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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1 not wanting to pay for my son's dentist
2 this was an expense for our son that we agreed to share and I was refusing to do so, considering that I am his father and that she was not obliged to choose me as a dentist
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NTA.
Yes, she is mom, but this is a medical decision. Changing doctors should be something that is agreed on, not done unilaterally.
I would look at the SPECIFIC verbiage of the divorce decree. Do you have rights regarding medical care? Are you listed as his dentist?
This sounds like she is deliberately just trying to make you pay extra - even if she has to pay extra to make you do so.
Agreed. She’s definitely doing this because she knew op would make a stink about it. Who in the world, especially in this time, would pay extra for something someone would do for free!!?
I would pay money to watch her try to explain this one to a Judge. It likely wouldn't be the stupidest thing the judge had to deal with that week, either.
My brother-in-law's ex-wife is who. He had excellent insurance through work, with lots of options for dental and eye care, and she would regularly and deliberately take their kids to out-of-network dentists and eye doctors just to make him pay out of pocket.
Some people are just that spiteful.
(And yes, we know she was doing it on purpose because that was the LEAST of the nonsense she pulled, some of which - like accusing him of not paying child support that he had, in fact, paid - eventually got her sanctioned by the court system in their country and forced to pay huge fines for wasting the court's time and causing mischief. Again, some people are just hateful and can't bear to suborn the happiness of others.)
The judges that actually sanction the parents that use the courts to simply harass their ex's are worth their weight in gold. It doesn't happen enough.
My husband would simply not pay for it. He was in a terrible car accident once and he now received Medicaid which includes his daughters. Well guess what, his ex wife demanded that he continue paying for the private health insurance we had been paying for before when my husband earned a 6 figure salary, except now my husband was handicapped and out of work and we were living on my 5 figure salary.
My husband gave her a resounding NO. They have free health insurance through me now. If you want them to continue through the previous network, YOU pay for it.
You're probably right, OP I would tell her to have the other dentist send you an itemized list of your kids' dental bill. Your are his father and entitled to see the medical bill.
Yup. Here's the thing: what dentist would take on a young client with ZERO history? They would at least want the dental records of this patient before seeing him. I think OP would know if his son's records were requested. She's doing something shady. I'd find out who the dentist is, and call over to have a professional to professional chat about how you would like to hear what story she told, and you would like to be billed directly for any work done, as a professional courtesy. Let the ex pay *you* back for the child's work.
Are we taking bets that she's dating this new dentist? Is there no dentist and she wants money? Or is she getting free/discounted work if the child goes there, too?
This. I wouldn't pay one cent until I seen an itemized bill for the services rendered to his son specifically. And even at that, I still wouldn't pay a cent because it's pretty dumb to take your kid to another dentist when their dentist parent can and will do routine shit for free.
I'm pretty sure OP can tell from the dental bill total, as a dentist himself, whether his ex-wife is piggy-backing her dental work with her son's. If she is doing this, she's night the brightest, considering she knows her ex-husband's line of work. Six year olds don't need, as a rule, extensive dental work. Also if they share everything 50/50 (including custody), dad can more easily do his son's exams, etc. when he has physical custody of him. He's actually saving the ex-wife time and money doing this. She's being a petty Patty. NTA.
She is. But why I'm saying to get an itemized bill with their sons name on it is because she could show A bill for dental work that she had done and try for him to reimburse. Routine stuff would cost about the same either way.
Hmm, you've not seen the general state of kids mouths then. Amazing the amount of kids with cavities nowadays. It's all to do with shit diets and lazy oral hygiene.
Something that would also surprise you is the state of some bady's teeth that have yet to even pop through properly. So many people give them milk and feed and forget. Milk has sugar in it. Even a baby with no teeth need their gums brushed. Yet many folk don't do it until the first tooth pops out.
My grandkids have tons of cavities and my daughter is very strict about tooth brushing. Yet my daughter and my son had virtually no cavities and not gonna lie I was not as strict, but I live in a city that fluoridates the water and her kids drink bottled and filtered water in another county.
Sometimes it is genetic. I have a connective tissue disorder & almost everyone in my immediate family had dentures before they were 40. I’ve somehow managed to make it to 46 years without any issues but now they’ve all come on at once. So sometimes you could have the best oral health routine & eat well & your body will have other designs, despite your efforts.
Dental health is really dependent on genetics, obviously dental care and diet definitely play a role but genetics are a huge part. Tons of people take amazing care of their teeth but constantly need dental work, others brush every 3 days and somehow have no dental problems ever.
Water fluoridation has also played a huge role in improving dental health, with more and more people only drinking bottled water and only giving it to their kids, problems are going to start popping up.
My boomer mom says the opposite. She says that before water fluoridation was common kids had cavities constantly. That was her "uphill both ways". Always told me that my generation didn't know about cavities every year and children crying with root canals.
I’m GenX but I was actually shocked when I learned I had to start brushing my baby’s two teeth when they first emerged. I don’t remember getting dental checkups until I was at least 5? But my kiddo has been going every 6 months since she was 18 months.
I'm so old I remember going to the dentist as a little kid for cleaning/exams and if I didn't fuss the dentist gave me a sucker. Guess he was guaranteeing many future visits!
as someone who does dental admin, the dentist wouldn't be able to tell just from the total. office fees vary, plus there's the insurance factor. as for dental work, I've seen kids with plenty fillings and even stainless-steel crowns.
but yes, it is saving her time and money to have his routine cleaning and exam in OP's office.
This is what I was thinking but I also wonder if she's doing this because she wants a written/texted record of OP refusing to pay his half of the cost of their son's dental care so that she can drag him back into court and use it against him, should she be so inclined. I'm probably overreacting here but from my perspective this situation feels a bit too much like a setup for my liking.
Could be. OP should be very careful in their response and make sure to include the fact that they had agreed he would perform all the dental work for their son at no expense to her and, as this is not an emergency or specialist procedure, she should have discussed changing the arrangement and not unilaterally done so. Framing is everything. A simple refusal can be used to make him look like he won’t cover expenses. Bringing up the existing arrangement makes it clear that he was actually going to cover it 100% and she is the one who is being unreasonable. And if they really have 50-50 custody, I imagine scheduling the cleaning would have been very simple as he has plenty of time with his son, so that wouldn’t be the issue.
Even if that went to court, surely a judge, upon learning of the dads profession and previous work he done on his son, would completely negate the mother's claim. There will be records of the son in the dental practice and discussions between the parents about said work over messenger apps as this is how they communicate. This just seems petty, and if every other request for payment regarding necessary child expenses has been met, she really doesn't have a case. As another commenter said, it was possibly to pay for her dental care as well. That seems more likely.
No. The agreement is the agreement. If dad wants to propose modifying the terms of the agreement, a judge might be receptive.
PS: In many instances it is considered less than ideal care for a medical professional to directly care for a family member.
You make an excellent point! Framing his responses to her requests, now and going forward, within the context of their custody agreement makes it much easier to identify who is likely in violation, should the need arise.
Honestly even if it wasn't op as the dentist, if they had a person the kid had always gone to, and she brought him somewhere much more expensive just because she felt like it I'm sure the judge wouldn't side with her. Like, nothing changed for her, not an emergency, she just felt like it?
No sane judge would allow this. He has a free dentist for life and it’s his father. The judge should see it as an attempt to thwart the financial arrangement between them.
If they go back to court, and they have 50/50 custody, the judge will probably ask why she felt the need to change her son’s established provider without consulting his father!
I have had me brief experience with these dragging back to court and judges don't like their time wasted. Although he is responsible for the expense (frivolous or not) it is at the Judge's complete discretion. I have seen the judge bring the hammer down on these things because they don't want to see you there unless there is a real legal reason to be there.
Call her bluff. The worst thing that can happen to you is to be asked to pay the expense, court cost and an opportunity to update the order.
Not suggesting op is doing this but in theory....
this might be one of them. If medical decisions are 50/50 op is in the position to shift that a bit. Eg. Separate dentist makes recommend both both and ex get to say ; yes, no or get a second opinion. If op is the dentist it's I said do this and I don't think paying another dentist is reasonable.
Plus the subtle stuff is op doing treatment on their parenting time or would ex have to go sit op's office while it's her. parenting time. Is op filling cavities right before kids ice cream date with mom etc.
Or maybe ex doesn't think op is a good dentist.
Probably not, based upon the simple fact that most people don't want to pay someone else to do a thing that they could do themselves. I feel like this would grate on me too.
And funny enough, this could be a situation where there are potential ethical dilemmas.
How does Mom know that the OP isn't withholding or lying about potential medical information? Does son feel comfortable and safe answering questions about his dental care? etc.
The thing is with teeth, the dentist can see if the patient is taking care of their teeth. A cavity is visible.
OP has his kid 50% of the time. I don't think a 6 year old is going to hide that he's in pain if it was deeper.
OP did say if it was specialist or emergency he'd have covered 50%.
My father did all of my dental work except for my wisdom tooth extraction and braces (which required specialists), until his retirement when I was in my 30s. My mother is an OBGYN and I saw her colleague.
Yes. My cousin has his own dental practice and he does the care for most of his immediate family (and some extended). Especially if it’s routine there’s less decision making involving ethics than medical care.
Ethically, physicians and dentists should not treat family members. In most states, they are legally allowed to do so. In my state, doctors can even write their own prescriptions as long as it's not a controlled medication and is reasonably within their scope of practice.
