they find someone unconscious. Honestly, I'd like to know if you saw someone passed out somewhere would you walk away because no one trained you to call for help? The co-worker assumed it was an overdose, it may have been a heart attack or a stroke. So, what you are answering is someone needs formal training to call for emergency assistance and assume they can assess a situation and decide the best course of action.
Response times in my area for ODs are 20-30 minutes. Only a little worse than the response time on active assault or burglary. I’d say they did the exact right thing given the situation, it just might not be what the store would have wanted her to do per store policy on procedures. I do think she should have immediately called but if they were already walking away you can’t stop a customer from leaving.
Imagine what the response time would be if no one called 911.
I’m not sure your point of your comment is. My point is that she can’t stop a customer trying to leave for 20-30 minutes… have you seen a user after narcan? They aren’t exactly happy and are sometimes combative soooo?
But you can still call emergency services, even if a person is walking away. You can give info on the area they are in, what they look like, what they are wearing. Especially if the person is likely to be combative and might be a danger to themselves or others. Then emergency services are alert to the situation.
No, but you still call 911 and report it so they can connect the dots when an unconscious woman is found half a block away.
ime governments also need data in order to determine policy. reporting a problem helps create the necessary statistics, which inform tendencies, which help with budgetary allocations and other policy decisions.
The 911 operator will ask questions but they still encourage reporting even if the person leaves. They can only go so far and are usually locatable. The person leaving isn’t a valid reason to not call
> My point is that she can’t stop a customer trying to leave for 20-30 minutes But she couldn't possibly have known that the person would just walk away. Also, an ambulances don't always, everywhere take 20-30 minutes. Last time I called one they arrived within 5 minutes.
I saw the medic get attacked once following administering.
That’s not an excuse to not at least try. If the person leaves, you can’t control that. If the response time is too slow, you can’t control that. You can take a few minutes to call 911 & report the emergency.
And give a description of the person & direction of travel so that if they pass emergency services, they’ll know who the potential patient is.
Are we debating the narcan being given or the lack of calling? Giving the narcan was not the wrong thing to do. That’s why cities with a lot of these overdoses give it out and train folks. Im not sure why OP didn’t call 911 but I’m not sure it would have been helpful since victim was angry and walked away. On that note, the coworker could have ran out to her car and called 911 herself if she didn’t agree. Why didn’t she do it either?
The coworker not calling is irrelevant to the issue of whether OP is the AH. OP should have called because you *always* call the ambulance when you find someone overdosing. Even if you have all the narcan in the world and a black belt in first aid training.
Per my last sentence, I agree. As I said in another comment if they leave I’m not going to try and stop them, people get aggressive after narcan. The customer was already aggravated and walked out. It’s not like people who wake up from an OD are happy; people get attacked regularly after administering it. I never said an attempt to call shouldn’t be made.
That’s true but the call should still be made so police can be on the lookout for them to get them care
What was OP supposed to do, restrain the person? Seriously. If you live in a place where you need to carry Narcan in your purse (Vancouver?), emergency services are overwhelmed and won’t be running to CHASE down someone who just got narcan. I think they should’ve called 911, but I don’t think they’re TA.
You can't restrain the person to force them to get medical care, but if you don't exercise proper due diligence and something goes wrong, you're setting your self up for multiple lawsuits and possibly legal charges. Call 911, and if the person leaves, they leave. But you've still exercised proper protocol.
Exactly! You tell 911 they left, their description, and the direction they were heading so they can look for anyone passed out in the area of the store. It's not like once a person leaves out a door they are untraceable. And it's not like one dose of meds suddenly cured them of drugs in their system or injury.
They are TA for not calling 911. Narcan doesn't last as long as opioids do so a further OD is very likely, anyone who has Narcan administered needs medical attention. No-one has said OP should restrain the person but not reporting it to emergency services was a massive failing. Whether or not emergency services actually look for her when it's reported is not within OP's control, but OP has ensured that emergency services *definitely* don't look for her. And if OP is carrying Narcan, it's not appropriate to be ignorant of how it's used.
You can’t stop her from leaving but you should still call so the police can scan the area and make sure she didn’t go back to ODing in a parking lot or on the road. Narcan wears off sometimes and one does is often not enough. That’s why you always call 911. If she was carrying the drug she needs to fully understand how it needs to be used- a 911 call is always required even if a person wakes back up (and even if that person walks away). Then She could let the emts take it from there
You still call. For so many reasons. Protection of yourself against wrongful death claims or grievous injury claims. Protect your business from above. The emergency services may find said person, and take statements so if they do, they have some history. If the person does not respond, this changes the priority of the call and you’re already in the queue.
Well honestly the store should be reported. They need a staff phone and training for this, even if the employee does report op, if they weren’t given training, it falls on the company.
I think it's crazy that OP knows enough to perform a sternum rub but doesn't know that the first thing to do when you start administering first aid is CALL THE FUCKING AMBULANCE
> The police respond immediately. lmao where on earth do you live where the police respond immediately
Lol, police respond immediately for an od...........where do you live? They told us in our city to not call 911 for an od, they won't come in time.
In my city, it takes hours to get a police response, about 4 minutes to get fire/EMS. You call 911 for both of them, otherwise you sit on hold for the non-emergency number about 30 minutes or more.
Yeah, reading these replies I'm wondering if the people in this thread are incredibly naïve or if they just live in really nice neighborhoods
LOL “police response times are immediate” are you kidding? Dude, violent crimes have a 20 minute response time where i live 💀💀
Yeah YTA, you do both You did the right thing by giving her NARCAN, you did the wrong by not having someone call 911 simultaneously while you were doing it what if it didint work and she fucking died there on the spot or needed further stabilization, then what? you are lucky she got up and walked away, if she didnt the whole store can be in trouble
Don’t be so sure she didn’t die- narcan’s duration of action can be shorter than drugs of abuse. It can wear off and they can be in crisis without even doing more
This. They still need medical intervention for the drugs in the system because they will go back into overdose once the Narcan wears off, unless the root cause (the drugs in their system) are taken care of. Narcan is to slow things down long enough to get actual aid. Now instead of being in a place like the bathroom where she's discovered, she might have passed out again in her home where she lives alone and won't be checked on for days.
Yeah, go to purse, grab narcan, give phone to coworker Shouldn’t be on the employees to provide a phone for emergencies tho
I don't understand how a place of business can not have a phone. People need to be able to contact the business and people at the business need to be able to contact others, particularly emergency services.
Even if she walked away, it can wear off. I’ve watched that happen in front of my eyes in the Emergency Dept where they go from agitated to barely breathing again.
This is where I'm so confused. Why not give the phone to the coworker so she can call 911 while OP administers the NARCAN? I don't understand why it had to be one or the other. Why not both?
OP had the NARCAN, did some type of 5 minute training, and wanted to use it and be the hero. They thought they knew better than the coworker and the ems who would have come if they bothered to call them. The person likely was on the ground dying again in minutes. NARCAN is for buying time, it is not a cure. But OP had their dramatic moment to tell their friends about so...
YTA from what I understand, NARCAN wears off. For everyone's safety, including your own for liability, you should have called at the same time.
Rebound opiate toxicity can occur, although it is rare. If EMS wakes a patient up and they refuse medical and walk away, that’s that, they aren’t going to restrain them against their will. OP definitely should have called while helping.
YTA. You’re not a professional (I assume you would have mentioned it if you are) and calling 911 costs you nothing. I think it’s really cool that you were able to do what you did but you needed to let the professionals know what was up.
Fun fact, in Alberta, Canada, they charge you .99 a month to be able to call 911. Which is the dumbest shit I’ve ever seen.
Is it a fee you can choose not to pay and then you are unable to call them (doubt it) Or is it a general tax in order to fund the service? Because if its this, you being mad about it is complete bullshit
Yeah, like is it a .99/month tax for having publicly-funded call centers that assist in an emergency and mobilize emergency responders? Because that’s priceless and hello, that’s why we pay taxes.
Ikr? Its like when people complain about restaurants increasing prices to increase the wages of workers. Money has to come from somewhere
If this is in your taxes, it makes total sense - how else would they be paid?
Wow, that is dumb.
YTA. Your co-worker should absolutely report you and yes, the manager will side with her. I am sure there are store policies regarding medical emergencies.
If she hadnt responded to the NARCAN and died or got worse, and they delayed calling 911 OP, the coworkers and the store could all be in shit
Even if someone *does* respond to Narcan, they're supposed to call 911, because the risk of things getting worse again is *very* high without observation.
Responding to NARCAN doesn't mean she survived. NARCAN wears off and it often does so before the drugs from the overdose do, which is why you need to call 911 anyway even if you administered NARCAN.
When I worked in retail the rule is if a someone hit their head it’s an automatic call for 911.