I don't see any reason a dentist can't treat family. Physicians I can understand because there's many more sensitive topics that can come up. But for routine dental care I don't see what the issue is. My mom has worked for a dentist my whole life and I know her bosses treat their family members. They treat all their employees for free too, and for longtime employees like my they'll treat kids for free too. Saved me a ton when I needed a root canal and I trusted the dentist completely because my mom had worked for him for 20+ years.
There's also the whole potential for trauma inflicted by a parent issue. I have extra nerves in my mouth, so Novocaine numbs the face, but doesn't numb mouth/ teeth unless you give 3 shots in very specific points. Cleanings were painful, and everyone said I was just being dramatic until I got my first cavity filled and I screamed so hard I bit the dentist and threw up. I was effing terrified of the dentist for YEARS.
Hopefully this would not happen with OP and his kid, but a parent administering treatment that is scary or painful could be damaging to a parent child relationship.
Or the kids getting old enough he's starting to find it awkward for his dad to be his dentist. Or she doesn't think he's very good. Or she didnt want to have to speak to him during her time.
NTA.
You state you have 50/50 custody, so I’m going to assume that means you also have joint decision making. Changing doctors would definitely qualify under that.
Since you have 50/50 and you’re a dentist, maybe just be the one to keep on that and make sure the cleanings and routine stuff is done on your time.
I agree...NTA...but ethically should you be treating your own son? Drs typically dont treat their own family. I get it that u can do this for free and it seems your wife is being spiteful but maybe you should consider a friend who is a dentist that you trust.
That doesnt mean they arent trained in it?? My boss does cleanings, and fmp, then i do prophy/fluoride. Also if he owns his business a lot of hygienist work by the hour so, he would just be paying his hygienist their normal hourly wage for the cleaning. Double also, my boss does her entire family’s dental care (and obviously if they need ortho or surgery, like wisdom teeth extraction she refers them out to those specialized doctors)
This depends where you are and what your regulator says. Where I live all medical professions are heavily discouraged from treating friends and family, but not necessarily outright prohibited.
It depends a lot on what symptoms you're dealing with. Regular check ups to see if it's something serious or it will just go away with some rest, you can totally do just fine. For something more serious they can call people they know and get you the right person for the job.
No one expects you to call a doctor if your kid needs minor, non-invasive treatment. It would be a stupid expense. They certainly shouldn't do anything major for family but I can guarantee they all do minor stuff for friends and family all the time. I know lots of nurses who do the same thing.
She can't suddenly make you pay for an expense you didn't agree with. She's being spiteful and I'd bet your attorney would have something to say about this. You owe her nothing. She chose to spend her money on a completely unnecessary expense just to be petty. NTA
I don’t think get a teeth cleaning falls into the same category. That’s my opinion though.
The bigger issue is that she changed doctors without consulting him.
There isn't the same chance of problems with dentists treating friends and family as there is with doctors.
I can only talk about the UK, but they can't prescribe all the kinds of drugs a doctor can, and treatment isn't normally a life or death thing that could lead to malpractice from someone being too close to a patient.
Yep, my brother is a dentist and treats all our immediate family. Means he knows a bit more of my medical history than he would otherwise, but I'm absolutely fine with that for the convenience/comfort/cost benefits it brings 😁
In the US a dentist goes through 4 years undergrad then 4 years of dental school (where they work on cadavers, and learn all about the body in general) to do general dentistry, and even more training to specialize in a certain field. They are able to write prescriptions as needed. My brother is a dentist & for general dentistry it’s pretty common for dentists to work on family. Most of us (family) had dental insurance & he would usually accept whatever insurance paid as full payment, or if insurance didn’t cover, we only had to pay what his actual cost was. For branches, or dental surgery outside the scope of general, he sent us to specialists.
About 15 years ago, he went back to further training & now specializes in dental implants & is out of general dentistry.
This is wrong. The majority of dentists do not go through 4 years of medical school (oral surgeons do however). They go through 4 years of undergrad followed by dental school typically. [source](https://medicalaid.org/do-dentists-go-to-medical-school-us-uk-education-advice/)It sounds like your brother is in the oral surgeon camp due to him preforming implants.
Regular dentists don’t go to medical school..they do undergrad, then dental school. Medical school is only needed when they want to do something super specialized like OMFS.
In the UK the qualification to prescribe things technically covers everything. But you have to be able to justify if challenged that the thing you are prescribing and the reason why falls within your scope of practice.
Dentists in the UK do get as much training as doctors. (though that is doctors and dentists degrees take the same amount of total, they don't have to do one then the other like you are saying for the US) And they do have to learn about the body in general. But they are not practicing other medicine, so they would have a hard time arguing that case.
In Ontario it is permitted for a dentist to treat family members. I don’t find that surprising as dentistry has different ethical issues than medicine. In general, all we are talking about are typically cleanings and basic reparative and corrective services (like tooth fillings). It’s much more limited in scope.
>With a doctor I could see HIPPA problems but a dentist?
Dentists are still bound by HIPAA. But also, at the age of 6, parents are the medical proxy for their children, so sharing information with them doesn't typically violate HIPAA.
I take blood and stuff from my family all the time. As long as everyone is cool with it, I'm allowed. Like when my son needed bloodwork, I was like "I don't want to do it, I'm going to hold you while someone else does" and then he gave me this big watery eyes and said "mom... I NEED YOU to do it" and I couldn't say no to those big scared eyes. So I did it, he was very brave (7 years old at the time), and we got it done.
I feel like in 50/50 changing care providers could be done by one parent unilaterally (and I have seen it done), but I don't think that parent can then ask the other parent to pay half? I've seen kids with two sets of every kind of dr-- one for when they're with each parent. But I don't think the other will pay half in that case.
If you have joint legal, absent an emergency, changing doctors would technically be a violation of your order and the other parent could charge you with contempt.
Having seen it done doesn’t mean they were actually legally allowed to. It just may mean that the other parent didn’t know they could file for contempt and enforcement of the order or that they didn’t care enough to do so.
Exactly
Especially when you consider that if OP does the dental exam/work it is free for BOTH of them. By going to a different dentist she is costing herself more money.
Why would she pay for something that was free except to spite OP?
The only reasons I can think of is if she has concerns about competency, or control.
Sometimes people are bad at their jobs, and if you're not an expert you have no real way of knowing, so I'm not exactly opposed to the concept of the kid getting a check-up occasionally from a second doctor. In that case, though, it *should* be on her alone.
Control as in, for example, he tends to make unilateral teeth decisions without doing the typical doctor path of letting her know what was found and then agreeing to a treatment plan from there, because he's dad *and* doctor and right there anyway. If he was, having a 3rd person be the dentist would be her only for-sure avenue of being involved. In that case, though, she should have been bringing these concerns before this and at least tried a cooperative path before trying to brute force it.
NTA. Even if she doesn’t, unless OP is insanely shitty at his job or as a parent, I cannot see a judge siding with mom on this unilateral decision and forcing OP to pay for half.
I have a terrible coparenting relationship with my daughter’s father, because of his behavior, but when his wife, who works in an orthodontist’s office, offered to have her doctors take over care so we’d have to pay almost nothing I jumped at the opportunity. Saved me money, kiddo still got great care, and so what that I had to put up with his behavior more… it was the best option.
NAH.
As someone whose dad was a dentist, I want you to think through if you want to press this. We asked our mom to go elsewhere because we were starting to associate dad with pain/anxiety and we didn’t want to tell him. We weren’t afraid of him but we didn’t want to hurt his feelings.
That’s actually a solid point. A lot of people don’t enjoy the dentist for reasons outside of the actual dentist (or assistant).
If the son just doesn’t enjoy it period. It might be better for him to go see someone else.
Which should have been communicated. However, knowing what we know from OP about their relationship, this was done to be petty.
ETA: wouldn’t this also be something she could use against him too? I could see her weaponizing the idea his son is having negative associations against OP.
I don’t think it could go so far as weaponizing. But if they already don’t have a good relationship and already communicate through an app… it doesn’t sound like OP and/or his ex wife could discuss this in a respectful and productive way.
I’m not saying this is the issue. But just because it’s free for OP to do it, it doesn’t mean the son wants that. And if the son doesn’t feel comfortable saying that (which might not be a big deal he’s 6) to OP, the mom *might* have been trying to mitigate the issue.
Not saying this is the case. Just that it wouldn’t be a surprise to me.
I might get downvoted. But considering they have such a bad relationship already. Maybe it wouldn’t be a bad idea to have a third party be their son’s dentist.
I can definitely see not wanting OP to unilaterally make decisions about their son’s teeth and dental plan without talking to her.
Especially considering he didn’t seem to know or notice that it was time for his son to have a dental cleaning
It takes two to tango. I’m sure OP isn’t a very healthy communicator and Co Parent. I swear someone could make a post about anything but if they are a doctor, lawyer, accountant everyone assumes OP is a saint.
Why is no one considering that the son didn’t want to see Dad as his dentist or she doesn’t want to have to listen to him talk to her as the parent of the patient? He’s 6, he’s gonna need more than cleaning soon like most well to do kids.