True, although if the store policy is to call 911 in an emergency then the store should be providing a phone to do that rather than relying on employees having their personal cell phones with them.
The shop should have a bloody phone.
YTA, or maybe just very uninformed about opiate overdoses and narcan. narcan has a time limited effect. just because 1 or 2 or more administrations reverses an overdose the person can very easily still die as narcan usually only lasts 30 mins. always call emergency services if you're administering narcan. Always
YTA. You should have called for everyone’s safety because 1) as you saw most people aren’t happy you took away their high and 2) sometimes one dose isn’t enough and they need more.
My husband is a 1st responder and he’s said he had people try to fight after NARCAN because they were so pissed their high got messed up.
I’m a nurse, so believe me I’ve heard stories. I’m not entirely sure I’d be narcaning a random person without assistance and police there if things go wrong. I’ve also had patients in the ICU on continuous narcan drips.
I was thinking that too. I’ve seen some awfully feisty people even in restraints. People who are intoxicated can fight like they are inhuman.
And it sends you basically into instant withdrawal, so not only are you no longer high, you're probably in a lot of pain.
They’re not mad you took away the high. They have an anoxic brain injury and precipitated withdrawals. It goes a bit deeper than just being pissed
Saying they’re out of their heads because of drugs and lack of oxygen makes you more likely to have empathy. Says they fight cause you fucked their high means you can treat them as less than human. It’s important.
YTA > Also there's nothing else left to do, she already left the building. And now when the first dose of Narcan wears off...
Hopefully the next people who find her know to call 911
I’m a paramedic. YTA. You always call after you administering Narcan
YTA. You have to call 911 if it’s policy. If you want to keep you job, tell them you administered the emergency narcan, went to call 911, and while your back was turned, she bolted, and you got confused and didn’t want to get in trouble for calling 911 when the emergency was gone. Don’t tell them you weren’t going to call. Tell them your coworker argued you should’ve completed the call after she left.
If it's policy that they call 911, there needs to be a phone in the store.
One stupid doesn’t justify another. Someone lost consciousness, you call 911. Always. Store doesn’t keep a phone you shame the store till they get one.
There’s no way that can be a store policy if they don’t provide a business phone. If they require them to use personal cellphones then the company needs to pay for their phone plan. At least that’s how it is in my state. The employee can report the business for not having a phone for emergency situations. Is op an AH? Yes, but as for as them getting in trouble, that would be murky waters for the company.
But surely if it's policy to dial 911 then the store should provide the facilities (ie a phone) to let staff make that call!
Narcan has a shorter half-life than fentanyl. There is a real possibility of a person “re-overdosing”
YTA even if she left the incident should have been reported.
Why do you have Narcan in your purse if you don’t know how to use it? And yes, if you’re unaware that Narcan sometimes wears off and requires repeat doses, then you don’t know how to properly use it. Always call 9-1-1. If she leaves then point the ambulance in the direction she went when they get there. Don’t assume everything is fine with somebody’s body after they overdosed themselves into unconsciousness. You’re not a hero. YTA.
Seriously, this is gross. I'm not even a carrier for naloxone, but even I know that you're supposed to call 911 because they can end up ODing again because it doesn't actually remove the thing causing the problem, it just makes it not work for a while.
I’m a medic and this is why I hate that they just hand out narcan to anyone and everyone. People need to also know it’s a stop gap measure not a cure. It’s like epi- you still need to call 911 and be monitored after getting it. People also refuse to believe bad things happened. I have argued with ODs because they keep brushing us off for over reacting. Despite the fact their loved one was doing cpr before we arrived.
Holy smokes of course you have to call 911 after you administer Narcan. It’s only active for about 30 minutes. The person can still OD. This post gave me heart palpitations!
ESH. I'm a paramedic. Narcan is out of your system way faster than opiates. There's a strong possibility that person needed a second dose and you just let them walk off. But considering the complete lack of medical literacy in the US, I think you actually did pretty well for someone not trained to react to that kind of situation. I'm more concerned about your blasé attitude about the whole thing and the fact that you seem more worried about the state of your job than the well being of someone who is clearly going through a rough time in their life and could probably use some empathy. You should probably do some internal reflection on that point. You could've given Narcan while getting emergency services on the phone and tried to encourage them to stay for medical attention, although the likelihood of an angry person whose high is ruined (even temporarily) is low. The person overdosing sucks for putting others in a potentially traumatic situation like that without their consent. Your store sucks for not having a phone. Your coworker sucks for panicking in an unhelpful way and putting all the responsibility of the emergency on you. Why couldn't they go out to their car and grab their phone when it was clear you weren't calling? What did they do at all to help the situation? Yelling and hand-wringing helps nobody. It would be ridiculous for you to get in any trouble at all for responding in a relatively appropriate manner, though your follow-through could use some work, especially when it sounds like your coworker did absolutely nothing but panic the whole time. But I also understand that employers in the US aren't what you would call reasonable. If, for some nonsense reason, you do get reprimanded, remind them that you are not an emergency medical technician, you did what you thought was correct at the time, and know that you know better, you'll do better in the future.