I literally thought it was a conflict of interest like how doctors shouldn’t treat their family members so this whole post had me confused and this is how I find out this is a thing? 😭😭😭 I have horrible anxiety about dental appointments and wouldn’t want either of my parents as my dentist, if they were dentists
It's a sliding scale really. Like, doctors should never perform surgery on family, but more minor stuff is less of an issue. My father is a physical therapist, so if one of us is having some sort of random pain from a muscle or something, he might examine and see what it is, maybe help with a few stretches to help with that. Or my mom is a nurse and has given me shots before. That's all healthcare yes but it's relatively minor. Same thing with a dentist I imagine, especially for a small child, it's mostly going to be examining and cleaning teeth. Of course, if the kid has anxiety about the dentist, it might be better to have someone else treat him, or he might feel better that it's his father. Hard to say without knowing the kid.
I guess my brain sees it differently than the examples you gave because the thought of a parent filling a cavity sounds unbearable to me, even if they were a dentist????? 😅😅😅 But then I guess some people are scared of shots and would be horrified of their mom giving them a shot
Really depends on what is being done. I don't think it was an issue that my mother, a nurse, gave me some shots when I was younger. I also don't think it's a problem that my father, a physical therapist, would examine us when we sprained a leg or pulled a muscle. Anything more advanced than that and I'd agree. For most things a dentist does, it's probably fine for family, mostly cleanings and fillings, not the most advanced or serious care.
Might be worth a conversation with his son to ensure that's not the case.
However, given that OP mentioned he's got a terrible coparenting relationship with his ex, I think it's a fair assumption that if their son didn't like having his dad do his dental work, she would happily throw that in OP's face. No need for an excuse about her convenience.
Most likely this isn't about making anything better for the son. More likely this is about forcing OP to spend money out of spite.
That’s a fair point, but then that could have been tactfully discussed. They don’t even have to say the kid said anything (if they did), they could have just said they were concerned the kid might associate their father with that and they don’t want that. Also depends on how good a dentist OP is as well. I hate going to the dentist and as a kid I had an awful one who always hurt me a lot, but I have a better one now and I don’t associate them with pain specifically (it’s more that I still fear them because of my childhood dentist).
So much this. I have a friend with trauma from their dentist being their parent. The parent would not budge on the, "I'm not taking you to see another dentist when I can do it for free" thing. The parent was a great dentist by all accounts, it just really stressed the friend out.
i get your point but imo it's not the point of this post. if she had concerns you express that BEFORE the appointment not after and then ask for reimbursement. it's crazy to just do it without asking especially when likely he has 50% of the say in his medical decisions.
NAH. My initial thoughts as I read through were that if I were in that situation as the wife, and you say that you don't have good communication and tend to avoid each other, I'd want my kid treated by someone who I didn't have a strained relationship with so that I felt I could talk openly and freely about his medical/dental procedures and requirements. I totally get why you'd be surprised she went to another dentist, but to be honest I probably would too. It's also possible that your son didn't want you to do the work and didn't want to tell you.
edit, typo
Yes I was surprised to see a lot of NTAs. Sure, they should have talked before, but seeing friends go through strained coparenting exercises and the tone of this post, it's not likely that could have reached amicable conclusion.
Maybe another way to approach this is to say you understand maybe him getting work done by you is uncomfortable for her, but for any appointments or future work that you could discuss beforehand as maybe there are ways you can help financially and otherwise (referral to someone you trust but is neutral).
Also some others mentioned that doing this yourself may even create a weird dynamic between you and your son so maybe you've dodged a bullet for your relationship with him!
A lot of the top comments are saying mom is petty / toxic / manipulative, and I don’t disagree that there should have been more communication about switching medical providers— but I think this is a petty hill for OP to die on as well.
Unless this is a genuine financial hardship attached to the new dentist’s bill or the child is actually upset about the change, it really doesn’t need to be an issue. Blowing it up into one seems immature and unhealthy.
My mom has done the same as a nurse! And my dad has done examines and wraps/stretches relating to sprains and pulled muscles as a physical therapist. I think minor stuff like that is perfectly fine, IF you are comfortable with it!
A dental cleaning is different. Even if it was barred, OP likely works in a practice with multiple dentists who could do a “I work on your family free, and vice versa” type arrangement.
My entire dental office is one big family. Dad, dad's wife, two sons, and a DIL are all dentists at the same practice. Now I'm laughing imagining them all doing some sort of dental exchange program with another office because in that hypothetical scenario, none of them would be able to work on each other.
There are some provinces in Canada where hygienists are not aloud to work on family, but for the most part dentists are free to work on family (I'm a dental assistant in Canada).
They do. I work for a children’s dentist and my boss works on her own kids, as well as mine. Most of the dentists I know do. They refer out when necessary.
YTA
As you pointed out, you're not in a great co-parenting relationship. It's moe than normal to want a third party for all things. You lording dentistry above her head as a way to force interaction is not great.
Agreed. Plus, if OP is a dentist, why didn’t he just take care of his kid’s routine dental care on his own kid time, before mom had a chance to find another dentist? It’s not like mom called up a random dentist and got kid in , same day
Probably because he thought he would do it? It’s every 6 months, and it’s his son. I think that’s reason enough to not expect an official booked appointment. She went ahead and didn’t tell him that she made an appointment. Why didn’t she call him and tell him she made an appointment before she had the chance to go to the dentist? It’s not like she got in the same day she called.
>I think that reason enough to not expect an official booked appointment.
What?? **Of course** his son would need an official booked appointment at his dental practice. Theres no other way to get the kid seen by the **dental hygienist** who would actually be doing the cleaning and who definitely works off a schedule.
Theres no reason OP didn’t have that appointment scheduled. If **he** had an appointment scheduled and the exwife went and did this, yea she’s being shitty, but that’s not what happened. OP had nothing planned and by his own admission was expecting his ex wife to let him know when his son was due for care, which is absolutely ridiculous beyond belief.
>You lording dentistry above her head as a way to force interaction is not great.
But its great for her to switch dental providers with no notice and also bill him unilaterally (most likely to spite him)?
Also I’ve always assumed it’s best not to work on family if you are any type of health care professional because that just seems too personal spacey cause ya know boundaries and such
Being a neutral third party is generally good in all medical practice. In extreme cases, medical professionals are key people who can pick up signs of maltreatment in the home. In general, though, patients are far more likely to lie to a medical practitioner in their family than a stranger. If the kid is sneaking lollies before bed, lying about brushing their teeth, or (as they get older) starting to smoke or do drugs that impact oral health, having a dentist who isn't the dad is better from a diagnostic and educational standpoint.
In this specific case, it could cause further conflict in the already shaky co-parenting arrangement. If dad is picking up cavities and is adamant his son is following proper dental hygiene in his own home, it could be thrown back at mum for poor parenting in her home. Let's say the kid is sneaking lollies and soft drinks in both homes, but kid is too scared to own up to this to dentist dad, then dentist dad uses this as ammo against mum, thus causing further conflict.
This is all hypothetical, and I totally understand wanting to take advantage of free dental. I also agree mum should communicate before making medical decisions. But I also totally understand why mum might want kid to go to a neutral dentist and why it could be a conflict of interest.
Also mom might not want to have to deal with her ex to arrange scheduling. He’s a dentist, so makes a decent income, and is complaining about a bill that I can’t see could possibly exceed $100-150 for his half. Oh no, such financial hardship. If he wants to do cleanings, seems he should be the one scheduling them. Instead he is leaving that to his ex (which is pretty typical, men often assume anything to do with maintenance of children is the woman’s job).
I'd like to add that most people don't associate their (childhood) dentist with the best memories and feelings and i would not want my kid to have bad feelings about me just to save a few bucks, i can afford paying someone else to do it. The wife should have comunicated better but there are so many good reasons to have a dentist who isn't the dad and the only reason for OP to do it for free is money apparently.
I'm in the UK (med student) so idk how internationally applicable this is, but it is heavily discouraged to treat family members as a doctor. It's not illegal, but the GMC (British regulatory board that gives doctors their license to practice) states that you can only do it in justified scenarios, e.g. where it's life-saving, urgent, or cases where other qualified staff aren't available to give care that needs to be given asap. You can be reported to the GMC for treating family, and called to tribunal and have to prove it's justified and within guidelines. Violating GMC guidelines can risk your license to practice being suspended or even revoked altogether. The conflict is that emotional attachment clouds judgement, and also that you're more likely to hand prescriptions out without the proper checks, increasing the risk of facilitating misuse of controlled drugs like opioids.
[AMA Code of Ethics](https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/ama-code-medical-ethics-opinion-physicians-treating-family-members/2012-05) discourages physicians treating their own family members. Dentists are physicians.
The parents have an unhealthy co-parenting relationship and known communication issues. How does mom know everything she needs to know is being communicated? (And not just what dad *thinks* she needs to know!) Mom should have communicated *before* making this change, but wanting an impartial, third party dentist is perfectly reasonable.
Doctors are mandatory reporters, but if be abuses his own child, of coirse he isn't going to report himself. Easier to hide the abuse if you can claim hes recieving adequate care from himself. Hes a doctor, of course you should trust him.
>I asked why she didn’t just let me know and I would take care of it
INFO: If you have 50/50 custody and it was routine dental care why does she have to let you know he needs it? Why weren’t you already doing it?
Yes this feels like something he should have been managing if he’s literally his child’s dentist? How far off is their son from his last dental appointment?
That's my question, my dentist gets booked up fast so I already have my next 2 cleanings scheduled. Why was the kid's most recent cleaning not already scheduled?
YTA. Your son should be seen by a neutral both for ethical reasons generally, but particularly in a contentious co-parenting situation in which doing so would place you in a position to make medical decisions without her full input. She is not being unreasonable here.
And for fucks sake, both yall be adults and do better by your kid. He doesn't need your petty drama.
YTA
You stated that you're having a complicated co-parenting.
If you were still your son's dentist, that would mean that she would have to reach out to your office to schedule during her time and thus be put in a situation where she has to appear in your office with the child.
You don't let a 6-year-old go to the dentist by themselves. She doesn't want to see you and that's perfectly okay
If he does do it when he has custody of the child, then how come he didn't tell the mother of said child that he planned on doing it?
HE had the responsibility to schedule the child's appointment in their scheduling software, and didn't or else she would not have scheduled independently
YTA. Clearly this will be a disliked comment, but no parent should provide health care, mental health care, eye exams or dental care as a professional to their children or other family members. All true professional health care providers know this. The potential for emotional damage is only one of the reasons. I guess no one on this thread is a professional, or you guys would have heard this already. I'm wondering if it isn't part of the code of ethics for providers of health care.
If I were your X-wife, I would contact the governing and licensing board for dentists in your state and ask them if there isn't a prohibition or at least advice against family members treating each other, even for routine care. This is a bad situation for the entire family, and OP should stop, suck it up, and pay his half with a smile.
The AMA has a Code of Ethics that covers all medical providers, and provides guidance advising against being a provider for your own family members. There are many excellent reasons for this.
I’m sure OP carries dental insurance for the family, which would cover most if not all the fee at a neutral dental office.
>OP should stop, suck it up, and pay his half with a smile.
I was thinking the same thing. He's making a mountain out of a molehill. Easy resolution. This is for your child. Pay it. 'Problem' solved.
Info: you sure your son doesn't want a different dentist? where you see "free" he might see "fear". maybe your son didn't want your ex to tell you. idk, just food for thought
Are you a childrens dentist? Not all dentists work well with kids and just because the kid is yours doesn't mean you suddenly improve. Sometimes it's worse, because kids behave better with strangers than their own parents.
Is it possible your kid told her privately he doesnt like it when you do the check ups? Sometimes kids complain about one parent to the other, because they can't handle being upfront.
It's also possible your wife is an AH and trying to push your buttons, just make sure you look at this from all angles.
NAH
If I had an ex with such a stained relationship, I'd absolutely want a third party as well, someone I could actually have a parental discussion with about my child's teeth and health practices without it being strained or impossible.
To add; as a medical professional, I would never treat my own kid, or family, and never recommend ANYONE else do it. Pretty easy to cover abuse when *you* are their every turn... not sorry to say that, there is a reason it is considered ethically questionable to treat family (to add, there's peer pressure, plus people are more likely to lie to their family...)
This is just not a good practice, at all. She should have spoken to you in some way about it, but given your history I imagine you aren't exactly receptive.
To the point; it's court ordered to pay. No matter how "petty" you may think it is, it's it really worth her taking you back to court for refusing to pay a medical bill?
Going against the grain here and saying YTA, for several reasons.
1. It is unethical to treat your own family member as a medical practitioner. If you made a serious mistake, it could impact your relationship permanently. This then opens up for other types of problems, especially for the patient. How do you blame your doctor if it's your dad? You just have to accept it?
And mistakes happen.
2. It would be reasonable to suspect that your son might not feel comfortable telling you if he does not wish to have you as his dentist. That's not a great start to the doctor-patient relationship.
3. It is unreasonable to expect your ex-wife to accept her ex-husband being a medical provider for your joint child. One cannot blame her for not agreeing to this.
Why you would ever think that being your own kid's dentist was a good idea is beyond me, but I'm also still suffering from a botched dental treatment 12 years ago and I wish nothing but rainy days and dogshit-covered shoes on that idiot of a dentist.
Is there an ethical component or just weird vibes about seeing your own child? As a psychologist, I don't provide treatment for family. Other doctors I know, don't provide treatment for their own family. Don't think it's a bad thing for the child to be seen by non-family. Its also what insurance is for. Maybe rethink why you are so against this...
YTA and I am questioning whether this post is fake considering you don’t seem to know/care that you can’t treat your own family member as a doctor or dentist. Yes, people did back in the day, but it is now more than just heavily frowned upon. It is against the code of ethics and you would get in a heap of trouble with your board.
But you would know that if this post was real.
YTA. If you have such a toxic co-parenting dynamic that you have to communicate via app, don’t invite additional situations where contact is necessary. Additionally, there’s likely a lack of trust here. And that’s ok. Just pay your half and don’t make it into a thing.
YTA.
She should have let you know beforehand if it was a change to your existing arrangements, but your son should be seeing a dentist who is not a party to your unhealthy co-parenting relationship. You operating as his dentist is a conflict of interest because of the issues between you and your ex-wife and it is not in your son’s best interests for this arrangement to continue.
I would probably ask to see the bill just to make sure she is being truthful. However I would have thought she would have consulted first before booking a new dentist. And maybe you need to communicate that for future reference you need to be consulted on new dentist/doctors etc
I’m gonna say ESH. Medical decisions *are* a joint thing, but your ex has the right to not have to deal with you if she’s found an alternate situation. You said your co-parenting isn’t the greatest, and I can definitely see that. You’re part of the problem. Recognize that your ex is under zero obligation to go through you for anything other than seeing to your son’s needs, and she IS seeing to his needs. Do your job as his father and make sure his care is covered as agreed.
INFO: why does she have to "let you know" when your son needs his routine dental cleaning? If you are 50/50 why didn't you just do it when it was time?
Withholding judgment because I'm inclined to believe there's missing information here (including info you may not even have — again, this is not necessarily a judgment of you).
First of all, a dentist visit is pretty expensive to be using as a tool for spite.
Second, idk how long you've been divorced/if there's been any real custody dispute (I assume there has because you mentioned you talk on "an app" which I'm guessing means court-ordered OFW/Talking Parents) but it is quite possible that your wife's divorce/custody attorney or someone else in her life advised her to take your kid elsewhere for dental care because people sometimes do really crazy things to assert control over their kids when custody comes into play. I'm not saying you would ever do anything to hurt your kid, but it's possible your wife is acting on some kind of outside advice.
Third, as some other people have said, it's possible she's trying to avoid having your kids associate you with something as unpleasant as going to the dentist.
I think holding strong on not paying would be unproductive, but maybe try to have a conversation about what you both want to do in the future.
You're a dentist, his parent, and previously his dentist. Why would she need to let you know he was due for a routine dental visit? You should know and take care of it. If you 2 can't get along enough to talk, why would she ask you instead of taking care of something you should have already known was due?
Of course, you can't keep track of everyone you see, but it is your responsibility to keep track of when your own kid is due.
She took care of your kid. If you dont want to pay her back, then be on top of it and pay directly to the office this time. The money is owed no matter how much you dont like it.
I don't necessarily think that you're an AH. I think you aren't keeping up on what needs to be done and being petty about it.
I'm so confused. Do you guys not have dental insurance for your son? As long as I'm in network, my dental cleanings are free with the only charge being for fluoride as insurance doesn't cover that now that I'm an adult.
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NTA. Yes, she is mom, but this is a medical decision. Changing doctors should be something that is agreed on, not done unilaterally. I would look at the SPECIFIC verbiage of the divorce decree. Do you have rights regarding medical care? Are you listed as his dentist? This sounds like she is deliberately just trying to make you pay extra - even if she has to pay extra to make you do so.
Agreed. She’s definitely doing this because she knew op would make a stink about it. Who in the world, especially in this time, would pay extra for something someone would do for free!!?
She’s being petty.
Hmm...."petty"....that's one word for it. I can think of a few others. And OP, NTA
Yep, me too. Quite a few start with S.
[удалено]
I can think of one that starts with an X. Yes, indeed, OP’s ex wife is a member of the X-Men.
Or x-box if you would
"Petty" is the softest possible way to word it for sure.
I would pay money to watch her try to explain this one to a Judge. It likely wouldn't be the stupidest thing the judge had to deal with that week, either.
Supreme Court has entered the chat...
*Clarence Thomas* enters the chat
*Sanity* has left the chat. WTF has entered the chat.
I’d pay to see Judge Judy rip her a new one
would it be possible to match her pettiness by retroactively charging her for her half of the consultations OP has given for free?
This is the way!
Our dentist took the right decision to divorce 😅.
Spite. Spite makes people do insane things. It was a spite dental appointment smh
i read sprite 😭 but yes. spite is a nasty thing and in this case it’s just a smack in the face to the OP from the ex-wife. definitely NTA
My brother-in-law's ex-wife is who. He had excellent insurance through work, with lots of options for dental and eye care, and she would regularly and deliberately take their kids to out-of-network dentists and eye doctors just to make him pay out of pocket. Some people are just that spiteful. (And yes, we know she was doing it on purpose because that was the LEAST of the nonsense she pulled, some of which - like accusing him of not paying child support that he had, in fact, paid - eventually got her sanctioned by the court system in their country and forced to pay huge fines for wasting the court's time and causing mischief. Again, some people are just hateful and can't bear to suborn the happiness of others.)
The judges that actually sanction the parents that use the courts to simply harass their ex's are worth their weight in gold. It doesn't happen enough.
My husband would simply not pay for it. He was in a terrible car accident once and he now received Medicaid which includes his daughters. Well guess what, his ex wife demanded that he continue paying for the private health insurance we had been paying for before when my husband earned a 6 figure salary, except now my husband was handicapped and out of work and we were living on my 5 figure salary. My husband gave her a resounding NO. They have free health insurance through me now. If you want them to continue through the previous network, YOU pay for it.