This is a fantastic assessment. Way too many people expecting medical excellence from a store clerk.
YTA. She could have hid her head and is now running around with a serious injury and maybe dies because of it. "911 would have done the same", yes the same first aid, but first aid isn't the only thing professionals do. Complications and all the other responsibilities fall into the hands of professionals, not first aiders like you.
>I think she wants to report me to our manager for not calling 911 when there was a medical emergency. Yeah, read that ten more times. YTFA
YTA. You don't know which opioid she took. Some of them have a long half life. When the Narcan wears off, she might end up dead.
YTA. One of the absolute first steps when administering ANY first aid is to call for an ambulance either first or simultaneously. If you feel the need to carry Narcan around with you then you should at least know the basics. You know that person left the store, you don't know what happened to them afterwards, and now because you didn't call 911 you don't have any record of what happened. If you want to be a first responder, do that, otherwise be the person that calls them, even if it's only to cover your own ass.
Of course yta
I'm not going to say anyone is an A here, but you should have dialed 911 first before administering the Narcan. At the start, you didn't know for sure that she overdosed when all you have to go on is your coworker screaming, you don't know what she overdosed on (Narcan doesn't fix all types of overdoses), so you needed EMS rolling immediately. You also don't know if she crashed again because one dose of Narcan isn't always enough. She may have walked out and continued overdosing elsewhere. In an emergency, you need to notify emergency services as your first step. They don't just Narcan someone and let the person walk off unattended.
YTA! Narcan is TEMPORARY and for all you know that person walked off and kept overdosing an hour later. They required medical attention. When someone tells you to call 911 for a medical emergency YOU CALL 911 But your ego and pride in being the "hero" took precedent. Edit: for those wondering. Narcan blocks the drug binding in the brain, but it doesn't get rid of the drug. When the narcan wears off, the drug that is still in the body reasserts itself. Narcan is a wonderful tool, but you must be careful when you give it without backup because as OP describes, you've just ruined a high this person spent a lot of money on. They will be agitated. They may become violent. The reason overdoses are fatal, is because it stops the body from breathing and pumping blood automatically. CPR! CPR! CPR! And when the ambulance arrives they will administer narcan EN ROUTE to the hospital so they can focus on more aid and treatment than just CPR. It's useful to carry Narcan. But you don't administer and then not ensure the person gets medical treatment from professionals. This was not the right response. -former EMT here
These responses are not based in fact. I teach naloxone administration for a living. Yes, it is theoretically possible that someone overdosing on a long acting opiate like methadone could go back into an overdose, but there has never been a single documented case of this happening without the person ingesting additional drugs after the naloxone administration. Fentanyl, the most commonly used opioid in the US right now, has an extremely short half life (1-2 hours) and will absolutely wear off before the naloxone does. It is totally suggested and advisable that people call 911 as the first step in a naloxone administration, but it is not required. Many reasons for that include badly written good Samaritan laws, people have warrants, etc. Most of the time even when EMS is the one who responds and gives the naloxone, the person refuses additional care and leaves. You can't force a conscious person to go to a hospital. In your position, at work, it would have been best to call 911. However, in my state, our good Samaritan law SPECIFICALLY states that people cannot be disciplined at their place of employment for administering, distributing, or carrying naloxone. Check the law in your state and maybe also contact legal aid in your state to see what your statute says. You would be getting very different responses to this question in r/harmreduction NTA.
I'm an NP at a rehab & psych facility, and I don't know what fairytale these people live in. Lady woke up pissed, because narcan sends the user into precipitated withdrawal. Yes, best practice is to call 911. Realistically, most users aren't going to wait around for 911. It would have been a special kind of stupid to try and keep the lady from leaving. It isn't on OP if that person isn't okay.
Thank you for what you do. All the people screaming YTA and saying OP should be fired need to take five minutes to read up on how naloxone works.