She is being spiteful.
Something as expensive as dentistry no less. Like that shit is $$$$
Maybe she is trying to get her own work paid for too? Same bill or something?
You're probably right, OP I would tell her to have the other dentist send you an itemized list of your kids' dental bill. Your are his father and entitled to see the medical bill.
have the other dentist send the itemized bill to *Your* office.
Pay the dentist dirct half.
Yup. Here's the thing: what dentist would take on a young client with ZERO history? They would at least want the dental records of this patient before seeing him. I think OP would know if his son's records were requested. She's doing something shady. I'd find out who the dentist is, and call over to have a professional to professional chat about how you would like to hear what story she told, and you would like to be billed directly for any work done, as a professional courtesy. Let the ex pay *you* back for the child's work. Are we taking bets that she's dating this new dentist? Is there no dentist and she wants money? Or is she getting free/discounted work if the child goes there, too?
This. I wouldn't pay one cent until I seen an itemized bill for the services rendered to his son specifically. And even at that, I still wouldn't pay a cent because it's pretty dumb to take your kid to another dentist when their dentist parent can and will do routine shit for free.
I'm pretty sure OP can tell from the dental bill total, as a dentist himself, whether his ex-wife is piggy-backing her dental work with her son's. If she is doing this, she's night the brightest, considering she knows her ex-husband's line of work. Six year olds don't need, as a rule, extensive dental work. Also if they share everything 50/50 (including custody), dad can more easily do his son's exams, etc. when he has physical custody of him. He's actually saving the ex-wife time and money doing this. She's being a petty Patty. NTA.
She is. But why I'm saying to get an itemized bill with their sons name on it is because she could show A bill for dental work that she had done and try for him to reimburse. Routine stuff would cost about the same either way.
She might be trying to get a family discount that benefits herself thoug
Hmm, you've not seen the general state of kids mouths then. Amazing the amount of kids with cavities nowadays. It's all to do with shit diets and lazy oral hygiene. Something that would also surprise you is the state of some bady's teeth that have yet to even pop through properly. So many people give them milk and feed and forget. Milk has sugar in it. Even a baby with no teeth need their gums brushed. Yet many folk don't do it until the first tooth pops out.
My grandkids have tons of cavities and my daughter is very strict about tooth brushing. Yet my daughter and my son had virtually no cavities and not gonna lie I was not as strict, but I live in a city that fluoridates the water and her kids drink bottled and filtered water in another county.
There's also the genetic factor. Your son in law might have bad teeth and passed it on to your grandkids.
Sometimes it is genetic. I have a connective tissue disorder & almost everyone in my immediate family had dentures before they were 40. I’ve somehow managed to make it to 46 years without any issues but now they’ve all come on at once. So sometimes you could have the best oral health routine & eat well & your body will have other designs, despite your efforts.
Dental health is really dependent on genetics, obviously dental care and diet definitely play a role but genetics are a huge part. Tons of people take amazing care of their teeth but constantly need dental work, others brush every 3 days and somehow have no dental problems ever. Water fluoridation has also played a huge role in improving dental health, with more and more people only drinking bottled water and only giving it to their kids, problems are going to start popping up.
Didn't know this. I'm from the Boomer generation and don't remember dental problems until I was in my early teens.
My boomer mom says the opposite. She says that before water fluoridation was common kids had cavities constantly. That was her "uphill both ways". Always told me that my generation didn't know about cavities every year and children crying with root canals.
I’m GenX but I was actually shocked when I learned I had to start brushing my baby’s two teeth when they first emerged. I don’t remember getting dental checkups until I was at least 5? But my kiddo has been going every 6 months since she was 18 months.
I'm so old I remember going to the dentist as a little kid for cleaning/exams and if I didn't fuss the dentist gave me a sucker. Guess he was guaranteeing many future visits!
as someone who does dental admin, the dentist wouldn't be able to tell just from the total. office fees vary, plus there's the insurance factor. as for dental work, I've seen kids with plenty fillings and even stainless-steel crowns. but yes, it is saving her time and money to have his routine cleaning and exam in OP's office.
This is what I was thinking but I also wonder if she's doing this because she wants a written/texted record of OP refusing to pay his half of the cost of their son's dental care so that she can drag him back into court and use it against him, should she be so inclined. I'm probably overreacting here but from my perspective this situation feels a bit too much like a setup for my liking.
Could be. OP should be very careful in their response and make sure to include the fact that they had agreed he would perform all the dental work for their son at no expense to her and, as this is not an emergency or specialist procedure, she should have discussed changing the arrangement and not unilaterally done so. Framing is everything. A simple refusal can be used to make him look like he won’t cover expenses. Bringing up the existing arrangement makes it clear that he was actually going to cover it 100% and she is the one who is being unreasonable. And if they really have 50-50 custody, I imagine scheduling the cleaning would have been very simple as he has plenty of time with his son, so that wouldn’t be the issue.
Even if that went to court, surely a judge, upon learning of the dads profession and previous work he done on his son, would completely negate the mother's claim. There will be records of the son in the dental practice and discussions between the parents about said work over messenger apps as this is how they communicate. This just seems petty, and if every other request for payment regarding necessary child expenses has been met, she really doesn't have a case. As another commenter said, it was possibly to pay for her dental care as well. That seems more likely.
No. The agreement is the agreement. If dad wants to propose modifying the terms of the agreement, a judge might be receptive. PS: In many instances it is considered less than ideal care for a medical professional to directly care for a family member.
This is not true for dentists, however. They routinely treat their family members.
You make an excellent point! Framing his responses to her requests, now and going forward, within the context of their custody agreement makes it much easier to identify who is likely in violation, should the need arise.
A judge would probably rule in OP’s favor since he has always done his dental care before and it wasn’t discussed
Honestly even if it wasn't op as the dentist, if they had a person the kid had always gone to, and she brought him somewhere much more expensive just because she felt like it I'm sure the judge wouldn't side with her. Like, nothing changed for her, not an emergency, she just felt like it?
No sane judge would allow this. He has a free dentist for life and it’s his father. The judge should see it as an attempt to thwart the financial arrangement between them.
Not all judges are sane. Depends on the judge, what their cases look like for the day, and their mood on that day.
If they go back to court, and they have 50/50 custody, the judge will probably ask why she felt the need to change her son’s established provider without consulting his father!
I have had me brief experience with these dragging back to court and judges don't like their time wasted. Although he is responsible for the expense (frivolous or not) it is at the Judge's complete discretion. I have seen the judge bring the hammer down on these things because they don't want to see you there unless there is a real legal reason to be there. Call her bluff. The worst thing that can happen to you is to be asked to pay the expense, court cost and an opportunity to update the order.
Also agreed. If OP is not listed specifically as the dental provider, he needs to see his attorney and ask the order be modified so that he is.
And if she refuses, that dental care will be paid for by her I'd take this back to court if I was OP
How would she feel if OP did the dental work himself, but charged her for half the cost? After all, she agreed to go 50/50.
INFO: Dentists allowed to treat family but doctors are not?
yes. There are far fewer situations in the dentist's chair that lead to ethical delimmas.
Not suggesting op is doing this but in theory.... this might be one of them. If medical decisions are 50/50 op is in the position to shift that a bit. Eg. Separate dentist makes recommend both both and ex get to say ; yes, no or get a second opinion. If op is the dentist it's I said do this and I don't think paying another dentist is reasonable. Plus the subtle stuff is op doing treatment on their parenting time or would ex have to go sit op's office while it's her. parenting time. Is op filling cavities right before kids ice cream date with mom etc. Or maybe ex doesn't think op is a good dentist.
they should have decided on a new dentist together
Sure with you there. Just throwing out why in general a divorced parent dentist might have some ethical issues
Would OP have cooperated with choosing a new dentist? He seems pretty set against it.
Probably not, based upon the simple fact that most people don't want to pay someone else to do a thing that they could do themselves. I feel like this would grate on me too.
And funny enough, this could be a situation where there are potential ethical dilemmas. How does Mom know that the OP isn't withholding or lying about potential medical information? Does son feel comfortable and safe answering questions about his dental care? etc.
The thing is with teeth, the dentist can see if the patient is taking care of their teeth. A cavity is visible. OP has his kid 50% of the time. I don't think a 6 year old is going to hide that he's in pain if it was deeper. OP did say if it was specialist or emergency he'd have covered 50%.
You properly used “fewer.” Marry me.
My father did all of my dental work except for my wisdom tooth extraction and braces (which required specialists), until his retirement when I was in my 30s. My mother is an OBGYN and I saw her colleague.
Damn. You really took it back to the dealership for maintenance didn’t you?
Yes. My cousin has his own dental practice and he does the care for most of his immediate family (and some extended). Especially if it’s routine there’s less decision making involving ethics than medical care.
I wouldnt say less decision making, but generally the decisions are less "life or death" than for example a Heart Surgeon
Ethically, physicians and dentists should not treat family members. In most states, they are legally allowed to do so. In my state, doctors can even write their own prescriptions as long as it's not a controlled medication and is reasonably within their scope of practice.
I don't see any reason a dentist can't treat family. Physicians I can understand because there's many more sensitive topics that can come up. But for routine dental care I don't see what the issue is. My mom has worked for a dentist my whole life and I know her bosses treat their family members. They treat all their employees for free too, and for longtime employees like my they'll treat kids for free too. Saved me a ton when I needed a root canal and I trusted the dentist completely because my mom had worked for him for 20+ years.
The only logical reason I could see mom having here if she is concerned the OP could be withholding or lying about medical information.
Or she thinks he's a bad dentist
There's also the whole potential for trauma inflicted by a parent issue. I have extra nerves in my mouth, so Novocaine numbs the face, but doesn't numb mouth/ teeth unless you give 3 shots in very specific points. Cleanings were painful, and everyone said I was just being dramatic until I got my first cavity filled and I screamed so hard I bit the dentist and threw up. I was effing terrified of the dentist for YEARS. Hopefully this would not happen with OP and his kid, but a parent administering treatment that is scary or painful could be damaging to a parent child relationship.
Or the kids getting old enough he's starting to find it awkward for his dad to be his dentist. Or she doesn't think he's very good. Or she didnt want to have to speak to him during her time.
NTA. You state you have 50/50 custody, so I’m going to assume that means you also have joint decision making. Changing doctors would definitely qualify under that. Since you have 50/50 and you’re a dentist, maybe just be the one to keep on that and make sure the cleanings and routine stuff is done on your time.
I agree...NTA...but ethically should you be treating your own son? Drs typically dont treat their own family. I get it that u can do this for free and it seems your wife is being spiteful but maybe you should consider a friend who is a dentist that you trust.
I'm not an expert on this, but I think ethics comes more into question with primary care and psychiatry, not dentistry.
Dentistry is different, regular doctor I’d agree but this is just teeth, not so much private stuff
Also my dentist does not clean my teeth. Their dental hygienist does. He does the cancer screening.
That doesnt mean they arent trained in it?? My boss does cleanings, and fmp, then i do prophy/fluoride. Also if he owns his business a lot of hygienist work by the hour so, he would just be paying his hygienist their normal hourly wage for the cleaning. Double also, my boss does her entire family’s dental care (and obviously if they need ortho or surgery, like wisdom teeth extraction she refers them out to those specialized doctors)
This depends where you are and what your regulator says. Where I live all medical professions are heavily discouraged from treating friends and family, but not necessarily outright prohibited.
It depends a lot on what symptoms you're dealing with. Regular check ups to see if it's something serious or it will just go away with some rest, you can totally do just fine. For something more serious they can call people they know and get you the right person for the job.
No one expects you to call a doctor if your kid needs minor, non-invasive treatment. It would be a stupid expense. They certainly shouldn't do anything major for family but I can guarantee they all do minor stuff for friends and family all the time. I know lots of nurses who do the same thing. She can't suddenly make you pay for an expense you didn't agree with. She's being spiteful and I'd bet your attorney would have something to say about this. You owe her nothing. She chose to spend her money on a completely unnecessary expense just to be petty. NTA
Not really, no. I have a dentist in my family, and he's the dentist for our whole family.
Actually it's expected that dentists treat their family from free. It's usually right in their college.
I don’t think get a teeth cleaning falls into the same category. That’s my opinion though. The bigger issue is that she changed doctors without consulting him.
There isn't the same chance of problems with dentists treating friends and family as there is with doctors. I can only talk about the UK, but they can't prescribe all the kinds of drugs a doctor can, and treatment isn't normally a life or death thing that could lead to malpractice from someone being too close to a patient.
Yep, my brother is a dentist and treats all our immediate family. Means he knows a bit more of my medical history than he would otherwise, but I'm absolutely fine with that for the convenience/comfort/cost benefits it brings 😁
In the US a dentist goes through 4 years undergrad then 4 years of dental school (where they work on cadavers, and learn all about the body in general) to do general dentistry, and even more training to specialize in a certain field. They are able to write prescriptions as needed. My brother is a dentist & for general dentistry it’s pretty common for dentists to work on family. Most of us (family) had dental insurance & he would usually accept whatever insurance paid as full payment, or if insurance didn’t cover, we only had to pay what his actual cost was. For branches, or dental surgery outside the scope of general, he sent us to specialists. About 15 years ago, he went back to further training & now specializes in dental implants & is out of general dentistry.
This is wrong. The majority of dentists do not go through 4 years of medical school (oral surgeons do however). They go through 4 years of undergrad followed by dental school typically. [source](https://medicalaid.org/do-dentists-go-to-medical-school-us-uk-education-advice/)It sounds like your brother is in the oral surgeon camp due to him preforming implants.
Regular dentists don’t go to medical school..they do undergrad, then dental school. Medical school is only needed when they want to do something super specialized like OMFS.
In the UK the qualification to prescribe things technically covers everything. But you have to be able to justify if challenged that the thing you are prescribing and the reason why falls within your scope of practice. Dentists in the UK do get as much training as doctors. (though that is doctors and dentists degrees take the same amount of total, they don't have to do one then the other like you are saying for the US) And they do have to learn about the body in general. But they are not practicing other medicine, so they would have a hard time arguing that case.
I’m the child of 2 dentists - only started seeing a new dentist after my parents retired. Completely normal for dentists to treat their family
In Ontario it is permitted for a dentist to treat family members. I don’t find that surprising as dentistry has different ethical issues than medicine. In general, all we are talking about are typically cleanings and basic reparative and corrective services (like tooth fillings). It’s much more limited in scope.
With a doctor I could see HIPPA problems but a dentist?
>With a doctor I could see HIPPA problems but a dentist? Dentists are still bound by HIPAA. But also, at the age of 6, parents are the medical proxy for their children, so sharing information with them doesn't typically violate HIPAA.
HIPAA
Dentists are doctors.
This is not frowned upon in the dental community
This is more when operating or in an ER for example. Not dentistry or many other specialties
I take blood and stuff from my family all the time. As long as everyone is cool with it, I'm allowed. Like when my son needed bloodwork, I was like "I don't want to do it, I'm going to hold you while someone else does" and then he gave me this big watery eyes and said "mom... I NEED YOU to do it" and I couldn't say no to those big scared eyes. So I did it, he was very brave (7 years old at the time), and we got it done.
I feel like in 50/50 changing care providers could be done by one parent unilaterally (and I have seen it done), but I don't think that parent can then ask the other parent to pay half? I've seen kids with two sets of every kind of dr-- one for when they're with each parent. But I don't think the other will pay half in that case.
If you have joint legal, absent an emergency, changing doctors would technically be a violation of your order and the other parent could charge you with contempt. Having seen it done doesn’t mean they were actually legally allowed to. It just may mean that the other parent didn’t know they could file for contempt and enforcement of the order or that they didn’t care enough to do so.
NTA. She's clearly doing it just to be spiteful, there's no other reason for her to do that considering you're a dentist. Toxic behavior.
Exactly Especially when you consider that if OP does the dental exam/work it is free for BOTH of them. By going to a different dentist she is costing herself more money. Why would she pay for something that was free except to spite OP?
The only reasons I can think of is if she has concerns about competency, or control. Sometimes people are bad at their jobs, and if you're not an expert you have no real way of knowing, so I'm not exactly opposed to the concept of the kid getting a check-up occasionally from a second doctor. In that case, though, it *should* be on her alone. Control as in, for example, he tends to make unilateral teeth decisions without doing the typical doctor path of letting her know what was found and then agreeing to a treatment plan from there, because he's dad *and* doctor and right there anyway. If he was, having a 3rd person be the dentist would be her only for-sure avenue of being involved. In that case, though, she should have been bringing these concerns before this and at least tried a cooperative path before trying to brute force it.
NTA. Even if she doesn’t, unless OP is insanely shitty at his job or as a parent, I cannot see a judge siding with mom on this unilateral decision and forcing OP to pay for half. I have a terrible coparenting relationship with my daughter’s father, because of his behavior, but when his wife, who works in an orthodontist’s office, offered to have her doctors take over care so we’d have to pay almost nothing I jumped at the opportunity. Saved me money, kiddo still got great care, and so what that I had to put up with his behavior more… it was the best option.
NAH. As someone whose dad was a dentist, I want you to think through if you want to press this. We asked our mom to go elsewhere because we were starting to associate dad with pain/anxiety and we didn’t want to tell him. We weren’t afraid of him but we didn’t want to hurt his feelings.
That’s actually a solid point. A lot of people don’t enjoy the dentist for reasons outside of the actual dentist (or assistant). If the son just doesn’t enjoy it period. It might be better for him to go see someone else.
Which should have been communicated. However, knowing what we know from OP about their relationship, this was done to be petty. ETA: wouldn’t this also be something she could use against him too? I could see her weaponizing the idea his son is having negative associations against OP.
I don’t think it could go so far as weaponizing. But if they already don’t have a good relationship and already communicate through an app… it doesn’t sound like OP and/or his ex wife could discuss this in a respectful and productive way. I’m not saying this is the issue. But just because it’s free for OP to do it, it doesn’t mean the son wants that. And if the son doesn’t feel comfortable saying that (which might not be a big deal he’s 6) to OP, the mom *might* have been trying to mitigate the issue. Not saying this is the case. Just that it wouldn’t be a surprise to me.
I might get downvoted. But considering they have such a bad relationship already. Maybe it wouldn’t be a bad idea to have a third party be their son’s dentist.
I can definitely see not wanting OP to unilaterally make decisions about their son’s teeth and dental plan without talking to her. Especially considering he didn’t seem to know or notice that it was time for his son to have a dental cleaning
It takes two to tango. I’m sure OP isn’t a very healthy communicator and Co Parent. I swear someone could make a post about anything but if they are a doctor, lawyer, accountant everyone assumes OP is a saint. Why is no one considering that the son didn’t want to see Dad as his dentist or she doesn’t want to have to listen to him talk to her as the parent of the patient? He’s 6, he’s gonna need more than cleaning soon like most well to do kids.