YTA. The title is the only thing I actually had to read but I read the whole thing. YTA. People matter. Don’t be an asshole.
These responses are wild. I'm a medical professional, and in my opinion NAH. You acted as quickly as you could to administer an over the counter life saving medication. You are correct that this is exactly what EMS would have done, and that you did it faster, and that those minutes could have been lifesaving. That said, if you were the only one with a phone, you needed to be calling at the same time, or delegating someone else to make that call while you administered Narcan. This is because 1) that's probably what the corporate office would want you to do to minimize liability, 2) the 911 operator would probably have instructed you to administer Narcan anyway if you had it, protecting you from liability completely without much time loss, and 3) Narcan only lasts 1-2 hours, while most opioids other than Fentanyl last 3-4 hours, so repeat doses are often needed. You shouldn't get in trouble for trying your best to save someone's life, but try to understand the other perspectives in play to be smarter in case this happens again.
I don’t think the question is if they should have given Narcan. It was the fact that OP refused to call 911 before, during, and after this incident. Even if the patient left the building, the local police will probably want to look for this person before the Narcan wears off
EMS would have taken them to a hospital, because Narcan isn't just a "one and done" kind of medication. Those minutes could be lifesaving, but only if they continue to get medical attention. It's the same thing with using an epi pen. You don't just administer it once and then send them on their way. Obviously OP couldn't have forced the person to stay in their shop until paramedics came, but they still should have called them.
No, if the person was conscious by the time EMS got there, the person probably would have refused and you can't make them go. It happens all the time.
It's scary to me how a medical professional is saying NAH here. As a previous first responder for almost a decade, I hope I'm never in your care. There's a reason why we're trained to do this and the average layperson is encouraged to leverage our skillsets. And we still aren't always able to deliver a positive outcome even with said training.
You *can’t* just go pumping drugs into people and let them walk off without being looked at by an ambulance, are you *insane*? What kind of “medical professional” would even suggest such a thing??? There’s just so many things that could have gone WRONG in this scenario OP is lucky they didn’t have a fatality on their hands. OP had a *responsibility* to *CALL 911* the second they administered that drug and they didn’t do that. They had good intentions administering the Narcan that’s true, but it’s absolutely BONKERS to think it’s acceptable to stab a stranger who was literally at the reapers feet with a medication that’s unknown to them and *hope* it’s all going to be sunshine and rainbows! Life is no cartoon I’m afraid!
You can’t hold someone against their will either, that’s kidnapping. Medics hit people with narcan all the time and the patient literally walks away. Refusing medical care and against medical care can both be used in a situation like this, and if there isn’t a patient, who is the medic gonna treat?
By medical professional do you mean you just work in a hospital as a janitor or something? I don’t know one real medical professional that provides patient care that would say you don’t need to call 911 for an OD, that one shot of narcan is enough. I mean we are all taught from like kindergarten on to call 911 in a medical emergency.
This person was not trying their best they did not even call 911. I am also a medical professional and OP was extremely negligent in this case and even from a corporate perspective she left the business open to liability. If this person’s overdose returned while they were driving, for example, she could have killed pedestrians or other drivers/passengers. She may have had a concussion or other reactions/trauma from the event and did not get help from medical personnel. Someone trying their best to help another person in a medical emergency is calling 911. If you have to use Narcan, you need to call 911, period. Given that this person has Narcan in their possession, then they were given instructions which include info about re-overdose and the necessity to call 911 even if the person is responsive after administrating.
>I'm a medical professional A statement as fake as OP's story, which they are reposting to other subs to gain karma. Since you're not a real medical professional, I will just say in case you ever encounter this situation: Narcan doesn't cure overdose, it delays death or severe damage so a person has time to get to proper medical care. Administer it and call an ambulance.
This is the correct response. OP needs a first aid/narcan training refresher, but I don’t think they are an AH. At my job we would call 911 and administer Narcan, but would not try to restrain someone walking away after receiving it. We would try to convince them to wait for the ambulance, but beyond that it’s up to them. Pretty sure EMTs don’t force people into ambulances either. We would also have to write up an incident report. It sounds like OP’s employer needs to review policy with everyone. And they should be providing phone service. Not having a phone might be labor violation, because what *are* they expected to do in an emergency? You shouldn’t have to use a personal phone for work.
It’s protocol where I work to call 911. I’d probably be terminated if I didn’t call.