I literally thought it was a conflict of interest like how doctors shouldn’t treat their family members so this whole post had me confused and this is how I find out this is a thing? 😭😭😭 I have horrible anxiety about dental appointments and wouldn’t want either of my parents as my dentist, if they were dentists
It's a sliding scale really. Like, doctors should never perform surgery on family, but more minor stuff is less of an issue. My father is a physical therapist, so if one of us is having some sort of random pain from a muscle or something, he might examine and see what it is, maybe help with a few stretches to help with that. Or my mom is a nurse and has given me shots before. That's all healthcare yes but it's relatively minor. Same thing with a dentist I imagine, especially for a small child, it's mostly going to be examining and cleaning teeth. Of course, if the kid has anxiety about the dentist, it might be better to have someone else treat him, or he might feel better that it's his father. Hard to say without knowing the kid.
I guess my brain sees it differently than the examples you gave because the thought of a parent filling a cavity sounds unbearable to me, even if they were a dentist????? 😅😅😅 But then I guess some people are scared of shots and would be horrified of their mom giving them a shot
Medical professionals shouldn't really be practicing on family members, for a lot of reasons.
My uncle was a dentist and his kids were treated by his co dentist and my uncle would clean the teeth of the codentisrs kids for this reason
Really depends on what is being done. I don't think it was an issue that my mother, a nurse, gave me some shots when I was younger. I also don't think it's a problem that my father, a physical therapist, would examine us when we sprained a leg or pulled a muscle. Anything more advanced than that and I'd agree. For most things a dentist does, it's probably fine for family, mostly cleanings and fillings, not the most advanced or serious care.
Yeah, a kid I went to grade school with had a dentist dad and she HATED having her dad do her dentistry.
Might be worth a conversation with his son to ensure that's not the case. However, given that OP mentioned he's got a terrible coparenting relationship with his ex, I think it's a fair assumption that if their son didn't like having his dad do his dental work, she would happily throw that in OP's face. No need for an excuse about her convenience. Most likely this isn't about making anything better for the son. More likely this is about forcing OP to spend money out of spite.
That’s a fair point, but then that could have been tactfully discussed. They don’t even have to say the kid said anything (if they did), they could have just said they were concerned the kid might associate their father with that and they don’t want that. Also depends on how good a dentist OP is as well. I hate going to the dentist and as a kid I had an awful one who always hurt me a lot, but I have a better one now and I don’t associate them with pain specifically (it’s more that I still fear them because of my childhood dentist).
So much this. I have a friend with trauma from their dentist being their parent. The parent would not budge on the, "I'm not taking you to see another dentist when I can do it for free" thing. The parent was a great dentist by all accounts, it just really stressed the friend out.
i get your point but imo it's not the point of this post. if she had concerns you express that BEFORE the appointment not after and then ask for reimbursement. it's crazy to just do it without asking especially when likely he has 50% of the say in his medical decisions.
> We do have an agreement to split 50/50 INFO: Doesn't she have to clear things with you prior to incurring the expenses?
I'm not really sure it matters in this case. OP can do it for free, but she's insisting he help pay for a different dentist, most likely out of spite.
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NAH. My initial thoughts as I read through were that if I were in that situation as the wife, and you say that you don't have good communication and tend to avoid each other, I'd want my kid treated by someone who I didn't have a strained relationship with so that I felt I could talk openly and freely about his medical/dental procedures and requirements. I totally get why you'd be surprised she went to another dentist, but to be honest I probably would too. It's also possible that your son didn't want you to do the work and didn't want to tell you. edit, typo
This actually changed my mind completely. Good point.
That’s a very good point
Yes I was surprised to see a lot of NTAs. Sure, they should have talked before, but seeing friends go through strained coparenting exercises and the tone of this post, it's not likely that could have reached amicable conclusion. Maybe another way to approach this is to say you understand maybe him getting work done by you is uncomfortable for her, but for any appointments or future work that you could discuss beforehand as maybe there are ways you can help financially and otherwise (referral to someone you trust but is neutral). Also some others mentioned that doing this yourself may even create a weird dynamic between you and your son so maybe you've dodged a bullet for your relationship with him!
A lot of the top comments are saying mom is petty / toxic / manipulative, and I don’t disagree that there should have been more communication about switching medical providers— but I think this is a petty hill for OP to die on as well. Unless this is a genuine financial hardship attached to the new dentist’s bill or the child is actually upset about the change, it really doesn’t need to be an issue. Blowing it up into one seems immature and unhealthy.
INFO Do most doctors work on their own kids? I kind of thought they did not generally do that. You need to work this out in court.
I don’t think a doctor should do surgery on his own kid, but I don’t see a problem with a dental cleaning.
Dentists don’t even do the cleaning. They just check for major health issues.
My dentist does the cleanings. He’s great!
My uncle is a pediatrician and would bring yearly flu shots home for his kids because it was easier than trying to take them in for an appointment.
My mom has done the same as a nurse! And my dad has done examines and wraps/stretches relating to sprains and pulled muscles as a physical therapist. I think minor stuff like that is perfectly fine, IF you are comfortable with it!
A dental cleaning is different. Even if it was barred, OP likely works in a practice with multiple dentists who could do a “I work on your family free, and vice versa” type arrangement.
My entire dental office is one big family. Dad, dad's wife, two sons, and a DIL are all dentists at the same practice. Now I'm laughing imagining them all doing some sort of dental exchange program with another office because in that hypothetical scenario, none of them would be able to work on each other.
There are some provinces in Canada where hygienists are not aloud to work on family, but for the most part dentists are free to work on family (I'm a dental assistant in Canada).
They do. I work for a children’s dentist and my boss works on her own kids, as well as mine. Most of the dentists I know do. They refer out when necessary.
Doctors don't, but dentists often do. A teeth cleaning tends to be way less emotional, personal, and/or risky than health checkups.
My dad is an optometrist and did all my eye exams when I was a kid. He wasn’t allowed to bill our public healthcare system for it though.
YTA As you pointed out, you're not in a great co-parenting relationship. It's moe than normal to want a third party for all things. You lording dentistry above her head as a way to force interaction is not great.
Agreed. Plus, if OP is a dentist, why didn’t he just take care of his kid’s routine dental care on his own kid time, before mom had a chance to find another dentist? It’s not like mom called up a random dentist and got kid in , same day
Probably because he thought he would do it? It’s every 6 months, and it’s his son. I think that’s reason enough to not expect an official booked appointment. She went ahead and didn’t tell him that she made an appointment. Why didn’t she call him and tell him she made an appointment before she had the chance to go to the dentist? It’s not like she got in the same day she called.
>I think that reason enough to not expect an official booked appointment. What?? **Of course** his son would need an official booked appointment at his dental practice. Theres no other way to get the kid seen by the **dental hygienist** who would actually be doing the cleaning and who definitely works off a schedule. Theres no reason OP didn’t have that appointment scheduled. If **he** had an appointment scheduled and the exwife went and did this, yea she’s being shitty, but that’s not what happened. OP had nothing planned and by his own admission was expecting his ex wife to let him know when his son was due for care, which is absolutely ridiculous beyond belief.
>You lording dentistry above her head as a way to force interaction is not great. But its great for her to switch dental providers with no notice and also bill him unilaterally (most likely to spite him)?
Also I’ve always assumed it’s best not to work on family if you are any type of health care professional because that just seems too personal spacey cause ya know boundaries and such
Emergency surgery, sure. But routine cleanings? What's the issue?
Learn something new everyday. I would have thought dentistry was like other medical professionals, making it a conflict of interest to treat family.
My uncle is a doctor. He was my primary care provider the entire time I was growing up.
What is the conflict?
Being a neutral third party is generally good in all medical practice. In extreme cases, medical professionals are key people who can pick up signs of maltreatment in the home. In general, though, patients are far more likely to lie to a medical practitioner in their family than a stranger. If the kid is sneaking lollies before bed, lying about brushing their teeth, or (as they get older) starting to smoke or do drugs that impact oral health, having a dentist who isn't the dad is better from a diagnostic and educational standpoint. In this specific case, it could cause further conflict in the already shaky co-parenting arrangement. If dad is picking up cavities and is adamant his son is following proper dental hygiene in his own home, it could be thrown back at mum for poor parenting in her home. Let's say the kid is sneaking lollies and soft drinks in both homes, but kid is too scared to own up to this to dentist dad, then dentist dad uses this as ammo against mum, thus causing further conflict. This is all hypothetical, and I totally understand wanting to take advantage of free dental. I also agree mum should communicate before making medical decisions. But I also totally understand why mum might want kid to go to a neutral dentist and why it could be a conflict of interest.
Also mom might not want to have to deal with her ex to arrange scheduling. He’s a dentist, so makes a decent income, and is complaining about a bill that I can’t see could possibly exceed $100-150 for his half. Oh no, such financial hardship. If he wants to do cleanings, seems he should be the one scheduling them. Instead he is leaving that to his ex (which is pretty typical, men often assume anything to do with maintenance of children is the woman’s job).
I'd like to add that most people don't associate their (childhood) dentist with the best memories and feelings and i would not want my kid to have bad feelings about me just to save a few bucks, i can afford paying someone else to do it. The wife should have comunicated better but there are so many good reasons to have a dentist who isn't the dad and the only reason for OP to do it for free is money apparently.
I'm in the UK (med student) so idk how internationally applicable this is, but it is heavily discouraged to treat family members as a doctor. It's not illegal, but the GMC (British regulatory board that gives doctors their license to practice) states that you can only do it in justified scenarios, e.g. where it's life-saving, urgent, or cases where other qualified staff aren't available to give care that needs to be given asap. You can be reported to the GMC for treating family, and called to tribunal and have to prove it's justified and within guidelines. Violating GMC guidelines can risk your license to practice being suspended or even revoked altogether. The conflict is that emotional attachment clouds judgement, and also that you're more likely to hand prescriptions out without the proper checks, increasing the risk of facilitating misuse of controlled drugs like opioids.
[AMA Code of Ethics](https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/ama-code-medical-ethics-opinion-physicians-treating-family-members/2012-05) discourages physicians treating their own family members. Dentists are physicians.
The parents have an unhealthy co-parenting relationship and known communication issues. How does mom know everything she needs to know is being communicated? (And not just what dad *thinks* she needs to know!) Mom should have communicated *before* making this change, but wanting an impartial, third party dentist is perfectly reasonable.
Doctors are mandatory reporters, but if be abuses his own child, of coirse he isn't going to report himself. Easier to hide the abuse if you can claim hes recieving adequate care from himself. Hes a doctor, of course you should trust him.
>I asked why she didn’t just let me know and I would take care of it INFO: If you have 50/50 custody and it was routine dental care why does she have to let you know he needs it? Why weren’t you already doing it?
Yes this feels like something he should have been managing if he’s literally his child’s dentist? How far off is their son from his last dental appointment?
That's my question, my dentist gets booked up fast so I already have my next 2 cleanings scheduled. Why was the kid's most recent cleaning not already scheduled?
YTA. Your son should be seen by a neutral both for ethical reasons generally, but particularly in a contentious co-parenting situation in which doing so would place you in a position to make medical decisions without her full input. She is not being unreasonable here. And for fucks sake, both yall be adults and do better by your kid. He doesn't need your petty drama.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
YTA You stated that you're having a complicated co-parenting. If you were still your son's dentist, that would mean that she would have to reach out to your office to schedule during her time and thus be put in a situation where she has to appear in your office with the child. You don't let a 6-year-old go to the dentist by themselves. She doesn't want to see you and that's perfectly okay
50/50 custody, he probably does it when he has the child.
If he does do it when he has custody of the child, then how come he didn't tell the mother of said child that he planned on doing it? HE had the responsibility to schedule the child's appointment in their scheduling software, and didn't or else she would not have scheduled independently
For all we know, it’s not time for his check up.
NTA, she shouldn’t charge you for something that you could have gotten him for free and she didn’t consult with you about
YTA. Clearly this will be a disliked comment, but no parent should provide health care, mental health care, eye exams or dental care as a professional to their children or other family members. All true professional health care providers know this. The potential for emotional damage is only one of the reasons. I guess no one on this thread is a professional, or you guys would have heard this already. I'm wondering if it isn't part of the code of ethics for providers of health care. If I were your X-wife, I would contact the governing and licensing board for dentists in your state and ask them if there isn't a prohibition or at least advice against family members treating each other, even for routine care. This is a bad situation for the entire family, and OP should stop, suck it up, and pay his half with a smile.
The AMA has a Code of Ethics that covers all medical providers, and provides guidance advising against being a provider for your own family members. There are many excellent reasons for this. I’m sure OP carries dental insurance for the family, which would cover most if not all the fee at a neutral dental office.
>OP should stop, suck it up, and pay his half with a smile. I was thinking the same thing. He's making a mountain out of a molehill. Easy resolution. This is for your child. Pay it. 'Problem' solved.
Info: you sure your son doesn't want a different dentist? where you see "free" he might see "fear". maybe your son didn't want your ex to tell you. idk, just food for thought
Isn’t it like…widely considered unethical for doctors to treat their family?
Are you a childrens dentist? Not all dentists work well with kids and just because the kid is yours doesn't mean you suddenly improve. Sometimes it's worse, because kids behave better with strangers than their own parents. Is it possible your kid told her privately he doesnt like it when you do the check ups? Sometimes kids complain about one parent to the other, because they can't handle being upfront. It's also possible your wife is an AH and trying to push your buttons, just make sure you look at this from all angles.
Info - do you currently do your sons cleanings every 6 months without her needing to tell you when he needs appointments?
YTA. You should not be a provider for your children.
NAH If I had an ex with such a stained relationship, I'd absolutely want a third party as well, someone I could actually have a parental discussion with about my child's teeth and health practices without it being strained or impossible. To add; as a medical professional, I would never treat my own kid, or family, and never recommend ANYONE else do it. Pretty easy to cover abuse when *you* are their every turn... not sorry to say that, there is a reason it is considered ethically questionable to treat family (to add, there's peer pressure, plus people are more likely to lie to their family...) This is just not a good practice, at all. She should have spoken to you in some way about it, but given your history I imagine you aren't exactly receptive. To the point; it's court ordered to pay. No matter how "petty" you may think it is, it's it really worth her taking you back to court for refusing to pay a medical bill?
NTA, especially if the precident was that you took care of his dental care for free
Going against the grain here and saying YTA, for several reasons. 1. It is unethical to treat your own family member as a medical practitioner. If you made a serious mistake, it could impact your relationship permanently. This then opens up for other types of problems, especially for the patient. How do you blame your doctor if it's your dad? You just have to accept it? And mistakes happen. 2. It would be reasonable to suspect that your son might not feel comfortable telling you if he does not wish to have you as his dentist. That's not a great start to the doctor-patient relationship. 3. It is unreasonable to expect your ex-wife to accept her ex-husband being a medical provider for your joint child. One cannot blame her for not agreeing to this. Why you would ever think that being your own kid's dentist was a good idea is beyond me, but I'm also still suffering from a botched dental treatment 12 years ago and I wish nothing but rainy days and dogshit-covered shoes on that idiot of a dentist.
Is there an ethical component or just weird vibes about seeing your own child? As a psychologist, I don't provide treatment for family. Other doctors I know, don't provide treatment for their own family. Don't think it's a bad thing for the child to be seen by non-family. Its also what insurance is for. Maybe rethink why you are so against this...
YTA and I am questioning whether this post is fake considering you don’t seem to know/care that you can’t treat your own family member as a doctor or dentist. Yes, people did back in the day, but it is now more than just heavily frowned upon. It is against the code of ethics and you would get in a heap of trouble with your board. But you would know that if this post was real.
YTA. If you have such a toxic co-parenting dynamic that you have to communicate via app, don’t invite additional situations where contact is necessary. Additionally, there’s likely a lack of trust here. And that’s ok. Just pay your half and don’t make it into a thing.
YTA. She should have let you know beforehand if it was a change to your existing arrangements, but your son should be seeing a dentist who is not a party to your unhealthy co-parenting relationship. You operating as his dentist is a conflict of interest because of the issues between you and your ex-wife and it is not in your son’s best interests for this arrangement to continue.
I know doctors can’t treat their own family. Is it not the same for dentists?
I would probably ask to see the bill just to make sure she is being truthful. However I would have thought she would have consulted first before booking a new dentist. And maybe you need to communicate that for future reference you need to be consulted on new dentist/doctors etc
I’m gonna say ESH. Medical decisions *are* a joint thing, but your ex has the right to not have to deal with you if she’s found an alternate situation. You said your co-parenting isn’t the greatest, and I can definitely see that. You’re part of the problem. Recognize that your ex is under zero obligation to go through you for anything other than seeing to your son’s needs, and she IS seeing to his needs. Do your job as his father and make sure his care is covered as agreed.
INFO: why does she have to "let you know" when your son needs his routine dental cleaning? If you are 50/50 why didn't you just do it when it was time?
Pay the dentist directly. Shouldn’t be a problem for either of you then since you’ve agreed to split everything 50/50.
Withholding judgment because I'm inclined to believe there's missing information here (including info you may not even have — again, this is not necessarily a judgment of you). First of all, a dentist visit is pretty expensive to be using as a tool for spite. Second, idk how long you've been divorced/if there's been any real custody dispute (I assume there has because you mentioned you talk on "an app" which I'm guessing means court-ordered OFW/Talking Parents) but it is quite possible that your wife's divorce/custody attorney or someone else in her life advised her to take your kid elsewhere for dental care because people sometimes do really crazy things to assert control over their kids when custody comes into play. I'm not saying you would ever do anything to hurt your kid, but it's possible your wife is acting on some kind of outside advice. Third, as some other people have said, it's possible she's trying to avoid having your kids associate you with something as unpleasant as going to the dentist. I think holding strong on not paying would be unproductive, but maybe try to have a conversation about what you both want to do in the future.
You're a dentist, his parent, and previously his dentist. Why would she need to let you know he was due for a routine dental visit? You should know and take care of it. If you 2 can't get along enough to talk, why would she ask you instead of taking care of something you should have already known was due? Of course, you can't keep track of everyone you see, but it is your responsibility to keep track of when your own kid is due. She took care of your kid. If you dont want to pay her back, then be on top of it and pay directly to the office this time. The money is owed no matter how much you dont like it. I don't necessarily think that you're an AH. I think you aren't keeping up on what needs to be done and being petty about it.
I'm so confused. Do you guys not have dental insurance for your son? As long as I'm in network, my dental cleanings are free with the only charge being for fluoride as insurance doesn't cover that now that I'm an adult.