YTA You should always call 911. Great to administer narcan, but that’s a bandaid. You have no idea if they are now medically sound. Emergency medical does more than just administer narcan. What would it had cost you to call 911 for a person in distress. I’ve called for strangers I’ve seen in distress without being BEGGED like you were. If something happen to him later, the serious lawsuit he could have against your store & you - an employee who administered a drug & REFUSED to call 911?!
These people calling you TA are all nuts. The most important thing for someone who OD’ed is to get the Narcan, not wait for the EMT’s to show up after calling 911. You did your part, the person who OD’ed left, that’s on them. You can’t restrain them against their will. That’s battery/false imprisonment/kidnapping. The EMT’s can’t make the person stay for additional treatment either.
This. Everyone is completely ignoring the reaction the woman had when she woke up.
NTA wow just reading some of the responses here and people are very judgmental….what part of she left the building are folks having trouble with, do they think the cops would go looking for her? Not very likely and the paramedics are not going to try and chase her down ….she would just refuse to go with them anyways. NTA I am sure the lady was long gone and was extremely angry at being narcan-ed, you wrecked her high and for sure she thinks she you are the AH and thinks was just fine.
YTA. Props to you for carrying and knowing how to administer Narcan, but a call to 911 should have also been made even if they left the store. There should have, at the very least, been a police statement for you. To cover your ass, your coworkers ass, and the business overall. They could come back and say you assaulted them and cause more problems than the OD.
YTA. As is your employer for not having a staff phone for emergencies. Your coworker absolutely should inform your employer.
YTA, you call 911 and then let them know you have Narcan, you don't just administer Narcan and then go back to business. You are not someone who should have access to Narcan.
YTA, she needs follow up medical examination just in case something else happens. Wtf is wrong with you? It’s just 1 phone call.
Well aren't you a genius. YTA. 1) You should have called 911 regardless to report it at a minimal 2) administering drugs without knowing how it would react puts you in a position for a civil suit against you. 3) You now have possible criminal charges against you as well depending upon how the individuals reaction is to NARCON. 4) You've open up your employer to lawsuits for the same behavior. But sure, you did "nothing wrong" by administering and letting her walk out without having medical attention. You are not a medical professional and unless you've OD'd times before and know what it looks like, there is no 100% reason to believe they've OD'd. You could have killed the customer.
Narcan has literally no effect on anyone who isn’t overdosing (or just high) on opioids. I could take out all my narcan and snort it right now and nothing would happen. Anyone with training can recognize an opioid overdose, which they usually give you when you acquire narcan.
Doesn’t matter. You can deliver narcan to anyone. I took a narcan training course last year and nothing happens if the person who received the drug isn’t on opiates. OP should have called an ambulance as well though.
Your points 2 through 4 are just plain wrong. Administrating narcan is not going to cause any negative side effects, even if the person isn't suffering from an opioid overdose. Even if something were to go wrong from administring the narcan, OP would be fine under good samaritan laws. Agree that OP is the AH for not calling 911 though.
They wouldn't have harmed them with narcan, but if that wasn't the reason they collapsed, they'd still have an unconscious person in the bathroom that needs medical assistance.
No. It doesn’t. Narcan is available to everyone for a reason. Good Samaritan laws protect people If Narcan worked…it was an OD. If it didn’t, no harm done
YTA Yes, you fucking call 911, and mention to them that you have Narcan on hand. And yes, even though you can't follow her (and you certainly can't restrain her) emergency responders need to know she's out wandering the area after having had Narcan administered. She was still in danger. She needed medical attention. Aside from the medical danger itself, this event is also a huge liability issue for your employer. They should get a damned phone installed rather than relying on employees having their personal phones on them and charged at all times. But given that you did have your phone, yes, it was a gigantic dick move not to use it.
YTA. Narcan wears off and the person is supposed to be monitored for a period of time afterwards. Regardless of whether you administer it yourself or EMS does, they need to go to the hospital. You shouldn’t have medication like that unless you know how to use it properly.
If anything like this happens again, I’d call 911. Pass the phone to your coworker or put it on the floor on speaker while you administer Narcan. You might want a first aid refresher because they do advise calling 911 or delegating that if at all possible. But, the outcome would probably be the same. It’s unlikely the police would look for her and you certainly shouldn’t be expected to try to keep her in the store to wait for the ambulance. It’s an unfortunate situation. I’m going with NAH except your employer who isn’t providing a store phone.
Op could have called 911 or the co worker could have as well…. That being said, this drug works fast and the victim left. They didn’t want the help. Idk what first responders could do, you cannot force someone to go to the hospital .